MarioWiki:Proposals

Current time: Sunday, November 24th, 01:15 GMT

Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken. Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below). Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so. All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options. For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
2. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. While only autoconfirmed users can comment on proposals, anyone is free to comment on talk page proposals.
3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
   • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
   • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
   • Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
15. After a proposal or talk page proposal passes, it is added to the corresponding list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

---

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 14 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

---

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

• Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch) (discuss) Deadline: November 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Merge False Character and the Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams to List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses (discuss) Deadline: December 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)

Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)

^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.

Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)

Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)

Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)

Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 3, 2024)

Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)

Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)

Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)

Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)

Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)

^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.

Remove identifiers for Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf) and Ike (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!), Starluxe (ended November 21, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)

Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)

Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)

Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)

Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)

Merge Spiked Thwomp with Thwomp, Blinker (ended November 2, 2024)

Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)

Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)

Create articles for "Ashita ni Nattara" and "Banana Tengoku" or list them in List of Donkey Kong Country (television series) songs, Starluxe (ended November 23, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Determine a minimum number of glitches in a game to warrant a separate list article

I've noticed some strange discrepancies regarding how glitches are handled when a game has only 3 or 4 of them documented here. Wario Land 4 has a separate article for its 3 glitches (List of Wario Land 4 glitches), but every other game with 3 glitches simply has those glitches merged with the game's page. Specifically, Mario vs. Donkey Kong, Super Mario Strikers, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), and, most glaringly, Wario Land 3 have sections for glitches rather than separate lists.

More complicated is figuring out how to deal with games with 4 glitches. Of the 6 games with 4 documented glitches:

• 4 of them have glitches merged into the main article: Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, Donkey Kong Land, Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle
• 2 of them have separate "List of glitches" articles: Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem!, Super Mario Advance

I put forward this proposal to determine a minimum number of glitches for the creation of "List of glitches" articles. That way, there is consistency between games with the same number of documented glitches. Additionally, if new glitches are documented later that brings the total number over this minimum, a new page can easily be created without the need for a proposal, as the editor can cite this proposal.

Option 1

The minimum number of glitches should be 3. "List of glitches" pages would be created for Mario vs. Donkey Kong, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), and Wario Land 3 to match that of Wario Land 4.

Option 2

The minimum number of glitches should be 4. List of Wario Land 4 glitches would be deleted and its glitches merged into the main game's article. "List of glitches" pages would be created for Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, Donkey Kong Land, and Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle.

Option 3

The minimum number of glitches should be 5. List of Wario Land 4 glitches, List of Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem! glitches, and List of Super Mario Advance glitches would be deleted, with the glitches merged into each game's main article.

Do nothing

There should be no concrete minimum, and whether glitches should be split or not should be discussed on a game-by-game basis.

I could continue with 6, 7, etc., but I feel once this point is reached there is enough to warrant separate "List of glitches" articles, especially since game articles are typically long and images are usually needed to showcase glitches, taking up more space.

Proposer: Technetium (talk)
Deadline: August 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 2

1. Technetium (talk) Second choice.

Option 3

1. Technetium (talk) First choice. I am a bit torn between Options 2 and 3, but I prefer this one as I feel 4 glitches can easily fit on a game's page, as seen with the examples above.
2. Hewer (talk) I don't particularly mind what the minimum number of glitches is, but I agree that there should be a minimum in order to have some more consistency, and a smaller minimum may cause unnecessary splits of small glitch lists, so I'll go for this option.
3. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
4. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
5. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all. (I really love glitches, so I'm glad this is being settled.)
6. Jazama (talk) Per all

Comments

From what I can tell, articles on this wiki are usually split based on size, not the number of headings. It's why List of Fortune Street quotes is split into Dragon Quest characters (A-J / K-Z) and Super Mario characters (A-M / N-Z) and why the number of headings in these articles is inconsistent. I think it'd be weird to split lists of glitches based strictly on the number of sections rather than the amount of text since that could lead to very short articles that only list a few very minor glitches that can be described in just a few sentences. Dive Rocket Launcher 22:50, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, I'm aware of that. It just feels different here because glitch descriptions tend to be around the same length. If you look at the examples I discussed in the proposal, you'll find there really isn't a noticeable size difference between the pages that have their glitches merged vs separate. Truth be told, I was originally going to just make a talk page proposal to merge List of Wario Land 4 glitches, but the discrepancies with the pages with 4 glitches led to me coming up with this. I'd be happy to hear anyone else's ideas on how to make things more consistent, because the way things are currently is frankly bugging me. --Technetium (talk) 23:02, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

New features

Add the Thanks extension

The Thanks extension is a way to personally thank a contributor without sending them a message directly. It's a kind gesture to show that you appreciate certain edits from someone, such as if they add more content to an article you made or fix grammatical errors. This saves the effort of having to manually message your appreciation if you wanted to give a quick Thanks to the user, though this proposal in no way seeks to replace that; it provides another option for thanking a user.

However, a requirement to installing Thanks is the Echo extension, which is used by Wikipedia, MediaWiki, and many other major wikis. The Echo extension had embedded features of its own, and it could get annoying for some if it gives a message for every 100, 200, 500, or so milestone edits that someone makes (even though it is possible that some may want to keep track of their milestones). Point is, if the Thanks extension is allowed, be wary of changes that the Echo extension would bring. The echo notification also replaces the new message box with a new messages notification at the top right of the screen. Perhaps it is possible to disable some of the default features of Echo, but the point is that this proposal is mainly about allowing Thanks.

On a sidenote, if this passes, the courtesy policy will be updated to prohibit spamming the use of it for consecutive edits made by a user or someone who personally does not wish to have their edits thanked.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: August 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.
2. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
3. Mario shroom (talk) As a Wikipedia editor, I support.
4. Ray Trace (talk) Greenlit by Steve, and I massively support this.
5. Sparks (talk) Yes! The element of kindness (AKA Fluttershy) in Mario Wiki form. I support! Per all.
6. Nintendo101 (talk) Wonderful idea.
7. YoYo (talk) sure, there's no harm in this
8. Mario (talk) Validation is always nice.
9. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) I absolutely love to thank people for kindnesses, especially because so many people have helped me in the past! And this would make it so much easier. I totally support this, and who cares about the side effects-- all I want is to be able to spread kindness, no matter what the cost.
10. Dine2017 (talk) This would be a great way to get feedback for your edits. It would also bring the editing experience closer to Wikimedia wikis.

Oppose

1. SeanWheeler (talk) No thank you.

Comments

I've always wanted this for years now, but I feel this sort of thing requires at least confirming with Steve first. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:27, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Mario Maybe someone could ask him. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:39, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Mario I asked on his talk page, and the proposal is allowed. Super Mario RPG (talk) 00:09, August 17, 2024 (EDT)

Removals

Remove lists of Poké Ball and stage-exclusive Pokémon on Smash Bros. game pages and allow each Poké Ball Pokémon only one representative artwork/screenshot

This proposal's a short one because there's not much to say about it. The Poké Ball Pokémon section of the List of SSB series items page is cluttered enough. They have little to no relation to Super Mario other than their interactivity with Super Mario fighters, but that goes for all fighters in general (that's my understanding as to why the list pages exist). A while ago, there was a majority consensus of over 20 users who agreed to delete the Pokémon page, giving images of Poké Ball Pokémon even less of a purpose to be on the wiki. Poké Ball Pokémon are not nearly as intrinsic to the Smash Bros. games as moves, stages, items, and, of course, fighters; they are a mechanic part of the Poké Ball item.

Now I already think that for a wiki on Super Mario, a table listing Poké Ball Pokémon and giving an image of each one is enough of a stretch as is, but further discussion on that is for a possible future proposal. For this proposal, if it passes, only one artwork (or screenshot, if there is no artwork) per each Poké Ball Pokémon will be used, of their latest or only appearance in Smash Bros. only, and all other screenshots and artwork of Poké Ball Pokémon will be deleted. Several of them have been in Special:UnusedFiles for months. In the case that a Pokémon has both a screenshot and artwork, prioritize the artwork but delete the screenshot, consistent with how infoboxes are used. The playable fighters representing Pokémon and Rayquaza (a boss in Brawl) will not be affected by this proposal, nor will any of the trophy images of Poké Ball Pokémon, which would be better subject to a different proposal.

Edit: Passing this proposal will also remove any standalone Poké Ball Pokémon lists on the Smash Bros. game pages and list the Pokémon (though not their functions) within the Poké Ball description under the Items heading. To be consistent, this will also remove the Saffron City cameos on the Super Smash Bros. article, since they're more or less the same by virtue of Poke Ball Pokemon, except they spawn from the stage environment.

Second edit: A separate option ("Remove only Poké Ball Pokémon lists") has been added for those who want only the Poké Ball Pokémon list removed (at least from this proposal). This is for others who think that stage hazards should stay put on the game pages but not Poke Ball Pokemon, or for those who want the status of Pokémon and other non-Super Mario stage hazards to be for consideration in a future proposal altogether. Even in this case, an individual image for stage hazard Pokémon would be kept, even if they later became Poké Ball Pokémon, but on the game pages only, NOT on the List of Super Smash Bros. series items page for the reason that they are/were not Poké Ball Pokémon under this context.

Third edit: Adding a separate voting option for keeping any Poke Ball Pokemon artworks existing on gallery pages but not screenshots.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: August 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Remove both Poké Ball and stage Pokémon lists

1. Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.
2. Mushzoom (talk) Per proposal.
3. Koopa con Carne (talk) A little Pokemon coverage could still be contained in the Smash Bros item list because you can interact with them while playing as a Mario character, but all the tiny Saffron City cameos and specific mechanics of these assist Pokemon on the parent Super Smash Bros. game pages are excessive, and so are the dozens of images related to these things. Nuke 'em. Last I checked, this site is called "mariowiki.com".
4. SeanWheeler (talk) We've got Smash Wiki and Bulbapedia to cover the Pokémon in Super Smash Bros. Also, RPG has made better points than Doc in the comments.

Remove only Poké Ball Pokémon lists

1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Secondary.

Remove both lists and screenshots but not additional Poké Ball Pokémon artworks from gallery pages

1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Third.

Remove nothing

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - No reason for this. Note how I made the Pokemon table for the Super Smash Bros. (N64) page; there should be representation of each aspect for each "game" page, even aspects that link to another site - and the only way to so that in the way you're wanting would be to have images from other games in the series, which is an absolute no. EDIT: With the addition to the proposal's goals, this is now aiming to prioritize Gray Fox and Whispy Woods over Pokemon that have the same role (assist summon and stage hazard, respectively, such as Chansey and Venusaur on both counts) just because the latter are from Pokemon. This is completely counterintuitive and seems to have no basis other than a personal disdain for Pokemon images. Why do the former two (especially the foremost, who's not even a Nintendo character and has not appeared in any media with Mario other than Smash) get prioritized? Even if you "plan to take care of that in a later proposal," that still leaves things inconsistent until the hypothetical scenario of that happening and passing.
2. Hewer (talk) Per Doc, this doesn't feel like a logical limitation of scope to stay Mario-focused so much as a random and arbitrary restriction that hinders completeness. It also seems strange to me to single out Pokémon out of everything in Smash as the one thing not Mario-relevant enough to warrant this treatment - it doesn't make sense to do this for the Poké Ball summons but not the non-Mario Assist Trophies, or for the Pokémon stage hazards but not the other non-Mario stage hazards.
3. Metalex123 (talk) Per Doc

Comments

@Doc von Schmeltwick The Pokemon on the SSB64 page can just be mentioned under the Poké Ball description of the Items section. The description already says "a random Pokémon." That's vague. Which ones? But if mentioning the Pokémon in that description, then it will show which of them there are without making a separate subsection of something that doesn't directly invoke Super Mario, unlike items, moves, fighters, and stages, which all have at least one thing related to Super Mario in them. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:58, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

...in saying that, you openly admit you want it to be more vague. The non-Pokeball Pokemon are instead listed in the stage element sections, anyway. When it comes to this sort of section, we should not pick-and-choose what is and is not "relevant" to the Mario games, as there are too many edge cases; like the Bumpers, for instance, which despite being Smash-based appear as a permanent obstacle in the primary Mario stage. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:59, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

It's not vague. It would be summarizing Pokemon under the "Poke Ball" heading if saying "these are the Pokemon, all of them behave differently" and then either link to the list page on this wiki for more info (MarioWiki:Once and only once) or to SmashWiki. As for the Pokemon that are stage features, they could be mentioned under the respective stage descriptions. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:03, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

How would bloating a single item's section in the items table be preferable to just having a separate table? This covers everything equally without requiring extra pages or understating the importance of the individual subjects - having them as that page is is a great compromise. Attempting to remove it is suddenly just deciding some random aspect shouldn't even be alluded to properly, which is not how coverage works. The "once and only once" argument is irrelevant because that's like saying that the Fire Flower item section on that table shouldn't have a description because there's already a Fire Flower page, and the article you refer to mixes them with no regard for specific game - honestly, those list pages should be phased out in favor of having the information on the individual game pages with interwiki links, like the SSB page currently is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:06, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

As for Bumpers, those are items, which I said is more integral to the Smash Bros. series than Poke Ball Pokemon. It's not bloating if it's listing the names of the Pokemon in the Poke Ball section only and giving a one sentence or mention that each of them function differently. Why was the Pokemon page deleted through unanimous consent? Because it lacked enough relevance to Super Mario. These are components of an item that appear in a non-Super Mario crossover page. This is limiting Poke Ball Pokemon info to just the list page which, as stated in the proposal, could be considered a stretch itself (but subject to different proposal or community discussion). What's an "edge case" that involves Poke Ball Pokemon and the Super Mario franchise? The argument doesn't apply to Fire Flower for the obvious reason that those are in the Super Mario franchise itself. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:13, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

As I said, limiting to the list page is the opposite of what should be done, they should be limited to the game articles as SSB's currently is. That is a much better idea, and that is my final word on that discussion. And the Fire Flower thing does matter in regards to you bringing up "once and only once." The "edge case" thing more has to do with arbitrarily deciding something doesn't need image coverage on a game article, obviously. And yes, putting a 13-item list within a single cell of a table when no other cell of its column has one is absolutely bloating it - to say nothing of the later games that have even more. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:15, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

To me, the definition of "arbitrary" is someone deciding something based on feeling rather than elaborate consideration. Some of the guest coverage games like Nintendo Land don't list everything and just give an overview of the other minigames because those are prominent features of the game. If Super Smash Bros. were not named as such to anglophones (secondary, whilst the Japanese name is primary, being a game developed by HAL and Nintendo), the treatment of Smash Bros. coverage would almost certainly be on similar level to Nintendo Land or the recently released Nintendo World Championships game for Switch. One could make the argument that adding Pokemon descriptions within the Poke Ball is bloat, then that's something to consider, but there's no harm in listing the different Pokemon in it so then it's there in one place. It's not that hard to go to SmashWiki to read more about the Pokemon functions, just like for general Smash Bros. concepts and mechanics like special moves. Many things in Smash Bros. don't have pages here for the reason that Smash Bros. is not officially considered a component of the Super Mario franchise, and my proposal on deleting Trophy Tussle passed some months ago because it's not relevant enough, just like the Pokemon page isn't, and similar could be said for Poke Ball Pokemon. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:36, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

The main difference here is Nintendo Land is a collection of disconnected minigames, while Smash mixes everything together cohesively; it's much harder to pick it apart for only certain aspects, especially when we already cover four of the franchises included (Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario) plus some of what they list as "miscellaneous" games (Famicom Grand Prix, Wrecking Crew). Either way, the point I am making is the game page should have full coverage as to its contents regardless of what we have on-wiki pages for, because that's leaving holes - which as I already stated, are far more egregious than what Nintendo Land has due to the differences in cohesion. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:42, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

Why does WiKirby focus on only the Kirby aspects? Why does Zelda Wiki focus on only the Zelda aspects? Why does Bulbapedia focus only on the Pokemon aspects? One could ask the same about this wiki and aspects of Super Mario, for which there's already added lenience from the list pages and additional sections. Smash could not be a pun on Super Mario Bros. and still mix everything together, and the argument would still hold up that it's just as relevant to Super Mario as it is to the other franchises represented, but may incline further consideration of what stays and what goes. Picking apart the Poke Ball Pokemon section will not do a disservice to the wiki's already comprehensive and extended lenience towards coverage on these games at all. Limiting the items and stages would arguably provide less context, but this is an entire grouping of something that does not invoke Super Mario in any form. That's why I made a proposal about this. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:51, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

What other wikis do does not affect us. Either way, the current SSB page is easily something they could also do if they so felt to. But no other wiki has to juggle four franchises included in this crossover - at that point, just having it all is more efficient. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:57, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

Four franchises? They're representations of games that other Super Mario characters are protagonists of. They're Super Mario characters. A definition of four franchises would be Super Mario, Kirby, Star Fox, and The Legend of Zelda, to give an example. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:59, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

We treat them as separate franchises, and so does Smash; they have different icons in each game, with the Mushroom, the DK, the Egg, and the W, and different sections for trophies/stickers/music tracks/etc. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:02, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

If they truly were separate franchises, why does it all need to be covered in one place, on this wiki? Shouldn't they have their own wikis then, like other Nintendo franchises? See, it doesn't work. They are part of the Super Mario branding. In any case, this is distracting from the fact that the proposal is about the relevance of Pokemon and the Poke Ball items. Super Mario RPG (talk) 21:07, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

It's demonstrating that you're rather out-of-touch with how this works both on an official and wiki basis, and I mean that as gently as possible. We actually used to have a DKwiki as an affiliate, they ended up merging here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:13, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

The first sentence is an ad hominem and not about differing opinions on coverage on Poke Ball Pokemon. To reiterate my point, it probably merged because it didn't work separately when the wiki here covers the games in full, but that's besides the point. Super Mario RPG (talk) 21:18, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

The point is Smash is very cohesive with how it mixes elements, so including full coverage on the game page when Mario and related already have a disproportionately large influence on it compared to most (not all, mind you) other things included in it in a wide variety of roles makes more sense than picking-and-choosing. The prior sentence was more a warning that your arguments aren't quite as infallible as you think they are. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:27, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

Yes, but I've yet to see one reason how keeping the information benefits the Super Mario franchise directly over covering an entire page about an existing crossover game. Super Mario RPG (talk) 21:32, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

Efficiency. This is a multi-layered bit of coverage here, and starting to remove stuff from that page is a slippery slope that could lead to outright crippling the page (and become inconsistent with characters and items that have crossed over otherwise, if and when it gets to that point). I'd rather avoid that issue entirely - and image galleries should have full coverage anyway just on principle of their existence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:38, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

It won't necessarily get to that point if the community does not want it to. The definition of "efficiency" here is referring to the wiki page rather than connections to Super Mario. The image galleries already have excessive amounts of non-Super Mario images, something that could become a focus of a different proposal. Super Mario RPG (talk) 21:42, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

To illustrate what I mean by "bloat," here's the SSB item table with the proposed changes enacted (keeping the surrounding items for comparison):

Image	Name	Series	Description
	Bumper	Super Smash Bros. series	When thrown, this item remains in the same spot. If any character, including the user, touches it, they take damage, and are pushed in a single direction.
	Fan	Super Smash Bros. series	Because it is light, this item is good for quick attacks. But it doesn't do much damage and can't be thrown very far.
	Poké Ball	Pokémon series	When thrown, the Poké Ball opens up, and a Pokémon pops out. The Pokémon that appears is random; it performs its special skill and leaves. The Pokémon that can appear are: Beedrill Blastoise Chansey Charizard Clefairy Goldeen Hitmonlee Koffing Meowth Mew Onix Snorlax Starmie
	Star Rod	Kirby series	When the Star Rod is used, stars come flying out of it, hitting other characters. If used with smash, a large star flies out. The Star Rod has only a limited amount of large stars it can shoot.

See how the vertical space for that one specific row is severely extended compared to the ones around it by making that a list within the table? Later games would have even more, and THEN starting with Brawl, there's the Assist Trophies as well, and the only way to be consistent with those identically-acting items would be to have ones for that too. And then there's the Master Balls, which would need to have a redundant list for the subset that they're able to spawn. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:20, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick I never said I wanted it as a bullet list (perhaps unless {{columns}} is used). Separating by comma would be more efficient. Assist Trophies are items with franchise variety (also subject to separate discussion), unlike Poke Ball Pokemon, only concerning one franchise, are COMPONENTS of an item. It's not redundant if a Master Ball can list that it functions like a Poke Ball but gives priority to legendary Pokemon.

@Koopa con Carne Thank you for input. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:24, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Then it's not a well-formatted (or general wiki-formatted) list because it's harder to tell where the separation between items is; that is the precise reason we have bulleted lists rather than comma'd lists in the first place. Also, only keeping the Assist Trophy tables just because some of them are Mario-based isn't the solution either, because that's saying that Gray Fox or Jeff Andonuts in Brawl deserve more coverage than Charizard in Melee. And that seems rather arbitrary to me - again to say nothing of non-Mario Assist Trophies that have otherwise crossed over with Mario, like Shadow or Mr. Resetti or Dr. Wily. Also on the subject of Master Ball, we would still need to make clear which counted as "legendary" or otherwise we're leaving people to look through each Bulbapedia link themselves one-at-a-time. Which shouldn't be needed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:28, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

First, I meant like this (or comma-separated):

• Beedrill
• Blastoise
• Chansey
• Charizard
• Clefairy
• Goldeen
• Hitmonlee
• Koffing
• Meowth
• Mew
• Onix
• Snorlax
• Starmie

Except that's not as arbitrary based on the fact that Assist Trophies have Super Mario representation mixed in, unlike Poke Ball Pokemon, which have none at all. All relevance to Super Mario (even if considering it's a stretch) is saying "A Super Mario fighter can use this item and cause one of these Pokemon to appear from it." That's sufficient enough; anything else is bloat that can be found elsewhere in more detail in any case. The Charizard argument not hold up because he's a playable fighter in later Super Smash Bros. games, overshadowing his status as just a Poke Ball Pokemon, while Assist Trophies (again, subject to separate discussion) are part of a set that happens to have a few Super Mario characters within. Should the lists be simplified, his fighter profile can be linked to on the Super Smash Bros. Melee. And if the List of SSB items page is linked to, that may not necessarily be the case. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:38, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

You're missing the point. Assist Trophies that have no other relevance to Mario should not have any more priority than any of the Pokémon just because some of the other Assist Trophies are Mario-based, because functionally, they're the same item-by-function, just with a different pool of summons. Doing so is, indeed, quite arbitrary. (Also, on my screen at least, that columns thing manages to be even more bloated by bloating in two dimensions rather than just one.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:41, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Basically, the game pages should not be Mario-focused, they should be game-focused. For example, Jigglypuff does not need a page on the Super Mario Wiki, but the Super Smash Bros. page does need a section for Jigglypuff in the character list. This goes for every other element of the game too (including the Ball'mons and Assist Trophies in later ones), regardless of where they link, whether on-site or off-site. Outright not listing them isn't "only covering relevant things," it's hiding the fact they are there in the first place, which is a disservice in every respect. We should say what the game has, not limit it to what originated in a Mario-allied game, because that's not the extent of what the game contains. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:57, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

It's a wiki on Super Mario. It can balance both game-focused and Super Mario focused, which is a lot more thoughtful consideration than just "I don't know what stays what goes, let's cover it all." In that case we may as well merge SmashWiki into this wiki, something that I'm sure nobody wants. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:03, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Except that's not even remotely what I'm saying to do. I'm saying to include links off-site and just have listings, images, and descriptions for everything, not have pages for everything (and definitely not Smashwiki's overly-technical "this character's standard punch got buffed 3 points of damage since the last game, but their walking speed was nerfed by 2 points" thing that overruns that site). Just because an "affiliated" wiki covers something does not mean we are not allowed to cover it as well, that would be silly. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:07, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Your second point basically shows that you take issue with SmashWiki, being why you want a lot of Smash Bros. content to stay here. Didn't you vote to want Smash Bros. content to have their own pages in earlier Smash Bros. proposals? So if I had to guess, this is trying to haphazardly justify the inclusion of something that is not Super Mario while at the same defend the content not having individual pages based on outcomes of earlier proposals that you presumably opposed? It's inconsistent, so the entire argument is built on "keep everything because it's arbitrary to decide what isn't Super Mario" when it's clear as day that Poke Ball Pokemon are not Super Mario. And of course that's silly, since both us and them both cover the Super Mario aspects of Smash Bros. because of the overlap. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:13, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

I see now you are doing the ad hominem now, but either way I am allowed to think Smashwiki does things poorly, but that is not the main reason I want the game pages to cover what they do - I have already explained why I want them to. And yes, 7 years ago I did vote to keep full coverage, but I'm past that now. You have no reason to bring that up now; I might as well bring up how you, less than a year ago, attempted to forcibly remove content from console pages because it didn't directly relate to Mario, despite no one else agreeing with you to do that. I have already stated that currently, I don't think everything should have a page, but its existence should be acknowledged - and yes, with a visual representation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:20, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

And I have explained why I think it's redundant to have the Poke Ball Pokemon lists, countless times. I thought I responded directly to the points you were making? I assumed you took issue with SmashWiki being the reason for your defense, to which you responded that it isn't. The Virtual Boy example probably shows why proposals exist, so that such things are discussed before the big changes are enacted. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:26, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

In general, I am very anti-deletion because I want to keep history intact (and if possible, curated). That's why I prefer pages being turned into redirects rather than deleted outright. Turning images into redlinks on page history is directly counter to that, particularly when they aren't replaced with new ones. I find such practices destructive. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:33, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Well, removals have happened before. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:52, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

They have. And from my perspective, if it even had a reason to be somewhere, it should be curated in some manner - this obviously doesn't count things like what's listed on the "non-Mario content" section of BJaoDN, because most of that is nonsense that doesn't even have a tenuous connection, but there is a connection here. That's hardly a novel perspective either, given that "Flashpoint" thing that was made for curating Adobe Flash-based games. While I try to keep good faith, my gut feeling on that sort of permanent, unviewable removal equates it to wanton destruction. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:00, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

If the info is unique and can't be found elsewhere, that's one thing, but no real loss is done if it's a duplication of something that can be read elsewhere. Super Mario RPG (talk) 16:03, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

That's just it; it's not a "duplicate" because our coverage styles are just totally different because we are a very different community, and it's wrong to put upon another wiki like that. I guess the main reason Mario covering Smash is more valid than the other series included is that Mario is already very much multi-genre. Pokemon, Kirby, Zelda, et al. usually keep to their core genre with very rare outliers (like an occasional pinball game or something), so their wikis tend to not have systems in place to cover that sort of thing. Of the franchises that have been represented in every Smash game since the first one, Mario has always had the most representation due to also covering those other franchises as mentioned before; in the first game, there are four Mario-based fighters (Mario, Yoshi, DK, Luigi), five stages (Peach's Castle, Yoshi's Island, Congo Jungle, Mushroom Kingdom, and Meta Crystal), numerous stage gimmicks and cameos for each of those (Lakitu, Fly Guy, Goonie, Super Happy Tree, Necky, Barrel Cannon, Piranha Plant, Buzzy Beetle, Koopa Troopa, POW Block, Brick Block, and more), six usable items (Fire Flower, Star, both Shells, Hammer, Bob-omb), and one of Master Hand's attacks (Bullet Bill). Zelda gets one fighter, one stage, and one item, Kirby gets one fighter, one stage, three stage elements, and two items, Pokemon gets two fighters, one stage, several stage elements, and one item with all the appearances it spawns, Metroid gets one fighter, one stage, and one stage cameo, Star Fox gets one fighter, one stage, and a few stage elements, Earthbound gets one character and ambiguously one item depending on how you treat the Home Run Bat, and F-Zero gets a single fighter. Of these, the only one that approaches the Mario representation in amount is Pokemon, and it's mostly focused on the very subject of this proposal. That is why Mario will inherently get more coverage on this, and why by that point it makes the most sense to include the rest on the game page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:21, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

If we're going by the fact that it's not a duplication from what can be found elsewhere, it should probably present itself differently, especially by virtue of Super Mario. Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong are not real franchises, and even if they are called franchises, they're more of collective terms referring to their starring roles in Super Mario games, regardless of distinct symbols or not (after all, Wrecking Crew, starring Mario, has distinct symbol in later Smash Bros. games). And by the terms of majority representation, again, I'd expect it to apply to groupings that have at least something to do with Super Mario. "Might as well cover it all" has no bearing on the fact that one grouping in the Super Smash Bros. games does not have any Super Mario elements. Even groupings with Super Mario elements have been trimmed off of game pages, like how Trophy Tussle was deleted, the non-Super Mario Challenges, and the trophy lists, the latter not being listed on the game pages at all. On a separate, unrelated argument, I could deem trophies, something original to Smash, as being more intrinsic than the Poke Ball Pokemon. Super Mario RPG (talk) 16:31, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

In each of those cases the images were still kept, though, as they should be. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:38, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Game & Watch images were deleted before for lack of relevance to Super Mario, I think, in response to the outcome of a proposal restricting coverage to only Game & Watch Gallery games (with Modern remakes) and Super Mario-themed variations (such as Ball in SMB Game & Watch). Super Mario RPG (talk) 16:42, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Those aren't Smash Trophies or Trophy Tussle, which is what was being referred to. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:47, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Also, yes, those are franchises, Nintendo markets them as such - the very definition of a franchise. May I remind you the original game wasn't Mario, it was Donkey Kong. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:32, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Then from that perspective, should we start a proposal to rename this wiki to "Donkey Kong Wiki", then? I thought you told me they merged into this wiki. Something isn't adding up if we're calling them separate franchises but not covering them on separate wikis. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:49, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Why in the world would being a separately marketed franchise automatically require a different wiki, and vice-versa? That logic doesn't add up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:53, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

For the reason why different Nintendo franchises have their own wikis. For the reason why we have Bulbapedia for Pokemon information and not the Super Mario Wiki for Pokemon information. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:57, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

That is a very one-way approach to how this works. Nintendo doesn't have so many franchises that constantly intermingle like these ones do, but if you look at other ones, you see more of that. For instance, the Street Fighter wiki covers Final Fight just fine, because there's such significant overlap. It's not about matching the divisions, it's about doing what is the most efficient for that specific case, which is the entire thing I have been arguing in favor of this entire discussion. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:04, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

The "intermingling" in this case refers to the fact that these are all Super Mario characters, unlike Link and Isabelle, even though they appear in Mario Kart 8. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:27, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

I'd say it's moreso the frequency of said intermingling and that in most cases they seem to inhabit the same world; Zelda and Animal Crossing only get occasional appearances. Anyway, fun fact: the wiki in the ancient days used to have a page listing everything from the Banjo-Kazooie games and Conker games because said characters made their first by-release-date appearance in Diddy Kong Racing. That deletion was justified (though I'll admit its presence was the only reason I found Banjo-Kazooie again when I did after I briefly played it at a cousin's house when I was a toddler). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:52, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

That's pretty embarrassing that they covered that at one point, especially when considering Microsoft owns the Banjo and Conker IPs. This wiki has improved a lot since then, for sure. Super Mario RPG (talk) 22:59, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

@Super Mario RPG Can I just say, the proposal as it's being presented right now seems a bit misleading. The title makes it sound like you're just removing images, when your edit suggests that you're also removing the Pokemon tables in all of the Smash Bros. game articles. You should probably change the title to match that. DrippingYellow (talk) 13:48, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Sure. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:01, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

@Super Mario RPG I am not personally very invested in Pokémon material on the wiki, so I am abstaining for now, but if people want to represent these games on Super Mario Wiki, is there much intrinsic harm in that? I can see the benefit in having access to different sources that cover material in different ways. Otherwise we would probably need to discard all of our Super Mario 64 material because that is the sole focus of our NIWA-affiliate Ukikipedia. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:05, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

I've had lots of discussion above that's probably given most points behind my argument. In one of the later messages I noted how Super Mario material in Smash Bros. is covered both here and on SmashWiki for obvious reasons, but that's because it falls under a key part of both wiki's scope. And I don't even need to say why we have a Super Mario 64 on this wiki. This proposal isn't looking to completely axe any and all forms of mentioning Pokemon, but do consider how the Pokemon article was removed from unanimous consent and my point behind the grouping of Poke Ball Pokemon being 100% Pokemon and not a variety of franchise representations, like more key components of the Smash series like stages, items, and fighters. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:52, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer There's probably a lot of Smash coverage discrepancies due to several proposals in the past, some succeeding and some not. If there's other Smash Bros. groupings without any Super Mario involvement, like non-Super Mario stage hazards, which are a component of a stage, those should absolutely become the focus of a separate proposal. Super Mario RPG (talk) 16:50, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

OK, but why should Venusaur be removed from the Stage Hazard list but Whispy Woods is perfectly fine (to say nothing about all the ones in later games)? It doesn't make sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:26, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

This proposal is about limiting excessive Pokemon information relating to Smash Bros. Since this proposal already covers a lot, it may make sense to run a separate concurrent proposal to remove all non-Super Mario stage hazard components. The deletion of the Pokemon article in particular has set a precedent to removing excessive Pokemon coverage, and should this pass, the precedent (in a separate proposal) would be to discuss the removal of other non-Super Mario stage hazards. This proposal was originally just about the Poke Ball Pokemon, but Koopa con Carne's support vote made me realize it could apply to the Saffron City hazards too. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:49, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

I'm going to be blunt - the current state of the Smash 64 page is how all our Smash pages should be. No more, no less. Linking to other wikis as necessary, but acknowledging the existence of what else is there in a consistent manner. That is what should be proposed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:53, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

So in other words, deleting the non-Super Mario stage hazards doesn't have a precedent yet. One could make a proposal about taking out all of the stage hazard lists, and someone could point out the inconsistency of keeping that out while keeping Poke Ball Pokemon lists. One thing at a time. It's not easy to cover all of the loose ends under a single proposal. If this passes and another proposal for deleting non-Super Mario stage hazards is made, perhaps unique input would be given. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:57, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

I just cannot understand why you think removing good information makes things "better." Its origin is irrelevant when it's on the page for a crossover title, not a page for those individual subjects. It's better the way it is now, the only thing that needs changed is those ridiculous series-wide "list" pages (and enemy list pages) need to be merged into the game pages. That is where the focus should be. Not on trying to "fix" what isn't broken. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:04, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

For the reason that me and the others supporting the proposal see it as lacking relation to Super Mario. Anyways, I've added another voting option to remove Poke Ball Pokemon in consideration (but not exclusively to) those who want a single future proposal that concerns non-Super Mario stage hazards outright. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:07, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

I know folks here care a lot about how we cover content pertaining to the Super Mario franchise. That is appreciated passion, but a lot of the discussion here has devolved into uncharitable accusations at one another, which both weakens one's points and, more importantly, is just unkind. I encourage folks to maintain good faith. Even if one has trepidations about the long-term consequences of this specific proposal if it passes, there was absolutely no harm in raising it. What we have here are dueling perspectives on what type of coverage is extraneous and what is within our scope, and that is not as huge a deal as it is being made out to be. - Nintendo101 (talk) 22:09, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

If you noticed I actually mentioned that very thing (ctrl+f "good faith" lol) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:35, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Coincidentally, earlier, I wanted to say how the discussion felt as if they reached a point of spiraling in circles, or even derailed to off-topic, but was worried that statement would be deemed discourteous. Super Mario RPG (talk) 22:37, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah no worries, we definitely have irreconcilable differences in how we view this. If you want to stop debating this directly, then I do too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:47, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

That's how I feel. It seems to have taken its course. With every response, we each felt compelled to respond. I think every position on each side has been exhausted, or stated on the comments above. There's people who took my side on this and others who took yours. Someone apparently read everything below in the comments as well before casting a vote. Super Mario RPG (talk) 22:50, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

Doc von Schmeltwick: well. okey dokey, then. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 22:45, August 22, 2024 (EDT)

@Super Mario RPG I understand the desire to remove content one thinks is extraneous, but something I do like that is offered on Super Mario Wiki that has no presence on Smash Wiki are nicely curated gallery pages for each of the Super Smash Bros. games, especially for legitimate pieces of artwork. For reasons that were not apparent in my years over at Smash Wiki, that is just not something they feel inclined to integrate. While I would not personally lose sleep over the removal of screenshots, I want not like to, say, see artwork of a Pokémon in Brawl deleted from the gallery page because we are only keeping the one from Ultimate. Is that a misread of the proposal's scope, or would those kinds of removals happen? - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:07, August 23, 2024 (EDT)

Going from your example, no, artwork of Pokemon from earlier Smash games won't be removed under the scope of this proposal UNLESS they are Poke Ball summons without a newer artwork replacement by the time of Smash Ultimate. I'm unsure if I can change at this point, since the proposal's been ongoing for a few days. Super Mario RPG (talk) 23:21, August 23, 2024 (EDT)

@Nintendo101 I added a separate voting option. Does it fall under the scope of your concern over the status of the artworks? Super Mario RPG (talk) 23:44, August 23, 2024 (EDT)

Changes

Shorten disambiguation identifiers "(Super) Nintendo Entertainment System" to "(S)NES"

The console names "Nintendo Entertainment System" and "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" are way too long and clunky, so much so that the abbreviations "NES" and "SNES" are commonly used in the body of articles throughout the wiki, even though we usually don't use abbreviations. And yet, we still use the full console names in the disambiguation identifiers of article names:

• Mario is Missing! (Nintendo Entertainment System)
• Mario is Missing! (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)
• Wario's Woods (Nintendo Entertainment System)
• Wario's Woods (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)

The identifiers are so long that they take up more than half of the article name and are less immediately legible than their respective abbreviations. This is particularly jarring on the Mario is Missing! disambiguation page because the abbreviations are used on the page (e.g., "Mario is Missing!, the NES game") but it links to articles with names containing the full console names ("Mario is Missing! (Nintendo Entertainment System)").

That's why I propose to shorten "Nintendo Entertainment System" and "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" to "NES" and "SNES" respectively in disambiguation identifiers of article names:

• Mario is Missing! (NES)
• Mario is Missing! (SNES)
• Wario's Woods (NES)
• Wario's Woods (SNES)

Please note that there is already an article which uses an abbreviated identifier: "Building World (Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters for SNES)", although if we decide to keep the full identifiers, maybe we should rename it to "Building World (Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters for Super Nintendo Entertainment System)" for consistency?

Proposer: Jdtendo (talk)
Deadline: August 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to August 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support (SNES)

1. Jdtendo (talk) Per proposal.
2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposal and similarly passed earlier proposal on shortening identifiers of the second and third Donkey Kong Country games.
3. Technetium (talk) Per all.
4. Mario shroom (talk) too long, agree.
5. SeanWheeler (talk) Let's simplify the names.

#Pseudo (talk) Per all.

Oppose (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)

1. Hewer (talk) I don't see much of a problem with long names, and I'd rather go without the inconsistency created by these being the only shortened console names. And yes, I suppose we should move the Building World page too, like how "Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for 3DS)" got moved to "Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for Nintendo 3DS)".
2. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Hewer. While these shortened versions do make for fine redirects (and honestly, I kinda hope these do get made for other games in the form of redirects, but that's neither here nor there), we probably shouldn't be enforcing these as being the default name unless it's a part of a global move to abbreviate the console names for the articles of every game--not just one random edutainment game.
3. JanMisali (talk) Per all.
4. Pseudo (talk) Per Hewer and Camwoodstock.
5. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
6. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all.
7. Jazama (talk) Per all

Comments (Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters for SNES)

now there's a bit of a grey area here, what about consoles like Nintendo 64, Nintendo Switch and so on? It'd feel somewhat weird to abbreviate one but not the others, there'd be an inconsistency. - YoYo (Talk) 09:33, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

The thing with those is that the "Nintendo" part is needed or else it could just be confused as a random number (64) or word (switch). They also just aren't as long. Technetium (talk) 09:57, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

Besides, as I said in the proposal, the abbreviations "NES" and "SNES" are commonly used in the body of articles, but other console names are not abbreviated as frequently. For example, here is an extract of the LodgeNet article: "for the SNES, Nintendo 64, and Nintendo GameCube"; note how only the Super Nintendo Entertainment System's name is abbreviated whereas the other console names are written in full. Jdtendo^(T|C) 10:09, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

I think the shortening of N64, GCN, GBA, etc. could use another propasal. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:30, August 13, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer Okay, The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens' name is ridiculous. I want to propose a shortening of the title, but I don't know enough about the character. But that just shows why page names shouldn't be too long. SeanWheeler (talk) 20:27, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

...Not to burst your bubble, but we actually had a proposal to move it to its current name last month. Prior to that, the article was merely titled "The Old Psychic Lady", which from what I can tell was actually never actually used like that in the episode. She introduced herself by the full title of "The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens" (whether it used capital letters or not is unknown), and the Marios simply refer her to as the "crazy lady" or "that psycho lady" since they can't properly remember such a long name. Since "The Old Psychic Lady" never was used as one of the official names, and the wiki refers to her by her full name anyway, it was proposed to move the article to the lady's full title (I mean, at least "NES" and "SNES" are officially used abbreviations by Nintendo themselves and their full names were not created for comedic purposes). rend (talk) (edits) 20:50, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

Arguments about the name being "ridiculous" or "too long" were used in the proposal linked to by Arend, and much like with those arguments, you haven't substantiated the claim very well. Why is a long page name "ridiculous" when it's just accurately referring to the subject? Why should we sacrifice accuracy in favour of a shorter page name? What about long page names is in any way disadvantageous? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:37, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Tbh, I'd merge the two Building Worlds together if it were up to me, they're still both represented by the same icon in the map screen and differences can easily be mentioned in the article, it'd also be consistent with the rest of the Mario's Early Years Worlds. Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:09, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Allow more "History of" articles under two more conditions

This may be a small thing, but unlike the quotes, profiles, and even galleries, there is more restriction on which articles get to be split off into a History page. Please take note that proposal is not about amending the minimum number of bytes needed (150K) to split the History section of an article into its own page. It's about allowing more "History of" pages. The 150K guidelines already does not apply to splitting galleries, profiles, and quotes from the base article.

Should this proposal pass, more History pages would be allowed under the condition of the article either having a General information section with at least two subsections or the condition if there is a single section with a wikitable. This way, if a split were to occur, there's at least more information besides what is contained in the opening section. Luigi, Yoshi, Wario, Princess Peach, and other subjects with history pages all have something in common where their pages have well established General information sections, providing enough context about them, while the History page would serve as a comprehensive read on their individual appearances, which can be summarized on the main article. To me, it feels inconsistent that Wario and Bowser have their History pages split but not their respective partners, Waluigi and Bowser Jr., both of whom are recurring.

The reason I want to give exception if the section has a wikitable is because of the Barrel page, where the barrels section is tucked all the way at the bottom, below a long History section, so it cannot be seen immediately by readers, many of whom may not see the section otherwise.

If the article has been featured in the past (e.g. Chain Chomp), a different proposal would be required before splitting it, or some other democratic matter decided upon by the community (e.g. adding a talk template and overhauling the page in accordance to community input on the talk page).

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: August 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

#Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.

Oppose

1. Hewer (talk) These seem like very random metrics compared to the logical one of article size, especially since they're based on other sections of the article rather than the actual history section that's being split. History sections are split so that articles stay at reasonable sizes with reasonable loading times, not to aid presentation of the rest of the article. (Honestly I'd rather do less splitting of history sections since it scatters information a bit, but I understand it's a practicality issue to have such huge pages worsening loading times.) If someone who wants information on the subject doesn't look at the whole of the subject's article, that's not our problem - the information on a merged page is still conveyed well, and the "issue" of having to do some scrolling to find certain sections is solved by the contents list at the top of the article that lists the sections.
2. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) I'd honestly rather merge a lot of the split history pages back.
3. Nintendo101 (talk) per Nightwicked Bowser.
4. SeanWheeler (talk) These split history pages are longer than Waluigi's entire page. Waluigi doesn't need to split when his page isn't long enough.
5. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) Firstly, Bowser Jr. does have his own history page and secondly, I still think those pages are pretty easy to scroll through and find the information you want. This is actually the first time I learned that the article size has risen from 100kb, to 150kb, but regardless, that length makes much sense, because the articles could go on like novels at that point and the reasons for splitting articles is to make the pages load less. I'm all for more articles having their history pages split, but this is not the correct way to do it.
6. Jazama (talk) Per all
7. Dine2017 (talk) Per all.
8. Power Flotzo (talk) Per all.

Comments

I'm a bit confused, what exactly is this proposal trying to change? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:49, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

I'll give an example of what's allowed if this proposal passes. For the first condition, Waluigi article has at least two sections under General information. With that, the ==History== section of Waluigi's article can be split into History of Waluigi. For the second condition, the Barrel page would split into History of barrels so that the "Types of barrels" (which qualifies as a subsection of "General information") is more accessible to the reader for its comprehensive wikitable. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:56, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

Require citations for names in other languages

Recently, the issue of confirming names in other languages has been discussed on the wiki's Discord server. Put simply, there is a high likelihood that many of these names are fake or otherwise inaccurate, and as an English wiki, the majority of the userbase is unable to independently verify the accuracy of these names. As such, I believe it should be made mandatory for every name listed in the names in other languages sections to have a citation attached to it. Yes, this will be very, VERY difficult to do considering the sheer number of pages that will need to be gone through, but I think it is better to address this problem now rather than later. More and more games and media will release the longer we wait, only adding more to the workload.

Note that for these citations, using text / quotes is just as valid as including a link or image. Unsourced names will also not be removed, but rather have the [citation needed] notice added.

Proposer: Technetium (talk)
Deadline: August 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Technetium (talk) As proposer. This would prevent fake names from being added. Even if a citation is not found, this proposal would let readers know to take foreign names with a grain of salt via the [citation needed] notice.
2. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal. Misinformation is easy to get into a record and hard to remove. Best we avoid creating Brazilian aardvarks.
3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
4. Super Mario RPG (talk) Strongly agree.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all. I think the opposition is overlooking that a lot of false foreign names slip through because misguided editors try to machine translate. Without proper sourcing, it's very difficult to catch when they're added and how many of them are already on the wiki. It's just not feasible to expect readers to boot up a foreign copy because they're not that accessible - correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Switch is the first console where you can pick any translation across the board? If anything, maybe we could make an exception for names that have been verified in easily accessible translations. Also, if someone does verify it for themselves, how is anyone else supposed to know a name has been verified? Yes, solving this is going to be a lot of work, but it's already a problem and it's a problem that's only going to get worse the longer we do nothing about it.
6. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
7. Ahemtoday (talk) Per all.
8. Drake Inferno (talk) Essentially agree with all other points here, but I also feel that a citation could probably in most cases outside of rare versions (which would be case-by-case) just be "where this comes from", rather than a fully formatted video/image/text citation. If a person Google Translates a name and adds it, that's one thing. But if the same person does that and then actually claims it came from the text of the game, that's actively lying, and also a bit of a barrier to entry encouraging people to do the work of verifying their info.
9. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. We're a wiki; we should be striving to have accurate information, and just because it's a lot of effort doesn't mean it's "bad" or not worth it. And, as Waluigi Time points out, if we don't do something about this now, it's only going to become an even larger problem in the future. Just because the best time to start obtaining proper citations for foreign names was years ago doesn't mean it's not worth it to start now--there isn't a time limit on this!
10. Tails777 (talk) Per Waluigi Time, Drake Inferno and Camwoodstock.
11. Mario (talk) There's a lot of times I wonder where the sourced names come from, and often times, foreign names are useful bits of information to rely on especially when there's shaky North American localization involved, such as Pale Piranha's case. A while back, there was a huge discussion in Talk:Mushroom World related to how we cover the scope of the article, and "Planeta de los Hongos" and "Kinoko no Sekai" were brought up a couple times as if they were legitimate, which added to the confusion. I queried there if there's a source for "Planeta de los Hongos" and we did get an answer and had those names removed. This proposal will help clear up and hopefully prevent future confusion in some of these discussions. It's also in the proposal's favor that we did find a lot of backward translated names in the same scope as "Planeta de los Hongos". I assume some names are relatively self evident, such as generic objects (banana) or Red Shell or Metal Mario, so they don't require a citation but there are plenty of enemy names where it's much better safe than sorry to indicate where these names were found.
12. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) I feel like this is a tiny bit excessive, but it will help with preventing fake names from being put on the wiki, especially with foreign ones that are not Japanese (because Japanese names are relatively well-known for Mario characters, I think).
13. Jazama (talk) Per all
14. Shoey (talk) This seems like a no brainer Per all.

Oppose

1. Jdtendo (talk) Per my comments below.
2. Hewer (talk) Per Jdtendo, this feels excessive.
3. Apikachu68 (talk) Per my comments below. I don't think pages should be inundated with citations.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Holding English and foreign in-game names to different standards will lead to more issues than that solves; if the source comes from something rare like an iQue translation, then citation makes perfect sense, but for the most part, this is trivial to retrieve nowadays provided you have a nearby save file due to the rise of region-free system languages.
5. Koopa con Carne (talk) I understand the viewpoint of the proposal, but I believe its application would be way too broad and would surely result in a sizeable amount of redundance. On the one hand, yes, a lot of non-English names either originate from volatile sources (see List of LEGO Super Mario set names in other languages (A–C), which cites product pages on LEGO.com) or obscure sources (see the myriad of references to licensed guides) and require some explicit context to justify their place here. Even names that are used directly in a game may need citing if they're obtainable in incredibly specific scenarios within that game, such as the names of these background objects that appear only 2 weeks a year in a live service game, or information deriving from those iQue translations mentioned by LinkTheLefty. On the other hand, Jdtendo raises a good point that often a source is so ubiquitous that it can just as easily be deduced from reading the article. Normally, I don't think Mario, Peach, or Bowser, or even less popular subjects such as Parry, The InterNed, and Ratfael, require such citations, simply because their non-English names are obtainable in much the same way as their English counterparts--by following their respective games with a minimum to moderate amount of attention, the only difference being that you'd need to switch the game to another language setting or, at worst, seek a different localization for it. A case-by-case treatment is in order, but I disagree with turning this treatment into a sitewide requirement.
6. Arend (talk) I get the concern, but most of the other-language names come from the same in-game source as the English one. Sure, sometimes you get mistakes like someone assuming the Dutch name for "Crystal Star" is "Juweelster" like how the Crystal Stars are being called the "Juweelsterren" without realizing that the name "Crystal Stars" is more of an outlier compared to the other languages or that the game will tell with any of them the same "You Got a Crystal Star" message when collecting them and that their actual name is in the Crystal Stars submenu, but this should be verifiable for anyone who has a copy of the Switch version of The Thousand-Year Door considering any copy can be played in all of the available languages. That only another Dutch person such as myself cares enough to correct that mistake is not because of a lack of verifiable sources, but more of a lack of care of the wiki itself to verify it for themselves. Like Koopa con Carne said, this is more of a case-by-case basis rather than something that should be applied for literally every multilingual name documented on the wiki. Not only will it be such a hassle to not only add a "citation needed" tag to literally any non-English name that doesn't already have a source (or worse, removing them entirely which doesn't help the wiki in the slightest), but also scour through every other-lingual copy of every single Mario game and/or manual, take a screenshot or photo (good luck if you don't have a capture card or photo scanner) and upload it all to the wiki just to verify that yes, this name is legit – especially if it's not even necessary for the English names to go through all of that too, which is just a bit unfair IMO.
7. YoYo (talk) per arend
8. DandelionSprout (talk) As someone who've added quite a lot of language names for pages related to Princess Peach: Showtime! and some WarioWare games (e.g. Gold, Touched!, Mega), I must unfortunately say that it'd be nothing short of absolutely ridiculous to implement such a policy. For PPS, uploading 10-ish screenshots for each of approximately 65 pages would be unnecessary use of server hosting space (I am not going to upload 650 images just for the sake of PPS levels and characters!). And for Switch games in particular, it is pretty easy to check if names are accurate, now that many games do have their JP and Korean versions integrated into the Western game releases. The European versions of most DS and 3DS games can also crosscheck all Western languages' names.
9. Scrooge200 (talk) I also work with foreign names myself, a lot -- a lot of the time I datamine them directly from the game, these are in-game names that are easy to rip. But requiring a ton of screenshots or digging through videos to hope you find one that displays the text is a huge waste of time. You can't really assume every necessary thing will be there: for example, I've only been able to find one Dutch let's play of Paper Mario: Color Splash, and it doesn't show things like the soundtrack titles, not to mention it wasn't uploaded until two years after the game came out. It was also incredibly difficult to find a Portuguese playthrough. And for foreign playthroughs of more obscure games or ones with less coverage, it'd be even more time-consuming.
10. Power Flotzo (talk) Per all.

Comments

Goomther's Italian name is Goombolone. Source: that's his name in the Italian version of the game. Chef Soulfflé's Dutch name is Kok Eauvain. Source: that's his name in the Dutch version of the game. Destiny Del Vecchio's European French name is Allison Ledestin. Source: that's her name in the European French version of the movie. In the above cases where the name is found in only one piece of media, the source would be completely redundant because it's evident that the source is the localized version of the game or movie where the character appears; that's for the same reason that we don't require citations for English names in those situations. I feel that the scope of this proposal is way too broad and should be focused on subjects for which the source is not evident. Jdtendo^(T|C) 12:52, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

The thing is that since the majority of the wiki's userbase is English speaking, we don't have easy access to those pieces of media to double check. That's why I think having a link to say, a video showcasing the name from the piece of media is preferable, vs say the English version where users can more easily check for themselves. Technetium (talk) 13:05, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Alright. How do I prove that Destiny Del Vecchio's European French name is Allison Ledestin? Do I need to upload a clip of the movie (and hope that it does not get copyright-claimed)? Say that I intend to add the French names of all characters in the upcoming Mario & Luigi game. Will I need to find a Let's Play that showcases every character (even the optional characters that most let's players won't even encounter) or make a screenshot for every single character, upload them, and painstakingly link each character name to the right screenshot? What about names added in batches from the internal game files? Shall we still provide a source for all of those? Jdtendo^(T|C) 13:33, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

You bring up good points that I lack good answers to. I am fully aware of how much of a pain this proposal would be, but I can't think of any better options to prevent misinformation. I will say that as I mentioned below, existing names would not be deleted, but would simply have [citation needed] added. It is possible these citations will never be added, but I feel readers deserve to know that while the name they are seeing could very well be accurate, it is not 100% confirmed, so they should take it with a grain of salt. As for names in internal files, see my response to the comment below (assuming you are talking about the same sort of thing). Technetium (talk) 14:07, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

@Jdtendo I would say, yes, absolutely. If you are adding a name of unclear origins, it 100% should be cited. If one is adding a valid name to the wiki, it is coming from somewhere anyways and citing that source is not an unreasonable expectation. If it is coming from a particular release of the game, then I think it is fine to cite the line of dialogue, scenario, or mission list like so: <ref>"Not bad! I guess I chose the right guy to be my archenemy." – Bowser during "Darkness on the Horizon" (12 Nov. 2007). Super Mario Galaxy by Nintendo EAD Tokyo (North American Localization). Nintendo of America. Retrieved 18 May 2023.</ref> This is already encouraged in policy, which states:

For the most part, you don't need to provide a reference for basic information taken directly from the games... However, if information is more obscure and its validity may be questioned, citing specific text found in the game (i.e. dialogue in an RPG), its manual or some other official guide book will help maintain the wiki's credibility.

Surely, non-English names that are difficult for the largely English-speaking userbase to verify can be described as "obscure and of questionable validity", especially since many foreign names are unsourced and are integrated by IP-addresses. These are very difficult to verify for anyone who is not adding it, and I do not agree that it is an unreasonable ask. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:54, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

If Option 1 of this proposal passes, integration like my Super Mario Galaxy example above is intuitively what I anticipated for non-English names that really do have in-game usage. I personally do not think providing videos or images is necessary, and I think internal file names can comfortably be used as a reference (like so: <ref>internal file names</ref>). - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:19, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Some of the Dr. Mario World pages were taken from the datamine (examples: ice fan, Muddy Coin), because when the game's service was shut down, there really is no way to verify the different languages. And thus, I felt that the datamine has accurate information because it came directly from the game. How would those be sourced? (Also unrelated to this proposal, but I would like to add is that the translation sections for those terms are incomplete.) Winstein (talk) 12:57, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

I definitely think names taken from datamines should count as being sourced, but I'm not sure how to mark that as I am worried it would give ill-meaning editors a way to put blatantly fake names in and claim that they're correct from a datamine. I also just don't know much about datamining and if it is possible at all to have citations for those, so I'd be glad to hear anyone else's opinions on the matter. Technetium (talk) 14:07, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

I'm someone who mines names from files. They are easily sourceable, you have to source the filepath for the text data you extracted it from ie "\message\EU_Russian\menu.msbt". Ray Trace^(T|C) 12:30, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

If this proposal passes, will unsourced foreign names be removed outright or will ^{[citation needed]} be added to them? - Apikachu68 (talk) 1:23, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

[Citation needed] would be added, I think. Technetium (talk) 13:29, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Alright, that is good to know. However, considering option 1 passes, 237 citations would need to be added to the List of Mario names in other languages page, and if the six citations already present are included, this would give the page a total of 243 citations, almost double the number of citations present on the List of Super Mario 64 glitches page. (126)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Apikachu68 (talk).

If I take an unqualified guess that 7,000 pages would be affected, with an average of 5 language names per page, it would make the wiki as a whole look strange at best, and very poorly worked on to outsider readers at worst, since possibly more than 30,000 "Citation needed" suffixes would've been added to the wiki. We'd almost overnight go from being a Super Mario franchise authority, to looking no more professional than random wikias. DandelionSprout (talk) 18:53, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

I dont think we need direct sources like videos or screenshots for every single name in a different language, but a simple "in-game" or "manual" tag would suffice, perhaps with a bit more specificity if its a particularly hard name to find in-game (i.e. "in-game, in Mushrise Park") or something like that. My main issue is that as it stands, made up names and names that are obviously real and found in-game are indistinguishable. — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 20:25, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

I can go and add something like that as another voting option, since it is still early enough for me to edit the proposal. Technetium (talk) 20:30, August 18, 2024 (EDT)

Not sure these need to be separate options, current sourcing already allows for just using text when appropriate (e.g. an in-game quote or an excerpt from a strategy guide - the latter could actually get us in trouble if we did require image citations). -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:14, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, I just decided to remove Option 2, as I was already getting confused between the two yesterday, and I was not aware of quotes still using the same reference syntax at the time of adding Option 2. Technetium (talk) 12:26, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

With the right game you can even go so far to source the file path of the file you can extract the name data from. Ray Trace^(T|C) 12:30, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: The "how is anyone else supposed to know a name has been verified" argument applies to English names too. Expecting readers to have access to every game covered on the wiki is unreasonable regardless of language. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:16, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

The difference is this is an English wiki, so the majority of the readerbase is familiar with and has access to the English copy of the game. Even if you don't personally have a copy of a particular game, there's more users able to verify names and be able to catch something if there's an error. That's why I don't think the "we shouldn't treat English differently from other languages" argument holds water. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:41, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

I don't know if "it's difficult for an English userbase to confirm in-game foreign language names" is all that valid anyway, considering LPs exist on YouTube and similar sites for pretty much any language the games are actually released in anyway. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:22, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

That doesn't seem entirely reliable. Most LPs, in my experience, don't look at every piece of text in the game, so you have to track down a gameplay video, find the portion of the game you're looking for, and then hope they didn't skip over anything. Even in games that aren't text-heavy there's things like SM64 signs, Mario Party board events etc. that can easily be skipped over. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:41, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

For text hidden away that obscurely, we sometimes cite English ones as well, so it's still not all that different. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:43, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

As an opposer, even I directly acknowledged that some in-game stuff is obscure enough that you'd need to state where it comes from. Do it case-by-case, otherwise you end up with Mario's Japanese name suddenly requiring a citation, which... yeah, lmao. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:43, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

They don't. Trust me, they don't. A majority of Princess Peach: Showtime! languages do not have, and will pretty likely never have, full 100% LPs for them. Finding Simplified Chinese LPs for almost any game would also be a nightmare, since most people who use that writing style rely on Bilibili and similar sites, where things get deleted all the time.DandelionSprout (talk) 18:48, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

I apologize if this sounds dismissive or harsh, but the assertions that "this would take a lot of work to implement", "I think citations would clutter the page", and "readers can verify this on their own if they want" are not substantive and fail to address the core issues raised in the proposal. The Super Mario franchise is over forty years old, and the majority of the games lack in-game bestiaries or instruction booklets that catalog all of the subjects. So the majority of article subjects on our wiki were not introduced in a period of time where video game localization was carefully documented. Yet subjects spanning across decades of media have integrated names for a variety of languages and almost none of them are cited. For example, not a single non-English name for Octoomba is cited. Did these names come from the localized Super Mario Galaxy 2 scripts? Data-mined from Dr. Mario World? The encyclopedia? Guidebooks? Made-up? I have no idea. Nearly every single enemy and character with a "Names in other languages" section has this same exact problem. Fire Piranha Plant. Cooligan. Buster Beetle. Bob-omb Buddy. Spinecone. Morty Mole. Gooble. Heave-Ho. Some of these subjects have some of their names sourced, but none of them have all of them, and this includes subjects that have appeared once in the franchise in a pre-Switch era. Where did these come from? Why is the information not provided? A reader 100% should not be burdened with going to another source like a Let's Play Channel to try verify this information, because that is what we are suppose to be doing - providing accurate information that can be trusted. Research, citation, and curation are difficult and time-consuming. But they are an inherent part of a credible encyclopedic project regardless of field or subject matter. If we should reject this proposal because we feel it would be too much of a burden on us, then why even have this wiki if we are unwilling to do the leg work necessary to make it trustworthy? - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:58, August 19, 2024 (EDT)

While not the worst argumentation I've heard, the only possible outcome of it for most pages would be to add <ref name=in-game>In-game name</ref> to sometimes more than 10 rows in the "Names in other languages" table. And (somewhat unfortunately) knowledge of using "name" in "ref" is considered very advanced stuff for newcomers to wiki editing. DandelionSprout (talk) 19:03, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

I've been able to test a bit now how this proposal, specifically your (Nintendo101) and (if I understood him correctly, which I may or may not have) Waluigi Time's approach, and much less drastic than how I understood Technecium's concepts, and I have concluded that the proposal does make sense for character names specifically, e.g. Dancer. Though during the same testing, I found the proposal to be mostly unnecessary for the names of levels, minigames, and very likely microgames; the games usually have easily accessible level lists, and my guess is that it's pretty hard for someone to fake a made-up level name from thin air. DandelionSprout (talk) 19:51, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

Just to be clear, how would enforcing this work if the source is a translated game? Will it be how Zelda Wiki does it, including English names as well? For that I think it would be better to have a general note saying all names are taken from a game if no additional citations are used. SmokedChili (talk) 09:49, August 20, 2024 (EDT)

This. I feel like that would clear up some things so that the supporting side would have the machine-translation-deterring effect that they're wanting, without clogging the references section with repeated instances of "'Quote from a game.', (language) translation of (game), (release year)". DrippingYellow (talk) 18:03, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

If a subject has appeared in many forms of media, for example, Mario, how would the name be cited? - Apikachu68 (talk) 10:42, August 20, 2024 (EDT)

It's not like we need a comprehensive list of every time the name is used — one use in an official capacity is enough to establish a name as official. Ahemtoday (talk) 01:23, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

@DandelionSprout @Scrooge200 The proposal says that screenshots/videos aren't required and a text citation is fine. Also, for Scrooge200's point specifically, the difficulty for most users to verify this information is exactly why we should be sourcing them on-site. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:07, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

What would a text citation even need to be? Like, in Color Splash and The Origami King, an area's name shows up as soon as you walk into it -- why would we need to source obvious in-game text like that? Scrooge200 (talk) 20:20, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

It depends on the game and where the text even is, but just pulling an example we can recall off the top of our head, the English name for Yakuman DS just puts the text from Toadsworth's trophy in Brawl (the only English name for the game, yes, really) into a quote. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 21:22, August 21, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.