MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
===Discourage the use of directives from a third-person perspective===
{{Early notice|option=yes|March 31, 2025}}
This proposal aims to discourage the use of making the articles read like a strategy guide from a third-person perspective. It's a big pet peeve of mine, and I cannot begin to list how many times I've seen phrases like "the player must" or "the character has to" when the gameplay experience is relative to the player, especially in open world and role-playing games. Even if the gameplay is linear and straightforward, there are still different ways of wording something.
*"Mario must stomp a Goomba to defeat it." can be written as "Mario can stomp a Goomba to defeat it."
*"The solo player must knock their rivals off the stage." can be written as "The solo player can knock their rivals off the stage to win."


==Writing guidelines==
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}} (blocked)<br>
===Consider Super Smash Bros. series titles for recurring themes low-priority===
'''Deadline''': April 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT
Something I noticed late yesterday was that the page for "Flower Fields BGM" from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (Or just Yoshi's Island from now on for simplicity) is still titled [[Yoshi's Island (theme)]], even after Nintendo Music dropped, and then I realised that some other song titles (Most notably [[Obstacle Course]], also from Yoshi's Island) just don't make a lot of sense. Then I feel it's important to note that even though this is a Mario Wiki (What?!?!?!? Huh!?!?!?) we should also take a look at the Super Smash Bros. titles for themes from other series, with the biggest example I can think of being "Meta Knight's Revenge" from Kirby Super Star, which is actually an incorrectly titled medley of the songs "Boarding the Halberd" and "Havoc Aboard the Halberd". It's also good to look at songs Super Smash Bros. is using a different title for than us, like how it uses the Japanese titles of the Donkey Kong Country OST instead of the correct ones. Between all these facts it should be obvious the track titles in Super Smash Bros. are not something the localisation team puts a whole lot of thought or effort into (Though the original Japanese dev team also mess these up sometimes).
Going back to the original point that gave me this realisation, "Yoshi's Island" is a very nondescript track title for a random stage theme which most people would look for by searching for something like "Flower Stage" or possibly even "Ground theme" (Even though that would lead to another song but still), this is especially considering the title screen theme from the game is ALSO called Yoshi's Island, and that's not even considering the Yoshi's Island world map theme from Super Mario World, which I don't know if it even has an official title (Yet, it is coming to Nintendo Music eventually) but I would bet that's ALSO YOSHI'S ISLAND.
So I am suggesting to just make Smash Bros. a VERY low-priority source for this specific small aspect of the Wiki to avoid confusion and potentially future misinformation if things go too far.


'''Proposer''': {{User|biggestman}}<br>
====Support, including level, minigame/microgame, and game articles====
'''Deadline''': November 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT
<s>{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.</s>


====Support====
====Support, excluding level, minigame/microgame, and game articles====
#{{User|biggestman}} Did you know there's a theme titled "Per this proposal" in Super Wiki Bros. Ultimate but the original title is simply "Per Proposal"? INSANE! (Per proposal)
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - the theme names given in ''Smash'' (particularly ''Brawl'' and previous) are more just general descriptions of the contexts they play in rather than actual names. Hence why [[DK Island Swing]] became "Jungle Level."
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per Doc and proposal.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per proposal. To me this feels like making a non-Mario game determine the name of a Mario-article.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Hewer}} The names are from an official source whether we like them or not. Not only that, they come from within the games themselves, putting them at the top of the naming priority list. Tracks that have gone by different names more recently can use those, but those inconsistencies shouldn't invalidate the whole source. We also accept "inconsistent" names from Smash for other subjects, e.g. [[Propeller Piranha]], so it would be odd to single out music. (Also, I'd argue "Meta Knight's Revenge" isn't incorrect, but is the name of the medley rather than of either individual song. On the topic of Kirby music, I'm pretty sure "A Battle of Friends and Bonds 2" from Kirby Star Allies was first called that in Smash before the name appeared in other sources, which would suggest Smash's names aren't all bad.)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Hewer and Salmancer in the comments. "Can" implies a level of optionality that isn't suitable for, say, Mario Party minigames, which have one win condition and no alternatives.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} The names used in the Super Smash Bros. series are from first-party games, are specific localizations of ''Super Mario'' specific material, and are localized by Nintendo of America. In my view, that is all that matters for citations, especially given most of these music tracks have not been officially localized into English through other channels. I similarly would not support a proposal to discredit the names for music tracks used in games like ''Mario & Sonic''. However, I do think this proposal is in the ballpark of a reality, which is that melodies that sometimes incorporate multiple compositions (like "Meta Knight's Revenge") and specific arrangements sometimes are given unique names. (This is not unique to the Smash Bros. series — a cursory view of the [https://vgmdb.net/ Video Game Music Database] or of officially published sheet music reveals Nintendo is often inconsistent with these names in the West.) In some installments, what is given a unique name for a particular arrangement (like "Princess Peach's Castle" from ''Melee'' and labeled as such in ''Super Smash Bros. for Wii U'') is attributed to just one piece in a subsequent game (in ''Ultimate'', this piece is named "Ground Theme" despite interlacing the "Underground BGM" in the piece as well, so while more simplistic for the Music List it is not wholly accurate, and I do not think "Ground BGM" should be called "Princess Peach's Castle" in any context other than this ''Melee'' piece). So I think it is worth scrutinizing how we name pieces that are "misattributed." However, I do not support a blanket downground of first-party Nintendo games just because we do not like some of the names.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Hewer, Salmancer, and Ahemtoday.
#{{User|Salmancer}} If I recall from Miiverse correctly, the reason many songs are not given official public names is that naming songs does require spending very valuable developmental bandwidth, something that not all projects have to spare. (Sometimes, certain major songs have names because of how important they are, while other songs don't.) Given this, I am okay with Smash Bros. essentially forcing names for songs out early because it's interface requires named songs. Names don't have to be good to be official. My line is "we all agree this uniquely identifies this subject and is official".
#{{User|Hewer}} Per my comments. I get where this proposal is coming from, but I don't think replacing "must" with "can" solves any problems.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} See my comment below.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all. This is perfectly reasonable language to use on a video game wiki.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Waluigi Time
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per others; "can" only makes sense in situations where there are multiple options, and a blanket change like this naturally ignores the cases where there's really only one option. This is something that's far better dealt with on a case-by-case basis, not all at once.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. I don't see much of a problem with the current writing - we're detailing a video game series, it's going to read a little like a strategy guide from time to time - but even if it were a problem, this isn't the solution. Wording like "The solo player can knock their rivals off the stage to win." makes it more unclear by implying there's other ways to win the minigame.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per Nintendo101 & Waluigi Time. Some scrutiny is warranted, but let's not entirely discredit Smash Bros--a series of games published and sometimes developed in first-party capacity--as a source of information.
#{{User|Mario}} Pedantic
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Change for the sake of change. Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} These are still the most recent official names. Let's not unnecessarily overcomplicate things.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} No.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
I'm not sure if this is a necessary proposal, or what it's going to accomplish in practice that isn't already handled with current organization and policy. As far as I'm aware, the ''Yoshi's Island'' examples here are just the result of no editor taking the initiative to move those pages to the new titles yet. The Nintendo Music names are the most recent and I think also fall under tier 1 of source priority, technically, so the pages should have those names, end of story. We don't need a proposal to do that.
I would say "Mario must stomp a Goomba to defeat it" is objectively true, as in, Mario stomping on a Goomba is a requirement for defeating it, without necessarily implying that defeating it is something he must do in general. The second example could similarly work if you just add "to win" on the end ("The solo player must knock their rivals off the stage to win"). I don't like "The solo player can knock their rivals off the stage to win" as much because the usage of "can" implies that there are other ways in which the player could win. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:42, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
:To me, it reads too much like a strategy guide and not a formal encyclopedic resource. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 09:43, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
::I disagree. We already avoid strategy guide-like writing by [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style#No "you"s|not referring to the reader]]. I don't see how adding a bit more ambiguity when describing what the player is meant to do helps. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:50, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
 
This is a wiki about video games, of which the majority of them of which have goals, win states, fail states, and very linear ways to reach win states. I don't think moving away from "must" or "is required to" is going to make explanations any clearer, especially for situations where there is only one possible action (the average microgame, and a decent number of minigames), situations where order is critically important (puzzle games, like levels of ''Mario vs Donkey Kong''), and situations regarding game structure (defeat the boss to unlock the next world). I would only support this proposal if it has no effect on game articles, minigame articles, and level articles. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 09:46, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
:{{@|Salmancer}} Okay, I've added the option earlier. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:52, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
 
The only benefit I can see to this is when there are alternatives available (ie, Goombas can also be defeated with other attacks... not to mention all the nonsense on Tick-Tock Clock's pages I had to remove about some missions "needing" the clock to be on to complete them, or that chunked Luma in one of the Battlerock Galaxy's level's "needing" to be hit twice, because there's a decent amount of that kind of writing covering up pure skill issues). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:48, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
 
===Standardize "Game appearances" and/or "Appearances" as the section title over "History"===
This is another proposal I've meant to create for a while now, when I saw {{@|CyonOfGaia}} accidentally add it to the sandbox page while drafting ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' level pages.


Additionally, "Yoshi's Island" and "Obstacle Course" do ''not'' refer to the original themes from ''Yoshi's Island'' - they're the names of specific arrangements of those themes from the ''Smash'' games. Maybe it's not cemented into policy, but our current approach for theme articles is to use a title referring to the original theme when available. Take "[[Inside the Castle Walls]]", for instance. There's been several different names given to arrangements of this track over the years, including "Peach's Castle", "A Bit of Peace and Quiet", and most recently in the remake of ''Thousand-Year Door'', "A Letter from Princess Peach", but we haven't and most likely aren't going to move the page to any of those. (And that doesn't mean any of those games got it wrong for not calling it "Inside the Castle Walls". It's perfectly valid to give a different name to a new arrangement.)
Currently, the "History" section is mandated. The problem I have with the title is that "History" suggests a chronological order, but that is only enforced within the series' sub-sections. Not to mention there is almost no continuity in the ''Super Mario'' franchise. Besides continuity, "History" also evokes the thought of years, and I almost never see those mentioned in articles. Also, history could ambiguously mean real life as well, which it typically does.


Basically, I don't think this would be beneficial and could potentially cause headaches down the road. I can't think of any actual examples where we're stuck with a "worse" name from ''Smash'' based on everything else I've said here, especially with Nintendo Music being a new and growing resource for track titles in the context of the original games. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:17, November 4, 2024 (EST)
"Appearances" is a more clear title because it narrows down the definition to only what the subject is as it appears in the games. "Game appearances" can be used to clarify subjects that appear only in video games and no other media, but the section heading should be changed to "Appearances" if it appears in other forms of media, too. I'll make two options in the proposal if some think "Appearances" is sufficient enough.
:Indeed, [[Ground BGM (Super Mario Bros.)|Ground BGM]] already got moved to its Nintendo Music name, despite being called "Ground Theme" in Smash (among other sources). Nintendo Music should already take priority over Smash just for being more recent. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:29, November 4, 2024 (EST)


:{{@|biggestman}} I recommend skimming through our [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policies]] for some clarity. The only reason why "[[Yoshi's Island (theme)]]" has not been moved to "Flower Fields BGM" is because no editor took the initiative yet, and another one had already turned "[[Flower Fields BGM]]" into a redirect page. That must be deleted by an admin first before the page can be moved, but that is the only reason. ''Super Smash Bros.'' and Nintendo Music are at the same tier of coverage, and because Nintendo Music is the most recent use of the piece, it should be moved. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:50, November 4, 2024 (EST)
Edit: This will affect "History of" pages like [[History of Mario]] to become {{fake link|Appearances of Mario}}, but in case that's the only part of the proposal one disagrees with, I've added Option 3, which is the same as Option 2, but will keep the "History of" title intact for all articles under [[:Category:Histories]] and its subcategories.


@LadySophie17: What do you make of [[Propeller Piranha]], [[Fire Nipper Plant]], [[Nipper Dandelion]], etc., which are named based on what Viridi [[List of Palutena's Guidance conversations#Piranha Plant|calls them]] in Smash? And more generally, why does Smash not being strictly a Mario game matter? It's still an official game from Nintendo that uses the Mario IP, and the Mario content in it is fully covered even if it's exclusive to Smash (e.g. Mario stages and special moves all get articles). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:29, November 4, 2024 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}} (blocked)<br>
:There's also the fact that Nintendo Music, which this proposal aims to prioritise, is not a Mario game either. It has a collection of music from various different franchises that just so happens to include Mario, much like Smash. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:10, November 5, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT


A lot of you have made good points, but one I don't understand or like is the one that those are the names of specifically the Super Smash Bros. versions, which is just painfully inconsistent. With very little exception remixes in Super Smash Bros. almost always use the original title in one of two ways, either using the name completely normally or by titling it (SONG NAME 1 HERE)/(SONG NAME 2 HERE) for remixes that are a relatively even split between two songs. Outside of this the only examples of "Well it COULD be the name of specifically the Smash version!!!" from every series represented are "Yoshi's Island", "Obstacle Course" and "Meta Knight's Revenge". Out of these Yoshi's Island and Obstacle Course theoretically COULD be original titles, but Meta Knight's Revenge is (probably) just meant to be named after Revenge of Meta Knight from Kirby Super Star, which is where both of the songs represented debuted, but was mistranslated. However I can't prove anything because none of these 3 Smash Bros. series remixes Japanese titles are anywhere online as far as I can tell so there's nothing to compare any of them to. There might also be examples from something like Fire Emblem or something idk I play primarily funny platformers. The point though is that if they were to name some remixes after the originals while making original titles for some it would just be so inconsistent I simply can't see a world where that's the intent. {{User:Biggestman/sig}} 13:19, November 5, 2024 (EST)
====Option 1: Support, as "Game appearances" or "Appearances"====
:I believe the Japanese name of the track was the same as the Japanese name of "Revenge of Meta Knight", but I maintain that translating it as "Meta Knight's Revenge" is not necessarily a mistake, the translators might have just thought that name was better suited for the theme specifically, especially since medleys in the Kirby series are often given different titles to the included themes ("Revenge of Meta Knight" is still not the title of either of the individual tracks included). For example, a different medley of the same two themes in Kirby's Dream Buffet is titled "Revenge of Steel Wings". Even if "Meta Knight's Revenge" is an error, though, that's one error in over a thousand track names, and one not even from the Mario franchise. One or two errors aren't enough to invalidate an entire source, especially one of this size. As for the Yoshi's Island tracks, as has already been pointed out, they should be changed anyway because Nintendo Music is the more recent source ([[Flower Field BGM]] already has been changed since this proposal was made). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:49, November 5, 2024 (EST)
<s>{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.</s>
::FWIW, that point isn't meant to be an argument against this specific change anyway, it's "we already shouldn't be prioritizing those names for article titles regardless of the outcome of this proposal, and here's why". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:13, November 5, 2024 (EST)
Ok so now that it's been a few days I have very quickly realised that I very much said a bad reason this change should be implemented. I just realised that all of these titles have already been moved but I have since realised a somewhat more understandable reason for it. If a new Smash game came out and reused these titles then according to our rules they would need to be moved back to those titles again, wouldn't they? Would it make sense to move Flower Fields BGM back to the less descriptive title just because a game reused a (debatably) worse title? Overall though I don't care too much about the result, even when I started this proposal, my impatience just got to me too early. {{User:Biggestman/sig}} 11:09, November 7, 2024 (EST)
:Yes, that's how recent name policy works. We should choose what name to use based on what the most recent official source says, not what we subjectively prefer. I personally feel like "Flower Field BGM" isn't much less generic than "Yoshi's Island". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:38, November 7, 2024 (EST)
::Not a simple yes/no answer, actually. If they're just arrangements again, then no, we wouldn't move the pages. If they added the original tracks from the SNES version and used those names, then they would probably be moved. (However, you might still be able to make a decent argument for keeping the Nintendo Music names on a recency basis considering it's a live service?) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:48, November 7, 2024 (EST)


I've actually been mulling over a proposal like this, but for names in general, not just themes. We generally don't consider out-of-franchise content as a source of a recent name if the original ''Super Mario'' franchise supersedes it; for example, Podoboo, which is still in use over Lava Bubble in ''The Legend of Zelda'' franchise. I don't see why the same thing can't be said for ''Super Smash Bros.'', especially now with its reduced coverage. For that matter, possibly breaking it down to a per-''series'' basis (like how "Gold Goomba" was the most recent name in the ''Super Mario'' series despite being "Golden Goomba" in the most recent ''Mario Party'')? It might not be a bad idea to establish a new rule over this. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
====Option 2: Support, with only "Appearances"====
#{{User|Hewer}} Honestly, I don't mind this idea. "Appearances" communicates what the section is about a bit more clearly than "History". (Though option 1 doesn't make sense to me, it would just create a completely needless inconsistency.)


===Decide how to prioritize PAL English names===
<s>{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice.</s>
As with [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Decide how to handle the "latest portrayal" section in infoboxes|my previous proposal]], this one aims at getting a consistent method of how PAL names are used alongside NTSC names. One thing that I noticed is that the priority of some of these names are inconsistent, like [{{fullurl:Mini Bowser|redirect=no}} Mini Bowser], which redirects to [[Koopa Kid]] rather than link to [[Mini Bowser (toy)|the name actually used in NTSC countries]]. Other pages, like [[Bowser Party]], are disambiguations between the ''[[Mario Party 10]]'' game mode and the ''[[Mario Party 7]]'' [[Bowser Time|event]] that is only known as "Bowser Party" in PAL regions.


[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg This map] shows which countries use these different systems. The terms go beyond just color conversion; in terms of English, the PAL system is used in countries like the United Kingdom (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think Australia and New Zealand too), while the NTSC system is used in North America, specifically in the United States and Canada. [[MarioWiki:Naming]] says that the North American name takes priority, which means that Mini Bowser would link to the toy and Bowser Party would redirect to the section in ''Mario Party 10'', potentially among other pages, although tophats linking to pages with alternate PAL names will remain.
====Option 3: Support, but keep "History of" prefix====
<s>{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Third choice.</s>


Therefore, I am proposing four options:
====Oppose====
*NTSC>PAL, in which when linking pages, the page with the name in NTSC English or all-English takes priority over other pages sharing the same PAL name, even if it isn't as significant. If another page with the same name in PAL English exists, it can be linked to in the tophat.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style#History|MarioWiki:Manual of Style § History]]: "Appearances in the History section are organized according to the international release date of defined franchise (as opposed to general franchises), series, and independent titles, regardless of the "media" form the appearance takes." To my understanding, this means history sections ''are'' sorted by the release date of the respective games/other media contained within the section, so the "History" section is in fact chronological. Besides that, an "Appearances" section, especially as an article title such as "Appearances of Mario", implies that the section/article is just a list of the media in which the subject appears, when these sections actually contain a detailed description of each past appearance, which is the dictionary definition of "history".
*NTSC=PAL, in which pages that share the same name in both NTSC and PAL English appear in a disambiguation page regardless of whether the name is used in NTSC English multiple times or not. This is already done with [[Bowser Party]].
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} needless change for change's sake
*NTSC<PAL, in which pages that share the same name in PAL English have the highest priority name linked to it, even if it doesn't have that name in NTSC English but the other pages does, in which case it will redirect to the higher-priority PAL name and the lower-priority NTSC (or all-English) page will be linked to in the tophat in the Redirect template. This has been done with [[Mini Bowser]].
#{{User|Ray Trace}} No.
*Do nothing - do I even have to explain this?
#{{User|Technetium}} It's fine as is.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Altendo}}<br>
====Comments====
'''Deadline''': November 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT
So would pages like [[History of Mario]] would be moved to "Appearances of Mario"? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:13, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
:I'll make an option for that. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:52, March 24, 2025 (EDT)


====NTSC>PAL====
@ThePowerPlayer: History sections aren't really chronological because they're sorted by series. For example, on [[History of Mario]], Super Mario Odyssey comes before Mario Kart 64. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:36, March 25, 2025 (EDT)
#{{User|Altendo}} I think that abiding by SMW:NAMING is the best option. Yes, Koopa Kid is more notable than Mini Bowser toys, but if this is an American English wiki, might as well make pages link to the one that actually are named like that in NTSC.
:Fair enough. They do still chronicle all of the past appearances of a subject, though, which is what "history" means. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 22:47, March 25, 2025 (EDT)
#{{User|Mari0fan100}} I've seen courses and vehicles in ''Mario Kart Wii'' that have names that differ between the NTSC and PAL versions. If the articles to those courses and vehicles use the NTSC version, shouldn't other things use the NTSC version as well?


====NTSC=PAL====
--[[User:Weegie baby|Weegie baby]] ([[User talk:Weegie baby|talk]]) 04:35, March 26, 2025 (EDT)==New features==
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I think this is the best solution — completely deprioritizing the PAL names doesn't quite seem right to me.
===Allow pages for the Captain N episodes where Donkey Kong is a central character===


====NTSC<PAL====
''[[Captain N: The Game Master]]'' is an odious travesty of a cartoon that has a page on here because Donkey Kong is a recurring character. It's classified as a "Guest Appearance" by [[Mariowiki:Coverage]] and that's really the best spot for it: Donkey Kong only appears in a few episodes (7 out of 34), is not central to the premise of the show and beside him being there, the cartoon doesn't pull much from Mario or related properties.


====Do nothing====
Most of Donkey's appearance in the show are padding or sight gags, but three episodes stand out for having him be central to their plot:


====Comments====
*'''Simon the Ape-Man''': Simon Belmont gets a big bonk on the head, believes himself to be DK Jr, and tries to rejoin his "father" while the other protagonists try to stop him:
can i ask for some more examples? i'm having a bit of trouble fully grasping what you mean [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 20:11, November 4, 2024 (EST)
*'''Queen of the Apes''': An experiment by Dr. Wily causes Donkey Kong, Mother Brain, and Game Boy to exchange their brains.
:The Mini Bowser situation, for instance:
*'''The Lost City of Kongoland''': The protagonists explore Donkey Kong's dimension and help him get rid of plant monsters.
 
I believe the wiki would be served by allowing pages for these three episodes for the following episodes:


:*NTSC>PAL: Mini Bowser would link to the [[Mini Bowser (toy)|page actually named "Mini Bowser"]] instead of [[Koopa Kid]] (who is known as Mini Bowser in PAL English)
*These are Extremely Important bits of Donkey Kong lore that warrant a complete summary instead of having incomplete fragments spread out over the involved character's pages.
:*NTSC=PAL: Mini Bowser would be a disambiguation page between Koopa Kid and the Mini Bowser toy
*It will make it easier for other editors to summarize content for the Definitely-About-To-Exist-Any-Days-Nows  pages of [[Crossover with Castlevania]], [[Crossover with Mega Man]], [[Crossover with Metroid]] and [[Crossover with Kid Icarus]] pages without having to suffer the psychic damage of watching Captain N themselves
:*NTSC<PAL: Mini Bowser would continue to redirect to Koopa Kid.
*The wiki would only find itself blessed and see its quality greatly increases by having more content describing the actions of Captain N Simon Belmont, who is AWESOME.
:*Do nothing: Nothing changes.


:Hope this makes more sense. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 21:07, November 4, 2024 (EST)
Mariowiki:Coverage notes "Please note that a proposal should be made before a game is classified as a "guest appearance", as this is a somewhat tricky distinction and there could easily be disagreement in the community about the extent to which coverage should be granted to any given non-Super Mario game." so that's what I am doing. Nevertheless I am certain I made a perfect case and everyone will agree with me.  
::So in the first option, "Mini Bowser (toy)" would lose its identifier? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:19, November 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Basically. The tophat will say, "This article is about the toy. For the characters known as "Mini Bowsers" in Europe, as Koopa Kid." I prefer abiding by SMW:NAMING by prioritizing NTSC names over PAL names. Basically, the current Mini Bowser (toy) page will be moved to Mini Bowser, which will no longer redirect to Koopa Kid. For people who have only owned NTSC copies, this is more straightforward, as many would be unaware that Koopa Kid is known as Mini Bowser without having a PAL copy. As for Bowser Party, if Option 1 passes, it will redirect to the section in ''Mario Party 10'', with a tophat leading to Bowser Time. If Option 2 passes, Mini Bowser would become a disambiguation page between Koopa Kid and Mini Bowser (toy). If Option 3 passes, Bowser Party would redirect to Bowser Time and would have a tophat leading to the ''Mario Party 10'' section. If Option 4 passes, well... nothing changes, making everything remain inconsistent.


:::So, to answer your question, yes, the identifier will be removed. The only other page with the exact same name minus the identifier is simply the redirect to Koopa Kid, who is only known as "Mini Bowser" in European English, and SMW:NAMING prioritizes American English names. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 07:15, November 5, 2024 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Glowsquid}}<br>
::::Now that I think about it, couldn't the identifier for the Mini Bowser toy be removed anyway? There's no actual article named Mini Bowser. For that matter, I thought it was discouraged to use the terms NTSC and PAL now in regards to English, especially now that region-locking is mostly a thing of the past. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT
:::::I'm pretty sure whether the identifier can be removed for that reason is what this proposal is trying to decide. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:06, November 9, 2024 (EST)
====Support (allow pages for these three Captain N episodes)====
#{{User|Glowsquid}} - I don't know who this "Glowsquid" is but I do wish to subscribe to his newspaper.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense, and it's roughly equivalent to what exists of our [[Saturday Supercade]] coverage, but for a series that's far more documented. Per proposal.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal. Monkey noises.
#{{User|Apikachu68}} Considering the poor coverage [https://captainn.fandom.com/wiki/Simon_the_Ape-Man of] [https://captainn.fandom.com/wiki/Queen_of_the_Apes these] [https://captainn.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lost_City_of_Kongoland episodes] on Fandom's Captain N Wiki, each only featuring a short summary of the episode, as well as the general lack of maintenance on the site, I strongly support this proposal.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per proposal.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - <s>Honestly I kinda like the Lost City episode. It helps it's the first time DK has a tie and treehouse.</s>
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Insert DK64 clip of Donkey Kong saying "OKAY!" here.


==New features==
====Status Quo (no pages)====
''None at the moment.''


==Removals==
====Comments====
''None at the moment.''
If this proposal passes, will we add an infobox for the ''[[Captain N: The Game Master]]'' episodes? [[User:Apikachu68|Apikachu68]] ([[User talk:Apikachu68|talk]]) 20:45, March 25, 2025 (EDT)
: why wouldn't we. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 22:31, March 25, 2025 (EDT)


==Changes==
===Create an article for Character Icons===
===Encourage game-related "icon"-type images to have consistent file dimensions with each other when applicable to their origins===
Since [[Emblem|emblems]] have an article, I think character icons should have an article too. I was thinking it could be a gallery. There are just so many character icons for just one character (just see how many Mario’s had)! It could anlso have the same structure as [[Gallery:Emblem]]. And it wouldn’t be the first gallery to not have an article talking about the subject. Take “[[Gallery:Orange Yoshi]]” as an example. What do you think?


[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Prioritize sprite/tile uploads that have their original file parameters (or clean divisions of them)|My last proposal]] related to this subject had too many holes in it due to being too wide to make an actual rule on the subject. Indeed, not all sprites really need the blank space, not all "icons" are sprites at all. To recap:
'''Proposer''': {{User|Weegie baby}}<br>
;this looks good:
'''Deadline''': so, I don’t remember when the deadlines of porposals are and don’t know where to look, so someone tell me, please.
<gallery heights=64 widths=64>
====Support====
MKDD_Mario.png
MKDD_Luigi.png
ToadIcon-MKDD.png
PeachIcon-MKDD.png
MKDD_Yoshi.png
MKDD_DK.png
BowserMKDD.png
MKDD_Wario.png
</gallery>


;this does not:
====Oppose====
<gallery heights=72 widths=72>
MarioMPT.png
Luigi MPT.png
Shy Guy MPT.png
Peach MPT.png
Yoshi MPT.png
DK MPT.png
Bowser MPT.png
WarioMPT.png
</gallery>


Notice how half of the MPT ones (second row) are awkwardly, inconsistently stretched in various gross ways that makes some of the pixels be rectangles, and none are at a proper size relative to each other - this is an obsessive-compulsive spriter's worst nightmare. Meanwhile, the MKDD ones (first row) look crisp, clean, and are at a nice size relative to each other. Why is this? Because since they are icons, they are programmed to occupy the same type of space in select screens and player standings in-game. They're ''supposed'' to be at around the same size, which is accomplished through the small amount of empty space some have in the upper right corners - which the origin images have in the game's files. We should reflect this for the simple reason that we're only going to be putting these in galleries and table cells with each other ''anyway'', so it makes the most sense to have them take up the same amount of space here as well. They should either be at their raw parameters, or if they are cropped, cropped to the exact same size as all the others for that type in that game so as to not screw up formatting and table cell sizes (and we shouldn't be increasing the size of sprites that are at this size by default anyway). This goes for selection icons, rank icons, map icons, that sort of thing. Cropping them down needlessly leads to the grossness that the second gallery there displays.
====Comments====


This is already something of an unofficial rule on here; a majority of the games with this sort of icon have them uploaded at a consistent size already for the same pragmatic reasons I just listed. I'm just trying to make this more clear-cut. It's like how "don't optimize images with color-changing metadata" is a rule - most people can't tell the difference, but it minorly affects the accuracy and presentation, so that's why that rule is in place. This is also for the "accuracy and presentation" reasoning. Also, I fail to see what the difference is between this and preferring screenshots be uploaded at native res rather than boosted resolution.
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''


'''{{color|purple|THIS DOES NOT COVER THE RARE INSTANCES GAME ICONS ACTUALLY ''DO'' HAVE DIFFERENT SIZES AS STORED IN-GAME.}}''' Instances of that are quite rare, especially for character icons that swap locations, but they can happen. Since they aren't the same size to begin with, there's nothing to match up with. It also does not apply to ones that are extrapolated from a singular group image containing all of them.
==Changes==
===Merge moves exclusive to forms with their respective forms, leaving main article links if they are part of another article. Also replace the Fly article with a list.===
Mario’s many, many forms have granted him oh so many forms. These forms grant him many new moves, like [[Cape Mario|swinging a cape]], [[Flying Squirrel Mario|jumping in the air]], or even a slew of [[Link|Link’s moves]]! Now, how many of these have articles? (Excluding [[Tail whip]])


'''{{color|purple|PLEASE NOTE THAT MOST IMAGES OF THIS TYPE ON THE WIKI ALREADY FOLLOW THIS RULE.}}''' Attempting to do the opposite, therefore, will take more effort for less reward.
If you guessed zero, +/- Tail whip, you’re right. This makes sense: If I go to an article on a form, then I want to see all of that form’s nuances. What good is it to have some parts of the benefits conferred by a power-up on a separate page? Imagine if [[Builder Mario]] had an article dedicated to swinging its hammer, a core portion of the abilities Builder Mario grants. Imagine if [[Mole Yoshi]] had an entire article dedicated to its ability to dig, despite that being the sole move it can do with a button press and digging being its entire point of existing. Imagine if operating the [[Super Pickax]] had an entire article separate from the Super Pickax, even though the player doesn’t even have the choice to hold a Super Pickax without using it. (Yes, the act of using a Super Pickax has a name!)


'''{{color|purple|ADDITIONALLY, I WANT TO CLARIFY THAT THIS IS NOT SPECIFICALLY STATING THEY NEED TO KEEP THEIR NATIVE DIMENSIONS.}}''' Rather, it is saying that if you ''do'' decide to crop them, you should crop them to consistent parameters, ie, the width of the widest one and the height of the tallest one. Having to resize images on an individual basis is tedious and can lead to extra HTML bloating the page that would be a non-issue if they were uploaded at the same size to begin with.  
But we’re already doing this, just under the veneer of putting it under existing articles. These articles, for example:


'''{{color|purple|EDIT:}}'''
*[[Shell dash]] ([[Shell Mario]])
Here's a better illustration of why I think this is necessary:<br>
*[[Dive]] (Claw dives of [[Cat Mario]])
https://www.marioboards.com/attachments/49667.png
*[[Drill Spin]] ([[Propeller Mario]])
<br>Notice how with them cropped to content, their vertical (and horizontal if they were stacked, thanks to Klap Trap's muzzle and Diddy's hat) positions are all over the place. To someone with OCD, that's maddening. Not unlike [https://www.xkcd.com/1015/ bad kerning]. This is what this proposal hopes to avoid. And no, that's not something a "rawsize" thing can do, that's gallery-only - and this inconsistent positioning would be an even bigger issue with the images in a gallery, since those ''don't'' have positioners available. And while technically, HTML ''can'' fix the positioning on the table (but again, not in a gallery), that would require a bunch of finagling span classes that would bloat the page's byte count unnecessarily - not to mention take potentially hours of trial and error depending on the image amount - when the obvious solution is to give the images the consistent parameters they were deliberately made to have - and yes, that's deliberate in more than just "limited by sprite parameters," because they used them to position them accurately in the character/level select, as I am doing with this table.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
I think this is a flawed line of thinking. For a much as shell dashing and Drill Spinning are moves that can be used by specific forms, they are also benefits conferred by specific forms and power-ups. We should be focusing efforts to improve coverage for such moves on the page for the power-up, as someone who wants to learn everything Shell Mario can do probably shouldn’t have to also check shell dash. Shell Mario should say that shell dashing enemies doesn’t start a point chain. Shell Mario should say if how many hits it takes to defeat a boss with the shell dash. Shell Mario should mention the unique movement opportunities/restrictions of the shell dash compared to base Mario. There shouldn’t be two different articles going into technical detail on a single topic if we can help it, not least because of the potential of a correction to one article not being applied to the other. And if we can only have one super detailed article, then it ought to be the form.
'''Deadline''': November 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support - consistent icons (change the few remaining icon images and make it a general rule for the future)====
Imagine if we extended the current situation to other named moves of forms? Would [[Mega Yoshi]] be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Tail Swipe, on the basis of it having the technical detail of stalling Yoshi’s fall? Even though one needs to know how to Tail Swipe to beat all Mega Yoshi areas? Would [[Penguin Mario]] be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Belly Slide? Which is main unique thing about it, given Ice Balls are from [[Ice Mario]] and good swimming is from [[Frog Mario]]? If we gave the field form of [[Luiginoid Formation#Ball|Luiginary Ball]] a page, would it be.a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Ball Hammer? Again, something necessary to complete the ball's tutorial area?
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - ''Icon'' haz dead, never-funny-in-the-first-place memes about fast food sandwiches?
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} - Accurate to how the graphic or texture is stored in game.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per fast food sandwiches
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|blueberrymuffin}} Per proposal.
#{{user|wildgoosespeeder}} I don't bother cropping anything for this kind of reason. [[tcrf:The Cutting Room Floor|The Cutting Room Floor]] doesn't do something like this because of prioritizing consistency in dimensions, where possible.


====Oppose - who needs consistency? (do nothing)====
As such, this proposal aims to just move all the technical details of moves that can only be performed by power-up forms to the form’s page. The section remains, because it’s a part of the move’s conceptual history, using a <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> article link to move over to the form for the nitty gritty on how everything about that specific implementation works. For reference look at how [[Dash]] handles the [[Dash (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)]] ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dash&diff=4431004&oldid=4421941 Relevant Edit]) and the [[Spin Dash]] ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dash&diff=4435629&oldid=4431024 Relevant Edit]). Instead of restating the entire move but trying to be a little looser about the mechanics than the main article, it has a note saying “this exists and is a version of the thing this article is about”, and then sends the reader to the main article. It's a more efficient use of bits and our readers' time.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Rawsize exists.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} There's no sense in ''deliberately'' translating the functional limitations of a game onto a wiki. The site's educational purpose dictates that official material shown on a wiki be inherently recontextualized, and showing that material at a different scale than originally intended is in line with that idea. Even taking into account the niche interests of a sprite enthusiast (which TBH is fair, the wiki is a gateway to Mario material for anybody), the sprites in and of themselves are accurate to how they were extracted when you view them on their dedicated file pages; it's only their appearance on mainspace pages that is subject to alterations, and what to what degree that is beneficial is better scrutinized on a case-by-case basis than through a global proposal. TLDR If the sprites are too uncomfortably big just resize them, or use rawsize like Waluigi Time says.
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Per WT.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all. This can easily be taken care of by either a gallery or a table's settings, I am very sure of that. We don't need to be unnecessarily tampering with perfectly cropped files. I am not 100% sure of the technical site of the wiki but I am very sure that there are better ways to go about fixing sizing of things in tables not being adequate without just having to overhaul image uploads entirely, rather than just playing around with a table.
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} Seems like a huge amount of work for what is... honestly imperceptible to 99.9% of users such as in your example. Busywork for the sake of busywork.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. I see no real benefit from this.
#{{user|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Waluigi Time. We already have tools capable of representing these icons more accurately to their in-game versions as necessary without requiring deadzones or other such things to be baked into the image itself. In fact, baking it into the image itself can cause issues when attempting to use the same image on different pages not fitted for them; such as how the image on the infobox for [[Blooper (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)]] is markedly smaller because it retains the blank space for the sake of [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch) bestiary|the bestiary article]]. While we should strive for accuracy, we shouldn't let it get in the way of making the information actually accessible and readable; besides, if someone wanted the raw, original images, including any blank space around them, they would likely check The Spriter's Resource, not us.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per Koopa Con Carne. Zero readers care if an asset is cropped to content to dimensions in the power of 8 or if they have the ripped dimensions, especially if all said images are there to illustrate a gallery and especially if there is copious amounts of empty space just to pad the image to appropriate dimensions for a game engine. We aren't a game engine (modern game engines are perfectly capable of having textures in resolutions not in powers of 8 by the way), official websites such as the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe's official website [[:File:MK8DX Baby Luigi Icon.png|crop to content]] because image editors know that it doesn't need to be in those dimensions (let's not get into how these assets are actually made, they're scaled down in the first place 100% for game engine reasons) icons should be cropped to editor's discretion without bludgeoning editors over the head about it, we should prioritize optimization and readability over faithfulness to asset dimensions. I can see cases where consistent sizes can work out, namely the character icons as listed in this proposal, but the general rule ''should'' be crop to content, but leave some in exceptions in regards to formatting tables, not the other way around.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per all, especially Koopa con Carne and Ray Trace.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Some really small icons like the Super Smash Bros. series stock icons would look really bad if they were resized to be consistent with Mario Kart ranking icons.
#{{User|Mario}} The additional caveats in the proposal trying to address this issue is nice I guess but it makes the proposal much less clear in what it's trying to accomplish and it comes off as this user trying to bludgeon over their approach to these images in opposition with several other people's while tacking on qualifications and caveats after the fact. It doesn't help that the terminology of the proposal is imprecise (what is a "game-related 'icon'-type image"?? Does the proposal apply to whatever is a "game related 'non-icon' type image"?)  Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. I don't see the point in doing this.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I will reiterate what I said below: if folks want to maintain unified dimensions around certain assets, like the ones in the ''Diddy Kong Pilot'' example, that is completely fine and okay to do. I agree it looks nice. However, folks should have the freedom to choose whether they want to do that or not with the tables and templates they have developed. To experiment. I agree with the opposition that cropping to the visual content of an asset is not inherently destructive, while recognizing there are real examples on this wiki where assets benefit from having unified dimensions outside of galleries. But those were choices made because they are visually appealing and convey information - not out of a unique reverence for how computer engines spatially store assets, and while I know this proposal is not explicitly advocating for that, it derives from similar arguments made in the previous one, and I wanted to touch upon that here. We adjust assets all the time for the sake of illustrative intent. We assemble disembodied sprites. Adjust/add colors to reflect in-game appearances (especially when they are not actually coded as such for older consoles). We pose models. We approximate lighting conditions. We crop out screenshot details for a focused view. We narrow displays to omit details that the player typically has [[:File:MagmawNSMBU.png#File history|no way of seeing]]. From my experience, none of these choices have been considered controversial, and they should not be. They are not dissimilar from {{wp|taxidermy}}, {{wp|Conservation and restoration of paintings|art restoration}}, and similar curatorial techniques that are exercised in museums worldwide. To me, cropping to visual content - the pixels that people can actually see - is no different from these methods and not an inherent problem. If folks want to keep unified dimensions around the assets they are working with or see use outside of galleries, that is fine and good. This is the opinion of some other folks in the opposition, like fellow ripper Ray Trace, as evident [[:File:WarioMASATOG.png#File history|here]]. However, if folks do not want to do that, or use tables built on the expectation that assets they are using are cropped to content, or they are cropping the content around assets that are only found in galleries, I think they should have that freedom too.
#{{User|MCD}} Per all.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} No. No, both look good in their own right. Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all.


====Comments====
This does not affect moves of non-powered up characters that are modified by the power-up. Flying Squirrel Mario’s high Spin Jumps stay on [[Spin Jump]], Frog Mario's and Penguin Mario’s swimming stay on [[Swim]], Tanooki Mario’s Tail Spin stays on [[Roll]], and so on. This is in addition to these modified versions of moves being written about on their form’s pages. (No, shell dash is not a modified dash. It's a new action that dashing happens to trigger, as indicated by the requirement of dashing and alternate method of crouching on a slope) This proposal does not affect projectiles whose existence is broader than their associated power-up, namely [[Fireball]], [[Ice Ball]], [[Hammer]], and [[Bubble]]. Builder Boxes are [[Crate]]s, so they fall into this bucket. (Superball would be included, but it was merged with [[Superball Mario]] years ago and is not included.) This also does not affect character/power-up hybrids. [[Yoshi]]'s [[Swallow]], [[Egg Throw]], et al, [[Baby DK]]'s [[DK Dash Attack]], [[Diddy Kong]]'s [[Diddy Attack]] and [[Barrel Jet]], and [[Rambi]]'s [[Super move|Supercharge]] and [[Charge (Donkey Kong Country series)|Charge]] are examples of these exclusions. This is because in some cases the character can use the move without being a power-up, usually because they are playable in a non-power-up capacity. While this isn’t true in every case, it makes sense to extend this grace to all character/power-up hybrids. [[SMB2 Mario]] is bizarre, but [[Crouching High Jump|charge jump]] is ultimately unaffected. It’s a move of the normal player characters in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' proper, and the article doesn’t have a ''Super Mario Maker 2'' section to cut down anyway. I’d advocate for adding more charge jump content to the SMB2 Mario article, but that’s not part of the proposal.
{{@|Waluigi Time}} - Rawsize doesn't help for tabular data. Only for galleries. Only way to get it there would be to separately size each cell, and even that doesn't keep them in the correct position within the cell. Wouldn't it be more pragmatic to just have the images at the correct size rather than having to mess with the HTML each time? And we do indeed use these for tabular data, like ghost times, tennis rivals, that sort of thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:43, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:And would that not be easily solved by displaying the image at its native resolution (or at least consistent resolutions for all of them) and centering it? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:51, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::No, it absolutely wouldn't. Because not all the icons are themselves centered, such as the MKDD ones above. They all come out of the lower-left corner. And that's not getting into how some games have a variant with an actual shaped background alongside clear-background ones, like ''[https://www.spriters-resource.com/wii/mariostrikerscharged/sheet/195218/ Strikers Charged]'' for example. It'd make the most sense to match those up relative to where the square bounds are for their respective size, IMO. Also, when they need shrunk for smaller tables, it's easier to do that when they have the same x-y parameters anyway so you don't have to check every. Last. One. And do the math each time. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:52, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::{{@|Waluigi Time}} - Rawsize also doesn't work for sizing images down. Only sizing them as-is or sizing them up. So it's still not a perfect solution for all occasions anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:48, October 29, 2024 (EDT)
:All of these things can be fixed using <code>text-align: center</code>, <code>vertical-align: middle</code>, and the inherent ability of tables to size columns and rows based on their contents. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 20:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
::I already said that's not true, because not all of them are centered in their origin. If you want DK's image's left border touching the left border and his right border touching the right border, and the same to go for Luigi, that will absolutely not work unless they are uploaded at their intended size. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:58, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|Koopa con Carne}} - I thought you didn't want math to be forced onto the site. In order to resize them consistently if they aren't uploaded at the intended consistent size, you have to go through ''every single one'' and check their sizes individually, ''then'' apply whatever size change also individually in order to be consistent. Keeping them as they are intentionally incorporated into the game is much cleaner on both counts. If mediawiki had a "50%" in addition to the pixel resizing, that wouldn't be an issue, but they don't. And applying a same-pixel-size on sprites with different base sizes is just dirty. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:04, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
Perceptive readers probably realize that this policy would gut [[Fly]], an article entirely about a recurring skill of certain forms/capability of items. An article consisting entirely of <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> templates would be bad, right? Au contraire, for this is by design. Fly is trapped in a purgatory where it can’t actually say anything meaningful because all of the data for each of the forms, abilities, and items it’s trying to cover should be on the articles for those things. So it’s a listicle of every game you can fly in with cliff notes about how they work. I guess its a directory for all of the flying skills, but having it be a traditional article makes using Fly as a directory inefficient. At this point, we should embrace the list structure and use it for something lists are good for, comparisons between games. I have compiled a list version of Fly on a [[User:Salmancer/List of methods of flight|userpage]], based on the existing [[List of power-ups]]. It’s messy and incomplete but I think it’s better than the Fly article. Should this proposal pass, this list will replace the article. As the various contexts of Fly are not the same kind of action to begin with, the article will become {{Fake link|List of methods of flight}}. This broadens the scope to fit all of the components. (Note how "flight" is not a proper noun).
:You're misconstruing my point about math on the wiki. I never suggested curbing the use of math in the back end by editors (even then, I don't recall ever actually mathing my way through editing a page other than establishing sizes of things like images and charts). It was strictly in reference to the math that is displayed, for one reason or another, to readers, specifically how serviceable it is for articles to show readers more complex formulas versus simple tallies of elements in a level. I've long digressed though, lol.<br>The issues you bring up are solvable on a case-by-case basis. I like consistency and tidiness, too, however, those ought to have a healthy marriage with the wiki's primary interest to educate. [[Mario_Kart_Tour_race_points_system#Object interactions|Here]], you'll notice I purposefully enlarged the icon for the Giant Banana item relative to the regular banana peel, because it used to look about the same size, which was odd. I understand where you're coming from and I support giving a sense of scale to sprites of a certain type in a row if it would otherwise look too messy or unnatural, but I don't believe that has to be enforced among all these sprites indiscriminately. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:23, October 28, 2024 (EDT), edited 19:03, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::Well this proposal isn't about "all sprites," it is specifically about icons within a particular family, ie, all MKDD character select icons are one family, all MKDD item icons are another family, all MKW select icons are yet another family, etc. etc. etc. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:30, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::I understand. That's what I meant when I said "sprites of a certain type in a row". That's a tad wordy, so I guess "sprite family" can indeed be used for the purposes of this proposal instead. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:59, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::OK so.... what is the negative you are seeing to this? It seems like you agree with what the proposal actually aims to do, so I'm not really understanding your opposition. It's like how "don't optimize images with color-changing metadata" is a rule - most people can't tell the difference, but it affects the accuracy and presentation, so that's why that rule is in place. This is also for the "accuracy and presentation" reasoning. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:07, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::::What I agree with, is that assets extracted from the game shouldn't be tampered with before they are uploaded on the wiki. The native size and optimizations should still inherently be part of the asset. What I disagree with, is that such a principle should extend to their presentation on mainspace articles. An image gallery is not a sprite sheet, it's '''demonstrative'''. If you think a gallery of assets can benefit from a few fine adjustments to accommodate scale and aesthetic sensibility, by all means do it. I agree the Shy Guy icon you show in the proposal looks too large and should be scaled down a little, as I did with the giant banana I mentioned previously. Enforcing the standard you propose across a demonstrative gallery is shifting the priority on technical accuracy. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:19, October 29, 2024 (EDT)
::::::The actual argument of this proposal is different from the last one. This isn't specifically aiming for native dimensions, though that would still be the "easy way" imo. This allows for cropping as long as the cropping is to a consistent size for said related assets. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:40, October 29, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|UltraMario}} - You... ''do'' realize that ''cropping'' the files is where the "tampering" comes into play, right? If they're displayed as they are in the game, they are ''un''tampered with. Cropping them down is, by definition, tampering with them. I think you need to reword that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:07, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
[[Tail whip]] was created after I planned this proposal but before I proposed it. If this proposal passes, it gets merged into [[Raccoon Mario]] for 2D games and [[Tanooki Mario]] for 3D games. This policy devastates Tail Whip in the same way Fly is. Tail Whip can keep its categories as a redirect.  While the move may be used by multiple forms, the most basic forms with the attack are more than capable of storing Tail whip's mechanics for the improved versions of [[White Raccoon Mario]] and [[White Tanooki Mario]] to refer to later. This matches how Penguin Mario defers to Ice Mario and Ice Ball. [[Tail]]s are also on Tail Whip, but Tail handles using Tail and has no need to be listed on another article. Even if we wanted a complete list of games with with tail attacks, Raccoon Mario already mentions Tail. (The situation is also similar to [[Cape]], which used to compile the yellow capes of [[Cape Mario]] and [[Superstar Mario]] into a listicle before this [[Talk:Cape#Clean up this article to include only information in the Super Smash Bros. series|proposal]] reduced it to only the Smash Bros. attack.)


{{@|Fun With Despair}} - Except most of them are ''already'' like this - this is just making an unofficial rule we've used for years an official one for practicality. In this case, doing the ''opposite'' would be busywork. And making them consistent is busywork I am willing to ''do''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:35, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
Oh yeah and I guess [[Strike of Intuition]] is caught in the crosshairs of this since it is a move exclusive to [[Detective Peach]]. Given everything else, it gets merged too.
:Besides, being a lot of work hasn't stopped [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Require citations for names in other languages|proposals that take even more work to implement]] from passing. It's a flimsy reason to oppose a change. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:02, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::Not opposing because it's a lot of work, opposing because it's a lot of work in service of something that is unnoticed and not cared about by the vast majority of users. The citation proposal is a bad example because that is actually something important to the accuracy of information on the wiki. This doesn't do much of anything at all besides force small edits to many old images.--[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 18:33, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::That could be said about proposals in general. If it doesn't matter to you, wouldn't it make more sense to not vote at all? If I see a proposal on a subject I don't care about, I just don't vote. After all, if it matters to ''someone'', it matters in general and shouldn't just be opposed because of what amounts to "I don't care about this." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:36, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::I'd argue a majority (or at least significant number) of readers likely don't care either way about citations for names in other languages. But that doesn't mean people who do care about the change don't exist, or that it's inherently a bad change. I think "eh who cares" is also a flimsy reason to oppose a change. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:38, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


Wait, so if this is already often the way things are, will the oppose option change that? That would mean this proposal lacks a "do nothing" option. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:07, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Salmancer}}<br>
:Oppose is a "do nothing." I'm not going to include an option for what I would consider a ''negative'' change. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:28, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': March 31, 2025, 23:59 GMT
::Wasn't suggesting you should, just got confused since you were making comments about "doing the opposite". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:31, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::That was mainly directed at the "too much work" argument. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:32, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|Camwoodstock}} - Things like the TTYDr bestiary images are not covered by this proposal, only small icon sprites that are intended to be square anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:46, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
====Merge moves and Listify Fly: Merge moves to forms, and convert [[Fly]] into a list with the name {{Fake link|List of methods of flight}}====
:For the record, we know that wasn't exactly what the proposal was targetting, we mostly mentioned it as it's a pretty striking example of how including these transparent margins in the images themselves can backfire (besides, it's one of the most recent examples of such a thing happening.) We hope that makes sense, anyway. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:48, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Salmancer}} Per proposal.
::I still don't see why it's preferable to be forced to use the HTML to make them somewhat close-ish to accurate when simply letting it have the one or two columns of blank pixels that it's supposed to have on one side of it would look better for practical reasons anyway. It's a lot simpler and doesn't hurt anything to do. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:52, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::Because sometimes, you ''don't'' want them to be entirely accurate; while an original-resolution image might be wanted for, say, a gallery or a table, in an article, template, or especially in an infobox, you probably don't want the original size and would want something a lot more readily scalable, without transparent margins baked into the image that you need to futz with. At best, it would be too small to add a proper caption to; at worst, you basically gut the clarity of the image itself. For example, while not an "icon" in the sense of the original proposal, the articles for various objects from [[Super Mario Land]] upscale the images outside of their original context. Infoboxes on articles such as the [[Lift Block]] would be rendered borderline incomprehensible if the images were not enlarged like this. And the grown image size is accomplished not via baking it into the files themselves, but via using fairly basic wikiscript or HTML; that way, on the main article, they can still appear in their original format. This general philosophy applies to icons as well, which is why we bring it up.<br>Again, if someone was looking for the raw, unedited sprites, they would likely head to The Spriter's Resource and not us; our goal here is to make these images accurate, of course, but we need to make them both usable in articles and also keep them standardized between one another; baking transparent margins into the images themselves, even if technically accurate to the source material, does run counter to that latter goal. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 21:09, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::There are plenty of instances where we'd have to edit ripped textures anyway because they're ripped rotated or flipped. Cropping to content is similar to those nondestructive edits and I still fail to see how it's such a big issue, we don't need to preserve transparent pixels just because image editors deliberately padded out assets just for the game engine to decipher properly. Otherwise we should upload sprites without any color data and their palette data as separate entities. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:15, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::::It's destructive to me. ._. Also, saying "zero" readers is obviously wrong if there's people supporting this. "Who cares" is never a good argument. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:10, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::{{@|Camwoodstock}} - Boosting them by a consistent size factor (like 50%, 200%, 300%, etc) is perfectly fine - Lift Block, for example, is sized up by 1000%. And it's a lot easier to do that when they have consistent base dimensions so you don't have to look the specific dimensions to resize them by for each image separately. Having all the 32px images display at 64px is a lot simpler than having to look through each to see which needs to be at 64, which needs to be at 62, which needs to be at 58, and so on. That's pointless, tedious, and can be prevented completely by doing what this proposal aims for. And again, non-consistent size factors, like "just make them all display at 50px!" are really messy - see the ''Mario Power Tennis'' example above, and how Shy Guy's icon is ultra pixelated while Bowser's is fairly crisp. It's grossly inconsistent, and on a table, it can't just be rawsized with a percentage (and rawsize in galleries only works for making them ''bigger'', not ''smaller''). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:45, October 29, 2024 (EDT)
::I was the one who uploaded these bestiary images, and I had a few reasons. The main one is that some images like Smorg are cut off by the borders and would look strange when cropped. Also, since each of the Tattle Log images display against a border and background that I was also able to rip, I was hoping we'd be able to fit the enemy images over the background and border so it'd be more accurate to how it appears in-game. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 20:30, October 29, 2024 (EDT)


By the way, a striking example of ripped assets that are extremely counterpoint to this proposal are the [[Mario_Party:_Island_Tour#Spaces|Mario Party: Island Tour]] space icons. Every single one of those icons are cropped from a single texture that compiles all of them, absolutely requiring you to crop images and then crop to content because none of the options suggested that would "encourage" them cover those instances. Hence why I think it's extremely pertinent to encourage crop to content except for formatting purposes in regards to tables. In addition, icons ripped may also come with engine gamma-fixes or even be outright flipped or rotated all which require correction in display for browsing purposes. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:10, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
====Merge moves, Fly is free: Merge moves to forms, but keep Fly as is====
:Hence "when applicable to their origins". As that one is done differently, it is not applicable. {{file link|MK8DX-BCP audience TVV.png|This texture}} was stored in a similar manner with all eight of its frames in a single image (evenly spaced), while there's also {{file link|MKAGP audience.png|this group texture image}} that has someone sideways. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:06, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


Some important things to note:<br>
====Clip Fly's wings: Do not merge moves to forms, change Fly from an article to a list with the name {{Fake link|List of methods of flight}}====
'''1.''' The proposal only applies to icons that have a natural similarity, such as characters, items, board spaces, badges, etc. It does not apply to textures, screenshots, logos or scanners.<br>
'''2.''' In fact, the wiki and the TSR do not have the same purpose. The wiki is not a graphics museum, nor does the TSR have informational content. But this has nothing to do with what the proposal suggests is the organizational factor.<br>
'''3.''' "Who cares?" Yes, the readers and Super Mario enthusiasts who visit the site every day may not care. But the proposal is not for them. After all, are they the ones who vote here? The proposal is for the editors, for those who submit images and create galleries. Approving this would only be a way to better organize what is already common practice.<br>
'''4.''' This prevents things like {{file link|M&S2014 Mii Costume 55.png|it}}.<br>
[[User:blueberrymuffin|blueberrymuffin]] ([[User talk:blueberrymuffin|talk]]) 17:44, October 29, 2024 (-03 UTC)
:What constitutes as an "icon" is entirely arbitrary in terms of graphics, there is technically no difference between graphics HUD of a character's disembodied head in a map and images used as flair in menus, or images of items in say Mario Party 4, or little images in the group photo in ''Mario Superstar Baseball''. As for the "who cares" statement, that's specifically why I voted to oppose: '''I''' don't care about what this proposal wants to implement, I think it's way too draconian for the purposes of this wiki, and I am having my voice heard, and there is a discernible amount of people who share that sentiment. ''Editors use this wiki too''. I also don't see the issue with the cropped Mii suits, MediaWiki has the tools to format those images should they be formatted. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 23:18, October 29, 2024 (EDT)
::"MediaWiki has the tools," does it? Please tell me how, using the <nowiki>[[File:xxxxxxx.png]]</nowiki> type of image, you can implement a resizing of, say, "50%" rather than individually going in and checking the pixel dimensions and dividing it by two yourself. As far as I am aware, you cannot, and when there's 70 or so images all with different dimensions, that's adding a needless amount of tedious work when the obvious solution is to give them the same dimensions in the first place so it only needs done for ''one'' value. And obviously, what makes an icon is determined by whether it is ''used'' as an icon. That doesn't even need said, so I don't know where you were going with that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:29, October 30, 2024 (EDT)


I do not know if this has been mentioned or demonstrated yet, but '''this is what the ''Mario Kart: Toadstool Tour'' icons look in a gallery when rawsize is integrated''':
====Oppose: Status quo====
<gallery class=rawsize>
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Many of the moves in question are used by multiple forms, <s>so attempting to merge them to all separately would violate [[Mariowiki:Once and only once]]</s> {{color|purple|EDIT: which makes determining appearances of the move across different games more difficult to find}}. Furthermore, we do not merge ''character''-specific moves to their respective pages (other than non-''Mario'' characters in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series) - for instance, look at [[Scuttle]] and [[Flutter Jump]] - so why should we do so with forms?
MarioMPT.png
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I don't think we cover moves and other actions particularly well, and I would rather see what that looks like before proposing mergers. Moves are not strictly the same as the form itself (i.e. Flying Squirrel Mario, Power Squirrel Mario, and captured Glydon can all "glide"), and it would be nice to see detail on what the moves are in isolation. Sometimes different power-uped forms perform the same move. A quick look through the fly article indicates there are things lumped together there that really aren't the same thing.
Luigi MPT.png
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all. the current state of the wiki's move coverage just isn't good enough right now to determine whether this proposal would have any benefits. would love to see this proposal again in the future when we have more ground to stand on, but it's not the time right now.
Shy Guy MPT.png
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per others; this would probably make more sense if we had more move coverage as a whole, but as for right now, this feels a bit extraneous.
Peach MPT.png
Yoshi MPT.png
DK MPT.png
Bowser MPT.png
WarioMPT.png
</gallery>


and this is what they look like when it is added to '''the gallery as laid out in this proposal, with heights and widths set to 72'''.
====Comments (Merge moves of forms to forms even if they are non-unique and replace Fly with a list)====
<gallery class=rawsize heights=72 widths=72>
I am sorry this proposal planned for a while is going to merge an article that was just made. It kind of jumped further up my list of priorities given I don't want people to put hard work into adding to Tail whip if I'm about to try to merge it. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 18:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
MarioMPT.png
Luigi MPT.png
Shy Guy MPT.png
Peach MPT.png
Yoshi MPT.png
DK MPT.png
Bowser MPT.png
WarioMPT.png
</gallery>
I do not know if this is apparent in all displays, but Donkey Kong and Bowser are smaller than they should be in the second row. This is happening because the dimensions set for the gallery (72) are smaller than the dimensions of the sprites for DK and Bowser. '''When the heights and widths are changed to 79 (the pxl height of the biggest sprite), it looks like this''':
<gallery class=rawsize heights=79 widths=79>
MarioMPT.png
Luigi MPT.png
Shy Guy MPT.png
Peach MPT.png
Yoshi MPT.png
DK MPT.png
Bowser MPT.png
WarioMPT.png
</gallery>
I do not know if has been alluded to elsewhere in the discussion or changes anything, but I just wanted to point this out. In galleries, you can use rawsize to accurately display assets to scale as long as their are no dimensions set for the gallery, or the dimensions set are larger than the largest sprite. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:04, October 29, 2024 (EDT)
:But you can't ''shrink'' them or use that outside of galleries, so it is not a solution to the primary issue of "it screws up table cell widths and heights," and "you'd need to go in and resize each individually on a table since mediawiki doesn't have a percent-based standard image-resizer, only a pixel-based one, and that's an unnecessarily large amount of work and added HTML for adding proper-sized bounding boxes separately, needlessly bloating the page's byte count when the easy, practical, and obvious solution is to just upload them with the intentional shared dimensions in the first place." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:26, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
::I honestly feel these are valid points. I found instances where it is easier to us certain assets in tables when they are all squared in dimension, and I personally have not heard persuasive reasons why easy integration into templates or tables should always take a backseat to their presence in galleries since we are primarily a resource to be read. Not just browsed. However, this is again a case where I feel allowing users to exercise discretion would be better than a rule. For example, I agree that squaring the ''Double Dash!!'' icons is nice, but I don't know how that really benefits the display for the ''Mario & Sonic'' Mii costumes.
::For clarity, I would not support a proposal that insists we must always crop to content. I understand assets are not always restricted to galleries, and tables and templates are often setup with reliable size parameters. It is generally easier to edit an asset once rather than adjust all the tables it appears to ensure it is displayed in a preferred way, and while cropping to content is nice, I do not personally think it really "ruins" the display in a gallery if one or two assets are out of alignment with their neighbors or look smaller in preview. I at least do not think it is so unsightly that cropping to content should be prioritized over their utility outside of galleries. Users should have the ability to exercise discretion. It remains an important part of making this a communal space. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 02:28, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
:::Keep in mind the proposal is not specifically about keeping the original dimensions, it's more about consistency - cropping can occur as long as that too is consistent. And if an icon is completely unique and not part of any "family" with other ones, then it doesn't matter. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:36, October 30, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I think you're missing the point the opposition here or in the previous proposal is trying to make. As far as I'm aware, no one's saying "never do this". It's already done on the wiki, and it's good when the circumstances call for it. I don't think the ''Diddy Kong Pilot'' example you posted is that bad but it's definitely better at the consistent dimensions, and I don't see anyone here clamoring to crop down the ''Double Dash'' icons either. What I take issue with, and I assume many of my fellow voters feel the same, is this proposal's goal to essentially enforce that across the wiki whether it's helpful and wanted for design purposes or not. The ''Mario Power Tennis'' icons you used as an example aren't currently used anywhere on the wiki where inconsistent dimensions actually matter. I assume the [[Mario_%26_Sonic_at_the_Sochi_2014_Olympic_Winter_Games#Costumes|''Mario & Sonic'' Mii costumes]] would also get caught up in this since they're technically icons, but in my opinion, consistent sizing is unnecessary and the images look worse with the extra space needed to accommodate the largest costumes. At the very least you can't say it looks objectively worse that they're not all centered in this case. You've mentioned having OCD several times in these types of discussions, so I recognize and sympathize that some of these inconsistencies can be frustrating for you, but your personal preferences and irritations aren't always going to reflect the majority of the userbase.
Question; would this merge [[Fireball Punch]], and would this failing result in re-instating [[Talk:Dangan Mario|Dangan Mario]]? These manga "forms" are kind of an edge case. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:23, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:Oh dear manga questions. From what I understand of things, I think nothing should happen either way. Dangan Mario was an article as a form, so unless it's getting reevaluated to be a named move it stays where it lies. Fireball Punch is tricky. The thing is that this proposal exists because of pressures from the medium of video games. Fireball Punch is from a linear narrative story, there's not really much of a benefit readers gain from merging Fireball Punch because odds are someone looking at Super Mario Wiki to read about Fireball Mario doesn't need to know what a Fireball Punch is soon after. They might not even be reading the fifth chapter of Volume 1, the only place with a Fireball Punch. You can hardly consider the Fireball Punch to be a core part of Fireball Mario like all of the moves involved in the proposal. Fireball Punch is free from this proposal, though someone else might think the lack of length means it should be merged into Fireball Mario given this proposal is merging many longer articles or sections of articles into their home forms. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 18:56, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


Also, the reason rawsize keeps getting brought up is because ''you'' were the one who started this proposal with a comparison of images in galleries and made it seem like a key point of your proposal. I'm not sure why you did that, and it feels misrepresentative of the situation at best since [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Expand_use_of_.22rawsize.22_gallery_class|you were the one who proposed its wider usage a few months ago]] and should've known it was an easy solution to the specific problem you were presenting. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:59, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} for your own sake, you should know "once and only once" as a strict policy has been [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Once_and_only_once&diff=4723954&oldid=4372233 retired]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:18, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:I know I proposed that addition. I mainly used a gallery as an example here because it was convenient to bang out quickly, not at an illustration that it is the only issue brought on by this. In regards to making it a rule though, please recall I am not stating here it "has" to be the native dimensions specifically. Also, we have other image upload rules that some people and/or wikis might consider "draconian" but have been around long enough here that they make perfect sense to us (don't upload non-animated .gif's, don't convert .jpg's to .png's and especially don't give them transparency, don't optimize images with metadata, and the above proposed one with currently unanimous support regarding NES palettes), so I really don't see how this ends up any different. I specifically noted in the proposal and its very title that if it straight-up doesn't work in whatever context, that it doesn't need done for it, so I don't see how it ends up as a problem anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:58, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
:Thanks, wish I'd known that before. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:30, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:: This unfortunately contributes to the same problem I had with the previous proposal. Your reply here makes it sound like there would be no substantive or practical difference between how folks generally handle assets already, making it unclear what would actually change if the proposal were to pass. What would change? — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:42, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
:::Because when I tried to enforce "how folks generally handle assets already" it was treated as me going notably out-of-line. There's always gonna be ''someone'' who uploads a .jpg -> .png image because they don't know any better or don't realize it (I'm guilty of the latter from before I knew to check with the "save image as" function), and that needs to be corrected - it is how we "generally do things," but we do it because that is a thing that needs discouraged, hence there being a rule. I see this as no different from that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:52, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
::::This proposal is just going to result in a patchwork of interpretation of how to approach these assets. It's a sign of a very flawed proposal. Doesn't help that your entire bedrock of reasoning that led to this kind of proposal (that we should be encouraged to maintain the original dimensions of a ripped sprite), which I have deemed utter nonsense and I stand by it being utter nonsense, continues to be maintained. This leaves me with a not very confident impression you have any clue how these assets are created, stored, and used in a video game, that you understand ''why'' an asset is padded and has dimensions of 128x256 or something and ''why'' this doesn't mean a wiki should be necessarily maintaining these dimensions. {{User:Mario/sig}} 00:33, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I have explained time and time and time and time and time and time again that ''this'' proposal ''does NOT'' require the original dimensions. Just ''shared'' dimensions. I figured putting it at the top in '''{{color|purple|ALL-CAPS BOLDED BRIGHT PURPLE}}''' would be enough to get people to actually read and realize this, but apparently not. Please acknowledge this and stop treating it as though that is my argument here when it is ''not''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:02, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Let me clarify: when I mentioned the bedrock of reasoning, I meant to contextualize the situation that led up to the proposal. It's to support my criticism of your proposal, which was made in response to the earlier one that was canceled from mounting opposition, that this follow up proposal is poorly made. Due to the timing of things, it comes off as an attempt to simultaneously continue your practices of insisting that image dimensions are important information to maintain (they are not) but with flawed solutions designed around this flawed principle. To me, this is a confusing proposal that will lead to conflicting approaches to how an asset will be handled, and the examples used don't do a great job clarifying points (this example shouldn't even be a table imo). {{User:Mario/sig}} 02:04, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::They absolutely are, but regardless of that, if it ''wasn't'' a table and were instead a gallery, the OCD-triggering vertical position issue would be even worse. (Seriously, I'd get less feeling of disgust from an animated loop of Wario puking up an endless stream of black dioxic squid ink onto Penny than I get from this - hell, that wouldn't even be half of it. This is trypophobia-level shit here.) In regards to that edit you made to your vote, obviously non-icons are completely unrelated to this. I worded this as specifically as I could to avoid it being abused. This is for icons and icons alone, and by "game-related," I mean such as "MKDD-related" or "MPT-related" to determine which group gets which parameters. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:21, October 31, 2024 (EDT)


::::I think there was some misunderstanding amongst parties after the previous proposal was cancelled. I at least do not think anyone intentionally meant any harm. The impression I have is that a lack of familiarity with certain tools lead to some bad-faith interpretations of why folks did the things that they did. But regardless, I think a gentler, less heavy-handed approach to these types of things would be better going forward. I do not think this needs to be strict policy, or something staff and other users need to enforce. But generally, as a courtesy, if one wants to adjust assets that are being used in particular fashions outside of galleries, it does not hurt to reach out and ask if it would be okay to adjust their dimensions. And if a user cropped material, one should not invoke rules that do not exist as actual policy, or bring up some "innate" sprite-ripping principals that do not exist. (I understand the point of this specific proposal is to make certain rules concrete, but I am referring to some of the interactions I saw between users before this current proposal was raised.) Rather, there is no harm in explaining why it is helpful to keep certain assets at particular dimensions for tables and templates. I know some folks have mentions CSS coding, but no one has bothered explaining what that would look like, and generally, adjusting the empty space around an asset is the most user-friendly and intuitive path to take. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 01:28, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
Characters aren't forms, so their moves are unaffected by this proposal, which means Scuttle isn't involved, Character/power-ups are unaffected, so Flutter Jump also isn't affected and you can't loophole abuse your way to merging Scuttle through the [[Luigi Cap]]. Forms that are improved versions of other forms already defer to the base form for unchanged abilities they inherit. Ice Mario has two paragraphs dedicated to using Ice Balls See example text of everything Penguin Mario has to say about Ice Balls..
<blockquote>After Mario has become this form, he can throw Ice Balls at enemies and freeze them. Mario can then use the frozen enemies as platforms or pick them up and throw them against the wall or other enemies. </blockquote> - [[Penguin Mario]]
The system works! It's repeated for [[White Raccoon Mario]] in relation to Raccoon Mario, as per the line, "It gives the player Raccoon Mario's abilities, causes the P-Meter to charge more quickly, allows the player to run and stand on water (like Mini Mario), and grants invincibility for the stage". It's also done for [[Power Squirrel Mario]] to [[Flying Squirrel Mario]], with "As Power Squirrel Mario, Mario has all of the abilities of Flying Squirrel Mario, though he never loses the ability to glide and can perform Flying Squirrel Jumps continuously without landing". [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:35, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


@SeanWheeler: I believe the proposal is just for the icons within a particular "set" to be consistent with each other, not icons of different sets. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:46, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
"List of methods of flight" as a name for the userpage was designed to be aware that not everything on Fly is the same kind of move. (and also it managed to morph into a list of all ways to get from point A to point B if point B is higher than point A... and then an extra addendum for hovering over hazards.) Would it be better if it were placed in mainspace as "List of methods of flight"? [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:47, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


{{@|Killer Moth}} - See the ''Diddy Kong Pilot'' table above and the alignment issues it had before I enacted this principle on it, and how it's much more eye-pleasing afterward? ''That'' is the point. Without it, they tend to look gross - like that table did before. If you can't see why that's an issue, then I envy you, but it really looks bad - the version with the alignment lines is how ''my'' eyes see it even when they aren't there. And I have still yet to see any actual downside to this other than people trying to cram them into signatures, which is... not what the wiki is about and that absolutely should ''not'' take priority in presentation. Same reason we don't add fake armbands to Bowser's SMB1 sprite since that's transparency. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:50, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
Regarding your saying that tail whip's info would be moved to Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games, would that not mean that Tanooki Mario's page would not discuss the tail whip until ''Super Mario 3D Land'', despite it being usable by that form in ''Super Mario Bros. 3''? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:53, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:Again, the dominant perspective of the opposition is '''not''' "no, this is a bad idea. No one is allowed to set up assets to make them aligned as they appear in the ''Diddy Kong Pilot'' table." Personally, I think the ''Diddy Kong Pilot'' example you provided is aesthetically pleasing when the sprites are all aligned, and folks should have the freedom to do that. It is for similar reasons that I integrated organized 100x100px sizing for all images in the mainline game tables and try to ensure columns are the same width across all tables in an article. Rather, the oppositional perspective is, "no, we do not want to police this or make this a type of rule. People should have the freedom to experiment with what types of dimensions they want for the assets used in their tables, and we do not agree that cropping to visual content is inherently destructive of an asset." - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:11, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:Tanooki Mario is already doing exactly that. I don't see anything that makes the article hard to follow, short of it going "there is mandatory reading before reading this article." Which White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario have been doing as well. It's fine. <blockquote>In this form, he can turn into an invulnerable statue by holding +Control Pad down and pressing B Button at the same time, '''in addition to using Raccoon Mario's moves''', making it an improved version of Raccoon Mario. </blockquote> - [[Tanooki Mario]], ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' section.
::I feel doing this is an absolute good, and if someone has the freedom to crop, I have the freedom to restore. Two-way street and all that. Also, LGM's argument from what I can tell is exactly that (which coupled by the general belligerent/caustic directing of profanity towards it) fueled most of this. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:57, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:<blockquote>However, the form's mechanics are different from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', as while Mario can still tail whip (by pressing {{button|3ds|X}} or {{button|3ds|Y}}) and glide (now done by holding {{button|3ds|A}} or {{button|3ds|B}}, as with [[Cape Mario|Caped Mario]], rather than tapping the buttons), he cannot fly during gameplay. </blockquote> - [[Tanooki Mario]], ''Super Mario 3D Land'' section.
:::I respect that you view a policy revision like the one advocated for in this proposal is an "absolute good," but I do not think you have made a compelling persuasive argument as to why, or at least not one to me. And I understand your concerns over a "two way streak," but we do have [[MarioWiki:Courtesy|courtesy policies]] on this wiki. Many of them seem relevant, but the one I would like to highlight is that '''users should not participate in other users' editing projects without asking them first'''. Galleries are more of a shared neutral space, but if one wants to crop to content or retain space around ones that are integrated into tables in a spatially-dependent way, it would be courteous for one to reach out to the uploader of those assets first or at least touch base with them. The ''Mario Power Tennis'' ones, for example, have only been integrated in [[Mario Power Tennis#Participants|one table]] at the time of this comment and cropping them does not seem to have impacted the layout or scaling in any perceivable way to me. There was no demonstrable harm.
:Uh, filler text for sig. I guess I'm advocating for building the ''3D Land'' text up more, since that game shouldn't be deferring to Raccoon Mario as it sort of does now. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 20:05, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:::I do not think LGM is advocating that arranging tables like the one in the ''Diddy Kong Pilot'' example should not be allowed, or at least that is not my reading of her comments. I believe her perspective is not dissimilar from mine. I would personally appreciate it if you reviewed what I wrote in my vote above. I think it would be clarifying.
::But how is it superior to do so compared to just having an article for the move? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:::I could be wrong, but I believe the curtness comes from statements you had included in the previous proposal that, from her experience as someone who also rips assets and someone who participates on this wiki very regularly, she knew were objectively false, but you were presenting them as hard facts and even invoking them to talk down to another user. This is understandably not appreciated conduct, and it is not uncommon from you. She can speak more to that if she wants to. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:13, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::Hypothetical: "Wow! Tanooki Mario is so cool! What does he do?/I just beat ''3D Land'', is there any nuance to it I missed?/Are there any bugs in 3D Land I can exploit with it? I know, I'll go to the [[Tanooki Mario]] page on Super Mario Wiki!"
::::The statements I made then were accurate too, our perspectives are just completely incompatible. And considering in the cases of those Mii costume images, here, the original uploader (who is supporting this proposal) explicitly wants to keep them they way they were uploaded in, which is what I reverted them to, and LGM is reverting them from. The specific thing she has said that I take issue with is her claim that the space is absolutely worthless and should be removed from everywhere it feasibly can be, which naturally I perceive to be extremely misguided. As for the ''Mario Power Tennis'' table, it only looks as good as it does thanks to my own ingenuity of hiding a cell divider bar to make two cells look like one cell - that table is ''the'' one that has given me trouble in that regard. Presumably if they are changed to a tabular form, those icons will remain useful if we start covering rivals for it like we do for the 64 game, but by then it'd be easier if they did share parameters. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:39, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::In the current wiki, the three hypothetical people with varying interest in Super Mario read both an article on Tanooki Mario and an article on [[Tail whip]] to find everything they want to know. This proposal wants to make all of them only read one article, Tanooki Mario. I think this is better because it saves them the additional click and additional loading time and appeals to lower attention spans. I value these hypothetical readers over the hypothetical reader who is a Mario historian who wants to see the evolution of Tail whip across every game of the franchise. Keep in mind, redirects exist so the earlier three hypotheticals can mostly get to the right page if they zig where I think they'd zag and search for a move name. Okay except for Tail whip in specific because of the 2D/3D split, oof moment. I guess disambiguation pages still let my example work since while there would still be two pages to look at the first of them would be short and quick to load because its a disambig and therefore still superior to having Tail whip as full article alongside Raccoon Mario and Tanooki Mario. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 20:59, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:::::Maintaining space needs to be done for a good reason, and having it simply because it was ripped that way ''is not a good reason''. It is okay to find an example where extra space is needed but that table provided is a heavily flawed example due to being an inappropriate use of a table and the suggestion below that does fix the issue to begin with (and probably there is a code for horizontal alignment too). As for Mario Power Tennis table, if you're referring to this one[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Power_Tennis&oldid=4392103#Participants] that's another fundamentally flawed table which was one of the many other tables that prompted criticism by multiple users and would not be my example to try to illustrate a proposal. The ''one'' example I think may work is [[:File:MK8 Mario Icon.png]] due to its use in multiple pages and being in an array with similar scaled images, which were all put in a 128x128 box. Not sure if cropping to content is going to lead to unexpected results but for the record, I don't see the point of cropping to content for these Mario Kart 8 things either, since they're already reasonably occupying the space (unlike those Mario Kart Double Dash map icons which were heavily padded); it's a case of don't fix what isn't broken. The proposal doesn't really advocate any of this. It's, what I can glean, a way to maintain aspect ratio while cropping tightly as possible without losing information, but dressed up in bad examples and imprecise wording (like the proposal does not even define what a "game-related 'icon-type' image" is, so). {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:56, November 2, 2024 (EDT)
::::"Gee, I wonder if that cool thing Tanooki Mario does appears in any other games for any other forms?" This is the more likely question that would be asked. Which is why the move page makes more sense. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:01, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::::::I was more referring to how the N64 Mario Tennis had a separate "partners/rivals" table before I incorporated that information into the main character table, and it used the face icons. I was saying if MPT did something similar, which it probably should if there is indeed a hard-coded system like that in the game. I don't really think I need to define the icon thing; but if you insist, I mean "icon" as in "a small image representing a subject," with "game related" simply meaning as a per-game basis (ie, MK64 icons have no bearing on MKDD icons). (Also, off-topic, but how else would the ''Diddy Kong Pilot'' example be handled if not as a table? There's other information below it that's been cropped out.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:52, November 2, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I think my system still lets that person get to the answers reasonably intuitively. Tanooki Mario says it's super duper Raccoon Mario, so navigating to that page seems reasonable if one wants more tail whipping action. From Raccoon Mario they'll hit Tail. The only odd one out is ''Mario Kart'' Super Leaf, which is exclusively covered on Super Leaf, except thanks to Tanooki Mario being playable in ''Mario Kart Tour'' with the Super Leaf as his special skill that hypothetical person should still hit Super Leaf. We could just add a ''Mario Kart'' series "sentence long section with a <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> link" to Raccoon Mario to patch that hole up, and maybe note that giving Tanooki Mario the Super Leaf as a special skill closely reflects the platforming video games, meaning we have all the links the Tail whip article would have without needing to make a Tail whip article.[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:22, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::::::IMO this just sounds like a lot of confounding mental gymnastics to me and just having a page for the move removes most of the leaps of logic and assumptions on what people will and will not know. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:02, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


The ''Diddy Kong'' example, too, can be easily fixed with aforementioned styling, in this case by using <code>vertical-align: bottom</code>. That is to say however that those sprites are of a size where it makes sense for all of them to just retain their original size, I would not crop those either. There are cases like the Mii suits from the other day where it does make sense to crop them. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 17:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
===On the leading "Princess" for Peach/Daisy/Rosalina, and/or lackthereof===
:Not all of them have flat bottoms in other games, of course, while that also doesn't fix the left-right issue. But yes, I digress. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:57, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
Brace yourselves--this is gonna be a long one.


Another thing I want to ask the opposition: if {{file link|058-SMMMontyMole.png|this}} is to not be cropped, why should any of the other things? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:24, November 6, 2024 (EST)
In July of last year, jan Misali created a proposal to [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|remove the leading "Princess" from the article name for "Princess Daisy"]]. This failed 15-18, as people were interested in a proposal to move Peach alongside this. In November of last year, jan Misali created a follow-up proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#Move "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to "Peach" and "Daisy"|do exactly this]], which failed again; among other concerns regarding redirects, most of the support was split between moving both Peach and Daisy to their Princess-less counterparts, and just moving Daisy, leaving the opposition in the lead. Guess third time's the charm.
:That should be cropped to content. The large blank space serves a purpose to optimize the graphic in a game, not so much here. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:06, November 9, 2024 (EST)


===Allow unregistered users to comment under talk page proposals===
The question is simple; do we remove "Princess" from the names of the [[Princess Peach]] and [[Princess Daisy]] articles? Time and time again, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|we've removed or truncated]] [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|full names or particles]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Rename pages with the full Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars title|to more common names]]. However, for whatever reason, the "Princess" particles for Peach and Daisy stick, despite Nintendo being very hit-or-miss about how required these are, ''especially'' for Daisy, whose "Princess, despite never doing anything royal outside of her debut" status has been acknowledged, officially, multiple times.
One thing I never understood about rule 2 is why unregistered users are not allowed to comment under proposals. The rule states: "Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals." While it makes sense on this page, it is semi-protected after all, talk page proposals are a different story. Why should IPs be prevented from commenting under talk page proposals? Most IPs are readers of this wiki and they should be allowed to express their opinion on wiki matters too. I've seen several examples of IPs making good points on talk pages, I imagine most of them are regular visitors who are more interested in reading rather than editing, and allowing them to leave a comment under a TPP would only be beneficial.


If this proposal passes, unregistered and not-autoconfirmed users would be permitted to comment under talk page proposals. They still wouldn't be allowed to vote or create proposals, only comment.
To recap the cases in favor of these renames for people that didn't read those first two proposals, the case for Daisy in particular is very strong, so we'll start with her. Simply put, Nintendo so rarely calls her by the name of "Princess Daisy" that it's starting to become a surprise when they ''do'' call her that in things like [[:File:Hot Wheels Princess Daisy Character Car Packaging.png|HotWheels character cars]]. To re-iterate a point made in jan Misali's original proposal, the count of times where Daisy is overtly referred to as "Princess Daisy" outside of manuals or other such paratexts can be counted on two hands, and even then, only barely; once in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Print World]]'' (which also erroneously calls Peach "Daisy" at one point), [[Mario Superstar Baseball|the two]] [[Mario Super Sluggers|baseball games]] and ''[[Fortune Street]]'' interchange "Daisy" and "Princess Daisy" in dialogue but all UI uses just "Daisy", ''[[Super Mario Run]]'' being in a similar boat but with in-game descriptions for [[Super Mario Run#Remix 10|Remix 10]] instead of dialogue, and ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]'', where Palutena calls her that. In every other case, including her own debut game, she is generally called "Daisy".


'''Proposer''': {{User|Axii}}<br>
For Daisy, there is also the strange asterisk that is her [[Princess Daisy (film character)|film equivalent]], but given the context of the plot of the film itself--that Daisy is unaware of her own royal status for the bulk of the film, and is simply referred to as just "Daisy" for most of it, we personally think it's fair to move her to "Daisy (film character) and add a Full Name parameter to clarify her "Princess Daisy" title she has towards the end. That being said, [[:File:SMBFilmCard11.jpg|even her own official trading card just calls her Daisy]], and apparently the "Princess Daisy" title only gets dropped on the back of "Sad Goodbyes", which we lack an image for.
'''Deadline''': November 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support (unregistered users proposal)====
The case for Princess Peach is less strong, partially thanks to the release of ''[[Princess Peach: Showtime!]]'', a game in 2024 that makes rather overt use of "Princess Peach"; however, it is worth noting that Nintendo still does play rather fast-and-loose with the "Princess" particle for her as well. Most spinoffs will truncate the "Princess" off of her name, as far back as ''[[Mario Kart 64]]'' and even after the release of ''Showtime'', later that same year, ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'' also [[:File:SMPJCSSUnlocked.jpg|truncated the "Princess" off of Peach's name]]. While we acknowledge it's odd to laser in on exactly one game, ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' just calls her "Peach", and that is one of the best-selling games in the entire Mario franchise.
#{{User|Axii}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Wait, this was a rule?
#{{User|Pseudo}} This rule doesn't really seem like it accomplishes anything.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Why wasn't this already applicable?
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} it makes sense if it's just for comments
#{{User|Drago}} The rule was only [[Special:Diff/1858371|changed]] because of this page's semi-protection and not, as far as I can tell, because of any misuse of comment sections by unregistered users. Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} This is a reasonable change.
#{{User|Dine2017}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Anons use the wiki too and should be able to voice their concerns in the comments section, there's no reason to bar them the ability to comment.
#{{User|Mario}} We'll see if the Bunch of Numbers behave.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.


====Oppose (unregistered users proposal)====
We've seen various arguments against these, and aside from "personal preference for preferring particles", which we obviously can't argue with (at least, not without looking silly), we can't say we understand the majority of them:
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Unregistered users just have numbers for their names, so that looks awkward with the way the votes are counted. It's easy to use your IP to sockpuppet, so I wouldn't want anyone doing that for the votes. And even for just the comments, I wouldn't want anyone to sockpuppet in an argument for manipulation tactics. Nor do I want to see poor grammer or vandalism. Anyone who wants to participate in voting discussions should sign up. This page was semiprotected for a reason. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 00:19, November 1, 2024 (EDT)
*Concerns were risen about removing royalty particles from other article names, such as [[Princess Shokora]] or [[Princess Shroob]] or [[King Bob-omb]] or [[Prince Mush]] (never mind that in his case, it's a stage name and not royalty). In those cases, the characters have ''never'' been referred to without their particles that we could find unless [[You're the Bob-omb|there was already an older name in the first place]], such as "Big Bob-omb" for "King Bob-omb" (it's possible there's remote dialogue or an obscure Manga appearance we don't have on-record, but we're doubtful). These would retain their particles, as per our [[MarioWiki:Naming|Naming policies]] determining that the most common English name is what is used, and in these cases, the particle is included almost 100% of the time. In contrast, Nintendo has been fairly interchangeable with Peach and Daisy's "princess" particles, and in Daisy's case, her particle has only become increasingly rarer as time goes on. If instances were located where the aforementioned characters lacked their particles short of the Big/King Bob-omb example, that would be something worth acknowledging, but in their cases, the particles being excluded is overwhelmingly the exception, not the norm.
*Concerns have been risen about the [[Peach]] and [[Daisy]] article titles potentially referring to generic subjects; however, as of writing this proposal, both "Peach" and "Daisy" directly lead to their corresponding princesses anyways by means of redirects. Other subjects are instead given a "For <nowiki><x>, see <y></nowiki>" in the Princess' articles introductions. These redirects are already present as-is, and these changes wouldn't change how a search lands.
*For internet traffic, given Peach and Daisy already lead to these articles, we still fail to see how this would impact much, unless we intentionally chose to not leave a redirect after a move; it should go without saying that, if we were to make a move of this magnitude, we would absolutely be leaving a redirect.
*On a meta level, for the "would prefer one, but not the other" angle that was part of the reason the second proposal failed, we have since introduced a poll format to more adequately determine more nuanced situations like this, without risking support being split between two groups and being out-numbered overall.
*While this was not mentioned in the original proposals to our awareness, we do acknowledge that some people may be concerned about the costs of labor of changing a bunch of links; however, not only could this trivially be an automated rename, something our proprietor already does fairly regularly with template names, even if this were somehow unworkable, we already have ample tools to manually perform such a change built into MediaWiki itself. We are well-aware of what this wiki's userbase can do when it comes to making these mass-changes, and we think we have a very capable userbase when it comes to deploying a change like this, either automatically or by hand.


====Comments (unregistered users proposal)====
There are also two characters we think are worth acknowledging, one brought up by jan Misali when we shared this proposal's draft with them, and one we noticed ourselves. For jan Misali's part, there's [[Bowser]], or rather, King Bowser... Or rather, how in-frequently Bowser is known as "King Bowser". It's to the point where mentions of "King Koopa" as he appears in the ''DiC'' cartoons severely outnumber the amount of times Bowser is actually called "King Bowser" outright. This is exceedingly non-contentious, and while a [[King Bowser]] redirect has existed since 2006, we can't tell when the last time "King Bowser" was overtly used in dialogue. All we can really say is, having played ''[[Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser]]'' recently, it's not in that, with Bowser usually just being referred to as, well, Bowser, with the occasional uses of "Lord" or other offbeat honorifics instead of "King".
"While it makes sense on this page, it is semi-protected after all"<br>If the protection history displayed above this page's edit box is any indication, it was the other way around. There was already a rule against anonymous voting on this page by the time it was semi-protected. In that case, it might be useful to look into the reasons this rule was made in the first place and, if there's any disagreement, extend this proposal to this page too. As to where these reasons are stated, I don't know. My assumption is that the rule exists because anons are more prone to shit up the place than registered and autoconfirmed users. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:15, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:I couldn't find a reason why IPs were disallowed to comment. My only assumption is that when this page was protected the rule was modified to mention that IPs couldn't comment, but talk page proposals weren't considered. I'll look into it more and potentially add a third option to allow IPs to comment here as well. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 16:20, October 31, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|SeanWheeler}} - This isn't about voting, it's about commenting. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:04, November 1, 2024 (EDT)
However, to us, the ''real'' smoking gun for why a move like this would not only make sense, but be perfectly fine for the wiki, has been sitting right underneath our noses the entire time. [[Rosalina]], or should we say Princess Rosalina? Rosalina has been called a Princess from sources dating as far back as 2010 and as recently as 2023. She's commonly colloquially known as a Princess by fans. Heck, [[Princess Rosalina]] is, as of writing this proposal, a valid redirect to her article, and her infobox states her full name is "Princess Rosalina". However, her article has sat at the title of "Rosalina" since its inception back in 2007, with the Princess redirect only being made in 2014. Rosalina is a Featured Article, so her page naturally receives a ''lot'' of traffic and scrutiny, but nobody seems to have questioned if it would be worth moving her article to "Princess Rosalina" to match the other two princesses; and while one could argue that Rosalina is "not much of a princess", that naturally begets the response that neither is Daisy, who keeps the particle anyways. There's not really any reason we can think of why Daisy should keep her particle if Rosalina hasn't ''ever'' held one and it's seemingly never been questioned, and from there, we could understand removing the particle from Peach's name for parity's sake. (Even still, if you really wanted to, we've provided an option to, in addition for what to do to the "Princess" particles in Peach & Daisy's names, if we should add one to Rosalina's name, or keep it absent. We don't really intend to include something like this for "King Bowser" as, while "Princess Rosalina" at least has a plurality number of cases we could find of that name being used, we could literally only find one "King Bowser", in [[Nintendo Comics System]].)
:For real, do you even read before voting on proposals? It's a small paragraph that makes it very clear that it's only about commenting under talk page proposals, not even on this page. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 01:07, November 1, 2024 (EDT)


===Decide whether to cover the E3 2014 ''Robot Chicken''-produced sketches===
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}
For {{wp|E3 2014}}, Nintendo's press conference was a video presentation similar to today's Nintendo Directs, featuring [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FgzkZC0reE clips of stop-motion sketches] by the producers of ''{{wp|Robot Chicken}}''. I feel that these qualify to receive coverage on this wiki, since their appearance in a video published by Nintendo means that they are officially authorized, and they prominently feature ''Mario'' franchise characters. However, I have never seen the sketches discussed in any wiki article, nor are they listed on [[MarioWiki:Coverage]], so I thought it would be appropriate to confirm their validity for coverage with a proposal.


The following articles would be affected by this proposal if it passes (since the E3 2014 video is not a game, film, etc., coverage is best suited to an "Other appearances" section):
====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Peach?====
*[[History of Mario]]
'''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT
*[[History of Bowser]]
*[[History of Princess Peach]]
*[[History of Wario]]
*[[Reggie Fils-Aimé]]
*[[Fire Flower]]
*[[Bullet Bill]]
*[[List of implied entertainment]] (In the last sketch, Mario mentions the fictional game ''Mario Ballet'').


Regardless of which option ends up winning, a note should be added to MarioWiki:Coverage to explain how these sketches are classified. Also, I'm clarifying that this proposal does not involve any sketches from ''Robot Chicken'' itself, since those are clearly parodies that have no approval from Nintendo.
;Yes Princess (status quo)
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per past me: "I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. [...] Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it." Considering Nintendo used her full name in a game title last year, this would be a really odd time to do it, and it sheds some light on how awkward it is putting so much focus squabbling over the specifics of character select screens and the like, IMO. I don't see a consistency issue with Daisy regardless of what happens with her, they weren't designed to be perfect analogues to each other and are used in different contexts, which also informs Nintendo's usage of their full titles.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Waluigi Time, past and present.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Much like Daisy, "princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Peach, potentially because they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts where you play as her, or they want to be conservative with text on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Peach" erroneous, archaic, unused, or inappropriate for the title of an article. This is an even stronger case for Peach because she shows up more often in non-playable appearances, where she is typically called "Princess Peach," and they represent the bulk of her history. It is the name used in most instruction booklets, toys, and even in-game. It is not the end of the world for her article to simply go by "Peach," but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining that. "Peach" is more so a shorter derivative of "Princess Peach" than "Bowser" ever was of "King Bowser" or anything like that (and ''certainly'' more so than "Princess Rosalina" is for "Rosalina.") You can probably count the number of sources that prefer using that name for him on one hand, unlike Peach.
#{{User|Rykitu}} [[Princess Toadstool's Castle Run|All]] [[Super Princess Peach|5]] [[Parasol Fall|Princess]] [[Peach's Puzzle|Peach]] [[Princess Peach: Showtime!|games]] have "Princess" before "Peach" (with the exception of Peach's Puzzle and Parasol Fall, unless you count it's full title being Super Princess Peach — Parasol Fall). It is also used way too commonly by Nintendo so I think it should stay the way it is.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Waluigi Time and Nintendo101
#{{User|SGoW}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} While I can understand the desire for consistency with the other two princesses, Princess Peach is clearly her <strike>full</strike> ''proper'' name, being used in the titles of games as well as regularly in various bits of dialogue and paratext. It's true that she's usually just Peach in a character select screen, but I don't think this defines how she is overall perceived... in my subjective experience, she would usually be known by the average person aware of Mario as Princess Peach.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. She is called Princess Peach a lot more than she is called Peach. I asked my sister (who is a very casual fan) who her favorite character is and she specifically said Princess Peach. General audiences and Nintendo still more frequently call her Princess Peach than they do just calling her Peach.
#{{User|Sdman213}} per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} I still stand by Daisy being referred to as her shortened name, but I feel this can be a case where consistency doesn't really need to be a necessity: Princess Peach is still a very commonly used name for Peach herself and while just referring to her as Peach is as common, the full name is still used much more often when compared to Daisy and especially compared to Rosalina.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. As I’ve said before, keeping these extended names is fine because they work like identifiers and offer clarification pre-emptively and at the first sight. I’ve also pointed out that the current guidelines don’t say anything about extending names based on official material and suggested making them usable (in limited fashion) and prioritized over wiki-made identifiers. And if people seeking a specific Mario subject over a generic one is such a big deal, then add to the guidelines making use of Display Title extension. Like letting ”Peach” redirect to ”Princess Peach” while ”Peach (fruit)” would have the extension to cut (lol) the page title into ”Peach”.
#{{User|GeneralDonitsky}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.


'''Proposer''': {{User|ThePowerPlayer}}<br>
;No Princess
'''Deadline''': November 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. While we think the arguments for keeping Peach's particle are the strongest, namely since we have an [[Princess Peach: Showtime!|entire game from 2024 with the particle in the name]], we do think if we remove this from Daisy, we should naturally remove this from Peach for the sake of parity.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Abolish the monarchy.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} It's just "Peach" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all. And the use of "Peach" in character select screens is an intentional choice, not due to character constraints, as shown by the existance of names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)".
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all. I'm still not a fan of using abridged names—especially for crossover characters like [[Fox]], [[Sonic]], etc.—but if we want to be consistent about it, something's gotta give.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} per all
#{{User|PopitTart}} I was initially hesitant because of the existence of ''Princess Peach Showtime'', but I was quickly swayed by looking at [https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/princess-peach-showtime-switch/ the game's online store page], which displays the simple "Peach" name no less than a dozen times.
#{{User|Arend}} Look, if Daisy doesn't get to be called a princess anymore (even if she's still being referred to as the princess of Sarasaland to this day), neither can Peach. Should be noted that in Dutch, whenever Peach gets called a princess, it's typically spelled "prinses Peach" ''without'' an uppercase P.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} per all


====Support====
<s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} The people who type “Princess Peach” into the search bar are nerds.</s>
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} This feels logical enough that I'm not sure it needs a proposal or even an explicit note on the coverage policy, but per proposal just in case.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal
#{{User|Tails777}} Some of them were Mario related so I don't see any reason not to mention them. Per proposal.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} At first, we were a bit confused as to why ''only'' E3 2014 was getting this treatment, but it turns out that no, actually, we do mention a few things from E3 presentations and Nintendo Directs in these articles, we just never internalized that information. If we cover [[History of Wario#Other appearances|that Wario animatronic puppet from E3 1996]], and we cover [[History of Bowser#Other appearances|Bowser in Bayonetta 2]], we don't see why we shouldn't cover this specific E3's trailers just because it was by a different producer.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Don't see why not.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.


====Oppose====
<s>{{User|Super Mario RPG}} "Princess" is not part of the name, it's just a title and not as integral to Peach's identity as, for example, Dr. Mario.</s>
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Robot Chicken is an adult parody show. To cover Robot Chicken in Mario's history is like taking the Family Guy cutaway gags as canon. The Robot Chicken sketches including the E3 specials are covered in [[List of references in animated television]].


====Comments====
====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Daisy?====
Uh, SeanWheeler? You may want to see [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]]. There is no canon in Super Mario. And being an "adult" show shouldn't prevent text from being referenced in normal articles given the wiki does not censor anything. (The last point on [[MarioWiki:Courtesy]], and the set of arguing over [[Bob Hoskins]]'s page quote.) I guess one could discount the sketches on account of them as parodies, but given the "no canon" bit that seems hard to justify. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:01, November 3, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT
:It's been a hot minute, but aren't the 2014 E3 sketches not even a part of Robot Chicken, anyways? Just produced by the same team behind them. It would be like prohibiting mention of [[Ubisoft]] because they developed those South Park games. And even if the sketches for E3 2014 were particularly "adult", [[List of unofficial media acknowledged by Nintendo#Super Hornio Brothers|overwhelmingly adult content hasn't stopped us before]]. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 09:43, November 4, 2024 (EST)
::We might not have any canon, but Robot Chicken sketches are like the Family Guy cutaways. We don't cover Family Guy despite having a few Mario cameos. They only get listed in [[List of references in animated television]]. And no, it's nothing like prohibiting Ubisoft for their South Park games. We have [[Ubisoft]] for their involvement in the [[Mario + Rabbids (series)|Mario + Rabbids]] crossover series. We don't cover South Park. Prohibiting the mention of Ubisoft for just one unrelated series would be ridiculous. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 15:25, November 9, 2024 (EST)
:::So what if these are "like the Family Guy cutaways"? We don't cover Family Guy because we're not a Family Guy wiki. As far as I know, no Mario cameos in Family Guy were officially authorised by Nintendo, so it couldn't get its own article anyway. Meanwhile, these sketches were officially posted by Nintendo and featured Mario characters prominently. As for the part of your comment about Ubisoft and South Park, you've just described the point Camwoodstock was making by bringing that up. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:59, November 9, 2024 (EST)
{{@|ThePowerPlayer}} Looking at these sketches, why not create an article covering them? It would be inconsistent not to cover them separately as well, not just as sections of other articles. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 13:26, November 4, 2024 (EST)
:The proposal is to cover them in "Other appearances" sections, which are [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Define the scope of "Other appearances" sections|supposed to cover things without articles]]. Also, to my knowledge, they don't exactly have an official title that we could use. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:32, November 4, 2024 (EST)
::This is exactly why I brought it up. It would be weird not to have a page on them when all other content does. Lack of an official title never stopped us either :) <br>[[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 03:42, November 5, 2024 (EST)
:::My point is that not "all other content" has a page, and that's what "Other appearances" sections are for. I don't think these short, nameless skits from an E3 presentation that are more about Nintendo in general than specifically Mario are really in need of an article when this proposal passing would mean their entire relevance to Mario would already be covered on the wiki. They aren't even the only skits with Mario characters from an E3 presentation, E3 2019 has an appearance from Bowser. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:34, November 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Exactly. Making an article would just lead to a lot of unnecessary descriptions of content that has nothing to do with the ''Super Mario'' franchise. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 19:44, November 5, 2024 (EST)


===Require citations for dates===
;Yes Princess (status quo)
Recently, a proposal decided that not sourcing a foreign name puts the article into a meta category of "unsourced foreign names". But I'd say a similar idea should be implemented to dates for things such as media releases, company foundations, and game, company and system defunction. Because, for example, there's been many times where I've seen an exact release date pinpointed and I think "where did they get that date from?", and after a bit of research, I can't find any reliable source with said exact release date. Dates being sorted like this would be nice.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} In my view, "Princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Daisy, which happen to represent the bulk of her appearances. Perhaps they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts, or they want to be conservative with space on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Daisy" erroneous, archaic, or unused. It is the name used in ''Super Mario Land'', the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'', and licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy, where she is called "Princess Daisy." It is not the end of the world for her name to go by something else, but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining the status quo.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Nintendo101
#{{User|Pseudo}} Even if she is to be referred to as Daisy most of the time, Princess Daisy is still clearly her "proper" name in my view. This falls into a similar category to my views on the Peach situation (or Princess Peach, as the case may be); even though it's less supported by in-game usage and the like, this is still the main name that she is known by.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all, what I said above about Peach.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Starluxe}}<br>'''Deadline''': November 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT
;No Princess
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. To be honest, this has never been a contest for us; as far back as flavor text in ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', Nintendo has acknowledged the weird lack of Damsel-in-distress-ness to Daisy's character, and the usage of "Daisy" in lieu of "Princess Daisy" is as old as ''[[Super Mario Land]]'' itself. That Daisy's royalty is bordering on in-name only post-''Land'' is practically a defining trait of hers.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per the trilogy of proposals, this is the name that is almost always used for this major character and it is bizarre that we aren't reflecting that. This should've happened long ago, hopefully this new poll format will finally allow it to. I think I'm neutral regarding whether to move Peach, since it's much less immediately obvious which of her two names is most commonly used.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per last times.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
#{{user|Cadrega86}} Per all three past proposals.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Forgive the copy-paste job, but: it's just "Daisy" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all the points made on past proposals. I feel nothing more needs to be added.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} per all.
#{{User|PopitTart}} Hi, She's Daisy!
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal. Many of the points made in support of this change have been made and extensively debated, and this proposal does an excellent job outlining them and addressing potential counterarguments.<br>Above all, though, I remain steadfast that the concern about the impact of this shortening of names over search visibility is a complete non-issue. To reiterate what I said in the previous discussion, this site isn't a corporate product; it doesn't need to optimize every single little aspect of itself in the pursuit of visibility. That's not to say that visibility isn't important, but I reckon the wiki already enjoys an ample amount as is, and while only the site's owner ultimately can pull figures and projections, something tells me that calling Daisy, "Daisy" is not going to amount to much. On my machine, looking up "larry mario" or "larry koopa" still pulls up the mariowiki.com article of [[Larry]] as the top result, outranking even Fandom's aggressively promoted children--same holds true for other Koopalings--so I have to ask, if this isn't what motivates the opposing views, what exactly is the problem? Because so far it's only made these subjects easier to look up, less annoying to type out and link to, and ultimately more accurate to the creator's current vision, '''with visibility nigh intact'''. Furthermore, if Mario Wiki's purpose ever was to be perfectly optimized for search hits and clicks, I figure there would be more lucrative directions for the site to take than to be an game encyclopedia for niche things that only 0.1% of Mario fanatics realistically care about. Let unwavering accuracy be the "selling point" that elevates this wiki over all other fan resources for the Mario franchise.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} per all


====Support====
<s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.</s>
#{{User|Starluxe}} Per my proposal
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I agree.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Wait, how is this ''not'' already policy??? Per proposal.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} I personally find that a lot of release dates for games on the internet come from hearsay, and copying what other sites say without actually double checking that info, so this would be great for guaranteeing accuracy.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.


====Oppose====
<s>{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Since I'm supportive of "Princess" being removed from Peach's article title, the same would apply to Daisy, who has made fewer appearances, including with the "Princess" title.</s>


====Comments====
====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Rosalina?====
What source you think is acceptable for release dates? I personally use GameFAQs. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:05, November 2, 2024 (EDT)
{{Early notice|option=yes|March 26, 2025}}
:GameFAQs isn't officially related to Nintendo, right? If so, then no. It needs to be an official source. Because if anything, GameFAQs' release dates could be taken from another unofficial source, making that an unacceptable source. {{User:Starluxe/sig}} 13:00, November 6, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT
::But that is a major problem of mine regarding old games, especially those that came out before the internet. Game sites such as GameFAQs and Wikipedia have it down all the time, especially those as old as GFAQs, but I don't think Nintendo themselves keep track of it too much barring recent titles or titles they are currently selling, with rare cases of them citing release dates in games themselves (like Super Smash Bros. Brawl's chronicles). For example, Wikipedia does cite Mario Kart: Double Dash's release date in a financial statement by Nintendo but other games such as the original Thousand Year Door's release dates remain unsourced. I'll need an answer to what sources you plan on using to cite the release data. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:28, November 7, 2024 (EST)
:::This has come up [[Talk:Donkey Kong (game)#Arcade release dates|a]] [[Talk:VS. Super Mario Bros.|few]] [[Talk:Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest#NA release date|times]], but the state of proper video game release date archival is dreadful. I would argue it was around the time of digital storefronts that they were catalogued more seriously. I really want to support this proposal, but first, I think it's really important to decide what type of sources are usable. Sites like GameFAQs and MobyGames? They're actually user-contributed, in theory, I guess. You can contribute there. The problem is that I don't know anything about their curation. Unlike a wiki, you can't look back. Someone can contribute something else that overrides your contribution, and you won't know why (probably something to the effect of "another online source"). So, I wouldn't take sites like them, despite search results doing a good job of making sure they're one of the first things you see. Wikipedia has taken to citing the copyright office, but as far as I know, details like that are not always the same thing as an actual release/airing date. My suggestion is that this needs a whole source priority of its own, preferably contemporary sources like magazines and press releases. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)


Seeing how this could also apply to other things like defunction dates, I've added so to my explanation. {{User:Starluxe/sig}} 12:16, November 7, 2024 (EDT)
;Yes Princess


===Move "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to "Peach" and "Daisy"===
;No Princess (status quo)
Earlier this year, I made [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|a proposal]] suggesting that the article "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy". That proposal was rejected, with one of the main reasons being that people were concerned about the inconsistency this would cause with Princess Peach. Since then, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles|another similar proposal]] has passed that suggested moving the Koopaling articles to just their first names. So, I would like to suggest once again that I think "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy", except that this time I'm also including the option to move "Princess Peach" to "Peach".
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We hope we've made it apparent that we think adding the particle to Rosalina's article is very silly indeed, especially decades after the fact, when Rosalina has obtained a featured article without the particle, and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy.
#{{User|Hewer}} She's barely ever called that.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Queen it up.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Unlike the other two, there is no substantial media that refers to Rosalina as "Princess Rosalina." It is presented only in larger descriptive material on Rosalina, and even then, only occassionally.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} If anything, cases where Princess Rosalina is used are the clear outlier.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - She's clearly a queen, just sometimes lumped as one of "the princesses" for convenience. <small>(note: the first part of this comment is meant to be taken as a joke)</small>
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal. It's unclear if Rosalina is even really a princess in the first place.
#{{user|Cadrega86}} Per all.
#{{user|Ahemtoday}} Princess of ''what'', by the way? Princess of space? Can you ''be'' the princess of space?
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} princess of [[:File:TAoSMO_Rosalina_Concept_Art.jpg|acoustic rock]], obviously.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. Her backstory implies she was one, and she carries the appearance of one, but it is certainly not one of her defining characteristics.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} She's straight-up never referred to this way except in supplementary material like websites, not even the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' manual calls her Princess Rosalina. This is pretty clear cut to me.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} In Chapter 7 of [[Rosalina's Story]], there is a castle in the background that is implied to be Rosalina's house. Quote Rosalina, "I want to go back to my house by the hill!" The only visible "house" by the hill is the castle. So it's likely that she was born to royalty on her home planet. That said, Daisy has no princess particle, so Rosalina shouldn't either just going off precedence.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. Unlike Princess Peach or Princess Daisy, Rosalina is almost never referred to as a Princess.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} per all
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all except the queen headcanon.


This proposal is ''not'' suggesting that we stop using these titles for these characters ''completely''. We should continue to do as we have done: use whatever name is used in a specific work when talking about a character's appearance in that work. I am only suggesting that the articles themselves be moved to "Peach" and "Daisy", which I believe to be their ''primary'' names.
<s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.</s>


====The case for moving Daisy's article====
<s>{{user|Super Mario RPG}} I don't think I ever recall it being used.</s>
You can read my full argument for Daisy in my previous proposal about this subject, so I'll be brief here. My key point is that '''Daisy has never been called Princess Daisy in any game as her primary English name'''. It's certainly not an ''un''official title by any means, but she is and always has been called "Daisy", with no honorific, considerably more often and more prominently than her full title.


====The case for moving Peach's article====
====Comments (Princess Particle Party!)====
The case for Peach is much weaker than the case for Daisy. Unlike Daisy, Peach is actually called by her full title in-game as her primary English name sometimes. In fact, as was pointed out in the comments of the previous proposal, Nintendo has [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/puzzles/jigsaw-puzzle-princess-peach-daisy-rosalina/ on occasion] used the names "Princess Peach" (with the honorific) and "Daisy" (without) together.
Should be of note that Palutena's Guidance [https://youtu.be/Ls0qNcpAn1E?t=53 is not the ''only'' part in Ultimate] in which Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" (obviously this also applies to Peach). {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:23, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
:I can't track down the article (iirc, it was translated by SourceGaming), Masahiro Sakurai prefers dropping royal monikers in ''Smash Bros.'' games. If I recall correctly, it is to make the character more familial to the player and conserve textual space on the character selection screen. King Dedede is only called "Dedede" in the Japanese releases of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' games. That does not mean "King Dedede" is not a more complete rendering of his name. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:44, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
::King K. Rool is called that in Smash, so it's clearly case-by-case (and I thought the "saving space on the character select screen" argument was debunked last time by [[List of drivers in Mario Kart Tour|Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)]]). Anyway, why should a "complete" name automatically be more desirable than the name that is actually used in pretty much every appearance of the character? As was mentioned in the proposal, we've established in cases like the Koopalings that the longest name doesn't have to be the name we use. What makes Daisy different? (Honestly, "Princess Daisy" probably has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:01, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
:::{{@|Hewer}} I was referring to the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series and the people involved in the decisions for that series. None of them made ''Mario Kart Tour'', a more contemporaneous game. Peach has been playable in spinoffs since the 1990s and Daisy has been since 2000, where trends like this would be established on hardware more limited, and by people who may have different views on how to render their characters' name on selection screens. In ''Melee'', for example, a game with Peach, they call Captain Falcon "C. Falcon" on the [[:File:CharacterSelect-SSBMelee.png|selection screen]]. They probably could have rendered his name in full like they did for the Ice Climbers, but they didn't. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:15, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
::::I was replying to your vote on Daisy as well as your comment, sorry if that wasn't clear. Either way, I don't really understand the point you're making here. My point stands that Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer) is in the same game as just Daisy. Captain Falcon is in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate with just Daisy. Can you name any games that call her "Princess Daisy" on a select screen (or other similarly prominent context besides "random line of dialogue", for that matter)? I'm not aware of any. Surely if all the different people working on different games came to the same conclusion that it should be Daisy rather than Princess Daisy, that's ''more'' reason for us to move it? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:32, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
:::{{@|Hewer}} In regards to "King K. Rool" - that's probably because every single language literally calls him that (at least in-game). In contrast, the reason Peach, Bowser and Dedede aren't Princess Peach, King Bowser and (JP-set) King Dedede is likely because they're literally ''Peach-hime'', ''Daimaō Koopa'' and ''Dedede-daiō'', respectively. Yes, these are simplified translations, but the nuance is different. The titles are probably getting mostly phased out because Nintendo likes it when the names of their major characters don't have to change much between regions. For example, [https://shmuplations.com/starfoxadventures/ one interview] where Takaya Imamura regretted not unifying ''Star Fox''{{'}}s Andorf as "Andross" from the start. This was also done with the big Legendary Pokémon, as I recall, etc. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:10, March 19, 2025 (EDT)


Nonetheless, her highness is called "Peach" in-game considerably more often than "Princess Peach". (To be clear, my point is not that she's ''never'' called "Princess Peach", just that "Peach" appears to be her ''primary'' in-game name, which is what the [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policy]] recommends.) I believe the strongest example here is ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]'', which uses "Peach" despite having no shortage of playable drivers with excessively unweildy names.
How is Rosalina a queen, exactly? I don't think that's ever been stated anywhere, and Peach is still Princess even though she explicitly rules the Mushroom Kingdom, so Rosalina ruling something wouldn't make her Queen necessarily. Speaking of, even if she's not technically ruling anything now, she's still a princess by birth (backstory and Baby Rosalina's design), and I don't think titles become null and void like that / "oh it's been (blank) years I guess I'm not a princess anymore". [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:03, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
:I recall some interview that said she was designed to be "queenly" or some such thing either for ''Galaxy'' or ''Smash Bros.'' Granted, that could also have been a mistranslation and I could be misremembering entirely. The comment I made in my vote was primarily tongue-in-cheek, not meant to be a serious reflection of what I think. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:39, March 23, 2025 (EDT)


'''Proposer''': {{User|janMisali}}<br>
@Pseudo: In what way is Princess Daisy "the main name that she is known by"? It certainly isn't officially, and in my experience it isn't even the more used name by fans either. And since Nintendo101 didn't really answer this question: why does a name being the "full name" mean it should automatically take priority? It didn't with [[Talk:Conker#Rename to Conker|Conker the Squirrel]], [[Talk:Bobbery#Changing Admiral Bobbery to just Bobbery|Admiral Bobbery]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles|Sonic the Hedgehog]], [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|Professor Elvin Gadd]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Move animal names from the Donkey Kong Country series to just their normal names|Rambi the Rhino]], [[Colored Pencils|Colored Pencils, The Missile Maestro]], [[Talk:Baby DK#Move to Baby DK|Baby Donkey Kong]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|Wendy O. Koopa]], [[Talk:Grodus#Move to Grodus|Sir Grodus]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Move Super Princess Peach enemies to their full names|Glad Red Paratroopa]], [[Talk:TEC#Move to TEC|TEC-XX]], and indeed, Princess Rosalina. So why is Princess Daisy different? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:57, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': November 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT
:I do agree with the argument, but I do want to just correct the mention of Glad Red Paratroopa. ''Super Princess Peach'' enemies don't actually ever show longer names than the abbreviated ones. the "full" names suggested by that proposal are ''technically'' conjectural.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 05:30, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
::Fair enough. That's one example down, eleven more to go. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:33, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
:I guess what I mean is that "Princess Daisy" is sort of her brand name; it's the main name that marketing materials use for her and, in my subjective experience, is what she is known as in the public consciousness. For what it's worth, I heavily disagree with the Sonic character and Koopaling renames, and would vote against them if they were relitigated today (while I abstained from these proposals at the time, my feelings on this have become more clear to myself over time). Some of these renames do make sense to me, such as E. Gadd's, but it's a case-by-case thing I guess and I don't personally see Daisy as comparable to E. Gadd in this way. I just can't see either of these renames as at all helpful to the wiki's goals. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 09:01, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
::In what way is "Princess Daisy" her "main name that marketing materials use"? Much like the games, marketing materials occasionally use it as an alternate name, not usually as her primary name. Here's a selection of official websites that list the Mario characters: [https://mario.nintendo.com/characters/ this] ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"), [https://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/mario/ this] ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"; it does use "Princess Daisy" after you click on her, but not on the main list, and said list uses "Princess Peach" so length can't be the issue), [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/characters/ this] ("Peach" and "Daisy"), and [https://www.nintendo.com/en-gb/Games/Characters-hub/Super-Mario-Hub/Characters-2493286.html this] ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"). Notice how all of them use "Daisy" as her primary name rather than "Princess Daisy", with most of them even having "Daisy" used alongside "Princess Peach". As for the "what she is known as in the public consciousness" point, I think it's fair to say popular wikis such as this one have some influence on that (and there's also the case of [[Spiny Shell (blue)|Blue Shell]] if you want an example where the official name doesn't match the common fan name, though I'd argue that "Daisy" is also a commonly used name by fans in this case). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:50, March 20, 2025 (EDT)


====Move both princesses====
For reference, here's how Play Nintendo (a division of Nintendo's American website) handles the names of Peach and Daisy.
#{{User|JanMisali}} First choice, as proposer.
*On the [https://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/ "Friends"] page, the former is "Princess Peach", while the latter is "Daisy".
#{{User|Pseudo}} First choice, per proposal. The princess titles for both characters can definitely be seen as their full names, but it seems to occupy a similar space to "King Bowser" in most games.
*A [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/puzzles/jigsaw-puzzle-princess-peach-daisy-rosalina/ puzzle activity] featuring both characters renders the former as "Princess Peach", while the latter as "Daisy".
#{{User|Tails777}} Primary choice. Even if Peach uses her title more often, MANY games usually relegate to just calling the princesses by their names without their titles. And since Bowser is also referred to as just "Bowser" over "King Bowser" (a titled name used about as often as Princess Peach), I feel all three can just use their names without titles.
*Similarly, coloring activities that feature the former ([https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/mushroom-kingdom-princess-peach-paint-activity/], [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/princess-peach-paint-by-numbers-spring-2023/], [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/paint-by-number-princess-peach-activity/]) render her name as "Princess Peach". Compare Daisy's [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/paint-by-numbers/daisy-paint-by-numbers-online-activity/ own coloring activity], where she is rendered as simply "Daisy".
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Only choice, per proposal. I was part of the opposition to the previous proposal, but this one fixes the issue I had with it. And anyway, in basically any game where Peach is playable, the thing written under her on the character select is just "Peach", same as Daisy, so this feels like the natural solution.
*[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/skill-quizzes/valentines-day-mushroom-kingdom-trivia-quiz/ In this quiz], at question 2 you'll notice the "Daisy" answer; question 4 invokes "Princess Peach".
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} "Princess" is just a title of Peach's name, and most appearances refer to her as simply Peach. The name for "Daisy" is very seldomly preceded by "Princess". Compare to Dr. Mario, where the "Dr." is an inherent part of his name, rather than a full title.
*[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/opinion-polls/mushroom-kingdom-role-model-poll/ A poll] uses the shortforms of both ("Peach" and "Daisy").
#{{User|Altendo}} If we can remove names from Sonic characters, the Koopalings, and even named identifiers like [[Sir Grodus|Sir]] and [[Admiral Bobbery|Admiral]], there is no reason to not do this. Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Altendo, specifically
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, and the original proposal that spurred this one.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Things are headed in this direction, let's rip the bandage off.
#{{User|Arend}} I'm more comfortable with removing the "Princess" title from both articles rather than just Daisy's. Yes, Peach is often called "Princess Peach", but I find it comparable to Koopa minions referring to Bowser as "Lord Bowser" or "King Bowser" (or, in the case of game titles such as ''Super Princess Peach'' or ''Princess Peach Showtime'', it's comparable to the ''Super Mario'' games, which bear this title even if there's no Super Mushrooms to turn Mario into Super Mario).
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Fine, second choice.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per all.


====Only move Peach====
Now, for a change of pace:
*Daisy is displayed as "Princess Daisy" on [https://play.nintendo.com/themes/friends/princess-daisy/ her own profile], which doubles as the hub of Daisy-related stuff on that site.
*[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/skill-quizzes/mushroom-kingdom-character-trivia-quiz/ Another pop quiz] uses "Princess Peach" and... "'''Princess''' Daisy".
*[https://play.nintendo.com/activities/opinion-polls/mushroom-kingdom-character-hang-out-poll/ This poll], likewise.


====Only move Daisy====
Note that the pages linked above are not tied to any particular product, but rather the Mario series in general. Most were nevertheless published during the Switch generation, and I strived to highlight as much cross-reference material as I could find from both Daisy's profile on the site, and the [https://play.nintendo.com/search/?s=daisy search results for "daisy"] (which aren't all that different for "[https://play.nintendo.com/search/?s=princess+daisy princess daisy]"). It appears that activities which promote specific games overwhelmingly invoke characters using the same name they use in those games. In other words, "Peach" for Peach, and "Daisy" for Daisy, as expected. Some examples: [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/opinion-polls/super-mario-bros-wonder-character-poll/][https://play.nintendo.com/printables/crafts/super-mario-party-jamboree-printable-party-hats/][https://play.nintendo.com/activities/skill-quizzes/super-mario-online-trivia/][https://play.nintendo.com/activities/personality-quizzes/who-is-your-super-mario-party-jamboree-buddy/][https://play.nintendo.com/activities/personality-quizzes/mario-golf-super-rush-personality-quiz/]. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:17, March 20, 2025 (EDT), edited 17:00, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
#{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, as proposer.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Second choice, since Daisy has stronger reason to be moved.
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary choice. Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" far less than Peach is referred to as "Princess Peach", with some modern games still using Peach's title. Daisy is almost always just referred to as "Daisy".
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per the case being made for Daisy. Games and other media as recent as ''Princess Peach Showtime'' and the Mario Movie alternate between naming Peach with and without the honorific, so MarioWiki:Naming cannot enforce one over the other based on recency, frequency, or source priority. None of this can be said about Daisy, however. Some have argued that "Daisy" is chosen for functional purposes within games, i.e. is an attempt to keep the character's name short in areas where you can allocate a piece of text only so much memory--and I'd understand the argument, if it weren't for cases like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)", "Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer)", and "Purple Koopa (Freerunning)" which push that memory limit much further than "Princess Daisy" ever could. I also question why the naming scheme of either character has to remain consistent with the other just for the sake of it; if their patently similar appearance and roles is the sole thrust behind this point of view, what's stopping [[Rosalina]] from being moved to "Princess Rosalina", then? That's an official title, too. Better lock in and make the facts readily apparent on the fan encyclopedia.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne. I see the argument for moving Peach as well, but feel more strongly that Daisy should be moved since she's rarely called "Princess Daisy".
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice. We need to do ''something'' about Daisy, at least.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Koopa con Carne.


====Keep both princesses the same====
{{@|Camwoodstock}} ''"[...] and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy."''<br>I don't think that's true. Daisy has been called the princess of Sarasaland as late as ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]''. Rosalina, on the other hand, I cannot recall her ever being referred to as a princess of anything. Or royalty at all, for that matter. People presumed she was "Princess Rosalina" or "Princess Rosetta" in the early years before Mario Galaxy released purely because she has that "Princess Peach"-esque look, but canonically, she's been referred to as the protector of the cosmos, the keeper of the Comet Observatory, and the mother of the Lumas; none of which are titles of royalty. {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:40, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Stop shortening names! Seriously, I knew this was next after the Koopaling proposal.
:I agree, but the proposal is specifically about whether the characters' articles should be called "Princess Peach/Daisy/Rosalina", not whether they are canonically princesses. Let's stay on-topic. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:53, March 20, 2025 (EDT)


====Princess Comments, Peach====
@SeanWheeler: Why is shortening names a bad thing? If the shortened name is the more current title of a character or game, shouldn't the article be moved to the more current title? The length of the titles of the characters is not the main issue here; it's how current those titles are. [[User:Mari0fan100|Mari0fan100]] ([[User talk:Mari0fan100|talk]]) 20:41, November 9, 2024 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
I shared this in private, but I was encouraged to relay this here. I principally feel a dogmatic adherence to consistency for the sake of consistency or policy for the sake of policy can lead to bad decisions. The actions proposed should stand on their own merits, and I feel like this proposal has not really made that case, or at least not to me. Regardless of how folks personally feel, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy are still regularly used in official capacities. In the headers of booklets, encyclopedias, and on the backs of merchandise. Even within in-game dialogue, especially for Peach. They are part of the general parlance and lexicon of people who play these games and are familiar with these characters. However, some folks in opposition seem to be acting like these names are inherently invalid or as archaic as the name "Princess Toadstool" or "King Koopa." If they aren't legitimately retired by the publisher and are interchangeable with "Peach" and "Daisy" in a way "Professor Elvin Gadd" or even "Princess Rosalina" never were for their characters, then why is it detrimental that they're the default names of their respective articles? What is the substantive harm? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:52, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
===Either remove non-English names from cartoon dubs that weren't overseen by Nintendo or affiliated companies, or allow English names from closed captions===
:That first bit about consistency also works as an argument for why Peach and Daisy don't necessarily need to be "consistent" with each other regarding whether they use the long names. Anyway, I believe that "Daisy" being the preferred official name over "Princess Daisy" is incredibly clear, and the fact that a name is sometimes used in certain cherry-picked instances doesn't override the most common and prominent usages. Everything you say about the current names being used in official sources and being familiar to fans applies just as well if not better to the names this proposal seeks to change to. You're right that the current names are used more than something like "Professor Elvin Gadd", but it's not like that has to be the cutoff point (and as I said earlier, you could certainly make an argument that Princess Daisy has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|which you even supported shortening]]). Keeping it the way it is does not cause "substantive harm", exactly, but I don't remember anyone ever arguing that it does - the benefit of the move is to be more accurate to the overwhelming majority of official sources. And I do not understand your characterisation of this as "policy for the sake of policy", it's for the sake of accuracy to the source material, which the wiki is always striving for.<br>Here's a hypothetical to consider: if it happened that the wiki's article on Daisy had always used the name "Daisy" (and assuming everything else about the situation was unchanged), do you think you'd be pushing for a move to "Princess Daisy"? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 23:07, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
"What does one have to do with the other?" You'll see!
::Potentially, yes. I would. Because I think Princess Daisy is more inherently clarifying as the article title and it is exercised in modern contexts that I think are more directly parallel to how one would title articles in referential material like ours. I think there are sometimes different goals and incentives for character selection screens and the like. For example, at the end of ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' Peach is simply called "Princess," but if this site only covered SMB2, I would argue our article name for her should be "Princess Toadstool" despite it not being the name in-game.
::My view in the previous proposal on this, as well as the one concerning the Koopalings, has evolved over time. I think "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" are better, more intuitive, and more clarifying article titles (especially for the former, though I do admittedly still prefer the parallel between Peach and Daisy. That's a bit less important though). In my experience, most people who engage with Nintendo games and ''Mario'' do not know these characters simply as "Peach" and "Daisy." So when you have these more clarifying names exercised in the modern era - in instruction booklets, encyclopedias, general official media, etc. - alongside the more familial "Peach" and "Daisy," what benefit does changing those names bring us? Because if anything it could create instances of navigating the site to find articles on these characters more difficult for some visitors by making their roles more opaque, at least peripherally. So I don't see any gain from this tradeoff, or an improvement of accuracy. I see it as trading a slightly more clarifying, valid, and exercised name for one that is equally valid but less clarifying. The only real benefit is that it can make piping links easier in the body texts of articles for editors, but I am personally more than willing to sacrifice editorial convenience to clarify things for readers when the option is there. I help maintain this site for them primarily, and it is for similar reasons why I did not simply title [[Crossovers with The Legend of Zelda|this article]] "''The Legend of Zelda''." - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:35, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
:::Admittedly, this response is based on personal life experience, but we've had basically the opposite happen to us; sure, people generally get it when you say "Princess Peach", but tend to raise eyebrows at "Princess Daisy" over just calling her Daisy. Calling Rosalina by "Princess Rosalina" is then promptly seen as an ''extreme'' over-correction if it's explained to them. Having quick-fire asked both friends and family about this, "Daisy" came up every time over "Princess Daisy", sans one instance of someone mistaking her for Rosalina and one giving an obvious joke answer, and in the former case, even ''then'' they omitted "Princess". Admittedly, there is probably a very large bias among family members at play as we have a dog expressly named Daisy, and our sample size here is incredibly small as this was very spur of the moment, late at night.<br>Even still, the total lack of ''any'' "Princess" particles at all here definitely reflects a very different lived experience, so while we definitely can't speak for everyone--it would be extremely silly of us to try to assert that your peers don't include "Princess" just because ours don't, that's absurd!--we can definitely vouch that, in our corner of the world, the "Princess" particle tends to be omitted. Make of this what one may, we just thought we'd share our own experiences here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 00:28, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
:::"Princess Daisy" is the name used much less by fans in my experience too. If there actually are fans who primarily use "Princess Daisy" (ignoring for a moment the fact that I don't think that matters), I do think it's at least plausible that the wiki's usage of the name is part of the reason. Also, why is "clarification" such a big deal anyway? People who know about the Mario franchise would expect an article called "Daisy" to be about the major recurring character called that, I don't see any real potential for confusion. We shouldn't be sacrificing accuracy to appeal to some hypothetical minority who wouldn't understand what the page was about if we removed the word "Princess" from the title (and who for some reason can't just glance at the start of the article for two seconds to immediately find out). Also, this list you keep giving of "instruction booklets, encyclopedias, general official media, etc." - what exactly is this referring to? In your vote you listed Super Mario Land (so old that Peach was still Toadstool), the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia (seriously?), and "licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy" (which have never taken priority over the video games in any case I'm aware of, and which often use the shortened name anyway). I'm not a big fan of ignoring the naming policy's guidance to cherry-pick sources that use the name we'd rather have. The usage of shortened "Daisy" is not limited to character select screens as you keep implying - for instance, see the links I provided in an earlier comment, which show that most official websites use the names "Princess Peach" and "Daisy". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:11, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
::::I do not agree that "Daisy" is a more accurate article title than "Princess Daisy." I think they are equally as valid, same with "Princess Peach" and "Peach," but again, I admittedly feel more strongly for her than Daisy. As others have mentioned, she even had a game published last year that referred to her as "Princess Peach" in the ''title''. It would be disingenuous to say "Daisy" is not used more often than "Princess Daisy," but the latter ''is'' used, whether it is in contexts you personally think should be considered valid or not. This was part of what I was saying with people treating these names as outdated and erroneous as "Princess Toadstool." These names are exercised in the modern era. So I do not think we are sacrificing accuracy by retaining the names we have. But we are sacrificing clarification, which is something I care about in maintaining reference material aimed for the public to read. This isn't a site just to be edited. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:55, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
:::::I still don't understand what clarification issues you think would be caused by moving to the subject's more common name. I don't know why "Daisy" would be any less clear as an article title than "Rosalina" or "Pauline" or any character name, but if there was anyone who didn't know what it meant, their confusion would be instantly quelled if they just looked at the article for a second or two. I can't imagine any context in which the supposed loss of clarity would be a problem. I'm still neutral regarding whether to move Peach since I think the argument against it is more reasonable than it is with Daisy, but I'll point out that it being used in a title isn't necessarily a deciding factor - [[Mario]] the character isn't titled "Super Mario" (which is used in the titles of some games that lack the [[Super Mario (form)|form]]). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:31, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
:::For what it's worth, Nintendo101's messages here more or less match my opinion on this subject entirely. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 09:14, March 22, 2025 (EDT)


Back in 2021, there was a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#"Closed caption of the Mario cartoons"|proposal]] to allow closed captions used on ''Mario'' cartoons uploaded or streamed officially online to be used as sources on the wiki. It encountered massive opposition, with one comment left by a user in a previous discussion acting as the cornerstone of the opposition's rationale. The link intended to lead to that comment, seen under that proposal, doesn't do its job any more, so I'm copy-pasting it here for your convenience.
===Merge the "did not reach consensus" and "tied" proposal outcomes on the archives===
<blockquote><span class="quote" style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:11pt;font-style:italic">“re closed caption: The relation between WildBrain and video streaming platforms like Netflix is the same one Nintendo has with retaillers like Gamespot: meaning the owner of the property sells the product to the retailler/streaming website, and they may supply other material (like artwork, press releases, etc) to help the client market the product. However, that doesn't mean everything the client does with the product is now official; for instance, Gamespot has in the past created fake placeholder boxarts for Mario games using edited official artwork. Gamestop may be an authorized (or "official") retailler of Mario products but it doesn't make those placeholder boxarts by association as they were made entirely by Gamespot without inputs from the creators of the source material.
{{Early notice|March 27, 2025}}
This came up in the comments at the tail end of my poll proposal archive proposal. A grand total of four proposals have "tied" and are therefore represented by brown. Notably, nobody decided [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/73#Create_a_template_to_direct_the_user_to_a_game_section_on_the_corresponding_List_of_profiles_and_statistics_page|'''this''' proposal]] would be brown even though, by any reasonable definition of "tie", it is one. I take this as a sign that this distinction isn't really... suiting the reality of the proposal page. After all, what makes a tie so different that it needs its own color, when it's just a particular arrangement that a failure of consensus can land on?


“In that respect, closed captions fall in the same category as placeholder retailler-made boxarts. Closed captions are made by people with no relation to the source material or access to behind-the-scenes material like script, and who are just writing down what they hear by ear. They are not an acceptable source for spellings.”</span>
By the way, one color has to win out in the merge, and my view is: '''it will be brown'''. This is going to sound hugely pedantic, but I don't think white is good for a proposal archive color, at least not one with this meaning. Outside of the new dark mode, it looks like it doesn't ''have'' a background. That makes it look like some state inherently separate from the others, or like some kind of blank state with no meaning, or like it's related to what gray means. This isn't any of those; it's a pretty normal fate for a proposal to meet. Brown is more in line with the look of the others, and it looking close to "no quorum" better conveys its similar meaning. (Arguably you could merge in "no quorum", too. I'm not here to make that argument <s>but if I was, we should obviously use orange</s>.) Therefore, I say we're merging them to brown.


~ '''{{user|Glowsquid}}, 2021'''
'''Proposer''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
</blockquote>
'''Deadline''': April 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT


This is valid. In all this talking about what is official and what is not, I suppose it feels right to draw a concrete line somewhere. Someone who acquires the rights to use Nintendo's or one of their partners' IP to use it for a given purpose is technically an authorized party, but they're no authority themselves over the content within. Makes sense.
====Support====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} makes perfect sense
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us; as it stands, both "ties" and "failed to reach consensus" are in this weird spot where it's unclear which of the two you're meant to even use outside of, y'know, ''if the vote count literally ties'', which isn't a particularly helpful distinction as far as the archive is concerned.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} What is even the difference between these two outcomes anyway?
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} (Insert the "Corporate wants you to find the difference" image here.) Per all.
<s>{{User|Mushroom Head}} A tie is so mathematically so damn improbable it is absurd it still is separate from no consensus.</s>


...Meaning the multilanguage names invoked in the proposal's title stick out all the more like a sore thumb. A good chunk of them, at least. Why would the wiki treat a studio or company that dubs and distributes syndicated Mario cartoons to a given demographic as particularly authoritative over the content? Ultimately, it's the same situation as the one described in the quote, the apparent clincher being that it's in a different language, and I apologize, but I don't see how it is consistent to prohibit third-party English subtitles but allow foreign dubs by people that are just as far-removed from the parent company. I propose a compromise.
====Oppose====


Of course, not all foreign dubs would be off limits as sources should the second option of this proposal win. If one can provide sufficient proof that a given dub was supervised by one or more employees representing a company with authority over the original product, i.e. that the company left their mark on the endeavor, sourcing it is absolutely fine. As it stands, though, I can already point to the Romanian dubs of the Mario DIC cartoons as ineligible for sourcing given my failing to find any evidence DIC Entertainment ever put its signature on them. (This is coming from someone who contributed a significant amount of names from these dubs. Sometimes you gotta kill your darlings.)
====Comments====
there's something to be said about the fact that the proposals are color-coded in the first place (which is VERY inaccessible to colorblind folks, people using screenreaders, and people who do not remember each color-outcome connection by heart), but that's for another proposal. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 10:09, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
:Agreed, having some kind of symbology or just writing out the outcome in the proposal listing alongside the current color schemes would be a big improvement. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 10:12, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
:There's a reason we've thus far yet to even think about touching proposal colors for darkmode; among other reasons, like "who has ever used wikitable wario?", we're kinda hoping a more sophisticated thing comes along for the colorblind on the off-chance we can actually incorporate that thing somehow. Symbols in particular sounds very nice. <s>also the idea of having to darkmode white ''and'' gray is a Nightmare Scenario so here's hoping this can rectify that one!</s> {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 10:54, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
:Wasn't a feature recently added where you can scroll over the result and it states what it means? Or does this not work on screenreaders? [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:58, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
::that feels like more of a bandaid fix. i think a better solution would rework how [[Template:Proposal archive]] looks to present the data in a cleaner way. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 12:49, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
:maybe we could use some symbols like triangles or squares. {{User:Mushroom Head/sig}} 08:10, March 21, 2025 (EDT)


"'''So if option 1 wins, 'Ahehehaue' is considered official again?'''"
===Allow English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia names to be mentioned on articles where they are not the title===
{{Early notice|March 27, 2025}}
To be as clear as possible, '''this proposal will not affect any article titles.''' It is specifically about article content. With that out of the way...


No. That doesn't come from a closed caption, and I consider WildBrain's issue of circular sourcing to be a whole other can of worms best left out of this week's topic.
So [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Citing the Super Mario Encyclopedia|this classic proposal]] passed to ban any citations of the English version of the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]. Then [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially unban citing the English version of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia as official names for subjects|this later proposal]] passed to allow the book to be cited, but only for subjects with no other official English names. I think this makes sense and doesn't need changing as far as article titles go, but the problem is that it creates an awkward inconsistency where only articles whose titles come from the book are allowed to acknowledge it. For example, [[Pipe Fist]] can use the encyclopedia as a citation for the name, but [[Winged Strollin' Stu]] can't even mention the existence of the "Soarin' Stu" name.


(added 17:42, October 30, 2024 (EDT)) "'''Does the proposal extend to the live-action segments of the ''Super Show''?'''"
There are a few reasons why I think it would make sense for wiki articles to be allowed to mention weird names from the encyclopedia:
*It's official information, so it makes sense to document it if we want to be informative and comprehensive. An all-or-nothing system where the names have to be either the title of the article or not mentioned at all feels unintuitive.
*There seem to be some cases where this is already done. For example, the [[Yellow ledge]] article mentions Encyclopedia's "Ladyfinger Lift" name, with a citation and everything, despite it not being the title.
*The information is also already covered on the wiki on the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]] page itself, which has a nice list detailing all the stuff the book got wrong or took from the wiki. If we're covering it anyway, I don't see why we shouldn't also put this relevant information on the pages about each individual subject.
*The wiki normally is allowed to mention official names even if it thinks they're wrong. For example, the [[Cleft]] page makes it clear that the "Moon Cleft" name from Super Paper Mario is a translation mistake, but it still mentions it anyway. And there are other cases similar to Encyclopedia where we do this kind of thing: the [[Polterpiranha]] page isn't called "Ghost", yet it still explains that "Ghost" is the name used for them in Smash games. The [[Nipper Dandelion]] page even explains the situation of how its name was a fan name before it was an official name.
*Although the aforementioned [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially unban citing the English version of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia as official names for subjects|proposal]] that allowed the Encyclopedia to be cited was intended to have it as a special case with the absolute lowest priority on the [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policy]]'s list of sources, that has since been overridden by [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider Nintendo's website filenames being used as a source|another proposal]] that introduced website filenames as an even lower-priority naming source, and the naming policy explicitly ''encourages'' mentioning those weird alternate names. So if we're allowed to mention names that are less trustworthy than Encyclopedia's, why shouldn't we mention Encyclopedia's names too?


Yes, they're within the same package.
If this proposal passes, articles will be allowed to mention alternate names from the Encyclopedia even if they are not being used as the title. For example, [[Comet Luma]]'s article could start with something like:
<blockquote>
'''Comet Luma''', referred to as '''Lumacomète''' in the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'',<sup>{{color|blue|[1]}}</sup> is a unique [[Luma]] found in ...
</blockquote>


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
Or, if we want to make it more clear that we think the name is wrong, maybe even:
'''Deadline''': November 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT
<blockquote>
'''Comet Luma''', erroneously referred to by its French name '''Lumacomète''' in the English ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'',<sup>{{color|blue|[1]}}</sup> is a unique [[Luma]] found in ...
</blockquote>


====Allow the sourcing of English closed captions from officially uploaded and streamed ''Mario'' animated works====
Or maybe we could exclude the name from the intro and mention it later in the article, perhaps in a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/74#Retool the Names in other languages section into a more general etymology section|"Naming" section]], similar to what [[Nipper Dandelion]] and [[Yellow ledge]] are already doing. Perhaps that could even give us more room to explain where the name came from like the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]] article does.
#{{User|Hewer}} Perhaps I just have a more liberal understanding of "official" (as an Ahehehauhe defender), but after proposals like [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Allow/prohibit fan work by former Nintendo staff|this]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Allow quotes of characters being voiced by their official actors in unofficial media|this]], and [[Talk:Fangamer#Delete this article|this]], I feel like all these should be close enough to official to be worth documenting. And aren't games like [[Hotel Mario]] a bit of a similar case, where the "official" involvement didn't go much further than licensing them?
<blockquote>
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I think the difference between closed captions and placeholder retailer box art is that the closed captions are a(n optional) part of the media as it can be officially experienced. As such, I think it counts as "official" regardless of who did it.
;[[Comet Luma#Naming|Naming]]
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Well, we would need some kind of source for names of characters that never appeared in English localizations.
Comet Luma is one of the few characters in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' to not have a published official name for English releases of the game, nor in any official paratext for ''Super Mario Galaxy'' like the instruction booklet or [[Prima Games]] guidebook. In dialogue, [[Rosalina]] refers to it as "the Luma who knows about such things [about Prankster Comets]" and [[Polari]] does not mention its name in the English localization. The English translation of the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'' erroneously refers to it by its French name "Lumacomète",<sup>{{color|blue|[1]}}</sup> which was used as the title of its article on the Super Mario Wiki fan website from 2012 to 2018 (being briefly changed in 2014 and 2015).
#{{User|Pseudo}} These names would be familiar to some viewers of the material, if nothing else, and it seems a bit odd to consider them completely unofficial even if they weren't overseen by the original creators.
</blockquote>
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} a license is a license
Or we could cut out that last bit mentioning the wiki by name. The point of this proposal is less to decide exactly how we integrate these into articles and more just to clarify that we are allowed to.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all. I still believe that these should still count as official enough, as they are the providers of the content and it's like a license of a license.


====Remove names that originate from non-English dubs of ''Mario'' animated works that were not overseen by Nintendo or an affiliated company====
Again, to be incredibly clear, <big>'''this proposal is not about changing any article titles. The current naming policy will not be changed at all by this proposal.'''</big> This is merely about allowing articles to mention alternate names that aren't being used as the title. If this proposal fails, I suppose [[Yellow ledge]] and any other articles mentioning the Encyclopedia names will have them removed (though I'd imagine the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]] page itself would still be able to keep its list of errors).
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal. I found the argument persuasive.


====Do nothing====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Hewer}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Comments (closed captions vs. foreign dubs proposal)====
====Support (allow English Encyclopedia names to be mentioned on articles where they aren't the title)====
Waltuh... I'm not voting right now, Waltuh... {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:01, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, referred to as "Per all" in the ''Super Mario Wiki Encyclopedia'', is a common vote reasoning found in proposals.
#{{User|RetroNintendo2008}} This sounds very reasonable! I especially like the clarification regarding the names from the encyclopedia not being fully correct.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} this is exactly the kind of stuff i envisioned for the Naming sections! very good idea, per proposal
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Tentative support. I think this can be helpful for readers visiting the site, especially if integrated as LinkTheLefty suggested.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} As long as it's kept to the naming sections, this should be fine. I'm surprised we don't allow it already.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Waluigi Time/EvieMaybe--these being in the naming section would be a very obvious inclusion.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Seems like an excellent use of the recently revamped Naming sections! These names shouldn’t be neglected entirely.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.


{{@|Koopa con Carne}} By "not overseen by Nintendo/DiC", do you mean they gave the go-ahead but didn't have any direct involvement in production, or the dubs were produced by a third party with no permission whatsoever? I'd consider being more charitable for the former, but if it's completely unauthorized then that's basically equivalent to a bootleg or fan translation and probably shouldn't be covered. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:07, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose (ban English Encyclopedia names from being mentioned on articles where they aren't the title)====
:First one. The proposal only touches on the scenario where a company that airs a dubbed ''Mario'' cartoon has a license to do so from the work's owner. Anything outside of such a licensing agreement is completely unofficial, like you pointed out. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:42, October 30, 2024 (EDT), edited 17:44, October 30, 2024 (EDT)


Added stipulation that the proposal extends to live-action ''Super Show'' segments. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:42, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
====Comments Encyclopedia====
:What is "Ahehehauhe?" [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:29, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
(Is the tier below ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' even presently used for ''any'' article title?) The <nowiki>{{encyclopedia}}</nowiki> template was modeled after <nowiki>{{conjecture}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{another language}}</nowiki>, and in the latter case, the information is normally relegated to the "Names in other languages" section. I think that the revamped "Naming" section would be a good place to put ''Encyclopedia'' names if this passes. There are too many instances, like with several ''Super Mario Galaxy'' instances, where the ''Encyclopedia'' name is outright confused with something else, and putting those details in the introductory paragraph could cause even more confusion. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:10, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
::It's a [https://youtu.be/OdLFZ5RAPTU clip] of a ''Super Show'' episode uploaded to YouTube by WildBrain, the current owners of most of DIC Entertainment's library (including their Mario shows). On the wiki, "Ahehehauhe" used to redirect to that episode's article because it was deemed an "official" alternate title given WildBrain's ownership status over the material, which many found outrageous since it barely passes as a "title" and is simply a transcription of the characters cackling in that clip. We don't even know if a human consciously named the clip that; it could've been a bot. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:28, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:Yeah, that sounds fair enough. And I don't think any articles currently use titles from website filenames, it was just added to the naming policy as a failsafe in the off chance we ever get a subject not named by any other sources. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:41, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
::Now, "Ahehehauhe" isn't linked to the WildBrain-related circular sourcing issues I mentioned in the proposal (they used names from the wiki in promotional texts, which Ahaha isn't one of). However, if the same policy used for the English Super Mario Encyclopedia is to be applied to WildBrain on the same grounds, then the only case where a name they used for a given subject should be employed by the wiki is (a) if the name didn't come from the wiki in the first place, and (b) there are no other known names for that subject. Even if we're to consider Ahahahue a unique and proper way to call an episode of a TV show, its use would still be untenable under the second point. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:39, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
::We might want to temporarily trim that from the naming policy if it's not currently being used, or merge it with rest of the dev data tier (since it'd use that template anyway), since an unused tier is probably a sign that it's starting to get a bit much... But anyway, what about quotes from the book that aren't name-related? For example, the [[MIPS]] article uses ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' as a source for him being Peach's pet rabbit. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:52, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
:::If the same ''Encyclopedia'' logic applied, shouldn't it still be a redirect at least? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
:::I'd say those sound reasonable to allow as well if this passes. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:29, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
::::Ah, I didn't know that was the case with the Encyclopedia. Still, I don't think many would be keen on treating an onomatopoeia as an alternate title for an episode anyhow. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:11, November 9, 2024 (EST)
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 04:35, March 26, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Wednesday, March 26th, 11:35 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
  2. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  3. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."

Poll proposal formatting

As an alternative to the basic proposal format, users may choose to create a poll proposal when one larger issue can be broken down into multiple sub-issues that can be resolved independently of each other. In a poll proposal, each option is essentially its own mini-proposal with a deadline and Support/Oppose subheadings. The rules above apply to each option as if it were a its a two-option proposal: users may vote Support or Oppose on any number of options they wish, and individual options may close early or be extended separately from the rest. If an option fails to achieve quorum or reach a consensus after three extensions, then the status quo wins for that option by default. If all options fail, then nothing will be done.

To create a poll proposal, copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the option deadlines will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}

====[option title (e.g. Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 3)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

For the purposes of the ongoing proposals list, a poll proposal's deadline is the latest deadline of any ongoing option(s). A poll proposal is archived after all of its options have settled, and it is listed as one single proposal in the archive. It is considered to have "passed" if one or more options were approved by voters (resulting in a change from the status quo), and it is considered to have "failed" if all options were rejected by voters and no change in the status quo was made.

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{ongoing TPP}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles and Super Mario Run.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Split Mario & Luigi badges and remaining accessories, Camwoodstock (ended February 1, 2025)
Merge Chef Torte and Apprentice (Torte), Camwoodstock (ended February 3, 2025)
Merge intro/outro sections, rename Gameplay section to "Overview" for Mario Party minigame articles, ToxBoxity64 (ended March 1, 2025)
Add headings for first topics of talk pages that lack one, Jdtendo (ended March 17, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Merge Wiggler Family to Dimble Wood, Camwoodstock (ended January 11, 2025)
Create a catch-all Poltergust article, Blinker (ended January 21, 2025)
Give the Cluck-A-Pop Prizes articles, Camwoodstock (ended January 31, 2025)
Reverse the proposal to trim White Shy Guy, Waluigi Time (ended February 8, 2025)
Split Animal Crossing (game), Kaptain Skurvy (ended February 12, 2025)
Split the modes in the Battles page, Mario (ended February 15, 2025)
Count ongoing serialized comics for latest appearances, Rykitu (ended March 2, 2025)
Split Toad wearing headphones off from Jammin' Toad, PrincessPeachFan (ended March 7, 2025)
Split Super Mario Maker helmets from Buzzy Shell and Spiny Shell (red), PopitTart (ended March 12, 2025)
Restructure Yoshi's Island (series) into Yoshi (series), PopitTart (ended March 19, 2025)
Merge Beanbean Coin to Coin, PrincessPeachFan (ended March 22, 2025)
Merge Mario Party 4 hosts with their species, Kirby the Formling (ended March 23, 2025)

Writing guidelines

Discourage the use of directives from a third-person perspective

Based on the vote so far, this option may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on March 31, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the option if applicable.

This proposal aims to discourage the use of making the articles read like a strategy guide from a third-person perspective. It's a big pet peeve of mine, and I cannot begin to list how many times I've seen phrases like "the player must" or "the character has to" when the gameplay experience is relative to the player, especially in open world and role-playing games. Even if the gameplay is linear and straightforward, there are still different ways of wording something.

  • "Mario must stomp a Goomba to defeat it." can be written as "Mario can stomp a Goomba to defeat it."
  • "The solo player must knock their rivals off the stage." can be written as "The solo player can knock their rivals off the stage to win."

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk) (blocked)
Deadline: April 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support, including level, minigame/microgame, and game articles

Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposal.

Support, excluding level, minigame/microgame, and game articles

Oppose

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Hewer and Salmancer in the comments. "Can" implies a level of optionality that isn't suitable for, say, Mario Party minigames, which have one win condition and no alternatives.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Per Hewer, Salmancer, and Ahemtoday.
  3. Hewer (talk) Per my comments. I get where this proposal is coming from, but I don't think replacing "must" with "can" solves any problems.
  4. Pseudo (talk) Per all. This is perfectly reasonable language to use on a video game wiki.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) Per others; "can" only makes sense in situations where there are multiple options, and a blanket change like this naturally ignores the cases where there's really only one option. This is something that's far better dealt with on a case-by-case basis, not all at once.
  6. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all. I don't see much of a problem with the current writing - we're detailing a video game series, it's going to read a little like a strategy guide from time to time - but even if it were a problem, this isn't the solution. Wording like "The solo player can knock their rivals off the stage to win." makes it more unclear by implying there's other ways to win the minigame.
  7. Mario (talk) Pedantic
  8. Power Flotzo (talk) Change for the sake of change. Per all.
  9. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  10. Ray Trace (talk) No.
  11. Sparks (talk) Per all.

Comments

I would say "Mario must stomp a Goomba to defeat it" is objectively true, as in, Mario stomping on a Goomba is a requirement for defeating it, without necessarily implying that defeating it is something he must do in general. The second example could similarly work if you just add "to win" on the end ("The solo player must knock their rivals off the stage to win"). I don't like "The solo player can knock their rivals off the stage to win" as much because the usage of "can" implies that there are other ways in which the player could win. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:42, March 24, 2025 (EDT)

To me, it reads too much like a strategy guide and not a formal encyclopedic resource. Super Mario RPG (talk) 09:43, March 24, 2025 (EDT)
I disagree. We already avoid strategy guide-like writing by not referring to the reader. I don't see how adding a bit more ambiguity when describing what the player is meant to do helps. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:50, March 24, 2025 (EDT)

This is a wiki about video games, of which the majority of them of which have goals, win states, fail states, and very linear ways to reach win states. I don't think moving away from "must" or "is required to" is going to make explanations any clearer, especially for situations where there is only one possible action (the average microgame, and a decent number of minigames), situations where order is critically important (puzzle games, like levels of Mario vs Donkey Kong), and situations regarding game structure (defeat the boss to unlock the next world). I would only support this proposal if it has no effect on game articles, minigame articles, and level articles. Salmancer (talk) 09:46, March 24, 2025 (EDT)

@Salmancer Okay, I've added the option earlier. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:52, March 24, 2025 (EDT)

The only benefit I can see to this is when there are alternatives available (ie, Goombas can also be defeated with other attacks... not to mention all the nonsense on Tick-Tock Clock's pages I had to remove about some missions "needing" the clock to be on to complete them, or that chunked Luma in one of the Battlerock Galaxy's level's "needing" to be hit twice, because there's a decent amount of that kind of writing covering up pure skill issues). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:48, March 24, 2025 (EDT)

Standardize "Game appearances" and/or "Appearances" as the section title over "History"

This is another proposal I've meant to create for a while now, when I saw @CyonOfGaia accidentally add it to the sandbox page while drafting Mario vs. Donkey Kong level pages.

Currently, the "History" section is mandated. The problem I have with the title is that "History" suggests a chronological order, but that is only enforced within the series' sub-sections. Not to mention there is almost no continuity in the Super Mario franchise. Besides continuity, "History" also evokes the thought of years, and I almost never see those mentioned in articles. Also, history could ambiguously mean real life as well, which it typically does.

"Appearances" is a more clear title because it narrows down the definition to only what the subject is as it appears in the games. "Game appearances" can be used to clarify subjects that appear only in video games and no other media, but the section heading should be changed to "Appearances" if it appears in other forms of media, too. I'll make two options in the proposal if some think "Appearances" is sufficient enough.

Edit: This will affect "History of" pages like History of Mario to become Appearances of Mario, but in case that's the only part of the proposal one disagrees with, I've added Option 3, which is the same as Option 2, but will keep the "History of" title intact for all articles under Category:Histories and its subcategories.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk) (blocked)
Deadline: April 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: Support, as "Game appearances" or "Appearances"

Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposal.

Option 2: Support, with only "Appearances"

  1. Hewer (talk) Honestly, I don't mind this idea. "Appearances" communicates what the section is about a bit more clearly than "History". (Though option 1 doesn't make sense to me, it would just create a completely needless inconsistency.)

Super Mario RPG (talk) Secondary choice.

Option 3: Support, but keep "History of" prefix

Super Mario RPG (talk) Third choice.

Oppose

  1. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per MarioWiki:Manual of Style § History: "Appearances in the History section are organized according to the international release date of defined franchise (as opposed to general franchises), series, and independent titles, regardless of the "media" form the appearance takes." To my understanding, this means history sections are sorted by the release date of the respective games/other media contained within the section, so the "History" section is in fact chronological. Besides that, an "Appearances" section, especially as an article title such as "Appearances of Mario", implies that the section/article is just a list of the media in which the subject appears, when these sections actually contain a detailed description of each past appearance, which is the dictionary definition of "history".
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) needless change for change's sake
  3. Ray Trace (talk) No.
  4. Technetium (talk) It's fine as is.

Comments

So would pages like History of Mario would be moved to "Appearances of Mario"? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:13, March 24, 2025 (EDT)

I'll make an option for that. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:52, March 24, 2025 (EDT)

@ThePowerPlayer: History sections aren't really chronological because they're sorted by series. For example, on History of Mario, Super Mario Odyssey comes before Mario Kart 64. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:36, March 25, 2025 (EDT)

Fair enough. They do still chronicle all of the past appearances of a subject, though, which is what "history" means. ThePowerPlayer Slug.png ThePowerPlayer 22:47, March 25, 2025 (EDT)

--Weegie baby (talk) 04:35, March 26, 2025 (EDT)==New features==

Allow pages for the Captain N episodes where Donkey Kong is a central character

Captain N: The Game Master is an odious travesty of a cartoon that has a page on here because Donkey Kong is a recurring character. It's classified as a "Guest Appearance" by Mariowiki:Coverage and that's really the best spot for it: Donkey Kong only appears in a few episodes (7 out of 34), is not central to the premise of the show and beside him being there, the cartoon doesn't pull much from Mario or related properties.

Most of Donkey's appearance in the show are padding or sight gags, but three episodes stand out for having him be central to their plot:

  • Simon the Ape-Man: Simon Belmont gets a big bonk on the head, believes himself to be DK Jr, and tries to rejoin his "father" while the other protagonists try to stop him:
  • Queen of the Apes: An experiment by Dr. Wily causes Donkey Kong, Mother Brain, and Game Boy to exchange their brains.
  • The Lost City of Kongoland: The protagonists explore Donkey Kong's dimension and help him get rid of plant monsters.

I believe the wiki would be served by allowing pages for these three episodes for the following episodes:

  • These are Extremely Important bits of Donkey Kong lore that warrant a complete summary instead of having incomplete fragments spread out over the involved character's pages.
  • It will make it easier for other editors to summarize content for the Definitely-About-To-Exist-Any-Days-Nows pages of Crossover with Castlevania, Crossover with Mega Man, Crossover with Metroid and Crossover with Kid Icarus pages without having to suffer the psychic damage of watching Captain N themselves
  • The wiki would only find itself blessed and see its quality greatly increases by having more content describing the actions of Captain N Simon Belmont, who is AWESOME.

Mariowiki:Coverage notes "Please note that a proposal should be made before a game is classified as a "guest appearance", as this is a somewhat tricky distinction and there could easily be disagreement in the community about the extent to which coverage should be granted to any given non-Super Mario game." so that's what I am doing. Nevertheless I am certain I made a perfect case and everyone will agree with me.

Proposer: Glowsquid (talk)
Deadline: April 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support (allow pages for these three Captain N episodes)

  1. Glowsquid (talk) - I don't know who this "Glowsquid" is but I do wish to subscribe to his newspaper.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Makes sense, and it's roughly equivalent to what exists of our Saturday Supercade coverage, but for a series that's far more documented. Per proposal.
  3. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal. Monkey noises.
  4. Apikachu68 (talk) Considering the poor coverage of these episodes on Fandom's Captain N Wiki, each only featuring a short summary of the episode, as well as the general lack of maintenance on the site, I strongly support this proposal.
  5. Mario4Ever (talk) Per proposal.
  6. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Honestly I kinda like the Lost City episode. It helps it's the first time DK has a tie and treehouse.
  7. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Insert DK64 clip of Donkey Kong saying "OKAY!" here.

Status Quo (no pages)

Comments

If this proposal passes, will we add an infobox for the Captain N: The Game Master episodes? Apikachu68 (talk) 20:45, March 25, 2025 (EDT)

why wouldn't we. --Glowsquid (talk) 22:31, March 25, 2025 (EDT)

Create an article for Character Icons

Since emblems have an article, I think character icons should have an article too. I was thinking it could be a gallery. There are just so many character icons for just one character (just see how many Mario’s had)! It could anlso have the same structure as Gallery:Emblem. And it wouldn’t be the first gallery to not have an article talking about the subject. Take “Gallery:Orange Yoshi” as an example. What do you think?

Proposer: Weegie baby (talk)
Deadline: so, I don’t remember when the deadlines of porposals are and don’t know where to look, so someone tell me, please.

Support

Oppose

Comments

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Merge moves exclusive to forms with their respective forms, leaving main article links if they are part of another article. Also replace the Fly article with a list.

Mario’s many, many forms have granted him oh so many forms. These forms grant him many new moves, like swinging a cape, jumping in the air, or even a slew of Link’s moves! Now, how many of these have articles? (Excluding Tail whip)

If you guessed zero, +/- Tail whip, you’re right. This makes sense: If I go to an article on a form, then I want to see all of that form’s nuances. What good is it to have some parts of the benefits conferred by a power-up on a separate page? Imagine if Builder Mario had an article dedicated to swinging its hammer, a core portion of the abilities Builder Mario grants. Imagine if Mole Yoshi had an entire article dedicated to its ability to dig, despite that being the sole move it can do with a button press and digging being its entire point of existing. Imagine if operating the Super Pickax had an entire article separate from the Super Pickax, even though the player doesn’t even have the choice to hold a Super Pickax without using it. (Yes, the act of using a Super Pickax has a name!)

But we’re already doing this, just under the veneer of putting it under existing articles. These articles, for example:

I think this is a flawed line of thinking. For a much as shell dashing and Drill Spinning are moves that can be used by specific forms, they are also benefits conferred by specific forms and power-ups. We should be focusing efforts to improve coverage for such moves on the page for the power-up, as someone who wants to learn everything Shell Mario can do probably shouldn’t have to also check shell dash. Shell Mario should say that shell dashing enemies doesn’t start a point chain. Shell Mario should say if how many hits it takes to defeat a boss with the shell dash. Shell Mario should mention the unique movement opportunities/restrictions of the shell dash compared to base Mario. There shouldn’t be two different articles going into technical detail on a single topic if we can help it, not least because of the potential of a correction to one article not being applied to the other. And if we can only have one super detailed article, then it ought to be the form.

Imagine if we extended the current situation to other named moves of forms? Would Mega Yoshi be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Tail Swipe, on the basis of it having the technical detail of stalling Yoshi’s fall? Even though one needs to know how to Tail Swipe to beat all Mega Yoshi areas? Would Penguin Mario be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Belly Slide? Which is main unique thing about it, given Ice Balls are from Ice Mario and good swimming is from Frog Mario? If we gave the field form of Luiginary Ball a page, would it be.a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Ball Hammer? Again, something necessary to complete the ball's tutorial area?

As such, this proposal aims to just move all the technical details of moves that can only be performed by power-up forms to the form’s page. The section remains, because it’s a part of the move’s conceptual history, using a {{main}} article link to move over to the form for the nitty gritty on how everything about that specific implementation works. For reference look at how Dash handles the Dash (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga) (Relevant Edit) and the Spin Dash (Relevant Edit). Instead of restating the entire move but trying to be a little looser about the mechanics than the main article, it has a note saying “this exists and is a version of the thing this article is about”, and then sends the reader to the main article. It's a more efficient use of bits and our readers' time.

This does not affect moves of non-powered up characters that are modified by the power-up. Flying Squirrel Mario’s high Spin Jumps stay on Spin Jump, Frog Mario's and Penguin Mario’s swimming stay on Swim, Tanooki Mario’s Tail Spin stays on Roll, and so on. This is in addition to these modified versions of moves being written about on their form’s pages. (No, shell dash is not a modified dash. It's a new action that dashing happens to trigger, as indicated by the requirement of dashing and alternate method of crouching on a slope) This proposal does not affect projectiles whose existence is broader than their associated power-up, namely Fireball, Ice Ball, Hammer, and Bubble. Builder Boxes are Crates, so they fall into this bucket. (Superball would be included, but it was merged with Superball Mario years ago and is not included.) This also does not affect character/power-up hybrids. Yoshi's Swallow, Egg Throw, et al, Baby DK's DK Dash Attack, Diddy Kong's Diddy Attack and Barrel Jet, and Rambi's Supercharge and Charge are examples of these exclusions. This is because in some cases the character can use the move without being a power-up, usually because they are playable in a non-power-up capacity. While this isn’t true in every case, it makes sense to extend this grace to all character/power-up hybrids. SMB2 Mario is bizarre, but charge jump is ultimately unaffected. It’s a move of the normal player characters in Super Mario Bros. 2 proper, and the article doesn’t have a Super Mario Maker 2 section to cut down anyway. I’d advocate for adding more charge jump content to the SMB2 Mario article, but that’s not part of the proposal.

Perceptive readers probably realize that this policy would gut Fly, an article entirely about a recurring skill of certain forms/capability of items. An article consisting entirely of {{main}} templates would be bad, right? Au contraire, for this is by design. Fly is trapped in a purgatory where it can’t actually say anything meaningful because all of the data for each of the forms, abilities, and items it’s trying to cover should be on the articles for those things. So it’s a listicle of every game you can fly in with cliff notes about how they work. I guess its a directory for all of the flying skills, but having it be a traditional article makes using Fly as a directory inefficient. At this point, we should embrace the list structure and use it for something lists are good for, comparisons between games. I have compiled a list version of Fly on a userpage, based on the existing List of power-ups. It’s messy and incomplete but I think it’s better than the Fly article. Should this proposal pass, this list will replace the article. As the various contexts of Fly are not the same kind of action to begin with, the article will become List of methods of flight. This broadens the scope to fit all of the components. (Note how "flight" is not a proper noun).

Tail whip was created after I planned this proposal but before I proposed it. If this proposal passes, it gets merged into Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games. This policy devastates Tail Whip in the same way Fly is. Tail Whip can keep its categories as a redirect. While the move may be used by multiple forms, the most basic forms with the attack are more than capable of storing Tail whip's mechanics for the improved versions of White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario to refer to later. This matches how Penguin Mario defers to Ice Mario and Ice Ball. Tails are also on Tail Whip, but Tail handles using Tail and has no need to be listed on another article. Even if we wanted a complete list of games with with tail attacks, Raccoon Mario already mentions Tail. (The situation is also similar to Cape, which used to compile the yellow capes of Cape Mario and Superstar Mario into a listicle before this proposal reduced it to only the Smash Bros. attack.)

Oh yeah and I guess Strike of Intuition is caught in the crosshairs of this since it is a move exclusive to Detective Peach. Given everything else, it gets merged too.

Proposer: Salmancer (talk)
Deadline: March 31, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Merge moves and Listify Fly: Merge moves to forms, and convert Fly into a list with the name List of methods of flight

  1. Salmancer (talk) Per proposal.

Merge moves, Fly is free: Merge moves to forms, but keep Fly as is

Clip Fly's wings: Do not merge moves to forms, change Fly from an article to a list with the name List of methods of flight

Oppose: Status quo

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Many of the moves in question are used by multiple forms, so attempting to merge them to all separately would violate Mariowiki:Once and only once EDIT: which makes determining appearances of the move across different games more difficult to find. Furthermore, we do not merge character-specific moves to their respective pages (other than non-Mario characters in the Super Smash Bros. series) - for instance, look at Scuttle and Flutter Jump - so why should we do so with forms?
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) I don't think we cover moves and other actions particularly well, and I would rather see what that looks like before proposing mergers. Moves are not strictly the same as the form itself (i.e. Flying Squirrel Mario, Power Squirrel Mario, and captured Glydon can all "glide"), and it would be nice to see detail on what the moves are in isolation. Sometimes different power-uped forms perform the same move. A quick look through the fly article indicates there are things lumped together there that really aren't the same thing.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) per all. the current state of the wiki's move coverage just isn't good enough right now to determine whether this proposal would have any benefits. would love to see this proposal again in the future when we have more ground to stand on, but it's not the time right now.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per others; this would probably make more sense if we had more move coverage as a whole, but as for right now, this feels a bit extraneous.

Comments (Merge moves of forms to forms even if they are non-unique and replace Fly with a list)

I am sorry this proposal planned for a while is going to merge an article that was just made. It kind of jumped further up my list of priorities given I don't want people to put hard work into adding to Tail whip if I'm about to try to merge it. Salmancer (talk) 18:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Question; would this merge Fireball Punch, and would this failing result in re-instating Dangan Mario? These manga "forms" are kind of an edge case. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) Camwoodstock-sigicon2.png 18:23, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Oh dear manga questions. From what I understand of things, I think nothing should happen either way. Dangan Mario was an article as a form, so unless it's getting reevaluated to be a named move it stays where it lies. Fireball Punch is tricky. The thing is that this proposal exists because of pressures from the medium of video games. Fireball Punch is from a linear narrative story, there's not really much of a benefit readers gain from merging Fireball Punch because odds are someone looking at Super Mario Wiki to read about Fireball Mario doesn't need to know what a Fireball Punch is soon after. They might not even be reading the fifth chapter of Volume 1, the only place with a Fireball Punch. You can hardly consider the Fireball Punch to be a core part of Fireball Mario like all of the moves involved in the proposal. Fireball Punch is free from this proposal, though someone else might think the lack of length means it should be merged into Fireball Mario given this proposal is merging many longer articles or sections of articles into their home forms. Salmancer (talk) 18:56, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick for your own sake, you should know "once and only once" as a strict policy has been retired. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:18, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Thanks, wish I'd known that before. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:30, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Characters aren't forms, so their moves are unaffected by this proposal, which means Scuttle isn't involved, Character/power-ups are unaffected, so Flutter Jump also isn't affected and you can't loophole abuse your way to merging Scuttle through the Luigi Cap. Forms that are improved versions of other forms already defer to the base form for unchanged abilities they inherit. Ice Mario has two paragraphs dedicated to using Ice Balls See example text of everything Penguin Mario has to say about Ice Balls..

After Mario has become this form, he can throw Ice Balls at enemies and freeze them. Mario can then use the frozen enemies as platforms or pick them up and throw them against the wall or other enemies.

- Penguin Mario

The system works! It's repeated for White Raccoon Mario in relation to Raccoon Mario, as per the line, "It gives the player Raccoon Mario's abilities, causes the P-Meter to charge more quickly, allows the player to run and stand on water (like Mini Mario), and grants invincibility for the stage". It's also done for Power Squirrel Mario to Flying Squirrel Mario, with "As Power Squirrel Mario, Mario has all of the abilities of Flying Squirrel Mario, though he never loses the ability to glide and can perform Flying Squirrel Jumps continuously without landing". Salmancer (talk) 19:35, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

"List of methods of flight" as a name for the userpage was designed to be aware that not everything on Fly is the same kind of move. (and also it managed to morph into a list of all ways to get from point A to point B if point B is higher than point A... and then an extra addendum for hovering over hazards.) Would it be better if it were placed in mainspace as "List of methods of flight"? Salmancer (talk) 19:47, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Regarding your saying that tail whip's info would be moved to Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games, would that not mean that Tanooki Mario's page would not discuss the tail whip until Super Mario 3D Land, despite it being usable by that form in Super Mario Bros. 3? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:53, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Tanooki Mario is already doing exactly that. I don't see anything that makes the article hard to follow, short of it going "there is mandatory reading before reading this article." Which White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario have been doing as well. It's fine.

In this form, he can turn into an invulnerable statue by holding +Control Pad down and pressing B Button at the same time, in addition to using Raccoon Mario's moves, making it an improved version of Raccoon Mario.

- Tanooki Mario, Super Mario Bros. 3 section.

However, the form's mechanics are different from Super Mario Bros. 3, as while Mario can still tail whip (by pressing X Button or Y Button) and glide (now done by holding A Button or B Button, as with Caped Mario, rather than tapping the buttons), he cannot fly during gameplay.

- Tanooki Mario, Super Mario 3D Land section.
Uh, filler text for sig. I guess I'm advocating for building the 3D Land text up more, since that game shouldn't be deferring to Raccoon Mario as it sort of does now. Salmancer (talk) 20:05, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
But how is it superior to do so compared to just having an article for the move? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
Hypothetical: "Wow! Tanooki Mario is so cool! What does he do?/I just beat 3D Land, is there any nuance to it I missed?/Are there any bugs in 3D Land I can exploit with it? I know, I'll go to the Tanooki Mario page on Super Mario Wiki!"
In the current wiki, the three hypothetical people with varying interest in Super Mario read both an article on Tanooki Mario and an article on Tail whip to find everything they want to know. This proposal wants to make all of them only read one article, Tanooki Mario. I think this is better because it saves them the additional click and additional loading time and appeals to lower attention spans. I value these hypothetical readers over the hypothetical reader who is a Mario historian who wants to see the evolution of Tail whip across every game of the franchise. Keep in mind, redirects exist so the earlier three hypotheticals can mostly get to the right page if they zig where I think they'd zag and search for a move name. Okay except for Tail whip in specific because of the 2D/3D split, oof moment. I guess disambiguation pages still let my example work since while there would still be two pages to look at the first of them would be short and quick to load because its a disambig and therefore still superior to having Tail whip as full article alongside Raccoon Mario and Tanooki Mario. Salmancer (talk) 20:59, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
"Gee, I wonder if that cool thing Tanooki Mario does appears in any other games for any other forms?" This is the more likely question that would be asked. Which is why the move page makes more sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:01, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
I think my system still lets that person get to the answers reasonably intuitively. Tanooki Mario says it's super duper Raccoon Mario, so navigating to that page seems reasonable if one wants more tail whipping action. From Raccoon Mario they'll hit Tail. The only odd one out is Mario Kart Super Leaf, which is exclusively covered on Super Leaf, except thanks to Tanooki Mario being playable in Mario Kart Tour with the Super Leaf as his special skill that hypothetical person should still hit Super Leaf. We could just add a Mario Kart series "sentence long section with a {{main}} link" to Raccoon Mario to patch that hole up, and maybe note that giving Tanooki Mario the Super Leaf as a special skill closely reflects the platforming video games, meaning we have all the links the Tail whip article would have without needing to make a Tail whip article.Salmancer (talk) 21:22, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
IMO this just sounds like a lot of confounding mental gymnastics to me and just having a page for the move removes most of the leaps of logic and assumptions on what people will and will not know. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:02, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

On the leading "Princess" for Peach/Daisy/Rosalina, and/or lackthereof

Brace yourselves--this is gonna be a long one.

In July of last year, jan Misali created a proposal to remove the leading "Princess" from the article name for "Princess Daisy". This failed 15-18, as people were interested in a proposal to move Peach alongside this. In November of last year, jan Misali created a follow-up proposal do exactly this, which failed again; among other concerns regarding redirects, most of the support was split between moving both Peach and Daisy to their Princess-less counterparts, and just moving Daisy, leaving the opposition in the lead. Guess third time's the charm.

The question is simple; do we remove "Princess" from the names of the Princess Peach and Princess Daisy articles? Time and time again, we've removed or truncated full names or particles to more common names. However, for whatever reason, the "Princess" particles for Peach and Daisy stick, despite Nintendo being very hit-or-miss about how required these are, especially for Daisy, whose "Princess, despite never doing anything royal outside of her debut" status has been acknowledged, officially, multiple times.

To recap the cases in favor of these renames for people that didn't read those first two proposals, the case for Daisy in particular is very strong, so we'll start with her. Simply put, Nintendo so rarely calls her by the name of "Princess Daisy" that it's starting to become a surprise when they do call her that in things like HotWheels character cars. To re-iterate a point made in jan Misali's original proposal, the count of times where Daisy is overtly referred to as "Princess Daisy" outside of manuals or other such paratexts can be counted on two hands, and even then, only barely; once in Super Mario Bros. Print World (which also erroneously calls Peach "Daisy" at one point), the two baseball games and Fortune Street interchange "Daisy" and "Princess Daisy" in dialogue but all UI uses just "Daisy", Super Mario Run being in a similar boat but with in-game descriptions for Remix 10 instead of dialogue, and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, where Palutena calls her that. In every other case, including her own debut game, she is generally called "Daisy".

For Daisy, there is also the strange asterisk that is her film equivalent, but given the context of the plot of the film itself--that Daisy is unaware of her own royal status for the bulk of the film, and is simply referred to as just "Daisy" for most of it, we personally think it's fair to move her to "Daisy (film character) and add a Full Name parameter to clarify her "Princess Daisy" title she has towards the end. That being said, even her own official trading card just calls her Daisy, and apparently the "Princess Daisy" title only gets dropped on the back of "Sad Goodbyes", which we lack an image for.

The case for Princess Peach is less strong, partially thanks to the release of Princess Peach: Showtime!, a game in 2024 that makes rather overt use of "Princess Peach"; however, it is worth noting that Nintendo still does play rather fast-and-loose with the "Princess" particle for her as well. Most spinoffs will truncate the "Princess" off of her name, as far back as Mario Kart 64 and even after the release of Showtime, later that same year, Super Mario Party Jamboree also truncated the "Princess" off of Peach's name. While we acknowledge it's odd to laser in on exactly one game, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe just calls her "Peach", and that is one of the best-selling games in the entire Mario franchise.

We've seen various arguments against these, and aside from "personal preference for preferring particles", which we obviously can't argue with (at least, not without looking silly), we can't say we understand the majority of them:

  • Concerns were risen about removing royalty particles from other article names, such as Princess Shokora or Princess Shroob or King Bob-omb or Prince Mush (never mind that in his case, it's a stage name and not royalty). In those cases, the characters have never been referred to without their particles that we could find unless there was already an older name in the first place, such as "Big Bob-omb" for "King Bob-omb" (it's possible there's remote dialogue or an obscure Manga appearance we don't have on-record, but we're doubtful). These would retain their particles, as per our Naming policies determining that the most common English name is what is used, and in these cases, the particle is included almost 100% of the time. In contrast, Nintendo has been fairly interchangeable with Peach and Daisy's "princess" particles, and in Daisy's case, her particle has only become increasingly rarer as time goes on. If instances were located where the aforementioned characters lacked their particles short of the Big/King Bob-omb example, that would be something worth acknowledging, but in their cases, the particles being excluded is overwhelmingly the exception, not the norm.
  • Concerns have been risen about the Peach and Daisy article titles potentially referring to generic subjects; however, as of writing this proposal, both "Peach" and "Daisy" directly lead to their corresponding princesses anyways by means of redirects. Other subjects are instead given a "For <x>, see <y>" in the Princess' articles introductions. These redirects are already present as-is, and these changes wouldn't change how a search lands.
  • For internet traffic, given Peach and Daisy already lead to these articles, we still fail to see how this would impact much, unless we intentionally chose to not leave a redirect after a move; it should go without saying that, if we were to make a move of this magnitude, we would absolutely be leaving a redirect.
  • On a meta level, for the "would prefer one, but not the other" angle that was part of the reason the second proposal failed, we have since introduced a poll format to more adequately determine more nuanced situations like this, without risking support being split between two groups and being out-numbered overall.
  • While this was not mentioned in the original proposals to our awareness, we do acknowledge that some people may be concerned about the costs of labor of changing a bunch of links; however, not only could this trivially be an automated rename, something our proprietor already does fairly regularly with template names, even if this were somehow unworkable, we already have ample tools to manually perform such a change built into MediaWiki itself. We are well-aware of what this wiki's userbase can do when it comes to making these mass-changes, and we think we have a very capable userbase when it comes to deploying a change like this, either automatically or by hand.

There are also two characters we think are worth acknowledging, one brought up by jan Misali when we shared this proposal's draft with them, and one we noticed ourselves. For jan Misali's part, there's Bowser, or rather, King Bowser... Or rather, how in-frequently Bowser is known as "King Bowser". It's to the point where mentions of "King Koopa" as he appears in the DiC cartoons severely outnumber the amount of times Bowser is actually called "King Bowser" outright. This is exceedingly non-contentious, and while a King Bowser redirect has existed since 2006, we can't tell when the last time "King Bowser" was overtly used in dialogue. All we can really say is, having played Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser recently, it's not in that, with Bowser usually just being referred to as, well, Bowser, with the occasional uses of "Lord" or other offbeat honorifics instead of "King".

However, to us, the real smoking gun for why a move like this would not only make sense, but be perfectly fine for the wiki, has been sitting right underneath our noses the entire time. Rosalina, or should we say Princess Rosalina? Rosalina has been called a Princess from sources dating as far back as 2010 and as recently as 2023. She's commonly colloquially known as a Princess by fans. Heck, Princess Rosalina is, as of writing this proposal, a valid redirect to her article, and her infobox states her full name is "Princess Rosalina". However, her article has sat at the title of "Rosalina" since its inception back in 2007, with the Princess redirect only being made in 2014. Rosalina is a Featured Article, so her page naturally receives a lot of traffic and scrutiny, but nobody seems to have questioned if it would be worth moving her article to "Princess Rosalina" to match the other two princesses; and while one could argue that Rosalina is "not much of a princess", that naturally begets the response that neither is Daisy, who keeps the particle anyways. There's not really any reason we can think of why Daisy should keep her particle if Rosalina hasn't ever held one and it's seemingly never been questioned, and from there, we could understand removing the particle from Peach's name for parity's sake. (Even still, if you really wanted to, we've provided an option to, in addition for what to do to the "Princess" particles in Peach & Daisy's names, if we should add one to Rosalina's name, or keep it absent. We don't really intend to include something like this for "King Bowser" as, while "Princess Rosalina" at least has a plurality number of cases we could find of that name being used, we could literally only find one "King Bowser", in Nintendo Comics System.)

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)

Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Peach?

Deadline: April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Yes Princess (status quo)
  1. Waluigi Time (talk) Per past me: "I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. [...] Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it." Considering Nintendo used her full name in a game title last year, this would be a really odd time to do it, and it sheds some light on how awkward it is putting so much focus squabbling over the specifics of character select screens and the like, IMO. I don't see a consistency issue with Daisy regardless of what happens with her, they weren't designed to be perfect analogues to each other and are used in different contexts, which also informs Nintendo's usage of their full titles.
  2. Technetium (talk) Per Waluigi Time, past and present.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Much like Daisy, "princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Peach, potentially because they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts where you play as her, or they want to be conservative with text on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Peach" erroneous, archaic, unused, or inappropriate for the title of an article. This is an even stronger case for Peach because she shows up more often in non-playable appearances, where she is typically called "Princess Peach," and they represent the bulk of her history. It is the name used in most instruction booklets, toys, and even in-game. It is not the end of the world for her article to simply go by "Peach," but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining that. "Peach" is more so a shorter derivative of "Princess Peach" than "Bowser" ever was of "King Bowser" or anything like that (and certainly more so than "Princess Rosalina" is for "Rosalina.") You can probably count the number of sources that prefer using that name for him on one hand, unlike Peach.
  4. Rykitu (talk) All 5 Princess Peach games have "Princess" before "Peach" (with the exception of Peach's Puzzle and Parasol Fall, unless you count it's full title being Super Princess Peach — Parasol Fall). It is also used way too commonly by Nintendo so I think it should stay the way it is.
  5. LadySophie17 (talk) Per Waluigi Time and Nintendo101
  6. SGoW (talk) Per all.
  7. Pseudo (talk) While I can understand the desire for consistency with the other two princesses, Princess Peach is clearly her full proper name, being used in the titles of games as well as regularly in various bits of dialogue and paratext. It's true that she's usually just Peach in a character select screen, but I don't think this defines how she is overall perceived... in my subjective experience, she would usually be known by the average person aware of Mario as Princess Peach.
  8. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. She is called Princess Peach a lot more than she is called Peach. I asked my sister (who is a very casual fan) who her favorite character is and she specifically said Princess Peach. General audiences and Nintendo still more frequently call her Princess Peach than they do just calling her Peach.
  9. Sdman213 (talk) per all.
  10. Tails777 (talk) I still stand by Daisy being referred to as her shortened name, but I feel this can be a case where consistency doesn't really need to be a necessity: Princess Peach is still a very commonly used name for Peach herself and while just referring to her as Peach is as common, the full name is still used much more often when compared to Daisy and especially compared to Rosalina.
  11. SmokedChili (talk) Per all. As I’ve said before, keeping these extended names is fine because they work like identifiers and offer clarification pre-emptively and at the first sight. I’ve also pointed out that the current guidelines don’t say anything about extending names based on official material and suggested making them usable (in limited fashion) and prioritized over wiki-made identifiers. And if people seeking a specific Mario subject over a generic one is such a big deal, then add to the guidelines making use of Display Title extension. Like letting ”Peach” redirect to ”Princess Peach” while ”Peach (fruit)” would have the extension to cut (lol) the page title into ”Peach”.
  12. GeneralDonitsky (talk) Per all.
  13. Ray Trace (talk) Per all.
  14. Mario4Ever (talk) Per all.
No Princess
  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. While we think the arguments for keeping Peach's particle are the strongest, namely since we have an entire game from 2024 with the particle in the name, we do think if we remove this from Daisy, we should naturally remove this from Peach for the sake of parity.
  2. LinkTheLefty (talk) Abolish the monarchy.
  3. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) It's just "Peach" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
  5. EvieMaybe (talk) per all
  6. Blinker (talk) Per all. And the use of "Peach" in character select screens is an intentional choice, not due to character constraints, as shown by the existance of names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)".
  7. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all. I'm still not a fan of using abridged names—especially for crossover characters like Fox, Sonic, etc.—but if we want to be consistent about it, something's gotta give.
  8. Pizza Master (talk) per all
  9. PopitTart (talk) I was initially hesitant because of the existence of Princess Peach Showtime, but I was quickly swayed by looking at the game's online store page, which displays the simple "Peach" name no less than a dozen times.
  10. Arend (talk) Look, if Daisy doesn't get to be called a princess anymore (even if she's still being referred to as the princess of Sarasaland to this day), neither can Peach. Should be noted that in Dutch, whenever Peach gets called a princess, it's typically spelled "prinses Peach" without an uppercase P.
  11. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
  12. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) per all

Mushroom Head (talk) The people who type “Princess Peach” into the search bar are nerds.

Super Mario RPG (talk) "Princess" is not part of the name, it's just a title and not as integral to Peach's identity as, for example, Dr. Mario.

Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Daisy?

Deadline: April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Yes Princess (status quo)
  1. Nintendo101 (talk) In my view, "Princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Daisy, which happen to represent the bulk of her appearances. Perhaps they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts, or they want to be conservative with space on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Daisy" erroneous, archaic, or unused. It is the name used in Super Mario Land, the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, and licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy, where she is called "Princess Daisy." It is not the end of the world for her name to go by something else, but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining the status quo.
  2. LadySophie17 (talk) Per Nintendo101
  3. Pseudo (talk) Even if she is to be referred to as Daisy most of the time, Princess Daisy is still clearly her "proper" name in my view. This falls into a similar category to my views on the Peach situation (or Princess Peach, as the case may be); even though it's less supported by in-game usage and the like, this is still the main name that she is known by.
  4. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  5. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.
  6. SmokedChili (talk) Per all, what I said above about Peach.
No Princess
  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. To be honest, this has never been a contest for us; as far back as flavor text in Mario Party 9, Nintendo has acknowledged the weird lack of Damsel-in-distress-ness to Daisy's character, and the usage of "Daisy" in lieu of "Princess Daisy" is as old as Super Mario Land itself. That Daisy's royalty is bordering on in-name only post-Land is practically a defining trait of hers.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per the trilogy of proposals, this is the name that is almost always used for this major character and it is bizarre that we aren't reflecting that. This should've happened long ago, hopefully this new poll format will finally allow it to. I think I'm neutral regarding whether to move Peach, since it's much less immediately obvious which of her two names is most commonly used.
  3. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per last times.
  4. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
  5. Cadrega86 (talk) Per all three past proposals.
  6. Ahemtoday (talk) Forgive the copy-paste job, but: it's just "Daisy" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
  7. EvieMaybe (talk) per all
  8. Blinker (talk) Per all
  9. Tails777 (talk) Per all the points made on past proposals. I feel nothing more needs to be added.
  10. Rykitu (talk) Per proposal.
  11. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
  12. Pizza Master (talk) per all.
  13. PopitTart (talk) Hi, She's Daisy!
  14. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal. Many of the points made in support of this change have been made and extensively debated, and this proposal does an excellent job outlining them and addressing potential counterarguments.
    Above all, though, I remain steadfast that the concern about the impact of this shortening of names over search visibility is a complete non-issue. To reiterate what I said in the previous discussion, this site isn't a corporate product; it doesn't need to optimize every single little aspect of itself in the pursuit of visibility. That's not to say that visibility isn't important, but I reckon the wiki already enjoys an ample amount as is, and while only the site's owner ultimately can pull figures and projections, something tells me that calling Daisy, "Daisy" is not going to amount to much. On my machine, looking up "larry mario" or "larry koopa" still pulls up the mariowiki.com article of Larry as the top result, outranking even Fandom's aggressively promoted children--same holds true for other Koopalings--so I have to ask, if this isn't what motivates the opposing views, what exactly is the problem? Because so far it's only made these subjects easier to look up, less annoying to type out and link to, and ultimately more accurate to the creator's current vision, with visibility nigh intact. Furthermore, if Mario Wiki's purpose ever was to be perfectly optimized for search hits and clicks, I figure there would be more lucrative directions for the site to take than to be an game encyclopedia for niche things that only 0.1% of Mario fanatics realistically care about. Let unwavering accuracy be the "selling point" that elevates this wiki over all other fan resources for the Mario franchise.
  15. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
  16. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) per all

Mushroom Head (talk) Per all.

Super Mario RPG (talk) Since I'm supportive of "Princess" being removed from Peach's article title, the same would apply to Daisy, who has made fewer appearances, including with the "Princess" title.

Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Rosalina?

Based on the vote so far, this option may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on March 26, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the option if applicable.

Deadline: April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Yes Princess
No Princess (status quo)
  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. We hope we've made it apparent that we think adding the particle to Rosalina's article is very silly indeed, especially decades after the fact, when Rosalina has obtained a featured article without the particle, and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy.
  2. Hewer (talk) She's barely ever called that.
  3. LinkTheLefty (talk) Queen it up.
  4. Nintendo101 (talk) Unlike the other two, there is no substantial media that refers to Rosalina as "Princess Rosalina." It is presented only in larger descriptive material on Rosalina, and even then, only occassionally.
  5. Waluigi Time (talk) If anything, cases where Princess Rosalina is used are the clear outlier.
  6. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - She's clearly a queen, just sometimes lumped as one of "the princesses" for convenience. (note: the first part of this comment is meant to be taken as a joke)
  7. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal. It's unclear if Rosalina is even really a princess in the first place.
  8. Cadrega86 (talk) Per all.
  9. Ahemtoday (talk) Princess of what, by the way? Princess of space? Can you be the princess of space?
  10. EvieMaybe (talk) princess of acoustic rock, obviously.
  11. Blinker (talk) Per all
  12. Tails777 (talk) Per all.
  13. Rykitu (talk) Per all.
  14. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all. Her backstory implies she was one, and she carries the appearance of one, but it is certainly not one of her defining characteristics.
  15. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
  16. Pseudo (talk) She's straight-up never referred to this way except in supplementary material like websites, not even the Super Mario Galaxy manual calls her Princess Rosalina. This is pretty clear cut to me.
  17. Pizza Master (talk) In Chapter 7 of Rosalina's Story, there is a castle in the background that is implied to be Rosalina's house. Quote Rosalina, "I want to go back to my house by the hill!" The only visible "house" by the hill is the castle. So it's likely that she was born to royalty on her home planet. That said, Daisy has no princess particle, so Rosalina shouldn't either just going off precedence.
  18. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. Unlike Princess Peach or Princess Daisy, Rosalina is almost never referred to as a Princess.
  19. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
  20. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) per all
  21. SmokedChili (talk) Per all except the queen headcanon.

Mushroom Head (talk) Per all.

Super Mario RPG (talk) I don't think I ever recall it being used.

Comments (Princess Particle Party!)

Should be of note that Palutena's Guidance is not the only part in Ultimate in which Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" (obviously this also applies to Peach). ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 14:23, March 19, 2025 (EDT)

I can't track down the article (iirc, it was translated by SourceGaming), Masahiro Sakurai prefers dropping royal monikers in Smash Bros. games. If I recall correctly, it is to make the character more familial to the player and conserve textual space on the character selection screen. King Dedede is only called "Dedede" in the Japanese releases of the Super Smash Bros. games. That does not mean "King Dedede" is not a more complete rendering of his name. - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:44, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
King K. Rool is called that in Smash, so it's clearly case-by-case (and I thought the "saving space on the character select screen" argument was debunked last time by Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)). Anyway, why should a "complete" name automatically be more desirable than the name that is actually used in pretty much every appearance of the character? As was mentioned in the proposal, we've established in cases like the Koopalings that the longest name doesn't have to be the name we use. What makes Daisy different? (Honestly, "Princess Daisy" probably has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do.) Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:01, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
@Hewer I was referring to the Super Smash Bros. series and the people involved in the decisions for that series. None of them made Mario Kart Tour, a more contemporaneous game. Peach has been playable in spinoffs since the 1990s and Daisy has been since 2000, where trends like this would be established on hardware more limited, and by people who may have different views on how to render their characters' name on selection screens. In Melee, for example, a game with Peach, they call Captain Falcon "C. Falcon" on the selection screen. They probably could have rendered his name in full like they did for the Ice Climbers, but they didn't. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:15, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
I was replying to your vote on Daisy as well as your comment, sorry if that wasn't clear. Either way, I don't really understand the point you're making here. My point stands that Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer) is in the same game as just Daisy. Captain Falcon is in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate with just Daisy. Can you name any games that call her "Princess Daisy" on a select screen (or other similarly prominent context besides "random line of dialogue", for that matter)? I'm not aware of any. Surely if all the different people working on different games came to the same conclusion that it should be Daisy rather than Princess Daisy, that's more reason for us to move it? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:32, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
@Hewer In regards to "King K. Rool" - that's probably because every single language literally calls him that (at least in-game). In contrast, the reason Peach, Bowser and Dedede aren't Princess Peach, King Bowser and (JP-set) King Dedede is likely because they're literally Peach-hime, Daimaō Koopa and Dedede-daiō, respectively. Yes, these are simplified translations, but the nuance is different. The titles are probably getting mostly phased out because Nintendo likes it when the names of their major characters don't have to change much between regions. For example, one interview where Takaya Imamura regretted not unifying Star Fox's Andorf as "Andross" from the start. This was also done with the big Legendary Pokémon, as I recall, etc. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:10, March 19, 2025 (EDT)

How is Rosalina a queen, exactly? I don't think that's ever been stated anywhere, and Peach is still Princess even though she explicitly rules the Mushroom Kingdom, so Rosalina ruling something wouldn't make her Queen necessarily. Speaking of, even if she's not technically ruling anything now, she's still a princess by birth (backstory and Baby Rosalina's design), and I don't think titles become null and void like that / "oh it's been (blank) years I guess I'm not a princess anymore". Technetium (talk) 16:03, March 19, 2025 (EDT)

I recall some interview that said she was designed to be "queenly" or some such thing either for Galaxy or Smash Bros. Granted, that could also have been a mistranslation and I could be misremembering entirely. The comment I made in my vote was primarily tongue-in-cheek, not meant to be a serious reflection of what I think. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:39, March 23, 2025 (EDT)

@Pseudo: In what way is Princess Daisy "the main name that she is known by"? It certainly isn't officially, and in my experience it isn't even the more used name by fans either. And since Nintendo101 didn't really answer this question: why does a name being the "full name" mean it should automatically take priority? It didn't with Conker the Squirrel, Admiral Bobbery, Sonic the Hedgehog, Professor Elvin Gadd, Rambi the Rhino, Colored Pencils, The Missile Maestro, Baby Donkey Kong, Wendy O. Koopa, Sir Grodus, Glad Red Paratroopa, TEC-XX, and indeed, Princess Rosalina. So why is Princess Daisy different? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:57, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

I do agree with the argument, but I do want to just correct the mention of Glad Red Paratroopa. Super Princess Peach enemies don't actually ever show longer names than the abbreviated ones. the "full" names suggested by that proposal are technically conjectural.--PopitTart (talk) 05:30, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
Fair enough. That's one example down, eleven more to go. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:33, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
I guess what I mean is that "Princess Daisy" is sort of her brand name; it's the main name that marketing materials use for her and, in my subjective experience, is what she is known as in the public consciousness. For what it's worth, I heavily disagree with the Sonic character and Koopaling renames, and would vote against them if they were relitigated today (while I abstained from these proposals at the time, my feelings on this have become more clear to myself over time). Some of these renames do make sense to me, such as E. Gadd's, but it's a case-by-case thing I guess and I don't personally see Daisy as comparable to E. Gadd in this way. I just can't see either of these renames as at all helpful to the wiki's goals. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 09:01, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
In what way is "Princess Daisy" her "main name that marketing materials use"? Much like the games, marketing materials occasionally use it as an alternate name, not usually as her primary name. Here's a selection of official websites that list the Mario characters: this ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"), this ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"; it does use "Princess Daisy" after you click on her, but not on the main list, and said list uses "Princess Peach" so length can't be the issue), this ("Peach" and "Daisy"), and this ("Princess Peach" and "Daisy"). Notice how all of them use "Daisy" as her primary name rather than "Princess Daisy", with most of them even having "Daisy" used alongside "Princess Peach". As for the "what she is known as in the public consciousness" point, I think it's fair to say popular wikis such as this one have some influence on that (and there's also the case of Blue Shell if you want an example where the official name doesn't match the common fan name, though I'd argue that "Daisy" is also a commonly used name by fans in this case). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:50, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

For reference, here's how Play Nintendo (a division of Nintendo's American website) handles the names of Peach and Daisy.

  • On the "Friends" page, the former is "Princess Peach", while the latter is "Daisy".
  • A puzzle activity featuring both characters renders the former as "Princess Peach", while the latter as "Daisy".
  • Similarly, coloring activities that feature the former ([1], [2], [3]) render her name as "Princess Peach". Compare Daisy's own coloring activity, where she is rendered as simply "Daisy".
  • In this quiz, at question 2 you'll notice the "Daisy" answer; question 4 invokes "Princess Peach".
  • A poll uses the shortforms of both ("Peach" and "Daisy").

Now, for a change of pace:

  • Daisy is displayed as "Princess Daisy" on her own profile, which doubles as the hub of Daisy-related stuff on that site.
  • Another pop quiz uses "Princess Peach" and... "Princess Daisy".
  • This poll, likewise.

Note that the pages linked above are not tied to any particular product, but rather the Mario series in general. Most were nevertheless published during the Switch generation, and I strived to highlight as much cross-reference material as I could find from both Daisy's profile on the site, and the search results for "daisy" (which aren't all that different for "princess daisy"). It appears that activities which promote specific games overwhelmingly invoke characters using the same name they use in those games. In other words, "Peach" for Peach, and "Daisy" for Daisy, as expected. Some examples: [4][5][6][7][8]. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:17, March 20, 2025 (EDT), edited 17:00, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock "[...] and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy."
I don't think that's true. Daisy has been called the princess of Sarasaland as late as Super Mario Bros. Wonder. Rosalina, on the other hand, I cannot recall her ever being referred to as a princess of anything. Or royalty at all, for that matter. People presumed she was "Princess Rosalina" or "Princess Rosetta" in the early years before Mario Galaxy released purely because she has that "Princess Peach"-esque look, but canonically, she's been referred to as the protector of the cosmos, the keeper of the Comet Observatory, and the mother of the Lumas; none of which are titles of royalty. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 12:40, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

I agree, but the proposal is specifically about whether the characters' articles should be called "Princess Peach/Daisy/Rosalina", not whether they are canonically princesses. Let's stay on-topic. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:53, March 20, 2025 (EDT)


I shared this in private, but I was encouraged to relay this here. I principally feel a dogmatic adherence to consistency for the sake of consistency or policy for the sake of policy can lead to bad decisions. The actions proposed should stand on their own merits, and I feel like this proposal has not really made that case, or at least not to me. Regardless of how folks personally feel, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy are still regularly used in official capacities. In the headers of booklets, encyclopedias, and on the backs of merchandise. Even within in-game dialogue, especially for Peach. They are part of the general parlance and lexicon of people who play these games and are familiar with these characters. However, some folks in opposition seem to be acting like these names are inherently invalid or as archaic as the name "Princess Toadstool" or "King Koopa." If they aren't legitimately retired by the publisher and are interchangeable with "Peach" and "Daisy" in a way "Professor Elvin Gadd" or even "Princess Rosalina" never were for their characters, then why is it detrimental that they're the default names of their respective articles? What is the substantive harm? - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:52, March 21, 2025 (EDT)

That first bit about consistency also works as an argument for why Peach and Daisy don't necessarily need to be "consistent" with each other regarding whether they use the long names. Anyway, I believe that "Daisy" being the preferred official name over "Princess Daisy" is incredibly clear, and the fact that a name is sometimes used in certain cherry-picked instances doesn't override the most common and prominent usages. Everything you say about the current names being used in official sources and being familiar to fans applies just as well if not better to the names this proposal seeks to change to. You're right that the current names are used more than something like "Professor Elvin Gadd", but it's not like that has to be the cutoff point (and as I said earlier, you could certainly make an argument that Princess Daisy has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do, which you even supported shortening). Keeping it the way it is does not cause "substantive harm", exactly, but I don't remember anyone ever arguing that it does - the benefit of the move is to be more accurate to the overwhelming majority of official sources. And I do not understand your characterisation of this as "policy for the sake of policy", it's for the sake of accuracy to the source material, which the wiki is always striving for.
Here's a hypothetical to consider: if it happened that the wiki's article on Daisy had always used the name "Daisy" (and assuming everything else about the situation was unchanged), do you think you'd be pushing for a move to "Princess Daisy"? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 23:07, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
Potentially, yes. I would. Because I think Princess Daisy is more inherently clarifying as the article title and it is exercised in modern contexts that I think are more directly parallel to how one would title articles in referential material like ours. I think there are sometimes different goals and incentives for character selection screens and the like. For example, at the end of Super Mario Bros. 2 Peach is simply called "Princess," but if this site only covered SMB2, I would argue our article name for her should be "Princess Toadstool" despite it not being the name in-game.
My view in the previous proposal on this, as well as the one concerning the Koopalings, has evolved over time. I think "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" are better, more intuitive, and more clarifying article titles (especially for the former, though I do admittedly still prefer the parallel between Peach and Daisy. That's a bit less important though). In my experience, most people who engage with Nintendo games and Mario do not know these characters simply as "Peach" and "Daisy." So when you have these more clarifying names exercised in the modern era - in instruction booklets, encyclopedias, general official media, etc. - alongside the more familial "Peach" and "Daisy," what benefit does changing those names bring us? Because if anything it could create instances of navigating the site to find articles on these characters more difficult for some visitors by making their roles more opaque, at least peripherally. So I don't see any gain from this tradeoff, or an improvement of accuracy. I see it as trading a slightly more clarifying, valid, and exercised name for one that is equally valid but less clarifying. The only real benefit is that it can make piping links easier in the body texts of articles for editors, but I am personally more than willing to sacrifice editorial convenience to clarify things for readers when the option is there. I help maintain this site for them primarily, and it is for similar reasons why I did not simply title this article "The Legend of Zelda." - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:35, March 21, 2025 (EDT)
Admittedly, this response is based on personal life experience, but we've had basically the opposite happen to us; sure, people generally get it when you say "Princess Peach", but tend to raise eyebrows at "Princess Daisy" over just calling her Daisy. Calling Rosalina by "Princess Rosalina" is then promptly seen as an extreme over-correction if it's explained to them. Having quick-fire asked both friends and family about this, "Daisy" came up every time over "Princess Daisy", sans one instance of someone mistaking her for Rosalina and one giving an obvious joke answer, and in the former case, even then they omitted "Princess". Admittedly, there is probably a very large bias among family members at play as we have a dog expressly named Daisy, and our sample size here is incredibly small as this was very spur of the moment, late at night.
Even still, the total lack of any "Princess" particles at all here definitely reflects a very different lived experience, so while we definitely can't speak for everyone--it would be extremely silly of us to try to assert that your peers don't include "Princess" just because ours don't, that's absurd!--we can definitely vouch that, in our corner of the world, the "Princess" particle tends to be omitted. Make of this what one may, we just thought we'd share our own experiences here. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) Camwoodstock-sigicon2.png 00:28, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
"Princess Daisy" is the name used much less by fans in my experience too. If there actually are fans who primarily use "Princess Daisy" (ignoring for a moment the fact that I don't think that matters), I do think it's at least plausible that the wiki's usage of the name is part of the reason. Also, why is "clarification" such a big deal anyway? People who know about the Mario franchise would expect an article called "Daisy" to be about the major recurring character called that, I don't see any real potential for confusion. We shouldn't be sacrificing accuracy to appeal to some hypothetical minority who wouldn't understand what the page was about if we removed the word "Princess" from the title (and who for some reason can't just glance at the start of the article for two seconds to immediately find out). Also, this list you keep giving of "instruction booklets, encyclopedias, general official media, etc." - what exactly is this referring to? In your vote you listed Super Mario Land (so old that Peach was still Toadstool), the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia (seriously?), and "licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy" (which have never taken priority over the video games in any case I'm aware of, and which often use the shortened name anyway). I'm not a big fan of ignoring the naming policy's guidance to cherry-pick sources that use the name we'd rather have. The usage of shortened "Daisy" is not limited to character select screens as you keep implying - for instance, see the links I provided in an earlier comment, which show that most official websites use the names "Princess Peach" and "Daisy". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 07:11, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
I do not agree that "Daisy" is a more accurate article title than "Princess Daisy." I think they are equally as valid, same with "Princess Peach" and "Peach," but again, I admittedly feel more strongly for her than Daisy. As others have mentioned, she even had a game published last year that referred to her as "Princess Peach" in the title. It would be disingenuous to say "Daisy" is not used more often than "Princess Daisy," but the latter is used, whether it is in contexts you personally think should be considered valid or not. This was part of what I was saying with people treating these names as outdated and erroneous as "Princess Toadstool." These names are exercised in the modern era. So I do not think we are sacrificing accuracy by retaining the names we have. But we are sacrificing clarification, which is something I care about in maintaining reference material aimed for the public to read. This isn't a site just to be edited. - Nintendo101 (talk) 09:55, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
I still don't understand what clarification issues you think would be caused by moving to the subject's more common name. I don't know why "Daisy" would be any less clear as an article title than "Rosalina" or "Pauline" or any character name, but if there was anyone who didn't know what it meant, their confusion would be instantly quelled if they just looked at the article for a second or two. I can't imagine any context in which the supposed loss of clarity would be a problem. I'm still neutral regarding whether to move Peach since I think the argument against it is more reasonable than it is with Daisy, but I'll point out that it being used in a title isn't necessarily a deciding factor - Mario the character isn't titled "Super Mario" (which is used in the titles of some games that lack the form). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:31, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
For what it's worth, Nintendo101's messages here more or less match my opinion on this subject entirely. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 09:14, March 22, 2025 (EDT)

Merge the "did not reach consensus" and "tied" proposal outcomes on the archives

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on March 27, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

This came up in the comments at the tail end of my poll proposal archive proposal. A grand total of four proposals have "tied" and are therefore represented by brown. Notably, nobody decided this proposal would be brown even though, by any reasonable definition of "tie", it is one. I take this as a sign that this distinction isn't really... suiting the reality of the proposal page. After all, what makes a tie so different that it needs its own color, when it's just a particular arrangement that a failure of consensus can land on?

By the way, one color has to win out in the merge, and my view is: it will be brown. This is going to sound hugely pedantic, but I don't think white is good for a proposal archive color, at least not one with this meaning. Outside of the new dark mode, it looks like it doesn't have a background. That makes it look like some state inherently separate from the others, or like some kind of blank state with no meaning, or like it's related to what gray means. This isn't any of those; it's a pretty normal fate for a proposal to meet. Brown is more in line with the look of the others, and it looking close to "no quorum" better conveys its similar meaning. (Arguably you could merge in "no quorum", too. I'm not here to make that argument but if I was, we should obviously use orange.) Therefore, I say we're merging them to brown.

Proposer: Ahemtoday (talk)
Deadline: April 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) makes perfect sense
  4. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) Makes sense to us; as it stands, both "ties" and "failed to reach consensus" are in this weird spot where it's unclear which of the two you're meant to even use outside of, y'know, if the vote count literally ties, which isn't a particularly helpful distinction as far as the archive is concerned.
  6. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal.
  7. ThePowerPlayer (talk) What is even the difference between these two outcomes anyway?
  8. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
  9. Power Flotzo (talk) (Insert the "Corporate wants you to find the difference" image here.) Per all.

Mushroom Head (talk) A tie is so mathematically so damn improbable it is absurd it still is separate from no consensus.

Oppose

Comments

there's something to be said about the fact that the proposals are color-coded in the first place (which is VERY inaccessible to colorblind folks, people using screenreaders, and people who do not remember each color-outcome connection by heart), but that's for another proposal. — Super Leaf stamp from Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury.eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 10:09, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

Agreed, having some kind of symbology or just writing out the outcome in the proposal listing alongside the current color schemes would be a big improvement. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 10:12, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
There's a reason we've thus far yet to even think about touching proposal colors for darkmode; among other reasons, like "who has ever used wikitable wario?", we're kinda hoping a more sophisticated thing comes along for the colorblind on the off-chance we can actually incorporate that thing somehow. Symbols in particular sounds very nice. also the idea of having to darkmode white and gray is a Nightmare Scenario so here's hoping this can rectify that one! Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) Camwoodstock-sigicon2.png 10:54, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
Wasn't a feature recently added where you can scroll over the result and it states what it means? Or does this not work on screenreaders? Technetium (talk) 10:58, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
that feels like more of a bandaid fix. i think a better solution would rework how Template:Proposal archive looks to present the data in a cleaner way. — Super Leaf stamp from Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury.eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 12:49, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
maybe we could use some symbols like triangles or squares. MHA Super Mushroom:) at 08:10, March 21, 2025 (EDT)

Allow English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia names to be mentioned on articles where they are not the title

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on March 27, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

To be as clear as possible, this proposal will not affect any article titles. It is specifically about article content. With that out of the way...

So this classic proposal passed to ban any citations of the English version of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. Then this later proposal passed to allow the book to be cited, but only for subjects with no other official English names. I think this makes sense and doesn't need changing as far as article titles go, but the problem is that it creates an awkward inconsistency where only articles whose titles come from the book are allowed to acknowledge it. For example, Pipe Fist can use the encyclopedia as a citation for the name, but Winged Strollin' Stu can't even mention the existence of the "Soarin' Stu" name.

There are a few reasons why I think it would make sense for wiki articles to be allowed to mention weird names from the encyclopedia:

  • It's official information, so it makes sense to document it if we want to be informative and comprehensive. An all-or-nothing system where the names have to be either the title of the article or not mentioned at all feels unintuitive.
  • There seem to be some cases where this is already done. For example, the Yellow ledge article mentions Encyclopedia's "Ladyfinger Lift" name, with a citation and everything, despite it not being the title.
  • The information is also already covered on the wiki on the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia page itself, which has a nice list detailing all the stuff the book got wrong or took from the wiki. If we're covering it anyway, I don't see why we shouldn't also put this relevant information on the pages about each individual subject.
  • The wiki normally is allowed to mention official names even if it thinks they're wrong. For example, the Cleft page makes it clear that the "Moon Cleft" name from Super Paper Mario is a translation mistake, but it still mentions it anyway. And there are other cases similar to Encyclopedia where we do this kind of thing: the Polterpiranha page isn't called "Ghost", yet it still explains that "Ghost" is the name used for them in Smash games. The Nipper Dandelion page even explains the situation of how its name was a fan name before it was an official name.
  • Although the aforementioned proposal that allowed the Encyclopedia to be cited was intended to have it as a special case with the absolute lowest priority on the naming policy's list of sources, that has since been overridden by another proposal that introduced website filenames as an even lower-priority naming source, and the naming policy explicitly encourages mentioning those weird alternate names. So if we're allowed to mention names that are less trustworthy than Encyclopedia's, why shouldn't we mention Encyclopedia's names too?

If this proposal passes, articles will be allowed to mention alternate names from the Encyclopedia even if they are not being used as the title. For example, Comet Luma's article could start with something like:

Comet Luma, referred to as Lumacomète in the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia,[1] is a unique Luma found in ...

Or, if we want to make it more clear that we think the name is wrong, maybe even:

Comet Luma, erroneously referred to by its French name Lumacomète in the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia,[1] is a unique Luma found in ...

Or maybe we could exclude the name from the intro and mention it later in the article, perhaps in a "Naming" section, similar to what Nipper Dandelion and Yellow ledge are already doing. Perhaps that could even give us more room to explain where the name came from like the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia article does.

Naming

Comet Luma is one of the few characters in Super Mario Galaxy to not have a published official name for English releases of the game, nor in any official paratext for Super Mario Galaxy like the instruction booklet or Prima Games guidebook. In dialogue, Rosalina refers to it as "the Luma who knows about such things [about Prankster Comets]" and Polari does not mention its name in the English localization. The English translation of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia erroneously refers to it by its French name "Lumacomète",[1] which was used as the title of its article on the Super Mario Wiki fan website from 2012 to 2018 (being briefly changed in 2014 and 2015).

Or we could cut out that last bit mentioning the wiki by name. The point of this proposal is less to decide exactly how we integrate these into articles and more just to clarify that we are allowed to.

Again, to be incredibly clear, this proposal is not about changing any article titles. The current naming policy will not be changed at all by this proposal. This is merely about allowing articles to mention alternate names that aren't being used as the title. If this proposal fails, I suppose Yellow ledge and any other articles mentioning the Encyclopedia names will have them removed (though I'd imagine the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia page itself would still be able to keep its list of errors).

Proposer: Hewer (talk)
Deadline: April 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support (allow English Encyclopedia names to be mentioned on articles where they aren't the title)

  1. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, referred to as "Per all" in the Super Mario Wiki Encyclopedia, is a common vote reasoning found in proposals.
  2. RetroNintendo2008 (talk) This sounds very reasonable! I especially like the clarification regarding the names from the encyclopedia not being fully correct.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) this is exactly the kind of stuff i envisioned for the Naming sections! very good idea, per proposal
  4. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Nintendo101 (talk) Tentative support. I think this can be helpful for readers visiting the site, especially if integrated as LinkTheLefty suggested.
  6. Waluigi Time (talk) As long as it's kept to the naming sections, this should be fine. I'm surprised we don't allow it already.
  7. Rykitu (talk) Per all.
  8. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Waluigi Time/EvieMaybe--these being in the naming section would be a very obvious inclusion.
  9. Pseudo (talk) Seems like an excellent use of the recently revamped Naming sections! These names shouldn’t be neglected entirely.
  10. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.

Oppose (ban English Encyclopedia names from being mentioned on articles where they aren't the title)

Comments Encyclopedia

(Is the tier below Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia even presently used for any article title?) The {{encyclopedia}} template was modeled after {{conjecture}} and {{another language}}, and in the latter case, the information is normally relegated to the "Names in other languages" section. I think that the revamped "Naming" section would be a good place to put Encyclopedia names if this passes. There are too many instances, like with several Super Mario Galaxy instances, where the Encyclopedia name is outright confused with something else, and putting those details in the introductory paragraph could cause even more confusion. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:10, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

Yeah, that sounds fair enough. And I don't think any articles currently use titles from website filenames, it was just added to the naming policy as a failsafe in the off chance we ever get a subject not named by any other sources. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:41, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
We might want to temporarily trim that from the naming policy if it's not currently being used, or merge it with rest of the dev data tier (since it'd use that template anyway), since an unused tier is probably a sign that it's starting to get a bit much... But anyway, what about quotes from the book that aren't name-related? For example, the MIPS article uses Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. as a source for him being Peach's pet rabbit. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:52, March 22, 2025 (EDT)
I'd say those sound reasonable to allow as well if this passes. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:29, March 22, 2025 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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