MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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{| align="center" style="width: 85%; background-color: #f1f1de; border: 2px solid #996; padding: 5px; color:black"
|'''Proposals''' can be new features (such as an extension), removal of a previously added feature that has tired out, or new policies that must be approved via [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] before any action(s) are done.
*Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., "I like this idea!"
*"Vote" periods last for one week.
*All past proposals are [[/Archive|archived]].
|}
A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code <nowiki>{{user|</nowiki>''User name''<nowiki>}}</nowiki>. '''Signing with the signature code <nowiki>~~~(~)</nowiki> is not allowed''' due to technical issues.


<h2 style="color:black">How To</h2>
==Writing guidelines==
#Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
''None at the moment.''
#Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
 
##Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
==New features==
##Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
''None at the moment.''
##Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
 
#Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
==Removals==
#At any time a vote may be rejected if at least '''three''' active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
''None at the moment.''
#"<nowiki>#&nbsp;</nowiki>" should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
 
#Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "[[Wikipedia:Quorum|NO QUORUM]]." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
==Changes==
#All proposals are archived. The original proposer must '''''take action''''' accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
===A reconsidering of "derived names"===
#There are two topics that cannot be decided on through a proposal: the first is sysop promotions and demotions, which are decided by [[MarioWiki:Bureaucrats|Bureaucrats]]. Secondly, no proposals calling for the creation of Banjo, Conker or Sonic series articles are allowed (several proposals supporting them have failed in recent history).
This proposal acts as a counter to the proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/66#Repeal_the_.22derived_names.22_having_priority_over_official_names_in_other_languages|Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages]]. In short, to a casual reader like myself, subjects being named [[Disaster Neko]], [[Comet Tico]], [[Wonder Haiden]], and [[Kodeka Kakibō]] are extremely unhelpful when English names for them seem trivial. Many subjects in the Mario franchise use a very consistent naming scheme: [A descriptor for this specific subject, usually an adjective] [very standardized name]. If something is officially called Wonder Packun, and is a Packun(or Piranha Plant) which have variants consistently named "X Packun" in Japanese and "X Piranha Plant" in English, then it feels pedantic to not call it a Wonder Piranha Plant.


The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.
The proposed change here would be to allow derived names to take precedent over internal and foreign names when those derived names are built upon a strong enough foundation, on a case-by-case basis. Derivations should be based on actual official English localizations or already use English words to begin with. If there isn't precedent for each aspect of the name, then it should remain in its source language.
Examples:
* [[Fire Gabon]]: "Fire X" is a well established format, see [[Fire Bro]] (Faia Burosu) and [[Fire Piranha Plant]] (Faia Pakkun). "X Spike" is also well established, see [[Paper Spike]] (Pēpā Gabon) and [[Stone Spike]] (Rokku Gabon). Therefore, Faia Gabon would be interpreted as Fire Spike.  
* [[Comet Tico]]: "Comet" is already an English term used frequently in ''Super Mario Galaxy'', and [[Prankster Comet]]s are directly connected to the Comet Tico. "X Luma" is a very consistent formatting of names in SMG, see [[Hungry Luma]] (TicoFat internally) and [[Co-Star Luma]] (SupportTico intermally). TicoComet can therefore be interpreted as Comet Luma.
* [[Yarikuri Obake]]: "Yarikuri" is officially localized as [[Pirate Goom]], however it is never given any descriptors in English and "Obake" does not have a standardized localization, especially not one for ''Wario Land 3''. This name would remain in Japanese.
* [[Baboom|Hanabihei]] (assuming its official English name was never revealed): "Hanabihei" is derived from "Bombhei", but is a portmanteau and not a trivial descriptive name. It would remain as-is.


__TOC__
The positives of this proposal if it were to pass would be that related subjects would be intuitive as to how they relate. Just by reading the names, you would be able to tell that [[Hoppycat]], [[Wonder Hoppin|Wonder Hoppycat]], and [[Deka Hoppin|Big Hoppycat]] are related, and what that relationship is.


<center><span style="font-size:200%">CURRENTLY: '''{{LOCALTIME}}, {{LOCALDAY}} {{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALYEAR}} (EDT)'''</span></center>
Edit: Several users have expressed the sentiment that our current names are already somewhat derivative. Fire Gabon is not the name of the subject in Japanese, but rather ''Faia Gabon''. Similarly, [[Informant Mūcho]] is derived from the filename <code>B4_Informant_MUC</code>. Thusly, a new option is provided to propose to stop this form of derived names as well. Names like Comet Tico would be moved to "TicoComet", and Informant Mūcho moved to "Informant_MUC" or "Informant".


Edit 2: LinkTheLefty has very reasonably pointed out that the wiki has [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects_with_Japanese_names|existing, consistent guidelines]] on how to write Japanese names with English loanwords, meaning Fire Gabon should not be written as ''Faia Gabon''. I have altered the second option in accordance. If it passes, Japanese names will not have their spellings changed, but names derived from development data will still be made more direct. In hindsight, it probably wasn't a good idea, articles called [[Superball Mario (level)|Sūpābо̄rū Mario]] or [[Super Mario Kart: Doki Doki Race|Sūpā Mario Kāto Doki Doki Rēsu]] would probably be rather obtrusive.


==New Features==
'''Proposer''': {{User|PopitTart}}<br>
===User Page of the Month===
'''Deadline''': December 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT
There are many excellent user pages, like Stooben Rooben's, so i say they should be prized, so why not making an user page of the month award?


'''Proposer:'''{{User|Tucayo}}<br>
====Allow fully derived names (Fire Spike, Informant Snifit)====
'''Deadline:'''Thursday, November 27th, 5:00pm
#{{User|PopitTart}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} Per proposal. Since I started browsing this wiki as a kid, I had always thought the use of foreign language names were nonsensical when it was obvious what they should be - especially in cases like those cited in the proposal. "Neko" just means literally "Cat" in Japanese. It is likewise reasonable, as stated, to amend enemy names to their English counterpart in cases like "Fire Gabon", etc. In the previous vote to repeal this, {{User|Koopa con Carne}} stated that you shouldn't ignore an official name to make up a "wacky" name instead. I don't believe this to be a good faith argument in this case. Nobody is making anything up. If Gabon in English is Spike, then there is absolutely no conjecture with regards to applying that moniker to Fire Gabon - nor is there conjecture with regards to what replacing Disaster Neko with Disaster Cat in an instance where the normal version of these entities is just called "Kitten" in English, a direct translation from the respective Japanese name.
#{{User|Ninelevendo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Turboo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Meta Knight}} It just makes more sense.
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Per all.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Cheat-master30}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|winstein}} I think this is a good idea, so I agree with it.
#{{User|Roserade}} I have been keeping with this proposal and reading the arguments of the opposition, and while I understand where they're founded, I remain fairly unconvinced by them. I believe that this proposal is pointing towards reputable translation as the source of these names, with names like "Fire Spike" being based upon a) well-established patterns in translation and b) clear visual indication of what the thing ''is''. To argue that translating directly like this is "making stuff up" feels to me like a bad-faith argument. I feel like we can reasonably deduce what a translation should be if we have the valid evidencing for it - which PopitTart indicates as the aim in this proposal. And if a localization eventually rolls around, and it's a different name than what we're using? We change it, which is already what we'd do in the case of a Japanese article name anyway. Updating information is not hard, if it becomes necessary. Ultimately, our aim as a fan wiki should be accessibility of its userbase, and straightforward translation work is one of the ways to make these articles more accessible. Also, I'm sure it's more of an aside than a fully-fledged argument, but "regret the next encyclopedia event" is a silly argument. It's not our responsibility to ensure that nobody in a formal publishing house opts to plagiarize the wiki again.
#{{User|MCD}} Per all, especially Roserade & FWD.
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} The Disaster Neko and Fire Gabon examples are the ones that are ALWAYS on my mind when I think of this. Per Fun with Despair and Roserade especially.
#{{User|Reese Rivers}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Though I'm somewhat hesitant because I do perceive the opposition's stated disadvantages of doing this (particularly those mentioned by Nintendo101), I'm inclined to support this especially because of the argument raised by Lady Sophie and Exiled.Serenity's comments — that the wiki already ''does'' do this sort of name-deriving with examples like Comet Tico, Dark Nokonoko, and Fire Gabon, none of which ''exactly'' match the form seen in the game files. If we're comfortable adopting slightly derived names—and they are derived names—in order to make the wiki more readable, which I personally am, then I see little reason not to translate well-established names like Tico, Nokonoko, and Gabon, which have already been localized to English time after time. Perhaps the enemy's name will not turn out to be "Fire Spike" when it reappears with an officially-localized name, but we can simply acknowledge that as a wiki when the time comes. Frankly, acknowledging partially derived names like these three with a notice template arguably provides greater clarity than what the wiki is currently doing, claiming that the enemy's datamined name is Dark Nokonoko, rather than NokonokoDark, the only official "English" name that actually exists.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per proposal and Pseudo.
#{{User|Exiled.Serenity}} Per my comments below, and Pseudo. This is my preferred option— I think it is only "making stuff up" in the strictest possible sense. A far cry from calling him "Sizzle-Spikey!" or whatever. I also appreciate the proposal's restraint in this regard, choosing to only allow this when there's so much evidence for a given name that we'd just as easily be giving an inaccurate impression by not using it.
#{{User|Dainn}} Per all. Wonder Haiden bothered me deeply when I first saw it.
#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} This website is not Nintendo, will never be Nintendo, and needs to stop pretending otherwise. MarioWiki is fan site managed by fans and directed at fans. It's not an official source for anything and it's inherently not unbiased, the closest it could ever come to that is if it was simply a collection of copied and pasted official text released by Nintendo, but it's not, the vast majority of the content here is original text written by fans that is only based on the official content that is presented to us. Why is it bad to call Fire Spike by that name term when everyone can agree that's what they are but it's not bad to describe anything using words that were never used by Nintendo at all? I'm not advocating for fan anarchy, but MarioWiki is meant to be an English website and it doesn't serve that purpose to use foreign words and terms that the people accessing it are not expected to be familiar with when there are obvious agreed-upon English alternatives.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all. Especially Fun With Dispair and Meta Knight.


====Support====
====Stop derived development data names (Fire Gabon, Informant_MUC)====
#{{User|Tucayo}} Per me
#{{User|MCD}} Not my first choice but per my comment below. What we have now is essentially a mish-mash of different sources of derivation, this is better than that at least.
#{{User|Sparks}} Agreed.
#{{User|PopitTart}} Second choice, Per MCD. If we can't do fully derived names, then we shouldn't do arbitrary partial ones.
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice, I'll take this over the first option.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per... Hewer, I guess? Voting mostly to the detriment of the first option.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Honestly, I'm not even sure this is my second choice or not — I'm willing to go a long way in the name of consistency.
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary choice. I'd rather lean one way or the other than have a messy in between. At least with this, it makes more sense than allowing the word "Fire" to be translated from "Fire Gabon" and not "Gabon".
#{{User|Pseudo}} Secondary choice per Tails777, and per the sentiment expressed in my vote for the option 1. The current situation is a bad middle ground. This might become my primary vote in the future, but I need to think about it more.
#{{User|Exiled.Serenity}} My second choice. It's at least consistent.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - This I can agree with, the guessing of word order for file names always bugged me. Granted, it'd look odd in the prose, but there are ways around it (for instance, "'''Informant_MUC''' is the internal designation of a Snifit in ''Paper Mario: Color Splash''. The Snifit is found...")
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} As counterproductive/problematic as the proposal itself is, i suppose this could be an alternative (even if this option might get counterproductive in certain areas too)
#{{User|TPG}} After careful consideration and reading the comments of this proposal, I think this is the most acceptable option. Ultimately it is not the wiki's responsibility to localise names on Nintendo's behalf, and even though it IS common sense to call it 'Fire Spike', or 'Wonder Hoppycat', no official source has used that name yet. Perhaps down the line this more strict position on deriving names will lead to a more acceptable naming guideline that allows us to state the obvious, but it isn't on us to make up names. I don't think this is the best way to deal with conjecture, but I'll leave that thought in the comments.


====Oppose====
====Do nothing (Fire Gabon, Informant Mūcho)====
#{{User|Walkazo}} - User Pages are not the point of the Super Mario Wiki, ''[[Mario (series)|Mario]]'' is. Users may care about Community and whatnot, but random Guests looking for ''Mario'' information won't, it would just be in their way. Plus, it'd be making some Users seem "better" than others, which is something we've always striven against, and rightly so.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - This remains speculative. They could just as easily call it ''Flame'' Spike ([[Flame Chomp]] exists, after all, having been renamed from Fire Chomp) or ''Fireball'' Spike. Also, see the Goombud and Clubba examples below.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per the previous proposal that got rid of these names. It's still conjecture no matter how much we pretend it's not, and I'd rather stick to what's official. In response to the argument that Japanese names confuse or are unhelpful to readers, I'd argue that using fan names over official ones is misleading readers, which is much worse. We're here to report what the facts are, not what we want them to be. Also, variant relationships don't always have to be obvious from the name (you'd never guess from the name alone that [[Bandit]] is a [[Shy Guy]] variant, for example).
#{{user|Koopa con Carne}} '''No. Making up a name for a thing that has an official name [[MarioWiki:Citations#Why sourcing? What needs it?|is not what the wiki is about]],''' and if you think the official name is less intuitive than the alternative, there's this nifty feature called "redirects" that doesn't tamper with official concepts. If you think that argument is in bad faith, then you misunderstood the mission of this site.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think Popitart created a solid proposal, and I understand why it has garnered support. However, I believe the burden on having these names revised to something more suitable and consistent with the English localization is on the publisher. Not us. One of the things that has made Super Mario Wiki stronger reference material than many other wikis is our naming policy. I view it as a concentrated effort to avoid {{wp|Circular reporting|citogenesis}}, {{wp|Descriptivist theory of names|descriptivism}}, and manufactured consensus, which is especially important considering Nintendo themselves clearly consult this site on occasion and sometimes incorporate [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/land2/index.html our interpretations of the text], including [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|incorrect interpretations]]. It is clear we are the primary reference for in-depth ''Super Mario'' information on the internet and for the general public, and likely will remain so for years to come. I would like us to remain reliable and neutral for them. Does "Comet Tico" look silly next to "Hungry Luma?" Yes, it does. Does it not mean "Comet Luma?" Yes. But I do not think that is something for us to solve, and I suspect most readers will intuitively understand this means the subject has not been given an English name yet. I don't think that is a big deal. I think a bigger deal would be to, say, see it named "Comet Luma" on the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' article and assume that is its name. In my view, that is not really true, but presenting it as such can lead to misinformation being spread. I understand and respect those who feel differently, but that is generally how I feel at this time.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} How about we '''''<u>not</u>''''' do this again and regret it when the next encyclopedia event happens? We've never been one of those sites that gets a dopamine rush over "canonizing" stuff. On the contrary, we have a responsibility to step back and give the translators breathing room to do their thing when they get their chance without fears of stifling their freedom and being compared to the fans all the time. Per all the opposition, past and current.
#{{User|Axii}} ^
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Doc and Nintendo101.
#{{User|Sparks}} While it is tempting to just replace the Japanese name with its English equivalent, we don't know for sure if that is what the English translation actually is (or will be). While Fire Spike and Wonder Hoppycat seem to be obvious names for the enemies, what if they're not their official names? We have concrete evidence right now; it's just not English, but having an official name in Japanese is better than making up an English one.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all; no comment needed, since you may already know where i stand.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I see no reason to change this that doesn't involve appealing to the fact that this is an English wiki.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We're gonna be honest here, neither of the other options really appeal to us. We understand the concerns with citogenesis that caused the previous proposal to fail, so we won't really go over that. But the "we should use derived names ''exactly as they are written in the source''" is... Well, to put it bluntly here, more than a little asinine. Where exactly are we drawing the line, here? The provided examples in the proposal keep the camelcase in [[Comet Tico|TicoComet]] and that [[Informant Mūcho|B4_Informant_MUC]] would be moved to Informant_MUC; who's calling what's the "unnecessary" parts we omit here? Do we just include them all? If it's the latter, be honest with yourself; would the wiki be better off if we had an article called [[Peach doll|cg_data-character-p0242_peach_doll]]? If it's the former, how do we plan to trim down a sentence on the [[Watering hole]] article like "They consistently spew water into a small basin, allowing [[Mario]] to swallow some and turn into [[Pump Mario|STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI]]."? We have so, so many questions, and unfortunately, next to no answers here. Above all else, we don't really feel comfortable going forward with a proposal that, as others have pointed out, has felt rather wishy-washy for something as drastic as a change to our article naming guidelines.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Well, just because something can be translated as something else, doesn't mean it has been by Nintendo. Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Both options are terrible, per opposition, but I'm gotta say this about internal names. Currently, what we use for page titles for subjects where game file data is the best we have are formatted from said file data - in other words, we already conjecturally derive page titles for those subjects from internal names even if it's just adding a space. That's why I think if we're going to keep that line with internal names, they should lose their status as official names and be considered conjectural instead if they are formatted. This would not affect cases like [[Marimba Block]] where said name appears as-is afaik.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Open to review the guidelines on how to use internal names that aren’t a single word, but in my opinion we really need more discussion over them rather than just having to choose between two options, to see how many impractical consequences we can have with the various choices. As far as subjects for which we just have the Japanese names are concerned, I think that in the long term simplicity and avoidance of arbitrary criteria in the guidelines is more helpful for the editors - even though it can be frustrating to see some obvious translations untranslated. In the worst case scenario of no valid English name being found, we end up using valid Japanese names written with criteria as similar as possible to those of the official romanization, that can pop up [[Mario Playing Cards#NAP-05 (Characters Picture Book)|every now and then]].
#{{User|Arend}} Kinda torn between this option and the first one; I'm picking this one for now since it's the lesser-voted one. Either option are more preferable to me over the second option in which we have to use the actual internal filenames instead of names derived from said filenames, which I feel would stand out really awkwardly among the actual confirmed names.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I was originally writing a vote for the second option, though after thinking about it, I have decided to land here for now. Unlike some of the opposition, I would be open to changing how we handle names like this, and I do believe that, from a reader’s perspective, a name like “Fire Spike” makes more sense than “Fire Gabon”. However, I also agree with some of the opposition’s concerns such as citogenesis, the fact that some translations could come across as subjective, and the fact that it should not be up to us to localize names on Nintendo’s behalf, leading me to choose against the first option. However, I realized while considering option 2 that directly naming articles from their file names would also be messy and difficult to search if readers were not aware of what a particular file name was associated with to begin with. As such, I am voting to keep the current names, though I would recommend keeping this issue open for future discussion as I am still not sure that how we handle the situation is the perfect method.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all.
#{{User|Lastro}} Per all. This is the Super Mario Wiki, not Fantendo. We aren't supposed to make names up, even if it consists of "obviously" translating a single word. Besides, the current name derivation process only consists of rearranging words from an internal name without changing the language. Translation is tricky and we have no rights to name creations we didn't make.


====Comments====
====Comments====
I greatly appreciate the compliment, Tucayo! But, I believe that things like this are outlawed. {{User|Stooben Rooben}}
@Doc von Schmeltwick: the decision to go with Fire Spike over Flame Spike or others is based on both its behavior as well as how the "fire" prefix is translated from Japanese; Faia Gabon is a Spike that attacks with fireballs, as opposed to being made of fire or such. This is in-line with the given examples, as well as [[Fire Nipper Plant]] and [[Fire Mario]], which all have the same "faia X" naming in Japanese. Flame Chomp however is named "Keronpa" in Japanese, and thus isn't suitable as a point of comparison. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 02:44, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:I still voted against, just in case it's not. - {{User|Walkazo}}
:I have found better examples: ''Fire Heihō'' is known as [[Pyro Guy]] in English (not as "Fire Shy Guy") and ''Fire Mūcho'' is known as [[Scorchit]] (not as "Fire Snifit"). {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 07:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I don't see the point debating Fire Spike anyway when [[Fire Gabon#Internal names|the internal name]] specifically uses the word "Fire". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:02, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::But it does not specifically use the word "Spike". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:06, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::The specific point being addressed here is Doc's vote, which was questioning using "Fire". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:12, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::As Jdtendo demonstrated, the Japanese name being "Fire [enemy]" doesn't mean the English name will be "Fire [enemy]". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::There are indeed cases where "faia" is translated as something other than "fire", but these appear to be used for enemies which use fire in a way distinct from the classic fireball projectile. In combination with the Fire Gabon's behavior matching the subjects which ''are'' translated that way, I believe "fire" to be the best option. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::And that's just your subjective assessment. We have no idea if the official translators would agree, and for all we know, they could have completely different criteria to determine what gets called "Fire" and what doesn't. (For what it's worth, "Fire Spike"'s fireballs fly in a straight line through the air, so they are actually quite functionally different from those of Fire Mario or Fire Bro, which bounce along the ground, and Spike's other variants, Snow Spike and Stone Spike, do not follow any pre-established enemy variant naming patterns as far as I know.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I have not decided if I'd like to support this proposal yet but I feel like, as it is an English website, if the Mario Wiki shouldn't effectively create nicknames for subjects without official English names, it should not be arbitrarily applying names in other languages to those same subjects. The English name for the Fire variant of a Spike is not called Fire Gabon and I think it is erroneous to refer to it as such in English text. if citogenesis is an issue, then using foreign and internal names runs the exact same risk as using a conjectural name. Just look at [[Comet Tico|Lumacomète]] in the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 08:18, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Additionally, according to the Wiki's rules on Japanese, [[MarioWiki:Japanese|"words that originated in English should be written as the original English word for simplicity"]], which means technically we're already not accurately representing the subject's Japanese name. The Fire variant of a Spike is not called Fire Gabon in English, and it's not called Fire Gabon in Japanese. if the jump from Faia to Fire is allowed, then why not from Gabon to Spike? We're already isolating and translating Japanese words in a vaccuum.{{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 08:32, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I concur with this standpoint. I will keep supporting this proposal in its current state, but I would support changing all adjectives back to Japanese if it fails. It's really a case of all-or-nothing to me, currently it is quite half-baked. (It could be considered to add that as a separate option if more people feel this way.) {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 14:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Should I add this as a third option, then? It has only been 1 day, well within the editing timeframe. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I think the difference is that the word "fire" is a loanword or {{wp|Loanwords in Japanese|gairaigo}}, so it is not really being translated. "Gabon" is not. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:58, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:How is the wiki's usage of foreign names "arbitrary"? They are used when no official English name is known to exist. This wiki may be written in English, but it's about a primarily Japanese franchise and covers [[:Category:Japan-only games|subjects that never officially existed in English at all]], so it's no surprise that not everything has an English name to use. What ''would'' be arbitrary is deciding not to use the subject's only official name because we think we can make up a better one. Also, this proposal isn't suggesting to stop using foreign names entirely, so we would still be using non-English names in our English text regardless. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:48, December 5, 2024 (EST)
@Nintendo101 First, I want to acknowledge that you've put together a very articulate, well-considered case for your opposition. Though we disagree, I understand well your point of view, and I find your concerns over citogenesis in particular to be a very worthwhile consideration. There is one point in your position on which I would like to seek clarification, though. You say, "I think a bigger deal would be to, say, see it named "Comet Luma" on the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' article and assume that is its name." Would that not be adequately addressed by use of the conjectural name template, which includes an argument specifically for derived names? I am earnestly curious as to why the template, as a clear and difficult-to-miss disclaimer that the name is derived and not an official localization, does not adequately address this point in your view. [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 08:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Howdy! For starters, I do think a template header would be mitigating and I am glad it is incorporated into this proposal. That was good foresight. However, the systemic effectiveness of these templates is dependent on readers going to the articles for Fire Gabon or Comet Tico specifically, and I am not sure how often they would feel compelled to do that if these names "look" like official localizations. Someone visiting the site to read articles on the games themselves or levels may not feel compelled to check, and precisely because of their similarly to proper localizations, may just assume "Comet Luma" ''is'' its true localized name. Anecdotally, I feel like I have heard conjectural names justifiably adopted by our wiki for lack of better alternatives uncritically presented as ''the'' names off of the site and I think that is partially why. They look like properly localized English names, so why would one assume they are not? I have not seen that as often for subjects with Romanized Japanese titles, and I suspect that is because they also look the part. Maybe if there was some sort of in-text template similar to "conjectural" to embed directly into game or level articles that would help, but that also sounds a bit cumbersome. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::Thank you so much for your response! Knowing this is coming from a position of concerns that readers will pass over the disclaimer by not actually visiting the page in question and will instead assume these names are official at a glance certainly does clarify that point. I do think you have the right of it that it would be cumbersome to mitigate this concern with the tools available to us. My first thought is perhaps we could use the [[Template:Hover|tooltip text]] to address this by putting "derived name" in the tooltip text for these names on game pages and such, and if the proposal does pass, I think it would be worthwhile to consider using it. That said, as far as I know, you can't see that text on mobile, so I recognize this wouldn't be a perfect solution. [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 08:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Honestly, I'd rather not make a distinction between "conjectural" names and "derived" names at all. They're both names made up by the wiki in an attempt to be as straightforward as possible, the only difference being that "derived" names could be taking priority over official names, yet templates for "derived" names give the misleading impression that they are more official than "conjectural" names. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Or we can cut out the ten middlemen altogether and use much more efficient redirect system. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:11, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I feel like at a certain point, we can only do so much. We put templates on all the pages that are plain to see. If an Encyclopedia writer ignores it, how is that our fault? And like LadySophie17 said above, they used a French name for an English book - I don't see why using a name from another language, albeit official, eliminates the issue. It's their responsibility to appropriately localize names, not ours. And in this case, I think reader understandability comes first - after all, we are a site for the fans. Those writers shouldn't be looking at a wiki for research to begin with. If another Encyclopedia is written, I can only hope they learned from their mistakes with the original, and not use the wiki as a source. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:I am also aware I did that proposal to rename X-Ship to X-Naut ship, as the former felt too official of a name despite being marked as conjectural. This just feels like a different situation altogether for me, given that these conjectural English names for enemies aren't all fancy or anything, but very straight to the point. I agree with Hooded Pitohui's comment above that we could also mark these as being derived names on other pages they appear, not just the main articles on them. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I understand your perspective, but part of the reason why we have maintained so many name-specific article templates in the first place was as a response to that encyclopedia and there has been a general reduction in conjectural names that was also in response to it. Besides, it is not just third-party editors I am thinking of — I am thinking of fans. Our general userbase. I do not want us to passively misinform them or imply names have some sort of community consensus when they do not. I know that is something I would have appreciated before I became more involved with editing the site, because I want to be informed and learn before anything else. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:13, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::You make good points. I'm not fully sure what to think myself honestly - as I said in my first edit summary for this today, those were simply my thoughts at the moment. I'll continue thinking about this as more comments are made and change my vote if my mind changes. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:17, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Let's not pretend that ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'' was an isolated case. It was only notable for its sheer sloppiness and scale. In actuality, we've seen similar things happen time and time again. [[Tornado#Super Mario Bros. 3|Prima]]. [[Fire Nipper Plant|Piranha]] [[Polterpiranha|Plant]] [[Nipper Dandelion|guidance]]. [[Talk:Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest#NA release date|Dates]]. Don't get me started on ''Art & Artifacts'' and ''Zelda Encyclopedia''. This is a new constant of our interconnected reality, for better or worse, and it's something that both pros and fans have to thread carefully. Sure, no doubt coincidences happen. If that makes us feel better, we can chalk things up to coincidences. But sometimes, you can't help but smell something '''fishy''', and in the aftermath, you wonder how preventable it was if the leash was held just a little tighter...like [[Croaka Cola|Croaka-Cola]]. That mysterious leftover hyphen made me do a massive double-take because I have a ''distinct'' suspicion on its origin (no, I will not elaborate here, but if you know, you know). Considering Nintendo/Localsoft drama was [https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/nintendo-s-systemic-policy-of-miscredting-is-harming-external-translators reported] sometime after the ''Super Mario RPG'' remake, and other strangeness like [https://web.archive.org/web/20231121212525/https://www.nintendo.com/jp/software/feature/magazine_2023winter/index_en.html?page=6&device=pc this top-left retranslated text-bubble] and all the other [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fE__ciXqJ26-JQ3_ah6zON_BzROTceRyvKWoIGlfmpA/edit?gid=174644527#gid=174644527 in-game languages] looking an awful lot like varying degrees of a master Japanese/English merged script, I've had this bad feeling that the scope of the official translators' fantastic work was extremely fragile, and that tears me up. But I digress; even if I find out I'm correct, I don't think the wiki's to blame. But it does show that we have the power to take a higher road less traveled, and for that, I strongly believe that the current restrictive system must be the lesser evil. Sorry if that sounds dramatic, but my honest fear is that the alternative would not be good in the long run, well-intentioned or not. If more fan-content cross-contamination controversies arise, don't tell me I didn't warn you. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:45, December 5, 2024 (EST)
 
Oh, and also - what about dev data names like [[Informant Mūcho]]? Would those be affected by this proposal? I remember a discussion on this informant guy specifically on Discord leading into the discussion that lead to this proposal. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:03, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Yes, the proposal states that it would "allow derived names to take precedent over ''internal'' and foreign names when those derived names are built upon a strong enough foundation". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:25, December 5, 2024 (EST)
This should also affect [[Fire Robota]] and [[Beam Robota]], right? Their counterpart [[Spear-bot|Yari Robota]] is the only one with a confirmed English name (Spear-bot) thanks to the ''[[Wario Land 3]]'' manual. So in this case they would've been "Fire-bot" and "Beam-bot" respectively. [[User:Winstein|Winstein]] ([[User talk:Winstein|talk]]) 12:32, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:I'd say that's too much of a stretch, isn't the point to only use these names when every part of them can be "derived" from other official names? "Fire" variants would usually (not always) be "Fire Enemy", not "Fire-enemy", and I don't know of any precedent for the naming of "Beam" variants. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::As Hewer says, the elements making up those names and how they are localized into English do not have much data backing them up, as well as "Spear-bot" being somewhat of a portmantau rather than the standard "descriptor proper-name", and wouldn't make a clear consensus. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
 
@Roserade: The point isn't that the translation is bad, but that we shouldn't be the ones translating it, we should be providing the official names as they are. "Reasonably deducing what a translation should be" is not what the wiki is for (and "should" is also unavoidably subjective). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Also,<br>"Ultimately, our aim as a fan wiki should be accessibility of its userbase"<br>No, our ultimate aim is to provide information about the subject matter that is as close to truth as possible. Or in the absence of something that can be deemed "truth", a consensus from the ones who handle the franchise. I'm kinda over this whole idea that accessibility comes at the cost of veracity and accuracy. <s>Supper Mario Broth would be disappointed in us</s>. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:20, December 5, 2024 (EST), edited 13:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::Mostly towards KCC: I firmly hold that our ultimate aim should be accessibility. This is why we adjust literally anything on the wiki - table layouts, redirects, etc. If our purpose was just glossary, we'd be doing nothing but creating bulleted lists. Explicit or not, we are always aiming to create a space that best facilitates the accessing of information - and I feel that some of our delineations of what is a "valid" name or not stands in contrast to this aim. I'm noticing that you're using the language of ''is'' instead of ''should'', and I just want to say that I'm sorry my vision of this website varies in some ways from yours, but I think other interpretations of what this site is aiming to do are just as valid as this "purely objective" one, especially when changes are community-headed. I feel like I'm arguing into a theoretical circle that isn't leading me anywhere as I type, but I hope my feelings are clear. I don't think using the mountain of evidence to determine why "Fire Spike" is an acceptable name is doing anything to damage the reputability or informational identity of the wiki, and it would allow our information to be more accessible at a glance. [[User:Roserade|Roserade]] ([[User talk:Roserade|talk]]) 15:51, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::We are indeed aiming to create a space that best facilitates the accessing of information - official information, not fan names or information we think should be official. There's a big difference between changing the way we present information for accessibility and changing the information that we are presenting. The point of the wiki is only to present official information. I agree that Fire Spike would be a fine name for the character, but it's simply not official, so us wishing that it was does not constitute a "mountain of evidence". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:15, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::You are overlapping two extremely heterogenous aspects of the wiki: the presentation of information (including but not limited to, wording, layout, aesthetics), and the information itself. Yes, it's good to have information laid out in a pretty and accessible way, not so much when that bleeds into the information itself. So much for the accusation of bad faith when you're trying to liken the opposition's perspective to "we should only have bulleted lists!!!11"<br>Nintendo gives us a name for a subject, we use that. It's super clear-cut and avoids [[Talk:Kodeka Kakibō|Hefty Goombrat-isms]] as well as eluding the need of a hundred disclaimers pointing to how the name is conjectural. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:54, December 5, 2024 (EST) edited 16:56, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Not directed at Koopa con Carne or Roserade or Hewer but in general: Just stepping in here to please keep things civil, please don't construct strawmen out of the oppositions' points. Thanks. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:04, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::I saw that "Hefty Goombrat" was mentioned derisively in the previous proposal, and I'm curious as to why that is, beyond the compromises of any derived name? Kodeka Kakibō is extremely similar in both behavior and name to [[Hefty Goomba|Kodeka Kuribō]], so it appears simple from the outside. Is it because Hefty Goomba is the only point of official localization for "Kodeka"? --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::It's a flowery name. "Wacky", if you will. It reeks of Fantendo. If you ''really'' want to give this enemy a conjectural name at the expense of the official one, just use "Big Goombrat"; not only do even bigger variants of this enemy not exist, but [[MarioWiki:Naming#Conjectural names|policy]] states that "When deciding on a name, the [conjectural] name must be simple yet accurate." {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:05, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::I'm not sure I agree with it being "flowery". It behaves just like and is particularly named just like the Kodeka Kuribō, so it follows that it would use the same naming scheme. Most enemies which are called "big" in English use simply "deka" in Japanese. I can understand being hesitant about using just the Hefty Goomba as reference, given this proposal hinges on the Mario franchise's tendency for consistent naming schemes. If this proposal passes, Kodeka Kakibō would probably warrant some discussion on its own. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::That just shows how subjective the entire basis of this proposal is. You think naming it as such is logical, but that is plain and simply an opinion, and not one that will necessarily be shared. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:31, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The point I brought up [[Talk:Mame-san#Name source|here]] was that Kodeka Kakibō is analogous to Big Goomba in ''Super Mario Maker 2'', Hefty Goomba in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' (per the new name), and indeterminate in ''Super Mario Run''. There is no one-size-fits-all solution in such a loony scenario. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:37, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::::That's starting off the assumption that the enemy in ''Super Mario Maker 2'' is a "Kodeka Kakibō" to begin with, which, considering the equivalent Goomba enemy is officially referred to in Japanese as "Deka Kuribō", doesn't seem like a very reasonable assumption. Sure, they have the same role, but so do Maker's Big Goomba and New's Hefty Goomba. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:35, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Exactly. The current merged article is trying to make the best out of a suboptimal situation. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::I think that it's still very key that the enemy is particularly named Kodeka Kakibō in Wonder, literally translating as "mini big Goombrat". Wonder continues to use the name Kodeka Kuribō for the ''Double-Sized-Goomba-That-Splits-Into-Regular-Goombas'' like the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games before it, likely because of the presence of of actual Deka Kuribō that split into them. There is no such Deka Kakibō however, meaning they could have very well called the ''Double-Sized-Goombrat-That-Splits-Into-Regular-Goombrats'' a Deka Kakibō instead. Nintendo had it in mind that these two enemies were directly comparable, going so far as to give the Goombrat a name with a level of specificity (kodeka rather than just deka) it didn't need. As for how this plays into ''Super Mario Maker'', I think it's fine to call the ''Double-Sized-Goombrat'' there a Kodeka Kuribō with a lack of evidence otherwise. It's not [[Sledge Bro|unheard of]] for enemies in ''Super Mario Maker'' to not just become "Big" when given a mushroom. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 05:23, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Again, the problem with this is that it's all just your subjective interpretation. The fact there's even an argument to be had here about how to translate the name goes to show that it is not one of the "obvious" translations this proposal is going for. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:54, December 7, 2024 (EST)
 
Not gonna try to throw shade but while I agree with the proposal on derived names it does look odd that a large contigent of users that don't otherwise directly participate in the wiki voted, and voted in a quite short time span. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:48, December 5, 2024 (EST)
: People talk, especially in the wiki forum and the communities surrounding it, and sometimes a proposal can attract attention from veteran editors (especially when it is as interesting as this). Rare as it is, I think it's good that users with a long history of wiki contribution can still lend their opinion, even if they aren't currently active. {{User:The Pyro Guy/sig}} 16:19, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::Wasn't there a hard rule against proposal soliciting? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Discussing a proposal before posting it doesn't necessarily involve solicitation, as long as no one is asked to vote. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 16:31, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::There is a key difference between soliciting votes and simply bringing up a proposal to discuss it (the latter is what happened, of course). Everyone here is voting independently based on the subject matter, even if opinions align in this case. {{User:The Pyro Guy/sig}} 16:35, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::What does make this different than [[Talk:Kamek#Split_Wizakoopa_.28i.e..2C_the_Super_Mario_RPG_boss_character.29|outright meatpuppeting]] is that community members who voted here still at least had prior history editing even if they are active no longer, as opposed to in this case where oppose voters showed up only to vote in a single proposal and never contributed anywhere else. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Also I do disagree that merely discussing a proposal isn't a form of solicitation, even if there is no directly asking a user to vote. There will always be biases in play depending on who approaches you and why you approach particular people: I'm more inclined to vote in support of my sister's proposal because of such inherent biases at play, and more in favor of supporting other people's proposals because I'm more aligned with their judgement or I have personally more trust in them than others, even if the same points are made, we all do. However, I do think a rule against vote solicitation is unenforceable because at what parameters do people suddenly break the rule? There's always going to be some bias towards one side regardless if there was direct solicitation involved or if it's implicated (and the latter is much tougher to analyze but honestly it's not worth dissecting intentions, we're supposed to assume good faith in all users). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::I do hear that, but bringing up a proposal in a public space (such as the Discord server) surely would not be a form of solicitation in any case, and is a pretty straightforward and honest way of handling something like this. Just trying to look out for a newer user such as PopitTart in this case particularly since this is their first proposal, and I wouldn't want to accuse them of impropriety without some kind of evidence. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 16:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::Oh no, I understand your side. I'm just commenting that you can't completely avoid solicitation because of a lot of inherent biases that'll always be in play. Even writing a proposal practically is a sophisticated solicitation to get people to support you. In this case, I'd honestly have a proposal get votes from solicitation than proposals that end dead with a no quorum or extended dates. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:57, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::This makes sense to me — I really mean that it's not an improper or untoward form of solicitation that the wiki ought to discourage in my opinion; I do definitely see what you mean about basic proposal-writing being some form of solicitation, lol. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 17:01, December 5, 2024 (EST)
 
:I discussed the subject at length on the Discord server prior to starting the proposal, as I'd never done one before and wanted to make sure I accounted for all the nuances of the topic and got all the bureaucratic details right. Several of the votes are from users who were in that discussion and presumably wanted to get their opinion in officially as soon as they could. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 16:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
 
:{{@|Mario}} Whether or not the votes have been solicited, I don't know. I'd not want that to be the case. But I think users should be allowed to voice their opinions on a wiki-relevant matter regardless of how much "credit" they have to their name as a user of the wiki, and regardless of whether they are a user at all or not. Otherwise the site just becomes a clique of stuffy nerds who monopolize the work done here and pretend it's justifiable just because they're more involved. This isn't a shade to the opposition (especially since I'm part of it), it just seems like a natural course of things in the given scenario. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:51, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::Problem I have is less the idea of what is and isn't solicitation and more that something organized in such a way will of course have more users who have already made up their mind compared to the active users who generally pay conscientious attention to proposal discussions. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:05, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::I still don't see an ethical problem in this. Indeed, there are a few users whose entire activity in the past years has been to vote for the prevailing sentiment in a discussion, refuse to elaborate, promptly leave. I understand your concern, as you're dedicated to the project and your intentions have been nothing but good--full disclosure, hopefully I don't offend by being honest, but I don't personally like the practice so described either--however, everyone here has a given freedom to vote. If they're not carrying out a concerted effort to sway a consensus, I'm not one to stop them, and I wouldn't be above them were I more conscientious. Most importantly, they're still part of the community even if they're not as active in the space designated the "wiki". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:25, December 5, 2024 (EST), edited 19:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::No offense taken whatsoever, though I do think it's curious that right after you say you don't see a problem, you then voted "mostly to the detriment of the first option." And, fine, if that's what it comes down to, but I think that adds fuel to my distrust of setting proposals up in Discord servers or however this happened. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:40, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::When I said I dislike the practice "so described", I wasn't referring to your behavior, so I apologize if it came off that way. Also, I'm not part of the Discord server. If the other option was added following a discussion over there, I don't know. I don't think I'm being disingenuous with my statements if I then choose to vote mostly against another option--as I said, everyone's got certain freedoms in these activities. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:56, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::The decision to add the third option was based on comments here, (see Lady Sophie's above and Exiled.Serenity's below) and discussed briefly on the Discord server to, again, make sure I'm doing all the formatting and such correctly for my first time.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 21:15, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::To explain the ire against inactive users coming out of the woodwork to vote on something and do nothing else, the fact that they do nothing else means they won't have to deal with the consequences of a disastrous idea they're supporting. And in many cases, the wiki was a different place when they ''were'' active. My mind keeps going to [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Brown_Yoshi&diff=1666939&oldid=1659564 this edit], which was performed in 2014 by a user who hadn't been active since 2006, and was so out-of-tune with how the wiki was by then that it is preserved in the BJaODN now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:48, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I disagree that votes cast with relative detachment from the Mario Wiki project are inherently discourteous or damaging. Sure, concerning the proposal itself, it technically erodes the site's stated promise of accuracy, and I'm firmly against it... but a descriptor like "disastrous" kind of overstates the scale of a problem whose greatest possible impact on society is influencing a couple of names in a media franchise (as with Super Mario Encyclopedia). People voting for that to happen is a big nothing burger in the grand scheme of things, however much we scrape the paint off our keyboards arguing, and if you disagree with the consensus, you're not forced to make the proposed changes yourself. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:31, December 6, 2024 (EST), edited 16:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::"Disastrous" was not referring to this proposal specifically, more the issue in general. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:37, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::Hey, when you happen to be on many peoples' lists of best-maintained wikis, there naturally comes a certain pressure not to upend the teatable, as it were. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
 
Still undecided on this, but to build on Lady Sophie's point above, it feels like we're drawing kind of an arbitrary line here. For example: The internal name we have for what the wiki calls "Comet Tico" is "TicoComet.arc", so we're already making the assumption that this is a Comet Tico and not a Tico Comet, that these are actually intended as two words at all, that the file extension is not intended as part of the name, and that the name of the file even describes what's in the file. Which is all reasonable, of course, since the surrounding context of other entities' official names heavily implies that all that is supposed to be the case. However, if we're worried about maintaining strict adherence to the text, I'd argue none of that is valid. The only appropriate page name would be "TicoComet.arc", which I don't like personally, but at least it'd be consistent. Or, of course, we could take the final step of also assuming that the word "Tiko" is just the Japanese term for Luma, and treating it as such. {{User:Exiled.Serenity/sig|Sarah}} 17:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:I'm pretty sure "Comet Tico" was also the name from the Japanese version of the SMB Encyclopedia. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::The [[Comet Tico]] page uses the dev data template, so that's probably not true. This has also been done with several other articles that have titles derived from internal data - [[Dark Nokonoko]] and [[Disaster Neko]], to name a couple. Adding to this, we also have [[Peddler Kinopio]], which is only labeled "PeddlerKNP" in the files. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:49, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::I mean, there is [[Bone Run Run Packun]] named as such, despite the existence of a proper Japanese name, ''Ran Ran Hone Pakkun''. I would've tried to get it moved when I noticed, but I think it would be best to wait for this proposal to end so we don't have to potentially move it twice.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:58, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::Looks like someone beat me to it, but here's my response anyway: "Looking at the [[Comet Tico]] page, it has the disclaimer that the name comes from development data. Not sure if that's accurate or not, but the only other name cited (コメットチコ) is from the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]], and is in untransliterated Japanese. Either way, I don't think it changes my point much." {{User:Exiled.Serenity/sig|Sarah}} 17:57, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Would those other pages be affected by this proposal? I don't know of other "Disaster" variants to use as precedent for Disaster Neko, and both it and Dark Nokonoko have another Japanese name listed on their articles that doesn't seem to be from internal data, so how do we know which one an official translation would use? (I feel like these kinds of disagreements that require subjective decisions are another point against this proposal.) As for Peddler KNP, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Move Super Princess Peach enemies to their full names|I'd be fine using that name]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:03, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::I agree we should not be manipulating in-game file name data just to procure something that makes more linguistic sense to us, but I view names like "Comet Tico" or most of the unlocalized subjects from ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' to just be Romanizations of their Japanese names, which is something I support. I know from firsthand experience in other fields that this is not an uncommon practice for English texts directed at Japanese audiences, and I do not agree it hurts accessibility or readability. It is just a sincere reflection of what we have, and I would rather not give the impression otherwise. Good reference material make efforts to mitigate the spread of misinformation. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:09, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::This is basically the equivalent of transliterating loanwords in foreign names, which is a minimum for language legibility. The way files are typically written is for the base version to be the first word, and then variant characteristics appended afterwards. That's just a consequence of organization, keeping alike things alphabetically arranged for ease of reference. Not all the time, but usually, and CamelCase also denotes where there would normally be a space. Cross-referencing also indicates how the names were likely intended to be read. Maybe the template wording can be revised a little bit. (Comet Tico is, by the way, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially unban citing the English version of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia as official names for subjects|a proposal suggestion]] to override Lumacomète.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Why are foreign names being compared so much to internal names anyway? I've yet to encounter a foreign name that doesn't make sense syntactically, even in English (in "Fire Gabon are enemies in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''", you immediately understand the subject to be a fiery variant of a thing called "Gabon"; "Kodeka Kakibo" can be read by someone who doesn't know Japanese as simply the subject's name). There is more often than not some ''creative intent'' behind them, and using them in no way hurts accessibility as feared. In stark contrast, internal names are supposed to be utilitarian and may not translate well into prose ("Nokonoko Darks are enemies in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' has the flow of a ball of wet wipes in a drain). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
 
I will say this: if it's considered too speculative to say that [[Swipin' Stu|Mario logically shouldn't get a sunstroke in the basement]], then outright making something up for quote-unquote "accessibility" at the expense of accuracy, the latter of which is our express goal, is ''definitely'' too speculative. You might think "Fire Spike" is an educated guess or something to that effect, but really, it's ''just'' a guess. It is not our prerogative to make up names or localize the games, which is why we only do the former when we have literally no viable alternative. This system we have is not arbitrary, this is the only way to do it while keeping accuracy as the main focus. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
 
I want to offer this insight, shared by CM30 in the Discord server (with permission to repost), that I believe articulates part of my argument better than I was able to: <br>"My opinion on this matter is that user readability should come first on an English speaking wiki. A reader shouldn't need an image or description to understand what a page is referring to, and that's a huge problem with relying too heavily on untranslated or foreign names. <br> And while you could argue that names should be official where possible, if they're literally just descriptions I see no harm in using a translation"<br> This is mostly what I mean about accessibility. Getting a first click of engagement is the most important step to getting someone what they're looking for on the wiki, and article titles that don't give clear communication of what a player has seen hinders this process and can cause confusion instead. Again, it's not true for every article that can be interpreted - only ones that have sufficient indication of what their derived name should be. [[User:Roserade|Roserade]] ([[User talk:Roserade|talk]]) 18:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Beyond my usual disagreements that being an English wiki means that English material is to be treated as The One and Only Source of Truth...<br>"A reader shouldn't need an image or description to understand what a page is referring to"<br>This makes zero sense. I'm sorry. I mean no offense to CM30, but if an encyclopedia wouldn't employ descriptions and demonstrative attachments, it wouldn't be an encyclopedia at all. It would be something closer to a... [[Special:Diff/4452460|glossary]].<br>A reader who's never had so much contact with the Mario franchise wouldn't immediately think of a brown anthropomorphic mushroom upon seeing the word "Goomba". That's where the wiki aids them with descriptions and images. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:41, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:It's still presenting conjecture over official names. Which is not how we operate, nor should it be. Just because something's "easier to understand" doesn't make it better. Opening Fire Gabon's page with "'''Fire Spikes''' are enemies from ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''" rubs me too much the wrong way because it's deliberately demoting the only official name we have for it in favor of something that is entirely based on guesswork. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::But the "only official name" is itself not official. The Japanese name is "Faia Gabon" so the "Fire" part is derived, the internal name is "EnemyFireGabon" so if that counts as official (which I personally disagree with, seeing as it's internal data the developer never would have intended to be seen publicly, if we had no official confirmed name for an enemy in a game and it was internally labelled as "Enemy1.pack.zs" would we call the page "Enemy 1"?) then "Fire Gabon" is still a derived name from that. If you think we should be prescriptivist about this, fine, but don't pick and choose what you apply these rules to and what you don't. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 19:10, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::"Faia" is the English word "fire" written for a syllabic language. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:28, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::It's literally just the word "fire" uttered using Japanese characters. It's a matter of linguistic stricture. Deriving the word "fire" from the word "fire" is neither conjecture or prescriptivist LMAO. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:37, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::<small><small>Why is this starting to sound like that "tsk, it's not ''Mamu'', it's ''Mam<u>ū</u>''" [[Talk:Wart#Calling him "Mamu" in YK:DDP|joke]] I made a while ago?</small></small> Okay, several things. Firstly, everything in a game, including the parts that make it tick, is official. By definition. This is no personal agreement or disagreement to be made here. The word you ''seem'' to be looking for is "canon", [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|which is not an argument this wiki is interested in.]] If a development name is too utilitarian to use, simple: ''we don't use it'' (for example, Kongā being one of the numbered "waru" DK-bots). In the case that there is no foreign name, we'd probably use a conjectural name than that hypothetical example. The remaining Fire/Faia argument displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how language and databasing work (as already gone over), and the proposer mixed in both under one new option, seemingly redefining [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects with Japanese names|our longstanding common-sense rules]] under the "derived" umbrella (frankly, slipping in perceived Japanese word quibbles is an overreach of this name proposal). And utilizing different sources effectively makes encyclopedias encyclopedic. Becoming the ''Sūpā Mario Burazāzu'' Wiki will, in my opinion, put a damper on our reliability. There is nothing broken to fix here. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:28, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::I didn't catch that the second option apparently violates the wiki's guidelines, I'm not a frequent editor and I simply went off what discussion in here suggested. I would be okay with the option being reworded to allow loan words to remain as their English spelling if necessary.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 22:18, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::It’s worth noting that [[MarioWiki:Naming#Japanese]] specifically mentions that names such as “Yoshi” and “Koopa” should use their official English names in article titles that don’t have an official English name. Granted, it doesn’t specify every context that this should be used in or which other names this would apply to, however I feel that it would be logical to extend this existing rule to enemy names that already have an offical English translation, like Spike or Luma. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 01:08, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::The difference is between transcription of names and translation of names. It's saying to write Kuppa as Koopa, not to replace it with Bowser. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:55, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Not entirely sure if transcription is the right term to use here or if transliteration would be more accurate, however your point is valid that this seems to be a slightly different topic from the one at hand, so I’ll admit that my previous comment might not be relevant to this discussion. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}}
:::::::Yes, that's the use case. Personally, when I see Japanese names being swapped out for English ones, I'm not going to be thinking, "ah, finally, ''Bauzā no Hikōsen da yo''," I'll be thinking, "oh, is this one of those times [[Super Mario Bros. 2#Notable mistakes and errors|the]] [[History of Bowser#Super Mario Sunshine|Western]] [[Foreman Spike#The Super Mario Bros. Movie|name]] made it to Japanese media?" Anyway, let me get the second option straight. If it passes, I'm taking it that the changes will look something like this?
*[[Assembly Block|AssemblyBlock]] (clipping of the various <tt>AssemblyBlockParts</tt> files to match internal Japanese name)
*[[Attack Ghost|AttackGhostA]]
*[[Banana Heli Bird|BananaHeliBird]]
*[[Banana Squid|BananaSquid]]
*[[Barbell|barbell_anim / DebrisDumbbell]]
*<s>[[Barrel Bomb|BarrelBomb]]</s>
*[[Bazooka Heyho|HeyhoBazooka]]
*[[BGM Tride]]?
*[[Big Bee|BigBee]] (''Donkey Kong Jungle Beat'')
*[[Big Run Run Packun|EnemyBigPackunRun or EnemyBigRunRunPackun]]
*[[Bird Nest|BirdNest / BirdNestFire or BirdFireNest / BatNest]]
*[[Black Fairy|fairyblack / BlackFairyAttack]]
*[[Blood Pine|BloodPine]]
*[[Bob-omb Fish|bobombfish_anim]]
*[[Bone Run Run Packun|EnemyPackunBoneRun or EnemyBoneRunRunPackun]]
*[[Boss Pig Poppo|PigPoppoBoss]]
*[[Bunmawashi Doll|BunmawashiDoll]]
*[[Candy Block]]? (+ other remaining [[Super Mario Bros. Wonder|''Wonder'']] [[User talk:Time Turner/unfinished#Super Mario Bros. Wonder|stuff]] still redlinked)
*[[Ceiling Needle|CeilingNeedle]]
*[[Chandelier|Czako_chandelier]]
*[[Check Point (Yoshi's Crafted World)|CheckPointA]]
*[[Co Gasagoso|ksm_co_gasagoso]]
*[[Coco Pig|CocoPig]]
*[[Comet Tico|TicoComet]]
*[[Cuttacutta|cuttacutta_anim]]
*[[Dan Spider|DanSpider]]
*[[Dark Nokonoko|EnemyNokonokoDark]]
*[[Disaster Neko|NekoDisaster / NekoParentDisaster]]
*[[Domino block|Czako_domino_block]]
*[[Donguri Heyho|HeyhoDonguri]]
*[[Electricity Block|ObjectBlockElectricity]]
*[[Eye Beamer|EyeBeamer]]
*[[Fairy Board|FairyBoard]]
*[[Fairy Trampoline|FairyTrampoline]]
*[[Fire Bakky|FireBakky]]
*[[Fire Mini-Iga|FireMiniIga]]
*[[Fire Pig Poppo|PigPoppoFire]]
*[[Fire Shy Guy|ShyGuyFire]]
*[[Fling Pole|FlingPole]]
*[[Fly Bomb|Cmn_fly_bomb]]
*[[Fly Child|Cmn_fly_child]]
*[[Fly Heyho|HeyhoFly]]
*[[Fly Parent|Cmn_fly_parent]]
*[[Glass bird|Czako_glass_bi]]
*[[Gold Mini Slump Bird|SlumpBirdMiniGold]]
*[[Gold Treasure Box|TreasureBoxGold]]
*[[Hip Drop Move Lift|CloudWorldHomeHipDropMoveLiftParts000]]
*[[Ice Bakky|IceBakky]]
*[[Ice Meteor|IceMeteor]]
*[[Ice Mini-Iga|IceMiniIga]]
*[[Ice Snake Block|block_snake_ice]]
*[[Informant Mūcho|B4_Informant_MUC]]
*[[Jelly Fish|JellyFish]] (''Donkey Kong Jungle Beat'')
*[[Juggling Heyho|Heyho_Juggling]] (clipping of various <tt>Heyho_Juggling</tt> assets)
*[[Kaeru Block|kaerublock]]
*[[Kanaami Road|roadkanaami]]
*[[Kiba Pig Poppo|PigPoppoKiba]]
*[[Kurako|f_kurako / f_kurata]]
*[[Luigi Block|R_block_luigi]]
*[[Luigi Key|luigi_key]]
*[[Mini Elephant Cannon|ElephantCannonMini]]
*[[Mini Panda|MiniPanda]]
*[[Mini Pig Poppo|MiniPigPoppo]]
*[[Mini Slump Bird|SlumpBirdMini]]
*[[Mini-Iga|MiniIga]]
*[[Moai|f_bg_moai_ba]]
*[[Neko Parent|NekoParent]]
*[[Pea Frog|PeaFrog]]
*[[Pea Jelly Fish|PeaJellyFish]]
*[[Peach doll|cg_data-character-p0242_peach_doll]]
*[[Peddler Kinopio|O4_KicthenEvt01_PeddlerKNP_01]]
*[[Pelmanism Leaf|Mobj_PelmanismLeaf]]
*[[Penguin Racers|PenguinRacers]]
*[[Pinball digital counter|s_PinBall_Digital_Counter0]]
*[[Pinball tulip|s_PinBall_Tulip_OPEN]]
*[[Pinecone|PineconesA]]
*[[Pipeman|f_pipeman_ma]]
*[[Prof. Kinopio|KNP_Prof]]
*[[Pump Mario|STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI]]
*[[Raft|raft_anim]]
*[[remix course]]?
*[[Robo Kikki|RoboKikki]]
*[[Robomb|Robomb_Gold]]
*[[Rolling Frog|RollingFrog]]
*[[Rush Heyho|HeyhoRush]]
*[[Sea Turtle|SeaTurtle]]
*[[Senobi Generate Point|SenobiGeneratePoint]]
*[[Skall Heyho|HeyhoSkall]]
*[[Sky Move Lift|lift_move_sky]]
*[[Slave Basa|slave_basa]]
*[[Sleep Pig Poppo|PigPoppoSleep]]
*[[Slide Box|SLIDE_BOX]]
*[[Snow Mole|SnowMole]]
*[[Snow Ucky Kong|SnowUckyKong]]
*[[Space Junk Galaxy]] planets
*[[Spiked Barrel|BarrelSpiked]]
*[[Spring Flower|SpringFlower]]
*[[Spyguy|spyguy_anim]]
*[[Star Piece Cluster|StarPieceCluster / StarPieceClusterRock]]
*[[Statue Armour Ghost|StatueArmourGhost]]
*[[Super Jump Panel|SuperJumpPanel]]
*[[Surfing Kinopio|KNP_Surfing]]
*[[Surprised Flower|SurprisedFlower]]
*[[Tatami Block|obj_blk_tatami]]
*[[Thwomp Platform|ThwompPlatform]]
*[[Time Cloud|TimeCloudA]]
*[[Timer Gate|TimerGate]]
*[[Togemasuku|Czako_togemasuku]]
*[[Togetoge|Czako_togetoge]]
*[[Tokkuri Flower|TokkuriFlower]]
*[[Torpedo Base|torpedobase]]
*[[Tuki|f_tuki]] (clipping of <tt>f_tuki_wlk</tt> and <tt>f_tuki_act</tt>)
*[[Vampire Heyho|HeyhoVampire]]
*[[Wario Key|wario_key]]
*[[Wind Blow Tower|WindBlowExTower000]]
*[[Wind Mouth|WindMouth]]
*[[Wonder Packun|EnemyPackunWonder]]
*[[Wrench Shy Guy|ShyGuyWrench or Wrench_Guy]] (latter is from <tt>Tex/Wrench_Guy_2.bntx.zs</tt> and <tt>Tex/Wrench_Guy_8.bntx.zs</tt> files)
*[[Zombie Debuho|Debuho_Zombie]] (clipping of <tt>Debuho_Zombie</tt> assets)
Just wanted to make sure the rest of you who didn't dip out yet are all on the same page lol [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
 
This proposal shouldn't have touched development data names. This is a completely separate topic that needs a discussion of its own. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 10:14, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:You're right. There certainly was a switcharoo [[Special:Diff/4452631|here]], wasn't there? ''After'' <u>coordinated</u> '''20''' voted for an option that's technically no longer there. What is going on? We should at least have a rule that proposals initially written with group input can't be revised afterwards, or a voting cap before revisions are unallowed... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::Was there an actual executional difference added to the basic "Support" option? I don't think I'm catching one. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:54, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::I believe the distinction being made is that "Informant" is not an established adjective <s>for enemies</s>, so in grouping [[Informant Mucho]] into option 1, the premise has been ever so slightly changed from "if the parts of the name have been translated separately we are allowed to put the translations together" to "grant increased permission to extrapolate a 'normal' name from development data" (EDIT:slight misreading)[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 10:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::This is not really different from the "Comet" in Comet Tico though, and "Informant" is literally written in English in the game files in that case (not translated by wiki users). Only "Mūcho" would be translated to Snifit in that case, much as it always has been, which is definitely the sort of thing that the first 20 supporters voted for. I don't think that the wool is being pulled over anyone's eyes. (edit: and, as someone who voted shortly before option 2 was added, I knew that this is what I was voting for.) {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 11:25, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::So what's the article title of this informant character going to be? If it's anything other than "B4_Informant_MUC", wouldn't it be classified as a "derived" name? See the problem? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::{{fake link|Informant Snifit}}, presumably, if the proposal passes—I'm not sure I'm understanding the confusion? This is the type of derived/translated name that the proposal is seeking to allow. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 11:36, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::...I just made a list of what the second option would do if it passes, right above. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::Apologies, I misunderstood and thought we were discussing the results of option 1... In that case I agree that the informant should be moved to B4_Informant_MUC if option 2 passes, yeah. I don't see how this is misleading anyone or making previous votes invalid, though? {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 11:44, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Sorry, I misspoke a little bit since I had the first and second updates mixed up in my head in this roller-coaster of a proposal. To recap, there were a total of :30: votes at the time the proposal was [[Special:Diff/4452631|first]] updated, and the odd timing of in/semi-active editors had already been brought up at that point. At the time of the [[Special:Diff/4452872|second]] update, the second option was dialed back - as it should have been since that would have to be the focus of a [[MarioWiki:Writing guidelines#What are writing guidelines?|writing guideline]] proposal - but nearly :10: users had already voted for the earlier version of that option. Make sense? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::If the proposal's Ship-of-Theseus'd itself into a different thing entirely after so many votes, it should probably be canceled and <s>never</s> restarted. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::I'll take Nintendo101's word below, but I still don't think option updates should've happened with something that grew so large already. That just brought needless confusion, especially when eyebrows were already raised. If we're going to be super-technical, isn't the act of transliteration itself not a derivative form? I'll say it again: templates could probably just be rephrased. Also, if community-made proposals are technically not breaking any rules ''now'', I believe we'll definitely be thinking about making some rules ''later''. Speaking for myself, I've always made sure my proposals stood on their own in all my time here; if I ever talked about my proposal plans, I'm pretty sure I've never given a time frame or 'advertised' (for lack of better word) when it was ready, and if I've ever talked about an active one, I'm pretty sure it was nearly always to give courtesy when proposal options have changed or when new information comes to light. That method has worked out for most wiki proposals fairly well. I've never once paid attention to or noticed anything involving Discord discussions, and this may be the first time I've come across a Discord-community-developed proposal. Why not go all out and let Super Mario Wiki's social media followers in on this proposal's existence too? As long as we don't tell them how to vote, of course. Now that'd be interesting. Or is that too far? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:22, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::::I don't know how much the owners of the Twitter account (where the bulk of the site's social media presence lies) are willing to lay a spotlight on the wiki's dramas, even if you loosely describe the Twitter as an extension of the wiki community. There's something ironic in saying that these discussions may be too heated for a Twitter user, however, I always thought the Mario Wiki account tries to maintain an attitude of good humor towards its followers, and the vibe of a discussion like the one here feels kind of contrary to that. The most I've seen of the account actively promoting inner-wiki endeavours were things related to The 'Shroom or [https://x.com/smwikiofficial/status/1313121059348967427 requesting volunteers] [https://x.com/SMWikiOfficial/status/1298293764734164992 to provide some source material].<br>The people at the Discord server and Mario Boards are more readily available to vote because a lot of them are signed up wiki users, with at least some history here, and who are more used to these discussions. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:13, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::::Could always make a sub-account. I call it... Super Mario Wiki: Proposal Patrol. Alerts followers of new proposals and developments. <small>I'm <s>half</s>-joking, of course.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::::::This is not a "Discord-community-developed proposal" and it is very disappointing that this is your impression from the details I provided. I find it incredibly bad faith. The advice given to PopitTart entailed suggesting she give examples of what this proposal would look like if enacted and making sure it was formatted correctly in terms of date and voting options. That is literally it. She did not even tell anyone when she published it. That is extremely innocuous and common practice, and has always been available to you or any user on this site, via reach out on talk pages, Mario Boards, or Discord. It is not at all uncouth. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::::::Don't get me wrong. I trust your assessment of the situation. It's just that the Discord side of things is, to the old-fashioned like me, a mystery box. I don't see, I'm not involved. It was Admin Mario who pointed out the obvious irregularity, and that part of the discussion rolled from there. I'm just making it clear that I'm one of the ones who wouldn't like it to become a new regular. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:12, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::For full disclosure, I am a regular participant in the Super Mario Wiki Discord and I actively gave PopitTart pointers on how to write this very proposal, including the inclusion of that second voting option. I disagree with the proposed changes and still do, but that is less important to me than helping a less experienced user do the best job they can. But the point is that I was privy to the surrounding discourse.
:::::::::From my perspective, I saw an inexperienced user from {{iw|pikipedia|Pikipedia:Page title guidelines|a NIWA wiki with different naming policies}} (and one who has also been more active on the Discord over the past year or so just because it is friendly space, so it is not like they mysteriously rose out of the woodwork just to make this proposal) passively share that they thought it was silly to not translate some of these straight-forward Japanese names, and other users through their own volition and agency openly agreed with them, some of which quite strongly. I did not personally see anyone encourage them to write this proposal with the aims of taking down a policy they dislike, ask others to vote, to vote in any particular way, or coordinate a plan to vote together as a group. (I did see encouragement from the perspective that it is nice to see an inexperienced contributor want to develop a main page proposal, as staff and senior editors generally support people taking initiatives and participating in community-driven spaces like proposals, but that is not the same thing, at least in my view.) Again, maybe this still feels uncomfortable, but I did not see anything I would consider to be "solicitation." I saw a user share a view that others agreed with, and they decided to make a proposal. Maybe proposals should be written with that as a disclaimer, but I do not think it is the same as solicitation. I do not think anyone here, be it supporter or opposition, is here in bad faith, and only want the wiki to be the best it can be, and I hope folks remember this even if the proposal is not going in the direction they would like.
:::::::::For me, at the end of the day, '''I want to give readers good, accurate, and reliably attested information''', even if about silly Nintendo games. I do not feel comfortable asserting "there is an enemy called Fire Spike in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''", because that is not true. It is not called that in any ''Mario'' media. The impression I have is that I am calling it that because I ''want'' to call it that. Saying there is an enemy called Fire Gabon or even rendering that name as Faia Gabon, to me, ''is'' accurate and is just the information we have at the moment. The fact that this name looks silly next to related enemies like Stone Spike is a lot less substantive to me. I do not discount accessibility and readability as important - they absolutely are. I want people to come here, learn, and appreciate the work we do. However, I also believe readers are entitled to accurate information and I want the wiki to be trusted source. I do think the proposed changes weaken that a bit. There have been many good-faith arguments from the supporters - especially from Roserade and Hooded Pitohui - but none have addressed this impression of mine. My feelings are not as strong for in-game file names because the subjects I personally work with on the wiki typically have official names or are at least mentioned informally in officially-licensed literature, but I at least have found your remarks on this persuasive, LinkTheLefty. I think I realize from this discussion that I would support the Romanization of official Japanese names to take priority over internal file designations for games developed by Japanese speakers, but that is not what that this proposal is about. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:00, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::While I won't accuse the support to have been coordinated, especially coming off of your message, I will criticize the Discord folk for their tendency to come here with their mind made and refuse to take any of the counterarguments in consideration. "You want to make this wiki less accessible", "Encyclopedias should not rely on descriptions", and "ファイア is definitely not the same thing as the English word 'fire' in a different writing system" are not arguments made in good faith. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::I don't want this to turn into full discourse unrelated to the proposal, but I also think it's entirely unfair to assume attitudes like this, and to misconstrue arguments to put words in people's mouths. Everyone I've seen discuss this on Discord has fully acknowledged that counterarguments have merits, including myself. I read every single comment on this proposal before I ever placed my own vote or comment. And I never once said that I think your aim is to make things less accessible for the entire wiki - I stated why I feel like this change would ''improve'' accessibility, which is a different argument altogether. Also feels just a hair hypocritical to say that we're appearing while refusing to take in counterarguments, while you began this proposal process with a '''bolded statement on what our website's intention is,''' which felt like you staunchly claiming that your position would not change. I'm not going to engage with this any further than that, just, worth acknowledging. [[User:Roserade|Roserade]] ([[User talk:Roserade|talk]]) 13:53, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::::Your impression seems to be that my bolded statement was an opinion--if I'm wrong, correct me--but I was merely highlighting a truth: the express mission statement and, until some time ago, prevailing sentiment in the site was that [[MarioWiki:Citations#Why sourcing? What needs it?|it should present information as accurately to the source material as possible]]. Speculation has always been frowned upon and removed on sight here. If there is ever going to be a global consenus that it's a better direction for the wiki to consistently let users make up their own constructs and pass them off as fact, I can accept it. Until then, I will try to uphold the above principle and bring attention to any developments that undermine the current explicit direction. This is not hypocrisy. The provision of facts in a medium with educational purpose is not negotiable, and I'm certain you are sensible enough to understand that. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:34, December 6, 2024 (EST), edited 14:39, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::On supporting official Japanese names over internal file designations - there are also a lot of names that are perfectly good, near-1:1 translations of Japanese equivalents. From my list: Banana Squid, barbell, Black Fairy /Attack, Electricity Block, Fairy Board & Trampoline, Ice Snake Block, Rolling Frog, Snow Mole, Spring & Surprised Flowers, and Assembly Blocks, to name a few; surely these would be preferable to Banana Ika, Tetsu Arei, Kuro Yōsei /Attacker, Hōden Block, Yōsei Ban & Trampoline, Kōri Snake Block, Koro Gaeru, Yuki Mogura, Bane & Bikkuri Hana, and Gattai Block, respectively. I was actually thinking of making my own proposal that would virtually be a controlled version of this one, which would formalize dev transliterations to go alongside [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Exceptions to using macrons|these]] [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects with Japanese names|exceptions]] (for example, what we currently do with Bakky and Big Run Run Packun over Bakkī and Deka Run Run Pakkun, but extended as an additional reference point for "officialness" over fan-names). This proposal made me realize that...internal name handling was never formally codified in writing guidelines somewhere, was it? Rather, it's always been buried in discussions, even though I could've sworn otherwise. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:05, December 7, 2024 (EST)
 
I understand that at this point whether or not I vote is kinda irrelevant, but still, I'm curious, would [[Jewel Rausuto]] be moved to [[Jewel Goob]] or stay as is? I'd rather have it stay as is, personally. After all, "Summon Rausuto" and "Kill Rausuto" are officially translated as "Diffusing Goob" and "Lethal Goob" respectively. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:42, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:Hey, there's still 13 whole days left in this proposal, anything can happen. If you feel strongly about it, you should certainly make your voice heard. As for the Jewel Rausuto, I'm unsure, which means it probably should not be translated. You are correct that Diffusing Goob and Lethal Goob are not direct translations despite using English words, however Bomb Goob, Mini Goob, Regen Goob, and Speed Goob are. With that though, the "Jewel" part of the name is questionable. It drops ''gems'' when attacked, not jewels, so it's harder to make the same argument as Comet Luma here. This may be another case of individual subject discussion. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:07, December 6, 2024 (EST)
 
To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of either of the proposed changes, though I do agree the current guidelines need to be changed somehow. For example, Disaster Neko isn't the name in any language, it's not something that readers could intuitively search for, is barely comprehensible to most readers, and isn't even the actual filename. That's no good. Obviously there's no perfect solution (beyond Nintendo taking the time to properly localise everything we could write an article about, which realistically isn't going to happen), but might there be merit in pausing this proposal somehow? Given that there's now precedent for additional voting options being added in response to feedback, I think it would be worth letting the discussion play out without there being 'stakes' i.e. the voting deadline and the recognition that this will affect many, many pages.
 
I'm not an active editor and certainly not knowledgeable on the exact procedures of wiki proposals, but if there was an option to reset, re-discuss, and restart the proposal with voting options that properly reflected the outcome of the discussion, I would go for that. {{User:The Pyro Guy/sig}} 18:14, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:I'm not certain about the logistics about pausing a proposal or anything of that sort (nor would I have any stake in such a decision), but I will say, I do think the idea of letting the discussion play out without "stakes", as you say, has merit. Something here on which I agree with KCC on is that this is ultimately related to the mission of the site, and perceptions and sentiments around how to achieve that mission. What this proposal is adressing is a matter of organizing, categorizing, and especially presenting information, and that tends to invoke considerations of high-level, philosophical approaches. Unlike, say, a hypothetical proposal to merge two varieties of Goombas, the discussion doesn't hinge on demonstrating some detail is true or false; instead, we're explorting as a community a major aspect of how we fulfill our mission of collecting and presenting the ''Mario'' franchise to an audience of Internet users. Whenever a discussion veers into philosophies around categorizing and presenting information, you often get a surprising diversity of views, and those views tend to be strongly held - if you've ever waded into taxonomy, you'll see it!
 
:In light of that, I think firm guidance is beneficial on a high-level, philosophical matter like this, and that the wiki staff are in the best position to offer those kinds of firm guidelines. That's not to say that there's no room for community input! On the contrary, I think discussions like this are highly beneficial, both to the community at large so that editors can guage one another's opinions and as a way for wiki staff to see that this is an issue under consideration of the wiki, but I do wonder if there could be a more accessible or active public arena for them (like the forum) outside of formal proposals. Proposals necessarily have a time limit, and necessarily are limited to one outcome or the other (though certainly measures can be taken to address the concerns of voters on the opposite side or sides), both of which put pressure on the discussion.
 
:All of this is to say, I think TPG has a good point. A discussion like this might benefit from playing out without the constraints of a proposal. And as a personal thought, unrelated to TPG's, seeing as this speaks to those philosophies or organizing and presenting information, I would personally have no objection if the wiki staff were to sit on the points raised in the discussion and to issue a policy ruling based on the outcome of their deliberations. I'm not advocating for that. The staff know better than I do if that's a wise course of action or not, after all! Rather, I only mean that I would personally find that an acceptable resolution as well as resolution by proposal, whatever their decision.
 
:All of that said, I do still want to commend PopitTart for bringing the proposal up in the first place. I've said before and I'll say again, I think it was a good effort from an earnest contributor, and the vigorous discussion is has produced is ultimately a positive for putting the wiki's editors on the same page even if there are disagreements. I hope you will continue to contribute to the wiki and that you feel comfortable here! [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]])
:I would be open to this idea, if it is indeed a viable option allowed by the rules. The addition of Option 2 was made in response to feedback, but with less thought than it might have needed compared to the original proposal. Doing this could also help quell the worries of solicitation and Discord interference by some, since much more discussion would nessesarily be on-wiki.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:33, December 6, 2024 (EST)
 
All this discussion about the veracity of the proposal itself, and we honestly still don't know what the plan is for if the second option passes. Like, what, do we ''actually'' rename [[Pump Mario]] to "STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI"? The proposal suggests that some names would be trimmed, but the only example trims just a number; there are no numbers in that mouthful. Where exactly are we intending to draw the line? Do we go as far as to just trim it to "PUMP_MARIO"? Is it really more accurate to just make the name all-caps and include an underscore? How exactly do we intend to make these longer internal names make sense grammaticaly, within the actual article text? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:13, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:I belive internal names could be trimmed down, but it would be up to more disccussion. It was suggested earlier that things could be formatted as "<code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code> is the internal name for a form taken on by Mario in the ''Mario & Luigi'' series". --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:33, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::We are not going to "pause" a proposal. If a proposal cannot proceed because it needs to be ironed out more, it should be canceled and go back to a drawing board on a sandbox page pending more discussion. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:26, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::It'd be helpful if the list of projected first-option changes was also in full; the last time derived names was used, it was mostly directionless and led to many conflicting ideas on how to go about it, and it should be the proposer's duty to reassure us. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:55, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::I've started such a list on my [[User:PopitTart|userpage]], currently with just subjects listed in [[:Category:Articles with titles from development data]] as there are a '''''lot''''' of articles in the foreign language category to sift through. The proposed names are sorted into categories based on their varacity.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:44, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::I still intend to abstain from this proposal, but as for your list, [[Dark Nokonoko]], [[Wonder Packun]], and [[Mecha Nokonoko]] feel more like they'd fit in the Shy Guy zone than the categories you placed them in. As with Shy Guys, Koopa Troopa and Piranha Plant variants use both the base species' full names and the shortened "Koopa" and "Piranha" respectively. In particular, the Wonder Packun's similarities to the [[Cloud Piranha]]s should be noted—both are associated with [[Castle Bowser]] and appear exclusively in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]''{{'}}s world map as barricades of sorts. On the other hand, Mecha Nokonoko wouldn't overlap with [[Mechakoopa]] if you were to refer to it as "Mecha Koopa Troopa". The other categorizations seem sound to me, though. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 20:24, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::I never clocked "X Piranha" or "X Koopa" as being distinct means of naming, rather a shortening of what the full "X Piranha Plant "X Koopa Troopa" name would have been. But, that is still a very fair pespective that should be considered.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:54, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::::In my opinion, longer names make more sense for all of the tossups except Wonder Packun/Piranha. Packun/Flower and Hey/ho have precedence as the long-short forms. Noko less so, but it can be confused with other Koopas. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:15, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::I mean, that only really works out for the opening of articles. What about when the name appears mid-sentence? We mentioned it in the vote itself, but we can't think of a way to make "They consistently spew water into a small basin, allowing Mario to swallow some and turn into Pump Mario." flow well if Pump Mario is now <code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code>. Like, what, do we say "Allowing mario to swallow some and turn into the form known as <code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code> in the data"? Asinine wouldn't even begin to describe that one... {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 11:03, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::"become this form," I'd say. As long as it doesn't end up like [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Head Honcho Carpaccio|this]], that should be fine. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:34, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::The question is how does another article that isn't primarily about the form refer to it? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:37, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::I would say at the very least <code>STRM_SE_</code> wouldn't be included in the article name, as this is very clearly info to signify that the file is a sound effect, not actually a name for the form itself. {{User:Shy Guy on Wheels/sig}} 11:57, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::Neither is "KUSUGURI". That means "tickle", referring to the [[Tickle]] move. It's not part of the name for the form, so saying that the form is referred to as <code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code> is just incorrect. It's referred to IN the name, but not AS the name. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:16, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::Then what's left? Just <code>PUMP_MARIO</code>? Are we really going to enforce it being all-caps and with an underscore if the second option passes, just in the name of "accuracy"? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:30, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::<s>I was wondering when someone would notice.</s> Looks like "PUMP_MARIO" it is, although I am reminded of this [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|old common-sense proposal]]. If we did something like that, we might even be able to use...well, you know. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:34, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::::At that point, if preserving the original presentation is so important that some names from internal data have to be shown in SCREAMING_SNAKE_CASE, then shouldn't moderately-large-persimmon-enemy's name be rendered in kana as {{fake link|こでかカキボー}}? Otherwise, how is it too speculative to give a name sensible capitalization and, you know, spaces, but not to change it to an entirely different writing system? (Of course, I'm not actually arguing for using Japanese characters in page titles, in case that isn't clear.) [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:31, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I mean, there's this nifty feature called "redirects"... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:51, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::::::We should omit underscores for page names for wiki purposes. Underscores are added to filenames solely for programming reasons because reading scripts for filenames can get fucked up if spaces are used rather than underscores. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:22, December 7, 2024 (EST)
 
The more I think of it, the funnier the idea gets of straight up using filenames to name things on the wiki. I unironically want to see that.<br>
{{color|green|<nowiki>></nowiki>be me}}<br>
{{color|green|<nowiki>></nowiki>cheepcheep.gif}}<br>{{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:28, December 7, 2024 (EST)
 
I have "completed" (it's a simple once-over of the dev data and foreign language cateories) a list of articles that might be affected by option 1 of this proposal passing, and what their new names could be, or what further discussion about them individually may entail. For the sake of not making this proposal even more oversized than it already is, I'll just [[User:PopitTart#Derived Name list|link to where I've written it on my userpage]].--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 22:29, December 7, 2024 (EST)
 
@DesaMatt: The opposition's point (or at least my point) isn't that the wiki is an official source or is trying to be one. I think many people here would be confused and displeased if "Fire Gabon" actually became the official English name. Rather, the fact that we're not an official source means it isn't our job to translate names that official sources have not translated. There's a difference between being an official source and being a source that compiles information from official sources. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:45, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:I read their argument as moreso that, what is the meaningful difference between writing "'''Deka Hoppin''' are large [[Hoppycat]]s" (quote directly from the current page) and just calling it "Big Hoppycat"? Both examples require inference of things that haven't officially been stated in English."''Why is it bad to call Fire Spike by that name term when everyone can agree that's what they are but it's not bad to describe anything using words that were never used by Nintendo at all''?"--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 11:31, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::Come to think of it, that whole [[Special:Diff/4407550#Size Experiments: Plan|"''deka''" mess]] still has yet to be sorted out. Regardless, while I like that this now has a more defined structure, I'll touch on my main position a little more. If this wiki is big enough to be a significant point of reference by all sorts ''anyway'' - amateur and industry alike - I'd rather we take the path that results in the least trouble for all parties. More fan-tweaks means more opportunities to accidentally violate CC BY-SA 3.0 (no, I don't think the inverse is nearly as likely when the alternative obfuscates officiality). I firmly believe that direction - and votes like DesaMatt's show that at least it ''is'' seen as a step in another direction - will erode wiki usability and license trust in the long run. The second option is arguably the most immediately satisfactory in that regard, but you know how I felt about that earlier, and I and others are starting to think that dev data would best be reevaluated in another proposal. I speak for myself, not of all the opposition. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:27, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::My perspective is that page titles and page text are somewhat different matters, where titles are trying to reflect actual official sources as much as possible while page text is trying to explain official sources. We do translate [[Fire Gabon]] to "Fire Spike" in its names in other languages section, because that's us explaining the official name, but "Fire Spike" itself is not an official name that has ever been used, so it shouldn't be the title. Sort of like how we're allowed to comment on [[Podley]]'s resemblance to the Beanish without declaring that he officially is one. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:33, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::The difference, to me at least, is that "Deka Hoppin" is the enemy's name, and "Big Hoppycat" is not. That's it. This enemy is a big Hoppycat, and I do not think anyone is arguing it is not. Describing it as such is an accurate, literal reading of the game and the enemy's physical design, and it even has the name of its parent species ホッピン (''Hoppin'') in its own Japanese name, which traditionally is a cue that certain enemies are related to one another. I also think it is extremely likely that "Big Hoppycat" will be the name Nintendo themselves publish when they come around to localizing the last few enemies in this game. But that does not change the objective truth that, at this moment, this enemy is not named "Big Hoppycat" anywhere, and so I don't feel comfortable saying that is its name. It has nothing to do with any kind of unique reverence for Nintendo - I don't really care what they do. It has to do with my belief that readers are entitled to the truth in their reference material. My hope for our fan wiki is to provide good, accurate, and reliable information. Saying this enemy's name is "Big Hoppycat" just isn't true, and the arguments I have seen in this thread do not dispute that. Instead, the arguments I have heard in response is that being truthful is not important for a fan wiki about Nintendo games or is less important than accessibility. I agree accessibility is important, but I don't understand why displaying Deka Hoppin or limiting ourselves to the names that have actually been released is harming accessibility. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:01, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:::Simply put, the reason it hurts accessibility is because it's giving a foreign name to English readers stripped of its context, since the subjects it should be related to all have English names. Amongst a lineup of [[Bullet Bill]], [[Big Bullet Bill]], [[Bomber Bill]], [[Bull's-Eye Bill]], [[Seeker Bullet Bill]], and many others, its extremely easy to miss the very direct connection [[Deka Chase Killer]] has to them. I didn't even catch that the [[Deka Korobū|bigger Snootle]] and [[Kodeka Maimai|bigger Swirlypod]] already had articles until compiling my name-change list because the connection Nintendo intended those names to have is lost.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:07, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::::What we wish was the official name doesn't become the official name, and as I argued way up the page in my vote, variants don't always have to have their relationship immediately obvious from name alone. Amongst a line-up of [[Shy Guy]], [[Spear Guy]], [[Stilt Guy]], [[Woozy Guy]], [[Fly Guy]], [[Boo Guy]], and many others, would you guess that [[Bandit]] is a Shy Gut variant? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:16, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:::::I don't think thats a particuarly good counterpoint, and I point to the Japanese names to explain why. [[Bullet Bill|Killer]], [[Big Bullet Bill|Kyodai Killer]], [[Bomber Bill|Magnum Killer]], [[Bull's-Eye Bill|Search Killer]], [[Seeker Bullet Bill|Chase Killer]], [[Deka Chase Killer]]. Meanwhile, the shy guy names are [[Shy Guy|Heihō]], [[Spear Guy|Yarihō]], [[Stilt Guy|Takeuma Heihō]], [[Woozy Guy|Moonsault Heihō]], [[Fly Guy|Propeller Heihō]], [[Boo Guy|Yūrei Heihō]], and [[Bandit|Borodō]]. Even alongside Japanese names, Borodō is a distinct name, intended by Nintendo, and that is reflected in the localized names. The only reason Deka Chase Killer stands out is because it has been removed from the naming conventions it was intended for ''by the Super Mario Wiki''.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:32, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::::::Either way, the point stands that the official name being simply "Bandit" could be confusing to some (as has been argued for the other names), but that doesn't make it not the official name, in the same way Deka Chase Killer not fitting in doesn't make it not official. I feel like it's hard to invoke "intent by Nintendo" for a proposal where the goal is to ignore Nintendo's names. We aren't Nintendo, so we don't know their intent, which is why we should just use the names they provide without changing them to suit what we think they ought to be. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:40, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::::::That also continues to ignore the repeatedly mentioned simple solution of redirects. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:10, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I don't think saying "just use redirects" is as great of an argument as you think it is because this proposal is not about looking up a subject in the search bar. It is about how it is read within a sentence on an article's page or how it appears in categories, or [[List of enemies|list articles]], or in the infoboxes of related enemies with clearer English names, or in the enemy table for the only game it appears in. It is about how the text is read. Redirects would not meaningfully address any of those issues, which is why they are not part of the proposal at all. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:57, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::::::::That can be mitigated in other ways that don't involve doing what this proposal aims to do. Most lists make the relation self-evident, like templates, list of species, and lists within enemy and game articles. Personally, I always thought the lists of species and enemies looked really similar, so you can model the latter after the former or even outright merge them, for instance. I think it was also suggested that prose can soften without having to alter article names. Mind, this can still be a little obnoxious when you're looking at some categories like the proposer did, but in many web browsers, you can always hover your mouse <small><small><small><small>(oh no my old-fashionedness really is showing)</small></small></small></small> over any name to get the main image and introductory paragraph for a refresher without having to click it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:50, December 9, 2024 (EST)
::::::::The wiki almost always provides a context clue that a subject is a variant of something else, even if the subject is presented with a non-English name. The enemy tables I've seen place these subjects right after their base variant, with an image and a blurb to help readers further identify them (which, contrary to what others will tell you, is the very point of an encyclopedia); the [[List of species]] also puts variants in sub-lists directly following the base species; and I don't think I need to talk about how compact and distilled infoboxes are. The only places where the structure cannot be modified in a way similar to the above are categories, but I expect readers to use these less often than content pages. All in all, the non-English names continue to be a non-issue to those who aren't concerned with linguistic purism. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:32, December 9, 2024 (EST)
::It's bad because "Big Hoppycat" is not what Nintendo ever called it, and it's prioritizing a fan-made name over an official one despite the wiki inherently revolving around official material, reasons given being that "we are an English wiki" (a concerning point of view that undermines the wiki's neutrality just because of a choice of lingua franca), "encyclopedias shouldn't rely on descriptions" (lolwut???), and "this site is not nintendo.com". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:42, December 8, 2024 (EST)
 
Question related to this proposal for those more familiar with the fine details of the wiki's inner working: What are the current guidelines for naming powered-up characters? Articles like [[Fire Mario]], [[Penguin Mario]], [[Ice Mario]], etc. give names to the forms taken by characters besides Mario when using those powerups. Are these conjectural? If so, do conjectural naming priority rules used for other subject apply? If its found that [[Boomerang Mario|Boomerang Rosalina]] has an official Japanese name but no stated English one, would her form be refered to as ''Boomerang Rozetta''?--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 01:39, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:Simply put, we don’t have a dedicated page for Boomerang Rosalina, only for Boomerang Mario. In fact, at the moment we don’t even have a dedicated page for Kitsune Luigi even though it’s a peculiar form, with its own name (both in English and Japanese) and appearance - pretty different from that of the Tanooki forms. When it comes to naming powerups outside of page names, due to established naming conventions from Nintendo the only relevant part is the “powerup” part, which is what comes before the character’s name. In any case, suspect cases like Giga Cat Plessie are indeed marked as conjectural, but that’s mostly because we aren’t sure it’s a Giga Cat form to begin with.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 03:16, December 9, 2024 (EST)
 
Here's an example I think completely destroys this proposal's argument: [[Goombud]]. Its Japanese name, and indeed, its purpose and role, have it as a combination of [[Galoomba]] (''Kuribon'') and [[Goombrat]] (''Kakibou''), and indeed its Japanese name is ''Kakibon'' reflecting that. Ahead of release, at least a few people took to calling them "Galoombrats," but lo and behold, their English name ended up being totally different. This is a ''recent example'', too, so not like how [[Clubba]] (''Gabon-hei'')'s English name is completely irrelevant to [[Spike]] (''Gabon'')'s despite their linked Japanese names. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:38, December 10, 2024 (EST)
:A portmantau is given as an example in the original proposal through [[Baboom]], whose japanese name is a portmantau of hanabi (fireworks) and Bomuhei ([[Bob-omb]]). It, Kakibon, and any other subject whose name isn't <code>[unique trait][space][subject]</code> would not be subject to the changes made by this propsal.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 15:46, December 10, 2024 (EST)
::It's proof enough that this proposal is building off a false premise, though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:52, December 10, 2024 (EST)
:::It feels like this argument stems from a misunderstanding of what the proposal's premise is to begin with. The goal as I understand it is to use derived English names in cases where the official name can be straightforwardly translated, for the sake of accessibility, while still making clear that those derivations are not actually official. Since PopitTart already clarified the proposal's stance on other kinds of names, I struggle to understand what argument is left from bringing up Goombud/Kakibon to begin with. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 12:40, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::It shows that "straightforward" is a false premise. Just like with Clubba or Pyro Guy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:24, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::Putting aside that "Galoombrat" isn't really a "straightforward" translation in the same way... sure, it's subjective, but that's why the proposal suggests implementing the names on a case-by-case basis. And even if a name turns out to be wrong later, it can simply be moved to the right one — again, it's not as if derived names will be treated with the same importance as official ones. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 17:53, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::I think you're overselling the difference in importance, here. It's going to amount to a template at the top of the article. Everywhere else on the wiki — navboxes, article text on other articles, everything — is going to treat a name we made up as if it ''is'' official. If you don't click on the article and check the top, it'll be impossible to tell. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:27, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::How does this differ from the wiki's current use of fully conjectural names? --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:31, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::Fully conjectural names are supposed to be simple. That's why stuff like the conjecturally-named ''Virtual Boy Wario Land'' enemies were renamed a while back to not sound less like somebody's idea of official (ie. many of them had hyphen stylizations like in the manual). In a sense, this will do the ''opposite'' of that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:48, December 12, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I'm not sure how applicable this is to variant subjects, like this proposal is for. It is very reasonable to move Upside-Downer to [[crawling skull]], but is it even possible to give [[Gold Mini Goomba]], [[Fortune Toad]], [[Big Note Piranha Plant]], or [[Puffy Lift Mario]] conjectural names that accurately describe them and don't sound official? My argument is that these kinda of names ''are'' the simplest ones, and it would be more helpful to readers to see them rather than Japanese or internal names.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 12:34, December 12, 2024 (EST)
 
::::::::On a related note, once, someone moved the page that is now known as [[Flipbug]] to "Flying Mandibug" because they thought it sounded "more official," despite their resemblance to [[Mandibug]]s beginning and ending with "they're beetles found in similar places in the same game." The discussion to move it back had some people seemingly under the impression the page was actually about a "flying Mandibug" rather than the completely different subject it described. This is a slippery slope that should be avoided at all costs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:42, December 12, 2024 (EST)
 
::::::Because for conjectural names, no other name exists. In these situations, we already ''have'' a name we can call them. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:03, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::For whatever it's worth, a suggestion has been offered on the Discord server to extend conjectural name formatting guidelines to derived names as well, using [[Template:Hover|hoverable text]]. That, I think, would solve any problems there, though I don't know if that will need to be a separate proposal after this one passes. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 18:46, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The conjecture template is not universally used whenever an article with a conjectural title is linked to. In fact, I'm fairly certain the ''only'' places they're used consistently is for glitches on the pages covering them, and on the tables on game articles. So using a similar template in the same way would fix little of the potential problems. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:03, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Hoverable text is far from ideal because it does not adapt well to smart devices. On those, the way you can interact as an end user with text marked as hoverable is to tap on it, which replaces the text outright with the note that would show up beside on PC. Try {{hover|this|drinking water as much as you can on a warm day}}. The problem arises when you make hoverable text out of linked text: how are you supposed to interact with {{hover|[[History of Bowser|this]]|a Mario Wiki page}} on mobile without loading up a new page? Or is mobile accessibility not worth pursuing? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:05, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::These suggestions isn't set in stone, anyway, and I think there are a number of solutions that could be considered for this (footnotes, for instance). That might need to be hashed out after this proposal is passed, however. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 19:16, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::This is a problem that goes beyond the scope of this proposal. Ideally, all unofficial names, conjectural ''or'' derived, would have an easy-to-access note stating as such. If [[Big Run Run Packun|Big Trottin' Piranha Plant]] is easy to mistake as official, then the same goes for [[Gold Big Piranha Plant]].--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:23, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Replying to both of y'all here — I don't think an issue of implementation as major as this one can just be shrugged off and "saved for later". That's an indefinite period of time where links to "derived names" indistinguishable from real ones are going to plague the wiki, with no plan to fix it that can take mobile users into account. I recognize that the proposal is likely to pass anyway, but I don't think that's an excuse to just sweep the problem under the rug. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:50, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::PorpleMontage has recently updated [[Template:Conjectural]] and created [[Template:Derived]] which can apply a hovertext note to a name when its in plaintext, and add a supserscript note when the name is a link. Would this be an effective option?--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:13, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::The problem is putting these everywhere these "derived names" appear. That includes navboxes, so as an aside I'd like to say that even quote marks in navboxes feel like a waste of width to me, so entire superscript notes on multiple items apalls me. But the real problem is tracking down every use of these derived names and sticking these notes on them. I'll be honest — I do not believe that will happen. There are ''many'' "derived names" and ''many'' references thereto, and given the infrequent usage of [[Template:Conjectural]] currently and this very proposal's vote ratio, I don't expect the effort to be expended. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:35, December 12, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::At that point, why not just leave the enemy's name intact? Footnotes? Why all these convoluted ways to tell readers that "hey, just letting you know this is a name we made up even though the enemy has an official name. Just a heads-up, oki? Feel the warmth of ''a c c e s s i b i l i t y.''--when the altnernative is both much simpler to manage, eludes all these lengthy discussions on the "right" manner to name subjects, and is ultimately more accurate to the source material? ''Why try to fix a problem that literally does not exist, only to bring about multiple problems in the process??'' {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:39, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::I'm sorry, but I really am not sure what you're trying to say with this reply. Conjectural names specifically exist ''because'' there is no official name, so a solution for this is nessesary regardless of how it relates to derived names.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:13, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::I think we've really gotten in the weeds here with all this talk about putting footnotes on conjectural names. None of that is actually relevant here. The truth is, conjectural names being unmarked outside of their own article is fine to me. I recognize I may not have come off that way, and I apologize for potentially misleading the discussion, but referring to [[arrow field]]s consistently as "arrow fields" without any disclaimer on other articles is fine to me. The reason I'm not fine with unmarked "derived names" is that "derived names" ''themselves'' are not fine to me. They are an entirely different situation to conjectural names, as instead of no official name existing, here there ''is'' an official name that we have decided an unofficial one is superior to. I'm sorry I let talk of some kind of indicator template sidetrack us, but the truth is, even if we had a perfectly smooth to read and perfectly easy to upkeep implementation of them (and we don't), warning people we made up a name we didn't have to is a bandaid fix for the fact that we made up a name we didn't have to in the first place. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:35, December 12, 2024 (EST)
 
===Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations===
{{early notice|December 16}}
Based on [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/46#Split_all_remaining_courts.2Fboards_based_on_recurring_places_from_their_parent_articles|this proposal]].
 
Location articles for RPGs have a unique issue in that there's a lot of data that needs to be catalogued. Enemy encounters, item locations, area maps. Normally this is not much of an issue, unless the location reappears in several games, where it becomes a VERY big organization problem. The game's data is split across two separate locations and bundled with the information for other several games, making it a pain to extract useful info. [[Toad Town]], [[Bowser's Castle]] and [[Peach's Castle]] are the greatest offenders here, being way more unwieldy to navigate than other comparable RPG areas such as [[Beanbean Castle Town]] or [[Palace of Shadow]]. With the recent return of the Mario & Luigi series, this issue is only going to become worse unless something is done about it.
 
This proposal aims to treat all of these castles and towns and islands as their own location, in the same way we split ''Super Mario'' levels, race tracks and sports courts. The main page would still link to it in its History section.
 
The question is, what counts as a major appearance? I'd say a major appearance is any appearance that warrants a Profiles and statistics section. That means Bowser's Castle in TTYD or Mario's house and Peach's Castle in M&LSS would not get split.
 
By my count, these pages would need to be created. It might seem like a big list, but most of it would just be copying over what is already in the base articles.
* [[Bowser's Castle]]:
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Keep (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Paper Mario'')}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Paper Mario: The Origami King'')}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'')}}
** {{Fake link|Baby Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')}} (potentially merged with [[Fawful Theater]], per Pseudo)
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Brothership'')}} (potentially merged with [[Wayaway Island]], per Technetium)
* [[Peach's Castle]]:
** {{Fake link|Mushroom Castle (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Paper Mario'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle'')}} (I'm not familiar enough with the game to be 100% sure if it's warranted. Input is welcome.)
* [[Toad Town]]:
** {{Fake link|Mushroom Kingdom (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Paper Mario'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Paper Mario: The Origami King'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')}}
* [[Yoshi's Island (location)|Yoshi's Island]]:
** {{Fake link|Yo'ster Isle (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
 
Additionally, there are some grey areas that are worth considering separately.
 
* [[Star Hill]]: This one's a unique situation, seeing as it's a location that has only appeared in RPGs, and has only shown up in a major capacity. Splitting all three would leave us with no "main" article for the location itself.
** {{Fake link|Star Hill (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Shooting Star Summit (''Paper Mario'')}}
** {{Fake link|Star Hill (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
* [[Mario Bros.' House]]: This only BARELY counts as a major appearance. The amount of stuff listed in the Profiles and statistics section can be counted on one hand. Nontheless, it's included here for completion.
** {{Fake link|Mario's Pad (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Mario's House (''Paper Mario'')}}
 
These are all the examples I could find, but suggestions are very welcome. I'm also not completely sure about the names each article should have.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Split locations in only the first list====
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} Voting for this currently, and I'll add a second choice after some conversation on the second list happens.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Strong support for this as it would make navigating and maintaining the relevant sections of these articles ''much'' easier; it’s also in-line with how we handle appearances of locations like Bowser's Castle in platformers already (see [[World 8-Bowser's Castle (Super Mario Bros. 3)]] et al). Star Hill seems fine to me as-is as an RPG-exclusive location with less unique to say about it in terms of its individual appearances, as does Mario's House since it is typically a fairly minor location in its appearances; I think that it's OK to handle these things on a case-by-case basis.
#{{User|Zootalo}} Per all.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Articles are getting really big and this is probably best for organisation purposes.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} While we would like it more if the [[Neo Bowser Castle]]s were included, this ''is'' a step in the right direction and one we'd like to see.
#{{User|Tails777}} I can see merit with this, organization being the big one. Plus the whole Neo Bowser Castle thing does add to being a good point.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Exiled.Serenity}} The current setup seems a bit inconsistent. It's especially strange that the boss fight from Bowser's Inside Story doesn't have its own page.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Star Hill should probably have its own proposal like it and Neo Bowser's Castle have had in the past, though it stands to reason that these listed articles are big enough to split in a way similar to histories and galleries.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} This has always bugged me! Articles like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle can be such a pain to navigate and they tend to get less coverage than unique locations. I also advocate for splitting the Neo Bowser Castles because if they had went with any other name they'd be separate (it's just that Paper Jam isn't particularly known for its originality).
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
 
====Split locations in the first list, split Star Hills, do not split Mario's Houses====
#{{User|Pseudo}} Also voting for this; not sure what I'd consider my first or second vote currently, with further consideration. Splitting Star Hill as well would probably aid with navigability at least a bit, though I still think that splitting Mario's House would accomplish little.
 
====Split locations in both lists====
 
====Do not split any of these locations====
 
====Comments on splits====
I'm wondering something about Bowser's Castle in Brothership specifically. It’s located on [[Wayaway Island]], which has its own page. Assuming this proposal passes, should we merge the castle into the Wayaway Island page, or make a new one as titled in the proposal? [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 13:46, December 8, 2024 (EST)
 
If we do this, could we ''please'' split the [[Neo Bowser's Castle]]s too? Because like. One of those is a wholly unique castle, and the other is literally just Paper Jam's incarnation of [[Bowser's Castle]], after having been lifted up into the sky on a purple drone doohickey. It is literally just the exact same castle aside from that, and yet it has its information put into the same article as Dream Team's Neo Bowser's Castle, just because they share a name. This has been bugging us ever since we noticed it, and we feel like this proposal could be a good time to finally split those two up. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:36, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:I would be in support of this, including adding it to the current proposal. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 14:40, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::The Neo Bowser Castles were merged from another proposal. By the way, Peach's Castle in ''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom'' Battle is like in ''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' and ''Super Mario 64'', the main hub of the game. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 14:43, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:::Honestly, one of the main reasons why the Neo Bowser Castles remain merged is largely because of places like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle. If those started getting split by game, Neo Bowser Castle would become more reasonable to split as well. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::::yeah, i don't feel comfortable adding Neo here bc i feel it's a slightly different case, since it's not exactly a recurring location. there's definitely room for using this proposal as precedent for it if it passes, though. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}
 
For what it's worth, [[Fawful Theater]], a location within Bowser's Castle, which takes up most of the castle in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]]'', already has its own article, so it may be prudent to merge Fawful Theater with the to-be-split {{fake link|Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)}} article if the proposal passes. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 15:03, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:There's also the matter of the boss fight against Bowser's Castle. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:36, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::that presumes BIS Bowser Castle getting split, though {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}
 
If this passes, can we split {{fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Super Mario World'')}} from [[Yoshi's Island (location)]] in a similar way as well? I just think it's weird that this is the ''only'' platformer world (to my knowledge) that doesn't have its own article, and that kinda data is instead lumped on a page for the general location. By that logic, [[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey)]] should be merged with either [[Mushroom Kingdom]] or [[Peach's Castle]] as well. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:01, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:the original draft for this proposal covered SM64 and SMO's Peach's Castles before i decided to scale it down to just the RPGs, actually! hopefully this serves as precedent to split both those and yoshi's island. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}
::I would definitely be in support of these splits as well, though I can understand wanting to keep the proposal focused. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 10:39, December 9, 2024 (EST)
::I'd support ''Super Mario 64'' Mushroom Castle. I don't remember how big or notable the ''Super Mario Odyssey'' one was. Yoshi's Island had its own discussion and proposal at one point that should be reviewed. The individual ''Super Mario World'' articles ''do'' do their job... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:11, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:::Technically, Peach's Castle from Odyssey is already split from the main Peach's Castle article, as it's being integrated into the aforementioned [[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey)]] article. In the game, Peach's Castle is treated as the Mushroom Kingdom's greater location, aka the main explorable world from that kingdom, in the same way how Tostarena is treated as the [[Sand Kingdom]]'s greater location/explorable world and how New Donk City is treated as that to the [[Metro Kingdom]]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:38, December 9, 2024 (EST)


==Removals==
Recently, I changed the [[Yoshi Sphinx]] article from solely covering its Sticker Star appearance to covering all of its appearances throughout the series, which sparked a bit of discussion about splitting it. I can't say this particular split excites me, given how minor every other appearance of it is, but I wanted it to bring it up here since it's related — do y'all think that should be split as well? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:32, December 8, 2024 (EST)
''None at the moment.''
:The Yoshi Sphinx is only really a "location" in Sticker Star and is just kind of a recurring motif in other games, so we feel like a split in that context is largely unnecessary. I mean, what, are we meant to make an article called {{Fake link|Yoshi Sphinx (Super Mario 64 DS)}} which just says "The Yoshi Sphinx (Super Mario 64 DS) appears in the interface of the [[Puzzle Panel]] and [[Puzzle Panic]] minigames. It re-appears in [[New Super Mario Bros. DS]], also in the Puzzle Panel minigame."? That seems excessive. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:14, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::the proposal says "major RPG appearances of reocurring locations", not "interface decorations of platformer minigames", so i assume Ahemtoday means splitting {{Fake link|Yoshi Sphinx (''Paper Mario Sticker Star'')}}. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}
:I would prefer the Yoshi Sphinx article remained as is now. The other recurring sphinxes are so minor that the article already has a decent focus on the ''Paper Mario'' appearance. (Great article, by the way!) {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 22:05, December 8, 2024 (EST)


==Splits & Merges==
Do Bowser's Keep, Mario's Pad, Yo'ster Isle, Shooting Star Summit, and Baby Bowser's Castle need identifiers? I'm pretty sure those names are localized entirely within their games and related media. Also, I believe "Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'')" should be "Toadtown Square" and "Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')" should be "Bowser Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')". There could be others missed. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:50, December 9, 2024 (EST)
''None at the moment.
:the identifiers are mostly to let people know which game each town or castle is from, they can def be removed for the actual articles. thanks for the naming tips, however! {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}16:05, December 9, 2024 (EST)


==Changes==
I honestly wouldn't want the ''Bowser's Inside Story'' Bowser's Castle article to be titled as "Fawful Theater". The game itself labels it as "Bowser's Castle" and the theater is only the smaller upper portion of the castle whereas the larger basement has nothing to do with the theater. I'd do it the other way around: either merge Fawful Theater with "Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)" or keep Fawful Theater as its own article. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 20:05, December 9, 2024 (EST)
===Using Cheat Sites as References===
{{User|Luigi001}} and I recently found out that the ''[[Mario Super Sluggers]]'' page uses a cheat site as a reference. This doesn't seem very professional. Cheat sites often contain unofficial information, have no proof to verify their "facts", and commonly have fake cheats. In my opinion, we should avoid linking to cheat sites because of this. After all, this wiki is not a game guide, it is an encyclopedia. We usually write articles on games and levels in a walkthrough manner, yet it does not refer directly towards the reader. We do not place cheat codes on our articles; we do not place game hacks on are articles. Why link to a cheat page when we don't allow cheats directly on an article in the first place? So, here's my proposition: we keep writing articles in the same fashion we have been &ndash; a neutral, third person walkthrough style. We always have allowed hints in our articles as long as they are written in a walkthrough manner. So, in turn, we should stop adding links to cheat sites to our articles as references.


'''Proposers''': {{User|Stooben Rooben}} and {{User|Luigi001}}<br>
Just to be clear, these will continue to have main-article templates on the origin's article and ''not'' be treated as a distinct subject, correct? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:08, December 9, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': November 20, 2008, 17:00
:The proposal says that "the main page would still link to it in its History section", so I think so. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:20, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:That's the impression I had. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:48, December 12, 2024 (EST)


====Support====
===Broaden the scope of the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations===
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} - Per my and Luigi001's reasons provided above.
With the [[Template talk:Unreferenced#Delete or be more specific|previous proposal]] having passed with being more specific as the most voted, I've come up with a proposal about the possibility to make the {{tem|rewrite}}, {{tem|rewrite-expand}}, and {{tem|rewrite-remove}} templates more specific. As you can see, these templates are missing some smaller text. As such, I am just wondering if there is a possibility to have the smaller text added to the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki>, <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki>, and <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> templates.
#{{User|Luigi001}} Kinda obvious why...
#{{User|Princess Grapes Butterfly}} I agree. We are and Mario Wiki a site for informantion about the Mario series and it only. We don't need codes since they have noting to do with Mario series. We are not gamespot, gamefaq or Open Code Wiki!!!
#{{User|Super-Yoshi}} - Per All.
#{{User|Luigifreak}} Wow, never noticed that. Off with the site! that has NOTHING to do with mario.
#{{User|Dom}} - Per all. (2 people working together - "TEAM POWER"... or something)
#{{User|Mateus 23}} - Per all.
#{{User|Palkia47}} - Per all, especially SR, 001, and PGB. We aren't a cheat website; we're a natural created Mario-info website.
#{{User|Leirin}} - I definitely agree, it's not professional enough to cite a cheats website. Now, it's better than some FreeWebs website, but still.


====Oppose====
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
#{{User|Walkazo}} - I don't think we should write about cheats, but I think banning the cheat ''sites'' is going about that the wrong way. A cheat site may tell a player how to get unlimited money, but it could also offer information which we '''should''' be including (i.e. unused sprites, glitches, etc.), and not doing so because of ''where'' it came from would be a mistake. Yes, there is lots of misinformation out there, but really, any fansite could perpetrate it, not just the hackers.
----
#{{User|Stumpers}} - Yeah, after the big issue I made, here I am opposing again.  I can't believe I completely forgot this issue: your definition of cheat sites isn't spelled out at all.  As we've seen below, there was much confusion over whether IGN would count as a reference.  The sensible thing to do would be to judge on a point-by-point basis whether a source was valid or not.  In the case you referred to, the obvious answer would be no, but in the cases that Walkazo presented, it'd be completely different.
<pre>
#{{user|Zafum}} - Per all.
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


====Comments====
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
Now for those who I ''know'' are going to say, "We already have a rule on this," think twice. Why would that bit of info be put on the page in the first place? And did anyone try to delete it? No, no they did not. I even tried to delete it, but a day later, there it was again! So before anyone says what I know is coming, please do think again! {{user|Luigi001}}
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
</div>
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However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>
</pre>


Since when did we write walkthrough-style articles? I thought the focus of level/world pages was general information: enemies, special items, plot line, etc.; not "Mario jumped into the third pipe to the right of the door and found a Blue Coin."-type exposition... - {{User|Walkazo}}
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
:He's means little bits of info on how to get through a level. Just look at the World articles; they say the basic way to get through a level. But still, that's not the point here. The point is whether to keep these "cheat site" resourses or not. {{User|Luigi001}}
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
::Er... You're not talking about IGN, are you? They're not ''only'' a cheat site, you know... If you're not talking about them, please tell me. :O {{User|InfectedShroom}}
</div>
:::IGN, Gamespot, 1-Up, and others can still be used as citations, as long as it's pertaining to things such as reviews or official interviews. That actual cheat part is the only thing that we want to get rid of. Also, Walkazo: Luigi001 said it just as I would have. The level/world articles explained the layout of a level, what enemies are found there, etc.; but they also explain how to get through a level. That's what I meant by "walkthrough-style". {{User|Stooben Rooben}}
----
::As the person who added the "cheat codes" in the first place and who put them back when Luigi001 removed them on the basis of looking "unprofessional," I think it's telling that I see your logic.  Now, had you just posted a message on my talk page about this issue, explaining why it looked unprofessional as you did above rather than running right to the proposal page, I would have backed right down like I am now.  Not to critique your actions, but this really was something that could have been settled "out of court" so to speak, and is the sort of thing I've handled many times before with other uses.  Anyway, I'll remove my oppose vote straight away if you address it - it's simply about an oversight I felt you made in the proposal. {{User|Stumpers}}
And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
:::Actually, I was going to. But I got kind of nervous and went to ask Stooben on his opinion. He said he agreed with my case, and we should make a proposal so '''everyone''' is clear we don't want these sources. Who's to say that another user wouldn't add it again after you and only you backed out from it? So this proposal is completely necessary. {{User|Luigi001}}
----
::::Gotcha.  For future reference, you should never feel nervous to criticize my work.  There's always the possibility I'll argue back until a solution is reached (I wouldn't have in this case), but it's surprising how many people on this Wiki place the good of it above what they've already written.  In any case, I hope I'm not giving off an intimidating vibe!  I'm always for what you're striving for: writing down an unwritten rule of the Wiki, but this proposal is placing so much emphasis on the inclusion of that one blog post that I put up.  You guys are against, "cheat sites," like the one I posted, according to the proposal.  However, the "cheat site" in question was actually a '''blog'''.  Obviously, you aren't talking about "blogs" but that's what you're saying by targeting this one instance of a "cheat site," which happens to be the first we've had in ages.  By all means make a proposal about this issue, but please, for future reference, targeting one instance makes the user who's edit is being brought into question feel threatened and more importantly takes away from your aims. Please clarify this for me: this is what I ''assume'' you want, but what isn't necessarily written. (1) Rather than "cheat sites" (which would include IGN), you want to stop people from writing about hacks, cheats, mods, etc. (2) You are not against in-game, official cheat codes that expand gameplay, but you would be against posting a code intended to let players continue their games.  (3) The issue is not with my one edit, but rather the philosophy that people could possibly derive from that edit: that cheats are acceptable to post on this site. {{User|Stumpers}}
<pre>
:::::Yup. No, no, it's not you at all. I just was never the "personal debate" type! :P Well, you basically hit our achievements from this proposal right on the dot; We are against using cheat sites (or Blogs with cheats!) for resources on the Wiki. It looks very unprofessional, and well, that's not good for a Wiki attempting to be serious on a ''video game series''. Offical cheats for the games are fine, but all others should be excluded. The game SimCity DS, not saying we have in article of it, is a prime example. The game has official "codes," if you will, to unlock landmarks. Because these were intentionally in the game, they'd be fine to mention. However, a cheat to get unlimited money or something should be excluded, as it isn't offically given in the game. And yes, as odd as it may seem, we can never know that with this one edit posted, many others will feel the right to link to IGN's cheats, or another site along those lines. As I've said, it's unprofessional looking and such. This proposal is just to see that all agree to "lay down the law" of no use of cheat site resources. Wait...did that make sense? {{user|Luigi001}}
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
::::I'd like to apologize for Stumpers if he thought that we were directing this proposal directly to him; that was not the case. I've noticed this problem since I've been here, but I always tried to revert the citations. Actually, I recall using IGN cheats as a citation at one point, but I realized that it wasn't official. The proposal is only directed to banning using unofficial cheat sites for references. If say, Nintendo were to release official cheats on one of their official sites, then it would be fine to use it as a citation/reference. Sites such as Gamespot, IGN, 1-Up, and others contain cheats from unofficial sources &ndash; random members who add cheats. Half of them are hoaxes. This is the only point of the proposal. {{User|Stooben Rooben}}
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
::Stooben and Luigi: thanks for such calm, sensible answers.  Since the point has now been clarified, I'm fine with removing my oppose. {{User|Stumpers}}
</div>
:::Well, now that you're opposing again, let me ask this: How do you know the glitches, sprites, and such are ''real''? I mean, as Stooben has said, half of those are random people posting hoax information. If the glitches or what not were real, don't you think a more reliable source would show them? I take this example from my own life, because when I loved [[Super Mario Sunshine]], I really wanted to find more about it. So I came across cheat/glitch sites like IGN or GameSpot, and several glitches were just bad hoaxes. I remember one saying "Use the Rocket Nozzle to blast up and off of the Blue Coin Building, and you'll find a glitched version of it in mid-air." Now, is that really believable? So maybe if you fhnd an interesting "fact" on one of these sites, check other, more official ones to see if it's true. I'm not saying cheat sites are always stuffed with fake info, just that there are more reliable sites out there. {{user|Luigi001}}
</pre>
::::Well it best to test them to see if they're real. {{User|Princess Grapes Butterfly}}
:::::'''To Stumpers''': Well, what we're targeting here is the banning of user-submitted cheats. By this, I mean that on sites such as IGN and Gamestop, there are many members that randomly submit cheats. Using IGN or Gamestop or whatever as a reference is fine for matters such as reviews, images, or other information. Nintendo has been known to reveal cheats, but they are rarely seen. Whenever a cheat handed out by Nintendo is seen, it will almost always say something along the lines of "submitted by Nintendo". User-submitted cheats always say "submitted by <insert user here>". '''Grapes''': That's a very good point, but sometimes cheats are very hard to pull off, people may not have the game, etc. {{User|Stooben Rooben}}
::::::Um don't you mean glitches?{{User|Princess Grapes Butterfly}}
:::::No, this proposal isn't targeting glitches. Glitches aren't seen very often on gaming guides, and even when they are, I don't recall ever seeing them used as a citation. {{User|Stooben Rooben}} 15:31, 16 November 2008 (EST)
:::Si! I know but you said cheat were hard to pull off? {{User|Princess Grapes Butterfly}}
::::Yes, sometimes they can be. Like in ''Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour'', there's a cheat in [[Peach's Castle Grounds]] where you can get a hole in one on a PAR 5 course, but it's very hard to do. {{User|Stooben Rooben}}


===''List of Quotes'' Pages===
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
</div>
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However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
</pre>


I honestly don't care what people say this time - I'm just going to say this to attract attention to an important issue: The "List of Quotes" pages on this Wiki (type that in the Search bar and find these articles), are quite <s> bad </s> awful. Some say 'Under Construction' yet they are left untouched in a barely completed state... some pages such as the Mario Kart series quotes, have pathetic "quotes" such as "Hi!", "Okay!", "Bop!", etc - you call them quotes? I would barely even count them as words. Now, if you happen to be a User who has actually worked on these barren wastelands called articles, then please do not assume I am insulting you. It is not your fault. It's the fact that hardly anyone cares enough about these pages to even make them be of an acceptable standard for a Wiki. So my aim with this Proposal is to draw attention to the issue, and make people think about the ares of this Wiki that really need work.
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
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Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
</div>
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However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s):{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
</pre>


'''Proposer:''' {{User|Dom}}<br>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
'''Deadline:''' November 27, 2008, 17:00
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
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That will be a perfect idea to make the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations as more specific as the {{tem|media missing}} and {{tem|unreferenced}} templates. That way, we'll be able to add smaller text to the remaining [[:Category:Notice templates|notice templates]] in the future.


'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
{{User|Dom}} - Per Dom.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
This means you either don't like me, or have reasons which you must explain clearly why you disagree.
#{{User|Altendo}} As far as I can tell, the proposal that was linked added parameters that allowed what was supposed to be referenced to be referenced. This one simply adds a subtitle to the bottom of each template. "Be more specific" does not mean saying general information and helpful links, but rather exactly what needs to be done; in terms of that, the existing templates not only all already have parameters, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|filling them out is enforced]]. As [[User:Nightwicked Bowser|Nightwicked Bowser]] said, "Be more specific - Similar to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|this proposal]], what exactly needs references must be specified in the template when putting it in the article. A parameter for this will still need to be added." This only adds a subtitle and does not make this "more specific". As for the changes, this is actually harmful in some way, as the <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> tag will be added to the subtitle, rather than the main body, which could make it more confusing in my opinion. Feel free to update this and add in what "more specific" actually means, or just change this to "add subtitles" and change the location of <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> to the main body, but until then, my vote is staying here.
 
====Comments====
 
Here's how I would fix some things:
 
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
</div>
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However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
</div>
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And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
</pre>


#{{User|Princess Grapes Butterfly}} Your making a proposal so users can edit that page more and make it look better. Well I think you don't need a proposal for it because user can do that with or without this proposal. So what if it the List of Quotes starts out small, soon users (New and Old) might add more quotes to it. It start out small and have a little bit of quotes (Like the New Userpedia) then it will eventully grow having more quotes.(P.S I just disagree with your proposal.) Here a better example [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_Quotes_in_Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door&diff=370929&oldid=370926 Click here] It started of small but now look at it  [[List of Quotes in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]].
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
#{{User|Stumpers}} - We aren't voting on anything with this proposal.  So, if it passes, attention is brought to the issue.  If it doesn't, attention is still brought to this issue.  Please add something about what you want accomplished or changed.
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per all. We're already striving to improve the Lists of Quotes, and there was a sucessful proposal about removing pointless things like "Hi" a few months ago. As I've said before, this should be a [[MarioWiki:List_of_PipeProjects|PipeProject]] pitch, not a Proposal.
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Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


====Comments====
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed''' {{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reasons:{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
</pre>


BTW, Time Q (a Sysop) has my back as he suggested I restart the whole Proposal. I'd like to see his opinion of my new one here. Oh, and I'm not sure about the deadline being correct. {{User|Dom}}
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It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s):<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
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Walkazo that is a really great idea! And Dom, Stumpers right we aren't really voting for any thing. {{User|Princess Grapes Butterfly}}
This should fix some things, and I also recommend you change the title or at least context of this proposal. If so, then I might change my vote. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 19:58, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:I {{plain link|https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&diff=prev&oldid=4457576|fixed this problem}} for you. How does it look? {{User:GuntherBayBeee/sig}} 09:40, December 10, 2024 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 09:45, December 14, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Sunday, December 15th, 22:31 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  2. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  3. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  8. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  14. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  15. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  16. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  17. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  18. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  19. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  20. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

Below is an example of what your proposal must look like. If you are unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. When updating the bracketed variables with actual information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 14 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "August 8, 2011, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[add your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), Technetium (ended November 30, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Split and trim the Vine article, Nintendo101 (ended December 14, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

A reconsidering of "derived names"

This proposal acts as a counter to the proposal Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages. In short, to a casual reader like myself, subjects being named Disaster Neko, Comet Tico, Wonder Haiden, and Kodeka Kakibō are extremely unhelpful when English names for them seem trivial. Many subjects in the Mario franchise use a very consistent naming scheme: [A descriptor for this specific subject, usually an adjective] [very standardized name]. If something is officially called Wonder Packun, and is a Packun(or Piranha Plant) which have variants consistently named "X Packun" in Japanese and "X Piranha Plant" in English, then it feels pedantic to not call it a Wonder Piranha Plant.

The proposed change here would be to allow derived names to take precedent over internal and foreign names when those derived names are built upon a strong enough foundation, on a case-by-case basis. Derivations should be based on actual official English localizations or already use English words to begin with. If there isn't precedent for each aspect of the name, then it should remain in its source language. Examples:

  • Fire Gabon: "Fire X" is a well established format, see Fire Bro (Faia Burosu) and Fire Piranha Plant (Faia Pakkun). "X Spike" is also well established, see Paper Spike (Pēpā Gabon) and Stone Spike (Rokku Gabon). Therefore, Faia Gabon would be interpreted as Fire Spike.
  • Comet Tico: "Comet" is already an English term used frequently in Super Mario Galaxy, and Prankster Comets are directly connected to the Comet Tico. "X Luma" is a very consistent formatting of names in SMG, see Hungry Luma (TicoFat internally) and Co-Star Luma (SupportTico intermally). TicoComet can therefore be interpreted as Comet Luma.
  • Yarikuri Obake: "Yarikuri" is officially localized as Pirate Goom, however it is never given any descriptors in English and "Obake" does not have a standardized localization, especially not one for Wario Land 3. This name would remain in Japanese.
  • Hanabihei (assuming its official English name was never revealed): "Hanabihei" is derived from "Bombhei", but is a portmanteau and not a trivial descriptive name. It would remain as-is.

The positives of this proposal if it were to pass would be that related subjects would be intuitive as to how they relate. Just by reading the names, you would be able to tell that Hoppycat, Wonder Hoppycat, and Big Hoppycat are related, and what that relationship is.

Edit: Several users have expressed the sentiment that our current names are already somewhat derivative. Fire Gabon is not the name of the subject in Japanese, but rather Faia Gabon. Similarly, Informant Mūcho is derived from the filename B4_Informant_MUC. Thusly, a new option is provided to propose to stop this form of derived names as well. Names like Comet Tico would be moved to "TicoComet", and Informant Mūcho moved to "Informant_MUC" or "Informant".

Edit 2: LinkTheLefty has very reasonably pointed out that the wiki has existing, consistent guidelines on how to write Japanese names with English loanwords, meaning Fire Gabon should not be written as Faia Gabon. I have altered the second option in accordance. If it passes, Japanese names will not have their spellings changed, but names derived from development data will still be made more direct. In hindsight, it probably wasn't a good idea, articles called Sūpābо̄rū Mario or Sūpā Mario Kāto Doki Doki Rēsu would probably be rather obtrusive.

Proposer: PopitTart (talk)
Deadline: December 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Allow fully derived names (Fire Spike, Informant Snifit)

  1. PopitTart (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Technetium (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Hooded Pitohui (talk) Per proposal.
  4. Scrooge200 (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Fun With Despair (talk) Per proposal. Since I started browsing this wiki as a kid, I had always thought the use of foreign language names were nonsensical when it was obvious what they should be - especially in cases like those cited in the proposal. "Neko" just means literally "Cat" in Japanese. It is likewise reasonable, as stated, to amend enemy names to their English counterpart in cases like "Fire Gabon", etc. In the previous vote to repeal this, Koopa con Carne (talk) stated that you shouldn't ignore an official name to make up a "wacky" name instead. I don't believe this to be a good faith argument in this case. Nobody is making anything up. If Gabon in English is Spike, then there is absolutely no conjecture with regards to applying that moniker to Fire Gabon - nor is there conjecture with regards to what replacing Disaster Neko with Disaster Cat in an instance where the normal version of these entities is just called "Kitten" in English, a direct translation from the respective Japanese name.
  6. Ninelevendo (talk) Per proposal.
  7. Shoey (talk) Per proposal.
  8. Turboo (talk) Per proposal.
  9. Meta Knight (talk) It just makes more sense.
  10. Lakituthequick (talk) Per all.
  11. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) Per proposal.
  12. Cheat-master30 (talk) Per all.
  13. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
  14. winstein (talk) I think this is a good idea, so I agree with it.
  15. Roserade (talk) I have been keeping with this proposal and reading the arguments of the opposition, and while I understand where they're founded, I remain fairly unconvinced by them. I believe that this proposal is pointing towards reputable translation as the source of these names, with names like "Fire Spike" being based upon a) well-established patterns in translation and b) clear visual indication of what the thing is. To argue that translating directly like this is "making stuff up" feels to me like a bad-faith argument. I feel like we can reasonably deduce what a translation should be if we have the valid evidencing for it - which PopitTart indicates as the aim in this proposal. And if a localization eventually rolls around, and it's a different name than what we're using? We change it, which is already what we'd do in the case of a Japanese article name anyway. Updating information is not hard, if it becomes necessary. Ultimately, our aim as a fan wiki should be accessibility of its userbase, and straightforward translation work is one of the ways to make these articles more accessible. Also, I'm sure it's more of an aside than a fully-fledged argument, but "regret the next encyclopedia event" is a silly argument. It's not our responsibility to ensure that nobody in a formal publishing house opts to plagiarize the wiki again.
  16. MCD (talk) Per all, especially Roserade & FWD.
  17. Ninja Squid (talk) Per all.
  18. Tails777 (talk) The Disaster Neko and Fire Gabon examples are the ones that are ALWAYS on my mind when I think of this. Per Fun with Despair and Roserade especially.
  19. Reese Rivers (talk) Per all.
  20. Pseudo (talk) Though I'm somewhat hesitant because I do perceive the opposition's stated disadvantages of doing this (particularly those mentioned by Nintendo101), I'm inclined to support this especially because of the argument raised by Lady Sophie and Exiled.Serenity's comments — that the wiki already does do this sort of name-deriving with examples like Comet Tico, Dark Nokonoko, and Fire Gabon, none of which exactly match the form seen in the game files. If we're comfortable adopting slightly derived names—and they are derived names—in order to make the wiki more readable, which I personally am, then I see little reason not to translate well-established names like Tico, Nokonoko, and Gabon, which have already been localized to English time after time. Perhaps the enemy's name will not turn out to be "Fire Spike" when it reappears with an officially-localized name, but we can simply acknowledge that as a wiki when the time comes. Frankly, acknowledging partially derived names like these three with a notice template arguably provides greater clarity than what the wiki is currently doing, claiming that the enemy's datamined name is Dark Nokonoko, rather than NokonokoDark, the only official "English" name that actually exists.
  21. Cadrega86 (talk) Per proposal and Pseudo.
  22. Exiled.Serenity (talk) Per my comments below, and Pseudo. This is my preferred option— I think it is only "making stuff up" in the strictest possible sense. A far cry from calling him "Sizzle-Spikey!" or whatever. I also appreciate the proposal's restraint in this regard, choosing to only allow this when there's so much evidence for a given name that we'd just as easily be giving an inaccurate impression by not using it.
  23. Dainn (talk) Per all. Wonder Haiden bothered me deeply when I first saw it.
  24. Seandwalsh (talk) Per proposal.
  25. DesaMatt (talk) This website is not Nintendo, will never be Nintendo, and needs to stop pretending otherwise. MarioWiki is fan site managed by fans and directed at fans. It's not an official source for anything and it's inherently not unbiased, the closest it could ever come to that is if it was simply a collection of copied and pasted official text released by Nintendo, but it's not, the vast majority of the content here is original text written by fans that is only based on the official content that is presented to us. Why is it bad to call Fire Spike by that name term when everyone can agree that's what they are but it's not bad to describe anything using words that were never used by Nintendo at all? I'm not advocating for fan anarchy, but MarioWiki is meant to be an English website and it doesn't serve that purpose to use foreign words and terms that the people accessing it are not expected to be familiar with when there are obvious agreed-upon English alternatives.
  26. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
  27. Rykitu (talk) Per all. Especially Fun With Dispair and Meta Knight.

Stop derived development data names (Fire Gabon, Informant_MUC)

  1. MCD (talk) Not my first choice but per my comment below. What we have now is essentially a mish-mash of different sources of derivation, this is better than that at least.
  2. Sparks (talk) Agreed.
  3. PopitTart (talk) Second choice, Per MCD. If we can't do fully derived names, then we shouldn't do arbitrary partial ones.
  4. Hewer (talk) Second choice, I'll take this over the first option.
  5. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per... Hewer, I guess? Voting mostly to the detriment of the first option.
  6. Ahemtoday (talk) Honestly, I'm not even sure this is my second choice or not — I'm willing to go a long way in the name of consistency.
  7. Tails777 (talk) Secondary choice. I'd rather lean one way or the other than have a messy in between. At least with this, it makes more sense than allowing the word "Fire" to be translated from "Fire Gabon" and not "Gabon".
  8. Pseudo (talk) Secondary choice per Tails777, and per the sentiment expressed in my vote for the option 1. The current situation is a bad middle ground. This might become my primary vote in the future, but I need to think about it more.
  9. Exiled.Serenity (talk) My second choice. It's at least consistent.
  10. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - This I can agree with, the guessing of word order for file names always bugged me. Granted, it'd look odd in the prose, but there are ways around it (for instance, "Informant_MUC is the internal designation of a Snifit in Paper Mario: Color Splash. The Snifit is found...")
  11. FanOfYoshi (talk) As counterproductive/problematic as the proposal itself is, i suppose this could be an alternative (even if this option might get counterproductive in certain areas too)
  12. TPG (talk) After careful consideration and reading the comments of this proposal, I think this is the most acceptable option. Ultimately it is not the wiki's responsibility to localise names on Nintendo's behalf, and even though it IS common sense to call it 'Fire Spike', or 'Wonder Hoppycat', no official source has used that name yet. Perhaps down the line this more strict position on deriving names will lead to a more acceptable naming guideline that allows us to state the obvious, but it isn't on us to make up names. I don't think this is the best way to deal with conjecture, but I'll leave that thought in the comments.

Do nothing (Fire Gabon, Informant Mūcho)

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - This remains speculative. They could just as easily call it Flame Spike (Flame Chomp exists, after all, having been renamed from Fire Chomp) or Fireball Spike. Also, see the Goombud and Clubba examples below.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per the previous proposal that got rid of these names. It's still conjecture no matter how much we pretend it's not, and I'd rather stick to what's official. In response to the argument that Japanese names confuse or are unhelpful to readers, I'd argue that using fan names over official ones is misleading readers, which is much worse. We're here to report what the facts are, not what we want them to be. Also, variant relationships don't always have to be obvious from the name (you'd never guess from the name alone that Bandit is a Shy Guy variant, for example).
  3. Koopa con Carne (talk) No. Making up a name for a thing that has an official name is not what the wiki is about, and if you think the official name is less intuitive than the alternative, there's this nifty feature called "redirects" that doesn't tamper with official concepts. If you think that argument is in bad faith, then you misunderstood the mission of this site.
  4. Nintendo101 (talk) I think Popitart created a solid proposal, and I understand why it has garnered support. However, I believe the burden on having these names revised to something more suitable and consistent with the English localization is on the publisher. Not us. One of the things that has made Super Mario Wiki stronger reference material than many other wikis is our naming policy. I view it as a concentrated effort to avoid citogenesis, descriptivism, and manufactured consensus, which is especially important considering Nintendo themselves clearly consult this site on occasion and sometimes incorporate our interpretations of the text, including incorrect interpretations. It is clear we are the primary reference for in-depth Super Mario information on the internet and for the general public, and likely will remain so for years to come. I would like us to remain reliable and neutral for them. Does "Comet Tico" look silly next to "Hungry Luma?" Yes, it does. Does it not mean "Comet Luma?" Yes. But I do not think that is something for us to solve, and I suspect most readers will intuitively understand this means the subject has not been given an English name yet. I don't think that is a big deal. I think a bigger deal would be to, say, see it named "Comet Luma" on the Super Mario Galaxy article and assume that is its name. In my view, that is not really true, but presenting it as such can lead to misinformation being spread. I understand and respect those who feel differently, but that is generally how I feel at this time.
  5. LinkTheLefty (talk) How about we not do this again and regret it when the next encyclopedia event happens? We've never been one of those sites that gets a dopamine rush over "canonizing" stuff. On the contrary, we have a responsibility to step back and give the translators breathing room to do their thing when they get their chance without fears of stifling their freedom and being compared to the fans all the time. Per all the opposition, past and current.
  6. Axii (talk) ^
  7. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Doc and Nintendo101.
  8. Sparks (talk) While it is tempting to just replace the Japanese name with its English equivalent, we don't know for sure if that is what the English translation actually is (or will be). While Fire Spike and Wonder Hoppycat seem to be obvious names for the enemies, what if they're not their official names? We have concrete evidence right now; it's just not English, but having an official name in Japanese is better than making up an English one.
  9. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all; no comment needed, since you may already know where i stand.
  10. Super Mario RPG (talk) I see no reason to change this that doesn't involve appealing to the fact that this is an English wiki.
  11. Camwoodstock (talk) We're gonna be honest here, neither of the other options really appeal to us. We understand the concerns with citogenesis that caused the previous proposal to fail, so we won't really go over that. But the "we should use derived names exactly as they are written in the source" is... Well, to put it bluntly here, more than a little asinine. Where exactly are we drawing the line, here? The provided examples in the proposal keep the camelcase in TicoComet and that B4_Informant_MUC would be moved to Informant_MUC; who's calling what's the "unnecessary" parts we omit here? Do we just include them all? If it's the latter, be honest with yourself; would the wiki be better off if we had an article called cg_data-character-p0242_peach_doll? If it's the former, how do we plan to trim down a sentence on the Watering hole article like "They consistently spew water into a small basin, allowing Mario to swallow some and turn into STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI."? We have so, so many questions, and unfortunately, next to no answers here. Above all else, we don't really feel comfortable going forward with a proposal that, as others have pointed out, has felt rather wishy-washy for something as drastic as a change to our article naming guidelines.
  12. DryBonesBandit (talk) Well, just because something can be translated as something else, doesn't mean it has been by Nintendo. Per all.
  13. SmokedChili (talk) Both options are terrible, per opposition, but I'm gotta say this about internal names. Currently, what we use for page titles for subjects where game file data is the best we have are formatted from said file data - in other words, we already conjecturally derive page titles for those subjects from internal names even if it's just adding a space. That's why I think if we're going to keep that line with internal names, they should lose their status as official names and be considered conjectural instead if they are formatted. This would not affect cases like Marimba Block where said name appears as-is afaik.
  14. Mister Wu (talk) Open to review the guidelines on how to use internal names that aren’t a single word, but in my opinion we really need more discussion over them rather than just having to choose between two options, to see how many impractical consequences we can have with the various choices. As far as subjects for which we just have the Japanese names are concerned, I think that in the long term simplicity and avoidance of arbitrary criteria in the guidelines is more helpful for the editors - even though it can be frustrating to see some obvious translations untranslated. In the worst case scenario of no valid English name being found, we end up using valid Japanese names written with criteria as similar as possible to those of the official romanization, that can pop up every now and then.
  15. Arend (talk) Kinda torn between this option and the first one; I'm picking this one for now since it's the lesser-voted one. Either option are more preferable to me over the second option in which we have to use the actual internal filenames instead of names derived from said filenames, which I feel would stand out really awkwardly among the actual confirmed names.
  16. TheFlameChomp (talk) I was originally writing a vote for the second option, though after thinking about it, I have decided to land here for now. Unlike some of the opposition, I would be open to changing how we handle names like this, and I do believe that, from a reader’s perspective, a name like “Fire Spike” makes more sense than “Fire Gabon”. However, I also agree with some of the opposition’s concerns such as citogenesis, the fact that some translations could come across as subjective, and the fact that it should not be up to us to localize names on Nintendo’s behalf, leading me to choose against the first option. However, I realized while considering option 2 that directly naming articles from their file names would also be messy and difficult to search if readers were not aware of what a particular file name was associated with to begin with. As such, I am voting to keep the current names, though I would recommend keeping this issue open for future discussion as I am still not sure that how we handle the situation is the perfect method.
  17. JanMisali (talk) Per all.
  18. Lastro (talk) Per all. This is the Super Mario Wiki, not Fantendo. We aren't supposed to make names up, even if it consists of "obviously" translating a single word. Besides, the current name derivation process only consists of rearranging words from an internal name without changing the language. Translation is tricky and we have no rights to name creations we didn't make.

Comments

@Doc von Schmeltwick: the decision to go with Fire Spike over Flame Spike or others is based on both its behavior as well as how the "fire" prefix is translated from Japanese; Faia Gabon is a Spike that attacks with fireballs, as opposed to being made of fire or such. This is in-line with the given examples, as well as Fire Nipper Plant and Fire Mario, which all have the same "faia X" naming in Japanese. Flame Chomp however is named "Keronpa" in Japanese, and thus isn't suitable as a point of comparison. --PopitTart (talk) 02:44, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I have found better examples: Fire Heihō is known as Pyro Guy in English (not as "Fire Shy Guy") and Fire Mūcho is known as Scorchit (not as "Fire Snifit"). Jdtendo(T|C) 07:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I don't see the point debating Fire Spike anyway when the internal name specifically uses the word "Fire". --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:02, December 5, 2024 (EST)
But it does not specifically use the word "Spike". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:06, December 5, 2024 (EST)
The specific point being addressed here is Doc's vote, which was questioning using "Fire". --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:12, December 5, 2024 (EST)
As Jdtendo demonstrated, the Japanese name being "Fire [enemy]" doesn't mean the English name will be "Fire [enemy]". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
There are indeed cases where "faia" is translated as something other than "fire", but these appear to be used for enemies which use fire in a way distinct from the classic fireball projectile. In combination with the Fire Gabon's behavior matching the subjects which are translated that way, I believe "fire" to be the best option. --PopitTart (talk) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
And that's just your subjective assessment. We have no idea if the official translators would agree, and for all we know, they could have completely different criteria to determine what gets called "Fire" and what doesn't. (For what it's worth, "Fire Spike"'s fireballs fly in a straight line through the air, so they are actually quite functionally different from those of Fire Mario or Fire Bro, which bounce along the ground, and Spike's other variants, Snow Spike and Stone Spike, do not follow any pre-established enemy variant naming patterns as far as I know.) Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I have not decided if I'd like to support this proposal yet but I feel like, as it is an English website, if the Mario Wiki shouldn't effectively create nicknames for subjects without official English names, it should not be arbitrarily applying names in other languages to those same subjects. The English name for the Fire variant of a Spike is not called Fire Gabon and I think it is erroneous to refer to it as such in English text. if citogenesis is an issue, then using foreign and internal names runs the exact same risk as using a conjectural name. Just look at Lumacomète in the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 08:18, December 5, 2024 (EST)

Additionally, according to the Wiki's rules on Japanese, "words that originated in English should be written as the original English word for simplicity", which means technically we're already not accurately representing the subject's Japanese name. The Fire variant of a Spike is not called Fire Gabon in English, and it's not called Fire Gabon in Japanese. if the jump from Faia to Fire is allowed, then why not from Gabon to Spike? We're already isolating and translating Japanese words in a vaccuum.— Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 08:32, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I concur with this standpoint. I will keep supporting this proposal in its current state, but I would support changing all adjectives back to Japanese if it fails. It's really a case of all-or-nothing to me, currently it is quite half-baked. (It could be considered to add that as a separate option if more people feel this way.) Lakituthequick.png Lakituthequick 14:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Should I add this as a third option, then? It has only been 1 day, well within the editing timeframe. --PopitTart (talk) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I think the difference is that the word "fire" is a loanword or gairaigo, so it is not really being translated. "Gabon" is not. — Nintendo101 (talk) 09:58, December 5, 2024 (EST)
How is the wiki's usage of foreign names "arbitrary"? They are used when no official English name is known to exist. This wiki may be written in English, but it's about a primarily Japanese franchise and covers subjects that never officially existed in English at all, so it's no surprise that not everything has an English name to use. What would be arbitrary is deciding not to use the subject's only official name because we think we can make up a better one. Also, this proposal isn't suggesting to stop using foreign names entirely, so we would still be using non-English names in our English text regardless. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:48, December 5, 2024 (EST)

@Nintendo101 First, I want to acknowledge that you've put together a very articulate, well-considered case for your opposition. Though we disagree, I understand well your point of view, and I find your concerns over citogenesis in particular to be a very worthwhile consideration. There is one point in your position on which I would like to seek clarification, though. You say, "I think a bigger deal would be to, say, see it named "Comet Luma" on the Super Mario Galaxy article and assume that is its name." Would that not be adequately addressed by use of the conjectural name template, which includes an argument specifically for derived names? I am earnestly curious as to why the template, as a clear and difficult-to-miss disclaimer that the name is derived and not an official localization, does not adequately address this point in your view. Hooded Pitohui (talk) 08:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)

Howdy! For starters, I do think a template header would be mitigating and I am glad it is incorporated into this proposal. That was good foresight. However, the systemic effectiveness of these templates is dependent on readers going to the articles for Fire Gabon or Comet Tico specifically, and I am not sure how often they would feel compelled to do that if these names "look" like official localizations. Someone visiting the site to read articles on the games themselves or levels may not feel compelled to check, and precisely because of their similarly to proper localizations, may just assume "Comet Luma" is its true localized name. Anecdotally, I feel like I have heard conjectural names justifiably adopted by our wiki for lack of better alternatives uncritically presented as the names off of the site and I think that is partially why. They look like properly localized English names, so why would one assume they are not? I have not seen that as often for subjects with Romanized Japanese titles, and I suspect that is because they also look the part. Maybe if there was some sort of in-text template similar to "conjectural" to embed directly into game or level articles that would help, but that also sounds a bit cumbersome. - Nintendo101 (talk) 08:44, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Thank you so much for your response! Knowing this is coming from a position of concerns that readers will pass over the disclaimer by not actually visiting the page in question and will instead assume these names are official at a glance certainly does clarify that point. I do think you have the right of it that it would be cumbersome to mitigate this concern with the tools available to us. My first thought is perhaps we could use the tooltip text to address this by putting "derived name" in the tooltip text for these names on game pages and such, and if the proposal does pass, I think it would be worthwhile to consider using it. That said, as far as I know, you can't see that text on mobile, so I recognize this wouldn't be a perfect solution. Hooded Pitohui (talk) 08:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Honestly, I'd rather not make a distinction between "conjectural" names and "derived" names at all. They're both names made up by the wiki in an attempt to be as straightforward as possible, the only difference being that "derived" names could be taking priority over official names, yet templates for "derived" names give the misleading impression that they are more official than "conjectural" names. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Or we can cut out the ten middlemen altogether and use much more efficient redirect system. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:11, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I feel like at a certain point, we can only do so much. We put templates on all the pages that are plain to see. If an Encyclopedia writer ignores it, how is that our fault? And like LadySophie17 said above, they used a French name for an English book - I don't see why using a name from another language, albeit official, eliminates the issue. It's their responsibility to appropriately localize names, not ours. And in this case, I think reader understandability comes first - after all, we are a site for the fans. Those writers shouldn't be looking at a wiki for research to begin with. If another Encyclopedia is written, I can only hope they learned from their mistakes with the original, and not use the wiki as a source. Technetium (talk) 09:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I am also aware I did that proposal to rename X-Ship to X-Naut ship, as the former felt too official of a name despite being marked as conjectural. This just feels like a different situation altogether for me, given that these conjectural English names for enemies aren't all fancy or anything, but very straight to the point. I agree with Hooded Pitohui's comment above that we could also mark these as being derived names on other pages they appear, not just the main articles on them. Technetium (talk) 09:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I understand your perspective, but part of the reason why we have maintained so many name-specific article templates in the first place was as a response to that encyclopedia and there has been a general reduction in conjectural names that was also in response to it. Besides, it is not just third-party editors I am thinking of — I am thinking of fans. Our general userbase. I do not want us to passively misinform them or imply names have some sort of community consensus when they do not. I know that is something I would have appreciated before I became more involved with editing the site, because I want to be informed and learn before anything else. - Nintendo101 (talk) 10:13, December 5, 2024 (EST)
You make good points. I'm not fully sure what to think myself honestly - as I said in my first edit summary for this today, those were simply my thoughts at the moment. I'll continue thinking about this as more comments are made and change my vote if my mind changes. Technetium (talk) 10:17, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Let's not pretend that Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia was an isolated case. It was only notable for its sheer sloppiness and scale. In actuality, we've seen similar things happen time and time again. Prima. Piranha Plant guidance. Dates. Don't get me started on Art & Artifacts and Zelda Encyclopedia. This is a new constant of our interconnected reality, for better or worse, and it's something that both pros and fans have to thread carefully. Sure, no doubt coincidences happen. If that makes us feel better, we can chalk things up to coincidences. But sometimes, you can't help but smell something fishy, and in the aftermath, you wonder how preventable it was if the leash was held just a little tighter...like Croaka-Cola. That mysterious leftover hyphen made me do a massive double-take because I have a distinct suspicion on its origin (no, I will not elaborate here, but if you know, you know). Considering Nintendo/Localsoft drama was reported sometime after the Super Mario RPG remake, and other strangeness like this top-left retranslated text-bubble and all the other in-game languages looking an awful lot like varying degrees of a master Japanese/English merged script, I've had this bad feeling that the scope of the official translators' fantastic work was extremely fragile, and that tears me up. But I digress; even if I find out I'm correct, I don't think the wiki's to blame. But it does show that we have the power to take a higher road less traveled, and for that, I strongly believe that the current restrictive system must be the lesser evil. Sorry if that sounds dramatic, but my honest fear is that the alternative would not be good in the long run, well-intentioned or not. If more fan-content cross-contamination controversies arise, don't tell me I didn't warn you. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:45, December 5, 2024 (EST)

Oh, and also - what about dev data names like Informant Mūcho? Would those be affected by this proposal? I remember a discussion on this informant guy specifically on Discord leading into the discussion that lead to this proposal. Technetium (talk) 10:03, December 5, 2024 (EST)

Yes, the proposal states that it would "allow derived names to take precedent over internal and foreign names when those derived names are built upon a strong enough foundation". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:25, December 5, 2024 (EST)

This should also affect Fire Robota and Beam Robota, right? Their counterpart Yari Robota is the only one with a confirmed English name (Spear-bot) thanks to the Wario Land 3 manual. So in this case they would've been "Fire-bot" and "Beam-bot" respectively. Winstein (talk) 12:32, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I'd say that's too much of a stretch, isn't the point to only use these names when every part of them can be "derived" from other official names? "Fire" variants would usually (not always) be "Fire Enemy", not "Fire-enemy", and I don't know of any precedent for the naming of "Beam" variants. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
As Hewer says, the elements making up those names and how they are localized into English do not have much data backing them up, as well as "Spear-bot" being somewhat of a portmantau rather than the standard "descriptor proper-name", and wouldn't make a clear consensus. --PopitTart (talk) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)

@Roserade: The point isn't that the translation is bad, but that we shouldn't be the ones translating it, we should be providing the official names as they are. "Reasonably deducing what a translation should be" is not what the wiki is for (and "should" is also unavoidably subjective). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)

Also,
"Ultimately, our aim as a fan wiki should be accessibility of its userbase"
No, our ultimate aim is to provide information about the subject matter that is as close to truth as possible. Or in the absence of something that can be deemed "truth", a consensus from the ones who handle the franchise. I'm kinda over this whole idea that accessibility comes at the cost of veracity and accuracy. Supper Mario Broth would be disappointed in us. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:20, December 5, 2024 (EST), edited 13:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Mostly towards KCC: I firmly hold that our ultimate aim should be accessibility. This is why we adjust literally anything on the wiki - table layouts, redirects, etc. If our purpose was just glossary, we'd be doing nothing but creating bulleted lists. Explicit or not, we are always aiming to create a space that best facilitates the accessing of information - and I feel that some of our delineations of what is a "valid" name or not stands in contrast to this aim. I'm noticing that you're using the language of is instead of should, and I just want to say that I'm sorry my vision of this website varies in some ways from yours, but I think other interpretations of what this site is aiming to do are just as valid as this "purely objective" one, especially when changes are community-headed. I feel like I'm arguing into a theoretical circle that isn't leading me anywhere as I type, but I hope my feelings are clear. I don't think using the mountain of evidence to determine why "Fire Spike" is an acceptable name is doing anything to damage the reputability or informational identity of the wiki, and it would allow our information to be more accessible at a glance. Roserade (talk) 15:51, December 5, 2024 (EST)
We are indeed aiming to create a space that best facilitates the accessing of information - official information, not fan names or information we think should be official. There's a big difference between changing the way we present information for accessibility and changing the information that we are presenting. The point of the wiki is only to present official information. I agree that Fire Spike would be a fine name for the character, but it's simply not official, so us wishing that it was does not constitute a "mountain of evidence". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:15, December 5, 2024 (EST)
You are overlapping two extremely heterogenous aspects of the wiki: the presentation of information (including but not limited to, wording, layout, aesthetics), and the information itself. Yes, it's good to have information laid out in a pretty and accessible way, not so much when that bleeds into the information itself. So much for the accusation of bad faith when you're trying to liken the opposition's perspective to "we should only have bulleted lists!!!11"
Nintendo gives us a name for a subject, we use that. It's super clear-cut and avoids Hefty Goombrat-isms as well as eluding the need of a hundred disclaimers pointing to how the name is conjectural. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:54, December 5, 2024 (EST) edited 16:56, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Not directed at Koopa con Carne or Roserade or Hewer but in general: Just stepping in here to please keep things civil, please don't construct strawmen out of the oppositions' points. Thanks. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 17:04, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I saw that "Hefty Goombrat" was mentioned derisively in the previous proposal, and I'm curious as to why that is, beyond the compromises of any derived name? Kodeka Kakibō is extremely similar in both behavior and name to Kodeka Kuribō, so it appears simple from the outside. Is it because Hefty Goomba is the only point of official localization for "Kodeka"? --PopitTart (talk) 17:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
It's a flowery name. "Wacky", if you will. It reeks of Fantendo. If you really want to give this enemy a conjectural name at the expense of the official one, just use "Big Goombrat"; not only do even bigger variants of this enemy not exist, but policy states that "When deciding on a name, the [conjectural] name must be simple yet accurate." -- KOOPA CON CARNE 18:05, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I'm not sure I agree with it being "flowery". It behaves just like and is particularly named just like the Kodeka Kuribō, so it follows that it would use the same naming scheme. Most enemies which are called "big" in English use simply "deka" in Japanese. I can understand being hesitant about using just the Hefty Goomba as reference, given this proposal hinges on the Mario franchise's tendency for consistent naming schemes. If this proposal passes, Kodeka Kakibō would probably warrant some discussion on its own. --PopitTart (talk) 18:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
That just shows how subjective the entire basis of this proposal is. You think naming it as such is logical, but that is plain and simply an opinion, and not one that will necessarily be shared. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:31, December 5, 2024 (EST)
The point I brought up here was that Kodeka Kakibō is analogous to Big Goomba in Super Mario Maker 2, Hefty Goomba in Super Mario Bros. Wonder (per the new name), and indeterminate in Super Mario Run. There is no one-size-fits-all solution in such a loony scenario. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:37, December 5, 2024 (EST)
That's starting off the assumption that the enemy in Super Mario Maker 2 is a "Kodeka Kakibō" to begin with, which, considering the equivalent Goomba enemy is officially referred to in Japanese as "Deka Kuribō", doesn't seem like a very reasonable assumption. Sure, they have the same role, but so do Maker's Big Goomba and New's Hefty Goomba. Blinker (talk) 07:35, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Exactly. The current merged article is trying to make the best out of a suboptimal situation. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
I think that it's still very key that the enemy is particularly named Kodeka Kakibō in Wonder, literally translating as "mini big Goombrat". Wonder continues to use the name Kodeka Kuribō for the Double-Sized-Goomba-That-Splits-Into-Regular-Goombas like the New Super Mario Bros. games before it, likely because of the presence of of actual Deka Kuribō that split into them. There is no such Deka Kakibō however, meaning they could have very well called the Double-Sized-Goombrat-That-Splits-Into-Regular-Goombrats a Deka Kakibō instead. Nintendo had it in mind that these two enemies were directly comparable, going so far as to give the Goombrat a name with a level of specificity (kodeka rather than just deka) it didn't need. As for how this plays into Super Mario Maker, I think it's fine to call the Double-Sized-Goombrat there a Kodeka Kuribō with a lack of evidence otherwise. It's not unheard of for enemies in Super Mario Maker to not just become "Big" when given a mushroom. --PopitTart (talk) 05:23, December 7, 2024 (EST)
Again, the problem with this is that it's all just your subjective interpretation. The fact there's even an argument to be had here about how to translate the name goes to show that it is not one of the "obvious" translations this proposal is going for. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 07:54, December 7, 2024 (EST)

Not gonna try to throw shade but while I agree with the proposal on derived names it does look odd that a large contigent of users that don't otherwise directly participate in the wiki voted, and voted in a quite short time span. Mario (Santa)'s map icon from Mario Kart Tour Mario-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 15:48, December 5, 2024 (EST)

People talk, especially in the wiki forum and the communities surrounding it, and sometimes a proposal can attract attention from veteran editors (especially when it is as interesting as this). Rare as it is, I think it's good that users with a long history of wiki contribution can still lend their opinion, even if they aren't currently active. UserPyroGuy.png (T · C) 16:19, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Wasn't there a hard rule against proposal soliciting? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Discussing a proposal before posting it doesn't necessarily involve solicitation, as long as no one is asked to vote. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 16:31, December 5, 2024 (EST)
There is a key difference between soliciting votes and simply bringing up a proposal to discuss it (the latter is what happened, of course). Everyone here is voting independently based on the subject matter, even if opinions align in this case. UserPyroGuy.png (T · C) 16:35, December 5, 2024 (EST)
What does make this different than outright meatpuppeting is that community members who voted here still at least had prior history editing even if they are active no longer, as opposed to in this case where oppose voters showed up only to vote in a single proposal and never contributed anywhere else. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 16:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Also I do disagree that merely discussing a proposal isn't a form of solicitation, even if there is no directly asking a user to vote. There will always be biases in play depending on who approaches you and why you approach particular people: I'm more inclined to vote in support of my sister's proposal because of such inherent biases at play, and more in favor of supporting other people's proposals because I'm more aligned with their judgement or I have personally more trust in them than others, even if the same points are made, we all do. However, I do think a rule against vote solicitation is unenforceable because at what parameters do people suddenly break the rule? There's always going to be some bias towards one side regardless if there was direct solicitation involved or if it's implicated (and the latter is much tougher to analyze but honestly it's not worth dissecting intentions, we're supposed to assume good faith in all users). BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 16:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I do hear that, but bringing up a proposal in a public space (such as the Discord server) surely would not be a form of solicitation in any case, and is a pretty straightforward and honest way of handling something like this. Just trying to look out for a newer user such as PopitTart in this case particularly since this is their first proposal, and I wouldn't want to accuse them of impropriety without some kind of evidence. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 16:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Oh no, I understand your side. I'm just commenting that you can't completely avoid solicitation because of a lot of inherent biases that'll always be in play. Even writing a proposal practically is a sophisticated solicitation to get people to support you. In this case, I'd honestly have a proposal get votes from solicitation than proposals that end dead with a no quorum or extended dates. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 16:57, December 5, 2024 (EST)
This makes sense to me — I really mean that it's not an improper or untoward form of solicitation that the wiki ought to discourage in my opinion; I do definitely see what you mean about basic proposal-writing being some form of solicitation, lol. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 17:01, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I discussed the subject at length on the Discord server prior to starting the proposal, as I'd never done one before and wanted to make sure I accounted for all the nuances of the topic and got all the bureaucratic details right. Several of the votes are from users who were in that discussion and presumably wanted to get their opinion in officially as soon as they could. --PopitTart (talk) 16:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
@Mario Whether or not the votes have been solicited, I don't know. I'd not want that to be the case. But I think users should be allowed to voice their opinions on a wiki-relevant matter regardless of how much "credit" they have to their name as a user of the wiki, and regardless of whether they are a user at all or not. Otherwise the site just becomes a clique of stuffy nerds who monopolize the work done here and pretend it's justifiable just because they're more involved. This isn't a shade to the opposition (especially since I'm part of it), it just seems like a natural course of things in the given scenario. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 18:51, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Problem I have is less the idea of what is and isn't solicitation and more that something organized in such a way will of course have more users who have already made up their mind compared to the active users who generally pay conscientious attention to proposal discussions. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:05, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I still don't see an ethical problem in this. Indeed, there are a few users whose entire activity in the past years has been to vote for the prevailing sentiment in a discussion, refuse to elaborate, promptly leave. I understand your concern, as you're dedicated to the project and your intentions have been nothing but good--full disclosure, hopefully I don't offend by being honest, but I don't personally like the practice so described either--however, everyone here has a given freedom to vote. If they're not carrying out a concerted effort to sway a consensus, I'm not one to stop them, and I wouldn't be above them were I more conscientious. Most importantly, they're still part of the community even if they're not as active in the space designated the "wiki". -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:25, December 5, 2024 (EST), edited 19:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
No offense taken whatsoever, though I do think it's curious that right after you say you don't see a problem, you then voted "mostly to the detriment of the first option." And, fine, if that's what it comes down to, but I think that adds fuel to my distrust of setting proposals up in Discord servers or however this happened. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:40, December 5, 2024 (EST)
When I said I dislike the practice "so described", I wasn't referring to your behavior, so I apologize if it came off that way. Also, I'm not part of the Discord server. If the other option was added following a discussion over there, I don't know. I don't think I'm being disingenuous with my statements if I then choose to vote mostly against another option--as I said, everyone's got certain freedoms in these activities. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 20:56, December 5, 2024 (EST)
The decision to add the third option was based on comments here, (see Lady Sophie's above and Exiled.Serenity's below) and discussed briefly on the Discord server to, again, make sure I'm doing all the formatting and such correctly for my first time.--PopitTart (talk) 21:15, December 5, 2024 (EST)
To explain the ire against inactive users coming out of the woodwork to vote on something and do nothing else, the fact that they do nothing else means they won't have to deal with the consequences of a disastrous idea they're supporting. And in many cases, the wiki was a different place when they were active. My mind keeps going to this edit, which was performed in 2014 by a user who hadn't been active since 2006, and was so out-of-tune with how the wiki was by then that it is preserved in the BJaODN now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:48, December 6, 2024 (EST)
I disagree that votes cast with relative detachment from the Mario Wiki project are inherently discourteous or damaging. Sure, concerning the proposal itself, it technically erodes the site's stated promise of accuracy, and I'm firmly against it... but a descriptor like "disastrous" kind of overstates the scale of a problem whose greatest possible impact on society is influencing a couple of names in a media franchise (as with Super Mario Encyclopedia). People voting for that to happen is a big nothing burger in the grand scheme of things, however much we scrape the paint off our keyboards arguing, and if you disagree with the consensus, you're not forced to make the proposed changes yourself. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:31, December 6, 2024 (EST), edited 16:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
"Disastrous" was not referring to this proposal specifically, more the issue in general. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:37, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Hey, when you happen to be on many peoples' lists of best-maintained wikis, there naturally comes a certain pressure not to upend the teatable, as it were. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)

Still undecided on this, but to build on Lady Sophie's point above, it feels like we're drawing kind of an arbitrary line here. For example: The internal name we have for what the wiki calls "Comet Tico" is "TicoComet.arc", so we're already making the assumption that this is a Comet Tico and not a Tico Comet, that these are actually intended as two words at all, that the file extension is not intended as part of the name, and that the name of the file even describes what's in the file. Which is all reasonable, of course, since the surrounding context of other entities' official names heavily implies that all that is supposed to be the case. However, if we're worried about maintaining strict adherence to the text, I'd argue none of that is valid. The only appropriate page name would be "TicoComet.arc", which I don't like personally, but at least it'd be consistent. Or, of course, we could take the final step of also assuming that the word "Tiko" is just the Japanese term for Luma, and treating it as such. Sarah Exiled.Serenity talk 17:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I'm pretty sure "Comet Tico" was also the name from the Japanese version of the SMB Encyclopedia. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
The Comet Tico page uses the dev data template, so that's probably not true. This has also been done with several other articles that have titles derived from internal data - Dark Nokonoko and Disaster Neko, to name a couple. Adding to this, we also have Peddler Kinopio, which is only labeled "PeddlerKNP" in the files. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 17:49, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I mean, there is Bone Run Run Packun named as such, despite the existence of a proper Japanese name, Ran Ran Hone Pakkun. I would've tried to get it moved when I noticed, but I think it would be best to wait for this proposal to end so we don't have to potentially move it twice.--PopitTart (talk) 17:58, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Looks like someone beat me to it, but here's my response anyway: "Looking at the Comet Tico page, it has the disclaimer that the name comes from development data. Not sure if that's accurate or not, but the only other name cited (コメットチコ) is from the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, and is in untransliterated Japanese. Either way, I don't think it changes my point much." Sarah Exiled.Serenity talk 17:57, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Would those other pages be affected by this proposal? I don't know of other "Disaster" variants to use as precedent for Disaster Neko, and both it and Dark Nokonoko have another Japanese name listed on their articles that doesn't seem to be from internal data, so how do we know which one an official translation would use? (I feel like these kinds of disagreements that require subjective decisions are another point against this proposal.) As for Peddler KNP, I'd be fine using that name. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:03, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I agree we should not be manipulating in-game file name data just to procure something that makes more linguistic sense to us, but I view names like "Comet Tico" or most of the unlocalized subjects from Super Mario Bros. Wonder to just be Romanizations of their Japanese names, which is something I support. I know from firsthand experience in other fields that this is not an uncommon practice for English texts directed at Japanese audiences, and I do not agree it hurts accessibility or readability. It is just a sincere reflection of what we have, and I would rather not give the impression otherwise. Good reference material make efforts to mitigate the spread of misinformation. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:09, December 5, 2024 (EST)
This is basically the equivalent of transliterating loanwords in foreign names, which is a minimum for language legibility. The way files are typically written is for the base version to be the first word, and then variant characteristics appended afterwards. That's just a consequence of organization, keeping alike things alphabetically arranged for ease of reference. Not all the time, but usually, and CamelCase also denotes where there would normally be a space. Cross-referencing also indicates how the names were likely intended to be read. Maybe the template wording can be revised a little bit. (Comet Tico is, by the way, a proposal suggestion to override Lumacomète.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Why are foreign names being compared so much to internal names anyway? I've yet to encounter a foreign name that doesn't make sense syntactically, even in English (in "Fire Gabon are enemies in Super Mario Bros. Wonder", you immediately understand the subject to be a fiery variant of a thing called "Gabon"; "Kodeka Kakibo" can be read by someone who doesn't know Japanese as simply the subject's name). There is more often than not some creative intent behind them, and using them in no way hurts accessibility as feared. In stark contrast, internal names are supposed to be utilitarian and may not translate well into prose ("Nokonoko Darks are enemies in Super Mario Bros. Wonder has the flow of a ball of wet wipes in a drain). -- KOOPA CON CARNE 18:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I will say this: if it's considered too speculative to say that Mario logically shouldn't get a sunstroke in the basement, then outright making something up for quote-unquote "accessibility" at the expense of accuracy, the latter of which is our express goal, is definitely too speculative. You might think "Fire Spike" is an educated guess or something to that effect, but really, it's just a guess. It is not our prerogative to make up names or localize the games, which is why we only do the former when we have literally no viable alternative. This system we have is not arbitrary, this is the only way to do it while keeping accuracy as the main focus. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)

I want to offer this insight, shared by CM30 in the Discord server (with permission to repost), that I believe articulates part of my argument better than I was able to:
"My opinion on this matter is that user readability should come first on an English speaking wiki. A reader shouldn't need an image or description to understand what a page is referring to, and that's a huge problem with relying too heavily on untranslated or foreign names.
And while you could argue that names should be official where possible, if they're literally just descriptions I see no harm in using a translation"
This is mostly what I mean about accessibility. Getting a first click of engagement is the most important step to getting someone what they're looking for on the wiki, and article titles that don't give clear communication of what a player has seen hinders this process and can cause confusion instead. Again, it's not true for every article that can be interpreted - only ones that have sufficient indication of what their derived name should be. Roserade (talk) 18:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)

Beyond my usual disagreements that being an English wiki means that English material is to be treated as The One and Only Source of Truth...
"A reader shouldn't need an image or description to understand what a page is referring to"
This makes zero sense. I'm sorry. I mean no offense to CM30, but if an encyclopedia wouldn't employ descriptions and demonstrative attachments, it wouldn't be an encyclopedia at all. It would be something closer to a... glossary.
A reader who's never had so much contact with the Mario franchise wouldn't immediately think of a brown anthropomorphic mushroom upon seeing the word "Goomba". That's where the wiki aids them with descriptions and images. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 18:41, December 5, 2024 (EST)
It's still presenting conjecture over official names. Which is not how we operate, nor should it be. Just because something's "easier to understand" doesn't make it better. Opening Fire Gabon's page with "Fire Spikes are enemies from Super Mario Bros. Wonder" rubs me too much the wrong way because it's deliberately demoting the only official name we have for it in favor of something that is entirely based on guesswork. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
But the "only official name" is itself not official. The Japanese name is "Faia Gabon" so the "Fire" part is derived, the internal name is "EnemyFireGabon" so if that counts as official (which I personally disagree with, seeing as it's internal data the developer never would have intended to be seen publicly, if we had no official confirmed name for an enemy in a game and it was internally labelled as "Enemy1.pack.zs" would we call the page "Enemy 1"?) then "Fire Gabon" is still a derived name from that. If you think we should be prescriptivist about this, fine, but don't pick and choose what you apply these rules to and what you don't. FakeIco MCD.png MrConcreteDonkey 19:10, December 5, 2024 (EST)
"Faia" is the English word "fire" written for a syllabic language. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:28, December 5, 2024 (EST)
It's literally just the word "fire" uttered using Japanese characters. It's a matter of linguistic stricture. Deriving the word "fire" from the word "fire" is neither conjecture or prescriptivist LMAO. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:37, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Why is this starting to sound like that "tsk, it's not Mamu, it's Mamū" joke I made a while ago? Okay, several things. Firstly, everything in a game, including the parts that make it tick, is official. By definition. This is no personal agreement or disagreement to be made here. The word you seem to be looking for is "canon", which is not an argument this wiki is interested in. If a development name is too utilitarian to use, simple: we don't use it (for example, Kongā being one of the numbered "waru" DK-bots). In the case that there is no foreign name, we'd probably use a conjectural name than that hypothetical example. The remaining Fire/Faia argument displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how language and databasing work (as already gone over), and the proposer mixed in both under one new option, seemingly redefining our longstanding common-sense rules under the "derived" umbrella (frankly, slipping in perceived Japanese word quibbles is an overreach of this name proposal). And utilizing different sources effectively makes encyclopedias encyclopedic. Becoming the Sūpā Mario Burazāzu Wiki will, in my opinion, put a damper on our reliability. There is nothing broken to fix here. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:28, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I didn't catch that the second option apparently violates the wiki's guidelines, I'm not a frequent editor and I simply went off what discussion in here suggested. I would be okay with the option being reworded to allow loan words to remain as their English spelling if necessary.--PopitTart (talk) 22:18, December 5, 2024 (EST)
It’s worth noting that MarioWiki:Naming#Japanese specifically mentions that names such as “Yoshi” and “Koopa” should use their official English names in article titles that don’t have an official English name. Granted, it doesn’t specify every context that this should be used in or which other names this would apply to, however I feel that it would be logical to extend this existing rule to enemy names that already have an offical English translation, like Spike or Luma. - Ninelevendo's Sig Image 01:08, December 6, 2024 (EST)
The difference is between transcription of names and translation of names. It's saying to write Kuppa as Koopa, not to replace it with Bowser. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:55, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Not entirely sure if transcription is the right term to use here or if transliteration would be more accurate, however your point is valid that this seems to be a slightly different topic from the one at hand, so I’ll admit that my previous comment might not be relevant to this discussion. - Ninelevendo's Sig Image
Yes, that's the use case. Personally, when I see Japanese names being swapped out for English ones, I'm not going to be thinking, "ah, finally, Bauzā no Hikōsen da yo," I'll be thinking, "oh, is this one of those times the Western name made it to Japanese media?" Anyway, let me get the second option straight. If it passes, I'm taking it that the changes will look something like this?

Just wanted to make sure the rest of you who didn't dip out yet are all on the same page lol LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)

This proposal shouldn't have touched development data names. This is a completely separate topic that needs a discussion of its own. Axii (talk) 10:14, December 6, 2024 (EST)

You're right. There certainly was a switcharoo here, wasn't there? After coordinated 20 voted for an option that's technically no longer there. What is going on? We should at least have a rule that proposals initially written with group input can't be revised afterwards, or a voting cap before revisions are unallowed... LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Was there an actual executional difference added to the basic "Support" option? I don't think I'm catching one. Ahemtoday (talk) 10:54, December 6, 2024 (EST)
I believe the distinction being made is that "Informant" is not an established adjective for enemies, so in grouping Informant Mucho into option 1, the premise has been ever so slightly changed from "if the parts of the name have been translated separately we are allowed to put the translations together" to "grant increased permission to extrapolate a 'normal' name from development data" (EDIT:slight misreading)Salmancer (talk) 10:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
This is not really different from the "Comet" in Comet Tico though, and "Informant" is literally written in English in the game files in that case (not translated by wiki users). Only "Mūcho" would be translated to Snifit in that case, much as it always has been, which is definitely the sort of thing that the first 20 supporters voted for. I don't think that the wool is being pulled over anyone's eyes. (edit: and, as someone who voted shortly before option 2 was added, I knew that this is what I was voting for.) -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 11:25, December 6, 2024 (EST)
So what's the article title of this informant character going to be? If it's anything other than "B4_Informant_MUC", wouldn't it be classified as a "derived" name? See the problem? LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Informant Snifit, presumably, if the proposal passes—I'm not sure I'm understanding the confusion? This is the type of derived/translated name that the proposal is seeking to allow. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 11:36, December 6, 2024 (EST)
...I just made a list of what the second option would do if it passes, right above. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Apologies, I misunderstood and thought we were discussing the results of option 1... In that case I agree that the informant should be moved to B4_Informant_MUC if option 2 passes, yeah. I don't see how this is misleading anyone or making previous votes invalid, though? -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 11:44, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Sorry, I misspoke a little bit since I had the first and second updates mixed up in my head in this roller-coaster of a proposal. To recap, there were a total of :30: votes at the time the proposal was first updated, and the odd timing of in/semi-active editors had already been brought up at that point. At the time of the second update, the second option was dialed back - as it should have been since that would have to be the focus of a writing guideline proposal - but nearly :10: users had already voted for the earlier version of that option. Make sense? LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
If the proposal's Ship-of-Theseus'd itself into a different thing entirely after so many votes, it should probably be canceled and never restarted. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
I'll take Nintendo101's word below, but I still don't think option updates should've happened with something that grew so large already. That just brought needless confusion, especially when eyebrows were already raised. If we're going to be super-technical, isn't the act of transliteration itself not a derivative form? I'll say it again: templates could probably just be rephrased. Also, if community-made proposals are technically not breaking any rules now, I believe we'll definitely be thinking about making some rules later. Speaking for myself, I've always made sure my proposals stood on their own in all my time here; if I ever talked about my proposal plans, I'm pretty sure I've never given a time frame or 'advertised' (for lack of better word) when it was ready, and if I've ever talked about an active one, I'm pretty sure it was nearly always to give courtesy when proposal options have changed or when new information comes to light. That method has worked out for most wiki proposals fairly well. I've never once paid attention to or noticed anything involving Discord discussions, and this may be the first time I've come across a Discord-community-developed proposal. Why not go all out and let Super Mario Wiki's social media followers in on this proposal's existence too? As long as we don't tell them how to vote, of course. Now that'd be interesting. Or is that too far? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:22, December 6, 2024 (EST)
I don't know how much the owners of the Twitter account (where the bulk of the site's social media presence lies) are willing to lay a spotlight on the wiki's dramas, even if you loosely describe the Twitter as an extension of the wiki community. There's something ironic in saying that these discussions may be too heated for a Twitter user, however, I always thought the Mario Wiki account tries to maintain an attitude of good humor towards its followers, and the vibe of a discussion like the one here feels kind of contrary to that. The most I've seen of the account actively promoting inner-wiki endeavours were things related to The 'Shroom or requesting volunteers to provide some source material.
The people at the Discord server and Mario Boards are more readily available to vote because a lot of them are signed up wiki users, with at least some history here, and who are more used to these discussions. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:13, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Could always make a sub-account. I call it... Super Mario Wiki: Proposal Patrol. Alerts followers of new proposals and developments. I'm half-joking, of course. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
This is not a "Discord-community-developed proposal" and it is very disappointing that this is your impression from the details I provided. I find it incredibly bad faith. The advice given to PopitTart entailed suggesting she give examples of what this proposal would look like if enacted and making sure it was formatted correctly in terms of date and voting options. That is literally it. She did not even tell anyone when she published it. That is extremely innocuous and common practice, and has always been available to you or any user on this site, via reach out on talk pages, Mario Boards, or Discord. It is not at all uncouth. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Don't get me wrong. I trust your assessment of the situation. It's just that the Discord side of things is, to the old-fashioned like me, a mystery box. I don't see, I'm not involved. It was Admin Mario who pointed out the obvious irregularity, and that part of the discussion rolled from there. I'm just making it clear that I'm one of the ones who wouldn't like it to become a new regular. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:12, December 6, 2024 (EST)
For full disclosure, I am a regular participant in the Super Mario Wiki Discord and I actively gave PopitTart pointers on how to write this very proposal, including the inclusion of that second voting option. I disagree with the proposed changes and still do, but that is less important to me than helping a less experienced user do the best job they can. But the point is that I was privy to the surrounding discourse.
From my perspective, I saw an inexperienced user from a NIWA wiki with different naming policies (and one who has also been more active on the Discord over the past year or so just because it is friendly space, so it is not like they mysteriously rose out of the woodwork just to make this proposal) passively share that they thought it was silly to not translate some of these straight-forward Japanese names, and other users through their own volition and agency openly agreed with them, some of which quite strongly. I did not personally see anyone encourage them to write this proposal with the aims of taking down a policy they dislike, ask others to vote, to vote in any particular way, or coordinate a plan to vote together as a group. (I did see encouragement from the perspective that it is nice to see an inexperienced contributor want to develop a main page proposal, as staff and senior editors generally support people taking initiatives and participating in community-driven spaces like proposals, but that is not the same thing, at least in my view.) Again, maybe this still feels uncomfortable, but I did not see anything I would consider to be "solicitation." I saw a user share a view that others agreed with, and they decided to make a proposal. Maybe proposals should be written with that as a disclaimer, but I do not think it is the same as solicitation. I do not think anyone here, be it supporter or opposition, is here in bad faith, and only want the wiki to be the best it can be, and I hope folks remember this even if the proposal is not going in the direction they would like.
For me, at the end of the day, I want to give readers good, accurate, and reliably attested information, even if about silly Nintendo games. I do not feel comfortable asserting "there is an enemy called Fire Spike in Super Mario Bros. Wonder", because that is not true. It is not called that in any Mario media. The impression I have is that I am calling it that because I want to call it that. Saying there is an enemy called Fire Gabon or even rendering that name as Faia Gabon, to me, is accurate and is just the information we have at the moment. The fact that this name looks silly next to related enemies like Stone Spike is a lot less substantive to me. I do not discount accessibility and readability as important - they absolutely are. I want people to come here, learn, and appreciate the work we do. However, I also believe readers are entitled to accurate information and I want the wiki to be trusted source. I do think the proposed changes weaken that a bit. There have been many good-faith arguments from the supporters - especially from Roserade and Hooded Pitohui - but none have addressed this impression of mine. My feelings are not as strong for in-game file names because the subjects I personally work with on the wiki typically have official names or are at least mentioned informally in officially-licensed literature, but I at least have found your remarks on this persuasive, LinkTheLefty. I think I realize from this discussion that I would support the Romanization of official Japanese names to take priority over internal file designations for games developed by Japanese speakers, but that is not what that this proposal is about. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:00, December 6, 2024 (EST)
While I won't accuse the support to have been coordinated, especially coming off of your message, I will criticize the Discord folk for their tendency to come here with their mind made and refuse to take any of the counterarguments in consideration. "You want to make this wiki less accessible", "Encyclopedias should not rely on descriptions", and "ファイア is definitely not the same thing as the English word 'fire' in a different writing system" are not arguments made in good faith. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
I don't want this to turn into full discourse unrelated to the proposal, but I also think it's entirely unfair to assume attitudes like this, and to misconstrue arguments to put words in people's mouths. Everyone I've seen discuss this on Discord has fully acknowledged that counterarguments have merits, including myself. I read every single comment on this proposal before I ever placed my own vote or comment. And I never once said that I think your aim is to make things less accessible for the entire wiki - I stated why I feel like this change would improve accessibility, which is a different argument altogether. Also feels just a hair hypocritical to say that we're appearing while refusing to take in counterarguments, while you began this proposal process with a bolded statement on what our website's intention is, which felt like you staunchly claiming that your position would not change. I'm not going to engage with this any further than that, just, worth acknowledging. Roserade (talk) 13:53, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Your impression seems to be that my bolded statement was an opinion--if I'm wrong, correct me--but I was merely highlighting a truth: the express mission statement and, until some time ago, prevailing sentiment in the site was that it should present information as accurately to the source material as possible. Speculation has always been frowned upon and removed on sight here. If there is ever going to be a global consenus that it's a better direction for the wiki to consistently let users make up their own constructs and pass them off as fact, I can accept it. Until then, I will try to uphold the above principle and bring attention to any developments that undermine the current explicit direction. This is not hypocrisy. The provision of facts in a medium with educational purpose is not negotiable, and I'm certain you are sensible enough to understand that. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:34, December 6, 2024 (EST), edited 14:39, December 6, 2024 (EST)
On supporting official Japanese names over internal file designations - there are also a lot of names that are perfectly good, near-1:1 translations of Japanese equivalents. From my list: Banana Squid, barbell, Black Fairy /Attack, Electricity Block, Fairy Board & Trampoline, Ice Snake Block, Rolling Frog, Snow Mole, Spring & Surprised Flowers, and Assembly Blocks, to name a few; surely these would be preferable to Banana Ika, Tetsu Arei, Kuro Yōsei /Attacker, Hōden Block, Yōsei Ban & Trampoline, Kōri Snake Block, Koro Gaeru, Yuki Mogura, Bane & Bikkuri Hana, and Gattai Block, respectively. I was actually thinking of making my own proposal that would virtually be a controlled version of this one, which would formalize dev transliterations to go alongside these exceptions (for example, what we currently do with Bakky and Big Run Run Packun over Bakkī and Deka Run Run Pakkun, but extended as an additional reference point for "officialness" over fan-names). This proposal made me realize that...internal name handling was never formally codified in writing guidelines somewhere, was it? Rather, it's always been buried in discussions, even though I could've sworn otherwise. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:05, December 7, 2024 (EST)

I understand that at this point whether or not I vote is kinda irrelevant, but still, I'm curious, would Jewel Rausuto be moved to Jewel Goob or stay as is? I'd rather have it stay as is, personally. After all, "Summon Rausuto" and "Kill Rausuto" are officially translated as "Diffusing Goob" and "Lethal Goob" respectively. Blinker (talk) 17:42, December 6, 2024 (EST)

Hey, there's still 13 whole days left in this proposal, anything can happen. If you feel strongly about it, you should certainly make your voice heard. As for the Jewel Rausuto, I'm unsure, which means it probably should not be translated. You are correct that Diffusing Goob and Lethal Goob are not direct translations despite using English words, however Bomb Goob, Mini Goob, Regen Goob, and Speed Goob are. With that though, the "Jewel" part of the name is questionable. It drops gems when attacked, not jewels, so it's harder to make the same argument as Comet Luma here. This may be another case of individual subject discussion. --PopitTart (talk) 18:07, December 6, 2024 (EST)

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of either of the proposed changes, though I do agree the current guidelines need to be changed somehow. For example, Disaster Neko isn't the name in any language, it's not something that readers could intuitively search for, is barely comprehensible to most readers, and isn't even the actual filename. That's no good. Obviously there's no perfect solution (beyond Nintendo taking the time to properly localise everything we could write an article about, which realistically isn't going to happen), but might there be merit in pausing this proposal somehow? Given that there's now precedent for additional voting options being added in response to feedback, I think it would be worth letting the discussion play out without there being 'stakes' i.e. the voting deadline and the recognition that this will affect many, many pages.

I'm not an active editor and certainly not knowledgeable on the exact procedures of wiki proposals, but if there was an option to reset, re-discuss, and restart the proposal with voting options that properly reflected the outcome of the discussion, I would go for that. UserPyroGuy.png (T · C) 18:14, December 6, 2024 (EST)

I'm not certain about the logistics about pausing a proposal or anything of that sort (nor would I have any stake in such a decision), but I will say, I do think the idea of letting the discussion play out without "stakes", as you say, has merit. Something here on which I agree with KCC on is that this is ultimately related to the mission of the site, and perceptions and sentiments around how to achieve that mission. What this proposal is adressing is a matter of organizing, categorizing, and especially presenting information, and that tends to invoke considerations of high-level, philosophical approaches. Unlike, say, a hypothetical proposal to merge two varieties of Goombas, the discussion doesn't hinge on demonstrating some detail is true or false; instead, we're explorting as a community a major aspect of how we fulfill our mission of collecting and presenting the Mario franchise to an audience of Internet users. Whenever a discussion veers into philosophies around categorizing and presenting information, you often get a surprising diversity of views, and those views tend to be strongly held - if you've ever waded into taxonomy, you'll see it!
In light of that, I think firm guidance is beneficial on a high-level, philosophical matter like this, and that the wiki staff are in the best position to offer those kinds of firm guidelines. That's not to say that there's no room for community input! On the contrary, I think discussions like this are highly beneficial, both to the community at large so that editors can guage one another's opinions and as a way for wiki staff to see that this is an issue under consideration of the wiki, but I do wonder if there could be a more accessible or active public arena for them (like the forum) outside of formal proposals. Proposals necessarily have a time limit, and necessarily are limited to one outcome or the other (though certainly measures can be taken to address the concerns of voters on the opposite side or sides), both of which put pressure on the discussion.
All of this is to say, I think TPG has a good point. A discussion like this might benefit from playing out without the constraints of a proposal. And as a personal thought, unrelated to TPG's, seeing as this speaks to those philosophies or organizing and presenting information, I would personally have no objection if the wiki staff were to sit on the points raised in the discussion and to issue a policy ruling based on the outcome of their deliberations. I'm not advocating for that. The staff know better than I do if that's a wise course of action or not, after all! Rather, I only mean that I would personally find that an acceptable resolution as well as resolution by proposal, whatever their decision.
All of that said, I do still want to commend PopitTart for bringing the proposal up in the first place. I've said before and I'll say again, I think it was a good effort from an earnest contributor, and the vigorous discussion is has produced is ultimately a positive for putting the wiki's editors on the same page even if there are disagreements. I hope you will continue to contribute to the wiki and that you feel comfortable here! Hooded Pitohui (talk)
I would be open to this idea, if it is indeed a viable option allowed by the rules. The addition of Option 2 was made in response to feedback, but with less thought than it might have needed compared to the original proposal. Doing this could also help quell the worries of solicitation and Discord interference by some, since much more discussion would nessesarily be on-wiki.--PopitTart (talk) 19:33, December 6, 2024 (EST)

All this discussion about the veracity of the proposal itself, and we honestly still don't know what the plan is for if the second option passes. Like, what, do we actually rename Pump Mario to "STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI"? The proposal suggests that some names would be trimmed, but the only example trims just a number; there are no numbers in that mouthful. Where exactly are we intending to draw the line? Do we go as far as to just trim it to "PUMP_MARIO"? Is it really more accurate to just make the name all-caps and include an underscore? How exactly do we intend to make these longer internal names make sense grammaticaly, within the actual article text? ~Camwoodstock (talk) 19:13, December 6, 2024 (EST)

I belive internal names could be trimmed down, but it would be up to more disccussion. It was suggested earlier that things could be formatted as "STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI is the internal name for a form taken on by Mario in the Mario & Luigi series". --PopitTart (talk) 19:33, December 6, 2024 (EST)
We are not going to "pause" a proposal. If a proposal cannot proceed because it needs to be ironed out more, it should be canceled and go back to a drawing board on a sandbox page pending more discussion. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:26, December 6, 2024 (EST)
It'd be helpful if the list of projected first-option changes was also in full; the last time derived names was used, it was mostly directionless and led to many conflicting ideas on how to go about it, and it should be the proposer's duty to reassure us. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:55, December 7, 2024 (EST)
I've started such a list on my userpage, currently with just subjects listed in Category:Articles with titles from development data as there are a lot of articles in the foreign language category to sift through. The proposed names are sorted into categories based on their varacity.--PopitTart (talk) 17:44, December 7, 2024 (EST)
I still intend to abstain from this proposal, but as for your list, Dark Nokonoko, Wonder Packun, and Mecha Nokonoko feel more like they'd fit in the Shy Guy zone than the categories you placed them in. As with Shy Guys, Koopa Troopa and Piranha Plant variants use both the base species' full names and the shortened "Koopa" and "Piranha" respectively. In particular, the Wonder Packun's similarities to the Cloud Piranhas should be noted—both are associated with Castle Bowser and appear exclusively in Super Mario Bros. Wonder's world map as barricades of sorts. On the other hand, Mecha Nokonoko wouldn't overlap with Mechakoopa if you were to refer to it as "Mecha Koopa Troopa". The other categorizations seem sound to me, though. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 20:24, December 7, 2024 (EST)
I never clocked "X Piranha" or "X Koopa" as being distinct means of naming, rather a shortening of what the full "X Piranha Plant "X Koopa Troopa" name would have been. But, that is still a very fair pespective that should be considered.--PopitTart (talk) 20:54, December 7, 2024 (EST)
In my opinion, longer names make more sense for all of the tossups except Wonder Packun/Piranha. Packun/Flower and Hey/ho have precedence as the long-short forms. Noko less so, but it can be confused with other Koopas. LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:15, December 8, 2024 (EST)
I mean, that only really works out for the opening of articles. What about when the name appears mid-sentence? We mentioned it in the vote itself, but we can't think of a way to make "They consistently spew water into a small basin, allowing Mario to swallow some and turn into Pump Mario." flow well if Pump Mario is now STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI. Like, what, do we say "Allowing mario to swallow some and turn into the form known as STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI in the data"? Asinine wouldn't even begin to describe that one... ~Camwoodstock (talk) 11:03, December 7, 2024 (EST)
"become this form," I'd say. As long as it doesn't end up like this, that should be fine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:34, December 7, 2024 (EST)
The question is how does another article that isn't primarily about the form refer to it? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:37, December 7, 2024 (EST)
I would say at the very least STRM_SE_ wouldn't be included in the article name, as this is very clearly info to signify that the file is a sound effect, not actually a name for the form itself. Shy Guy on WheelsSGoW sig.png(T|C|S) 11:57, December 7, 2024 (EST)
Neither is "KUSUGURI". That means "tickle", referring to the Tickle move. It's not part of the name for the form, so saying that the form is referred to as STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI is just incorrect. It's referred to IN the name, but not AS the name. Blinker (talk) 13:16, December 7, 2024 (EST)
Then what's left? Just PUMP_MARIO? Are we really going to enforce it being all-caps and with an underscore if the second option passes, just in the name of "accuracy"? ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:30, December 7, 2024 (EST)
I was wondering when someone would notice. Looks like "PUMP_MARIO" it is, although I am reminded of this old common-sense proposal. If we did something like that, we might even be able to use...well, you know. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:34, December 7, 2024 (EST)
At that point, if preserving the original presentation is so important that some names from internal data have to be shown in SCREAMING_SNAKE_CASE, then shouldn't moderately-large-persimmon-enemy's name be rendered in kana as こでかカキボー? Otherwise, how is it too speculative to give a name sensible capitalization and, you know, spaces, but not to change it to an entirely different writing system? (Of course, I'm not actually arguing for using Japanese characters in page titles, in case that isn't clear.) Blinker (talk) 16:31, December 7, 2024 (EST)
I mean, there's this nifty feature called "redirects"... LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:51, December 7, 2024 (EST)
We should omit underscores for page names for wiki purposes. Underscores are added to filenames solely for programming reasons because reading scripts for filenames can get fucked up if spaces are used rather than underscores. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:22, December 7, 2024 (EST)

The more I think of it, the funnier the idea gets of straight up using filenames to name things on the wiki. I unironically want to see that.
>be me
>cheepcheep.gif
-- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:28, December 7, 2024 (EST)

I have "completed" (it's a simple once-over of the dev data and foreign language cateories) a list of articles that might be affected by option 1 of this proposal passing, and what their new names could be, or what further discussion about them individually may entail. For the sake of not making this proposal even more oversized than it already is, I'll just link to where I've written it on my userpage.--PopitTart (talk) 22:29, December 7, 2024 (EST)

@DesaMatt: The opposition's point (or at least my point) isn't that the wiki is an official source or is trying to be one. I think many people here would be confused and displeased if "Fire Gabon" actually became the official English name. Rather, the fact that we're not an official source means it isn't our job to translate names that official sources have not translated. There's a difference between being an official source and being a source that compiles information from official sources. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 08:45, December 8, 2024 (EST)

I read their argument as moreso that, what is the meaningful difference between writing "Deka Hoppin are large Hoppycats" (quote directly from the current page) and just calling it "Big Hoppycat"? Both examples require inference of things that haven't officially been stated in English."Why is it bad to call Fire Spike by that name term when everyone can agree that's what they are but it's not bad to describe anything using words that were never used by Nintendo at all?"--PopitTart (talk) 11:31, December 8, 2024 (EST)
Come to think of it, that whole "deka" mess still has yet to be sorted out. Regardless, while I like that this now has a more defined structure, I'll touch on my main position a little more. If this wiki is big enough to be a significant point of reference by all sorts anyway - amateur and industry alike - I'd rather we take the path that results in the least trouble for all parties. More fan-tweaks means more opportunities to accidentally violate CC BY-SA 3.0 (no, I don't think the inverse is nearly as likely when the alternative obfuscates officiality). I firmly believe that direction - and votes like DesaMatt's show that at least it is seen as a step in another direction - will erode wiki usability and license trust in the long run. The second option is arguably the most immediately satisfactory in that regard, but you know how I felt about that earlier, and I and others are starting to think that dev data would best be reevaluated in another proposal. I speak for myself, not of all the opposition. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:27, December 8, 2024 (EST)
My perspective is that page titles and page text are somewhat different matters, where titles are trying to reflect actual official sources as much as possible while page text is trying to explain official sources. We do translate Fire Gabon to "Fire Spike" in its names in other languages section, because that's us explaining the official name, but "Fire Spike" itself is not an official name that has ever been used, so it shouldn't be the title. Sort of like how we're allowed to comment on Podley's resemblance to the Beanish without declaring that he officially is one. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:33, December 8, 2024 (EST)
The difference, to me at least, is that "Deka Hoppin" is the enemy's name, and "Big Hoppycat" is not. That's it. This enemy is a big Hoppycat, and I do not think anyone is arguing it is not. Describing it as such is an accurate, literal reading of the game and the enemy's physical design, and it even has the name of its parent species ホッピン (Hoppin) in its own Japanese name, which traditionally is a cue that certain enemies are related to one another. I also think it is extremely likely that "Big Hoppycat" will be the name Nintendo themselves publish when they come around to localizing the last few enemies in this game. But that does not change the objective truth that, at this moment, this enemy is not named "Big Hoppycat" anywhere, and so I don't feel comfortable saying that is its name. It has nothing to do with any kind of unique reverence for Nintendo - I don't really care what they do. It has to do with my belief that readers are entitled to the truth in their reference material. My hope for our fan wiki is to provide good, accurate, and reliable information. Saying this enemy's name is "Big Hoppycat" just isn't true, and the arguments I have seen in this thread do not dispute that. Instead, the arguments I have heard in response is that being truthful is not important for a fan wiki about Nintendo games or is less important than accessibility. I agree accessibility is important, but I don't understand why displaying Deka Hoppin or limiting ourselves to the names that have actually been released is harming accessibility. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:01, December 8, 2024 (EST)
Simply put, the reason it hurts accessibility is because it's giving a foreign name to English readers stripped of its context, since the subjects it should be related to all have English names. Amongst a lineup of Bullet Bill, Big Bullet Bill, Bomber Bill, Bull's-Eye Bill, Seeker Bullet Bill, and many others, its extremely easy to miss the very direct connection Deka Chase Killer has to them. I didn't even catch that the bigger Snootle and bigger Swirlypod already had articles until compiling my name-change list because the connection Nintendo intended those names to have is lost.--PopitTart (talk) 17:07, December 8, 2024 (EST)
What we wish was the official name doesn't become the official name, and as I argued way up the page in my vote, variants don't always have to have their relationship immediately obvious from name alone. Amongst a line-up of Shy Guy, Spear Guy, Stilt Guy, Woozy Guy, Fly Guy, Boo Guy, and many others, would you guess that Bandit is a Shy Gut variant? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:16, December 8, 2024 (EST)
I don't think thats a particuarly good counterpoint, and I point to the Japanese names to explain why. Killer, Kyodai Killer, Magnum Killer, Search Killer, Chase Killer, Deka Chase Killer. Meanwhile, the shy guy names are Heihō, Yarihō, Takeuma Heihō, Moonsault Heihō, Propeller Heihō, Yūrei Heihō, and Borodō. Even alongside Japanese names, Borodō is a distinct name, intended by Nintendo, and that is reflected in the localized names. The only reason Deka Chase Killer stands out is because it has been removed from the naming conventions it was intended for by the Super Mario Wiki.--PopitTart (talk) 17:32, December 8, 2024 (EST)
Either way, the point stands that the official name being simply "Bandit" could be confusing to some (as has been argued for the other names), but that doesn't make it not the official name, in the same way Deka Chase Killer not fitting in doesn't make it not official. I feel like it's hard to invoke "intent by Nintendo" for a proposal where the goal is to ignore Nintendo's names. We aren't Nintendo, so we don't know their intent, which is why we should just use the names they provide without changing them to suit what we think they ought to be. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:40, December 8, 2024 (EST)
That also continues to ignore the repeatedly mentioned simple solution of redirects. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:10, December 8, 2024 (EST)
I don't think saying "just use redirects" is as great of an argument as you think it is because this proposal is not about looking up a subject in the search bar. It is about how it is read within a sentence on an article's page or how it appears in categories, or list articles, or in the infoboxes of related enemies with clearer English names, or in the enemy table for the only game it appears in. It is about how the text is read. Redirects would not meaningfully address any of those issues, which is why they are not part of the proposal at all. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:57, December 8, 2024 (EST)
That can be mitigated in other ways that don't involve doing what this proposal aims to do. Most lists make the relation self-evident, like templates, list of species, and lists within enemy and game articles. Personally, I always thought the lists of species and enemies looked really similar, so you can model the latter after the former or even outright merge them, for instance. I think it was also suggested that prose can soften without having to alter article names. Mind, this can still be a little obnoxious when you're looking at some categories like the proposer did, but in many web browsers, you can always hover your mouse (oh no my old-fashionedness really is showing) over any name to get the main image and introductory paragraph for a refresher without having to click it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:50, December 9, 2024 (EST)
The wiki almost always provides a context clue that a subject is a variant of something else, even if the subject is presented with a non-English name. The enemy tables I've seen place these subjects right after their base variant, with an image and a blurb to help readers further identify them (which, contrary to what others will tell you, is the very point of an encyclopedia); the List of species also puts variants in sub-lists directly following the base species; and I don't think I need to talk about how compact and distilled infoboxes are. The only places where the structure cannot be modified in a way similar to the above are categories, but I expect readers to use these less often than content pages. All in all, the non-English names continue to be a non-issue to those who aren't concerned with linguistic purism. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 09:32, December 9, 2024 (EST)
It's bad because "Big Hoppycat" is not what Nintendo ever called it, and it's prioritizing a fan-made name over an official one despite the wiki inherently revolving around official material, reasons given being that "we are an English wiki" (a concerning point of view that undermines the wiki's neutrality just because of a choice of lingua franca), "encyclopedias shouldn't rely on descriptions" (lolwut???), and "this site is not nintendo.com". -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:42, December 8, 2024 (EST)

Question related to this proposal for those more familiar with the fine details of the wiki's inner working: What are the current guidelines for naming powered-up characters? Articles like Fire Mario, Penguin Mario, Ice Mario, etc. give names to the forms taken by characters besides Mario when using those powerups. Are these conjectural? If so, do conjectural naming priority rules used for other subject apply? If its found that Boomerang Rosalina has an official Japanese name but no stated English one, would her form be refered to as Boomerang Rozetta?--PopitTart (talk) 01:39, December 9, 2024 (EST)

Simply put, we don’t have a dedicated page for Boomerang Rosalina, only for Boomerang Mario. In fact, at the moment we don’t even have a dedicated page for Kitsune Luigi even though it’s a peculiar form, with its own name (both in English and Japanese) and appearance - pretty different from that of the Tanooki forms. When it comes to naming powerups outside of page names, due to established naming conventions from Nintendo the only relevant part is the “powerup” part, which is what comes before the character’s name. In any case, suspect cases like Giga Cat Plessie are indeed marked as conjectural, but that’s mostly because we aren’t sure it’s a Giga Cat form to begin with.—Mister Wu (talk) 03:16, December 9, 2024 (EST)

Here's an example I think completely destroys this proposal's argument: Goombud. Its Japanese name, and indeed, its purpose and role, have it as a combination of Galoomba (Kuribon) and Goombrat (Kakibou), and indeed its Japanese name is Kakibon reflecting that. Ahead of release, at least a few people took to calling them "Galoombrats," but lo and behold, their English name ended up being totally different. This is a recent example, too, so not like how Clubba (Gabon-hei)'s English name is completely irrelevant to Spike (Gabon)'s despite their linked Japanese names. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:38, December 10, 2024 (EST)

A portmantau is given as an example in the original proposal through Baboom, whose japanese name is a portmantau of hanabi (fireworks) and Bomuhei (Bob-omb). It, Kakibon, and any other subject whose name isn't [unique trait][space][subject] would not be subject to the changes made by this propsal.--PopitTart (talk) 15:46, December 10, 2024 (EST)
It's proof enough that this proposal is building off a false premise, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:52, December 10, 2024 (EST)
It feels like this argument stems from a misunderstanding of what the proposal's premise is to begin with. The goal as I understand it is to use derived English names in cases where the official name can be straightforwardly translated, for the sake of accessibility, while still making clear that those derivations are not actually official. Since PopitTart already clarified the proposal's stance on other kinds of names, I struggle to understand what argument is left from bringing up Goombud/Kakibon to begin with. Reese Rivers (talk) 12:40, December 11, 2024 (EST)
It shows that "straightforward" is a false premise. Just like with Clubba or Pyro Guy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:24, December 11, 2024 (EST)
Putting aside that "Galoombrat" isn't really a "straightforward" translation in the same way... sure, it's subjective, but that's why the proposal suggests implementing the names on a case-by-case basis. And even if a name turns out to be wrong later, it can simply be moved to the right one — again, it's not as if derived names will be treated with the same importance as official ones. Reese Rivers (talk) 17:53, December 11, 2024 (EST)
I think you're overselling the difference in importance, here. It's going to amount to a template at the top of the article. Everywhere else on the wiki — navboxes, article text on other articles, everything — is going to treat a name we made up as if it is official. If you don't click on the article and check the top, it'll be impossible to tell. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:27, December 11, 2024 (EST)
How does this differ from the wiki's current use of fully conjectural names? --PopitTart (talk) 18:31, December 11, 2024 (EST)
Fully conjectural names are supposed to be simple. That's why stuff like the conjecturally-named Virtual Boy Wario Land enemies were renamed a while back to not sound less like somebody's idea of official (ie. many of them had hyphen stylizations like in the manual). In a sense, this will do the opposite of that. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:48, December 12, 2024 (EST)
I'm not sure how applicable this is to variant subjects, like this proposal is for. It is very reasonable to move Upside-Downer to crawling skull, but is it even possible to give Gold Mini Goomba, Fortune Toad, Big Note Piranha Plant, or Puffy Lift Mario conjectural names that accurately describe them and don't sound official? My argument is that these kinda of names are the simplest ones, and it would be more helpful to readers to see them rather than Japanese or internal names.--PopitTart (talk) 12:34, December 12, 2024 (EST)
On a related note, once, someone moved the page that is now known as Flipbug to "Flying Mandibug" because they thought it sounded "more official," despite their resemblance to Mandibugs beginning and ending with "they're beetles found in similar places in the same game." The discussion to move it back had some people seemingly under the impression the page was actually about a "flying Mandibug" rather than the completely different subject it described. This is a slippery slope that should be avoided at all costs. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:42, December 12, 2024 (EST)
Because for conjectural names, no other name exists. In these situations, we already have a name we can call them. Ahemtoday (talk) 19:03, December 11, 2024 (EST)
For whatever it's worth, a suggestion has been offered on the Discord server to extend conjectural name formatting guidelines to derived names as well, using hoverable text. That, I think, would solve any problems there, though I don't know if that will need to be a separate proposal after this one passes. Reese Rivers (talk) 18:46, December 11, 2024 (EST)
The conjecture template is not universally used whenever an article with a conjectural title is linked to. In fact, I'm fairly certain the only places they're used consistently is for glitches on the pages covering them, and on the tables on game articles. So using a similar template in the same way would fix little of the potential problems. Ahemtoday (talk) 19:03, December 11, 2024 (EST)
Hoverable text is far from ideal because it does not adapt well to smart devices. On those, the way you can interact as an end user with text marked as hoverable is to tap on it, which replaces the text outright with the note that would show up beside on PC. Try this. The problem arises when you make hoverable text out of linked text: how are you supposed to interact with this on mobile without loading up a new page? Or is mobile accessibility not worth pursuing? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:05, December 11, 2024 (EST)
These suggestions isn't set in stone, anyway, and I think there are a number of solutions that could be considered for this (footnotes, for instance). That might need to be hashed out after this proposal is passed, however. Reese Rivers (talk) 19:16, December 11, 2024 (EST)
This is a problem that goes beyond the scope of this proposal. Ideally, all unofficial names, conjectural or derived, would have an easy-to-access note stating as such. If Big Trottin' Piranha Plant is easy to mistake as official, then the same goes for Gold Big Piranha Plant.--PopitTart (talk) 19:23, December 11, 2024 (EST)
Replying to both of y'all here — I don't think an issue of implementation as major as this one can just be shrugged off and "saved for later". That's an indefinite period of time where links to "derived names" indistinguishable from real ones are going to plague the wiki, with no plan to fix it that can take mobile users into account. I recognize that the proposal is likely to pass anyway, but I don't think that's an excuse to just sweep the problem under the rug. Ahemtoday (talk) 19:50, December 11, 2024 (EST)
PorpleMontage has recently updated Template:Conjectural and created Template:Derived which can apply a hovertext note to a name when its in plaintext, and add a supserscript note when the name is a link. Would this be an effective option?--PopitTart (talk) 20:13, December 11, 2024 (EST)
The problem is putting these everywhere these "derived names" appear. That includes navboxes, so as an aside I'd like to say that even quote marks in navboxes feel like a waste of width to me, so entire superscript notes on multiple items apalls me. But the real problem is tracking down every use of these derived names and sticking these notes on them. I'll be honest — I do not believe that will happen. There are many "derived names" and many references thereto, and given the infrequent usage of Template:Conjectural currently and this very proposal's vote ratio, I don't expect the effort to be expended. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:35, December 12, 2024 (EST)
At that point, why not just leave the enemy's name intact? Footnotes? Why all these convoluted ways to tell readers that "hey, just letting you know this is a name we made up even though the enemy has an official name. Just a heads-up, oki? Feel the warmth of a c c e s s i b i l i t y.--when the altnernative is both much simpler to manage, eludes all these lengthy discussions on the "right" manner to name subjects, and is ultimately more accurate to the source material? Why try to fix a problem that literally does not exist, only to bring about multiple problems in the process?? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:39, December 11, 2024 (EST)
I'm sorry, but I really am not sure what you're trying to say with this reply. Conjectural names specifically exist because there is no official name, so a solution for this is nessesary regardless of how it relates to derived names.--PopitTart (talk) 20:13, December 11, 2024 (EST)
I think we've really gotten in the weeds here with all this talk about putting footnotes on conjectural names. None of that is actually relevant here. The truth is, conjectural names being unmarked outside of their own article is fine to me. I recognize I may not have come off that way, and I apologize for potentially misleading the discussion, but referring to arrow fields consistently as "arrow fields" without any disclaimer on other articles is fine to me. The reason I'm not fine with unmarked "derived names" is that "derived names" themselves are not fine to me. They are an entirely different situation to conjectural names, as instead of no official name existing, here there is an official name that we have decided an unofficial one is superior to. I'm sorry I let talk of some kind of indicator template sidetrack us, but the truth is, even if we had a perfectly smooth to read and perfectly easy to upkeep implementation of them (and we don't), warning people we made up a name we didn't have to is a bandaid fix for the fact that we made up a name we didn't have to in the first place. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:35, December 12, 2024 (EST)

Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on December 16 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

Based on this proposal.

Location articles for RPGs have a unique issue in that there's a lot of data that needs to be catalogued. Enemy encounters, item locations, area maps. Normally this is not much of an issue, unless the location reappears in several games, where it becomes a VERY big organization problem. The game's data is split across two separate locations and bundled with the information for other several games, making it a pain to extract useful info. Toad Town, Bowser's Castle and Peach's Castle are the greatest offenders here, being way more unwieldy to navigate than other comparable RPG areas such as Beanbean Castle Town or Palace of Shadow. With the recent return of the Mario & Luigi series, this issue is only going to become worse unless something is done about it.

This proposal aims to treat all of these castles and towns and islands as their own location, in the same way we split Super Mario levels, race tracks and sports courts. The main page would still link to it in its History section.

The question is, what counts as a major appearance? I'd say a major appearance is any appearance that warrants a Profiles and statistics section. That means Bowser's Castle in TTYD or Mario's house and Peach's Castle in M&LSS would not get split.

By my count, these pages would need to be created. It might seem like a big list, but most of it would just be copying over what is already in the base articles.

  • Bowser's Castle:
    • Bowser's Keep (Super Mario RPG)
    • Bowser's Castle (Paper Mario)
    • Bowser's Castle (Paper Mario: The Origami King)
    • Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)
    • Baby Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)
    • Bowser Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story) (potentially merged with Fawful Theater, per Pseudo)
    • Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Brothership) (potentially merged with Wayaway Island, per Technetium)
  • Peach's Castle:
    • Mushroom Castle (Super Mario RPG)
    • Peach's Castle (Paper Mario)
    • Peach's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)
    • Peach's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)
    • Peach's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam)
    • Peach's Castle (Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle) (I'm not familiar enough with the game to be 100% sure if it's warranted. Input is welcome.)
  • Toad Town:
    • Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario RPG)
    • Toad Town (Paper Mario)
    • Toad Town (Paper Mario: The Origami King)
    • Toad Town (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)
    • Toad Town (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)
    • Toad Town (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)
  • Yoshi's Island:
    • Yo'ster Isle (Super Mario RPG)
    • Yoshi's Island (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)

Additionally, there are some grey areas that are worth considering separately.

  • Star Hill: This one's a unique situation, seeing as it's a location that has only appeared in RPGs, and has only shown up in a major capacity. Splitting all three would leave us with no "main" article for the location itself.
    • Star Hill (Super Mario RPG)
    • Shooting Star Summit (Paper Mario)
    • Star Hill (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)
  • Mario Bros.' House: This only BARELY counts as a major appearance. The amount of stuff listed in the Profiles and statistics section can be counted on one hand. Nontheless, it's included here for completion.
    • Mario's Pad (Super Mario RPG)
    • Mario's House (Paper Mario)

These are all the examples I could find, but suggestions are very welcome. I'm also not completely sure about the names each article should have.

Proposer: EvieMaybe (talk)
Deadline: December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Split locations in only the first list

  1. EvieMaybe (talk) Voting for this currently, and I'll add a second choice after some conversation on the second list happens.
  2. Pseudo (talk) Strong support for this as it would make navigating and maintaining the relevant sections of these articles much easier; it’s also in-line with how we handle appearances of locations like Bowser's Castle in platformers already (see World 8-Bowser's Castle (Super Mario Bros. 3) et al). Star Hill seems fine to me as-is as an RPG-exclusive location with less unique to say about it in terms of its individual appearances, as does Mario's House since it is typically a fairly minor location in its appearances; I think that it's OK to handle these things on a case-by-case basis.
  3. Zootalo (talk) Per all.
  4. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Articles are getting really big and this is probably best for organisation purposes.
  5. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) While we would like it more if the Neo Bowser Castles were included, this is a step in the right direction and one we'd like to see.
  7. Tails777 (talk) I can see merit with this, organization being the big one. Plus the whole Neo Bowser Castle thing does add to being a good point.
  8. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  9. Exiled.Serenity (talk) The current setup seems a bit inconsistent. It's especially strange that the boss fight from Bowser's Inside Story doesn't have its own page.
  10. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
  11. LinkTheLefty (talk) Star Hill should probably have its own proposal like it and Neo Bowser's Castle have had in the past, though it stands to reason that these listed articles are big enough to split in a way similar to histories and galleries.
  12. Scrooge200 (talk) This has always bugged me! Articles like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle can be such a pain to navigate and they tend to get less coverage than unique locations. I also advocate for splitting the Neo Bowser Castles because if they had went with any other name they'd be separate (it's just that Paper Jam isn't particularly known for its originality).
  13. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.

Split locations in the first list, split Star Hills, do not split Mario's Houses

  1. Pseudo (talk) Also voting for this; not sure what I'd consider my first or second vote currently, with further consideration. Splitting Star Hill as well would probably aid with navigability at least a bit, though I still think that splitting Mario's House would accomplish little.

Split locations in both lists

Do not split any of these locations

Comments on splits

I'm wondering something about Bowser's Castle in Brothership specifically. It’s located on Wayaway Island, which has its own page. Assuming this proposal passes, should we merge the castle into the Wayaway Island page, or make a new one as titled in the proposal? Technetium (talk) 13:46, December 8, 2024 (EST)

If we do this, could we please split the Neo Bowser's Castles too? Because like. One of those is a wholly unique castle, and the other is literally just Paper Jam's incarnation of Bowser's Castle, after having been lifted up into the sky on a purple drone doohickey. It is literally just the exact same castle aside from that, and yet it has its information put into the same article as Dream Team's Neo Bowser's Castle, just because they share a name. This has been bugging us ever since we noticed it, and we feel like this proposal could be a good time to finally split those two up. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 14:36, December 8, 2024 (EST)

I would be in support of this, including adding it to the current proposal. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 14:40, December 8, 2024 (EST)
The Neo Bowser Castles were merged from another proposal. By the way, Peach's Castle in Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle is like in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time and Super Mario 64, the main hub of the game. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 14:43, December 8, 2024 (EST)
Honestly, one of the main reasons why the Neo Bowser Castles remain merged is largely because of places like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle. If those started getting split by game, Neo Bowser Castle would become more reasonable to split as well. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
yeah, i don't feel comfortable adding Neo here bc i feel it's a slightly different case, since it's not exactly a recurring location. there's definitely room for using this proposal as precedent for it if it passes, though. eviemaybe (talk / contributions)

For what it's worth, Fawful Theater, a location within Bowser's Castle, which takes up most of the castle in Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story, already has its own article, so it may be prudent to merge Fawful Theater with the to-be-split Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story) article if the proposal passes. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 15:03, December 8, 2024 (EST)

There's also the matter of the boss fight against Bowser's Castle. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 15:36, December 8, 2024 (EST)
that presumes BIS Bowser Castle getting split, though eviemaybe (talk / contributions)

If this passes, can we split Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World) from Yoshi's Island (location) in a similar way as well? I just think it's weird that this is the only platformer world (to my knowledge) that doesn't have its own article, and that kinda data is instead lumped on a page for the general location. By that logic, Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey) should be merged with either Mushroom Kingdom or Peach's Castle as well. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 17:01, December 8, 2024 (EST)

the original draft for this proposal covered SM64 and SMO's Peach's Castles before i decided to scale it down to just the RPGs, actually! hopefully this serves as precedent to split both those and yoshi's island. eviemaybe (talk / contributions)
I would definitely be in support of these splits as well, though I can understand wanting to keep the proposal focused. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) User:Pseudo 10:39, December 9, 2024 (EST)
I'd support Super Mario 64 Mushroom Castle. I don't remember how big or notable the Super Mario Odyssey one was. Yoshi's Island had its own discussion and proposal at one point that should be reviewed. The individual Super Mario World articles do do their job... LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:11, December 9, 2024 (EST)
Technically, Peach's Castle from Odyssey is already split from the main Peach's Castle article, as it's being integrated into the aforementioned Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey) article. In the game, Peach's Castle is treated as the Mushroom Kingdom's greater location, aka the main explorable world from that kingdom, in the same way how Tostarena is treated as the Sand Kingdom's greater location/explorable world and how New Donk City is treated as that to the Metro Kingdom. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 15:38, December 9, 2024 (EST)

Recently, I changed the Yoshi Sphinx article from solely covering its Sticker Star appearance to covering all of its appearances throughout the series, which sparked a bit of discussion about splitting it. I can't say this particular split excites me, given how minor every other appearance of it is, but I wanted it to bring it up here since it's related — do y'all think that should be split as well? Ahemtoday (talk) 19:32, December 8, 2024 (EST)

The Yoshi Sphinx is only really a "location" in Sticker Star and is just kind of a recurring motif in other games, so we feel like a split in that context is largely unnecessary. I mean, what, are we meant to make an article called Yoshi Sphinx (Super Mario 64 DS) which just says "The Yoshi Sphinx (Super Mario 64 DS) appears in the interface of the Puzzle Panel and Puzzle Panic minigames. It re-appears in New Super Mario Bros. DS, also in the Puzzle Panel minigame."? That seems excessive. ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 20:14, December 8, 2024 (EST)
the proposal says "major RPG appearances of reocurring locations", not "interface decorations of platformer minigames", so i assume Ahemtoday means splitting Yoshi Sphinx (Paper Mario Sticker Star). eviemaybe (talk / contributions)
I would prefer the Yoshi Sphinx article remained as is now. The other recurring sphinxes are so minor that the article already has a decent focus on the Paper Mario appearance. (Great article, by the way!) — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 22:05, December 8, 2024 (EST)

Do Bowser's Keep, Mario's Pad, Yo'ster Isle, Shooting Star Summit, and Baby Bowser's Castle need identifiers? I'm pretty sure those names are localized entirely within their games and related media. Also, I believe "Toad Town (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)" should be "Toadtown Square" and "Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)" should be "Bowser Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)". There could be others missed. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:50, December 9, 2024 (EST)

the identifiers are mostly to let people know which game each town or castle is from, they can def be removed for the actual articles. thanks for the naming tips, however! eviemaybe (talk / contributions)16:05, December 9, 2024 (EST)

I honestly wouldn't want the Bowser's Inside Story Bowser's Castle article to be titled as "Fawful Theater". The game itself labels it as "Bowser's Castle" and the theater is only the smaller upper portion of the castle whereas the larger basement has nothing to do with the theater. I'd do it the other way around: either merge Fawful Theater with "Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)" or keep Fawful Theater as its own article. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 20:05, December 9, 2024 (EST)

Just to be clear, these will continue to have main-article templates on the origin's article and not be treated as a distinct subject, correct? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:08, December 9, 2024 (EST)

The proposal says that "the main page would still link to it in its History section", so I think so. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 22:20, December 9, 2024 (EST)
That's the impression I had. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:48, December 12, 2024 (EST)

Broaden the scope of the {{rewrite}} template and its variations

With the previous proposal having passed with being more specific as the most voted, I've come up with a proposal about the possibility to make the {{rewrite}}, {{rewrite-expand}}, and {{rewrite-remove}} templates more specific. As you can see, these templates are missing some smaller text. As such, I am just wondering if there is a possibility to have the smaller text added to the {{rewrite}}, {{rewrite-expand}}, and {{rewrite-remove}} templates.

First of all, the {{rewrite}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten.

However, once the proposal passes, the {{rewrite}} template will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article.

And another thing—the {{rewrite-expand}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information.

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-expand}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by filling in the missing details.

Lastly, the {{rewrite-remove}} currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): ???

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-remove}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s):{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by removing the unnecessary details.

That will be a perfect idea to make the {{rewrite}} template and its variations as more specific as the {{media missing}} and {{unreferenced}} templates. That way, we'll be able to add smaller text to the remaining notice templates in the future.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

  1. Altendo (talk) As far as I can tell, the proposal that was linked added parameters that allowed what was supposed to be referenced to be referenced. This one simply adds a subtitle to the bottom of each template. "Be more specific" does not mean saying general information and helpful links, but rather exactly what needs to be done; in terms of that, the existing templates not only all already have parameters, but filling them out is enforced. As Nightwicked Bowser said, "Be more specific - Similar to this proposal, what exactly needs references must be specified in the template when putting it in the article. A parameter for this will still need to be added." This only adds a subtitle and does not make this "more specific". As for the changes, this is actually harmful in some way, as the (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}}) tag will be added to the subtitle, rather than the main body, which could make it more confusing in my opinion. Feel free to update this and add in what "more specific" actually means, or just change this to "add subtitles" and change the location of (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}}) to the main body, but until then, my vote is staying here.

Comments

Here's how I would fix some things:

First of all, the {{rewrite}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten.

However, once the proposal passes, the {{rewrite}} template will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten for the following reasons:
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article.

And another thing—the {{rewrite-expand}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information.

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-expand}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information for the following reasons:
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by filling in the missing details.

Lastly, the {{rewrite-remove}} currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): ???

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-remove}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed''' {{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reasons:{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s):
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by removing the unnecessary details.

This should fix some things, and I also recommend you change the title or at least context of this proposal. If so, then I might change my vote. Altendo 19:58, December 9, 2024 (EST)

I fixed this problem for you. How does it look? GuntherBayBeee.jpgGuntherBayBeeeGravity Rush Kat.png 09:40, December 10, 2024 (EST)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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