MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
===Encourage concise, consistent and minimalistic layouts and design for tables===
===Do not surround song titles with quotes===
Tables in game articles are a total playground. Overall, they often are as inconsistent and showy as they can be, and are often laid out in such a way that it makes them worse to read. Some are more extreme than others, like driver and track tables in [[Mario Kart (series)|''Mario Kart'']] articles, such as [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_64&oldid=4402277#Courses this] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_7&oldid=4401364#Drivers this]. Those ostentatious charts look like they belong in a promotional website rather than in an encyclopedia, and do not prioritize ease of reading and data relevancy. Some are not all that exaggerated, but still look over the top, overstyled and are more spacious than they need to be. Maybe people think it is more fun to design them like that, but they look unprofessional.
This is a change to [[MarioWiki:Manual_of_Style#Italicizing_titles|this section of our Manual of Style]]. Currently, our policy is to surround song titles with quotation marks whenever they appear. However. We are a Mario wiki, and the Mario series overwhelmingly ''does not'' do this.


That being said, these are the points I judged good ones to encourage when it comes to creating tables:
The comparison arises to italics, but I feel there's quite a difference between that (an effect applied to text) and the inclusion of punctuation marks, which ''are'' text in and of themselves. Not to mention, unlike italics, which would require special programming to implement, quote marks are supported by anything that supports English text, meaning it's not a question of technical limitations — every game that names its songs is perfectly capable of listing them inside quotation marks, and yet they make the choice not to.


'''1. Uniformly use plain wikitable style for regular tables.''' Pages often use several styles for tables for no reason (the [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Paper_Mario:_Sticker_Star&oldid=4399708 article for ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star''] uses four styles throughout, [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Paper_Mario:_Sticker_Star&oldid=4399708#Status_effects here], [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Paper_Mario:_Sticker_Star&oldid=4399708#Characters here], [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Paper_Mario:_Sticker_Star&oldid=4399708#Locations here] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Paper_Mario:_Sticker_Star&oldid=4399708#Super_Flags here]). The wikitable style is pretty standard, so it makes sense to use it consistently.
As such, surrounding song titles in quotes is questionable as adherence to an unofficial naming scheme over the original one. Not to mention the effects this can have on lists of song titles — their inclusion on [[Template:DDRMM]] fluffs up the width of the song section by the width of ''several'' song titles.


'''2. Prefer to lay out table data in simple rows or columns.''' If the table data fits well in a "one entry per row or column" format, do it, rather than attempting to use more elaborate, arbitrary layouts. Some examples of such arbitrary layouts are [https://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_Kart_7#Vehicle_parts this table], which is laid out like it is a grid of infoboxes, and [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars&oldid=4379392#Objects this set of tables]. If you judge it wouldn't work to make a table fit that minimal layout, try making it the closest possible to it.
I'd also like to take the opportunity to mention how inconsistently these quote marks are applied across the wiki already — many entries in [[:Category:Music]] do not use them in their article, none of the lists of songs from the shows or of WarioWare DIY records use them, [[Starring Wario!]] and ''only'' Starring Wario has had its article title changed to have the quotes. I take this to mean the rule is not serving the wiki as it stands.


'''3. Avoid using images of text in lieu of actual text.''' This is often done for the name of the subject, and it is purely for decoration purposes. Cases include Mario's name and stat names [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Paper_Mario:_Sticker_Star&oldid=4399708#Mario.27s_stats here] and board names [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Party_2&oldid=4403544#Boards here] (notice that the images in those examples are not there for mere visual reference, as they replace links; the editor likely wanted to add some flavor to the table). It makes the text less straightforward to read, in some cases duplicates it, because normal text is used alongside the image. Another common occurence is using images of stars or other icons to represent scales (such as "X out of 5 stars" scales), when you could use standard star characters (★ and ☆) instead. That does not mean to ''never'' use images instead of text, only consider whether it is worth it or not. For example, [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_8&oldid=4403601#Drivers.27_and_vehicle_parts.27_statistics_2 this] is a ''good'' use of images replacing text because writing the names for each driver and part as text would make it harder for the reader to quickly find the desired info.
The one exception to everything I've mentioned thus far is ''Paper Mario: The Origami King''{{'}}s music discs: [["Deep, Deep Vibes"]], [["Heartbeat Skipper"]], [["M-A-X Power!"]], and [["Thrills at Night"]]. These are the only time the names of songs are formatted this way (possibly due to the items being CDs ''of'' the songs and not the songs themselves). Therefore, '''these will be the only exception if this proposal passes, and will keep their quote marks'''.


'''4. Avoid using more images than necessary to illustrate the subject.''' This is also often used for decoration and visual effect. As an example, playable character tables in sports games articles (such as [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Superstar_Baseball&oldid=4392117#Characters this] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Kart&oldid=4392250#Drivers this]), where the playable characters' table entries often include both an illustration of the character ''and'' that character's in-game icon (which is just the character's head graphic), which is redundant (if I already have an illustration as visual reference for the character, an icon showing the same thing is unnecessary, and vice versa). This is a specific example but that happens with other kinds of tables, like [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_Kart_64&oldid=4402277#Courses the ''Mario Kart 64'' track table] featuring both an image of the track ''and'' the track's thumbnail. Consider whether adding extra images actually make sense or if it's just filler.
To circle back around to my original point: I think the nail in the coffin for displaying music this way is [[Nintendo Music]]. This application, specifically meant to play music, does not surround their names with quote marks. And yet [[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music|this article]] surrounds them in quotes anyway, stringently adhering to our unofficial way of formatting these over the way Nintendo Music actually formats them. It's almost ''lying'', frankly.


'''5. Avoid decoration in general, such as coloring text and cell backgrounds.''' Take the colored table [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Mario_3D_World&oldid=4405481#Characters here] for example. As I said before, it is more about the visuals than the info, and it looks like some sort of promotional material. Instead, save coloring text and table cells for cases where it aids in reading data in some way.
So, our options:


Notice I've been proposing for these guidelines to be encouraged rather than enforced because some of them depend largely on the judgement of the editor.
* '''Option 1: Exclude quote marks from song titles in all cases.''' Our manual of style will remove the mention of song titles from the section of italicizing titles. Just for clarity, this excludes Origami King's CDs.
* '''Option 2: Keep quote marks when song titles are used in a sentence, but exclude them from standalone appearances of the title.''' Such standalone appearances would include article titles, navboxes, infoboxes, track listings, and table entries. Just for clarity, this option, too, excludes Origami King's CDs.
* '''Option 3: Do nothing.''' I guess this option ''includes'' Origami King's CDs.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro Hammer}}<br>
'''Proposer:''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Option 1====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} My primary choice. I've firmly laid out my reasons why here.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} I prefer to think of each music as a work in its own right rather than a part of some "greater whole". ''[[Jump Up, Super Star!]]'' is more than just a piece of ''Super Mario Odyssey''{{'}}s OST. Therefore, song titles should be italicized like any other work and not be in quotation marks as if they were merely chapters.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, and there's [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Italics formatting of boat names, fictional products, and others|precedent]] for following Nintendo's official formatting in spite of usual conventions. The inconsistencies described in the proposal ought to be fixed regardless of the outcome, though.
#{{User|Biggestman}} While I to a degree understand the entire thing with the songs simply being a part of a greater thing, that isn't really fair when I would make an argument some of these songs are a larger part of the series' history than those "greater" things. For example music from Yoshi's Story is still used relatively often to this very day, but Yoshi's Story as a whole is just kinda there. Per all, too.


====Support====
====Option 2====
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} Per my proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I will settle for this — part of my ire toward the quotemarks is that I find them highly unsuitable for these particular usages.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} The only thing this proposal is missing is encouraging tables to be horizontally aligned in accordance with web design standards, but otherwise, pretty spot on. I think a little visual flair with coloration is okay, but since this is more of a guideline to be encouraged, I'm fine voting for this as-is.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Secondary option, per my comment below in Option 3.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I will say, I have used colors for some of the tables I have crafted for the mainline series articles I have worked on, but it is always with illustrative intent. When all the tables in an article look indistinguishable from one another, it can sometimes be easy to lose one's place or not easily understand how some bits of information relate to others. But otherwise, I thinks these are great guidelines and they have my support.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Nintendo101; color has a time and a place, but stuff like the SM3DW character chart just kinda feels like a meld. That's not to say we should be replacing everything with the dull greys, of course, but we should probably dial it back at least a ''little'' bit. No real objections to the other parts, we should probably standardize as best we can.
#{{User|Ninelevendo}} I just don’t like what’s been done to the Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour character table so whatever it takes to fix that.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per all
#{{User|Lakituthequick}} Per proposal and per WT – I have indeed commented a few times on tables and how they should be used for tabular data (more notably [[Talk:Mario_Kart_Wii#Decide_how_to_present_courses|for ''Mario Kart Wii'']]), and this proposal will start enforcing tables to do that.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Wholeheartedly agree with all your points. These tables are over-designed and often include superfluous information (e.g. the track table in the Mario Kart 64 page, why don't we also add staff ghost times and future appearances while we're at it?)
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Camwoodstock and Waluigi Time
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|MCD}} Per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} Per all. Information should remain accessible and easy to reference, and tables utilizing images instead of easily transcribed or copied text are the opposite of that.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all; MarioWiki is not a fansite, it's a wiki! A wiki's tables should therefore be formal and not unconventionally designed.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all. Table design on this wiki has bothered me for a while, and these guidelines are a great solution.
#{{User|Mario}} Current tables are too cluttered with information and are quite hostile to editing. This is a case of less is more imo.


====Oppose====
====Option 3====
#{{User|Tails777}} I can agree that there should be a bit more consistency and organization on when and where to use certain elements for a table, but I also believe in making tables both informative and entertaining to look at. I see nothing wrong with using board logos to represent names for some of the earlier ''Mario Party'' boards that had them or using colored backgrounds on tables (something I've already supported). And while I can agree that some of the ''Mario Kart'' related tables are a bit all over the place, I believe we could take certain similar cases (tracks, boards, statistics, etc) and maybe make guidelines for each based on the topic. I get that this isn't outright enforcing the outage of these elements, but I don't really think we should actively enforce minimalist designs for tables, rather deciding what to do on a more case-by-case basis.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a ''greater whole'' (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in ''{{wp|The Color of Water}}''. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of ''{{wp|Resident Alien (TV series)|Resident Alien}}''. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the ''Super Mario'' franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "[[Gusty Garden Galaxy (theme)|Gusty Garden Galaxy]]" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and [[Gusty Garden Galaxy]] is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - As the person who made many of the more "showy" ones, I'm kinda societally obligated to oppose this as a matter of course. <small>I can't let my MS in CS with a few classes on advanced web design/web app programming and an undergraduate Minor in Art go to waste</small> and I find it more engaging and explanatory as to the different aspects of whatever entity is being described to have both an in-game graphic and either an artwork or a screenshot. Stat bars and star-bubble fill-in charts with color-coding are also a lot more immediately understandable than numbers alone. To quote Bowser, [https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxjfSn6biDqu-61p6UwftFsKbsS2_1O8vX?si=0CqbG4WO7I7GE8V3 "Haven't you heard? A picture's worth a thousand words."] (People also generally seem to approve of my tables for the ''[[Golf]]'' games...) Anyways, I'm not gonna make this a big to-do, since I still can be beautiful on [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Fun with tables|my own page]], but I still think it looks and functions better than a schedule-looking list with inconsistent image resizings and row heights.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per N101. quotation marks are a writing convention! most mario games also don't have italic titles, but we italicize them anyways because it's a formal writing convention that makes sense
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all. Some consistency between tables in articles would be nice, but I feel the rules this proposal would put in place are a bit too much. I mean, we did recently pass a proposal ''allowing'' [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Allow_colorful_tables_again colorful tables] again.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Strong oppose, per all. This is a well-recognized writing convention, the fact that Nintendo doesn't typically follow it within their products is irrelevant.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all. While consistency is good, there's a point where it becomes unnecessary and repetitive, and in my view this is that point. Also, I disagree with the idea that MarioWiki isn't a fan site. It will always be a fan site as long as it's not officially affiliated with Nintendo and is operated by fans.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Nintendo101. These quotes are here for a reason, no matter how remote it may seem.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I actually really like the trend of giving games uniquely stylized tables, it helps give them a bit more personality. All the information is there and you can still read it effectively. I think I worked on some of the modern ''Paper Mario'' tables, and nobody seemed to have a problem with them until now.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Quoting songs is from the manual of style itself, it's the same reason we italicize game titles. I would go even further and quote song titles as a display title like I did in "[[Starring Wario!]]"
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - "Because game writing" is what leads to wikis encouraging jokey sarcastic writing, which I'm pretty sure is not the direction we want to go.


====Comments====
====Comments====
{{@|Tails777}} Using images as a substitute for text is very poor for accessibility and searchability with ctrl+f, though. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 22:08, October 23, 2024 (EDT)
If this passes, how would it affect coverage of non-Mario music? Our only options are either to have two standards, or ignore established convention based on what Nintendo does for media they had no hand in actually producing. Neither seems ideal to me. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:24, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:True and perhaps I can agree to not substituting text with images. But I still stand by what will be my main point: tables can be presentable and professional without being a bore to look at. I still see nothing wrong with colored tables at the very least. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:We'd treat non-Mario music the same as Mario music. Established convention doesn't mean much when we're always saying on this page that we're not other wikis and we don't necessarily need to do things the way other wikis do them. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::I don't think anyone is advocating to hold onto a convention just for the sake of it. Rather, that we should hold onto the convention because it is useful and the proposal doesn't provide persuasive reasons to abandon that usage, or at least it does not for me. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)
In addition, I wouldn't use applications such as Nintendo Music as proof that we shouldn't abide by formatting either. Neither music metadata nor files themselves quote song names, neither does [https://open.spotify.com/track/433JymbpWnRMHXzp1oTRP7 Spotify] nor [https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Bother-Shakira/dp/B000BUEG9U Amazon Music]. Yet {{Wp|Don't Bother|Wikipedia still does}} because that's how it's standardized in writing articles. In addition, you pointed out how "Starring Wario!" is the outlier as your point, I've '''only just started working on those articles''' mate. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:01, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:Even Wikipedia doesn't use the quotes in article titles though. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:17, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::I would support an option that called for just removing the quotation marks in the header for articles (as done {{wp|I Am the Walrus|here}}, which should be compared to {{wp|Magical Mystery Tour#Track listing|here}}). This is not uncommon in written books on music. But there currently is no voting option to do just that. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)
{{@|Ray Trace}} I'm aware it's in the manual of style. That's why the proposal is about changing the manual of style. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:I'm not talking about the wiki's manual style. I'm talking about general guidelines especially [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_works_cited_other_common_sources.html MLA] {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:41, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::If it's not ''our'' manual of style, then there's no reason for us to care about it because we don't use it. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:04, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::''Our'' manual of style '''is based on this manual of style.''' {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:11, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::If it's only ''based on'' it, then it ''isn't'' it. The manual of style is ours, so this quote mark convention has to survive on its own merits, not just by virtue of being in someone ''else's'' manual of style. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:22, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::Not using general formatting standard guidelines solely because "we shouldn't just because we're not them" is not a good argument. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::Well, then — '''Nintendo doesn't do this either, so there's no reason for this wiki to ''pretend'' like they do.''' That's been my argument this whole time. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The main difference is that they're a video game, and they're inherently informal in their presentation. They're not trying to write things and bios formally, they're trying to present writing to players, so formatting like italicizing game titles is optional, because that's what it's set out to do. On the other hand, we're an encyclopedia, our writing formatting is far more similar to Wikipedia which observes these things and MLA writing guidelines, and how to format sourcing, and it's something we ''should'' emulate over a video game's script. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:47, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::{{@|Ahemtoday}} I don't think that is the strong argument you think it is, because almost no piece of media where it has become conventional to include quotation marks include them themselves. They are not on the back of most [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/e1/7e/abe17ef61a737df53498f93487668213.jpg albums], [https://images.template.net/89102/novel-table-of-contents-template-wvzrz.jpeg books], or [https://addbcdbimages.s3.amazonaws.com/nick/sbsp_fish_bowl.jpg title cards for television shows]. But they are all still presented with quotes arounf them in reference material like Wikipedia and physical books. What makes the Nintendo music we cover here so different that warrants unique treatment? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:53, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Nintendo doesn't always italicize game titles either, this site does. To be honest, though, I'm not sure how consistently this wiki observes MLA. There's some superficial basis in it (mostly coming off of Wikipedia's style guide, which is sprinkled with some MLA), what with the titles of whole works being written in italics and those of constituent parts of a work being surrounded by quotes, yet the manner in which citations are formatted, arguably a priority of any academic style guide, seems rather peculiar to Wikipedia's house style. Take any citation formatted using the {{tem|cite}} template on this wiki and compare it to how [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_formatting_and_style_guide.html MLA proposes it is done] <small>(owl.purdue.edu)</small>. There's also been at least [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Italics_formatting_of_boat_names.2C_fictional_products.2C_and_others|one attempt]] at explicitly adopting a standard purveyed by MLA that got shot down. Not to digress too much, I just wanted to point out that MLA is not currently as pervasive here as it's made out to be and can't be appealed to solely because of a few instances that (happen to) observe it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:20, November 11, 2024 (EST), edited 19:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::I am personally forgiving on how we structure citations in that template, because many academic journals don't adopt the MLA structure either. Everyone does something a little different from one another. The information included in a citation is more important than how it is organized, and things like ISBN are pretty helpful for an online reference like Super Mario Wiki.
::::::::But I also don't believe in supporting conventions just for the sake of them ''being'' conventions. I'd rather support them if they are beneficial. What are your thoughts on what I said in my vote above? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:33, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::I cannot argue with your vote. If a writing standard promoted by outside guides can harmonize with the needs of Mario Wiki, there's no reason not to adopt it. Quotation marks serve their purpose well in this case. so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:10, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::Cool! I was just curious. I value your perspective. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:14, November 11, 2024 (EST)
 
I'm realizing I haven't given my full thoughts on {{@|Nintendo101}}'s vote yet. I agree that there are benefits to formatting song titles in this way (particularly in sentences, which is why I have the option to keep the quote marks exclusively ''in'' sentences) — but this formatting scheme misrepresents how the actual works in question are referred to by official media. I had to ask a friend who had Nintendo Music to find out whether or not the app displayed song titles in quotes, because I couldn't trust this wiki to tell me — and, like I said, Nintendo Music ''doesn't''. Yet [[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music|this article]] writes the song names as if it ''does'', because apparently this convention is more important than this kind of information. I know this is a minor piece of information, but this formatting convention causes me to be '''unable to trust the wiki about it'''. No benefit can counterbalance that. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:I am sorry that you felt mislead, but are you sure it is not because you were unfamiliar with this being a convention for music pieces in the first place? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:12, November 12, 2024 (EST)
::I was well familiar with the convention and how this wiki used it at the time, which is why I knew to ask a friend instead of taking the wiki's word for it. I take such a hardline stance against it not because this untrustworthiness has personally wronged me, but because untrustworthiness is a failure of the wiki on principle. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 00:02, November 13, 2024 (EST)
:::I am sorry, I was not referring to Super Mario Wiki in isolation. I was referring to the convention at large. In books and articles on music, regardless of topic, individual pieces are placed within quotation marks. I know I myself first learned one is supposed to put quotation marks around music titles while I was taking English class in middle school. So while I am sympathetic that this bothered you, I do not agree it is misleading. Maybe the issue lies with folks who do not have a lot of experience reading or writing about music. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:05, November 13, 2024 (EST)
::::Whether or not readers are familiar with the convention doesn't change the fact that the convention is not reflective of what is being talked about. The only reason wiki readers know [["Thrills at Night"]] and its ilk are actually surrounded in quotes officially is because we haven't been thorough in applying this convention. If we ''did'', then the distinction would vanish completely, because the wiki currently considers adhering to this guideline more important than this kind of information. You can't pin that on readers being unfamiliar. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:17, November 13, 2024 (EST)
:::::I have contacted the director of the Purdue OWL at Purdue University to ask them how one should cite music tracks that already has quotation marks rendered in their name. However, to be honest, I am still not really sure what the issue here is. How are the quotation marks any different from italicization of video games and albums? The name ''Paper Mario: The Origami King'' is not displayed anywhere in Nintendo's official material italicized, but we do it for the same reasons one puts quotation marks around music tracks - because it is a useful MLA convention. For music, it is unclear to me on what is being miscommunicated or lost when they are accurately displayed between quotation marks, especially since articles for "Thrills at Night" and other tracks are accompanied with [[:File:PMTOK Thrills at Night.jpg|screenshots that show how they are rendered in-game]]. Is this not sufficient? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
::::::It is not sufficient. To begin with, not every use of song titles is accompanied by images showing that the music titles are formatted without quotes — the majority of articles in [[:Category:Sound tests]] do not have such images. (Not to mention that to use these images to establish the formatting of every song title in a given game would require a comically excessive amount of images.) Furthermore, even if they ''did'', this information would be entirely invisible to users of screen readers, raising accessibility concerns. This information can't be conveyed by images alone. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 15:14, November 14, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Couldn't it just be clarified in the article itself that a piece of music is displayed with quotations mark around it? It is not a very common thing to do. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
::::::::Writing in an explicit note clarifying that ''this'' time the article is actually reflective of how the music is referred to officially is a much more convoluted way of going about this compared to just referring to them in the official way to begin with. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 16:50, November 14, 2024 (EST)
 
Biggestman: The formatting of quotes in songs aren't discussed from a cultural relevancy angle, they're in context of being part of an album. It's the same reason short poetry gets quotes, but novels get italicized, we'd quote "The Raven" but still italicize ''The Day My Butt Went Psycho''. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:40, November 15, 2024 (EST)
 
===Add identifiers to near-identical titles===
Current MarioWiki writing guidelines state that articles with shared titles recieve an identifier to disambiguate between them (see: [[Mark (Mario Tennis series)|Mark (''Mario Tennis'' series)]] and [[Mark (NES Open Tournament Golf)|Mark (''NES Open Tournament Golf'')]]). However, this currently relies on the articles sharing an identical, character-by-character name. This means [[Color coin]] (''Super Mario Run'') and [[Colored coin]] (''Wario Land 3'') do not recieve identifiers, despite sharing functionally identical titles. Other sets of articles with the same dilemma include [[Secret Course 1]] (''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins'') and [[Secret Course 01]] (''Super Mario Run''), [[Spyguy]] (''Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis'') and [[Spy Guy]] (''Paper Mario''), and [[Rollin' Down the River]] (''Yoshi's Woolly World'') and [[Rolling Down the River]] (''The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!'').
 
This proposal aims to amend [[MarioWiki:Naming]] to consider near-identical titles like these as "shared titles", and thus qualify for recieving an identifier according to the established criteria. This is already applied in some articles, but this proposal aims to formalize it as part of the naming rules.
 
Note that this proposal only covers names that are '''semantically identical''', and only differ in formatting or minor word choices. [[Buzzar]] and [[Buzzer]] have extremely similar names, but they aren't semantically identical. [[Balloon Boo]] and [[Boo Balloon]] are extremely similar as well, but the word order sets them apart.


With regards to colours and visuals as is most often used as a counterpoint: I believe those are strictly speaking less important than being informative and clear, but I do love myself tables that look good as well. I can see a future proposal to establish some generic reusable table styles and colours for specific purposes. To take one back a while, Walkazo did [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/30#Navigation_Templates|just that for navigation templates]], which, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/36#The_Template_Shuffle|with updates]], resulted in [[MarioWiki:Navigation_templates#Coloration|this chart]] to be created, still in use today. ''The 'Shroom'' for instance also features [[The_%27Shroom:Issue_211/Pipe_Plaza#The_.27Shroom_Report|its own table styles]] which are pleasant to look at, and which use colours [[The_%27Shroom:Issue_211/Strategy_Wing#An_Octet_Gazette|that match the page's theme]]. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 08:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
'''Edit:''' Per Hewer's question and my comment below, I'd like to point out MarioWiki already does this sometimes. Pairs of near-identical names with identifiers include [[Family Basic (microgame)]] and [[Family BASIC]] (as ruled by [[Talk:Family_Basic_(microgame)#Moving_the_page|a proposal]]), [[Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise)|Hot Air Balloon (''Donkey Kong'' franchise)]] and [[Hot-air balloon]], [[Finish line (object)]] and [[Finish Line (microgame)]], and [[Avalanche (obstacle)]] and both [[Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix)|Avalanche! (''Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix'')]] and [[Avalanche! (Mario Party 4)|Avalanche! (''Mario Party 4'')]]. If this proposal doesn't pass, all of these would get their identifiers removed.
:I'm staunchly against using the fugly ass gray and grayer tables across all articles and I'm definitely perring LTQ's suggestion for themes. I like the red header in the Super Mario World article and the green header in the Yoshi's Island article, it's deliberately done to match the nav templates the articles use and I'd be in full support of making tables be consistent with that. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:51, October 24, 2024 (EDT)


There are a ton of tables on here that use STRONG, EXTREME colours in attempt to look flashy but just end up being really hard to read, and I think above all else those need to go. Colour should be used very sparingly. I came across this recently looking at the MK8 Color Scheme tables for [[Standard Kart]] and [[Standard Bike]]. When you see things like '''{{color|lightcoral|Pink}}''', '''{{text outline|{{color|#E0E0E0|White}}}}''', '''{{color|#E6CC00|Medium yellow}}''', '''{{color|gold|Yellow}}''', '''{{color|lawngreen|Chartreuse}}''', '''{{color|#F2DFA6|Light-gold}}''', '''{{text outline|{{color|#F2DFA6|light-gold}}}}''' and especially '''{{color|#FF6633|In}}{{color|lawngreen|k}}{{color|deeppink|l}}{{color|blue|in}}{{color|#990099|g}}{{color|#00E6CC|s}}''', it's murder on the eyes... [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 04:45, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
:Hmm, would it be acceptable if we kinda did {{iw|inkipedia|Template:Ink|what Inkipedia does with ink colors}}, and have a colored square show before the color terms? {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:31, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': November 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT
:e.g. <span style="width: 1rem; height: 1rem; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 0.4rem; background-color:lightcoral">&nbsp;</span> Pink, <span style="width: 1rem; height: 1rem; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 0.4rem; border: 1px solid #000000; background-color:#E0E0E0">&nbsp;</span> White, <span style="width: 1rem; height: 1rem; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 0.4rem; background-color:#E6CC00">&nbsp;</span> Medium yellow, <span style="width: 1rem; height: 1rem; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 0.4rem; background-color:gold">&nbsp;</span> Yellow, <span style="width: 1rem; height: 1rem; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 0.4rem; background-color:lawngreen">&nbsp;</span> Chartreuse, <span style="width: 1rem; height: 1rem; display: inline-block; vertical-align: middle; border-radius: 0.4rem; background-color:#F2DFA6">&nbsp;</span> Light-gold. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:55, October 24, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|OmegaRuby}} the guidelines stipulate to "save coloring text and table cells for cases where it aids in reading data in some way." The colors used on those tables provide quick distinction between ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' and ''New Super Luigi U'', so I don't think they would be impacted by this proposal. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 11:32, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
====Support====
:I hold my opposition on the idea of any tables not being colorful at all, regardless if it assists reading data or distinguishes things - like I said, while I believe there should be consistency in tables in wiki articles I do not believe more bland, grayscale tables should be pushed when adding a dash of color or an image representing a subject doesn't exactly harm readability if implemented correctly. I do know that the proposal pushes for encouragement towards this sort of standard, but I feel as if even the simple suggestion will sway many editors into setting this as a standard. <small>I am also personally a fan of the pretty tables Doc has made, but looking at them from a readability standpoint I do know for sure they're a little ''too'' flashy and would hurt specifically the mobile wiki experience.</small>--{{User:OmegaRuby/sig}} 08:28, October 25, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.


{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I question why exactly you keep bringing up the fact that you have a degree in web design and art in each of these table proposals as though it serves an argumentative point. I do not feel as though it tends to add much to the conversation, nor do I feel that anyone cares. Obviously it is good to have a level of professional training in a subject, however it comes across less as a point in your favor, and more as something you choose to flex whenever anyone disagrees with you on the matter of these tables, which hurts your arguments if anything. Personally as someone who uses a wiki, I would prefer information be conveyed in a simple manner across all the devices I use, and I would prefer that information be accessible and easy to reference in text form - which images hinder. I don't really care if someone with a degree says otherwise, because I know what I prefer - and many members seem to prefer the same thing with regards to simplified tables. Just bringing up your degree as an argument and excuse to ignore feedback does not make people impressed, just annoyed and like they're being talked down to when art is a completely subjective field to begin with. --[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 15:05, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose====
:I say that because it illustrates why I'm this weird combination of artsy and HTML-based in what I do, not to act high-and-mighty. As well as my massive inferiority complex coupled by my inability to get a job due to the current job market, I need to have ''something'' going for me or I'm worthless - and I need to do ''something'' with that training or it was all a waste of time, and I don't want to have wasted 7 years of my life. I don't think it's important or authoritative by any means - that's the reason it's shrunk. Also I like pictures. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:08, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Altendo}} I don't see a need for this. If the names are similar, tophats containing the other pages can be placed on the pages with similar names. Identifiers are used to identify subjects with ''identical names'', not similar names.
::Doc, I say this with earnest respect for the struggle to find a job and an understanding that there are difficult times in our lives during which we may lean more heavily on external sources of validation, such as our accomplishments and creations, as founts of our self-worth. I also say this recognizing that, to some degree, there may be a bit of tongue-in-cheek exaggeration in your previous response. While I think it is commendable you have the self-awareness to recognize that some of your pointing to your degree again and again in these discussions arises from your struggles to land a job in an oversaturated market and the effect that has on your own perception of the effort you put into acquiring your degree, it would be prudent to further reflect on ''why'' it serves neither yourself nor the wiki to let those struggles color your decisions and discussions regarding wiki policy, and thus why it might rub others the wrong way to have the point repeated.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Altendo, this is what [[Template:Distinguish]] is for. We have to use identifiers for identical titles because the wiki can't have multiple pages with the same title, but that limitation doesn't exist if the titles are just similar. This would make the titles longer than they need to be, and I could also see this leading to disagreements about what's similar enough to count, if the examples are anything to go by. Easier to stick to the objectivity of only giving identical names identifiers. The proposal also doesn't specify what the "some articles" are where this has already been done, but I'm assuming they should be changed.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|Dine2017}} Per Hewer & I'd like to see the use of identifier kept to a minimum because it simplifies typing (URL, wikicode, etc.)
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Per Hewer. No need to extend the title just because of a couple letter difference. The identifiers are there for identical titles because it's impossible for wikipages to have the same name.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Hewer. Making this change would only cause more confusion, not less.


::There is nothing wrong with taking pride in the work you have done for the wiki. As I understand, you have done a great deal. It doesn't serve you, however, to rely upon that work - especially any single element of it - to seek validation of your major decisions in life through that work. The nature of a wiki is collaboration and change. If not in the near future, if not through the decisions in this proposal, at some point the tables you have contributed to will change, whether it be because the collective aesthetic sensibilities of the userbase have changed, or because of a technical update necessitating it, or because someone sees an opportunity to add further information, or for any number of reasons. Staking the value of your degree to tables bound to change is building an edifice of sand by the ocean and expecting it to stand for years. Don't tie the value of your degree to transient projects; find the intrinsic value of your degree, such as the knowledge you gained in pursuing it, and use that to bolster your perception of it and yourself.
====Comments====
I'm not sure why this is a problem in the first place, can you please elaborate? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:i just find it a bit unreasonable to expect people to remember the difference between two names that are identical in all but formatting, or essentially irrelevant word choice differences (in the case of Color coin and Colored coin, which have also been). this is especially true while editing; i had to verify whether Secret Course 1 was the SML2 one or the SMR one when writing the [[Secret exit]] article. without resorting to a literal, robotic interpretation of the rules, all of the articles i mentioned have functionally "the same name" as their pair, and there is precedent for adding identifiers to article names like these. [[Family Basic (microgame)]] recieved a differentiatior because a mere capitalization difference from [[Family BASIC]] [[Talk:Family_Basic_(microgame)#Moving_the_page|was deemed unreasonable]]. folks in the MarioWiki Discord server agreed with me when i asked if i should rename [[Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise)]] (previously just "Hot Air Balloon", with no hyphen and Air capitalized) to differentiate it from [[Hot-air balloon]]. [[Avalanche (obstacle)]] has an identifier to separate it from [[Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix)]] and [[Avalanche! (Mario Party 4)]], even though both of them have exclamation marks. [[Finish line (object)]] and [[Finish Line (microgame)]] get identifiers, even though they're capitalized differently. this is something we already do, the aim here is just to formalize it. [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 14:51, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::This proposal passing wouldn't mean you no longer have to check whether it's Secret Course 1 or 01, it'd just mean you now have to type an unnecessary identifier and pipe link it as well. I'd say it's different for finish line and Family BASIC where the only difference between titles is casing, as the search function on the wiki is case insensitive (and also, that proposal made [[Family Basic]] a redirect to [[Family BASIC]], so an identifier is still needed to distinguish from that). But in the other cases, we don't need the identifier. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:49, November 11, 2024 (EST)


::Further, while perhaps useful as additional context to other wiki editors explaining why your degree is so often referenced, this response also indicates this is not something which is actionable to other wiki editors. A self-described "inferiority complex" is a personal matter which only you can address, and the general wiki editor is not equipped to help you in this respect. If this is the driving factor behind your position, you may need to reevaluate whether it is truly germane to the best interests of the wiki.
==New features==
===Create a category for "catch-all articles"===
By "catch-all article" (tentative term; please suggest names) I mean those that describe elements that are not related, but share an article because they boil down to the same generic, '''often''' real world object. Many of them fit what the [[MarioWiki:Generic subjects|guidelines]] call a "generic subject". Examples of this kind of article are:


::So as not to stray too far off-topic, ultimately, I want to acknowledge that this is not necessarily your only reason for opposing this proposal and plainer tables, and it does not in any way invalidate or impact your other points. It is only a word of advice. You have shown the self-awareness to acknowledge what drives you to mention your degree; extend that thinking and see why, then, that is not relevant and should not be relevant to decisions and discussions on wiki policy. [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 16:33, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
*[[Hook]], which includes the object from ''[[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest]]'' and the hooks on poles from ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'';
:::Thanks. Again, I used small text to display it as not-too-relevant in the grand scheme of things but part of my basis. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:36, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
*[[Lift]], which includes the yellow lifts seen in ''Super Mario'' games, elevators from ''[[Donkey Kong Country]]'', Moving Platforms from ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis]]'', among others, all just basic platforms;
*[[Bubble]], which includes the underwater bubble from ''[[Super Mario 64]]'', the player-carrying bubble from ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'', the Bubble trap from ''[[Diddy Kong Racing]]'', among others;
*[[Banana]], which includes the bananas from the [[Mario Kart (series)|''Mario Kart'']] series, the bananas from the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)|''Donkey Kong Country'']] games, the bananas from ''[[Yoshi's Story]]'', among others;
*[[Heart (item)|Heart]], which includes the heart item from ''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'', the one from ''[[Donkey Kong Country Returns]]'', the one from ''[[Dr. Mario World]]'', among others.


As I said on the MarioWiki Discord, "i do believe practicality of a table should prevail over the aesthetics of a table. that way, the table can be easier to comprehend. the tables as of right now look more like they belong to a fansite [...] stop all these gaudy, garish tables". {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 21:50, October 24, 2024 (EDT)
They may also boil down to a similar ''fictional'' basic concept, which are their own distinct thing, despite all of them taking a similar form:  
:To be fair, this is a fansite. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:20, October 25, 2024 (EDT)


{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" style="width: 40%; float: right; text-align: center;"
*[[! Block]], which includes the red blocks from the [[Yoshi's Island (series)|''Yoshi's Island'' games]] games, the block-spawning yellow blocks from ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'', the ! Block switches from the [[Wario Land (series)|''Wario Land'' games]];
|- style="background: whitesmoke;"
*[[Poison Mushroom]], which includes the mushrooms from ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels]]'', the Poison Shroom item from the early [[Paper Mario (series)|''Paper Mario'' games]], among others;
!Example
*[[? Panel]], which includes the panels from ''[[Super Mario Kart]]'', the ones from ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', and others.
|-
|
{| class="wikitable"
!colspan=2 |Entry
!Name
!Value A
!Value B
|-
|style="width: 3px; background: #380000" |
!First entry
|First name
|1A
|1B
|-
|style="width: 3px; background: #9A0607" |
!Second entry
|Second name
|2A
|2B
|-
|style="background: #FEC724" |
!Third entry
|Third name
|3A
|3B
|-
|style="background: #ACBBC3" |
!Fourth entry
|Fourth name
|4A
|4B
|}


{| class="wikitable"
Compare subjects to which this category would '''not''' apply, like [[? Block]] or [[P-Switch]], where every reappearance of the subject is really a deliberate revisitation of a specific concept that already existed.
|-style="background: #380000; color: #fff;"
!Entry
!Description
!Another value
|-
!A
|This is the description A for the first entry.
|1A
|-
!B
|This is the description B for the first entry.
|1B
|-
!C
|This is the description C for the first entry.
|1C
|}


{| class="wikitable"
This category would be applied to articles on concrete subjects only (most of which, if not all, would be objects).
|-style="background: #9A0607; color: #fff;"
!Entry
!Description
!Another value
|-
!A
|This is the description A for the second entry.
|2A
|-
!B
|This is the description B for the second entry.
|2B
|-
!C
|This is the description C for the second entry.
|2C
|}


{| class="wikitable"
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro Hammer}}<br>
|-style="background: #FEC724; color: #000;"
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT
!Entry
!Description
!Another value
|-
!A
|This is the description A for the third entry.
|3A
|-
!B
|This is the description B for the third entry.
|3B
|-
!C
|This is the description C for the third entry.
|3C
|}


{| class="wikitable"
====Support====
|-style="background: #ACBBC3; color: #000;"
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} My proposal.
!Entry
!Description
!Another value
|-
!A
|This is the description A for the fourth entry.
|4A
|-
!B
|This is the description B for the fourth entry.
|4B
|-
!C
|This is the description C for the fourth entry.
|4C
|}
|}
In my opinion, Wikipedia has an elegant way of dealing with color in tables: they rarely use it for the visuals, but when they do, it just makes sense to have it. Take for example how they present seasons of TV shows in the example. Also, maybe people think that articles would become "too boring" or "too gray" if tables were ''completely'' standardized with no decoration at all and whatnot, but that happens because articles overuse tables in my opinion. But that's a different topic. {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 11:53, October 26, 2024 (EDT)
:These examples are indeed in line with the idea of generic themes I mentioned above. Of course, these examples are still on the tamer side and other styles can be added on top, but it does already look less dull while still maintaining clarity. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 15:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)


{{@|Waluigi Time}} Thank you for the suggestion. I wanted to read about horizontally aligned tables being a standard, but I couldn't find anything about it. Do you have a link you can share? {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 11:53, October 26, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose====
:Unfortunately I don't have a link on hand and wasn't able to find it myself - my knowledge on this admittedly comes from talking to people who are much more well-versed than me - but I've asked Lakituthequick to look into it. For what it's worth, the documentation I've looked at doesn't explicitly say anything about it, but all examples provided are horizontal. In the meantime, a few points in favor of horizontal alignment (in other words, one subject per row instead of per column):
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't see how such a category would be useful, and I don't like that it's pretty subjective and is based on a trait shared by the articles rather than the objects themselves. Even if there was value in distinguishing these pages, I don't think a category like this is the way to do it.
:*It preserves the natural left-to-right reading flow used by the rest of our content. I think screen readers also do this, so a vertical alignment ends up being especially confusing for anyone using one, which isn't good for accessibility.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Is [[History of Mario]] a catch-all article because it covers both a fictional character and [[Bob Hoskins]]? We would have to have that sort of debate for too many articles to count. This is too subjective and doesn't really accomplish anything.
:*Only horizontal tables can be sorted, since that function works off of the headings.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Unnecessary, and the word "generic" alone is unclear whether it goes by the definition of real-life or ''Super Mario''.
:*The code is much easier to understand and edit since all the information on one subject is kept together neatly. (e.g. Horizontally, you get Mario grouped with all of his stats in a game. Vertically, you're just left with a bunch of character names, and their stats are scattered in multiple chunks further down the page.) Incidentally, this criticism is what created that "grid of infoboxes" layout you mentioned to preserve the column alignment.
#{{User|Arend}} Honestly, the inclusion of fictional items like Poison Mushroom, ! Block and ? Panel would make it more confusing for me what a "catch-all article" is supposed to be; if it's supposed to be about generic subjects, then their inclusion would definitely muddy the concept quite a bit. Not to mention that the term "catch-all article" isn't clear enough as it is.
:So if I was mistaken on this being an explicit standard, it still seems like best practice, at least. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:22, October 26, 2024 (EDT)
::Can confirm this; additionally, web standards are just written in such a way that tables have headers and footers at the top and bottom, respectively (it is worth noting that wikicode doesn't support separating [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/thead header], [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/tbody body], and [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/tfoot footer] elements in a table – heck, the parser actively rejects those elements when used directly). In print, this is not so much of an issue. ''Technically'' it is probably possible to rotate a table by 90° while maintaining the said pros, but this likely involves throwing a bunch of CSS (hacks) at it that require work to look good in each instance and may not be worth it in most cases. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 15:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
{{br}}


==New features==
====Comments====
''None at the moment.''
My gut reaction is that I disagree that the Poison Mushroom and Lift articles encompass generic subjects. They are supported as discrete in the paratext for these games. But even if narrowed to articles I agree are generic, it is not inherently clear to me what the benefit of having a "catch-all category" would be. My general view is that there are quite a few subjects that we consider to be generic which really are not. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:45, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:What would be some subjects you don't consider generic? My case for the Lift is that it's an article that encompasses almost all types of flat, moving platforms (a basic platforming game object), many even with their own distinct names; I believe you could even argue for some of the versions to get their own articles. And yeah, I agree that there's no huge benefit to having this category, as it would be there mostly for the sake of acknowledgement that "this article does not describe the history of a single idea, but it's instead an aggregation of the histories of various ideas that fit under this umbrella". {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 16:25, November 10, 2024 (EST)


==Removals==
==Removals==
Line 209: Line 147:


==Changes==
==Changes==
===Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates===
===Move "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to "Peach" and "Daisy"===
Navigational templates are one of this wiki's best features. They're a really convenient way to get around the wiki. However, one common pitfall of the templates is bloat, in particular in the form of links to subjects that do not have dedicated articles. I have previously made [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/66#Trim Super Smash_Bros. navigational templates|a proposal about this subject]] specifically in the context of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, but the problem extends to navigational templates across the entire wiki.
Earlier this year, I made [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|a proposal]] suggesting that the article "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy". That proposal was rejected, with one of the main reasons being that people were concerned about the inconsistency this would cause with Princess Peach. Since then, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|another similar proposal]] has passed that suggested moving the Koopaling articles to just their first names. So, I would like to suggest once again that I think "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy", except that this time I'm also including the option to move "Princess Peach" to "Peach".


In principle, navigational templates should be '''directories of articles on the wiki'''. What advantage does it give the reader for [[Template:WWMI]] to have a whole section dedicated to eighteen separate links to subsections of [[Form Stones]] on ''top'' of a link to the main article itself? Why does [[Template:Humans]] link to all seven individual members of [[List of show hosts in All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.|List of show hosts in ''All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.'']] individually? Does the already crowded [[Template:Super Mario games]] really need to use precious space on a link to [[List of unreleased media#Tesla Mario Kart game|a two-sentence section]] about a theoretical game that Elon Musk claims to have failed to have pitched to Nintendo?
This proposal is ''not'' suggesting that we stop using these titles for these characters ''completely''. We should continue to do as we have done: use whatever name is used in a specific work when talking about a character's appearance in that work. I am only suggesting that the articles themselves be moved to "Peach" and "Daisy", which I believe to be their ''primary'' names.


I propose that, across the board, '''all subpage and redirect links on all navigational templates should be either removed or replaced'''. (''Red links'' are relatively fine, as long as the things they don't link to theoretically ''should'' be articles that just haven't been made yet. Edge cases like "[[Unnamed Worlds A-C Human]]" should be decided case-by-case in [[Template talk:Humans#Unnamed Worlds A-C Human|the relevant talk pages]].)
====The case for moving Daisy's article====
You can read my full argument for Daisy in my previous proposal about this subject, so I'll be brief here. My key point is that '''Daisy has never been called Princess Daisy in any game as her primary English name'''. It's certainly not an ''un''official title by any means, but she is and always has been called "Daisy", with no honorific, considerably more often and more prominently than her full title.


'''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br>
====The case for moving Peach's article====
'''Deadline''': October 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT
The case for Peach is much weaker than the case for Daisy. Unlike Daisy, Peach is actually called by her full title in-game as her primary English name sometimes. In fact, as was pointed out in the comments of the previous proposal, Nintendo has [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/puzzles/jigsaw-puzzle-princess-peach-daisy-rosalina/ on occasion] used the names "Princess Peach" (with the honorific) and "Daisy" (without) together.


====Remove the extra links from navigational templates====
Nonetheless, her highness is called "Peach" in-game considerably more often than "Princess Peach". (To be clear, my point is not that she's ''never'' called "Princess Peach", just that "Peach" appears to be her ''primary'' in-game name, which is what the [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policy]] recommends.) I believe the strongest example here is ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]'', which uses "Peach" despite having no shortage of playable drivers with excessively unweildy names.
#{{User|JanMisali}} As proposer.
#{{User|Hewer}} To be honest, the main reason I'm supporting this is because I hate how cluttered [[Template:Super Mario games]] is with useless links, and this would help solve that problem. We don't need to list every single game to ever have been pitched there.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This makes sense to us. It's much easier to just list a page link once and only once.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} When I think about it, it's an extreme stretch to e.g. list [[Mario Chase]] on the [[Template:Super Mario games|list of ''Super Mario'' games]] just because it was a reworked demo, or to give real estate to ''[[List of unreleased media#Mario's Castle|Mario's Castle]]'', a concept so nebulous that it is covered by a list article in a grand total of two sentences. I feel more ambivalent about entries that are clearly their own games, such as ''[[Mario Party 4#Arcade|Dokidoki Mario Chance!]]'' or ''[[Reflex Rally#Browser game|Reflex Rally]]'', but those could be split on a case-by-case basis if necessary.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} If we're not allowed to link redirects, how could our templates have redirect links?
#{{User|Jdtendo}} No need to clutter navboxes with useless links.


====Do nothing====
'''Proposer''': {{User|janMisali}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Comments====
====Move both princesses====
Wait, that ANN thing is a page? I was unaware. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:51, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|JanMisali}} First choice, as proposer.
:A page that's linked to on nearly 900 (!!) other pages! But since those links are hidden in a big bloated alphabetical list of characters (only most of which have actual articles), it's not nearly as visible of an article as it otherwise would be. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 19:09, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Tails777}} Primary choice. Even if Peach uses her title more often, MANY games usually relegate to just calling the princesses by their names without their titles. And since Bowser is also referred to as just "Bowser" over "King Bowser" (a titled name used about as often as Princess Peach), I feel all three can just use their names without titles.
::When I made that proposal not too long ago on that game, my idea was a page for each since they're all based on real people and look different despite having the same role (like the people in Mario is Missing and the NES Mario's Time Machine). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:13, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Only choice, per proposal. I was part of the opposition to the previous proposal, but this one fixes the issue I had with it. And anyway, in basically any game where Peach is playable, the thing written under her on the character select is just "Peach", same as Daisy, so this feels like the natural solution.
:::That sounds perfectly reasonable. If/when those dedicated articles ''are'' created, then including links to them in Template:Humans would make sense. As it stands now, of course, linking to one list article several times is just messy and unhelpful. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 19:20, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} "Princess" is just a title of Peach's name, and most appearances refer to her as simply Peach. The name for "Daisy" is very seldomly preceded by "Princess". Compare to Dr. Mario, where the "Dr." is an inherent part of his name, rather than a full title.
#{{User|Altendo}} If we can remove names from Sonic characters, the Koopalings, and even named identifiers like [[Grodus|Sir]] and [[Bobbery|Admiral]], there is no reason to ''not'' do this. Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, and the original proposal that spurred this one.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Things are headed in this direction, let's rip the bandage off.
#{{User|Arend}} I'm more comfortable with removing the "Princess" title from both articles rather than just Daisy's. Yes, Peach is often called "Princess Peach", but I find it comparable to Koopa minions referring to Bowser as "Lord Bowser" or "King Bowser" (or, in the case of game titles such as ''Super Princess Peach'' or ''Princess Peach Showtime'', it's comparable to the ''Super Mario'' games, which bear this title even if there's no Super Mushrooms to turn Mario into Super Mario).
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Fine, second choice.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per all.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|WayslideCool}} Per proposal. Consistent with how we've handled this sort of thing in other contexts, would feel weird to make an exception here specifically.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} First choice, per proposal. The princess titles for both characters can definitely be seen as their full names, but it seems to occupy a similar space to "King Bowser" in most games.</strike><br>
<strike>#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Altendo, specifically</strike>


Speaking of that "Unnamed Worlds A-C Human", has anyone attempted a thorough search through the history of ''All Night Nippon'' to identify the guy? As I said on the relevant talk, I ''assume'' it's also a radio host, since all the other Toad replacements are hosts as well, but I can't say with certainty (might as well be a higher-up at Fuji TV) {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:13, October 25, 2024 (EDT)
====Only move Peach====


===Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots===
====Only move Daisy====
I want to preface this by saying this proposed change will NOT be a one-person job to go back and change all instances of uploaded images. This will be more a general guideline going forward, and a thing anyone who wants to help can do without feeling like it might be unnecessary or unwanted. If this succeeds, the only immediate change needed to be considered "put into effect" is an edit to the image policy, though there will probably be a lot of quality tags for blatantly off colors.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, as proposer.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Second choice, since Daisy has stronger reason to be moved.
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary choice. Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" far less than Peach is referred to as "Princess Peach", with some modern games still using Peach's title. Daisy is almost always just referred to as "Daisy".
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per the case being made for Daisy. Games and other media as recent as ''Princess Peach Showtime'' and the Mario Movie alternate between naming Peach with and without the honorific, so MarioWiki:Naming cannot enforce one over the other based on recency, frequency, or source priority. None of this can be said about Daisy, however. Some have argued that "Daisy" is chosen for functional purposes within games, i.e. is an attempt to keep the character's name short in areas where you can allocate a piece of text only so much memory--and I'd understand the argument, if it weren't for cases like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)", "Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer)", and "Purple Koopa (Freerunning)" which push that memory limit much further than "Princess Daisy" ever could. I also question why the naming scheme of either character has to remain consistent with the other just for the sake of it; if their patently similar appearance and roles is the sole thrust behind this point of view, what's stopping [[Rosalina]] from being moved to "Princess Rosalina", then? That's an official title, too. Better lock in and make the facts readily apparent on the fan encyclopedia.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne. I see the argument for moving Peach as well, but feel more strongly that Daisy should be moved since she's rarely called "Princess Daisy".
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice. We need to do ''something'' about Daisy, at least.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Koopa con Carne.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Secondary choice, Daisy is pretty much never referred to as "Princess Daisy" as her primary name.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per Koopa con Carne.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all. I voted on the other one so that both Princesses could not get changed, but I'm also going to vote this because I agree that Daisy should just be called Daisy, specifically.


For context of this, the NES and the Japanese FamiCom/Disk System do not have a "native" hard-coded palette. As such, different machines display different colors. However, a ''majority'' of contemporary televisions in the NTSC region (which includes both Japan and America, so where the FamiCom and the NES were initially respectively developed - sorry PAL pals) would display them with a particular muted palette. Many early computer-based emulators instead displayed an extremely bright palette with colors that tended to clash with each other, which is still present on many old images on the site. Even a few today are like that, such as FCEUX, which while great for ripping tiles, has a very odd color display.
====Keep both princesses the same====
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Stop shortening names! Seriously, I knew this was next after the Koopaling proposal.
#{{User|Mario}} I don't think any these moves are great (especially the one where "Shadow the Hedgehog" was shortened, I dislike that one). They greatly hinder searches on the wiki (in Peach's case, it's going to conflict with the fruit), and more people online are going to search "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to find the character. What these moves are going to do, like with those older name moves (which I am ''not'' on board with) is going to have searches rely on redirects. I'm not sure how much SEO and search engine discoverability is going to be impacted (Porple confirmed with me on Discord that it will certainly hinder discoverability on search engines but it's not catastrophic, just something to keep in mind) but I think there is a great reason we chose [[Chuckster]] over Pianta Thrower. These are distinct, recognizable names. Don't fix what isn't broken, and the current method of piping and using redirects for the shortened, overlapping names seemed to serve us well enough.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Mario. I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. Some of these make sense (E. Gadd is rarely called Elvin, the Koopalings' full names seem to be mostly phased out these days), but the Sonic proposal was a misstep IMO. Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it. I feel less strongly about Daisy, admittedly.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Upon further thought and seeing Mario and Waluigi Time's votes, I'm inclined to think that moving pages like this is probably not such a wise idea, especially as it hurts searchability. I've removed my original vote for merging both and now consider this my primary one, though I think that moving Daisy would still be alright with me.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Yeah, no; per all. We'd need a counterproposal... That Sonic proposal already was a pretty bad enough decision as-is and this... this is no different.
#{{User|MeritC}} Per all; first of all, in terms of a fan managed encyclopedia like this, it's still the best route to keep the "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" article titles for this Wiki, even though certain and recent games like the sports, kart racing, and Mario Party games just address the two as "Peach" and "Daisy" in their names. Plus, in terms of linking their names to the respective articles, we're already making sure that "Peach" links to the "Princess Peach" article and "Daisy" links to the "Princess Daisy" article anyway.
#{{User|Arend}} Secondary choice, the current names are fine too.
#{{User|Dwhitney}} Per all. Also, Daisy is referred to as Princess Daisy in ''Mario Tennis Aces''.
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Per all, in particular Mario and WT. As for the SEO point, while that certainly does matter (even outside of "corporate" contexts), in this case it's just clearer to denote the princesses with their titles. SEO happens to be a happy by-product of that.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. Since these proposals are made with following the rules in mind, then the obvious alternative is to change the rules. The naming guidelines have nothing about full names and titles, that should be changed so that conditions pertaining to them to allow use of extending their titles based on official material over (identifiers). Let's use Princess Peach as an example. "Princess Peach" was first seen in Yoshi's Safari then later in Mario 64 and here and there ever since. Thus "Princess" is part of Peach and should be kept as "Princess Peach" to distinquish from Peach the fruit. Same with Roy Koopa and Roy from Mario Golf, the latter doesn't really need an identifier if the former is moved back to his full name. On the other hand, I've been also thinking such a policy would have to be restrictive: "Princess Peach Toadstool" wouldn't be legit because it wasn't seen in Yoshi's Safari first, "King Bowser" wouldn't be either for similar reasons, "Boo Diddly" wouldn't count because  it's only seen in Mario 3 and its remakes, and Mollusque-Lanceur's full name won't because it comes from a secondary source and its length may be an issue. There's probably a lot more that needs to be figured out, those are just examples that came to my mind.
#{{User|MCD}} Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. And don't move my username to just Sophie.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all, but not strongly.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all. Removing the princess prefix could confuse them for the actual fruit and the actual flower, respectively. We have also an article about the LM ghost knows as Daisy. The "Peach Blossom" move involves Peach summoning literal Peaches, to give an example. Better to keep them "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy".
#{{User|Ray Trace}} I really want to move Sonic back to Sonic the Hedgehog and Shadow the Hedgehog.
<strike>#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Waluigi Time</strike>


MESEN and NEStopia are NES emulators that display that more "accurate" (for lack of better term) color. It is widely recommended by sources such as The Spriters Resource and The Cutting Room Floor as a good way to ensure color consistency. Even Nintendo themselves seems to prefer its colors, as official emulators like the Nintendo Switch Online use that type of palette. I think we should start prioritizing it going forward as a general rule so there's more consistency to the uploads color and quality.
====Princess Comments, Peach====
@SeanWheeler: Why is shortening names a bad thing? If the shortened name is the more current title of a character or game, shouldn't the article be moved to the more current title? The length of the titles of the characters is not the main issue here; it's how current those titles are. [[User:Mari0fan100|Mari0fan100]] ([[User talk:Mari0fan100|talk]]) 20:41, November 9, 2024 (EST)


For an example of what I am talking about, see the upload history for {{File link|SMB Goomba Sprite.gif}}. A lot of the fixes have already been historically done; I myself worked a lot on the ''Famicom Grand Prix'' and ''Golf'' series images. Most of what's left are random images in larger platforming games as well as assorted more obscure games (looking at you, ''Wario's Woods''), as well as newer uploads from people using older sources without realizing or caring about this issue (which is the main thing this proposal hopes to address).
@Mario: Given "Peach" and "Daisy" are very commonly used names, and also shorter (thus easier to type), I can't imagine it being that bad for searches. The shortened names are also "distinct, recognizable names", and the ones Nintendo is fine to use for the characters (as well as what I usually hear fans call them), so why shouldn't we follow suit (especially given all the other renaming proposals, some of which, e.g. [[Talk:Bobbery#Changing Admiral Bobbery to just Bobbery|Bobbery]] and [[Talk:TEC#Move to TEC|TEC]], had literally no opposition)?<br>@Waluigi Time: I would argue Princess Daisy isn't really "still in frequent use". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:13, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:I think if I wanted to look up the Mario character named "Daisy" in Google, I would use "Princess Daisy" to try to get more results that aren't daisies. Mario's popular, but not the center of all reality. (Though a company selling BB guns somehow beats out the plant.) Google suggests I may also want to use "Daisy mario". Bobbery is unique enough to be the main topic of that name. TEC has technology companies beat out the character unless "TEC-XX" is used.
:Super Mario Wiki appears to be far enough ahead in results that if Google recognizes the search is for a character this site is first up, even in cases like Bobbery, TEC, and Ludwig. But I'm no search engineer, so I don't know if changing the article names can impact this.[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 06:29, November 10, 2024 (EST)
::I was more referring to searches on the wiki itself. Google searches shouldn't really be what determines page names in my opinion, or we'd have a good case to move [[Pauline]] to "Mayor Pauline" (or to add "mario" in brackets to a ton of article titles). Either way, I feel like having to search "daisy mario" instead of "princess daisy" (as I imagine many people already do) isn't that big a deal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:44, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:::As I alluded to, my reasoning mostly concerns Peach, but I don't really want to put my official support behind a Daisy move either, which is why I chose that option. IMO, external searchability absolutely should be something taken into consideration when it's relevant, but not the deciding factor. At the end of the day, a wiki is here for its readers, so let's not make it needlessly harder on them to find things if we can help it. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:56, November 10, 2024 (EST)
::::I'd think using the name the character most commonly goes by would make it more intuitive to find. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:15, November 10, 2024 (EST)
::::I'm not convinced that switching to a shorter name has any negative influence on external searchability regardless of if that should be a priority or not. We're still on the front page of Google results for "Shadow the Hedgehog wiki", and the only results that come up before our "Shadow (character)" article are from Wikipedia and dedicated ''Sonic'' wikis. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 13:51, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::I don't understand why the topic of SEO is still part of the debate. It's a misplaced priority. This site is a community-run educational resource, not a corporate product that you're incentivized to optimize every little aspect of in the name of clicks. Look at Fandom--outwardly, it provides the former, but it's also an ad-ridden hellhole artificially planted on the front page of Google results with no regard to the quality or accuracy of the content herein. I'm questioning whether it's worth compromising accuracy so the wiki could compete with such actors. Not to say this site would exist without traffic and participation at all, every project needs funding and other manners of support, but, like<br>guys,<br>This is the biggest resource on the Internet for the most popular video game franchise on the planet.<br>Do you really believe losing 0.005% of total searches because Glup Shitto got renamed to the less popular but more accurate "Shart Faqeer" is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:33, November 10, 2024 (EST), [[Special:Diff/4429048|edited]] 10:55, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::I think "corporate product" is a bit of a misread. Rather, there is little value in maintaining an encyclopedia that people cannot find. I do not know if it impacts this particular case (i.e. when I last searched "wendy mario" or "wendy o. koopa" on Google, [[Wendy|our article]] still shows up near or at the top, regardless of name), but I do not think it is invalid to keep in mind.
::::::I think it is worth keeping in mind that the Super Mario Wiki has different goals than a character-selection screen or a level-selection screen, which typically prefer simple truncated names. ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' refers to a boss as "[[Larry]]" in [[Larry's Torpedo Castle|one context]] and as "Larry Koopa" in [[Larry's Groundless Battle|another]]. An encyclopedic reference that encompasses many series and subjects may similarly best support its information by adopting fuller names with discretion. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:22, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The character select screen name shortening argument has already been addressed: names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)" are longer than "Princess Daisy", yet the former is used while the latter is not. Clearly Nintendo just has a preference for the shorter name, so we should too. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:59, November 10, 2024 (EST)
::::::::This is not consistent though. On the character-selection screen in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'', you can select "[[Yoshi (species)|Light-Blue Yoshi]]." The standees for this character's name is truncated as "[https://youtu.be/9kJ2eVPxu1w?si=dQ3ZlK_uMZ3TSHS4&t=342 L. Blue Yoshi]." The ''Star Fox'' protagonist goes by "[[Fox]]" on the character-selection screen for the ''Super Smash Bros.'' titles, but goes by "Fox McCloud" on the costume list for ''[[Super Mario Maker]]''. Our pink princess character goes by "[[Princess Peach]]" on the [[:File:Princess Peach Showtime Box Art.jpg|box for her standalone game]], and simply as "Peach" in the game itself. Is it invalid to suggest whether a character goes by a truncated or full name is really context dependent, and less about the phasing out of monikers or surnames for certain characters? If the former, is Super Mario Wiki inherently not the platform where full names would be helpful? And if it is not, why? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:07, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::The length of a character's name can undoubtedly be subject to technical limitations in a game. I personally just don't think this is necessarily the case with Daisy's name as of today, and my view is that the wiki should be observing what the most current official consensus on those names is. The standees in ''Wonder'' are a highly particular instance of name rendering even within the game; the character selection screen [https://youtu.be/Q4Gp9aZKwEk?t=7 otherwise uses "Light-Blue Yoshi" and "Daisy" simultaneously], and I'd hazard a guess that players are more likely to make better note of those than how they are rendered in the standee menu. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:41, November 10, 2024 (EST), edited 19:50, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::::As people have related in this discussion, Mario Wiki tends to be pushed forward in Google results for a Mario character. It is decidedly not an encyclopedia people cannot find. Porplemontage can probably conjure some projections, he has the data for this sort of thing after all, but I'm confident given the wiki's size and popularity that Mario Wiki will remain in the top search results for "peach mario" and "daisy mario" whether the characters retain or lose their mantle titles. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:04, November 10, 2024 (EST), edited 19:12, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:::::{{@|JanMisali}} Same with googling "shadow sonic wiki". Even just "shadow wiki" still brings up his Mario Wiki article on the second page on my end, which is pretty impressing considering the breadth of coverage either of the words "shadow" and "wiki" have on the Internet. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:48, November 10, 2024 (EST)


(As a side note, I spent yesterday evening collecting the NEStopia colors for ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' by playing through the whole game and applying them to the pre-existing level maps (which were ripped originally in one of those odd bright emulators), so assistance with applying them to the innumerable screenshots, sprites, and animations for the game would be greatly appreciated.)
@MeritC: "We'd have to change links" is never a good argument. If this passes, a bot will take care of fixing all the links. That's how we were able to [[Talk:Super Mario (franchise)#Move to "Super Mario (franchise)" -- proposal|rename the "Super Mario (franchise)" page]], probably one of the most linked to pages on the entire wiki, with no issue. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:59, November 10, 2024 (EST)


'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
{{@|Dwhitney}} Where in ''Mario Tennis Aces'' is the name "Princess Daisy" used? I can't find any evidence of her being called anything but "Daisy" in that game. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 10:27, November 11, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': November 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT
:It's right there in the beginning of the story mode. [https://youtu.be/bQYgz5RlAQI?t=315 This video, around the 5:15 time mark]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:19, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::Ah, missed that. Thanks! But regardless, it's definitely not her ''primary'' name in that game. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:25, November 11, 2024 (EST)
It should also be noted that [https://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/Super_Mario_Land_-_Manual_-_GB.pdf the ''Super Mario Land'' manual] consistently refers to Daisy as "Princess Daisy" in the story section and gameplay section; the character section is the only place in the manual where she's referred to as just "Daisy" (plus mistakenly calling her "Daisy Princess" as well). The manual of [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_GameCube/Manual/formated/Mario_Kart-_Double_Dash_-_Nintendo.pdf Mario Kart: Double Dash] refers to her as "Princess Daisy" once, too. I get that these aren't exactly "in-game" materials, but that should put "Princess Daisy" on the same level as the Koopalings' full names.<br>Do ''Super Smash Bros.'' games count too, btw? [https://youtu.be/U3wCxICjLPM?si=UEy9xJJ3Y3xX9Ee6 Palutena has referred to her as "Princess Daisy"]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:43, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:I mentioned ''Smash Bros.'' in my previous proposal about this. She's called Daisy everywhere else in that game, including elsewhere in that same Palutena's Guidance conversation. But yes, I agree that "Princess Daisy" is a name used on the same level as the full names of the Koopalings, and I think we should use it the same way we use the Koopalings' full names (ie. not in the article title). {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:25, November 11, 2024 (EST)


====Supportopia====
@SmokedChili: There is no universe where peach the fruit that made minor appearances in five games could get naming priority on this wiki over Peach the major character with hundreds of appearances. That's why [[Peach]] already redirects to the character, and [[Peach (fruit)]] already has an identifier - shortening the name wouldn't change that. The same goes for Roy - the Mario Tennis character always had an identifier for years before Roy Koopa's name was shortened, because the former is significantly less prominent and less likely to be what people searching "Roy" are looking for. (Also, Mollusque-Lanceur's full name recently appeared in Nintendo Music, which I don't think is a "secondary source", and [[The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens|length wouldn't be an issue]].) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - De vunderbar vald of color. Co''RR''ECT color.
:Why would the fruit need an identifier if Peach being in the "Princess Peach" page frees up the "Peach" page? And why use conveniences this wiki made up over what's found in official material? Wiki-made identifiers should thus be used as sparingly as possible. And my argument for Mollusque-Lanceur is that by using naming priority, since his short name comes from the in-game music player while his full name comes from the Prima guide, the latter shouldn't be qualified for use as a page title even if it comes up later. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:13, November 14, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think utilizing a unified palette is a smart idea. It would look nice, unified, and would mitigate potential confusion as to how colors differ between subjects.
::The reason "Peach (fruit)" needs an identifier is that a user who goes to www.mariowiki.com and types "Peach" into the search bar is more likely to be looking for information about one of the main characters of the ''Super Mario'' franchise than the fruit. It's the same reason [[Mario 1 (level)]] needs an identifier. Even if the thing it's disambiguating itself from isn't the name the wiki actually uses for that subject, one subject is simply ''so much'' more notable than the other that we choose to disambiguate other articles from even its ''un''official names. This is a strictly positive thing for the user experience of anyone using this wiki, and I strongly disagree with the implication that we should stop considering "which subject is a user who searches for this term on this wiki more likely to be looking for?" to be a priority. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 14:25, November 14, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} The weirdly vibrant colors are a rare FCEUX L, as far as we're concerned, and it'd be nice to have some guidelines in place to encourage consistency.
:::The difference is that Mario 1 (level) references SMB (and even then adding an identifier sounds like an overreaction) while Peach got her name from the fruit. Your assumption also ignores the possibility that readers may know about peach fruits and/or call Peach "Princess Peach" in their heads regardless of how formal the source is, so the search result argument wouldn't be as reliable because how many actually search for "Peach" over "Princess Peach" when they want the character? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 04:55, November 17, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Though my ''Mega Man''-brained self prefers the FCEUX palette in the context of that series due to MisterMike's sprite rips as well as it being the basis of ''Mega Man 9'' and ''10''{{'}}s palette, this isn't a ''Mega Man'' wiki, so per all.
::::I think you're missing the point of identifiers and redirects a bit. Plenty of people would search "Peach" instead of "Princess Peach" (after all, it's shorter so easier to type), and I can't imagine the positives could outweigh the negatives of making it not redirect to the obviously more likely intended result. It would just harm the wiki's usability. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:11, November 17, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} It's better to use the most accurate colors to the original output, to match the accuracy of the resolution of game screenshots.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} TCRF standards FTW.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} it's worth noting that CRTs and LCDs display color differently, so a direct rip of what the nes displays to an LCD might not be properly accurate. however, if both TSR and TCRF recommend it, then i have to defer to their opinion
#{{user|wildgoosespeeder}} I have had Mesen [[User:Wildgoosespeeder/sandbox#NES/Famicom/Famicom Disk System/SNES/Satellaview|as a mention]] for years. It has the highest accuracy I have ever seen in an NES emulator. However I have always treated it as a fallback option to FCEUX. Reason being TASVideos.org availability. There is a section on TCRF about [[tcrf:Help:Contents/Taking Screenshots#NES|applying the correct color pallete when using FCEUX]].
#{{User|Mario}} I suppose there's no way to have all monitors display the exact colors uniformly, might worth documenting the colors.


====Opposeux====
{{@|SmokedChili}} Peach is not called "Princess Peach" at any point in ''Super Mario 64''. She is called "Princess Toadstool", "Peach", "the Princess", and "Princess Toadstool, Peach". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:48, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:For clarity, this is not true. According to [[List of Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS quotes|our own article]] Toad says "Hold on to your hat! If you lose it, you’ll be easily injured. If you lose it, look for the course where you lost it. Speaking of lost, Princess Peach is still stuck in the walls somewhere. Please help, Mario! Oh, you know there are secret worlds in the walls as well as in the paintings, right?" And in ''Super Mario 64 DS'', the narrator also refers to her as "Princess Peach." People should do with that what they will. "Peach" is still more commonly used in the game, but it is not in isolation from "Princess Peach." - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]])
::That article contains a mix of quotes from both ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Mario 64 DS''. [[ukikipedia:All text|The corresponding Ukikipedia article]], which has a direct textdump of the raw text files from the Nintendo 64 game, has the original dialogue and does not contain the name "Princess Peach".  {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 14:40, November 14, 2024 (EST)


====Commesents====
:We should most certainly revise our naming conventions, since it's warranting proposals for every character to be moved to just their first names. And now that we have the [[Sonic Drive-In|Sonic restaurant]], the hedgehog should definitely get his full name back. And with Shadow and Big, their full names would be better page titles than identifiers. And after opposing the proposal to add identifiers to similarly named pages, I might advocate for [[Peach (fruit)]] to get it's identifier removed just for the princess to keep her title. That page already has the {{Tem|About}} template linking to the princess anyway. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:52, November 13, 2024 (EST)
[https://tcrf.net/Help:Contents/Taking_Screenshots#NES Here's] the source on The Cutting Room Floor's preference for the MESEN/NEStopia palette, in case anyone needs it. Sorry if it's unnecessary, but I think the claim of the other websites' stances could've had links provided. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 15:47, October 20, 2024 (EDT)
::Are you suggesting that someone who types "Peach" into the search bar on mariowiki.com and presses enter is more likely to be looking for the fruit than the character? {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 00:29, November 14, 2024 (EST)
:Thank you, now I can actually use FCEUX without needing to back-and-forth between emulators. Maybe I can get back into ''U.S. Course''{{'}}s prize card again... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:01, October 20, 2024 (EDT)
::Sonic Drive-In also changes nothing, it's called Sonic Drive-In and not just Sonic. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:53, November 14, 2024 (EST)
:[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_Super_Mario_64_and_Super_Mario_64_DS_quotes&oldid=4407223#Toad Alright, whose responsible this?] Still, it's not like "Princess Peach" completely disappeared after being seen in Yoshi's Safari first. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:16, November 14, 2024 (EST)


{{@|SolemnStormcloud}} - Not to gossip but FR MisterMike'd be the best NES sprite ripper ever if not for exclusively using FCEUX palette. His ''Zelda'' 1 rips were... eyebrow-raising, to say the least, which is part of what inspired me to prioritize the NEStopia palette. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:58, October 20, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|LadySophie17}} To be clear, the purpose of this proposal is not simply a preference for shorter names. I wrote the proposal to move our article about [[The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens]] to her full title for the same reason I think it makes sense for our article about Daisy to be moved to "Daisy". We should prioritize the most common current primary name of a subject regardless of if that's a shorter name than their most formal full name ''or'' a longer name than what most fans would rather call them. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 14:07, November 14, 2024 (EST)
:I'm aware. My comment was a just a cheeky remark at the fact that simply "Sophie" is the most common current primary name of the subject that is me. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 14:19, November 14, 2024 (EST)
::Joke's on you, I'm writing a proposal for your name as we speak. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:23, November 14, 2024 (EST)


{{@|EvieMaybe}} - Note the "closest to contemporary NTSC display" thing, so that'd be close-to-CRT. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:16, October 22, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|PnnyCrygr}} We don't have an article about Daisy from ''Luigi's Mansion 2''. That character is covered in a subsection of a longer article. Lower on this very page there is currently a proposal that has literally no opposition that's suggesting that it's unnecessary to use the title to disambiguate between a subject that has an article and a subject that only has a subsection of an article. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 08:51, November 16, 2024 (EST)
:makes sense! i figured that by "contemporary" you meant an LCD or an OLED, thanks for clarifying [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 11:12, October 22, 2024 (EDT)
:Thanks for the heads-up. Now I remember. {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 09:07, November 16, 2024 (EST)


===Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually)===
Where did the "Drive-In" part of the name come from? The logo only has the word "Sonic" and every commercial I've seen simply called it Sonic. At least with Sonic the Hedgehog, his full name has been the title of many games and media, and he was called such quite frequently in his franchise. Sonic Drive-In is just advertised as Sonic. I only saw that full name as a wiki page title. If a crossover character has the same common name as a restuarant, who gets the short name? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:47, November 17, 2024 (EST)
More often than not, if you look at a game's list of references to other games, you'll find something about how so-and-so character reuses voice clips from so-and-so game. This has been bugging me for a while because these just aren't references. Nintendo has been reusing voice clips for multiple decades now, so this isn't anything new. When a new ''Mario Kart'' game comes out and some of the drivers reuse some wahoos or hurt sounds or whatever else from an old ''Mario Party'' game, it's not because the developers wanted to give a nod to that ''Mario Party'' game, it's because they had those clips on hand and could easily repurpose them instead of dragging the voice actor back into the recording booth. I propose removing reused voice clips from the references to other games/references in later games lists, with one exception that I'll get to shortly.
:The character? This is a problem this wiki has already solved. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 21:39, November 17, 2024 (EST)
::How had the wiki already solved that problem? By the fact that Sonic the Hedgehog was already moved to Sonic by the time the Sonic Drive-In got an article? Considering the Sonic Drive-In article is about Sonic's promotion of [[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]] in 2016, it was created eight years late. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 16:38, November 18, 2024 (EST)
:::The way the wiki solved the problem is that "Sonic" is the article about the character (and in fact already redirected to the article about the character before it was moved) and "Sonic Drive-In" is the article about the restaurant. Unless you're suggesting that we ''should'' change this (and I legitimately cannot think of a single good reason why we would), there isn't really anything else to say about the matter. That just factually is the solution that is currently in place to the problem being asked about. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 17:29, November 18, 2024 (EST)
:::Why do you bring up the Sonic Drive-In page being "eight years late" like it's relevant? Sonic the character was relevant to the Mario franchise years before Sonic the restaurant anyway. The idea that the character can't be called just "Sonic" despite generally being called that in his several Mario appearances but the restaurant that has an article because of one promotion in 2016 must be called just "Sonic" sounds biased to me. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:04, November 18, 2024 (EST)
::::Well, with the proposal to rename the princesses by their shorter more common referred names failing, it would be good to rethink some of the earlier renaming proposals. Especially the one about the crossover characters being moved, because I feel like a lot of these characters would lose their identity without their full names here, a few of them like Shadow got the unnecessary "(character)" identifier, because [[Shadow]] is a Super Mario RPG enemy, and there are still other users wanting to overturn that proposal. And if Zelda were to get her article back, I would want it to be consistent with Peach and Daisy. I do want to overturn that proposal that put the Smash characters on list pages, because I am not a fan of having articles stacked together as a list like we did with the Banjo and Conker series pages long ago, the sections for Mario characters and characters who made more Mario appearances linking to their own pages making those pages even less about the franchise we're about, and because of the amiibo having them appear in Super Mario Maker and other games. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:37, November 19, 2024 (EST)
:::::And yet proposals like [[Talk:Bobbery#Changing Admiral Bobbery to just Bobbery|this]], [[Talk:TEC#Move to TEC|that]], and [[Talk:Grodus#Move to Grodus|the]] [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|other]] passed with no opposition. Not sure how the Smash list pages are relevant, but the point of them is to cover the fighters not relevant enough to Mario for their own pages, so naturally they'll be some of the less Mario-relevant pages. If your problem is them not being relevant to Mario, I don't see how splitting all the characters back out will help. At this point I feel like outright deletion is probably the more likely eventual fate of those list pages, to be honest. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:54, November 20, 2024 (EST)
::::::Those list pages for the fighters aren't just covering Smash, but other appearances they had with Mario such as Super Mario Maker. Pit has so many Mario appearances that I'm wondering why he's on the Brawl list instead of getting his own article. The fighters who didn't appear with Mario outside of Smash would definitely be deleted, unless the majority votes to keep all of them. But I'm voting to split the ones with Mario cameos and delete the rest. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:16, November 20, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Those cameos are [[Talk:Costume Mario#Create articles for all Costume Mario characters|not notable enough to warrant their own articles]], though. You're suggesting that being in Smash doesn't automatically make a character relevant to Mario, but also that being in Smash is what makes a character whose other appearances are a few cameos worthy of an article. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:44, November 21, 2024 (EST)


For a particularly egregious example, here's all the "references" of this type currently listed on ''Super Mario Party''. Notice how vague these entries are and how many of them don't even specify which characters have clips reused.
===Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s)===
*''[[Super Mario Strikers]]'': Some of Hammer Bro's voice clips are reused from this game.
''Mario Kart Tour'' has quite the reputation on this wiki in terms of pages, at one time nearly forming the top ten of the largest pages here in terms of bit size. However, what was glossed over was the size of Tour's template, being large enough to hold several templates within itself, and making the page, should the user click on it, almost double in length, more so with the other templates open. Using [[DS DK Pass]] as an example, a page for a race course that doesn't have a lot of information on it making for a relatively quick read, is now nearly half taken up by the monstrously large ''Mario Kart Tour'' template.  
*''[[Mario Party 8]]'': Hammer Bro's artwork, as well as some voice clips, are reused from this game.
*''[[Mario Kart Wii]]'': Some voice clips are reused.
*''[[Mario Super Sluggers]]'': [...] Some voice clips are reused.
*''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'', ''[[New Super Mario Bros. 2]]'', and ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'': [...] Some voice clips are reused.
*''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'': Some of [[Yoshi]]'s voice clips are reused from this game.
*''[[Mario Kart 7]]'': Flutter's voice clips are recycled from [[Wiggler]]'s voice clips in this game.
*''[[Mario Party 9]]'': [...] Some voice clips are reused.
*''[[Mario Party: Island Tour]]'': [...] Some of Bowser Jr.'s voice clips are reused from this game.
*''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'': [...] Some voice clips are reused.
*''[[Mario Kart 8]]'': Some voice clips are reused from this game.
*''[[Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash]]'': Some of Mario's voice clips are reused from this game.
*''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'': [...] Some of [[Mario]] and [[Luigi]]'s voice clips are recycled.


The exception to this would be if a voice clip, within the context it appears in the game, is clearly a reference to another work. I'm not sure of any actual examples off the top of my head, but hypothetically, if Luigi reused some of the "MARIO!" voice clips from ''Luigi's Mansion'' in [[Luigi and the Haunted Mansion]] from ''Super Mario Galaxy'', that would probably be considered a reference. In this case, the entry should explain exactly what clip(s) are being used and what it is about the situation that makes it a reference. That leads me into what should probably be a good rule of thumb for this exception: if you can't explain why it's a reference beyond just being in that game, then it's probably not a reference.
A total of four sub templates exist within the ''Mario Kart Tour'' template: Characters (and their skins), Vehicle Parts, Courses, and Other (miscellaneous). For example, if the Courses template were split off and applied to DS DK Pass' page, it would make for a much more palatable experience for those looking for courses found in ''Tour'', rather than making the reader scroll for a centuries and looking for it amongst a sea of numerous skins and kart parts.  


'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|MightyMario}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 8, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Waluigi Time's support vote is reused from this proposal.
#{{User|MightyMario}} I heartily endorse this proposal.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} These voice clips are most likely used without their game of origin in mind.
#{{User|Tails777}} I kinda agree with this. I feel this would be a bit more organized too, so people don't have to scroll through loads of characters, karts and other things just to find the tracks section. I have found myself on numerous occasions jumping from track articles and with ''Tour's'' template, it was rather irritating searching through massive sections of characters and tours just to find tracks. I support this idea.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per both.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} We've split navigation templates for [[Template:NSMBW levels|much less]], this makes sense for the sheer amount of content in the game.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} A navigation template that buries content in an area larger than an entire computer screen defeats the purpose.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} ''[[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]]'': Mario's mustache is reused from this game.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Agreed with all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Repurposing an asset — voice clip or otherwise — is rarely a reference in isolation.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I ''swear'' this has already been proposed and passed....
#{{User|Arend}} I think this is more worth to be its own trivia subsection ("Reused assets"?) than treating it as a specific "reference" and lumping it among the more legit ones.
#{{User|Shadow2}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all. Reuse of assets isn't really a "reference" in the usual sense, as there's plenty of non-callback reasons to do so. We don't think the re-used Charles Martinet lines in the ''TTYD'' remake were done out of wanting to do a cameo from Charles, they probably just didn't feel like bringing Kevin back into the recording booth when they already had a cohesive library of voicelines from the original game. ;P
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|DesaMatt}} per all.
#{{User|Dark Jonathan}} I didn't know Tour templates gave so many problems, but hey, that's a good proposal.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all as This "reusal of voices" statement is getting done to death over and over again. And a reuse of assets is not an allusion/reference to something.
#{{User|BMfan08}} I was just thinking about this the other day when I was changing tense on tour articles. It's definitely a lot to take in, and it's also overlooked because people don't put into a template quite as much as they do a page. I agree with this idea.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} ThePowerPlayer's "Per all" vote is reused.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Per all.
#{{User|Cadrega86}}, the same also goes for generic artwork (so unless it's specifically stylized or features stuff specific to a single game/subseries). These are not references but just "lazy" asset re-usage.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} This will make page-by-page navigation of MKT articles more efficient or convenient. Supporting.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} The size of this nav template would make Wario proud, but I'm sure this complaint has already been forwarded to a lot of aspects of Mario Kart Tour content on this wiki.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Grunts, screams, and whoohoos aren't uttered with a specific game in mind and our articles shouldn't reflect that.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} This has been bugging me for a while. This is just asset reuse to save budget and because there's very few specific lines that need to be newly recorded.
#{{User|Mario}} Just because it was first heard in a game doesn't mean it was recorded for this game. It might be a stock sound that went unused and eventually found its way into a future game. Additionally there are clips that are better known in other games than the one it originated in. "That's-a so nice!" Is commonly heard when Mario clears a level in New Super Mario Bros., but this quote is first heard in Mario Kart Double Dash, barely audible in the Awards Ceremony. Unless the clip itself is made specifically for a game (Mario vs. Donkey Kong!!! Finding its way in a Mario Kart game as a store speaker or something) it's best not to list as a reference. That being said, there should be ways to list if voices have been reused.
#{{User|Tails777}} This is on par with referencing ''Super Mario Galaxy'' every time Rosalina appears. Pretty sure we had a proposal at some point opting to exclude these types of recurring things from the references section and this is just following in suit. Per proposal.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Hewer}} I think a game reusing assets like voice clips from a previous one is still worth noting, and the reference sections are a handy place to do it. I don't see why we must restrict the section to only when "the developers wanted to give a nod".
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Hewer. I do get that it's not an intentional reference per se, but this is still information worth documenting on the wiki (if a different place to note this information would be proposed, I'm all ears).


====Comments====
====Comments====
I do know Luigi's "Gotcha!" was made for ''Luigi's Mansion'' as a thing he says when he catches ghosts, then became a standard voice clip for him in 64DS and NSMB, despite no longer making as much sense there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:46, October 27, 2024 (EDT)
I think alternatively, they could be given different collapsible sections, like we do with the galleries template. But I agree it is overwhelmingly enormous. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:58, November 10, 2024 (EST)
 
We're talking about the navigation template at the bottom of these pages, right? Because that's the only Tour-related template on the DS DK Pass article (subpages notwithstanding) and it's indeed quite huge. If we do split it off into several subtemplates, I suppose it'd be comparable to various levels from specific platformer titles having a navbox template for themselves instead of sharing a primary nabvox template with the rest of that game's content (e.g. [[Super Bell Hill]] featuring {{tem|SM3DW levels}} instead of {{tem|SM3DW}}); or the existence of various navigation templates for the various microgames or minigames in specific ''WarioWare'' or ''Mario Party'' title. So while it's atypical for us to split ''Mario Kart''-specific nav templates, it's not unheard of for us to split off nav templates in the first place. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:04, November 10, 2024 (EST)
 
===Allow certain proposals to close after one week===
Alright, hear me out.
 
Recently, a [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Revise_how_long_proposals_take:_.22IT.27S_ABOUT_.28how_much.29_TIME_.28they_take.29.22 proposal] has passed, making all proposals last for 2 weeks instead of 1. Though I was opposed to this change, I can definitely now see the benefit of giving proposals more discussion time. However, not all proposals need that extra week. Some proposals leave zero room for discussion, because everyone already agrees with the proposer. So the proposal just sits for another week and the outcome obviously isn't going to change. I propose to introduce a rule that would close proposals with '''high participation''' and '''unanimous consensus''' after one week, like it was before that. Let me explain:


#If a proposal has 10+ votes with no opposition or 12+ votes with 1 oppose vote by the end of the first week, it passes.
#Same applies to proposals with unanimous opposition, 12+ oppose votes with only 1 support vote (that being of proposer, or 10 if the proposer didn't vote) closes a proposal at the end of the first week.
#If this condition isn't met, a proposal runs for two weeks as expected, even if it gets 10 votes after one week. In short, the proposal only has one opportunity to get closed early: at the end of the first week.<br>Proposals with more than two options also abide by this rule, though they're very unlikely to ever close early. Though it can happen! If the proposal has multiple options, it probably needs more discussion time anyway, so I decided not to touch those at the moment.
#If the proposal has an ongoing discussion in the comments section or the proposal may for any other reason benefit from running for two weeks to generate more discussion (e.g. writing guidelines, wiki policy changes, etc.), both the proposer and the admin team have the right to add the '''"Do not close early"''' tag below the deadline (they then need to state their reasoning for doing so in the comments). This will ensure proposals with unanimous support that need that extra week of time can still get it.
#When closing the proposal early, the deadline needs to be <s>crossed out</s> and "Closed early on ..." needs to be added instead:
::<small>'''Deadline''': <s>November 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Closed early on November 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT</small>


===Encourage game-related "icon"-type images to have consistent file dimensions with each other when applicable to their origins===
This rule will '''not''' apply to talk page proposals


[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Prioritize sprite/tile uploads that have their original file parameters (or clean divisions of them)|My last proposal]] related to this subject had too many holes in it due to being too wide to make an actual rule on the subject. Indeed, not all sprites really need the blank space, not all "icons" are sprites at all. To recap:
I believe this change to be a good compromise between giving proposals more discussion time and eliminating proposals that can do without it.
;this looks good:
<gallery heights=64 widths=64>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Axii}}<br>
MKDD_Mario.png
'''Deadline''': November 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT
MKDD_Luigi.png
ToadIcon-MKDD.png
PeachIcon-MKDD.png
MKDD_Yoshi.png
MKDD_DK.png
BowserMKDD.png
MKDD_Wario.png
</gallery>


;this does not:
====Support====
<gallery heights=72 widths=72>
#{{User|Axii}} This can be a good compromise
MarioMPT.png
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
Luigi MPT.png
#{{User|Altendo}} Why drag on proposals that already have anonymous support? Per proposal.
Shy Guy MPT.png
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This makes sense to us! We are a little on-the-fence about the exact thresholds, but this is definitely a pretty elegant system to help unanimous proposals pass sooner, and given it has only one method to proc, it leaves it pretty shenanigan-proof.
Peach MPT.png
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Sounds good!
Yoshi MPT.png
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per!
DK MPT.png
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Sounds like a good idea. Per proposal.
Bowser MPT.png
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} An idea I and others brought up in the initial proposal that made proposals two weeks long. Yes!
WarioMPT.png
</gallery>


Notice how half of the MPT ones (second row) are awkwardly, inconsistently stretched in various gross ways that makes some of the pixels be rectangles, and none are at a proper size relative to each other - this is an obsessive-compulsive spriter's worst nightmare. Meanwhile, the MKDD ones (first row) look crisp, clean, and are at a nice size relative to each other. Why is this? Because since they are icons, they are programmed to occupy the same type of space in select screens and player standings in-game. They're ''supposed'' to be at around the same size, which is accomplished through the small amount of empty space some have in the upper right corners - which the origin images have in the game's files. We should reflect this for the simple reason that we're only going to be putting these in galleries and table cells with each other ''anyway'', so it makes the most sense to have them take up the same amount of space here as well. They should either be at their raw parameters, or if they are cropped, cropped to the exact same size as all the others for that type in that game so as to not screw up formatting and table cell sizes (and we shouldn't be increasing the size of sprites that are at this size by default anyway). This goes for selection icons, rank icons, map icons, that sort of thing. Cropping them down needlessly leads to the grossness that the second gallery there displays.
====Oppose====


This is already something of an unofficial rule on here; a majority of the games with this sort of icon have them uploaded at a consistent size already for the same pragmatic reasons I just listed. I'm just trying to make this more clear-cut. It's like how "don't optimize images with color-changing metadata" is a rule - most people can't tell the difference, but it minorly affects the accuracy and presentation, so that's why that rule is in place. This is also for the "accuracy and presentation" reasoning.
====Comments====
<s>Would this also apply to talk page proposals?</s> Never mind, I can't read. I do think this could apply to TPPs though. What's your reasoning for it not? [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 14:09, November 13, 2024 (EST)
:Talk page proposals just aren't as visible to the community as mainspace proposals are, so I believe they should still last for two weeks regardless. They also do not clutter the proposals page. I may consider adding it as a third option. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 14:13, November 13, 2024 (EST)
::Axil, I think it's a better idea to replace a direct URL (<nowiki>[https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Revise_how_long_proposals_take:_.22IT.27S_ABOUT_.28how_much.29_TIME_.28they_take.29.22 proposal]</nowiki>) to a direct wikilink (<nowiki>[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Revise how long proposals take: "IT'S ABOUT (how much) TIME (they take)"|proposal]]</nowiki>) so that it removes bytes on the archive page and doesn't always open a new window when clicked. Just my recommendation, though.


'''THIS DOES NOT COVER THE RARE INSTANCES GAME ICONS ACTUALLY ''DO'' HAVE DIFFERENT SIZES AS STORED IN-GAME.''' Instances of that are quite rare, especially for character icons that swap locations, but they can happen. Since they aren't the same size to begin with, there's nothing to match up with.
::Also, what happens with proposals that somehow retain the aspect ratio of at least 12 to 1 (like 25 support votes to 2 oppose votes)? I feel like the case for closing proposals after one week with oppose votes should be changed to '''a ratio of at least 12 to 1''', not '''at least 12 support votes and only 1 oppose vote'''. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 15:07, November 13, 2024 (EST)
I think clause 2 needs to explicitly account for proposals where the proposer does not vote in support of their own proposal. It's not the least common thing in the world, after all — and if we ''miss'' it, we could have people retracting their solitary vote to buy more time, which would not be an intended feature of this. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:59, November 14, 2024 (EST)


'''{{color|purple|PLEASE NOTE THAT MOST IMAGES OF THIS TYPE ON THE WIKI ALREADY FOLLOW THIS RULE.}}''' Attempting to do the opposite, therefore, will take more effort for less reward.
This proposal only considers two-option proposals. We could adapt rules 1 and 2 to take into account any proposal, regardless of the number of voting options: "A proposal must meet these criteria to be closed early: the first place option must have at least 10 votes and at least 92% approval, and the second place option must have at most one vote". This is equivalent to rules 1 and 2 for two-option proposals <small>(though I don't quite understand what would happen in rule 2 if the only support vote is from a user who is not the proposer)</small>, and it would work well with {{tem|proposal check}}. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 08:00, November 21, 2024 (EST)
:It is too late to modify the proposal now, though I like your idea. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 08:36, November 21, 2024 (EST)


'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
===What to do with [[Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf)|Steve]] and [[Ike (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!)|Ike]]===
'''Deadline''': November 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT
Despite that now the ''Smash Bros.'' characters don't get their own articles but instead grouped into lists by game, the actual ''Mario'' characters that have the same name as ''Smash'' fighters (being [[Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf)|Steve]] from ''NES Open Tournament Golf'' and [[Ike (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!)|Ike]] from ''The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!'') don't have their identifiers removed. [[Talk:Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf)#Identifer|This has been brought up before]], however no actions have been taken. I think there is some good points to these identifiers being removed.
*[[Roy]], [[Alex]] and [[Zombie]] don't have identifiers despite also sharing names with ''Smash Bros.'' characters.
*If a casual user wanted to find information on Steve from ''Minecraft'', they'd go to the Minecraft Wiki. If they wanted more detailed information for Steve in ''Smash'', they'd go to the Smash Bros. Wiki, ''not here.''
*This could easily be distinguished with the "about" template.
With these points, I really don't see any reason for these identifiers. They're pointless if anything. This is a ''Mario'' wiki. ''Mario'' elements should take priority over things we don't fully cover anymore.


====Support - consistent icons (change the few remaining icon images and make it a general rule for the future)====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Starluxe}}<br>'''Deadline''': November 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - ''Icon'' haz dead, never-funny-in-the-first-place memes about fast food sandwiches?
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} - Accurate to how the graphic or texture is stored in game.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per fast food sandwiches
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|blueberrymuffin}} Per proposal.


====Oppose - who needs consistency? (do nothing)====
====Support====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Rawsize exists.
#{{User|Starluxe}} Per proposal!
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} There's no sense in ''deliberately'' translating the functional limitations of a game onto a wiki. The site's educational purpose dictates that official material shown on a wiki be inherently recontextualized, and showing that material at a different scale than originally intended is in line with that idea. Even taking into account the niche interests of a sprite enthusiast (which TBH is fair, the wiki is a gateway to Mario material for anybody), the sprites in and of themselves are accurate to how they were extracted when you view them on their dedicated file pages; it's only their appearance on mainspace pages that is subject to alterations, and what to what degree that is beneficial is better scrutinized on a case-by-case basis than through a global proposal. TLDR If the sprites are too uncomfortably big just resize them, or use rawsize like Waluigi Time says.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} i feel some ways about the level of coverage we give Smash stuff. per proposal
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Per WT.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all. This can easily be taken care of by either a gallery or a table's settings, I am very sure of that. We don't need to be unnecessarily tampering with perfectly cropped files. I am not 100% sure of the technical site of the wiki but I am very sure that there are better ways to go about fixing sizing of things in tables not being adequate without just having to overhaul image uploads entirely, rather than just playing around with a table.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Very straightforward update to these article names given the merging.
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} Seems like a huge amount of work for what is... honestly imperceptible to 99.9% of users such as in your example. Busywork for the sake of busywork.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. I see no real benefit from this.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us. Per proposal.
#{{user|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Waluigi Time. We already have tools capable of representing these icons more accurately to their in-game versions as necessary without requiring deadzones or other such things to be baked into the image itself. In fact, baking it into the image itself can cause issues when attempting to use the same image on different pages not fitted for them; such as how the image on the infobox for [[Blooper (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)]] is markedly smaller because it retains the blank space for the sake of [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch) bestiary|the bestiary article]]. While we should strive for accuracy, we shouldn't let it get in the way of making the information actually accessible and readable; besides, if someone wanted the raw, original images, including any blank space around them, they would likely check The Spriter's Resource, not us.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per Koopa Con Carne. Zero readers care if an asset is cropped to content to dimensions in the power of 8 or if they have the ripped dimensions, especially if all said images are there to illustrate a gallery and especially if there is copious amounts of empty space just to pad the image to appropriate dimensions for a game engine. We aren't a game engine (modern game engines are perfectly capable of having textures in resolutions not in powers of 8 by the way), official websites such as the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe's official website [[:File:MK8DX Baby Luigi Icon.png|crop to content]] because image editors know that it doesn't need to be in those dimensions (let's not get into how these assets are actually made, they're scaled down in the first place 100% for game engine reasons) icons should be cropped to editor's discretion without bludgeoning editors over the head about it, we should prioritize optimization and readability over faithfulness to asset dimensions. I can see cases where consistent sizes can work out, namely the character icons as listed in this proposal, but the general rule ''should'' be crop to content, but leave some in exceptions in regards to formatting tables, not the other way around.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|BMfan08}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
 
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
====Oppose====


====Comments====
====Comments====
{{@|Waluigi Time}} - Rawsize doesn't help for tabular data. Only for galleries. Only way to get it there would be to separately size each cell, and even that doesn't keep them in the correct position within the cell. Wouldn't it be more pragmatic to just have the images at the correct size rather than having to mess with the HTML each time? And we do indeed use these for tabular data, like ghost times, tennis rivals, that sort of thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:43, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:And would that not be easily solved by displaying the image at its native resolution (or at least consistent resolutions for all of them) and centering it? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:51, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::No, it absolutely wouldn't. Because not all the icons are themselves centered, such as the MKDD ones above. They all come out of the lower-left corner. And that's not getting into how some games have a variant with an actual shaped background alongside clear-background ones, like ''[https://www.spriters-resource.com/wii/mariostrikerscharged/sheet/195218/ Strikers Charged]'' for example. It'd make the most sense to match those up relative to where the square bounds are for their respective size, IMO. Also, when they need shrunk for smaller tables, it's easier to do that when they have the same x-y parameters anyway so you don't have to check every. Last. One. And do the math each time. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:52, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:All of these things can be fixed using <code>text-align: center</code>, <code>vertical-align: middle</code>, and the inherent ability of tables to size columns and rows based on their contents. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 20:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
::I already said that's not true, because not all of them are centered in their origin. If you want DK's image's left border touching the left border and his right border touching the right border, and the same to go for Luigi, that will absolutely not work unless they are uploaded at their intended size. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:58, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|Koopa con Carne}} - I thought you didn't want math to be forced onto the site. In order to resize them consistently if they aren't uploaded at the intended consistent size, you have to go through ''every single one'' and check their sizes individually, ''then'' apply whatever size change also individually in order to be consistent. Keeping them as they are intentionally incorporated into the game is much cleaner on both counts. If mediawiki had a "50%" in addition to the pixel resizing, that wouldn't be an issue, but they don't. And applying a same-pixel-size on sprites with different base sizes is just dirty. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:04, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
===Tag images of bind-posing models for reuploading===
:You're misconstruing my point about math on the wiki. I never suggested curbing the use of math in the back end by editors (even then, I don't recall ever actually mathing my way through editing a page other than establishing sizes of things like images and charts). It was strictly in reference to the math that is displayed, for one reason or another, to readers, specifically how serviceable it is for articles to show readers more complex formulas versus simple tallies of elements in a level. I've long digressed though, lol.<br>The issues you bring up are solvable on a case-by-case basis. I like consistency and tidiness, too, however, those ought to have a healthy marriage with the wiki's primary interest to educate. [[Mario_Kart_Tour_race_points_system#Object interactions|Here]], you'll notice I purposefully enlarged the icon for the Giant Banana item relative to the regular banana peel, because it used to look about the same size, which was odd. I understand where you're coming from and I support giving a sense of scale to sprites of a certain type in a row if it would otherwise look too messy or unnatural, but I don't believe that has to be enforced among all these sprites indiscriminately. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:23, October 28, 2024 (EDT), edited 19:03, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
It's been two years since [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Do not use t-posing models as infobox images|the previous proposal]] had passed. Now let's talk about tagging images of bind-posing models for reuploading. Take [https://www.models-resource.com/resources/big_icons/4/3950.png?updated=1673644745 this image] for example. As you can see, this image is a bind-posing model. Once this proposal passes, we'll be able to tag every bind-posing model with this:
::Well this proposal isn't about "all sprites," it is specifically about icons within a particular family, ie, all MKDD character select icons are one family, all MKDD item icons are another family, all MKW select icons are yet another family, etc. etc. etc. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:30, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::I understand. That's what I meant when I said "sprites of a certain type in a row". That's a tad wordy, so I guess "sprite family" can indeed be used for the purposes of this proposal instead. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:59, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::OK so.... what is the negative you are seeing to this? It seems like you agree with what the proposal actually aims to do, so I'm not really understanding your opposition. It's like how "don't optimize images with color-changing metadata" is a rule - most people can't tell the difference, but it affects the accuracy and presentation, so that's why that rule is in place. This is also for the "accuracy and presentation" reasoning. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:07, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|UltraMario}} - You... ''do'' realize that ''cropping'' the files is where the "tampering" comes into play, right? If they're displayed as they are in the game, they are ''un''tampered with. Cropping them down is, by definition, tampering with them. I think you need to reword that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:07, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
{{tem|image-quality|Bind-posing model; should be replaced with a rendered game model}}


{{@|Fun With Despair}} - Except most of them are ''already'' like this - this is just making an unofficial rule we've used for years an official one for practicality. In this case, doing the ''opposite'' would be busywork. And making them consistent is busywork I am willing to ''do''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:35, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
That way, if a bind-posing model is reuploaded as a rendered game model that serves as a replacement, we'll be able to reuse it as an infobox image.
:Besides, being a lot of work hasn't stopped [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Require citations for names in other languages|proposals that take even more work to implement]] from passing. It's a flimsy reason to oppose a change. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:02, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
::Not opposing because it's a lot of work, opposing because it's a lot of work in service of something that is unnoticed and not cared about by the vast majority of users. The citation proposal is a bad example because that is actually something important to the accuracy of information on the wiki. This doesn't do much of anything at all besides force small edits to many old images.--[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 18:33, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::That could be said about proposals in general. If it doesn't matter to you, wouldn't it make more sense to not vote at all? If I see a proposal on a subject I don't care about, I just don't vote. After all, if it matters to ''someone'', it matters in general and shouldn't just be opposed because of what amounts to "I don't care about this." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:36, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::I'd argue a majority (or at least significant number) of readers likely don't care either way about citations for names in other languages. But that doesn't mean people who do care about the change don't exist, or that it's inherently a bad change. I think "eh who cares" is also a flimsy reason to oppose a change. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:38, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


Wait, so if this is already often the way things are, will the oppose option change that? That would mean this proposal lacks a "do nothing" option. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:07, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
:Oppose is a "do nothing." I'm not going to include an option for what I would consider a ''negative'' change. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:28, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': November 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
::Wasn't suggesting you should, just got confused since you were making comments about "doing the opposite". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:31, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::That was mainly directed at the "too much work" argument. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:32, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|Camwoodstock}} - Things like the TTYDr bestiary images are not covered by this proposal, only small icon sprites that are intended to be square anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:46, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
====Support====
:For the record, we know that wasn't exactly what the proposal was targetting, we mostly mentioned it as it's a pretty striking example of how including these transparent margins in the images themselves can backfire (besides, it's one of the most recent examples of such a thing happening.) We hope that makes sense, anyway. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:48, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
::I still don't see why it's preferable to be forced to use the HTML to make them somewhat close-ish to accurate when simply letting it have the one or two columns of blank pixels that it's supposed to have on one side of it would look better for practical reasons anyway. It's a lot simpler and doesn't hurt anything to do. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:52, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
<s>#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Like I said in the other proposal, T-poses are generally not how characters are supposed to look. If [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots|this]] is any indication, the wiki should favor game accuracy in images.</s>
:::Because sometimes, you ''don't'' want them to be entirely accurate; while an original-resolution image might be wanted for, say, a gallery or a table, in an article, template, or especially in an infobox, you probably don't want the original size and would want something a lot more readily scalable, without transparent margins baked into the image that you need to futz with. At best, it would be too small to add a proper caption to; at worst, you basically gut the clarity of the image itself. For example, while not an "icon" in the sense of the original proposal, the articles for various objects from [[Super Mario Land]] upscale the images outside of their original context. Infoboxes on articles such as the [[Lift Block]] would be rendered borderline incomprehensible if the images were not enlarged like this. And the grown image size is accomplished not via baking it into the files themselves, but via using fairly basic wikiscript or HTML; that way, on the main article, they can still appear in their original format. This general philosophy applies to icons as well, which is why we bring it up.<br>Again, if someone was looking for the raw, unedited sprites, they would likely head to The Spriter's Resource and not us; our goal here is to make these images accurate, of course, but we need to make them both usable in articles and also keep them standardized between one another; baking transparent margins into the images themselves, even if technically accurate to the source material, does run counter to that latter goal. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 21:09, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
 
::::There are plenty of instances where we'd have to edit ripped textures anyway because they're ripped rotated or flipped. Cropping to content is similar to those nondestructive edits and I still fail to see how it's such a big issue, we don't need to preserve transparent pixels just because image editors deliberately padded out assets just for the game engine to decipher properly. Otherwise we should upload sprites without any color data and their palette data as separate entities. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:15, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose====
:::::It's destructive to me. ._. Also, saying "zero" readers is obviously wrong if there's people supporting this. "Who cares" is never a good argument. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:10, October 28, 2024 (EDT)  
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think it is great when users replace images of bind-posed (or "t-posed") models with organically rendered ones. It is a practice I personally encourage and welcome. However, I do think there [[:File:PiantissimoUnmasked.png|can be educational and illustrative purposes to bind-posed models]], and I think a blanket rule would put unnecessary pressure on the users of this site to render models when a bind-posed one can be more than serviceable, and may even discourage the cataloging of 3D assets in the future if a user cannot render them. Rendering models is a very time-consuming process, and I think it is healthier to just allow users to replace the bind-posed images we have ''if'' they can. Not require them to. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} this seems better handled on a case-by-case basis rather than a full sweep
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, a hard rule isn't necessary here.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Nintendo101. Given there ''are'' scenarios where bind-posed/T-posed models are actually more illustrative than properly rigged alternatives, we should probably handle these on a case-by-case basis.
#{{User|Mario}} Tag them if they're bad quality, not because they're t-posed.
 
====Comments====
Wording should be changed to "bind pose" since not all characters are T-posed, especially non-bipeds ([https://www.models-resource.com/resources/big_icons/4/3950.png?updated=1673644745 like Yoshi from Super Smash Bros. Melee or Brawl], Wiggler, Buzzy Beetles, Piranha Plants, and more) and A-pose exists as a default pose too. In addition, models technically aren't "t-posing", they're modeled this way before animations and a rig are applied to them, the wording makes them look like they're animating when they're not. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:36, November 15, 2024 (EST)


By the way, a striking example of ripped assets that are extremely counterpoint to this proposal are the [[Mario_Party:_Island_Tour#Spaces|Mario Party: Island Tour]] space icons. Every single one of those icons are cropped from a single texture that compiles all of them, absolutely requiring you to crop images and then crop to content because none of the options suggested that would "encourage" them cover those instances. Hence why I think it's extremely pertinent to encourage crop to content except for formatting purposes in regards to tables. In addition, icons ripped may also come with engine gamma-fixes or even be outright flipped or rotated all which require correction in display for browsing purposes. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:10, October 28, 2024 (EDT)
Does this proposal advocate replacing these ripped models with ones that are posed from a screenshot or posed in a 3d program with ripped animation files? Not all models are ripped with animations, so it's a bit of a task to undertake if you really want models with animations AND a rig (let's not get started in lighting, which is a separate skillset that's demanded from renderers; not many people get the lighting very good, no offense!); a chunk of models tend to not have a rig, much less an animation. Additionally, some t-posed models are great to use when comparing models or viewing models ''as they are''. [[:File:MLNPC.png]] is an example where it's easy to compare the proportions of Mario, PC Luigi, and NPC Luigi. Sure, you can probably put them all in a orthographic lineup in the same keyframe of a shared animation, but due to the arms, legs, spine, and head all straightened out, it's better to illustrate in T-pose imo. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:00, November 15, 2024 (EST)
:Hence "when applicable to their origins". As that one is done differently, it is not applicable. {{file link|MK8DX-BCP audience TVV.png|This texture}} was stored in a similar manner with all eight of its frames in a single image (evenly spaced), while there's also {{file link|MKAGP audience.png|this group texture image}} that has someone sideways. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:06, October 28, 2024 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 09:50, November 21, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Thursday, November 21st, 20:04 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. While only autoconfirmed users can comment on proposals, anyone is free to comment on talk page proposals.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use the {{proposal check}} tool to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks (at the earliest).
  13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  14. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  15. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first six days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  16. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  17. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  18. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  19. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 14 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "November 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as for proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by the additional rules below:
  3. The talk page proposal must pertain to the subject page of the talk page it is posted on.
  4. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

  • Decide whether to create articles for Ashita ni Nattara and Banana Tengoku and/or include them on List of Donkey Kong Country (television series) songs (discuss) Deadline: November 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch) (discuss) Deadline: November 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Merge False Character and the Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams to List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses (discuss) Deadline: December 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 3, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)
Merge Spiked Thwomp with Thwomp, Blinker (ended November 2, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Do not surround song titles with quotes

This is a change to this section of our Manual of Style. Currently, our policy is to surround song titles with quotation marks whenever they appear. However. We are a Mario wiki, and the Mario series overwhelmingly does not do this.

The comparison arises to italics, but I feel there's quite a difference between that (an effect applied to text) and the inclusion of punctuation marks, which are text in and of themselves. Not to mention, unlike italics, which would require special programming to implement, quote marks are supported by anything that supports English text, meaning it's not a question of technical limitations — every game that names its songs is perfectly capable of listing them inside quotation marks, and yet they make the choice not to.

As such, surrounding song titles in quotes is questionable as adherence to an unofficial naming scheme over the original one. Not to mention the effects this can have on lists of song titles — their inclusion on Template:DDRMM fluffs up the width of the song section by the width of several song titles.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to mention how inconsistently these quote marks are applied across the wiki already — many entries in Category:Music do not use them in their article, none of the lists of songs from the shows or of WarioWare DIY records use them, Starring Wario! and only Starring Wario has had its article title changed to have the quotes. I take this to mean the rule is not serving the wiki as it stands.

The one exception to everything I've mentioned thus far is Paper Mario: The Origami King's music discs: "Deep, Deep Vibes", "Heartbeat Skipper", "M-A-X Power!", and "Thrills at Night". These are the only time the names of songs are formatted this way (possibly due to the items being CDs of the songs and not the songs themselves). Therefore, these will be the only exception if this proposal passes, and will keep their quote marks.

To circle back around to my original point: I think the nail in the coffin for displaying music this way is Nintendo Music. This application, specifically meant to play music, does not surround their names with quote marks. And yet this article surrounds them in quotes anyway, stringently adhering to our unofficial way of formatting these over the way Nintendo Music actually formats them. It's almost lying, frankly.

So, our options:

  • Option 1: Exclude quote marks from song titles in all cases. Our manual of style will remove the mention of song titles from the section of italicizing titles. Just for clarity, this excludes Origami King's CDs.
  • Option 2: Keep quote marks when song titles are used in a sentence, but exclude them from standalone appearances of the title. Such standalone appearances would include article titles, navboxes, infoboxes, track listings, and table entries. Just for clarity, this option, too, excludes Origami King's CDs.
  • Option 3: Do nothing. I guess this option includes Origami King's CDs.

Proposer:: Ahemtoday (talk)
Deadline: November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) My primary choice. I've firmly laid out my reasons why here.
  2. Jdtendo (talk) I prefer to think of each music as a work in its own right rather than a part of some "greater whole". Jump Up, Super Star! is more than just a piece of Super Mario Odyssey's OST. Therefore, song titles should be italicized like any other work and not be in quotation marks as if they were merely chapters.
  3. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, and there's precedent for following Nintendo's official formatting in spite of usual conventions. The inconsistencies described in the proposal ought to be fixed regardless of the outcome, though.
  4. Biggestman (talk) While I to a degree understand the entire thing with the songs simply being a part of a greater thing, that isn't really fair when I would make an argument some of these songs are a larger part of the series' history than those "greater" things. For example music from Yoshi's Story is still used relatively often to this very day, but Yoshi's Story as a whole is just kinda there. Per all, too.

Option 2

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) I will settle for this — part of my ire toward the quotemarks is that I find them highly unsuitable for these particular usages.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Secondary option, per my comment below in Option 3.

Option 3

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a greater whole (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in The Color of Water. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of Resident Alien. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the Super Mario franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "Gusty Garden Galaxy" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and Gusty Garden Galaxy is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) per N101. quotation marks are a writing convention! most mario games also don't have italic titles, but we italicize them anyways because it's a formal writing convention that makes sense
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Strong oppose, per all. This is a well-recognized writing convention, the fact that Nintendo doesn't typically follow it within their products is irrelevant.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Nintendo101. These quotes are here for a reason, no matter how remote it may seem.
  5. Ray Trace (talk) Quoting songs is from the manual of style itself, it's the same reason we italicize game titles. I would go even further and quote song titles as a display title like I did in "Starring Wario!"
  6. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  7. Axii (talk) Per all.
  8. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - "Because game writing" is what leads to wikis encouraging jokey sarcastic writing, which I'm pretty sure is not the direction we want to go.

Comments

If this passes, how would it affect coverage of non-Mario music? Our only options are either to have two standards, or ignore established convention based on what Nintendo does for media they had no hand in actually producing. Neither seems ideal to me. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:24, November 10, 2024 (EST)

We'd treat non-Mario music the same as Mario music. Established convention doesn't mean much when we're always saying on this page that we're not other wikis and we don't necessarily need to do things the way other wikis do them. Ahemtoday (talk) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I don't think anyone is advocating to hold onto a convention just for the sake of it. Rather, that we should hold onto the convention because it is useful and the proposal doesn't provide persuasive reasons to abandon that usage, or at least it does not for me. - Nintendo101 (talk) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)

In addition, I wouldn't use applications such as Nintendo Music as proof that we shouldn't abide by formatting either. Neither music metadata nor files themselves quote song names, neither does Spotify nor Amazon Music. Yet Wikipedia still does because that's how it's standardized in writing articles. In addition, you pointed out how "Starring Wario!" is the outlier as your point, I've only just started working on those articles mate. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 21:01, November 10, 2024 (EST)

Even Wikipedia doesn't use the quotes in article titles though. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:17, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I would support an option that called for just removing the quotation marks in the header for articles (as done here, which should be compared to here). This is not uncommon in written books on music. But there currently is no voting option to do just that. - Nintendo101 (talk) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)

@Ray Trace I'm aware it's in the manual of style. That's why the proposal is about changing the manual of style. Ahemtoday (talk) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)

I'm not talking about the wiki's manual style. I'm talking about general guidelines especially MLA BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 15:41, November 11, 2024 (EST)
If it's not our manual of style, then there's no reason for us to care about it because we don't use it. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:04, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Our manual of style is based on this manual of style. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 18:11, November 11, 2024 (EST)
If it's only based on it, then it isn't it. The manual of style is ours, so this quote mark convention has to survive on its own merits, not just by virtue of being in someone else's manual of style. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:22, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Not using general formatting standard guidelines solely because "we shouldn't just because we're not them" is not a good argument. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 18:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Well, then — Nintendo doesn't do this either, so there's no reason for this wiki to pretend like they do. That's been my argument this whole time. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)
The main difference is that they're a video game, and they're inherently informal in their presentation. They're not trying to write things and bios formally, they're trying to present writing to players, so formatting like italicizing game titles is optional, because that's what it's set out to do. On the other hand, we're an encyclopedia, our writing formatting is far more similar to Wikipedia which observes these things and MLA writing guidelines, and how to format sourcing, and it's something we should emulate over a video game's script. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 18:47, November 11, 2024 (EST)
@Ahemtoday I don't think that is the strong argument you think it is, because almost no piece of media where it has become conventional to include quotation marks include them themselves. They are not on the back of most albums, books, or title cards for television shows. But they are all still presented with quotes arounf them in reference material like Wikipedia and physical books. What makes the Nintendo music we cover here so different that warrants unique treatment? - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:53, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Nintendo doesn't always italicize game titles either, this site does. To be honest, though, I'm not sure how consistently this wiki observes MLA. There's some superficial basis in it (mostly coming off of Wikipedia's style guide, which is sprinkled with some MLA), what with the titles of whole works being written in italics and those of constituent parts of a work being surrounded by quotes, yet the manner in which citations are formatted, arguably a priority of any academic style guide, seems rather peculiar to Wikipedia's house style. Take any citation formatted using the {{cite}} template on this wiki and compare it to how MLA proposes it is done (owl.purdue.edu). There's also been at least one attempt at explicitly adopting a standard purveyed by MLA that got shot down. Not to digress too much, I just wanted to point out that MLA is not currently as pervasive here as it's made out to be and can't be appealed to solely because of a few instances that (happen to) observe it. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:20, November 11, 2024 (EST), edited 19:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I am personally forgiving on how we structure citations in that template, because many academic journals don't adopt the MLA structure either. Everyone does something a little different from one another. The information included in a citation is more important than how it is organized, and things like ISBN are pretty helpful for an online reference like Super Mario Wiki.
But I also don't believe in supporting conventions just for the sake of them being conventions. I'd rather support them if they are beneficial. What are your thoughts on what I said in my vote above? - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:33, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I cannot argue with your vote. If a writing standard promoted by outside guides can harmonize with the needs of Mario Wiki, there's no reason not to adopt it. Quotation marks serve their purpose well in this case. so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 20:10, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Cool! I was just curious. I value your perspective. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:14, November 11, 2024 (EST)

I'm realizing I haven't given my full thoughts on @Nintendo101's vote yet. I agree that there are benefits to formatting song titles in this way (particularly in sentences, which is why I have the option to keep the quote marks exclusively in sentences) — but this formatting scheme misrepresents how the actual works in question are referred to by official media. I had to ask a friend who had Nintendo Music to find out whether or not the app displayed song titles in quotes, because I couldn't trust this wiki to tell me — and, like I said, Nintendo Music doesn't. Yet this article writes the song names as if it does, because apparently this convention is more important than this kind of information. I know this is a minor piece of information, but this formatting convention causes me to be unable to trust the wiki about it. No benefit can counterbalance that. Ahemtoday (talk) 20:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)

I am sorry that you felt mislead, but are you sure it is not because you were unfamiliar with this being a convention for music pieces in the first place? - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:12, November 12, 2024 (EST)
I was well familiar with the convention and how this wiki used it at the time, which is why I knew to ask a friend instead of taking the wiki's word for it. I take such a hardline stance against it not because this untrustworthiness has personally wronged me, but because untrustworthiness is a failure of the wiki on principle. Ahemtoday (talk) 00:02, November 13, 2024 (EST)
I am sorry, I was not referring to Super Mario Wiki in isolation. I was referring to the convention at large. In books and articles on music, regardless of topic, individual pieces are placed within quotation marks. I know I myself first learned one is supposed to put quotation marks around music titles while I was taking English class in middle school. So while I am sympathetic that this bothered you, I do not agree it is misleading. Maybe the issue lies with folks who do not have a lot of experience reading or writing about music. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:05, November 13, 2024 (EST)
Whether or not readers are familiar with the convention doesn't change the fact that the convention is not reflective of what is being talked about. The only reason wiki readers know "Thrills at Night" and its ilk are actually surrounded in quotes officially is because we haven't been thorough in applying this convention. If we did, then the distinction would vanish completely, because the wiki currently considers adhering to this guideline more important than this kind of information. You can't pin that on readers being unfamiliar. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:17, November 13, 2024 (EST)
I have contacted the director of the Purdue OWL at Purdue University to ask them how one should cite music tracks that already has quotation marks rendered in their name. However, to be honest, I am still not really sure what the issue here is. How are the quotation marks any different from italicization of video games and albums? The name Paper Mario: The Origami King is not displayed anywhere in Nintendo's official material italicized, but we do it for the same reasons one puts quotation marks around music tracks - because it is a useful MLA convention. For music, it is unclear to me on what is being miscommunicated or lost when they are accurately displayed between quotation marks, especially since articles for "Thrills at Night" and other tracks are accompanied with screenshots that show how they are rendered in-game. Is this not sufficient? - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
It is not sufficient. To begin with, not every use of song titles is accompanied by images showing that the music titles are formatted without quotes — the majority of articles in Category:Sound tests do not have such images. (Not to mention that to use these images to establish the formatting of every song title in a given game would require a comically excessive amount of images.) Furthermore, even if they did, this information would be entirely invisible to users of screen readers, raising accessibility concerns. This information can't be conveyed by images alone. Ahemtoday (talk) 15:14, November 14, 2024 (EST)
Couldn't it just be clarified in the article itself that a piece of music is displayed with quotations mark around it? It is not a very common thing to do. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
Writing in an explicit note clarifying that this time the article is actually reflective of how the music is referred to officially is a much more convoluted way of going about this compared to just referring to them in the official way to begin with. Ahemtoday (talk) 16:50, November 14, 2024 (EST)

Biggestman: The formatting of quotes in songs aren't discussed from a cultural relevancy angle, they're in context of being part of an album. It's the same reason short poetry gets quotes, but novels get italicized, we'd quote "The Raven" but still italicize The Day My Butt Went Psycho. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 21:40, November 15, 2024 (EST)

Add identifiers to near-identical titles

Current MarioWiki writing guidelines state that articles with shared titles recieve an identifier to disambiguate between them (see: Mark (Mario Tennis series) and Mark (NES Open Tournament Golf)). However, this currently relies on the articles sharing an identical, character-by-character name. This means Color coin (Super Mario Run) and Colored coin (Wario Land 3) do not recieve identifiers, despite sharing functionally identical titles. Other sets of articles with the same dilemma include Secret Course 1 (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins) and Secret Course 01 (Super Mario Run), Spyguy (Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis) and Spy Guy (Paper Mario), and Rollin' Down the River (Yoshi's Woolly World) and Rolling Down the River (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!).

This proposal aims to amend MarioWiki:Naming to consider near-identical titles like these as "shared titles", and thus qualify for recieving an identifier according to the established criteria. This is already applied in some articles, but this proposal aims to formalize it as part of the naming rules.

Note that this proposal only covers names that are semantically identical, and only differ in formatting or minor word choices. Buzzar and Buzzer have extremely similar names, but they aren't semantically identical. Balloon Boo and Boo Balloon are extremely similar as well, but the word order sets them apart.

Edit: Per Hewer's question and my comment below, I'd like to point out MarioWiki already does this sometimes. Pairs of near-identical names with identifiers include Family Basic (microgame) and Family BASIC (as ruled by a proposal), Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise) and Hot-air balloon, Finish line (object) and Finish Line (microgame), and Avalanche (obstacle) and both Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix) and Avalanche! (Mario Party 4). If this proposal doesn't pass, all of these would get their identifiers removed.

Proposer: EvieMaybe (talk)
Deadline: November 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. EvieMaybe (talk) per.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. Altendo (talk) I don't see a need for this. If the names are similar, tophats containing the other pages can be placed on the pages with similar names. Identifiers are used to identify subjects with identical names, not similar names.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per Altendo, this is what Template:Distinguish is for. We have to use identifiers for identical titles because the wiki can't have multiple pages with the same title, but that limitation doesn't exist if the titles are just similar. This would make the titles longer than they need to be, and I could also see this leading to disagreements about what's similar enough to count, if the examples are anything to go by. Easier to stick to the objectivity of only giving identical names identifiers. The proposal also doesn't specify what the "some articles" are where this has already been done, but I'm assuming they should be changed.
  3. Ray Trace (talk) Per Hewer.
  4. Dine2017 (talk) Per Hewer & I'd like to see the use of identifier kept to a minimum because it simplifies typing (URL, wikicode, etc.)
  5. SeanWheeler (talk) Per Hewer. No need to extend the title just because of a couple letter difference. The identifiers are there for identical titles because it's impossible for wikipages to have the same name.
  6. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per Hewer. Making this change would only cause more confusion, not less.

Comments

I'm not sure why this is a problem in the first place, can you please elaborate? --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)

i just find it a bit unreasonable to expect people to remember the difference between two names that are identical in all but formatting, or essentially irrelevant word choice differences (in the case of Color coin and Colored coin, which have also been). this is especially true while editing; i had to verify whether Secret Course 1 was the SML2 one or the SMR one when writing the Secret exit article. without resorting to a literal, robotic interpretation of the rules, all of the articles i mentioned have functionally "the same name" as their pair, and there is precedent for adding identifiers to article names like these. Family Basic (microgame) recieved a differentiatior because a mere capitalization difference from Family BASIC was deemed unreasonable. folks in the MarioWiki Discord server agreed with me when i asked if i should rename Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise) (previously just "Hot Air Balloon", with no hyphen and Air capitalized) to differentiate it from Hot-air balloon. Avalanche (obstacle) has an identifier to separate it from Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix) and Avalanche! (Mario Party 4), even though both of them have exclamation marks. Finish line (object) and Finish Line (microgame) get identifiers, even though they're capitalized differently. this is something we already do, the aim here is just to formalize it. EvieMaybe (talk) 14:51, November 11, 2024 (EST)
This proposal passing wouldn't mean you no longer have to check whether it's Secret Course 1 or 01, it'd just mean you now have to type an unnecessary identifier and pipe link it as well. I'd say it's different for finish line and Family BASIC where the only difference between titles is casing, as the search function on the wiki is case insensitive (and also, that proposal made Family Basic a redirect to Family BASIC, so an identifier is still needed to distinguish from that). But in the other cases, we don't need the identifier. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:49, November 11, 2024 (EST)

New features

Create a category for "catch-all articles"

By "catch-all article" (tentative term; please suggest names) I mean those that describe elements that are not related, but share an article because they boil down to the same generic, often real world object. Many of them fit what the guidelines call a "generic subject". Examples of this kind of article are:

They may also boil down to a similar fictional basic concept, which are their own distinct thing, despite all of them taking a similar form:

Compare subjects to which this category would not apply, like ? Block or P-Switch, where every reappearance of the subject is really a deliberate revisitation of a specific concept that already existed.

This category would be applied to articles on concrete subjects only (most of which, if not all, would be objects).

Proposer: Bro Hammer (talk)
Deadline: November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Bro Hammer (talk) My proposal.

Oppose

  1. Hewer (talk) I don't see how such a category would be useful, and I don't like that it's pretty subjective and is based on a trait shared by the articles rather than the objects themselves. Even if there was value in distinguishing these pages, I don't think a category like this is the way to do it.
  2. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Is History of Mario a catch-all article because it covers both a fictional character and Bob Hoskins? We would have to have that sort of debate for too many articles to count. This is too subjective and doesn't really accomplish anything.
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) Unnecessary, and the word "generic" alone is unclear whether it goes by the definition of real-life or Super Mario.
  4. Arend (talk) Honestly, the inclusion of fictional items like Poison Mushroom, ! Block and ? Panel would make it more confusing for me what a "catch-all article" is supposed to be; if it's supposed to be about generic subjects, then their inclusion would definitely muddy the concept quite a bit. Not to mention that the term "catch-all article" isn't clear enough as it is.

Comments

My gut reaction is that I disagree that the Poison Mushroom and Lift articles encompass generic subjects. They are supported as discrete in the paratext for these games. But even if narrowed to articles I agree are generic, it is not inherently clear to me what the benefit of having a "catch-all category" would be. My general view is that there are quite a few subjects that we consider to be generic which really are not. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:45, November 10, 2024 (EST)

What would be some subjects you don't consider generic? My case for the Lift is that it's an article that encompasses almost all types of flat, moving platforms (a basic platforming game object), many even with their own distinct names; I believe you could even argue for some of the versions to get their own articles. And yeah, I agree that there's no huge benefit to having this category, as it would be there mostly for the sake of acknowledgement that "this article does not describe the history of a single idea, but it's instead an aggregation of the histories of various ideas that fit under this umbrella". Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 16:25, November 10, 2024 (EST)

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Move "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to "Peach" and "Daisy"

Earlier this year, I made a proposal suggesting that the article "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy". That proposal was rejected, with one of the main reasons being that people were concerned about the inconsistency this would cause with Princess Peach. Since then, another similar proposal has passed that suggested moving the Koopaling articles to just their first names. So, I would like to suggest once again that I think "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy", except that this time I'm also including the option to move "Princess Peach" to "Peach".

This proposal is not suggesting that we stop using these titles for these characters completely. We should continue to do as we have done: use whatever name is used in a specific work when talking about a character's appearance in that work. I am only suggesting that the articles themselves be moved to "Peach" and "Daisy", which I believe to be their primary names.

The case for moving Daisy's article

You can read my full argument for Daisy in my previous proposal about this subject, so I'll be brief here. My key point is that Daisy has never been called Princess Daisy in any game as her primary English name. It's certainly not an unofficial title by any means, but she is and always has been called "Daisy", with no honorific, considerably more often and more prominently than her full title.

The case for moving Peach's article

The case for Peach is much weaker than the case for Daisy. Unlike Daisy, Peach is actually called by her full title in-game as her primary English name sometimes. In fact, as was pointed out in the comments of the previous proposal, Nintendo has on occasion used the names "Princess Peach" (with the honorific) and "Daisy" (without) together.

Nonetheless, her highness is called "Peach" in-game considerably more often than "Princess Peach". (To be clear, my point is not that she's never called "Princess Peach", just that "Peach" appears to be her primary in-game name, which is what the naming policy recommends.) I believe the strongest example here is Mario Kart Tour, which uses "Peach" despite having no shortage of playable drivers with excessively unweildy names.

Proposer: janMisali (talk)
Deadline: November 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Move both princesses

  1. JanMisali (talk) First choice, as proposer.
  2. Tails777 (talk) Primary choice. Even if Peach uses her title more often, MANY games usually relegate to just calling the princesses by their names without their titles. And since Bowser is also referred to as just "Bowser" over "King Bowser" (a titled name used about as often as Princess Peach), I feel all three can just use their names without titles.
  3. Ahemtoday (talk) Only choice, per proposal. I was part of the opposition to the previous proposal, but this one fixes the issue I had with it. And anyway, in basically any game where Peach is playable, the thing written under her on the character select is just "Peach", same as Daisy, so this feels like the natural solution.
  4. Super Mario RPG (talk) "Princess" is just a title of Peach's name, and most appearances refer to her as simply Peach. The name for "Daisy" is very seldomly preceded by "Princess". Compare to Dr. Mario, where the "Dr." is an inherent part of his name, rather than a full title.
  5. Altendo (talk) If we can remove names from Sonic characters, the Koopalings, and even named identifiers like Sir and Admiral, there is no reason to not do this. Per all.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal, and the original proposal that spurred this one.
  7. LinkTheLefty (talk) Things are headed in this direction, let's rip the bandage off.
  8. Arend (talk) I'm more comfortable with removing the "Princess" title from both articles rather than just Daisy's. Yes, Peach is often called "Princess Peach", but I find it comparable to Koopa minions referring to Bowser as "Lord Bowser" or "King Bowser" (or, in the case of game titles such as Super Princess Peach or Princess Peach Showtime, it's comparable to the Super Mario games, which bear this title even if there's no Super Mushrooms to turn Mario into Super Mario).
  9. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
  10. Hewer (talk) Fine, second choice.
  11. Cadrega86 (talk) Per all.
  12. Jdtendo (talk) Per all.
  13. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
  14. WayslideCool (talk) Per proposal. Consistent with how we've handled this sort of thing in other contexts, would feel weird to make an exception here specifically.
  15. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per all.

#Pseudo (talk) First choice, per proposal. The princess titles for both characters can definitely be seen as their full names, but it seems to occupy a similar space to "King Bowser" in most games.
#EvieMaybe (talk) per Altendo, specifically

Only move Peach

Only move Daisy

  1. JanMisali (talk) Second choice, as proposer.
  2. Pseudo (talk) Second choice, since Daisy has stronger reason to be moved.
  3. Tails777 (talk) Secondary choice. Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" far less than Peach is referred to as "Princess Peach", with some modern games still using Peach's title. Daisy is almost always just referred to as "Daisy".
  4. Koopa con Carne (talk) per the case being made for Daisy. Games and other media as recent as Princess Peach Showtime and the Mario Movie alternate between naming Peach with and without the honorific, so MarioWiki:Naming cannot enforce one over the other based on recency, frequency, or source priority. None of this can be said about Daisy, however. Some have argued that "Daisy" is chosen for functional purposes within games, i.e. is an attempt to keep the character's name short in areas where you can allocate a piece of text only so much memory--and I'd understand the argument, if it weren't for cases like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)", "Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer)", and "Purple Koopa (Freerunning)" which push that memory limit much further than "Princess Daisy" ever could. I also question why the naming scheme of either character has to remain consistent with the other just for the sake of it; if their patently similar appearance and roles is the sole thrust behind this point of view, what's stopping Rosalina from being moved to "Princess Rosalina", then? That's an official title, too. Better lock in and make the facts readily apparent on the fan encyclopedia.
  5. Hewer (talk) Per Koopa con Carne. I see the argument for moving Peach as well, but feel more strongly that Daisy should be moved since she's rarely called "Princess Daisy".
  6. Super Mario RPG (talk) Secondary choice.
  7. Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary choice. We need to do something about Daisy, at least.
  8. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per Koopa con Carne.
  9. Cadrega86 (talk) Secondary choice, Daisy is pretty much never referred to as "Princess Daisy" as her primary name.
  10. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) Per Koopa con Carne.
  11. UltraMario (talk) Per all. I voted on the other one so that both Princesses could not get changed, but I'm also going to vote this because I agree that Daisy should just be called Daisy, specifically.

Keep both princesses the same

  1. SeanWheeler (talk) Stop shortening names! Seriously, I knew this was next after the Koopaling proposal.
  2. Mario (talk) I don't think any these moves are great (especially the one where "Shadow the Hedgehog" was shortened, I dislike that one). They greatly hinder searches on the wiki (in Peach's case, it's going to conflict with the fruit), and more people online are going to search "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to find the character. What these moves are going to do, like with those older name moves (which I am not on board with) is going to have searches rely on redirects. I'm not sure how much SEO and search engine discoverability is going to be impacted (Porple confirmed with me on Discord that it will certainly hinder discoverability on search engines but it's not catastrophic, just something to keep in mind) but I think there is a great reason we chose Chuckster over Pianta Thrower. These are distinct, recognizable names. Don't fix what isn't broken, and the current method of piping and using redirects for the shortened, overlapping names seemed to serve us well enough.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Mario. I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. Some of these make sense (E. Gadd is rarely called Elvin, the Koopalings' full names seem to be mostly phased out these days), but the Sonic proposal was a misstep IMO. Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it. I feel less strongly about Daisy, admittedly.
  4. UltraMario (talk) Per all.
  5. Pseudo (talk) Upon further thought and seeing Mario and Waluigi Time's votes, I'm inclined to think that moving pages like this is probably not such a wise idea, especially as it hurts searchability. I've removed my original vote for merging both and now consider this my primary one, though I think that moving Daisy would still be alright with me.
  6. FanOfYoshi (talk) Yeah, no; per all. We'd need a counterproposal... That Sonic proposal already was a pretty bad enough decision as-is and this... this is no different.
  7. MeritC (talk) Per all; first of all, in terms of a fan managed encyclopedia like this, it's still the best route to keep the "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" article titles for this Wiki, even though certain and recent games like the sports, kart racing, and Mario Party games just address the two as "Peach" and "Daisy" in their names. Plus, in terms of linking their names to the respective articles, we're already making sure that "Peach" links to the "Princess Peach" article and "Daisy" links to the "Princess Daisy" article anyway.
  8. Arend (talk) Secondary choice, the current names are fine too.
  9. Dwhitney (talk) Per all. Also, Daisy is referred to as Princess Daisy in Mario Tennis Aces.
  10. Lakituthequick (talk) Per all, in particular Mario and WT. As for the SEO point, while that certainly does matter (even outside of "corporate" contexts), in this case it's just clearer to denote the princesses with their titles. SEO happens to be a happy by-product of that.
  11. SmokedChili (talk) Per all. Since these proposals are made with following the rules in mind, then the obvious alternative is to change the rules. The naming guidelines have nothing about full names and titles, that should be changed so that conditions pertaining to them to allow use of extending their titles based on official material over (identifiers). Let's use Princess Peach as an example. "Princess Peach" was first seen in Yoshi's Safari then later in Mario 64 and here and there ever since. Thus "Princess" is part of Peach and should be kept as "Princess Peach" to distinquish from Peach the fruit. Same with Roy Koopa and Roy from Mario Golf, the latter doesn't really need an identifier if the former is moved back to his full name. On the other hand, I've been also thinking such a policy would have to be restrictive: "Princess Peach Toadstool" wouldn't be legit because it wasn't seen in Yoshi's Safari first, "King Bowser" wouldn't be either for similar reasons, "Boo Diddly" wouldn't count because it's only seen in Mario 3 and its remakes, and Mollusque-Lanceur's full name won't because it comes from a secondary source and its length may be an issue. There's probably a lot more that needs to be figured out, those are just examples that came to my mind.
  12. MCD (talk) Per all.
  13. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.
  14. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
  15. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all. And don't move my username to just Sophie.
  16. DesaMatt (talk) Per all, but not strongly.
  17. Shoey (talk) Per all
  18. PnnyCrygr (talk) Per all. Removing the princess prefix could confuse them for the actual fruit and the actual flower, respectively. We have also an article about the LM ghost knows as Daisy. The "Peach Blossom" move involves Peach summoning literal Peaches, to give an example. Better to keep them "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy".
  19. Ray Trace (talk) I really want to move Sonic back to Sonic the Hedgehog and Shadow the Hedgehog.

#EvieMaybe (talk) per Waluigi Time

Princess Comments, Peach

@SeanWheeler: Why is shortening names a bad thing? If the shortened name is the more current title of a character or game, shouldn't the article be moved to the more current title? The length of the titles of the characters is not the main issue here; it's how current those titles are. Mari0fan100 (talk) 20:41, November 9, 2024 (EST)

@Mario: Given "Peach" and "Daisy" are very commonly used names, and also shorter (thus easier to type), I can't imagine it being that bad for searches. The shortened names are also "distinct, recognizable names", and the ones Nintendo is fine to use for the characters (as well as what I usually hear fans call them), so why shouldn't we follow suit (especially given all the other renaming proposals, some of which, e.g. Bobbery and TEC, had literally no opposition)?
@Waluigi Time: I would argue Princess Daisy isn't really "still in frequent use". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:13, November 10, 2024 (EST)

I think if I wanted to look up the Mario character named "Daisy" in Google, I would use "Princess Daisy" to try to get more results that aren't daisies. Mario's popular, but not the center of all reality. (Though a company selling BB guns somehow beats out the plant.) Google suggests I may also want to use "Daisy mario". Bobbery is unique enough to be the main topic of that name. TEC has technology companies beat out the character unless "TEC-XX" is used.
Super Mario Wiki appears to be far enough ahead in results that if Google recognizes the search is for a character this site is first up, even in cases like Bobbery, TEC, and Ludwig. But I'm no search engineer, so I don't know if changing the article names can impact this.Salmancer (talk) 06:29, November 10, 2024 (EST)
I was more referring to searches on the wiki itself. Google searches shouldn't really be what determines page names in my opinion, or we'd have a good case to move Pauline to "Mayor Pauline" (or to add "mario" in brackets to a ton of article titles). Either way, I feel like having to search "daisy mario" instead of "princess daisy" (as I imagine many people already do) isn't that big a deal. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:44, November 10, 2024 (EST)
As I alluded to, my reasoning mostly concerns Peach, but I don't really want to put my official support behind a Daisy move either, which is why I chose that option. IMO, external searchability absolutely should be something taken into consideration when it's relevant, but not the deciding factor. At the end of the day, a wiki is here for its readers, so let's not make it needlessly harder on them to find things if we can help it. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:56, November 10, 2024 (EST)
I'd think using the name the character most commonly goes by would make it more intuitive to find. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:15, November 10, 2024 (EST)
I'm not convinced that switching to a shorter name has any negative influence on external searchability regardless of if that should be a priority or not. We're still on the front page of Google results for "Shadow the Hedgehog wiki", and the only results that come up before our "Shadow (character)" article are from Wikipedia and dedicated Sonic wikis. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 13:51, November 10, 2024 (EST)
I don't understand why the topic of SEO is still part of the debate. It's a misplaced priority. This site is a community-run educational resource, not a corporate product that you're incentivized to optimize every little aspect of in the name of clicks. Look at Fandom--outwardly, it provides the former, but it's also an ad-ridden hellhole artificially planted on the front page of Google results with no regard to the quality or accuracy of the content herein. I'm questioning whether it's worth compromising accuracy so the wiki could compete with such actors. Not to say this site would exist without traffic and participation at all, every project needs funding and other manners of support, but, like
guys,
This is the biggest resource on the Internet for the most popular video game franchise on the planet.
Do you really believe losing 0.005% of total searches because Glup Shitto got renamed to the less popular but more accurate "Shart Faqeer" is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:33, November 10, 2024 (EST), edited 10:55, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I think "corporate product" is a bit of a misread. Rather, there is little value in maintaining an encyclopedia that people cannot find. I do not know if it impacts this particular case (i.e. when I last searched "wendy mario" or "wendy o. koopa" on Google, our article still shows up near or at the top, regardless of name), but I do not think it is invalid to keep in mind.
I think it is worth keeping in mind that the Super Mario Wiki has different goals than a character-selection screen or a level-selection screen, which typically prefer simple truncated names. New Super Mario Bros. U refers to a boss as "Larry" in one context and as "Larry Koopa" in another. An encyclopedic reference that encompasses many series and subjects may similarly best support its information by adopting fuller names with discretion. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:22, November 10, 2024 (EST)
The character select screen name shortening argument has already been addressed: names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)" are longer than "Princess Daisy", yet the former is used while the latter is not. Clearly Nintendo just has a preference for the shorter name, so we should too. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:59, November 10, 2024 (EST)
This is not consistent though. On the character-selection screen in Super Mario Bros. Wonder, you can select "Light-Blue Yoshi." The standees for this character's name is truncated as "L. Blue Yoshi." The Star Fox protagonist goes by "Fox" on the character-selection screen for the Super Smash Bros. titles, but goes by "Fox McCloud" on the costume list for Super Mario Maker. Our pink princess character goes by "Princess Peach" on the box for her standalone game, and simply as "Peach" in the game itself. Is it invalid to suggest whether a character goes by a truncated or full name is really context dependent, and less about the phasing out of monikers or surnames for certain characters? If the former, is Super Mario Wiki inherently not the platform where full names would be helpful? And if it is not, why? - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:07, November 10, 2024 (EST)
The length of a character's name can undoubtedly be subject to technical limitations in a game. I personally just don't think this is necessarily the case with Daisy's name as of today, and my view is that the wiki should be observing what the most current official consensus on those names is. The standees in Wonder are a highly particular instance of name rendering even within the game; the character selection screen otherwise uses "Light-Blue Yoshi" and "Daisy" simultaneously, and I'd hazard a guess that players are more likely to make better note of those than how they are rendered in the standee menu. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:41, November 10, 2024 (EST), edited 19:50, November 10, 2024 (EST)
As people have related in this discussion, Mario Wiki tends to be pushed forward in Google results for a Mario character. It is decidedly not an encyclopedia people cannot find. Porplemontage can probably conjure some projections, he has the data for this sort of thing after all, but I'm confident given the wiki's size and popularity that Mario Wiki will remain in the top search results for "peach mario" and "daisy mario" whether the characters retain or lose their mantle titles. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:04, November 10, 2024 (EST), edited 19:12, November 10, 2024 (EST)
@JanMisali Same with googling "shadow sonic wiki". Even just "shadow wiki" still brings up his Mario Wiki article on the second page on my end, which is pretty impressing considering the breadth of coverage either of the words "shadow" and "wiki" have on the Internet. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:48, November 10, 2024 (EST)

@MeritC: "We'd have to change links" is never a good argument. If this passes, a bot will take care of fixing all the links. That's how we were able to rename the "Super Mario (franchise)" page, probably one of the most linked to pages on the entire wiki, with no issue. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:59, November 10, 2024 (EST)

@Dwhitney Where in Mario Tennis Aces is the name "Princess Daisy" used? I can't find any evidence of her being called anything but "Daisy" in that game. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 10:27, November 11, 2024 (EST)

It's right there in the beginning of the story mode. This video, around the 5:15 time mark. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 11:19, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Ah, missed that. Thanks! But regardless, it's definitely not her primary name in that game. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 12:25, November 11, 2024 (EST)

It should also be noted that the Super Mario Land manual consistently refers to Daisy as "Princess Daisy" in the story section and gameplay section; the character section is the only place in the manual where she's referred to as just "Daisy" (plus mistakenly calling her "Daisy Princess" as well). The manual of Mario Kart: Double Dash refers to her as "Princess Daisy" once, too. I get that these aren't exactly "in-game" materials, but that should put "Princess Daisy" on the same level as the Koopalings' full names.
Do Super Smash Bros. games count too, btw? Palutena has referred to her as "Princess Daisy". ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 11:43, November 11, 2024 (EST)

I mentioned Smash Bros. in my previous proposal about this. She's called Daisy everywhere else in that game, including elsewhere in that same Palutena's Guidance conversation. But yes, I agree that "Princess Daisy" is a name used on the same level as the full names of the Koopalings, and I think we should use it the same way we use the Koopalings' full names (ie. not in the article title). jan Misali (talk · contributions) 12:25, November 11, 2024 (EST)

@SmokedChili: There is no universe where peach the fruit that made minor appearances in five games could get naming priority on this wiki over Peach the major character with hundreds of appearances. That's why Peach already redirects to the character, and Peach (fruit) already has an identifier - shortening the name wouldn't change that. The same goes for Roy - the Mario Tennis character always had an identifier for years before Roy Koopa's name was shortened, because the former is significantly less prominent and less likely to be what people searching "Roy" are looking for. (Also, Mollusque-Lanceur's full name recently appeared in Nintendo Music, which I don't think is a "secondary source", and length wouldn't be an issue.) Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)

Why would the fruit need an identifier if Peach being in the "Princess Peach" page frees up the "Peach" page? And why use conveniences this wiki made up over what's found in official material? Wiki-made identifiers should thus be used as sparingly as possible. And my argument for Mollusque-Lanceur is that by using naming priority, since his short name comes from the in-game music player while his full name comes from the Prima guide, the latter shouldn't be qualified for use as a page title even if it comes up later. SmokedChili (talk) 13:13, November 14, 2024 (EST)
The reason "Peach (fruit)" needs an identifier is that a user who goes to www.mariowiki.com and types "Peach" into the search bar is more likely to be looking for information about one of the main characters of the Super Mario franchise than the fruit. It's the same reason Mario 1 (level) needs an identifier. Even if the thing it's disambiguating itself from isn't the name the wiki actually uses for that subject, one subject is simply so much more notable than the other that we choose to disambiguate other articles from even its unofficial names. This is a strictly positive thing for the user experience of anyone using this wiki, and I strongly disagree with the implication that we should stop considering "which subject is a user who searches for this term on this wiki more likely to be looking for?" to be a priority. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 14:25, November 14, 2024 (EST)
The difference is that Mario 1 (level) references SMB (and even then adding an identifier sounds like an overreaction) while Peach got her name from the fruit. Your assumption also ignores the possibility that readers may know about peach fruits and/or call Peach "Princess Peach" in their heads regardless of how formal the source is, so the search result argument wouldn't be as reliable because how many actually search for "Peach" over "Princess Peach" when they want the character? SmokedChili (talk) 04:55, November 17, 2024 (EST)
I think you're missing the point of identifiers and redirects a bit. Plenty of people would search "Peach" instead of "Princess Peach" (after all, it's shorter so easier to type), and I can't imagine the positives could outweigh the negatives of making it not redirect to the obviously more likely intended result. It would just harm the wiki's usability. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:11, November 17, 2024 (EST)

@SmokedChili Peach is not called "Princess Peach" at any point in Super Mario 64. She is called "Princess Toadstool", "Peach", "the Princess", and "Princess Toadstool, Peach". jan Misali (talk · contributions) 12:48, November 11, 2024 (EST)

For clarity, this is not true. According to our own article Toad says "Hold on to your hat! If you lose it, you’ll be easily injured. If you lose it, look for the course where you lost it. Speaking of lost, Princess Peach is still stuck in the walls somewhere. Please help, Mario! Oh, you know there are secret worlds in the walls as well as in the paintings, right?" And in Super Mario 64 DS, the narrator also refers to her as "Princess Peach." People should do with that what they will. "Peach" is still more commonly used in the game, but it is not in isolation from "Princess Peach." - Nintendo101 (talk)
That article contains a mix of quotes from both Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS. The corresponding Ukikipedia article, which has a direct textdump of the raw text files from the Nintendo 64 game, has the original dialogue and does not contain the name "Princess Peach". jan Misali (talk · contributions) 14:40, November 14, 2024 (EST)
We should most certainly revise our naming conventions, since it's warranting proposals for every character to be moved to just their first names. And now that we have the Sonic restaurant, the hedgehog should definitely get his full name back. And with Shadow and Big, their full names would be better page titles than identifiers. And after opposing the proposal to add identifiers to similarly named pages, I might advocate for Peach (fruit) to get it's identifier removed just for the princess to keep her title. That page already has the {{About}} template linking to the princess anyway. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:52, November 13, 2024 (EST)
Are you suggesting that someone who types "Peach" into the search bar on mariowiki.com and presses enter is more likely to be looking for the fruit than the character? jan Misali (talk · contributions) 00:29, November 14, 2024 (EST)
Sonic Drive-In also changes nothing, it's called Sonic Drive-In and not just Sonic. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:53, November 14, 2024 (EST)
Alright, whose responsible this? Still, it's not like "Princess Peach" completely disappeared after being seen in Yoshi's Safari first. SmokedChili (talk) 13:16, November 14, 2024 (EST)

@LadySophie17 To be clear, the purpose of this proposal is not simply a preference for shorter names. I wrote the proposal to move our article about The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens to her full title for the same reason I think it makes sense for our article about Daisy to be moved to "Daisy". We should prioritize the most common current primary name of a subject regardless of if that's a shorter name than their most formal full name or a longer name than what most fans would rather call them. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 14:07, November 14, 2024 (EST)

I'm aware. My comment was a just a cheeky remark at the fact that simply "Sophie" is the most common current primary name of the subject that is me. — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 14:19, November 14, 2024 (EST)
Joke's on you, I'm writing a proposal for your name as we speak. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:23, November 14, 2024 (EST)

@PnnyCrygr We don't have an article about Daisy from Luigi's Mansion 2. That character is covered in a subsection of a longer article. Lower on this very page there is currently a proposal that has literally no opposition that's suggesting that it's unnecessary to use the title to disambiguate between a subject that has an article and a subject that only has a subsection of an article. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 08:51, November 16, 2024 (EST)

Thanks for the heads-up. Now I remember. Don't click Penny PnnyCrygr User contributions 09:07, November 16, 2024 (EST)

Where did the "Drive-In" part of the name come from? The logo only has the word "Sonic" and every commercial I've seen simply called it Sonic. At least with Sonic the Hedgehog, his full name has been the title of many games and media, and he was called such quite frequently in his franchise. Sonic Drive-In is just advertised as Sonic. I only saw that full name as a wiki page title. If a crossover character has the same common name as a restuarant, who gets the short name? SeanWheeler (talk) 20:47, November 17, 2024 (EST)

The character? This is a problem this wiki has already solved. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 21:39, November 17, 2024 (EST)
How had the wiki already solved that problem? By the fact that Sonic the Hedgehog was already moved to Sonic by the time the Sonic Drive-In got an article? Considering the Sonic Drive-In article is about Sonic's promotion of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam in 2016, it was created eight years late. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:38, November 18, 2024 (EST)
The way the wiki solved the problem is that "Sonic" is the article about the character (and in fact already redirected to the article about the character before it was moved) and "Sonic Drive-In" is the article about the restaurant. Unless you're suggesting that we should change this (and I legitimately cannot think of a single good reason why we would), there isn't really anything else to say about the matter. That just factually is the solution that is currently in place to the problem being asked about. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 17:29, November 18, 2024 (EST)
Why do you bring up the Sonic Drive-In page being "eight years late" like it's relevant? Sonic the character was relevant to the Mario franchise years before Sonic the restaurant anyway. The idea that the character can't be called just "Sonic" despite generally being called that in his several Mario appearances but the restaurant that has an article because of one promotion in 2016 must be called just "Sonic" sounds biased to me. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 20:04, November 18, 2024 (EST)
Well, with the proposal to rename the princesses by their shorter more common referred names failing, it would be good to rethink some of the earlier renaming proposals. Especially the one about the crossover characters being moved, because I feel like a lot of these characters would lose their identity without their full names here, a few of them like Shadow got the unnecessary "(character)" identifier, because Shadow is a Super Mario RPG enemy, and there are still other users wanting to overturn that proposal. And if Zelda were to get her article back, I would want it to be consistent with Peach and Daisy. I do want to overturn that proposal that put the Smash characters on list pages, because I am not a fan of having articles stacked together as a list like we did with the Banjo and Conker series pages long ago, the sections for Mario characters and characters who made more Mario appearances linking to their own pages making those pages even less about the franchise we're about, and because of the amiibo having them appear in Super Mario Maker and other games. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:37, November 19, 2024 (EST)
And yet proposals like this, that, and the other passed with no opposition. Not sure how the Smash list pages are relevant, but the point of them is to cover the fighters not relevant enough to Mario for their own pages, so naturally they'll be some of the less Mario-relevant pages. If your problem is them not being relevant to Mario, I don't see how splitting all the characters back out will help. At this point I feel like outright deletion is probably the more likely eventual fate of those list pages, to be honest. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:54, November 20, 2024 (EST)
Those list pages for the fighters aren't just covering Smash, but other appearances they had with Mario such as Super Mario Maker. Pit has so many Mario appearances that I'm wondering why he's on the Brawl list instead of getting his own article. The fighters who didn't appear with Mario outside of Smash would definitely be deleted, unless the majority votes to keep all of them. But I'm voting to split the ones with Mario cameos and delete the rest. SeanWheeler (talk) 20:16, November 20, 2024 (EST)
Those cameos are not notable enough to warrant their own articles, though. You're suggesting that being in Smash doesn't automatically make a character relevant to Mario, but also that being in Smash is what makes a character whose other appearances are a few cameos worthy of an article. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:44, November 21, 2024 (EST)

Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s)

Mario Kart Tour has quite the reputation on this wiki in terms of pages, at one time nearly forming the top ten of the largest pages here in terms of bit size. However, what was glossed over was the size of Tour's template, being large enough to hold several templates within itself, and making the page, should the user click on it, almost double in length, more so with the other templates open. Using DS DK Pass as an example, a page for a race course that doesn't have a lot of information on it making for a relatively quick read, is now nearly half taken up by the monstrously large Mario Kart Tour template.

A total of four sub templates exist within the Mario Kart Tour template: Characters (and their skins), Vehicle Parts, Courses, and Other (miscellaneous). For example, if the Courses template were split off and applied to DS DK Pass' page, it would make for a much more palatable experience for those looking for courses found in Tour, rather than making the reader scroll for a centuries and looking for it amongst a sea of numerous skins and kart parts.

Proposer: MightyMario (talk)
Deadline: November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. MightyMario (talk) I heartily endorse this proposal.
  2. Tails777 (talk) I kinda agree with this. I feel this would be a bit more organized too, so people don't have to scroll through loads of characters, karts and other things just to find the tracks section. I have found myself on numerous occasions jumping from track articles and with Tour's template, it was rather irritating searching through massive sections of characters and tours just to find tracks. I support this idea.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) We've split navigation templates for much less, this makes sense for the sheer amount of content in the game.
  4. ThePowerPlayer (talk) A navigation template that buries content in an area larger than an entire computer screen defeats the purpose.
  5. Super Mario RPG (talk) Agreed with all.
  6. EvieMaybe (talk) per all
  7. Dark Jonathan (talk) I didn't know Tour templates gave so many problems, but hey, that's a good proposal.
  8. BMfan08 (talk) I was just thinking about this the other day when I was changing tense on tour articles. It's definitely a lot to take in, and it's also overlooked because people don't put into a template quite as much as they do a page. I agree with this idea.
  9. SeanWheeler (talk) Per all.
  10. PnnyCrygr (talk) This will make page-by-page navigation of MKT articles more efficient or convenient. Supporting.
  11. Mario (talk) The size of this nav template would make Wario proud, but I'm sure this complaint has already been forwarded to a lot of aspects of Mario Kart Tour content on this wiki.

Oppose

Comments

I think alternatively, they could be given different collapsible sections, like we do with the galleries template. But I agree it is overwhelmingly enormous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:58, November 10, 2024 (EST)

We're talking about the navigation template at the bottom of these pages, right? Because that's the only Tour-related template on the DS DK Pass article (subpages notwithstanding) and it's indeed quite huge. If we do split it off into several subtemplates, I suppose it'd be comparable to various levels from specific platformer titles having a navbox template for themselves instead of sharing a primary nabvox template with the rest of that game's content (e.g. Super Bell Hill featuring {{SM3DW levels}} instead of {{SM3DW}}); or the existence of various navigation templates for the various microgames or minigames in specific WarioWare or Mario Party title. So while it's atypical for us to split Mario Kart-specific nav templates, it's not unheard of for us to split off nav templates in the first place. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 17:04, November 10, 2024 (EST)

Allow certain proposals to close after one week

Alright, hear me out.

Recently, a proposal has passed, making all proposals last for 2 weeks instead of 1. Though I was opposed to this change, I can definitely now see the benefit of giving proposals more discussion time. However, not all proposals need that extra week. Some proposals leave zero room for discussion, because everyone already agrees with the proposer. So the proposal just sits for another week and the outcome obviously isn't going to change. I propose to introduce a rule that would close proposals with high participation and unanimous consensus after one week, like it was before that. Let me explain:

  1. If a proposal has 10+ votes with no opposition or 12+ votes with 1 oppose vote by the end of the first week, it passes.
  2. Same applies to proposals with unanimous opposition, 12+ oppose votes with only 1 support vote (that being of proposer, or 10 if the proposer didn't vote) closes a proposal at the end of the first week.
  3. If this condition isn't met, a proposal runs for two weeks as expected, even if it gets 10 votes after one week. In short, the proposal only has one opportunity to get closed early: at the end of the first week.
    Proposals with more than two options also abide by this rule, though they're very unlikely to ever close early. Though it can happen! If the proposal has multiple options, it probably needs more discussion time anyway, so I decided not to touch those at the moment.
  4. If the proposal has an ongoing discussion in the comments section or the proposal may for any other reason benefit from running for two weeks to generate more discussion (e.g. writing guidelines, wiki policy changes, etc.), both the proposer and the admin team have the right to add the "Do not close early" tag below the deadline (they then need to state their reasoning for doing so in the comments). This will ensure proposals with unanimous support that need that extra week of time can still get it.
  5. When closing the proposal early, the deadline needs to be crossed out and "Closed early on ..." needs to be added instead:
Deadline: November 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT Closed early on November 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT

This rule will not apply to talk page proposals

I believe this change to be a good compromise between giving proposals more discussion time and eliminating proposals that can do without it.

Proposer: Axii (talk)
Deadline: November 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Axii (talk) This can be a good compromise
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Altendo (talk) Why drag on proposals that already have anonymous support? Per proposal.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) This makes sense to us! We are a little on-the-fence about the exact thresholds, but this is definitely a pretty elegant system to help unanimous proposals pass sooner, and given it has only one method to proc, it leaves it pretty shenanigan-proof.
  5. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Sounds good!
  6. EvieMaybe (talk) per!
  7. Killer Moth (talk) Sounds like a good idea. Per proposal.
  8. OmegaRuby (talk) An idea I and others brought up in the initial proposal that made proposals two weeks long. Yes!

Oppose

Comments

Would this also apply to talk page proposals? Never mind, I can't read. I do think this could apply to TPPs though. What's your reasoning for it not? Technetium (talk) 14:09, November 13, 2024 (EST)

Talk page proposals just aren't as visible to the community as mainspace proposals are, so I believe they should still last for two weeks regardless. They also do not clutter the proposals page. I may consider adding it as a third option. Axii (talk) 14:13, November 13, 2024 (EST)
Axil, I think it's a better idea to replace a direct URL ([https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Revise_how_long_proposals_take:_.22IT.27S_ABOUT_.28how_much.29_TIME_.28they_take.29.22 proposal]) to a direct wikilink ([[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Revise how long proposals take: "IT'S ABOUT (how much) TIME (they take)"|proposal]]) so that it removes bytes on the archive page and doesn't always open a new window when clicked. Just my recommendation, though.
Also, what happens with proposals that somehow retain the aspect ratio of at least 12 to 1 (like 25 support votes to 2 oppose votes)? I feel like the case for closing proposals after one week with oppose votes should be changed to a ratio of at least 12 to 1, not at least 12 support votes and only 1 oppose vote. Altendo 15:07, November 13, 2024 (EST)

I think clause 2 needs to explicitly account for proposals where the proposer does not vote in support of their own proposal. It's not the least common thing in the world, after all — and if we miss it, we could have people retracting their solitary vote to buy more time, which would not be an intended feature of this. Ahemtoday (talk) 02:59, November 14, 2024 (EST)

This proposal only considers two-option proposals. We could adapt rules 1 and 2 to take into account any proposal, regardless of the number of voting options: "A proposal must meet these criteria to be closed early: the first place option must have at least 10 votes and at least 92% approval, and the second place option must have at most one vote". This is equivalent to rules 1 and 2 for two-option proposals (though I don't quite understand what would happen in rule 2 if the only support vote is from a user who is not the proposer), and it would work well with {{proposal check}}. Jdtendo(T|C) 08:00, November 21, 2024 (EST)

It is too late to modify the proposal now, though I like your idea. Axii (talk) 08:36, November 21, 2024 (EST)

What to do with Steve and Ike

Despite that now the Smash Bros. characters don't get their own articles but instead grouped into lists by game, the actual Mario characters that have the same name as Smash fighters (being Steve from NES Open Tournament Golf and Ike from The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!) don't have their identifiers removed. This has been brought up before, however no actions have been taken. I think there is some good points to these identifiers being removed.

  • Roy, Alex and Zombie don't have identifiers despite also sharing names with Smash Bros. characters.
  • If a casual user wanted to find information on Steve from Minecraft, they'd go to the Minecraft Wiki. If they wanted more detailed information for Steve in Smash, they'd go to the Smash Bros. Wiki, not here.
  • This could easily be distinguished with the "about" template.

With these points, I really don't see any reason for these identifiers. They're pointless if anything. This is a Mario wiki. Mario elements should take priority over things we don't fully cover anymore.

Proposer: Starluxe (talk)
Deadline: November 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Starluxe (talk) Per proposal!
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) i feel some ways about the level of coverage we give Smash stuff. per proposal
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) Very straightforward update to these article names given the merging.
  5. UltraMario (talk) Per all.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) Makes sense to us. Per proposal.
  7. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  8. Jdtendo (talk) Per proposal.
  9. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.
  10. BMfan08 (talk) Per all.

Oppose

Comments

Tag images of bind-posing models for reuploading

It's been two years since the previous proposal had passed. Now let's talk about tagging images of bind-posing models for reuploading. Take this image for example. As you can see, this image is a bind-posing model. Once this proposal passes, we'll be able to tag every bind-posing model with this:

{{image-quality|Bind-posing model; should be replaced with a rendered game model}}

That way, if a bind-posing model is reuploaded as a rendered game model that serves as a replacement, we'll be able to reuse it as an infobox image.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: November 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

#ThePowerPlayer (talk) Like I said in the other proposal, T-poses are generally not how characters are supposed to look. If this is any indication, the wiki should favor game accuracy in images.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) I think it is great when users replace images of bind-posed (or "t-posed") models with organically rendered ones. It is a practice I personally encourage and welcome. However, I do think there can be educational and illustrative purposes to bind-posed models, and I think a blanket rule would put unnecessary pressure on the users of this site to render models when a bind-posed one can be more than serviceable, and may even discourage the cataloging of 3D assets in the future if a user cannot render them. Rendering models is a very time-consuming process, and I think it is healthier to just allow users to replace the bind-posed images we have if they can. Not require them to. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) this seems better handled on a case-by-case basis rather than a full sweep
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
  4. Hewer (talk) Per all, a hard rule isn't necessary here.
  5. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Nintendo101. Given there are scenarios where bind-posed/T-posed models are actually more illustrative than properly rigged alternatives, we should probably handle these on a case-by-case basis.
  7. Mario (talk) Tag them if they're bad quality, not because they're t-posed.

Comments

Wording should be changed to "bind pose" since not all characters are T-posed, especially non-bipeds (like Yoshi from Super Smash Bros. Melee or Brawl, Wiggler, Buzzy Beetles, Piranha Plants, and more) and A-pose exists as a default pose too. In addition, models technically aren't "t-posing", they're modeled this way before animations and a rig are applied to them, the wording makes them look like they're animating when they're not. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:36, November 15, 2024 (EST)

Does this proposal advocate replacing these ripped models with ones that are posed from a screenshot or posed in a 3d program with ripped animation files? Not all models are ripped with animations, so it's a bit of a task to undertake if you really want models with animations AND a rig (let's not get started in lighting, which is a separate skillset that's demanded from renderers; not many people get the lighting very good, no offense!); a chunk of models tend to not have a rig, much less an animation. Additionally, some t-posed models are great to use when comparing models or viewing models as they are. File:MLNPC.png is an example where it's easy to compare the proportions of Mario, PC Luigi, and NPC Luigi. Sure, you can probably put them all in a orthographic lineup in the same keyframe of a shared animation, but due to the arms, legs, spine, and head all straightened out, it's better to illustrate in T-pose imo. Icon showing how many lives Mario has left. From Super Mario 64 DS. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:00, November 15, 2024 (EST)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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