MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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{| align="center" style="width: 85%; background-color: #f1f1de; border: 2px solid #996; padding: 5px; color:black"
|'''Proposals''' can be new features (such as an extension), removal of a previously added feature that has tired out, or new policies that must be approved via [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] before any action(s) are done.
*Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., "I like this idea!"
*"Vote" periods last for one week.
*All past proposals are [[/Archive|archived]].
|}
A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code <nowiki>{{User|</nowiki>''User name''<nowiki>}}</nowiki>.


This page observes the [[MarioWiki:No-Signature Policy|No-Signature Policy]].
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
 
==New features==
===Create a template to crop images on-the-fly without having to tamper with the base file's dimensions===
{{Early notice|December 4}}
So {{user|Wildgoosespeeder}} shared this nifty template that TCRF has: [[tcrf:Template:CSS image crop]], which allows images to be displayed in mainspace at a cut-out size from how they are on the image files themselves. This has two utilities: one is shrinking to a relevant entity in group textures such as {{file link|M&SatL2012OG Wii audience.png|this one}}, and the other is to avoid blank space without having to crop the raw graphic parameters - thus allowing best-of-both-worlds for the previous proposal I attempted (and failed), as it satisfies the OCD itch of avoiding bad and/or inconsistent crops on the base files without taking up unnecessary space where the images are actually used. It also removes a lot of unnecessary work actually cropping/uncropping images since you don't have to save them to a machine/web address to upload a new version - you can just put in the parameters you want and go from there.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====C-S-Yes====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Goes without saying I think this is a good idea.
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Sounds like a reasonable compromise.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} It's better to crop an existing image programmatically than having to upload a cropped version for a specific use case.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Seems useful.
#{{user|Wildgoosespeeder}} Sometimes I just find random things on other Wikis and remember a previously failed proposal. I hope this helps out!
#{{user|EvieMaybe}} per Jdtendo! this seems very useful
#{{User|Axii}} Per proposal.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} I guess this could lead to less image editing which is definitely a positive.
 
====No new template====
 
====Comments on CSS image crop====
This appears to be similar to [[Template:Squared icon|a template I have made]] in order to crop images to perfectly squared off icons for uses on pages such as [[Pipe Frame]] (e.g. displaying Mii Racing Suit icons in the same table as other character icons); however, the version you're presenting seems to include more options. I'm not gonna vote yet, but so far I don't see the harm to have this other template too. {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:42, November 27, 2024 (EST)
 
==Removals==
===Remove video game console generations===
I would imagine most people who have discussed video games in the past have heard of {{wp|History of video_game consoles#Console generations|video game console generations}}. It is a tool to categorize video game hardware and its place in time. There is just one problem: the current video game console generation system is flawed. If you would like to further read into the specifics as to why I would recommend this [https://www.timeextension.com/features/is-wikipedia-really-to-blame-for-video-game-console-generations Time Extension article] by Jack Yarwood. But in short, the phrase "next generation" originates as a term used starting around the 1990s, as video games evolved over the many years, Wikipedia editors would create their own video game console generation system that has for the most part remained unchanged since its introduction in the early 2000s. This generation system would slowly be adopted by other sites, media, and the people who engage with video games.
 
Within the scope of the major [[Nintendo]] video game consoles, this is currently how the video game console generation system is categorized.


<h2 style="color:black">How To</h2>
First generation: [[Color TV-Game]]<br>
#Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
Second generation: [[Game & Watch]]<br>
#Users then start to discuss on the issue. 24 hours after posting the proposal (rounding up or down to the next or previous full hour, respectively, is allowed), the voting period begins. (The proposer is allowed to support their proposal right after posting.) Each proposal ends at the end of the day one week after voting start. ('''All times GMT''').
Third generation: [[Family Computer]], [[Nintendo Entertainment System]]<br>
#Every vote should have a reason accompanying it. Agreeing or seconding a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted.
Fourth generation: [[Super Famicom]], [[Super Nintendo Entertainment System]], [[Game Boy]]<br>
#Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the Comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may '''not''' remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. The voter can remove or rewrite his/her own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another User's vote lies solely with the [[MarioWiki:Administrators|Administrators]].
Fifth generation: [[Nintendo 64]], [[Game Boy Color]]<br>
#All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week.
Sixth generation: [[Nintendo GameCube]], [[Game Boy Advance]]<br>
#If a proposal has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of '''three''' votes. If a proposal reaches the deadline and the total number of votes for each option differ by two or less votes, the deadline will be extended for another week.
Seventh generation: [[Wii]], [[Nintendo DS]]<br>
#Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "[[Wikipedia:Quorum|NO QUORUM]]." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
Eighth generation: [[Wii U]], [[Nintendo 3DS]], [[Nintendo Switch]]<br>
#No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than '''4 weeks''' ('''28 days''') old.
Ninth generation: [[Nintendo Switch]]<br>
#Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation. However, the proposer can request that their proposal be deleted by a [[MarioWiki:Administrators|Sysop]] at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it.
#All proposals are archived. The original proposer must '''''take action''''' accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a Sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
#There shouldn't be proposals about creating articles on a underrepresented or completely absent subject, unless there is major disagreement about whether the content should be included. To organize efforts about completing articles on missing subjects, try creating a [[MarioWiki:PipeProject|PipeProject]].
#Proposals cannot be made about [[MarioWiki:Administrators|System Operator]] promotions and demotions. Sysops can only be promoted and demoted by the will of [[MarioWiki:Bureaucrats|Bureaucrats]].
#If the Sysops deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
#No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters, and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.


The times are in [[wikipedia:GMT|GMT]], and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Monday night at 23:59 GMT, the deadline is the night of the Tuesday of the next week at 23:59 PM. If it is posted a minute later, the deadline is 23:59 PM of the Wednesday of the next week, since midnight is considered to be part of the next day, as 00:00 AM.
There is one obvious problem that you might have noticed. The Nintendo Switch is in the eighth and ninth generation. This is due to when the Nintendo Switch first released: March 3, 2017. The current system begins the ninth generation in November 2020 with the release of the {{wp|Xbox Series X and Series S|Xbox Series X/S}} and {{wp|PlayStation 5}} consoles. This is despite how for most of the lifespan of the Nintendo Switch, it has actually been competing against consoles that under this system is a whole generation ahead. Because of this, it is not entirely clear where the Nintendo Switch is in the video game console generation system and the solution is to simply file it in both generations rather than one or the other.


===Basic Proposal and Support/Oppose Format===
Now the Nintendo Switch is a hybrid console, but what about portable consoles? The current video game console generation system lumps in both home and portable consoles. If the goal of the generation system was to be based on hardware specifications than it ultimately falls flat with consoles such as the 16-bit [[Super Famicom]] and [[Super Nintendo Entertainment System]] home consoles being in the same generation as the 8-bit [[Game Boy]] portable console. For home consoles there is absolutely nothing in the second generation, with the [[Color TV-Game]] consoles being in the first and the [[Family Computer]] and [[Nintendo Entertainment System]] consoles being in the third. Portable consoles have a similar issue with nothing in the third generation, with the [[Game & Watch]] line in the second and the [[Game Boy]] being in the fourth.
This is an example how your proposal should look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to <u>replace the whole variable including the squared brackets</u>, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]".
-----
<nowiki>===[insert a title for your Proposal here]===</nowiki><br>
<nowiki>[describe what issue this Proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the Wiki handles that issue]</nowiki>


<nowiki>'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br></nowiki><br>
For these reasons, I think it should be considered to remove video game console generations from this wiki. It is ultimately a flawed tool that originates as something made up by various Wikipedia editors that stuck around for far too long without real consideration of its flaws. If video game console generations are removed, we should gravitate towards more factual descriptions that better represent the consoles.
<nowiki>'''Voting start''': [insert a voting start time here, f.e. "2 January, 2010, 14:00". Voting start times are 24 hours after the time at which the proposal was posted, as described in Rule 2 above.]<br></nowiki><br>
<nowiki>'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the voting start, at 23:59 GMT.]</nowiki>


<nowiki>====Support====</nowiki><br>
Home consoles: 1. [[Color TV-Game]] 2. [[Family Computer]], [[Nintendo Entertainment System]] 3. [[Super Famicom]], [[Super Nintendo Entertainment System]] 4. [[Nintendo 64]] 5. [[Nintendo GameCube]], 6. [[Wii]] 7. [[Wii U]] 8. [[Nintendo Switch]]<br>
<nowiki>#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]</nowiki>
Portable consoles: 1. [[Game & Watch]] 2. [[Game Boy]] 3. [[Game Boy Color]] 4. [[Game Boy Advance]] 5. [[Nintendo DS]] 6. [[Nintendo 3DS]] 7. [[Nintendo Switch]]<br>


<nowiki>====Oppose====</nowiki>
Home console example: "The [[Nintendo 64]] is the fourth [[Nintendo]] home console platform."<br>
Portable console example: "The [[Nintendo DS]] is the fifth [[Nintendo]] portable console platform."<br>
Hybrid console example: "The [[Nintendo Switch]] is the seventh portable and eighth home [[Nintendo]] console platform."<br>


<nowiki>====Comments====</nowiki>
This alternative system does have flaws with the Switch being in two categories again, however that is due to the Switch being a hybrid between a home and portable console. The reason the console is in two video game generations according to Wikipedia is not as clear. Another much straightforward solution would be to simply list the predecessor and successor of each console.
-----
Users will now be able to vote on your Proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own Proposal just like the others.


To support, or oppose, just insert "<nowiki>#{{User|[add your username here]}}</nowiki> at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's Proposal. If you are voting on your own Proposal, you can just say "Per my Proposal".
Example: "The predecessor to the [[Nintendo 64]] is the [[Super Famicom]] and [[Super Nintendo Entertainment System]] and the successor is the [[Nintendo GameCube]]."


__TOC__<!--
This is the most likely solution if video game console generations were removed. It is easy to understand and already implemented to an extent. The work required is simply the removal process with minimal addition.


<center><span style="font-size:200%">CURRENTLY: '''{{#time: H:i, d M Y}} (GMT)'''</span></center>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro3256}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} console generations make more sense when comparing against several different consoles. for our use case, they're pretty irrelevant.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and EvieMaybe.
#{{User|Bro3256}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, specifically the second suggested solution of not numbering consoles at all. Saves the unnecessary confusion.
#{{User|winstein}} Per proposal.


====Oppose====
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Regardless of contemporary awkwardness, it's still useful comparing the timelines for the ones of the past. I've ''still'' seen people not realize the GBC was in circulation around the same time of the N64 based on nothing but their respective bit-count.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} - This feels like a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". While we've always found the "console generations" thing really, really strange (as you can expect from a metric born from ''Wikipedia itself''), we can't deny that it is still useful to a degree, and unlike, say, calling unused content "beta" content, the term "console generation" is still a term that sees active use in gaming circles, even if as of late Nintendo's side of it has gotten a bit desynced. In addition, as was pointed out in the comments, the [[Philips CD-i]] is noticeably absent, but in addition to that, so is the [[Virtual Boy]], which is even more directly Nintendo related? Not that we'd particularly like this even if both of these were accounted for, mind...
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Without the Virtual Boy in here, this numbering scheme just flat-out isn't actually true. As such, I can't support this proposal.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Perhaps a better idea is to use <code>Cross-generation ({{tem|wp|Eighth generation of video game consoles|eighth}}—{{tem|wp|Ninth generation of video game consoles|ninth}})</code> on the Nintendo Switch page and use <code>{{tem|wp|[No.] generation of video game consoles|[No.] generation}}</code> on pages on all other systems. As such, I'm opposing this proposal.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick and Cam&woodstock.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I personally do not invoke console generations when writing about video games - it is not a classification system that has much value to me. I do not think I would support the carte blanche integration of console generations as a large systematic classification system on the wiki. If this proposal was just asking to remove generations from the system infobox, I might be on board. However, console generations are still a widely employed way to separate game media into different eras, and I do not think it is intrinsically harmful to mention them in a paragraph if the editor finds it helpful to relay a specific piece of information. I think users should still have the ability to exercise that freedom.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Do we have pages about console generations? I can't find any pages about generations. If you can link to any pages about console generations, I'd change my vote to support because pages about console generations on a Nintendo wiki wouldn't be useful. If this proposal is about removing references to the generations in each console page, then I have to oppose. The whole issue about which generation the Switch is from could be settled on [[Talk:Nintendo Switch|the Nintendo Switch talk page]].
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.


<br>
====Comments====
-->
I disagree with the premise, since a tool that is helpful but flawed is still helpful. Moreover, we do cover a couple of devices that do not fit on a Nintendo-exclusive relative timeline, namely the [[Philips CD-i]] and the [[Triforce]] arcade boards. I guess "contemporary to the _____" works just as well, but there's a level of "semantics over broader public" thing that I'm a little iffy about if that kind of phrasing has to be used. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 13:51, November 29, 2024 (EST)
==Talk Page Proposals==
All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the Wiki should still be held on this page.


===How To===
#All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom). All pages effected must be mentioned in the ''brief'' description, with the talk page housing the discussion linked to directly via "({{fakelink|Discuss}})". If the proposal involved a page that is not yet made, use {{tem|fakelink}} to communicate its title. The '''Deadline''' must also be included in the entry. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{tem|TPP}} under the heading.
#All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How To" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
#Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one. There is no 24 hour delay between the posting of a talk page proposal and the commencement of voting.
#Talk page proposals may be closed by the proposer if both the support ''and'' the oppose sides each have fewer than five votes.
#The talk page proposal '''must''' pertain to the article it is posted on.


===List of Talk Page Proposals===
Where the HECK is the [[Virtual Boy]] in all of this? Nintendo's ''actual'' third portable console and part of the fourth generation (or fifth? It was supposed to keep customers occupied while waiting for the Nintendo 64), as it was released in 1995? {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:43, November 29, 2024 (EST)
*Merge [[Wooden Trapdoor]] and [[Steel Trapdoor]] into {{fakelink|Trapdoor (Wario World)}} ([[Talk:Wooden Trapdoor#Merge Wooden Trapdoor with Steel Trapdoor into Trapdoor (Wario World)|Discuss]]) '''Deadline''': 8 January, 2011 23:59 GMT
*Decide if the [[Toad Brigade]] were the Toads appearing in ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'' ([[Talk:Toad_Brigade#TPP:_Toad_Brigade_in_SMS_or_not.3F|Discuss]]) '''Deadline''': 17 January, 2011 23:59 GMT
*Merge [[Super Mario All-Stars]] with [[Super Mario All-Stars + Super Mario World]] and [[Super Mario All-Stars - 25th Anniversary Edition]] ([[Talk:Super Mario All-Stars#Merge|Discuss]]) '''Deadline''': 20 January, 2011 23:59 GMT


:I didn't include select consoles in this proposal since my arguments mainly focused on the major [[Nintendo]] consoles. That is not to say consoles like the [[Virtual Boy]] and non-Nintendo consoles like the [[Philips CD-i]] aren't important (they are!), but I wanted to prioritize the issues present with how the video game geration system currently works with the major Nintendo consoles since these alone already present issues with the system without the additions of what was omitted for the purposes of this proposal.


==New Features==
:Regarding [[Triforce]], that is a whole different category of hardware. Arcade hardware for the most part has never worked with this generation system since it was primarly designed with home and portable consoles in mind. How do you even slot in arcade hardware to begin with? Arcade games had a completely different evolution to their console counterparts and were usually cutting edge at the time before any console equivalents made it to market, and even if they did unlike consoles, arcade hardware differs depending on the game. How can you be sure what a certain arcade game is running on is in a certain generation? --[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 18:04, November 29, 2024 (EST)
''None at the moment.''
::I feel like this is a very picking-and-choosing type of situation. How in the heck is the Virtual Boy, something that gets ''equal amounts of merch as every other Nintendo console (Wii, Nintendo 64, Game Boy, NES, GameCube, etc) in the [[Nintendo Museum]] gift shop'' (meaning that Nintendo views this thing equally important as the other consoles), NOT a major console, but the Color TV-Game, a plug-and-play type of console that did NOT get ''any merch'' in the aforementioned Nintendo Museum gift shop, IS? This type of consideration also makes the Virtual Boy the ONLY non-major Nintendo console that isn't an upgrade or add-on of another previous console (e.g. Nintendo DSi, Famicom Disk System, Nintendo Switch OLED Model), and at that point, why make such a distinction at all? Wouldn't it be better to include the Virtual Boy among the other major consoles?<br>I also don't quite understand why you're mentioning the Philips CD-i or Triforce to my reply, when I didn't mention those at all. Unlike the Virtual Boy, I actually do get excluding ''those'': the CD-i is not a Nintendo console at all, it's only relevant due to the licensed Nintendo games on them. That's like saying the Nintendo Switch is a Sony system because a handful of Playstation Studio-made games were released on the thing as well. As for Triforce, that and all other arcade hardware is a whole other can of worms that neither of us would like to get into. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:23, December 3, 2024 (EST)
:::I was replying to both your comment and the one Salmancer made, I apologize that was not clear. To reiterate, the consoles I mentioned in the initial proposal were chosen to showcase the flaws with the video game console generation system. My intention was not to list out nearly every piece of Nintendo video game hardware that would have to be accounted for within this system as that was not the goal of this proposal. I feel the flaws with the video game console generation system and the confusion it has led should be more than enough reason to remove it from the wiki. If this were to be put into practice the questions you're currently asking would be all but redundant with the absence of this generation system entirely. --[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 12:09, December 3, 2024 (EST)
::::I still feel like you should include the Virtual Boy among the portable consoles you've listed, the way you've proposed your idea (which you are currently ''not'' doing). As I just stared before, Nintendo views the Virtual Boy on an (at least somewhat) equal level as their other major consoles historically speaking, and was basically meant to be a "third pillar" to the Game Boy and Nintendo 64 in the same way the Nintendo DS was meant as a "third pillar" to the GameCube and GBA (the obvious difference being that the Virtual Boy flopped hard while the DS became a commercial success). It's still a part of Nintendo's (portable) console history, so skipping the Virtual Boy feels disingenuous regardless of its failure.<br>Also, by counting the Virtual Boy as a portable console, it would also make the Nintendo Switch the eighth portable console, which also makes it way more convenient as a hybrid console, since it's also the eighth home console. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:07, December 3, 2024 (EST)


==Removals==
@Doc von Schmeltwick: I don't really see how that's an argument against this proposal. We have the release dates listed for the consoles, and the Game Boy Color article's very first sentence describes it as "the handheld counterpart of the Nintendo 64". Why is it also necessary to call them "fifth generation"? I'd argue that it's probably the least clear way of showing the connection, because I can't imagine "fifth generation" means anything to someone who doesn't know about when those consoles released. Not to mention that being in the same "generation" doesn't necessarily mean they were being sold at the same time, as the Wii U and Switch demonstrate. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:30, November 29, 2024 (EST)
''None at the moment''


==Changes==
@Ahemtoday: Please read above the comment I made in regards to the absence of [[Virtual Boy]]. Keep and mind that I was presenting it as one possible solution if video game console generations were removed. That is not to say it should be the solution used hence why I provided another alternative one. If the first system was implemented into the wiki than I would imagine [[Virtual Boy]] being included. --[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 18:25, November 29, 2024 (EST)


===Bowser's Castle Article Name===
Do we really discuss console generations extensively on the wiki? I do not know of any examples offhand. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:40, November 29, 2024 (EST)
Since, in ''[[Mario Kart (series)|Mario Kart'' series]], they're all called "Bowser's Castle" and not "Bowser Castle". I think we should change the name of the article from [[Bowser Castle]], to [[Bowser's Castle (course)]]. I've not been on Mario Wiki long, but I know a lot of stuff about games, I just don't know how to make major changes like this. If this ''is'' voted for, I ask that someone tell me how to do it, or that someone else do it. Thank you.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Britannic124}}<br>
:The [[Family Computer]] and [[Nintendo Entertainment System]] articles are obvious examples but there's [[Mario%27s_Puzzle_Party#Trivia|this article's trivia section]] as an example of non-console articles.--[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 00:08, November 30, 2024 (EST)
'''Voting start''': January 2, 2011 00:00<br>
'''Deadline''': January 9, 2011 00:00


====Support====
<blockquote>"''There is one obvious problem that you might have noticed. The Nintendo Switch is in the eighth and ninth generation. This is due to when the Nintendo Switch first released: March 3, 2017. The current system begins the ninth generation in November 2020 with the release of the Xbox Series X/S and PlayStation 5 consoles. This is despite how for most of the lifespan of the Nintendo Switch, it has actually been competing against consoles that under this system is a whole generation ahead.''"</blockquote>
#{{User|Britannic124}} &mdash; Why give a page a different name than the subject, itself? A lot of other courses have the parenthesis after its title, rather than a different name. I hope you also support me on this.
#{{User|UltimatePetey}} I have to agree with Brittanic124. There are 2 courses that say Bowser's Castle, and one that is Bowser Castle 3. That's more than half of them that say Bowser's. It even has a disambiguation on both pages.
#{{User|SWFlash}} Per… uhm… proposal maybe?
#{{User|Ultramariologan}} Per Britannic124, UltimatePetey and SWFlash.
#{{User|MarioManiac}} Per all. As my mom says, you have to spell and pronounce it correctly, so other people can understand you.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per Coincollector and myself in the comments: the courses have been called both "Bowser Castle" and "Bowser's Castle", but the latter is the most recently-used term, and so we should go with that.
#{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} The "courses" label makes everything much clearer. Bowser Castle and Bowser's Castle sound too similar. The label shows that there is a difference between the two, which means that people can find what they are looking for without memorizing if the castle of Bowser is the course or the castle itself.
#{{User|KernCore}} I'm with you about this one.
#{{User|MarioMissle504}} Per all.


====Oppose====
But then I have to question: what about the {{wp|SG-1000}} and the {{wp|Master System|Mark III/Master System}} releasing just shy of a few years? I know it has a very time span compared to the Wii U and Switch, but if they are bundled under the third-generation, the Switch should also be this way for the eighth, right? {{User:PanchamBro/sig}} 01:00, November 30, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Zero777}} I am Zero! It will be too confusing to the visitor to have them in separate articles. I think just making that slight edit on their section is all we can do. Zero signing out.
:There have been countless debates regarding the {{wp|SG-1000}} in particular due to it sharing nearly the exact same hardware as the {{wp|ColecoVision}} yet both consoles are in different generations despite being released within one year apart. However this side of the console generations debate is not relevant to the scope of this wiki.--[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 01:20, November 30, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} I am not Zero, but I am still opposing. Per Zero. It is fine as it is. It can be known under two names, and one is already the name of a very different article. If I remember correctly, it uses that name in most of the games, so it would be better as the name of the majority.
:The wiki actually does currently consider the Switch to be "eighth generation", as seen in the infobox on its page. Which is a bit confusing since it puts it in the same generation as the Wii U even though the only thing making them less separate is the release timing of other consoles not covered by this wiki. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:42, November 30, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Rise Up Above It}} No no no! Per me & Coincollector. Bowser Castle is the main article for all the ''Mario Kart'' racecourses, whereas Bowser's Castle is the main article for the ''actual'' castles location/level-wise. A similar idea to this has already been resolved, just follow the link in my comment.
::I personally feel that is more than enough reason to remove video game console generations from this wiki. We already have "Predecessor" and "Successor" as a more straight forward tool. --[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 23:33, November 30, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Smasher 101}} Per all.
:::I agree. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:43, December 1, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Yoshigalaxy2}} Well in [[Mario Kart DS]], the Bowser Castle Course is Called "Bowser Castle". It wouldn't make sense to have all the courses on the page be listed under the title Bowser's Castle, if one course is called Bowser Castle!
#{{User|The Cosmic Vin}}The page got deleted FOUR times.


====Comments====
I'm only here to say that I vehemently reject the Wikipedia consensus on Switch being 8th gen console. Sure, it competed with 8th gen Playstation 4 and Xbox One, but Nintendo officially regards Switch separate from Wii U. What about Sega Genesis or Turbografx, are they 3rd gen because they were released to one-up NES? Or is Playstation 1 4th gen because of its origins as a SNES add-on? Hell, since [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/hardware/index.html Nintendo considers Game Boy Color to be just another Game Boy iteration], shouldn't that really be a 4th gen handheld that happened to be released during 5th-6th gens and trounced its competition? I don't care which way this wiki goes with this proposal, but the Switch placement is one that irks me because 3DS and Wii U already cover Nintendo's 8th gen hardware lineup. Thus Switch should be the start of 9th gen and no amount of "because Wikipedia says so" is going to convince me otherwise. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 03:12, December 1, 2024 (EST)
Voting start...January 5th?! It's supposed to be around 24 hours after you first make it, not...3 extra days. {{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} <br>
:The main reason I started this proposal to begin with was to showcase the flaws in the system which include things you've mentioned here. The video game console generation system that is currently being used has its roots as something made up by Wikipedia editors and to this day they influence what consoles are in what generation. Even if you don't use Wikipedia you've felt this influence everywhere in the video games space which does include this wiki. Therefore, removing video game console generations would be beneficial to this wiki as it would allow the contributors to this wiki be able to decide for themselves how to handle describing video game consoles. I provided two possible solutions if this proposal passes but that is not to say they are the only solutions, but removing video game console generations is the first step towards better alternatives in the long run. --[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 04:57, December 1, 2024 (EST)
I was just leaving space for the voting on the proposal below! {{User|Britannic124}}
:That's kind of not how it works. The rules state it has to be, so I will alter the voting start. People have enough time to vote on each. {{User|MrConcreteDonkey}}


I dunno, I've seen that the racecourses appear under the name '''Bowser Castle''' (like in Mario Kart DS) and others '''Bowser's Castle''' (like in MK Double Dash). I suggest you to use the latest name used for the course in a similar way that was done for the [[Octoomba]]'s article. {{user|coincollector}}
@SeanWheeler: I don't understand why you're opposing if you admit that console generations aren't useful to us. The Switch issue could be settled much more easily by removing console generations. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:35, December 3, 2024 (EST)
:I'm confused as well. To reiterate a previous comment of mine, there is [[Mario%27s_Puzzle_Party#Trivia|this article's trivia section]] that uses it (''"...that design's only two appearances in any game originally for a '''seventh-generation''' or later console."''). Regarding other examples, there is [[Donkey_Kong_(franchise)#Merchandising|a merchandising section in the Donkey Kong (franchise) article]] (''"During the '''seventh generation''' of video games, there were two arcade Donkey Kong titles released in Japan..."'') and the [[WarioWare_(series)|development section in the WarioWare (series) article]] (''"...every Nintendo system from the '''sixth generation''' onwards has had at least one entry of the series released for it..."''). I feel that is more than enough examples to show that the use of the video game console generation system is used well outside of the console articles. --[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 03:52, December 3, 2024 (EST)
::I'm concerned that Sean doesn't read proposals before voting. This is not the first time either. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 04:07, December 3, 2024 (EST)


Hey zero, did you see the article itself? There's [[Bowser Castle]] and [[Bowser's Castle]] (and no redirects!). That's why I'm supporting it. {{User|SWFlash}}
We feel like if the point of this proposal was to bring up issues with Wikipedia's own console generation metrics, then it would probably be... well, we don't know if it'd be more productive per say, we have some '''''takes''''' about how Wikipedia is managed and a very cynical part of us imagines there's a non-zero chance that they'd shrug it off, but it would definitely be more ''apt'' to hold that conversation at the source, rather than here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:30, December 3, 2024 (EST)
:Fools. Take a look at the bottom of [[Talk:Bowser's Castle]]. It should clear this up. {{User|Rise Up Above It}}
:Then why does this wiki use this generation system? --[[User:Bro3256|Bro3256]] ([[User talk:Bro3256|talk]]) 13:44, December 3, 2024 (EST)
::Okay, I'm crazy. I thought you were going to merge them. x_X But still, per Coincollector. {{User|Rise Up Above It}}
::It's what other people use, and while it has issues (namely, the fact Nintendo has gotten themselves out of sync with it and there has been zero effort to try and address that), none of them are particular deal-breakers. It's also capable of handling weird edge-cases, which is a genuine boon for it. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 16:28, December 3, 2024 (EST)
:::Calling people "fools" is rude: drop the attitude, please. The discussion you linked to doesn't clear anything up; the only bit applicable here is what MG1 said about proper names/nouns, but that logic is actually faulty seeing as "Bowser's Castle" is now used to refer to the tracks as well as the general castles that belong to Bowser. The entire thing feels like speculation to me: I doubt Nintendo ever meant for the names to be that subject-specific, especially since they've started using the same term for both uses of the castle. We're not supposed to make conclusions: we're supposed to name articles based on what the most recent game calls the subject in question (which is what Coincollector was talking about); in this case, the course set in the Koopa King's castle was called "''Bowser's Castle''" in the most recent game, ''Mario Kart Wii'' (I just played it myself to make sure of that). - {{User|Walkazo}}
:::This feels like a good time to raise the tried and true argument that we don't do things just because other wikis do them. I'm also a bit puzzled what you mean by "it's capable of handling weird edge-cases", which you state right after discussing its inability to handle the Switch's weird edge case. If by "weird edge cases" you mean stuff like the CD-i, I'm not sure why this wiki needs to "handle" them with a system like this in the first place. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:10, December 3, 2024 (EST)
::::Yeah, I kinda noticed that. x_X Sorry about the attitude, though. {{User|Rise Up Above It}}
::::The Switch is mostly a stumbling block because it's "technically" a part of the eighth generation due to how Wikipedia handles things, which. Is mostly a byproduct of Wikipedia themselves. Sure, we could do things our own way and call it part of the ninth generation anyways, but in ''this specific case'', we feel like that would do more harm than good; inherently, the console generation metric is based entirely on what other people say it is, and again, while it's not perfect, it's decent ''enough'' for our purposes, and it would only be worth fixing if, for whatever reason, Wikipedia decided it should change too.<br>As for the latter, well, what, are we supposed to just not count the Virtual Boy or CD-i as part of Nintendo's console lineups? If the proposal passes in its current state, neither of those consoles will fall into ''any'' "predecessor" or "successor" order. In contrast, the console generation system does properly show that the CD-i released in the same era as SNES, but before the Nintendo 64, without us having to interject it in some list of succession. And the less said about how the Virtual Boy would fit into this equation, the better--it's kind of a hybrid console, but also kind of a home console... We're sorry, but we struggle to see how a line of succession is any "better" than just listing the console generation system in this case. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 22:38, December 3, 2024 (EST)
:::::"Let's copy how Wikipedia does it as much as possible" strikes me as a very strange thing to argue. Nothing forces us to copy Wikipedia, and the significantly easier and better way to solve the generation system's problems is to remove it.<br>I admit that the way the proposal is currently written is odd and unnecessarily confusing: it suggests the numbered "line of succession" thing that some opposers are hung up about, but then suggests a better solution that seems to be the one that would actually be used, and lumps them both into the same support option. As I said in my vote, I am specifically supporting the second solution, which is to just say what consoles came before and after the one being discussed and leave it at that. (Also, yes we should exclude the CD-i from Nintendo's console lineups, it's not a Nintendo console.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:19, December 4, 2024 (EST)


*I have been questioning about this myself.  We could always make a disambiguation page for Bowser's Castle, and have an article for the place, the race track, and the Baseball stadium. &ndash; {{User|M&SG}}
==Changes==
::We already have [[Bowser's Castle (disambiguation)]]; since the place is almost always what people will be searching for or linking to, it gets the main namespace. - {{User|Walkazo}}
===Decide what to do with {{tem|ref needed}} and {{tem|unreferenced}}===
Let me tell you what: the {{tem|ref needed}} and {{tem|unreferenced}} templates read too similar to the <nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:Citation needed|citation needed}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:Unreferenced|unreferenced}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki>/<nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:More citations needed|more citations needed}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki>/<nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:Unreferenced section|unreferenced section}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki>/<nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:More citations needed section|more citations needed section}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki> templates from Wikipedia, respectively. I just wonder if those are errors. I humbly ask if there's a possibility to decide what to do with the templates using three options:


The name Bowser’s Castle is only used in 3 Mario Kart games. The other 3 games use the name Bowser Castle. I made a little list to clear things up.
;Option 1: Move {{tem|ref needed}} and {{tem|unreferenced}} to {{tem|citation needed}} and {{tem|ref needed}} and ONLY make <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> more specific.
*[[Super Mario Kart]] - Bowser Castle (1, 2 & 3)
;Option 2: ONLY move <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> to <nowiki>{{citation needed}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> respectively.
*[[Mario Kart 64]] - Bowser's Castle
;Option 3: ONLY make <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> more specific.
*[[Mario Kart: Super Circuit]] - Bowser Castle (1, 2, 3 & 4)
;Option 4: ONLY make <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> more specific.
*[[Mario Kart: Double Dash!!]] - Bowser's Castle
;Option 5: ONLY make <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> more specific.
*[[Mario Kart DS]] - Bowser Castle
;Option 6: Do NOTHING.
*[[Mario Kart Wii]] - Bowser's Castle
Every odd numbered Mario Kart game uses the name Bowser Castle, while every even numbered Mario Kart game uses the name Bowser's Castle. If this trend keeps on, it will be called Bowser Castle again in the next Mario Kart game for the 3DS.
{{User|Arend}}


===The TPP Effect===
The <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
Third times the charm I hope, but let's not focus on what proposal number this is that I've made. Lately there has been many talk page proposals by the same user that conflict with each or they conflict with past tpps that have already passed. It is quite confusing on how unorderly and how inconsistent it is starting to become.


What I propose is that we have some changes to the Talk Page Proposal rules shown far above this. I say that if a tpp is being runned that conflicts and disagrees with another tpp that one of them has to change in order for consistency to be played out. Now of course some circumstances should be made about that, depending on what it is and the reasons, but if it is for the same reasoning as another, then that rule should change. But it is hard if it conflicts with other proposals from the past. What I say we should do about it is to have that ttp turn into a proposal that will go into misc and deal with all that it effects. Then, depending on whether the proposal passes or fails, shall the pages be changed depending on the outcome.
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<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
This {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} '''{{#if:{{{more|}}}|needs additional citations for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]|does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]}}'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}<br><small>Please help {{plain link|1=[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}} improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}]}} by [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|adding citations from reliable sources]].</small>
</div>
</pre>


I believe that all I have said above is very logical, and will solve many issues that we have had here on the MarioWiki with the tpp's going on lately. If you don't quite fully understand my proposal, comment in the comments section.
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
This article '''does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.<br><small>Please help {{plain link|1=[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}} improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}]}} by [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|adding citations from reliable sources]].</small>
</div>
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'''Proposer''': {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}<br>
However, if this proposal passes with option 1 being the most voted, guess what? in addition to the <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> template being moved to <nowiki>{{citation needed}}</nowiki>, the <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> template will be moved to <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> and will read more specifically as follows:
'''Voting start''': December 29, 2010 5:16<br>
'''Deadline''': January 4, 2011 23:59


====Support====
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#{{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} - Probably should have done this when I made the proposal, but wanted to see some opinions first. Since this seems to be looking like a good proposal, I support it 100%! Per me!
<pre>
#{{User|SWFlash}} Per guy above
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
#{{User|WigglerWhoopin'Warrior135}} Per all.
This {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} '''{{#if:{{{more|}}}|needs at least one more citation for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]|does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]}}'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}<br><small>If you would like to help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve the {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}, please [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|add citations from reliable sources]] to it.</small>
#{{User|UltraMario3000}} Per Proposal.
</div>
#{{User|The Cosmic Vin}} Per all.
</pre>


====Oppose====
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
#{{User|Edofenrir}} - I'm sorry, but this is '''way too vague''' to be incorporated in our policies. Maybe if you flesh it out and formulate it into clear, precise paragraphs, we can think about adding something like that. But in this form: Just no.
This article '''does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.<br><small>If you would like to help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}, please [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|add citations from reliable sources]] to it.</small>
#{{User|Fawfulfury65}} Per Edofenrir. I think it would turn out as a confusing policy.
</div>
#{{user|Tucayo}} - I like the ''idea'', but I have to agree with Edo, this is vague.
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#{{User|Emperor Yoshi}} Well, I agree with all that oppose this, it's main ''idea'' is good, but BMB, you need to make your description less vague. I can personally not see the specifics to this idea, thus, I simply have to oppose this for the time being.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per Edofenrir: I don't see how we could possibly turn this proposal into some clear, concise rules. Besides, we already aim for consistency and if things really do get out of whack, Rule 13 gives the admins the means to set things straight. The problem is that a lot of the time, comparing TPPs is like comparing apples and oranges, and the whole thing is rather subjective: what's inconsistent for one person might be perfectly fine for another. No rule or policy will ever change that, and trying to shoehorn the TPPs into a strict guideline could actually backfire and make it much more difficult to run and regulate them; having wiggle-room is very useful sometimes.
#{{User|UltimatePetey}} - Per Fawfulfury65. It could get confusing.
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all, mostly Walkazo and Emperor Yoshi. I don't understand what you want to change, or do differently.
#{{User|Zero777}} I am Zero! Per Edo, way too vague. Zero signing out.
#{{User|Cosmic Red Toad}} - i '''would''' support...if i knew what ur talking about here. sorry.
#{{User|Cosmic Blue Toad}} - Per Edofenrir, Emperor Yoshi, Tucayo, and Fawfulfury65.
#{{User|Ultramariologan}} Per Edofenrir. Way too much vague.
#{{User|MarioManiac}} Per all.
#{{User|Smasher 101}} Per all.It's too vague.
#{{User|MarioMissle504}} Look out: YOU MIGHT BE DOING WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO PREVENT.


====Comments====
Also, if the proposal passes with either option 3 or option 5 being the most voted, we'll use this from above.
I like your idea, we do need that. Consistency above all. {{user|Tucayo}}


Can you clarify what you're saying please? {{User|Bowser's luma}}
For example, placing the <code>more=yes</code>, <code>section=yes</code>, and <code>reason=Information on its release needs to be corroborated with external sources.</code> will have the <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> more specifically read as follows:


:@Bowser's luma: Pretty much I am just solidifing the rules since a lot of agruements and conflicts have been going off in some TPP's. I am just saying to add/change a rule or two in the TPPs so that we can have consistency and to have a more understanding structure. That is about it. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}
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::Ok. Consistency is good. {{User|Bowser's luma}}
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
:::This seems a little vague, could you be a little more in-depth? {{User|Ralphfan}}
This section '''needs at least one more citation for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. '''Specific(s):''' Information on its release needs to be corroborated with external sources.<br><small>If you would like to help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this section}}, please [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|add citations from reliable sources]] to it.</small>
::::Let's see if I can make it fit your idea of "clear". Hmmm...Pretty much if this proposal passes, we will be adding some more rules to TPP's. If a TPP conflicts with another (let's say one is to merge Goomba and Paragoomba, but another at the same time that has Goomba be split to Goomba (species) and Goomba (character)) then one of them has to be deleted or changed so that it doesn't happen like that. But if they interfere with each other, and one is running and another is passing (Example, split M&L series mushrooms apart, and a proposal that passed a few months ago merged them to the Mushroom article), then the current one either has to change the proposal, delete it, or bring it on this page as a main proposal and if passes, then the TPP would say something like "this TPP has changed via {{fakelink|this proposal}}". Its to help put consistency into the TPP's as we have struggled ever since they have been made with what is right and wrong and if this or that conflicts with that or this. {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}
</div>
Agree! But that is not consistency, that is preventing conflict. {{User|Marioguy1}}
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WAIT! This proposal has already been passed! See the "How to" section above, it has this rule:
Likewise, the <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> template reads as follows:
8. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
So that means that the proposal made second would have to be deleted to follow this rule so this proposal is unnecessary. {{User|Marioguy1}}
:Not exactly, it is actually to expand that rule. Because the rule refers to proposals dealing with the same subject, while this proposal talks about proposals that deal with similar circumstances. {{user|Tucayo}}
::Well if the circumstances are conflicting, such as in the case of his Goomba/Paragoomba example, one of them would be deleted so either his proposal is unnecessary or his example is faulty. {{User|Marioguy1}}


===New Time Trial Article===
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I noticed that if you search "Time Trial" right now, you are brought to a redirect that takes you to a small section of the [[Mario Kart (series)]] article. I think this mode should be given its own article.
<pre>
<sup class="noprint" style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">&#91;[[MarioWiki:Citations|''citation needed'']]&#93;</sup><includeonly>{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Articles with unsourced statements]]}}</includeonly><noinclude>[[Category:Superscript templates]]</noinclude>
</pre>


The biggest reason I think this is because there are full articles existing about similar modes, such as [[Diddy's Dash]] and [[Time Attack (Donkey Kong)]]. It makes no sense for these to have their own articles and not Time Trial. Additionally, if a Time Trial article is made, it should have the similar Time Trail modes that I mentioned merged into it since they are near identical. The article could be used to list times that need to be completed in some Time Trials, since some games give you certain times to beat. It can also describe how the Time Trial mode can be unlocked (I know a few games don't let you play the mode right away), how it can be unlocked, and a little about how it may work.
<sup class="noprint" style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">&#91;[[MarioWiki:Citations|''citation needed'']]&#93;</sup>
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Well, those are all the reasons I can think of.
However, if this proposal passes with either option 3 or option 4 being the most voted, the <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:


'''Proposer''': {{User|Fawfulfury65}}<br>
----
'''Voting start''': 3 January, 2011, 1:47<br>
<pre>
'''Deadline''': 9 January, 2011, 23:59
<sup class="noprint" style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">&#91;[[MarioWiki:Citations|''reference needed'']]&#93;</sup><includeonly>{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Articles with unsourced statements]]}}</includeonly><noinclude>[[Category:Superscript templates]]</noinclude>
</pre>


====Support====
<sup class="noprint" style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">&#91;[[MarioWiki:Citations|''reference needed'']]&#93;</sup>
#{{User|Beecanoe}} This seems like a good idea.  Time Trials mode is a major part of the Mario Kart series and deserves its own article (unless Grand Prix, VS, and Battle don't have articles.
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====Oppose====
Likewise, if this proposal passes with option 2 being the most voted, we'll only move the <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> templates to <nowiki>{{citation needed}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{ref needed}}</nowiki>, respectively.
#{{User|Knife}} &ndash; If anything, those other articles need to be merged to their respective games, not the other way around. Modes shouldn't get separate articles as they detract from the game articles. Will we put a {{Tem|Main}} template on each respective section in the game articles? Not to mention that this proposal is inconsistent. What makes the Time Trial modes more deserving of an article than other modes like [[Mario Kart (series)#Grand Prix|Grand Prix]], [[Mario Kart (series)#Battle_Mode|Battle Mode]], [[Mario Kart: Double Dash!!#Versus|Versus]], [[Mario Kart DS#Missions|Mission Mode]], etc.?
#{{user|Coincollector}} -Per Knife. Game modes should make up the game's article in question.
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all. Now I can see the cons of this, and they overpower the pros, to be honest.
#{{User|Edofenrir}} - I agree with Knife.
#{{User|M&SG}} - Making a Time Trials article is pointless if you asked me.  Refer to Knife's statement.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per Knife.
#{{User|Zero777}} I am Zero! Per all. Zero signing out.
#{{User|SWFlash}} Per Knife, Coincollector, MrConctreteDonkey and M&SG.
#{{User|Fawfulfury65}} You guys are right. Per all.
#{{User|Smasher 101}} Per all.
#{{User|MarioManiac}} Per all.
#{{User|MarioMissle504}} Per all.


====Comments====
Which option do you wish to choose?
We could also list the staff ghosts in [[Mario Kart Wii]] into the Time Trial page. {{User|The Cosmic Vin}}
:Yeah, that's what I want in them along with the times for some of those Donkey Kong Time Attacks and stuff. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
::You opposed your own proposal! Does it mean that you'll delete it? {{User|SWFlash}}
:::No, anyone who still agrees with what I wrote before can support. But I changed my mind. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}


==Miscellaneous==
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Option 1====
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} First choice


====Option 2====


===Change <nowiki>{{Racecourses}}</nowiki> to <nowiki>{{Courses}}</nowiki>===
====Option 3====
First proposal, I'm sorry if it's n00by.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Second choice
So recently, I found out that the template that has all the courses in the [[Mario Kart (series)|Mario Kart Series]] is <nowiki>{{Racecourses}}</nowiki>. I think it is a ''little'' childish to put in the '''Race''' in '''Race'''courses. I can understand if you disagree, but <nowiki>{{Courses}}</nowiki> sounds better. Once again, sorry if it's n00by.


'''Proposer''':{{User|The Cosmic Vin}}<br>
====Option 4====
'''Voting Start''': December 30 2010 22:56<br>
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Third choice
'''Deadline''': January 5, 2010 17:56<br>


====Support====
====Option 5====
#{{User|The Cosmic Vin}}
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Fourth choice


====Oppose====
====Option 6====
#{{User|Nicke8}} There are 2 types of courses,race courses, and battle courses.
#{{User|Hewer}} What is the point of this? Switching around the names of those templates is unnecessary at best and confusing at worst, and I don't see how the slightly changed wording of the unreferenced template makes it in any way "more specific". This just feels like changing things for the sake of changing things.
#{{User|SWFlash}} Per BLOF.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Seems like an unnecessary change, and moving one template to the old name of an unrelated template is just asking to make an even bigger mess of old revisions. When you make proposals, you really should explain why the status quo is a problem and how your proposed solution will fix it.
#{{User|Yoshi's Island}} Per Nicke8.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Canama}} Per Nicke8.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per all (including BLOF and what I said about semantics in the comments).
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Moved templates always give me headaches trying to figure out where the heck they went when I'm previewing edits.
#{{User|Zero777}} I am Zero! Per Nicke8 and BLOF. Zero signing out.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Ultramariologan}} Per Nicke8 and BLOF.
#{{User|Axii}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Mariowikilover25}} Per Nicke8
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all; this feels like it'd be ''even more confusing'' than what we're already doing for next to no benefit.
#{{User|Smasher 101}} Per Nicke8 and BLOF.
#{{User|MarioMissle504}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
I disagree with you. I think the prefix adjective, "race" specifies "course". There are many types of courses out there, such as an obstacle course or battle course (it could even mean a school course), so changing it to "course" would be simply too vague. I don't understand what makes putting in the word "race" makes things childish. It describes the places perfectly, since you definitely (most of the time) are racing in there. {{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}}
{{@|Hewer|Waluigi Time|Nintendo101|Technetium|Doc von Schmeltwick|OmegaRuby|Axii}} What's a better way to do than options 1 or 2? {{User:GuntherBayBeee/sig}} 13:37, December 3, 2024 (EST)
:I agree. Also, {{tem|Racecourses}} would have to be switched to the new template name on over 60 pages, which seems like a lot of work for mere semantics. - {{User|Walkazo}}
:I guess I do not understand why anything needs to change at all, and I am reluctant to change templates that see widespread use across our userbase and articles without good reason. What is wrong with the way they are currently set up? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:43, December 3, 2024 (EST)
::Well if he agrees to do it all himself...{{User|Marioguy1}}
::The <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki> template from the Super Mario Wiki reads too similar to the <nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:Unreferenced|unreferenced}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki>/<nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:More citations needed|more citations needed}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki>/<nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:Unreferenced section|unreferenced section}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki>/<nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{wp|Template:More citations needed section|more citations needed section}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki> templates from Wikipedia. The last time I improved this proposal, I think a better way that I would choose option 4, one of my four options. {{unsigned|GuntherBayBeee}}
:::I was planning on it. I was also thinking we could put EVERY courseof every kind into one template. {{User|The Cosmic Vin}}
:::I hear you. They are "too similar" to the templates from Wikipedia. But is that a materially bad thing? What are the consequences to having these templates be similar to the ones from Wikipedia? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:32, December 3, 2024 (EST)
::::Having both types of courses in one navigation template might work, but they're too different to share one style of infobox, so while {{tem|racecourses}} and {{tem|battlecourses}} would be merged, you'd still have {{tem|racecourse}} on the articles. The infobox doesn't actually say "racecourse" outside of the coding, but neither does the navigation template: it says "Race Courses", like how the other one says "Battle Courses", and even if you merged them, they'd still have to us those terms to differentiate between the two types of courses within the template. The term is not childish or superfluous, it's functional. - {{User|Walkazo}}
 
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 05:19, December 4, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Wednesday, December 4th, 10:47 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  2. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  3. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  8. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  14. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  15. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  16. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  17. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  18. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  19. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  20. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 14 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "December 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

  • Move Mysterious Cloud to either Hat cloud or Cap cloud (discuss) Deadline: December 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Split and trim the Vine article (discuss) Deadline: December 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Move Bomb (species) to Bomb (Final Fantasy) (discuss) Deadline: December 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Split the Yoshi's Island teeter-totter from Seesaw (discuss) Deadline: December 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Move Kolorado's father to Richard or Korvallis (discuss) Deadline: December 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 3, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Create a template to crop images on-the-fly without having to tamper with the base file's dimensions, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 4, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Create articles for "Ashita ni Nattara" and "Banana Tengoku" or list them in List of Donkey Kong Country (television series) songs, Starluxe (ended November 23, 2024)
Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), Technetium (ended November 30, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

Create a template to crop images on-the-fly without having to tamper with the base file's dimensions

Based on the early vote, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on December 4 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

So Wildgoosespeeder (talk) shared this nifty template that TCRF has: tcrf:Template:CSS image crop, which allows images to be displayed in mainspace at a cut-out size from how they are on the image files themselves. This has two utilities: one is shrinking to a relevant entity in group textures such as this oneMedia:M&SatL2012OG Wii audience.png, and the other is to avoid blank space without having to crop the raw graphic parameters - thus allowing best-of-both-worlds for the previous proposal I attempted (and failed), as it satisfies the OCD itch of avoiding bad and/or inconsistent crops on the base files without taking up unnecessary space where the images are actually used. It also removes a lot of unnecessary work actually cropping/uncropping images since you don't have to save them to a machine/web address to upload a new version - you can just put in the parameters you want and go from there.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: December 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT

C-S-Yes

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Goes without saying I think this is a good idea.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Sounds like a reasonable compromise.
  3. Jdtendo (talk) It's better to crop an existing image programmatically than having to upload a cropped version for a specific use case.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Pseudo (talk) Seems useful.
  6. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) Sometimes I just find random things on other Wikis and remember a previously failed proposal. I hope this helps out!
  7. EvieMaybe (talk) per Jdtendo! this seems very useful
  8. Axii (talk) Per proposal.
  9. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  10. Mister Wu (talk) I guess this could lead to less image editing which is definitely a positive.

No new template

Comments on CSS image crop

This appears to be similar to a template I have made in order to crop images to perfectly squared off icons for uses on pages such as Pipe Frame (e.g. displaying Mii Racing Suit icons in the same table as other character icons); however, the version you're presenting seems to include more options. I'm not gonna vote yet, but so far I don't see the harm to have this other template too. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 06:42, November 27, 2024 (EST)

Removals

Remove video game console generations

I would imagine most people who have discussed video games in the past have heard of video game console generations. It is a tool to categorize video game hardware and its place in time. There is just one problem: the current video game console generation system is flawed. If you would like to further read into the specifics as to why I would recommend this Time Extension article by Jack Yarwood. But in short, the phrase "next generation" originates as a term used starting around the 1990s, as video games evolved over the many years, Wikipedia editors would create their own video game console generation system that has for the most part remained unchanged since its introduction in the early 2000s. This generation system would slowly be adopted by other sites, media, and the people who engage with video games.

Within the scope of the major Nintendo video game consoles, this is currently how the video game console generation system is categorized.

First generation: Color TV-Game
Second generation: Game & Watch
Third generation: Family Computer, Nintendo Entertainment System
Fourth generation: Super Famicom, Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy
Fifth generation: Nintendo 64, Game Boy Color
Sixth generation: Nintendo GameCube, Game Boy Advance
Seventh generation: Wii, Nintendo DS
Eighth generation: Wii U, Nintendo 3DS, Nintendo Switch
Ninth generation: Nintendo Switch

There is one obvious problem that you might have noticed. The Nintendo Switch is in the eighth and ninth generation. This is due to when the Nintendo Switch first released: March 3, 2017. The current system begins the ninth generation in November 2020 with the release of the Xbox Series X/S and PlayStation 5 consoles. This is despite how for most of the lifespan of the Nintendo Switch, it has actually been competing against consoles that under this system is a whole generation ahead. Because of this, it is not entirely clear where the Nintendo Switch is in the video game console generation system and the solution is to simply file it in both generations rather than one or the other.

Now the Nintendo Switch is a hybrid console, but what about portable consoles? The current video game console generation system lumps in both home and portable consoles. If the goal of the generation system was to be based on hardware specifications than it ultimately falls flat with consoles such as the 16-bit Super Famicom and Super Nintendo Entertainment System home consoles being in the same generation as the 8-bit Game Boy portable console. For home consoles there is absolutely nothing in the second generation, with the Color TV-Game consoles being in the first and the Family Computer and Nintendo Entertainment System consoles being in the third. Portable consoles have a similar issue with nothing in the third generation, with the Game & Watch line in the second and the Game Boy being in the fourth.

For these reasons, I think it should be considered to remove video game console generations from this wiki. It is ultimately a flawed tool that originates as something made up by various Wikipedia editors that stuck around for far too long without real consideration of its flaws. If video game console generations are removed, we should gravitate towards more factual descriptions that better represent the consoles.

Home consoles: 1. Color TV-Game 2. Family Computer, Nintendo Entertainment System 3. Super Famicom, Super Nintendo Entertainment System 4. Nintendo 64 5. Nintendo GameCube, 6. Wii 7. Wii U 8. Nintendo Switch
Portable consoles: 1. Game & Watch 2. Game Boy 3. Game Boy Color 4. Game Boy Advance 5. Nintendo DS 6. Nintendo 3DS 7. Nintendo Switch

Home console example: "The Nintendo 64 is the fourth Nintendo home console platform."
Portable console example: "The Nintendo DS is the fifth Nintendo portable console platform."
Hybrid console example: "The Nintendo Switch is the seventh portable and eighth home Nintendo console platform."

This alternative system does have flaws with the Switch being in two categories again, however that is due to the Switch being a hybrid between a home and portable console. The reason the console is in two video game generations according to Wikipedia is not as clear. Another much straightforward solution would be to simply list the predecessor and successor of each console.

Example: "The predecessor to the Nintendo 64 is the Super Famicom and Super Nintendo Entertainment System and the successor is the Nintendo GameCube."

This is the most likely solution if video game console generations were removed. It is easy to understand and already implemented to an extent. The work required is simply the removal process with minimal addition.

Proposer: Bro3256 (talk)
Deadline: December 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Technetium (talk) Per proposal.
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) console generations make more sense when comparing against several different consoles. for our use case, they're pretty irrelevant.
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer and EvieMaybe.
  4. Bro3256 (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, specifically the second suggested solution of not numbering consoles at all. Saves the unnecessary confusion.
  6. winstein (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Regardless of contemporary awkwardness, it's still useful comparing the timelines for the ones of the past. I've still seen people not realize the GBC was in circulation around the same time of the N64 based on nothing but their respective bit-count.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) - This feels like a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". While we've always found the "console generations" thing really, really strange (as you can expect from a metric born from Wikipedia itself), we can't deny that it is still useful to a degree, and unlike, say, calling unused content "beta" content, the term "console generation" is still a term that sees active use in gaming circles, even if as of late Nintendo's side of it has gotten a bit desynced. In addition, as was pointed out in the comments, the Philips CD-i is noticeably absent, but in addition to that, so is the Virtual Boy, which is even more directly Nintendo related? Not that we'd particularly like this even if both of these were accounted for, mind...
  3. Ahemtoday (talk) Without the Virtual Boy in here, this numbering scheme just flat-out isn't actually true. As such, I can't support this proposal.
  4. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Perhaps a better idea is to use Cross-generation ({{wp|Eighth generation of video game consoles|eighth}}—{{wp|Ninth generation of video game consoles|ninth}}) on the Nintendo Switch page and use {{wp|[No.] generation of video game consoles|[No.] generation}} on pages on all other systems. As such, I'm opposing this proposal.
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Doc von Schmeltwick and Cam&woodstock.
  6. Nintendo101 (talk) I personally do not invoke console generations when writing about video games - it is not a classification system that has much value to me. I do not think I would support the carte blanche integration of console generations as a large systematic classification system on the wiki. If this proposal was just asking to remove generations from the system infobox, I might be on board. However, console generations are still a widely employed way to separate game media into different eras, and I do not think it is intrinsically harmful to mention them in a paragraph if the editor finds it helpful to relay a specific piece of information. I think users should still have the ability to exercise that freedom.
  7. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
  8. SeanWheeler (talk) Do we have pages about console generations? I can't find any pages about generations. If you can link to any pages about console generations, I'd change my vote to support because pages about console generations on a Nintendo wiki wouldn't be useful. If this proposal is about removing references to the generations in each console page, then I have to oppose. The whole issue about which generation the Switch is from could be settled on the Nintendo Switch talk page.
  9. OmegaRuby (talk) Per all.

Comments

I disagree with the premise, since a tool that is helpful but flawed is still helpful. Moreover, we do cover a couple of devices that do not fit on a Nintendo-exclusive relative timeline, namely the Philips CD-i and the Triforce arcade boards. I guess "contemporary to the _____" works just as well, but there's a level of "semantics over broader public" thing that I'm a little iffy about if that kind of phrasing has to be used. Salmancer (talk) 13:51, November 29, 2024 (EST)


Where the HECK is the Virtual Boy in all of this? Nintendo's actual third portable console and part of the fourth generation (or fifth? It was supposed to keep customers occupied while waiting for the Nintendo 64), as it was released in 1995? ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 15:43, November 29, 2024 (EST)

I didn't include select consoles in this proposal since my arguments mainly focused on the major Nintendo consoles. That is not to say consoles like the Virtual Boy and non-Nintendo consoles like the Philips CD-i aren't important (they are!), but I wanted to prioritize the issues present with how the video game geration system currently works with the major Nintendo consoles since these alone already present issues with the system without the additions of what was omitted for the purposes of this proposal.
Regarding Triforce, that is a whole different category of hardware. Arcade hardware for the most part has never worked with this generation system since it was primarly designed with home and portable consoles in mind. How do you even slot in arcade hardware to begin with? Arcade games had a completely different evolution to their console counterparts and were usually cutting edge at the time before any console equivalents made it to market, and even if they did unlike consoles, arcade hardware differs depending on the game. How can you be sure what a certain arcade game is running on is in a certain generation? --Bro3256 (talk) 18:04, November 29, 2024 (EST)
I feel like this is a very picking-and-choosing type of situation. How in the heck is the Virtual Boy, something that gets equal amounts of merch as every other Nintendo console (Wii, Nintendo 64, Game Boy, NES, GameCube, etc) in the Nintendo Museum gift shop (meaning that Nintendo views this thing equally important as the other consoles), NOT a major console, but the Color TV-Game, a plug-and-play type of console that did NOT get any merch in the aforementioned Nintendo Museum gift shop, IS? This type of consideration also makes the Virtual Boy the ONLY non-major Nintendo console that isn't an upgrade or add-on of another previous console (e.g. Nintendo DSi, Famicom Disk System, Nintendo Switch OLED Model), and at that point, why make such a distinction at all? Wouldn't it be better to include the Virtual Boy among the other major consoles?
I also don't quite understand why you're mentioning the Philips CD-i or Triforce to my reply, when I didn't mention those at all. Unlike the Virtual Boy, I actually do get excluding those: the CD-i is not a Nintendo console at all, it's only relevant due to the licensed Nintendo games on them. That's like saying the Nintendo Switch is a Sony system because a handful of Playstation Studio-made games were released on the thing as well. As for Triforce, that and all other arcade hardware is a whole other can of worms that neither of us would like to get into. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 11:23, December 3, 2024 (EST)
I was replying to both your comment and the one Salmancer made, I apologize that was not clear. To reiterate, the consoles I mentioned in the initial proposal were chosen to showcase the flaws with the video game console generation system. My intention was not to list out nearly every piece of Nintendo video game hardware that would have to be accounted for within this system as that was not the goal of this proposal. I feel the flaws with the video game console generation system and the confusion it has led should be more than enough reason to remove it from the wiki. If this were to be put into practice the questions you're currently asking would be all but redundant with the absence of this generation system entirely. --Bro3256 (talk) 12:09, December 3, 2024 (EST)
I still feel like you should include the Virtual Boy among the portable consoles you've listed, the way you've proposed your idea (which you are currently not doing). As I just stared before, Nintendo views the Virtual Boy on an (at least somewhat) equal level as their other major consoles historically speaking, and was basically meant to be a "third pillar" to the Game Boy and Nintendo 64 in the same way the Nintendo DS was meant as a "third pillar" to the GameCube and GBA (the obvious difference being that the Virtual Boy flopped hard while the DS became a commercial success). It's still a part of Nintendo's (portable) console history, so skipping the Virtual Boy feels disingenuous regardless of its failure.
Also, by counting the Virtual Boy as a portable console, it would also make the Nintendo Switch the eighth portable console, which also makes it way more convenient as a hybrid console, since it's also the eighth home console. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 13:07, December 3, 2024 (EST)

@Doc von Schmeltwick: I don't really see how that's an argument against this proposal. We have the release dates listed for the consoles, and the Game Boy Color article's very first sentence describes it as "the handheld counterpart of the Nintendo 64". Why is it also necessary to call them "fifth generation"? I'd argue that it's probably the least clear way of showing the connection, because I can't imagine "fifth generation" means anything to someone who doesn't know about when those consoles released. Not to mention that being in the same "generation" doesn't necessarily mean they were being sold at the same time, as the Wii U and Switch demonstrate. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:30, November 29, 2024 (EST)

@Ahemtoday: Please read above the comment I made in regards to the absence of Virtual Boy. Keep and mind that I was presenting it as one possible solution if video game console generations were removed. That is not to say it should be the solution used hence why I provided another alternative one. If the first system was implemented into the wiki than I would imagine Virtual Boy being included. --Bro3256 (talk) 18:25, November 29, 2024 (EST)

Do we really discuss console generations extensively on the wiki? I do not know of any examples offhand. - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:40, November 29, 2024 (EST)

The Family Computer and Nintendo Entertainment System articles are obvious examples but there's this article's trivia section as an example of non-console articles.--Bro3256 (talk) 00:08, November 30, 2024 (EST)

"There is one obvious problem that you might have noticed. The Nintendo Switch is in the eighth and ninth generation. This is due to when the Nintendo Switch first released: March 3, 2017. The current system begins the ninth generation in November 2020 with the release of the Xbox Series X/S and PlayStation 5 consoles. This is despite how for most of the lifespan of the Nintendo Switch, it has actually been competing against consoles that under this system is a whole generation ahead."

But then I have to question: what about the SG-1000 and the Mark III/Master System releasing just shy of a few years? I know it has a very time span compared to the Wii U and Switch, but if they are bundled under the third-generation, the Switch should also be this way for the eighth, right? -- PanchamBro (talk • contributions) 01:00, November 30, 2024 (EST)

There have been countless debates regarding the SG-1000 in particular due to it sharing nearly the exact same hardware as the ColecoVision yet both consoles are in different generations despite being released within one year apart. However this side of the console generations debate is not relevant to the scope of this wiki.--Bro3256 (talk) 01:20, November 30, 2024 (EST)
The wiki actually does currently consider the Switch to be "eighth generation", as seen in the infobox on its page. Which is a bit confusing since it puts it in the same generation as the Wii U even though the only thing making them less separate is the release timing of other consoles not covered by this wiki. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 07:42, November 30, 2024 (EST)
I personally feel that is more than enough reason to remove video game console generations from this wiki. We already have "Predecessor" and "Successor" as a more straight forward tool. --Bro3256 (talk) 23:33, November 30, 2024 (EST)
I agree. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:43, December 1, 2024 (EST)

I'm only here to say that I vehemently reject the Wikipedia consensus on Switch being 8th gen console. Sure, it competed with 8th gen Playstation 4 and Xbox One, but Nintendo officially regards Switch separate from Wii U. What about Sega Genesis or Turbografx, are they 3rd gen because they were released to one-up NES? Or is Playstation 1 4th gen because of its origins as a SNES add-on? Hell, since Nintendo considers Game Boy Color to be just another Game Boy iteration, shouldn't that really be a 4th gen handheld that happened to be released during 5th-6th gens and trounced its competition? I don't care which way this wiki goes with this proposal, but the Switch placement is one that irks me because 3DS and Wii U already cover Nintendo's 8th gen hardware lineup. Thus Switch should be the start of 9th gen and no amount of "because Wikipedia says so" is going to convince me otherwise. SmokedChili (talk) 03:12, December 1, 2024 (EST)

The main reason I started this proposal to begin with was to showcase the flaws in the system which include things you've mentioned here. The video game console generation system that is currently being used has its roots as something made up by Wikipedia editors and to this day they influence what consoles are in what generation. Even if you don't use Wikipedia you've felt this influence everywhere in the video games space which does include this wiki. Therefore, removing video game console generations would be beneficial to this wiki as it would allow the contributors to this wiki be able to decide for themselves how to handle describing video game consoles. I provided two possible solutions if this proposal passes but that is not to say they are the only solutions, but removing video game console generations is the first step towards better alternatives in the long run. --Bro3256 (talk) 04:57, December 1, 2024 (EST)

@SeanWheeler: I don't understand why you're opposing if you admit that console generations aren't useful to us. The Switch issue could be settled much more easily by removing console generations. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:35, December 3, 2024 (EST)

I'm confused as well. To reiterate a previous comment of mine, there is this article's trivia section that uses it ("...that design's only two appearances in any game originally for a seventh-generation or later console."). Regarding other examples, there is a merchandising section in the Donkey Kong (franchise) article ("During the seventh generation of video games, there were two arcade Donkey Kong titles released in Japan...") and the development section in the WarioWare (series) article ("...every Nintendo system from the sixth generation onwards has had at least one entry of the series released for it..."). I feel that is more than enough examples to show that the use of the video game console generation system is used well outside of the console articles. --Bro3256 (talk) 03:52, December 3, 2024 (EST)
I'm concerned that Sean doesn't read proposals before voting. This is not the first time either. Axii (talk) 04:07, December 3, 2024 (EST)

We feel like if the point of this proposal was to bring up issues with Wikipedia's own console generation metrics, then it would probably be... well, we don't know if it'd be more productive per say, we have some takes about how Wikipedia is managed and a very cynical part of us imagines there's a non-zero chance that they'd shrug it off, but it would definitely be more apt to hold that conversation at the source, rather than here. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:30, December 3, 2024 (EST)

Then why does this wiki use this generation system? --Bro3256 (talk) 13:44, December 3, 2024 (EST)
It's what other people use, and while it has issues (namely, the fact Nintendo has gotten themselves out of sync with it and there has been zero effort to try and address that), none of them are particular deal-breakers. It's also capable of handling weird edge-cases, which is a genuine boon for it. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:28, December 3, 2024 (EST)
This feels like a good time to raise the tried and true argument that we don't do things just because other wikis do them. I'm also a bit puzzled what you mean by "it's capable of handling weird edge-cases", which you state right after discussing its inability to handle the Switch's weird edge case. If by "weird edge cases" you mean stuff like the CD-i, I'm not sure why this wiki needs to "handle" them with a system like this in the first place. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:10, December 3, 2024 (EST)
The Switch is mostly a stumbling block because it's "technically" a part of the eighth generation due to how Wikipedia handles things, which. Is mostly a byproduct of Wikipedia themselves. Sure, we could do things our own way and call it part of the ninth generation anyways, but in this specific case, we feel like that would do more harm than good; inherently, the console generation metric is based entirely on what other people say it is, and again, while it's not perfect, it's decent enough for our purposes, and it would only be worth fixing if, for whatever reason, Wikipedia decided it should change too.
As for the latter, well, what, are we supposed to just not count the Virtual Boy or CD-i as part of Nintendo's console lineups? If the proposal passes in its current state, neither of those consoles will fall into any "predecessor" or "successor" order. In contrast, the console generation system does properly show that the CD-i released in the same era as SNES, but before the Nintendo 64, without us having to interject it in some list of succession. And the less said about how the Virtual Boy would fit into this equation, the better--it's kind of a hybrid console, but also kind of a home console... We're sorry, but we struggle to see how a line of succession is any "better" than just listing the console generation system in this case. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 22:38, December 3, 2024 (EST)
"Let's copy how Wikipedia does it as much as possible" strikes me as a very strange thing to argue. Nothing forces us to copy Wikipedia, and the significantly easier and better way to solve the generation system's problems is to remove it.
I admit that the way the proposal is currently written is odd and unnecessarily confusing: it suggests the numbered "line of succession" thing that some opposers are hung up about, but then suggests a better solution that seems to be the one that would actually be used, and lumps them both into the same support option. As I said in my vote, I am specifically supporting the second solution, which is to just say what consoles came before and after the one being discussed and leave it at that. (Also, yes we should exclude the CD-i from Nintendo's console lineups, it's not a Nintendo console.) Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:19, December 4, 2024 (EST)

Changes

Decide what to do with {{ref needed}} and {{unreferenced}}

Let me tell you what: the {{ref needed}} and {{unreferenced}} templates read too similar to the {{citation needed}} and {{unreferenced}}/{{more citations needed}}/{{unreferenced section}}/{{more citations needed section}} templates from Wikipedia, respectively. I just wonder if those are errors. I humbly ask if there's a possibility to decide what to do with the templates using three options:

Option 1
Move {{ref needed}} and {{unreferenced}} to {{citation needed}} and {{ref needed}} and ONLY make {{unreferenced}} more specific.
Option 2
ONLY move {{ref needed}} and {{unreferenced}} to {{citation needed}} and {{ref needed}} respectively.
Option 3
ONLY make {{ref needed}} and {{unreferenced}} more specific.
Option 4
ONLY make {{ref needed}} more specific.
Option 5
ONLY make {{unreferenced}} more specific.
Option 6
Do NOTHING.

The {{unreferenced}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
This {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} '''{{#if:{{{more|}}}|needs additional citations for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]|does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]}}'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}<br><small>Please help {{plain link|1=[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}} improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}]}} by [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|adding citations from reliable sources]].</small>
</div>

This article does not cite any sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
Please help improve this article by adding citations from reliable sources.

However, if this proposal passes with option 1 being the most voted, guess what? in addition to the {{ref needed}} template being moved to {{citation needed}}, the {{unreferenced}} template will be moved to {{ref needed}} and will read more specifically as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
This {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} '''{{#if:{{{more|}}}|needs at least one more citation for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]|does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]}}'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}<br><small>If you would like to help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve the {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}, please [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|add citations from reliable sources]] to it.</small>
</div>

This article does not cite any sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
If you would like to help improve this article, please add citations from reliable sources to it.

Also, if the proposal passes with either option 3 or option 5 being the most voted, we'll use this from above.

For example, placing the more=yes, section=yes, and reason=Information on its release needs to be corroborated with external sources. will have the {{unreferenced}} more specifically read as follows:

This section needs at least one more citation for verification. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Specific(s): Information on its release needs to be corroborated with external sources.
If you would like to help improve this section, please add citations from reliable sources to it.

Likewise, the {{ref needed}} template reads as follows: 

<sup class="noprint" style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">[[[MarioWiki:Citations|''citation needed'']]]</sup><includeonly>{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Articles with unsourced statements]]}}</includeonly><noinclude>[[Category:Superscript templates]]</noinclude>

[citation needed]

However, if this proposal passes with either option 3 or option 4 being the most voted, the {{ref needed}} template will read as follows: 

<sup class="noprint" style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">[[[MarioWiki:Citations|''reference needed'']]]</sup><includeonly>{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Articles with unsourced statements]]}}</includeonly><noinclude>[[Category:Superscript templates]]</noinclude>

[reference needed]

Likewise, if this proposal passes with option 2 being the most voted, we'll only move the {{ref needed}} and {{unreferenced}} templates to {{citation needed}} and {{ref needed}}, respectively.

Which option do you wish to choose?

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: December 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) First choice

Option 2

Option 3

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Second choice

Option 4

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Third choice

Option 5

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Fourth choice

Option 6

  1. Hewer (talk) What is the point of this? Switching around the names of those templates is unnecessary at best and confusing at worst, and I don't see how the slightly changed wording of the unreferenced template makes it in any way "more specific". This just feels like changing things for the sake of changing things.
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) Seems like an unnecessary change, and moving one template to the old name of an unrelated template is just asking to make an even bigger mess of old revisions. When you make proposals, you really should explain why the status quo is a problem and how your proposed solution will fix it.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
  4. Technetium (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
  5. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Moved templates always give me headaches trying to figure out where the heck they went when I'm previewing edits.
  6. OmegaRuby (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
  7. Axii (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
  8. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all; this feels like it'd be even more confusing than what we're already doing for next to no benefit.

Comments

@Hewer @Waluigi Time @Nintendo101 @Technetium @Doc von Schmeltwick @OmegaRuby @Axii What's a better way to do than options 1 or 2? GuntherBayBeee.jpgGuntherBayBeeeGravity Rush Kat.png 13:37, December 3, 2024 (EST)

I guess I do not understand why anything needs to change at all, and I am reluctant to change templates that see widespread use across our userbase and articles without good reason. What is wrong with the way they are currently set up? - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:43, December 3, 2024 (EST)
The {{unreferenced}} template from the Super Mario Wiki reads too similar to the {{unreferenced}}/{{more citations needed}}/{{unreferenced section}}/{{more citations needed section}} templates from Wikipedia. The last time I improved this proposal, I think a better way that I would choose option 4, one of my four options.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by GuntherBayBeee (talk).
I hear you. They are "too similar" to the templates from Wikipedia. But is that a materially bad thing? What are the consequences to having these templates be similar to the ones from Wikipedia? - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:32, December 3, 2024 (EST)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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