MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
===Revise how long proposals take: "IT'S ABOUT (how much) TIME (they take)"===
===Do not surround song titles with quotes===
Currently, the way our proposals are set up, there are two deadlines. On the main proposals page, they last for 1 week. On talk pages, or for writing guidelines proposals, 2 weeks. Now, this is ''fine.'' We're not going to claim this is like, some total deal-breaker or nothing. However, lately, [[MarioWiki talk:Proposals#Why the inconsistency?|there have been a few concerns raised about this inconsistency]], and we figured, what the hey, why not put it up to vote?
This is a change to [[MarioWiki:Manual_of_Style#Italicizing_titles|this section of our Manual of Style]]. Currently, our policy is to surround song titles with quotation marks whenever they appear. However. We are a Mario wiki, and the Mario series overwhelmingly ''does not'' do this.


A few concerns we've seen, both from others and from us, in no particular order;
The comparison arises to italics, but I feel there's quite a difference between that (an effect applied to text) and the inclusion of punctuation marks, which ''are'' text in and of themselves. Not to mention, unlike italics, which would require special programming to implement, quote marks are supported by anything that supports English text, meaning it's not a question of technical limitations — every game that names its songs is perfectly capable of listing them inside quotation marks, and yet they make the choice not to.
* The largest one to us is just that, unless a proposal is really specific, it's just not worth it to make a talk page proposal over a main page proposal, since it'll end faster. The only thing immune to this are writing guidelines proposals.
* While the proposals themselves are different lengths, the duration before you can make a second proposal on them remains the same. Thusly, if you want to set a policy in stone, you would actually want to make it a writing guidelines/talk page proposal over an ordinary one, as that means it will last for, at least, 6 weeks (4 weeks for the cooldown, and 2 weeks to put it to proposal again.)
* Lastly, talk page proposals just inherently take longer to happen. This can be an issue if their changes are, overall, quite small (like a simple merge/split or rename), or the consensus is reached very quickly; this stings when an ordinary proposal would happen twice as fast with the exact same amount of votes!


Now, there's a few ways you can go about this, but there's one in particular we've taken a liking to: uh, just make all proposals take '''2''' weeks, lmao.
As such, surrounding song titles in quotes is questionable as adherence to an unofficial naming scheme over the original one. Not to mention the effects this can have on lists of song titles — their inclusion on [[Template:DDRMM]] fluffs up the width of the song section by the width of ''several'' song titles.


"BUT CAM & TORI!", we hear you shout, "BUT YOU SAID 2 WEEKS PROPOSALS TAKE TOO LONG??? WHY WOULD YOU CHANGE THEM TO SOMETHING YOU HATE???", and to that we say... No! We actually like the 2 weeks proposals! They have a distinct benefit to them! The problem is that they're juxtaposed with the 1 week proposals. Let's run through those same bullet points.
I'd also like to take the opportunity to mention how inconsistently these quote marks are applied across the wiki already — many entries in [[:Category:Music]] do not use them in their article, none of the lists of songs from the shows or of WarioWare DIY records use them, [[Starring Wario!]] and ''only'' Starring Wario has had its article title changed to have the quotes. I take this to mean the rule is not serving the wiki as it stands.
* If all proposals were 2 weeks, well, there's no real loss to making a talk page proposal over a main proposal page proposal, as they'll all last 2 weeks anyways. (Sure, a proposal can take longer if there's a tie, but that just happens for all proposals anyways.)
* There's also no incentive to make a talk page proposal/writing guideline proposal if you particularly want your porposal to stick around, as again, now ''every'' proposal is guaranteed to last for, at the very least, 6 weeks.
* Now. While it's annoying that all proposals will take 2 weeks, despite the inherent risk of some coming to their consensuses much faster than the deadlines, for one, [[Talk:Alien (Club Nintendo)#ANTI-ALIEN ALARM!!! (Delete this article)|this is also an issue with talk page proposals as-is]]. For two, the extra time can offer extra time for new information to come to light or for particularly close votes to make their cases and form a proper consensus, without needing a tiebreaker. Lastly, if it's really ''that'' big of an issue, we could perhaps create a rule that if a proposal comes to a particularly large consensus a week in, it'll pass early (the finer details would be created as necessary).


There is, of course, the alternative of making all proposals '''1''' week. While we realize this does also resolve a lot of things, it does also necessarily mean that some proposals that would want to happen slower, now don't have that time, and are rushed. Even making only talk page proposals take only 1 week means that Writing Guideline proposals will be at a unique disadvantage for how long they take/an advantage for how long they last if they pass. (And of course, we could just leave everything as they are, but that goes without saying.) That being said, we ''have'' provided options for these, and you're free to make your case for these.
The one exception to everything I've mentioned thus far is ''Paper Mario: The Origami King''{{'}}s music discs: [["Deep, Deep Vibes"]], [["Heartbeat Skipper"]], [["M-A-X Power!"]], and [["Thrills at Night"]]. These are the only time the names of songs are formatted this way (possibly due to the items being CDs ''of'' the songs and not the songs themselves). Therefore, '''these will be the only exception if this proposal passes, and will keep their quote marks'''.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
To circle back around to my original point: I think the nail in the coffin for displaying music this way is [[Nintendo Music]]. This application, specifically meant to play music, does not surround their names with quote marks. And yet [[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music|this article]] surrounds them in quotes anyway, stringently adhering to our unofficial way of formatting these over the way Nintendo Music actually formats them. It's almost ''lying'', frankly.
'''Deadline''': October 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Make all proposals last for 2 weeks====
So, our options:
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} If it's not obvious, this is our primary option; we're a big fan of the idea of global 2 week proposals!. Even with their caveats, in the worst-case scenario, we could make a clause to prevent proposals for lasting too long if they reach their consensus early, or we could simply revert back to the current system. We think the added consistency and preventing of shenanigans is very potent, and it also means that you have to put a bit more thought into your proposal as you make it. Patience fans will be eating ''good'' if this passes.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal and what was said [[MarioWiki talk:Proposals#Why the inconsistency?|here]]. However, I'd also be fine with an option to just shorten writing guidelines proposals to be one week. I don't really understand the third option here, writing guidelines proposals being two weeks felt to me like the worst inconsistency of the bunch. I still don't see what about "writing guidelines" specifically means they inherently need more time than the other categories on this page.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Regular proposals and TPPs are just as visible as one another and should be treated equally, ''especially'' when regular page proposals can be the home of very important decisions (such as this one!) and are just given 1 week. Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} 1 week proposals have always felt a little short to me. I'd rather err on the side of some proposals running a little longer than needed than not having enough discussion time (I don't like banking on a controversial proposal tying). Having to wait an extra week to implement a proposal isn't the end of the world anyway - proposals are rarely, if ever, urgent enough that an extra week with no change would be detrimental to the wiki (and if that were the case, the change should probably come immediately from wiki staff).
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. Giving an extra week to discuss and vote on proposals is a good thing.
#{{User|Drago}} Per Waluigi Time.


====Make all proposals last for 1 week====
* '''Option 1: Exclude quote marks from song titles in all cases.''' Our manual of style will remove the mention of song titles from the section of italicizing titles. Just for clarity, this excludes Origami King's CDs.
* '''Option 2: Keep quote marks when song titles are used in a sentence, but exclude them from standalone appearances of the title.''' Such standalone appearances would include article titles, navboxes, infoboxes, track listings, and table entries. Just for clarity, this option, too, excludes Origami King's CDs.
* '''Option 3: Do nothing.''' I guess this option ''includes'' Origami King's CDs.


====Make all proposals except for writing guidelines proposals last for 1 week====
'''Proposer:''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option. While we like this much less, we do see the merit of making Talk Page Proposals 1 week, and it's not exactly the end-all-be-all. However, we would ''vastly'' prefer 2-week proposals, and keeping Writing Guidelines proposals 2-week is kind of a necessary evil to prevent them from being too rushed for their own good. However, compared to truly ''all'' 1-week proposals, this is better... though, not as good as all 2-week proposals.
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{user|7feetunder}} For me, it's either this or bust. [[Talk:Ankoopa#What_to_do_with_this_article|New information coming to light can still invalidate a proposal's entire premise too late and require a counterproposal even with a 2 week deadline]], so extending the deadline of main page props to 2 weeks won't stop that from happening from time to time. Most proposals that don't reach a consensus in a week will probably require extensions anyway. TPPs being less "visible" than main page proposals was more of an issue back when no quorums were immediate, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/58#Overhaul_the_no_quorum_proposal_rule_.28.238.29|but that's no longer the case]].
#{{User|Axii}} Voting for this just so the first option doesn't win.


====Do nothing====
====Option 1====
#{{User|7feetunder}} If making TPPs last 1 week isn't desirable, I say just keep the status quo. While the current system ''does'' encourage making main page proposals over TPPs when possible if one wants their prop to pass faster, I'm fine with that. A controversial prop is not going to end in a week, and a prop with unanimous or near-unanimous support probably doesn't need that extra time in the oven. I'd be more open to global 2 weekers if a "early consensus = early pass" sub-rule was already in effect, but it isn't, and there's no guarantee that such a rule would be accepted by the community.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} My primary choice. I've firmly laid out my reasons why here.
#{{User|Axii}} The solution isn't solving anything. There was never a problem with inconsistency. Talk page proposals last for two weeks because they're far less visible to people. Mainspace proposals page is frequently visited by many, having proposals last for 2 weeks instead of one doesn't change anything. It doesn't help the community settle on anything, one week is more than enough. Proposals that are tied already get extended automatically, if anything, I would argue writing guidelines proposals should last a week instead. I proposed a different solution on the talk page as well. If a user making a proposal (or an admin) feel like one week wouldn't be enough, they should be able to extend it to two. (I specifically added "or an admin", because most users don't want a proposal to last for two weeks.) Either way, the fact that users often choose mainspace proposals over talk page is perfectly fine as well. It's not about the time in the oven but the visibility of the proposal to the wiki community. Writing guidelines (if they remain at two weeks) could instead be clarified. Right now it is unclear what writing guidelines proposals even are, I think this is the main problem that should be looked at.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} I prefer to think of each music as a work in its own right rather than a part of some "greater whole". ''[[Jump Up, Super Star!]]'' is more than just a piece of ''Super Mario Odyssey''{{'}}s OST. Therefore, song titles should be italicized like any other work and not be in quotation marks as if they were merely chapters.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Secondary choice. The inconsistency isn't that bad and I prefer that to all proposals being shortened.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, and there's [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Italics formatting of boat names, fictional products, and others|precedent]] for following Nintendo's official formatting in spite of usual conventions. The inconsistencies described in the proposal ought to be fixed regardless of the outcome, though.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Second choice.
#{{User|Biggestman}} While I to a degree understand the entire thing with the songs simply being a part of a greater thing, that isn't really fair when I would make an argument some of these songs are a larger part of the series' history than those "greater" things. For example music from Yoshi's Story is still used relatively often to this very day, but Yoshi's Story as a whole is just kinda there. Per all, too.


====Comments====
====Option 2====
Something that occurred to me: The time allowed to edit TPPs was originally 3 like main page proposals, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/48#Double_the_amount_of_time_a_proposer_can_edit_their_talk_page_proposals|eventually doubled to 6 to go with their extended duration]]. If TPPs are shortened to 1 week, would the time allotted to edit them be reverted? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:30, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I will settle for this — part of my ire toward the quotemarks is that I find them highly unsuitable for these particular usages.
:That seems only fair to put them back to 3 days if that option passes--after all, it would be a glaring oversight to retain that and effectively allow for proposals that were en route to pass suddenly being hijacked on the last day, and pivoting from the original purpose, while ''still retaining the vote''. The plan here is to de-jank the proposal time-lengths and make them more consistent--not to introduce ''even more shenanigans''! {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:18, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Secondary option, per my comment below in Option 3.


@7feetunder: Of course there's still a chance for new information to come too late with any proposal length, but longer proposals mean the chance is lower. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:44, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
====Option 3====
@7feetunder: On your reasoning under ''Do nothing'', the idea of an early-consensus-early-conclusion rule for proposals is intriguing... I feel as if we have 2-week proposals that can end early if everyone has a near unanimous consensus on what to do with the proposal, we'd have an ideal middle ground. --[[User:OmegaRuby|OmegaRuby]] ([[User talk:OmegaRuby|talk]]) 08:55, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a ''greater whole'' (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in ''{{wp|The Color of Water}}''. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of ''{{wp|Resident Alien (TV series)|Resident Alien}}''. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the ''Super Mario'' franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "[[Gusty Garden Galaxy (theme)|Gusty Garden Galaxy]]" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and [[Gusty Garden Galaxy]] is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per N101. quotation marks are a writing convention! most mario games also don't have italic titles, but we italicize them anyways because it's a formal writing convention that makes sense
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Strong oppose, per all. This is a well-recognized writing convention, the fact that Nintendo doesn't typically follow it within their products is irrelevant.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Nintendo101. These quotes are here for a reason, no matter how remote it may seem.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Quoting songs is from the manual of style itself, it's the same reason we italicize game titles. I would go even further and quote song titles as a display title like I did in "[[Starring Wario!]]"
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - "Because game writing" is what leads to wikis encouraging jokey sarcastic writing, which I'm pretty sure is not the direction we want to go.


==New features==
====Comments====
''None at the moment.''
If this passes, how would it affect coverage of non-Mario music? Our only options are either to have two standards, or ignore established convention based on what Nintendo does for media they had no hand in actually producing. Neither seems ideal to me. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:24, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:We'd treat non-Mario music the same as Mario music. Established convention doesn't mean much when we're always saying on this page that we're not other wikis and we don't necessarily need to do things the way other wikis do them. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::I don't think anyone is advocating to hold onto a convention just for the sake of it. Rather, that we should hold onto the convention because it is useful and the proposal doesn't provide persuasive reasons to abandon that usage, or at least it does not for me. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)
In addition, I wouldn't use applications such as Nintendo Music as proof that we shouldn't abide by formatting either. Neither music metadata nor files themselves quote song names, neither does [https://open.spotify.com/track/433JymbpWnRMHXzp1oTRP7 Spotify] nor [https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Bother-Shakira/dp/B000BUEG9U Amazon Music]. Yet {{Wp|Don't Bother|Wikipedia still does}} because that's how it's standardized in writing articles. In addition, you pointed out how "Starring Wario!" is the outlier as your point, I've '''only just started working on those articles''' mate. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:01, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:Even Wikipedia doesn't use the quotes in article titles though. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:17, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::I would support an option that called for just removing the quotation marks in the header for articles (as done {{wp|I Am the Walrus|here}}, which should be compared to {{wp|Magical Mystery Tour#Track listing|here}}). This is not uncommon in written books on music. But there currently is no voting option to do just that. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)
{{@|Ray Trace}} I'm aware it's in the manual of style. That's why the proposal is about changing the manual of style. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:I'm not talking about the wiki's manual style. I'm talking about general guidelines especially [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_works_cited_other_common_sources.html MLA] {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:41, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::If it's not ''our'' manual of style, then there's no reason for us to care about it because we don't use it. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:04, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::''Our'' manual of style '''is based on this manual of style.''' {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:11, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::If it's only ''based on'' it, then it ''isn't'' it. The manual of style is ours, so this quote mark convention has to survive on its own merits, not just by virtue of being in someone ''else's'' manual of style. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:22, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::Not using general formatting standard guidelines solely because "we shouldn't just because we're not them" is not a good argument. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::Well, then — '''Nintendo doesn't do this either, so there's no reason for this wiki to ''pretend'' like they do.''' That's been my argument this whole time. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The main difference is that they're a video game, and they're inherently informal in their presentation. They're not trying to write things and bios formally, they're trying to present writing to players, so formatting like italicizing game titles is optional, because that's what it's set out to do. On the other hand, we're an encyclopedia, our writing formatting is far more similar to Wikipedia which observes these things and MLA writing guidelines, and how to format sourcing, and it's something we ''should'' emulate over a video game's script. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:47, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::{{@|Ahemtoday}} I don't think that is the strong argument you think it is, because almost no piece of media where it has become conventional to include quotation marks include them themselves. They are not on the back of most [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/e1/7e/abe17ef61a737df53498f93487668213.jpg albums], [https://images.template.net/89102/novel-table-of-contents-template-wvzrz.jpeg books], or [https://addbcdbimages.s3.amazonaws.com/nick/sbsp_fish_bowl.jpg title cards for television shows]. But they are all still presented with quotes arounf them in reference material like Wikipedia and physical books. What makes the Nintendo music we cover here so different that warrants unique treatment? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:53, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Nintendo doesn't always italicize game titles either, this site does. To be honest, though, I'm not sure how consistently this wiki observes MLA. There's some superficial basis in it (mostly coming off of Wikipedia's style guide, which is sprinkled with some MLA), what with the titles of whole works being written in italics and those of constituent parts of a work being surrounded by quotes, yet the manner in which citations are formatted, arguably a priority of any academic style guide, seems rather peculiar to Wikipedia's house style. Take any citation formatted using the {{tem|cite}} template on this wiki and compare it to how [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_formatting_and_style_guide.html MLA proposes it is done] <small>(owl.purdue.edu)</small>. There's also been at least [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Italics_formatting_of_boat_names.2C_fictional_products.2C_and_others|one attempt]] at explicitly adopting a standard purveyed by MLA that got shot down. Not to digress too much, I just wanted to point out that MLA is not currently as pervasive here as it's made out to be and can't be appealed to solely because of a few instances that (happen to) observe it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:20, November 11, 2024 (EST), edited 19:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::I am personally forgiving on how we structure citations in that template, because many academic journals don't adopt the MLA structure either. Everyone does something a little different from one another. The information included in a citation is more important than how it is organized, and things like ISBN are pretty helpful for an online reference like Super Mario Wiki.
::::::::But I also don't believe in supporting conventions just for the sake of them ''being'' conventions. I'd rather support them if they are beneficial. What are your thoughts on what I said in my vote above? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:33, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::I cannot argue with your vote. If a writing standard promoted by outside guides can harmonize with the needs of Mario Wiki, there's no reason not to adopt it. Quotation marks serve their purpose well in this case. so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:10, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::Cool! I was just curious. I value your perspective. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:14, November 11, 2024 (EST)


==Removals==
I'm realizing I haven't given my full thoughts on {{@|Nintendo101}}'s vote yet. I agree that there are benefits to formatting song titles in this way (particularly in sentences, which is why I have the option to keep the quote marks exclusively ''in'' sentences) — but this formatting scheme misrepresents how the actual works in question are referred to by official media. I had to ask a friend who had Nintendo Music to find out whether or not the app displayed song titles in quotes, because I couldn't trust this wiki to tell me — and, like I said, Nintendo Music ''doesn't''. Yet [[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music|this article]] writes the song names as if it ''does'', because apparently this convention is more important than this kind of information. I know this is a minor piece of information, but this formatting convention causes me to be '''unable to trust the wiki about it'''. No benefit can counterbalance that. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)
''None at the moment.''
:I am sorry that you felt mislead, but are you sure it is not because you were unfamiliar with this being a convention for music pieces in the first place? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:12, November 12, 2024 (EST)
::I was well familiar with the convention and how this wiki used it at the time, which is why I knew to ask a friend instead of taking the wiki's word for it. I take such a hardline stance against it not because this untrustworthiness has personally wronged me, but because untrustworthiness is a failure of the wiki on principle. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 00:02, November 13, 2024 (EST)
:::I am sorry, I was not referring to Super Mario Wiki in isolation. I was referring to the convention at large. In books and articles on music, regardless of topic, individual pieces are placed within quotation marks. I know I myself first learned one is supposed to put quotation marks around music titles while I was taking English class in middle school. So while I am sympathetic that this bothered you, I do not agree it is misleading. Maybe the issue lies with folks who do not have a lot of experience reading or writing about music. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:05, November 13, 2024 (EST)
::::Whether or not readers are familiar with the convention doesn't change the fact that the convention is not reflective of what is being talked about. The only reason wiki readers know [["Thrills at Night"]] and its ilk are actually surrounded in quotes officially is because we haven't been thorough in applying this convention. If we ''did'', then the distinction would vanish completely, because the wiki currently considers adhering to this guideline more important than this kind of information. You can't pin that on readers being unfamiliar. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:17, November 13, 2024 (EST)
:::::I have contacted the director of the Purdue OWL at Purdue University to ask them how one should cite music tracks that already has quotation marks rendered in their name. However, to be honest, I am still not really sure what the issue here is. How are the quotation marks any different from italicization of video games and albums? The name ''Paper Mario: The Origami King'' is not displayed anywhere in Nintendo's official material italicized, but we do it for the same reasons one puts quotation marks around music tracks - because it is a useful MLA convention. For music, it is unclear to me on what is being miscommunicated or lost when they are accurately displayed between quotation marks, especially since articles for "Thrills at Night" and other tracks are accompanied with [[:File:PMTOK Thrills at Night.jpg|screenshots that show how they are rendered in-game]]. Is this not sufficient? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
::::::It is not sufficient. To begin with, not every use of song titles is accompanied by images showing that the music titles are formatted without quotes — the majority of articles in [[:Category:Sound tests]] do not have such images. (Not to mention that to use these images to establish the formatting of every song title in a given game would require a comically excessive amount of images.) Furthermore, even if they ''did'', this information would be entirely invisible to users of screen readers, raising accessibility concerns. This information can't be conveyed by images alone. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 15:14, November 14, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Couldn't it just be clarified in the article itself that a piece of music is displayed with quotations mark around it? It is not a very common thing to do. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
::::::::Writing in an explicit note clarifying that ''this'' time the article is actually reflective of how the music is referred to officially is a much more convoluted way of going about this compared to just referring to them in the official way to begin with. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 16:50, November 14, 2024 (EST)


==Changes==
Biggestman: The formatting of quotes in songs aren't discussed from a cultural relevancy angle, they're in context of being part of an album. It's the same reason short poetry gets quotes, but novels get italicized, we'd quote "The Raven" but still italicize ''The Day My Butt Went Psycho''. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:40, November 15, 2024 (EST)
=== Split articles for certain official single-game enemy behavior splits ===
In the early days, before Nintendo was really sure how they wanted to classify enemies, there were some splits that didn't stick - namely, behaviors that were initially unique to a specific subtype, and then became normal alternatives to the base enemies. I'm specifically talking about:
*'''Sky Blooper''' - [[Blooper]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels''
*'''Upside-down Buzzy Beetle''' - [[Buzzy Beetle]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*'''Upside-down Spiny''' - [[Spiny]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*'''Scattering Blooper''' - [[Blooper Nanny]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*'''Upside-down Piranha''' - [[Piranha Plant]] variant from ''Super Mario Land''


I make this mainly because [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/smb2/?lang=en the] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/smb3/?lang=en Mario] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/land/?lang=en Portal] splits each of these for these games specifically, across language borders, despite being a newer source (which is notably a lot more than Boss Bass/Big Bertha gets, so that merge remains correct), along with Upside-down Piranha making the ''Smash Bros.'' Piranha Plant list; other instances of similar things occurring that have not (yet) been corroborated by a source like Portal (such as ''[[Cheep Cheep|Tobipuku]]'' from ''New Super Mario Bros.'') will not be counted. Now, I want to clarify something important: '''this split only covers the appearances where the official word treats them as distinct enemies.''' Random upside-down Buzzy Beetles and Piranha Plants in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' are not counted, as they are not distinguished from their base species in any way in that game. I see this as similar to [[Fire Nipper Plant]], another SMB3 enemy whose fire-breathing characteristics were given to normal [[Nipper Plant]]s in a few later games.
===Add identifiers to near-identical titles===
Current MarioWiki writing guidelines state that articles with shared titles recieve an identifier to disambiguate between them (see: [[Mark (Mario Tennis series)|Mark (''Mario Tennis'' series)]] and [[Mark (NES Open Tournament Golf)|Mark (''NES Open Tournament Golf'')]]). However, this currently relies on the articles sharing an identical, character-by-character name. This means [[Color coin]] (''Super Mario Run'') and [[Colored coin]] (''Wario Land 3'') do not recieve identifiers, despite sharing functionally identical titles. Other sets of articles with the same dilemma include [[Secret Course 1]] (''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins'') and [[Secret Course 01]] (''Super Mario Run''), [[Spyguy]] (''Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis'') and [[Spy Guy]] (''Paper Mario''), and [[Rollin' Down the River]] (''Yoshi's Woolly World'') and [[Rolling Down the River]] (''The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!'').  


I have a demo for these pages in the various sections of [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Early merges|this]] page, along with stuff for the below proposal.
This proposal aims to amend [[MarioWiki:Naming]] to consider near-identical titles like these as "shared titles", and thus qualify for recieving an identifier according to the established criteria. This is already applied in some articles, but this proposal aims to formalize it as part of the naming rules.


EDIT 9/28: Adding an option for only splitting the two Bloopers.
Note that this proposal only covers names that are '''semantically identical''', and only differ in formatting or minor word choices. [[Buzzar]] and [[Buzzer]] have extremely similar names, but they aren't semantically identical. [[Balloon Boo]] and [[Boo Balloon]] are extremely similar as well, but the word order sets them apart.  


'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Edit:''' Per Hewer's question and my comment below, I'd like to point out MarioWiki already does this sometimes. Pairs of near-identical names with identifiers include [[Family Basic (microgame)]] and [[Family BASIC]] (as ruled by [[Talk:Family_Basic_(microgame)#Moving_the_page|a proposal]]), [[Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise)|Hot Air Balloon (''Donkey Kong'' franchise)]] and [[Hot-air balloon]], [[Finish line (object)]] and [[Finish Line (microgame)]], and [[Avalanche (obstacle)]] and both [[Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix)|Avalanche! (''Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix'')]] and [[Avalanche! (Mario Party 4)|Avalanche! (''Mario Party 4'')]]. If this proposal doesn't pass, all of these would get their identifiers removed.
'''Deadline''': October 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Scattering Support====
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
'''Deadline''': November 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.


====Bloopers only, no upside-down!====
====Support====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I see no problem with this. Unlike the other proposed splits, normal Bloopers have not inherited the defining airborne traits of Sky Bloopers outside of the ''Super Mario Maker'' games, which breaks a lot of conventions for the sake of fun creative gameplay. I do not think it is the same situation as Upside-down Piranha Plant or Spiny.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Agreed.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Blooper proposal
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} If [[Super Blooper (boss)|this Blooper]] can be split, then so can the ones listed here. On the other hand, the upside-down variants are splitting hairs. Do we split [https://youtu.be/G-JHFcn3qWs?t=58 the Goombas from anti-gravity sections] just because they're upside down?
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Second pick, per all.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.


====Upside-down Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Arend}} ''Maybe'' a case could be made for Scattering Blooper, but Sky Blooper and Upside-down Piranha Plant also behave (nearly) identical to their regular counterparts. Not to mention that nearly all the regular versions of these enemies have retroactively gained attributes of these enemies too (Buzzy Beetles and Spinies can appear commonly walking on ceilings and dropping down in various games, Piranha Plants can pop out upside down from a ceiling pipe in various games, nearly all Bloopers encountered on land float above the ground; none of these are regarded as distinct variants in those later games), so it's a little weird to me if only those specific versions of enemies are regarded as separate entities but regular versions of these enemies adapting these attributes aren't; feels inconsistent and confusing for a reader.
#{{User|Altendo}} I don't see a need for this. If the names are similar, tophats containing the other pages can be placed on the pages with similar names. Identifiers are used to identify subjects with ''identical names'', not similar names.
#{{User|Axii}} Per Arend. I feel like it would be an unnecessary split. Nintendo doesn't refer to these enemies separately in any newer games. Sky Blooper may have had a chance, but ''Super Mario Maker'' clearly shows that they are just regular Bloopers. I can see Scattering Blooper being split in the future though.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Altendo, this is what [[Template:Distinguish]] is for. We have to use identifiers for identical titles because the wiki can't have multiple pages with the same title, but that limitation doesn't exist if the titles are just similar. This would make the titles longer than they need to be, and I could also see this leading to disagreements about what's similar enough to count, if the examples are anything to go by. Easier to stick to the objectivity of only giving identical names identifiers. The proposal also doesn't specify what the "some articles" are where this has already been done, but I'm assuming they should be changed.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per opposition.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Dine2017}} Per Hewer & I'd like to see the use of identifier kept to a minimum because it simplifies typing (URL, wikicode, etc.)
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} i can see the case for scattering blooper and MAYBE sky blooper, but i don't think i agree with the philosophy behind the proposal.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Per Hewer. No need to extend the title just because of a couple letter difference. The identifiers are there for identical titles because it's impossible for wikipages to have the same name.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} The idea of splitting certain minor behavior differences in enemies, but ''only'' in certain games where they are given a specific adjective relating to the thing they do, honestly just sounds ridiculous. If you're going to split some of them, you might as well split all of them, lest you create a glaring inconsistency in the wiki's coverage of these enemy variants.<br>Also keep in mind that these individual acknowledgements of upside-down enemies aren't consistent even between these similar-era games; Piranha Plants can be found upside-down as early as ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels|The Lost Levels]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'', yet would be confusingly absent from your proposed "Upside-down Piranha Plant" article due to not being called "Upside-down Piranha Plants" (and also kind of throws a wrench into your theory that these were originally special variants before being merged into the main enemy). These upside-down enemies are only listed on ''Mario Portal'' when the game's respective manual also mentions them (with apparently a single exception in SMB3's Upside-down Spiny), suggesting less of a confirmation as species and more of an attempt to parallel existing material.<br>The only potential exceptions I see here are the Bloopers, particularly the Sky Blooper with its actually distinct appearance. Though, if the red Koopa Troopa, an enemy that has had consistently has a different appearance and behavior from its green counterpart in all mainline games it has appeared in (the black-and-white SML2 with only the ledge-fearing green Koopa doesn't count due to there being no red Koopa to compare with), [[Talk:Koopa_Troopa#Split_Red_Koopa_Troopa_and_Green_Koopa_Troopa|is too minor a difference to get an article]], then how are these any different?
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Hewer. Making this change would only cause more confusion, not less.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} Some of these proposed splits are overkill.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Split enemies for one game each? Not unless we split everybody into singular game subpages like [[smashwiki:Mario (SSBB)|Smash Wiki's fighter pages]].
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I don't think there's a benefit to splitting Bloopers because the ''Super Mario Maker'' games treat them the same anyways. Plus, there's games like ''Paper Mario: The Origami King'' where Bloopers come from the water and are fought on land, and there's no specific place to put those.
<s>#{{User|Hewer}} Not opposed to all of these (I'd probably support splitting Sky Blooper), but while I do generally like following official classification of things, having an article for Buzzy Beetles that were upside down in SMB3 specifically and no other game just feels silly and confusing.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.</s>


====Sky Comments====
====Comments====
I understand the rationale, but Mario Portal (and most game material) also recognizes things like green-shelled and red-shelled Koopas as distinct from one another and they also have different behaviors from one another. That'd probably be a bigger proposal than you'd be interested in executing, but how would you feel on those types of enemies being split? I at least like the idea of Sky Blooper getting its own article on the face of it. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:27, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
I'm not sure why this is a problem in the first place, can you please elaborate? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:Those shouldn't be by virtue of the functional distinctions being inconsistent, especially when you get into things like Shy Guys. Most of them use (identifiers) too rather than actual naming differences. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
:i just find it a bit unreasonable to expect people to remember the difference between two names that are identical in all but formatting, or essentially irrelevant word choice differences (in the case of Color coin and Colored coin, which have also been). this is especially true while editing; i had to verify whether Secret Course 1 was the SML2 one or the SMR one when writing the [[Secret exit]] article. without resorting to a literal, robotic interpretation of the rules, all of the articles i mentioned have functionally "the same name" as their pair, and there is precedent for adding identifiers to article names like these. [[Family Basic (microgame)]] recieved a differentiatior because a mere capitalization difference from [[Family BASIC]] [[Talk:Family_Basic_(microgame)#Moving_the_page|was deemed unreasonable]]. folks in the MarioWiki Discord server agreed with me when i asked if i should rename [[Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise)]] (previously just "Hot Air Balloon", with no hyphen and Air capitalized) to differentiate it from [[Hot-air balloon]]. [[Avalanche (obstacle)]] has an identifier to separate it from [[Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix)]] and [[Avalanche! (Mario Party 4)]], even though both of them have exclamation marks. [[Finish line (object)]] and [[Finish Line (microgame)]] get identifiers, even though they're capitalized differently. this is something we already do, the aim here is just to formalize it. [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 14:51, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::Fair (especially for Shy Guys), though generally, I'm pretty sure red-shelled Koopas mechanically are always the ones that turn when they reach an edge, whereas green-shelled ones don't.
::This proposal passing wouldn't mean you no longer have to check whether it's Secret Course 1 or 01, it'd just mean you now have to type an unnecessary identifier and pipe link it as well. I'd say it's different for finish line and Family BASIC where the only difference between titles is casing, as the search function on the wiki is case insensitive (and also, that proposal made [[Family Basic]] a redirect to [[Family BASIC]], so an identifier is still needed to distinguish from that). But in the other cases, we don't need the identifier. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:49, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::What if, for those enemies, there was a similar scenario as with [[Koopa Shell]]s, where there is one main article, but also smaller ones for [[Green Shell]]s and [[Red Shell]]s for scenarios where the shells have mechanical differences? We could have a main [[Koopa Troopa]] article, and then a Koopa Troopa (Green) and Koopa Troopa (Red). - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:50, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::You're only looking in terms of 2D platformers, there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:02, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
::::(I hope this is isn't too tangential - I appreciate your insight on this) I think the only 3D platformer with both Koopa Troopas is Super Mario Galaxy, and they still have mechanical differences from one another in those games.
::::For platformers and spin-offs where colors are only cosmetic, I think it would be fine for them to share a single Koopa Troopa article (again, similar setup to Koopa Shell). But I understand the resistance to that idea, because it could be messy and difficult to curate. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:09, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
:::::And there's the black-and-white ''Super Mario Land 2'', where the art shows green, but the behavior's more like typical red ones. Then we get into Paratroopas, where originally green hopped or moved back-and-forth and red moved up-and-down, then games like ''Super Mario World'' have red ones moving horizontally or green ones moving vertically. And then there's Cheep Cheep - swimming Cheep Cheeps' colors in SMB1 were purely cosmetic, then SMB3 had lots of behavioral variation among red-colored ones and only one behavior for green-colored ones. I think keeping the "color" ones grouped unless a very notable difference is present (like the ''Paper Mario'' and ''Yoshi's Story'' versions of [[Black Shy Guy]]) is the best way to go in that regard. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:23, September 26, 2024 (EDT)


@Opposition I see this as a similar case to [[Gloomba]] only covering the blue underground Goombas when they are officially split, or [[Headbonk Goomba]] only covering headbonking Goombas when ''they'' are officially split. Same for the large-sized Chain Chomps and Wigglers sometimes being considered "big" versions and sometimes considered standard. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:09, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
==New features==
:I see those as a bit different since they have functional or other differences specific to those games, blue Goombas aren't normally stronger than the standard versions. As far as I can tell, the only way Upside-down Buzzy Beetle is more of a variant in SMB3 than it is any other game is in name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:52, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
===Create a category for "catch-all articles"===
::The fact that Portal, which is recent, bothers to split them for those games specifically rather than ignore it in favor of following what later games do makes me think this is still valid. Especially since Upside-Down Piranhas were also differentiated in Viridi's Piranha Plant list in ''Smash Ultimate''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:09, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
By "catch-all article" (tentative term; please suggest names) I mean those that describe elements that are not related, but share an article because they boil down to the same generic, '''often''' real world object. Many of them fit what the [[MarioWiki:Generic subjects|guidelines]] call a "generic subject". Examples of this kind of article are:
:::Technically, do we know whether Viridi was referring to specifically upside-down Piranha Plants from Super Mario Land, rather than just upside-down ones in general? Not sure if it's different in Japanese, but their placement in the list is notably odd especially if it was meant to be referring to just Mario Land, as they are the last variant listed before the three Petey Piranhas, rather than the roughly release date order the list mostly uses. As for Mario Portal, Nintendo101's point about red and green Koopa Troopas compels me to ignore that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:12, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
::::They're the only ones that are named as such, so yes. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:36, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Uhhh, I'd find sources other than Super Mario Land and the Mario Portal before I confidently make claims like that. Personally, I doubt that these games are the only instances in which the Japanese word for "upside-down" immediately precedes the name of an enemy that happens to be upside-down. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 01:46, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Treating it as a label, there are none. Prose, perhaps, but not as a deliberate label. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:03, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Again, sources???? The only evidence I could find vaguely supporting you (for the Piranha Plant in ''Lost Levels'' at least) is in a scan of the Japanese Super Mario All-Stars guide, which is after you claim they dropped the concept. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:47, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::What Portal is doing is enough, IMO. It shows their "current interpretation" is that they are different enough for a separate listing (without the parentheses, even) specifically in the respective games I listed, but not elsewhere. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:42, September 28, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|DrippingYellow}} - Technically, only the Upside-Down Piranha Plants in SML have the point bonus, which is part of how the game defines its enemies. Also, that "paralleling existing material" also doesn't split color, so this doesn't seem inconsistent to me. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:36, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
*[[Hook]], which includes the object from ''[[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest]]'' and the hooks on poles from ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'';
:...Are you seriously trying to argue that the ''point value'' of the enemy is the clincher here? As though enemies are supposed to stay exactly the same with no changes between games? Maybe the developers of SML thought you deserved more of a reward for landing a Superball shot on these upside-down enemies, but how does that specifically support them being considered a unique variant of Piranha Plant in only Super Mario Land? And sure, they called the red Koopa Troopas "Koopa Troopa (Red)" or whatever instead of "Red Koopa Troopa", but simply having a unique name is not the end-all be-all of whether something gets an article or not ([[Black Shy Guy (Yoshi's Story)]], the countless articles that we had to give a conjectural name, to name a few).<br>The problem is simply that versions of enemies that are visually idential and behaviorally similar to their normal counterpart usually don't get split, regardless of whether they have a unique name or not. And somehow, what you're proposing is even more bizarre than that; that these specific enemies in these specific games are Upside-down with a capital "U", and should be split, and the others, lowercase "u", with the ''exact same behavior, attributes, and appearance'', should not. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 01:46, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
*[[Lift]], which includes the yellow lifts seen in ''Super Mario'' games, elevators from ''[[Donkey Kong Country]]'', Moving Platforms from ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis]]'', among others, all just basic platforms;
::I see this as equivalent to [[Fire Nipper Plant]], which only appeared once in SMB3, and later RPGs gave normal Nipper Plants identical fire breath abilities. And the point value is a notable difference in function. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:03, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
*[[Bubble]], which includes the underwater bubble from ''[[Super Mario 64]]'', the player-carrying bubble from ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'', the Bubble trap from ''[[Diddy Kong Racing]]'', among others;
:::Even if these truly are separate listed enemies in only these specific games, this is more like the Grinder/Ukiki situation if anything; two completely different enemies from different series that were eventually merged, and we treat them as the same thing. No "Grinder" article that only covers the monkeys in the ''Yoshi's Island'' games and not ''Wooly World''. This situation is even simpler than that debacle if you ask me, as we know exactly what to look for in terms of defining traits (that is, they are upside-down). See also: the [[Helper Monkey]] article, with all of the uniquely-named-in-Japan variants merged together for the sake of simplicity. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:47, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
*[[Banana]], which includes the bananas from the [[Mario Kart (series)|''Mario Kart'']] series, the bananas from the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)|''Donkey Kong Country'']] games, the bananas from ''[[Yoshi's Story]]'', among others;
::::The monkeys are mainly a snarl because YNI used both (O-saru-san in-game for a level name, Ucky in the guidebook), but in that case the "two separate enemies" weren't in a single game alongside each-other separately, so that situation is still different. There's also a reverse situation related to that, where Big Cheep Cheep lost its funny big mouth and its original design was eventually given to its derivative Cheep Chomp (in the same game that gave Grinder's design to Ukiki). Now, I do ''get'' where you're coming from, but I find this situation clean enough to enact this. Meanwhile, on the [https://triforcewiki.com/ Triforce Wiki], I list both of the "Zora" designs together, while Nintendo back-and-forths on whether they're different, the same, or different-looking clans of the same species (which as of ''Echoes of Wisdom'', is their current depiction) - I find that to be too much confusing mingling to bother attempting to split it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:45, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
*[[Heart (item)|Heart]], which includes the heart item from ''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'', the one from ''[[Donkey Kong Country Returns]]'', the one from ''[[Dr. Mario World]]'', among others.
::I will say, Nintendo is inconsistent with whether they list colored variants as separate subjects or lumped together, but in the modern era (the mid-2010s onward), they generally do if there are mechanical differences between them. For example, the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'' and Mario Portal list red and green Koopa Troopas separately for every game where they both appear (as well as yellow and blue ones in ''Super Mario World''), as well as the [https://ninten-switch.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/supar-mario-bros-wonder-for-nintendo-switch-kanzepki-guidebook-hanbai3.jpg Kadokawa guidebook for ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'']. They do not do this for enemies that appear in multiple colors but have no mechanical differences between them, like [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/3d_world/index.html Biddybuds, Para-Biddybuds, or Lava Bubbles in ''Super Mario 3D World''] (of note, they do recognize blue and red Lava Bubbles separately [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/galaxy2/index.html in ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''], where they do have mechanical and behavioral differences with each other. I should also note that I have seen ''Super Mario 3D Land'' Biddybud figures sold with color denotations in their listed names in Japan, but it makes sense to do that for physical merchandise).
::I do not know the best approach for Super Mario Wiki. My gut feeling is that it would be best to stick to the systematics employed by the source material, and if that material is listing enemies separately by behavior or color or size, then it is not inherently unreasonable for them to get a dedicated article. What constitutes an "enemy" is not innate - it does not necessarily mean they are members of different species or anything like that (as apparent with [[Giant Goomba]]s, which can split into [[Hefty Goomba]]s, then normal [[Goomba]]s, indicating all Goombas have the capacity to mature into Giant Goombas and would be members of the same exact species, but they are not the same enemy). But our source material is inconsistent and fluid, adjusting based on the specific functions of individual games, as is the case with Lava Bubbles in SMG2 and SM3DW. They have flipflopped with whether they recognize different colors as separate enemies or the same ones (such as [https://imgur.com/32lQKbm here, in the bestiary for ''New Super Mario Bros.'' from 2006 that lumps Koopa Troopas together]) but they are also inconsistent in contemporary sources. In the encyclopedia, [[Big Deep Cheep]] is listed as a distinct enemy in the first ''New Super Mario Bros.'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'' - it is lumped with the [[Deep Cheep|smaller one]] in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' even though it has not undergone any behavioral changes, and this is in the same book. [[Dragoneel]]s are lumped as one enemy in the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' section, even though there are fast, extremely long red Dragoneels and stout, slow-moving blue Dragoneels, which seems as valid a distinction as green and red Koopa Troopas. In the Kadokawa ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' excerpt I linked to above, it recognizes Red Koopa Troopas and Red Koopa Paratroopas as separate enemies from the green ones, but it lists brown and purple [[Trompette]]s as one enemy, as well as yellow and blue [[Konk]]s. This is despite the fact that the difference between the brown and purple Trombettes is that the latter turns around when it reaches the edge of a platform... just like red Koopa Troopas in the same game. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:18, September 28, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|ThePowerPlayer}} - Well those aren't given a different name, especially not in a consistent manner across multiple sources, which was the crux here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:37, September 29, 2024 (EDT)
They may also boil down to a similar ''fictional'' basic concept, which are their own distinct thing, despite all of them taking a similar form:  


@SeanWheeler: What? The proposal is about splitting particular enemy variants. It has nothing to do with what you said. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:24, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
*[[! Block]], which includes the red blocks from the [[Yoshi's Island (series)|''Yoshi's Island'' games]] games, the block-spawning yellow blocks from ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'', the ! Block switches from the [[Wario Land (series)|''Wario Land'' games]];
*[[Poison Mushroom]], which includes the mushrooms from ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels]]'', the Poison Shroom item from the early [[Paper Mario (series)|''Paper Mario'' games]], among others;
*[[? Panel]], which includes the panels from ''[[Super Mario Kart]]'', the ones from ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', and others.


{{@|Scrooge200}} - The SMM ones are to stay on the Blooper page, though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:59, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
Compare subjects to which this category would '''not''' apply, like [[? Block]] or [[P-Switch]], where every reappearance of the subject is really a deliberate revisitation of a specific concept that already existed.


=== Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from ''All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.'' ===
This category would be applied to articles on concrete subjects only (most of which, if not all, would be objects).
''[[All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.]]'' has various alternatively named graphic swaps of things from ''Super Mario Bros.'', most of which relate to the cast and iconography of the show it is based on. These include:
*OkaP and Pakkun OkaP replacing Goomba and Piranha Plant ([[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Early merges|split demoed here]] alongside stuff from the above proposal
*The ''Hiranya'' replacing the Star
*The various celebrities replacing the Toads (though admittedly the bonus one is unknown)


These are meant to be seen as different things from the originals, so the current system of lumping them in with them is awkward to say the least. The only real outlier here is the NBS logo replacing the axe, because from what I can tell [https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Nippon_Broadcasting_System Katsu Yoshida never named the eye].
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro Hammer}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT


'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
====Support====
'''Deadline''': October 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} My proposal.


====Sunplaza Support - all subjects====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't see how such a category would be useful, and I don't like that it's pretty subjective and is based on a trait shared by the articles rather than the objects themselves. Even if there was value in distinguishing these pages, I don't think a category like this is the way to do it.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Consistent with how we handle, say, [[Deku Baba]]s in ''[[Mario Kart 8]]''.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Is [[History of Mario]] a catch-all article because it covers both a fictional character and [[Bob Hoskins]]? We would have to have that sort of debate for too many articles to count. This is too subjective and doesn't really accomplish anything.
#{{User|Shoey}} I've always said the wiki needs more weirdo articles.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Unnecessary, and the word "generic" alone is unclear whether it goes by the definition of real-life or ''Super Mario''.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per. Don't see why not. Deku Baba is a good parallel.
#{{User|Arend}} Honestly, the inclusion of fictional items like Poison Mushroom, ! Block and ? Panel would make it more confusing for me what a "catch-all article" is supposed to be; if it's supposed to be about generic subjects, then their inclusion would definitely muddy the concept quite a bit. Not to mention that the term "catch-all article" isn't clear enough as it is.
#{{User|Mariuigi Khed}} Per.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} i always thought we dont give ANNSMB enough coverage here. per all
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} I'm tempted to say this seems like unnecessary splitting of information, but I guess the information would still also be present in the main article, wouldn't it? This seems fine.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense, and perhaps this could finally crack the mystery of who that unknown celebrity is! Per all.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all, especially on [[Deku Baba]] and [[Keese]].
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Those look nothing like the original enemies.


====Sunplaza Support - only enemies====
====Comments====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
My gut reaction is that I disagree that the Poison Mushroom and Lift articles encompass generic subjects. They are supported as discrete in the paratext for these games. But even if narrowed to articles I agree are generic, it is not inherently clear to me what the benefit of having a "catch-all category" would be. My general view is that there are quite a few subjects that we consider to be generic which really are not. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:45, November 10, 2024 (EST)
 
:What would be some subjects you don't consider generic? My case for the Lift is that it's an article that encompasses almost all types of flat, moving platforms (a basic platforming game object), many even with their own distinct names; I believe you could even argue for some of the versions to get their own articles. And yeah, I agree that there's no huge benefit to having this category, as it would be there mostly for the sake of acknowledgement that "this article does not describe the history of a single idea, but it's instead an aggregation of the histories of various ideas that fit under this umbrella". {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 16:25, November 10, 2024 (EST)
====OkaP Oppose====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'd personally not want to split these enemies since doing so is practically a degree away from re-splitting ''Super Mario World'''s "Fall" graphic swaps (and the ''Advance 2'' exclusives don't have their own names).
 
====Katsu-eye Comments====
 
===Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2===
Since the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles|last proposal]], other proposals have cropped up which sought to trim excess appellatives and nicknames from the titles of various character articles. As a result of these proposals, which saw little to no contention, the following changes were made:
*Professor Elvin Gadd [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|was moved to]] "Professor E. Gadd".
*Baby Donkey Kong [[Talk:Baby DK#Move to Baby DK|was moved to]] "Baby DK".
*Crossover characters with formerly descriptive titles (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog, Fox McCloud) [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change_full_names_of_crossover_characters_to_the_more_often_used_shortened_versions_in_article_titles|were moved to]] the shortened forms of their names (e.g. "Sonic", "Fox").
 
As well, before the aforementioned proposal:
*Donkey Kong Country's Animal Friends [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Move_animal_names_from_the_Donkey_Kong_Country_series_to_just_their_normal_names|were moved to their shorthand names]].
*Conker the Squirrel [[Talk:Conker#Rename_to_Conker|was moved to]] "Conker".
 
Vigilant gamers and game lore extraordinaires will know why these changes were made: the short forms of these subjects' names have been much more prominent and recent in their relevant official works, and their display titles across the site did not reflect this predilection. The Koopalings, as well as [[Princess Daisy]], are now the outliers in this specific regard--but while [[Talk:Princess_Daisy#Move_to_"Daisy"|the sentiment against moving Daisy's name to its more common shortened form]] was the inconsistency that would arise with [[Princess Peach]] using her long title, I do not recall the Koopalings, as a group, having some special counterpart that would create a similar perceived inconsistency.


Yeah, [[Larry]] was called "Larry Koopa" in a specific line of dialogue within Smash Ultimate, in a decade-and-a-half old licensed player's guide, and probably some 2010's toy that I'm sure users will name here in the comments, but the fact is, his short name has been promoted front-and-center within all of the games he has appeared from Mario Kart 8 back in 2014 until today, many of which are namedropped in the previous proposal. Same with his 6 siblings.
===Create articles for Glohm enemies or merge them with their normal counterparts===
I'm currently contributing to ''[[Mario & Luigi: Brothership]]'' content, and I'm currently creating articles for enemies in the game. It has been brought to my attention that [[Glohm]] enemies are basically stronger versions of preexisting enemies, although they have unique characteristics.


Besides, [[MarioWiki:Naming]] states plainly:
This proposal aims to determine whether or not Glohm enemies get their own articles. So, there are two choices for when Glohm enemy coverage eventually occurs:
*"the name of an article should correspond to the '''most commonly used English name''' of the subject"
*"the more commonly used modern name should be used as the title"


and I believe it's only sensible for the wiki to mirror the more recent developments of the franchise in how a subject is introduced to readers.
1. '''Glohm enemies get their own articles.''' They get their own dedicated pages.


Affected pages include:
2. '''Glohm enemy coverage is limited to the articles for their normal counterparts.''' This means all Glohm related information for them is explained for the normal versions of the enemies.
{|
|-
|
*[[Larry Koopa]] (will be moved to "Larry")
*[[Roy Koopa]] ("Roy")
*[[Wendy O. Koopa]] ("Wendy")
*[[Lemmy Koopa]] ("Lemmy")
*[[Morton Koopa Jr.]] ("Morton")
*[[Ludwig von Koopa]] ("Ludwig")
*[[Iggy Koopa]] ("Iggy")
|
*[[List of Larry Koopa profiles and statistics]] (will be moved to "List of Larry profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Roy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Roy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Wendy O. Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Wendy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Lemmy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Lemmy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Morton Koopa Jr. profiles and statistics]] ("List of Morton profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Ludwig von Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Ludwig profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Iggy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Iggy profiles and statistics")
|}


Note:
Let's see what happens!
*This proposal targets only page titles. Even if it's a pass, articles can still acknowledge the full forms of these characters where appropriate, such as in Koopaling article openers.
*If this proposal passes, the templates in [[:Category:Koopaling content templates]] become obsolete and are to be abolished.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Sparks}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': December 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Create new articles for Glohm enemies====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal, and per the former proposal as well, which I encourage participants to peruse. (Though, this time, with no multi-option shenanigans.)
#{{User|Sparks}} My preferred choice. Sure it could get repetitive and redundant, but it's worth it to document the abilities of these Glohm enemies.
#{{User|Axii}} Per con Carne (like the last time).
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We give articles to [[Elite Dry Bones|other stronger]] [[Shy Guy R|RPG enemy]] [[Antasma X|and boss variants]], so why should Brothership be any different?
#{{User|Nintendo101}} This may be controversial, but I think this is fine and in-line with our policies. These characters have largely only been referred to by their first names since ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga''. This does not mean Ludwig's full name is not "Ludwig von Koopa" or that it does not see occasional use in marketing and in games - it just means the title of the article is just Ludwig. I personally do not think that is as systematically harmful or erroneous as previous proposals seemed to have suggested. Lots of reference material does this. For example, the name of the {{wp|Mark Twain}} article on Wikipedia is not "Samuel L. Clemens" in any language.
#{{User|Tails777}} They are stronger variants with different stats to their originals, no different from every example Camwoodstock gave. Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Needless to say, there have been a few changes since the last time this was proposed.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. It seems only fair as we clamp down more and more on these elongated page titles.
#{{User|Zootalo}} The Shiny Paper versions of enemies from Paper Jam have their own articles as well; this is no different. Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} Supported once and I'll do it again. Per proposal.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Probably best for overall consistancy with a game like this one.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. I never really understood the main argument against this last time ("the full names still exist", as though that means they should automatically take priority over their more common short counterparts).
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all von Koopa.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} while i don't agree with the de-title-ification that's been going on, if we're going to do it we might as well be consistent with it.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} The fact that there exists an entire category of templates just to circumvent a standard that violates MarioWiki:Naming is concerning, to say the least.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|YoYo}} per all
#{{User|BMfan08}} Per all.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all, I know I opposed this before but I've changed my mind after several similar proposals since then have passed.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per Koopall


====Oppose====
====Include Glohm enemy coverage on their normal counterparts' articles without creating new articles for them====
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} No. Okay, no. I'm trying to make a case for undoing the proposal that shortened the Sonic characters' names. I've got a strong case for Fox McCloud in that not only was his last name mentioned in every Smash game, his [[Costume Mario#92|costume]] in [[Super Mario Maker]] is the "Fox McCloud" costume, not the "Fox" costume. And I know that if this proposal passes, Peach and Daisy are next.


====Comments====
====Comments====
To clarify my position on Daisy, it was not because I thought the proposal was unreasonable. To me, an analogous situation would be drafting a proposal to only change the name of Iggy Koopa's article and none of other Koopalings. Maybe others don't see Peach and Daisy as related to each other as sibling characters like the Koopalings, but that's how I feel at least. I would receive a proposal that included both Peach and Daisy differently. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:31, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|Zootalo}} The Paper Jam shiny enemies are not split, but the Sticker Star ones are. {{Unsigned|Nightwicked Bowser}}
:I reworded that point about the Daisy vs. Peach situation to sound less like a potshot. Sorry. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:34, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
::I thought it was funny :) Just wanted to clarify my position. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:37, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::I appreciate that you took it in good humor, but I've made a point that I'll try and be more careful with the way I word my statements. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:41, September 27, 2024 (EDT)


@SeanWheeler: If Mario Maker costume names were the decider, [[Mr. Resetti]] would just be "Resetti", and indeed, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy would just be Peach and Daisy. But the main thing the Fox page covers isn't a costume in Mario Maker, it's his more common, prominent, and recent Smash appearances, in which the main name used to refer to him is always just "Fox". (Also, Sonic's Mario Maker costume is just called "Sonic", not "Sonic the Hedgehog".) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:03, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
==Removals==
:It's not just the Mario Maker costumes. He's been referred to as "Fox McCloud" in Melee's trophies and Ultimate's spirits, plus in Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 17:22, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
''None at the moment.''
::And he's been referred to as "Fox" in his actual role as a playable character in every single Smash game. As I've repeated countless times in our [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles|previous]] [[Talk:Shadow (character)#Rename to "Shadow"|debates]], this isn't an argument of whether the full name exists, it only matters which name is more common. Please stop cherry-picking the times when the full name was used in profiles and such and acting like that automatically outweighs the more common name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:56, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
:::I feel like these proposals shortening names are meant to take the "common name" part of the naming policy to it's literal conclusion. The article names were fine before they were changed by proposals, and now we're changing very distinctive article names to generic names. That's not good for disambiguation. The shortened names could be used as redirects, but we are discouraged from linking redirects, making me confused why we have redirects at all. I mean, link templates for the Koopalings? In November, I'm going to make a proposal to encourage linking redirects. My proposal to overturn the crossover character naming was only delayed by me not having unlocked the Sonic Character Book at the Secret Shop in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games. Yes, I was going to bank on the full names being used somewhere in the games being enough to outweigh the player names. Are Peach and Daisy are going to lose their princess titles for the sake of following the naming conventions? I think the naming rule should be changed. Problem is, I can't figure out how to word it in a way to have the pages moved back to the names I want. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:55, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
::::This proposal is trying to get rid of those Koopaling templates, though. We have redirects for search purposes, not for linking. And why shouldn't the common name policy be taken to its "literal conclusion"? Are you saying you'd rather we enforced it inconsistently? That we should only enforce it when you personally happen to prefer the common name? We shouldn't ignore official sources just so that we can use the names we prefer. Also (another thing I've repeated endlessly), calling these names "generic" is subjective at best and just false at worst. Nothing about "Larry" makes it inherently a more "generic" name than "Mario" or "Pauline", and if Nintendo is content to use the shorter names to identify the characters, we have no reason not to follow suit. "But Peach and Daisy" is also a bad counterargument when several of the users supporting this proposal also supported the Daisy proposal, myself included. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:07, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Redirects just for search purposes are practically useless when there's autofill and search results. Linking to a redirect would have less bytes then pipelinking wouldn't it? And no, I don't like inconsistent rules either. I'm still trying to figure out my proposal to the naming convention. I don't want the most frequently used names which would just reduce everyone to just their first names or nicknames. Wiki page titles should be more formal than that. But during the Shadow proposal, you have pointed out some awful full names, so giving literally everyone their full names would be out too. And I feel nostalgia for the names the wiki had for years, so I wouldn't want Bowser to be moved to King Bowser Koopa. What would be the best naming convention that would have us move most if not all these characters back to their original page titles? I thought maybe "the longest common-used name" as in the full name that was referenced in most of the characters' appearances, which would keep Peach at Princess Peach (because she hasn't used her Toadstool surname in a long time, and she has been referred to as Princess Peach at least once in most of the Mario games, right?) That would definitely move Fox back to Fox McCloud. But with that rule of naming the characters their fullest name used in the most appearances, that would force us to use the full names of one-time characters like [[Squirps]] becoming {{fake link|Prince Squirp Korogaline Squirpina}}, so that rule wouldn't work out with me either. I don't have that many Mario games, so it would be hard to verify when each name was used in each game. If I go for "best known name," that's probably going to rely too much on bias, so that wouldn't work either. And if I just make a proposal to undo every move in the wiki's history and make it so that every article name is simply the original title, I doubt anyone would be on board if there were more legitimate reasons those pages moved like if some page titles started out misspelled. I've voted to shorten parentheticals, so it would make me a hypocrite to revert all the moves I've supported. This is really hard, especially as we're moving articles on a case-by-case basis when the articles should already be following the naming rules. Instead of the case-by-case basis, we really need to clarify the naming rules and what we mean by the "most common name." If we mean by the given name most frequently said in every game, then maybe the rule should be changed. Tell me, how many games have the Koopalings been referred to as their full names at least once? How many manuals and guides have their full names? They use their first names in playable character data, so how do we count playable character data? I would like to only count the playable character data just once. But how will we count dialogue? If we count every instance in dialogue, would we shorten Diddy Kong to just Diddy? Would Bowser Jr. be called Junior? This is all so complicated. All it shows is that our current naming rules aren't good. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:06, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
::::::In my opinion, I think our approach to article names for characters has been a bit technocratic. I don't think we need a strict, blanketedly applied naming policy is as beneficial as some think, and I really deciding these things on a case by case basis is perfectly fine.
::::::I personally would be in favor of returning the [[Fox]] article to Fox McCloud, purely because the word "fox" alone as plenty of connotations on its own and including the surname is just immediately clarifying that it is the main character from ''Star Fox''. I similarly would feel fine with returning the ''Sonic'' characters to their full names because it is just immediately pretty clarifying what the article's subject is about, as opposed to something else in the ''Mario'' series called a shadow. Some of them had to have clarifications between parentheses attached to the end anyways, which wouldn't have been necessary if we just kept the full names.
::::::Making decisions like that does not have to have ramifications on the names of other character articles. Inconsistency is not inherently bad if it leads to better clarification for readers. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:50, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Inconsistency is bad. Following your logic, we could end up with characters like "Sonic" and "Espio" keeping short names while others like "Shadow the Hedgehog" and "Big the Cat" get their full names, since only the latter share their names with other subjects. And wasn't inconsistency the main reason you didn't want to shorten "Princess Daisy"? Also, why would "Fox" cause clarification problems when he doesn't share that name with anything else on the wiki? Would we just arbitrarily decide which names do and don't need clarification? The best solution to all these problems is to stick to how official sources most commonly handle the names, i.e. the current naming policy (which I don't think needs changing, just enforcing). Also, @SeanWheeler, redirects are not "practically useless", they help significantly with streamlining the search process and helping people find what they're looking for. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:32, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Well, looks like my naming conventions amendment proposal in November is going to have a bunch of options. And yes, Fox could cause clarification problems because that's his species. Sure, we don't have an article on the Fox species but we have articles on [[Dragon]], [[Elephant]], [[Goat]], and used to have pages on [[Talk:Human#Delete page|Human]] and [[Talk:Giraffe]]. Then again, those Dragon, Elephant and Goat pages are now more about enemies than the species. And [[wikipedia:20th Century Fox|20th Century Fox]] would be a bigger Fox name than Fox McCloud. I wouldn't be surprised if someone searched for the company only to end up on Fox McCloud's page. Sonic is also the name of a [[wikipedia:Sonic Drive-In|restaurant]], and is a [[wiktionary:sonic|word]] related to the concept of sound. It really does help clarify things to use the longer names. To take the common name part of the policy too literally, you'd find most characters having just their first names be the most common name. I'd vote to change the wording from "most common" name to "best known name." Yes, that would rely on bias of the users, but I really can't stand these proposals reducing names. At least if the "best known name" was followed instead of the "commonly used name," the move proposals made afterward wouldn't be so much about rule violations in the naming convention but what the wiki finds to be the more popular name for the characters. And of course, fan nicknames and speculation wouldn't count. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 02:36, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::Your suggestion is to ignore official sources in favour of fan preferences (especially when they're your personal preferences), which goes against everything the naming policy and the wiki in general strive for. Besides, it's not like these characters' shortened names are obscure (all the results when I google "Sonic" are about the hedgehog, and I find it a bit hard to believe that "Miles "Tails" Prower" is a more well-known name than "Tails"). Also, who is looking up 20th Century Fox and Sonic Drive-In on the Super Mario Wiki??? [[Wikipedia:Mario (disambiguation)|Mario]] is two films, two TV series and two songs, is it time to rename his page?  {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:06, October 3, 2024 (EDT)


===Overturn the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/55#Delete_Category:User_eo|proposal]] that resulted in the deletion of [[:Category:User eo]] (category for speakers of {{wp|Esperanto}})===
==Changes==
Myself, I don't care about this language, and needless to say, neither do most people on the planet, but I take issue with the proposal that had it removed in the first place for a few reasons.
===Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s)===
*The proposal argues that this language "is not a real language", that "nobody really picked it up", and likens it to the fictional language of Klingon. Despite its status as a constructed language, it is, in fact, very much a real language intended and created to be functional. It has a(n admittedly small) number of speakers across the planet, some of whom may well be potential editors on this wiki for all we know. The comparison to Klingon, which was created with an artistic purpose, is misleading.
''Mario Kart Tour'' has quite the reputation on this wiki in terms of pages, at one time nearly forming the top ten of the largest pages here in terms of bit size. However, what was glossed over was the size of Tour's template, being large enough to hold several templates within itself, and making the page, should the user click on it, almost double in length, more so with the other templates open. Using [[DS DK Pass]] as an example, a page for a race course that doesn't have a lot of information on it making for a relatively quick read, is now nearly half taken up by the monstrously large ''Mario Kart Tour'' template.  
*The proposer [[User talk:Doomhiker#Woah|was outed as an extremist]] (read up on the details at your own risk) who seemingly was planning to have other language-based user categories removed, as he followed up with another [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/55#Delete_Category:User_ka|proposal targeting the Georgian user category]]. The wiki's policies outline that we shouldn't assume bad faith in users, but given the circumstances here, I hope you'll allow me the assumption that this user had ulterior motives in their little curatorial project, namely in altering the wiki ever so slightly according to their outlooks. Proposal failed and the user was banned for their concerning behavior, preventing further such proposals from being made.
 
Now, as you'd expect, the Esperanto user category certainly never saw much use--in fact, [https://web.archive.org/web/20140712133001/http://www.mariowiki.com/Category:User_eo only one user employed it as of 2014] <small>(archive.org)</small> and even then [https://web.archive.org/web/20140711152028/http://www.mariowiki.com/User:Pakkun only listed Esperanto as a second language] <small>(archive.org)</small> (though, the very point of Esperanto was to be an auxillary language between people who don't speak the same native language). That user, who goes by {{user|Pakkun}}, has since taken the category off their page, so you could argue that this proposal lacks a tangible purpose as "User eo" would be dead on arrival should it be recreated.
 
The point of this proposal, however, isn't to recreate this language immediately; it is to negate the proposal that currently prevents its creation if someone ever considers they'd derive some use from it. '''This community should be open to anyone regardless of their cultural background.''' The previous proposal is contrary to that.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Honestly, we would be down for ''more'' Conlangs to have user categories. We can't imagine the overlap of, say, Vötgil speakers to Mario Wiki users is very large, but like, in regards to a strictly English wiki, the Conlang categories in particular are just for-fun categories at the end of the day, and who the hey are we to ''expressly prohibit'' other people's fun? And even in the most generous reading of the events, it still feels like a bit of warped priorities when some categories have been in need of reforms for awhile now <small>(sorry about the Thieves category thing, we're still thinking of that and honestly at this point we wouldn't mind someone else chipping in with that)</small> and haven't gotten them, but we have an entire proposal dedicated to... Deleting a category for Esperanto speakers??? (And for the record, this was back when [[:Category:Canines]] was called Dogs--something something, obligatory mention of [[Penkoon]].)
#{{User|Shadow2}} We DID this? wtf??
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Arend}} With the provided context, something about Trig Jegman's proposals rubs me the wrong way. If it's true that he was trying to gradually remove other languages, where would he stop? He stated that Esperanto and Gregorian are languages not supported by Nintendo (a weak argument IMO, as Nintendo =/= this wiki), and not widely spoken, so would he first try to get all small-spoken languages removed? Would he eventually try to get larger languages removed just because Nintendo doesn't support these languages? Would he eventually go even further and get even languages that ''are'' supported by Nintendo removed because they're not as widely spoken as other languages? Would he eventually make it so that English is the ''only'' language remaining? Would he then remove that category too because if that's the only language category for users, then what's the point of keeping it? Or worse, is this a ploy to recognize who is native to other languages and would he try to get non-English users banned so only English-speaking users have access to the wiki (and ''then'' remove the English category)? ...Uh...fearmongering aside, per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} No harm having it if people want to use it.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} The more the Marior. That older proposal was dumb.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} I'm not a fan of banning users for off-site drama, especially when it's political. But if his proposal was bigoted, then maybe it should be overturned.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all, especially Sean. This proposal was asinine at best, in retrospect, and harmful at worst. And that's coming from a man who doesn't have full context as to what happened.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. That category never hurt nobody.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
 
====Oppose====
 
====Comments====
The real question is if we can have a Klingon category (as [[User:Alex95|a certain other editor who is no longer with us due to concerning behavior]] mentioned on that proposal). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:11, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:Up for debate whether user categories can have some basis in fiction. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:16, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:We think that Conlangs in general should just be allowed, just because it both feels really, really weird to try to police ''what'' Conlangs "count" as languages, and because the idea of focusing even more proposals on such a for-fun topic feels.... A little too much, when that effort is best used elsewhere. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:14, September 28, 2024 (EDT)


<s>We should be open for Inklingese and Smurf.</s> {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:24, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
A total of four sub templates exist within the ''Mario Kart Tour'' template: Characters (and their skins), Vehicle Parts, Courses, and Other (miscellaneous). For example, if the Courses template were split off and applied to DS DK Pass' page, it would make for a much more palatable experience for those looking for courses found in ''Tour'', rather than making the reader scroll for a centuries and looking for it amongst a sea of numerous skins and kart parts.
:<s>Per Arend.</s> --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:50, September 30, 2024 (EDT)


===Lower the requirement for a disambiguation page from 5 to 4===
'''Proposer''': {{User|MightyMario}}<br>
As of now, the requirement for a disambiguation page's creation is five pages:
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT
:''"If there are five or more pages which could be reasonably associated with a given name, then a disambiguation page must be created"'' ([[MarioWiki:Naming]])
This rule feels needlessly restrictive, considering the amount of clutter links make at the very top of the page. "For a minigame in the ''WarioWare'' series, see X. For an object in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' found in the Luncheon Kingdom, see Y. For an underwater enemy from...", you get the idea. If this proposal passes, the threshold on MarioWiki:Naming will be lowered from 5 to 4.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Axii}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Axii}} ^
#{{User|MightyMario}} I heartily endorse this proposal.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} One or two other articles are fine, but having three separate articles in the <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> template at the top of the page is the point where a disambiguation page is ideal.
#{{User|Tails777}} I kinda agree with this. I feel this would be a bit more organized too, so people don't have to scroll through loads of characters, karts and other things just to find the tracks section. I have found myself on numerous occasions jumping from track articles and with ''Tour's'' template, it was rather irritating searching through massive sections of characters and tours just to find tracks. I support this idea.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} We don't need to clutter the {{tem|About}} template.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} We've split navigation templates for [[Template:NSMBW levels|much less]], this makes sense for the sheer amount of content in the game.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} A navigation template that buries content in an area larger than an entire computer screen defeats the purpose.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Frankly, I'd support bringing the requirement as low as 3. Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Agreed with all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|Dark Jonathan}} I didn't know Tour templates gave so many problems, but hey, that's a good proposal.
#{{User|BMfan08}} I was just thinking about this the other day when I was changing tense on tour articles. It's definitely a lot to take in, and it's also overlooked because people don't put into a template quite as much as they do a page. I agree with this idea.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Per all.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} This will make page-by-page navigation of MKT articles more efficient or convenient. Supporting.
#{{User|Mario}} The size of this nav template would make Wario proud, but I'm sure this complaint has already been forwarded to a lot of aspects of Mario Kart Tour content on this wiki.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====


====Comments====
====Comments====
Do you have any examples of how many subjects would be affected by this change? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 10:52, September 29, 2024 (EDT)
I think alternatively, they could be given different collapsible sections, like we do with the galleries template. But I agree it is overwhelmingly enormous. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:58, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:I don't think there's an easy way to tell, but I can't imagine it being too many. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 12:05, September 29, 2024 (EDT)


===Shorten the disambiguation identifier for ''Yoshi's Island'' pages with the subtitle only - take two===
We're talking about the navigation template at the bottom of these pages, right? Because that's the only Tour-related template on the DS DK Pass article (subpages notwithstanding) and it's indeed quite huge. If we do split it off into several subtemplates, I suppose it'd be comparable to various levels from specific platformer titles having a navbox template for themselves instead of sharing a primary nabvox template with the rest of that game's content (e.g. [[Super Bell Hill]] featuring {{tem|SM3DW levels}} instead of {{tem|SM3DW}}); or the existence of various navigation templates for the various microgames or minigames in specific ''WarioWare'' or ''Mario Party'' title. So while it's atypical for us to split ''Mario Kart''-specific nav templates, it's not unheard of for us to split off nav templates in the first place. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:04, November 10, 2024 (EST)
Last season, I had to cancel [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Yoshi's Island pages|my last proposal]] since I was caught plagiarizing [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Donkey Kong Country 2 and Donkey Kong Country 3 pages|someone else's proposal]]. This time, I've come up with another proposal that is not plagiarized.


Take the "Choose a Game" screen and the main game's title screen in ''Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3'' for example. As you see, the logo for the main game on both screens ONLY reads ''Yoshi's Island'', not ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''.
===Tag images of bind-posing models for reuploading===
It's been two years since [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Do not use t-posing models as infobox images|the previous proposal]] had passed. Now let's talk about tagging images of bind-posing models for reuploading. Take [https://www.models-resource.com/resources/big_icons/4/3950.png?updated=1673644745 this image] for example. As you can see, this image is a bind-posing model. Once this proposal passes, we'll be able to tag every bind-posing model with this:


The following pages will be affected:
{{tem|image-quality|Bind-posing model; should be replaced with a rendered game model}}


{| class="wikitable"
That way, if a bind-posing model is reuploaded as a rendered game model that serves as a replacement, we'll be able to reuse it as an infobox image.
! Current name
! Will be moved to
|-
| [[Fuzzy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|Fuzzy (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|Fuzzy (''Yoshi's Island'')|Fuzzy (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[King Bowser's Castle (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|King Bowser's Castle (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|King Bowser's Castle (''Yoshi's Island'')|King Bowser's Castle (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[Magnifying Glass (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|Magnifying Glass (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|Magnifying Glass (''Yoshi's Island'')|Magnifying Glass (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[Spiked Fun Guy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|Spiked Fun Guy (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|Spiked Fun Guy (''Yoshi's Island'')|Spiked Fun Guy (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 1 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 1 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 1 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 1 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 2 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 2 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 2 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 2 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 3 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 3 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 3 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 3 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 4 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 4 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 4 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 4 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 5 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 5 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 5 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 5 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 6 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 6 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 6 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 6 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|}
 
Once this proposal passes, we'll be able to use the shorter disambiguation identifier with ONLY the subtitle for the ''Yoshi's Island'' pages.


'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 10, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': November 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support (''Yoshi's Island'')====
====Support====
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
<s>#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Like I said in the other proposal, T-poses are generally not how characters are supposed to look. If [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots|this]] is any indication, the wiki should favor game accuracy in images.</s>


====Oppose (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think it is great when users replace images of bind-posed (or "t-posed") models with organically rendered ones. It is a practice I personally encourage and welcome. However, I do think there [[:File:PiantissimoUnmasked.png|can be educational and illustrative purposes to bind-posed models]], and I think a blanket rule would put unnecessary pressure on the users of this site to render models when a bind-posed one can be more than serviceable, and may even discourage the cataloging of 3D assets in the future if a user cannot render them. Rendering models is a very time-consuming process, and I think it is healthier to just allow users to replace the bind-posed images we have ''if'' they can. Not require them to. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} this seems better handled on a case-by-case basis rather than a full sweep
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, a hard rule isn't necessary here.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Nintendo101. Given there ''are'' scenarios where bind-posed/T-posed models are actually more illustrative than properly rigged alternatives, we should probably handle these on a case-by-case basis.
#{{User|Mario}} Tag them if they're bad quality, not because they're t-posed.


====Comments====
====Comments====
Wording should be changed to "bind pose" since not all characters are T-posed, especially non-bipeds ([https://www.models-resource.com/resources/big_icons/4/3950.png?updated=1673644745 like Yoshi from Super Smash Bros. Melee or Brawl], Wiggler, Buzzy Beetles, Piranha Plants, and more) and A-pose exists as a default pose too. In addition, models technically aren't "t-posing", they're modeled this way before animations and a rig are applied to them, the wording makes them look like they're animating when they're not. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:36, November 15, 2024 (EST)
Does this proposal advocate replacing these ripped models with ones that are posed from a screenshot or posed in a 3d program with ripped animation files? Not all models are ripped with animations, so it's a bit of a task to undertake if you really want models with animations AND a rig (let's not get started in lighting, which is a separate skillset that's demanded from renderers; not many people get the lighting very good, no offense!); a chunk of models tend to not have a rig, much less an animation. Additionally, some t-posed models are great to use when comparing models or viewing models ''as they are''. [[:File:MLNPC.png]] is an example where it's easy to compare the proportions of Mario, PC Luigi, and NPC Luigi. Sure, you can probably put them all in a orthographic lineup in the same keyframe of a shared animation, but due to the arms, legs, spine, and head all straightened out, it's better to illustrate in T-pose imo. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:00, November 15, 2024 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 11:23, November 22, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Sunday, November 24th, 01:27 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. While only autoconfirmed users can comment on proposals, anyone is free to comment on talk page proposals.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal or talk page proposal passes, it is added to the corresponding list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 14 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 3, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Remove identifiers for Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf) and Ike (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!), Starluxe (ended November 21, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)
Merge Spiked Thwomp with Thwomp, Blinker (ended November 2, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Create articles for "Ashita ni Nattara" and "Banana Tengoku" or list them in List of Donkey Kong Country (television series) songs, Starluxe (ended November 23, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Do not surround song titles with quotes

This is a change to this section of our Manual of Style. Currently, our policy is to surround song titles with quotation marks whenever they appear. However. We are a Mario wiki, and the Mario series overwhelmingly does not do this.

The comparison arises to italics, but I feel there's quite a difference between that (an effect applied to text) and the inclusion of punctuation marks, which are text in and of themselves. Not to mention, unlike italics, which would require special programming to implement, quote marks are supported by anything that supports English text, meaning it's not a question of technical limitations — every game that names its songs is perfectly capable of listing them inside quotation marks, and yet they make the choice not to.

As such, surrounding song titles in quotes is questionable as adherence to an unofficial naming scheme over the original one. Not to mention the effects this can have on lists of song titles — their inclusion on Template:DDRMM fluffs up the width of the song section by the width of several song titles.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to mention how inconsistently these quote marks are applied across the wiki already — many entries in Category:Music do not use them in their article, none of the lists of songs from the shows or of WarioWare DIY records use them, Starring Wario! and only Starring Wario has had its article title changed to have the quotes. I take this to mean the rule is not serving the wiki as it stands.

The one exception to everything I've mentioned thus far is Paper Mario: The Origami King's music discs: "Deep, Deep Vibes", "Heartbeat Skipper", "M-A-X Power!", and "Thrills at Night". These are the only time the names of songs are formatted this way (possibly due to the items being CDs of the songs and not the songs themselves). Therefore, these will be the only exception if this proposal passes, and will keep their quote marks.

To circle back around to my original point: I think the nail in the coffin for displaying music this way is Nintendo Music. This application, specifically meant to play music, does not surround their names with quote marks. And yet this article surrounds them in quotes anyway, stringently adhering to our unofficial way of formatting these over the way Nintendo Music actually formats them. It's almost lying, frankly.

So, our options:

  • Option 1: Exclude quote marks from song titles in all cases. Our manual of style will remove the mention of song titles from the section of italicizing titles. Just for clarity, this excludes Origami King's CDs.
  • Option 2: Keep quote marks when song titles are used in a sentence, but exclude them from standalone appearances of the title. Such standalone appearances would include article titles, navboxes, infoboxes, track listings, and table entries. Just for clarity, this option, too, excludes Origami King's CDs.
  • Option 3: Do nothing. I guess this option includes Origami King's CDs.

Proposer:: Ahemtoday (talk)
Deadline: November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) My primary choice. I've firmly laid out my reasons why here.
  2. Jdtendo (talk) I prefer to think of each music as a work in its own right rather than a part of some "greater whole". Jump Up, Super Star! is more than just a piece of Super Mario Odyssey's OST. Therefore, song titles should be italicized like any other work and not be in quotation marks as if they were merely chapters.
  3. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, and there's precedent for following Nintendo's official formatting in spite of usual conventions. The inconsistencies described in the proposal ought to be fixed regardless of the outcome, though.
  4. Biggestman (talk) While I to a degree understand the entire thing with the songs simply being a part of a greater thing, that isn't really fair when I would make an argument some of these songs are a larger part of the series' history than those "greater" things. For example music from Yoshi's Story is still used relatively often to this very day, but Yoshi's Story as a whole is just kinda there. Per all, too.

Option 2

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) I will settle for this — part of my ire toward the quotemarks is that I find them highly unsuitable for these particular usages.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Secondary option, per my comment below in Option 3.

Option 3

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a greater whole (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in The Color of Water. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of Resident Alien. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the Super Mario franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "Gusty Garden Galaxy" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and Gusty Garden Galaxy is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) per N101. quotation marks are a writing convention! most mario games also don't have italic titles, but we italicize them anyways because it's a formal writing convention that makes sense
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Strong oppose, per all. This is a well-recognized writing convention, the fact that Nintendo doesn't typically follow it within their products is irrelevant.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Nintendo101. These quotes are here for a reason, no matter how remote it may seem.
  5. Ray Trace (talk) Quoting songs is from the manual of style itself, it's the same reason we italicize game titles. I would go even further and quote song titles as a display title like I did in "Starring Wario!"
  6. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  7. Axii (talk) Per all.
  8. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - "Because game writing" is what leads to wikis encouraging jokey sarcastic writing, which I'm pretty sure is not the direction we want to go.

Comments

If this passes, how would it affect coverage of non-Mario music? Our only options are either to have two standards, or ignore established convention based on what Nintendo does for media they had no hand in actually producing. Neither seems ideal to me. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:24, November 10, 2024 (EST)

We'd treat non-Mario music the same as Mario music. Established convention doesn't mean much when we're always saying on this page that we're not other wikis and we don't necessarily need to do things the way other wikis do them. Ahemtoday (talk) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I don't think anyone is advocating to hold onto a convention just for the sake of it. Rather, that we should hold onto the convention because it is useful and the proposal doesn't provide persuasive reasons to abandon that usage, or at least it does not for me. - Nintendo101 (talk) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)

In addition, I wouldn't use applications such as Nintendo Music as proof that we shouldn't abide by formatting either. Neither music metadata nor files themselves quote song names, neither does Spotify nor Amazon Music. Yet Wikipedia still does because that's how it's standardized in writing articles. In addition, you pointed out how "Starring Wario!" is the outlier as your point, I've only just started working on those articles mate. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 21:01, November 10, 2024 (EST)

Even Wikipedia doesn't use the quotes in article titles though. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:17, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I would support an option that called for just removing the quotation marks in the header for articles (as done here, which should be compared to here). This is not uncommon in written books on music. But there currently is no voting option to do just that. - Nintendo101 (talk) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)

@Ray Trace I'm aware it's in the manual of style. That's why the proposal is about changing the manual of style. Ahemtoday (talk) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)

I'm not talking about the wiki's manual style. I'm talking about general guidelines especially MLA BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 15:41, November 11, 2024 (EST)
If it's not our manual of style, then there's no reason for us to care about it because we don't use it. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:04, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Our manual of style is based on this manual of style. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 18:11, November 11, 2024 (EST)
If it's only based on it, then it isn't it. The manual of style is ours, so this quote mark convention has to survive on its own merits, not just by virtue of being in someone else's manual of style. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:22, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Not using general formatting standard guidelines solely because "we shouldn't just because we're not them" is not a good argument. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 18:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Well, then — Nintendo doesn't do this either, so there's no reason for this wiki to pretend like they do. That's been my argument this whole time. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)
The main difference is that they're a video game, and they're inherently informal in their presentation. They're not trying to write things and bios formally, they're trying to present writing to players, so formatting like italicizing game titles is optional, because that's what it's set out to do. On the other hand, we're an encyclopedia, our writing formatting is far more similar to Wikipedia which observes these things and MLA writing guidelines, and how to format sourcing, and it's something we should emulate over a video game's script. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 18:47, November 11, 2024 (EST)
@Ahemtoday I don't think that is the strong argument you think it is, because almost no piece of media where it has become conventional to include quotation marks include them themselves. They are not on the back of most albums, books, or title cards for television shows. But they are all still presented with quotes arounf them in reference material like Wikipedia and physical books. What makes the Nintendo music we cover here so different that warrants unique treatment? - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:53, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Nintendo doesn't always italicize game titles either, this site does. To be honest, though, I'm not sure how consistently this wiki observes MLA. There's some superficial basis in it (mostly coming off of Wikipedia's style guide, which is sprinkled with some MLA), what with the titles of whole works being written in italics and those of constituent parts of a work being surrounded by quotes, yet the manner in which citations are formatted, arguably a priority of any academic style guide, seems rather peculiar to Wikipedia's house style. Take any citation formatted using the {{cite}} template on this wiki and compare it to how MLA proposes it is done (owl.purdue.edu). There's also been at least one attempt at explicitly adopting a standard purveyed by MLA that got shot down. Not to digress too much, I just wanted to point out that MLA is not currently as pervasive here as it's made out to be and can't be appealed to solely because of a few instances that (happen to) observe it. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:20, November 11, 2024 (EST), edited 19:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I am personally forgiving on how we structure citations in that template, because many academic journals don't adopt the MLA structure either. Everyone does something a little different from one another. The information included in a citation is more important than how it is organized, and things like ISBN are pretty helpful for an online reference like Super Mario Wiki.
But I also don't believe in supporting conventions just for the sake of them being conventions. I'd rather support them if they are beneficial. What are your thoughts on what I said in my vote above? - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:33, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I cannot argue with your vote. If a writing standard promoted by outside guides can harmonize with the needs of Mario Wiki, there's no reason not to adopt it. Quotation marks serve their purpose well in this case. so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 20:10, November 11, 2024 (EST)
Cool! I was just curious. I value your perspective. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:14, November 11, 2024 (EST)

I'm realizing I haven't given my full thoughts on @Nintendo101's vote yet. I agree that there are benefits to formatting song titles in this way (particularly in sentences, which is why I have the option to keep the quote marks exclusively in sentences) — but this formatting scheme misrepresents how the actual works in question are referred to by official media. I had to ask a friend who had Nintendo Music to find out whether or not the app displayed song titles in quotes, because I couldn't trust this wiki to tell me — and, like I said, Nintendo Music doesn't. Yet this article writes the song names as if it does, because apparently this convention is more important than this kind of information. I know this is a minor piece of information, but this formatting convention causes me to be unable to trust the wiki about it. No benefit can counterbalance that. Ahemtoday (talk) 20:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)

I am sorry that you felt mislead, but are you sure it is not because you were unfamiliar with this being a convention for music pieces in the first place? - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:12, November 12, 2024 (EST)
I was well familiar with the convention and how this wiki used it at the time, which is why I knew to ask a friend instead of taking the wiki's word for it. I take such a hardline stance against it not because this untrustworthiness has personally wronged me, but because untrustworthiness is a failure of the wiki on principle. Ahemtoday (talk) 00:02, November 13, 2024 (EST)
I am sorry, I was not referring to Super Mario Wiki in isolation. I was referring to the convention at large. In books and articles on music, regardless of topic, individual pieces are placed within quotation marks. I know I myself first learned one is supposed to put quotation marks around music titles while I was taking English class in middle school. So while I am sympathetic that this bothered you, I do not agree it is misleading. Maybe the issue lies with folks who do not have a lot of experience reading or writing about music. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:05, November 13, 2024 (EST)
Whether or not readers are familiar with the convention doesn't change the fact that the convention is not reflective of what is being talked about. The only reason wiki readers know "Thrills at Night" and its ilk are actually surrounded in quotes officially is because we haven't been thorough in applying this convention. If we did, then the distinction would vanish completely, because the wiki currently considers adhering to this guideline more important than this kind of information. You can't pin that on readers being unfamiliar. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:17, November 13, 2024 (EST)
I have contacted the director of the Purdue OWL at Purdue University to ask them how one should cite music tracks that already has quotation marks rendered in their name. However, to be honest, I am still not really sure what the issue here is. How are the quotation marks any different from italicization of video games and albums? The name Paper Mario: The Origami King is not displayed anywhere in Nintendo's official material italicized, but we do it for the same reasons one puts quotation marks around music tracks - because it is a useful MLA convention. For music, it is unclear to me on what is being miscommunicated or lost when they are accurately displayed between quotation marks, especially since articles for "Thrills at Night" and other tracks are accompanied with screenshots that show how they are rendered in-game. Is this not sufficient? - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
It is not sufficient. To begin with, not every use of song titles is accompanied by images showing that the music titles are formatted without quotes — the majority of articles in Category:Sound tests do not have such images. (Not to mention that to use these images to establish the formatting of every song title in a given game would require a comically excessive amount of images.) Furthermore, even if they did, this information would be entirely invisible to users of screen readers, raising accessibility concerns. This information can't be conveyed by images alone. Ahemtoday (talk) 15:14, November 14, 2024 (EST)
Couldn't it just be clarified in the article itself that a piece of music is displayed with quotations mark around it? It is not a very common thing to do. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:22, November 14, 2024 (EST)
Writing in an explicit note clarifying that this time the article is actually reflective of how the music is referred to officially is a much more convoluted way of going about this compared to just referring to them in the official way to begin with. Ahemtoday (talk) 16:50, November 14, 2024 (EST)

Biggestman: The formatting of quotes in songs aren't discussed from a cultural relevancy angle, they're in context of being part of an album. It's the same reason short poetry gets quotes, but novels get italicized, we'd quote "The Raven" but still italicize The Day My Butt Went Psycho. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 21:40, November 15, 2024 (EST)

Add identifiers to near-identical titles

Current MarioWiki writing guidelines state that articles with shared titles recieve an identifier to disambiguate between them (see: Mark (Mario Tennis series) and Mark (NES Open Tournament Golf)). However, this currently relies on the articles sharing an identical, character-by-character name. This means Color coin (Super Mario Run) and Colored coin (Wario Land 3) do not recieve identifiers, despite sharing functionally identical titles. Other sets of articles with the same dilemma include Secret Course 1 (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins) and Secret Course 01 (Super Mario Run), Spyguy (Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis) and Spy Guy (Paper Mario), and Rollin' Down the River (Yoshi's Woolly World) and Rolling Down the River (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!).

This proposal aims to amend MarioWiki:Naming to consider near-identical titles like these as "shared titles", and thus qualify for recieving an identifier according to the established criteria. This is already applied in some articles, but this proposal aims to formalize it as part of the naming rules.

Note that this proposal only covers names that are semantically identical, and only differ in formatting or minor word choices. Buzzar and Buzzer have extremely similar names, but they aren't semantically identical. Balloon Boo and Boo Balloon are extremely similar as well, but the word order sets them apart.

Edit: Per Hewer's question and my comment below, I'd like to point out MarioWiki already does this sometimes. Pairs of near-identical names with identifiers include Family Basic (microgame) and Family BASIC (as ruled by a proposal), Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise) and Hot-air balloon, Finish line (object) and Finish Line (microgame), and Avalanche (obstacle) and both Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix) and Avalanche! (Mario Party 4). If this proposal doesn't pass, all of these would get their identifiers removed.

Proposer: EvieMaybe (talk)
Deadline: November 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. EvieMaybe (talk) per.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. Altendo (talk) I don't see a need for this. If the names are similar, tophats containing the other pages can be placed on the pages with similar names. Identifiers are used to identify subjects with identical names, not similar names.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per Altendo, this is what Template:Distinguish is for. We have to use identifiers for identical titles because the wiki can't have multiple pages with the same title, but that limitation doesn't exist if the titles are just similar. This would make the titles longer than they need to be, and I could also see this leading to disagreements about what's similar enough to count, if the examples are anything to go by. Easier to stick to the objectivity of only giving identical names identifiers. The proposal also doesn't specify what the "some articles" are where this has already been done, but I'm assuming they should be changed.
  3. Ray Trace (talk) Per Hewer.
  4. Dine2017 (talk) Per Hewer & I'd like to see the use of identifier kept to a minimum because it simplifies typing (URL, wikicode, etc.)
  5. SeanWheeler (talk) Per Hewer. No need to extend the title just because of a couple letter difference. The identifiers are there for identical titles because it's impossible for wikipages to have the same name.
  6. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per Hewer. Making this change would only cause more confusion, not less.

Comments

I'm not sure why this is a problem in the first place, can you please elaborate? --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)

i just find it a bit unreasonable to expect people to remember the difference between two names that are identical in all but formatting, or essentially irrelevant word choice differences (in the case of Color coin and Colored coin, which have also been). this is especially true while editing; i had to verify whether Secret Course 1 was the SML2 one or the SMR one when writing the Secret exit article. without resorting to a literal, robotic interpretation of the rules, all of the articles i mentioned have functionally "the same name" as their pair, and there is precedent for adding identifiers to article names like these. Family Basic (microgame) recieved a differentiatior because a mere capitalization difference from Family BASIC was deemed unreasonable. folks in the MarioWiki Discord server agreed with me when i asked if i should rename Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise) (previously just "Hot Air Balloon", with no hyphen and Air capitalized) to differentiate it from Hot-air balloon. Avalanche (obstacle) has an identifier to separate it from Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix) and Avalanche! (Mario Party 4), even though both of them have exclamation marks. Finish line (object) and Finish Line (microgame) get identifiers, even though they're capitalized differently. this is something we already do, the aim here is just to formalize it. EvieMaybe (talk) 14:51, November 11, 2024 (EST)
This proposal passing wouldn't mean you no longer have to check whether it's Secret Course 1 or 01, it'd just mean you now have to type an unnecessary identifier and pipe link it as well. I'd say it's different for finish line and Family BASIC where the only difference between titles is casing, as the search function on the wiki is case insensitive (and also, that proposal made Family Basic a redirect to Family BASIC, so an identifier is still needed to distinguish from that). But in the other cases, we don't need the identifier. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:49, November 11, 2024 (EST)

New features

Create a category for "catch-all articles"

By "catch-all article" (tentative term; please suggest names) I mean those that describe elements that are not related, but share an article because they boil down to the same generic, often real world object. Many of them fit what the guidelines call a "generic subject". Examples of this kind of article are:

They may also boil down to a similar fictional basic concept, which are their own distinct thing, despite all of them taking a similar form:

Compare subjects to which this category would not apply, like ? Block or P-Switch, where every reappearance of the subject is really a deliberate revisitation of a specific concept that already existed.

This category would be applied to articles on concrete subjects only (most of which, if not all, would be objects).

Proposer: Bro Hammer (talk)
Deadline: November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Bro Hammer (talk) My proposal.

Oppose

  1. Hewer (talk) I don't see how such a category would be useful, and I don't like that it's pretty subjective and is based on a trait shared by the articles rather than the objects themselves. Even if there was value in distinguishing these pages, I don't think a category like this is the way to do it.
  2. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Is History of Mario a catch-all article because it covers both a fictional character and Bob Hoskins? We would have to have that sort of debate for too many articles to count. This is too subjective and doesn't really accomplish anything.
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) Unnecessary, and the word "generic" alone is unclear whether it goes by the definition of real-life or Super Mario.
  4. Arend (talk) Honestly, the inclusion of fictional items like Poison Mushroom, ! Block and ? Panel would make it more confusing for me what a "catch-all article" is supposed to be; if it's supposed to be about generic subjects, then their inclusion would definitely muddy the concept quite a bit. Not to mention that the term "catch-all article" isn't clear enough as it is.

Comments

My gut reaction is that I disagree that the Poison Mushroom and Lift articles encompass generic subjects. They are supported as discrete in the paratext for these games. But even if narrowed to articles I agree are generic, it is not inherently clear to me what the benefit of having a "catch-all category" would be. My general view is that there are quite a few subjects that we consider to be generic which really are not. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:45, November 10, 2024 (EST)

What would be some subjects you don't consider generic? My case for the Lift is that it's an article that encompasses almost all types of flat, moving platforms (a basic platforming game object), many even with their own distinct names; I believe you could even argue for some of the versions to get their own articles. And yeah, I agree that there's no huge benefit to having this category, as it would be there mostly for the sake of acknowledgement that "this article does not describe the history of a single idea, but it's instead an aggregation of the histories of various ideas that fit under this umbrella". Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 16:25, November 10, 2024 (EST)

Create articles for Glohm enemies or merge them with their normal counterparts

I'm currently contributing to Mario & Luigi: Brothership content, and I'm currently creating articles for enemies in the game. It has been brought to my attention that Glohm enemies are basically stronger versions of preexisting enemies, although they have unique characteristics.

This proposal aims to determine whether or not Glohm enemies get their own articles. So, there are two choices for when Glohm enemy coverage eventually occurs:

1. Glohm enemies get their own articles. They get their own dedicated pages.

2. Glohm enemy coverage is limited to the articles for their normal counterparts. This means all Glohm related information for them is explained for the normal versions of the enemies.

Let's see what happens!

Proposer: Sparks (talk)
Deadline: December 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Create new articles for Glohm enemies

  1. Sparks (talk) My preferred choice. Sure it could get repetitive and redundant, but it's worth it to document the abilities of these Glohm enemies.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) We give articles to other stronger RPG enemy and boss variants, so why should Brothership be any different?
  3. Tails777 (talk) They are stronger variants with different stats to their originals, no different from every example Camwoodstock gave. Per proposal.
  4. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
  5. Zootalo (talk) The Shiny Paper versions of enemies from Paper Jam have their own articles as well; this is no different. Per all.
  6. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Probably best for overall consistancy with a game like this one.
  7. Technetium (talk) Per all.

Include Glohm enemy coverage on their normal counterparts' articles without creating new articles for them

Comments

@Zootalo The Paper Jam shiny enemies are not split, but the Sticker Star ones are.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nightwicked Bowser (talk).

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s)

Mario Kart Tour has quite the reputation on this wiki in terms of pages, at one time nearly forming the top ten of the largest pages here in terms of bit size. However, what was glossed over was the size of Tour's template, being large enough to hold several templates within itself, and making the page, should the user click on it, almost double in length, more so with the other templates open. Using DS DK Pass as an example, a page for a race course that doesn't have a lot of information on it making for a relatively quick read, is now nearly half taken up by the monstrously large Mario Kart Tour template.

A total of four sub templates exist within the Mario Kart Tour template: Characters (and their skins), Vehicle Parts, Courses, and Other (miscellaneous). For example, if the Courses template were split off and applied to DS DK Pass' page, it would make for a much more palatable experience for those looking for courses found in Tour, rather than making the reader scroll for a centuries and looking for it amongst a sea of numerous skins and kart parts.

Proposer: MightyMario (talk)
Deadline: November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. MightyMario (talk) I heartily endorse this proposal.
  2. Tails777 (talk) I kinda agree with this. I feel this would be a bit more organized too, so people don't have to scroll through loads of characters, karts and other things just to find the tracks section. I have found myself on numerous occasions jumping from track articles and with Tour's template, it was rather irritating searching through massive sections of characters and tours just to find tracks. I support this idea.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) We've split navigation templates for much less, this makes sense for the sheer amount of content in the game.
  4. ThePowerPlayer (talk) A navigation template that buries content in an area larger than an entire computer screen defeats the purpose.
  5. Super Mario RPG (talk) Agreed with all.
  6. EvieMaybe (talk) per all
  7. Dark Jonathan (talk) I didn't know Tour templates gave so many problems, but hey, that's a good proposal.
  8. BMfan08 (talk) I was just thinking about this the other day when I was changing tense on tour articles. It's definitely a lot to take in, and it's also overlooked because people don't put into a template quite as much as they do a page. I agree with this idea.
  9. SeanWheeler (talk) Per all.
  10. PnnyCrygr (talk) This will make page-by-page navigation of MKT articles more efficient or convenient. Supporting.
  11. Mario (talk) The size of this nav template would make Wario proud, but I'm sure this complaint has already been forwarded to a lot of aspects of Mario Kart Tour content on this wiki.

Oppose

Comments

I think alternatively, they could be given different collapsible sections, like we do with the galleries template. But I agree it is overwhelmingly enormous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:58, November 10, 2024 (EST)

We're talking about the navigation template at the bottom of these pages, right? Because that's the only Tour-related template on the DS DK Pass article (subpages notwithstanding) and it's indeed quite huge. If we do split it off into several subtemplates, I suppose it'd be comparable to various levels from specific platformer titles having a navbox template for themselves instead of sharing a primary nabvox template with the rest of that game's content (e.g. Super Bell Hill featuring {{SM3DW levels}} instead of {{SM3DW}}); or the existence of various navigation templates for the various microgames or minigames in specific WarioWare or Mario Party title. So while it's atypical for us to split Mario Kart-specific nav templates, it's not unheard of for us to split off nav templates in the first place. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 17:04, November 10, 2024 (EST)

Tag images of bind-posing models for reuploading

It's been two years since the previous proposal had passed. Now let's talk about tagging images of bind-posing models for reuploading. Take this image for example. As you can see, this image is a bind-posing model. Once this proposal passes, we'll be able to tag every bind-posing model with this:

{{image-quality|Bind-posing model; should be replaced with a rendered game model}}

That way, if a bind-posing model is reuploaded as a rendered game model that serves as a replacement, we'll be able to reuse it as an infobox image.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: November 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

#ThePowerPlayer (talk) Like I said in the other proposal, T-poses are generally not how characters are supposed to look. If this is any indication, the wiki should favor game accuracy in images.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) I think it is great when users replace images of bind-posed (or "t-posed") models with organically rendered ones. It is a practice I personally encourage and welcome. However, I do think there can be educational and illustrative purposes to bind-posed models, and I think a blanket rule would put unnecessary pressure on the users of this site to render models when a bind-posed one can be more than serviceable, and may even discourage the cataloging of 3D assets in the future if a user cannot render them. Rendering models is a very time-consuming process, and I think it is healthier to just allow users to replace the bind-posed images we have if they can. Not require them to. Perfection is the enemy of the good.
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) this seems better handled on a case-by-case basis rather than a full sweep
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
  4. Hewer (talk) Per all, a hard rule isn't necessary here.
  5. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Nintendo101. Given there are scenarios where bind-posed/T-posed models are actually more illustrative than properly rigged alternatives, we should probably handle these on a case-by-case basis.
  7. Mario (talk) Tag them if they're bad quality, not because they're t-posed.

Comments

Wording should be changed to "bind pose" since not all characters are T-posed, especially non-bipeds (like Yoshi from Super Smash Bros. Melee or Brawl, Wiggler, Buzzy Beetles, Piranha Plants, and more) and A-pose exists as a default pose too. In addition, models technically aren't "t-posing", they're modeled this way before animations and a rig are applied to them, the wording makes them look like they're animating when they're not. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:36, November 15, 2024 (EST)

Does this proposal advocate replacing these ripped models with ones that are posed from a screenshot or posed in a 3d program with ripped animation files? Not all models are ripped with animations, so it's a bit of a task to undertake if you really want models with animations AND a rig (let's not get started in lighting, which is a separate skillset that's demanded from renderers; not many people get the lighting very good, no offense!); a chunk of models tend to not have a rig, much less an animation. Additionally, some t-posed models are great to use when comparing models or viewing models as they are. File:MLNPC.png is an example where it's easy to compare the proportions of Mario, PC Luigi, and NPC Luigi. Sure, you can probably put them all in a orthographic lineup in the same keyframe of a shared animation, but due to the arms, legs, spine, and head all straightened out, it's better to illustrate in T-pose imo. Icon showing how many lives Mario has left. From Super Mario 64 DS. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:00, November 15, 2024 (EST)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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