===Consider Super Smash Bros. series titles for recurring themes low-priority===
Something I noticed late yesterday was that the page for "Flower Fields BGM" from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (Or just Yoshi's Island from now on for simplicity) is still titled [[Yoshi's Island (theme)]], even after Nintendo Music dropped, and then I realised that some other song titles (Most notably [[Obstacle Course]], also from Yoshi's Island) just don't make a lot of sense. Then I feel it's important to note that even though this is a Mario Wiki (What?!?!?!? Huh!?!?!?) we should also take a look at the Super Smash Bros. titles for themes from other series, with the biggest example I can think of being "Meta Knight's Revenge" from Kirby Super Star, which is actually an incorrectly titled medley of the songs "Boarding the Halberd" and "Havoc Aboard the Halberd". It's also good to look at songs Super Smash Bros. is using a different title for than us, like how it uses the Japanese titles of the Donkey Kong Country OST instead of the correct ones. Between all these facts it should be obvious the track titles in Super Smash Bros. are not something the localisation team puts a whole lot of thought or effort into (Though the original Japanese dev team also mess these up sometimes).
Going back to the original point that gave me this realisation, "Yoshi's Island" is a very nondescript track title for a random stage theme which most people would look for by searching for something like "Flower Stage" or possibly even "Ground theme" (Even though that would lead to another song but still), this is especially considering the title screen theme from the game is ALSO called Yoshi's Island, and that's not even considering the Yoshi's Island world map theme from Super Mario World, which I don't know if it even has an official title (Yet, it is coming to Nintendo Music eventually) but I would bet that's ALSO YOSHI'S ISLAND.
So I am suggesting to just make Smash Bros. a VERY low-priority source for this specific small aspect of the Wiki to avoid confusion and potentially future misinformation if things go too far.
'''Proposer''': {{User|biggestman}}<br>
==New features==
'''Deadline''': November 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT
===Noting the Switch 2 Editions===
I have seen that it's kind of a mystery how we should note the [[Nintendo Switch 2#Nintendo Switch 2 Edition games|Switch 2 Edition of a game]]. This question caused some controversy when I asked it in [[Talk:Super Mario Party Jamboree]], so I have decided to involve the whole community in this to see what everyone thinks and so we all know what we should do in the future, when more Switch 2 Editions will follow.
====Support====
#{{User|biggestman}} Did you know there's a theme titled "Per this proposal" in Super Wiki Bros. Ultimate but the original title is simply "Per Proposal"? INSANE! (Per proposal)
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - the theme names given in ''Smash'' (particularly ''Brawl'' and previous) are more just general descriptions of the contexts they play in rather than actual names. Hence why [[DK Island Swing]] became "Jungle Level."
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per Doc and proposal.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per proposal. To me this feels like making a non-Mario game determine the name of a Mario-article.
====Oppose====
#{{User|Hewer}} The names are from an official source whether we like them or not. Not only that, they come from within the games themselves, putting them at the top of the naming priority list. Tracks that have gone by different names more recently can use those, but those inconsistencies shouldn't invalidate the whole source. We also accept "inconsistent" names from Smash for other subjects, e.g. [[Propeller Piranha]], so it would be odd to single out music. (Also, I'd argue "Meta Knight's Revenge" isn't incorrect, but is the name of the medley rather than of either individual song. On the topic of Kirby music, I'm pretty sure "A Battle of Friends and Bonds 2" from Kirby Star Allies was first called that in Smash before the name appeared in other sources, which would suggest Smash's names aren't all bad.)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} The names used in the Super Smash Bros. series are from first-party games, are specific localizations of ''Super Mario'' specific material, and are localized by Nintendo of America. In my view, that is all that matters for citations, especially given most of these music tracks have not been officially localized into English through other channels. I similarly would not support a proposal to discredit the names for music tracks used in games like ''Mario & Sonic''. However, I do think this proposal is in the ballpark of a reality, which is that melodies that sometimes incorporate multiple compositions (like "Meta Knight's Revenge") and specific arrangements sometimes are given unique names. (This is not unique to the Smash Bros. series — a cursory view of the [https://vgmdb.net/ Video Game Music Database] or of officially published sheet music reveals Nintendo is often inconsistent with these names in the West.) In some installments, what is given a unique name for a particular arrangement (like "Princess Peach's Castle" from ''Melee'' and labeled as such in ''Super Smash Bros. for Wii U'') is attributed to just one piece in a subsequent game (in ''Ultimate'', this piece is named "Ground Theme" despite interlacing the "Underground BGM" in the piece as well, so while more simplistic for the Music List it is not wholly accurate, and I do not think "Ground BGM" should be called "Princess Peach's Castle" in any context other than this ''Melee'' piece). So I think it is worth scrutinizing how we name pieces that are "misattributed." However, I do not support a blanket downground of first-party Nintendo games just because we do not like some of the names.
#{{User|Salmancer}} If I recall from Miiverse correctly, the reason many songs are not given official public names is that naming songs does require spending very valuable developmental bandwidth, something that not all projects have to spare. (Sometimes, certain major songs have names because of how important they are, while other songs don't.) Given this, I am okay with Smash Bros. essentially forcing names for songs out early because it's interface requires named songs. Names don't have to be good to be official. My line is "we all agree this uniquely identifies this subject and is official".
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} See my comment below.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Waluigi Time
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per Nintendo101 & Waluigi Time. Some scrutiny is warranted, but let's not entirely discredit Smash Bros--a series of games published and sometimes developed in first-party capacity--as a source of information.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} These are still the most recent official names. Let's not unnecessarily overcomplicate things.
====Comments====
I'm not sure if this is a necessary proposal, or what it's going to accomplish in practice that isn't already handled with current organization and policy. As far as I'm aware, the ''Yoshi's Island'' examples here are just the result of no editor taking the initiative to move those pages to the new titles yet. The Nintendo Music names are the most recent and I think also fall under tier 1 of source priority, technically, so the pages should have those names, end of story. We don't need a proposal to do that.
Additionally, "Yoshi's Island" and "Obstacle Course" do ''not'' refer to the original themes from ''Yoshi's Island'' - they're the names of specific arrangements of those themes from the ''Smash'' games. Maybe it's not cemented into policy, but our current approach for theme articles is to use a title referring to the original theme when available. Take "[[Inside the Castle Walls]]", for instance. There's been several different names given to arrangements of this track over the years, including "Peach's Castle", "A Bit of Peace and Quiet", and most recently in the remake of ''Thousand-Year Door'', "A Letter from Princess Peach", but we haven't and most likely aren't going to move the page to any of those. (And that doesn't mean any of those games got it wrong for not calling it "Inside the Castle Walls". It's perfectly valid to give a different name to a new arrangement.)
Basically, I don't think this would be beneficial and could potentially cause headaches down the road. I can't think of any actual examples where we're stuck with a "worse" name from ''Smash'' based on everything else I've said here, especially with Nintendo Music being a new and growing resource for track titles in the context of the original games. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:17, November 4, 2024 (EST)
:Indeed, [[Ground BGM (Super Mario Bros.)|Ground BGM]] already got moved to its Nintendo Music name, despite being called "Ground Theme" in Smash (among other sources). Nintendo Music should already take priority over Smash just for being more recent. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:29, November 4, 2024 (EST)
:{{@|biggestman}} I recommend skimming through our [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policies]] for some clarity. The only reason why "[[Yoshi's Island (theme)]]" has not been moved to "Flower Fields BGM" is because no editor took the initiative yet, and another one had already turned "[[Flower Fields BGM]]" into a redirect page. That must be deleted by an admin first before the page can be moved, but that is the only reason. ''Super Smash Bros.'' and Nintendo Music are at the same tier of coverage, and because Nintendo Music is the most recent use of the piece, it should be moved. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:50, November 4, 2024 (EST)
@LadySophie17: What do you make of [[Propeller Piranha]], [[Fire Nipper Plant]], [[Nipper Dandelion]], etc., which are named based on what Viridi [[List of Palutena's Guidance conversations#Piranha Plant|calls them]] in Smash? And more generally, why does Smash not being strictly a Mario game matter? It's still an official game from Nintendo that uses the Mario IP, and the Mario content in it is fully covered even if it's exclusive to Smash (e.g. Mario stages and special moves all get articles). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:29, November 4, 2024 (EST)
:There's also the fact that Nintendo Music, which this proposal aims to prioritise, is not a Mario game either. It has a collection of music from various different franchises that just so happens to include Mario, much like Smash. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:10, November 5, 2024 (EST)
A lot of you have made good points, but one I don't understand or like is the one that those are the names of specifically the Super Smash Bros. versions, which is just painfully inconsistent. With very little exception remixes in Super Smash Bros. almost always use the original title in one of two ways, either using the name completely normally or by titling it (SONG NAME 1 HERE)/(SONG NAME 2 HERE) for remixes that are a relatively even split between two songs. Outside of this the only examples of "Well it COULD be the name of specifically the Smash version!!!" from every series represented are "Yoshi's Island", "Obstacle Course" and "Meta Knight's Revenge". Out of these Yoshi's Island and Obstacle Course theoretically COULD be original titles, but Meta Knight's Revenge is (probably) just meant to be named after Revenge of Meta Knight from Kirby Super Star, which is where both of the songs represented debuted, but was mistranslated. However I can't prove anything because none of these 3 Smash Bros. series remixes Japanese titles are anywhere online as far as I can tell so there's nothing to compare any of them to. There might also be examples from something like Fire Emblem or something idk I play primarily funny platformers. The point though is that if they were to name some remixes after the originals while making original titles for some it would just be so inconsistent I simply can't see a world where that's the intent. {{User:Biggestman/sig}} 13:19, November 5, 2024 (EST)
:I believe the Japanese name of the track was the same as the Japanese name of "Revenge of Meta Knight", but I maintain that translating it as "Meta Knight's Revenge" is not necessarily a mistake, the translators might have just thought that name was better suited for the theme specifically, especially since medleys in the Kirby series are often given different titles to the included themes ("Revenge of Meta Knight" is still not the title of either of the individual tracks included). For example, a different medley of the same two themes in Kirby's Dream Buffet is titled "Revenge of Steel Wings". Even if "Meta Knight's Revenge" is an error, though, that's one error in over a thousand track names, and one not even from the Mario franchise. One or two errors aren't enough to invalidate an entire source, especially one of this size. As for the Yoshi's Island tracks, as has already been pointed out, they should be changed anyway because Nintendo Music is the more recent source ([[Flower Field BGM]] already has been changed since this proposal was made). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:49, November 5, 2024 (EST)
::FWIW, that point isn't meant to be an argument against this specific change anyway, it's "we already shouldn't be prioritizing those names for article titles regardless of the outcome of this proposal, and here's why". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:13, November 5, 2024 (EST)
Ok so now that it's been a few days I have very quickly realised that I very much said a bad reason this change should be implemented. I just realised that all of these titles have already been moved but I have since realised a somewhat more understandable reason for it. If a new Smash game came out and reused these titles then according to our rules they would need to be moved back to those titles again, wouldn't they? Would it make sense to move Flower Fields BGM back to the less descriptive title just because a game reused a (debatably) worse title? Overall though I don't care too much about the result, even when I started this proposal, my impatience just got to me too early. {{User:Biggestman/sig}} 11:09, November 7, 2024 (EST)
:Yes, that's how recent name policy works. We should choose what name to use based on what the most recent official source says, not what we subjectively prefer. I personally feel like "Flower Field BGM" isn't much less generic than "Yoshi's Island". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:38, November 7, 2024 (EST)
::Not a simple yes/no answer, actually. If they're just arrangements again, then no, we wouldn't move the pages. If they added the original tracks from the SNES version and used those names, then they would probably be moved. (However, you might still be able to make a decent argument for keeping the Nintendo Music names on a recency basis considering it's a live service?) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:48, November 7, 2024 (EST)
I've actually been mulling over a proposal like this, but for names in general, not just themes. We generally don't consider out-of-franchise content as a source of a recent name if the original ''Super Mario'' franchise supersedes it; for example, Podoboo, which is still in use over Lava Bubble in ''The Legend of Zelda'' franchise. I don't see why the same thing can't be said for ''Super Smash Bros.'', especially now with its reduced coverage. For that matter, possibly breaking it down to a per-''series'' basis (like how "Gold Goomba" was the most recent name in the ''Super Mario'' series despite being "Golden Goomba" in the most recent ''Mario Party'')? It might not be a bad idea to establish a new rule over this. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
===Decide how to prioritize PAL English names===
As with [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Decide how to handle the "latest portrayal" section in infoboxes|my previous proposal]], this one aims at getting a consistent method of how PAL names are used alongside NTSC names. One thing that I noticed is that the priority of some of these names are inconsistent, like [{{fullurl:Mini Bowser|redirect=no}} Mini Bowser], which redirects to [[Koopa Kid]] rather than link to [[Mini Bowser (toy)|the name actually used in NTSC countries]]. Other pages, like [[Bowser Party]], are disambiguations between the ''[[Mario Party 10]]'' game mode and the ''[[Mario Party 7]]'' [[Bowser Time|event]] that is only known as "Bowser Party" in PAL regions.
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg This map] shows which countries use these different systems. The terms go beyond just color conversion; in terms of English, the PAL system is used in countries like the United Kingdom (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think Australia and New Zealand too), while the NTSC system is used in North America, specifically in the United States and Canada. [[MarioWiki:Naming]] says that the North American name takes priority, which means that Mini Bowser would link to the toy and Bowser Party would redirect to the section in ''Mario Party 10'', potentially among other pages, although tophats linking to pages with alternate PAL names will remain.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Yoshi18}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT
Therefore, I am proposing four options:
====We give Switch 2 Editions their own articles====
*NTSC>PAL, in which when linking pages, the page with the name in NTSC English or all-English takes priority over other pages sharing the same PAL name, even if it isn't as significant. If another page with the same name in PAL English exists, it can be linked to in the tophat.
#{{User|memoryman3}} Switch 2 Editions are unique game builds that Nintendo gives you the option to upgrade to, and as such should be treated as unique games. Determining whether a game deserves a separate article should be treated on a case-by-case basis, similar to other reissues. This would be no different from distinguishing a game like [[Luigi's Mansion 2 HD]] or [[Donkey Kong Country Returns HD]] as unique titles, unless the changes are so minimal that the games are classified as ports.
*NTSC=PAL, in which pages that share the same name in both NTSC and PAL English appear in a disambiguation page regardless of whether the name is used in NTSC English multiple times or not. This is already done with [[Bowser Party]].
*NTSC<PAL, in which pages that share the same name in PAL English have the highest priority name linked to it, even if it doesn't have that name in NTSC English but the other pages does, in which case it will redirect to the higher-priority PAL name and the lower-priority NTSC (or all-English) page will be linked to in the tophat in the Redirect template. This has been done with [[Mini Bowser]].
*Do nothing - do I even have to explain this?
'''Proposer''': {{User|Altendo}}<br>
====We give Switch 2 Editions their own section in their base games' article====
'''Deadline''': November 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|CarlosYoshiBoi}} I’m in for this one.
====NTSC>PAL====
====We make a Switch 2 Edition page where the Switch 2 Editions have their own respective sections====
#{{User|Altendo}} I think that abiding by SMW:NAMING is the best option. Yes, Koopa Kid is more notable than Mini Bowser toys, but if this is an American English wiki, might as well make pages link to the one that actually are named like that in NTSC.
#{{User|Mari0fan100}} I've seen courses and vehicles in ''Mario Kart Wii'' that have names that differ between the NTSC and PAL versions. If the articles to those courses and vehicles use the NTSC version, shouldn't other things use the NTSC version as well?
====NTSC=PAL====
====Propose in the games' talk page based on what the Switch 2 Edition adds====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I think this is the best solution — completely deprioritizing the PAL names doesn't quite seem right to me.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} This is an international wiki, not an American wiki. Whilst prioritizing NTSC names for naming makes kinda sense (an article can only have one title), there's no need to prioritize a specific region when it comes to linking.
====NTSC<PAL====
====Re-propose this when we're closer to release of the Switch 2====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Ideally, we should wait until after launch since there's still much we don't know. From what I understand, they don't even have their own physical versions when seemingly everything else does (literally just the original Switch copy with a one-time download-code, or for all intents and purposes, DLC). If these "upgrade packs" act just like DLC does on previous consoles, then I think we should treat them as such, but that's to be determined at a later time.
====Do nothing====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Yeah, no, we should definitely wait on this until the Switch 2 releases. Otherwise, we might end up pre-emptively codifying a ton of articles with nothing substantial to them beyond "It's exactly the same as Switch 1, the gameplay functions, visuals, text, audio, and everything are all the same, but it just runs smoother." We'd like to refer to the PC-88 and Sharp X1 versions of ''[[Super Mario Bros. Special]]'', not just because it's fresh on our mind, but it is genuinely relevant to the subject; that is a game that very expressly has a performance-related different release on another platform, but outside of the very obvious audiovisual elements, there just isn't enough to warrant splitting on the gameplay side. We could very easily see the Switch 2 Editions being similar to this, where the gameplay is entirely intact with no unique mechanics or mild substitutions due to hardware improvements, but the vast majority of the differences are just "uh, it looks different and runs smoother", which is not particularly substantial.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all. Too early at this point.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all, and per my comment below
#{{User|Yoshi18}} Per proposal and all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
====Comments====
====Comments====
can i ask for some more examples? i'm having a bit of trouble fully grasping what you mean [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 20:11, November 4, 2024 (EST)
We know so little about what a Switch 2 Edition will mean that I don't think a decision can be made right now. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 12:05, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
:The Mini Bowser situation, for instance:
:Seconding this--wouldn't it be better to just wait for the Switch 2 to actually release to see how the Switch 2 editions actually work? We're highly skeptical they would actually feature exclusive content in the first place, mind you, but without a Switch 2 edition having actually released, we're kind of voting in the dark here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:07, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
::i want to point out the "Switch 2 Edition" moniker is specifically reserved for versions which have actual content changes (ie, not what Odyssey is getting, which is just a free compatibility update). however, i still think we should wait more before deciding what to do, and that it might be better to case-by-case it {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 14:12, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
:*NTSC>PAL: Mini Bowser would link to the [[Mini Bowser (toy)|page actually named "Mini Bowser"]] instead of [[Koopa Kid]] (who is known as Mini Bowser in PAL English)
Case-by-case where we only split ones with significant new content might be the way to go. This reminds me of how ''[[New Play Control! Donkey Kong Jungle Beat]]'' is split while ''[[New Play Control! Mario Power Tennis]]'' isn't. As for determining which ones have enough new content, it seems like the titles can help with that - so far, ones that are mainly just graphical improvements are just called "''Game – Nintendo Switch 2 Edition''", while ones that have more content added have another bit on the end of the title after a "＋" (like ''Super Mario Party Jamboree – Nintendo Switch 2 Edition ＋ Jamboree TV''). I guess the option closest to this is the fourth one, except I'd rather not strictly require a proposal to determine it in cases where it's obvious (though of course we'd be allowed to have one if it's not). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:50, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
:*NTSC=PAL: Mini Bowser would be a disambiguation page between Koopa Kid and the Mini Bowser toy
:*NTSC{{<}}PAL: Mini Bowser would continue to redirect to Koopa Kid.
:*Do nothing: Nothing changes.
:Hope this makes more sense. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 21:07, November 4, 2024 (EST)
I understand everyone's argument about this but I feel like we already know enough about the Switch 2 Edition of Jamboree to make this proposal. {{User:Yoshi18/sig}} 15:27, April 7, 2025 (EDT)
::So in the first option, "Mini Bowser (toy)" would lose its identifier? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:19, November 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Basically. The tophat will say, "This article is about the toy. For the characters known as "Mini Bowsers" in Europe, as Koopa Kid." I prefer abiding by SMW:NAMING by prioritizing NTSC names over PAL names. Basically, the current Mini Bowser (toy) page will be moved to Mini Bowser, which will no longer redirect to Koopa Kid. For people who have only owned NTSC copies, this is more straightforward, as many would be unaware that Koopa Kid is known as Mini Bowser without having a PAL copy. As for Bowser Party, if Option 1 passes, it will redirect to the section in ''Mario Party 10'', with a tophat leading to Bowser Time. If Option 2 passes, Mini Bowser would become a disambiguation page between Koopa Kid and Mini Bowser (toy). If Option 3 passes, Bowser Party would redirect to Bowser Time and would have a tophat leading to the ''Mario Party 10'' section. If Option 4 passes, well... nothing changes, making everything remain inconsistent.
:::So, to answer your question, yes, the identifier will be removed. The only other page with the exact same name minus the identifier is simply the redirect to Koopa Kid, who is only known as "Mini Bowser" in European English, and SMW:NAMING prioritizes American English names. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 07:15, November 5, 2024 (EST)
It is weird personally to have a "table this proposal" voting option when this wiki doesn't have a policy preventing it from being proposed again. A proposal being put up again after some time has passed is fairly normal. Well, there is the four week rule but surely no one would enforce that if the Switch 2 Edition games released within that window. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 13:45, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
::::Now that I think about it, couldn't the identifier for the Mini Bowser toy be removed anyway? There's no actual article named Mini Bowser. For that matter, I thought it was discouraged to use the terms NTSC and PAL now in regards to English, especially now that region-locking is mostly a thing of the past. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
:I guess it's meant to be the equivalent of a "do nothing" option. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:59, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
:::::I'm pretty sure whether the identifier can be removed for that reason is what this proposal is trying to decide. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:06, November 9, 2024 (EST)
:Maybe it should have been "re-discuss" instead of "re-propose" so it doesn't have to have another proposal. Oh well. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:20, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
::::::Hewer: Not necessarily just that - it's to decide if NTSC or PAL names should take priority when linking to a page that might have the same name in a different coded region. If Option 1 passes, it doesn't matter if a page with the same PAL name as another page with an NTSC name is more prominent; if that name isn't used in NTSC, then the page with the actual NTSC name takes priority, and the page with the PAL name is linked to with a tophat (take my Koopa Kid and Bowser Party examples above for instance). [[SMW:NAMING]] says, and quote:
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''
::::::*"The Super Mario Wiki is an English language wiki, so the name of an article should correspond to the '''most commonly used English name''' of the subject, which, given our user and visitor demographics, means the '''North American name'''. For example, the North American title of "''[[Mario Strikers Charged]]''" takes precedence over the PAL region's "''Mario Strikers Charged Football''" title."
==Changes==
===Change the moon icon for Dark Mode===
'''''NOTE:''' Yes, we see what day it is. No, this is ''not'' a prank proposal! The fact this is actually coherent should've told you that much, but in case you couldn't tell, we are being genuine about this one. However, given how silly the subject matter is, we couldn't resist.''
::::::If this is true for naming, why isn't it true for linking, specifically and especially for subjects in which they are the only ones with a specific name in NTSC? I don't have a problem with mentioning other English games in the top of a page, but I feel like linking to a page that is either a disambiguation page between a mode named "Bowser Party" in all regions and a gimmick only named "Bowser Party!" in PAL and as "Bowser Time!" in NTSC, as well as "Mini Bowser" linking to Koopa Kid over the actual toy even though only the latter is used in NTSC, would make extra steps for people who type it in the URL or even wiki search expecting to see the term only used in NTSC regions. Linking to these pages will also be easier, as, take the Mini Bowser case for instance, they don't have to use the identifier, which not only removes identifier space, but also visible text space. If multiple names continue to share the same NTSC name, then the most prominent one will continue to have no identifier, and if there is no dominance, then a disambiguation page will remain. For example, the Mini Mario form continues to be used because it is more prominent than the toy, and even then, the toy's name is slightly different, and both names are used in NTSC English. I understand that some people are from PAL countries and have PAL-configured systems, but seeing as this is an NTSC English wiki, and according to the quote above, how the majority of the views are from NTSC countries, whether from IPs or registered users, I feel like NTSC names should take priority over PAL names, even if the subject itself has a lower priority. I would rather give extra steps to PAL names than to NTSC names due to the fact that NTSC English viewers are more prominent and therefore would see "Mini Bowser" as the toy rather than Koopa Kid. Priority should be given to the most prominent visitor group, so the names that appear in the version shown to the majority of these visitors should be linked there instead of a more prominent character with the same name mainly used by a less prominent group.
In case you somehow missed it, fairly recently, a proper dark mode was added to the wiki. You can enable it by clicking the moon icon on the top of the page; it's black on light mode, and yellow on dark mode. This ''works.'' This is adequate. We won't say it's bad by any stretch of the imagination. But look at the iconography all around it! The background has assorted icons, the wiki logo and favicon is a mushroom, and heck, for as long as we can remember, a mushroom sprite has been next to the username bar! While the alert bell and inbox icons are both a rather understandable grey, the moon actively changes colors and is positioned right next to that mushroom sprite in the username bar, which begs the question why it's like that.
::::::LinkTheLefty: Except for Nintendo Switch consoles sold in Mainland China, region-locking does not exist on the Switch, and the region is not actually set based on where the console is purchased - instead, it is configured during setup, and can be changed at anytime, unless a Nintendo Account is connected, in which case, the region for each game is set to the region the Nintendo Account is based in (it doesn't have to be based in the country of setup, it can be based in any country as long as the user has an applicable credit card using the same currency as the Nintendo eShop) per each user that plays it. Game Cards also don't have region locking (IDK if this is true for those purchased in Mainland China), and also use settings based on either system region or Nintendo Account region, not based on where the game was bought in (exceptions are likely made for region-exclusive games, for which I have none, so I cannot test this out). This does mean that setting up PAL English in NTSC regions is possible, and vice versa, but due to the fact that most people only have credit cards for currencies of their home country, it is almost always that their Nintendo Account (and therefore their game region) is set in their home country, meaning that the majority of people who view this wiki, which are Americans, have their region set to the United States, and therefore play NTSC versions of their games regardless of where the console or games were purchased. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 23:49, November 9, 2024 (EST)
[[File:Camwoodstock Dark Mode Icon Proposal Sprites.png|thumb|right]]
Having asked on the Discord, we've come up with 3 possible changes to make, displayed to the right there:
*'''Both Light and Dark Mode use a [[3-Up Moon]]''': Self-explanatory. Light Mode would be a white recoloring of the original ''SMW'' sprite, whereas dark mode would use the original yellow sprite.
*'''Light Mode has a [[Shine Sprite]], Dark Mode uses a [[Power Moon]]''': Similar concept, but with more modern day collectibles. We've made some edited sprites to use for this (using sprites from ''Bowser's Inside Story'' and ''Odyssey'' as a basis), but we'd be open to improvements.
*'''Do nothing:''' Light Mode uses a black crescent, dark mode uses a yellow crescent. Simple-as.
===Do not surround song titles with quotes===
In addition, if there's genuine interest in doing so, we could perhaps make proposals to change the alert bell and notice inbox icons as well. For now, though, we'd like to keep it to the Dark Mode moon, as it's both new enough, and also it has the (dis)advantage of being juxtaposed directly with the mushroom next to the username, so it sticks out more to us.
This is a change to [[MarioWiki:Manual_of_Style#Italicizing_titles|this section of our Manual of Style]]. Currently, our policy is to surround song titles with quotation marks whenever they appear. However. We are a Mario wiki, and the Mario series overwhelmingly ''does not'' do this.
The comparison arises to italics, but I feel there's quite a difference between that (an effect applied to text) and the inclusion of punctuation marks, which ''are'' text in and of themselves. Not to mention, unlike italics, which would require special programming to implement, quote marks are supported by anything that supports English text, meaning it's not a question of technical limitations — every game that names its songs is perfectly capable of listing them inside quotation marks, and yet they make the choice not to.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}
As such, surrounding song titles in quotes is questionable as adherence to an unofficial naming scheme over the original one. Not to mention the effects this can have on lists of song titles — their inclusion on [[Template:DDRMM]] fluffs up the width of the song section by the width of ''several'' song titles.
====Which one for light mode?====
'''Deadline''': April 15, 2025, 23:59 GMT
I'd also like to take the opportunity to mention how inconsistently these quote marks are applied across the wiki already — many entries in [[:Category:Music]] do not use them in their article, none of the lists of songs from the shows or of WarioWare DIY records use them, [[Starring Wario!]] and ''only'' Starring Wario has had its article title changed to have the quotes. I take this to mean the rule is not serving the wiki as it stands.
;White 3-Up Moon
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option. It's parity with the dark mode button, though we feel like making the light mode option a moon like the dark mode one is a missed opportunity.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I like how it matches the Mushroom it is next too. The Shine Sprite and Power Moon are too contemporary in aesthetics. However, I wonder if porplemontage uses the moon symbol across the wikis he manages, like SmashWiki and the like. This is speculative, but it may not be technically possible to update the moon on Super Mario Wiki and not for other wikis that share its infrastructure. But if it ''is'' possible, this is the direction I would go with.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Better aesthetic, in my opinion. The alternative sticks out like a sore thumb.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Simple, clean, and fits with the Mushroom sprite perfectly.
The one exception to everything I've mentioned thus far is ''Paper Mario: The Origami King''{{'}}s music discs: [["Deep, Deep Vibes"]], [["Heartbeat Skipper"]], [["M-A-X Power!"]], and [["Thrills at Night"]]. These are the only time the names of songs are formatted this way (possibly due to the items being CDs ''of'' the songs and not the songs themselves). Therefore, '''these will be the only exception if this proposal passes, and will keep their quote marks'''.
;Shine Sprite
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary option. While we stand firmly by the 3-Up Moon for dark mode, Shine Sprites are far more unique silhouette-wise.
To circle back around to my original point: I think the nail in the coffin for displaying music this way is [[Nintendo Music]]. This application, specifically meant to play music, does not surround their names with quote marks. And yet [[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music|this article]] surrounds them in quotes anyway, stringently adhering to our unofficial way of formatting these over the way Nintendo Music actually formats them. It's almost ''lying'', frankly.
;Black Crescent (status quo)
So, our options:
====Which one for dark mode?====
'''Deadline''': April 15, 2025, 23:59 GMT
* '''Option 1: Exclude quote marks from song titles in all cases.''' Our manual of style will remove the mention of song titles from the section of italicizing titles. Just for clarity, this excludes Origami King's CDs.
;Yellow 3-Up Moon
* '''Option 2: Keep quote marks when song titles are used in a sentence, but exclude them from standalone appearances of the title.''' Such standalone appearances would include article titles, navboxes, infoboxes, track listings, and table entries. Just for clarity, this option, too, excludes Origami King's CDs.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This one's our ride-or-die option. Ever since we saw the original icon, we've kinda been hoping it'd get to be a 3-Up Moon to go alongside the ''SMB3'' Mushroom.
* '''Option 3: Do nothing.''' I guess this option ''includes'' Origami King's CDs.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per my vote above. I like how it compliments the Mushroom sprite it is next to aesthetically.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I like the sprites being the same, just palette-swapped, for the toggle. Simple's good.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per my other vote.
'''Proposer:''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
;Power Moon
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Option 1====
;Yellow Crescent (status quo)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} My primary choice. I've firmly laid out my reasons why here.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} I prefer to think of each music as a work in its own right rather than a part of some "greater whole". ''[[Jump Up, Super Star!]]'' is more than just a piece of ''Super Mario Odyssey''{{'}}s OST. Therefore, song titles should be italicized like any other work and not be in quotation marks as if they were merely chapters.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, and there's [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Italics formatting of boat names, fictional products, and others|precedent]] for following Nintendo's official formatting in spite of usual conventions. The inconsistencies described in the proposal ought to be fixed regardless of the outcome, though.
====Option 2====
====Comments (the sun & moon are fighting!)====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I will settle for this — part of my ire toward the quotemarks is that I find them highly unsuitable for these particular usages.
The sun and moon are fighting, eh? [http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/comic/82-superstar/ I have a solution for that...]
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Secondary option, per my comment below in Option 3.
====Option 3====
In all seriousness, I'm not entirely decided on my vote, but I feel like it would be better to have an different icon from the moon for light mode. That's just my 5 cents though. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 20:27, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a ''greater whole'' (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in ''{{wp|The Color of Water}}''. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of ''{{wp|Resident Alien (TV series)|Resident Alien}}''. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the ''Super Mario'' franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "[[Gusty Garden Galaxy (theme)|Gusty Garden Galaxy]]" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and [[Gusty Garden Galaxy]] is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per N101. quotation marks are a writing convention! most mario games also don't have italic titles, but we italicize them anyways because it's a formal writing convention that makes sense
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Strong oppose, per all. This is a well-recognized writing convention, the fact that Nintendo doesn't typically follow it within their products is irrelevant.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Nintendo101. These quotes are here for a reason, no matter how remote it may seem.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Quoting songs is from the manual of style itself, it's the same reason we italicize game titles. I would go even further and quote song titles as a display title like I did in "[[Starring Wario!]]"
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - "Because game writing" is what leads to wikis encouraging jokey sarcastic writing, which I'm pretty sure is not the direction we want to go.
====Comments====
Im not sure making this a poll proposal is a good idea because the icon options are quite different stylistically. Imagine, for example, the detailed Shine Sprite sprite being used alongside the minimalistic yellow moon icon. Additionally, the Shine Sprite/Power Moon options could stand to be a little more cohesive between each other, mainly regarding the outline, but also the shading to some extent. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 20:35, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
If this passes, how would it affect coverage of non-Mario music? Our only options are either to have two standards, or ignore established convention based on what Nintendo does for media they had no hand in actually producing. Neither seems ideal to me. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:24, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:We're well aware, don't worry; we'd be fine to tweak the actual images as need be, such as reducing the shading on the Shine Sprite if it wins alongside the 3-Up Moon. The images are just our little concept pieces to illustrate the point. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:38, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
:We'd treat non-Mario music the same as Mario music. Established convention doesn't mean much when we're always saying on this page that we're not other wikis and we don't necessarily need to do things the way other wikis do them. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::I don't think anyone is advocating to hold onto a convention just for the sake of it. Rather, that we should hold onto the convention because it is useful and the proposal doesn't provide persuasive reasons to abandon that usage, or at least it does not for me. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)
In addition, I wouldn't use applications such as Nintendo Music as proof that we shouldn't abide by formatting either. Neither music metadata nor files themselves quote song names, neither does [https://open.spotify.com/track/433JymbpWnRMHXzp1oTRP7 Spotify] nor [https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Bother-Shakira/dp/B000BUEG9U Amazon Music]. Yet {{Wp|Don't Bother|Wikipedia still does}} because that's how it's standardized in writing articles. In addition, you pointed out how "Starring Wario!" is the outlier as your point, I've '''only just started working on those articles''' mate. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:01, November 10, 2024 (EST)
:Even Wikipedia doesn't use the quotes in article titles though. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:17, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::I would support an option that called for just removing the quotation marks in the header for articles (as done {{wp|I Am the Walrus|here}}, which should be compared to {{wp|Magical Mystery Tour#Track listing|here}}). This is not uncommon in written books on music. But there currently is no voting option to do just that. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, November 11, 2024 (EST)
{{@|Ray Trace}} I'm aware it's in the manual of style. That's why the proposal is about changing the manual of style. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:01, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:I'm not talking about the wiki's manual style. I'm talking about general guidelines especially [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_works_cited_other_common_sources.html MLA] {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:41, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::If it's not ''our'' manual of style, then there's no reason for us to care about it because we don't use it. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:04, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::''Our'' manual of style '''is based on this manual of style.''' {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:11, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::If it's only ''based on'' it, then it ''isn't'' it. The manual of style is ours, so this quote mark convention has to survive on its own merits, not just by virtue of being in someone ''else's'' manual of style. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:22, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::Not using general formatting standard guidelines solely because "we shouldn't just because we're not them" is not a good argument. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::Well, then — '''Nintendo doesn't do this either, so there's no reason for this wiki to ''pretend'' like they do.''' That's been my argument this whole time. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The main difference is that they're a video game, and they're inherently informal in their presentation. They're not trying to write things and bios formally, they're trying to present writing to players, so formatting like italicizing game titles is optional, because that's what it's set out to do. On the other hand, we're an encyclopedia, our writing formatting is far more similar to Wikipedia which observes these things and MLA writing guidelines, and how to format sourcing, and it's something we ''should'' emulate over a video game's script. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:47, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::{{@|Ahemtoday}} I don't think that is the strong argument you think it is, because almost no piece of media where it has become conventional to include quotation marks include them themselves. They are not on the back of most [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/e1/7e/abe17ef61a737df53498f93487668213.jpg albums], [https://images.template.net/89102/novel-table-of-contents-template-wvzrz.jpeg books], or [https://addbcdbimages.s3.amazonaws.com/nick/sbsp_fish_bowl.jpg title cards for television shows]. But they are all still presented with quotes arounf them in reference material like Wikipedia and physical books. What makes the Nintendo music we cover here so different that warrants unique treatment? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:53, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Nintendo doesn't always italicize game titles either, this site does. To be honest, though, I'm not sure how consistently this wiki observes MLA. There's some superficial basis in it (mostly coming off of Wikipedia's style guide, which is sprinkled with some MLA), what with the titles of whole works being written in italics and those of constituent parts of a work being surrounded by quotes, yet the manner in which citations are formatted, arguably a priority of any academic style guide, seems rather peculiar to Wikipedia's house style. Take any citation formatted using the {{tem|cite}} template on this wiki and compare it to how [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_formatting_and_style_guide.html MLA proposes it is done] <small>(owl.purdue.edu)</small>. There's also been at least [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Italics_formatting_of_boat_names.2C_fictional_products.2C_and_others|one attempt]] at explicitly adopting a standard purveyed by MLA that got shot down. Not to digress too much, I just wanted to point out that MLA is not currently as pervasive here as it's made out to be and can't be appealed to solely because of a few instances that (happen to) observe it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:20, November 11, 2024 (EST), edited 19:24, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::I am personally forgiving on how we structure citations in that template, because many academic journals don't adopt the MLA structure either. Everyone does something a little different from one another. The information included in a citation is more important than how it is organized, and things like ISBN are pretty helpful for an online reference like Super Mario Wiki.
::::::::But I also don't believe in supporting conventions just for the sake of them ''being'' conventions. I'd rather support them if they are beneficial. What are your thoughts on what I said in my vote above? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:33, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::I cannot argue with your vote. If a writing standard promoted by outside guides can harmonize with the needs of Mario Wiki, there's no reason not to adopt it. Quotation marks serve their purpose well in this case. so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:10, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I'm realizing I haven't given my full thoughts on {{@|Nintendo101}}'s vote yet. I agree that there are benefits to formatting song titles in this way (particularly in sentences, which is why I have the option to keep the quote marks exclusively ''in'' sentences) — but this formatting scheme misrepresents how the actual works in question are referred to by official media. I had to ask a friend who had Nintendo Music to find out whether or not the app displayed song titles in quotes, because I couldn't trust this wiki to tell me — and, like I said, Nintendo Music ''doesn't''. Yet [[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music|this article]] writes the song names as if it ''does'', because apparently this convention is more important than this kind of information. I know this is a minor piece of information, but this formatting convention causes me to be '''unable to trust the wiki about it'''. No benefit can counterbalance that. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)
I'm surprised [[Angry Sun]]/[[Moon (Super Mario Maker 2)|Moon]] aren't here. There's even the perfect quote in the latter article. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:28, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
:Your honor... 1. ''we forgor'' 2. We weren't really confident in our ability to sprite a 16x16 Angry Sun that actually looks good by the time we remembered--let alone a ''SMM2'' moon. Those sprites are larger for a reason! {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:23, April 1, 2025 (EDT)
::Fair enough. By the way, if the 3-Up Moons pass, it'd look cute if the toggle was moved a little closer to the mushroom icon - since the sprite faces the other way, it'd seem like the moon's leaning against it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 03:19, April 2, 2025 (EDT)
===Add identifiers to near-identical titles===
===Split ''Mario & Sonic'' game categories by version===
Current MarioWiki writing guidelines state that articles with shared titles recieve an identifier to disambiguate between them (see: [[Mark (Mario Tennis series)|Mark (''Mario Tennis'' series)]] and [[Mark (NES Open Tournament Golf)|Mark (''NES Open Tournament Golf'')]]). However, this currently relies on the articles sharing an identical, character-by-character name. This means [[Color coin]] (''Super Mario Run'') and [[Colored coin]] (''Wario Land 3'') do not recieve identifiers, despite sharing functionally identical titles. Other sets of articles with the same dilemma include [[Secret Course 1]] (''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins'') and [[Secret Course 01]] (''Super Mario Run''), [[Spyguy]] (''Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis'') and [[Spy Guy]] (''Paper Mario''), and [[Rollin' Down the River]] (''Yoshi's Woolly World'') and [[Rolling Down the River]] (''The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!'').
This proposal applies to the following games:
* [[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (Wii)|''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games'' (Wii)]] and [[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (Nintendo DS)|''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games'' (Nintendo DS)]]
* [[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games (Wii)|''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games'' (Wii)]] and [[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games (Nintendo DS)|''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games'' (Nintendo DS)]]
* [[Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games (Wii)|''Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games'' (Wii)]] and [[Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games (Nintendo 3DS)|''Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games'' (Nintendo 3DS)]]
* [[Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Wii U)|''Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games'' (Wii U)]] and [[Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Nintendo 3DS)|''Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games'' (Nintendo 3DS)]]
This proposal aims to amend [[MarioWiki:Naming]] to consider near-identical titles like these as "shared titles", and thus qualify for recieving an identifier according to the established criteria. This is already applied in some articles, but this proposal aims to formalize it as part of the naming rules.
Put plainly, it doesn't make sense to me that the Wii/Wii U and DS/3DS versions of these games share the same categories. The versions quite substantially differ from each other to the point where each version gets its own page. I propose we handle categories for these games the same way we handle categories for ''[[Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS]]'' and ''[[Super Smash Bros. for Wii U]]''. For instance, with file categories, there is still [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U images]] and its subcategories for images that apply to both versions, but there are also split [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS images]] and [[:Category:Super Smash Bros. for Wii U images]] categories and subcategories. So, for instance, even if we aren't sure where an asset comes from or if the two games share an asset, it can stay in the existing merged category. This split will be especially useful for screenshots, given it's sometimes not clear when a screenshot is from DS/3DS or Wii/Wii U (some screenshots of the former lack the double screen).
Note that this proposal only covers names that are '''semantically identical''', and only differ in formatting or minor word choices. [[Buzzar]] and [[Buzzer]] have extremely similar names, but they aren't semantically identical. [[Balloon Boo]] and [[Boo Balloon]] are extremely similar as well, but the word order sets them apart.
As for page categories, both versions of a game sharing them lead to confusion. For instance, there's the page [[4x100m Relay (Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games)]]. Its identifier doesn't list a version, so does that mean this event is in both the DS and Wii versions? Nope, only the Wii version (I don't think we should change identifiers, to be clear). From what I've seen, no event page covers both versions of a game. So why do we only have a single events category per game? [[:Category:Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games events]] is a confusing mess as it currently stands. This doesn't only apply to events, but items as well - the story mode of the DS version of ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games'' has a lot of subjects not in the Wii version, and even some of the pages themselves don't clarify which version the subject is from (perhaps because of confusion on version differences - for example look at [[Battle Snow Machine]]). By splitting these categories, not only will navigation be easier, but there will be less confusion on subjects as well.
'''Edit:''' Per Hewer's question and my comment below, I'd like to point out MarioWiki already does this sometimes. Pairs of near-identical names with identifiers include [[Family Basic (microgame)]] and [[Family BASIC]] (as ruled by [[Talk:Family_Basic_(microgame)#Moving_the_page|a proposal]]), [[Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise)|Hot Air Balloon (''Donkey Kong'' franchise)]] and [[Hot-air balloon]], [[Finish line (object)]] and [[Finish Line (microgame)]], and [[Avalanche (obstacle)]] and both [[Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix)|Avalanche! (''Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix'')]] and [[Avalanche! (Mario Party 4)|Avalanche! (''Mario Party 4'')]]. If this proposal doesn't pass, all of these would get their identifiers removed.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Technetium}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
====Split all categories====
'''Deadline''': November 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Technetium}} As Olympian.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We encountered this exact issue last night, actually, while adding Aboutfile descriptions. We're a bit surprised this hasn't already been done. Per proposal.
#{{User|Salmancer}} Per all.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.
====Support====
====Split only page categories====
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal.
====Oppose====
====Split only file categories====
#{{User|Altendo}} I don't see a need for this. If the names are similar, tophats containing the other pages can be placed on the pages with similar names. Identifiers are used to identify subjects with ''identical names'', not similar names.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Altendo, this is what [[Template:Distinguish]] is for. We have to use identifiers for identical titles because the wiki can't have multiple pages with the same title, but that limitation doesn't exist if the titles are just similar. This would make the titles longer than they need to be, and I could also see this leading to disagreements about what's similar enough to count, if the examples are anything to go by. Easier to stick to the objectivity of only giving identical names identifiers. The proposal also doesn't specify what the "some articles" are where this has already been done, but I'm assuming they should be changed.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per Hewer.
====Comments====
====Keep all categories merged====
I'm not sure why this is a problem in the first place, can you please elaborate? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:13, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:i just find it a bit unreasonable to expect people to remember the difference between two names that are identical in all but formatting, or essentially irrelevant word choice differences (in the case of Color coin and Colored coin, which have also been). this is especially true while editing; i had to verify whether Secret Course 1 was the SML2 one or the SMR one when writing the [[Secret exit]] article. without resorting to a literal, robotic interpretation of the rules, all of the articles i mentioned have functionally "the same name" as their pair, and there is precedent for adding identifiers to article names like these. [[Family Basic (microgame)]] recieved a differentiatior because a mere capitalization difference from [[Family BASIC]] [[Talk:Family_Basic_(microgame)#Moving_the_page|was deemed unreasonable]]. folks in the MarioWiki Discord server agreed with me when i asked if i should rename [[Hot Air Balloon (Donkey Kong franchise)]] (previously just "Hot Air Balloon", with no hyphen and Air capitalized) to differentiate it from [[Hot-air balloon]]. [[Avalanche (obstacle)]] has an identifier to separate it from [[Avalanche! (Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix)]] and [[Avalanche! (Mario Party 4)]], even though both of them have exclamation marks. [[Finish line (object)]] and [[Finish Line (microgame)]] get identifiers, even though they're capitalized differently. this is something we already do, the aim here is just to formalize it. [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 14:51, November 11, 2024 (EST)
::This proposal passing wouldn't mean you no longer have to check whether it's Secret Course 1 or 01, it'd just mean you now have to type an unnecessary identifier and pipe link it as well. I'd say it's different for finish line and Family BASIC where the only difference between titles is casing, as the search function on the wiki is case insensitive (and also, that proposal made [[Family Basic]] a redirect to [[Family BASIC]], so an identifier is still needed to distinguish from that). But in the other cases, we don't need the identifier. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:49, November 11, 2024 (EST)
==New features==
====Comments at the Olympic Games====
===Create a category for "catch-all articles"===
By "catch-all article" (tentative term; please suggest names) I mean those that describe elements that are not related, but share an article because they boil down to the same generic, '''often''' real world object. Many of them fit what the [[MarioWiki:Generic subjects|guidelines]] call a "generic subject". Examples of this kind of article are:
*[[Hook]], which includes the object from ''[[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest]]'' and the hooks on poles from ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'';
==Miscellaneous==
*[[Lift]], which includes the yellow lifts seen in ''Super Mario'' games, elevators from ''[[Donkey Kong Country]]'', Moving Platforms from ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis]]'', among others, all just basic platforms;
===What is a game?===
*[[Bubble]], which includes the underwater bubble from ''[[Super Mario 64]]'', the player-carrying bubble from ''[[New Super Mario Bros. Wii]]'', the Bubble trap from ''[[Diddy Kong Racing]]'', among others;
Per {{@|Camwoodstock}}'s comments on the ongoing [[Talk:List of games#A location for the water games, pocket pinball machines, Water Teaser, and other similar items|electronic water-related proposal on the list of games]]. The way that a game is considered a game is currently arbitrary, with board games being split to one list, card games being relegated elsewhere, [[Play Nintendo]] getting its own list, and [[Nintendo Today!]] quizzes all being merged into the app's article. This proposal aims to decide what gets on the [[list of games]] article, since there isn't anything on that page that explicitly states that the games listed have to be video games (minus the text "organized by video game system", but this can be changed). To note, this proposal is not suggesting that anything should be removed from the list, the goal of this proposal is to figure out whether or not anything should be added to the list of games.
*[[Banana]], which includes the bananas from the [[Mario Kart (series)|''Mario Kart'']] series, the bananas from the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)|''Donkey Kong Country'']] games, the bananas from ''[[Yoshi's Story]]'', among others;
*[[Heart (item)|Heart]], which includes the heart item from ''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'', the one from ''[[Donkey Kong Country Returns]]'', the one from ''[[Dr. Mario World]]'', among others.
They may also boil down to a similar ''fictional'' basic concept, which are their own distinct thing, despite all of them taking a similar form:
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nelsonic}}
*[[! Block]], which includes the red blocks from the [[Yoshi's Island (series)|''Yoshi's Island'' games]] games, the block-spawning yellow blocks from ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'', the ! Block switches from the [[Wario Land (series)|''Wario Land'' games]];
====Do board games move to the list?====
*[[Poison Mushroom]], which includes the mushrooms from ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels]]'', the Poison Shroom item from the early [[Paper Mario (series)|''Paper Mario'' games]], among others;
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
*[[? Panel]], which includes the panels from ''[[Super Mario Kart]]'', the ones from ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', and others.
Compare subjects to which this category would '''not''' apply, like [[? Block]] or [[P-Switch]], where every reappearance of the subject is really a deliberate revisitation of a specific concept that already existed.
;Yes
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves in the original comments; this feels like kind of a no-brainer, and we're surprised these have been excluded from the Games list for as long as they have been. Board games are like, a known concept, they've been around for millennia, and heck, games like [[Mario Party-e]] exist as a hybrid board game/video game. Excluding board games feels very arbitrary, just because they aren't "video" games, but we've included the ''Game & Watch'' titles for forever, with basically no contention whatsoever, despite those not technically meeting the definition of being a "video" game.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Camwoodstock.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} The article is titled the "list of games," not the "list of ''VIDEO'' games." It'd be nice if this page just covered every game of every type, especially seeing how I consider board games (or anything of the sort) to be closer to games than merchandise. Besides, they are called board ''GAMES'', so why shouldn't they be included on the "list of ''GAMES''"?
This category would be applied to articles on concrete subjects only (most of which, if not all, would be objects).
;No
#{{User|Nintendo101}} This is not to disparage board games or other types of media of this nature, but I think it would be healthier for our site to have distinction between a "video game" and "promotional tie-in media and products." I do not think being interactive is enough for it count as a "game" within the context of a video game-oriented franchise, in the same way I would not include instruction booklets in a list of books because they have readable text. This kind of stuff should be supported on the site, but not here.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro Hammer}}<br>
====Do card games move to the list?====
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
;Yes
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} My proposal.
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves in the original comments, and the same rationale behind board games. Sure, it's not a "video" game, but this is List of Games, not List of Video Games.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Camwoodstock again.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Per my board game vote.
====Oppose====
;No
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't see how such a category would be useful, and I don't like that it's pretty subjective and is based on a trait shared by the articles rather than the objects themselves. Even if there was value in distinguishing these pages, I don't think a category like this is the way to do it.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Is [[History of Mario]] a catch-all article because it covers both a fictional character and [[Bob Hoskins]]? We would have to have that sort of debate for too many articles to count. This is too subjective and doesn't really accomplish anything.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Unnecessary, and the word "generic" alone is unclear whether it goes by the definition of real-life or ''Super Mario''.
====Comments====
====Do party games (i.e. Jenga) move to the list?====
My gut reaction is that I disagree that the Poison Mushroom and Lift articles encompass generic subjects. They are supported as discrete in the paratext for these games. But even if narrowed to articles I agree are generic, it is not inherently clear to me what the benefit of having a "catch-all category" would be. My general view is that there are quite a few subjects that we consider to be generic which really are not. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:45, November 10, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
:What would be some subjects you don't consider generic? My case for the Lift is that it's an article that encompasses almost all types of flat, moving platforms (a basic platforming game object), many even with their own distinct names; I believe you could even argue for some of the versions to get their own articles. And yeah, I agree that there's no huge benefit to having this category, as it would be there mostly for the sake of acknowledgement that "this article does not describe the history of a single idea, but it's instead an aggregation of the histories of various ideas that fit under this umbrella". {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 16:25, November 10, 2024 (EST)
==Removals==
;Yes
''None at the moment.''
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves in the original comments, and the rationale behind board games. This is gonna be appearing a few more times...
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Camwoodstock yet again.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Also per my board game vote.
==Changes==
;No
===Allow unregistered users to comment under talk page proposals===
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote. (You also do not italicize Jenga.)
One thing I never understood about rule 2 is why unregistered users are not allowed to comment under proposals. The rule states: "Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals." While it makes sense on this page, it is semi-protected after all, talk page proposals are a different story. Why should IPs be prevented from commenting under talk page proposals? Most IPs are readers of this wiki and they should be allowed to express their opinion on wiki matters too. I've seen several examples of IPs making good points on talk pages, I imagine most of them are regular visitors who are more interested in reading rather than editing, and allowing them to leave a comment under a TPP would only be beneficial.
If this proposal passes, unregistered and not-autoconfirmed users would be permitted to comment under talk page proposals. They still wouldn't be allowed to vote or create proposals, only comment.
====Do physical games (i.e. ''Barrel of Monkeys''-style things with physical characters and pieces) move to the list?====
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
'''Proposer''': {{User|Axii}}<br>
;Yes
'''Deadline''': November 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves in the original comments, and the rationale behind board games. You get it, right?
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Camwoodstock once more.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Yet again per my board game vote.
====Support (unregistered users proposal)====
;No
#{{User|Axii}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote.
#{{User|Hewer}} Wait, this was a rule?
#{{User|Pseudo}} This rule doesn't really seem like it accomplishes anything.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Why wasn't this already applicable?
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} it makes sense if it's just for comments
#{{User|Drago}} The rule was only [[Special:Diff/1858371|changed]] because of this page's semi-protection and not, as far as I can tell, because of any misuse of comment sections by unregistered users. Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} This is a reasonable change.
#{{User|Dine2017}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Anons use the wiki too and should be able to voice their concerns in the comments section, there's no reason to bar them the ability to comment.
#{{User|Mario}} We'll see if the Bunch of Numbers behave.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
====Oppose (unregistered users proposal)====
====Does ''Super Mario Ride'' move to the list?====
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Unregistered users just have numbers for their names, so that looks awkward with the way the votes are counted. It's easy to use your IP to sockpuppet, so I wouldn't want anyone doing that for the votes. And even for just the comments, I wouldn't want anyone to sockpuppet in an argument for manipulation tactics. Nor do I want to see poor grammer or vandalism. Anyone who wants to participate in voting discussions should sign up. This page was semiprotected for a reason. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 00:19, November 1, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
====Comments (unregistered users proposal)====
;Yes
"While it makes sense on this page, it is semi-protected after all"<br>If the protection history displayed above this page's edit box is any indication, it was the other way around. There was already a rule against anonymous voting on this page by the time it was semi-protected. In that case, it might be useful to look into the reasons this rule was made in the first place and, if there's any disagreement, extend this proposal to this page too. As to where these reasons are stated, I don't know. My assumption is that the rule exists because anons are more prone to shit up the place than registered and autoconfirmed users. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:15, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal. It is currently listed under "Other Super Mario-themed games" on the [[list of merchandise]].
:I couldn't find a reason why IPs were disallowed to comment. My only assumption is that when this page was protected the rule was modified to mention that IPs couldn't comment, but talk page proposals weren't considered. I'll look into it more and potentially add a third option to allow IPs to comment here as well. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 16:20, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|SeanWheeler}} - This isn't about voting, it's about commenting. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:04, November 1, 2024 (EDT)
;No
:For real, do you even read before voting on proposals? It's a small paragraph that makes it very clear that it's only about commenting under talk page proposals, not even on this page. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 01:07, November 1, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} From the looks of it, those are toy cars; those are toys, not games. Them being listed as "other Super Mario-themed games" feels like a bit of a misnomer.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote above.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Rides are not games.
===Decide whether to cover the E3 2014 ''Robot Chicken''-produced sketches===
====Do ''Play Nintendo'' games move to the list?====
For {{wp|E3 2014}}, Nintendo's press conference was a video presentation similar to today's Nintendo Directs, featuring [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FgzkZC0reE clips of stop-motion sketches] by the producers of ''{{wp|Robot Chicken}}''. I feel that these qualify to receive coverage on this wiki, since their appearance in a video published by Nintendo means that they are officially authorized, and they prominently feature ''Mario'' franchise characters. However, I have never seen the sketches discussed in any wiki article, nor are they listed on [[MarioWiki:Coverage]], so I thought it would be appropriate to confirm their validity for coverage with a proposal.
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
The following articles would be affected by this proposal if it passes (since the E3 2014 video is not a game, film, etc., coverage is best suited to an "Other appearances" section):
;Yes
*[[History of Mario]]
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal. There's a dedicated HTML section now.
*[[History of Bowser]]
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} With an HTML section in tow, we feel it's only fair.
*[[History of Princess Peach]]
#{{User|Rykitu}} Sure.
*[[History of Wario]]
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} We have other browser games on the list, why not these?
*[[Reggie Fils-Aimé]]
*[[Fire Flower]]
*[[Bullet Bill]]
*[[List of implied entertainment]] (In the last sketch, Mario mentions the fictional game ''Mario Ballet'').
Regardless of which option ends up winning, a note should be added to MarioWiki:Coverage to explain how these sketches are classified. Also, I'm clarifying that this proposal does not involve any sketches from ''Robot Chicken'' itself, since those are clearly parodies that have no approval from Nintendo.
;No
'''Proposer''': {{User|ThePowerPlayer}}<br>
====Does ''Nintendo Today!'' move to the list?====
'''Deadline''': November 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
;Yes
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal. It has many interactive elements, such as quizzes.
#{{User|Hewer}} This feels logical enough that I'm not sure it needs a proposal or even an explicit note on the coverage policy, but per proposal just in case.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per proposal
#{{User|Tails777}} Some of them were Mario related so I don't see any reason not to mention them. Per proposal.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} At first, we were a bit confused as to why ''only'' E3 2014 was getting this treatment, but it turns out that no, actually, we do mention a few things from E3 presentations and Nintendo Directs in these articles, we just never internalized that information. If we cover [[History of Wario#Other appearances|that Wario animatronic puppet from E3 1996]], and we cover [[History of Bowser#Other appearances|Bowser in Bayonetta 2]], we don't see why we shouldn't cover this specific E3's trailers just because it was by a different producer.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Don't see why not.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} It is no less official than [[Shitamachi Ninjō Gekijō]] or [[Super Mario-kun]]. Per all.
====Oppose====
;No
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Robot Chicken is an adult parody show. To cover Robot Chicken in Mario's history is like taking the Family Guy cutaway gags as canon. The Robot Chicken sketches including the E3 specials are covered in [[List of references in animated television]].
#{{User|1468z}} The only thing that comes the closest to the definition of game and is related to ''Mario'' is the silhouette quizzes, which despite their name are actually just articles with a profile of a character without any interactive elements. It's not that different from something you would find on Nintendo's website.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} To be honest, we're a bit on the fence, but we're leaning on this for now. Maybe if there were more active game elements to them, but as it stands, these are ''just'' articles at the moment with no real interactive elements aside from. Clicking it and reading it.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Shinya Takahashi ("[https://www.youtube.com/live/9OqoRxXUjGA?t=34m58s <nowiki>[Nintendo Today]</nowiki> is something a little different that's not a game]").
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all. If you really think about it, if we count Nintendo Today as a game, that would mean the Super Mario Wiki would be considered a game.
====Comments====
====Does ''[[Super Mario World: Mario to Yoshi no Bōken Land]]'' move to the list?====
Uh, SeanWheeler? You may want to see [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]]. There is no canon in Super Mario. And being an "adult" show shouldn't prevent text from being referenced in normal articles given the wiki does not censor anything. (The last point on [[MarioWiki:Courtesy]], and the set of arguing over [[Bob Hoskins]]'s page quote.) I guess one could discount the sketches on account of them as parodies, but given the "no canon" bit that seems hard to justify. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:01, November 3, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
:It's been a hot minute, but aren't the 2014 E3 sketches not even a part of Robot Chicken, anyways? Just produced by the same team behind them. It would be like prohibiting mention of [[Ubisoft]] because they developed those South Park games. And even if the sketches for E3 2014 were particularly "adult", [[List of unofficial media acknowledged by Nintendo#Super Hornio Brothers|overwhelmingly adult content hasn't stopped us before]]. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 09:43, November 4, 2024 (EST)
::We might not have any canon, but Robot Chicken sketches are like the Family Guy cutaways. We don't cover Family Guy despite having a few Mario cameos. They only get listed in [[List of references in animated television]]. And no, it's nothing like prohibiting Ubisoft for their South Park games. We have [[Ubisoft]] for their involvement in the [[Mario + Rabbids (series)|Mario + Rabbids]] crossover series. We don't cover South Park. Prohibiting the mention of Ubisoft for just one unrelated series would be ridiculous. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 15:25, November 9, 2024 (EST)
:::So what if these are "like the Family Guy cutaways"? We don't cover Family Guy because we're not a Family Guy wiki. As far as I know, no Mario cameos in Family Guy were officially authorised by Nintendo, so it couldn't get its own article anyway. Meanwhile, these sketches were officially posted by Nintendo and featured Mario characters prominently. As for the part of your comment about Ubisoft and South Park, you've just described the point Camwoodstock was making by bringing that up. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:59, November 9, 2024 (EST)
{{@|ThePowerPlayer}} Looking at these sketches, why not create an article covering them? It would be inconsistent not to cover them separately as well, not just as sections of other articles. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 13:26, November 4, 2024 (EST)
:The proposal is to cover them in "Other appearances" sections, which are [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Define the scope of "Other appearances" sections|supposed to cover things without articles]]. Also, to my knowledge, they don't exactly have an official title that we could use. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:32, November 4, 2024 (EST)
::This is exactly why I brought it up. It would be weird not to have a page on them when all other content does. Lack of an official title never stopped us either :) <br>[[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 03:42, November 5, 2024 (EST)
:::My point is that not "all other content" has a page, and that's what "Other appearances" sections are for. I don't think these short, nameless skits from an E3 presentation that are more about Nintendo in general than specifically Mario are really in need of an article when this proposal passing would mean their entire relevance to Mario would already be covered on the wiki. They aren't even the only skits with Mario characters from an E3 presentation, E3 2019 has an appearance from Bowser. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:34, November 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Exactly. Making an article would just lead to a lot of unnecessary descriptions of content that has nothing to do with the ''Super Mario'' franchise. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 19:44, November 5, 2024 (EST)
===Require citations for dates===
;Yes
Recently, a proposal decided that not sourcing a foreign name puts the article into a meta category of "unsourced foreign names". But I'd say a similar idea should be implemented to dates for things such as media releases, company foundations, and game, company and system defunction. Because, for example, there's been many times where I've seen an exact release date pinpointed and I think "where did they get that date from?", and after a bit of research, I can't find any reliable source with said exact release date. Dates being sorted like this would be nice.
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal. It was an interactive VHS tape that required the user to press buttons at certain points.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} By our own definition of it being an "interactive game", yes, even if it's just a VHS analogue to those Play Nintendo quizzes, you can get a question wrong and stuff will still happen.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Per all.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Starluxe}}<br>'''Deadline''': November 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT
;No
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote.
====Support====
====Do [[Gallery:Miscellaneous_merchandise#Rides|rides]] move to the list?====
#{{User|Starluxe}} Per my proposal
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I agree.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Wait, how is this ''not'' already policy??? Per proposal.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} I personally find that a lot of release dates for games on the internet come from hearsay, and copying what other sites say without actually double checking that info, so this would be great for guaranteeing accuracy.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Mario}} The next time Peach asks Mario out, I am sooo citing this proposal.
====Oppose====
;Yes
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal. They were made by [[Banpresto]], usable in arcades, and required money to play.
====Comments====
;No
What source you think is acceptable for release dates? I personally use GameFAQs. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:05, November 2, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} You don't really interact with it aside from sitting on it; if there was a more game-ified aspect to it, kinda like Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car, maybe? But as it stands, this is a little too non-interactive.
:GameFAQs isn't officially related to Nintendo, right? If so, then no. It needs to be an official source. Because if anything, GameFAQs' release dates could be taken from another unofficial source, making that an unacceptable source. {{User:Starluxe/sig}} 13:00, November 6, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote.
::But that is a major problem of mine regarding old games, especially those that came out before the internet. Game sites such as GameFAQs and Wikipedia have it down all the time, especially those as old as GFAQs, but I don't think Nintendo themselves keep track of it too much barring recent titles or titles they are currently selling, with rare cases of them citing release dates in games themselves (like Super Smash Bros. Brawl's chronicles). For example, Wikipedia does cite Mario Kart: Double Dash's release date in a financial statement by Nintendo but other games such as the original Thousand Year Door's release dates remain unsourced. I'll need an answer to what sources you plan on using to cite the release data. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:28, November 7, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Rykitu}} Once again, rides are not games. Except ''[[Būbū Mario]]''. That is a game.
:::This has come up [[Talk:Donkey Kong (game)#Arcade release dates|a]] [[Talk:VS. Super Mario Bros.|few]] [[Talk:Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest#NA release date|times]], but the state of proper video game release date archival is dreadful. I would argue it was around the time of digital storefronts that they were catalogued more seriously. I really want to support this proposal, but first, I think it's really important to decide what type of sources are usable. Sites like GameFAQs and MobyGames? They're actually user-contributed, in theory, I guess. You can contribute there. The problem is that I don't know anything about their curation. Unlike a wiki, you can't look back. Someone can contribute something else that overrides your contribution, and you won't know why (probably something to the effect of "another online source"). So, I wouldn't take sites like them, despite search results doing a good job of making sure they're one of the first things you see. Wikipedia has taken to citing the copyright office, but as far as I know, details like that are not always the same thing as an actual release/airing date. My suggestion is that this needs a whole source priority of its own, preferably contemporary sources like magazines and press releases. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
Seeing how this could also apply to other things like defunction dates, I've added so to my explanation. {{User:Starluxe/sig}} 12:16, November 7, 2024 (EDT)
====Do the remaining water games on the list of merchandise move to the list?====
'''Deadline''': April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
===Move "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to "Peach" and "Daisy"===
;Yes
Earlier this year, I made [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|a proposal]] suggesting that the article "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy". That proposal was rejected, with one of the main reasons being that people were concerned about the inconsistency this would cause with Princess Peach. Since then, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles|another similar proposal]] has passed that suggested moving the Koopaling articles to just their first names. So, I would like to suggest once again that I think "Princess Daisy" should be moved to "Daisy", except that this time I'm also including the option to move "Princess Peach" to "Peach".
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves in the original proposal's comments; they are interactive games with a blatant physical, mechanical element to them. The lack of "video" isn't a hurdle so long as the ''Game & Watch'' games exist.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Camwoodstock twice more.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Per all.
This proposal is ''not'' suggesting that we stop using these titles for these characters ''completely''. We should continue to do as we have done: use whatever name is used in a specific work when talking about a character's appearance in that work. I am only suggesting that the articles themselves be moved to "Peach" and "Daisy", which I believe to be their ''primary'' names.
;No
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per my board game vote. This is not comparable to Game & Watch.
====The case for moving Daisy's article====
====The Comment Games====
You can read my full argument for Daisy in my previous proposal about this subject, so I'll be brief here. My key point is that '''Daisy has never been called Princess Daisy in any game as her primary English name'''. It's certainly not an ''un''official title by any means, but she is and always has been called "Daisy", with no honorific, considerably more often and more prominently than her full title.
{{@|Nintendo101}}, unless us and everyone we know has been using it ''very'' wrong, we don't really see how the board game vote applies to [[Nintendo Today!]]... ;P <s>not that it matters, as we agree that Nintendo Today! would be overkill to include either way unless they were more interactive, but y'know,</s> {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:23, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
:Also, Wikipedia does italicise ''{{wp|Jenga}}''. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:30, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
====The case for moving Peach's article====
If we decide to keep the non-video games off the list of games, I feel like a name change to "List of video games" might be a good idea (though the link on the main page can keep it shortened to "Games" for simplicity if need be). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:43, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
The case for Peach is much weaker than the case for Daisy. Unlike Daisy, Peach is actually called by her full title in-game as her primary English name sometimes. In fact, as was pointed out in the comments of the previous proposal, Nintendo has [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/puzzles/jigsaw-puzzle-princess-peach-daisy-rosalina/ on occasion] used the names "Princess Peach" (with the honorific) and "Daisy" (without) together.
Nonetheless, her highness is called "Peach" in-game considerably more often than "Princess Peach". (To be clear, my point is not that she's ''never'' called "Princess Peach", just that "Peach" appears to be her ''primary'' in-game name, which is what the [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policy]] recommends.) I believe the strongest example here is ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]'', which uses "Peach" despite having no shortage of playable drivers with excessively unweildy names.
:{{@|Hewer}} I have an idea. Could we add a new header on the list of games (underneath the iOS stuff and the ''LEGO Super Mario'' Roku/Sky Italia games) for "physical games" or "non-electronic games", thus keeping the base list intact up to said section? [[User:Nelsonic|Nelsonic]] ([[User talk:Nelsonic|talk]]) 13:21, April 8, 2025 (EDT)
::I suppose that'd work too. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:25, April 9, 2025 (EDT)
'''Proposer''': {{User|janMisali}}<br>
If [[Play Nintendo]] is added to the list, would we include every game in the "Play" category or will we also include the quizzes, polls, puzzles, matching and painting games? If that is the case, I am warning you that there are hundreds of those and would probably take like 75% of the whole page. {{User:Rykitu/sig}}
'''Deadline''': November 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Move both princesses====
:{{@|Rykitu}} I was thinking that for the duplicates, we could link to a handful of the most relevant ones and then stick something along the lines of "''For a complete list of [[Play Nintendo]] quizzes, see [[list of Play Nintendo skill quizzes]]''" underneath the segment. [[User:Nelsonic|Nelsonic]] ([[User talk:Nelsonic|talk]]) 13:11, April 9, 2025 (EDT)
#{{User|JanMisali}} First choice, as proposer.
::Ok, that works! {{User:Rykitu/sig}}
#{{User|Tails777}} Primary choice. Even if Peach uses her title more often, MANY games usually relegate to just calling the princesses by their names without their titles. And since Bowser is also referred to as just "Bowser" over "King Bowser" (a titled name used about as often as Princess Peach), I feel all three can just use their names without titles.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Only choice, per proposal. I was part of the opposition to the previous proposal, but this one fixes the issue I had with it. And anyway, in basically any game where Peach is playable, the thing written under her on the character select is just "Peach", same as Daisy, so this feels like the natural solution.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} "Princess" is just a title of Peach's name, and most appearances refer to her as simply Peach. The name for "Daisy" is very seldomly preceded by "Princess". Compare to Dr. Mario, where the "Dr." is an inherent part of his name, rather than a full title.
#{{User|Altendo}} If we can remove names from Sonic characters, the Koopalings, and even named identifiers like [[Grodus|Sir]] and [[Bobbery|Admiral]], there is no reason to ''not'' do this. Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, and the original proposal that spurred this one.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Things are headed in this direction, let's rip the bandage off.
#{{User|Arend}} I'm more comfortable with removing the "Princess" title from both articles rather than just Daisy's. Yes, Peach is often called "Princess Peach", but I find it comparable to Koopa minions referring to Bowser as "Lord Bowser" or "King Bowser" (or, in the case of game titles such as ''Super Princess Peach'' or ''Princess Peach Showtime'', it's comparable to the ''Super Mario'' games, which bear this title even if there's no Super Mushrooms to turn Mario into Super Mario).
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Fine, second choice.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per all.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} First choice, per proposal. The princess titles for both characters can definitely be seen as their full names, but it seems to occupy a similar space to "King Bowser" in most games.</strike><br>
<strike>#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Altendo, specifically</strike>
====Only move Peach====
===Uniformly indicate subjects' work of origin in infobox headers===
For some infoboxes like [[Template:M&LSS enemy|RPG enemy infoboxes]] or [[Template:DKC TV episode infobox|show episode infoboxes]], the work is displayed in a header (like "''Paper Mario'' enemy" or "''Super Mario World'' episode"). Others, like the generic [[Template:Level infobox|level infobox]] (which has only "Level" in a header) and the [[Template:Minigame infobox|minigame]] infobox, indicate the game in a regular field.
====Only move Daisy====
I propose all subject infoboxes with a "Game" field or similar (exceptions and specific details below) adopt the work-in-header-cell format (like "''Super Mario World'' level"), and the "Game" or "Appears in" field be changed to "Reappearances" (present only in cases where the subject reappears, like retro ''Mario Kart'' courses or returning ''WarioWare'' microgames).
#{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, as proposer.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Second choice, since Daisy has stronger reason to be moved.
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary choice. Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" far less than Peach is referred to as "Princess Peach", with some modern games still using Peach's title. Daisy is almost always just referred to as "Daisy".
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per the case being made for Daisy. Games and other media as recent as ''Princess Peach Showtime'' and the Mario Movie alternate between naming Peach with and without the honorific, so MarioWiki:Naming cannot enforce one over the other based on recency, frequency, or source priority. None of this can be said about Daisy, however. Some have argued that "Daisy" is chosen for functional purposes within games, i.e. is an attempt to keep the character's name short in areas where you can allocate a piece of text only so much memory--and I'd understand the argument, if it weren't for cases like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)", "Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer)", and "Purple Koopa (Freerunning)" which push that memory limit much further than "Princess Daisy" ever could. I also question why the naming scheme of either character has to remain consistent with the other just for the sake of it; if their patently similar appearance and roles is the sole thrust behind this point of view, what's stopping [[Rosalina]] from being moved to "Princess Rosalina", then? That's an official title, too. Better lock in and make the facts readily apparent on the fan encyclopedia.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne. I see the argument for moving Peach as well, but feel more strongly that Daisy should be moved since she's rarely called "Princess Daisy".
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice. We need to do ''something'' about Daisy, at least.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Koopa con Carne.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Secondary choice, Daisy is pretty much never referred to as "Princess Daisy" as her primary name.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per Koopa con Carne.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all. I voted on the other one so that both Princesses could not get changed, but I'm also going to vote this because I agree that Daisy should just be called Daisy, specifically.
====Keep both princesses the same====
Why do that? In order to maintain consistency in the presentation of this type of info, and also because it makes more sense than having the work be indicated in a regular field, as the work is not an internal attribute of the subject (like a level's time or code, or an enemy's stats), but part of its context. Also, making work identification more clear is useful when the same infoboxes are widely used for subjects belonging to different games and series.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Stop shortening names! Seriously, I knew this was next after the Koopaling proposal.
#{{User|Mario}} I don't think any these moves are great (especially the one where "Shadow the Hedgehog" was shortened, I dislike that one). They greatly hinder searches on the wiki (in Peach's case, it's going to conflict with the fruit), and more people online are going to search "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to find the character. What these moves are going to do, like with those older name moves (which I am ''not'' on board with) is going to have searches rely on redirects. I'm not sure how much SEO and search engine discoverability is going to be impacted (Porple confirmed with me on Discord that it will certainly hinder discoverability on search engines but it's not catastrophic, just something to keep in mind) but I think there is a great reason we chose [[Chuckster]] over Pianta Thrower. These are distinct, recognizable names. Don't fix what isn't broken, and the current method of piping and using redirects for the shortened, overlapping names seemed to serve us well enough.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Mario. I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. Some of these make sense (E. Gadd is rarely called Elvin, the Koopalings' full names seem to be mostly phased out these days), but the Sonic proposal was a misstep IMO. Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it. I feel less strongly about Daisy, admittedly.
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Upon further thought and seeing Mario and Waluigi Time's votes, I'm inclined to think that moving pages like this is probably not such a wise idea, especially as it hurts searchability. I've removed my original vote for merging both and now consider this my primary one, though I think that moving Daisy would still be alright with me.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Yeah, no; per all. We'd need a counterproposal... The Sonic proposal already was a stupid enough decision as-is and this... this is no different; if this proposal fails, then i'd support reversing the Sonic proposal.
#{{User|MeritC}} Per all; first of all, in terms of a fan managed encyclopedia like this, it's still the best route to keep the "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" article titles for this Wiki, even though certain and recent games like the sports, kart racing, and Mario Party games just address the two as "Peach" and "Daisy" in their names. Plus, in terms of linking their names to the respective articles, we're already making sure that "Peach" links to the "Princess Peach" article and "Daisy" links to the "Princess Daisy" article anyway.
#{{User|Arend}} Secondary choice, the current names are fine too.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Waluigi Time
#{{User|Dwhitney}} Per all. Also, Daisy is referred to as Princess Daisy in ''Mario Tennis Aces''.
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Per all, in particular Mario and WT. As for the SEO point, while that certainly does matter (even outside of "corporate" contexts), in this case it's just clearer to denote the princesses with their titles. SEO happens to be a happy by-product of that.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. Since these proposals are made with following the rules in mind, then the obvious alternative is to change the rules. The naming guidelines have nothing about full names and titles, that should be changed so that conditions pertaining to them to allow use of extending their titles based on official material over (identifiers). Let's use Princess Peach as an example. "Princess Peach" was first seen in Yoshi's Safari then later in Mario 64 and here and there ever since. Thus "Princess" is part of Peach and should be kept as "Princess Peach" to distinquish from Peach the fruit. Same with Roy Koopa and Roy from Mario Golf, the latter doesn't really need an identifier if the former is moved back to his full name. On the other hand, I've been also thinking such a policy would have to be restrictive: "Princess Peach Toadstool" wouldn't be legit because it wasn't seen in Yoshi's Safari first, "King Bowser" wouldn't be either for similar reasons, "Boo Diddly" wouldn't count because it's only seen in Mario 3 and its remakes, and Mollusque-Lanceur's full name won't because it comes from a secondary source and its length may be an issue. There's probably a lot more that needs to be figured out, those are just examples that came to my mind.
#{{User|MCD}} Per all.
====Princess Comments, Peach====
That would affect every infobox that has a "Game" field currently, the [[Template:Course infobox|course infobox]], and infoboxes for specific games.
@SeanWheeler: Why is shortening names a bad thing? If the shortened name is the more current title of a character or game, shouldn't the article be moved to the more current title? The length of the titles of the characters is not the main issue here; it's how current those titles are. [[User:Mari0fan100|Mari0fan100]] ([[User talk:Mari0fan100|talk]]) 20:41, November 9, 2024 (EST)
@Mario: Given "Peach" and "Daisy" are very commonly used names, and also shorter (thus easier to type), I can't imagine it being that bad for searches. The shortened names are also "distinct, recognizable names", and the ones Nintendo is fine to use for the characters (as well as what I usually hear fans call them), so why shouldn't we follow suit (especially given all the other renaming proposals, some of which, e.g. [[Talk:Bobbery#Changing Admiral Bobbery to just Bobbery|Bobbery]] and [[Talk:TEC#Move to TEC|TEC]], had literally no opposition)?<br>@Waluigi Time: I would argue Princess Daisy isn't really "still in frequent use". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:13, November 10, 2024 (EST)
In the end, the infoboxes affected by this change would be:
:I think if I wanted to look up the Mario character named "Daisy" in Google, I would use "Princess Daisy" to try to get more results that aren't daisies. Mario's popular, but not the center of all reality. (Though a company selling BB guns somehow beats out the plant.) Google suggests I may also want to use "Daisy mario". Bobbery is unique enough to be the main topic of that name. TEC has technology companies beat out the character unless "TEC-XX" is used.
*[[Template:Board infobox]]
:Super Mario Wiki appears to be far enough ahead in results that if Google recognizes the search is for a character this site is first up, even in cases like Bobbery, TEC, and Ludwig. But I'm no search engineer, so I don't know if changing the article names can impact this.[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 06:29, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:Course infobox]]
::I was more referring to searches on the wiki itself. Google searches shouldn't really be what determines page names in my opinion, or we'd have a good case to move [[Pauline]] to "Mayor Pauline" (or to add "mario" in brackets to a ton of article titles). Either way, I feel like having to search "daisy mario" instead of "princess daisy" (as I imagine many people already do) isn't that big a deal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:44, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:DDRMM song infobox]]
:::As I alluded to, my reasoning mostly concerns Peach, but I don't really want to put my official support behind a Daisy move either, which is why I chose that option. IMO, external searchability absolutely should be something taken into consideration when it's relevant, but not the deciding factor. At the end of the day, a wiki is here for its readers, so let's not make it needlessly harder on them to find things if we can help it. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:56, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:DK64 level infobox]]
::::I'd think using the name the character most commonly goes by would make it more intuitive to find. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:15, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:DKC level infobox]]
::::I'm not convinced that switching to a shorter name has any negative influence on external searchability regardless of if that should be a priority or not. We're still on the front page of Google results for "Shadow the Hedgehog wiki", and the only results that come up before our "Shadow (character)" article are from Wikipedia and dedicated ''Sonic'' wikis. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 13:51, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:DKC3 world infobox]]
:::::I don't understand why the topic of SEO is still part of the debate. It's a misplaced priority. This site is a community-run educational resource, not a corporate product that you're incentivized to optimize every little aspect of in the name of clicks. Look at Fandom--outwardly, it provides the former, but it's also an ad-ridden hellhole artificially planted on the front page of Google results with no regard to the quality or accuracy of the content herein. I'm questioning whether it's worth compromising accuracy so the wiki could compete with such actors. Not to say this site would exist without traffic and participation at all, every project needs funding and other manners of support, but, like<br>guys,<br>This is the biggest resource on the Internet for the most popular video game franchise on the planet.<br>Do you really believe losing 0.005% of total searches because Glup Shitto got renamed to the less popular but more accurate "Shart Faqeer" is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:33, November 10, 2024 (EST), [[Special:Diff/4429048|edited]] 10:55, November 11, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:DKJB kingdom infobox]]
::::::I think "corporate product" is a bit of a misread. Rather, there is little value in maintaining an encyclopedia that people cannot find. I do not know if it impacts this particular case (i.e. when I last searched "wendy mario" or "wendy o. koopa" on Google, [[Wendy|our article]] still shows up near or at the top, regardless of name), but I do not think it is invalid to keep in mind.
*[[Template:DKR course infobox]]
::::::I think it is worth keeping in mind that the Super Mario Wiki has different goals than a character-selection screen or a level-selection screen, which typically prefer simple truncated names. ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' refers to a boss as "[[Larry]]" in [[Larry's Torpedo Castle|one context]] and as "Larry Koopa" in [[Larry's Groundless Battle|another]]. An encyclopedic reference that encompasses many series and subjects may similarly best support its information by adopting fuller names with discretion. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:22, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:DLC infobox]]
:::::::The character select screen name shortening argument has already been addressed: names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)" are longer than "Princess Daisy", yet the former is used while the latter is not. Clearly Nintendo just has a preference for the shorter name, so we should too. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:59, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:Golf course infobox]]
::::::::This is not consistent though. On the character-selection screen in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'', you can select "[[Yoshi (species)|Light-Blue Yoshi]]." The standees for this character's name is truncated as "[https://youtu.be/9kJ2eVPxu1w?si=dQ3ZlK_uMZ3TSHS4&t=342 L. Blue Yoshi]." The ''Star Fox'' protagonist goes by "[[Fox]]" on the character-selection screen for the ''Super Smash Bros.'' titles, but goes by "Fox McCloud" on the costume list for ''[[Super Mario Maker]]''. Our pink princess character goes by "[[Princess Peach]]" on the [[:File:Princess Peach Showtime Box Art.jpg|box for her standalone game]], and simply as "Peach" in the game itself. Is it invalid to suggest whether a character goes by a truncated or full name is really context dependent, and less about the phasing out of monikers or surnames for certain characters? If the former, is Super Mario Wiki inherently not the platform where full names would be helpful? And if it is not, why? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:07, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:Kart infobox]]
:::::::::The length of a character's name can undoubtedly be subject to technical limitations in a game. I personally just don't think this is necessarily the case with Daisy's name as of today, and my view is that the wiki should be observing what the most current official consensus on those names is. The standees in ''Wonder'' are a highly particular instance of name rendering even within the game; the character selection screen [https://youtu.be/Q4Gp9aZKwEk?t=7 otherwise uses "Light-Blue Yoshi" and "Daisy" simultaneously], and I'd hazard a guess that players are more likely to make better note of those than how they are rendered in the standee menu. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:41, November 10, 2024 (EST), edited 19:50, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:Level infobox]]
:::::::As people have related in this discussion, Mario Wiki tends to be pushed forward in Google results for a Mario character. It is decidedly not an encyclopedia people cannot find. Porplemontage can probably conjure some projections, he has the data for this sort of thing after all, but I'm confident given the wiki's size and popularity that Mario Wiki will remain in the top search results for "peach mario" and "daisy mario" whether the characters retain or lose their mantle titles. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:04, November 10, 2024 (EST), edited 19:12, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:LM ghost infobox]]
:::::{{@|JanMisali}} Same with googling "shadow sonic wiki". Even just "shadow wiki" still brings up his Mario Wiki article on the second page on my end, which is pretty impressing considering the breadth of coverage either of the words "shadow" and "wiki" have on the Internet. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:48, November 10, 2024 (EST)
*[[Template:LM portrait infobox]]
*[[Template:LM room infobox]]
*[[Template:Minigame infobox]]
*[[Template:Mission infobox]]
*[[Template:M&L attack infobox]]
*[[Template:M&S episode infobox]]
*[[Template:M&S event infobox]]
*[[Template:M+RSOH planet infobox]]
*[[Template:MKDD kart infobox]]
*[[Template:MSM court infobox]]
*[[Template:PM item infobox]]
*[[Template:PMCS location infobox]]
*[[Template:PMTOK location infobox]]
*[[Template:Power Shot infobox]]
*[[Template:Race course infobox]]
*[[Template:SMG boss infobox]]
*[[Template:Space infobox]]
*[[Template:Tennis court infobox]]
*[[Template:Tour infobox]]
*[[Template:World infobox]]
@MeritC: "We'd have to change links" is never a good argument. If this passes, a bot will take care of fixing all the links. That's how we were able to [[Talk:Super Mario (franchise)#Move to "Super Mario (franchise)" -- proposal|rename the "Super Mario (franchise)" page]], probably one of the most linked to pages on the entire wiki, with no issue. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:59, November 10, 2024 (EST)
(As for [[Template:Space infobox|spaces]], [[Template:Kart infobox|karts and kart parts]], [[Template:PM item infobox|''Paper Mario'' item]] and [[Template:Power Shot infobox|power shots]], which have an "Appears in" field, I suggest we indicate the ''series'' in the header instead (''Mario Party'', ''Mario Kart'', ''Paper Mario'' and ''Mario Tennis''), since they are not really "tied" to the game they debuted in, but are series-wide elements.)
{{@|Dwhitney}} Where in ''Mario Tennis Aces'' is the name "Princess Daisy" used? I can't find any evidence of her being called anything but "Daisy" in that game. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 10:27, November 11, 2024 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro Hammer}}<br/>
:It's right there in the beginning of the story mode. [https://youtu.be/bQYgz5RlAQI?t=315 This video, around the 5:15 time mark]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:19, November 11, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT
::Ah, missed that. Thanks! But regardless, it's definitely not her ''primary'' name in that game. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:25, November 11, 2024 (EST)
It should also be noted that [https://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/Super_Mario_Land_-_Manual_-_GB.pdf the ''Super Mario Land'' manual] consistently refers to Daisy as "Princess Daisy" in the story section and gameplay section; the character section is the only place in the manual where she's referred to as just "Daisy" (plus mistakenly calling her "Daisy Princess" as well). The manual of [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_GameCube/Manual/formated/Mario_Kart-_Double_Dash_-_Nintendo.pdf Mario Kart: Double Dash] refers to her as "Princess Daisy" once, too. I get that these aren't exactly "in-game" materials, but that should put "Princess Daisy" on the same level as the Koopalings' full names.<br>Do ''Super Smash Bros.'' games count too, btw? [https://youtu.be/U3wCxICjLPM?si=UEy9xJJ3Y3xX9Ee6 Palutena has referred to her as "Princess Daisy"]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:43, November 11, 2024 (EST)
:I mentioned ''Smash Bros.'' in my previous proposal about this. She's called Daisy everywhere else in that game, including elsewhere in that same Palutena's Guidance conversation. But yes, I agree that "Princess Daisy" is a name used on the same level as the full names of the Koopalings, and I think we should use it the same way we use the Koopalings' full names (ie. not in the article title). {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:25, November 11, 2024 (EST)
@SmokedChili: There is no universe where peach the fruit that made minor appearances in five games could get naming priority on this wiki over Peach the major character with hundreds of appearances. That's why [[Peach]] already redirects to the character, and [[Peach (fruit)]] already has an identifier - shortening the name wouldn't change that. The same goes for Roy - the Mario Tennis character always had an identifier for years before Roy Koopa's name was shortened, because the former is significantly less prominent and less likely to be what people searching "Roy" are looking for. (Also, Mollusque-Lanceur's full name recently appeared in Nintendo Music, which I don't think is a "secondary source", and [[The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens|length wouldn't be an issue]].) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:35, November 11, 2024 (EST)
====Support: replace regular "Game" fields and similar in infoboxes with a header cell====
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I like uniformity.
#{{User|Salmancer}} I see the appeal.
{{@|SmokedChili}} Peach is not called "Princess Peach" at any point in ''Super Mario 64''. She is called "Princess Toadstool", "Peach", "the Princess", and "Princess Toadstool, Peach". {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:48, November 11, 2024 (EST)
====Oppose: do not change any infoboxes====
===Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s)===
====Comments (Uniformly indicate subjects' work of origin in infobox headers)====
''Mario Kart Tour'' has quite the reputation on this wiki in terms of pages, at one time nearly forming the top ten of the largest pages here in terms of bit size. However, what was glossed over was the size of Tour's template, being large enough to hold several templates within itself, and making the page, should the user click on it, almost double in length, more so with the other templates open. Using [[DS DK Pass]] as an example, a page for a race course that doesn't have a lot of information on it making for a relatively quick read, is now nearly half taken up by the monstrously large ''Mario Kart Tour'' template.
My understanding is that Power Shots are exclusive to exactly two Mario Tennis games, ''[[Mario Power Tennis]]'' and ''[[Mario Tennis: Power Tour]]''. And of them, only twelve appear in both games. At that point, you might as well just have those twelve them say "Mario Power Tennis Power Shot" and say they reappear in ''Mario Tennis: Power Tour''. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 13:45, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
A total of four sub templates exist within the ''Mario Kart Tour'' template: Characters (and their skins), Vehicle Parts, Courses, and Other (miscellaneous). For example, if the Courses template were split off and applied to DS DK Pass' page, it would make for a much more palatable experience for those looking for courses found in ''Tour'', rather than making the reader scroll for a centuries and looking for it amongst a sea of numerous skins and kart parts.
===Change previous and next entries cell in infoboxes to include actual entry names and change directory link===
{{early notice|April 18, 2025}}
Currently, the previous and next cell in infoboxes for TV show episodes, levels and worlds have a few issues:
*The previous and next entries are displayed as "<<" and ">>", which make it more cumbersome to simply figure out what they are, since one may have to hover the cursor over it, and it is even worse on mobile, where you may have to open the link to learn what it is);
*It gets always more confusing and messy when more than one entry is displayed, especially for levels that link to secret levels, displayed as "**", as it is not immediately understandable what that means;
*Levels and worlds have a "directory of levels/worlds" link which just links to the [[:Category:Levels|Level category]] or [[World|World article]]. It is kind of pointless.
'''Proposer''': {{User|MightyMario}}<br>
I propose we change that section to another format that:
'''Deadline''': November 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT
*Includes a header labeling the section;
*Uses "previous" and "next" labels;
*Lists the names for the entries, and, for secret levels, attach a "(secret)" note to it.
*Links to the relevant section listing the entries in the specific article for the work;
====Support====
Since some articles may have longer lists of entries (such as [[The Desert Mystery|some levels]] in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'', we can have an alternate format that stacks the previous and next cells instead, since it appears laid out more nicely. It may make that section take a lot more space, but cases like these are very few compared to most which have just one or two entries each side.
#{{User|MightyMario}} I heartily endorse this proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} I kinda agree with this. I feel this would be a bit more organized too, so people don't have to scroll through loads of characters, karts and other things just to find the tracks section. I have found myself on numerous occasions jumping from track articles and with ''Tour's'' template, it was rather irritating searching through massive sections of characters and tours just to find tracks. I support this idea.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} We've split navigation templates for [[Template:NSMBW levels|much less]], this makes sense for the sheer amount of content in the game.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} A navigation template that buries content in an area larger than an entire computer screen defeats the purpose.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Agreed with all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|Dark Jonathan}} I didn't know Tour templates gave so many problems, but hey, that's a good proposal.
#{{User|BMfan08}} I was just thinking about this the other day when I was changing tense on tour articles. It's definitely a lot to take in, and it's also overlooked because people don't put into a template quite as much as they do a page. I agree with this idea.
====Oppose====
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"
|-
!colspan=3 style="background: pink;" | See examples
|colspan=2 | '''Next →'''<br>[[Color-Switch Dungeon]]<br>[[Secrets of Shova Mansion]]<br>[[Sunbaked Desert Palace]]<br>[[Badge Challenge Crouching High Jump II]]<br>[[KO Arena Sunbaked Skirmish]]
|-
|colspan=2 style="text-align: center;" | [[Super Mario Bros. Wonder#Locations|List of levels]]
|}
|}
====Comments====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro Hammer}}<br>
I think alternatively, they could be given different collapsible sections, like we do with the galleries template. But I agree it is overwhelmingly enormous. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:58, November 10, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 25, 2025, 23:59 GMT
We're talking about the navigation template at the bottom of these pages, right? Because that's the only Tour-related template on the DS DK Pass article (subpages notwithstanding) and it's indeed quite huge. If we do split it off into several subtemplates, I suppose it'd be comparable to various levels from specific platformer titles having a navbox template for themselves instead of sharing a primary nabvox template with the rest of that game's content (e.g. [[Super Bell Hill]] featuring {{tem|SM3DW levels}} instead of {{tem|SM3DW}}); or the existence of various navigation templates for the various microgames or minigames in specific ''WarioWare'' or ''Mario Party'' title. So while it's atypical for us to split ''Mario Kart''-specific nav templates, it's not unheard of for us to split off nav templates in the first place. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:04, November 10, 2024 (EST)
====Support: change how previous and next entries are presented in infoboxes====
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} Per proposal.
==Miscellaneous==
#{{User|PopitTart}} Good god, yes '''PLEASE'''. I was ''flabbergasted'' the first time I tried navigating levels in SMW and was redirected to a category of just. Every Single Level in Every Single Game the Wiki Covers. What use does that possibly have??
===Either remove non-English names from cartoon dubs that weren't overseen by Nintendo or affiliated companies, or allow English names from closed captions===
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} You make a lot of good points about the current problems, and this is a natural solution to 'em. I'm not sure about "episode chronology" or especially "level sequence" as a header for the section, though — those terms describe something that these sections are just a small slice of. Maybe, say, "surrounding levels" or "surrounding episodes"? (Side note, but there's something magical to me about proposals being able to overturn longstanding bits of wiki policy. These infobox sections have been formatted that way for at least fifteen years...)
"What does one have to do with the other?" You'll see!
#[[User:AmossGuy|AmossGuy]] ([[User talk:AmossGuy|talk]]) This simply shows the information more clearly, I think. And I like Ahemtoday's suggestion of "surrounding levels" for the terminology.
#{{User|Sparks}} '''YES!!'''
Back in 2021, there was a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#"Closed caption of the Mario cartoons"|proposal]] to allow closed captions used on ''Mario'' cartoons uploaded or streamed officially online to be used as sources on the wiki. It encountered massive opposition, with one comment left by a user in a previous discussion acting as the cornerstone of the opposition's rationale. The link intended to lead to that comment, seen under that proposal, doesn't do its job any more, so I'm copy-pasting it here for your convenience.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This is ''way'' overdue, especially after more non-linear games like ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' but even thanks to games as old as ''[[Super Mario World]]''. Even for far more linear affairs, like your ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]es'' or your ''[[Donkey Kong 3: Dai Gyakushū]]s'', we quite prefer the aesthetics of actually listing the page names over what we currently have; though we do feel it important to ask, in the case of games where levels are named stuff like just, "World 7-1" and "World 7-2" with nothing distinguishing them, would we just visually display them as "World 7-1" and "World 7-2", or would we include the parenthetical, and it'd display as "World 7-1 (Super Mario Bros. Special)" and "World 7-2 (Super Mario Bros. Special)"? While not a dealbreaker, it would be annoying, and we'd suggest... Not. ;P
<blockquote><span class="quote" style="font-family:Times New Roman;font-size:11pt;font-style:italic">“re closed caption: The relation between WildBrain and video streaming platforms like Netflix is the same one Nintendo has with retaillers like Gamespot: meaning the owner of the property sells the product to the retailler/streaming website, and they may supply other material (like artwork, press releases, etc) to help the client market the product. However, that doesn't mean everything the client does with the product is now official; for instance, Gamespot has in the past created fake placeholder boxarts for Mario games using edited official artwork. Gamestop may be an authorized (or "official") retailler of Mario products but it doesn't make those placeholder boxarts by association as they were made entirely by Gamespot without inputs from the creators of the source material.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all! huge fan of this
#{{User|Hewer}} Good idea.
“In that respect, closed captions fall in the same category as placeholder retailler-made boxarts. Closed captions are made by people with no relation to the source material or access to behind-the-scenes material like script, and who are just writing down what they hear by ear. They are not an acceptable source for spellings.”</span>
#{{User|Pseudo}} This would be a huge improvement on the current infoboxes in a number of ways. Also, I would agree with Camwoodstock's suggestion to ''not'' include the parentheticals in level name links.
~ '''{{user|Glowsquid}}, 2021'''
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
</blockquote>
#{{User|Salmancer}} Yeah, current system could use a tune-up.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Yes! This makes so much more sense. I'm surprised this hasn't been proposed earlier.
This is valid. In all this talking about what is official and what is not, I suppose it feels right to draw a concrete line somewhere. Someone who acquires the rights to use Nintendo's or one of their partners' IP to use it for a given purpose is technically an authorized party, but they're no authority themselves over the content within. Makes sense.
...Meaning the multilanguage names invoked in the proposal's title stick out all the more like a sore thumb. A good chunk of them, at least. Why would the wiki treat a studio or company that dubs and distributes syndicated Mario cartoons to a given demographic as particularly authoritative over the content? Ultimately, it's the same situation as the one described in the quote, the apparent clincher being that it's in a different language, and I apologize, but I don't see how it is consistent to prohibit third-party English subtitles but allow foreign dubs by people that are just as far-removed from the parent company. I propose a compromise.
Of course, not all foreign dubs would be off limits as sources should the second option of this proposal win. If one can provide sufficient proof that a given dub was supervised by one or more employees representing a company with authority over the original product, i.e. that the company left their mark on the endeavor, sourcing it is absolutely fine. As it stands, though, I can already point to the Romanian dubs of the Mario DIC cartoons as ineligible for sourcing given my failing to find any evidence DIC Entertainment ever put its signature on them. (This is coming from someone who contributed a significant amount of names from these dubs. Sometimes you gotta kill your darlings.)
"'''So if option 1 wins, 'Ahehehaue' is considered official again?'''"
No. That doesn't come from a closed caption, and I consider WildBrain's issue of circular sourcing to be a whole other can of worms best left out of this week's topic.
(added 17:42, October 30, 2024 (EDT)) "'''Does the proposal extend to the live-action segments of the ''Super Show''?'''"
Yes, they're within the same package.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Allow the sourcing of English closed captions from officially uploaded and streamed ''Mario'' animated works====
#{{User|Hewer}} Perhaps I just have a more liberal understanding of "official" (as an Ahehehauhe defender), but after proposals like [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Allow/prohibit fan work by former Nintendo staff|this]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Allow quotes of characters being voiced by their official actors in unofficial media|this]], and [[Talk:Fangamer#Delete this article|this]], I feel like all these should be close enough to official to be worth documenting. And aren't games like [[Hotel Mario]] a bit of a similar case, where the "official" involvement didn't go much further than licensing them?
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I think the difference between closed captions and placeholder retailer box art is that the closed captions are a(n optional) part of the media as it can be officially experienced. As such, I think it counts as "official" regardless of who did it.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Well, we would need some kind of source for names of characters that never appeared in English localizations.
#{{User|Pseudo}} These names would be familiar to some viewers of the material, if nothing else, and it seems a bit odd to consider them completely unofficial even if they weren't overseen by the original creators.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} a license is a license
#{{User|UltraMario}} Per all. I still believe that these should still count as official enough, as they are the providers of the content and it's like a license of a license.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} In the absence of any alternative names from Nintendo or the original team at DiC (since goodness knows that that isn't coming anytime soon), we feel like these are fair ''enough''. While not exactly a primary source by any means, if we permit names from various strategy guides, we feel like names from closed captions officially provided by the distributors should be fair game.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} These are no different than names from ''licensed'' strategy guides or other content written or localized by third parties.
====Remove names that originate from non-English dubs of ''Mario'' animated works that were not overseen by Nintendo or an affiliated company====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal. I found the argument persuasive.
====Do nothing====
====Oppose: keep previous and next entries presentation as is====
====Comments (closed captions vs. foreign dubs proposal)====
====Comments (Change previous and next entries presentation in infoboxes)====
Waltuh... I'm not voting right now, Waltuh... {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:01, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
i'm concerned the "List of levels" link could cause issues in games that have more than one version with differing amounts of levels (such as ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]''). what could we do about that? {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 00:24, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
:Probably have two links, one each for each version of the game? This would be my first idea. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 12:27, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
::maybe it could link to the "[game] levels" category? also as a sidenote, the tall version used for Wonder should align the Next levels to the right. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 00:13, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
{{@|Koopa con Carne}} By "not overseen by Nintendo/DiC", do you mean they gave the go-ahead but didn't have any direct involvement in production, or the dubs were produced by a third party with no permission whatsoever? I'd consider being more charitable for the former, but if it's completely unauthorized then that's basically equivalent to a bootleg or fan translation and probably shouldn't be covered. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:07, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
Can this proposal apply to [[Template:Mission infobox]]? At least everything in Category:Levels is the same kind of thing. That's untrue of the Missions category, which has achievements, levels, minigames, and those non-level scenario things all together because they're all called "missions". [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 13:45, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
:First one. The proposal only touches on the scenario where a company that airs a dubbed ''Mario'' cartoon has a license to do so from the work's owner. Anything outside of such a licensing agreement is completely unofficial, like you pointed out. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:42, October 30, 2024 (EDT), edited 17:44, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
:And let's not forget [[Template:Tour infobox]] too. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:41, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
:Yeah, this may apply to any infobox with that feature. {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 13:11, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
Added stipulation that the proposal extends to live-action ''Super Show'' segments. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:42, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
For those concerned about the "sequence/chronology" header, I based that on how Wikipedia does it (where they have a "X chronology" in their infoboxes, like [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_television_episode this]). In my opinion, it makes more sense. ('''Subjective babble warning''') The "previous and next" section is not a regular field, but a fixed "footer" to the infobox. It serves as a navigation aid to the ''topic of the infobox'' (e.g. "''Super Mario Bros.'' levels" as a whole series of articles), '''not''' as data on the current subject alone. The fact the current format doesn't even list the names, but instead just tells us "go to the previous/next entry" with << and >> evidences that function. If we named it something like "surrounding levels", it would imply that these are to be taken as ''attributes of the entry'' isolatedly, like "timer" and "difficulty", when that is not the case. It doesn't seem to matter that much, but there is much implied from just a header title. {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 13:11, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
:What is "Ahehehauhe?" [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:29, October 30, 2024 (EDT)
::It's a [https://youtu.be/OdLFZ5RAPTU clip] of a ''Super Show'' episode uploaded to YouTube by WildBrain, the current owners of most of DIC Entertainment's library (including their Mario shows). On the wiki, "Ahehehauhe" used to redirect to that episode's article because it was deemed an "official" alternate title given WildBrain's ownership status over the material, which many found outrageous since it barely passes as a "title" and is simply a transcription of the characters cackling in that clip. We don't even know if a human consciously named the clip that; it could've been a bot. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:28, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
::Now, "Ahehehauhe" isn't linked to the WildBrain-related circular sourcing issues I mentioned in the proposal (they used names from the wiki in promotional texts, which Ahaha isn't one of). However, if the same policy used for the English Super Mario Encyclopedia is to be applied to WildBrain on the same grounds, then the only case where a name they used for a given subject should be employed by the wiki is (a) if the name didn't come from the wiki in the first place, and (b) there are no other known names for that subject. Even if we're to consider Ahahahue a unique and proper way to call an episode of a TV show, its use would still be untenable under the second point. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:39, October 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::If the same ''Encyclopedia'' logic applied, shouldn't it still be a redirect at least? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
::::Ah, I didn't know that was the case with the Encyclopedia. Still, I don't think many would be keen on treating an onomatopoeia as an alternate title for an episode anyhow. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:11, November 9, 2024 (EST)
:::::Why would "Ahehehauhe" be considered as an ''alternate title for a full episode'' when it's only been used as a name for a ''15-second clip from said episode'', anyhow? It's only a short moment of the episode! I don't think other wikis for TV series consider official names of clips from a short moment of a particular episode to be an alternate title for the full episode either, whether it's some funny-sounding onomatopoeia or a more descriptive caption. I'd be all for using Ahehehauhe as a redirect if it was actually used as the name for the full episode, but it simply ''isn't'': it was only used for a small fragment and nothing more. {{User:Arend/sig}} 19:38, November 10, 2024 (EST)
Revision as of 10:27, April 13, 2025
Current time:
Tuesday, April 15th, 17:08 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.
If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
Rules
Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
A given user may author/co-author up to five ongoing proposals. Any additional proposals will be immediately canceled.
Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
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Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
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No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.
Basic proposal formatting
Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.
===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]
'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT
====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.
====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====
====Comments ([brief proposal title])====
Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.
To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."
Poll proposal formatting
As an alternative to the basic proposal format, users may choose to create a poll proposal when one larger issue can be broken down into multiple subissues that can be resolved independently of each other. In a poll proposal, each option is essentially its own mini-proposal with a deadline and suboption headings. The rules above apply to each option as if it were its own proposal: users may vote on any number of options they wish, and individual options may close early or be extended separately from the rest. If an option fails to achieve quorum or reach a consensus after three extensions, then the status quo wins for that option by default. If all options fail, then nothing will be done.
To create a poll proposal, copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the option deadlines will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]".
===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]
'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}
====[option title (e.g. Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT
;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.
;Oppose
====[option title (e.g. Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT
;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.
;Oppose
====[option title (e.g. Option 3)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT
;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.
;Oppose
====Comments ([brief proposal title])====
For the purposes of the ongoing proposals list, a poll proposal's deadline is the latest deadline of any ongoing option(s). A poll proposal is archived after all of its options have settled, and it is listed as one single proposal in the archive. It is considered to have "passed" if one or more options were approved by voters (resulting in a change from the status quo), and it is considered to have "failed" if all options were rejected by voters and no change in the status quo was made.
Talk page proposals
Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.
All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{ongoing TPP}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.
List of ongoing talk page proposals
Split Dokidoki Mario Chance! from Mario Party 4 (discuss) Deadline: April 15, 2025, 23:59 GMT
Reorganize and reduce the Mobs section of the Minecraft article (discuss) Deadline: April 16, 2025, 23:59 GMT
I have seen that it's kind of a mystery how we should note the Switch 2 Edition of a game. This question caused some controversy when I asked it in Talk:Super Mario Party Jamboree, so I have decided to involve the whole community in this to see what everyone thinks and so we all know what we should do in the future, when more Switch 2 Editions will follow.
Proposer: Yoshi18 (talk) Deadline: April 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT
We give Switch 2 Editions their own articles
memoryman3 (talk) Switch 2 Editions are unique game builds that Nintendo gives you the option to upgrade to, and as such should be treated as unique games. Determining whether a game deserves a separate article should be treated on a case-by-case basis, similar to other reissues. This would be no different from distinguishing a game like Luigi's Mansion 2 HD or Donkey Kong Country Returns HD as unique titles, unless the changes are so minimal that the games are classified as ports.
We give Switch 2 Editions their own section in their base games' article
We make a Switch 2 Edition page where the Switch 2 Editions have their own respective sections
Propose in the games' talk page based on what the Switch 2 Edition adds
Re-propose this when we're closer to release of the Switch 2
LinkTheLefty (talk) Ideally, we should wait until after launch since there's still much we don't know. From what I understand, they don't even have their own physical versions when seemingly everything else does (literally just the original Switch copy with a one-time download-code, or for all intents and purposes, DLC). If these "upgrade packs" act just like DLC does on previous consoles, then I think we should treat them as such, but that's to be determined at a later time.
Camwoodstock (talk) Yeah, no, we should definitely wait on this until the Switch 2 releases. Otherwise, we might end up pre-emptively codifying a ton of articles with nothing substantial to them beyond "It's exactly the same as Switch 1, the gameplay functions, visuals, text, audio, and everything are all the same, but it just runs smoother." We'd like to refer to the PC-88 and Sharp X1 versions of Super Mario Bros. Special, not just because it's fresh on our mind, but it is genuinely relevant to the subject; that is a game that very expressly has a performance-related different release on another platform, but outside of the very obvious audiovisual elements, there just isn't enough to warrant splitting on the gameplay side. We could very easily see the Switch 2 Editions being similar to this, where the gameplay is entirely intact with no unique mechanics or mild substitutions due to hardware improvements, but the vast majority of the differences are just "uh, it looks different and runs smoother", which is not particularly substantial.
We know so little about what a Switch 2 Edition will mean that I don't think a decision can be made right now. Salmancer (talk) 12:05, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
Seconding this--wouldn't it be better to just wait for the Switch 2 to actually release to see how the Switch 2 editions actually work? We're highly skeptical they would actually feature exclusive content in the first place, mind you, but without a Switch 2 edition having actually released, we're kind of voting in the dark here. ~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) 12:07, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
i want to point out the "Switch 2 Edition" moniker is specifically reserved for versions which have actual content changes (ie, not what Odyssey is getting, which is just a free compatibility update). however, i still think we should wait more before deciding what to do, and that it might be better to case-by-case it — eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 14:12, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
Case-by-case where we only split ones with significant new content might be the way to go. This reminds me of how New Play Control! Donkey Kong Jungle Beat is split while New Play Control! Mario Power Tennis isn't. As for determining which ones have enough new content, it seems like the titles can help with that - so far, ones that are mainly just graphical improvements are just called "Game – Nintendo Switch 2 Edition", while ones that have more content added have another bit on the end of the title after a "＋" (like Super Mario Party Jamboree – Nintendo Switch 2 Edition ＋ Jamboree TV). I guess the option closest to this is the fourth one, except I'd rather not strictly require a proposal to determine it in cases where it's obvious (though of course we'd be allowed to have one if it's not). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:50, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
I understand everyone's argument about this but I feel like we already know enough about the Switch 2 Edition of Jamboree to make this proposal. Yoshi18 (talk/contribs) 15:27, April 7, 2025 (EDT)
It is weird personally to have a "table this proposal" voting option when this wiki doesn't have a policy preventing it from being proposed again. A proposal being put up again after some time has passed is fairly normal. Well, there is the four week rule but surely no one would enforce that if the Switch 2 Edition games released within that window. Salmancer (talk) 13:45, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
I guess it's meant to be the equivalent of a "do nothing" option. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:59, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
Maybe it should have been "re-discuss" instead of "re-propose" so it doesn't have to have another proposal. Oh well. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:20, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
Removals
None at the moment.
Changes
Change the moon icon for Dark Mode
NOTE: Yes, we see what day it is. No, this is not a prank proposal! The fact this is actually coherent should've told you that much, but in case you couldn't tell, we are being genuine about this one. However, given how silly the subject matter is, we couldn't resist.
In case you somehow missed it, fairly recently, a proper dark mode was added to the wiki. You can enable it by clicking the moon icon on the top of the page; it's black on light mode, and yellow on dark mode. This works. This is adequate. We won't say it's bad by any stretch of the imagination. But look at the iconography all around it! The background has assorted icons, the wiki logo and favicon is a mushroom, and heck, for as long as we can remember, a mushroom sprite has been next to the username bar! While the alert bell and inbox icons are both a rather understandable grey, the moon actively changes colors and is positioned right next to that mushroom sprite in the username bar, which begs the question why it's like that.
Having asked on the Discord, we've come up with 3 possible changes to make, displayed to the right there:
Both Light and Dark Mode use a 3-Up Moon: Self-explanatory. Light Mode would be a white recoloring of the original SMW sprite, whereas dark mode would use the original yellow sprite.
Light Mode has a Shine Sprite, Dark Mode uses a Power Moon: Similar concept, but with more modern day collectibles. We've made some edited sprites to use for this (using sprites from Bowser's Inside Story and Odyssey as a basis), but we'd be open to improvements.
Do nothing: Light Mode uses a black crescent, dark mode uses a yellow crescent. Simple-as.
In addition, if there's genuine interest in doing so, we could perhaps make proposals to change the alert bell and notice inbox icons as well. For now, though, we'd like to keep it to the Dark Mode moon, as it's both new enough, and also it has the (dis)advantage of being juxtaposed directly with the mushroom next to the username, so it sticks out more to us.
Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary option. It's parity with the dark mode button, though we feel like making the light mode option a moon like the dark mode one is a missed opportunity.
Nintendo101 (talk) I like how it matches the Mushroom it is next too. The Shine Sprite and Power Moon are too contemporary in aesthetics. However, I wonder if porplemontage uses the moon symbol across the wikis he manages, like SmashWiki and the like. This is speculative, but it may not be technically possible to update the moon on Super Mario Wiki and not for other wikis that share its infrastructure. But if it is possible, this is the direction I would go with.
LinkTheLefty (talk) Better aesthetic, in my opinion. The alternative sticks out like a sore thumb.
ThePowerPlayer (talk) Simple, clean, and fits with the Mushroom sprite perfectly.
Shine Sprite
Camwoodstock (talk) Primary option. While we stand firmly by the 3-Up Moon for dark mode, Shine Sprites are far more unique silhouette-wise.
Black Crescent (status quo)
Which one for dark mode?
Deadline: April 15, 2025, 23:59 GMT
Yellow 3-Up Moon
Camwoodstock (talk) This one's our ride-or-die option. Ever since we saw the original icon, we've kinda been hoping it'd get to be a 3-Up Moon to go alongside the SMB3 Mushroom.
Nintendo101 (talk) Per my vote above. I like how it compliments the Mushroom sprite it is next to aesthetically.
LinkTheLefty (talk) I like the sprites being the same, just palette-swapped, for the toggle. Simple's good.
In all seriousness, I'm not entirely decided on my vote, but I feel like it would be better to have an different icon from the moon for light mode. That's just my 5 cents though. BMfan08 (talk) 20:27, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
Im not sure making this a poll proposal is a good idea because the icon options are quite different stylistically. Imagine, for example, the detailed Shine Sprite sprite being used alongside the minimalistic yellow moon icon. Additionally, the Shine Sprite/Power Moon options could stand to be a little more cohesive between each other, mainly regarding the outline, but also the shading to some extent. — Lady Sophie(T|C) 20:35, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
We're well aware, don't worry; we'd be fine to tweak the actual images as need be, such as reducing the shading on the Shine Sprite if it wins alongside the 3-Up Moon. The images are just our little concept pieces to illustrate the point. ~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) 20:38, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
I'm surprised Angry Sun/Moon aren't here. There's even the perfect quote in the latter article. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:28, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
Your honor... 1. we forgor 2. We weren't really confident in our ability to sprite a 16x16 Angry Sun that actually looks good by the time we remembered--let alone a SMM2 moon. Those sprites are larger for a reason! ~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) 14:23, April 1, 2025 (EDT)
Fair enough. By the way, if the 3-Up Moons pass, it'd look cute if the toggle was moved a little closer to the mushroom icon - since the sprite faces the other way, it'd seem like the moon's leaning against it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 03:19, April 2, 2025 (EDT)
Put plainly, it doesn't make sense to me that the Wii/Wii U and DS/3DS versions of these games share the same categories. The versions quite substantially differ from each other to the point where each version gets its own page. I propose we handle categories for these games the same way we handle categories for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. For instance, with file categories, there is still Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U images and its subcategories for images that apply to both versions, but there are also split Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS images and Category:Super Smash Bros. for Wii U images categories and subcategories. So, for instance, even if we aren't sure where an asset comes from or if the two games share an asset, it can stay in the existing merged category. This split will be especially useful for screenshots, given it's sometimes not clear when a screenshot is from DS/3DS or Wii/Wii U (some screenshots of the former lack the double screen).
As for page categories, both versions of a game sharing them lead to confusion. For instance, there's the page 4x100m Relay (Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games). Its identifier doesn't list a version, so does that mean this event is in both the DS and Wii versions? Nope, only the Wii version (I don't think we should change identifiers, to be clear). From what I've seen, no event page covers both versions of a game. So why do we only have a single events category per game? Category:Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games events is a confusing mess as it currently stands. This doesn't only apply to events, but items as well - the story mode of the DS version of Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games has a lot of subjects not in the Wii version, and even some of the pages themselves don't clarify which version the subject is from (perhaps because of confusion on version differences - for example look at Battle Snow Machine). By splitting these categories, not only will navigation be easier, but there will be less confusion on subjects as well.
Proposer: Technetium (talk) Deadline: April 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT
Camwoodstock (talk) We encountered this exact issue last night, actually, while adding Aboutfile descriptions. We're a bit surprised this hasn't already been done. Per proposal.
Per @Camwoodstock's comments on the ongoing electronic water-related proposal on the list of games. The way that a game is considered a game is currently arbitrary, with board games being split to one list, card games being relegated elsewhere, Play Nintendo getting its own list, and Nintendo Today! quizzes all being merged into the app's article. This proposal aims to decide what gets on the list of games article, since there isn't anything on that page that explicitly states that the games listed have to be video games (minus the text "organized by video game system", but this can be changed). To note, this proposal is not suggesting that anything should be removed from the list, the goal of this proposal is to figure out whether or not anything should be added to the list of games.
Camwoodstock (talk) Per ourselves in the original comments; this feels like kind of a no-brainer, and we're surprised these have been excluded from the Games list for as long as they have been. Board games are like, a known concept, they've been around for millennia, and heck, games like Mario Party-e exist as a hybrid board game/video game. Excluding board games feels very arbitrary, just because they aren't "video" games, but we've included the Game & Watch titles for forever, with basically no contention whatsoever, despite those not technically meeting the definition of being a "video" game.
Kaptain Skurvy (talk) The article is titled the "list of games," not the "list of VIDEO games." It'd be nice if this page just covered every game of every type, especially seeing how I consider board games (or anything of the sort) to be closer to games than merchandise. Besides, they are called board GAMES, so why shouldn't they be included on the "list of GAMES"?
No
Nintendo101 (talk) This is not to disparage board games or other types of media of this nature, but I think it would be healthier for our site to have distinction between a "video game" and "promotional tie-in media and products." I do not think being interactive is enough for it count as a "game" within the context of a video game-oriented franchise, in the same way I would not include instruction booklets in a list of books because they have readable text. This kind of stuff should be supported on the site, but not here.
Camwoodstock (talk) Per ourselves in the original comments, and the same rationale behind board games. Sure, it's not a "video" game, but this is List of Games, not List of Video Games.
Camwoodstock (talk) From the looks of it, those are toy cars; those are toys, not games. Them being listed as "other Super Mario-themed games" feels like a bit of a misnomer.
Kaptain Skurvy (talk) We have other browser games on the list, why not these?
No
Does Nintendo Today! move to the list?
Deadline: April 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
Yes
Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. It has many interactive elements, such as quizzes.
No
1468z (talk) The only thing that comes the closest to the definition of game and is related to Mario is the silhouette quizzes, which despite their name are actually just articles with a profile of a character without any interactive elements. It's not that different from something you would find on Nintendo's website.
Camwoodstock (talk) To be honest, we're a bit on the fence, but we're leaning on this for now. Maybe if there were more active game elements to them, but as it stands, these are just articles at the moment with no real interactive elements aside from. Clicking it and reading it.
Rykitu (talk) Per all. If you really think about it, if we count Nintendo Today as a game, that would mean the Super Mario Wiki would be considered a game.
Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. It was an interactive VHS tape that required the user to press buttons at certain points.
Camwoodstock (talk) By our own definition of it being an "interactive game", yes, even if it's just a VHS analogue to those Play Nintendo quizzes, you can get a question wrong and stuff will still happen.
Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. They were made by Banpresto, usable in arcades, and required money to play.
No
Camwoodstock (talk) You don't really interact with it aside from sitting on it; if there was a more game-ified aspect to it, kinda like Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car, maybe? But as it stands, this is a little too non-interactive.
Camwoodstock (talk) Per ourselves in the original proposal's comments; they are interactive games with a blatant physical, mechanical element to them. The lack of "video" isn't a hurdle so long as the Game & Watch games exist.
Nintendo101 (talk) per my board game vote. This is not comparable to Game & Watch.
The Comment Games
@Nintendo101, unless us and everyone we know has been using it very wrong, we don't really see how the board game vote applies to Nintendo Today!... ;P not that it matters, as we agree that Nintendo Today! would be overkill to include either way unless they were more interactive, but y'know,~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) 20:23, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
If we decide to keep the non-video games off the list of games, I feel like a name change to "List of video games" might be a good idea (though the link on the main page can keep it shortened to "Games" for simplicity if need be). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 20:43, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
@Hewer I have an idea. Could we add a new header on the list of games (underneath the iOS stuff and the LEGO Super Mario Roku/Sky Italia games) for "physical games" or "non-electronic games", thus keeping the base list intact up to said section? Nelsonic (talk) 13:21, April 8, 2025 (EDT)
If Play Nintendo is added to the list, would we include every game in the "Play" category or will we also include the quizzes, polls, puzzles, matching and painting games? If that is the case, I am warning you that there are hundreds of those and would probably take like 75% of the whole page. Rykitu
@Rykitu I was thinking that for the duplicates, we could link to a handful of the most relevant ones and then stick something along the lines of "For a complete list of Play Nintendo quizzes, see list of Play Nintendo skill quizzes" underneath the segment. Nelsonic (talk) 13:11, April 9, 2025 (EDT)
Uniformly indicate subjects' work of origin in infobox headers
For some infoboxes like RPG enemy infoboxes or show episode infoboxes, the work is displayed in a header (like "Paper Mario enemy" or "Super Mario World episode"). Others, like the generic level infobox (which has only "Level" in a header) and the minigame infobox, indicate the game in a regular field.
I propose all subject infoboxes with a "Game" field or similar (exceptions and specific details below) adopt the work-in-header-cell format (like "Super Mario World level"), and the "Game" or "Appears in" field be changed to "Reappearances" (present only in cases where the subject reappears, like retro Mario Kart courses or returning WarioWare microgames).
Why do that? In order to maintain consistency in the presentation of this type of info, and also because it makes more sense than having the work be indicated in a regular field, as the work is not an internal attribute of the subject (like a level's time or code, or an enemy's stats), but part of its context. Also, making work identification more clear is useful when the same infoboxes are widely used for subjects belonging to different games and series.
That would affect every infobox that has a "Game" field currently, the course infobox, and infoboxes for specific games.
In the end, the infoboxes affected by this change would be:
(As for spaces, karts and kart parts, Paper Mario item and power shots, which have an "Appears in" field, I suggest we indicate the series in the header instead (Mario Party, Mario Kart, Paper Mario and Mario Tennis), since they are not really "tied" to the game they debuted in, but are series-wide elements.)
Proposer: Bro Hammer (talk) Deadline: April 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT
Support: replace regular "Game" fields and similar in infoboxes with a header cell
Comments (Uniformly indicate subjects' work of origin in infobox headers)
My understanding is that Power Shots are exclusive to exactly two Mario Tennis games, Mario Power Tennis and Mario Tennis: Power Tour. And of them, only twelve appear in both games. At that point, you might as well just have those twelve them say "Mario Power Tennis Power Shot" and say they reappear in Mario Tennis: Power Tour. Salmancer (talk) 13:45, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
Change previous and next entries cell in infoboxes to include actual entry names and change directory link
Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on April 18, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.
Currently, the previous and next cell in infoboxes for TV show episodes, levels and worlds have a few issues:
The previous and next entries are displayed as "<<" and ">>", which make it more cumbersome to simply figure out what they are, since one may have to hover the cursor over it, and it is even worse on mobile, where you may have to open the link to learn what it is);
It gets always more confusing and messy when more than one entry is displayed, especially for levels that link to secret levels, displayed as "**", as it is not immediately understandable what that means;
Levels and worlds have a "directory of levels/worlds" link which just links to the Level category or World article. It is kind of pointless.
I propose we change that section to another format that:
Includes a header labeling the section;
Uses "previous" and "next" labels;
Lists the names for the entries, and, for secret levels, attach a "(secret)" note to it.
Links to the relevant section listing the entries in the specific article for the work;
Since some articles may have longer lists of entries (such as some levels in Super Mario Bros. Wonder, we can have an alternate format that stacks the previous and next cells instead, since it appears laid out more nicely. It may make that section take a lot more space, but cases like these are very few compared to most which have just one or two entries each side.
PopitTart (talk) Good god, yes PLEASE. I was flabbergasted the first time I tried navigating levels in SMW and was redirected to a category of just. Every Single Level in Every Single Game the Wiki Covers. What use does that possibly have??
Ahemtoday (talk) You make a lot of good points about the current problems, and this is a natural solution to 'em. I'm not sure about "episode chronology" or especially "level sequence" as a header for the section, though — those terms describe something that these sections are just a small slice of. Maybe, say, "surrounding levels" or "surrounding episodes"? (Side note, but there's something magical to me about proposals being able to overturn longstanding bits of wiki policy. These infobox sections have been formatted that way for at least fifteen years...)
AmossGuy (talk) This simply shows the information more clearly, I think. And I like Ahemtoday's suggestion of "surrounding levels" for the terminology.
Camwoodstock (talk) This is way overdue, especially after more non-linear games like Super Mario Bros. Wonder but even thanks to games as old as Super Mario World. Even for far more linear affairs, like your Super Mario Bros.es or your Donkey Kong 3: Dai Gyakushūs, we quite prefer the aesthetics of actually listing the page names over what we currently have; though we do feel it important to ask, in the case of games where levels are named stuff like just, "World 7-1" and "World 7-2" with nothing distinguishing them, would we just visually display them as "World 7-1" and "World 7-2", or would we include the parenthetical, and it'd display as "World 7-1 (Super Mario Bros. Special)" and "World 7-2 (Super Mario Bros. Special)"? While not a dealbreaker, it would be annoying, and we'd suggest... Not. ;P
Pseudo (talk) This would be a huge improvement on the current infoboxes in a number of ways. Also, I would agree with Camwoodstock's suggestion to not include the parentheticals in level name links.
Salmancer (talk) Yeah, current system could use a tune-up.
Scrooge200 (talk) Yes! This makes so much more sense. I'm surprised this hasn't been proposed earlier.
Oppose: keep previous and next entries presentation as is
Comments (Change previous and next entries presentation in infoboxes)
i'm concerned the "List of levels" link could cause issues in games that have more than one version with differing amounts of levels (such as Mario vs. Donkey Kong). what could we do about that? — eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 00:24, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
Probably have two links, one each for each version of the game? This would be my first idea. -- Pseudo(talk,contributions) 12:27, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
maybe it could link to the "[game] levels" category? also as a sidenote, the tall version used for Wonder should align the Next levels to the right. — eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 00:13, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
Can this proposal apply to Template:Mission infobox? At least everything in Category:Levels is the same kind of thing. That's untrue of the Missions category, which has achievements, levels, minigames, and those non-level scenario things all together because they're all called "missions". Salmancer (talk) 13:45, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
Yeah, this may apply to any infobox with that feature. Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 13:11, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
For those concerned about the "sequence/chronology" header, I based that on how Wikipedia does it (where they have a "X chronology" in their infoboxes, like this). In my opinion, it makes more sense. (Subjective babble warning) The "previous and next" section is not a regular field, but a fixed "footer" to the infobox. It serves as a navigation aid to the topic of the infobox (e.g. "Super Mario Bros. levels" as a whole series of articles), not as data on the current subject alone. The fact the current format doesn't even list the names, but instead just tells us "go to the previous/next entry" with << and >> evidences that function. If we named it something like "surrounding levels", it would imply that these are to be taken as attributes of the entry isolatedly, like "timer" and "difficulty", when that is not the case. It doesn't seem to matter that much, but there is much implied from just a header title. Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 13:11, April 12, 2025 (EDT)
~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) 
12:07, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 14:12, April 6, 2025 (EDT)
Yoshi18 (talk/contribs) 15:27, April 7, 2025 (EDT)
(T|C) 20:35, March 31, 2025 (EDT)
~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) 
20:23, April 5, 2025 (EDT)
Rykitu
eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 00:24, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
12:27, April 11, 2025 (EDT)
