MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
{| align="center" style="width: 85%; background-color: #f1f1de; border: 2px solid #996; padding: 5px; color:black"
===Lower Category Item Requirement from 4 to 3===
|'''Proposals''' can be new features (such as an extension), removal of a previously added feature that has tired out, or new policies that must be approved via [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] before any action(s) are done.
This was spurred by the introduction of the to-do bar. Thanks, to-do bar! Anyways, if you look at [[Special:WantedCategories]], at the moment, it's all entries with 3 or fewer items each; this makes sense, given we have a policy that suggests [[MarioWiki:Categories#Size and scope|categories are kept to only 4 or more items]]. However, for a good portion of the 3-itemers, these are all fairly featured images from sources like various short flash advergames, or more niche subjects like the [[MediaBrowser]] which came in a series of, well, 3 web browsers. In comparison to the 1-or-2 entry, well, entries, these have a bit more substance to them, basically waiting for a fourth image to be taken at some point; and while in some cases, that image can come up, in others... Well, what are the odds a fourth MediaBrowser is releasing when they went bust back in 2001, y'know?
*Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., "I like this idea!"
*"Vote" periods last for one week.
*All past proposals are [[/Archive|archived]].
|}
A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code <nowiki>{{user|</nowiki>''User name''<nowiki>}}</nowiki>.


This page observes the [[MarioWiki:No-Signature Policy|No-Signature Policy]].
While we don't feel strongly about what happens to the 1 or 2 entry categories, we do think there is ''just enough'' to these 3-entry categories to warrant a closer look our current policies are not providing. Should we lower the cutoff to 3? Or is 4 the magical number for categories?


<h2 style="color:black">How To</h2>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
#Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
'''Deadline''': February 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
#*Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
#*Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
#*Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
#Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
#At any time a vote may be rejected if at least '''three''' active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
#"<nowiki>#&nbsp;</nowiki>" should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
#All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week.
#If a proposal has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of '''three''' votes. If a proposal reaches the deadline and the total number of votes for each option differ by two or less votes, the deadline will be extended for another week.
#Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "[[Wikipedia:Quorum|NO QUORUM]]." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
#No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than '''4 weeks''' ('''28 days''') old.
#Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation. However, the proposer can request that their proposal be deleted by a [[MarioWiki:Administrators|Sysop]] at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it.
#All proposals are archived. The original proposer must '''''take action''''' accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a Sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
#There shouldn't be proposals about creating articles on a underrepresented or completely absent subject, unless there is major disagreement about whether the content should be included. To organize efforts about completing articles on missing subjects, try creating a [[MarioWiki:PipeProject|PipeProject]].
#Proposals can not be made about [[MarioWiki:Administrators|System Operator]] promotions and demotions. Sysops can only be promoted and demoted by the will of [[MarioWiki:Bureaucrats|Bureaucrats]].
#If the Sysops deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
#No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters, and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.


The times are in EDT (UTC -4:00), and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights).  If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.
====Lower to 3 (triple trouble!)====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves, of course. We don't see any particular harm in this when, as of submitting this proposal, this would only create, what, 10 categories?
#{{User|Pseudo}} Makes sense to me, especially because, if an individual is uploading images to the wiki for a source that currently has no images, there's a solid chance that that person will upload three images. {{wp|Rule of three (writing)|It's a popular number}}!
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Three is a magic number.


__TOC__
====Keep at 4 (forced to four!)====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Porple in the comments, image categories don't have this restriction so the proposal seems moot otherwise. I don't see a benefit to reducing this limit across the board, and I'm very hesitant to support without a clearer picture of the implications. (The assertion in the comments that this wouldn't have immediate impact was based on the list on Special:WantedCategories - there weren't any categories there besides image ones because that would require mainspace articles to have redlinked categories that would go against policy if you made them. Obviously, that wouldn't fly.)
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Porplemontage and Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Honestly, five would be a better restriction so that it's a well rounded number.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Waluigi Time.


<center><span style="font-size:200%">CURRENTLY: '''{{LOCALTIME}}, {{LOCALDAY}} {{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALYEAR}} (EDT)'''</span></center>
====Comments (wait, letters in numbers?)====
The intent of that restriction is that, for example, if there aren't four articles for [[:Category:Super Paper Mario characters]] then the couple characters would just go in [[:Category:Super Paper Mario]] rather than create the subcategory. Image categories are different since moving up the tree in the same way would be undesirable (there would be a bunch of random images at the bottom of [[:Category:Game images]] rather than those categories being redlinked). We can create image categories with as few as one entry; I updated [[MarioWiki:Categories]]. If you still want to change the number needed for articles, up to you. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 22:38, January 21, 2025 (EST)
:Oh! We didn't know that, good to know! We'd like to proceed with the proposal, even if we don't think it'd have any immediate impact under these rules--all the 3-item categories have to do with images at the moment. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 22:41, January 21, 2025 (EST)


==New features==
===Split Mario & Luigi Badges & Remaining Accessories===
{{early notice|February 1, 2025}}
We realize this is a bit presumptuous given the proposal to split the clothing is, as of writing this, [[Talk:Clothing#Split everything here|the oldest unimplemented Talk Page Proposal]], and it isn't even ''close'' (it's the only proposal on that list from 2021!). However, we're a little surprised the badges and accessories weren't included in that proposal! Like clothing, there are multiple badges that appear across multiple games (such as remakes, but also the various Bangles from Dream Team/Brothership, Scarves and Statues in Dream Team/Paper Jam) and things different between them (did you know the base Mush Badge isn't in the Super Star remake? Only Mush Badges A and AA. you'd only know this comparing the two lists.)


==New Features==
In addition, a few of the accessories are already split; namely, the special items from the Starbeans Cafe, like the [[Greed Wallet]] or [[Great Force]]. We don't know what exactly to do if this split doesn't happen, so we've added an extra option to retain those articles but keep things to their lists, and one that just merges everything back to the lists.


===Make bestiaries or not?===
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT


Ok so users have been arguing on if there should be a bestiary for enemies or not(like a collection of all the enemies from a game in one article). Really, why do we need a bestiary? I'm not the best at explaining, but my reasons on why there shouldn't be a bestiary are below.  
====Split 'em all (fire up that button pin maker!)====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, of course. There's ''enough'' recurrence and differences here that we feel like this has ample reason to exist beyond just consistency's sake.
#{{User|Arend}} Might as well do it. Heck, maybe it will incentivize someone to actually do something about that clothes proposal.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Huh, this wasn't included in the clothing proposal?
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} If this is just a confirmation of the scope of an already passed proposal, then why not <small>(provided it actually gets implemented)</small>.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.


#First of all, bestiaries are worthless because you're just deleting a list of enemies from a main article , and then putting that content into a new sub-article and adding stuff, like where the enemies appear. But why don't we just keep all that in the main article and not have a whole article on enemies and where they appear? In fact, writing about where enemies appear in main articles or bestiaries, as you can just click on the link to that enemies page and read about where they come from there!  
====Keep badges and remaining accessories merged, but keep Starbeans items split (the status quo option!)====
#Some users made a huge table for the BiS enemies. I can tell that it took them a lot of work, and if the BiS enemies are put in a bestiary, than those tables have to be deleted! And there's no point of erasing great work!
#Bestiaries can make some stubs. How? Some games such as Mario is Missing, Yoshi's Cookie, Super Mario Bros., and Mario Bros. have very few enemies. Making their list in a bestiary will make a short list, resulting in an unwanted stub.
#Why do we need bestiaries when '''we have categories about enemies'''? You can just go to category:Paper Mario enemies or category: Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story enemies, then click on the link to their article, and read about where they appear.
#Wikipedia doesn't even have bestiaries! We may not be Wikipedia, but it is a much more experienced wiki. The users they probably know better than to put in bestiaries.


HOWEVER, games in the [[Paper Mario (series)|Paper Mario series]] and [[Super Mario RPG]] SHOULD have bestiaries because their games have psychopath thoughts/tattles and bestiaries. But yeah, no need for bestiaries on those other games. Happy voting!
====Merge 'em all (those are SO out of style!)====


'''Proposer:''' {{User|Fawfulfury65}}<br>
====Comments (splittin' badges/accessories)====
'''Deadline:''' 5, December 2009, 15:00
I almost want to oppose this proposal until the clothing articles gets actually split. I tried cancelling that one [[Talk:Clothing#Keep the Mario & Luigi Clothing pages as list articles|six month ago]] (to no avail) and I'd really rather not want to have another proposal like it just waiting for someone to implement. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 14:43, January 25, 2025 (EST)


====Make Bestiaries for all articles====
The original proposal was "split everything here." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:06, January 26, 2025 (EST)
:The wording is a bit vague, admittedly. The way the proposal was archived says only clothing, but the actual article suggests all gear. Which, hey, it'd be nice to at least confirm it. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 01:10, January 26, 2025 (EST)


====Bestiaries should be developed for RPG game articles only; unnecessary for other genres====
==Removals==
#{{User|Fawfulfury65}} Per above.
''None at the moment.''
#{{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} - Keep it!!! Bestiaries are for Paper Mario and MRPG stuff, since it actually tells about the enemies in the game. The Mario & Luigi series is RPG series and hav enemies too, but don't describe them in the game. Easy choice.
#{{User|FunkyK38}} - I'd have to go with you guys on this one. I know how hard you all worked to finish the whole thing. Per FF65.
#{{User|Dry Paratroopa}} - Per BMB.
#{{User|Gamefreak75}} Per my comments below.
#{{user|Coincollector}} - Per all. Another thing really unnecessary. Most of bestiaries are small, poor and so-simple lists that can be created within main articles without any complication. Why making those simple things harder?
#{{User|MATEOELBACAN}} - Per all,we don't need this,they make the pages of their respective games shorter and make the pages of the "bestiaries" a stub,Really not necessary!.
#{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} Well, considering the fact that I think the gallery is stupid, at least I don't have to go to another article just to read info on the enemies.
#{{User|Supermariofan14}} - No, it's all right in the game article. However, in RPG games we may put them in alphabetical order.
#{{User|Frostyfireyoshi}} - Per all. Only the Paper Mario series actually requires bestiaries.
#{{User|Redstar}} - Bestiaries are, for the purposes of this wiki, a list of enemies found in a particular game, as well as their vital statistics, locations, and a description if the game provides one. Due to the nature of bestiaries, they can be quite long and thorough, so must be split from the main article. Bestiaries, however, are not always necessary, and in fact are only really helpful for RPG games. There are currently four Mario RPG games: [[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]], [[Paper Mario]], [[Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door]], and [[Super Paper Mario]]. A bestiary for each would prove legitimate and useful. I oppose this proposal because it seeks to make bestiaries unnecessary for ''all'' game articles, RPG or otherwise. I agree bestiaries are not necessary for the regular platformer and puzzle Mario games, but banning them entirely from the RPG games is simply too far.
#{{User|Rouge2}} I think the enemies of a certain evolution like Goomba and Gu Goomba, should be merged.


====Comments====
==Changes==
Is this proposal supposed to delete all bestiary articles or only those pertaining the M&L series? Lists of enemies should belong on the game's article (Paper Mario games shouldn't get any special treatment). I'd support preventing all bestiary articles.--{{User|Knife}}
===Allow users to remove friendship requests from their talk page===
This proposal is not about banning friendship requests. Rather, it's about allowing users to remove friendship requests on their talk page. The reason for this is that some people are here to collaborate on a giant community project on the ''Super Mario'' franchise. Sure, it's possible to ignore it, but some may want to remove it outright, like what [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Arceus88&diff=4568152&oldid=1983365 happened here]. I've seen a few talk pages that notify that they will ignore friendship requests, [[User talk:Ray Trace|like here]], and this proposal will allow users to remove any friend requests as they see fit.


Uhm... Does this Proposal actually intent to change anything? If so, then the header of the second paragraph is misnamed. If not, then what's the point? - {{User|Edofenrir}} 20:12, 29 November 2009 (EST)
If this proposal passes, '''only''' the user will be allowed to remove friendship requests from their talk pages, including the user in the first link should they want to remove it again.


:I think it's only gonna change the newly added bestiaries of M&L series. I've gotta disagree with you Knife, though. Mario and Luigi series have no bestiary, while the Paper Mario series have bestiaires (Tattles, Catch Cards, and whatever the heck they are).{{User|Gamefreak75}}
This proposal falls directly in line with [[MarioWiki:Courtesy]], which states: "Talking and making friends is fine, but sometimes a user simply wants to edit, and they should be left to it."
::No this counts for all articles on games. Not the Mario and Luigi series. So if the most users think that there shouldn't be a bestiary, than we will only have any, unless it is really needed(like for PM games). But if the most users want there to be bestiaries, than we'll put bestiaries for all games. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}


:::I'm not really too fond of bestiaries for the M&L series, but if this proposal passes, do we have to create bestiaries for SMS and NSMBW and other games?{{User|Gamefreak75}}
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>January 29, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to February 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT


Yes but I honestly doubt we'll have to make any bestiaries. A lot of uses didn't like the idea of bestiaries, but I made this proposal to solve an argument. I hate when people fight on the internet. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Shadow2}} Excuse me?? We actually prohibit this here? Wtf?? That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Literally ''any other platform that has ever existed'' gives you the ability to deny or remove friend requests... They don't just sit there forever. What if your talk page just gets swamped with friend requests from random people you don't know, taking up space and getting in the way? I also don't think it's fair, or very kind, to say "just ignore them". It'll just sit there as a reminder of a less-than-ideal relationship between two users that doesn't need to be put up on display. Honestly I didn't even know we did "Friends" on this site...maybe the better solution is to just get rid of that entirely. This is a wiki, not social media.
#{{User|RetroNintendo2008}} Per Shadow2's comment.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} IMO, the spirit of the no removing comments rule is to avoid disrupting wiki business by removing comments that are relevant to editing, records of discipline, and the like. I don't think that removing friend requests and potentially other forms of off-topic chatter is harmful if the owner of the talk page doesn't want them.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per WT
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} If someone doesn't want something ultimately unrelated to the wiki on their talk page, they shouldn't be forced to keep it. Simple-as. It would be one thing if it was "remove ''any'' conversation", as that could be particularly disruptive, but for friend requests, it's so banal that we can't see the harm in allowing people to prune those if they deem it fit.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} <s>Per proposal and Waluigi Time.</s> No, I do think this is principally fine. Though I do not support the broader scope envisioned by Shadow2.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Agreed with N101.
#{{User|Paper Plumm}} While the concerns presented by the opposing side are valid, I think we should allow people to have the ability to control this sort of thing, this will have no consequence to you if you enjoy having friend requests however for those who are against this they are able to gain a net positive in relieving themselves of needless clutter. As per the broader ideas presented, that definitely needs its own vote, however again I am of the mind that the option should be made available but not forced upon all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal, Waluigi Time, Camwoodstock, and Paper Plumm.
#{{User|Daisy4Days}} Per proposal. I just don’t see why one should have to keep that; it’s completely unrelated to editing the wiki.


:Yeah, but I think the bestiaires for PM games should stay.{{User|Gamefreak75}}
====Oppose====
::Yes, because PM has tattle info and stuff needed for bestiaries. Just for the PM series. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
#{{User|Ray Trace}} This hasn't been a problem as if lately and doesn't really fix anything. Just ignore the comments unless it's warning/block-worthy behavior like harassment or vandalism.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really see the point of this. A user can ignore friend requests, or any messages for that matter, without having to delete them.
#{{User|Sparks}} Friend '''requests''' are not any kind of vandalism or flaming. However, if they falsely claim to be their friend and steal their userbox then it would be an issue.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} I don't see why we would allow the removal of friend requests specifically and no other kind of non-insulting comments.
#{{User|Technetium}} No one even does friend requests nowadays.
#{{User|Mario}} Iffy on this. The case was a fringe one due to a user removing a very old friend request comment done by a user that I recall had sent out friend requests very liberally. I don't think it should be exactly precedent setting, especially due to potential for misuse (removing friend requests may be seen as an act of hostility, maybe impolite even if unintentional; ignoring it also has the problem but not as severe). Additionally, friend requests are not as common as they used to be, and due to this I just rather users exercise discretion rather than establish policy I don't think is wholly necessary. My preference is leaving up to individual to set boundaries for friend requests; a lot of users already request no friend requests, no swear words, or no inane comments on their talk pages and this is where they reserve that right to remove it or censor it. Maybe instead we can have removing friend requests be within rules, but it ''must'' be declared first in the talk page, either through a comment ("sorry, I don't accept friend requests") or as a talk page rule.
#{{User|Tails777}} I can see the logic behind allowing people to remove such requests from their talk pages, but at the same time, yeah, it's not really as common anymore. I just feel like politely declining is as friendly as it can get and flat out deleting them could just lead to other negative interactions.
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} It’s honestly rude to just delete them. If they were not nice, I guess it would make sense, but I can’t get over it when others delete your message.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} A friend request ain't gonna hurt you. If you have a problem with it, you can always just reject it.
#{{User|Arend}} On top of what everyone else has already said, I think leaving them there is more useful for archival purposes.
#{{User|MCD}} This seems like something that would spark more pointless arguments and bad blood than it would prevent, honestly. Nothing wrong with saying 'no' if you ''really'' don't want to be friends with them, or just ignoring it. Also, the example that sparked this isn't anything to do with courtesy - the message in question was from 9 years ago and was not removed because the user was uncomfortable with it, but they seem to be basically starting their whole account from scratch and that was the one message on the page. In that context, I think removing the message was fine, but anything like that should decided on a case-by-case basis if there's nothing wiki-related or worth archiving otherwise.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Green Star}} Friend requests may not be especially helpful when it comes to building an encyclopedia, but allowing users to remove rather than simply ignore them isn't exactly helpful for building a friendly and welcoming community.
<s>{{User|Nintendo101}} It is not our place to remove talkpage comments — regardless of comment — unless it is harassment or vandalization, to which stuff like this is neither. I really think this energy and desire to helping out is best spent trying to elaborate on our thinner articles, of which there are many.</s>


:::Perfect! I shall vote now.{{User|Gamefreak75}}
====Comments====
{{@|Nintendo101}} Ignoring friendship requests and removing them are basically the same thing. It's not required to foster a collaborative community environment, whether a user wants to accept a friendship request or not. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 09:52, January 15, 2025 (EST)
:I think it is fine for users to ignore friend requests and even remove them if they so choose. I do not think it is the place of another user — without being asked — to remove them, especially on older user talk pages. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:03, January 15, 2025 (EST)
::{{@|Nintendo101}} The proposal is for only the user whom the talk page belongs to removing friend requests being allowed to remove friend requests, '''not''' others removing it from their talk page for them. I tried to make it clear with bold emphasis. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 10:04, January 15, 2025 (EST)
:::Do we really need a proposal for this, though? And besides, I don't think friend requests are much of a thing here anymore. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:24, January 15, 2025 (EST)
::::I would've thought not, though a user got reverted for removing a friend request from own talk page (see proposal text). [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 10:26, January 15, 2025 (EST)
:::::My bad, I thought you had removed it to begin with. Apologies for the misunderstanding. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:50, January 15, 2025 (EST)
Adding on, there's a BIG difference between "Removing a warning or disciplinary action", "Hiding or censoring past discussions"...and "Getting rid of a little friend request". Sure it's important to retain important information and discussions on a talk page, but if it's not relevant to anything or important then the user shouldn't be forced to keep it forever. Perhaps a more meaningful proposal would be, "Allow users to remove unimportant information from their talk page". I've looked at the talk pages for some users on this wiki, and some of them are filled with...a '''lot'''. Like, a ton of roleplay stuff, joking and childish behaviour, gigantic images that take up a ton of space. Is it really vitally necessary to retain this "information"? Can't we be allowed to clean up our talk pages or remove stuff that just doesn't matter? Stuff that doesn't actually relate in any way to editing on the wiki or user behaviour? Compare to Wikipedia, a place that is generally considered to be much more serious, strict and restrictive than here...and you ''are'' allowed to remove stuff from your talk page on Wikipedia. In fact, ''you're even allowed to remove disciplinary warnings''. So why is it so much more locked-down here? [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 08:55, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:I've been trying to convey this very thing. I'm not against people befriending on the wiki, or even WikiLove to help motivate others. But there's a big difference between removing friend requests to removing formal warnings, reminders, and block notices from one's talk page. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 09:24, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::"''I've looked at the talk pages for some users on this wiki, and some of them are filled with...a lot. [...] Is it really vitally necessary to retain this 'information'?''"
::It absolutely is for those users on the talk pages. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:12, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:::...Right...And it's their choice to keep it. But as I understand it, the rules of this website prevents those users from ''removing'' it if they should so choose. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 20:44, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::::I just don't see the issue. Those talk pages you cited are typically content exchanged between two users who know each other well enough. It doesn't happen with two strangers. If you don't want the content in the rare case some random person decides to post an image you don't like, then reply to it to indicate such, and it shouldn't be posted again. If they do it again, it's a courtesy violation and it's actionable, just ask sysops to remove it. It's not really violating the spirit of the "no removing comments" rule. Our current rules are already equipped to deal with this, I don't think it's a great idea to remove this content in most cases without at least prior notice, which I think this proposal will allow. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:59, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:::::That's the problem right there, you've perfectly outlined it. "some random person decides to post an image you don't like, then reply to it to indicate such, and it shouldn't be posted again". But the image is ''still there'', even though I don't want it to be there. Why does the image I don't like have to remain permanently affixed to my talk page, taking up space and not doing anything to further the building of this wiki? Rather, I should be allowed to say "I don't like this image, I am going to remove it now." [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 22:49, January 16, 2025 (EST)


Uhm... I just want to inform you, that, should the Proposal pass in favour of the site who is leading atm, absolutely nothing will happen, because the header says "Keep as is". - {{User|Edofenrir}}
I want to make something clear: under [[MarioWiki:Userspace#What can I have on my user talk page?|the current policy for user talk pages]], "you cannot remove conversations or comments, unless they are acts of vandalism or trolling". Comments that you can remove are the exception, not the norm. If this proposal passes, should we change the end of the sentence to "unless they are acts of vandalism, trolling, or friend requests"? {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 13:13, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:No. This is about letting users to decide whether to remove friend requests from their talk page if they do not want that solicitation. "you cannot remove conversations or comments, unless they are acts of vandalism or trolling" would be more along the lines of, "You are not allowed to remove any comments irrelevant to wiki-related matters, such as warnings or reminders. The most leeway for removing comments from talk pages comes from vandalism, trolling, or harassment. Users are allowed to remove friend requests from their own talk page as well." [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:43, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::{{@|Super Mario RPG}} receiving a friend request does not mean you have to engage with it or accept, does it? So I am not really sure it constitutes as solicitation. Is the idea of leaving a friend request there at all the source of discomfort, even if they can ignore it? Or is it the principal that a user should have some say as to what is on their own talk page as their user page? I worry allowing users to remove their comments from their talk pages (especially from the perspective of what Shadow2 is suggesting) would open a can of worms, enabling more disputes between users. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:13, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:::It's the principal of a user deciding whether they want it on their talk page or not. It would be silly if disputes occur over someone removing friendship requests. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 21:20, January 16, 2025 (EST)


::FF65, when you mentioned the BiS table stuff, I think that one user made it, while another user fixed a grammar problem (not trying to be selfish, just stating that fact) :) - {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}
:No, we should change it to "acts of vandalism, trolling, or unimportant matters unrelated to editing on the wiki." [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:28, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::I believe users should have ''some'' fun here and there. The wiki isn't just a super serious website! Plus, it gives us all good laughs and memories to look back on. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 20:32, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::{{@|Shadow2}} What are some specific examples? [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:35, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:::Examples of what? [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 20:44, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::::Of what other "unimportant matters" you'd like for users to be allowed to remove from their own talk page. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:47, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:::::Unfortunately it might be in bad faith to say "Look at this other user's page, this is considered unimportant and if it were on MY page, I would want it deleted." But like, when I first started on Wikipedia a friend of mine left a message on my talk page that said "Sup noob". I eventually fell out of favour with this friend and didn't really want to have anything to do with him anymore, so I removed it. It wasn't an important message, it didn't relate to any activity on the wiki, it was just a silly, pointless message. I liked it at first so I kept it, then I decided I didn't want it there anymore so I removed it. There's a lot of other very silly, jokey text I've seen on talk pages that I'm sure most users are happy to keep, but if they ''don't'' want to keep it then they should have the option of removing it. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 23:00, January 16, 2025 (EST)


So do have to change something because the header says "keep as is"? {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
{{@|Technetium}} That's true, no one does, but me and some others still would prefer a precedent to be set. This proposal began because someone blanked a friend request from own talk page recently, so this may occur every once in a while. The reason that one was allowed to be removed (by {{@|Mario}}) is because it was a single comment from long ago that had no constructive merit when applied to this year and wasn't that important to keep when the user decided to remove it. This proposal would allow it in all cases. Removing such messages from one's own talk page is the equivalent of declining friend requests on social platforms. It stops the message from lingering and saves having to do a talk page disclaimer that friend requests will be ignored, since some people may choose to accept certain friend requests but not others. This opens room for choices. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:21, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:Wait, I have a question, does that mean that the PM bestiary will cease to exist if this is heading in the direction the atm side is on? {{User|Baby Mario Bloops}}
::The Proposal should probably be rewritten. It seems to cause much confusion. - {{User|Edofenrir}}
:::Ok ok I fixed it a bit! Does it make more sense? {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
::::Well, it's more straight forward now, so I guess yes. - {{User|Edofenrir}}


There seems to be some confusion as to what a bestiary is. A bestiary is a complete list of all enemies found in a particular game, as well as the places they are located. It has absolutely nothing to do with tattle information, and in no way ends up as a stub. Really, Fawful is misleading you all as he apparently hasn't even read the current [[Paper Mario (Bestiary)|bestiary]] for the Paper Mario page. The intent of bestiaries are to avoid crowding main articles and expand on information that would otherwise be a list. Please, look at all the information before casting your votes. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 22:23, 29 November 2009 (EST)
{{@|Mario}} So if this proposal fails, would there be some clarification in rules behind the justification of such content being removed?  [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:35, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:Ok forget about the stub parts. Yes, I read the bestiary for PM, a list that can be added to the main PM article but isn't. And if bestiaries don't include tattle info, than that just makes bastiaries more worthless. And putting all that in the main article won't clutter up anything, in fact, if you really want to know where certain enemies appear, than just check out their article, that simple! We don't need bestiaries, Wikipedia doesn't even have bestiaries on games! {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
:[[File:Toadlose.gif]] Maybe? I don't know. This proposal was kind of unexpected for me to be honest. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:38, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::We're not Wikipedia. If we were, we wouldn't even be covering half the article as it is. And bestiaries aren't worthless... The entire point of them is to clean-up the main article, because no one wants to read a list of enemies found in that game. It takes up space for more important information. Splitting that list off into its own page, as well as expanding it to include location information, both cleans up the main article and keeps information presented in a more specialized location. Really, the only reason ''against'' this is because it's a little more work. The only reason you brought it up is because you don't like the things needed to be done to make the Mario & Luigi page worth Featuring. Laziness does not excuse professional standards. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 22:46, 29 November 2009 (EST)
::I do believe that the intentions of this proposal are good, but the scope is too narrow. It should be about granting users the freedom to remove unimportant fluff (Friend requests included) from their talk page if they so choose. Discussions about editing and building the wiki, as well as disciplinary discussions and warnings, do ''not'' fall under "unimportant fluff". [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 20:47, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:::If you want to continue this discussion, then do it without accusations! Everyone, maintain a mature standard of debating please! - {{User|Edofenrir}}
:::{{@|Shadow2}} have you considered that the users who receive images and jokes on their talk pages like having them there? The users who send jokes and images to certain receivers view them as good friends - these are friendly acts of comradery, and they are harmless within the communal craft of wiki editing. Are you familiar with anyone who would actually like to have the ability to remove "fluffy" comments from their talk pages? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:18, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::::I would like to, but I don't approve of someone going behind my back and lying about what something constitutes just so they can avoid doing it. This entire proposal is based on personal misconception, which implies Fawful didn't even ''look'' at the bestiary page as an example. I just hope we can both resolve it and get people looking at the facts. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 23:06, 29 November 2009 (EST)
:::Some narrow-scope proposals have set precedents. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 21:20, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::::(edit conflict) I would also add that they help build a wiki by fostering trust and friendship (which is magic) and helping morale around here, but I do think Shadow2 is arguing that if they receive such content, they should see fit to remove it. However, the hypothetical being construed here involves a stranger sending the content (which probably has happened like years ago) and I dispute that the scenario isn't supported in practice, so I don't think it's a strong basis for the argument. In the rare cases that do happen (such as, well, exchanges years ago), they're resolved by a simple reply and the content doesn't really get removed or altered unless it's particularly disruptive, which has happened. If it's applicable, I do think a rule change to at least allow users to set those particular boundaries in their talk pages can help but I don't see how that's strictly disallowed in the first place like the proposal is implying. {{User:Mario/sig}} 21:38, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::::"have you considered that the users who receive images and jokes on their talk pages like having them there?" Yes? Obviously? What does that have to do with what I'm saying. Why does everybody keep turning this whole proposal into "GET RID OF EVERYTHING!!" when it's not at all like that. If the users want the images and jokes on their talk page, they can keep them. If they ''don't'' want them, then there's nothing they can do because the rules prohibit removal needlessly. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 22:49, January 16, 2025 (EST)
:::::I think you misunderstand my point - why should we support a rule that does not actually solve any problems had by anyone in the community? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:03, January 16, 2025 (EST)
::::::That's an unfair assumption. It would be a problem for me if someone left something on my page, and there's probably plenty of others who would like to remove something. Conversely, what is there to gain from forcing users to keep non-important information on their talk page? [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 02:11, January 17, 2025 (EST)
:::::::I would appreciate it if you elaborated on what about my inquiry was an unfair assumption. I am generally not someone who supports the implementation of rules without cause. If there were examples of users receiving unsolicited "fluff" on the site that do not like it, or if you yourself were the receiver of such material, that would be one thing. But I do not believe either thing has happened. So what would be the point in supporting a rule like that? What are the potential consequences of rolling something like that? Facilitating edit wars on user talkpages? Making participants in a communal craft feel unwelcomed? Making users hesitant to express acts of friendship with another? The history of an article-impacting idea being lost because it emerged between two users on one of their talkpages? In my experience the users who have received light messages and images from others have established a bond elsewhere, such as on Mario Boards or the Super Mario Wiki Discord. I am not familiar of this being done between acquaintances or strangers, or people who dislike it regardless. If you had proof of that or any comparable harm, I would be more receptive to your perspective. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 12:13, January 17, 2025 (EST)
::::::::Feels like I'm just shouting at a wall here, and all of my concerns are being rebuffed as "not a big deal", so I guess I'll just give up. But going forward, having learned that once someone puts something on my talk page it's stuck there for eternity, no matter what it is, makes me incredibly uncomfortable. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 18:48, January 17, 2025 (EST)
This proposal says: ‘You may get your edit reverted for being nice, but because swearing is not being nice, you can swear the şħįț out’ {{User:Mushroom Head/sig}} 07:55, January 17, 2025 (EST)


CoinCollector: Bestiaries are '''not''' meant to be simple lists. They are a more thorough amount of information detailing locations in-game found, stats, and in-game tattle or player's guide information. These are things that should be there anyways, but if they were would take up too much room and so are moved. Several articles already do this and it's ''supposed'' to be done for all of them, but hasn't already. The only reason this is up for proposal is because Fawful and MATEO don't want to do the necessary work to make their articles worthy of Featuring, so are attempting to side-step it by creating a proposal to undermine current standard. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 02:20, 30 November 2009 (EST)
===Merge the Tortes===
Three birds with one stone with this one! This proposal concerns the following articles:
* [[Apprentice (Torte)]]
* [[Chef Torte]]
* [[Torte]]


:Making a bestiary in that way is similar to create an article for each enemy found in the game. Adding too info for enemies in the game's article makes the enemies' articles themselves redundant and useless, even making an attachment on that issue. In other words, you would like to "merge" (or "copy" or whatever) the info seen from multiple articles into one... {{user|Coincollector}}
The argument is fairly simple; the Chef and Apprentice Tortes are just a duo never seen separate from one another, like the [[Jellyfish Sisters]], or [[Cork and Cask]]--and given they are the ''only'' Tortes we see in the game, it seems only fair to merge that article as well. This is only particularly unique in the amount of articles there are; 3 of them, for this one concept? The Torte article focuses mostly on their in-battle role, while the Chef Torte and Apprentice articles try to explain their duo role in two distinct articles.
::It's not similar to that at all. Enemies stats differ from game to game, so in actuality this ''splits'' that information from the main articles to the related game articles, thus saving space. There is no merging at all. The main articles, such as a Goombas, for example, shouldn't be swamped with technical information from each game. It should only cover the history of that enemy throughout the games. Stats and such is better suited for the bestiary related to each game. An example of what a basic bestiary is would be the [[Paper Mario/Bestiary]], which simply lists each enemy and the location they're found at. A more extensive bestiary is the one for [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Tattle Log)]]. This information is individual from game-to-game, specifically the RPGs, so the RPGs are the only games affected to such a degree. Other games, such as Super Mario Sunshine, only need to be filled out in the basic way. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 03:10, 30 November 2009 (EST)


:That info fits without problems in the main article, so, why move it? in fact, I see there is no official descriptions (eg: in-game info) or something like that as to fill the "missing space" for those lists, just technical information (HP, Attack, Defense, etc) and that's fairly short. Changing over the info for the character articles will look them more formal but less dynamic - and maybe is by the fact that looks like we abused the purpose of the information tables, but that's other tale. The tattle log of  Paper Mario looks like for me a walk-trough than real information... Well, that's just my opinion. {{User|Coincollector}}
In addition, if we merge Apprentice (Torte), either to Torte or to Chef Torte, we should probably move [[Apprentice (Snifit)]] over to [[Apprentice]], and give it the <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> template.
::It should be moved because it's ''supposed'' to have all that essential information filled out, but if it did it would take up too much space. That's why bestiary pages are warranted. The problem is that the [[Goomba]] page, for example, used the correct table for an enemy while the [[Amazy Dayzee]] page does not. It uses the box associated with the RPG game. These main character pages shouldn't have all that technical information and should focus on the history, appearances, etc. The technical information should be moved to the corresponding game bestiaries, where they provide better focus and clean up the various related articles. Also, the Paper Mario bestiary looks that way because it's unfinished... It's supposed to look like the TTYD one. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 03:53, 30 November 2009 (EST)
:::Hey, I made this proposal to solve arguments you know! And stop it, Redstar, here, you're calling me and MATEO lazy, you called me a liar(which I am absolutely not!), and you're telling everyone that I'm misleading them! And now you're arguing with a sysop! Just wait until Dec. 5th when more users decide. Until then, I'm done with this, I'm going to fix up my proposal's description and wait for other users to vote on which they want. I hate arguing! {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
::::It's called discussing, not arguing. I have perfectly valid reasons for believing you both lied and are lazy. For laziness, I discussed many points on why I felt the Mario & Luigi page wasn't yet ready for Feature-status, including splitting off the enemy list into a bestiary. Rather than give reasons not to do it, or simply split it (which was all I asked, was to split it and we could work on expanding it later) you came here and formed a proposal that, if passed, results in you ''not having to do it''. How is avoiding work or discussion not lazy? As for lying, your initial proposal stated that forming a bestiary would delete work already done and create nothing but a stub. Both are untrue because moving all this work to a new page as-is does not delete it, and if it would become a stub, then that's because it's ''already'' a stub. Splitting it doesn't change a single thing. It can't become something unless it already is that thing. You may not have lied, but you obfuscated the facts. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 09:02, 30 November 2009 (EST)
:::::I made this proposal to stop the endless chat going around on those nomination pages. That's not lazy at all. My reasons on why we shouldn't make bestiaries are stated above. Therefore, we will wait for others user to make up their mind. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
::::::That was ''not'' chatting, that was discussion on issues relating to the article that you could have easily argued there. Instead, you formed this proposal. If you didn't like the proposed work to make the article fit for Feature-status, then you should have provided legitimate reasons against it. Instead I find this proposal a means of sidestepping professional discussion for a chance to not do the work. I don't want to argue over this, but I would like you to admit to what is obvious. Wikis take compromise and collaboration, not finding ways to get around work or discussion. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 09:23, 30 November 2009 (EST)


Fawfulfury65 recently re-wrote his proposal to better explain reasons against forming bestiaries. I will now write a rebuttal to each point explaining why bestiaries are both a good idea, and why his reasons are misinformed. Here we go:
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT


#Fawful asks why we can't just have the information on the main page. Well, truthfully, we can, but the reason why we ''shouldn't'' is because there are simply so many enemies that by naming them all, it becomes nothing more than a list. Even if they are fitted into tables, that list becomes much larger and, while more "pretty", takes up space. Splitting it to a new sub-article saves space on the main article as well as allows the information to be presented to its fullest where it won't distract from the main information. He also suggests simply clicking the enemy links to read on their main articles where they're located... Well, the problem with that is that enemies appear in more than one game. Any information on how and where they appear in ''this'' game simply won't be provided. The bestiary would provide actual locations in the game where they are found, giving far more information than can be found otherwise.
====Merge all 3 to Torte (It's burnt...)====
#Fawful's second point is that the current list of enemies are presented in a table, which took "hard work". I can personally vouch that the tables are very badly-written and lack in-depth information. I cannot see much of any work having been put into them at all. Regardless, these tables won't be deleted on splitting. There's no reason to, so there's nothing to fear.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary option. It's probably the simplest option overall, if you ask us, and it fits with how we handle the various duos of ''Superstar Saga''.
#He suggests that bestiaries would create stubs for games that don't have a large amount of enemies. This is false thinking because bestiaries are only necessary for the RPG games, which both have a large number of enemies as well as a plethora of statistics for those enemies. No game articles besides the RPG ones are affected by this, because only the RPG articles need it.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Unusually, these guys don't even have unique battle labels.
#We need bestiaries because they provide quick and easy information for enemies found in a game. Categories are not a legitimate substitute because people don't often look up categories, and categories only list articles. Categories provide just as much information as using the search-function does, which simply does not work.
#{{User|Sparks}} Merge!
#Finally, Fawful points out that Wikipedia doesn't use bestiaries, so why should we? Well, Wikipedia also doesn't create articles about specific enemies, so I think that explains why Wikipedia does not apply here.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal. (By the way, I'm also rethinking my position on the Iron Cleft situation...)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
<s>{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.</s>
====Merge Chef Torte & Apprentice, keep them split from Torte (It's just a little crispy.)====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option; if we really must keep Torte split from the duo we see in-game, that's fine, but we can't see any particular reason to keep the duo split up.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Also if I recall correctly, that inconsistent-in-English accent difference is not present in Japanese, where their speech patterns are mostly the same. I'm not sure about merging them to the species since they at least ''have'' unique names from the species, unlike say, Birdo.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Doc in the comments. This would also be consistent with [[Talk:Iron_Cleft#Merge_with_The_Iron_Adonis_Twins|last year's proposal for Iron Clefts/the Iron Adonis Twins]].
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all. If all three'd be merged, I'd rather the title be "Chef Torte and Apprentice" anyway, because iirc they're the only Tortes in the game.
#{{User|Paper Plumm}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think this makes more sense, from the comments below.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.


I hope all those points explain why I feel bestiaries are both necessary and logical. Perhaps a few people will change their votes, but if not, I hope you all feel you have the correct facts and are making an informed decision. Thank you.
====Do nothing (It's gourmet!)====
:Just to point out, my proposal goes for all games. Also, be aware that I am a she, not a he. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
::Sorry. I don't know how I would have known, but sorry for the presumption. To respond to the clarification of your proposal, bestiaries are currently only meant to be for RPG articles, and since your proposal is to not have bestiaries, than technically your proposal wouldn't extend past RPG games anyways. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 09:40, 30 November 2009 (EST)
:::MATEO: Did you even read any of my points or look at any of the bestiaries there already are? They're nowhere near being a stub! [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 21:23, 30 November 2009 (EST)


:::BabyLuigiOnFire: What Gallery do you mean? And the [[Paper Mario/Bestiary]] isn't exactly something that can fit on its main page. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 22:45, 30 November 2009 (EST)
====Comments (It's... Alive???)====
This can easily be ''four'' birds with one stone, since "Apprentice (Snifit)" can become the default article (the identifier's a little dated anyway) and the paltry disambig can be turned into an <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki>. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:08, January 19, 2025 (EST)
:Good observation, actually! Went and added this. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 22:15, January 19, 2025 (EST)


:::: I think she(BL on fire) meant the separate page of images (such as artwork and screenshot) found in articles like [[Wario]] or [[Luigi]] because I'm not too fond of it either. {{User|LeftyGreenMario}}
@Doc: On that note, because of [[MarioWiki:once and only once|once and only once]], that info is awkwardly divided across two out of three articles at present, even though it pertains to all three. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:25, January 22, 2025 (EST)
:I see the "species" article as being mostly about how they battle, as well as the best place to note the various unused setups containing differing amounts of them, while a singular character duo article would cover their role in the story and general characterization. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 09:15, January 22, 2025 (EST)


I changed my vote because I realized this proposal changes nothing already done, and actually agrees with my initial position. It was just so badly presented I had no idea what Fawful was trying to get at, but in the end I realized we can both benefit from this proposal. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 00:55, 1 December 2009 (EST)
By the way, wouldn't option 1 go against [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs]]? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 10:27, January 27, 2025 (EST)
:Not any more than [[Cork and Cask]] does, I'd say. The main difference here is that the game already has a good name that can apply to both. Speaking of which, {{@|Camwoodstock}}, would the resulting article be treated as a character or species article? The former would make more sense, in my view, but just to make sure. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:57, January 27, 2025 (EST)
::We were imagining the former, akin to the many duos of Superstar Saga, yes. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 11:51, January 27, 2025 (EST)
:::Come to think about it, it's also a little odd how Booster's main trio of [[Snifster]]s are covered on what is otherwise treated as a species article. That's a somewhat similar situation, isn't it? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 10:29, January 28, 2025 (EST)


Half of you need to re-vote, seeing as how this proposal is now changed to remove Paper Mario bestiaries.--{{User|Knife}} 14:20, 1 December 2009 (EST)
===Rename Trivia section to "Notes" and allow broader coverage in their contents===
{{early notice|February 2, 2025}}


I was actually thinking we could change the PM bestiary to Paper Mario/Tattle Information because most of it is tattle info. Then all the hard work going into the sub article wouldn't get deleted if the most users decide to get rid of all bestiaries. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
Trivia sections are a contentious part of the wiki. Lengthy trivia sections with wrong/stupid/pointless content were an issue in the early years of the site and while there’s been a successful effort to clean them up, they’ve retained a stigma as a dumping ground for low-effort writing. As part of it, there’s been a drive to gently discourage such sections and instead steer people toward “incorporating” trivia content in other parts of the article. It’s not a bad notiom, but I do think it’s had some unhappy results (more on that later) even if it would be absurd to suggest it is an equivalent problem
:It's actually a bestiary that contains Tattle information. Super Mario RPG doesn't have Tattle information, but it does have Psychopath thoughts. There's a clear different, so bestiary is a broad term that works for all four games. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 15:59, 1 December 2009 (EST)


@Redstar: You can't make a new option without defining it. What exactly are you opposing? Instead, make the header something specific like "Allow RPG bestiaries only". Also, since the proposal has been changed, those votes without valid reasons will be removed. {{User|Knife}}
Somewhat counter to common wisdom, I think the problem with Trivia sections is that not that they’re not narrow and curated enough, but rather than they’re not ''broad'' enough.  
:Okay, I'm tired. Are you telling me I need to oppose something more specific? I'll re-work my oppose just in case. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 16:40, 1 December 2009 (EST)


No, you misunderstood me. I meant change the title of your section from "oppose" to an option more specific.{{User|Knife}}
What I’ve noticed is that many wikis out there don’t have Trivia sections. They however, have ''Notes'' section. So say, the Transformers Wiki, might have a Notes section on their comic pages and besides the obvious Trivia fodder like “This is the only issue of the Marvel comic Optimus Prime doesn’t appear in”, they also list other information about the production or substance of the subject. Things like


Ok I agree that it should only be for Paper Mario games and SMRPG, but no other games, so my proposal wa, once again, edited. Hopefully, now I won't have to edit it anymore. So everyone can change their vote or whatever. {{User|Fawfulfury65}}
*Cultural references (in case where they’re not prevalent enough to sustain a whole section


==Removals==
*Stylistic elements (characters being drawn differently or an episode having a different  animation style)
''None at the moment.


==Splits & Merges==
*Mentioning things that don't fit neatly in List of appearances (Stuff like "In a cereal commercial, Mario mentions having a pet chicken)
===Category Split===
OK, this proposal is to propose that we split [[:Category:Featured Articles]] into Category:Featured Articles and Category:Featured Images. I have no idea why featured ''images'' are categorized as featured ''articles'' but I just have this feeling that they should both get their own individual categories. The only change that would be needed to do this would be a little edit to {{tem|FI}}. This is an easy thing to do and will stop images from being categorized as articles.<br>
'''Proposer:''' {{User|Marioguy1}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' Friday December 4th, 2009 (8:00 EST)


====Split====
*Narrative elements (a character behaving differently for a single installment or having some speech quirk they only have in that specific installment. Pointing out that a comic issue was the introduction of some plot element that would become prominent in further installments of the franchise, etc etc. ''That kind of thing'')  
#{{User|Marioguy1}} - Per above.
#{{user|Coincollector}} - Agree with Marioguy1. Period.
#{{User|FunkyK38}} - Umm.... yeah. Why are Featured Images counted as Featured Articles? Makes sense. Per Marioguy1.
#{{User|Vini64}} Wow... Per Marioguy1.
#{{User|Edofenrir}} - Per Em Gee Won.
#{{User|Fawfulfury65}} Per all.
#{{User|Super Mario Bros.}} Huh? Darn, that is my mistake. When I was creating that template, I copied the coding from {{Tem|FA}} so that I could have a reference. I forgot to change the category. Anyway, obviously, Images aren't even articles, so this makes sense.
#{{User|MATEOELBACAN}} Per All.
#{{User|Gamefreak75}} Per MG1.
#{{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} Makes more sense, and a lot organized.
#{{User|Reversinator}} Agreed.
#{{User|T.c.w7468}}Uh... yeah, per all (though who would oppose?)
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} MG1 brings up a good point; per him.
#{{User|King Bean}} - Per all.
#{{User|4DJONG}} Agreed.


====Remain====
If you need a clearer idea, https://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Transformers_(issue)#Notes is an example of what Notes sections are used for. It's not a perfect comparison because TFWiki is a different wiki that does things differently, and some of the thing they put in their notes we would put in more specialized sections like Appearances, Personality, Development etc on here. Still, I think it gives an idea of where I'm going at. There are noteworthy things that can’t be smoothly inserted into plot and content descriptions. I think covering such content is an area the wiki is currently weak in. I also feel it would lead to better flow.


====Comments====
A few years ago, I tested the waters and put Notes sections on a bunch of a pages I created. Most editors didn’t get what I was going for and either renamed them to Trivia or tried to incorporate them somewhere in the rest of the article. I’ll bring up  [[La nuit des vivants-morts]] as an example: it’s a skit from the funny French Donkey Kong variety show, and since that show loves its hack comedy, there’s a running gag where the zombie characters draw out the “aaaaaaa”s in their speech.  It's a noteworthy element of the skit’s humour, but it’s not relevant to the “plot” of it. I made a notes section to describe it, but another editor removed the section and instead  stuck the bit at the end of the lead, which just looks awkward as hell: it’s worth a mention, but is not something so vital and unique that  it warrants being on there.


===Merge RPG Boss Aspects With Main Boss Articles===
So yeah, I propose to blanket rename all Trivia sections to “Notes” and tolerate a wider variety of content on them. Another potential benefit I see is that it could potentially reduce the amount of stereotypical bad Trivia content: it just seems to me that in some people, the word “Trivia” activates the monke brain of us that wants to just Say Stuff no matter how overspecific and uninteresting, where “Notes” is more boring and stuffy and might not encourage such urges.  
This proposal is for support of moving a particular type of boss minion (as explained below) in the RPG games to their related main boss article. This is because these particular minions are ''only'' encountered in battle alongside bosses, because their Tattle information suggests they are either a part of or actually are the boss, because the main boss article is lacking complete information, and finally, because the splitting of these minions has largely resulted in stubs.


The following are a list of which minions are proposed to be merged, to whom, and why.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Glowsquid}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 9, 2025, 23:59 GMT


#The four Elemental Crystals in [[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]], being [[Fire Crystal]], [[Water Crystal]], [[Earth Crystal]], and [[Wind Crystal]]. All but the Wind Crystal are stubs, composed of mostly only a single sentence and an enemy template. These enemies are only ever fought alongside [[Culex]], whose article already covers most of the information these stubs have. I propose merging these articles as sections of the main Culex page and creating redirects.
====Support (change trivia to notes)====
#The [[Bowser???]] article to the main [[Koopa Bros.]] article as a sub-section. This enemy is not another boss, but a different round of the Koopa Bros. battle. In fact, the Bowser??? is occupied and controlled by the Koopa Bros., making it more a weapon than an actual character/enemy. It should be noted that the Koopa Bros. article contains information on all four Ninjakoopas, rather than each of them having their own page. Merging would make this article more comprehensive.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} I think this "Glowsquid" guy has the right idea!
# The [[Tubba Blubba's Heart]] article to the main [[Tubba Blubba]] article as a section. Though sentient, Tubba Blubba's heart is essentially the same character as Tubba Blubba and acts as the first round to that boss fight. Dividing them gives the impression that both are bosses, despite the fact they're the ''same'' boss, as well as treats them as different characters. The heart is more like a different personality than a character. Merging with the main Tubba Blubba page completes the article and joins together the fragmented description of the two-part boss battle.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I think this is a good idea that will give us a healthier relationship with these sections.
#The [[Petit Piranha]] and [[Lava Bud]] articles with the main [[Lava Piranha]] boss article. They are only ever encountered during the boss fight with the Lava Piranha. In fact, Lava Bud's Tattle description says "Lava Buds are little flower branching out from the main stem of the Lava Piranha.". This clearly points out they're only different "heads" of the same enemy. Petit Buds are spewed from Lava Buds, making them also part of the Lava Piranha. All are really the same enemy, so they should be merged to provide comprehensive information on the singular character.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} A thousand times yes! A trivia rework has been ''long'' overdue, and we think a shift in scope is just what we need to keep the article's flow intact, while providing a proper space for information that doesn't fit snugly into other parts of the articles.
#The [[Tuff Puff]] article into the main boss [[Huff N. Puff]] article. Tuff Puffs are only ever encountered in battle with the boss Huff N. Puff, and their Tattle information even says "These are the Tuff Puffs that break off when you damage Huff N. Puff." This clearly makes them the same enemy, just different "heads". Merge as a section.
#{{User|Sparks}} Definitely the right idea!
#And, finally, the [[Crystal Bit]] article into the main boss [[Crystal King]] article. Just like all the previous examples, Crystal Bits are only ever encountered in battle with the boss Crystal King. Also, like some of the previous examples, their Tattle description says " This is a Crystal Bit. '''Basically, Crystal Bits are just pieces of the Crystal King.''' You can drop 'em with ease. Their Max HP is 1 and they're only dangerous when the Crystal King spews 'em out. Their defense power is 0. These guys are pretty weak. They'll keep coming, though, until you've finally beaten the Crystal King." This clearly says they are the same enemy, just different "pieces".
#{{User|Mario}} I do like to see a solid guidelines for what should entail in these notes sections. I do think they're great places for information that isn't handled in existing spots in our articles. I'd like to see more examples being done, but I can try to help here. For recurring characters, section such a section can deal with trivia found in promotional events or merchandise, such as a hypothetical commercial that reveals Mario being a cockatiel owner. The [[Shitamachi Ninjō Gekijō|Lily Franky stuff]] that I'm not going to go into detail, for instance, describes a shocking depiction Mario and friends (reenacted with plushies it seems) that cannot be covered in Mario's history page due to not being a game installment nor can it be in his personality section due to it clearly being off-color and one-note (not even a bullet point; this sort of thing is so minor it's so much better off as, well, a trivia point. For smaller articles like the La nuit des vivants-morts, this is definitely where such a section should be useful without taking undue prominence in the lead summary of the page. I'm hoping this doesn't lead to these just being souped up trivia sections like in some wikias (god forbid we have a bullet point that's like "''Dark Samus is the only character in Smash Bros who is an evil echo of an existing character who has a pink alt and floats during an idle animation.''") but we should at least try this first.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all, especially Mario. '''''Note:''' SolemnStormcloud is the first user in this proposal to use the phrase "Per all" as their reasoning.''
#[[User:Winstein|Winstein]] ([[User talk:Winstein|talk]]) Looks like a good idea, and I am for it.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I still worry about drive-by edits - there are legitimate pieces of information that work better within the body paragrpahs. But this seems like an improvement and more critically well-defined.
#{{User|Tails777}} I personally have always seen the Trivia section as a "fun facts" kind of section where the information there doesn't fit into any other sections. And I feel this could also help prevent drawing out sections with random details that just end up starting their own paragraphs, especially opening sections. I'm willing to give this idea a solid shot.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per everyone. Never liked the "trivia" title.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} this is the kind of forward-thinking, wide-reaching proposals i like to see. per all!
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} As long as it doesn't become a dumping ground of a barely-coherent string of consciousness like some fandom wikis treat their trivia sections, I like this idea. <small>And might I say, it's good to see a familiar purple-name glowing again.</small>
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Nice to see a proposal that singlehandedly fixes my two biggest gripes with the Trivia section. This would keep users from feeling obligated to move every point from there to other places where they don't belong, ''and'' the new name stops readers from dismissing the points that remain as minutia.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Rehabilitating trivia sections genuinely sounds like a great idea, since there's often information that doesn't cleanly fit into any section. I'm all for this!
#{{User|Ray Trace}} I've made a Marioboards topic about this all the way back if [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/42301/ you want my choice thoughts on this.]
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I agree that Trivia needs reworking, particularly the part about encouraging that information be incorporated into parts of articles where it doesn't properly fit, and I think this proposal offers a good solution.


In summation, here is a quick and easy list of what this proposal will accomplish:
====Oppose (leave Trivia as it currently is)====


#Remove stubs by merging them with their main articles
====Comments====
#Create more complete articles by piecing together all the information in one place
A concern of mine is that in several places on this wiki — particularly the [[Mario Kart (series)]] article, since I used to edit those tables frequently back in the day — the "notes" header is used for footnotes put on a table. I'm a little concerned about the shared terminology there. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 15:28, January 26, 2025 (EST)
#Remove unnecessary division of information
:Renaming those sections "footnotes" should solve that. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:51, January 26, 2025 (EST)
::I'm also concerned about it. Why rename it "notes" when pretty much all game wikis have a trivia section? What strikes me as odd- as OP has also pointed out- is that the Mario Wiki seems to have a negative bias towards the word "trivia" and the very use of the section (lots of characters who would have a lot of trivia points because of their particular characteristics that distinguish them from others have the section practically unused. I am also an Inkipedia user, and while I do feel that sometimes trivia can be a bit too crowded, at least the section is used for the purpose I (and everyone else in the wiki) think is right. In my opinion, calling trivia "notes" and notes "footnotes" is confusing since the sections have been called "trivia" and "notes" in this wiki since more than a decade. The only thing we should do is to avoid associating the word "trivia" with a negative connotation, especially since the phenomenon of overly crowded trivia sections is way long gone.--[[User:Wallowigi|Wallowigi]] ([[User talk:Wallowigi|talk]]) 09:25, January 31, 2025 (EST)


And reasons why:
@Mario: "that cannot be covered in Mario's history page due to not being a game installment" - huh? Plenty of non-game content is covered in history sections, from cartoons to movies to manga. Why should this be an exception? Is it for being obscure? If so, why should that matter? I disagree with the idea that we should be deeming appearances "major" or "minor" and giving the "minor" information less prominence, that's just asking for subjectivity and bias to come into play. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:39, January 26, 2025 (EST)
:What I mean is that the Lily Franky thing isn't a game, movie, or a cartoon. It's supplementary promotional material, a virtual magazine akin to Nintendo Power. We don't really cover it in Mario's history page due to information from a magazine simply not being appropriate for history that focuses on narrative works (we don't have merchandise in the history section); the same goes for, say, a guidebook 4-koma where Luigi "size" shames Mario. I provided additional context for my argument using the "pet cockatiel from a commercial" sort of example, which wouldn't really fit anywhere in Mario's page except in a trivia section. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:57, January 26, 2025 (EST)
::It is a narrative work though, crude as that narrative may be, and it's not tied to a particular game like a guidebook would be (so we can't just cover it in another game's section). If it can have its own page on the wiki, I don't see why it can't get a section in a history page. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:37, January 27, 2025 (EST)
:::Agreed with Hewer that Lily Franky giving Mario an "off-color" depiction and being "too obscure to be noted" are not proper reasons to omit coverage on Mario's article. Those broadcasts have some narrative qualities to them and are part of the character's history in media licensed by Nintendo, so I'd rather the wiki abstain from relegating those into a <s>Trivia</s> Notes section. Besides, there's some precedent of covering things related to neither gameplay nor story as part of a character's history: the "History of Wario" page [[History of Wario#Nintendo Kids Space|runs over a host of appearances of Wario in promotional web content]], which were explicitly brought up (and unchallenged) at the parent article's [[MarioWiki:Featured articles/N2/Wario|feature nomination]]. Make of that what you will. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:54, January 28, 2025 (EST)


#The information is divided. Putting it all in one place creates more complete articles as well as removes stubs
I wouldn't oppose broader coverage of trivia (look at Shedinja's [[bulbapedia:Shedinja#1 HP trivia|dedicated trivia section]], which is already very long), but I am a bit wary of changing the title to "notes" as the name "trivia" indicates fun, unimportant facts that wouldn't fit into the page proper, while "notes" feel more like formal stuff that could be added into pages proper.
#Many of these divisions are enemies that are either different rounds of a boss, or just their weapon. Still others are just pieces of the boss, so aren't really a different enemy


If anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to use the Comments section below. Hopefully I provided enough information to make a decision. If you agree with this proposal in general, but you don't agree with some of the merges or are wary of the reason ''why'', feel free to comment about it and we can discuss it. This is a big proposal and I don't want anyone Opposing if they don't agree with just one aspect.
I would also be fine adding a secondary "notes" or "development" (games)/"behind the scenes" (films) section to pages, on top of keeping the Trivia section. This could be added separately, or in the Trivia section, like the origin/name origin in the Pokémon pages in Bulbapedia. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 20:40, January 26, 2025 (EST)
:Lots of games already have "development" sections. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:37, January 27, 2025 (EST)


'''Proposer:''' [[User:Redstar|Redstar]]<br>
All my joking aside, I remember when [[Cackletta]]'s article was a Spotlight focus in Issue 203 of ''The 'Shroom'' for having an overly long trivia section. A trivia point on the final battle with Cackletta's soul bearing similarities to the final boss from [[AlphaDream]]'s first game, ''Koto Battle: Tengai no Moribito'', was integrated into [[Cackletta#Bowser's Castle|the boss section proper]], but it feels very inelegant to suddenly start describing a boss from a different, non-''Super Mario'' game in the middle of the article. Is it fine to move that point back once this proposal passes? {{User:SolemnStormcloud/sig}} 12:08, January 28, 2025 (EST)
'''Deadline:''' December 8, 2009, 17:00
:Oh yeah. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm pushing for. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 18:54, January 28, 2025 (EST)


====Support====
How about game-specific details that don't go into prose well? Like the fact that in ''Paper Mario'', Goomba (and Spiked Goomba?) is the only enemy with a specific "electrocuted" sprite? Would that call for a different "notes" subsection under the ''Paper Mario'' section? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:35, January 30, 2025 (EST)
#{{User|Redstar}} - Per proposal
#{{User|Fawfulfury65}} First off, we'll just put their tattles in the same article. Not really any harm in that. Since those enemies are controlled of part of that enemy, they should be in the same article. So per Redstar's proposal.
#{{User|Baby Mario Bloops}} - First of all for all the opposers, they are battled at the same time, asist in the battles, and has too much information linking to the bosses. Also, do we want stubs, or articles? This is too little information for both the bosses and minions to be articles beyond stubs.
#{{User|Marioguy1}} - This would combine all kinds of useful information into one place - making it easier to access.
#{{User|MATEOELBACAN}}- Per all, we '''need''' this!
#{{User|BabyLuigiOnFire}} These are stub-like articles that are just simply part of the bosses. I think it's ridiculous that projectiles or other stuff like that used by bosses have their very own article.
#{{User|Knife}} - Changed vote. I recently stumbled on [[Straw]], which technically is part of a boss. If this proposal fails, we would have to keep that article. We'd also have to split [[Exor]] for consistency (which is literally composed of body parts). Just because an enemy can be targeted and has a tattle, doesn't mean it needs an article.
#{{User|Vellidragon}} - Per Knife, mainly. Having individual articles for different parts of the same boss/enemy seems unnecessary; it's like devoting an individual article to [[Corkpedite]]'s body (or the Goomnut tree in the [[King Goomba]] battle for that matter, since it can be targeted). I see no reason not to merge them, all it would do is make getting information on the respective boss fights easier since it's all in one place.


====Oppose====
===Merge the Ancient Beanbean Civilizations to List of implied species (and Hooroglyphs info to that)===
#{{user|Tucayo}} - Different tattles, different battles, different enemy, different article
Another multiple-way merge! This is about the following articles:
#{{User|Vini64}} Per Tucayo.
*[[List of implied species]]
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} - Per Tucayo.
*[[Hoohoo civilization]]
#{{User|Edofenrir}} - And next we merge Magnus Van Grapple with Lord Crump? It's the same guy, just surrounded by a load of metal. I disagree. per Tucayo.
*[[Soybean civilization]]
#{{User|FunkyK38}} - Per Tucky and Edo. They shouldn't be merged, and with all these merges, where are we going to draw a line for what needs to be merged and what doesn't?
*[[Hooroglyphs]]
#{{User|Gamefreak75}} Per Tucayo and Edo.
#{{User|Lemmy Koopa Fan}} Per Tucayo and Edofenrir.
#{{User|Reversinator}} Per Tucayo and Edo.
#{{User|King Bean}} - Per Edo.


====Removal of Votes====
Simply put, these are all ancient civilizations that we don't encounter in-game, since. Well. They're long-gone ancient civilizations that are only ever mentioned alongside occasional things that originate from them, most notably the statue [[Hoohooros]], but also [[Hooroglyphs]] and [[Beanstone]]s. While we can understand keeping Hoohooros and Beanstones split--the former is a full boss encounter, the latter is a key item involved in a sidequest--we're less sure about Hooroglyphs in particular. Merges for the civilizations have been called for since around late 2023, and we think the Hooroglyphs should be merged as their split mostly comes from the decision to make a page for them back in ''March 2007'', actually predating the Hoohoo civilization article. We've provided an option for keeping Hooroglyphs split, though we imagine it'd be better to merge this with the Hoohoo civilization information.
'''Tucayo''' (by extension, those that "per"ed him without providing suitable reasons themselves)
#{{User|Redstar}} - If I'm reading the "How To" right, I can vote to remove a vote. It's not specific, so I assume it extends to both Supports and Opposes. Anyways, I'd like to put in a vote for removing Tucayo's vote, for, as I explained in the initial proposal description and the below comments, all of these examples are fought in the same battle (so not "different battles") and, although they have different tattles, their tattles explicitly say they either are a part of the enemy, or '''are''' that enemy. I feel his vote is a bit misleading for potential voters, so, if anything, could he at least remove those two parts, and anyone that voted "per" him elaborate on why they're agreeing if his reason has to change?
#{{User|MATEOELBACAN}} - I agree, that isn't detailed.


'''Edofenrir''' (by extension, those that "per"ed him without providing suitable reasons themselves)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
#{{User|Redstar}} - Now, I don't want to vote to remove Edo's vote entirely (if so, that would basically null every other vote), but is "I disagree" a valid reason?
'''Deadline''': February 13, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Marioguy1}} - True, all but the "Per Tucayo" part gives no reason. It only gives an exaggeration of the point.
#{{User|MATEOELBACAN}} - Sure, that's too exaggerated.


====Comments====
====Merge all (merge Hoohoo/Soybean Civilizations to List, merge Hooroglyphs to the Hoohoo Civilization section)====
@Tucayo: Lava Piranha before and after becoming covered in fire gets a different Tattle description... Does this make the two different enemies? No, it doesn't, and many other enemies are of the same circumstances. Many of these proposed merges have Tattles that specifically say they are a part of, or the ''same'' being as the enemy. The different body parts of [[Exor]] aren't divided among different articles, even though they each have different stat-spreads and tattles (Psychopath Thoughts). Likewise, all of these "minions" or extensions of the main boss are fought in the ''same'' battle, not different ones. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 16:51, 1 December 2009 (EST)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves; these civilizations don't have as much plot relevance nor lore behind them as something like, say, [[Squirpina XIV]] or the [[Flora Kingdom royalty]], at most serving as the origin for [[Hoohooros]].
:Thanks for noticing, we should split Exor. {{user|Tucayo}}
::Uhh, yeah. I don't think anyone's going to support splitting a character just because they have different points of attack. But if this proposal fails, I suppose it would extend to Exor. I suppose next you'll want to make individual pages for the Koopa Bros.. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 16:57, 1 December 2009 (EST)
:::Of course we wouldnt split Exor, that was sarcasm. Its a single enemy. {{user|Tucayo}}
 
Quote Edofenrir: "And next we merge Magnus Van Grapple with Lord Crump? It's the same guy, just surrounded by a load of metal." Well, yes. I go to [[Lord Crump]]'s page and see a section very vague. If I want the whole story, I have to go to the [[Magnus Van Grapple]] page. Why do I need to jump around to get all the information? Magnus Van Grapple is ''not'' a character, and is ''not'' a boss... Lord Crump piloting it is, so the experience should be told from his perspective, not from an inanimate object. This proposal changes little. All it does is move all the information to one place where it is the most productive. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 17:18, 1 December 2009 (EST)
 
Just to be absolutely clear, are you proposing that the 8 cases listed above should be merged, or that those and all similar cases should be merged? {{user|Twentytwofiftyseven}}
 
BMB: Yea, we dont want stubs, we want artciles, so lets ''expand'' those, merging is not a good solution. {{user|Tucayo}}
::I'm only proposing this for these 8 specific cases. There may be similar situations, but those won't immediately be affected. They should at least be discussed on their respective pages, though, if someone deems a similar merge necessary.


@FunkyK38: The line will be drawn quite cleanly. Merges will not occur all over, rendering this Wiki a copy of Wikipedia. There will still be articles dealing with a singular topic, hotlinked from main articles. The only reason these are brought up is because they are all aspects of the same enemy, just different "attack points", so to speak. Dividing them is unnecessary and only serves in spreading information which should be read in one place. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 21:58, 1 December 2009 (EST)
====Merge civilizations, leave Hooroglyphs alone====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} The glyphs are actually seen, though.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per LinkTheLefty.


After reading over my list of suggested merges, I've decided that Chompy to Tutankoopa and Shy Squad to General Guy could easily be cut. They, to a degree, are individual enemies so are more on-the-fence compared to the other examples. Would anyone change their vote in favor of this proposal if these two were removed? [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 22:06, 1 December 2009 (EST)
====Merge Hooroglyphs to Hoohoo civilization, leave civilizations alone====


===What's a Koopa?===
====Merge none (do nothing)====
I think that the pages [[Koopa]] and [[Koopa Troopa]] should be merged together because, frankly, what on earth is a Koopa? The page lists all of the sub-species of Koopa Troopas and that could be done on the page Koopa Troopa or not done at all because it is not necessary. When I think of Koopa, I think of turtle enemy-thing in Mario but this page does not describe the turtle-enemy thing, it describes its sub-species and all of those subspecies descriptions are one sentence long with {{tem|main}}! I think that Koopa=Koopa Troopa and I'm sure you will agree.


'''Proposer:''' {{User|Marioguy1}}<br>
====Comments (Indus River Valley civilization joke here)====
'''Deadline:''' Friday December 11th, 2009 (8:00 EST)
 
====Merge====
#{{User|Marioguy1}} - Per above
#<s>{{user|Tucayo}} - Per MG1, I don't know whats the difference between them.</s> Will wait to get this clarified.
#{{User|Redstar}} - The [[Koopa]] article is largely cherry-picked speculation and incomplete. Merge relevant information to the [[Koopa Troopa article]], as well as cut out the speculatory-fat and rename it "Koopa Tribe".
#{{User|Reversinator}} Per MG1
#{{User|4DJONG}} marioguy has made a good point also, the "koopa" article is pointless, simply pointless, because "Koopa" is just another name for Koopa Troopa.
 
====No Merge====
#[[User:King Bean|King Bean]] ([[User talk:King Bean|Talk]]) - No. Koopa is not the same as Koopa Troopa.
 
====Removal of Support/Oppose Votes====
'''King Bean'''
#{{User|Marioguy1}} - OK bean, I didn't want to do this and I gave you one hour to further explain your vote but you didn't so - her vote gives absolutely no reason; it says they are not the same and she did not explain why they are not the same.
 
====Comments====
I was having a discussion on a similar topic just yesterday, concerning the Hammer Bros. I think the entire thing is sort of speculative since the page amounts to more than a cherry-picked list of various turtle-like enemies, entirely excluding other candidates. If it was truly extensive, it would list a lot more. But by the same token, it'd be speculation because who knows what a "Koopa" really is? The manual says "Koopa tribe", but the term "American" covers a lot of different races and ethnicities. Whether they meant "Koopa race" or "Koopa social-group", who knows. I feel a complete overhaul of the way we classify the enemies is in order. I really don't feel Boomerang Bro., Sumo Bro., Fire Bro., etc. should be considered "sub-species" of Hammer Bro. Related (as in similar, not blood-related) enemies, yes, but the current terms really deliver inaccurate connotations. Care to make this proposal a bit more general, MG1? If so, I'd be happy to support. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 11:56, 4 December 2009 (EST)
:Reversinator: Aren't enemies species as well? Redstar: It's easy, Koopa and Koopa Troopa are the same thing. Koopa is like an expanded <nowiki>==Sections==</nowiki> section for Koopa Troopa. {{User|Marioguy1}}
::...I guess so... Fine, I'll change my vote. {{User|Reversinator}}
[[Super Mario World]] indeed lists Koopa Troopas simply as "Koopas" in the credits, which would suggest that only those are called "Koopas" and the enemies that aren't directly related to the Troopa are not. I don't think the Koopa article can be merged with Koopa Troopa like that however, since the majority of species listed in it are, in fact, quite clearly not Koopa Troopas. What it would need is a title change, or possibly a complete removal in favour of the [[Koopa Troop]] article.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 12:28, 4 December 2009 (EST)
:As I said, cut the speculatory-fat and rename it "Koopa tribe" (as you were great to bring up). I'm sure there would still be speculation involved, but far less. The name issue needs to be resolved the two articles' subjects re-defined, anyways. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 12:31, 4 December 2009 (EST)
::Will someone please explain to me What a Koopa is? This is why I named the proposal what I named it, because I have no idea what a koopa is. As far as I know, Koopas don't exist and are just another name used for Koopa Troopa. Whether they're listed as Koopas or Koopa Troopas in the credits, they're still the same thing and that thing can be renamed, like redstar said, ''after'' we figure out what they are. {{User|Marioguy1}}
:::I believe "Koopa", as suggested by the "Koopa tribe", is meant to encompass all the various turtle-races into a singular group. (Though, as far as we know, Piranha Plants could be Koopas as well under the "tribe") Koopa Troopas are just the catch-all, generic Koopa, which is why they can be called just Koopas. (Like in many sci-fi works, humans are so common that they're the "standard" in judging appearance and so on). I always just took the term Troopa, and thought it meant Koopa Troopas were "troopers"... Perhaps it's just a title? They're Koopas, unless they're a member of the Koopa ''Troop'', in which case they're "Troopas". Does that make sense? [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 12:48, 4 December 2009 (EST)
:::As far as I'm aware, "Koopa" in the Japanese games has always been no more than a name; that of [[Bowser]], to be exact. The mention of a "Koopa tribe" and names like "Koopa Troopa" are afaik exclusive to the English localisation (Koopa Troopas for instance are named Noko-Noko in Japan, Koopa Paratroopas are Pata-Pata), and I don't think it has ever been officially stated what a "Koopa" would be according to the translators. The closest information we can get is the Koopa Troopas being referred to as Koopas in SMW's ending, which as Redstar pointed out may just as well mean they are the most common members of a Koopa tribe (which would include other sub-species as well) as it may indicate that Koopa and Koopa Troopa refer to the same thing. No real clarity seems to come from official sources.--[[User:Vellidragon|vellidragon]] 13:04, 4 December 2009 (EST)
Vellidragon: That's what [[Koopa (disambiguation)]] and {{tem|articleabout}} are for :P<br>
Redstar: All of that goes under [[Koopa Troop]]. {{User|Marioguy1}}
:The Koopa Troop is the personal army of Bowser's (hence the "Troopa" part applied to Koopas that fight for him... Not that no Koopa that isn't sided with him has the Troopa part). The Koopa ''tribe'' would be a more broad grouping covering all Koopas regardless of political alignment. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 13:49, 4 December 2009 (EST)
::I agree with you on that part but we are straying off topic here, whether Koopa Tribe should be created or not is a topic for later discussion, right now we're talking about merging two articles together and I think we should get back to that. {{User|Marioguy1}}
:::King Bean: Can you elaborate on that? {{User|Marioguy1}}
Okay, how about this: Koopa is the species name for the generic-turtle enemies in the game, namely "Koopa Troopas". "Troopa", however, is a job title or position. Koopa Troopas are members of the Koopa Troop, making them troopers. This is supported by the Koopa Paratroopas, who take their name from paratroopers, or parachuting soldiers. This suggests that normal, wingless "Troopas" are also soldiers... Also take into account the RPG games, where we get most of our information. Enemy Koopa Troopas are specifically said to be working for Bowser. Compare this to Kent C. Koopa, an enemy that works alone, and note that his Tattle information calls him simply a "Koopa". No "Troopa" part. All the non-enemy Koopas in Koopa Village and, later, in Petalburg, are simply called Koopas. It seems highly likely that the difference is Koopa is species, and Troopa is title/position, much like the various "Bros." enemies carry the weapon or technique they use as a sort of job position-title. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 17:54, 4 December 2009 (EST)
 
==Changes==


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''
<!-- Please do not remove, archive or place comments below this message. -->
&nbsp;

Latest revision as of 02:03, February 1, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Saturday, February 1st, 12:57 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
  2. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  3. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

  • Swap the spots of the To Do List and the Mushroom World Encyclopedia boxes on the main page (discuss) Deadline: February 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Rename NES Classics (Flash game) to NES Classics (Macromedia program) (discuss) Deadline: February 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Rename Robo Kikki to "Robo Monchee" (discuss) Deadline: February 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Add VisualEditor (discuss) Deadline: February 4, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Split Dr. Luigi (character) from History of Luigi (discuss) Deadline: February 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Merge Poochy Dash into Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World and Poochy Hut (discuss) Deadline: February 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Split Waluigi (Super Mario Land 2: 6-tsu no Kinka 2) (discuss) Deadline: February 6, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Split F-Zero X (discuss) Deadline: February 7, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Reverse the proposal to trim White Shy Guy (discuss) Deadline: February 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Move Kutlass to Kutlass (enemy) (discuss) Deadline: February 10, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Split the high-ranking members of the Tiki Tak Tribe into their own pages (discuss) Deadline: February 10, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • What to do about the unresolved identity of Worlds A-C human (discuss) Deadline: February 10, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Rename Gallery:Donkey Kong Country (television series) trading cards to Gallery:Donkey Kong Card Game (trading cards) (discuss) Deadline: February 11, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Allow BJAODN comments to be made collapsible (discuss) Deadline: February 12, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Split Best Fitness Friends (form) (discuss) Deadline: February 12, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Split Animal Crossing (game) (discuss) Deadline: February 12, 2025, 23:59 GMT
  • Fix the Donkey Kong identity chaos (discuss) Deadline: February 14, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles and Super Mario Run.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games, Nintendo101 (ended December 25, 2024)
Split image categories into separate ones for assets, screenshots, and artwork, Scrooge200 (ended January 5, 2025)
Organize "List of implied" articles, EvieMaybe (ended January 12, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Make changes to List of Smash Taunt characters, Hewer (ended December 27, 2024)
Merge Wiggler Family to Dimble Wood, Camwoodstock (ended January 11, 2025)
Split the Ink Bomb, Camwoodstock (ended January 12, 2025)
Create a catch-all Poltergust article, Blinker (ended January 21, 2025)
Merge the two Clawing for More articles, Salmancer (ended January 27, 2025)
Merge Dangan Mario to Invincible Mario, PrincessPeachFan (ended January 30, 2025)
Merge Hurricane (move) into Gale Force, EvieMaybe (ended January 30, 2025)
Give the Cluck-A-Pop Prizes articles, Camwoodstock (ended January 31, 2025)

Writing guidelines

Lower Category Item Requirement from 4 to 3

This was spurred by the introduction of the to-do bar. Thanks, to-do bar! Anyways, if you look at Special:WantedCategories, at the moment, it's all entries with 3 or fewer items each; this makes sense, given we have a policy that suggests categories are kept to only 4 or more items. However, for a good portion of the 3-itemers, these are all fairly featured images from sources like various short flash advergames, or more niche subjects like the MediaBrowser which came in a series of, well, 3 web browsers. In comparison to the 1-or-2 entry, well, entries, these have a bit more substance to them, basically waiting for a fourth image to be taken at some point; and while in some cases, that image can come up, in others... Well, what are the odds a fourth MediaBrowser is releasing when they went bust back in 2001, y'know?

While we don't feel strongly about what happens to the 1 or 2 entry categories, we do think there is just enough to these 3-entry categories to warrant a closer look our current policies are not providing. Should we lower the cutoff to 3? Or is 4 the magical number for categories?

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: February 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Lower to 3 (triple trouble!)

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per ourselves, of course. We don't see any particular harm in this when, as of submitting this proposal, this would only create, what, 10 categories?
  2. Pseudo (talk) Makes sense to me, especially because, if an individual is uploading images to the wiki for a source that currently has no images, there's a solid chance that that person will upload three images. It's a popular number!
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Three is a magic number.

Keep at 4 (forced to four!)

  1. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Porple in the comments, image categories don't have this restriction so the proposal seems moot otherwise. I don't see a benefit to reducing this limit across the board, and I'm very hesitant to support without a clearer picture of the implications. (The assertion in the comments that this wouldn't have immediate impact was based on the list on Special:WantedCategories - there weren't any categories there besides image ones because that would require mainspace articles to have redlinked categories that would go against policy if you made them. Obviously, that wouldn't fly.)
  2. Sparks (talk) Per Porplemontage and Waluigi Time.
  3. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
  4. Super Mario RPG (talk) Honestly, five would be a better restriction so that it's a well rounded number.
  5. Jdtendo (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
  6. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per Waluigi Time.

Comments (wait, letters in numbers?)

The intent of that restriction is that, for example, if there aren't four articles for Category:Super Paper Mario characters then the couple characters would just go in Category:Super Paper Mario rather than create the subcategory. Image categories are different since moving up the tree in the same way would be undesirable (there would be a bunch of random images at the bottom of Category:Game images rather than those categories being redlinked). We can create image categories with as few as one entry; I updated MarioWiki:Categories. If you still want to change the number needed for articles, up to you. --Steve (talk) Get Firefox 22:38, January 21, 2025 (EST)

Oh! We didn't know that, good to know! We'd like to proceed with the proposal, even if we don't think it'd have any immediate impact under these rules--all the 3-item categories have to do with images at the moment. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 22:41, January 21, 2025 (EST)

New features

Split Mario & Luigi Badges & Remaining Accessories

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on February 1, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

We realize this is a bit presumptuous given the proposal to split the clothing is, as of writing this, the oldest unimplemented Talk Page Proposal, and it isn't even close (it's the only proposal on that list from 2021!). However, we're a little surprised the badges and accessories weren't included in that proposal! Like clothing, there are multiple badges that appear across multiple games (such as remakes, but also the various Bangles from Dream Team/Brothership, Scarves and Statues in Dream Team/Paper Jam) and things different between them (did you know the base Mush Badge isn't in the Super Star remake? Only Mush Badges A and AA. you'd only know this comparing the two lists.)

In addition, a few of the accessories are already split; namely, the special items from the Starbeans Cafe, like the Greed Wallet or Great Force. We don't know what exactly to do if this split doesn't happen, so we've added an extra option to retain those articles but keep things to their lists, and one that just merges everything back to the lists.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: February 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Split 'em all (fire up that button pin maker!)

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal, of course. There's enough recurrence and differences here that we feel like this has ample reason to exist beyond just consistency's sake.
  2. Arend (talk) Might as well do it. Heck, maybe it will incentivize someone to actually do something about that clothes proposal.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
  4. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  5. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.
  6. Hewer (talk) Huh, this wasn't included in the clothing proposal?
  7. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  8. Jdtendo (talk) If this is just a confirmation of the scope of an already passed proposal, then why not (provided it actually gets implemented).
  9. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.

Keep badges and remaining accessories merged, but keep Starbeans items split (the status quo option!)

Merge 'em all (those are SO out of style!)

Comments (splittin' badges/accessories)

I almost want to oppose this proposal until the clothing articles gets actually split. I tried cancelling that one six month ago (to no avail) and I'd really rather not want to have another proposal like it just waiting for someone to implement. — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 14:43, January 25, 2025 (EST)

The original proposal was "split everything here." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:06, January 26, 2025 (EST)

The wording is a bit vague, admittedly. The way the proposal was archived says only clothing, but the actual article suggests all gear. Which, hey, it'd be nice to at least confirm it. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 01:10, January 26, 2025 (EST)

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Allow users to remove friendship requests from their talk page

This proposal is not about banning friendship requests. Rather, it's about allowing users to remove friendship requests on their talk page. The reason for this is that some people are here to collaborate on a giant community project on the Super Mario franchise. Sure, it's possible to ignore it, but some may want to remove it outright, like what happened here. I've seen a few talk pages that notify that they will ignore friendship requests, like here, and this proposal will allow users to remove any friend requests as they see fit.

If this proposal passes, only the user will be allowed to remove friendship requests from their talk pages, including the user in the first link should they want to remove it again.

This proposal falls directly in line with MarioWiki:Courtesy, which states: "Talking and making friends is fine, but sometimes a user simply wants to edit, and they should be left to it."

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 29, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to February 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.
  2. Shadow2 (talk) Excuse me?? We actually prohibit this here? Wtf?? That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Literally any other platform that has ever existed gives you the ability to deny or remove friend requests... They don't just sit there forever. What if your talk page just gets swamped with friend requests from random people you don't know, taking up space and getting in the way? I also don't think it's fair, or very kind, to say "just ignore them". It'll just sit there as a reminder of a less-than-ideal relationship between two users that doesn't need to be put up on display. Honestly I didn't even know we did "Friends" on this site...maybe the better solution is to just get rid of that entirely. This is a wiki, not social media.
  3. RetroNintendo2008 (talk) Per Shadow2's comment.
  4. Waluigi Time (talk) IMO, the spirit of the no removing comments rule is to avoid disrupting wiki business by removing comments that are relevant to editing, records of discipline, and the like. I don't think that removing friend requests and potentially other forms of off-topic chatter is harmful if the owner of the talk page doesn't want them.
  5. EvieMaybe (talk) per WT
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) If someone doesn't want something ultimately unrelated to the wiki on their talk page, they shouldn't be forced to keep it. Simple-as. It would be one thing if it was "remove any conversation", as that could be particularly disruptive, but for friend requests, it's so banal that we can't see the harm in allowing people to prune those if they deem it fit.
  7. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal and Waluigi Time. No, I do think this is principally fine. Though I do not support the broader scope envisioned by Shadow2.
  8. LinkTheLefty (talk) Agreed with N101.
  9. Paper Plumm (talk) While the concerns presented by the opposing side are valid, I think we should allow people to have the ability to control this sort of thing, this will have no consequence to you if you enjoy having friend requests however for those who are against this they are able to gain a net positive in relieving themselves of needless clutter. As per the broader ideas presented, that definitely needs its own vote, however again I am of the mind that the option should be made available but not forced upon all.
  10. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal, Waluigi Time, Camwoodstock, and Paper Plumm.
  11. Daisy4Days (talk) Per proposal. I just don’t see why one should have to keep that; it’s completely unrelated to editing the wiki.

Oppose

  1. Ray Trace (talk) This hasn't been a problem as if lately and doesn't really fix anything. Just ignore the comments unless it's warning/block-worthy behavior like harassment or vandalism.
  2. Hewer (talk) I don't really see the point of this. A user can ignore friend requests, or any messages for that matter, without having to delete them.
  3. Sparks (talk) Friend requests are not any kind of vandalism or flaming. However, if they falsely claim to be their friend and steal their userbox then it would be an issue.
  4. Jdtendo (talk) I don't see why we would allow the removal of friend requests specifically and no other kind of non-insulting comments.
  5. Technetium (talk) No one even does friend requests nowadays.
  6. Mario (talk) Iffy on this. The case was a fringe one due to a user removing a very old friend request comment done by a user that I recall had sent out friend requests very liberally. I don't think it should be exactly precedent setting, especially due to potential for misuse (removing friend requests may be seen as an act of hostility, maybe impolite even if unintentional; ignoring it also has the problem but not as severe). Additionally, friend requests are not as common as they used to be, and due to this I just rather users exercise discretion rather than establish policy I don't think is wholly necessary. My preference is leaving up to individual to set boundaries for friend requests; a lot of users already request no friend requests, no swear words, or no inane comments on their talk pages and this is where they reserve that right to remove it or censor it. Maybe instead we can have removing friend requests be within rules, but it must be declared first in the talk page, either through a comment ("sorry, I don't accept friend requests") or as a talk page rule.
  7. Tails777 (talk) I can see the logic behind allowing people to remove such requests from their talk pages, but at the same time, yeah, it's not really as common anymore. I just feel like politely declining is as friendly as it can get and flat out deleting them could just lead to other negative interactions.
  8. Mushroom Head (talk) It’s honestly rude to just delete them. If they were not nice, I guess it would make sense, but I can’t get over it when others delete your message.
  9. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) A friend request ain't gonna hurt you. If you have a problem with it, you can always just reject it.
  10. Arend (talk) On top of what everyone else has already said, I think leaving them there is more useful for archival purposes.
  11. MCD (talk) This seems like something that would spark more pointless arguments and bad blood than it would prevent, honestly. Nothing wrong with saying 'no' if you really don't want to be friends with them, or just ignoring it. Also, the example that sparked this isn't anything to do with courtesy - the message in question was from 9 years ago and was not removed because the user was uncomfortable with it, but they seem to be basically starting their whole account from scratch and that was the one message on the page. In that context, I think removing the message was fine, but anything like that should decided on a case-by-case basis if there's nothing wiki-related or worth archiving otherwise.
  12. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
  13. Green Star (talk) Friend requests may not be especially helpful when it comes to building an encyclopedia, but allowing users to remove rather than simply ignore them isn't exactly helpful for building a friendly and welcoming community.

Nintendo101 (talk) It is not our place to remove talkpage comments — regardless of comment — unless it is harassment or vandalization, to which stuff like this is neither. I really think this energy and desire to helping out is best spent trying to elaborate on our thinner articles, of which there are many.

Comments

@Nintendo101 Ignoring friendship requests and removing them are basically the same thing. It's not required to foster a collaborative community environment, whether a user wants to accept a friendship request or not. Super Mario RPG (talk) 09:52, January 15, 2025 (EST)

I think it is fine for users to ignore friend requests and even remove them if they so choose. I do not think it is the place of another user — without being asked — to remove them, especially on older user talk pages. — Nintendo101 (talk) 10:03, January 15, 2025 (EST)
@Nintendo101 The proposal is for only the user whom the talk page belongs to removing friend requests being allowed to remove friend requests, not others removing it from their talk page for them. I tried to make it clear with bold emphasis. Super Mario RPG (talk) 10:04, January 15, 2025 (EST)
Do we really need a proposal for this, though? And besides, I don't think friend requests are much of a thing here anymore. Technetium (talk) 10:24, January 15, 2025 (EST)
I would've thought not, though a user got reverted for removing a friend request from own talk page (see proposal text). Super Mario RPG (talk) 10:26, January 15, 2025 (EST)
My bad, I thought you had removed it to begin with. Apologies for the misunderstanding. Technetium (talk) 10:50, January 15, 2025 (EST)

Adding on, there's a BIG difference between "Removing a warning or disciplinary action", "Hiding or censoring past discussions"...and "Getting rid of a little friend request". Sure it's important to retain important information and discussions on a talk page, but if it's not relevant to anything or important then the user shouldn't be forced to keep it forever. Perhaps a more meaningful proposal would be, "Allow users to remove unimportant information from their talk page". I've looked at the talk pages for some users on this wiki, and some of them are filled with...a lot. Like, a ton of roleplay stuff, joking and childish behaviour, gigantic images that take up a ton of space. Is it really vitally necessary to retain this "information"? Can't we be allowed to clean up our talk pages or remove stuff that just doesn't matter? Stuff that doesn't actually relate in any way to editing on the wiki or user behaviour? Compare to Wikipedia, a place that is generally considered to be much more serious, strict and restrictive than here...and you are allowed to remove stuff from your talk page on Wikipedia. In fact, you're even allowed to remove disciplinary warnings. So why is it so much more locked-down here? Shadow2 (talk) 08:55, January 16, 2025 (EST)

I've been trying to convey this very thing. I'm not against people befriending on the wiki, or even WikiLove to help motivate others. But there's a big difference between removing friend requests to removing formal warnings, reminders, and block notices from one's talk page. Super Mario RPG (talk) 09:24, January 16, 2025 (EST)
"I've looked at the talk pages for some users on this wiki, and some of them are filled with...a lot. [...] Is it really vitally necessary to retain this 'information'?"
It absolutely is for those users on the talk pages. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:12, January 16, 2025 (EST)
...Right...And it's their choice to keep it. But as I understand it, the rules of this website prevents those users from removing it if they should so choose. Shadow2 (talk) 20:44, January 16, 2025 (EST)
I just don't see the issue. Those talk pages you cited are typically content exchanged between two users who know each other well enough. It doesn't happen with two strangers. If you don't want the content in the rare case some random person decides to post an image you don't like, then reply to it to indicate such, and it shouldn't be posted again. If they do it again, it's a courtesy violation and it's actionable, just ask sysops to remove it. It's not really violating the spirit of the "no removing comments" rule. Our current rules are already equipped to deal with this, I don't think it's a great idea to remove this content in most cases without at least prior notice, which I think this proposal will allow. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:59, January 16, 2025 (EST)
That's the problem right there, you've perfectly outlined it. "some random person decides to post an image you don't like, then reply to it to indicate such, and it shouldn't be posted again". But the image is still there, even though I don't want it to be there. Why does the image I don't like have to remain permanently affixed to my talk page, taking up space and not doing anything to further the building of this wiki? Rather, I should be allowed to say "I don't like this image, I am going to remove it now." Shadow2 (talk) 22:49, January 16, 2025 (EST)

I want to make something clear: under the current policy for user talk pages, "you cannot remove conversations or comments, unless they are acts of vandalism or trolling". Comments that you can remove are the exception, not the norm. If this proposal passes, should we change the end of the sentence to "unless they are acts of vandalism, trolling, or friend requests"? Jdtendo(T|C) 13:13, January 16, 2025 (EST)

No. This is about letting users to decide whether to remove friend requests from their talk page if they do not want that solicitation. "you cannot remove conversations or comments, unless they are acts of vandalism or trolling" would be more along the lines of, "You are not allowed to remove any comments irrelevant to wiki-related matters, such as warnings or reminders. The most leeway for removing comments from talk pages comes from vandalism, trolling, or harassment. Users are allowed to remove friend requests from their own talk page as well." Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:43, January 16, 2025 (EST)
@Super Mario RPG receiving a friend request does not mean you have to engage with it or accept, does it? So I am not really sure it constitutes as solicitation. Is the idea of leaving a friend request there at all the source of discomfort, even if they can ignore it? Or is it the principal that a user should have some say as to what is on their own talk page as their user page? I worry allowing users to remove their comments from their talk pages (especially from the perspective of what Shadow2 is suggesting) would open a can of worms, enabling more disputes between users. - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:13, January 16, 2025 (EST)
It's the principal of a user deciding whether they want it on their talk page or not. It would be silly if disputes occur over someone removing friendship requests. Super Mario RPG (talk) 21:20, January 16, 2025 (EST)
No, we should change it to "acts of vandalism, trolling, or unimportant matters unrelated to editing on the wiki." Shadow2 (talk) 18:28, January 16, 2025 (EST)
I believe users should have some fun here and there. The wiki isn't just a super serious website! Plus, it gives us all good laughs and memories to look back on. link:User:Sparks Sparks (talk) link:User:Sparks 20:32, January 16, 2025 (EST)
@Shadow2 What are some specific examples? Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:35, January 16, 2025 (EST)
Examples of what? Shadow2 (talk) 20:44, January 16, 2025 (EST)
Of what other "unimportant matters" you'd like for users to be allowed to remove from their own talk page. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:47, January 16, 2025 (EST)
Unfortunately it might be in bad faith to say "Look at this other user's page, this is considered unimportant and if it were on MY page, I would want it deleted." But like, when I first started on Wikipedia a friend of mine left a message on my talk page that said "Sup noob". I eventually fell out of favour with this friend and didn't really want to have anything to do with him anymore, so I removed it. It wasn't an important message, it didn't relate to any activity on the wiki, it was just a silly, pointless message. I liked it at first so I kept it, then I decided I didn't want it there anymore so I removed it. There's a lot of other very silly, jokey text I've seen on talk pages that I'm sure most users are happy to keep, but if they don't want to keep it then they should have the option of removing it. Shadow2 (talk) 23:00, January 16, 2025 (EST)

@Technetium That's true, no one does, but me and some others still would prefer a precedent to be set. This proposal began because someone blanked a friend request from own talk page recently, so this may occur every once in a while. The reason that one was allowed to be removed (by @Mario) is because it was a single comment from long ago that had no constructive merit when applied to this year and wasn't that important to keep when the user decided to remove it. This proposal would allow it in all cases. Removing such messages from one's own talk page is the equivalent of declining friend requests on social platforms. It stops the message from lingering and saves having to do a talk page disclaimer that friend requests will be ignored, since some people may choose to accept certain friend requests but not others. This opens room for choices. Super Mario RPG (talk) 16:21, January 16, 2025 (EST)

@Mario So if this proposal fails, would there be some clarification in rules behind the justification of such content being removed? Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:35, January 16, 2025 (EST)

Toadlose.gif Maybe? I don't know. This proposal was kind of unexpected for me to be honest. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:38, January 16, 2025 (EST)
I do believe that the intentions of this proposal are good, but the scope is too narrow. It should be about granting users the freedom to remove unimportant fluff (Friend requests included) from their talk page if they so choose. Discussions about editing and building the wiki, as well as disciplinary discussions and warnings, do not fall under "unimportant fluff". Shadow2 (talk) 20:47, January 16, 2025 (EST)
@Shadow2 have you considered that the users who receive images and jokes on their talk pages like having them there? The users who send jokes and images to certain receivers view them as good friends - these are friendly acts of comradery, and they are harmless within the communal craft of wiki editing. Are you familiar with anyone who would actually like to have the ability to remove "fluffy" comments from their talk pages? - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:18, January 16, 2025 (EST)
Some narrow-scope proposals have set precedents. Super Mario RPG (talk) 21:20, January 16, 2025 (EST)
(edit conflict) I would also add that they help build a wiki by fostering trust and friendship (which is magic) and helping morale around here, but I do think Shadow2 is arguing that if they receive such content, they should see fit to remove it. However, the hypothetical being construed here involves a stranger sending the content (which probably has happened like years ago) and I dispute that the scenario isn't supported in practice, so I don't think it's a strong basis for the argument. In the rare cases that do happen (such as, well, exchanges years ago), they're resolved by a simple reply and the content doesn't really get removed or altered unless it's particularly disruptive, which has happened. If it's applicable, I do think a rule change to at least allow users to set those particular boundaries in their talk pages can help but I don't see how that's strictly disallowed in the first place like the proposal is implying. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:38, January 16, 2025 (EST)
"have you considered that the users who receive images and jokes on their talk pages like having them there?" Yes? Obviously? What does that have to do with what I'm saying. Why does everybody keep turning this whole proposal into "GET RID OF EVERYTHING!!" when it's not at all like that. If the users want the images and jokes on their talk page, they can keep them. If they don't want them, then there's nothing they can do because the rules prohibit removal needlessly. Shadow2 (talk) 22:49, January 16, 2025 (EST)
I think you misunderstand my point - why should we support a rule that does not actually solve any problems had by anyone in the community? - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:03, January 16, 2025 (EST)
That's an unfair assumption. It would be a problem for me if someone left something on my page, and there's probably plenty of others who would like to remove something. Conversely, what is there to gain from forcing users to keep non-important information on their talk page? Shadow2 (talk) 02:11, January 17, 2025 (EST)
I would appreciate it if you elaborated on what about my inquiry was an unfair assumption. I am generally not someone who supports the implementation of rules without cause. If there were examples of users receiving unsolicited "fluff" on the site that do not like it, or if you yourself were the receiver of such material, that would be one thing. But I do not believe either thing has happened. So what would be the point in supporting a rule like that? What are the potential consequences of rolling something like that? Facilitating edit wars on user talkpages? Making participants in a communal craft feel unwelcomed? Making users hesitant to express acts of friendship with another? The history of an article-impacting idea being lost because it emerged between two users on one of their talkpages? In my experience the users who have received light messages and images from others have established a bond elsewhere, such as on Mario Boards or the Super Mario Wiki Discord. I am not familiar of this being done between acquaintances or strangers, or people who dislike it regardless. If you had proof of that or any comparable harm, I would be more receptive to your perspective. - Nintendo101 (talk) 12:13, January 17, 2025 (EST)
Feels like I'm just shouting at a wall here, and all of my concerns are being rebuffed as "not a big deal", so I guess I'll just give up. But going forward, having learned that once someone puts something on my talk page it's stuck there for eternity, no matter what it is, makes me incredibly uncomfortable. Shadow2 (talk) 18:48, January 17, 2025 (EST)

This proposal says: ‘You may get your edit reverted for being nice, but because swearing is not being nice, you can swear the şħįț out’ MHA Super Mushroom:) at 07:55, January 17, 2025 (EST)

Merge the Tortes

Three birds with one stone with this one! This proposal concerns the following articles:

The argument is fairly simple; the Chef and Apprentice Tortes are just a duo never seen separate from one another, like the Jellyfish Sisters, or Cork and Cask--and given they are the only Tortes we see in the game, it seems only fair to merge that article as well. This is only particularly unique in the amount of articles there are; 3 of them, for this one concept? The Torte article focuses mostly on their in-battle role, while the Chef Torte and Apprentice articles try to explain their duo role in two distinct articles.

In addition, if we merge Apprentice (Torte), either to Torte or to Chef Torte, we should probably move Apprentice (Snifit) over to Apprentice, and give it the {{about}} template.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: February 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Merge all 3 to Torte (It's burnt...)

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Primary option. It's probably the simplest option overall, if you ask us, and it fits with how we handle the various duos of Superstar Saga.
  2. LinkTheLefty (talk) Unusually, these guys don't even have unique battle labels.
  3. Sparks (talk) Merge!
  4. Blinker (talk) Per proposal. (By the way, I'm also rethinking my position on the Iron Cleft situation...)
  5. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.

Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.

Merge Chef Torte & Apprentice, keep them split from Torte (It's just a little crispy.)

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary option; if we really must keep Torte split from the duo we see in-game, that's fine, but we can't see any particular reason to keep the duo split up.
  2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Also if I recall correctly, that inconsistent-in-English accent difference is not present in Japanese, where their speech patterns are mostly the same. I'm not sure about merging them to the species since they at least have unique names from the species, unlike say, Birdo.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Doc in the comments. This would also be consistent with last year's proposal for Iron Clefts/the Iron Adonis Twins.
  4. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all. If all three'd be merged, I'd rather the title be "Chef Torte and Apprentice" anyway, because iirc they're the only Tortes in the game.
  5. Paper Plumm (talk) Per all.
  6. Nintendo101 (talk) I think this makes more sense, from the comments below.
  7. Technetium (talk) Per all.

Do nothing (It's gourmet!)

Comments (It's... Alive???)

This can easily be four birds with one stone, since "Apprentice (Snifit)" can become the default article (the identifier's a little dated anyway) and the paltry disambig can be turned into an {{about}}. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:08, January 19, 2025 (EST)

Good observation, actually! Went and added this. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 22:15, January 19, 2025 (EST)

@Doc: On that note, because of once and only once, that info is awkwardly divided across two out of three articles at present, even though it pertains to all three. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:25, January 22, 2025 (EST)

I see the "species" article as being mostly about how they battle, as well as the best place to note the various unused setups containing differing amounts of them, while a singular character duo article would cover their role in the story and general characterization. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 09:15, January 22, 2025 (EST)

By the way, wouldn't option 1 go against MarioWiki:Minor NPCs? --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 10:27, January 27, 2025 (EST)

Not any more than Cork and Cask does, I'd say. The main difference here is that the game already has a good name that can apply to both. Speaking of which, @Camwoodstock, would the resulting article be treated as a character or species article? The former would make more sense, in my view, but just to make sure. Blinker (talk) 10:57, January 27, 2025 (EST)
We were imagining the former, akin to the many duos of Superstar Saga, yes. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 11:51, January 27, 2025 (EST)
Come to think about it, it's also a little odd how Booster's main trio of Snifsters are covered on what is otherwise treated as a species article. That's a somewhat similar situation, isn't it? Blinker (talk) 10:29, January 28, 2025 (EST)

Rename Trivia section to "Notes" and allow broader coverage in their contents

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on February 2, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

Trivia sections are a contentious part of the wiki. Lengthy trivia sections with wrong/stupid/pointless content were an issue in the early years of the site and while there’s been a successful effort to clean them up, they’ve retained a stigma as a dumping ground for low-effort writing. As part of it, there’s been a drive to gently discourage such sections and instead steer people toward “incorporating” trivia content in other parts of the article. It’s not a bad notiom, but I do think it’s had some unhappy results (more on that later) even if it would be absurd to suggest it is an equivalent problem

Somewhat counter to common wisdom, I think the problem with Trivia sections is that not that they’re not narrow and curated enough, but rather than they’re not broad enough.

What I’ve noticed is that many wikis out there don’t have Trivia sections. They however, have Notes section. So say, the Transformers Wiki, might have a Notes section on their comic pages and besides the obvious Trivia fodder like “This is the only issue of the Marvel comic Optimus Prime doesn’t appear in”, they also list other information about the production or substance of the subject. Things like

  • Cultural references (in case where they’re not prevalent enough to sustain a whole section
  • Stylistic elements (characters being drawn differently or an episode having a different animation style)
  • Mentioning things that don't fit neatly in List of appearances (Stuff like "In a cereal commercial, Mario mentions having a pet chicken)
  • Narrative elements (a character behaving differently for a single installment or having some speech quirk they only have in that specific installment. Pointing out that a comic issue was the introduction of some plot element that would become prominent in further installments of the franchise, etc etc. That kind of thing)


If you need a clearer idea, https://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Transformers_(issue)#Notes is an example of what Notes sections are used for. It's not a perfect comparison because TFWiki is a different wiki that does things differently, and some of the thing they put in their notes we would put in more specialized sections like Appearances, Personality, Development etc on here. Still, I think it gives an idea of where I'm going at. There are noteworthy things that can’t be smoothly inserted into plot and content descriptions. I think covering such content is an area the wiki is currently weak in. I also feel it would lead to better flow.

A few years ago, I tested the waters and put Notes sections on a bunch of a pages I created. Most editors didn’t get what I was going for and either renamed them to Trivia or tried to incorporate them somewhere in the rest of the article. I’ll bring up La nuit des vivants-morts as an example: it’s a skit from the funny French Donkey Kong variety show, and since that show loves its hack comedy, there’s a running gag where the zombie characters draw out the “aaaaaaa”s in their speech. It's a noteworthy element of the skit’s humour, but it’s not relevant to the “plot” of it. I made a notes section to describe it, but another editor removed the section and instead stuck the bit at the end of the lead, which just looks awkward as hell: it’s worth a mention, but is not something so vital and unique that it warrants being on there.

So yeah, I propose to blanket rename all Trivia sections to “Notes” and tolerate a wider variety of content on them. Another potential benefit I see is that it could potentially reduce the amount of stereotypical bad Trivia content: it just seems to me that in some people, the word “Trivia” activates the monke brain of us that wants to just Say Stuff no matter how overspecific and uninteresting, where “Notes” is more boring and stuffy and might not encourage such urges.

Proposer: Glowsquid (talk)
Deadline: February 9, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support (change trivia to notes)

  1. Glowsquid (talk) I think this "Glowsquid" guy has the right idea!
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) I think this is a good idea that will give us a healthier relationship with these sections.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) A thousand times yes! A trivia rework has been long overdue, and we think a shift in scope is just what we need to keep the article's flow intact, while providing a proper space for information that doesn't fit snugly into other parts of the articles.
  4. Sparks (talk) Definitely the right idea!
  5. Mario (talk) I do like to see a solid guidelines for what should entail in these notes sections. I do think they're great places for information that isn't handled in existing spots in our articles. I'd like to see more examples being done, but I can try to help here. For recurring characters, section such a section can deal with trivia found in promotional events or merchandise, such as a hypothetical commercial that reveals Mario being a cockatiel owner. The Lily Franky stuff that I'm not going to go into detail, for instance, describes a shocking depiction Mario and friends (reenacted with plushies it seems) that cannot be covered in Mario's history page due to not being a game installment nor can it be in his personality section due to it clearly being off-color and one-note (not even a bullet point; this sort of thing is so minor it's so much better off as, well, a trivia point. For smaller articles like the La nuit des vivants-morts, this is definitely where such a section should be useful without taking undue prominence in the lead summary of the page. I'm hoping this doesn't lead to these just being souped up trivia sections like in some wikias (god forbid we have a bullet point that's like "Dark Samus is the only character in Smash Bros who is an evil echo of an existing character who has a pink alt and floats during an idle animation.") but we should at least try this first.
  6. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all, especially Mario. Note: SolemnStormcloud is the first user in this proposal to use the phrase "Per all" as their reasoning.
  7. Winstein (talk) Looks like a good idea, and I am for it.
  8. Nintendo101 (talk) I still worry about drive-by edits - there are legitimate pieces of information that work better within the body paragrpahs. But this seems like an improvement and more critically well-defined.
  9. Tails777 (talk) I personally have always seen the Trivia section as a "fun facts" kind of section where the information there doesn't fit into any other sections. And I feel this could also help prevent drawing out sections with random details that just end up starting their own paragraphs, especially opening sections. I'm willing to give this idea a solid shot.
  10. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per everyone. Never liked the "trivia" title.
  11. EvieMaybe (talk) this is the kind of forward-thinking, wide-reaching proposals i like to see. per all!
  12. LinkTheLefty (talk) As long as it doesn't become a dumping ground of a barely-coherent string of consciousness like some fandom wikis treat their trivia sections, I like this idea. And might I say, it's good to see a familiar purple-name glowing again.
  13. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Nice to see a proposal that singlehandedly fixes my two biggest gripes with the Trivia section. This would keep users from feeling obligated to move every point from there to other places where they don't belong, and the new name stops readers from dismissing the points that remain as minutia.
  14. Pseudo (talk) Rehabilitating trivia sections genuinely sounds like a great idea, since there's often information that doesn't cleanly fit into any section. I'm all for this!
  15. Ray Trace (talk) I've made a Marioboards topic about this all the way back if you want my choice thoughts on this.
  16. TheFlameChomp (talk) I agree that Trivia needs reworking, particularly the part about encouraging that information be incorporated into parts of articles where it doesn't properly fit, and I think this proposal offers a good solution.

Oppose (leave Trivia as it currently is)

Comments

A concern of mine is that in several places on this wiki — particularly the Mario Kart (series) article, since I used to edit those tables frequently back in the day — the "notes" header is used for footnotes put on a table. I'm a little concerned about the shared terminology there. Ahemtoday (talk) 15:28, January 26, 2025 (EST)

Renaming those sections "footnotes" should solve that. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:51, January 26, 2025 (EST)
I'm also concerned about it. Why rename it "notes" when pretty much all game wikis have a trivia section? What strikes me as odd- as OP has also pointed out- is that the Mario Wiki seems to have a negative bias towards the word "trivia" and the very use of the section (lots of characters who would have a lot of trivia points because of their particular characteristics that distinguish them from others have the section practically unused. I am also an Inkipedia user, and while I do feel that sometimes trivia can be a bit too crowded, at least the section is used for the purpose I (and everyone else in the wiki) think is right. In my opinion, calling trivia "notes" and notes "footnotes" is confusing since the sections have been called "trivia" and "notes" in this wiki since more than a decade. The only thing we should do is to avoid associating the word "trivia" with a negative connotation, especially since the phenomenon of overly crowded trivia sections is way long gone.--Wallowigi (talk) 09:25, January 31, 2025 (EST)

@Mario: "that cannot be covered in Mario's history page due to not being a game installment" - huh? Plenty of non-game content is covered in history sections, from cartoons to movies to manga. Why should this be an exception? Is it for being obscure? If so, why should that matter? I disagree with the idea that we should be deeming appearances "major" or "minor" and giving the "minor" information less prominence, that's just asking for subjectivity and bias to come into play. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:39, January 26, 2025 (EST)

What I mean is that the Lily Franky thing isn't a game, movie, or a cartoon. It's supplementary promotional material, a virtual magazine akin to Nintendo Power. We don't really cover it in Mario's history page due to information from a magazine simply not being appropriate for history that focuses on narrative works (we don't have merchandise in the history section); the same goes for, say, a guidebook 4-koma where Luigi "size" shames Mario. I provided additional context for my argument using the "pet cockatiel from a commercial" sort of example, which wouldn't really fit anywhere in Mario's page except in a trivia section. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:57, January 26, 2025 (EST)
It is a narrative work though, crude as that narrative may be, and it's not tied to a particular game like a guidebook would be (so we can't just cover it in another game's section). If it can have its own page on the wiki, I don't see why it can't get a section in a history page. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:37, January 27, 2025 (EST)
Agreed with Hewer that Lily Franky giving Mario an "off-color" depiction and being "too obscure to be noted" are not proper reasons to omit coverage on Mario's article. Those broadcasts have some narrative qualities to them and are part of the character's history in media licensed by Nintendo, so I'd rather the wiki abstain from relegating those into a Trivia Notes section. Besides, there's some precedent of covering things related to neither gameplay nor story as part of a character's history: the "History of Wario" page runs over a host of appearances of Wario in promotional web content, which were explicitly brought up (and unchallenged) at the parent article's feature nomination. Make of that what you will. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:54, January 28, 2025 (EST)

I wouldn't oppose broader coverage of trivia (look at Shedinja's dedicated trivia section, which is already very long), but I am a bit wary of changing the title to "notes" as the name "trivia" indicates fun, unimportant facts that wouldn't fit into the page proper, while "notes" feel more like formal stuff that could be added into pages proper.

I would also be fine adding a secondary "notes" or "development" (games)/"behind the scenes" (films) section to pages, on top of keeping the Trivia section. This could be added separately, or in the Trivia section, like the origin/name origin in the Pokémon pages in Bulbapedia. Altendo 20:40, January 26, 2025 (EST)

Lots of games already have "development" sections. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:37, January 27, 2025 (EST)

All my joking aside, I remember when Cackletta's article was a Spotlight focus in Issue 203 of The 'Shroom for having an overly long trivia section. A trivia point on the final battle with Cackletta's soul bearing similarities to the final boss from AlphaDream's first game, Koto Battle: Tengai no Moribito, was integrated into the boss section proper, but it feels very inelegant to suddenly start describing a boss from a different, non-Super Mario game in the middle of the article. Is it fine to move that point back once this proposal passes? — Light-blue Yoshi from Mario Kart Tour SolemnStormcloud (talk) 12:08, January 28, 2025 (EST)

Oh yeah. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm pushing for. --Glowsquid (talk) 18:54, January 28, 2025 (EST)

How about game-specific details that don't go into prose well? Like the fact that in Paper Mario, Goomba (and Spiked Goomba?) is the only enemy with a specific "electrocuted" sprite? Would that call for a different "notes" subsection under the Paper Mario section? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:35, January 30, 2025 (EST)

Merge the Ancient Beanbean Civilizations to List of implied species (and Hooroglyphs info to that)

Another multiple-way merge! This is about the following articles:

Simply put, these are all ancient civilizations that we don't encounter in-game, since. Well. They're long-gone ancient civilizations that are only ever mentioned alongside occasional things that originate from them, most notably the statue Hoohooros, but also Hooroglyphs and Beanstones. While we can understand keeping Hoohooros and Beanstones split--the former is a full boss encounter, the latter is a key item involved in a sidequest--we're less sure about Hooroglyphs in particular. Merges for the civilizations have been called for since around late 2023, and we think the Hooroglyphs should be merged as their split mostly comes from the decision to make a page for them back in March 2007, actually predating the Hoohoo civilization article. We've provided an option for keeping Hooroglyphs split, though we imagine it'd be better to merge this with the Hoohoo civilization information.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: February 13, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Merge all (merge Hoohoo/Soybean Civilizations to List, merge Hooroglyphs to the Hoohoo Civilization section)

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per ourselves; these civilizations don't have as much plot relevance nor lore behind them as something like, say, Squirpina XIV or the Flora Kingdom royalty, at most serving as the origin for Hoohooros.

Merge civilizations, leave Hooroglyphs alone

  1. LinkTheLefty (talk) The glyphs are actually seen, though.
  2. Jdtendo (talk) Per LinkTheLefty.

Merge Hooroglyphs to Hoohoo civilization, leave civilizations alone

Merge none (do nothing)

Comments (Indus River Valley civilization joke here)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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