MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''


==New features==
==New features==
=== Families ===
''None at the moment.''
{{early notice|December 13}}
It's not the first time I ask this, and certainly not the last (unless you approve it), but since there are articles for the families of [[Mario and Luigi's family|Mario Mario and Luigi Mario's]] and [[Kong#Kong Family|Donkey Kong's]], there should be articles for the major characters' families, like [[Bowser|King Bowser Koopa]]'s and [[Princess Peach|Princess Peach Toadstool]]'s. And probably [[Toad]]'s, but I don't really think that'd work. If there were, the wiki'd be kinda more organised. And if there won’t be any articles, a least let there be categories! Or templates, like [[Template:Mario and Luigi's family]].
 
'''Proposer''':[[User:Weegie baby|Weegie baby]] ([[User talk:Weegie baby|talk)]]<br>
'''Deadline''': December 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Create articles====
#{{User|Weegie baby}} I made this proposal, so I'm voting on articles. Peace ✌️. ''vanishes''
 
====Create categories====
#{{User|Hewer}} I guess I don't see the harm in this, since categories often serve to group together subjects that have some trait in common despite not being related conceptually, and redirects can be put in categories to account for the implied ones.
 
====Create templates====
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} There's a lot more to it for Mario and Donkey Kong's families, but we hardly know anything of Peach's family and as far as Bowser is concerned he has one son and that's about it.
#{{User|Altendo}} Bowser only has one confirmed son; the other "children" might not even be his son.
#{{User|Hewer}} We don't have pages on Mario and DK's families because they're major characters' families, we have pages on them because they're notable and there's stuff that can be written about them. These other characters' families barely exist. (Also worth noting the Kong Family isn't even its own page, it's a section of a page.)
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Axii}} Mario and Luigi's family is large enough to have a separate page. Donkey Kong's family doesn't even have a separate page.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all; in addition, we feel like the DK one in particular would likely be rendered largely redundant to the already-extant [[Kong]] article.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
 
====Comments====
Since we don't prioritize either conflicting source, a Bowser's family article presumably includes the [[Koopaling]]s as "formerly Bowser's children" and brings in data from [[Koopa Kid#Relationships]]. But now I'm questioning if the extant section on [[Bowser#Relationships]] can serve this need. A Peach's family article is presumably a no go because of a sheer dearth of data. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 10:39, December 6, 2024 (EST)
 
The reason why we have an article for the Mario Bros' family and a subsection for the Kong families on the Kong article is because a lot of members for either family have been introduced somewhere in the franchise. Admittedly, we already know of a couple of Bowser's family members: the Koopalings (former children), Bowser Jr (current only child), Kamek (caretaker, advisor and father figure), [[Bowser's mother]], and then some implied/mentioned ones. But I don't think four subjects and then some that appear only on a list of implied characters would justify an article on the matter. As for Peach, we only know of the [[Mushroom King]], [[Gramma Toadstool]], and maybe [[Toadsworth]] and [[Granny]]; and as for Toad, there's only [[Gramps]], and the implied character Moldy (though it's sometimes been stated that [[Toadette]] is Toad's sister). I'm pretty sure I'm still missing some things, but I doubt it would be as much. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:46, December 6, 2024 (EST)
 
:In the Super Show, Toad also has 3 cousins. [[Toad's cousin]], [[Mushroom Marauder and Jake the Crusher Fungus]]. And don’t forget [[List of implied characters#Toad's wife|his wife]]! And I didn’t know about the other ones you mentioned, so thanks. See? That just comes to show we need family articles! As for Bowser, [[Boom Boom]] is the long lost [[Koopalings|Koopaling]] ([[Koopalings#Members|see this]] in the bottom of the section), which means his Bowser's child. Bowser also has: a [[List of implied characters#Bowser's father|dad]], [[List of implied characters#Poopa La Koopa|a grandfather]], [[List of implied characters#King Koopa's great-great grandkoop|a great-great-grandfather]], a grandmother (brought up by [[Morton]] in [[TAoSMB3]]), a [[magikoopa]] who is his third cousin twice removed, a [[Bowser's Brother|brother]] and a sister. Now, time for Peach's family: [[List of implied characters#Princess Toadstool's mother|Mushroom Queen (her mother)]]; [[Obā-chan|Obā-chan (a grandmother)]]; [[Princess Daisy|Daisy (a cousin)]]; [[Ojīsan and Obāsan|Ojīsan and Obāsan (other parents)]]; [[Pichi-hime|Pichi-hime (descendant)]]. And just so you know, I mentioned Bowser, Peach and Toad, but there could be other characters' family articles, like… other characters… Peace ✌️. ''disppears'' [[User:Weegie baby|Weegie baby]] ([[User talk:Weegie baby|talk]]) 14:45, December 6, 2024 (EST)
 
By the way, you are allowed to vote in your own proposal. Since this one has more than two options, you can even vote for multiple of them. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:59, December 7, 2024 (EST)


==Removals==
==Removals==
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==Changes==
==Changes==
===A reconsidering of "derived names"===
===Merge moves exclusive to forms with their respective forms, leaving main article links if they are part of another article. Also replace the Fly article with a list.===
This proposal acts as a counter to the proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/66#Repeal_the_.22derived_names.22_having_priority_over_official_names_in_other_languages|Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages]]. In short, to a casual reader like myself, subjects being named [[Disaster Neko]], [[Comet Tico]], [[Wonder Haiden]], and [[Kodeka Kakibō]] are extremely unhelpful when English names for them seem trivial. Many subjects in the Mario franchise use a very consistent naming scheme: [A descriptor for this specific subject, usually an adjective] [very standardized name]. If something is officially called Wonder Packun, and is a Packun(or Piranha Plant) which have variants consistently named "X Packun" in Japanese and "X Piranha Plant" in English, then it feels pedantic to not call it a Wonder Piranha Plant.
Mario’s many, many forms have granted him oh so many forms. These forms grant him many new moves, like [[Cape Mario|swinging a cape]], [[Flying Squirrel Mario|jumping in the air]], or even a slew of [[Link|Link’s moves]]! Now, how many of these have articles? (Excluding [[Tail whip]])


The proposed change here would be to allow derived names to take precedent over internal and foreign names when those derived names are built upon a strong enough foundation, on a case-by-case basis. Derivations should be based on actual official English localizations or already use English words to begin with. If there isn't precedent for each aspect of the name, then it should remain in its source language.
If you guessed zero, +/- Tail whip, you’re right. This makes sense: If I go to an article on a form, then I want to see all of that form’s nuances. What good is it to have some parts of the benefits conferred by a power-up on a separate page? Imagine if [[Builder Mario]] had an article dedicated to swinging its hammer, a core portion of the abilities Builder Mario grants. Imagine if [[Mole Yoshi]] had an entire article dedicated to its ability to dig, despite that being the sole move it can do with a button press and digging being its entire point of existing. Imagine if operating the [[Super Pickax]] had an entire article separate from the Super Pickax, even though the player doesn’t even have the choice to hold a Super Pickax without using it. (Yes, the act of using a Super Pickax has a name!)
Examples:
* [[Fire Gabon]]: "Fire X" is a well established format, see [[Fire Bro]] (Faia Burosu) and [[Fire Piranha Plant]] (Faia Pakkun). "X Spike" is also well established, see [[Paper Spike]] (Pēpā Gabon) and [[Stone Spike]] (Rokku Gabon). Therefore, Faia Gabon would be interpreted as Fire Spike.  
* [[Comet Tico]]: "Comet" is already an English term used frequently in ''Super Mario Galaxy'', and [[Prankster Comet]]s are directly connected to the Comet Tico. "X Luma" is a very consistent formatting of names in SMG, see [[Hungry Luma]] (TicoFat internally) and [[Co-Star Luma]] (SupportTico intermally). TicoComet can therefore be interpreted as Comet Luma.
* [[Yarikuri Obake]]: "Yarikuri" is officially localized as [[Pirate Goom]], however it is never given any descriptors in English and "Obake" does not have a standardized localization, especially not one for ''Wario Land 3''. This name would remain in Japanese.
* [[Baboom|Hanabihei]] (assuming its official English name was never revealed): "Hanabihei" is derived from "Bombhei", but is a portmanteau and not a trivial descriptive name. It would remain as-is.


The positives of this proposal if it were to pass would be that related subjects would be intuitive as to how they relate. Just by reading the names, you would be able to tell that [[Hoppycat]], [[Wonder Hoppin|Wonder Hoppycat]], and [[Deka Hoppin|Big Hoppycat]] are related, and what that relationship is.
But we’re already doing this, just under the veneer of putting it under existing articles. These articles, for example:


Edit: Several users have expressed the sentiment that our current names are already somewhat derivative. Fire Gabon is not the name of the subject in Japanese, but rather ''Faia Gabon''. Similarly, [[Informant Mūcho]] is derived from the filename <code>B4_Informant_MUC</code>. Thusly, a new option is provided to propose to stop this form of derived names as well. Names like Comet Tico would be moved to "TicoComet", and Informant Mūcho moved to "Informant_MUC" or "Informant".
*[[Shell dash]] ([[Shell Mario]])
*[[Dive]] (Claw dives of [[Cat Mario]])
*[[Drill Spin]] ([[Propeller Mario]])


Edit 2: LinkTheLefty has very reasonably pointed out that the wiki has [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects_with_Japanese_names|existing, consistent guidelines]] on how to write Japanese names with English loanwords, meaning Fire Gabon should not be written as ''Faia Gabon''. I have altered the second option in accordance. If it passes, Japanese names will not have their spellings changed, but names derived from development data will still be made more direct. In hindsight, it probably wasn't a good idea, articles called [[Superball Mario (level)|Sūpābо̄rū Mario]] or [[Super Mario Kart: Doki Doki Race|Sūpā Mario Kāto Doki Doki Rēsu]] would probably be rather obtrusive.
I think this is a flawed line of thinking. For a much as shell dashing and Drill Spinning are moves that can be used by specific forms, they are also benefits conferred by specific forms and power-ups. We should be focusing efforts to improve coverage for such moves on the page for the power-up, as someone who wants to learn everything Shell Mario can do probably shouldn’t have to also check shell dash. Shell Mario should say that shell dashing enemies doesn’t start a point chain. Shell Mario should say if how many hits it takes to defeat a boss with the shell dash. Shell Mario should mention the unique movement opportunities/restrictions of the shell dash compared to base Mario. There shouldn’t be two different articles going into technical detail on a single topic if we can help it, not least because of the potential of a correction to one article not being applied to the other. And if we can only have one super detailed article, then it ought to be the form.


'''Proposer''': {{User|PopitTart}}<br>
Imagine if we extended the current situation to other named moves of forms? Would [[Mega Yoshi]] be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Tail Swipe, on the basis of it having the technical detail of stalling Yoshi’s fall? Even though one needs to know how to Tail Swipe to beat all Mega Yoshi areas? Would [[Penguin Mario]] be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Belly Slide? Which is main unique thing about it, given Ice Balls are from [[Ice Mario]] and good swimming is from [[Frog Mario]]? If we gave the field form of [[Luiginoid Formation#Ball|Luiginary Ball]] a page, would it be.a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Ball Hammer? Again, something necessary to complete the ball's tutorial area?
'''Deadline''': December 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Allow fully derived names (Fire Spike, Informant Snifit)====
As such, this proposal aims to just move all the technical details of moves that can only be performed by power-up forms to the form’s page. The section remains, because it’s a part of the move’s conceptual history, using a <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> article link to move over to the form for the nitty gritty on how everything about that specific implementation works. For reference look at how [[Dash]] handles the [[Dash (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)]] ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dash&diff=4431004&oldid=4421941 Relevant Edit]) and the [[Spin Dash]] ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dash&diff=4435629&oldid=4431024 Relevant Edit]). Instead of restating the entire move but trying to be a little looser about the mechanics than the main article, it has a note saying “this exists and is a version of the thing this article is about”, and then sends the reader to the main article. It's a more efficient use of bits and our readers' time.
#{{User|PopitTart}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} Per proposal. Since I started browsing this wiki as a kid, I had always thought the use of foreign language names were nonsensical when it was obvious what they should be - especially in cases like those cited in the proposal. "Neko" just means literally "Cat" in Japanese. It is likewise reasonable, as stated, to amend enemy names to their English counterpart in cases like "Fire Gabon", etc. In the previous vote to repeal this, {{User|Koopa con Carne}} stated that you shouldn't ignore an official name to make up a "wacky" name instead. I don't believe this to be a good faith argument in this case. Nobody is making anything up. If Gabon in English is Spike, then there is absolutely no conjecture with regards to applying that moniker to Fire Gabon - nor is there conjecture with regards to what replacing Disaster Neko with Disaster Cat in an instance where the normal version of these entities is just called "Kitten" in English, a direct translation from the respective Japanese name.
#{{User|Ninelevendo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Turboo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Meta Knight}} It just makes more sense.
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Per all.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Cheat-master30}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|winstein}} I think this is a good idea, so I agree with it.
#{{User|Roserade}} I have been keeping with this proposal and reading the arguments of the opposition, and while I understand where they're founded, I remain fairly unconvinced by them. I believe that this proposal is pointing towards reputable translation as the source of these names, with names like "Fire Spike" being based upon a) well-established patterns in translation and b) clear visual indication of what the thing ''is''. To argue that translating directly like this is "making stuff up" feels to me like a bad-faith argument. I feel like we can reasonably deduce what a translation should be if we have the valid evidencing for it - which PopitTart indicates as the aim in this proposal. And if a localization eventually rolls around, and it's a different name than what we're using? We change it, which is already what we'd do in the case of a Japanese article name anyway. Updating information is not hard, if it becomes necessary. Ultimately, our aim as a fan wiki should be accessibility of its userbase, and straightforward translation work is one of the ways to make these articles more accessible. Also, I'm sure it's more of an aside than a fully-fledged argument, but "regret the next encyclopedia event" is a silly argument. It's not our responsibility to ensure that nobody in a formal publishing house opts to plagiarize the wiki again.
#{{User|MCD}} Per all, especially Roserade & FWD.
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} The Disaster Neko and Fire Gabon examples are the ones that are ALWAYS on my mind when I think of this. Per Fun with Despair and Roserade especially.
#{{User|Reese Rivers}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Though I'm somewhat hesitant because I do perceive the opposition's stated disadvantages of doing this (particularly those mentioned by Nintendo101), I'm inclined to support this especially because of the argument raised by Lady Sophie and Exiled.Serenity's comments — that the wiki already ''does'' do this sort of name-deriving with examples like Comet Tico, Dark Nokonoko, and Fire Gabon, none of which ''exactly'' match the form seen in the game files. If we're comfortable adopting slightly derived names—and they are derived names—in order to make the wiki more readable, which I personally am, then I see little reason not to translate well-established names like Tico, Nokonoko, and Gabon, which have already been localized to English time after time. Perhaps the enemy's name will not turn out to be "Fire Spike" when it reappears with an officially-localized name, but we can simply acknowledge that as a wiki when the time comes. Frankly, acknowledging partially derived names like these three with a notice template arguably provides greater clarity than what the wiki is currently doing, claiming that the enemy's datamined name is Dark Nokonoko, rather than NokonokoDark, the only official "English" name that actually exists.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per proposal and Pseudo.
#{{User|Exiled.Serenity}} Per my comments below, and Pseudo. This is my preferred option— I think it is only "making stuff up" in the strictest possible sense. A far cry from calling him "Sizzle-Spikey!" or whatever. I also appreciate the proposal's restraint in this regard, choosing to only allow this when there's so much evidence for a given name that we'd just as easily be giving an inaccurate impression by not using it.
#{{User|Dainn}} Per all. Wonder Haiden bothered me deeply when I first saw it.
#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} This website is not Nintendo, will never be Nintendo, and needs to stop pretending otherwise. MarioWiki is fan site managed by fans and directed at fans. It's not an official source for anything and it's inherently not unbiased, the closest it could ever come to that is if it was simply a collection of copied and pasted official text released by Nintendo, but it's not, the vast majority of the content here is original text written by fans that is only based on the official content that is presented to us. Why is it bad to call Fire Spike by that name term when everyone can agree that's what they are but it's not bad to describe anything using words that were never used by Nintendo at all? I'm not advocating for fan anarchy, but MarioWiki is meant to be an English website and it doesn't serve that purpose to use foreign words and terms that the people accessing it are not expected to be familiar with when there are obvious agreed-upon English alternatives.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.


====Stop derived development data names (Fire Gabon, Informant_MUC)====
This does not affect moves of non-powered up characters that are modified by the power-up. Flying Squirrel Mario’s high Spin Jumps stay on [[Spin Jump]], Frog Mario's and Penguin Mario’s swimming stay on [[Swim]], Tanooki Mario’s Tail Spin stays on [[Roll]], and so on. This is in addition to these modified versions of moves being written about on their form’s pages. (No, shell dash is not a modified dash. It's a new action that dashing happens to trigger, as indicated by the requirement of dashing and alternate method of crouching on a slope) This proposal does not affect projectiles whose existence is broader than their associated power-up, namely [[Fireball]], [[Ice Ball]], [[Hammer]], and [[Bubble]]. Builder Boxes are [[Crate]]s, so they fall into this bucket. (Superball would be included, but it was merged with [[Superball Mario]] years ago and is not included.) This also does not affect character/power-up hybrids. [[Yoshi]]'s [[Swallow]], [[Egg Throw]], et al, [[Baby DK]]'s [[DK Dash Attack]], [[Diddy Kong]]'s [[Diddy Attack]] and [[Barrel Jet]], and [[Rambi]]'s [[Super move|Supercharge]] and [[Charge (Donkey Kong Country series)|Charge]] are examples of these exclusions. This is because in some cases the character can use the move without being a power-up, usually because they are playable in a non-power-up capacity. While this isn’t true in every case, it makes sense to extend this grace to all character/power-up hybrids. [[SMB2 Mario]] is bizarre, but [[Crouching High Jump|charge jump]] is ultimately unaffected. It’s a move of the normal player characters in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' proper, and the article doesn’t have a ''Super Mario Maker 2'' section to cut down anyway. I’d advocate for adding more charge jump content to the SMB2 Mario article, but that’s not part of the proposal.
#{{User|MCD}} Not my first choice but per my comment below. What we have now is essentially a mish-mash of different sources of derivation, this is better than that at least.
#{{User|Sparks}} Agreed.
#{{User|PopitTart}} Second choice, Per MCD. If we can't do fully derived names, then we shouldn't do arbitrary partial ones.
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice, I'll take this over the first option.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per... Hewer, I guess? Voting mostly to the detriment of the first option.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Honestly, I'm not even sure this is my second choice or not — I'm willing to go a long way in the name of consistency.
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary choice. I'd rather lean one way or the other than have a messy in between. At least with this, it makes more sense than allowing the word "Fire" to be translated from "Fire Gabon" and not "Gabon".
#{{User|Pseudo}} Secondary choice per Tails777, and per the sentiment expressed in my vote for the option 1. The current situation is a bad middle ground. This might become my primary vote in the future, but I need to think about it more.
#{{User|Exiled.Serenity}} My second choice. It's at least consistent.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - This I can agree with, the guessing of word order for file names always bugged me. Granted, it'd look odd in the prose, but there are ways around it (for instance, "'''Informant_MUC''' is the internal designation of a Snifit in ''Paper Mario: Color Splash''. The Snifit is found...")
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} As counterproductive/problematic as the proposal itself is, i suppose this could be an alternative (even if this option might get counterproductive in certain areas too)
#{{User|TPG}} After careful consideration and reading the comments of this proposal, I think this is the most acceptable option. Ultimately it is not the wiki's responsibility to localise names on Nintendo's behalf, and even though it IS common sense to call it 'Fire Spike', or 'Wonder Hoppycat', no official source has used that name yet. Perhaps down the line this more strict position on deriving names will lead to a more acceptable naming guideline that allows us to state the obvious, but it isn't on us to make up names. I don't think this is the best way to deal with conjecture, but I'll leave that thought in the comments.


====Do nothing (Fire Gabon, Informant Mūcho)====
Perceptive readers probably realize that this policy would gut [[Fly]], an article entirely about a recurring skill of certain forms/capability of items. An article consisting entirely of <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> templates would be bad, right? Au contraire, for this is by design. Fly is trapped in a purgatory where it can’t actually say anything meaningful because all of the data for each of the forms, abilities, and items it’s trying to cover should be on the articles for those things. So it’s a listicle of every game you can fly in with cliff notes about how they work. I guess its a directory for all of the flying skills, but having it be a traditional article makes using Fly as a directory inefficient. At this point, we should embrace the list structure and use it for something lists are good for, comparisons between games. I have compiled a list version of Fly on a [[User:Salmancer/List of methods of flight|userpage]], based on the existing [[List of power-ups]]. It’s messy and incomplete but I think it’s better than the Fly article. Should this proposal pass, this list will replace the article. As the various contexts of Fly are not the same kind of action to begin with, the article will become {{Fake link|List of methods of flight}}. This broadens the scope to fit all of the components. (Note how "flight" is not a proper noun).
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - This remains speculative. They could just as easily call it ''Flame'' Spike ([[Flame Chomp]] exists, after all, having been renamed from Fire Chomp) or ''Fireball'' Spike. Also, see the Goombud and Clubba examples below.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per the previous proposal that got rid of these names. It's still conjecture no matter how much we pretend it's not, and I'd rather stick to what's official. In response to the argument that Japanese names confuse or are unhelpful to readers, I'd argue that using fan names over official ones is misleading readers, which is much worse. We're here to report what the facts are, not what we want them to be. Also, variant relationships don't always have to be obvious from the name (you'd never guess from the name alone that [[Bandit]] is a [[Shy Guy]] variant, for example).
#{{user|Koopa con Carne}} '''No. Making up a name for a thing that has an official name [[MarioWiki:Citations#Why sourcing? What needs it?|is not what the wiki is about]],''' and if you think the official name is less intuitive than the alternative, there's this nifty feature called "redirects" that doesn't tamper with official concepts. If you think that argument is in bad faith, then you misunderstood the mission of this site.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think Popitart created a solid proposal, and I understand why it has garnered support. However, I believe the burden on having these names revised to something more suitable and consistent with the English localization is on the publisher. Not us. One of the things that has made Super Mario Wiki stronger reference material than many other wikis is our naming policy. I view it as a concentrated effort to avoid {{wp|Circular reporting|citogenesis}}, {{wp|Descriptivist theory of names|descriptivism}}, and manufactured consensus, which is especially important considering Nintendo themselves clearly consult this site on occasion and sometimes incorporate [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/land2/index.html our interpretations of the text], including [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|incorrect interpretations]]. It is clear we are the primary reference for in-depth ''Super Mario'' information on the internet and for the general public, and likely will remain so for years to come. I would like us to remain reliable and neutral for them. Does "Comet Tico" look silly next to "Hungry Luma?" Yes, it does. Does it not mean "Comet Luma?" Yes. But I do not think that is something for us to solve, and I suspect most readers will intuitively understand this means the subject has not been given an English name yet. I don't think that is a big deal. I think a bigger deal would be to, say, see it named "Comet Luma" on the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' article and assume that is its name. In my view, that is not really true, but presenting it as such can lead to misinformation being spread. I understand and respect those who feel differently, but that is generally how I feel at this time.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} How about we '''''<u>not</u>''''' do this again and regret it when the next encyclopedia event happens? We've never been one of those sites that gets a dopamine rush over "canonizing" stuff. On the contrary, we have a responsibility to step back and give the translators breathing room to do their thing when they get their chance without fears of stifling their freedom and being compared to the fans all the time. Per all the opposition, past and current.
#{{User|Axii}} ^
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Doc and Nintendo101.
#{{User|Sparks}} While it is tempting to just replace the Japanese name with its English equivalent, we don't know for sure if that is what the English translation actually is (or will be). While Fire Spike and Wonder Hoppycat seem to be obvious names for the enemies, what if they're not their official names? We have concrete evidence right now; it's just not English, but having an official name in Japanese is better than making up an English one.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all; no comment needed, since you may already know where i stand.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I see no reason to change this that doesn't involve appealing to the fact that this is an English wiki.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We're gonna be honest here, neither of the other options really appeal to us. We understand the concerns with citogenesis that caused the previous proposal to fail, so we won't really go over that. But the "we should use derived names ''exactly as they are written in the source''" is... Well, to put it bluntly here, more than a little asinine. Where exactly are we drawing the line, here? The provided examples in the proposal keep the camelcase in [[Comet Tico|TicoComet]] and that [[Informant Mūcho|B4_Informant_MUC]] would be moved to Informant_MUC; who's calling what's the "unnecessary" parts we omit here? Do we just include them all? If it's the latter, be honest with yourself; would the wiki be better off if we had an article called [[Peach doll|cg_data-character-p0242_peach_doll]]? If it's the former, how do we plan to trim down a sentence on the [[Watering hole]] article like "They consistently spew water into a small basin, allowing [[Mario]] to swallow some and turn into [[Pump Mario|STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI]]."? We have so, so many questions, and unfortunately, next to no answers here. Above all else, we don't really feel comfortable going forward with a proposal that, as others have pointed out, has felt rather wishy-washy for something as drastic as a change to our article naming guidelines.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Well, just because something can be translated as something else, doesn't mean it has been by Nintendo. Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Both options are terrible, per opposition, but I'm gotta say this about internal names. Currently, what we use for page titles for subjects where game file data is the best we have are formatted from said file data - in other words, we already conjecturally derive page titles for those subjects from internal names even if it's just adding a space. That's why I think if we're going to keep that line with internal names, they should lose their status as official names and be considered conjectural instead if they are formatted. This would not affect cases like [[Marimba Block]] where said name appears as-is afaik.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Open to review the guidelines on how to use internal names that aren’t a single word, but in my opinion we really need more discussion over them rather than just having to choose between two options, to see how many impractical consequences we can have with the various choices. As far as subjects for which we just have the Japanese names are concerned, I think that in the long term simplicity and avoidance of arbitrary criteria in the guidelines is more helpful for the editors - even though it can be frustrating to see some obvious translations untranslated. In the worst case scenario of no valid English name being found, we end up using valid Japanese names written with criteria as similar as possible to those of the official romanization, that can pop up [[Mario Playing Cards#NAP-05 (Characters Picture Book)|every now and then]].
#{{User|Arend}} Kinda torn between this option and the first one; I'm picking this one for now since it's the lesser-voted one. Either option are more preferable to me over the second option in which we have to use the actual internal filenames instead of names derived from said filenames, which I feel would stand out really awkwardly among the actual confirmed names.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I was originally writing a vote for the second option, though after thinking about it, I have decided to land here for now. Unlike some of the opposition, I would be open to changing how we handle names like this, and I do believe that, from a reader’s perspective, a name like “Fire Spike” makes more sense than “Fire Gabon”. However, I also agree with some of the opposition’s concerns such as citogenesis, the fact that some translations could come across as subjective, and the fact that it should not be up to us to localize names on Nintendo’s behalf, leading me to choose against the first option. However, I realized while considering option 2 that directly naming articles from their file names would also be messy and difficult to search if readers were not aware of what a particular file name was associated with to begin with. As such, I am voting to keep the current names, though I would recommend keeping this issue open for future discussion as I am still not sure that how we handle the situation is the perfect method.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all.


====Comments====
[[Tail whip]] was created after I planned this proposal but before I proposed it. If this proposal passes, it gets merged into [[Raccoon Mario]] for 2D games and [[Tanooki Mario]] for 3D games. This policy devastates Tail Whip in the same way Fly is. Tail Whip can keep its categories as a redirect. While the move may be used by multiple forms, the most basic forms with the attack are more than capable of storing Tail whip's mechanics for the improved versions of [[White Raccoon Mario]] and [[White Tanooki Mario]] to refer to later. This matches how Penguin Mario defers to Ice Mario and Ice Ball. [[Tail]]s are also on Tail Whip, but Tail handles using Tail and has no need to be listed on another article. Even if we wanted a complete list of games with with tail attacks, Raccoon Mario already mentions Tail. (The situation is also similar to [[Cape]], which used to compile the yellow capes of [[Cape Mario]] and [[Superstar Mario]] into a listicle before this [[Talk:Cape#Clean up this article to include only information in the Super Smash Bros. series|proposal]] reduced it to only the Smash Bros. attack.)
@Doc von Schmeltwick: the decision to go with Fire Spike over Flame Spike or others is based on both its behavior as well as how the "fire" prefix is translated from Japanese; Faia Gabon is a Spike that attacks with fireballs, as opposed to being made of fire or such. This is in-line with the given examples, as well as [[Fire Nipper Plant]] and [[Fire Mario]], which all have the same "faia X" naming in Japanese. Flame Chomp however is named "Keronpa" in Japanese, and thus isn't suitable as a point of comparison. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 02:44, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:I have found better examples: ''Fire Heihō'' is known as [[Pyro Guy]] in English (not as "Fire Shy Guy") and ''Fire Mūcho'' is known as [[Scorchit]] (not as "Fire Snifit"). {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 07:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I don't see the point debating Fire Spike anyway when [[Fire Gabon#Internal names|the internal name]] specifically uses the word "Fire". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:02, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::But it does not specifically use the word "Spike". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:06, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::The specific point being addressed here is Doc's vote, which was questioning using "Fire". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:12, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::As Jdtendo demonstrated, the Japanese name being "Fire [enemy]" doesn't mean the English name will be "Fire [enemy]". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::There are indeed cases where "faia" is translated as something other than "fire", but these appear to be used for enemies which use fire in a way distinct from the classic fireball projectile. In combination with the Fire Gabon's behavior matching the subjects which ''are'' translated that way, I believe "fire" to be the best option. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::And that's just your subjective assessment. We have no idea if the official translators would agree, and for all we know, they could have completely different criteria to determine what gets called "Fire" and what doesn't. (For what it's worth, "Fire Spike"'s fireballs fly in a straight line through the air, so they are actually quite functionally different from those of Fire Mario or Fire Bro, which bounce along the ground, and Spike's other variants, Snow Spike and Stone Spike, do not follow any pre-established enemy variant naming patterns as far as I know.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I have not decided if I'd like to support this proposal yet but I feel like, as it is an English website, if the Mario Wiki shouldn't effectively create nicknames for subjects without official English names, it should not be arbitrarily applying names in other languages to those same subjects. The English name for the Fire variant of a Spike is not called Fire Gabon and I think it is erroneous to refer to it as such in English text. if citogenesis is an issue, then using foreign and internal names runs the exact same risk as using a conjectural name. Just look at [[Comet Tico|Lumacomète]] in the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 08:18, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Additionally, according to the Wiki's rules on Japanese, [[MarioWiki:Japanese|"words that originated in English should be written as the original English word for simplicity"]], which means technically we're already not accurately representing the subject's Japanese name. The Fire variant of a Spike is not called Fire Gabon in English, and it's not called Fire Gabon in Japanese. if the jump from Faia to Fire is allowed, then why not from Gabon to Spike? We're already isolating and translating Japanese words in a vaccuum.{{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 08:32, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I concur with this standpoint. I will keep supporting this proposal in its current state, but I would support changing all adjectives back to Japanese if it fails. It's really a case of all-or-nothing to me, currently it is quite half-baked. (It could be considered to add that as a separate option if more people feel this way.) {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 14:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Should I add this as a third option, then? It has only been 1 day, well within the editing timeframe. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I think the difference is that the word "fire" is a loanword or {{wp|Loanwords in Japanese|gairaigo}}, so it is not really being translated. "Gabon" is not. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:58, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:How is the wiki's usage of foreign names "arbitrary"? They are used when no official English name is known to exist. This wiki may be written in English, but it's about a primarily Japanese franchise and covers [[:Category:Japan-only games|subjects that never officially existed in English at all]], so it's no surprise that not everything has an English name to use. What ''would'' be arbitrary is deciding not to use the subject's only official name because we think we can make up a better one. Also, this proposal isn't suggesting to stop using foreign names entirely, so we would still be using non-English names in our English text regardless. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:48, December 5, 2024 (EST)
@Nintendo101 First, I want to acknowledge that you've put together a very articulate, well-considered case for your opposition. Though we disagree, I understand well your point of view, and I find your concerns over citogenesis in particular to be a very worthwhile consideration. There is one point in your position on which I would like to seek clarification, though. You say, "I think a bigger deal would be to, say, see it named "Comet Luma" on the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' article and assume that is its name." Would that not be adequately addressed by use of the conjectural name template, which includes an argument specifically for derived names? I am earnestly curious as to why the template, as a clear and difficult-to-miss disclaimer that the name is derived and not an official localization, does not adequately address this point in your view. [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 08:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Howdy! For starters, I do think a template header would be mitigating and I am glad it is incorporated into this proposal. That was good foresight. However, the systemic effectiveness of these templates is dependent on readers going to the articles for Fire Gabon or Comet Tico specifically, and I am not sure how often they would feel compelled to do that if these names "look" like official localizations. Someone visiting the site to read articles on the games themselves or levels may not feel compelled to check, and precisely because of their similarly to proper localizations, may just assume "Comet Luma" ''is'' its true localized name. Anecdotally, I feel like I have heard conjectural names justifiably adopted by our wiki for lack of better alternatives uncritically presented as ''the'' names off of the site and I think that is partially why. They look like properly localized English names, so why would one assume they are not? I have not seen that as often for subjects with Romanized Japanese titles, and I suspect that is because they also look the part. Maybe if there was some sort of in-text template similar to "conjectural" to embed directly into game or level articles that would help, but that also sounds a bit cumbersome. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 08:44, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::Thank you so much for your response! Knowing this is coming from a position of concerns that readers will pass over the disclaimer by not actually visiting the page in question and will instead assume these names are official at a glance certainly does clarify that point. I do think you have the right of it that it would be cumbersome to mitigate this concern with the tools available to us. My first thought is perhaps we could use the [[Template:Hover|tooltip text]] to address this by putting "derived name" in the tooltip text for these names on game pages and such, and if the proposal does pass, I think it would be worthwhile to consider using it. That said, as far as I know, you can't see that text on mobile, so I recognize this wouldn't be a perfect solution. [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 08:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Honestly, I'd rather not make a distinction between "conjectural" names and "derived" names at all. They're both names made up by the wiki in an attempt to be as straightforward as possible, the only difference being that "derived" names could be taking priority over official names, yet templates for "derived" names give the misleading impression that they are more official than "conjectural" names. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Or we can cut out the ten middlemen altogether and use much more efficient redirect system. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:11, December 5, 2024 (EST)
I feel like at a certain point, we can only do so much. We put templates on all the pages that are plain to see. If an Encyclopedia writer ignores it, how is that our fault? And like LadySophie17 said above, they used a French name for an English book - I don't see why using a name from another language, albeit official, eliminates the issue. It's their responsibility to appropriately localize names, not ours. And in this case, I think reader understandability comes first - after all, we are a site for the fans. Those writers shouldn't be looking at a wiki for research to begin with. If another Encyclopedia is written, I can only hope they learned from their mistakes with the original, and not use the wiki as a source. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:I am also aware I did that proposal to rename X-Ship to X-Naut ship, as the former felt too official of a name despite being marked as conjectural. This just feels like a different situation altogether for me, given that these conjectural English names for enemies aren't all fancy or anything, but very straight to the point. I agree with Hooded Pitohui's comment above that we could also mark these as being derived names on other pages they appear, not just the main articles on them. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::I understand your perspective, but part of the reason why we have maintained so many name-specific article templates in the first place was as a response to that encyclopedia and there has been a general reduction in conjectural names that was also in response to it. Besides, it is not just third-party editors I am thinking of — I am thinking of fans. Our general userbase. I do not want us to passively misinform them or imply names have some sort of community consensus when they do not. I know that is something I would have appreciated before I became more involved with editing the site, because I want to be informed and learn before anything else. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 10:13, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::You make good points. I'm not fully sure what to think myself honestly - as I said in my first edit summary for this today, those were simply my thoughts at the moment. I'll continue thinking about this as more comments are made and change my vote if my mind changes. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:17, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Let's not pretend that ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'' was an isolated case. It was only notable for its sheer sloppiness and scale. In actuality, we've seen similar things happen time and time again. [[Tornado#Super Mario Bros. 3|Prima]]. [[Fire Nipper Plant|Piranha]] [[Polterpiranha|Plant]] [[Nipper Dandelion|guidance]]. [[Talk:Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest#NA release date|Dates]]. Don't get me started on ''Art & Artifacts'' and ''Zelda Encyclopedia''. This is a new constant of our interconnected reality, for better or worse, and it's something that both pros and fans have to thread carefully. Sure, no doubt coincidences happen. If that makes us feel better, we can chalk things up to coincidences. But sometimes, you can't help but smell something '''fishy''', and in the aftermath, you wonder how preventable it was if the leash was held just a little tighter...like [[Croaka Cola|Croaka-Cola]]. That mysterious leftover hyphen made me do a massive double-take because I have a ''distinct'' suspicion on its origin (no, I will not elaborate here, but if you know, you know). Considering Nintendo/Localsoft drama was [https://www.gamedeveloper.com/production/nintendo-s-systemic-policy-of-miscredting-is-harming-external-translators reported] sometime after the ''Super Mario RPG'' remake, and other strangeness like [https://web.archive.org/web/20231121212525/https://www.nintendo.com/jp/software/feature/magazine_2023winter/index_en.html?page=6&device=pc this top-left retranslated text-bubble] and all the other [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fE__ciXqJ26-JQ3_ah6zON_BzROTceRyvKWoIGlfmpA/edit?gid=174644527#gid=174644527 in-game languages] looking an awful lot like varying degrees of a master Japanese/English merged script, I've had this bad feeling that the scope of the official translators' fantastic work was extremely fragile, and that tears me up. But I digress; even if I find out I'm correct, I don't think the wiki's to blame. But it does show that we have the power to take a higher road less traveled, and for that, I strongly believe that the current restrictive system must be the lesser evil. Sorry if that sounds dramatic, but my honest fear is that the alternative would not be good in the long run, well-intentioned or not. If more fan-content cross-contamination controversies arise, don't tell me I didn't warn you. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:45, December 5, 2024 (EST)


Oh, and also - what about dev data names like [[Informant Mūcho]]? Would those be affected by this proposal? I remember a discussion on this informant guy specifically on Discord leading into the discussion that lead to this proposal. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 10:03, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Oh yeah and I guess [[Strike of Intuition]] is caught in the crosshairs of this since it is a move exclusive to [[Detective Peach]]. Given everything else, it gets merged too.
:Yes, the proposal states that it would "allow derived names to take precedent over ''internal'' and foreign names when those derived names are built upon a strong enough foundation". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:25, December 5, 2024 (EST)
This should also affect [[Fire Robota]] and [[Beam Robota]], right? Their counterpart [[Spear-bot|Yari Robota]] is the only one with a confirmed English name (Spear-bot) thanks to the ''[[Wario Land 3]]'' manual. So in this case they would've been "Fire-bot" and "Beam-bot" respectively. [[User:Winstein|Winstein]] ([[User talk:Winstein|talk]]) 12:32, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:I'd say that's too much of a stretch, isn't the point to only use these names when every part of them can be "derived" from other official names? "Fire" variants would usually (not always) be "Fire Enemy", not "Fire-enemy", and I don't know of any precedent for the naming of "Beam" variants. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::As Hewer says, the elements making up those names and how they are localized into English do not have much data backing them up, as well as "Spear-bot" being somewhat of a portmantau rather than the standard "descriptor proper-name", and wouldn't make a clear consensus. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 13:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)


@Roserade: The point isn't that the translation is bad, but that we shouldn't be the ones translating it, we should be providing the official names as they are. "Reasonably deducing what a translation should be" is not what the wiki is for (and "should" is also unavoidably subjective). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Salmancer}}<br>
:Also,<br>"Ultimately, our aim as a fan wiki should be accessibility of its userbase"<br>No, our ultimate aim is to provide information about the subject matter that is as close to truth as possible. Or in the absence of something that can be deemed "truth", a consensus from the ones who handle the franchise. I'm kinda over this whole idea that accessibility comes at the cost of veracity and accuracy. <s>Supper Mario Broth would be disappointed in us</s>. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:20, December 5, 2024 (EST), edited 13:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': March 31, 2025, 23:59 GMT
::Mostly towards KCC: I firmly hold that our ultimate aim should be accessibility. This is why we adjust literally anything on the wiki - table layouts, redirects, etc. If our purpose was just glossary, we'd be doing nothing but creating bulleted lists. Explicit or not, we are always aiming to create a space that best facilitates the accessing of information - and I feel that some of our delineations of what is a "valid" name or not stands in contrast to this aim. I'm noticing that you're using the language of ''is'' instead of ''should'', and I just want to say that I'm sorry my vision of this website varies in some ways from yours, but I think other interpretations of what this site is aiming to do are just as valid as this "purely objective" one, especially when changes are community-headed. I feel like I'm arguing into a theoretical circle that isn't leading me anywhere as I type, but I hope my feelings are clear. I don't think using the mountain of evidence to determine why "Fire Spike" is an acceptable name is doing anything to damage the reputability or informational identity of the wiki, and it would allow our information to be more accessible at a glance. [[User:Roserade|Roserade]] ([[User talk:Roserade|talk]]) 15:51, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::We are indeed aiming to create a space that best facilitates the accessing of information - official information, not fan names or information we think should be official. There's a big difference between changing the way we present information for accessibility and changing the information that we are presenting. The point of the wiki is only to present official information. I agree that Fire Spike would be a fine name for the character, but it's simply not official, so us wishing that it was does not constitute a "mountain of evidence". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:15, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::You are overlapping two extremely heterogenous aspects of the wiki: the presentation of information (including but not limited to, wording, layout, aesthetics), and the information itself. Yes, it's good to have information laid out in a pretty and accessible way, not so much when that bleeds into the information itself. So much for the accusation of bad faith when you're trying to liken the opposition's perspective to "we should only have bulleted lists!!!11"<br>Nintendo gives us a name for a subject, we use that. It's super clear-cut and avoids [[Talk:Kodeka Kakibō|Hefty Goombrat-isms]] as well as eluding the need of a hundred disclaimers pointing to how the name is conjectural. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:54, December 5, 2024 (EST) edited 16:56, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Not directed at Koopa con Carne or Roserade or Hewer but in general: Just stepping in here to please keep things civil, please don't construct strawmen out of the oppositions' points. Thanks. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:04, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::I saw that "Hefty Goombrat" was mentioned derisively in the previous proposal, and I'm curious as to why that is, beyond the compromises of any derived name? Kodeka Kakibō is extremely similar in both behavior and name to [[Hefty Goomba|Kodeka Kuribō]], so it appears simple from the outside. Is it because Hefty Goomba is the only point of official localization for "Kodeka"? --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::It's a flowery name. "Wacky", if you will. It reeks of Fantendo. If you ''really'' want to give this enemy a conjectural name at the expense of the official one, just use "Big Goombrat"; not only do even bigger variants of this enemy not exist, but [[MarioWiki:Naming#Conjectural names|policy]] states that "When deciding on a name, the [conjectural] name must be simple yet accurate." {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:05, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::I'm not sure I agree with it being "flowery". It behaves just like and is particularly named just like the Kodeka Kuribō, so it follows that it would use the same naming scheme. Most enemies which are called "big" in English use simply "deka" in Japanese. I can understand being hesitant about using just the Hefty Goomba as reference, given this proposal hinges on the Mario franchise's tendency for consistent naming schemes. If this proposal passes, Kodeka Kakibō would probably warrant some discussion on its own. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::That just shows how subjective the entire basis of this proposal is. You think naming it as such is logical, but that is plain and simply an opinion, and not one that will necessarily be shared. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:31, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The point I brought up [[Talk:Mame-san#Name source|here]] was that Kodeka Kakibō is analogous to Big Goomba in ''Super Mario Maker 2'', Hefty Goomba in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' (per the new name), and indeterminate in ''Super Mario Run''. There is no one-size-fits-all solution in such a loony scenario. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:37, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::::That's starting off the assumption that the enemy in ''Super Mario Maker 2'' is a "Kodeka Kakibō" to begin with, which, considering the equivalent Goomba enemy is officially referred to in Japanese as "Deka Kuribō", doesn't seem like a very reasonable assumption. Sure, they have the same role, but so do Maker's Big Goomba and New's Hefty Goomba. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 07:35, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Exactly. The current merged article is trying to make the best out of a suboptimal situation. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::I think that it's still very key that the enemy is particularly named Kodeka Kakibō in Wonder, literally translating as "mini big Goombrat". Wonder continues to use the name Kodeka Kuribō for the ''Double-Sized-Goomba-That-Splits-Into-Regular-Goombas'' like the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games before it, likely because of the presence of of actual Deka Kuribō that split into them. There is no such Deka Kakibō however, meaning they could have very well called the ''Double-Sized-Goombrat-That-Splits-Into-Regular-Goombrats'' a Deka Kakibō instead. Nintendo had it in mind that these two enemies were directly comparable, going so far as to give the Goombrat a name with a level of specificity (kodeka rather than just deka) it didn't need. As for how this plays into ''Super Mario Maker'', I think it's fine to call the ''Double-Sized-Goombrat'' there a Kodeka Kuribō with a lack of evidence otherwise. It's not [[Sledge Bro|unheard of]] for enemies in ''Super Mario Maker'' to not just become "Big" when given a mushroom. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 05:23, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Again, the problem with this is that it's all just your subjective interpretation. The fact there's even an argument to be had here about how to translate the name goes to show that it is not one of the "obvious" translations this proposal is going for. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:54, December 7, 2024 (EST)


Not gonna try to throw shade but while I agree with the proposal on derived names it does look odd that a large contigent of users that don't otherwise directly participate in the wiki voted, and voted in a quite short time span. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:48, December 5, 2024 (EST)
====Merge moves and Listify Fly: Merge moves to forms, and convert [[Fly]] into a list with the name {{Fake link|List of methods of flight}}====
: People talk, especially in the wiki forum and the communities surrounding it, and sometimes a proposal can attract attention from veteran editors (especially when it is as interesting as this). Rare as it is, I think it's good that users with a long history of wiki contribution can still lend their opinion, even if they aren't currently active. {{User:The Pyro Guy/sig}} 16:19, December 5, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Salmancer}} Per proposal.
::Wasn't there a hard rule against proposal soliciting? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Discussing a proposal before posting it doesn't necessarily involve solicitation, as long as no one is asked to vote. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 16:31, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::There is a key difference between soliciting votes and simply bringing up a proposal to discuss it (the latter is what happened, of course). Everyone here is voting independently based on the subject matter, even if opinions align in this case. {{User:The Pyro Guy/sig}} 16:35, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::What does make this different than [[Talk:Kamek#Split_Wizakoopa_.28i.e..2C_the_Super_Mario_RPG_boss_character.29|outright meatpuppeting]] is that community members who voted here still at least had prior history editing even if they are active no longer, as opposed to in this case where oppose voters showed up only to vote in a single proposal and never contributed anywhere else. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Also I do disagree that merely discussing a proposal isn't a form of solicitation, even if there is no directly asking a user to vote. There will always be biases in play depending on who approaches you and why you approach particular people: I'm more inclined to vote in support of my sister's proposal because of such inherent biases at play, and more in favor of supporting other people's proposals because I'm more aligned with their judgement or I have personally more trust in them than others, even if the same points are made, we all do. However, I do think a rule against vote solicitation is unenforceable because at what parameters do people suddenly break the rule? There's always going to be some bias towards one side regardless if there was direct solicitation involved or if it's implicated (and the latter is much tougher to analyze but honestly it's not worth dissecting intentions, we're supposed to assume good faith in all users). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:50, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::I do hear that, but bringing up a proposal in a public space (such as the Discord server) surely would not be a form of solicitation in any case, and is a pretty straightforward and honest way of handling something like this. Just trying to look out for a newer user such as PopitTart in this case particularly since this is their first proposal, and I wouldn't want to accuse them of impropriety without some kind of evidence. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 16:54, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::Oh no, I understand your side. I'm just commenting that you can't completely avoid solicitation because of a lot of inherent biases that'll always be in play. Even writing a proposal practically is a sophisticated solicitation to get people to support you. In this case, I'd honestly have a proposal get votes from solicitation than proposals that end dead with a no quorum or extended dates. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 16:57, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::This makes sense to me — I really mean that it's not an improper or untoward form of solicitation that the wiki ought to discourage in my opinion; I do definitely see what you mean about basic proposal-writing being some form of solicitation, lol. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 17:01, December 5, 2024 (EST)


:I discussed the subject at length on the Discord server prior to starting the proposal, as I'd never done one before and wanted to make sure I accounted for all the nuances of the topic and got all the bureaucratic details right. Several of the votes are from users who were in that discussion and presumably wanted to get their opinion in officially as soon as they could. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 16:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
====Merge moves, Fly is free: Merge moves to forms, but keep Fly as is====


:{{@|Mario}} Whether or not the votes have been solicited, I don't know. I'd not want that to be the case. But I think users should be allowed to voice their opinions on a wiki-relevant matter regardless of how much "credit" they have to their name as a user of the wiki, and regardless of whether they are a user at all or not. Otherwise the site just becomes a clique of stuffy nerds who monopolize the work done here and pretend it's justifiable just because they're more involved. This isn't a shade to the opposition (especially since I'm part of it), it just seems like a natural course of things in the given scenario. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:51, December 5, 2024 (EST)
====Clip Fly's wings: Do not merge moves to forms, change Fly from an article to a list with the name {{Fake link|List of methods of flight}}====
::Problem I have is less the idea of what is and isn't solicitation and more that something organized in such a way will of course have more users who have already made up their mind compared to the active users who generally pay conscientious attention to proposal discussions. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:05, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::I still don't see an ethical problem in this. Indeed, there are a few users whose entire activity in the past years has been to vote for the prevailing sentiment in a discussion, refuse to elaborate, promptly leave. I understand your concern, as you're dedicated to the project and your intentions have been nothing but good--full disclosure, hopefully I don't offend by being honest, but I don't personally like the practice so described either--however, everyone here has a given freedom to vote. If they're not carrying out a concerted effort to sway a consensus, I'm not one to stop them, and I wouldn't be above them were I more conscientious. Most importantly, they're still part of the community even if they're not as active in the space designated the "wiki". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:25, December 5, 2024 (EST), edited 19:27, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::No offense taken whatsoever, though I do think it's curious that right after you say you don't see a problem, you then voted "mostly to the detriment of the first option." And, fine, if that's what it comes down to, but I think that adds fuel to my distrust of setting proposals up in Discord servers or however this happened. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:40, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::When I said I dislike the practice "so described", I wasn't referring to your behavior, so I apologize if it came off that way. Also, I'm not part of the Discord server. If the other option was added following a discussion over there, I don't know. I don't think I'm being disingenuous with my statements if I then choose to vote mostly against another option--as I said, everyone's got certain freedoms in these activities. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:56, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::The decision to add the third option was based on comments here, (see Lady Sophie's above and Exiled.Serenity's below) and discussed briefly on the Discord server to, again, make sure I'm doing all the formatting and such correctly for my first time.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 21:15, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::To explain the ire against inactive users coming out of the woodwork to vote on something and do nothing else, the fact that they do nothing else means they won't have to deal with the consequences of a disastrous idea they're supporting. And in many cases, the wiki was a different place when they ''were'' active. My mind keeps going to [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Brown_Yoshi&diff=1666939&oldid=1659564 this edit], which was performed in 2014 by a user who hadn't been active since 2006, and was so out-of-tune with how the wiki was by then that it is preserved in the BJaODN now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:48, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I disagree that votes cast with relative detachment from the Mario Wiki project are inherently discourteous or damaging. Sure, concerning the proposal itself, it technically erodes the site's stated promise of accuracy, and I'm firmly against it... but a descriptor like "disastrous" kind of overstates the scale of a problem whose greatest possible impact on society is influencing a couple of names in a media franchise (as with Super Mario Encyclopedia). People voting for that to happen is a big nothing burger in the grand scheme of things, however much we scrape the paint off our keyboards arguing, and if you disagree with the consensus, you're not forced to make the proposed changes yourself. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:31, December 6, 2024 (EST), edited 16:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::"Disastrous" was not referring to this proposal specifically, more the issue in general. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:37, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::Hey, when you happen to be on many peoples' lists of best-maintained wikis, there naturally comes a certain pressure not to upend the teatable, as it were. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)


Still undecided on this, but to build on Lady Sophie's point above, it feels like we're drawing kind of an arbitrary line here. For example: The internal name we have for what the wiki calls "Comet Tico" is "TicoComet.arc", so we're already making the assumption that this is a Comet Tico and not a Tico Comet, that these are actually intended as two words at all, that the file extension is not intended as part of the name, and that the name of the file even describes what's in the file. Which is all reasonable, of course, since the surrounding context of other entities' official names heavily implies that all that is supposed to be the case. However, if we're worried about maintaining strict adherence to the text, I'd argue none of that is valid. The only appropriate page name would be "TicoComet.arc", which I don't like personally, but at least it'd be consistent. Or, of course, we could take the final step of also assuming that the word "Tiko" is just the Japanese term for Luma, and treating it as such. {{User:Exiled.Serenity/sig|Sarah}} 17:39, December 5, 2024 (EST)
====Oppose: Status quo====
:I'm pretty sure "Comet Tico" was also the name from the Japanese version of the SMB Encyclopedia. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Many of the moves in question are used by multiple forms, <s>so attempting to merge them to all separately would violate [[Mariowiki:Once and only once]]</s> {{color|purple|EDIT: which makes determining appearances of the move across different games more difficult to find}}. Furthermore, we do not merge ''character''-specific moves to their respective pages (other than non-''Mario'' characters in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series) - for instance, look at [[Scuttle]] and [[Flutter Jump]] - so why should we do so with forms?
::The [[Comet Tico]] page uses the dev data template, so that's probably not true. This has also been done with several other articles that have titles derived from internal data - [[Dark Nokonoko]] and [[Disaster Neko]], to name a couple. Adding to this, we also have [[Peddler Kinopio]], which is only labeled "PeddlerKNP" in the files. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:49, December 5, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I don't think we cover moves and other actions particularly well, and I would rather see what that looks like before proposing mergers. Moves are not strictly the same as the form itself (i.e. Flying Squirrel Mario, Power Squirrel Mario, and captured Glydon can all "glide"), and it would be nice to see detail on what the moves are in isolation. Sometimes different power-uped forms perform the same move. A quick look through the fly article indicates there are things lumped together there that really aren't the same thing.
:::I mean, there is [[Bone Run Run Packun]] named as such, despite the existence of a proper Japanese name, ''Ran Ran Hone Pakkun''. I would've tried to get it moved when I noticed, but I think it would be best to wait for this proposal to end so we don't have to potentially move it twice.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:58, December 5, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all. the current state of the wiki's move coverage just isn't good enough right now to determine whether this proposal would have any benefits. would love to see this proposal again in the future when we have more ground to stand on, but it's not the time right now.
::Looks like someone beat me to it, but here's my response anyway: "Looking at the [[Comet Tico]] page, it has the disclaimer that the name comes from development data. Not sure if that's accurate or not, but the only other name cited (コメットチコ) is from the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]], and is in untransliterated Japanese. Either way, I don't think it changes my point much." {{User:Exiled.Serenity/sig|Sarah}} 17:57, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::Would those other pages be affected by this proposal? I don't know of other "Disaster" variants to use as precedent for Disaster Neko, and both it and Dark Nokonoko have another Japanese name listed on their articles that doesn't seem to be from internal data, so how do we know which one an official translation would use? (I feel like these kinds of disagreements that require subjective decisions are another point against this proposal.) As for Peddler KNP, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Move Super Princess Peach enemies to their full names|I'd be fine using that name]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:03, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::I agree we should not be manipulating in-game file name data just to procure something that makes more linguistic sense to us, but I view names like "Comet Tico" or most of the unlocalized subjects from ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' to just be Romanizations of their Japanese names, which is something I support. I know from firsthand experience in other fields that this is not an uncommon practice for English texts directed at Japanese audiences, and I do not agree it hurts accessibility or readability. It is just a sincere reflection of what we have, and I would rather not give the impression otherwise. Good reference material make efforts to mitigate the spread of misinformation. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:09, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::This is basically the equivalent of transliterating loanwords in foreign names, which is a minimum for language legibility. The way files are typically written is for the base version to be the first word, and then variant characteristics appended afterwards. That's just a consequence of organization, keeping alike things alphabetically arranged for ease of reference. Not all the time, but usually, and CamelCase also denotes where there would normally be a space. Cross-referencing also indicates how the names were likely intended to be read. Maybe the template wording can be revised a little bit. (Comet Tico is, by the way, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Partially unban citing the English version of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia as official names for subjects|a proposal suggestion]] to override Lumacomète.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:20, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::Why are foreign names being compared so much to internal names anyway? I've yet to encounter a foreign name that doesn't make sense syntactically, even in English (in "Fire Gabon are enemies in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''", you immediately understand the subject to be a fiery variant of a thing called "Gabon"; "Kodeka Kakibo" can be read by someone who doesn't know Japanese as simply the subject's name). There is more often than not some ''creative intent'' behind them, and using them in no way hurts accessibility as feared. In stark contrast, internal names are supposed to be utilitarian and may not translate well into prose ("Nokonoko Darks are enemies in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' has the flow of a ball of wet wipes in a drain). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:30, December 5, 2024 (EST)


I will say this: if it's considered too speculative to say that [[Swipin' Stu|Mario logically shouldn't get a sunstroke in the basement]], then outright making something up for quote-unquote "accessibility" at the expense of accuracy, the latter of which is our express goal, is ''definitely'' too speculative. You might think "Fire Spike" is an educated guess or something to that effect, but really, it's ''just'' a guess. It is not our prerogative to make up names or localize the games, which is why we only do the former when we have literally no viable alternative. This system we have is not arbitrary, this is the only way to do it while keeping accuracy as the main focus. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:59, December 5, 2024 (EST)
====Comments (Merge moves of forms to forms even if they are non-unique and replace Fly with a list)====
I am sorry this proposal planned for a while is going to merge an article that was just made. It kind of jumped further up my list of priorities given I don't want people to put hard work into adding to Tail whip if I'm about to try to merge it. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 18:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


I want to offer this insight, shared by CM30 in the Discord server (with permission to repost), that I believe articulates part of my argument better than I was able to: <br>"My opinion on this matter is that user readability should come first on an English speaking wiki. A reader shouldn't need an image or description to understand what a page is referring to, and that's a huge problem with relying too heavily on untranslated or foreign names. <br> And while you could argue that names should be official where possible, if they're literally just descriptions I see no harm in using a translation"<br> This is mostly what I mean about accessibility. Getting a first click of engagement is the most important step to getting someone what they're looking for on the wiki, and article titles that don't give clear communication of what a player has seen hinders this process and can cause confusion instead. Again, it's not true for every article that can be interpreted - only ones that have sufficient indication of what their derived name should be. [[User:Roserade|Roserade]] ([[User talk:Roserade|talk]]) 18:24, December 5, 2024 (EST)
Question; would this merge [[Fireball Punch]], and would this failing result in re-instating [[Talk:Dangan Mario|Dangan Mario]]? These manga "forms" are kind of an edge case. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:23, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:Beyond my usual disagreements that being an English wiki means that English material is to be treated as The One and Only Source of Truth...<br>"A reader shouldn't need an image or description to understand what a page is referring to"<br>This makes zero sense. I'm sorry. I mean no offense to CM30, but if an encyclopedia wouldn't employ descriptions and demonstrative attachments, it wouldn't be an encyclopedia at all. It would be something closer to a... [[Special:Diff/4452460|glossary]].<br>A reader who's never had so much contact with the Mario franchise wouldn't immediately think of a brown anthropomorphic mushroom upon seeing the word "Goomba". That's where the wiki aids them with descriptions and images. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:41, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:Oh dear manga questions. From what I understand of things, I think nothing should happen either way. Dangan Mario was an article as a form, so unless it's getting reevaluated to be a named move it stays where it lies. Fireball Punch is tricky. The thing is that this proposal exists because of pressures from the medium of video games. Fireball Punch is from a linear narrative story, there's not really much of a benefit readers gain from merging Fireball Punch because odds are someone looking at Super Mario Wiki to read about Fireball Mario doesn't need to know what a Fireball Punch is soon after. They might not even be reading the fifth chapter of Volume 1, the only place with a Fireball Punch. You can hardly consider the Fireball Punch to be a core part of Fireball Mario like all of the moves involved in the proposal. Fireball Punch is free from this proposal, though someone else might think the lack of length means it should be merged into Fireball Mario given this proposal is merging many longer articles or sections of articles into their home forms. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 18:56, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:It's still presenting conjecture over official names. Which is not how we operate, nor should it be. Just because something's "easier to understand" doesn't make it better. Opening Fire Gabon's page with "'''Fire Spikes''' are enemies from ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''" rubs me too much the wrong way because it's deliberately demoting the only official name we have for it in favor of something that is entirely based on guesswork. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:43, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::But the "only official name" is itself not official. The Japanese name is "Faia Gabon" so the "Fire" part is derived, the internal name is "EnemyFireGabon" so if that counts as official (which I personally disagree with, seeing as it's internal data the developer never would have intended to be seen publicly, if we had no official confirmed name for an enemy in a game and it was internally labelled as "Enemy1.pack.zs" would we call the page "Enemy 1"?) then "Fire Gabon" is still a derived name from that. If you think we should be prescriptivist about this, fine, but don't pick and choose what you apply these rules to and what you don't. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 19:10, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::"Faia" is the English word "fire" written for a syllabic language. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:28, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::It's literally just the word "fire" uttered using Japanese characters. It's a matter of linguistic stricture. Deriving the word "fire" from the word "fire" is neither conjecture or prescriptivist LMAO. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:37, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::<small><small>Why is this starting to sound like that "tsk, it's not ''Mamu'', it's ''Mam<u>ū</u>''" [[Talk:Wart#Calling him "Mamu" in YK:DDP|joke]] I made a while ago?</small></small> Okay, several things. Firstly, everything in a game, including the parts that make it tick, is official. By definition. This is no personal agreement or disagreement to be made here. The word you ''seem'' to be looking for is "canon", [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|which is not an argument this wiki is interested in.]] If a development name is too utilitarian to use, simple: ''we don't use it'' (for example, Kongā being one of the numbered "waru" DK-bots). In the case that there is no foreign name, we'd probably use a conjectural name than that hypothetical example. The remaining Fire/Faia argument displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how language and databasing work (as already gone over), and the proposer mixed in both under one new option, seemingly redefining [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects with Japanese names|our longstanding common-sense rules]] under the "derived" umbrella (frankly, slipping in perceived Japanese word quibbles is an overreach of this name proposal). And utilizing different sources effectively makes encyclopedias encyclopedic. Becoming the ''Sūpā Mario Burazāzu'' Wiki will, in my opinion, put a damper on our reliability. There is nothing broken to fix here. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:28, December 5, 2024 (EST)
::::I didn't catch that the second option apparently violates the wiki's guidelines, I'm not a frequent editor and I simply went off what discussion in here suggested. I would be okay with the option being reworded to allow loan words to remain as their English spelling if necessary.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 22:18, December 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::It’s worth noting that [[MarioWiki:Naming#Japanese]] specifically mentions that names such as “Yoshi” and “Koopa” should use their official English names in article titles that don’t have an official English name. Granted, it doesn’t specify every context that this should be used in or which other names this would apply to, however I feel that it would be logical to extend this existing rule to enemy names that already have an offical English translation, like Spike or Luma. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 01:08, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::The difference is between transcription of names and translation of names. It's saying to write Kuppa as Koopa, not to replace it with Bowser. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:55, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Not entirely sure if transcription is the right term to use here or if transliteration would be more accurate, however your point is valid that this seems to be a slightly different topic from the one at hand, so I’ll admit that my previous comment might not be relevant to this discussion. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}}
:::::::Yes, that's the use case. Personally, when I see Japanese names being swapped out for English ones, I'm not going to be thinking, "ah, finally, ''Bauzā no Hikōsen da yo''," I'll be thinking, "oh, is this one of those times [[Super Mario Bros. 2#Notable mistakes and errors|the]] [[History of Bowser#Super Mario Sunshine|Western]] [[Foreman Spike#The Super Mario Bros. Movie|name]] made it to Japanese media?" Anyway, let me get the second option straight. If it passes, I'm taking it that the changes will look something like this?
*[[Assembly Block|AssemblyBlock]] (clipping of the various <tt>AssemblyBlockParts</tt> files to match internal Japanese name)
*[[Attack Ghost|AttackGhostA]]
*[[Banana Heli Bird|BananaHeliBird]]
*[[Banana Squid|BananaSquid]]
*[[Barbell|barbell_anim / DebrisDumbbell]]
*<s>[[Barrel Bomb|BarrelBomb]]</s>
*[[Bazooka Heyho|HeyhoBazooka]]
*[[BGM Tride]]?
*[[Big Bee|BigBee]] (''Donkey Kong Jungle Beat'')
*[[Big Run Run Packun|EnemyBigPackunRun or EnemyBigRunRunPackun]]
*[[Bird Nest|BirdNest / BirdNestFire or BirdFireNest / BatNest]]
*[[Black Fairy|fairyblack / BlackFairyAttack]]
*[[Blood Pine|BloodPine]]
*[[Bob-omb Fish|bobombfish_anim]]
*[[Bone Run Run Packun|EnemyPackunBoneRun or EnemyBoneRunRunPackun]]
*[[Boss Pig Poppo|PigPoppoBoss]]
*[[Bunmawashi Doll|BunmawashiDoll]]
*[[Candy Block]]? (+ other remaining [[Super Mario Bros. Wonder|''Wonder'']] [[User talk:Time Turner/unfinished#Super Mario Bros. Wonder|stuff]] still redlinked)
*[[Ceiling Needle|CeilingNeedle]]
*[[Chandelier|Czako_chandelier]]
*[[Check Point (Yoshi's Crafted World)|CheckPointA]]
*[[Co Gasagoso|ksm_co_gasagoso]]
*[[Coco Pig|CocoPig]]
*[[Comet Tico|TicoComet]]
*[[Cuttacutta|cuttacutta_anim]]
*[[Dan Spider|DanSpider]]
*[[Dark Nokonoko|EnemyNokonokoDark]]
*[[Disaster Neko|NekoDisaster / NekoParentDisaster]]
*[[Domino block|Czako_domino_block]]
*[[Donguri Heyho|HeyhoDonguri]]
*[[Electricity Block|ObjectBlockElectricity]]
*[[Eye Beamer|EyeBeamer]]
*[[Fairy Board|FairyBoard]]
*[[Fairy Trampoline|FairyTrampoline]]
*[[Fire Bakky|FireBakky]]
*[[Fire Mini-Iga|FireMiniIga]]
*[[Fire Pig Poppo|PigPoppoFire]]
*[[Fire Shy Guy|ShyGuyFire]]
*[[Fling Pole|FlingPole]]
*[[Fly Bomb|Cmn_fly_bomb]]
*[[Fly Child|Cmn_fly_child]]
*[[Fly Heyho|HeyhoFly]]
*[[Fly Parent|Cmn_fly_parent]]
*[[Glass bird|Czako_glass_bi]]
*[[Gold Mini Slump Bird|SlumpBirdMiniGold]]
*[[Gold Treasure Box|TreasureBoxGold]]
*[[Hip Drop Move Lift|CloudWorldHomeHipDropMoveLiftParts000]]
*[[Ice Bakky|IceBakky]]
*[[Ice Meteor|IceMeteor]]
*[[Ice Mini-Iga|IceMiniIga]]
*[[Ice Snake Block|block_snake_ice]]
*[[Informant Mūcho|B4_Informant_MUC]]
*[[Jelly Fish|JellyFish]] (''Donkey Kong Jungle Beat'')
*[[Juggling Heyho|Heyho_Juggling]] (clipping of various <tt>Heyho_Juggling</tt> assets)
*[[Kaeru Block|kaerublock]]
*[[Kanaami Road|roadkanaami]]
*[[Kiba Pig Poppo|PigPoppoKiba]]
*[[Kurako|f_kurako / f_kurata]]
*[[Luigi Block|R_block_luigi]]
*[[Luigi Key|luigi_key]]
*[[Mini Elephant Cannon|ElephantCannonMini]]
*[[Mini Panda|MiniPanda]]
*[[Mini Pig Poppo|MiniPigPoppo]]
*[[Mini Slump Bird|SlumpBirdMini]]
*[[Mini-Iga|MiniIga]]
*[[Moai|f_bg_moai_ba]]
*[[Neko Parent|NekoParent]]
*[[Pea Frog|PeaFrog]]
*[[Pea Jelly Fish|PeaJellyFish]]
*[[Peach doll|cg_data-character-p0242_peach_doll]]
*[[Peddler Kinopio|O4_KicthenEvt01_PeddlerKNP_01]]
*[[Pelmanism Leaf|Mobj_PelmanismLeaf]]
*[[Penguin Racers|PenguinRacers]]
*[[Pinball digital counter|s_PinBall_Digital_Counter0]]
*[[Pinball tulip|s_PinBall_Tulip_OPEN]]
*[[Pinecone|PineconesA]]
*[[Pipeman|f_pipeman_ma]]
*[[Prof. Kinopio|KNP_Prof]]
*[[Pump Mario|STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI]]
*[[Raft|raft_anim]]
*[[remix course]]?
*[[Robo Kikki|RoboKikki]]
*[[Robomb|Robomb_Gold]]
*[[Rolling Frog|RollingFrog]]
*[[Rush Heyho|HeyhoRush]]
*[[Sea Turtle|SeaTurtle]]
*[[Senobi Generate Point|SenobiGeneratePoint]]
*[[Skall Heyho|HeyhoSkall]]
*[[Sky Move Lift|lift_move_sky]]
*[[Slave Basa|slave_basa]]
*[[Sleep Pig Poppo|PigPoppoSleep]]
*[[Slide Box|SLIDE_BOX]]
*[[Snow Mole|SnowMole]]
*[[Snow Ucky Kong|SnowUckyKong]]
*[[Space Junk Galaxy]] planets
*[[Spiked Barrel|BarrelSpiked]]
*[[Spring Flower|SpringFlower]]
*[[Spyguy|spyguy_anim]]
*[[Star Piece Cluster|StarPieceCluster / StarPieceClusterRock]]
*[[Statue Armour Ghost|StatueArmourGhost]]
*[[Super Jump Panel|SuperJumpPanel]]
*[[Surfing Kinopio|KNP_Surfing]]
*[[Surprised Flower|SurprisedFlower]]
*[[Tatami Block|obj_blk_tatami]]
*[[Thwomp Platform|ThwompPlatform]]
*[[Time Cloud|TimeCloudA]]
*[[Timer Gate|TimerGate]]
*[[Togemasuku|Czako_togemasuku]]
*[[Togetoge|Czako_togetoge]]
*[[Tokkuri Flower|TokkuriFlower]]
*[[Torpedo Base|torpedobase]]
*[[Tuki|f_tuki]] (clipping of <tt>f_tuki_wlk</tt> and <tt>f_tuki_act</tt>)
*[[Vampire Heyho|HeyhoVampire]]
*[[Wario Key|wario_key]]
*[[Wind Blow Tower|WindBlowExTower000]]
*[[Wind Mouth|WindMouth]]
*[[Wonder Packun|EnemyPackunWonder]]
*[[Wrench Shy Guy|ShyGuyWrench or Wrench_Guy]] (latter is from <tt>Tex/Wrench_Guy_2.bntx.zs</tt> and <tt>Tex/Wrench_Guy_8.bntx.zs</tt> files)
*[[Zombie Debuho|Debuho_Zombie]] (clipping of <tt>Debuho_Zombie</tt> assets)
Just wanted to make sure the rest of you who didn't dip out yet are all on the same page lol [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)


This proposal shouldn't have touched development data names. This is a completely separate topic that needs a discussion of its own. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 10:14, December 6, 2024 (EST)
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} for your own sake, you should know "once and only once" as a strict policy has been [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Once_and_only_once&diff=4723954&oldid=4372233 retired]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:18, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:You're right. There certainly was a switcharoo [[Special:Diff/4452631|here]], wasn't there? ''After'' <u>coordinated</u> '''20''' voted for an option that's technically no longer there. What is going on? We should at least have a rule that proposals initially written with group input can't be revised afterwards, or a voting cap before revisions are unallowed... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:Thanks, wish I'd known that before. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:30, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::Was there an actual executional difference added to the basic "Support" option? I don't think I'm catching one. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:54, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::I believe the distinction being made is that "Informant" is not an established adjective <s>for enemies</s>, so in grouping [[Informant Mucho]] into option 1, the premise has been ever so slightly changed from "if the parts of the name have been translated separately we are allowed to put the translations together" to "grant increased permission to extrapolate a 'normal' name from development data" (EDIT:slight misreading)[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 10:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::This is not really different from the "Comet" in Comet Tico though, and "Informant" is literally written in English in the game files in that case (not translated by wiki users). Only "Mūcho" would be translated to Snifit in that case, much as it always has been, which is definitely the sort of thing that the first 20 supporters voted for. I don't think that the wool is being pulled over anyone's eyes. (edit: and, as someone who voted shortly before option 2 was added, I knew that this is what I was voting for.) {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 11:25, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::So what's the article title of this informant character going to be? If it's anything other than "B4_Informant_MUC", wouldn't it be classified as a "derived" name? See the problem? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::{{fake link|Informant Snifit}}, presumably, if the proposal passes—I'm not sure I'm understanding the confusion? This is the type of derived/translated name that the proposal is seeking to allow. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 11:36, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::...I just made a list of what the second option would do if it passes, right above. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:40, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::Apologies, I misunderstood and thought we were discussing the results of option 1... In that case I agree that the informant should be moved to B4_Informant_MUC if option 2 passes, yeah. I don't see how this is misleading anyone or making previous votes invalid, though? {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 11:44, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Sorry, I misspoke a little bit since I had the first and second updates mixed up in my head in this roller-coaster of a proposal. To recap, there were a total of :30: votes at the time the proposal was [[Special:Diff/4452631|first]] updated, and the odd timing of in/semi-active editors had already been brought up at that point. At the time of the [[Special:Diff/4452872|second]] update, the second option was dialed back - as it should have been since that would have to be the focus of a [[MarioWiki:Writing guidelines#What are writing guidelines?|writing guideline]] proposal - but nearly :10: users had already voted for the earlier version of that option. Make sense? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::If the proposal's Ship-of-Theseus'd itself into a different thing entirely after so many votes, it should probably be canceled and <s>never</s> restarted. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::I'll take Nintendo101's word below, but I still don't think option updates should've happened with something that grew so large already. That just brought needless confusion, especially when eyebrows were already raised. If we're going to be super-technical, isn't the act of transliteration itself not a derivative form? I'll say it again: templates could probably just be rephrased. Also, if community-made proposals are technically not breaking any rules ''now'', I believe we'll definitely be thinking about making some rules ''later''. Speaking for myself, I've always made sure my proposals stood on their own in all my time here; if I ever talked about my proposal plans, I'm pretty sure I've never given a time frame or 'advertised' (for lack of better word) when it was ready, and if I've ever talked about an active one, I'm pretty sure it was nearly always to give courtesy when proposal options have changed or when new information comes to light. That method has worked out for most wiki proposals fairly well. I've never once paid attention to or noticed anything involving Discord discussions, and this may be the first time I've come across a Discord-community-developed proposal. Why not go all out and let Super Mario Wiki's social media followers in on this proposal's existence too? As long as we don't tell them how to vote, of course. Now that'd be interesting. Or is that too far? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:22, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::::I don't know how much the owners of the Twitter account (where the bulk of the site's social media presence lies) are willing to lay a spotlight on the wiki's dramas, even if you loosely describe the Twitter as an extension of the wiki community. There's something ironic in saying that these discussions may be too heated for a Twitter user, however, I always thought the Mario Wiki account tries to maintain an attitude of good humor towards its followers, and the vibe of a discussion like the one here feels kind of contrary to that. The most I've seen of the account actively promoting inner-wiki endeavours were things related to The 'Shroom or [https://x.com/smwikiofficial/status/1313121059348967427 requesting volunteers] [https://x.com/SMWikiOfficial/status/1298293764734164992 to provide some source material].<br>The people at the Discord server and Mario Boards are more readily available to vote because a lot of them are signed up wiki users, with at least some history here, and who are more used to these discussions. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:13, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::::Could always make a sub-account. I call it... Super Mario Wiki: Proposal Patrol. Alerts followers of new proposals and developments. <small>I'm <s>half</s>-joking, of course.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:58, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::::::This is not a "Discord-community-developed proposal" and it is very disappointing that this is your impression from the details I provided. I find it incredibly bad faith. The advice given to PopitTart entailed suggesting she give examples of what this proposal would look like if enacted and making sure it was formatted correctly in terms of date and voting options. That is literally it. She did not even tell anyone when she published it. That is extremely innocuous and common practice, and has always been available to you or any user on this site, via reach out on talk pages, Mario Boards, or Discord. It is not at all uncouth. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:30, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::::::Don't get me wrong. I trust your assessment of the situation. It's just that the Discord side of things is, to the old-fashioned like me, a mystery box. I don't see, I'm not involved. It was Admin Mario who pointed out the obvious irregularity, and that part of the discussion rolled from there. I'm just making it clear that I'm one of the ones who wouldn't like it to become a new regular. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:12, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::For full disclosure, I am a regular participant in the Super Mario Wiki Discord and I actively gave PopitTart pointers on how to write this very proposal, including the inclusion of that second voting option. I disagree with the proposed changes and still do, but that is less important to me than helping a less experienced user do the best job they can. But the point is that I was privy to the surrounding discourse.
:::::::::From my perspective, I saw an inexperienced user from {{iw|pikipedia|Pikipedia:Page title guidelines|a NIWA wiki with different naming policies}} (and one who has also been more active on the Discord over the past year or so just because it is friendly space, so it is not like they mysteriously rose out of the woodwork just to make this proposal) passively share that they thought it was silly to not translate some of these straight-forward Japanese names, and other users through their own volition and agency openly agreed with them, some of which quite strongly. I did not personally see anyone encourage them to write this proposal with the aims of taking down a policy they dislike, ask others to vote, to vote in any particular way, or coordinate a plan to vote together as a group. (I did see encouragement from the perspective that it is nice to see an inexperienced contributor want to develop a main page proposal, as staff and senior editors generally support people taking initiatives and participating in community-driven spaces like proposals, but that is not the same thing, at least in my view.) Again, maybe this still feels uncomfortable, but I did not see anything I would consider to be "solicitation." I saw a user share a view that others agreed with, and they decided to make a proposal. Maybe proposals should be written with that as a disclaimer, but I do not think it is the same as solicitation. I do not think anyone here, be it supporter or opposition, is here in bad faith, and only want the wiki to be the best it can be, and I hope folks remember this even if the proposal is not going in the direction they would like.
:::::::::For me, at the end of the day, '''I want to give readers good, accurate, and reliably attested information''', even if about silly Nintendo games. I do not feel comfortable asserting "there is an enemy called Fire Spike in ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''", because that is not true. It is not called that in any ''Mario'' media. The impression I have is that I am calling it that because I ''want'' to call it that. Saying there is an enemy called Fire Gabon or even rendering that name as Faia Gabon, to me, ''is'' accurate and is just the information we have at the moment. The fact that this name looks silly next to related enemies like Stone Spike is a lot less substantive to me. I do not discount accessibility and readability as important - they absolutely are. I want people to come here, learn, and appreciate the work we do. However, I also believe readers are entitled to accurate information and I want the wiki to be trusted source. I do think the proposed changes weaken that a bit. There have been many good-faith arguments from the supporters - especially from Roserade and Hooded Pitohui - but none have addressed this impression of mine. My feelings are not as strong for in-game file names because the subjects I personally work with on the wiki typically have official names or are at least mentioned informally in officially-licensed literature, but I at least have found your remarks on this persuasive, LinkTheLefty. I think I realize from this discussion that I would support the Romanization of official Japanese names to take priority over internal file designations for games developed by Japanese speakers, but that is not what that this proposal is about. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:00, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::While I won't accuse the support to have been coordinated, especially coming off of your message, I will criticize the Discord folk for their tendency to come here with their mind made and refuse to take any of the counterarguments in consideration. "You want to make this wiki less accessible", "Encyclopedias should not rely on descriptions", and "ファイア is definitely not the same thing as the English word 'fire' in a different writing system" are not arguments made in good faith. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:32, December 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::::I don't want this to turn into full discourse unrelated to the proposal, but I also think it's entirely unfair to assume attitudes like this, and to misconstrue arguments to put words in people's mouths. Everyone I've seen discuss this on Discord has fully acknowledged that counterarguments have merits, including myself. I read every single comment on this proposal before I ever placed my own vote or comment. And I never once said that I think your aim is to make things less accessible for the entire wiki - I stated why I feel like this change would ''improve'' accessibility, which is a different argument altogether. Also feels just a hair hypocritical to say that we're appearing while refusing to take in counterarguments, while you began this proposal process with a '''bolded statement on what our website's intention is,''' which felt like you staunchly claiming that your position would not change. I'm not going to engage with this any further than that, just, worth acknowledging. [[User:Roserade|Roserade]] ([[User talk:Roserade|talk]]) 13:53, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::::Your impression seems to be that my bolded statement was an opinion--if I'm wrong, correct me--but I was merely highlighting a truth: the express mission statement and, until some time ago, prevailing sentiment in the site was that [[MarioWiki:Citations#Why sourcing? What needs it?|it should present information as accurately to the source material as possible]]. Speculation has always been frowned upon and removed on sight here. If there is ever going to be a global consenus that it's a better direction for the wiki to consistently let users make up their own constructs and pass them off as fact, I can accept it. Until then, I will try to uphold the above principle and bring attention to any developments that undermine the current explicit direction. This is not hypocrisy. The provision of facts in a medium with educational purpose is not negotiable, and I'm certain you are sensible enough to understand that. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:34, December 6, 2024 (EST), edited 14:39, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::On supporting official Japanese names over internal file designations - there are also a lot of names that are perfectly good, near-1:1 translations of Japanese equivalents. From my list: Banana Squid, barbell, Black Fairy /Attack, Electricity Block, Fairy Board & Trampoline, Ice Snake Block, Rolling Frog, Snow Mole, Spring & Surprised Flowers, and Assembly Blocks, to name a few; surely these would be preferable to Banana Ika, Tetsu Arei, Kuro Yōsei /Attacker, Hōden Block, Yōsei Ban & Trampoline, Kōri Snake Block, Koro Gaeru, Yuki Mogura, Bane & Bikkuri Hana, and Gattai Block, respectively. I was actually thinking of making my own proposal that would virtually be a controlled version of this one, which would formalize dev transliterations to go alongside [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Exceptions to using macrons|these]] [[MarioWiki:Japanese#Subjects with Japanese names|exceptions]] (for example, what we currently do with Bakky and Big Run Run Packun over Bakkī and Deka Run Run Pakkun, but extended as an additional reference point for "officialness" over fan-names). This proposal made me realize that...internal name handling was never formally codified in writing guidelines somewhere, was it? Rather, it's always been buried in discussions, even though I could've sworn otherwise. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:05, December 7, 2024 (EST)


I understand that at this point whether or not I vote is kinda irrelevant, but still, I'm curious, would [[Jewel Rausuto]] be moved to [[Jewel Goob]] or stay as is? I'd rather have it stay as is, personally. After all, "Summon Rausuto" and "Kill Rausuto" are officially translated as "Diffusing Goob" and "Lethal Goob" respectively. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:42, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Characters aren't forms, so their moves are unaffected by this proposal, which means Scuttle isn't involved, Character/power-ups are unaffected, so Flutter Jump also isn't affected and you can't loophole abuse your way to merging Scuttle through the [[Luigi Cap]]. Forms that are improved versions of other forms already defer to the base form for unchanged abilities they inherit. Ice Mario has two paragraphs dedicated to using Ice Balls See example text of everything Penguin Mario has to say about Ice Balls..
:Hey, there's still 13 whole days left in this proposal, anything can happen. If you feel strongly about it, you should certainly make your voice heard. As for the Jewel Rausuto, I'm unsure, which means it probably should not be translated. You are correct that Diffusing Goob and Lethal Goob are not direct translations despite using English words, however Bomb Goob, Mini Goob, Regen Goob, and Speed Goob are. With that though, the "Jewel" part of the name is questionable. It drops ''gems'' when attacked, not jewels, so it's harder to make the same argument as Comet Luma here. This may be another case of individual subject discussion. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:07, December 6, 2024 (EST)
<blockquote>After Mario has become this form, he can throw Ice Balls at enemies and freeze them. Mario can then use the frozen enemies as platforms or pick them up and throw them against the wall or other enemies. </blockquote> - [[Penguin Mario]]
The system works! It's repeated for [[White Raccoon Mario]] in relation to Raccoon Mario, as per the line, "It gives the player Raccoon Mario's abilities, causes the P-Meter to charge more quickly, allows the player to run and stand on water (like Mini Mario), and grants invincibility for the stage". It's also done for [[Power Squirrel Mario]] to [[Flying Squirrel Mario]], with "As Power Squirrel Mario, Mario has all of the abilities of Flying Squirrel Mario, though he never loses the ability to glide and can perform Flying Squirrel Jumps continuously without landing". [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:35, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of either of the proposed changes, though I do agree the current guidelines need to be changed somehow. For example, Disaster Neko isn't the name in any language, it's not something that readers could intuitively search for, is barely comprehensible to most readers, and isn't even the actual filename. That's no good. Obviously there's no perfect solution (beyond Nintendo taking the time to properly localise everything we could write an article about, which realistically isn't going to happen), but might there be merit in pausing this proposal somehow? Given that there's now precedent for additional voting options being added in response to feedback, I think it would be worth letting the discussion play out without there being 'stakes' i.e. the voting deadline and the recognition that this will affect many, many pages.
"List of methods of flight" as a name for the userpage was designed to be aware that not everything on Fly is the same kind of move. (and also it managed to morph into a list of all ways to get from point A to point B if point B is higher than point A... and then an extra addendum for hovering over hazards.) Would it be better if it were placed in mainspace as "List of methods of flight"? [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:47, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


I'm not an active editor and certainly not knowledgeable on the exact procedures of wiki proposals, but if there was an option to reset, re-discuss, and restart the proposal with voting options that properly reflected the outcome of the discussion, I would go for that. {{User:The Pyro Guy/sig}} 18:14, December 6, 2024 (EST)
Regarding your saying that tail whip's info would be moved to Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games, would that not mean that Tanooki Mario's page would not discuss the tail whip until ''Super Mario 3D Land'', despite it being usable by that form in ''Super Mario Bros. 3''? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:53, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:I'm not certain about the logistics about pausing a proposal or anything of that sort (nor would I have any stake in such a decision), but I will say, I do think the idea of letting the discussion play out without "stakes", as you say, has merit. Something here on which I agree with KCC on is that this is ultimately related to the mission of the site, and perceptions and sentiments around how to achieve that mission. What this proposal is adressing is a matter of organizing, categorizing, and especially presenting information, and that tends to invoke considerations of high-level, philosophical approaches. Unlike, say, a hypothetical proposal to merge two varieties of Goombas, the discussion doesn't hinge on demonstrating some detail is true or false; instead, we're explorting as a community a major aspect of how we fulfill our mission of collecting and presenting the ''Mario'' franchise to an audience of Internet users. Whenever a discussion veers into philosophies around categorizing and presenting information, you often get a surprising diversity of views, and those views tend to be strongly held - if you've ever waded into taxonomy, you'll see it!
:Tanooki Mario is already doing exactly that. I don't see anything that makes the article hard to follow, short of it going "there is mandatory reading before reading this article." Which White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario have been doing as well. It's fine. <blockquote>In this form, he can turn into an invulnerable statue by holding +Control Pad down and pressing B Button at the same time, '''in addition to using Raccoon Mario's moves''', making it an improved version of Raccoon Mario. </blockquote> - [[Tanooki Mario]], ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' section.
:<blockquote>However, the form's mechanics are different from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', as while Mario can still tail whip (by pressing {{button|3ds|X}} or {{button|3ds|Y}}) and glide (now done by holding {{button|3ds|A}} or {{button|3ds|B}}, as with [[Cape Mario|Caped Mario]], rather than tapping the buttons), he cannot fly during gameplay. </blockquote> - [[Tanooki Mario]], ''Super Mario 3D Land'' section.
:Uh, filler text for sig. I guess I'm advocating for building the ''3D Land'' text up more, since that game shouldn't be deferring to Raccoon Mario as it sort of does now. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 20:05, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::But how is it superior to do so compared to just having an article for the move? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:::Hypothetical: "Wow! Tanooki Mario is so cool! What does he do?/I just beat ''3D Land'', is there any nuance to it I missed?/Are there any bugs in 3D Land I can exploit with it? I know, I'll go to the [[Tanooki Mario]] page on Super Mario Wiki!"
:::In the current wiki, the three hypothetical people with varying interest in Super Mario read both an article on Tanooki Mario and an article on [[Tail whip]] to find everything they want to know. This proposal wants to make all of them only read one article, Tanooki Mario. I think this is better because it saves them the additional click and additional loading time and appeals to lower attention spans. I value these hypothetical readers over the hypothetical reader who is a Mario historian who wants to see the evolution of Tail whip across every game of the franchise. Keep in mind, redirects exist so the earlier three hypotheticals can mostly get to the right page if they zig where I think they'd zag and search for a move name. Okay except for Tail whip in specific because of the 2D/3D split, oof moment. I guess disambiguation pages still let my example work since while there would still be two pages to look at the first of them would be short and quick to load because its a disambig and therefore still superior to having Tail whip as full article alongside Raccoon Mario and Tanooki Mario. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 20:59, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::::"Gee, I wonder if that cool thing Tanooki Mario does appears in any other games for any other forms?" This is the more likely question that would be asked. Which is why the move page makes more sense. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:01, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:::::I think my system still lets that person get to the answers reasonably intuitively. Tanooki Mario says it's super duper Raccoon Mario, so navigating to that page seems reasonable if one wants more tail whipping action. From Raccoon Mario they'll hit Tail. The only odd one out is ''Mario Kart'' Super Leaf, which is exclusively covered on Super Leaf, except thanks to Tanooki Mario being playable in ''Mario Kart Tour'' with the Super Leaf as his special skill that hypothetical person should still hit Super Leaf. We could just add a ''Mario Kart'' series "sentence long section with a <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> link" to Raccoon Mario to patch that hole up, and maybe note that giving Tanooki Mario the Super Leaf as a special skill closely reflects the platforming video games, meaning we have all the links the Tail whip article would have without needing to make a Tail whip article.[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:22, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::::::IMO this just sounds like a lot of confounding mental gymnastics to me and just having a page for the move removes most of the leaps of logic and assumptions on what people will and will not know. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:02, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


:In light of that, I think firm guidance is beneficial on a high-level, philosophical matter like this, and that the wiki staff are in the best position to offer those kinds of firm guidelines. That's not to say that there's no room for community input! On the contrary, I think discussions like this are highly beneficial, both to the community at large so that editors can guage one another's opinions and as a way for wiki staff to see that this is an issue under consideration of the wiki, but I do wonder if there could be a more accessible or active public arena for them (like the forum) outside of formal proposals. Proposals necessarily have a time limit, and necessarily are limited to one outcome or the other (though certainly measures can be taken to address the concerns of voters on the opposite side or sides), both of which put pressure on the discussion.
===On the leading "Princess" for Peach/Daisy/Rosalina, and/or lackthereof===
Brace yourselves--this is gonna be a long one.


:All of this is to say, I think TPG has a good point. A discussion like this might benefit from playing out without the constraints of a proposal. And as a personal thought, unrelated to TPG's, seeing as this speaks to those philosophies or organizing and presenting information, I would personally have no objection if the wiki staff were to sit on the points raised in the discussion and to issue a policy ruling based on the outcome of their deliberations. I'm not advocating for that. The staff know better than I do if that's a wise course of action or not, after all! Rather, I only mean that I would personally find that an acceptable resolution as well as resolution by proposal, whatever their decision.
In July of last year, jan Misali created a proposal to [[Talk:Princess Daisy#Move to "Daisy"|remove the leading "Princess" from the article name for "Princess Daisy"]]. This failed 15-18, as people were interested in a proposal to move Peach alongside this. In November of last year, jan Misali created a follow-up proposal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#Move "Princess Peach" and "Princess Daisy" to "Peach" and "Daisy"|do exactly this]], which failed again; among other concerns regarding redirects, most of the support was split between moving both Peach and Daisy to their Princess-less counterparts, and just moving Daisy, leaving the opposition in the lead. Guess third time's the charm.


:All of that said, I do still want to commend PopitTart for bringing the proposal up in the first place. I've said before and I'll say again, I think it was a good effort from an earnest contributor, and the vigorous discussion is has produced is ultimately a positive for putting the wiki's editors on the same page even if there are disagreements. I hope you will continue to contribute to the wiki and that you feel comfortable here! [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]])
The question is simple; do we remove "Princess" from the names of the [[Princess Peach]] and [[Princess Daisy]] articles? Time and time again, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|we've removed or truncated]] [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|full names or particles]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Rename pages with the full Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars title|to more common names]]. However, for whatever reason, the "Princess" particles for Peach and Daisy stick, despite Nintendo being very hit-or-miss about how required these are, ''especially'' for Daisy, whose "Princess, despite never doing anything royal outside of her debut" status has been acknowledged, officially, multiple times.
:I would be open to this idea, if it is indeed a viable option allowed by the rules. The addition of Option 2 was made in response to feedback, but with less thought than it might have needed compared to the original proposal. Doing this could also help quell the worries of solicitation and Discord interference by some, since much more discussion would nessesarily be on-wiki.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:33, December 6, 2024 (EST)


All this discussion about the veracity of the proposal itself, and we honestly still don't know what the plan is for if the second option passes. Like, what, do we ''actually'' rename [[Pump Mario]] to "STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI"? The proposal suggests that some names would be trimmed, but the only example trims just a number; there are no numbers in that mouthful. Where exactly are we intending to draw the line? Do we go as far as to just trim it to "PUMP_MARIO"? Is it really more accurate to just make the name all-caps and include an underscore? How exactly do we intend to make these longer internal names make sense grammaticaly, within the actual article text? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:13, December 6, 2024 (EST)
To recap the cases in favor of these renames for people that didn't read those first two proposals, the case for Daisy in particular is very strong, so we'll start with her. Simply put, Nintendo so rarely calls her by the name of "Princess Daisy" that it's starting to become a surprise when they ''do'' call her that in things like [[:File:Hot Wheels Princess Daisy Character Car Packaging.png|HotWheels character cars]]. To re-iterate a point made in jan Misali's original proposal, the count of times where Daisy is overtly referred to as "Princess Daisy" outside of manuals or other such paratexts can be counted on two hands, and even then, only barely; once in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Print World]]'' (which also erroneously calls Peach "Daisy" at one point), [[Mario Superstar Baseball|the two]] [[Mario Super Sluggers|baseball games]] and ''[[Fortune Street]]'' interchange "Daisy" and "Princess Daisy" in dialogue but all UI uses just "Daisy", ''[[Super Mario Run]]'' being in a similar boat but with in-game descriptions for [[Super Mario Run#Remix 10|Remix 10]] instead of dialogue, and ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]'', where Palutena calls her that. In every other case, including her own debut game, she is generally called "Daisy".
:I belive internal names could be trimmed down, but it would be up to more disccussion. It was suggested earlier that things could be formatted as "<code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code> is the internal name for a form taken on by Mario in the ''Mario & Luigi'' series". --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:33, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::We are not going to "pause" a proposal. If a proposal cannot proceed because it needs to be ironed out more, it should be canceled and go back to a drawing board on a sandbox page pending more discussion. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:26, December 6, 2024 (EST)
::It'd be helpful if the list of projected first-option changes was also in full; the last time derived names was used, it was mostly directionless and led to many conflicting ideas on how to go about it, and it should be the proposer's duty to reassure us. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:55, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::I've started such a list on my [[User:PopitTart|userpage]], currently with just subjects listed in [[:Category:Articles with titles from development data]] as there are a '''''lot''''' of articles in the foreign language category to sift through. The proposed names are sorted into categories based on their varacity.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:44, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::I still intend to abstain from this proposal, but as for your list, [[Dark Nokonoko]], [[Wonder Packun]], and [[Mecha Nokonoko]] feel more like they'd fit in the Shy Guy zone than the categories you placed them in. As with Shy Guys, Koopa Troopa and Piranha Plant variants use both the base species' full names and the shortened "Koopa" and "Piranha" respectively. In particular, the Wonder Packun's similarities to the [[Cloud Piranha]]s should be noted—both are associated with [[Castle Bowser]] and appear exclusively in ''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]''{{'}}s world map as barricades of sorts. On the other hand, Mecha Nokonoko wouldn't overlap with [[Mechakoopa]] if you were to refer to it as "Mecha Koopa Troopa". The other categorizations seem sound to me, though. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 20:24, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::I never clocked "X Piranha" or "X Koopa" as being distinct means of naming, rather a shortening of what the full "X Piranha Plant "X Koopa Troopa" name would have been. But, that is still a very fair pespective that should be considered.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:54, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::::In my opinion, longer names make more sense for all of the tossups except Wonder Packun/Piranha. Packun/Flower and Hey/ho have precedence as the long-short forms. Noko less so, but it can be confused with other Koopas. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:15, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::I mean, that only really works out for the opening of articles. What about when the name appears mid-sentence? We mentioned it in the vote itself, but we can't think of a way to make "They consistently spew water into a small basin, allowing Mario to swallow some and turn into Pump Mario." flow well if Pump Mario is now <code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code>. Like, what, do we say "Allowing mario to swallow some and turn into the form known as <code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code> in the data"? Asinine wouldn't even begin to describe that one... {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 11:03, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::"become this form," I'd say. As long as it doesn't end up like [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Head Honcho Carpaccio|this]], that should be fine. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:34, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::The question is how does another article that isn't primarily about the form refer to it? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:37, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::I would say at the very least <code>STRM_SE_</code> wouldn't be included in the article name, as this is very clearly info to signify that the file is a sound effect, not actually a name for the form itself. {{User:Shy Guy on Wheels/sig}} 11:57, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::Neither is "KUSUGURI". That means "tickle", referring to the [[Tickle]] move. It's not part of the name for the form, so saying that the form is referred to as <code>STRM_SE_PUMP_MARIO_KUSUGURI</code> is just incorrect. It's referred to IN the name, but not AS the name. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 13:16, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::Then what's left? Just <code>PUMP_MARIO</code>? Are we really going to enforce it being all-caps and with an underscore if the second option passes, just in the name of "accuracy"? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:30, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::<s>I was wondering when someone would notice.</s> Looks like "PUMP_MARIO" it is, although I am reminded of this [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|old common-sense proposal]]. If we did something like that, we might even be able to use...well, you know. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:34, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::::At that point, if preserving the original presentation is so important that some names from internal data have to be shown in SCREAMING_SNAKE_CASE, then shouldn't moderately-large-persimmon-enemy's name be rendered in kana as {{fake link|こでかカキボー}}? Otherwise, how is it too speculative to give a name sensible capitalization and, you know, spaces, but not to change it to an entirely different writing system? (Of course, I'm not actually arguing for using Japanese characters in page titles, in case that isn't clear.) [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:31, December 7, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I mean, there's this nifty feature called "redirects"... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:51, December 7, 2024 (EST)
::::::::We should omit underscores for page names for wiki purposes. Underscores are added to filenames solely for programming reasons because reading scripts for filenames can get fucked up if spaces are used rather than underscores. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:22, December 7, 2024 (EST)


The more I think of it, the funnier the idea gets of straight up using filenames to name things on the wiki. I unironically want to see that.<br>
For Daisy, there is also the strange asterisk that is her [[Princess Daisy (film character)|film equivalent]], but given the context of the plot of the film itself--that Daisy is unaware of her own royal status for the bulk of the film, and is simply referred to as just "Daisy" for most of it, we personally think it's fair to move her to "Daisy (film character) and add a Full Name parameter to clarify her "Princess Daisy" title she has towards the end. That being said, [[:File:SMBFilmCard11.jpg|even her own official trading card just calls her Daisy]], and apparently the "Princess Daisy" title only gets dropped on the back of "Sad Goodbyes", which we lack an image for.
{{color|green|<nowiki>></nowiki>be me}}<br>
{{color|green|<nowiki>></nowiki>cheepcheep.gif}}<br>{{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:28, December 7, 2024 (EST)


I have "completed" (it's a simple once-over of the dev data and foreign language cateories) a list of articles that might be affected by option 1 of this proposal passing, and what their new names could be, or what further discussion about them individually may entail. For the sake of not making this proposal even more oversized than it already is, I'll just [[User:PopitTart#Derived Name list|link to where I've written it on my userpage]].--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 22:29, December 7, 2024 (EST)
The case for Princess Peach is less strong, partially thanks to the release of ''[[Princess Peach: Showtime!]]'', a game in 2024 that makes rather overt use of "Princess Peach"; however, it is worth noting that Nintendo still does play rather fast-and-loose with the "Princess" particle for her as well. Most spinoffs will truncate the "Princess" off of her name, as far back as ''[[Mario Kart 64]]'' and even after the release of ''Showtime'', later that same year, ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'' also [[:File:SMPJCSSUnlocked.jpg|truncated the "Princess" off of Peach's name]]. While we acknowledge it's odd to laser in on exactly one game, ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' just calls her "Peach", and that is one of the best-selling games in the entire Mario franchise.


@DesaMatt: The opposition's point (or at least my point) isn't that the wiki is an official source or is trying to be one. I think many people here would be confused and displeased if "Fire Gabon" actually became the official English name. Rather, the fact that we're not an official source means it isn't our job to translate names that official sources have not translated. There's a difference between being an official source and being a source that compiles information from official sources. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:45, December 8, 2024 (EST)
We've seen various arguments against these, and aside from "personal preference for preferring particles", which we obviously can't argue with (at least, not without looking silly), we can't say we understand the majority of them:
:I read their argument as moreso that, what is the meaningful difference between writing "'''Deka Hoppin''' are large [[Hoppycat]]s" (quote directly from the current page) and just calling it "Big Hoppycat"? Both examples require inference of things that haven't officially been stated in English."''Why is it bad to call Fire Spike by that name term when everyone can agree that's what they are but it's not bad to describe anything using words that were never used by Nintendo at all''?"--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 11:31, December 8, 2024 (EST)
*Concerns were risen about removing royalty particles from other article names, such as [[Princess Shokora]] or [[Princess Shroob]] or [[King Bob-omb]] or [[Prince Mush]] (never mind that in his case, it's a stage name and not royalty). In those cases, the characters have ''never'' been referred to without their particles that we could find unless [[You're the Bob-omb|there was already an older name in the first place]], such as "Big Bob-omb" for "King Bob-omb" (it's possible there's remote dialogue or an obscure Manga appearance we don't have on-record, but we're doubtful). These would retain their particles, as per our [[MarioWiki:Naming|Naming policies]] determining that the most common English name is what is used, and in these cases, the particle is included almost 100% of the time. In contrast, Nintendo has been fairly interchangeable with Peach and Daisy's "princess" particles, and in Daisy's case, her particle has only become increasingly rarer as time goes on. If instances were located where the aforementioned characters lacked their particles short of the Big/King Bob-omb example, that would be something worth acknowledging, but in their cases, the particles being excluded is overwhelmingly the exception, not the norm.
::Come to think of it, that whole [[Special:Diff/4407550#Size Experiments: Plan|"''deka''" mess]] still has yet to be sorted out. Regardless, while I like that this now has a more defined structure, I'll touch on my main position a little more. If this wiki is big enough to be a significant point of reference by all sorts ''anyway'' - amateur and industry alike - I'd rather we take the path that results in the least trouble for all parties. More fan-tweaks means more opportunities to accidentally violate CC BY-SA 3.0 (no, I don't think the inverse is nearly as likely when the alternative obfuscates officiality). I firmly believe that direction - and votes like DesaMatt's show that at least it ''is'' seen as a step in another direction - will erode wiki usability and license trust in the long run. The second option is arguably the most immediately satisfactory in that regard, but you know how I felt about that earlier, and I and others are starting to think that dev data would best be reevaluated in another proposal. I speak for myself, not of all the opposition. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:27, December 8, 2024 (EST)
*Concerns have been risen about the [[Peach]] and [[Daisy]] article titles potentially referring to generic subjects; however, as of writing this proposal, both "Peach" and "Daisy" directly lead to their corresponding princesses anyways by means of redirects. Other subjects are instead given a "For <nowiki><x>, see <y></nowiki>" in the Princess' articles introductions. These redirects are already present as-is, and these changes wouldn't change how a search lands.
::My perspective is that page titles and page text are somewhat different matters, where titles are trying to reflect actual official sources as much as possible while page text is trying to explain official sources. We do translate [[Fire Gabon]] to "Fire Spike" in its names in other languages section, because that's us explaining the official name, but "Fire Spike" itself is not an official name that has ever been used, so it shouldn't be the title. Sort of like how we're allowed to comment on [[Podley]]'s resemblance to the Beanish without declaring that he officially is one. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:33, December 8, 2024 (EST)
*For internet traffic, given Peach and Daisy already lead to these articles, we still fail to see how this would impact much, unless we intentionally chose to not leave a redirect after a move; it should go without saying that, if we were to make a move of this magnitude, we would absolutely be leaving a redirect.
::The difference, to me at least, is that "Deka Hoppin" is the enemy's name, and "Big Hoppycat" is not. That's it. This enemy is a big Hoppycat, and I do not think anyone is arguing it is not. Describing it as such is an accurate, literal reading of the game and the enemy's physical design, and it even has the name of its parent species ホッピン (''Hoppin'') in its own Japanese name, which traditionally is a cue that certain enemies are related to one another. I also think it is extremely likely that "Big Hoppycat" will be the name Nintendo themselves publish when they come around to localizing the last few enemies in this game. But that does not change the objective truth that, at this moment, this enemy is not named "Big Hoppycat" anywhere, and so I don't feel comfortable saying that is its name. It has nothing to do with any kind of unique reverence for Nintendo - I don't really care what they do. It has to do with my belief that readers are entitled to the truth in their reference material. My hope for our fan wiki is to provide good, accurate, and reliable information. Saying this enemy's name is "Big Hoppycat" just isn't true, and the arguments I have seen in this thread do not dispute that. Instead, the arguments I have heard in response is that being truthful is not important for a fan wiki about Nintendo games or is less important than accessibility. I agree accessibility is important, but I don't understand why displaying Deka Hoppin or limiting ourselves to the names that have actually been released is harming accessibility. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:01, December 8, 2024 (EST)
*On a meta level, for the "would prefer one, but not the other" angle that was part of the reason the second proposal failed, we have since introduced a poll format to more adequately determine more nuanced situations like this, without risking support being split between two groups and being out-numbered overall.
:::Simply put, the reason it hurts accessibility is because it's giving a foreign name to English readers stripped of its context, since the subjects it should be related to all have English names. Amongst a lineup of [[Bullet Bill]], [[Big Bullet Bill]], [[Bomber Bill]], [[Bull's-Eye Bill]], [[Seeker Bullet Bill]], and many others, its extremely easy to miss the very direct connection [[Deka Chase Killer]] has to them. I didn't even catch that the [[Deka Korobū|bigger Snootle]] and [[Kodeka Maimai|bigger Swirlypod]] already had articles until compiling my name-change list because the connection Nintendo intended those names to have is lost.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:07, December 8, 2024 (EST)
*While this was not mentioned in the original proposals to our awareness, we do acknowledge that some people may be concerned about the costs of labor of changing a bunch of links; however, not only could this trivially be an automated rename, something our proprietor already does fairly regularly with template names, even if this were somehow unworkable, we already have ample tools to manually perform such a change built into MediaWiki itself. We are well-aware of what this wiki's userbase can do when it comes to making these mass-changes, and we think we have a very capable userbase when it comes to deploying a change like this, either automatically or by hand.
::::What we wish was the official name doesn't become the official name, and as I argued way up the page in my vote, variants don't always have to have their relationship immediately obvious from name alone. Amongst a line-up of [[Shy Guy]], [[Spear Guy]], [[Stilt Guy]], [[Woozy Guy]], [[Fly Guy]], [[Boo Guy]], and many others, would you guess that [[Bandit]] is a Shy Gut variant? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:16, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:::::I don't think thats a particuarly good counterpoint, and I point to the Japanese names to explain why. [[Bullet Bill|Killer]], [[Big Bullet Bill|Kyodai Killer]], [[Bomber Bill|Magnum Killer]], [[Bull's-Eye Bill|Search Killer]], [[Seeker Bullet Bill|Chase Killer]], [[Deka Chase Killer]]. Meanwhile, the shy guy names are [[Shy Guy|Heihō]], [[Spear Guy|Yarihō]], [[Stilt Guy|Takeuma Heihō]], [[Woozy Guy|Moonsault Heihō]], [[Fly Guy|Propeller Heihō]], [[Boo Guy|Yūrei Heihō]], and [[Bandit|Borodō]]. Even alongside Japanese names, Borodō is a distinct name, intended by Nintendo, and that is reflected in the localized names. The only reason Deka Chase Killer stands out is because it has been removed from the naming conventions it was intended for ''by the Super Mario Wiki''.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 17:32, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::::::Either way, the point stands that the official name being simply "Bandit" could be confusing to some (as has been argued for the other names), but that doesn't make it not the official name, in the same way Deka Chase Killer not fitting in doesn't make it not official. I feel like it's hard to invoke "intent by Nintendo" for a proposal where the goal is to ignore Nintendo's names. We aren't Nintendo, so we don't know their intent, which is why we should just use the names they provide without changing them to suit what we think they ought to be. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:40, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::::::That also continues to ignore the repeatedly mentioned simple solution of redirects. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:10, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:::::::I don't think saying "just use redirects" is as great of an argument as you think it is because this proposal is not about looking up a subject in the search bar. It is about how it is read within a sentence on an article's page or how it appears in categories, or [[List of enemies|list articles]], or in the infoboxes of related enemies with clearer English names, or in the enemy table for the only game it appears in. It is about how the text is read. Redirects would not meaningfully address any of those issues, which is why they are not part of the proposal at all. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:57, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::::::::That can be mitigated in other ways that don't involve doing what this proposal aims to do. Most lists make the relation self-evident, like templates, list of species, and lists within enemy and game articles. Personally, I always thought the lists of species and enemies looked really similar, so you can model the latter after the former or even outright merge them, for instance. I think it was also suggested that prose can soften without having to alter article names. Mind, this can still be a little obnoxious when you're looking at some categories like the proposer did, but in many web browsers, you can always hover your mouse <small><small><small><small>(oh no my old-fashionedness really is showing)</small></small></small></small> over any name to get the main image and introductory paragraph for a refresher without having to click it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:50, December 9, 2024 (EST)
::::::::The wiki almost always provides a context clue that a subject is a variant of something else, even if the subject is presented with a non-English name. The enemy tables I've seen place these subjects right after their base variant, with an image and a blurb to help readers further identify them (which, contrary to what others will tell you, is the very point of an encyclopedia); the [[List of species]] also puts variants in sub-lists directly following the base species; and I don't think I need to talk about how compact and distilled infoboxes are. The only places where the structure cannot be modified in a way similar to the above are categories, but I expect readers to use these less often than content pages. All in all, the non-English names continue to be a non-issue to those who aren't concerned with linguistic purism. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:32, December 9, 2024 (EST)
::It's bad because "Big Hoppycat" is not what Nintendo ever called it, and it's prioritizing a fan-made name over an official one despite the wiki inherently revolving around official material, reasons given being that "we are an English wiki" (a concerning point of view that undermines the wiki's neutrality just because of a choice of lingua franca), "encyclopedias shouldn't rely on descriptions" (lolwut???), and "this site is not nintendo.com". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:42, December 8, 2024 (EST)


Question related to this proposal for those more familiar with the fine details of the wiki's inner working: What are the current guidelines for naming powered-up characters? Articles like [[Fire Mario]], [[Penguin Mario]], [[Ice Mario]], etc. give names to the forms taken by characters besides Mario when using those powerups. Are these conjectural? If so, do conjectural naming priority rules used for other subject apply? If its found that [[Boomerang Mario|Boomerang Rosalina]] has an official Japanese name but no stated English one, would her form be refered to as ''Boomerang Rozetta''?--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 01:39, December 9, 2024 (EST)
There are also two characters we think are worth acknowledging, one brought up by jan Misali when we shared this proposal's draft with them, and one we noticed ourselves. For jan Misali's part, there's [[Bowser]], or rather, King Bowser... Or rather, how in-frequently Bowser is known as "King Bowser". It's to the point where mentions of "King Koopa" as he appears in the ''DiC'' cartoons severely outnumber the amount of times Bowser is actually called "King Bowser" outright. This is exceedingly non-contentious, and while a [[King Bowser]] redirect has existed since 2006, we can't tell when the last time "King Bowser" was overtly used in dialogue. All we can really say is, having played ''[[Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser]]'' recently, it's not in that, with Bowser usually just being referred to as, well, Bowser, with the occasional uses of "Lord" or other offbeat honorifics instead of "King".
:Simply put, we don’t have a dedicated page for Boomerang Rosalina, only for Boomerang Mario. In fact, at the moment we don’t even have a dedicated page for Kitsune Luigi even though it’s a peculiar form, with its own name (both in English and Japanese) and appearance - pretty different from that of the Tanooki forms. When it comes to naming powerups outside of page names, due to established naming conventions from Nintendo the only relevant part is the “powerup” part, which is what comes before the character’s name. In any case, suspect cases like Giga Cat Plessie are indeed marked as conjectural, but that’s mostly because we aren’t sure it’s a Giga Cat form to begin with.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 03:16, December 9, 2024 (EST)


Here's an example I think completely destroys this proposal's argument: [[Goombud]]. Its Japanese name, and indeed, its purpose and role, have it as a combination of [[Galoomba]] (''Kuribon'') and [[Goombrat]] (''Kakibou''), and indeed its Japanese name is ''Kakibon'' reflecting that. Ahead of release, at least a few people took to calling them "Galoombrats," but lo and behold, their English name ended up being totally different. This is a ''recent example'', too, so not like how [[Clubba]] (''Gabon-hei'')'s English name is completely irrelevant to [[Spike]] (''Gabon'')'s despite their linked Japanese names. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:38, December 10, 2024 (EST)
However, to us, the ''real'' smoking gun for why a move like this would not only make sense, but be perfectly fine for the wiki, has been sitting right underneath our noses the entire time. [[Rosalina]], or should we say Princess Rosalina? Rosalina has been called a Princess from sources dating as far back as 2010 and as recently as 2023. She's commonly colloquially known as a Princess by fans. Heck, [[Princess Rosalina]] is, as of writing this proposal, a valid redirect to her article, and her infobox states her full name is "Princess Rosalina". However, her article has sat at the title of "Rosalina" since its inception back in 2007, with the Princess redirect only being made in 2014. Rosalina is a Featured Article, so her page naturally receives a ''lot'' of traffic and scrutiny, but nobody seems to have questioned if it would be worth moving her article to "Princess Rosalina" to match the other two princesses; and while one could argue that Rosalina is "not much of a princess", that naturally begets the response that neither is Daisy, who keeps the particle anyways. There's not really any reason we can think of why Daisy should keep her particle if Rosalina hasn't ''ever'' held one and it's seemingly never been questioned, and from there, we could understand removing the particle from Peach's name for parity's sake. (Even still, if you really wanted to, we've provided an option to, in addition for what to do to the "Princess" particles in Peach & Daisy's names, if we should add one to Rosalina's name, or keep it absent. We don't really intend to include something like this for "King Bowser" as, while "Princess Rosalina" at least has a plurality number of cases we could find of that name being used, we could literally only find one "King Bowser", in [[Nintendo Comics System]].)
:A portmantau is given as an example in the original proposal through [[Baboom]], whose japanese name is a portmantau of hanabi (fireworks) and Bomuhei ([[Bob-omb]]). It, Kakibon, and any other subject whose name isn't <code>[unique trait][space][subject]</code> would not be subject to the changes made by this propsal.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 15:46, December 10, 2024 (EST)
::It's proof enough that this proposal is building off a false premise, though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:52, December 10, 2024 (EST)
:::It feels like this argument stems from a misunderstanding of what the proposal's premise is to begin with. The goal as I understand it is to use derived English names in cases where the official name can be straightforwardly translated, for the sake of accessibility, while still making clear that those derivations are not actually official. Since PopitTart already clarified the proposal's stance on other kinds of names, I struggle to understand what argument is left from bringing up Goombud/Kakibon to begin with. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 12:40, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::It shows that "straightforward" is a false premise. Just like with Clubba or Pyro Guy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:24, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::Putting aside that "Galoombrat" isn't really a "straightforward" translation in the same way... sure, it's subjective, but that's why the proposal suggests implementing the names on a case-by-case basis. And even if a name turns out to be wrong later, it can simply be moved to the right one — again, it's not as if derived names will be treated with the same importance as official ones. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 17:53, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::I think you're overselling the difference in importance, here. It's going to amount to a template at the top of the article. Everywhere else on the wiki — navboxes, article text on other articles, everything — is going to treat a name we made up as if it ''is'' official. If you don't click on the article and check the top, it'll be impossible to tell. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:27, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::How does this differ from the wiki's current use of fully conjectural names? --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:31, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::Fully conjectural names are supposed to be simple. That's why stuff like the conjecturally-named ''Virtual Boy Wario Land'' enemies were renamed a while back to not sound less like somebody's idea of official (ie. many of them had hyphen stylizations like in the manual). In a sense, this will do the ''opposite'' of that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:48, December 12, 2024 (EST)
::::::Because for conjectural names, no other name exists. In these situations, we already ''have'' a name we can call them. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:03, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::For whatever it's worth, a suggestion has been offered on the Discord server to extend conjectural name formatting guidelines to derived names as well, using [[Template:Hover|hoverable text]]. That, I think, would solve any problems there, though I don't know if that will need to be a separate proposal after this one passes. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 18:46, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The conjecture template is not universally used whenever an article with a conjectural title is linked to. In fact, I'm fairly certain the ''only'' places they're used consistently is for glitches on the pages covering them, and on the tables on game articles. So using a similar template in the same way would fix little of the potential problems. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:03, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Hoverable text is far from ideal because it does not adapt well to smart devices. On those, the way you can interact as an end user with text marked as hoverable is to tap on it, which replaces the text outright with the note that would show up beside on PC. Try {{hover|this|drinking water as much as you can on a warm day}}. The problem arises when you make hoverable text out of linked text: how are you supposed to interact with {{hover|[[History of Bowser|this]]|a Mario Wiki page}} on mobile without loading up a new page? Or is mobile accessibility not worth pursuing? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:05, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::These suggestions isn't set in stone, anyway, and I think there are a number of solutions that could be considered for this (footnotes, for instance). That might need to be hashed out after this proposal is passed, however. [[User:Reese Rivers|Reese Rivers]] ([[User talk:Reese Rivers|talk]]) 19:16, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::This is a problem that goes beyond the scope of this proposal. Ideally, all unofficial names, conjectural ''or'' derived, would have an easy-to-access note stating as such. If [[Big Run Run Packun|Big Trottin' Piranha Plant]] is easy to mistake as official, then the same goes for [[Gold Big Piranha Plant]].--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 19:23, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::Replying to both of y'all here — I don't think an issue of implementation as major as this one can just be shrugged off and "saved for later". That's an indefinite period of time where links to "derived names" indistinguishable from real ones are going to plague the wiki, with no plan to fix it that can take mobile users into account. I recognize that the proposal is likely to pass anyway, but I don't think that's an excuse to just sweep the problem under the rug. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:50, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::PorpleMontage has recently updated [[Template:Conjectural]] and created [[Template:Derived]] which can apply a hovertext note to a name when its in plaintext, and add a supserscript note when the name is a link. Would this be an effective option?--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:13, December 11, 2024 (EST)
:::::::::At that point, why not just leave the enemy's name intact? Footnotes? Why all these convoluted ways to tell readers that "hey, just letting you know this is a name we made up even though the enemy has an official name. Just a heads-up, oki? Feel the warmth of ''a c c e s s i b i l i t y.''--when the altnernative is both much simpler to manage, eludes all these lengthy discussions on the "right" manner to name subjects, and is ultimately more accurate to the source material? ''Why try to fix a problem that literally does not exist, only to bring about multiple problems in the process??'' {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:39, December 11, 2024 (EST)
::::::::::I'm sorry, but I really am not sure what you're trying to say with this reply. Conjectural names specifically exist ''because'' there is no official name, so a solution for this is nessesary regardless of how it relates to derived names.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:13, December 11, 2024 (EST)


===Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations===
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}
{{early notice|December 16}}
Based on [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/46#Split_all_remaining_courts.2Fboards_based_on_recurring_places_from_their_parent_articles|this proposal]].


Location articles for RPGs have a unique issue in that there's a lot of data that needs to be catalogued. Enemy encounters, item locations, area maps. Normally this is not much of an issue, unless the location reappears in several games, where it becomes a VERY big organization problem. The game's data is split across two separate locations and bundled with the information for other several games, making it a pain to extract useful info. [[Toad Town]], [[Bowser's Castle]] and [[Peach's Castle]] are the greatest offenders here, being way more unwieldy to navigate than other comparable RPG areas such as [[Beanbean Castle Town]] or [[Palace of Shadow]]. With the recent return of the Mario & Luigi series, this issue is only going to become worse unless something is done about it.
====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Peach?====
'''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT


This proposal aims to treat all of these castles and towns and islands as their own location, in the same way we split ''Super Mario'' levels, race tracks and sports courts. The main page would still link to it in its History section.  
;Yes Princess (status quo)
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per past me: "I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. [...] Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it." Considering Nintendo used her full name in a game title last year, this would be a really odd time to do it, and it sheds some light on how awkward it is putting so much focus squabbling over the specifics of character select screens and the like, IMO. I don't see a consistency issue with Daisy regardless of what happens with her, they weren't designed to be perfect analogues to each other and are used in different contexts, which also informs Nintendo's usage of their full titles.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Waluigi Time, past and present.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Much like Daisy, "princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Peach, potentially because they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts where you play as her, or they want to be conservative with text on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Peach" erroneous, archaic, unused, or inappropriate for the title of an article. This is an even stronger case for Peach because she shows up more often in non-playable appearances, where she is typically called "Princess Peach," and they represent the bulk of her history. It is the name used in most instruction booklets, toys, and even in-game. It is not the end of the world for her article to simply go by "Peach," but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining that. "Peach" is more so a shorter derivative of "Princess Peach" than "Bowser" ever was of "King Bowser" or anything like that (and ''certainly'' more so than "Princess Rosalina" is for "Rosalina.") You can probably count the number of sources that prefer using that name for him on one hand, unlike Peach.
#{{User|Rykitu}} [[Princess Toadstool's Castle Run|All]] [[Super Princess Peach|5]] [[Parasol Fall|Princess]] [[Peach's Puzzle|Peach]] [[Princess Peach: Showtime!|games]] have "Princess" before "Peach" (with the exception of Peach's Puzzle and Parasol Fall, unless you count it's full title being Super Princess Peach — Parasol Fall). It is also used way too commonly by Nintendo so I think it should stay the way it is.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Waluigi Time and Nintendo101
#{{User|SGoW}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} While I can understand the desire for consistency with the other two princesses, Princess Peach is clearly her full name, being used in the titles of games as well as regularly in various bits of dialogue and paratext. It's true that she's usually just Peach in a character select screen, but I don't think this defines how she is overall perceived... in my subjective experience, she would usually be known by the average person aware of Mario as Princess Peach.


The question is, what counts as a major appearance? I'd say a major appearance is any appearance that warrants a Profiles and statistics section. That means Bowser's Castle in TTYD or Mario's house and Peach's Castle in M&LSS would not get split.
;No Princess
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. While we think the arguments for keeping Peach's particle are the strongest, namely since we have an [[Princess Peach: Showtime!|entire game from 2024 with the particle in the name]], we do think if we remove this from Daisy, we should naturally remove this from Peach for the sake of parity.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Abolish the monarchy.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} "Princess" is not part of the name, it's just a title and not as integral to Peach's identity as, for example, Dr. Mario.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} It's just "Peach" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all. And the use of "Peach" in character select screens is an intentional choice, not due to character constraints, as shown by the existance of names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)".
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all. I'm still not a fan of using abridged names—especially for crossover characters like [[Fox]], [[Sonic]], etc.—but if we want to be consistent about it, something's gotta give.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} per all
#{{User|PopitTart}} I was initially hesitant because of the existence of ''Princess Peach Showtime'', but I was quickly swayed by looking at [https://www.nintendo.com/us/store/products/princess-peach-showtime-switch/ the game's online store page], which displays the simple "Peach" name no less than a dozen times.


By my count, these pages would need to be created. It might seem like a big list, but most of it would just be copying over what is already in the base articles.
====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Daisy?====
* [[Bowser's Castle]]:
{{Early notice|option=yes|March 26, 2025}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Keep (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
'''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Paper Mario'')}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Paper Mario: The Origami King'')}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'')}}
** {{Fake link|Baby Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
** {{Fake link|Bowser Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')}} (potentially merged with [[Fawful Theater]], per Pseudo)
** {{Fake link|Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Brothership'')}} (potentially merged with [[Wayaway Island]], per Technetium)
* [[Peach's Castle]]:
** {{Fake link|Mushroom Castle (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Paper Mario'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam'')}}
** {{Fake link|Peach's Castle (''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle'')}} (I'm not familiar enough with the game to be 100% sure if it's warranted. Input is welcome.)
* [[Toad Town]]:
** {{Fake link|Mushroom Kingdom (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Paper Mario'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Paper Mario: The Origami King'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
** {{Fake link|Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')}}
* [[Yoshi's Island (location)|Yoshi's Island]]:
** {{Fake link|Yo'ster Isle (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
** {{Fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}


Additionally, there are some grey areas that are worth considering separately.
;Yes Princess (status quo)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} In my view, "Princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Daisy, which happen to represent the bulk of her appearances. Perhaps they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts, or they want to be conservative with space on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Daisy" erroneous, archaic, or unused. It is the name used in ''Super Mario Land'', the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'', and licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy, where she is called "Princess Daisy." It is not the end of the world for her name to go by something else, but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining the status quo.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Nintendo101
#{{User|Pseudo}} Even if she is to be referred to as Daisy most of the time, Princess Daisy is still clearly her "proper" name in my view. This falls into a similar category to my views on the Peach situation (or Princess Peach, as the case may be); even though it's less supported by in-game usage and the like, this is still the main name that she is known by.


* [[Star Hill]]: This one's a unique situation, seeing as it's a location that has only appeared in RPGs, and has only shown up in a major capacity. Splitting all three would leave us with no "main" article for the location itself.
;No Princess
** {{Fake link|Star Hill (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. To be honest, this has never been a contest for us; as far back as flavor text in ''[[Mario Party 9]]'', Nintendo has acknowledged the weird lack of Damsel-in-distress-ness to Daisy's character, and the usage of "Daisy" in lieu of "Princess Daisy" is as old as ''[[Super Mario Land]]'' itself. That Daisy's royalty is bordering on in-name only post-''Land'' is practically a defining trait of hers.
** {{Fake link|Shooting Star Summit (''Paper Mario'')}}
#{{User|Hewer}} Per the trilogy of proposals, this is the name that is almost always used for this major character and it is bizarre that we aren't reflecting that. This should've happened long ago, hopefully this new poll format will finally allow it to. I think I'm neutral regarding whether to move Peach, since it's much less immediately obvious which of her two names is most commonly used.
** {{Fake link|Star Hill (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')}}
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per last times.
* [[Mario Bros.' House]]: This only BARELY counts as a major appearance. The amount of stuff listed in the Profiles and statistics section can be counted on one hand. Nontheless, it's included here for completion.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
** {{Fake link|Mario's Pad (''Super Mario RPG'')}}
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Since I'm supportive of "Princess" being removed from Peach's article title, the same would apply to Daisy, who has made fewer appearances, including with the "Princess" title.
** {{Fake link|Mario's House (''Paper Mario'')}}
#{{user|Cadrega86}} Per all three past proposals.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Forgive the copy-paste job, but: it's just "Daisy" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all the points made on past proposals. I feel nothing more needs to be added.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} per all.
#{{User|PopitTart}} Hi, She's Daisy!


These are all the examples I could find, but suggestions are very welcome. I'm also not completely sure about the names each article should have.
====Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Rosalina?====
{{Early notice|option=yes|March 26, 2025}}
'''Deadline''': April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT


'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
;Yes Princess
'''Deadline''': December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Split locations in only the first list====
;No Princess (status quo)
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} Voting for this currently, and I'll add a second choice after some conversation on the second list happens.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We hope we've made it apparent that we think adding the particle to Rosalina's article is very silly indeed, especially decades after the fact, when Rosalina has obtained a featured article without the particle, and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Strong support for this as it would make navigating and maintaining the relevant sections of these articles ''much'' easier; it’s also in-line with how we handle appearances of locations like Bowser's Castle in platformers already (see [[World 8-Bowser's Castle (Super Mario Bros. 3)]] et al). Star Hill seems fine to me as-is as an RPG-exclusive location with less unique to say about it in terms of its individual appearances, as does Mario's House since it is typically a fairly minor location in its appearances; I think that it's OK to handle these things on a case-by-case basis.
#{{User|Hewer}} She's barely ever called that.
#{{User|Zootalo}} Per all.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Queen it up.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Articles are getting really big and this is probably best for organisation purposes.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Unlike the other two, there is no substantial media that refers to Rosalina as "Princess Rosalina." It is presented only in larger descriptive material on Rosalina, and even then, only occassionally.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} If anything, cases where Princess Rosalina is used are the clear outlier.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} While we would like it more if the [[Neo Bowser Castle]]s were included, this ''is'' a step in the right direction and one we'd like to see.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - She's clearly a queen, just sometimes lumped as one of "the princesses" for convenience.
#{{User|Tails777}} I can see merit with this, organization being the big one. Plus the whole Neo Bowser Castle thing does add to being a good point.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal. It's unclear if Rosalina is even really a princess in the first place.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} I don't think I ever recall it being used.
#{{User|Exiled.Serenity}} The current setup seems a bit inconsistent. It's especially strange that the boss fight from Bowser's Inside Story doesn't have its own page.
#{{user|Cadrega86}} Per all.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{user|Ahemtoday}} Princess of ''what'', by the way? Princess of space? Can you ''be'' the princess of space?
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Star Hill should probably have its own proposal like it and Neo Bowser's Castle have had in the past, though it stands to reason that these listed articles are big enough to split in a way similar to histories and galleries.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} princess of [[:File:TAoSMO_Rosalina_Concept_Art.jpg|acoustic rock]], obviously.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} This has always bugged me! Articles like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle can be such a pain to navigate and they tend to get less coverage than unique locations. I also advocate for splitting the Neo Bowser Castles because if they had went with any other name they'd be separate (it's just that Paper Jam isn't particularly known for its originality).
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. Her backstory implies she was one, and she carries the appearance of one, but it is certainly not one of her defining characteristics.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} She's straight-up never referred to this way except in supplementary material like websites, not even the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' manual calls her Princess Rosalina. This is pretty clear cut to me.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} In Chapter 7 of [[Rosalina's Story]], there is a castle in the background that is implied to be Rosalina's house. Quote Rosalina, "I want to go back to my house by the hill!" The only visible "house" by the hill is the castle. So it's likely that she was born to royalty on her home planet. That said, Daisy has no princess particle, so Rosalina shouldn't either just going off precedence.


====Split locations in the first list, split Star Hills, do not split Mario's Houses====
====Comments (Princess Particle Party!)====
#{{User|Pseudo}} Also voting for this; not sure what I'd consider my first or second vote currently, with further consideration. Splitting Star Hill as well would probably aid with navigability at least a bit, though I still think that splitting Mario's House would accomplish little.
Should be of note that Palutena's Guidance [https://youtu.be/Ls0qNcpAn1E?t=53 is not the ''only'' part in Ultimate] in which Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" (obviously this also applies to Peach). {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:23, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
:I can't track down the article (iirc, it was translated by SourceGaming), Masahiro Sakurai prefers dropping royal monikers in ''Smash Bros.'' games. If I recall correctly, it is to make the character more familial to the player and conserve textual space on the character selection screen. King Dedede is only called "Dedede" in the Japanese releases of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' games. That does not mean "King Dedede" is not a more complete rendering of his name. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 14:44, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
::King K. Rool is called that in Smash, so it's clearly case-by-case (and I thought the "saving space on the character select screen" argument was debunked last time by [[List of drivers in Mario Kart Tour|Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)]]). Anyway, why should a "complete" name automatically be more desirable than the name that is actually used in pretty much every appearance of the character? As was mentioned in the proposal, we've established in cases like the Koopalings that the longest name doesn't have to be the name we use. What makes Daisy different? (Honestly, "Princess Daisy" probably has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:01, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
:::{{@|Hewer}} I was referring to the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series and the people involved in the decisions for that series. None of them made ''Mario Kart Tour'', a more contemporaneous game. Peach has been playable in spinoffs since the 1990s and Daisy has been since 2000, where trends like this would be established on hardware more limited, and by people who may have different views on how to render their characters' name on selection screens. In ''Melee'', for example, a game with Peach, they call Captain Falcon "C. Falcon" on the [[:File:CharacterSelect-SSBMelee.png|selection screen]]. They probably could have rendered his name in full like they did for the Ice Climbers, but they didn't. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:15, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
::::I was replying to your vote on Daisy as well as your comment, sorry if that wasn't clear. Either way, I don't really understand the point you're making here. My point stands that Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer) is in the same game as just Daisy. Captain Falcon is in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate with just Daisy. Can you name any games that call her "Princess Daisy" on a select screen (or other similarly prominent context besides "random line of dialogue", for that matter)? I'm not aware of any. Surely if all the different people working on different games came to the same conclusion that it should be Daisy rather than Princess Daisy, that's ''more'' reason for us to move it? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:32, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
:::{{@|Hewer}} In regards to "King K. Rool" - that's probably because every single language literally calls him that (at least in-game). In contrast, the reason Peach, Bowser and Dedede aren't Princess Peach, King Bowser and (JP-set) King Dedede is likely because they're literally ''Peach-hime'', ''Daimaō Koopa'' and ''Dedede-daiō'', respectively. Yes, these are simplified translations, but the nuance is different. The titles are probably getting mostly phased out because Nintendo likes it when the names of their major characters don't have to change much between regions. For example, [https://shmuplations.com/starfoxadventures/ one interview] where Takaya Imamura regretted not unifying ''Star Fox''{{'}}s Andorf as "Andross" from the start. This was also done with the big Legendary Pokémon, as I recall, etc. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 17:10, March 19, 2025 (EDT)


====Split locations in both lists====
How is Rosalina a queen, exactly? I don't think that's ever been stated anywhere, and Peach is still Princess even though she explicitly rules the Mushroom Kingdom, so Rosalina ruling something wouldn't make her Queen necessarily. Speaking of, even if she's not technically ruling anything now, she's still a princess by birth (backstory and Baby Rosalina's design), and I don't think titles become null and void like that / "oh it's been (blank) years I guess I'm not a princess anymore". [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:03, March 19, 2025 (EDT)


====Do not split any of these locations====
@Pseudo: In what way is Princess Daisy "the main name that she is known by"? It certainly isn't officially, and in my experience it isn't even the more used name by fans either. And since Nintendo101 didn't really answer this question: why does a name being the "full name" mean it should automatically take priority? It didn't with [[Talk:Conker#Rename to Conker|Conker the Squirrel]], [[Talk:Bobbery#Changing Admiral Bobbery to just Bobbery|Admiral Bobbery]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles|Sonic the Hedgehog]], [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|Professor Elvin Gadd]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Move animal names from the Donkey Kong Country series to just their normal names|Rambi the Rhino]], [[Colored Pencils|Colored Pencils, The Missile Maestro]], [[Talk:Baby DK#Move to Baby DK|Baby Donkey Kong]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2|Wendy O. Koopa]], [[Talk:Grodus#Move to Grodus|Sir Grodus]], [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Move Super Princess Peach enemies to their full names|Glad Red Paratroopa]], [[Talk:TEC#Move to TEC|TEC-XX]], and indeed, Princess Rosalina. So why is Princess Daisy different? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:57, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
:I do agree with the argument, but I do want to just correct the mention of Glad Red Paratroopa. ''Super Princess Peach'' enemies don't actually ever show longer names than the abbreviated ones. the "full" names suggested by that proposal are ''technically'' conjectural.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 05:30, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
::Fair enough. That's one example down, eleven more to go. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:33, March 20, 2025 (EDT)


====Comments on splits====
===Merge the "did not reach consensus" and "tied" proposal outcomes on the archives===
I'm wondering something about Bowser's Castle in Brothership specifically. It’s located on [[Wayaway Island]], which has its own page. Assuming this proposal passes, should we merge the castle into the Wayaway Island page, or make a new one as titled in the proposal? [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 13:46, December 8, 2024 (EST)
This came up in the comments at the tail end of my poll proposal archive proposal. A grand total of four proposals have "tied" and are therefore represented by brown. Notably, nobody decided [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/73#Create_a_template_to_direct_the_user_to_a_game_section_on_the_corresponding_List_of_profiles_and_statistics_page|'''this''' proposal]] would be brown even though, by any reasonable definition of "tie", it is one. I take this as a sign that this distinction isn't really... suiting the reality of the proposal page. After all, what makes a tie so different that it needs its own color, when it's just a particular arrangement that a failure of consensus can land on?


If we do this, could we ''please'' split the [[Neo Bowser's Castle]]s too? Because like. One of those is a wholly unique castle, and the other is literally just Paper Jam's incarnation of [[Bowser's Castle]], after having been lifted up into the sky on a purple drone doohickey. It is literally just the exact same castle aside from that, and yet it has its information put into the same article as Dream Team's Neo Bowser's Castle, just because they share a name. This has been bugging us ever since we noticed it, and we feel like this proposal could be a good time to finally split those two up. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:36, December 8, 2024 (EST)
By the way, one color has to win out in the merge, and my view is: '''it will be brown'''. This is going to sound hugely pedantic, but I don't think white is good for a proposal archive color, at least not one with this meaning. Outside of the new dark mode, it looks like it doesn't ''have'' a background. That makes it look like some state inherently separate from the others, or like some kind of blank state with no meaning, or like it's related to what gray means. This isn't any of those; it's a pretty normal fate for a proposal to meet. Brown is more in line with the look of the others, and it looking close to "no quorum" better conveys its similar meaning. (Arguably you could merge in "no quorum", too. I'm not here to make that argument <s>but if I was, we should obviously use orange</s>.) Therefore, I say we're merging them to brown.
:I would be in support of this, including adding it to the current proposal. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 14:40, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::The Neo Bowser Castles were merged from another proposal. By the way, Peach's Castle in ''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom'' Battle is like in ''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' and ''Super Mario 64'', the main hub of the game. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 14:43, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:::Honestly, one of the main reasons why the Neo Bowser Castles remain merged is largely because of places like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle. If those started getting split by game, Neo Bowser Castle would become more reasonable to split as well. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::::yeah, i don't feel comfortable adding Neo here bc i feel it's a slightly different case, since it's not exactly a recurring location. there's definitely room for using this proposal as precedent for it if it passes, though. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}


For what it's worth, [[Fawful Theater]], a location within Bowser's Castle, which takes up most of the castle in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]]'', already has its own article, so it may be prudent to merge Fawful Theater with the to-be-split {{fake link|Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)}} article if the proposal passes. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 15:03, December 8, 2024 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
:There's also the matter of the boss fight against Bowser's Castle. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:36, December 8, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': April 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT
::that presumes BIS Bowser Castle getting split, though {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}
 
If this passes, can we split {{fake link|Yoshi's Island (''Super Mario World'')}} from [[Yoshi's Island (location)]] in a similar way as well? I just think it's weird that this is the ''only'' platformer world (to my knowledge) that doesn't have its own article, and that kinda data is instead lumped on a page for the general location. By that logic, [[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey)]] should be merged with either [[Mushroom Kingdom]] or [[Peach's Castle]] as well. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:01, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:the original draft for this proposal covered SM64 and SMO's Peach's Castles before i decided to scale it down to just the RPGs, actually! hopefully this serves as precedent to split both those and yoshi's island. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}
::I would definitely be in support of these splits as well, though I can understand wanting to keep the proposal focused. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 10:39, December 9, 2024 (EST)
::I'd support ''Super Mario 64'' Mushroom Castle. I don't remember how big or notable the ''Super Mario Odyssey'' one was. Yoshi's Island had its own discussion and proposal at one point that should be reviewed. The individual ''Super Mario World'' articles ''do'' do their job... [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:11, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:::Technically, Peach's Castle from Odyssey is already split from the main Peach's Castle article, as it's being integrated into the aforementioned [[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey)]] article. In the game, Peach's Castle is treated as the Mushroom Kingdom's greater location, aka the main explorable world from that kingdom, in the same way how Tostarena is treated as the [[Sand Kingdom]]'s greater location/explorable world and how New Donk City is treated as that to the [[Metro Kingdom]]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:38, December 9, 2024 (EST)
 
Recently, I changed the [[Yoshi Sphinx]] article from solely covering its Sticker Star appearance to covering all of its appearances throughout the series, which sparked a bit of discussion about splitting it. I can't say this particular split excites me, given how minor every other appearance of it is, but I wanted it to bring it up here since it's related — do y'all think that should be split as well? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:32, December 8, 2024 (EST)
:The Yoshi Sphinx is only really a "location" in Sticker Star and is just kind of a recurring motif in other games, so we feel like a split in that context is largely unnecessary. I mean, what, are we meant to make an article called {{Fake link|Yoshi Sphinx (Super Mario 64 DS)}} which just says "The Yoshi Sphinx (Super Mario 64 DS) appears in the interface of the [[Puzzle Panel]] and [[Puzzle Panic]] minigames. It re-appears in [[New Super Mario Bros. DS]], also in the Puzzle Panel minigame."? That seems excessive. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:14, December 8, 2024 (EST)
::the proposal says "major RPG appearances of reocurring locations", not "interface decorations of platformer minigames", so i assume Ahemtoday means splitting {{Fake link|Yoshi Sphinx (''Paper Mario Sticker Star'')}}. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}
:I would prefer the Yoshi Sphinx article remained as is now. The other recurring sphinxes are so minor that the article already has a decent focus on the ''Paper Mario'' appearance. (Great article, by the way!) {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 22:05, December 8, 2024 (EST)
 
Do Bowser's Keep, Mario's Pad, Yo'ster Isle, Shooting Star Summit, and Baby Bowser's Castle need identifiers? I'm pretty sure those names are localized entirely within their games and related media. Also, I believe "Toad Town (''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'')" should be "Toadtown Square" and "Bowser's Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')" should be "Bowser Castle (''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story'')". There could be others missed. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:50, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:the identifiers are mostly to let people know which game each town or castle is from, they can def be removed for the actual articles. thanks for the naming tips, however! {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}}16:05, December 9, 2024 (EST)
 
I honestly wouldn't want the ''Bowser's Inside Story'' Bowser's Castle article to be titled as "Fawful Theater". The game itself labels it as "Bowser's Castle" and the theater is only the smaller upper portion of the castle whereas the larger basement has nothing to do with the theater. I'd do it the other way around: either merge Fawful Theater with "Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)" or keep Fawful Theater as its own article. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 20:05, December 9, 2024 (EST)
 
Just to be clear, these will continue to have main-article templates on the origin's article and ''not'' be treated as a distinct subject, correct? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:08, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:The proposal says that "the main page would still link to it in its History section", so I think so. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 22:20, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:That's the impression I had. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:48, December 12, 2024 (EST)
 
===Broaden the scope of the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations===
With the [[Template talk:Unreferenced#Delete or be more specific|previous proposal]] having passed with being more specific as the most voted, I've come up with a proposal about the possibility to make the {{tem|rewrite}}, {{tem|rewrite-expand}}, and {{tem|rewrite-remove}} templates more specific. As you can see, these templates are missing some smaller text. As such, I am just wondering if there is a possibility to have the smaller text added to the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki>, <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki>, and <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> templates.
 
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
</div>
----
However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
</div>
----
And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
----
Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s):{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
----
That will be a perfect idea to make the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations as more specific as the {{tem|media missing}} and {{tem|unreferenced}} templates. That way, we'll be able to add smaller text to the remaining [[:Category:Notice templates|notice templates]] in the future.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Deadline''': December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Altendo}} As far as I can tell, the proposal that was linked added parameters that allowed what was supposed to be referenced to be referenced. This one simply adds a subtitle to the bottom of each template. "Be more specific" does not mean saying general information and helpful links, but rather exactly what needs to be done; in terms of that, the existing templates not only all already have parameters, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|filling them out is enforced]]. As [[User:Nightwicked Bowser|Nightwicked Bowser]] said, "Be more specific - Similar to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|this proposal]], what exactly needs references must be specified in the template when putting it in the article. A parameter for this will still need to be added." This only adds a subtitle and does not make this "more specific". As for the changes, this is actually harmful in some way, as the <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> tag will be added to the subtitle, rather than the main body, which could make it more confusing in my opinion. Feel free to update this and add in what "more specific" actually means, or just change this to "add subtitles" and change the location of <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> to the main body, but until then, my vote is staying here.


====Comments====
====Comments====
Here's how I would fix some things:
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
</div>
----
However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>
</pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
</div>
----
And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
</pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
----
Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed''' {{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reasons:{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
</pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s):<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
This should fix some things, and I also recommend you change the title or at least context of this proposal. If so, then I might change my vote. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 19:58, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:I {{plain link|https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&diff=prev&oldid=4457576|fixed this problem}} for you. How does it look? {{User:GuntherBayBeee/sig}} 09:40, December 10, 2024 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 06:34, March 20, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Thursday, March 20th, 10:33 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
  2. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  3. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."

Poll proposal formatting

As an alternative to the basic proposal format, users may choose to create a poll proposal when one larger issue can be broken down into multiple sub-issues that can be resolved independently of each other. In a poll proposal, each option is essentially its own mini-proposal with a deadline and Support/Oppose subheadings. The rules above apply to each option as if it were a its a two-option proposal: users may vote Support or Oppose on any number of options they wish, and individual options may close early or be extended separately from the rest. If an option fails to achieve quorum or reach a consensus after three extensions, then the status quo wins for that option by default. If all options fail, then nothing will be done.

To create a poll proposal, copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the option deadlines will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}

====[option title (e.g. Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 3)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

For the purposes of the ongoing proposals list, a poll proposal's deadline is the latest deadline of any ongoing option(s). A poll proposal is archived after all of its options have settled, and it is listed as one single proposal in the archive. It is considered to have "passed" if one or more options were approved by voters (resulting in a change from the status quo), and it is considered to have "failed" if all options were rejected by voters and no change in the status quo was made.

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{ongoing TPP}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles and Super Mario Run.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Split Mario & Luigi badges and remaining accessories, Camwoodstock (ended February 1, 2025)
Merge Chef Torte and Apprentice (Torte), Camwoodstock (ended February 3, 2025)
Merge intro/outro sections, rename Gameplay section to "Overview" for Mario Party minigame articles, ToxBoxity64 (ended March 1, 2025)
Implement crossover articles, Nintendo101 (ended March 17, 2025)
Add headings for first topics of talk pages that lack one, Jdtendo (ended March 17, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Merge Wiggler Family to Dimble Wood, Camwoodstock (ended January 11, 2025)
Create a catch-all Poltergust article, Blinker (ended January 21, 2025)
Give the Cluck-A-Pop Prizes articles, Camwoodstock (ended January 31, 2025)
Reverse the proposal to trim White Shy Guy, Waluigi Time (ended February 8, 2025)
Split Animal Crossing (game), Kaptain Skurvy (ended February 12, 2025)
Split the modes in the Battles page, Mario (ended February 15, 2025)
Count ongoing serialized comics for latest appearances, Rykitu (ended March 2, 2025)
Split Toad wearing headphones off from Jammin' Toad, PrincessPeachFan (ended March 7, 2025)
Split Super Mario Maker helmets from Buzzy Shell and Spiny Shell (red), PopitTart (ended March 12, 2025)
Remove information on Super Mario Maker series big Para-Beetles from Heavy Para-Beetle, Blinker (ended March 18, 2025)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Merge moves exclusive to forms with their respective forms, leaving main article links if they are part of another article. Also replace the Fly article with a list.

Mario’s many, many forms have granted him oh so many forms. These forms grant him many new moves, like swinging a cape, jumping in the air, or even a slew of Link’s moves! Now, how many of these have articles? (Excluding Tail whip)

If you guessed zero, +/- Tail whip, you’re right. This makes sense: If I go to an article on a form, then I want to see all of that form’s nuances. What good is it to have some parts of the benefits conferred by a power-up on a separate page? Imagine if Builder Mario had an article dedicated to swinging its hammer, a core portion of the abilities Builder Mario grants. Imagine if Mole Yoshi had an entire article dedicated to its ability to dig, despite that being the sole move it can do with a button press and digging being its entire point of existing. Imagine if operating the Super Pickax had an entire article separate from the Super Pickax, even though the player doesn’t even have the choice to hold a Super Pickax without using it. (Yes, the act of using a Super Pickax has a name!)

But we’re already doing this, just under the veneer of putting it under existing articles. These articles, for example:

I think this is a flawed line of thinking. For a much as shell dashing and Drill Spinning are moves that can be used by specific forms, they are also benefits conferred by specific forms and power-ups. We should be focusing efforts to improve coverage for such moves on the page for the power-up, as someone who wants to learn everything Shell Mario can do probably shouldn’t have to also check shell dash. Shell Mario should say that shell dashing enemies doesn’t start a point chain. Shell Mario should say if how many hits it takes to defeat a boss with the shell dash. Shell Mario should mention the unique movement opportunities/restrictions of the shell dash compared to base Mario. There shouldn’t be two different articles going into technical detail on a single topic if we can help it, not least because of the potential of a correction to one article not being applied to the other. And if we can only have one super detailed article, then it ought to be the form.

Imagine if we extended the current situation to other named moves of forms? Would Mega Yoshi be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Tail Swipe, on the basis of it having the technical detail of stalling Yoshi’s fall? Even though one needs to know how to Tail Swipe to beat all Mega Yoshi areas? Would Penguin Mario be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Belly Slide? Which is main unique thing about it, given Ice Balls are from Ice Mario and good swimming is from Frog Mario? If we gave the field form of Luiginary Ball a page, would it be.a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Ball Hammer? Again, something necessary to complete the ball's tutorial area?

As such, this proposal aims to just move all the technical details of moves that can only be performed by power-up forms to the form’s page. The section remains, because it’s a part of the move’s conceptual history, using a {{main}} article link to move over to the form for the nitty gritty on how everything about that specific implementation works. For reference look at how Dash handles the Dash (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga) (Relevant Edit) and the Spin Dash (Relevant Edit). Instead of restating the entire move but trying to be a little looser about the mechanics than the main article, it has a note saying “this exists and is a version of the thing this article is about”, and then sends the reader to the main article. It's a more efficient use of bits and our readers' time.

This does not affect moves of non-powered up characters that are modified by the power-up. Flying Squirrel Mario’s high Spin Jumps stay on Spin Jump, Frog Mario's and Penguin Mario’s swimming stay on Swim, Tanooki Mario’s Tail Spin stays on Roll, and so on. This is in addition to these modified versions of moves being written about on their form’s pages. (No, shell dash is not a modified dash. It's a new action that dashing happens to trigger, as indicated by the requirement of dashing and alternate method of crouching on a slope) This proposal does not affect projectiles whose existence is broader than their associated power-up, namely Fireball, Ice Ball, Hammer, and Bubble. Builder Boxes are Crates, so they fall into this bucket. (Superball would be included, but it was merged with Superball Mario years ago and is not included.) This also does not affect character/power-up hybrids. Yoshi's Swallow, Egg Throw, et al, Baby DK's DK Dash Attack, Diddy Kong's Diddy Attack and Barrel Jet, and Rambi's Supercharge and Charge are examples of these exclusions. This is because in some cases the character can use the move without being a power-up, usually because they are playable in a non-power-up capacity. While this isn’t true in every case, it makes sense to extend this grace to all character/power-up hybrids. SMB2 Mario is bizarre, but charge jump is ultimately unaffected. It’s a move of the normal player characters in Super Mario Bros. 2 proper, and the article doesn’t have a Super Mario Maker 2 section to cut down anyway. I’d advocate for adding more charge jump content to the SMB2 Mario article, but that’s not part of the proposal.

Perceptive readers probably realize that this policy would gut Fly, an article entirely about a recurring skill of certain forms/capability of items. An article consisting entirely of {{main}} templates would be bad, right? Au contraire, for this is by design. Fly is trapped in a purgatory where it can’t actually say anything meaningful because all of the data for each of the forms, abilities, and items it’s trying to cover should be on the articles for those things. So it’s a listicle of every game you can fly in with cliff notes about how they work. I guess its a directory for all of the flying skills, but having it be a traditional article makes using Fly as a directory inefficient. At this point, we should embrace the list structure and use it for something lists are good for, comparisons between games. I have compiled a list version of Fly on a userpage, based on the existing List of power-ups. It’s messy and incomplete but I think it’s better than the Fly article. Should this proposal pass, this list will replace the article. As the various contexts of Fly are not the same kind of action to begin with, the article will become List of methods of flight. This broadens the scope to fit all of the components. (Note how "flight" is not a proper noun).

Tail whip was created after I planned this proposal but before I proposed it. If this proposal passes, it gets merged into Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games. This policy devastates Tail Whip in the same way Fly is. Tail Whip can keep its categories as a redirect. While the move may be used by multiple forms, the most basic forms with the attack are more than capable of storing Tail whip's mechanics for the improved versions of White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario to refer to later. This matches how Penguin Mario defers to Ice Mario and Ice Ball. Tails are also on Tail Whip, but Tail handles using Tail and has no need to be listed on another article. Even if we wanted a complete list of games with with tail attacks, Raccoon Mario already mentions Tail. (The situation is also similar to Cape, which used to compile the yellow capes of Cape Mario and Superstar Mario into a listicle before this proposal reduced it to only the Smash Bros. attack.)

Oh yeah and I guess Strike of Intuition is caught in the crosshairs of this since it is a move exclusive to Detective Peach. Given everything else, it gets merged too.

Proposer: Salmancer (talk)
Deadline: March 31, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Merge moves and Listify Fly: Merge moves to forms, and convert Fly into a list with the name List of methods of flight

  1. Salmancer (talk) Per proposal.

Merge moves, Fly is free: Merge moves to forms, but keep Fly as is

Clip Fly's wings: Do not merge moves to forms, change Fly from an article to a list with the name List of methods of flight

Oppose: Status quo

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Many of the moves in question are used by multiple forms, so attempting to merge them to all separately would violate Mariowiki:Once and only once EDIT: which makes determining appearances of the move across different games more difficult to find. Furthermore, we do not merge character-specific moves to their respective pages (other than non-Mario characters in the Super Smash Bros. series) - for instance, look at Scuttle and Flutter Jump - so why should we do so with forms?
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) I don't think we cover moves and other actions particularly well, and I would rather see what that looks like before proposing mergers. Moves are not strictly the same as the form itself (i.e. Flying Squirrel Mario, Power Squirrel Mario, and captured Glydon can all "glide"), and it would be nice to see detail on what the moves are in isolation. Sometimes different power-uped forms perform the same move. A quick look through the fly article indicates there are things lumped together there that really aren't the same thing.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) per all. the current state of the wiki's move coverage just isn't good enough right now to determine whether this proposal would have any benefits. would love to see this proposal again in the future when we have more ground to stand on, but it's not the time right now.

Comments (Merge moves of forms to forms even if they are non-unique and replace Fly with a list)

I am sorry this proposal planned for a while is going to merge an article that was just made. It kind of jumped further up my list of priorities given I don't want people to put hard work into adding to Tail whip if I'm about to try to merge it. Salmancer (talk) 18:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Question; would this merge Fireball Punch, and would this failing result in re-instating Dangan Mario? These manga "forms" are kind of an edge case. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock ( talk • contribs ) Camwoodstock-sigicon2.png 18:23, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Oh dear manga questions. From what I understand of things, I think nothing should happen either way. Dangan Mario was an article as a form, so unless it's getting reevaluated to be a named move it stays where it lies. Fireball Punch is tricky. The thing is that this proposal exists because of pressures from the medium of video games. Fireball Punch is from a linear narrative story, there's not really much of a benefit readers gain from merging Fireball Punch because odds are someone looking at Super Mario Wiki to read about Fireball Mario doesn't need to know what a Fireball Punch is soon after. They might not even be reading the fifth chapter of Volume 1, the only place with a Fireball Punch. You can hardly consider the Fireball Punch to be a core part of Fireball Mario like all of the moves involved in the proposal. Fireball Punch is free from this proposal, though someone else might think the lack of length means it should be merged into Fireball Mario given this proposal is merging many longer articles or sections of articles into their home forms. Salmancer (talk) 18:56, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick for your own sake, you should know "once and only once" as a strict policy has been retired. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:18, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Thanks, wish I'd known that before. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:30, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Characters aren't forms, so their moves are unaffected by this proposal, which means Scuttle isn't involved, Character/power-ups are unaffected, so Flutter Jump also isn't affected and you can't loophole abuse your way to merging Scuttle through the Luigi Cap. Forms that are improved versions of other forms already defer to the base form for unchanged abilities they inherit. Ice Mario has two paragraphs dedicated to using Ice Balls See example text of everything Penguin Mario has to say about Ice Balls..

After Mario has become this form, he can throw Ice Balls at enemies and freeze them. Mario can then use the frozen enemies as platforms or pick them up and throw them against the wall or other enemies.

- Penguin Mario

The system works! It's repeated for White Raccoon Mario in relation to Raccoon Mario, as per the line, "It gives the player Raccoon Mario's abilities, causes the P-Meter to charge more quickly, allows the player to run and stand on water (like Mini Mario), and grants invincibility for the stage". It's also done for Power Squirrel Mario to Flying Squirrel Mario, with "As Power Squirrel Mario, Mario has all of the abilities of Flying Squirrel Mario, though he never loses the ability to glide and can perform Flying Squirrel Jumps continuously without landing". Salmancer (talk) 19:35, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

"List of methods of flight" as a name for the userpage was designed to be aware that not everything on Fly is the same kind of move. (and also it managed to morph into a list of all ways to get from point A to point B if point B is higher than point A... and then an extra addendum for hovering over hazards.) Would it be better if it were placed in mainspace as "List of methods of flight"? Salmancer (talk) 19:47, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Regarding your saying that tail whip's info would be moved to Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games, would that not mean that Tanooki Mario's page would not discuss the tail whip until Super Mario 3D Land, despite it being usable by that form in Super Mario Bros. 3? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:53, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Tanooki Mario is already doing exactly that. I don't see anything that makes the article hard to follow, short of it going "there is mandatory reading before reading this article." Which White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario have been doing as well. It's fine.

In this form, he can turn into an invulnerable statue by holding +Control Pad down and pressing B Button at the same time, in addition to using Raccoon Mario's moves, making it an improved version of Raccoon Mario.

- Tanooki Mario, Super Mario Bros. 3 section.

However, the form's mechanics are different from Super Mario Bros. 3, as while Mario can still tail whip (by pressing X Button or Y Button) and glide (now done by holding A Button or B Button, as with Caped Mario, rather than tapping the buttons), he cannot fly during gameplay.

- Tanooki Mario, Super Mario 3D Land section.
Uh, filler text for sig. I guess I'm advocating for building the 3D Land text up more, since that game shouldn't be deferring to Raccoon Mario as it sort of does now. Salmancer (talk) 20:05, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
But how is it superior to do so compared to just having an article for the move? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
Hypothetical: "Wow! Tanooki Mario is so cool! What does he do?/I just beat 3D Land, is there any nuance to it I missed?/Are there any bugs in 3D Land I can exploit with it? I know, I'll go to the Tanooki Mario page on Super Mario Wiki!"
In the current wiki, the three hypothetical people with varying interest in Super Mario read both an article on Tanooki Mario and an article on Tail whip to find everything they want to know. This proposal wants to make all of them only read one article, Tanooki Mario. I think this is better because it saves them the additional click and additional loading time and appeals to lower attention spans. I value these hypothetical readers over the hypothetical reader who is a Mario historian who wants to see the evolution of Tail whip across every game of the franchise. Keep in mind, redirects exist so the earlier three hypotheticals can mostly get to the right page if they zig where I think they'd zag and search for a move name. Okay except for Tail whip in specific because of the 2D/3D split, oof moment. I guess disambiguation pages still let my example work since while there would still be two pages to look at the first of them would be short and quick to load because its a disambig and therefore still superior to having Tail whip as full article alongside Raccoon Mario and Tanooki Mario. Salmancer (talk) 20:59, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
"Gee, I wonder if that cool thing Tanooki Mario does appears in any other games for any other forms?" This is the more likely question that would be asked. Which is why the move page makes more sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:01, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
I think my system still lets that person get to the answers reasonably intuitively. Tanooki Mario says it's super duper Raccoon Mario, so navigating to that page seems reasonable if one wants more tail whipping action. From Raccoon Mario they'll hit Tail. The only odd one out is Mario Kart Super Leaf, which is exclusively covered on Super Leaf, except thanks to Tanooki Mario being playable in Mario Kart Tour with the Super Leaf as his special skill that hypothetical person should still hit Super Leaf. We could just add a Mario Kart series "sentence long section with a {{main}} link" to Raccoon Mario to patch that hole up, and maybe note that giving Tanooki Mario the Super Leaf as a special skill closely reflects the platforming video games, meaning we have all the links the Tail whip article would have without needing to make a Tail whip article.Salmancer (talk) 21:22, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
IMO this just sounds like a lot of confounding mental gymnastics to me and just having a page for the move removes most of the leaps of logic and assumptions on what people will and will not know. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:02, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

On the leading "Princess" for Peach/Daisy/Rosalina, and/or lackthereof

Brace yourselves--this is gonna be a long one.

In July of last year, jan Misali created a proposal to remove the leading "Princess" from the article name for "Princess Daisy". This failed 15-18, as people were interested in a proposal to move Peach alongside this. In November of last year, jan Misali created a follow-up proposal do exactly this, which failed again; among other concerns regarding redirects, most of the support was split between moving both Peach and Daisy to their Princess-less counterparts, and just moving Daisy, leaving the opposition in the lead. Guess third time's the charm.

The question is simple; do we remove "Princess" from the names of the Princess Peach and Princess Daisy articles? Time and time again, we've removed or truncated full names or particles to more common names. However, for whatever reason, the "Princess" particles for Peach and Daisy stick, despite Nintendo being very hit-or-miss about how required these are, especially for Daisy, whose "Princess, despite never doing anything royal outside of her debut" status has been acknowledged, officially, multiple times.

To recap the cases in favor of these renames for people that didn't read those first two proposals, the case for Daisy in particular is very strong, so we'll start with her. Simply put, Nintendo so rarely calls her by the name of "Princess Daisy" that it's starting to become a surprise when they do call her that in things like HotWheels character cars. To re-iterate a point made in jan Misali's original proposal, the count of times where Daisy is overtly referred to as "Princess Daisy" outside of manuals or other such paratexts can be counted on two hands, and even then, only barely; once in Super Mario Bros. Print World (which also erroneously calls Peach "Daisy" at one point), the two baseball games and Fortune Street interchange "Daisy" and "Princess Daisy" in dialogue but all UI uses just "Daisy", Super Mario Run being in a similar boat but with in-game descriptions for Remix 10 instead of dialogue, and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, where Palutena calls her that. In every other case, including her own debut game, she is generally called "Daisy".

For Daisy, there is also the strange asterisk that is her film equivalent, but given the context of the plot of the film itself--that Daisy is unaware of her own royal status for the bulk of the film, and is simply referred to as just "Daisy" for most of it, we personally think it's fair to move her to "Daisy (film character) and add a Full Name parameter to clarify her "Princess Daisy" title she has towards the end. That being said, even her own official trading card just calls her Daisy, and apparently the "Princess Daisy" title only gets dropped on the back of "Sad Goodbyes", which we lack an image for.

The case for Princess Peach is less strong, partially thanks to the release of Princess Peach: Showtime!, a game in 2024 that makes rather overt use of "Princess Peach"; however, it is worth noting that Nintendo still does play rather fast-and-loose with the "Princess" particle for her as well. Most spinoffs will truncate the "Princess" off of her name, as far back as Mario Kart 64 and even after the release of Showtime, later that same year, Super Mario Party Jamboree also truncated the "Princess" off of Peach's name. While we acknowledge it's odd to laser in on exactly one game, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe just calls her "Peach", and that is one of the best-selling games in the entire Mario franchise.

We've seen various arguments against these, and aside from "personal preference for preferring particles", which we obviously can't argue with (at least, not without looking silly), we can't say we understand the majority of them:

  • Concerns were risen about removing royalty particles from other article names, such as Princess Shokora or Princess Shroob or King Bob-omb or Prince Mush (never mind that in his case, it's a stage name and not royalty). In those cases, the characters have never been referred to without their particles that we could find unless there was already an older name in the first place, such as "Big Bob-omb" for "King Bob-omb" (it's possible there's remote dialogue or an obscure Manga appearance we don't have on-record, but we're doubtful). These would retain their particles, as per our Naming policies determining that the most common English name is what is used, and in these cases, the particle is included almost 100% of the time. In contrast, Nintendo has been fairly interchangeable with Peach and Daisy's "princess" particles, and in Daisy's case, her particle has only become increasingly rarer as time goes on. If instances were located where the aforementioned characters lacked their particles short of the Big/King Bob-omb example, that would be something worth acknowledging, but in their cases, the particles being excluded is overwhelmingly the exception, not the norm.
  • Concerns have been risen about the Peach and Daisy article titles potentially referring to generic subjects; however, as of writing this proposal, both "Peach" and "Daisy" directly lead to their corresponding princesses anyways by means of redirects. Other subjects are instead given a "For <x>, see <y>" in the Princess' articles introductions. These redirects are already present as-is, and these changes wouldn't change how a search lands.
  • For internet traffic, given Peach and Daisy already lead to these articles, we still fail to see how this would impact much, unless we intentionally chose to not leave a redirect after a move; it should go without saying that, if we were to make a move of this magnitude, we would absolutely be leaving a redirect.
  • On a meta level, for the "would prefer one, but not the other" angle that was part of the reason the second proposal failed, we have since introduced a poll format to more adequately determine more nuanced situations like this, without risking support being split between two groups and being out-numbered overall.
  • While this was not mentioned in the original proposals to our awareness, we do acknowledge that some people may be concerned about the costs of labor of changing a bunch of links; however, not only could this trivially be an automated rename, something our proprietor already does fairly regularly with template names, even if this were somehow unworkable, we already have ample tools to manually perform such a change built into MediaWiki itself. We are well-aware of what this wiki's userbase can do when it comes to making these mass-changes, and we think we have a very capable userbase when it comes to deploying a change like this, either automatically or by hand.

There are also two characters we think are worth acknowledging, one brought up by jan Misali when we shared this proposal's draft with them, and one we noticed ourselves. For jan Misali's part, there's Bowser, or rather, King Bowser... Or rather, how in-frequently Bowser is known as "King Bowser". It's to the point where mentions of "King Koopa" as he appears in the DiC cartoons severely outnumber the amount of times Bowser is actually called "King Bowser" outright. This is exceedingly non-contentious, and while a King Bowser redirect has existed since 2006, we can't tell when the last time "King Bowser" was overtly used in dialogue. All we can really say is, having played Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser recently, it's not in that, with Bowser usually just being referred to as, well, Bowser, with the occasional uses of "Lord" or other offbeat honorifics instead of "King".

However, to us, the real smoking gun for why a move like this would not only make sense, but be perfectly fine for the wiki, has been sitting right underneath our noses the entire time. Rosalina, or should we say Princess Rosalina? Rosalina has been called a Princess from sources dating as far back as 2010 and as recently as 2023. She's commonly colloquially known as a Princess by fans. Heck, Princess Rosalina is, as of writing this proposal, a valid redirect to her article, and her infobox states her full name is "Princess Rosalina". However, her article has sat at the title of "Rosalina" since its inception back in 2007, with the Princess redirect only being made in 2014. Rosalina is a Featured Article, so her page naturally receives a lot of traffic and scrutiny, but nobody seems to have questioned if it would be worth moving her article to "Princess Rosalina" to match the other two princesses; and while one could argue that Rosalina is "not much of a princess", that naturally begets the response that neither is Daisy, who keeps the particle anyways. There's not really any reason we can think of why Daisy should keep her particle if Rosalina hasn't ever held one and it's seemingly never been questioned, and from there, we could understand removing the particle from Peach's name for parity's sake. (Even still, if you really wanted to, we've provided an option to, in addition for what to do to the "Princess" particles in Peach & Daisy's names, if we should add one to Rosalina's name, or keep it absent. We don't really intend to include something like this for "King Bowser" as, while "Princess Rosalina" at least has a plurality number of cases we could find of that name being used, we could literally only find one "King Bowser", in Nintendo Comics System.)

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)

Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Peach?

Deadline: April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Yes Princess (status quo)
  1. Waluigi Time (talk) Per past me: "I don't think focusing in so heavily on the exact places or times the full names vs. the shortened names are used is beneficial if those names are still in frequent use. [...] Princess Peach is still very commonly used, the average person knows her by that name, I don't see a need to change it." Considering Nintendo used her full name in a game title last year, this would be a really odd time to do it, and it sheds some light on how awkward it is putting so much focus squabbling over the specifics of character select screens and the like, IMO. I don't see a consistency issue with Daisy regardless of what happens with her, they weren't designed to be perfect analogues to each other and are used in different contexts, which also informs Nintendo's usage of their full titles.
  2. Technetium (talk) Per Waluigi Time, past and present.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Much like Daisy, "princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Peach, potentially because they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts where you play as her, or they want to be conservative with text on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Peach" erroneous, archaic, unused, or inappropriate for the title of an article. This is an even stronger case for Peach because she shows up more often in non-playable appearances, where she is typically called "Princess Peach," and they represent the bulk of her history. It is the name used in most instruction booklets, toys, and even in-game. It is not the end of the world for her article to simply go by "Peach," but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining that. "Peach" is more so a shorter derivative of "Princess Peach" than "Bowser" ever was of "King Bowser" or anything like that (and certainly more so than "Princess Rosalina" is for "Rosalina.") You can probably count the number of sources that prefer using that name for him on one hand, unlike Peach.
  4. Rykitu (talk) All 5 Princess Peach games have "Princess" before "Peach" (with the exception of Peach's Puzzle and Parasol Fall, unless you count it's full title being Super Princess Peach — Parasol Fall). It is also used way too commonly by Nintendo so I think it should stay the way it is.
  5. LadySophie17 (talk) Per Waluigi Time and Nintendo101
  6. SGoW (talk) Per all.
  7. Pseudo (talk) While I can understand the desire for consistency with the other two princesses, Princess Peach is clearly her full name, being used in the titles of games as well as regularly in various bits of dialogue and paratext. It's true that she's usually just Peach in a character select screen, but I don't think this defines how she is overall perceived... in my subjective experience, she would usually be known by the average person aware of Mario as Princess Peach.
No Princess
  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. While we think the arguments for keeping Peach's particle are the strongest, namely since we have an entire game from 2024 with the particle in the name, we do think if we remove this from Daisy, we should naturally remove this from Peach for the sake of parity.
  2. LinkTheLefty (talk) Abolish the monarchy.
  3. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
  4. Super Mario RPG (talk) "Princess" is not part of the name, it's just a title and not as integral to Peach's identity as, for example, Dr. Mario.
  5. Ahemtoday (talk) It's just "Peach" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
  6. EvieMaybe (talk) per all
  7. Blinker (talk) Per all. And the use of "Peach" in character select screens is an intentional choice, not due to character constraints, as shown by the existance of names like "Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)".
  8. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all. I'm still not a fan of using abridged names—especially for crossover characters like Fox, Sonic, etc.—but if we want to be consistent about it, something's gotta give.
  9. Pizza Master (talk) per all
  10. PopitTart (talk) I was initially hesitant because of the existence of Princess Peach Showtime, but I was quickly swayed by looking at the game's online store page, which displays the simple "Peach" name no less than a dozen times.

Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Daisy?

Based on the vote so far, this option may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on March 26, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the option if applicable.

Deadline: April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Yes Princess (status quo)
  1. Nintendo101 (talk) In my view, "Princess" is scrapped in material where you play as Daisy, which happen to represent the bulk of her appearances. Perhaps they want a more familial sounding moniker for such contexts, or they want to be conservative with space on character selection screens. That does not make "Princess Daisy" erroneous, archaic, or unused. It is the name used in Super Mario Land, the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, and licensed promotional toys and products of Daisy, where she is called "Princess Daisy." It is not the end of the world for her name to go by something else, but there is also nothing incorrect or erroneous with maintaining the status quo.
  2. LadySophie17 (talk) Per Nintendo101
  3. Pseudo (talk) Even if she is to be referred to as Daisy most of the time, Princess Daisy is still clearly her "proper" name in my view. This falls into a similar category to my views on the Peach situation (or Princess Peach, as the case may be); even though it's less supported by in-game usage and the like, this is still the main name that she is known by.
No Princess
  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. To be honest, this has never been a contest for us; as far back as flavor text in Mario Party 9, Nintendo has acknowledged the weird lack of Damsel-in-distress-ness to Daisy's character, and the usage of "Daisy" in lieu of "Princess Daisy" is as old as Super Mario Land itself. That Daisy's royalty is bordering on in-name only post-Land is practically a defining trait of hers.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per the trilogy of proposals, this is the name that is almost always used for this major character and it is bizarre that we aren't reflecting that. This should've happened long ago, hopefully this new poll format will finally allow it to. I think I'm neutral regarding whether to move Peach, since it's much less immediately obvious which of her two names is most commonly used.
  3. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per last times.
  4. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal, and per my previous proposals.
  5. Super Mario RPG (talk) Since I'm supportive of "Princess" being removed from Peach's article title, the same would apply to Daisy, who has made fewer appearances, including with the "Princess" title.
  6. Cadrega86 (talk) Per all three past proposals.
  7. Ahemtoday (talk) Forgive the copy-paste job, but: it's just "Daisy" on stuff like character select screens, which I think are the most comparable source for article title formatting.
  8. EvieMaybe (talk) per all
  9. Blinker (talk) Per all
  10. Tails777 (talk) Per all the points made on past proposals. I feel nothing more needs to be added.
  11. Rykitu (talk) Per proposal.
  12. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
  13. Pizza Master (talk) per all.
  14. PopitTart (talk) Hi, She's Daisy!

Do we have a "Princess" particle for Princess Rosalina?

Based on the vote so far, this option may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on March 26, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the option if applicable.

Deadline: April 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Yes Princess
No Princess (status quo)
  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. We hope we've made it apparent that we think adding the particle to Rosalina's article is very silly indeed, especially decades after the fact, when Rosalina has obtained a featured article without the particle, and when Rosalina is about as much of a princess as Daisy.
  2. Hewer (talk) She's barely ever called that.
  3. LinkTheLefty (talk) Queen it up.
  4. Nintendo101 (talk) Unlike the other two, there is no substantial media that refers to Rosalina as "Princess Rosalina." It is presented only in larger descriptive material on Rosalina, and even then, only occassionally.
  5. Waluigi Time (talk) If anything, cases where Princess Rosalina is used are the clear outlier.
  6. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - She's clearly a queen, just sometimes lumped as one of "the princesses" for convenience.
  7. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal. It's unclear if Rosalina is even really a princess in the first place.
  8. Super Mario RPG (talk) I don't think I ever recall it being used.
  9. Cadrega86 (talk) Per all.
  10. Ahemtoday (talk) Princess of what, by the way? Princess of space? Can you be the princess of space?
  11. EvieMaybe (talk) princess of acoustic rock, obviously.
  12. Blinker (talk) Per all
  13. Tails777 (talk) Per all.
  14. Rykitu (talk) Per all.
  15. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all. Her backstory implies she was one, and she carries the appearance of one, but it is certainly not one of her defining characteristics.
  16. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
  17. Pseudo (talk) She's straight-up never referred to this way except in supplementary material like websites, not even the Super Mario Galaxy manual calls her Princess Rosalina. This is pretty clear cut to me.
  18. Pizza Master (talk) In Chapter 7 of Rosalina's Story, there is a castle in the background that is implied to be Rosalina's house. Quote Rosalina, "I want to go back to my house by the hill!" The only visible "house" by the hill is the castle. So it's likely that she was born to royalty on her home planet. That said, Daisy has no princess particle, so Rosalina shouldn't either just going off precedence.

Comments (Princess Particle Party!)

Should be of note that Palutena's Guidance is not the only part in Ultimate in which Daisy is referred to as "Princess Daisy" (obviously this also applies to Peach). ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 14:23, March 19, 2025 (EDT)

I can't track down the article (iirc, it was translated by SourceGaming), Masahiro Sakurai prefers dropping royal monikers in Smash Bros. games. If I recall correctly, it is to make the character more familial to the player and conserve textual space on the character selection screen. King Dedede is only called "Dedede" in the Japanese releases of the Super Smash Bros. games. That does not mean "King Dedede" is not a more complete rendering of his name. - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:44, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
King K. Rool is called that in Smash, so it's clearly case-by-case (and I thought the "saving space on the character select screen" argument was debunked last time by Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer)). Anyway, why should a "complete" name automatically be more desirable than the name that is actually used in pretty much every appearance of the character? As was mentioned in the proposal, we've established in cases like the Koopalings that the longest name doesn't have to be the name we use. What makes Daisy different? (Honestly, "Princess Daisy" probably has less of a claim to being an article title than the Koopalings' full names do.) Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:01, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
@Hewer I was referring to the Super Smash Bros. series and the people involved in the decisions for that series. None of them made Mario Kart Tour, a more contemporaneous game. Peach has been playable in spinoffs since the 1990s and Daisy has been since 2000, where trends like this would be established on hardware more limited, and by people who may have different views on how to render their characters' name on selection screens. In Melee, for example, a game with Peach, they call Captain Falcon "C. Falcon" on the selection screen. They probably could have rendered his name in full like they did for the Ice Climbers, but they didn't. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:15, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
I was replying to your vote on Daisy as well as your comment, sorry if that wasn't clear. Either way, I don't really understand the point you're making here. My point stands that Light-blue Shy Guy (Explorer) is in the same game as just Daisy. Captain Falcon is in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate with just Daisy. Can you name any games that call her "Princess Daisy" on a select screen (or other similarly prominent context besides "random line of dialogue", for that matter)? I'm not aware of any. Surely if all the different people working on different games came to the same conclusion that it should be Daisy rather than Princess Daisy, that's more reason for us to move it? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:32, March 19, 2025 (EDT)
@Hewer In regards to "King K. Rool" - that's probably because every single language literally calls him that (at least in-game). In contrast, the reason Peach, Bowser and Dedede aren't Princess Peach, King Bowser and (JP-set) King Dedede is likely because they're literally Peach-hime, Daimaō Koopa and Dedede-daiō, respectively. Yes, these are simplified translations, but the nuance is different. The titles are probably getting mostly phased out because Nintendo likes it when the names of their major characters don't have to change much between regions. For example, one interview where Takaya Imamura regretted not unifying Star Fox's Andorf as "Andross" from the start. This was also done with the big Legendary Pokémon, as I recall, etc. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:10, March 19, 2025 (EDT)

How is Rosalina a queen, exactly? I don't think that's ever been stated anywhere, and Peach is still Princess even though she explicitly rules the Mushroom Kingdom, so Rosalina ruling something wouldn't make her Queen necessarily. Speaking of, even if she's not technically ruling anything now, she's still a princess by birth (backstory and Baby Rosalina's design), and I don't think titles become null and void like that / "oh it's been (blank) years I guess I'm not a princess anymore". Technetium (talk) 16:03, March 19, 2025 (EDT)

@Pseudo: In what way is Princess Daisy "the main name that she is known by"? It certainly isn't officially, and in my experience it isn't even the more used name by fans either. And since Nintendo101 didn't really answer this question: why does a name being the "full name" mean it should automatically take priority? It didn't with Conker the Squirrel, Admiral Bobbery, Sonic the Hedgehog, Professor Elvin Gadd, Rambi the Rhino, Colored Pencils, The Missile Maestro, Baby Donkey Kong, Wendy O. Koopa, Sir Grodus, Glad Red Paratroopa, TEC-XX, and indeed, Princess Rosalina. So why is Princess Daisy different? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:57, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

I do agree with the argument, but I do want to just correct the mention of Glad Red Paratroopa. Super Princess Peach enemies don't actually ever show longer names than the abbreviated ones. the "full" names suggested by that proposal are technically conjectural.--PopitTart (talk) 05:30, March 20, 2025 (EDT)
Fair enough. That's one example down, eleven more to go. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:33, March 20, 2025 (EDT)

Merge the "did not reach consensus" and "tied" proposal outcomes on the archives

This came up in the comments at the tail end of my poll proposal archive proposal. A grand total of four proposals have "tied" and are therefore represented by brown. Notably, nobody decided this proposal would be brown even though, by any reasonable definition of "tie", it is one. I take this as a sign that this distinction isn't really... suiting the reality of the proposal page. After all, what makes a tie so different that it needs its own color, when it's just a particular arrangement that a failure of consensus can land on?

By the way, one color has to win out in the merge, and my view is: it will be brown. This is going to sound hugely pedantic, but I don't think white is good for a proposal archive color, at least not one with this meaning. Outside of the new dark mode, it looks like it doesn't have a background. That makes it look like some state inherently separate from the others, or like some kind of blank state with no meaning, or like it's related to what gray means. This isn't any of those; it's a pretty normal fate for a proposal to meet. Brown is more in line with the look of the others, and it looking close to "no quorum" better conveys its similar meaning. (Arguably you could merge in "no quorum", too. I'm not here to make that argument but if I was, we should obviously use orange.) Therefore, I say we're merging them to brown.

Proposer: Ahemtoday (talk)
Deadline: April 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per.

Oppose

Comments

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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