MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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{{/Header}}
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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''


==New features==
==New features==
''None at the moment.''
===Establish a format for poll proposals on the archive lists===
 
Something that's slipped through the cracks when we invented poll proposals was what we do when we add them to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive|these]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP_archive|pages]]. We can't simply have one link to the poll proposal — the entire purpose of the format is that different parts of it can pass and fail independently of one another. What color do we put a proposal where one thing fails and another thing succeeds in?
==Removals==
===Remove non-Mario music from Super Smash Bros. sound test pages===
I'm proposing to remove music tracks not related to the ''Mario'' series and its sub-series from these pages:
*''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl sound test]]''
*''[[Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U sound test]]''
*''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate sound test by series (A–M)]]''
*''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate sound test by series (N–Z)]]''
This is mainly because the tracks aren't related to ''Mario'' and they take up the most space in the pages...to the point where they're really bloated. If this passes, both ''Ultimate'' sound pages listed can be deleted and have their content merged into ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate sound test]]'' if space allows.
 
'''Edit''': To clarify, tracks with ''Mario'' elements like the Famicom Medley (which has the Dr. Mario theme in it) won't be affected by the removals.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Mushzoom}}<br>
I have several pitches for you.
'''Deadline''': September 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
<big>'''''OPTION ZERO'''''</big><br>
#{{User|Mushzoom}} Per proposal.
Do nothing. I'm putting this at the front because I want to leave room for any good-sounding solutions beyond the four I'm about to suggest. <s>It's here on the proposal at all because I'm pretty sure I'm legally obligated to put it here, but I'll be honest — I'm not entirely sure what this winning would... mean. Our hand will eventually be forced when our first poll proposal fully resolves, so a format will be established one way or the other.</s>
#{{User|Sparks}} Recently there have been proposals to get rid of non-''Mario'' content in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. The articles for [[Taunt]] and [[List of Snake's codec conversations]] only have the ''Mario'' related ones for them. This one aims to accomplish a similar goal, so I support.
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and Sparks.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} With crossovers as big as Smash, it would be good to clean up the stuff not related to Mario. For years, our coverage policy about crossovers had us cover as much Smash as Smash Wiki. Now, we've got proposals reducing Smash coverage to focus on this wiki's franchise just like how the other wikis would handle Smash. Bulbapedia focuses on the Pokémon in Smash. Funny enough, before Smash Wiki came to NIWA, Bulbapedia linked to Super Mario Wiki for the other Smash characters. It's good to not be a rival to Smash Wiki, and reducing the sound tests to just the Mario songs is another step forward. Now to reduce the list of [[Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)|Spirits]].
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. While we personally probably wouldn't have touched this until later (we have a very "just say when" approach to our Smash proposals, if you haven't noticed... ;P), we figure it's best to clear this up now if it's fine with everyone else. Anyone looking for a full list of songs is probably checking SSBWiki by this point, and so we should probably narrow it down to only songs relevant to Mario (as well as Donkey Kong/Yoshi/Wario/Mario Kart/other such stuff, of course) by now.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Ah, yes, "One-Winged Angel" and "Awake", my favorite musical pieces from the Mario series. Per proposal and Sparks.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} These tables are nearly direct copies of the "Music" list articles on SmashWiki. Just use the <nowiki>{{NIWA}} template</nowiki> in the References section of each article to provide easy access to the complete song list for each game.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all. <small>Maybe we should start considering Smash Bros. as a "guest appearance" series?</small>
#{{User|Axii}} Per proposer. As always, I support trimming Smash coverage.
#{{User|Mario}} Information isn't really relevant to the goals of MarioWiki. I do think Smash Bros. is still a thorough crossover series and Mario plays a significant role in coverage, so not really Mario's guest appearance, but coverage on MarioWiki should be conditional. We need to remain focused.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} we don't need to eat smashwiki's lunch.
#{{User|Yook Bab-imba}} Anything that reduces the amount of Smash content gets a yes from me, there's a proper wiki for that.
#{{User|YoYo}} per all


====Oppose====
''EDIT: It has been helpfully pointed out that there is a [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals/Header&diff=prev&oldid=4772367 current policy] — they are red if they all issues fail, gray if at least one passes and is unimplemented, and green if at least one passes and all issues are implemented. A "one issue changes the color" kind of rule. It's definitely not insensible, but I feel that we could be conveying more information. Still, even if  this if the "fail option", we have a policy now, so I got what I wanted even if this one wins.''
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] - I don't really see this being an issue - especially since some of the non-''Mario'' music we otherwise do have representation of, like Mute City and Big Blue in MK8. (Also I would appreciate not having my upcoming omnibus proposal pushed back because people won't stop making other Smash proposals piece-by-piece when it's already been stated by a patroller that it'd be better to do things all at once - and that these "piecemeal" ones ''shouldn't'' be done.)
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Doc, plus this would create an inconsistency: the stage list pages list the music tracks for each stage, except for Ultimate because in that game every stage's music is just all the music from that stage's franchise. The Ultimate sound test page we have now doubles as the listing for stage music for Ultimate's stages, so removing it creates a hole in our coverage where Ultimate is the only game in the series that we don't provide that information for. Coverage inconsistencies like this keep arising as people keep making one-at-a-time proposals removing individual elements of Smash coverage, so I agree with Doc that at this point, handling all of it in one would be a much better idea.
#{{User|Tails777}} I remain pretty steadfast in my general opposing stance on removing ''Smash'' content. I have come to terms with some merges (fighters, stages etc), but I still remain against the idea of removing this stuff. ''Smash'' is a crossover in the same way that ''Mario & Sonic'' and ''Fortune Street'' are and the size of the crossover does not change my stance on that. I'm not saying cover everything with an article, but I remain on the side of covering this stuff in some capacity regardless. Per all.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Doc. Plus, I'm not really a fan of having pages dedicated to incomplete lists — I feel this way about trophies and spirits, too, if I'm honest. I think a page titled "List of X" should have all Xes on it; though I don't entirely know if that all-or-nothing philosophy holds up in practical circumstances.
#{{User|Metalex123}} Per Doc. I'm not a huge fan of Smash full coverage on MarioWiki personally, but it was moreso because in the past, fully non-Mario elements received articles, like say, Mementos, Sephiroth, and the Killer Eye. It makes sense to keep the info of these pages somewhere on the wiki, in stuff like list pages, while making it obvious the wiki does not focus on that content. I don't like the recent proposals asking to delete everything Smash-related that isn't Mario, when they're clearly on either lists pages, or merged into the game page themselves, both cases making it obvious the wiki does not focus on that series.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.


====Comments====
<big>'''''OPTION ONE'''''</big><br>
Just to be sure, music like Wrecking Crew Medley, Famicom Medley (which has the Dr. Mario theme as part of it), Title Theme - 3D Hot Rally, and maybe more won't be affected right. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:42, August 30, 2024 (EDT)
The different issues of a poll proposal share a number corresponding to when the first issue closes. They're listed separately, and distinguished from each other via letters. As an example, the three parts of [[Talk:Yoshi_(species)#Properly_define_Brown_Yoshi|the Brown Yoshi proposal]] would slot in at #83A, #83B, and #83C. (That would shove some other proposals down; we could also just append them to the end of the list like normal and brush off the inconsistency if y'all prefer.)
:Yeah this proposals needs exceptions for like the Famicom Medley (I think there are two of these now) that has Mario elements to it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:44, August 30, 2024 (EDT)
:Yes, they won't be affected. [[User:Mushzoom|Mushzoom]] ([[User talk:Mushzoom|talk]]) 17:46, August 30, 2024 (EDT)
::That creates the obvious issue of making it look like those are the ''only'' songs available for the stages they are listed under, when in fact they mix with other "generic" Nintendo songs. To say nothing on how some Mario stages have "miscellaneous" themes available in-game - one example that comes to mind is the Tetris theme available in the Luigi's Mansion stage. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:59, August 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::I guess we could put some kind of disclaimer on the music list pages to explain that (along the lines of "there are multiple songs in this category, here's only the Mario-related ones"). Also, I don't think this proposal affects the stage pages/lists (as I talked about in my vote), so the individual stage articles for Mario stages will be able to keep their music lists at least. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:20, August 31, 2024 (EDT)
::::I suppose, but it's still nice to have them all in one place (I'll admit, I'm nowhere near as invested in this one as I was with the Pokemon one. If the pages included actual music files, I probably would be, due to my general fear of files being deleted). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:00, August 31, 2024 (EDT)
:::::It's not like those stage list pages like [[List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros.]] are particularly great to begin with. {{User:Mario/sig}} 14:46, September 1, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Smash list articles in general are just plain bad. They're slightly trimmed down dumps of text from merged articles, and it's very clear that nobody wants to work on them, and for a good reason. Smash isn't Mario, even before merge these pages just sat there collecting dust, and I still don't understand why Smash is being treated like a sacred cow by some editors. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 15:13, September 1, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|Koopa con Carne}} - Well I mean, technically, no one's gonna persuade me that [[Skowl]]'s battle theme ''isn't'' just One-Winged Angel :P [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:00, August 31, 2024 (EDT)
:It's David Wise's homage, "Winged Angel". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:07, August 31, 2024 (EDT)


{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} has started a discussion [[Talk:Super Smash Bros. (series)#Idea for compromise between viewpoints on coverage|right here]] somewhat related to this proposal and other ones that had passed concerning ''Super Smash Bros.'' coverage on the wiki. I encourage other folks to check it out. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:09, August 31, 2024 (EDT)
The Brown Yoshi proposal is also a handy demonstration of an edge case we have to contend with — if this proposal passed ''right now'', we would list #83A as red and #83B as gray, but what would happen with #83C, which is still ongoing? This is the aspect on which Options One and Two differ. In Option One, issues are not added to the archive page until they close. The page would only contain #83A and #83B if the proposal passed right now, with #83C being added later
:I saw it. It's more or less the same as what we have now, but with the list pages merged into the game pages, as well as non-''Super Mario'' elements being added. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:12, August 31, 2024 (EDT)


==Changes==
I would like to note that the Brown Yoshi proposal is a remarkably well-behaved example. If the issues were ordered differently, we may at one point have #83A and #83C on the list with no #83B until later.
===Characters with multiple galleries should have them divided by decade, not medium===
'''This proposal concerns the galleries for [[Gallery:Mario|Mario]], [[Gallery:Luigi|Luigi]], [[Gallery:Princess Peach|Peach]], [[Gallery:Toad|Toad]], [[Gallery:Bowser|Bowser]], [[Gallery:Princess Daisy|Daisy]], [[Gallery:Yoshi|Yoshi]], [[Gallery:Wario|Wario]], [[Gallery:Waluigi|Waluigi]], and [[Gallery:Donkey Kong|Donkey Kong]].''' In years past, all of these characters originally had single gallery pages for all of the visual material we had, like most subjects with galleries. Overtime, as editors uploaded more material and new games were published, this became unsustainable for them. Their galleries became too big, had difficulty to load for some users, and - for me at least - became difficult to navigate visually. The decision to divide their galleries into smaller ones was wise and substantive. However, the decision to divide them up by the type of media (i.e. artwork, scans, sprites and models, screenshots, etc.) was not. It simply mitigated the problem, and only for the short-term.


Games have continued to come out, editors continue to upload visual treasures, and unless something truly catastrophic happens at Nintendo or the global video game industry, they will continue to produce video games, movies, merchandise, etc. for decades to come. We will inevitably find ourselves with the same problem we had before: galleries too large to navigate efficiently, and even to edit. I personally feel we are already at that point with some of these galleries, especially for Mario.
<big>'''''OPTION TWO'''''</big><br>
Option Two is identical to Option One except in how it handles open issues on partially closed poll proposals. In this option, they ''are'' added to the list alongside the other issues, and marked with a new color — let's say black.


I would like us to change how we divide these gallery pages for a more permeant solution, where we divide them by decade, not the media. Using our main man as an example, [[Gallery:Mario artwork (media)]], [[Gallery:Mario artwork (miscellaneous)]], [[Gallery:Mario scans]], [[Gallery:Mario sprites and models]], and [[Gallery:Mario screenshots]] will be replaced by Gallery:Mario (1981-1989), Gallery:Mario (1990-1999), Gallery:Mario (2000-2009), Gallery:Mario (2010-2019), and Gallery:Mario (2020-present). Each gallery with be subdivided the same we we typically subdivide galleries (artwork, sprites and models, screenshots, with variance in between as needed for things like scans), but it will only be media released during those respective time periods. At the end of a decade, the Gallery:Mario (2020-present) would be renamed Gallery:Mario (2020-2029), and a new one would be established titled Gallery:Mario (2030-present). For characters that debuted at the very end of a decade, like Daisy, a special amendment would be made where the first gallery would be "Gallery:Princess Daisy (1989-1999)", but all subsequent ones would be the same.  
This prevents the awkward gaps we would be susceptible to in Option One, but it ''is'' introducing a whole color for a temporary edge case.


'''[[User:Nintendo101/garden|Here is an illustrative example of what one of these galleries would look like, more or less]].'''
<big>'''''OPTION THREE'''''</big><br>
Option Three is simpler. We create a new color in the archive for poll proposals — I guess let's say black again. Poll proposals get added to the archive when all issues on them are closed.


The reasons why I think this would work are as follows:
This saves space (the other options will have to give fourteen entries to [[Talk:List_of_references_on_the_Internet#Determine_what_memes_should_be_on_the_Internet_references_page|this proposal]], but it means the entry on the list doesn't reflect anything about any individual issue's status, such as whether it's been implemented or not.


#This is sustainable, whereas the current setup is not. Sans time travel, Nintendo will not be publishing any more games during past decades, so there likely would not be any instances where we would need to consider further trimming or splitting galleries for these characters.
''EDIT: Camwoodstock's pitch below of using three colors (and, implicitly, adding the poll proposal to the archive when it has any closed issues) doesn't entirely eliminate that negative, but it does seem much more useful than just having the one color.''
#This will make the galleries for these characters smaller, ensuring they are more digestible for readers to browse and easier for editors to curate. I really do think some of these galleries have become quite the beasts, and the seer sizes of them make them a little less enjoyable to skim. And ultimately, I would really like visitors to enjoy what we do here and appreciate the visual material in the galleries. Editing some of these galleries as is strains my laptop, and I suspect I am not the only one.
#We already organize the material within galleries by release date, so it would be easy enough to divide be decade.
#I strongly suspect the user who wants to see screenshots of, say, Bowser in the first ''Super Mario Bros.'' is the same type of user who would want to see artwork and sprites of him from that game, so it makes more sense for them to be accessible in the same gallery.
#It will be easier for editors to incorporate the new material they come across. Rather than worry they are putting a piece of artwork for a character in the wrong place, they can simply work on the latest gallery for the character.


"But Nintendo101," I hear you type. "This is all fine and dandy, but why would we use the Gregorian calendar instead of console generations or even the consoles themselves?" You ask such good questions. I really respect that about that you. Not all of the material in these galleries come from video games, and it is inherently more intuitive for viewers not very versed in gaming culture to use the same dates they use in their everyday lives. There are also some disagreements on which consoles belong to which generations. So while there are certainly other ways this material can be subdivided, the Gregorian calendar is the simplest.
<big>'''''OPTION FOUR'''''</big><br>
Option Four is simpler still. Each issue is treated as if it were an entirely separate proposal. Each gets numbered and appended to the list when it closes regardless of what anything else in the poll proposal is up to.


I offer three options:
The negative of this way of doing it is that the issues of a poll proposal may end up strewn about the list in a way that doesn't really reflect that they're a related thing.
#'''Support: Reorganize the affected galleries by decades, not medium, including material currently listed under "miscellaneous."''' Even miscellaneous pieces were released at some point, and often reflect the style of the games released around the same time, so it would make sense to cluster them together.
#'''Support: Reorganize the affected galleries by decades, but keep the ones for miscellaneous artwork separate.''' For those who feel like general promotional material makes sense in a gallery of its own. Using the earlier example, there would still be a Gallery:Mario (miscellaneous) alongside those decade articles.
#'''Oppose: Keep galleries separated by medium, not decade.''' This would also be the "do nothing" option.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 8th, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': March 18, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support: Reorganize these galleries by decade, including material currently listed under "miscellaneous"====
====Option Zero====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per Porple "Steve" Montage in the comments.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} It would be nice to have every image applying to certain games, be it artwork, sprites, screenshots, and so forth, on the same page.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Porple.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} This would have the added benefit of reducing the main gallery page for each character to be solely a disambiguation, instead of confusingly containing links to sub-galleries while also housing miscellaneous images on the same page.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} perple montage
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} after talking with N101 on discord, i understood the proposal better. i'm still not sure what we'll do for artwork we don't know the date of, but this is a good idea.  
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Porple in the comments, though admittedly this is more of a secondary option to our more robust version of Option Three we pitched. Status quo isn't the ''worst'' thing in the world, and we do acknowledge our more robust solution of "dark colors" may be a bit harder to convey as we've been slowly rolling out... Well, a dark mode for the ''whole wiki''. (If it was down to us, the poll proposals would use lighter colors in dark mode, before you ask; of course, if that option somehow wins, we'd be down to help fine-tune it.)
#{{User|Arend}} Per Porple.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per porplemontage.
#{{User|Salmancer}} Oh, huh. I suppose this is a solved problem then.  


====Support: Reorganize these galleries by decade, but keep the ones for miscellaneous artwork separate====
====Option One====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Secondary option, per Mario's comments.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} It's either this or Option Two for me — it's important to me that the issues end up next to each other on the archive ''and'' that the status of each one is visible on the page.
#{{User|PaperSplash}} I do think it makes more sense to keep miscellaneous artwork separate.
#{{User|Salmancer}} There's no rule saying a poll proposal has to be for small things, since part of the premise was reducing the need for large numbers of combination options. There could be poll proposals that have wide scopes, and as such I think we're going to have to stomach the poll proposals with 10+ proposals in them to make it easier to track policy without thumbing through old proposal pages. Also an archive is for the past, not the present.
#{{User|Mario}} If this works out, I'll consider the first option too. Anyway, this isn't sustainable in the future. We're going to need to split Mario's gallery even more whenever we like it or not. Split by decade is going to future proof it but if the resulting pages are too small then we can consider merges in the future.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} I only vote this over Option 1 because it's difficult to name a source in the captions for misc. artwork when the uploaders may not include one.


====Oppose: Keep these galleries organized by medium====
====Option Two====
<s>#{{User|EvieMaybe}} as both a pixel and traditional artist, being able to specifically look up all of mario's sprites or all of mario's artwork for reference material is massively helpful. i'm willing to change my vote if an option that doesn't impact this is proposed, but for now i'm opposing</s>
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} See my note about Option One.
#{{User|Paper Plumm}} I think this is just a better way of organising it. Having it split by its current category provides a more cohesive showcase.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option, but we do think darker shades of the colors (a-la our pitch for Option Three) would be nice. Helps distinguish at a glance what was a poll proposal.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all. Sorting them by decade just makes the sprites, models, promo art, and scans harder to find in a jumbled clutter of knick-knacks. Sorting by medium is more convenient and uses less space. And as Evie said, sorting by medium helps to specifically look up an image of one medium among those of same medium.


====Comments====
====Option Three====
Some art in Mario's gallery, we don't know a definite year they're from. [[:File:Marioart8.png]], for instance, is uploaded on 2013 but this may originate earlier due the rendering style being reminiscent of the later 2000s. In case we get promo art of Mario between, say, 2009 and 2010 where we can't 100% verify the date ([[:File:Marioart2.png|for instance]], this is uploaded in 2010, but again this may be years earlier), is there a way we can determine where they'll be placed? {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:26, September 1, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We would like to pitch a more sophisticated variant of this; 3 new colors. One for a poll that has concluded, one for one that's partially ongoing, and one for a poll that has been partially overturned by a future proposal. Maybe dark green, dark gray/maybe a de-saturated dark green a-la the Shroom Spotlight template, and a dark yellow? The darker colors, of course, to contrast with the non-poll proposals. (On dark mode, we'd probably make these lighter, rather than darker, provided we actually even add dark mode compatibility to the proposal archive colors.)
:I think the first support option would necessitate some detective work, but if one is wary that we do not have the adequate tools or insight necessary to confidently track that information down, I think the second support option would be adequate, where a miscellaneous gallery would still be maintained for neutral promotional material of unclear release date. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:30, September 1, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all.
::That's also an issue that I've been meaning to bring up: "miscellaneous art" sections are ordered with no rhyme or reason whatsoever and never have any dates on anything. Both of those need to be fixed; the origins and times should all be found whenever possible. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:27, September 1, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I definitely see the appeal in having poll proposals under a singular listing, but I think they'd be better served by having one or multiple new colors rather than using the standard red and green.
:::I do actually try to organize misc art whenever I come across that page and decide to do this. In Mario's case, at one point, I did put all the solo art in one spot, first, and then clumped by age of art. Then the group art is next, and I tried ordering it on like how much Mario is there or how clean the art is. Of course, the page has been drastically changed since, but you may have seen remnants of how I organized it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:38, September 1, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|Paper Plumm}} these galleries were split into pieces in the first place because they were too large to load efficiently or even edit. The current set-up only ensures we will have to do this again because Nintendo will not stop publishing games and assets. What would you suggest we do to ensure this does not happen? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:33, September 2, 2024 (EDT)
<s>#{{User|Jdtendo}} Listing every single poll would probably take a lot of space whereas the whole purpose of a poll proposal is bringing together many similar polls that would be too cumbersome to handle separately. I would prefer having a single proposal listed as "Determine what memes should be on the Internet references page" that users can click on to check the detailed results rather than cluttering the list with a dozen links.</s>


Hypothetically speaking, what if we split the galleries by decade AND medium? (e.g. {{fake link|Gallery:Mario artwork (media, 1981-1989)}} or {{fake link|Gallery:Bowser sprites (1991-1999)}}? {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:00, September 3, 2024 (EDT)
====Option Four====
:{{@|Arend}} I personally would not be interested in a character having so many small galleries dedicated to themselves that could otherwise be consolidated into a focused few. Additionally, your suggestion would not address {{@|EvieMaybe}}'s desire to have all assets on one page - something that I maintain is unsustainable and would have to be split anyways due to the sheer volume of material. From my perspective, we have already reached that point. The current galleries for Mario and Luigi are straight-up unusable, or at least they are on my end and I suspect I am not the alone in that. My laptop struggles loading these galleries (therefore, the point of splitting them in the first place is no longer working) and this is particularly exasperated when I try to correct a mistake and triply so if I want to preview a revision. When these galleries ''do'' load, I have difficulty finding what I want. I have been puzzled by some of the opposition and lack of support for this proposal. No sustainable alternatives have been introduced that would address the points I outlined above, and I principally do not think it is wise for us to maintain systemic policies that are unsustainable. While this proposal may not satiate everything people want in galleries, I encourage the opposition to consider that {{wp|perfect is the enemy of the good}}. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:33, September 3, 2024 (EDT)
::i'm okay with having to load two pages, personally. the issue isn't having everything you want in exactly one gallery, is not having all the stuff you DON'T want mixed in with it[[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] ([[User talk:EvieMaybe|talk]]) 18:26, September 4, 2024 (EDT)
 
===Prioritize ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch) names for all recurring ''Paper Mario'' items that appear in that game===
As opposed to their more "recent" names from ''Super Paper Mario''. For all intents and purposes, I believe ''The Thousand-Year Door''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s remake should be treated as the more "recent" game as while it is simply a remake of an older game, ''The Thousand-Year Door''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s remake also just came out this year on Nintendo's most recently released system to date, while ''Super Paper Mario'' released over 17 years ago and is currently only officially playable on now-discontinued systems.
 
To reiterate from a more practical standpoint, prioritizing the most recent original game with those items that came out 17 years ago as opposed to the very recent remake only causes unneeded confusion among users who are more likely to be looking them up in relation to the latter. I can attest to this myself: during my own playthrough of ''The Thousand-Year Door''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s remake, I consulted this wiki's pages for items multiple times and was confused as to why we were still using the now not-so-recent ''Super Paper Mario'' names for them as opposed to the ones I was seeing in-game in this very recent remake.
 
Moreover, there are some names for items in ''The Thousand-Year Door''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s remake that have been altered from both their appearances in original game and ''Super Paper Mario'' when applicable: namely all uses of "Shroom" have been changed to "Mushroom", and we ''do'' reflect those changes now in our article titles and leads, treating ''The Thousand-Year Door''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s remake as the most recent game in those instances. Now, I can understand the likely argument for using both those and the ''Super Paper Mario'' names where applicable: most of the item names in ''The Thousand-Year Door''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s remake apart from the "Shroom" stuff are unchanged from their appearances in the less recent original game, but we can reflect names unique to the more recent remake, I suppose. But that still seems somewhat arbitrary and needlessly inconsistent to me, especially in cases where the names used in the original ''The Thousand-Year Door'', ''Super Paper Mario'' and the former game's remake all differ (see [[Mushroom Fry]] and [[Mushroom Roast]]).
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|PaperSplash}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 9, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
 
====Oppose====


====Comments====
====Comments====
{{@|Camwoodstock}} — I definitely think your pitch for Option Three is better than the version I was suggesting. I'm not really sure about the pitch for Option Two, though — the letters already distinguish them, and I feel like they'd seem more like separate states rather than a "modifier" on some of the existing ones. Not to mention, wouldn't we need a darker version of every single color just in case? That's a lot of changes to make, and we'd end up running into problems with dark blue, teal, and dark teal; or "dark white", gray, and dark gray. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 03:20, March 4, 2025 (EST)


===Decide how to handle conjectural sections about ''Super Mario Galaxy'' planets/areas===
I don't quite understand option one and two, as the above rules for poll proposals state "A poll proposal closes after all of its options have been settled, and no action is taken until then. If all options fail, then nothing will be done." --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 07:09, March 4, 2025 (EST)
Yesterday, I've been trying to tag sections about unofficially named areas in ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'' with <code>{{tem|conjecture|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code> and sections about areas whose names come from development data such as internal filenames in those games with <code>{{tem|dev data|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code>, until someone undid my edits regarding the article [[Gateway Galaxy]], so I had to undo my edits regarding the articles [[Good Egg Galaxy]] and [[Honeyhive Galaxy]]. Now to me, it makes no sense for the beginning text for the Layout and Planets/Areas sections to read as follows:
:Could you explain the contradiction in greater detail? I don't see what you mean. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:01, March 4, 2025 (EST)
::The options say "The page would only contain #83A and #83B if the proposal passed right now, with #83C being added later" and "...how it handles open issues on partially closed poll proposals" there shouldn't be any instances of archiving partially closed poll proposals, they only close all at once when every entry has been resolved.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 20:07, March 4, 2025 (EST)
:::So is your position that we should use the lettering scheme from Options One and Two, but only add poll proposals to the archive page when all of their issues are closed? I don't think I agree, but I can add that as Option Five if that's what you want to vote for. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:48, March 4, 2025 (EST)


<pre>
I feel like [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals/Header&diff=prev&oldid=4772367 this] is fine. Either it's red (no change from the status quo so nothing needs to be done), gray (''some'' change was established and there is work to do), or green (some change was established and it's all done). There are other proposals where people list [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Clarify_coverage_of_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series several things] to be done, it's not that different, it's just that now we have the ability to vote on each individual thing. But in either case you just click the link to read exactly what was approved. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 10:56, March 7, 2025 (EST)
'''NOTE''': Unless otherwise noted, all names are unofficial.
</pre>


<blockquote>
On a vaguely related note, why do "tie" and "failed to reach consensus" have two separate colours in the proposal archive when the former is essentially a type of the latter? I don't really see the difference between them besides the fact that the wiki used to call them "ties". I also counted no more than four "tied" proposals in the entire archive, the last one having been in 2011, so it seems strange and confusing to still be using a separate colour for it. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:38, March 18, 2025 (EDT)
'''NOTE''': Unless otherwise noted, all names are unofficial.
:This is something I noticed as well while making the proposal — I kind of considered addressing it, but the proposal was already a bit sprawling, so bundling in a change to that seemed like a poor decision. If someone were to make a separate proposal to axe the "tie" color, I'd back it. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 14:10, March 18, 2025 (EDT)
</blockquote>


As such, I offer the following options:
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''


;Option 1: Add the <code>allnames</code> to the <code>{{tem|conjecture}}</code> template and tag layout and planets/areas sections with <code>{{tem|conjecture|allnames<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code> AND sections about areas whose names come from development data with <code>{{tem|dev data|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code>.
==Changes==
;Option 2: Add the <code>allnames</code> to the <code>{{tem|conjecture}}</code> template and tag ONLY the layout and planets/areas sections with <code>{{tem|conjecture|allnames<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code>.
===Give ''Taiko no Tatsujin'' an article===
;Option 3: ONLY tag sections regarding the unofficially named planet(s)/area with <code>{{tem|conjecture|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code> and sections about areas whose names come from development data with <code>{{tem|dev data|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code>.
''Taiko no Tatsujin'' has had numerous crossovers with the ''Mario'' franchise throughout its history. This extends to not only the songs being playable, but actual ''Mario'' characters showing up and being animated in the accompanying videos in the earlier games.
;Option 4: Do NOTHING.
 
Take a look at the following samples for the first three options:


{{hide
*The DS version has "Super Mario Bros." as a track, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=870WLPGnnKs using imagery from the games].
|show=Show sample for Option 1
*The Wii version includes "New Super Mario Bros. Wii Medley." and "[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkcrnhCfrtw Super Mario Bros.]" Notably, the videos include [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO31iswKX84 actual characters and imagery from the game showing up]. The former has nearly every enemy from the original ''Super Mario Bros.''
|hide=Hide sample for Option 1
*''Taiko no Tatsujin Wii U Version!'' has "[[Fever]]" from ''[[Dr. Mario]]''. There are also Mario and Luigi costumes for Don-chan and Katsu-chan.
|content=
*''Nintendo Switch Version!'' has "[[Jump Up, Super Star!]]" from ''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]''.
<pre>
*The 2020 version brings back "Super Mario Bros." and "Jump Up, Super Star!", also including a "Famicom Medley" track using "Fever" from ''Dr. Mario''. These tracks are present in many of the arcade versions. Playing "Super Mario Bros." will have mushrooms and [[Super Star]]s appear [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxXo0oHzZg when notes are hit].
====Layout====
*''Blue Version'' has [[Cappy]] has an equippable hat.
{{conjecture|allnames=yes|section=yes}}
*''Rhythm Festival'' has a medley of music from ''Super Mario Bros.'', re-used from earlier games.
=====Starting Planet=====
[[File:Gatewayplanet.png|200px|thumb|left|The Starting Planet]]
This is the first planet that Mario explores in the game. It is where Mario first wakes up after being blasted off [[Peach's Castle]] by [[Kamek]] in the opening cutscene. Here, he meets two yellow [[Luma]]s as well as an apricot Luma who transform into [[Star Bunny|Star Bunnies]] and asks him to play hide and seek with them. When they are all found, a large light beam goes down from the sky, and the gateway appears, and it is where Mario meets [[Rosalina]] for the first time. The planet itself has three holes in its surface (two of which connect to each other directly through the center of the planet), many small patches of flowers, two connecting [[Warp Pipe]]s, several [[rubbery bulb]]s, two small pools of water, two small cottages, a ring of vertically-positioned rock columns, and a castle-like monument on the top. The planet is also surrounded by a light blue atmosphere. Later in the game, Mario must use the power of the [[Red Star]] to collect 100 Purple Coins on this planet, enabling him to use the Red Star onboard the [[Comet Observatory]] as well. Rosalina mentions that this planet is dear to her and she looks forward to visiting it with the Lumas every one hundred years.
{{multiple image
|align=right
|direction=horizontal
|width=200
|image1=SMG Gateway Garden.png
|caption1=The Starting Planet's garden area
|image2=SMG Gateway Castle.png
|caption2=The castle structure on the Starting Planet
}}
[[Deep Dark Galaxy#Gateway Galaxy Planet|A planet]] found in the [[Deep Dark Galaxy]] resembles the Starting Planet of the Gateway Galaxy. It can be seen from the [[Deep Dark Galaxy#Wooden Planet|Wooden Planet]], as well as the [[Deep Dark Galaxy#Starting Planet|Starting Planet]]. The planet is accessible via a [[cannon]] on the latter, and is much smaller than the original one. There are three [[Goomba]]s here, and a yellow screw that can be unscrewed by [[Spin|spinning]] it, which will cause the planet to quickly shrink and disappear, at the same time revealing a large ring of [[coin]]s.


After the credits have rolled, when the player has collected 120 [[Power Star]]s and defeated [[Bowser]] for a second time, the ending sequence that plays occurs here. In the sequence, Rosalina thanks the player and says that she will watch over them from beyond the stars. She then walks into the door of the small blue-roofed cottage on the planet and comes out of the door of the Gate, thereby revealing that the two are connected. It is also revealed that the Comet Observatory is most likely hidden somewhere on the planet (although it cannot be seen when the player actively explores it), as it emerges from behind the planet after Rosalina transforms it into a comet once again and pilots it away.
''Mario'' has paid it back with the serial-numbers-filed-off ''[[Donkey Konga]]'' and [[Don-chan]] being a playable character in ''[[Mario Kart Arcade GP DX]]''. Since there's overlap between the franchises, and they've had a decent history together, I think ''Taiko'' is deserving of its own article to cover all this in one place.


=====[[Black hole|Black Hole]] Planet=====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Scrooge200}}<br>
{{dev data|section=yes}}
'''Deadline''': March 30, 2025, 23:59 GMT
[[File:Black Hole Planet.png|200px|thumb|left|[[Mario]] collecting [[Star Chip]]s on the {{conjectural|Black Hole Planet|planet}}.]]
The Black Hole Planet<ref>Name confirmed by files found on noclip. [https://noclip.website/#smg/HeavensDoorGalaxy].</ref> is a planet made of nothing more than dirt, grass and stone. There is a [[black hole]] at its center, and it is also under constant bombardment by a [[meteor]] shower. There are five yellow [[Star Chip]]s on this planet that Mario must collect in order to proceed, as well as a rock with a [[1-Up Mushroom]] on top of it.
{{br}}


=====Metal Planets=====
====Support (Bring Us One Degree of Separation Closer to Jimmy Neutron)====
[[File:SMG Grand Goomba.png|thumb|left|200px|Mario on the planet]]
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal.
[[File:Metal Planets.png|200px|thumb|The two {{conjectural|Metal Planets|planet}} in the Gateway Galaxy.]]
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us; with how many cross references there are both ways, it seems only fair.
These are two metal planets which look very similar to one another. Both planets are brown in color, and have what appears to be metallic green power cables embedded in their surfaces which snake around the planets. In addition, both planets have [[Shock Wave Generator]]s that, when spun, will send vibrations across them, stunning all enemies within range. There are many [[Goomba]]s on both of these planets, as well as several [[Crystal (Super Mario Galaxy)|crystal]]s. Also, on the second of the two is a [[Big Goomba|Grand Goomba]], the only one in the entire game. The Flipswitch Area is located inside the second Metal Planet, and is accessed via a [[Warp Pipe]].
#{{User|Hewer}} This should probably be cancelled given the crossover article proposal but I'll support just in case. I previously wasn't sure whether it would get a page under that proposal because the only crossover I knew about was Don-chan being in Mario Kart (and his tiny Smash representation in one of Pac-Man's taunts), but all of this other stuff seems very comparable to what got [[Just Dance (series)]] a page. Now we just need to figure out whether [[Mametchi|Tamagotchi]] gets one...
{{br}}
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.


=====Flipswitch Area=====
====Oppose (No More Megalovania, Please)====
[[File:Flipswitch Area.png|200px|thumb|left|The {{conjectural|Flipswitch Area|area}}, located inside the second of the two Metal Planets.]]
[[File:SMG Gateway Metal Planet Interior.png|200px|thumb|The draining device]]
When the player enters the Warp Pipe on the bottom of the second Metal Planet, he will be taken to an inverted, spherical metal chamber with many [[Goomba]]s and [[Flipswitch Panel]]s inside. The goal is to shut down the machine and save the first of seven [[Grand Star]]s in the game by activating every Flipswitch Panel found on the inside of the planet to change all of them from yellow to blue, while simultaneously avoiding the many Goombas and electric platforms. There are several coins floating in the air as well.
{{br}}
</pre>
}}


{{hide
====Comments' Perfect Math Class====
|show=Show sample for Option 2
{{@|Scrooge200}}, have you considered waiting until the proposal [[#Introducing the crossover article|immediately above]] is finished? You would not need to raise proposal for ''Taiko no Tatsujin'' at all if it were to be pass. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:23, March 16, 2025 (EDT)
|hide=Hide sample for Option 2
:Oh, I noticed that, but figured it was more for just ''Zelda''. I'm glad to see we're finally making it out of the Stone Age with our crossover coverage, though. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 15:27, March 16, 2025 (EDT)
|content=
::''Zelda'' is just the example I worked with. The proposal itself applies to all manner of crossover. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:30, March 16, 2025 (EDT)
<pre>
::{{@|Scrooge200}} By "stone age" I assume you mean it's one of the last steps to becoming a wiki centered completely on ''Super Mario''. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:38, March 16, 2025 (EDT)
====Layout====
{{conjecture|allnames=yes|section=yes}}
=====Starting Planet=====
[[File:Gatewayplanet.png|200px|thumb|left|The Starting Planet]]
This is the first planet that Mario explores in the game. It is where Mario first wakes up after being blasted off [[Peach's Castle]] by [[Kamek]] in the opening cutscene. Here, he meets two yellow [[Luma]]s as well as an apricot Luma who transform into [[Star Bunny|Star Bunnies]] and asks him to play hide and seek with them. When they are all found, a large light beam goes down from the sky, and the gateway appears, and it is where Mario meets [[Rosalina]] for the first time. The planet itself has three holes in its surface (two of which connect to each other directly through the center of the planet), many small patches of flowers, two connecting [[Warp Pipe]]s, several [[rubbery bulb]]s, two small pools of water, two small cottages, a ring of vertically-positioned rock columns, and a castle-like monument on the top. The planet is also surrounded by a light blue atmosphere. Later in the game, Mario must use the power of the [[Red Star]] to collect 100 Purple Coins on this planet, enabling him to use the Red Star onboard the [[Comet Observatory]] as well. Rosalina mentions that this planet is dear to her and she looks forward to visiting it with the Lumas every one hundred years.
{{multiple image
|align=right
|direction=horizontal
|width=200
|image1=SMG Gateway Garden.png
|caption1=The Starting Planet's garden area
|image2=SMG Gateway Castle.png
|caption2=The castle structure on the Starting Planet
}}
[[Deep Dark Galaxy#Gateway Galaxy Planet|A planet]] found in the [[Deep Dark Galaxy]] resembles the Starting Planet of the Gateway Galaxy. It can be seen from the [[Deep Dark Galaxy#Wooden Planet|Wooden Planet]], as well as the [[Deep Dark Galaxy#Starting Planet|Starting Planet]]. The planet is accessible via a [[cannon]] on the latter, and is much smaller than the original one. There are three [[Goomba]]s here, and a yellow screw that can be unscrewed by [[Spin|spinning]] it, which will cause the planet to quickly shrink and disappear, at the same time revealing a large ring of [[coin]]s.


After the credits have rolled, when the player has collected 120 [[Power Star]]s and defeated [[Bowser]] for a second time, the ending sequence that plays occurs here. In the sequence, Rosalina thanks the player and says that she will watch over them from beyond the stars. She then walks into the door of the small blue-roofed cottage on the planet and comes out of the door of the Gate, thereby revealing that the two are connected. It is also revealed that the Comet Observatory is most likely hidden somewhere on the planet (although it cannot be seen when the player actively explores it), as it emerges from behind the planet after Rosalina transforms it into a comet once again and pilots it away.
===Merge moves exclusive to forms with their respective forms, leaving main article links if they are part of another article. Also replace the Fly article with a list.===
Mario’s many, many forms have granted him oh so many forms. These forms grant him many new moves, like [[Cape Mario|swinging a cape]], [[Flying Squirrel Mario|jumping in the air]], or even a slew of [[Link|Link’s moves]]! Now, how many of these have articles? (Excluding [[Tail whip]])


=====[[Black hole|Black Hole]] Planet=====
If you guessed zero, +/- Tail whip, you’re right. This makes sense: If I go to an article on a form, then I want to see all of that form’s nuances. What good is it to have some parts of the benefits conferred by a power-up on a separate page? Imagine if [[Builder Mario]] had an article dedicated to swinging its hammer, a core portion of the abilities Builder Mario grants. Imagine if [[Mole Yoshi]] had an entire article dedicated to its ability to dig, despite that being the sole move it can do with a button press and digging being its entire point of existing. Imagine if operating the [[Super Pickax]] had an entire article separate from the Super Pickax, even though the player doesn’t even have the choice to hold a Super Pickax without using it. (Yes, the act of using a Super Pickax has a name!)
[[File:Black Hole Planet.png|200px|thumb|left|[[Mario]] collecting [[Star Chip]]s on the {{conjectural|Black Hole Planet|planet}}.]]
The Black Hole Planet<ref>Name confirmed by files found on noclip. [https://noclip.website/#smg/HeavensDoorGalaxy].</ref> is a planet made of nothing more than dirt, grass and stone. There is a [[black hole]] at its center, and it is also under constant bombardment by a [[meteor]] shower. There are five yellow [[Star Chip]]s on this planet that Mario must collect in order to proceed, as well as a rock with a [[1-Up Mushroom]] on top of it.
{{br}}


=====Metal Planets=====
But we’re already doing this, just under the veneer of putting it under existing articles. These articles, for example:
[[File:SMG Grand Goomba.png|thumb|left|200px|Mario on the planet]]
[[File:Metal Planets.png|200px|thumb|The two {{conjectural|Metal Planets|planet}} in the Gateway Galaxy.]]
These are two metal planets which look very similar to one another. Both planets are brown in color, and have what appears to be metallic green power cables embedded in their surfaces which snake around the planets. In addition, both planets have [[Shock Wave Generator]]s that, when spun, will send vibrations across them, stunning all enemies within range. There are many [[Goomba]]s on both of these planets, as well as several [[Crystal (Super Mario Galaxy)|crystal]]s. Also, on the second of the two is a [[Big Goomba|Grand Goomba]], the only one in the entire game. The Flipswitch Area is located inside the second Metal Planet, and is accessed via a [[Warp Pipe]].
{{br}}


=====Flipswitch Area=====
*[[Shell dash]] ([[Shell Mario]])
[[File:Flipswitch Area.png|200px|thumb|left|The {{conjectural|Flipswitch Area|area}}, located inside the second of the two Metal Planets.]]  
*[[Dive]] (Claw dives of [[Cat Mario]])
[[File:SMG Gateway Metal Planet Interior.png|200px|thumb|The draining device]]
*[[Drill Spin]] ([[Propeller Mario]])
When the player enters the Warp Pipe on the bottom of the second Metal Planet, he will be taken to an inverted, spherical metal chamber with many [[Goomba]]s and [[Flipswitch Panel]]s inside. The goal is to shut down the machine and save the first of seven [[Grand Star]]s in the game by activating every Flipswitch Panel found on the inside of the planet to change all of them from yellow to blue, while simultaneously avoiding the many Goombas and electric platforms. There are several coins floating in the air as well.
{{br}}
</pre>
}}


{{hide
I think this is a flawed line of thinking. For a much as shell dashing and Drill Spinning are moves that can be used by specific forms, they are also benefits conferred by specific forms and power-ups. We should be focusing efforts to improve coverage for such moves on the page for the power-up, as someone who wants to learn everything Shell Mario can do probably shouldn’t have to also check shell dash. Shell Mario should say that shell dashing enemies doesn’t start a point chain. Shell Mario should say if how many hits it takes to defeat a boss with the shell dash. Shell Mario should mention the unique movement opportunities/restrictions of the shell dash compared two base Mario. There shouldn’t be two different articles going into technical detail on a single topic if we can help it, not least because of the potential of a correction to one article not being applied to the other. And if we can only have one super detailed article, then it ought to be the form.
|show=Show sample for Option 3
|hide=Hide sample for Option 3
|content=
<pre>
====Layout====
=====Starting Planet=====
{{conjecture|section=yes}}
[[File:Gatewayplanet.png|200px|thumb|left|The Starting Planet]]
This is the first planet that Mario explores in the game. It is where Mario first wakes up after being blasted off [[Peach's Castle]] by [[Kamek]] in the opening cutscene. Here, he meets two yellow [[Luma]]s as well as an apricot Luma who transform into [[Star Bunny|Star Bunnies]] and asks him to play hide and seek with them. When they are all found, a large light beam goes down from the sky, and the gateway appears, and it is where Mario meets [[Rosalina]] for the first time. The planet itself has three holes in its surface (two of which connect to each other directly through the center of the planet), many small patches of flowers, two connecting [[Warp Pipe]]s, several [[rubbery bulb]]s, two small pools of water, two small cottages, a ring of vertically-positioned rock columns, and a castle-like monument on the top. The planet is also surrounded by a light blue atmosphere. Later in the game, Mario must use the power of the [[Red Star]] to collect 100 Purple Coins on this planet, enabling him to use the Red Star onboard the [[Comet Observatory]] as well. Rosalina mentions that this planet is dear to her and she looks forward to visiting it with the Lumas every one hundred years.
{{multiple image
|align=right
|direction=horizontal
|width=200
|image1=SMG Gateway Garden.png
|caption1=The Starting Planet's garden area
|image2=SMG Gateway Castle.png
|caption2=The castle structure on the Starting Planet
}}
[[Deep Dark Galaxy#Gateway Galaxy Planet|A planet]] found in the [[Deep Dark Galaxy]] resembles the Starting Planet of the Gateway Galaxy. It can be seen from the [[Deep Dark Galaxy#Wooden Planet|Wooden Planet]], as well as the [[Deep Dark Galaxy#Starting Planet|Starting Planet]]. The planet is accessible via a [[cannon]] on the latter, and is much smaller than the original one. There are three [[Goomba]]s here, and a yellow screw that can be unscrewed by [[Spin|spinning]] it, which will cause the planet to quickly shrink and disappear, at the same time revealing a large ring of [[coin]]s.


After the credits have rolled, when the player has collected 120 [[Power Star]]s and defeated [[Bowser]] for a second time, the ending sequence that plays occurs here. In the sequence, Rosalina thanks the player and says that she will watch over them from beyond the stars. She then walks into the door of the small blue-roofed cottage on the planet and comes out of the door of the Gate, thereby revealing that the two are connected. It is also revealed that the Comet Observatory is most likely hidden somewhere on the planet (although it cannot be seen when the player actively explores it), as it emerges from behind the planet after Rosalina transforms it into a comet once again and pilots it away.
Imagine if we extended the current situation to other named moves of forms? Would [[Mega Yoshi]] be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Tail Swipe, on the basis of it having the technical detail of stalling Yoshi’s fall? Would [[Penguin Mario]] be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Belly Slide? If we gave the field form of [[Luiginoid Formation#Ball|Luiginary Ball]] a page, would it be.a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Ball Hammer?


=====[[Black hole|Black Hole]] Planet=====
As such, this proposal aims to just move all the technical details of moves that can only be performed by power-up forms to the form’s page. The section remains, because it’s a part of the move’s conceptual history, using a <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> article link to move over to the form for the nitty gritty on how everything about that specific implementation works. For reference look at how [[Dash]] handles the [[Dash (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)]] ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dash&diff=4431004&oldid=4421941 Relevant Edit]) and the [[Spin Dash]] ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dash&diff=4435629&oldid=4431024 Relevant Edit]). Instead of restating the entire move but trying to be a little looser about the mechanics than the main article, it has a note saying “this exists and is a version of the thing this article is about”, and then sends the reader to the main article. It's a more efficient use of bits and our readers' time.
{{dev data|section=yes}}
[[File:Black Hole Planet.png|200px|thumb|left|[[Mario]] collecting [[Star Chip]]s on the {{conjectural|Black Hole Planet|planet}}.]]
The Black Hole Planet<ref>Name confirmed by files found on noclip. [https://noclip.website/#smg/HeavensDoorGalaxy].</ref> is a planet made of nothing more than dirt, grass and stone. There is a [[black hole]] at its center, and it is also under constant bombardment by a [[meteor]] shower. There are five yellow [[Star Chip]]s on this planet that Mario must collect in order to proceed, as well as a rock with a [[1-Up Mushroom]] on top of it.
{{br}}


=====Metal Planets=====
This does not affect moves of non-powered up characters that are modified by the power-up. Flying Squirrel Mario’s high Spin Jumps stay on [[Spin Jump]], Frog Mario's and Penguin Mario’s swimming stay on [[Swim]], Tanooki Mario’s Tail Spin stays on [[Roll]], and so on. This is in addition to these modified versions of moves being written about on their form’s pages. (No, shell dash is not a modified dash. It's a new action that dashing happens to trigger, as indicated by the requirement of dashing and alternate method of crouching on a slope) This proposal does not affect projectiles whose existence is broader than their associated power-up, namely [[Fireball]], [[Ice Ball]], [[Hammer]], and [[Bubble]]. Builder Boxes are [[Crate]]s, so they fall into this bucket. (Superball would be included, but it was merged with [[Superball Mario]] years ago and is not included.) This also does not affect character/power-up hybrids. [[Yoshi]]'s [[Swallow]], [[Egg Throw]], et al, [[Baby DK]]'s [[DK Dash Attack]], [[Diddy Kong]]'s [[Diddy Attack]] and [[Barrel Jet]], and [[Rambi]]'s [[Super move|Supercharge]] and [[Charge (Donkey Kong Country series)|Charge]] are examples of these exclusions. This is because in some cases the character can use the move without being a power-up, usually because they are playable in a non-power-up capacity. While this isn’t true in every case, it makes sense to extend this grace to all character/power-up hybrids. [[SMB2 Mario]] is bizarre, but [[Crouching High Jump|charge jump]] is ultimately unaffected. It’s a move of the normal player characters in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' proper, and the article doesn’t have a ''Super Mario Maker 2'' section to cut down anyway. I’d advocate for adding more charge jump content to the SMB2 Mario article, but that’s not part of the proposal.
{{conjecture|section=yes}}
[[File:SMG Grand Goomba.png|thumb|left|200px|Mario on the planet]]
[[File:Metal Planets.png|200px|thumb|The two {{conjectural|Metal Planets|planet}} in the Gateway Galaxy.]]
These are two metal planets which look very similar to one another. Both planets are brown in color, and have what appears to be metallic green power cables embedded in their surfaces which snake around the planets. In addition, both planets have [[Shock Wave Generator]]s that, when spun, will send vibrations across them, stunning all enemies within range. There are many [[Goomba]]s on both of these planets, as well as several [[Crystal (Super Mario Galaxy)|crystal]]s. Also, on the second of the two is a [[Big Goomba|Grand Goomba]], the only one in the entire game. The Flipswitch Area is located inside the second Metal Planet, and is accessed via a [[Warp Pipe]].
{{br}}


=====Flipswitch Area=====
Perceptive readers probably realize that this policy would gut [[Fly]], an article entirely about a recurring skill of certain forms/capability of items. An article consisting entirely of <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> templates would be bad, right? Au contraire, for this is by design. Fly is trapped in a purgatory where it can’t actually say anything meaningful because all of the data for each of the forms, abilities, and items it’s trying to cover should be on the articles for those things. So it’s a listicle of every game you can fly in with cliff notes about how they work. I guess its a directory for all of the flying skills, but having it be a traditional article makes using Fly as a directory inefficient. At this point, we should embrace the list structure and use it for something lists are good for, comparisons between games. I have compiled a list version of Fly on a [[User:Salmancer/List of methods of flight|userpage]], based on the existing [[List of power-ups]]. It’s messy and incomplete but I think it’s better than the Fly article. Should this proposal pass, this list will replace the article.  
{{conjecture|section=yes}}
[[File:Flipswitch Area.png|200px|thumb|left|The {{conjectural|Flipswitch Area|area}}, located inside the second of the two Metal Planets.]]
[[File:SMG Gateway Metal Planet Interior.png|200px|thumb|The draining device]]
When the player enters the Warp Pipe on the bottom of the second Metal Planet, he will be taken to an inverted, spherical metal chamber with many [[Goomba]]s and [[Flipswitch Panel]]s inside. The goal is to shut down the machine and save the first of seven [[Grand Star]]s in the game by activating every Flipswitch Panel found on the inside of the planet to change all of them from yellow to blue, while simultaneously avoiding the many Goombas and electric platforms. There are several coins floating in the air as well.
{{br}}
</pre>
}}


Likewise, the source of the {{tem|conjecture}} template reads as follows:
[[Tail whip]] was created after I planned this proposal but before I proposed it. If this proposal passes, it gets merged into [[Raccoon Mario]] for 2D games and [[Tanooki Mario]] for 3D games. This policy devastates Tail Whip in the same way Fly is. Tail Whip can keep its categories as a redirect.  While the move may be used by multiple forms, the most basic forms with the attack are more than capable of storing Tail whip's mechanics for the improved versions of [[White Raccoon Mario]] and [[White Tanooki Mario]] to refer to later. This matches how Penguin Mario defers to Ice Mario and Ice Ball. [[Tail]]s are also on Tail Whip, but Tail handles using Tail and has no need to be listed on another article. Even if we wanted a complete list of games with with tail attacks, Raccoon Mario already mentions Tail. (The situation is also similar to [[Cape]], which used to compile [[Cape Mario]] and [[Superstar Mario]] into a listicle before this [[Talk:Cape#Clean up this article to include only information in the Super Smash Bros. series|proposal]] reduced it to the Smash Bros. attack.


<pre>
Oh yeah and I guess [[Strike of Intuition]] is caught in the crosshairs of this since it is a move exclusive to [[Detective Peach]]. Given everything else, it gets merged too.
<div class="notice-template maintenance show" style="background:#fff7f7;border:1px solid #b77">
The title of this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} is '''''[[MarioWiki:Conjectural names|conjectural]]'''''{{#if:{{{derived|}}}|, but the current name has been '''derived''' from some available official information|<nowiki>;</nowiki> an official name for the {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}'s subject has not been found, so it has been given a fitting title by the editors}}. If an official name is found, then the {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} should be {{#if:{{{section|}}}|changed|moved}} to its appropriate title.
</div><includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with {{#if:{{{derived|}}}|derived|conjectural}} {{#if:{{{section|}}}|sections|titles}}]]}}</includeonly>
</pre>


However, once this proposal passes with either Option 1 or Option 2, the source will read as follows:
'''Proposer''': {{User|Salmancer}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 31, 2025, 23:59 GMT


<pre>
====Merge moves and Listify Fly: Merge moves to forms, and convert [[Fly]] into a list====
<div class="notice-template maintenance show" style="background:#fff7f7;border:1px solid #b77">
#{{User|Salmancer}} Per proposal.
{{#if:{{{allnames|}}}|The titles of all sections within|The title of}} this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} {{#if:{{{allnames|}}}|are|is}} '''''[[MarioWiki:Conjectural names|conjectural]]'''''{{#if:{{{allnames|}}}|, unless otherwise noted}}{{#if:{{{derived|}}}|, but the current name has been '''derived''' from some available official information|<nowiki>;</nowiki> {{#if:{{{allnames|}}}|official names for specific sections' subjects have|an official name for the {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}'s subject has}} not been found, so it has been given a fitting title by the editors}}. {{#if:{{{allnames|}}}|If an official name is found for one of its sections, then it should be changed to its appropriate title|If an official name is found, then the {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} should be {{#if:{{{section|}}}|changed|moved}} to its appropriate title}}.
</div><includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with {{#if:{{{derived|}}}|derived|conjectural}} {{#if:{{{section|}}}{{{allnames|}}}|sections|titles}}]]}}</includeonly>
</pre>


As such, putting <code>{{tem|conjecture|allnames<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes|section<nowiki>=</nowiki>yes}}</code> will result in this:
====Merge moves, Fly is free: Merge moves to forms, but keep Fly as is====


<div class="notice-template maintenance show" style="background:#fff7f7;border:1px solid #b77">
====Clip Fly's wings: Do not merge moves to forms, change Fly from an article to a list====
The titles of all sections within this section are '''''[[MarioWiki:Conjectural names|conjectural]]''''', unless otherwise noted; official names for specific sections' subjects have not been found, so it has been given a fitting title by the editors. If an official name is found for one of its sections, then it should be changed to its appropriate title.
</div>


That way, we'll be able to remove "<code><nowiki>'''NOTE''': Unless otherwise noted, all names are unofficial.</nowiki></code>" from the Planets/Areas section on every ''Super Mario Galaxy'' galaxy page in favor of the <code>{{tem|dev data}}</code> and/or <code>{{tem|conjecture}}</code> template(s).
====Oppose: Status quo====
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Many of the moves in question are used by multiple forms, <s>so attempting to merge them to all separately would violate [[Mariowiki:Once and only once]]</s> {{color|purple|EDIT: which makes determining appearances of the move across different games more difficult to find}}. Furthermore, we do not merge ''character''-specific moves to their respective pages (other than non-''Mario'' characters in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series) - for instance, look at [[Scuttle]] and [[Flutter Jump]] - so why should we do so with forms?
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I don't think we cover moves and other actions particularly well, and I would rather see what that looks like before proposing mergers. Moves are not strictly the same as the form itself (i.e. Flying Squirrel Mario, Power Squirrel Mario, and captured Glydon can all "glide"), and it would be nice to see detail on what the moves are in isolation. Sometimes different power-uped forms perform the same move. A quick look through the fly article indicates there are things lumped together there that really aren't the same thing.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all. the current state of the wiki's move coverage just isn't good enough right now to determine whether this proposal would have any benefits. would love to see this proposal again in the future when we have more ground to stand on, but it's not the time right now.


'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
====Comments (Merge moves of forms to forms even if they are non-unique and replace Fly with a list)====
'''Deadline''': September 10, 2024, 23:59 GMT
I am sorry this proposal planned for a while is going to merge an article that was just made. It kind of jumped further up my list of priorities given I don't want people to put hard work into adding to Tail whip if I'm about to try to merge it. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 18:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


====Option 1====
Question; would this merge [[Fireball Punch]], and would this failing result in re-instating [[Talk:Dangan Mario|Dangan Mario]]? These manga "forms" are kind of an edge case. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:23, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} My primary choice.
:Oh dear manga questions. From what I understand of things, I think nothing should happen either way. Dangan Mario was an article as a form, so unless it's getting reevaluated to be a named move it stays where it lies. Fireball Punch is tricky. The thing is that this proposal exists because of pressures from the medium of video games. Fireball Punch is from a linear narrative story, there's not really much of a benefit readers gain from merging Fireball Punch because odds are someone looking at Super Mario Wiki to read about Fireball Mario doesn't need to know what a Fireball Punch is soon after. They might not even be reading the fifth chapter of Volume 1, the only place with a Fireball Punch. You can hardly consider the Fireball Punch to be a core part of Fireball Mario like all of the moves involved in the proposal. Fireball Punch is free from this proposal, though someone else might think the lack of length means it should be merged into Fireball Mario given this proposal is merging many longer articles or sections of articles into their home forms. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 18:56, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


====Option 2====
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} for your own sake, you should know "once and only once" as a strict policy has been [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Once_and_only_once&diff=4723954&oldid=4372233 retired]. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:18, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:Thanks, wish I'd known that before. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:30, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


====Option 3====
Characters aren't forms, so their moves are unaffected by this proposal, which means Scuttle isn't involved, Character/power-ups are unaffected, so Flutter Jump also isn't affected and you can't loophole abuse your way to merging Scuttle through the [[Luigi Cap]]. Forms that are improved versions of other forms already defer to the base form for unchanged abilities they inherit. Ice Mario has two paragraphs dedicated to using Ice Balls See example text of everything Penguin Mario has to say about Ice Balls..
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} My secondary choice.
<blockquote>After Mario has become this form, he can throw Ice Balls at enemies and freeze them. Mario can then use the frozen enemies as platforms or pick them up and throw them against the wall or other enemies. </blockquote> - [[Penguin Mario]]
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I don't see any particular reason we would need an entire feature of these templates just for Galaxy's planet lists. The fact of the matter is: these planets are using conjectural or dev data–derived names. That's what the templates are for. I find the argument that they're only for situations editors will be able to fix wildly unconvincing considering I'd wager '''over two-thirds''' of [[:Category:Articles with conjectural titles]] are things we're never going to see again. The [["Deep Cuts" Toad]] is never gonna show up again. We're never gonna get official names for [[Patty's mother and father]]. You look under a random letter, it's probably something we're never going to see the name of. The template is just blatantly not used for that.
The system works! It's repeated for [[White Raccoon Mario]] in relation to Raccoon Mario, as per the line, "It gives the player Raccoon Mario's abilities, causes the P-Meter to charge more quickly, allows the player to run and stand on water (like Mini Mario), and grants invincibility for the stage". It's also done for [[Power Squirrel Mario]] to [[Flying Squirrel Mario]], with "As Power Squirrel Mario, Mario has all of the abilities of Flying Squirrel Mario, though he never loses the ability to glide and can perform Flying Squirrel Jumps continuously without landing". [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:35, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


====Option 4====
"List of methods of flight" as a name for the userpage was designed to be aware that not everything on Fly is the same kind of move. (and also it managed to morph into a list of all ways to get from point A to point B if point B is higher than point A... and then an extra addendum for hovering over hazards.) Would it be better if it were placed in mainspace as "List of methods of flight"? [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 19:47, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


====Comments====
Regarding your saying that tail whip's info would be moved to Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games, would that not mean that Tanooki Mario's page would not discuss the tail whip until ''Super Mario 3D Land'', despite it being usable by that form in ''Super Mario Bros. 3''? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:53, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
{{@|Ahemtoday}} I think the difference here and the other conjectural articles is that the planetary bodies in galaxies do not just "lack" publicly accessible names - they are straight up not supposed to have names. The Shogakukan guidebook for ''Mario Galaxy'' does not give planets name. The game does not give planets name. The instruction booklet does not give planets name. The only "source" that applies discrete names for planets are from the developers and we have no reason to think these were intended to be the planets. The These galaxy articles are generally a bit outdated, and I think the mistake in the first place was suggesting that ''some'' of the planets have real names "except where otherwise noted." They largely do not. I think it would would healthier to recognize that they are just different sections of a greater whole, much like areas in courses for the earlier 3D games, and apply titles accordingly. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:44, September 3, 2024 (EDT)
:Tanooki Mario is already doing exactly that. I don't see anything that makes the article hard to follow, short of it going "there is mandatory reading before reading this article." Which White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario have been doing as well. It's fine. <blockquote>In this form, he can turn into an invulnerable statue by holding +Control Pad down and pressing B Button at the same time, '''in addition to using Raccoon Mario's moves''', making it an improved version of Raccoon Mario. </blockquote> - [[Tanooki Mario]], ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' section.
:Hm. I still think them not being supposed to have names is true of much of that category — the ones on particular Toads in modern (well, maybe I have to specify Sticker Star through Origami King these days) Paper Mario come to mind. You raise a point about the article structure not matching the reality of the situation, but as long as the articles are going to have separate subheaders for each planet — and I'm not certain it would be sensible to do otherwise — I think we need to treat their appellations the standard way. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:35, September 3, 2024 (EDT)
:<blockquote>However, the form's mechanics are different from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', as while Mario can still tail whip (by pressing {{button|3ds|X}} or {{button|3ds|Y}}) and glide (now done by holding {{button|3ds|A}} or {{button|3ds|B}}, as with [[Cape Mario|Caped Mario]], rather than tapping the buttons), he cannot fly during gameplay. </blockquote> - [[Tanooki Mario]], ''Super Mario 3D Land'' section.
:Uh, filler text for sig. I guess I'm advocating for building the ''3D Land'' text up more, since that game shouldn't be deferring to Raccoon Mario as it sort of does now. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 20:05, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::But how is it superior to do so compared to just having an article for the move? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:::Hypothetical: "Wow! Tanooki Mario is so cool! What does he do?/I just beat ''3D Land'', is there any nuance to it I missed?/Are there any bugs in 3D Land I can exploit with it? I know, I'll go to the [[Tanooki Mario]] page on Super Mario Wiki!"
:::In the current wiki, the three hypothetical people with varying interest in Super Mario read both an article on Tanooki Mario and an article on [[Tail whip]] to find everything they want to know. This proposal wants to make all of them only read one article, Tanooki Mario. I think this is better because it saves them the additional click and additional loading time and appeals to lower attention spans. I value these hypothetical readers over the hypothetical reader who is a Mario historian who wants to see the evolution of Tail whip across every game of the franchise. Keep in mind, redirects exist so the earlier three hypotheticals can mostly get to the right page if they zig where I think they'd zag and search for a move name. Okay except for Tail whip in specific because of the 2D/3D split, oof moment. I guess disambiguation pages still let my example work since while there would still be two pages to look at the first of them would be short and quick to load because its a disambig and therefore still superior to having Tail whip as full article alongside Raccoon Mario and Tanooki Mario. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 20:59, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::::"Gee, I wonder if that cool thing Tanooki Mario does appears in any other games for any other forms?" This is the more likely question that would be asked. Which is why the move page makes more sense. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:01, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
:::::I think my system still lets that person get to the answers reasonably intuitively. Tanooki Mario says it's super duper Raccoon Mario, so navigating to that page seems reasonable if one wants more tail whipping action. From Raccoon Mario they'll hit Tail. The only odd one out is ''Mario Kart'' Super Leaf, which is exclusively covered on Super Leaf, except thanks to Tanooki Mario being playable in ''Mario Kart Tour'' with the Super Leaf as his special skill that hypothetical person should still hit Super Leaf. We could just add a ''Mario Kart'' series "sentence long section with a <nowiki>{{main}}</nowiki> link" to Raccoon Mario to patch that hole up, and maybe note that giving Tanooki Mario the Super Leaf as a special skill closely reflects the platforming video games, meaning we have all the links the Tail whip article would have without needing to make a Tail whip article.[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:22, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
::::::IMO this just sounds like a lot of confounding mental gymnastics to me and just having a page for the move removes most of the leaps of logic and assumptions on what people will and will not know. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:02, March 17, 2025 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 14:10, March 18, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Wednesday, March 19th, 04:52 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
  2. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  3. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."

Poll proposal formatting

As an alternative to the basic proposal format, users may choose to create a poll proposal when one larger issue can be broken down into multiple sub-issues that can be resolved independently of each other. In a poll proposal, each option is essentially its own mini-proposal with a deadline and Support/Oppose subheadings. The rules above apply to each option as if it were a its a two-option proposal: users may vote Support or Oppose on any number of options they wish, and individual options may close early or be extended separately from the rest. If an option fails to achieve quorum or reach a consensus after three extensions, then the status quo wins for that option by default. If all options fail, then nothing will be done.

To create a poll proposal, copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the option deadlines will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}

====[option title (e.g. Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 3)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

For the purposes of the ongoing proposals list, a poll proposal's deadline is the latest deadline of any ongoing option(s). A poll proposal is archived after all of its options have settled, and it is listed as one single proposal in the archive. It is considered to have "passed" if one or more options were approved by voters (resulting in a change from the status quo), and it is considered to have "failed" if all options were rejected by voters and no change in the status quo was made.

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{ongoing TPP}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles and Super Mario Run.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Split Mario & Luigi badges and remaining accessories, Camwoodstock (ended February 1, 2025)
Merge Chef Torte and Apprentice (Torte), Camwoodstock (ended February 3, 2025)
Merge intro/outro sections, rename Gameplay section to "Overview" for Mario Party minigame articles, ToxBoxity64 (ended March 1, 2025)
Implement crossover articles, Nintendo101 (ended March 17, 2025)
Add headings for first topics of talk pages that lack one, Jdtendo (ended March 17, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Merge Wiggler Family to Dimble Wood, Camwoodstock (ended January 11, 2025)
Create a catch-all Poltergust article, Blinker (ended January 21, 2025)
Give the Cluck-A-Pop Prizes articles, Camwoodstock (ended January 31, 2025)
Reverse the proposal to trim White Shy Guy, Waluigi Time (ended February 8, 2025)
Split Animal Crossing (game), Kaptain Skurvy (ended February 12, 2025)
Split the modes in the Battles page, Mario (ended February 15, 2025)
Count ongoing serialized comics for latest appearances, Rykitu (ended March 2, 2025)
Split Toad wearing headphones off from Jammin' Toad, PrincessPeachFan (ended March 7, 2025)
Split Super Mario Maker helmets from Buzzy Shell and Spiny Shell (red), PopitTart (ended March 12, 2025)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

Establish a format for poll proposals on the archive lists

Something that's slipped through the cracks when we invented poll proposals was what we do when we add them to these pages. We can't simply have one link to the poll proposal — the entire purpose of the format is that different parts of it can pass and fail independently of one another. What color do we put a proposal where one thing fails and another thing succeeds in?

I have several pitches for you.

OPTION ZERO
Do nothing. I'm putting this at the front because I want to leave room for any good-sounding solutions beyond the four I'm about to suggest. It's here on the proposal at all because I'm pretty sure I'm legally obligated to put it here, but I'll be honest — I'm not entirely sure what this winning would... mean. Our hand will eventually be forced when our first poll proposal fully resolves, so a format will be established one way or the other.

EDIT: It has been helpfully pointed out that there is a current policy — they are red if they all issues fail, gray if at least one passes and is unimplemented, and green if at least one passes and all issues are implemented. A "one issue changes the color" kind of rule. It's definitely not insensible, but I feel that we could be conveying more information. Still, even if this if the "fail option", we have a policy now, so I got what I wanted even if this one wins.

OPTION ONE
The different issues of a poll proposal share a number corresponding to when the first issue closes. They're listed separately, and distinguished from each other via letters. As an example, the three parts of the Brown Yoshi proposal would slot in at #83A, #83B, and #83C. (That would shove some other proposals down; we could also just append them to the end of the list like normal and brush off the inconsistency if y'all prefer.)

The Brown Yoshi proposal is also a handy demonstration of an edge case we have to contend with — if this proposal passed right now, we would list #83A as red and #83B as gray, but what would happen with #83C, which is still ongoing? This is the aspect on which Options One and Two differ. In Option One, issues are not added to the archive page until they close. The page would only contain #83A and #83B if the proposal passed right now, with #83C being added later

I would like to note that the Brown Yoshi proposal is a remarkably well-behaved example. If the issues were ordered differently, we may at one point have #83A and #83C on the list with no #83B until later.

OPTION TWO
Option Two is identical to Option One except in how it handles open issues on partially closed poll proposals. In this option, they are added to the list alongside the other issues, and marked with a new color — let's say black.

This prevents the awkward gaps we would be susceptible to in Option One, but it is introducing a whole color for a temporary edge case.

OPTION THREE
Option Three is simpler. We create a new color in the archive for poll proposals — I guess let's say black again. Poll proposals get added to the archive when all issues on them are closed.

This saves space (the other options will have to give fourteen entries to this proposal, but it means the entry on the list doesn't reflect anything about any individual issue's status, such as whether it's been implemented or not.

EDIT: Camwoodstock's pitch below of using three colors (and, implicitly, adding the poll proposal to the archive when it has any closed issues) doesn't entirely eliminate that negative, but it does seem much more useful than just having the one color.

OPTION FOUR
Option Four is simpler still. Each issue is treated as if it were an entirely separate proposal. Each gets numbered and appended to the list when it closes regardless of what anything else in the poll proposal is up to.

The negative of this way of doing it is that the issues of a poll proposal may end up strewn about the list in a way that doesn't really reflect that they're a related thing.

Proposer: Ahemtoday (talk)
Deadline: March 18, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Option Zero

  1. Jdtendo (talk) Per Porple "Steve" Montage in the comments.
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Porple.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) perple montage
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Porple in the comments, though admittedly this is more of a secondary option to our more robust version of Option Three we pitched. Status quo isn't the worst thing in the world, and we do acknowledge our more robust solution of "dark colors" may be a bit harder to convey as we've been slowly rolling out... Well, a dark mode for the whole wiki. (If it was down to us, the poll proposals would use lighter colors in dark mode, before you ask; of course, if that option somehow wins, we'd be down to help fine-tune it.)
  5. Arend (talk) Per Porple.
  6. Nintendo101 (talk) Per porplemontage.
  7. Salmancer (talk) Oh, huh. I suppose this is a solved problem then.

Option One

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) It's either this or Option Two for me — it's important to me that the issues end up next to each other on the archive and that the status of each one is visible on the page.
  2. Salmancer (talk) There's no rule saying a poll proposal has to be for small things, since part of the premise was reducing the need for large numbers of combination options. There could be poll proposals that have wide scopes, and as such I think we're going to have to stomach the poll proposals with 10+ proposals in them to make it easier to track policy without thumbing through old proposal pages. Also an archive is for the past, not the present.

Option Two

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) See my note about Option One.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary option, but we do think darker shades of the colors (a-la our pitch for Option Three) would be nice. Helps distinguish at a glance what was a poll proposal.

Option Three

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) We would like to pitch a more sophisticated variant of this; 3 new colors. One for a poll that has concluded, one for one that's partially ongoing, and one for a poll that has been partially overturned by a future proposal. Maybe dark green, dark gray/maybe a de-saturated dark green a-la the Shroom Spotlight template, and a dark yellow? The darker colors, of course, to contrast with the non-poll proposals. (On dark mode, we'd probably make these lighter, rather than darker, provided we actually even add dark mode compatibility to the proposal archive colors.)
  2. Rykitu (talk) Per all.
  3. Ahemtoday (talk) I definitely see the appeal in having poll proposals under a singular listing, but I think they'd be better served by having one or multiple new colors rather than using the standard red and green.

#Jdtendo (talk) Listing every single poll would probably take a lot of space whereas the whole purpose of a poll proposal is bringing together many similar polls that would be too cumbersome to handle separately. I would prefer having a single proposal listed as "Determine what memes should be on the Internet references page" that users can click on to check the detailed results rather than cluttering the list with a dozen links.

Option Four

Comments

@Camwoodstock — I definitely think your pitch for Option Three is better than the version I was suggesting. I'm not really sure about the pitch for Option Two, though — the letters already distinguish them, and I feel like they'd seem more like separate states rather than a "modifier" on some of the existing ones. Not to mention, wouldn't we need a darker version of every single color just in case? That's a lot of changes to make, and we'd end up running into problems with dark blue, teal, and dark teal; or "dark white", gray, and dark gray. Ahemtoday (talk) 03:20, March 4, 2025 (EST)

I don't quite understand option one and two, as the above rules for poll proposals state "A poll proposal closes after all of its options have been settled, and no action is taken until then. If all options fail, then nothing will be done." --PopitTart (talk) 07:09, March 4, 2025 (EST)

Could you explain the contradiction in greater detail? I don't see what you mean. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:01, March 4, 2025 (EST)
The options say "The page would only contain #83A and #83B if the proposal passed right now, with #83C being added later" and "...how it handles open issues on partially closed poll proposals" there shouldn't be any instances of archiving partially closed poll proposals, they only close all at once when every entry has been resolved.--PopitTart (talk) 20:07, March 4, 2025 (EST)
So is your position that we should use the lettering scheme from Options One and Two, but only add poll proposals to the archive page when all of their issues are closed? I don't think I agree, but I can add that as Option Five if that's what you want to vote for. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:48, March 4, 2025 (EST)

I feel like this is fine. Either it's red (no change from the status quo so nothing needs to be done), gray (some change was established and there is work to do), or green (some change was established and it's all done). There are other proposals where people list several things to be done, it's not that different, it's just that now we have the ability to vote on each individual thing. But in either case you just click the link to read exactly what was approved. --Steve (talk) Get Firefox 10:56, March 7, 2025 (EST)

On a vaguely related note, why do "tie" and "failed to reach consensus" have two separate colours in the proposal archive when the former is essentially a type of the latter? I don't really see the difference between them besides the fact that the wiki used to call them "ties". I also counted no more than four "tied" proposals in the entire archive, the last one having been in 2011, so it seems strange and confusing to still be using a separate colour for it. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:38, March 18, 2025 (EDT)

This is something I noticed as well while making the proposal — I kind of considered addressing it, but the proposal was already a bit sprawling, so bundling in a change to that seemed like a poor decision. If someone were to make a separate proposal to axe the "tie" color, I'd back it. Ahemtoday (talk) 14:10, March 18, 2025 (EDT)

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Give Taiko no Tatsujin an article

Taiko no Tatsujin has had numerous crossovers with the Mario franchise throughout its history. This extends to not only the songs being playable, but actual Mario characters showing up and being animated in the accompanying videos in the earlier games.

  • The DS version has "Super Mario Bros." as a track, using imagery from the games.
  • The Wii version includes "New Super Mario Bros. Wii Medley." and "Super Mario Bros." Notably, the videos include actual characters and imagery from the game showing up. The former has nearly every enemy from the original Super Mario Bros.
  • Taiko no Tatsujin Wii U Version! has "Fever" from Dr. Mario. There are also Mario and Luigi costumes for Don-chan and Katsu-chan.
  • Nintendo Switch Version! has "Jump Up, Super Star!" from Super Mario Odyssey.
  • The 2020 version brings back "Super Mario Bros." and "Jump Up, Super Star!", also including a "Famicom Medley" track using "Fever" from Dr. Mario. These tracks are present in many of the arcade versions. Playing "Super Mario Bros." will have mushrooms and Super Stars appear when notes are hit.
  • Blue Version has Cappy has an equippable hat.
  • Rhythm Festival has a medley of music from Super Mario Bros., re-used from earlier games.

Mario has paid it back with the serial-numbers-filed-off Donkey Konga and Don-chan being a playable character in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX. Since there's overlap between the franchises, and they've had a decent history together, I think Taiko is deserving of its own article to cover all this in one place.

Proposer: Scrooge200 (talk)
Deadline: March 30, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support (Bring Us One Degree of Separation Closer to Jimmy Neutron)

  1. Scrooge200 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Makes sense to us; with how many cross references there are both ways, it seems only fair.
  3. Hewer (talk) This should probably be cancelled given the crossover article proposal but I'll support just in case. I previously wasn't sure whether it would get a page under that proposal because the only crossover I knew about was Don-chan being in Mario Kart (and his tiny Smash representation in one of Pac-Man's taunts), but all of this other stuff seems very comparable to what got Just Dance (series) a page. Now we just need to figure out whether Tamagotchi gets one...
  4. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose (No More Megalovania, Please)

Comments' Perfect Math Class

@Scrooge200, have you considered waiting until the proposal immediately above is finished? You would not need to raise proposal for Taiko no Tatsujin at all if it were to be pass. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:23, March 16, 2025 (EDT)

Oh, I noticed that, but figured it was more for just Zelda. I'm glad to see we're finally making it out of the Stone Age with our crossover coverage, though. Scrooge200 (talk) PMCS Mustard Cafe Sign.png 15:27, March 16, 2025 (EDT)
Zelda is just the example I worked with. The proposal itself applies to all manner of crossover. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:30, March 16, 2025 (EDT)
@Scrooge200 By "stone age" I assume you mean it's one of the last steps to becoming a wiki centered completely on Super Mario. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:38, March 16, 2025 (EDT)

Merge moves exclusive to forms with their respective forms, leaving main article links if they are part of another article. Also replace the Fly article with a list.

Mario’s many, many forms have granted him oh so many forms. These forms grant him many new moves, like swinging a cape, jumping in the air, or even a slew of Link’s moves! Now, how many of these have articles? (Excluding Tail whip)

If you guessed zero, +/- Tail whip, you’re right. This makes sense: If I go to an article on a form, then I want to see all of that form’s nuances. What good is it to have some parts of the benefits conferred by a power-up on a separate page? Imagine if Builder Mario had an article dedicated to swinging its hammer, a core portion of the abilities Builder Mario grants. Imagine if Mole Yoshi had an entire article dedicated to its ability to dig, despite that being the sole move it can do with a button press and digging being its entire point of existing. Imagine if operating the Super Pickax had an entire article separate from the Super Pickax, even though the player doesn’t even have the choice to hold a Super Pickax without using it. (Yes, the act of using a Super Pickax has a name!)

But we’re already doing this, just under the veneer of putting it under existing articles. These articles, for example:

I think this is a flawed line of thinking. For a much as shell dashing and Drill Spinning are moves that can be used by specific forms, they are also benefits conferred by specific forms and power-ups. We should be focusing efforts to improve coverage for such moves on the page for the power-up, as someone who wants to learn everything Shell Mario can do probably shouldn’t have to also check shell dash. Shell Mario should say that shell dashing enemies doesn’t start a point chain. Shell Mario should say if how many hits it takes to defeat a boss with the shell dash. Shell Mario should mention the unique movement opportunities/restrictions of the shell dash compared two base Mario. There shouldn’t be two different articles going into technical detail on a single topic if we can help it, not least because of the potential of a correction to one article not being applied to the other. And if we can only have one super detailed article, then it ought to be the form.

Imagine if we extended the current situation to other named moves of forms? Would Mega Yoshi be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Tail Swipe, on the basis of it having the technical detail of stalling Yoshi’s fall? Would Penguin Mario be a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Belly Slide? If we gave the field form of Luiginary Ball a page, would it be.a stronger article if there was a second article dedicated to Ball Hammer?

As such, this proposal aims to just move all the technical details of moves that can only be performed by power-up forms to the form’s page. The section remains, because it’s a part of the move’s conceptual history, using a {{main}} article link to move over to the form for the nitty gritty on how everything about that specific implementation works. For reference look at how Dash handles the Dash (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga) (Relevant Edit) and the Spin Dash (Relevant Edit). Instead of restating the entire move but trying to be a little looser about the mechanics than the main article, it has a note saying “this exists and is a version of the thing this article is about”, and then sends the reader to the main article. It's a more efficient use of bits and our readers' time.

This does not affect moves of non-powered up characters that are modified by the power-up. Flying Squirrel Mario’s high Spin Jumps stay on Spin Jump, Frog Mario's and Penguin Mario’s swimming stay on Swim, Tanooki Mario’s Tail Spin stays on Roll, and so on. This is in addition to these modified versions of moves being written about on their form’s pages. (No, shell dash is not a modified dash. It's a new action that dashing happens to trigger, as indicated by the requirement of dashing and alternate method of crouching on a slope) This proposal does not affect projectiles whose existence is broader than their associated power-up, namely Fireball, Ice Ball, Hammer, and Bubble. Builder Boxes are Crates, so they fall into this bucket. (Superball would be included, but it was merged with Superball Mario years ago and is not included.) This also does not affect character/power-up hybrids. Yoshi's Swallow, Egg Throw, et al, Baby DK's DK Dash Attack, Diddy Kong's Diddy Attack and Barrel Jet, and Rambi's Supercharge and Charge are examples of these exclusions. This is because in some cases the character can use the move without being a power-up, usually because they are playable in a non-power-up capacity. While this isn’t true in every case, it makes sense to extend this grace to all character/power-up hybrids. SMB2 Mario is bizarre, but charge jump is ultimately unaffected. It’s a move of the normal player characters in Super Mario Bros. 2 proper, and the article doesn’t have a Super Mario Maker 2 section to cut down anyway. I’d advocate for adding more charge jump content to the SMB2 Mario article, but that’s not part of the proposal.

Perceptive readers probably realize that this policy would gut Fly, an article entirely about a recurring skill of certain forms/capability of items. An article consisting entirely of {{main}} templates would be bad, right? Au contraire, for this is by design. Fly is trapped in a purgatory where it can’t actually say anything meaningful because all of the data for each of the forms, abilities, and items it’s trying to cover should be on the articles for those things. So it’s a listicle of every game you can fly in with cliff notes about how they work. I guess its a directory for all of the flying skills, but having it be a traditional article makes using Fly as a directory inefficient. At this point, we should embrace the list structure and use it for something lists are good for, comparisons between games. I have compiled a list version of Fly on a userpage, based on the existing List of power-ups. It’s messy and incomplete but I think it’s better than the Fly article. Should this proposal pass, this list will replace the article.

Tail whip was created after I planned this proposal but before I proposed it. If this proposal passes, it gets merged into Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games. This policy devastates Tail Whip in the same way Fly is. Tail Whip can keep its categories as a redirect. While the move may be used by multiple forms, the most basic forms with the attack are more than capable of storing Tail whip's mechanics for the improved versions of White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario to refer to later. This matches how Penguin Mario defers to Ice Mario and Ice Ball. Tails are also on Tail Whip, but Tail handles using Tail and has no need to be listed on another article. Even if we wanted a complete list of games with with tail attacks, Raccoon Mario already mentions Tail. (The situation is also similar to Cape, which used to compile Cape Mario and Superstar Mario into a listicle before this proposal reduced it to the Smash Bros. attack.

Oh yeah and I guess Strike of Intuition is caught in the crosshairs of this since it is a move exclusive to Detective Peach. Given everything else, it gets merged too.

Proposer: Salmancer (talk)
Deadline: March 31, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Merge moves and Listify Fly: Merge moves to forms, and convert Fly into a list

  1. Salmancer (talk) Per proposal.

Merge moves, Fly is free: Merge moves to forms, but keep Fly as is

Clip Fly's wings: Do not merge moves to forms, change Fly from an article to a list

Oppose: Status quo

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Many of the moves in question are used by multiple forms, so attempting to merge them to all separately would violate Mariowiki:Once and only once EDIT: which makes determining appearances of the move across different games more difficult to find. Furthermore, we do not merge character-specific moves to their respective pages (other than non-Mario characters in the Super Smash Bros. series) - for instance, look at Scuttle and Flutter Jump - so why should we do so with forms?
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) I don't think we cover moves and other actions particularly well, and I would rather see what that looks like before proposing mergers. Moves are not strictly the same as the form itself (i.e. Flying Squirrel Mario, Power Squirrel Mario, and captured Glydon can all "glide"), and it would be nice to see detail on what the moves are in isolation. Sometimes different power-uped forms perform the same move. A quick look through the fly article indicates there are things lumped together there that really aren't the same thing.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) per all. the current state of the wiki's move coverage just isn't good enough right now to determine whether this proposal would have any benefits. would love to see this proposal again in the future when we have more ground to stand on, but it's not the time right now.

Comments (Merge moves of forms to forms even if they are non-unique and replace Fly with a list)

I am sorry this proposal planned for a while is going to merge an article that was just made. It kind of jumped further up my list of priorities given I don't want people to put hard work into adding to Tail whip if I'm about to try to merge it. Salmancer (talk) 18:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Question; would this merge Fireball Punch, and would this failing result in re-instating Dangan Mario? These manga "forms" are kind of an edge case. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:23, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Oh dear manga questions. From what I understand of things, I think nothing should happen either way. Dangan Mario was an article as a form, so unless it's getting reevaluated to be a named move it stays where it lies. Fireball Punch is tricky. The thing is that this proposal exists because of pressures from the medium of video games. Fireball Punch is from a linear narrative story, there's not really much of a benefit readers gain from merging Fireball Punch because odds are someone looking at Super Mario Wiki to read about Fireball Mario doesn't need to know what a Fireball Punch is soon after. They might not even be reading the fifth chapter of Volume 1, the only place with a Fireball Punch. You can hardly consider the Fireball Punch to be a core part of Fireball Mario like all of the moves involved in the proposal. Fireball Punch is free from this proposal, though someone else might think the lack of length means it should be merged into Fireball Mario given this proposal is merging many longer articles or sections of articles into their home forms. Salmancer (talk) 18:56, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick for your own sake, you should know "once and only once" as a strict policy has been retired. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:18, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Thanks, wish I'd known that before. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:30, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Characters aren't forms, so their moves are unaffected by this proposal, which means Scuttle isn't involved, Character/power-ups are unaffected, so Flutter Jump also isn't affected and you can't loophole abuse your way to merging Scuttle through the Luigi Cap. Forms that are improved versions of other forms already defer to the base form for unchanged abilities they inherit. Ice Mario has two paragraphs dedicated to using Ice Balls See example text of everything Penguin Mario has to say about Ice Balls..

After Mario has become this form, he can throw Ice Balls at enemies and freeze them. Mario can then use the frozen enemies as platforms or pick them up and throw them against the wall or other enemies.

- Penguin Mario

The system works! It's repeated for White Raccoon Mario in relation to Raccoon Mario, as per the line, "It gives the player Raccoon Mario's abilities, causes the P-Meter to charge more quickly, allows the player to run and stand on water (like Mini Mario), and grants invincibility for the stage". It's also done for Power Squirrel Mario to Flying Squirrel Mario, with "As Power Squirrel Mario, Mario has all of the abilities of Flying Squirrel Mario, though he never loses the ability to glide and can perform Flying Squirrel Jumps continuously without landing". Salmancer (talk) 19:35, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

"List of methods of flight" as a name for the userpage was designed to be aware that not everything on Fly is the same kind of move. (and also it managed to morph into a list of all ways to get from point A to point B if point B is higher than point A... and then an extra addendum for hovering over hazards.) Would it be better if it were placed in mainspace as "List of methods of flight"? Salmancer (talk) 19:47, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Regarding your saying that tail whip's info would be moved to Raccoon Mario for 2D games and Tanooki Mario for 3D games, would that not mean that Tanooki Mario's page would not discuss the tail whip until Super Mario 3D Land, despite it being usable by that form in Super Mario Bros. 3? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:53, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Tanooki Mario is already doing exactly that. I don't see anything that makes the article hard to follow, short of it going "there is mandatory reading before reading this article." Which White Raccoon Mario and White Tanooki Mario have been doing as well. It's fine.

In this form, he can turn into an invulnerable statue by holding +Control Pad down and pressing B Button at the same time, in addition to using Raccoon Mario's moves, making it an improved version of Raccoon Mario.

- Tanooki Mario, Super Mario Bros. 3 section.

However, the form's mechanics are different from Super Mario Bros. 3, as while Mario can still tail whip (by pressing X Button or Y Button) and glide (now done by holding A Button or B Button, as with Caped Mario, rather than tapping the buttons), he cannot fly during gameplay.

- Tanooki Mario, Super Mario 3D Land section.
Uh, filler text for sig. I guess I'm advocating for building the 3D Land text up more, since that game shouldn't be deferring to Raccoon Mario as it sort of does now. Salmancer (talk) 20:05, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
But how is it superior to do so compared to just having an article for the move? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:17, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
Hypothetical: "Wow! Tanooki Mario is so cool! What does he do?/I just beat 3D Land, is there any nuance to it I missed?/Are there any bugs in 3D Land I can exploit with it? I know, I'll go to the Tanooki Mario page on Super Mario Wiki!"
In the current wiki, the three hypothetical people with varying interest in Super Mario read both an article on Tanooki Mario and an article on Tail whip to find everything they want to know. This proposal wants to make all of them only read one article, Tanooki Mario. I think this is better because it saves them the additional click and additional loading time and appeals to lower attention spans. I value these hypothetical readers over the hypothetical reader who is a Mario historian who wants to see the evolution of Tail whip across every game of the franchise. Keep in mind, redirects exist so the earlier three hypotheticals can mostly get to the right page if they zig where I think they'd zag and search for a move name. Okay except for Tail whip in specific because of the 2D/3D split, oof moment. I guess disambiguation pages still let my example work since while there would still be two pages to look at the first of them would be short and quick to load because its a disambig and therefore still superior to having Tail whip as full article alongside Raccoon Mario and Tanooki Mario. Salmancer (talk) 20:59, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
"Gee, I wonder if that cool thing Tanooki Mario does appears in any other games for any other forms?" This is the more likely question that would be asked. Which is why the move page makes more sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:01, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
I think my system still lets that person get to the answers reasonably intuitively. Tanooki Mario says it's super duper Raccoon Mario, so navigating to that page seems reasonable if one wants more tail whipping action. From Raccoon Mario they'll hit Tail. The only odd one out is Mario Kart Super Leaf, which is exclusively covered on Super Leaf, except thanks to Tanooki Mario being playable in Mario Kart Tour with the Super Leaf as his special skill that hypothetical person should still hit Super Leaf. We could just add a Mario Kart series "sentence long section with a {{main}} link" to Raccoon Mario to patch that hole up, and maybe note that giving Tanooki Mario the Super Leaf as a special skill closely reflects the platforming video games, meaning we have all the links the Tail whip article would have without needing to make a Tail whip article.Salmancer (talk) 21:22, March 17, 2025 (EDT)
IMO this just sounds like a lot of confounding mental gymnastics to me and just having a page for the move removes most of the leaps of logic and assumptions on what people will and will not know. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:02, March 17, 2025 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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