MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
===Determine a minimum number of glitches in a game to warrant a separate list article===
''None at the moment.''
 
==New features==
===Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page===
This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more ''Super Mario'' games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for [[Mario]], [[Bowser]], and many other recurring subjects.
 
Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.


I've noticed some strange discrepancies regarding how glitches are handled when a game has only 3 or 4 of them documented here. ''[[Wario Land 4]]'' has a separate article for its 3 glitches ([[List of Wario Land 4 glitches]]), but every other game with 3 glitches simply has those glitches merged with the game's page. Specifically, [[Mario vs. Donkey Kong#Glitches|''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'']], [[Super Mario Strikers#Glitches|''Super Mario Strikers'']], [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)#Glitches|''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch)]], and, most glaringly, [[Wario Land 3#Glitches|''Wario Land 3'']] have sections for glitches rather than separate lists.
For example, let's say for [[Luigi]] in his appearance in ''[[Mario Sports Superstars]]'', there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:


More complicated is figuring out how to deal with games with 4 glitches. Of the 6 games with 4 documented glitches:
:''For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see [[List of Luigi profiles and statistics#Mario Sports Superstars|here]].''
*4 of them have glitches merged into the main article: [[Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2#Glitches|''Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2'']], [[Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze#Glitches|''Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze'']], [[Donkey Kong Land#Glitches|''Donkey Kong Land'']], [[Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle#Glitches|''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle'']]
*2 of them have separate "List of glitches" articles: [[List of Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem! glitches|''Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem!'']], [[List of Super Mario Advance glitches|''Super Mario Advance'']]


I put forward this proposal to determine a minimum number of glitches for the creation of "List of glitches" articles. That way, there is consistency between games with the same number of documented glitches. Additionally, if new glitches are documented later that brings the total number over this minimum, a new page can easily be created without the need for a proposal, as the editor can cite this proposal.  
The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.


;Option 1: The minimum number of glitches should be 3. "List of glitches" pages would be created for ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch), and ''Wario Land 3'' to match that of ''Wario Land 4''.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
;Option 2: The minimum number of glitches should be 4. [[List of Wario Land 4 glitches]] would be deleted and its glitches merged into the main game's article. "List of glitches" pages would be created for ''Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2'', ''Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze'', ''Donkey Kong Land'', and ''Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle''.
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT
;Option 3: The minimum number of glitches should be 5. [[List of Wario Land 4 glitches]], [[List of Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem! glitches]], and [[List of Super Mario Advance glitches]] would be deleted, with the glitches merged into each game's main article.
;Do nothing: There should be no concrete minimum, and whether glitches should be split or not should be discussed on a game-by-game basis.


I could continue with 6, 7, etc., but I feel once this point is reached there is enough to warrant separate "List of glitches" articles, especially since game articles are typically long and images are usually needed to showcase glitches, taking up more space.
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Technetium}}<br>
====Oppose====
'''Deadline''': August 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Option 1====
====Comments====
{{@|Hewer}} I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)


====Option 2====
===Add an abbreviation template to type out full game titles===
#{{User|Technetium}} Second choice.
{{early notice|December 25}}
This proposal is about creating a template that it makes it easier to type out full game titles. Although ''The Legend of Zelda'' games generally have longer titles (and Zelda Wiki even has templates for some of their shorter titled games, like ''{{iw|zeldawiki|Hyrule Warriors}}'', {{iw|zeldawiki|Template:HW|here}}), there have still been cases in which some game titles are uncomfortably long, such as ''[[Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!]]'' or ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]'', and while it may seem like not a big deal to some, it would be a small quality-of-life improvement if we could have a template where we input the abbreviation, and the output becomes the game title.


====Option 3====
For example, <nowiki>{{a|M&LSS}}</nowiki> would result in ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'' (complete with italics formatting). Meanwhile, <nowiki>{{a|M&LSS|l}}</nowiki> to link to the game, outputting ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga]]'', although depending on who creates the template, it could be vice versa, like it links by default and <nowiki>{{a|M&LSS|n}}</nowiki> would prevent a link.
#{{User|Technetium}} First choice. I am a bit torn between Options 2 and 3, but I prefer this one as I feel 4 glitches can easily fit on a game's page, as seen with the examples above.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't particularly mind what the minimum number of glitches is, but I agree that there should be a minimum in order to have some more consistency, and a smaller minimum may cause unnecessary splits of small glitch lists, so I'll go for this option.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all. (I really love glitches, so I'm glad this is being settled.)
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all


====Do nothing====
Since ''Super Mario'' has several releases, it may get difficult maintaining with all the abbreviations, and there have been cases where two games have shared the same abbreviation. (e.g. [[SMS]] for both ''Mario Sunshine'' and ''Mario Strikers''). In that case, either <nowiki>{{a|SMS|2002}}</nowiki> (with the year of release) or a custom abbreviation (e.g. <nowiki>{{a|SMShine}}</nowiki>) would be needed (personally I'd prefer the latter).
 
Consider we already have similar templates for Princess Peach and Princess Daisy (i.e. {{tem|Peach}} and {{tem|Daisy}}), and both of their full titles (with "Princess" included) is a lot shorter than the two game titles in the first paragraph.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We don't see the harm in this, even if it would admittedly be fairly niche. The only real complaint we have is the lack of an additional parameter for changing the displayed text, so if we need to say something like "in the [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|remake]]", we have to write that out the old-fashioned way.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} might make some link-heavy pages lighter!
#{{User|Salmancer}} Words cannot express the relief that my fingers would feel if they never have to type out "Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey" again.
#{{User|Tails777}} Mario already took my example, but it still stands; the amount of times I've had to type out that title (or even the abbreviation for it) was incredibly annoying. Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Yes, these titles can be a pain to write out in full. Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
 
====Oppose====


====Comments====
====Comments====
From what I can tell, articles on this wiki are usually split based on size, not the number of headings. It's why [[List of Fortune Street quotes]] is split into [[List of Fortune Street quotes by Dragon Quest characters (A–J)|Dragon Quest characters (A-J]] / [[List of Fortune Street quotes by Dragon Quest characters (K–Z)|K-Z)]] and [[List of Fortune Street quotes by Super Mario characters (A–M)|Super Mario characters (A-M]] / [[List of Fortune Street quotes by Super Mario characters (N–Z)|N-Z)]] and why the number of headings in these articles is inconsistent. I think it'd be weird to split lists of glitches based strictly on the number of sections rather than the amount of text since that could lead to very short articles that only list a few very minor glitches that can be described in just a few sentences. {{User:Dive Rocket Launcher/sig}} 22:50, August 15, 2024 (EDT)
:{{@|Camwoodstock}} Such a parameter can always be added to the template. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:18, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:Yeah, I'm aware of that. It just feels different here because glitch descriptions tend to be around the same length. If you look at the examples I discussed in the proposal, you'll find there really isn't a noticeable size difference between the pages that have their glitches merged vs separate. Truth be told, I was originally going to just make a talk page proposal to merge [[List of Wario Land 4 glitches]], but the discrepancies with the pages with 4 glitches led to me coming up with this. I'd be happy to hear anyone else's ideas on how to make things more consistent, because the way things are currently is frankly bugging me. --[[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 23:02, August 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
Salmancer: ''[[Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games]]'' might be the other worst game title I've had to type out. {{User:Mario/sig}} 00:59, December 20, 2024 (EST)
:Damn it, that was gonna be my example! {{User:Tails777/sig}}15:34, December 20, 2024 (EST)


==New features==
===Split image categories into separate ones for assets, screenshots, and artwork===
===Add the Thanks extension===
This proposal will address the bloat some image categories have and make them easier to navigate.
The [[mw:Extension:Thanks|Thanks]] extension is a way to personally thank a contributor without sending them a message directly. It's a kind gesture to show that you appreciate certain edits from someone, such as if they add more content to an article you made or fix grammatical errors. This saves the effort of having to manually message your appreciation if you wanted to give a quick Thanks to the user, though this proposal in no way seeks to replace that; it provides another option for thanking a user.
 
Why is this useful? It makes adding to galleries or finding images to replace much easier. If you want to retake screenshots from a game, you can go to the screenshots category to find them. If you have sprite rips to replace, there's a category for that. The same goes for finding images from a game that aren't on the gallery already and being able to sort them more efficiently. This is also how we divide up character galleries already, such as [[Gallery:Mario (2010-2019)]].


However, a requirement to installing Thanks is the [[mw:Extension:Echo|Echo extension]], which is used by Wikipedia, MediaWiki, and many other major wikis. The Echo extension had embedded features of its own, and it could get annoying for some if it gives a message for every 100, 200, 500, or so milestone edits that someone makes (even though it is possible that some may want to keep track of their milestones). Point is, if the Thanks extension is allowed, be wary of changes that the Echo extension would bring. The echo notification also replaces the new message box with a new messages notification at the top right of the screen. Perhaps it is possible to disable some of the default features of Echo, but the point is that this proposal is mainly about allowing Thanks.
Now, I can see a few edge cases, like when games have screenshots of themselves for credits images (i.e. ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)]]''). I would still classify these as assets, since they are ripped from the game. Artwork that is used in smaller forms in-game, such as in ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'', would be classified as artwork if externally released or an asset if it was ripped from the game files. Edge cases shouldn't be too common and they're easy to work out: it's not too different from how we license images or put them in character or subject galleries.


On a sidenote, if this passes, the courtesy policy will be updated to prohibit spamming the use of it for consecutive edits made by a user or someone who personally does not wish to have their edits thanked.
I think the name "assets" would be more useful in shorthand than "sprites and models," in addition to covering textures, so I propose for the category to be called that, but I can change it if there's opposition. The global images category can still exist in the case there's scans, merchandise, video screenshots, or such images that cannot be further categorized.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Scrooge200}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': January 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} As proposer.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I support this in principle, as long as there's room for discretion on what gets split and what gets left alone. A game with only ten or so pieces of artwork doesn't need a separate category for them, they can just stay in the main images category for that game. Otherwise, this seems useful, I just don't want users to go overboard by purely following the letter of this proposal.
#{{User|Mario shroom}} As a Wikipedia editor, I support.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Greenlit by Steve, and I massively support this.
#{{User|Sparks}} Yes! The element of kindness (AKA Fluttershy) in Mario Wiki form. I support! Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Wonderful idea.
#{{User|YoYo}} sure, there's no harm in this
#{{User|Mario}} Validation is always nice. [[File:Kindness Stamp MP3.png|50px]]
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} I absolutely love to thank people for kindnesses, especially because so many people have helped me in the past! And this would make it so much easier. I totally support this, and who cares about the side effects-- all I want is to be able to spread kindness, no matter what the cost.
#{{User|Dine2017}} This would be a great way to get feedback for your edits. It would also bring the editing experience closer to Wikimedia wikis.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} No thank you.


====Comments====
====Comments====
I've always wanted this for years now, but I feel this sort of thing requires at least confirming with Steve first. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:27, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
This is already being done (e.g. [[:Category:Mario Kart Tour item icons]]). [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 11:02, December 23, 2024 (EST)
:{{@|Mario}} Maybe someone could ask him. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:39, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
:{{@|Mario}} I asked on [[User_talk:Porplemontage#Echo_and_Thanks_extension|his talk page]], and the proposal is allowed. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 00:09, August 17, 2024 (EDT)


==Removals==
==Removals==
===Allow each Poké Ball Pokémon only one representative artwork or screenshot and remove lists of Poké Ball and stage-exclusive Pokémon on ''Smash Bros.'' game pages===
''None at the moment.''
This proposal's a short one because there's not much to say about it. The [[List of Super Smash Bros. series items#Poké Ball Pokémon|Poké Ball Pokémon]] section of the List of ''SSB'' series items page is cluttered enough. They have little to no relation to ''Super Mario'' other than their interactivity with ''Super Mario'' fighters, but that goes for all fighters in general (that's my understanding as to why the list pages exist). A while ago, there was a majority consensus of [[Talk:Pokémon|over 20 users]] who agreed to delete the {{fake link|Pokémon}} page, giving images of Poké Ball Pokémon even less of a purpose to be on the wiki. Poké Ball Pokémon are not nearly as intrinsic to the ''Smash Bros.'' games as moves, stages, items, and, of course, fighters; they are a mechanic part of the Poké Ball item.
 
==Changes==
===Broaden the scope of the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations===
With the [[Template talk:Unreferenced#Delete or be more specific|previous proposal]] having passed with being more specific as the most voted, I've come up with a proposal about the possibility to make the {{tem|rewrite}}, {{tem|rewrite-expand}}, and {{tem|rewrite-remove}} templates more specific. As you can see, these templates are missing some smaller text. As such, I am just wondering if there is a possibility to have the smaller text added to the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki>, <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki>, and <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> templates.


Now I already think that for a wiki on ''Super Mario'', a table listing Poké Ball Pokémon and giving an image of each one is enough of a stretch as is, but further discussion on that is for a possible future proposal. For this proposal, if it passes, only '''one''' artwork (or screenshot, if there is no artwork) per each Poké Ball Pokémon will be used, of their latest or only appearance in ''Smash Bros.'' only, and '''all other screenshots and artwork''' of Poké Ball Pokémon '''will be deleted'''. Several of them have been in [[Special:UnusedFiles]] for months. In the case that a Pokémon has both a screenshot and artwork, prioritize the artwork but delete the screenshot, consistent with how infoboxes are used. The playable fighters representing ''Pokémon'' and Rayquaza (a boss in ''Brawl'') will not be affected by this proposal, nor will any of the trophy images of Poké Ball Pokémon, which would be better subject to a different proposal.
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


'''Edit:''' Passing this proposal will also remove any standalone Poké Ball Pokémon lists on the ''Smash Bros.'' game pages and list the Pokémon (though not their functions) within the Poké Ball description under the Items heading. To be consistent, this will also remove the Saffron City cameos on the ''Super Smash Bros.'' article, since they're more or less the same by virtue of Poke Ball Pokemon, except they spawn from the stage environment.
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
</div>
----
However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>
</pre>


'''Second edit:''' A separate option ("Remove only Poké Ball Pokémon lists") has been added for those who want only the Poké Ball Pokémon list removed (at least from this proposal). This is for others who think that stage hazards should stay put on the game pages but not Poke Ball Pokemon, or for those who want the status of ''Pokémon'' and other non-''Super Mario'' stage hazards to be for consideration in a future proposal altogether. Even in this case, an individual image for stage hazard Pokémon would be kept, even if they later became Poké Ball Pokémon, but on the game pages only, NOT on the [[List of Super Smash Bros. series items]] page for the reason that they are/were not Poké Ball Pokémon under this context.
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
</div>
----
And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
'''Deadline''': August 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
----
Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s):{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
</pre>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>
----
That will be a perfect idea to make the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations as more specific as the {{tem|media missing}} and {{tem|unreferenced}} templates. That way, we'll be able to add smaller text to the remaining [[:Category:Notice templates|notice templates]] in the future.


====Remove both Poké Ball and stage Pokémon lists====
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} As proposer.
'''Deadline''': <s>December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to December 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Mushzoom}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} A little Pokemon coverage could still be contained in the Smash Bros item list because you can interact with them while playing as a Mario character, but all the tiny Saffron City cameos and specific mechanics of these assist Pokemon on the parent Super Smash Bros. game pages are excessive, and so are the dozens of images related to these things. Nuke 'em. Last I checked, this site is called "mariowiki.com".
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} We've got Smash Wiki and Bulbapedia to cover the Pokémon in Super Smash Bros. Also, RPG has made better points than Doc in the comments.


====Remove only Poké Ball Pokémon lists====
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal


====Remove nothing====
====Oppose====
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - No reason for this. Note how I made [[Super Smash Bros.#Poké Ball Pokémon|the Pokemon table]] for the ''[[Super Smash Bros.]]'' (N64) page; there should be representation of each aspect for each "game" page, even aspects that link to another site - and the only way to so that in the way you're wanting would be to have images from other games in the series, which is an absolute no. EDIT: With the addition to the proposal's goals, this is now aiming to prioritize [[List of Assist Trophy characters#Gray Fox|Gray Fox]] and [[Whispy Woods]] over Pokemon that have the same role (assist summon and stage hazard, respectively, such as Chansey and Venusaur on both counts) just because the latter are from Pokemon. This is completely counterintuitive and seems to have no basis other than a personal disdain for Pokemon images. ''Why do the former two (especially the foremost, who's not even a Nintendo character and has not appeared in any media with Mario other than Smash) get prioritized?'' Even if you "plan to take care of that in a later proposal," that still leaves things inconsistent until the hypothetical scenario of that happening and passing.
#{{User|Altendo}} As far as I can tell, the proposal that was linked added parameters that allowed what was supposed to be referenced to be referenced. This one simply adds a subtitle to the bottom of each template. "Be more specific" does not mean saying general information and helpful links, but rather exactly what needs to be done; in terms of that, the existing templates not only all already have parameters, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|filling them out is enforced]]. As [[User:Nightwicked Bowser|Nightwicked Bowser]] said, "Be more specific - Similar to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|this proposal]], what exactly needs references must be specified in the template when putting it in the article. A parameter for this will still need to be added." This only adds a subtitle and does not make this "more specific". As for the changes, this is actually harmful in some way, as the <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> tag will be added to the subtitle, rather than the main body, which could make it more confusing in my opinion. Feel free to update this and add in what "more specific" actually means, or just change this to "add subtitles" and change the location of <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> to the main body, but until then, my vote is staying here.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Doc, this doesn't feel like a logical limitation of scope to stay Mario-focused so much as a random and arbitrary restriction that hinders completeness. It also seems strange to me to single out Pokémon out of everything in Smash as the one thing not Mario-relevant enough to warrant this treatment - it doesn't make sense to do this for the Poké Ball summons but not the non-Mario Assist Trophies, or for the Pokémon stage hazards but not the other non-Mario stage hazards.
#{{User|Mario}} Best to keep things simple with these improvement templates.
#{{User|Metalex123}} Per Doc
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Mario.


====Comments====
====Comments====
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} The Pokemon on the SSB64 page can just be mentioned under the Poké Ball description of the Items section. The description already says "a random Pokémon." That's vague. Which ones? But if mentioning the Pokémon in that description, then it will show which of them there are without making a separate subsection of something that doesn't directly invoke ''Super Mario'', unlike items, moves, fighters, and stages, which all have at least one thing related to ''Super Mario'' in them. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:58, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:...in saying that, you openly admit you ''want'' it to be more vague. The non-Pokeball Pokemon are instead listed in the stage element sections, anyway. When it comes to this sort of section, we should not pick-and-choose what is and is not "relevant" to the ''Mario'' games, as there are too many edge cases; like the Bumpers, for instance, which despite being ''Smash''-based appear as a permanent obstacle in the primary ''Mario'' stage. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:59, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::It's not vague. It would be summarizing Pokemon under the "Poke Ball" heading if saying "these are the Pokemon, all of them behave differently" and then either link to the list page on this wiki for more info ([[MarioWiki:Once and only once]]) or to SmashWiki. As for the Pokemon that are stage features, they could be mentioned under the respective stage descriptions. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:03, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::How would bloating a single item's section in the items table be preferable to just having a separate table? This covers everything equally without requiring extra pages or understating the importance of the individual subjects - having them as that page is is a great compromise. Attempting to remove it is suddenly just deciding some random aspect shouldn't even be alluded to properly, which is not how coverage works. The "once and only once" argument is irrelevant because that's like saying that the Fire Flower item section on that table shouldn't have a description because there's already a Fire Flower page, and the article you refer to mixes them with no regard for specific game - honestly, those list pages should be phased out in favor of having the information on the individual game pages with interwiki links, like the SSB page currently is. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:06, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::As for Bumpers, those are items, which I said is more integral to the Smash Bros. series than Poke Ball Pokemon. It's not bloating if it's listing the names of the Pokemon in the Poke Ball section only and giving a one sentence or mention that each of them function differently. Why was the Pokemon page deleted through unanimous consent? Because it lacked enough relevance to ''Super Mario''. These are components of an item that appear in a non-''Super Mario'' crossover page. This is limiting Poke Ball Pokemon info to just the list page which, as stated in the proposal, could be considered a stretch itself (but subject to different proposal or community discussion). What's an "edge case" that involves Poke Ball Pokemon and the ''Super Mario'' franchise? The argument doesn't apply to [[Fire Flower]] for the obvious reason that those are in the ''Super Mario'' franchise itself. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:13, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::As I said, limiting to the list page is the opposite of what should be done, they should be limited to the game articles as SSB's currently is. That is a much better idea, and that is my final word on that discussion. And the Fire Flower thing ''does'' matter in regards to you bringing up "once and only once." The "edge case" thing more has to do with arbitrarily deciding something doesn't need image coverage on a game article, obviously. And yes, putting a ''13-item'' list ''within'' a single cell of a table when no other cell of its column has one is ''absolutely'' bloating it - to say nothing of the later games that have even ''more''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:15, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::To me, the definition of "arbitrary" is someone deciding something based on feeling rather than elaborate consideration. Some of the guest coverage games like ''Nintendo Land'' don't list everything and just give an overview of the other minigames because those are prominent features of the game. If ''Super Smash Bros.'' were not named as such to anglophones (secondary, whilst the Japanese name is primary, being a game developed by HAL and Nintendo), the treatment of ''Smash Bros.'' coverage would almost certainly be on similar level to ''Nintendo Land'' or the recently released ''Nintendo World Championships'' game for Switch. One could make the argument that adding Pokemon descriptions within the Poke Ball is bloat, then that's something to consider, but there's no harm in listing the different Pokemon in it so then it's there in one place. It's not that hard to go to SmashWiki to read more about the Pokemon functions, just like for general Smash Bros. concepts and mechanics like special moves. Many things in Smash Bros. don't have pages here for the reason that Smash Bros. is not officially considered a component of the ''Super Mario'' franchise, and my proposal on deleting {{fake link|Trophy Tussle}} passed some months ago because it's not relevant enough, just like the Pokemon page isn't, and similar could be said for Poke Ball Pokemon. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:36, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::The main difference here is ''Nintendo Land'' is a collection of disconnected minigames, while ''Smash'' mixes everything together cohesively; it's ''much'' harder to pick it apart for only certain aspects, ''especially'' when we already cover four of the franchises included (''Super Mario'', ''Donkey Kong'', ''Yoshi'', and ''Wario'') plus some of what they list as "miscellaneous" games (''Famicom Grand Prix'', ''Wrecking Crew''). Either way, the point I am making is the ''game page'' should have full coverage as to its contents regardless of what we have on-wiki pages for, because that's leaving holes - which as I already stated, are far more egregious than what ''Nintendo Land'' has due to the differences in cohesion. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:42, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Why does WiKirby focus on only the ''Kirby'' aspects? Why does Zelda Wiki focus on only the ''Zelda'' aspects? Why does Bulbapedia focus only on the ''Pokemon'' aspects? One could ask the same about this wiki and aspects of ''Super Mario'', for which there's already added lenience from the list pages and additional sections. ''Smash'' could not be a pun on ''Super Mario Bros.'' and still mix everything together, and the argument would still hold up that it's just as relevant to ''Super Mario'' as it is to the other franchises represented, but may incline further consideration of what stays and what goes. Picking apart the Poke Ball Pokemon section will not do a disservice to the wiki's already comprehensive and extended lenience towards coverage on these games at all. Limiting the items and stages would arguably provide less context, but this is an entire grouping of something that does not invoke ''Super Mario'' in any form. That's why I made a proposal about this. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:51, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::What other wikis do does not affect us. Either way, the current SSB page is easily something they could also do if they so felt to. But no other wiki has to juggle four franchises included in this crossover - at that point, just having it all is more efficient. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:57, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::Four franchises? They're representations of games that other ''Super Mario'' characters are protagonists of. They're ''Super Mario'' characters. A definition of four franchises would be ''Super Mario'', ''Kirby'', ''Star Fox'', and ''The Legend of Zelda'', to give an example. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:59, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::[[Super Mario (franchise)|We treat]] [[Donkey Kong (franchise)|them as]] [[Yoshi (franchise)|separate]] [[Wario (franchise)|franchises]], and so does ''Smash''; they have different icons in each game, with the Mushroom, the DK, the Egg, and the W, and different sections for trophies/stickers/music tracks/etc. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:02, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::If they truly were separate franchises, why does it all need to be covered in one place, on this wiki? Shouldn't they have their own wikis then, like other Nintendo franchises? See, it doesn't work. They are part of the ''Super Mario'' branding. In any case, this is distracting from the fact that the proposal is about the relevance of Pokemon and the Poke Ball items. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 21:07, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::It's demonstrating that you're rather out-of-touch with how this works both on an official and wiki basis, and I mean that as gently as possible. We actually used to have a DKwiki as an affiliate, they ended up merging here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:13, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The first sentence is an {{iw|wikipedia|ad hominem}} and not about differing opinions on coverage on Poke Ball Pokemon. To reiterate my point, it probably merged because it didn't work separately when the wiki here covers the games in full, but that's besides the point. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 21:18, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::The point is ''Smash'' is very cohesive with how it mixes elements, so including full coverage on the game page when ''Mario'' and related already have a disproportionately large influence on it compared to ''most'' (not all, mind you) other things included in it in a wide variety of roles makes more sense than picking-and-choosing. The prior sentence was more a warning that your arguments aren't quite as infallible as you think they are. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:27, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Yes, but I've yet to see one reason how keeping the information benefits the ''Super Mario'' franchise directly over covering an entire page about an existing crossover game. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 21:32, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Efficiency. This is a multi-layered bit of coverage here, and starting to remove stuff from that page is a slippery slope that could lead to outright crippling the page (and become inconsistent with characters and items that have crossed over otherwise, if and when it gets to that point). I'd rather avoid that issue entirely - and image galleries should have full coverage anyway just on principle of their existence. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:38, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::It won't necessarily get to that point if the community does not want it to. The definition of "efficiency" here is referring to the wiki page rather than connections to ''Super Mario''. The image galleries already have excessive amounts of non-''Super Mario'' images, something that could become a focus of a different proposal. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 21:42, August 21, 2024 (EDT)


To illustrate what I mean by "bloat," here's the SSB item table with the proposed changes enacted (keeping the surrounding items for comparison):
Here's how I would fix some things:
{|class="wikitable sortable"style="width:100%"
 
!width=12%|Image
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
!width=12%|Name
----
!width=12%|Series
<pre>
!width=64%|Description
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
|-
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
|[[File:SSBbumper.jpg|75px]]
</div>
|[[smashwiki:Bumper|Bumper]]
</pre>
|''Super Smash Bros.'' series
 
|When thrown, this item remains in the same spot. If any character, including the user, touches it, they take damage, and are pushed in a single direction.
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
|-
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
|[[File:SSBfan.jpg|75px]]
</div>
|[[smashwiki:Fan|Fan]]
----
|''Super Smash Bros.'' series
However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
|Because it is light, this item is good for quick attacks. But it doesn't do much damage and can't be thrown very far.
----
|-
<pre>
|[[File:Pokeball.gif|75px]]
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
|[[smashwiki:Poké Ball|Poké Ball]]
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
|''Pokémon'' series
</div>
|When thrown, the Poké Ball opens up, and a Pokémon pops out. The Pokémon that appears is random; it performs its special skill and leaves. The Pokémon that can appear are:
</pre>
*Beedrill
 
*Blastoise
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
*Chansey
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
*Charizard
</div>
*Clefairy
----
*Goldeen
And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
*Hitmonlee
----
*Koffing
<pre>
*Meowth
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
*Mew
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
*Onix
</div>
*Snorlax
</pre>
*Starmie
 
|-
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
|[[File:SSBstarrod.jpg|75x75px]]
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
|[[smashwiki:Star Rod|Star Rod]]
</div>
|''Kirby'' series
----
|When the Star Rod is used, stars come flying out of it, hitting other characters. If used with smash, a large star flies out. The Star Rod has only a limited amount of large stars it can shoot.
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
|
----
|}
<pre>
See how the vertical space for that one specific row is severely extended compared to the ones around it by making that a list within the table? Later games would have even more, and THEN starting with ''Brawl'', there's the Assist Trophies as well, and the only way to be consistent with those identically-acting items would be to have ones for that too. And then there's the Master Balls, which would need to have a redundant list for the subset that they're able to spawn.  [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:20, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
:{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I never said I wanted it as a bullet list (perhaps unless {{tem|columns}} is used). Separating by comma would be more efficient. Assist Trophies are items with franchise variety (also subject to separate discussion), unlike Poke Ball Pokemon, only concerning one franchise, are COMPONENTS of an item. It's not redundant if a Master Ball can list that it functions like a Poke Ball but gives priority to legendary Pokemon.
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
:{{@|Koopa con Carne}} Thank you for input. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:24, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
</div>
::Then it's not a well-formatted (or general wiki-formatted) list because it's harder to tell where the separation between items is; that is the precise reason we have bulleted lists rather than comma'd lists in the first place. Also, only keeping the Assist Trophy tables just because some of them are ''Mario''-based isn't the solution either, because that's saying that Gray Fox or Jeff Andonuts in ''Brawl'' deserve more coverage than Charizard in ''Melee''. And that seems rather arbitrary to me - again to say nothing of non-''Mario'' Assist Trophies that have otherwise crossed over with Mario, like Shadow or Mr. Resetti or Dr. Wily. Also on the subject of Master Ball, we would still need to make clear ''which'' counted as "legendary" or otherwise we're leaving people to look through each Bulbapedia link themselves one-at-a-time. Which shouldn't be needed. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:28, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
</pre>
:::First, I meant like this (or comma-separated):
 
{{columns|count=2|
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
*Beedrill
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
*Blastoise
</div>
*Chansey
----
*Charizard
Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
*Clefairy
----
*Goldeen
<pre>
*Hitmonlee
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
*Koffing
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
*Meowth
</div>
*Mew
</pre>
*Onix
*Snorlax
*Starmie}}


:::Except that's not as arbitrary based on the fact that Assist Trophies have ''Super Mario'' representation mixed in, unlike Poke Ball Pokemon, which have none at all. All relevance to ''Super Mario'' (even if considering it's a stretch) is saying "A ''Super Mario'' fighter can use this item and cause one of these Pokemon to appear from it." That's sufficient enough; anything else is bloat that can be found elsewhere in more detail in any case. The Charizard argument not hold up because he's a playable fighter in later Super Smash Bros. games, overshadowing his status as just a Poke Ball Pokemon, while Assist Trophies (again, subject to separate discussion) are part of a set that happens to have a few ''Super Mario'' characters within. Should the lists be simplified, his fighter profile can be linked to on the ''Super Smash Bros. Melee''. And if the List of SSB items page is linked to, that may not necessarily be the case. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:38, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
::::You're missing the point. Assist Trophies that have no other relevance to ''Mario'' should not have any more priority than any of the Pokémon just because some of the ''other'' Assist Trophies are ''Mario''-based, because functionally, they're the same item-by-function, just with a different pool of summons. Doing so is, indeed, quite arbitrary. (Also, on my screen at least, that columns thing manages to be even more bloated by bloating in ''two'' dimensions rather than just one.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:41, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
::::Basically, the game pages should not be ''Mario''-focused, they should be game-focused. For example, Jigglypuff does not need a ''page'' on the Super Mario Wiki, but the ''Super Smash Bros.'' page ''does'' need a section for Jigglypuff in the character list. This goes for every other element of the game too (including the Ball'mons and Assist Trophies in later ones), regardless of where they link, whether on-site or off-site. Outright not listing them isn't "only covering relevant things," it's hiding the fact they are there in the first place, which is a disservice in every respect. We should say what the game has, ''not'' limit it to what originated in a ''Mario''-allied game, because that's not the extent of what the game contains. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:57, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
</div>
:::::It's a wiki on ''Super Mario''. It can balance both game-focused and ''Super Mario'' focused, which is a lot more thoughtful consideration than just "I don't know what stays what goes, let's cover it all." In that case we may as well merge SmashWiki into this wiki, something that I'm sure nobody wants. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:03, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
----
::::::Except that's not even remotely what I'm saying to do. I'm saying to include links off-site and just have listings, images, and descriptions for everything, not have pages for everything (and ''definitely'' not Smashwiki's overly-technical "this character's standard punch got buffed 3 points of damage since the last game, but their walking speed was nerfed by 2 points" thing that overruns that site). Just because an "affiliated" wiki covers something does not mean we are not ''allowed'' to cover it as well, that would be silly. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:07, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
:::::::Your second point basically shows that you take issue with SmashWiki, being why you want a lot of ''Smash Bros.'' content to stay here. Didn't you vote to want Smash Bros. content to have their own pages in earlier Smash Bros. proposals? So if I had to guess, this is trying to haphazardly justify the inclusion of something that is not ''Super Mario'' while at the same defend the content not having individual pages based on outcomes of earlier proposals that you presumably opposed? It's inconsistent, so the entire argument is built on "keep everything because it's arbitrary to decide what isn't ''Super Mario''" when it's clear as day that Poke Ball Pokemon are not ''Super Mario''. And of course that's silly, since both us and them both cover the ''Super Mario'' aspects of ''Smash Bros.'' because of the overlap. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:13, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
----
::::::::I see now you are doing the {{wp|ad hominem}} now, but either way I am allowed to think Smashwiki does things poorly, but that is not the main reason I want the game pages to cover what they do - I have already explained why I want them to. And yes, ''7 years ago'' I did vote to keep full coverage, but I'm past that now. You have no reason to bring that up now; I might as well bring up how you, less than a year ago, [https://www.mariowiki.com/Virtual_Boy?action=history attempted to forcibly remove content from console pages because it didn't directly relate to Mario], despite no one else agreeing with you to do that. I have already stated that ''currently'', I don't think everything should have a page, but its existence should be ''acknowledged'' - and yes, with a visual representation. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:20, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
<pre>
:::::::::And I have explained why I think it's redundant to have the Poke Ball Pokemon lists, countless times. I thought I responded directly to the points you were making? I assumed you took issue with SmashWiki being the reason for your defense, to which you responded that it isn't. The Virtual Boy example probably shows why proposals exist, so that such things are discussed before the big changes are enacted. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:26, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
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::::::::::In general, I am very anti-deletion because I want to keep history intact (and if possible, curated). That's why I prefer pages being turned into redirects rather than deleted outright. Turning images into redlinks on page history is directly counter to that, particularly when they aren't replaced with new ones. I find such practices destructive. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:33, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed''' {{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reasons:{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
:::::::::::Well, removals have happened before. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:52, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
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::::::::::::They have. And from my perspective, if it even had a reason to be somewhere, it should be curated in some manner - this obviously doesn't count things like what's listed on the "non-Mario content" section of BJaoDN, because most of that is nonsense that doesn't even have a tenuous connection, but there is a connection here. That's hardly a novel perspective either, given that "Flashpoint" thing that was made for curating Adobe Flash-based games. While I try to keep good faith, my gut feeling on that sort of permanent, unviewable removal equates it to wanton destruction. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:00, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
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:::::::::::::If the info is unique and can't be found elsewhere, that's one thing, but no real loss is done if it's a duplication of something that can be read elsewhere. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:03, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::That's just it; it's not a "duplicate" because our coverage styles are just totally different because we are a very different community, and it's wrong to put upon another wiki like that. I guess the main reason ''Mario'' covering ''Smash'' is more valid than the other series included is that ''Mario'' is already very much multi-genre. ''Pokemon'', ''Kirby'', ''Zelda'', et al. usually keep to their core genre with very rare outliers (like an occasional pinball game or something), so their wikis tend to not have systems in place to cover that sort of thing. Of the franchises that have been represented in every ''Smash'' game since the first one, ''Mario'' has always had the most representation due to also covering those other franchises as mentioned before; in the first game, there are four ''Mario''-based fighters (Mario, Yoshi, DK, Luigi), five stages (Peach's Castle, Yoshi's Island, Congo Jungle, Mushroom Kingdom, and Meta Crystal), numerous stage gimmicks and cameos for each of those (Lakitu, Fly Guy, Goonie, Super Happy Tree, Necky, Barrel Cannon, Piranha Plant, Buzzy Beetle, Koopa Troopa, POW Block, Brick Block, and more), six usable items (Fire Flower, Star, both Shells, Hammer, Bob-omb), and one of Master Hand's attacks (Bullet Bill). ''Zelda'' gets one fighter, one stage, and one item, ''Kirby'' gets one fighter, one stage, three stage elements, and two items, ''Pokemon'' gets two fighters, one stage, several stage elements, and one item with all the appearances it spawns, ''Metroid'' gets one fighter, one stage, and one stage cameo, ''Star Fox'' gets one fighter, one stage, and a few stage elements, ''Earthbound'' gets one character and ambiguously one item depending on how you treat the Home Run Bat, and ''F-Zero'' gets a single fighter. Of these, the only one that ''approaches'' the ''Mario'' representation in amount is ''Pokemon'', and it's mostly focused on the very subject of this proposal. That is why ''Mario'' will inherently get more coverage on this, and why by that point it makes the most sense to include the rest on the game page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:21, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::If we're going by the fact that it's not a duplication from what can be found elsewhere, it should probably present itself differently, especially by virtue of ''Super Mario''. ''Yoshi'', ''Wario'', and ''Donkey Kong'' are not real franchises, and even if they are called franchises, they're more of collective terms referring to their starring roles in ''Super Mario'' games, regardless of distinct symbols or not (after all, ''Wrecking Crew'', starring Mario, has distinct symbol in later ''Smash Bros.'' games). And by the terms of majority representation, again, I'd expect it to apply to groupings that have at least something to do with ''Super Mario''. "Might as well cover it all" has no bearing on the fact that one grouping in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' games does not have any ''Super Mario'' elements. Even groupings with ''Super Mario'' elements have been trimmed off of game pages, like how Trophy Tussle was deleted, the non-''Super Mario'' Challenges, and the trophy lists, the latter not being listed on the game pages at all. On a separate, unrelated argument, I could deem trophies, something original to ''Smash'', as being more intrinsic than the Poke Ball Pokemon. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:31, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::In each of those cases the images were still kept, though, as they should be. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:38, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Game & Watch images were deleted before for lack of relevance to ''Super Mario'', I think, in response to the outcome of a proposal restricting coverage to only ''Game & Watch Gallery'' games (with Modern remakes) and ''Super Mario''-themed variations (such as ''Ball'' in SMB Game & Watch). [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:42, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Those aren't Smash Trophies or Trophy Tussle, which is what was being referred to. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:47, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Also, yes, those are franchises, Nintendo markets them as such - the very definition of a franchise. May I remind you the original game wasn't ''Mario'', it was ''[[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]]''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:32, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::Then from that perspective, should we start a proposal to rename this wiki to "Donkey Kong Wiki", then? I thought you told me they merged into this wiki. Something isn't adding up if we're calling them separate franchises but not covering them on separate wikis. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:49, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::Why in the world would being a separately marketed franchise ''automatically require'' a different wiki, and vice-versa? That logic doesn't add up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:53, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::For the reason why different Nintendo franchises have their own wikis. For the reason why we have Bulbapedia for Pokemon information and not the Super Mario Wiki for Pokemon information. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:57, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::That is a very one-way approach to how this works. Nintendo doesn't have so many franchises that constantly intermingle like these ones do, but if you look at other ones, you see more of that. For instance, the ''Street Fighter'' wiki covers ''Final Fight'' just fine, because there's such significant overlap. It's not about matching the divisions, it's about doing what is the most efficient for that specific case, which is ''the entire thing I have been arguing in favor of this entire discussion''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:04, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::::The "intermingling" in this case refers to the fact that these are all ''Super Mario'' characters, unlike Link and Isabelle, even though they appear in ''Mario Kart 8''. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:27, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::::::::I'd say it's moreso the frequency of said intermingling and that in most cases they seem to inhabit the same world; ''Zelda'' and ''Animal Crossing'' only get occasional appearances. Anyway, fun fact: the wiki in the ancient days used to have a page listing everything from the ''Banjo-Kazooie'' games and ''Conker'' games because said characters made their first by-release-date appearance in ''Diddy Kong Racing''. That deletion was justified (though I'll admit its presence was the only reason I found ''Banjo-Kazooie'' again when I did after I briefly played it at a cousin's house when I was a toddler). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:52, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::That's pretty embarrassing that they covered that at one point, especially when considering Microsoft owns the Banjo and Conker IPs. This wiki has improved a lot since then, for sure. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 22:59, August 22, 2024 (EDT)


{{@|Super Mario RPG}} Can I just say, the proposal as it's being presented right now seems a bit misleading. The title makes it sound like you're just removing images, when your edit suggests that you're also removing the Pokemon tables in all of the ''Smash Bros.'' game articles. You should probably change the title to match that. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 13:48, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
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:Sure. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:01, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s):<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
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{{@|Super Mario RPG}} I am not personally very invested in Pokémon material on the wiki, so I am abstaining for now, but if people want to represent these games on Super Mario Wiki, is there much intrinsic harm in that? I can see the benefit in having access to different sources that cover material in different ways. Otherwise we would probably need to discard all of our ''[[Super Mario 64]]'' material because that is the sole focus of our NIWA-affiliate {{iw|Ukikipedia|Main Page|Ukikipedia}}. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:05, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
This should fix some things, and I also recommend you change the title or at least context of this proposal. If so, then I might change my vote. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 19:58, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:I've had lots of discussion above that's probably given most points behind my argument. In one of the later messages I noted how ''Super Mario'' material in Smash Bros. is covered both here and on SmashWiki for obvious reasons, but that's because it falls under a key part of both wiki's scope. And I don't even need to say why we have a ''Super Mario 64'' on this wiki. This proposal isn't looking to completely axe any and all forms of mentioning Pokemon, but do consider how the Pokemon article was removed from unanimous consent and my point behind the grouping of Poke Ball Pokemon being 100% Pokemon and not a variety of franchise representations, like more key components of the Smash series like stages, items, and fighters. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:52, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:I {{plain link|https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&diff=prev&oldid=4457576|fixed this problem}} for you. How does it look? {{User:GuntherBayBeee/sig}} 09:40, December 10, 2024 (EST)


{{@|Hewer}} There's probably a lot of ''Smash'' coverage discrepancies due to several proposals in the past, some succeeding and some not. If there's other ''Smash Bros.'' groupings without any ''Super Mario'' involvement, like non-''Super Mario'' stage hazards, which are a component of a stage, those should absolutely become the focus of a separate proposal. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 16:50, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
===Decide what to do with Template:Move infobox===
:OK, but why should Venusaur be removed from the Stage Hazard list but Whispy Woods is perfectly fine (to say nothing about all the ones in later games)? It doesn't make sense. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:26, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
A while ago (November 4th, specifically), I created [[Template:Move infobox]]. After all, we had templates for essentially all the Browse tabs on the wiki sidebar, except for moves. There WERE templates about specific types of moves, such as [[Template:M&L attack infobox]], but no general template in the same vein as items, characters, species, games, locations, etc.  
::This proposal is about limiting excessive Pokemon information relating to ''Smash Bros.'' Since this proposal already covers a lot, it may make sense to run a separate concurrent proposal to remove all non-''Super Mario'' stage hazard components. The deletion of the Pokemon article in particular has set a precedent to removing excessive Pokemon coverage, and should this pass, the precedent (in a separate proposal) would be to discuss the removal of other non-''Super Mario'' stage hazards. This proposal was originally just about the Poke Ball Pokemon, but Koopa con Carne's support vote made me realize it could apply to the Saffron City hazards too. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:49, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::I'm going to be blunt - the current state of the Smash 64 page is how all our ''Smash'' pages should be. No more, no less. Linking to other wikis as necessary, but acknowledging the existence of what else is there in a consistent manner. ''That'' is what should be proposed. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:53, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::So in other words, deleting the non-''Super Mario'' stage hazards doesn't have a precedent yet. One could make a proposal about taking out all of the stage hazard lists, and someone could point out the inconsistency of keeping that out while keeping Poke Ball Pokemon lists. One thing at a time. It's not easy to cover all of the loose ends under a single proposal. If this passes and another proposal for deleting non-''Super Mario'' stage hazards is made, perhaps unique input would be given. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:57, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I just cannot understand why you think removing good information makes things "better." Its origin is irrelevant when it's on the page for a crossover title, not a page for those individual subjects. It's better the way it is now, the only thing that needs changed is those ridiculous series-wide "list" pages (and enemy list pages) need to be merged into the game pages. ''That'' is where the focus should be. Not on trying to "fix" what isn't broken. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:04, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::::For the reason that me and the others supporting the proposal see it as lacking relation to ''Super Mario''. Anyways, I've added another voting option to remove Poke Ball Pokemon in consideration (but not exclusively to) those who want a single future proposal that concerns non-''Super Mario'' stage hazards outright. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:07, August 22, 2024 (EDT)


I know folks here care a lot about how we cover content pertaining to the ''Super Mario'' franchise. That is appreciated passion, but a lot of the discussion here has devolved into uncharitable accusations at one another, which both weakens one's points and, more importantly, is just unkind. I encourage folks to maintain {{wp|good faith}}. Even if one has trepidations about the long-term consequences of this specific proposal if it passes, there was absolutely no harm in raising it. What we have here are dueling perspectives on what type of coverage is extraneous and what is within our scope, and that is not as huge a deal as it is being made out to be. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:09, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
I discussed it on the Discord briefly, nobody said no, and a bit of feedback later about how it should look and what it should have, I created it. It has since been applied to exactly four pages at the time of writing, half of which I was the one to apply it to. In hindsight, this could've used with a proposal instead of me just making it, so here's a belated one.
:If you noticed I actually mentioned that very thing (ctrl+f "good faith" lol) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:35, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::Coincidentally, earlier, I wanted to say how the discussion felt as if they reached a point of spiraling in circles, or even derailed to off-topic, but was worried that statement would be deemed discourteous. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 22:37, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
:::Yeah no worries, we definitely have irreconcilable differences in how we view this. If you want to stop debating this directly, then I do too. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:47, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::::That's how I feel. It seems to have taken its course. With every response, we each felt compelled to respond. I think every position on each side has been exhausted, or stated on the comments above. There's people who took my side on this and others who took yours. Someone apparently read everything below in the comments as well before casting a vote. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 22:50, August 22, 2024 (EDT)
::Doc von Schmeltwick: well. okey dokey, then. [[File:RosalinaPortraits3-MPSR.png]] {{User:Mario/sig}} 22:45, August 22, 2024 (EDT)


==Changes==
Should we keep '''Template:Move infobox''' around? If we do keep it, is it good as is, or does it need changes?
===Shorten disambiguation identifiers "(Super) Nintendo Entertainment System" to "(S)NES"===
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 1st, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Keep Move infobox, as is====
#{{User|Sparks}} I can see this template working really well for moves that aren't in every ''Mario'' game, like [[Spin]]. This has lots of potential!
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We don't see why not--having a dedicated Moves infobox could come in handy, especially if we get any more Mario RPGs in the wake of the weird little renaissance period we've been getting with the back-to-back-to-back SMRPG remake, TTYD remake, and release of Brothership. Per proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
 
====Keep Move infobox, but with changes====
 
====Delete Move infobox====
 
====Move infobox Comments====
Considering the nature of the attack infoboxes, wouldn't it be weird to have moves all in purple but a Mario & Luigi attack use yellow and green and a Paper Mario attack use white and green? Should there be variants of the Move infobox to match the color schemes of existing templates? If an article is covering multiple related moves, how will the infobox work? (ex. [[Handstand]], [[Cap Throw]], [[Roll]], [[Slide Kick]]... there's more of these than I thought). What happens when a move is referenced in somewhat less "move-y" ways? Okay, that last one is kinda strange, but basically I mean "dashing" in Super Mario Run is just a fancy animation, Mario & Luigi Dream Team has an animation where Giant Luigi crouches (with posing and skidding clearly meant to be a platformer callback), to slide under an attack. Do these instances get incorporated into the infobox? Continuing the train of thought, what about sports games? Yoshi can Flutter Jump as his special action on Mario & Sonic games. Does that count as a method of input for a Flutter Jump? [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)
:that's a lot of very interesting questions!
:*i went with purple to set it apart from the already taken light red (game), green and white (character), blue (level), pink (location), grey (item) and navy/grey (species) infoboxes. changing the color could be a good idea.
:*as for sorting which moves "count" or not, we have to decide these things for other types of subject too, after all, and they get infoboxes. it's a valid concern, though! {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 15:09, December 20, 2024 (EST)
 
===Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"===
There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?
 
Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.
 
This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Mario}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Blank support====
#{{User|Mario}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
#{{User|PopitTart}} <small>(This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)</small>
#{{User|Altendo}} <small>(Look at the code for my reasoning)</small><!---It might not seem annoying, but over time, or answering multiple proposals at once, it can start putting stress. Copy-pasting can be done, but it is just much easier to not type anything at all.---->
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}}
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really ''are'' just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at ''all.'' <small>(Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)</small> <!---Silent per all.---->
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
#{{user|TheDarkStar}} - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
#{{user|Ninja Squid}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.


The console names "Nintendo Entertainment System" and "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" are way too long and clunky, so much so that the abbreviations "NES" and "SNES" are commonly used in the body of articles throughout the wiki, even though we usually don't use abbreviations. And yet, we still use the full console names in the disambiguation identifiers of article names:
====Blank Oppose====
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
#{{User|Technetium}} I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone ''does'' provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} {{color|white|Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type ''two words''.}}
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all <small>(is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)</small>
#{{User|Axii}} Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides ''some'' insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
#{{user|DesaMatt}} Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.


*[[Mario is Missing! (Nintendo Entertainment System)|''Mario is Missing!'' (Nintendo Entertainment System)]]
====Blank Comments====
*[[Mario is Missing! (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)|''Mario is Missing!'' (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)]]
I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)
*[[Wario's Woods (Nintendo Entertainment System)|''Wario's Woods'' (Nintendo Entertainment System)]]
:I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
*[[Wario's Woods (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)|''Wario's Woods'' (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)]]
::There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:::My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
::::My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the  odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:{{@|Mario}} I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)


The identifiers are so long that they take up more than half of the article name and are less immediately legible than their respective abbreviations. This is particularly jarring on the ''[[Mario is Missing!]]'' disambiguation page because the abbreviations are used on the page (e.g., "''Mario is Missing!'', the '''NES''' game") but it links to articles with names containing the full console names ("''Mario is Missing!'' ('''Nintendo Entertainment System''')").
Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)


That's why I propose to shorten "Nintendo Entertainment System" and "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" to "NES" and "SNES" respectively in disambiguation identifiers of article names:
I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring ''a'' written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)


*{{fake link|''Mario is Missing!'' (NES)}}
===Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games===
*{{fake link|''Mario is Missing!'' (SNES)}}
{{early notice|December 25}}
*{{fake link|''Wario's Woods'' (NES)}}
The aims of this proposal is to repeal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Decide how to handle conjectural sections about Super Mario Galaxy planets/areas|this one]] that passed earlier this year. I will reiterate my position here:
*{{fake link|''Wario's Woods'' (SNES)}}
<blockquote>The planetary bodies in galaxies do not just "lack" publicly accessible names - they are straight up not supposed to have names. The Shogakukan guidebook for ''Mario Galaxy'' does not give planets name. The game does not give planets name. The instruction booklet does not give planets name. The only "source" that applies discrete names for planets are from the developers and we have no reason to think these were intended to be the planets. These galaxy articles are generally a bit outdated, and I think the mistake in the first place was suggesting that some of the planets have real names "except where otherwise noted." They largely do not. I think it would would healthier to recognize that they are just different sections of a greater whole, much like areas in courses for the earlier 3D games, and apply titles accordingly.</blockquote>
To elaborate on my perspective, I think using dev data to provide names for these planets is completely fine, and I understand the desire to do so. Citing the Prima Games guidebooks for potential names for these areas is fine. That is not what this proposal is about. Rather, integrating the ''templates'' themselves - be it for conjectural or dev data-derived names - underneath the individual headers for each planet, in my view, looks very poor, as you can see here for [[Yoshi Star Galaxy#Planets|Yoshi Star Galaxy]] and [[Honeyhive Galaxy#Planets/Areas|Honeyhive Galaxy]]. They are detractingly eye-catching and break these articles without substantive benefit. I think having a nonintrusive note at the top or bottom of these articles - as was the case before the proposal I link to above passed - is perfectly sufficient and healthier for these articles.


Please note that there is already an article which uses an abbreviated identifier: "[[Building World (Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters for SNES)|Building World (''Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters'' for SNES)]]", although if we decide to keep the full identifiers, maybe we should rename it to "{{fake link|Building World (''Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters'' for Super Nintendo Entertainment System)}}" for consistency?
I provide two options:
#'''Support: Do not put conjectural and dev-data name templates beneath the names of individual planets and areas in  the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games''': This is a full repeal of the proposal I link to above.
#'''Oppose: Change nothing'''


'''Proposer''': {{User|Jdtendo}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>August 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to August 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support (SNES)====
====Support: Do not put templates underneath the name's of planets and areas====
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposal and similarly passed earlier proposal on shortening identifiers of the second and third ''Donkey Kong Country'' games.
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} The previous solution looked a lot nicer. I also agree with Nintendo101 that we should rethink how we approach planet names in general. They don't necessarily "need" names any more than specific portions of levels in other games do.
#{{User|Mario shroom}} too long, agree.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} I still don't agree with the "planets are not supposed to have names" argument, but I do agree that having templates beneath every section heading is excessive.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Let's simplify the names.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Waluigi time. The overall assumption that the planets have names unless otherwise stated feels like the consequence of a decision made very, very early on into the wiki, that's just kind of gone unquestioned or unnoticed until very recently. This won't stop that particular case of WikiJank™ completely, but it's a step in the right direction.
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all.</strike>
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} if all the names are unofficial, then we only need to say it once. if there's an official name, we can just say "all names are unofficial unless specified" and specify in the one planet that has a name (is there any planets with names even???). having the template on each individual section is both ugly and inefficient
#{{User|Mario}} Yeah, the setup before this was satisfactory. Per Evie, but I also agree with Waluigi Time that we probably don't need to require naming these parts of the level either.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} I always thought assigning these objects meant to be part of the environment conjectural templates has always struck me as odd and I don't know why only Super Mario Galaxy gets singled out out of all games. We don't name the rooms the Mario Party minigames take place in.
#{{User|Tails777}} I was sincerely confused when I saw the templates put back on the various galaxy articles and questioned "Why? It was better beforehand." Per all.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} In the longer-term, WT and Nintendo101 bring up points which ought to be considered. In the shorter term, this would be a beneficial first step to de-cluttering these sections for better readability.
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Nintendo101, Waluigi Time, and Porple's comment below.
#{{User|MCD}} Per N101, WT and Porple below. I also agree our attitude on what counts as "conjectural" when it comes to naming planets needs a rethink, i.e. it's not conjecture to call the planet the player starts on the "starting planet" because that's just a factual description. (Also, why does [[Starting Planet]] just redirect to a random galaxy? lol)


====Oppose (Super Nintendo Entertainment System)====
====Oppose: Keep the templates====
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't see much of a problem with [[The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens|long names]], and I'd rather go without the inconsistency created by these being the only shortened console names. And yes, I suppose we should move the Building World page too, like how "Beach Volleyball (''Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games'' for 3DS)" got moved to "[[Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for Nintendo 3DS)|Beach Volleyball (''Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games'' for Nintendo 3DS)]]".
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I'm opposing this proposal ''as currently slated to be implemented'' — as in, just removing [[Template:Conjecture]] and [[Template:Dev data]] from these sections and leaving it at that. These need to be marked, and I don't feel that an "unless otherwise noted" disclaimer is an elegant way to do that. However. There is a way of accomplishing this that I ''would'' be amenable to: replacing those templates with [[Template:Conjectural]] or a new dev data equivalent to it. This is the same way our glitch pages do it, for exactly the same reason you want to get rid of these templates on the galaxy pages. I think it makes perfect sense to use this convention here as well to solve this problem.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Hewer. While these shortened versions do make for fine redirects (and honestly, I kinda hope these do get made for other games in the form of redirects, but that's neither here nor there), we probably shouldn't be enforcing these as being the default name unless it's a part of a global move to abbreviate the console names for the articles of ''every'' game--not just one random edutainment game.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Hewer and Camwoodstock.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all


====Comments (''Mario's Early Years! Fun with Letters'' for SNES)====
====Comments on the planet template proposal====
now there's a bit of a grey area here, what about consoles like Nintendo 64, Nintendo Switch and so on? It'd feel somewhat weird to abbreviate one but not the others, there'd be an inconsistency. {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 09:33, August 13, 2024 (EDT)
I agree that we don't need the repeated templates, and the whole naming situation of the planets is a bit odd. Rather than giving the planets capitalized "names" (e.g. "Starting Planet") and noting them as conjectural, they should just be described in sentence case, at which point it should be somewhat obvious that it's a description and not a "name". For example, section heading "Starting planet" and text "The starting planet has..." You could do a single {{tem|conjecture|2=subsections=yes}} under the "Planets" heading if you really wanted to, but I think if we removed all the inappropriate capitalization then even that wouldn't be necessary. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 20:11, December 19, 2024 (EST)
:The thing with those is that the "Nintendo" part is needed or else it could just be confused as a random number (64) or word (switch). They also just aren't as long. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 09:57, August 13, 2024 (EDT)
::Besides, as I said in the proposal, the abbreviations "NES" and "SNES" are commonly used in the body of articles, but other console names are not abbreviated as frequently. For example, here is an extract of the [[LodgeNet]] article: "for the [[Super Nintendo Entertainment System|SNES]], [[Nintendo 64]], and [[Nintendo GameCube]]"; note how only the Super Nintendo Entertainment System's name is abbreviated whereas the other console names are written in full. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 10:09, August 13, 2024 (EDT)
:::I think the shortening of N64, GCN, GBA, etc. could use another propasal. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 21:30, August 13, 2024 (EDT)
::::{{@|Hewer}} Okay, [[The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens]]' name is ridiculous. I want to propose a shortening of the title, but I don't know enough about the character. But that just shows why page names shouldn't be too long. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:27, August 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::...Not to burst your bubble, but [[Talk:The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens#Move to The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before it Happens (take two)|we actually had a proposal to move it to its current name ''last month'']]. Prior to that, the article was merely titled "The Old Psychic Lady", which from what I can tell was actually ''never actually used like that in the episode''. She introduced herself by the full title of "The Old Psychic Lady with the Evil Eye Who Reads Fortunes and Knows Everything Before It Happens" (whether it used capital letters or not is unknown), and the Marios simply refer her to as the "crazy lady" or "that psycho lady" since they can't properly remember such a long name. Since "The Old Psychic Lady" never was used as one of the official names, and the wiki refers to her by her full name anyway, it was proposed to move the article to the lady's full title (I mean, at least "NES" and "SNES" are officially used abbreviations by Nintendo themselves and their full names were not created for comedic purposes). {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:50, August 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Arguments about the name being "ridiculous" or "too long" were used in the proposal linked to by Arend, and much like with those arguments, you haven't substantiated the claim very well. Why is a long page name "ridiculous" when it's just accurately referring to the subject? Why should we sacrifice accuracy in favour of a shorter page name? What about long page names is in any way disadvantageous? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:37, August 15, 2024 (EDT)


Tbh, I'd merge the two Building Worlds together if it were up to me, they're still both represented by the same icon in the map screen and differences can easily be mentioned in the article, it'd also be consistent with the rest of the Mario's Early Years Worlds. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:09, August 15, 2024 (EDT)
===Set Vector-2010 to the default wiki skin===
This proposal is about setting the 2010 [[mw:Skin:Vector|Vector]] as the default wiki skin ([https://web.archive.org/web/20160207064154/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/4/44/Logo_new-vector_screenshot.png screenshot here]) for desktop users, with the focus being on people who are new to wikis in particular, while obviously keeping the existing MonoBook skin as an option. What made me think to create this proposal is when I made a [[Talk:Main Page]] proposal about the to-do list tasks and how they are more accessible than clicking the "Wiki maintenance" on the sidebar, I had to uncomfortably squint to find "Wiki maintenance" on the wiki sidebar. But Vector-2010 has the sidebar links slightly larger and a bit more spaced out. With the existing interface, there could be some who may struggle to find options listed on the sidebar.


===Allow more "History of" articles under two more conditions===
While we're clearly different from Wikipedia (that's why I'm not Vector-2022, since it'd be too much of a departure and likely uncomfortable for several), I do want to refer to [http://web.archive.org/web/20180213165624/https://blog.wikimedia.org/2010/05/13/a-new-look-for-wikipedia/ this page], which summarizes why Wikipedia transitioned to it. Though it is vague, they cite accessibility as the reason, which I think this wiki has been taking steps toward doing.
This may be a small thing, but unlike the quotes, profiles, and even galleries, there is more restriction on which articles get to be split off into a History page. Please take note that proposal is not about amending the minimum number of bytes needed (150K) to split the History section of an article into its own page. It's about allowing more "History of" pages. The 150K guidelines already does not apply to splitting galleries, profiles, and quotes from the base article.


Should this proposal pass, more History pages would be allowed under the condition of the article either having a General information section with '''at least two subsections''' or the condition if there is a single section '''with a wikitable'''. This way, if a split were to occur, there's at least more information besides what is contained in the opening section. [[Luigi]], [[Yoshi]], [[Wario]], [[Princess Peach]], and other subjects with history pages all have something in common where their pages have well established General information sections, providing enough context about them, while the History page would serve as a comprehensive read on their individual appearances, which can be summarized on the main article. To me, it feels inconsistent that [[Wario]] and [[Bowser]] have their History pages split but not their respective partners, [[Waluigi]] and [[Bowser Jr.]], both of whom are recurring.
I'll cite my reasons for preferring Vector and applying this to possible people who are visiting a wiki for the first time. The text is larger, which is especially important for larger screen monitors, some of the lesser used tabs are collapsible on the sidebar, summarizing the most commonly used options, and the user links at the top right are also more noticeable and less close to the body of the article where the content is read.


The reason I want to give exception if the section has a wikitable is because of the [[Barrel]] page, where the barrels section is tucked all the way at the bottom, below a long History section, so it cannot be seen immediately by readers, many of whom may not see the section otherwise.
Though it could take time getting used to the Edit button being on the right (not to mention the search button), the button is at least larger, making it more usable on even lower quality screen monitors, and I like how it's separate from the Page and discussion options, meaning that options that involve viewing articles are on the left while options that involve editing or changing the page in some form are on the right.


If the article has been featured in the past (e.g. [[Chain Chomp]]), a different proposal would be required before splitting it, or some other democratic matter decided upon by the community (e.g. adding a talk template and overhauling the page in accordance to community input on the talk page).
If this proposal passes and others don't like the change, they can always return to the MonoBook option in their [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering|preferences]].


'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} As proposer.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Hewer}} These seem like very random metrics compared to the logical one of [[MarioWiki:Article size|article size]], especially since they're based on other sections of the article rather than the actual history section that's being split. History sections are split so that articles stay at reasonable sizes with reasonable loading times, not to aid presentation of the rest of the article.  (Honestly I'd rather do ''less'' splitting of history sections since it scatters information a bit, but I understand it's a practicality issue to have such huge pages worsening loading times.) If someone who wants information on the subject doesn't look at the whole of the subject's article, that's not our problem - the information on a merged page is still conveyed well, and the "issue" of having to do some scrolling to find certain sections is solved by the contents list at the top of the article that lists the sections.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Admittedly, this vote is largely a matter of preference--we just don't like Vector that much--but we can't think of any real reason to switch to Vector 2010 as the default over the current Monobook beyond the mentioned text spacing; while that is a nice boon, we personally find the weird gradient buttons for the various tabs up top a little grating looking, and we're a fan of the more compact design that Monobook provides--though, this is likely a byproduct of our personal preference for more neatly packed web design. And uh, the less said about the other two options (Vector 2022, and. Timeless. <s>Which is the most dated theme possible, namely to mid-2010s mobile web design.</s>), the better. If you like Vector 2010, that's great, and we're fine with that! Heck, if anyone likes Vector 2022 or Timeless, that's cool too, and more power to them! Variety is the spice of life, after all. But switching it to the default is something that should not be taken lightly, and the reasons for a switch in this proposal feel a little too loosey-goosey for us, we're sorry.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} I'd honestly rather merge a lot of the split history pages back.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per Camwoodstock.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} per Nightwicked Bowser.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I like how MonoBook looks a little more than Vector. It is what I am comfortable with. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} These split history pages are longer than Waluigi's entire page. Waluigi doesn't need to split when his page isn't long enough.
#{{User|Drago}} Per Nintendo101. I actually prefer the smaller text of Monobook since you can see more of the page at once. I also want to point out that although logged-in users like us can change the skin in preferences, we'd still be forcing the change on logged-out users.
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Firstly, Bowser Jr. ''does'' have his own [[History of Bowser Jr.|history page]] and secondly, I still think those pages are pretty easy to scroll through and find the information you want. This is actually the first time I learned that the article size has risen from 100kb, to 150kb, but regardless, that length makes much sense, because the articles could go on like novels at that point and the reasons for splitting articles is to make the pages load less. I'm all for more articles having their history pages split, but this is not the correct way to do it.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Drago.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Nintendo101 and Drago. I just don't see any reason to make this change.
#{{User|Dine2017}} Per all.
#{{User|Altendo}} I'm saying this as a Vector-2010 skin user, and I'll say that people have their preferences. I live Vector-2010 because that is how Wikipedia at least used to look before they switched to Vector (2022); On Wikipedia, Vector was renamed to Vector legacy (2010), while Vector 2022 is named Vector (2022). Although I do prefer Vector-2010, I know a lot of people that prefer Monobook, and even if not, this can be changed in the preferences. No need to change the default skin. I get that IPs can't change their appearance, but aside from that, users can, and what they see doesn't have to be default on the wiki. Everyone can change what they specifically see.


====Comments====
====Comments====
I'm a bit confused, what exactly is this proposal trying to change? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:49, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|Camwoodstock}} That is true that it's a major change. It's based mainly upon impression from newcomers from them seeing a more prominent edit tab, slightly larger text size, and other minor details like tab names that are easier to read (including a collapsible feature for the lesser used tab). The skin change was based on old Wikipedia research at the time (like how WikiLove was a result of their research). I have no strong feelings whether this passes or not. Although it's vague, since there's no way to tell the statistics (and the wiki's already successful at the moment), I still have a feeling it could help some, but to each their own. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:32, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:I'll give an example of what's allowed if this proposal passes. For the first condition, [[Waluigi]] article has at least two sections under General information. With that, the <nowiki>==History==</nowiki> section of Waluigi's article can be split into {{fake link|History of Waluigi}}. For the second condition, the [[Barrel]] page would split into {{fake link|History of barrels}} so that the "[[Barrel#Types of barrels|Types of barrels]]" (which qualifies as a subsection of "General information") is more accessible to the reader for its comprehensive wikitable. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:56, August 16, 2024 (EDT)
:We feel like if anybody would be capable of providing any statistics on skin usage, it'd be Porple, but even then, we don't actually know if that's one of the things he tracks, and it feels a little silly to pester him over this of all things... ;p {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:55, December 18, 2024 (EST)


===Require citations for names in other languages===
I'm okay with opposition, but in case of misunderstanding, this proposal isn't about personal preferences so much as what I believe to be a more ergonomic interface to a wider audience. I know we're not Wikipedia, but there's also the consideration that they've used the Vector skin longer than they had for MonoBook. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:45, December 19, 2024 (EST)
Recently, the issue of confirming names in other languages has been discussed on the wiki's Discord server. Put simply, there is a high likelihood that many of these names are fake or otherwise inaccurate, and as an English wiki, the majority of the userbase is unable to independently verify the accuracy of these names. As such, I believe it should be made mandatory for every name listed in the names in other languages sections to have a citation attached to it. Yes, this will be very, VERY difficult to do considering the sheer number of pages that will need to be gone through, but I think it is better to address this problem now rather than later. More and more games and media will release the longer we wait, only adding more to the workload.
:If it's what "you believe", then it ultimately (and probably unavoidably) is about personal preferences. Anyway, another consideration is the fact that people often prefer what they're used to. I feel like how long this wiki has used its skin is more relevant than how long Wikipedia has. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:39, December 19, 2024 (EST)
::{{@|Hewer}} I suppose I'm overthinking the ergonomic interface. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:19, December 20, 2024 (EST)


Note that for these citations, using text / quotes is just as valid as including a link or image. Unsourced names will also not be removed, but rather have the [citation needed] notice added.
==Miscellaneous==
===Use official alt text as a source===
{{early notice|December 24}}
What I refer to here as "{{wp|alt attribute|alt text}}" is text that is either:
*shown in place of a file, such as an image, when the file doesn't load;
*shown as a small note when you hover your mouse on an image on PC. See for yourself with this pic: [[File:Artwork - SUPER STAR.svg|30px|This is a Mario Star.]]


'''Proposer''': {{User|Technetium}}<br>
To quote the Wiki article I linked above, alt text "is used to increase accessibility and user friendliness, including for blind internet users who rely on special software for web browsing."
'''Deadline''': August 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
Nintendo's web content makes hefty use of this feature, particularly in [[Cat Transformation Center#Decorations|activities]] [[Holiday Create-a-Card (2024)#Decorations|on the]] [[Paper Mario: The Origami King Collage Maker#Decorations|Play Nintendo]] [[Nintendo Online Calendar Creator#Decorations 3|site]], where it is employed for decorative stickers users can select and manipulate. Alt text is certainly a unique means to convey information that, currently, is not treated in any the entries laid out in the wiki's "[[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|acceptable sources for naming]]", including entry 2 concerning web material, and hasn't been discussed to my knowledge. Since alt text can bear information of its own, as explained below, it might be time we decided if this quaint thing should be supported in the policy.
#{{User|Technetium}} As proposer. This would prevent fake names from being added. Even if a citation is not found, this proposal would let readers know to take foreign names with a grain of salt via the [citation needed] notice.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal. Misinformation is easy to get into a record and hard to remove. Best we avoid creating [https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/how-a-raccoon-became-an-aardvark Brazilian aardvarks].
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Strongly agree.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. I think the opposition is overlooking that a lot of false foreign names slip through because misguided editors try to machine translate. Without proper sourcing, it's very difficult to catch when they're added and how many of them are already on the wiki. It's just not feasible to expect readers to boot up a foreign copy because they're not that accessible - correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Switch is the first console where you can pick any translation across the board? If anything, maybe we could make an exception for names that have been verified in ''easily accessible'' translations. Also, if someone does verify it for themselves, how is anyone else supposed to know a name has been verified? Yes, solving this is going to be a lot of work, but it's already a problem and it's a problem that's only going to get worse the longer we do nothing about it.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per all.
#{{User|Drake Inferno}} Essentially agree with all other points here, but I also feel that a citation could probably in most cases outside of rare versions (which would be case-by-case) just be "where this comes from", rather than a fully formatted video/image/text citation. If a person Google Translates a name and adds it, that's one thing. But if the same person does that and then actually claims it came from the text of the game, that's actively lying, and also a bit of a barrier to entry encouraging people to do the work of verifying their info.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. We're a wiki; we should be striving to have accurate information, and just because it's a lot of effort doesn't mean it's "bad" or not worth it. And, as Waluigi Time points out, if we don't do something about this now, it's only going to become an even larger problem in the future. Just because the best time to start obtaining proper citations for foreign names was years ago doesn't mean it's not worth it to start now--there isn't a time limit on this!
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Waluigi Time, Drake Inferno and Camwoodstock.
#{{User|Mario}} There's a lot of times I wonder where the sourced names come from, and often times, foreign names are useful bits of information to rely on especially when there's shaky North American localization involved, such as [[Pale Piranha]]'s case. A while back, there was a huge discussion in [[Talk:Mushroom World]] related to how we cover the scope of the article, and "Planeta de los Hongos" and "Kinoko no Sekai" were brought up a couple times as if they were legitimate, which added to the confusion. I queried there if there's a source for "Planeta de los Hongos" and we did get an answer and had those names removed. This proposal will help clear up and hopefully prevent future confusion in some of these discussions. It's also in the proposal's favor that we did find a lot of backward translated names in the same scope as "Planeta de los Hongos". I assume some names are relatively self evident, such as generic objects (banana) or Red Shell or Metal Mario, so they don't require a citation but there are plenty of enemy names where it's much better safe than sorry to indicate where these names were found.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} I feel like this is a ''tiny'' bit excessive, but it will help with preventing fake names from being put on the wiki, especially with foreign ones that are not Japanese (because Japanese names are relatively well-known for Mario characters, I think).
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all


====Oppose====
The following aspects should be kept in mind as a decision is made on this topic:
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per my comments below.
*tempting as it may be, alt text cannot be construed as internal material in the way filenames are. A filename, whether pertaining to a file in a video game or [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider_Nintendo's_website_filenames_being_used_as_a_source|a file on a web page]], serves a utilitarian purpose that is, above all, an organizational tool meant to aid the developers of said game or website. Contrarily, the very purpose of alt text is to be seen by the end user (that is, the regular Joe or Jane the product is being shown to) under special circumstances.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Jdtendo, this feels excessive.
*on the other hand, alt text may display some level of unprofessionality or unfamiliarity with the source material on the part of its author--that is to say, it can lend to some pretty weird information about a given subject. The few examples I've come across are an [https://web.archive.org/web/20221204022632/https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/nintendo-holiday-ornament-creator/ ornament resembling a mushroom item being referred to as a "Toad ornament"] <small>(play.nintendo.com via archive.org)</small>, [[Koopa Paratroopa]] [https://web.archive.org/web/20210810004641/https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/nintendo-online-calendar-creator being called a "Koopa Flying Trooper"] <small>(play.nintendo.com via archive.org)</small>, and [[Meowser]] [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/bowsers-fury-cat-photo-booth/ being called "Cat Bowser"] <small>(play.nintendo.com)</small>. I'd like to stress that '''this is far from the norm''', as evident in those links--Mario is called "Mario", Goomba is "Goomba" etc., heck, some lesser known characters like {{iw|nookipedia|Lottie}}, {{iw|nookipedia|Wardell}}, and {{iw|nookipedia|Niko}} from ''Animal Crossing'' are correctly identified in that Ornament Creator activity--, but I believe it's fair of me to show you a comprehensive image of the situation.
#{{user|Apikachu68}} Per my comments below. I don't think pages should be inundated with citations.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Holding English and foreign in-game names to different standards will lead to more issues than that solves; if the source comes from something rare like an iQue translation, then citation makes perfect sense, but for the most part, this is trivial to retrieve nowadays provided you have a nearby save file due to the rise of region-free system languages.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I understand the viewpoint of the proposal, but I believe its application would be way too broad and would surely result in a sizeable amount of redundance. On the one hand, yes, a lot of non-English names either originate from volatile sources (see [[List of LEGO Super Mario set names in other languages (A–C)]], which cites product pages on LEGO.com) or obscure sources (see the myriad of references to licensed guides) and require some explicit context to justify their place here. Even names that are used directly in a game may need citing if they're obtainable in incredibly specific scenarios within that game, such as the names of [[Bath Bomb|these]] [[Toy Duck|background]] [[Hoop|objects]] that appear only 2 weeks a year in a live service game, or information deriving from those iQue translations mentioned by LinkTheLefty. On the other hand, Jdtendo raises a good point that often a source is so ubiquitous that it can just as easily be deduced from reading the article. Normally, I don't think Mario, Peach, or Bowser, or even less popular subjects such as [[Parry (character)|Parry]], [[The InterNed]], and [[Ratfael]], require such citations, simply because their non-English names are obtainable in much the same way as their English counterparts--by following their respective games with a minimum to moderate amount of attention, the only difference being that you'd need to switch the game to another language setting or, at worst, seek a different localization for it. A case-by-case treatment is in order, but I disagree with turning this treatment into a sitewide requirement.
#{{User|Arend}} I get the concern, but most of the other-language names come from the same in-game source as the English one. Sure, sometimes you get mistakes like [[Special:Diff/4227139|someone assuming the Dutch name for "Crystal Star" is "Juweelster" like how the Crystal Stars are being called the "Juweelsterren"]] without realizing that the name "[[Crystal Stars]]" is more of an outlier compared to the other languages or that the game will tell with any of them the same "You Got a Crystal Star" message when collecting them and that their actual name is in the Crystal Stars submenu, but this should be verifiable for ''anyone'' who has a copy of the Switch version of ''The Thousand-Year Door'' considering any copy can be played in ''all of the available languages''. That [[Special:Diff/4273784|only another Dutch person such as myself cares enough to correct that mistake]] is not because of a lack of verifiable sources, but more of a lack of ''care of the wiki itself'' to verify it for themselves. Like Koopa con Carne said, this is more of a case-by-case basis rather than something that should be applied for literally every multilingual name documented on the wiki. Not only will it be such a hassle to not only add a "citation needed" tag to literally any non-English name that doesn't already have a source (or worse, ''removing them entirely'' which doesn't help the wiki in the slightest), but also scour through every other-lingual copy of every single Mario game and/or manual, take a screenshot or photo (good luck if you don't have a capture card or photo scanner) and upload it all to the wiki ''just'' to verify that yes, this name is legit – ''especially'' if it's not even necessary for the English names to go through all of that too, which is just a bit unfair IMO.
#{{User|YoYo}} per arend
#{{User|DandelionSprout}} As someone who've added quite a lot of language names for pages related to ''[[Princess Peach: Showtime!]]'' and some WarioWare games (e.g. Gold, Touched!, Mega), I must unfortunately say that it'd be nothing short of absolutely ridiculous to implement such a policy. For PPS, uploading 10-ish screenshots for each of approximately 65 pages would be unnecessary use of server hosting space (I am ''not'' going to upload '''650''' images just for the sake of PPS levels and characters!). And for Switch games in particular, it is pretty easy to check if names are accurate, now that many games do have their JP and Korean versions integrated into the Western game releases. The European versions of most DS and 3DS games can also crosscheck all Western languages' names.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I also work with foreign names myself, a lot -- a lot of the time I datamine them directly from the game, these are in-game names that are easy to rip. But requiring a ton of screenshots or digging through videos to hope you find one that displays the text is a huge waste of time. You can't really assume every necessary thing will be there: for example, I've only been able to find one [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIk5tHikH8Iorl1xNr6cCFdQgtaCBnNtV Dutch let's play] of ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', and it doesn't show things like the soundtrack titles, not to mention it wasn't uploaded until two years after the game came out. It was also incredibly difficult to find a Portuguese playthrough. And for foreign playthroughs of more obscure games or ones with less coverage, it'd be even more time-consuming.


====Comments====
Most importantly, beyond the typical "they offer unique names and spellings" claptrap, I've noticed that citing such material is genuinely practical in select situations. The one recent example that comes to mind is that the alt text of some Play Nintendo activities helped me delineate [[Gallery:Super Star#Notes|a few otherwise non-descript stars shown at Gallery:Super Star]]. The [[Super Star]] item, the one used in games to make player characters invincible, has in the past shared 2D graphics with the [[Power Star]] collectable McGuffins from 3D titles, so when identifying a given {{file link|MH Oct 4.svg|Star graphic}} with zero context to its nature, all bets are off; rather than resort to speculation and potentially erroneously place a [[Gallery:Miscellaneous stars|non-descript star graphic]] in the Super Star's gallery (as previously done), one can look up the graphic's alt text on Nintendo's website and use that as a crutch, if there's absolutely nothing else.
[[Goomther]]'s Italian name is ''Goombolone''. Source: that's his name in the Italian version of [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door|the game]]. [[Chef Soulfflé]]'s Dutch name is ''Kok Eauvain''. Source: that's his name in the Dutch version of [[Luigi's Mansion 3|the game]]. [[List of implied characters#Destiny Del Vecchio|Destiny Del Vecchio]]'s European French name is ''Allison Ledestin''. Source: that's her name in the European French version of [[The Super Mario Bros. Movie|the movie]]. In the above cases where the name is found in only one piece of media, the source would be completely redundant because it's evident that the source is the localized version of the game or movie where the character appears; that's for the same reason that we don't require citations for English names in those situations. I feel that the scope of this proposal is way too broad and should be focused on subjects for which the source is not evident. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 12:52, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
:The thing is that since the majority of the wiki's userbase is English speaking, we don't have easy access to those pieces of media to double check. That's why I think having a link to say, a video showcasing the name from the piece of media is preferable, vs say the English version where users can more easily check for themselves. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 13:05, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
::Alright. How do I prove that Destiny Del Vecchio's European French name is ''Allison Ledestin''? Do I need to upload a clip of the movie (and hope that it does not get copyright-claimed)? Say that I intend to add the French names of all characters in the upcoming ''Mario & Luigi'' game. Will I need to find a Let's Play that showcases every character (even the optional characters that most let's players won't even encounter) or make a screenshot for every single character, upload them, and painstakingly link each character name to the right screenshot? What about [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Celebration_Shot&diff=4319761&oldid=4312279 names added in batches] from the internal game files? Shall we still provide a source for all of those? {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 13:33, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
:::You bring up good points that I lack good answers to. I am fully aware of how much of a pain this proposal would be, but I can't think of any better options to prevent misinformation. I will say that as I mentioned below, existing names would not be deleted, but would simply have [citation needed] added. It is possible these citations will never be added, but I feel readers deserve to know that while the name they are seeing could very well be accurate, it is not 100% confirmed, so they should take it with a grain of salt. As for names in internal files, see my response to the comment below (assuming you are talking about the same sort of thing). [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 14:07, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
:::{{@|Jdtendo}} I would say, yes, absolutely. If you are adding a name of unclear origins, it 100% should be cited. If one is adding a valid name to the wiki, it is coming from somewhere anyways and citing that source is not an unreasonable expectation. If it is coming from a particular release of the game, then I think it is fine to cite the line of dialogue, scenario, or mission list like so: <code><nowiki><ref>"Not bad! I guess I chose the right guy to be my archenemy." – Bowser during "Darkness on the Horizon" (12 Nov. 2007). Super Mario Galaxy by Nintendo EAD Tokyo (North American Localization). Nintendo of America. Retrieved 18 May 2023.</ref></nowiki></code> This is already encouraged [[MarioWiki:Citations|in policy]], which states:
:::<blockquote>For the most part, you don't need to provide a reference for basic information taken directly from the games... However, if information is more obscure and its validity may be questioned, citing specific text found in the game (i.e. dialogue in an RPG), its manual or some other official guide book will help maintain the wiki's credibility.</blockquote>
:::Surely, non-English names that are difficult for the largely English-speaking userbase to verify can be described as "obscure and of questionable validity", especially since many foreign names are unsourced and are integrated by IP-addresses. These are very difficult to verify for anyone who is not adding it, and I do not agree that it is an unreasonable ask. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:54, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
::::If Option 1 of this proposal passes, integration like my ''Super Mario Galaxy'' example above is intuitively what I anticipated for non-English names that really do have in-game usage. I personally do not think providing videos or images is necessary, and I think internal file names can comfortably be used as a reference (like so: <code><nowiki><ref>internal file names</ref></nowiki></code>). - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:19, August 18, 2024 (EDT)


Some of the ''[[Dr. Mario World]]'' pages were taken from the datamine (examples: [[ice fan]], [[Muddy Coin]]), because when the game's service was shut down, there really is no way to verify the different languages. And thus, I felt that the datamine has accurate information because it came directly from the game. How would those be sourced? (Also unrelated to this proposal, but I would like to add is that the translation sections for those terms are incomplete.) [[User:Winstein|Winstein]] ([[User talk:Winstein|talk]]) 12:57, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
I propose three options for handling material presented in this manner.
:I definitely think names taken from datamines should count as being sourced, but I'm not sure how to mark that as I am worried it would give ill-meaning editors a way to put blatantly fake names in and claim that they're correct from a datamine. I also just don't know much about datamining and if it is possible at all to have citations for those, so I'd be glad to hear anyone else's opinions on the matter. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 14:07, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
#'''Cite alt text the same way media, including other web content, is typically cited.''' This means that if a Goomba's alt text is "Toothy Mushroom" in a context where most or every other element from the Mario series is given their usual names, then "Toothy Mushroom" is treated as a valid alternate name for the Goomba, shown on the Goomba article, and referenced from the aforementioned alt text. As argued above, alt text is meant to be seen by the end user, placing it somewhere above level 6 (concerning internal game filenames) of the current [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|source priority policy]] under this option.
::I'm someone who [[List of Yoshi's New Island Message Block hints|mines names from files]]. They are easily sourceable, you have to source the filepath for the text data you extracted it from ie "\message\EU_Russian\menu.msbt". {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:30, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
##Some exceptions can be made in this scenario. If, for instance, wiki users deem that a discrete piece of web content handles alt text in an overwhelmingly unprofessional manner, they may choose not to cite it. As a concrete example, the [https://web.archive.org/web/20241215120155/https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/nintendo-online-calendar-creator/ 2024 Calendar Creator] activity at Play Nintendo reuses the exact same alt text from its 2023 iteration for its decorative stickers, even though said stickers changed. According to that activity, [[Cheep Cheep]]s are also called "[[Monty Mole]]s" and [[Pokey]]s are also called "[[Chain Chomp]]s". This obviously represents some level of carelessness that shouldn't be reflected on the wiki even if the content is technically official. However, it's also the exception, not the rule.
#'''Cite alt text only for redirects and/or when no other source is available for a given thing.''' This means that "Koopa Flying Trooper" and "Cat Bowser" will be removed from the [[Koopa Paratroopa]] and [[Meowser]] pages respectively, but will remain as redirects to these pages. The explanations at [[Gallery:Super Star#Notes]] and [[Gallery:Miscellaneous mushrooms#Notes]] will remain as well, because alt text is currently the only means to identify certain graphics on those pages as being a particular type of star or mushroom.
#'''Do not cite alt text in any of the ways described above.'''


If this proposal passes, will unsourced foreign names be removed outright or will <sup>[citation needed]</sup> be added to them? - {{user|Apikachu68}} 1:23, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
'''Note:''' The articles concerning the Play Nintendo activities mentioned above ([[Cat Transformation Center]], [[Paper Mario: The Origami King Collage Maker]] etc.) will continue to list the alt text of each graphic as captions regardless of the proposal's outcome. This provides quick cross-referencing to someone who really wants to know how a decoration is called in those activities.
:[Citation needed] would be added, I think. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 13:29, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
::Alright, that is good to know. However, considering option 1 passes, 237 citations would need to be added to the [[List of Mario names in other languages]] page, and if the six citations already present are included, this would give the page a total of 243 citations, almost double the number of citations present on the [[List of Super Mario 64 glitches|List of ''Super Mario 64'' glitches]] page. (126) {{Unsigned|Apikachu68}}
::If I take an unqualified guess that 7,000 pages would be affected, with an average of 5 language names per page, it would make the wiki as a whole look strange at best, and very poorly worked on to outsider readers at worst, since possibly more than 30,000 "Citation needed" suffixes would've been added to the wiki. We'd almost overnight go from being a Super Mario franchise authority, to looking no more professional than random wikias. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 18:53, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
I dont think we ''need'' direct sources like videos or screenshots for every single name in a different language, but a simple "in-game" or "manual" tag would suffice, perhaps with a bit more specificity if its a particularly hard name to find in-game (i.e. "in-game, in Mushrise Park") or something like that. My main issue is that as it stands, made up names and names that are obviously real and found in-game are indistinguishable. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 20:25, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
:I can go and add something like that as another voting option, since it is still early enough for me to edit the proposal. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 20:30, August 18, 2024 (EDT)
::Not sure these need to be separate options, current sourcing already allows for just using text when appropriate (e.g. an in-game quote or an excerpt from a strategy guide - the latter could actually get us in trouble if we ''did'' require image citations). --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:14, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I just decided to remove Option 2, as I was already getting confused between the two yesterday, and I was not aware of quotes still using the same reference syntax at the time of adding Option 2. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 12:26, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
::::With the right game you can even go so far to source the file path of the file you can extract the name data from. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:30, August 19, 2024 (EDT)


@Waluigi Time: The "how is anyone else supposed to know a name has been verified" argument applies to English names too. Expecting readers to have access to every game covered on the wiki is unreasonable regardless of language. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:16, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
:The difference is this is an English wiki, so the majority of the readerbase is familiar with and has access to the English copy of the game. Even if you don't personally have a copy of a particular game, there's more users able to verify names and be able to catch something if there's an error. That's why I don't think the "we shouldn't treat English differently from other languages" argument holds water. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:41, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': December 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT


I don't know if "it's difficult for an English userbase to confirm in-game foreign language names" is all that valid anyway, considering LPs exist on YouTube and similar sites for pretty much any language the games are actually released in anyway. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:22, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
====Support: cite alt text for everything, including unique names====
:That doesn't seem entirely reliable. Most LPs, in my experience, don't look at every piece of text in the game, so you have to track down a gameplay video, find the portion of the game you're looking for, and then hope they didn't skip over anything. Even in games that aren't text-heavy there's things like SM64 signs, Mario Party board events etc. that can easily be skipped over. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:41, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} <!--This image contains alt text that shows my support of the proposal. It is not just a random pic.-->[[File:Go Mario.png|40px|Per proposal!]]
::For text hidden away ''that'' obscurely, we sometimes cite English ones as well, so it's still not all that different. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:43, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Hewer}} I'd think alt text would be covered under "web content" in the naming policy. There's no reason for it not to be, given that it's official text, and is more intended to be seen by the end user than image filenames, which [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider_Nintendo's_website_filenames_being_used_as_a_source|we already agreed are fine]]. If something's obviously a mistake, we can say that without discrediting the whole source, like we already do with other sources (e.g. the [[Cleft]] article acknowledging the "Moon Cleft" name from Super Paper Mario despite deeming it "mistaken").
::As an opposer, even I directly acknowledged that some in-game stuff is obscure enough that you'd need to state where it comes from. Do it case-by-case, otherwise you end up with Mario's Japanese name suddenly requiring a citation, which... yeah, lmao. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:43, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} <!--Same bit as KCC's vote, don't remove it please.-->[[File:WL4-Smile.png|The future is now, old man! We're in an era of Bluesky and screen reader compatibility! Okay, jokes aside, we're a little surprised that alt text hasn't been accounted for already, given it has been around the internet for a very, very long time. Still, better late than never, we suppose. Per proposal, and Hewer especially!]]
:They don't. ''Trust me, they don't.'' A majority of ''Princess Peach: Showtime!'' languages do not have, and will pretty likely never have, full 100% LPs for them. Finding Simplified Chinese LPs for almost any game would also be a nightmare, since most people who use that writing style rely on Bilibili and similar sites, where things get deleted all the time.[[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 18:48, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Hewer
#{{User|Altendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} [[File:Yoshijumpjoy.gif|Per Hewer.]]
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per everyone.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} [[File:Spear Guy.gif]]
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} <!--Same bit as the others with alt texts!!--> [[File:Poisonl.gif|It's kind of surprising how this hasn't been implemented nor standard in some way yet - there's no reason that it isn't! I'm all for increased accessibility and the use of accessibility features such as alt text. Per all.]]
#{{User|Technetium}} [[File:HM Proto Toad.gif|Per all.]]
#{{User|Pseudo}} [[File:ToadetteYakumanDS.gif|50px|Per all.]]
#{{User|Axii}} [[File:MKSC Luigi Blimp.png|85px|Per proposal.png]]


I apologize if this sounds dismissive or harsh, but the assertions that "this would take a lot of work to implement", "I think citations would clutter the page", and "readers can verify this on their own if they want" are not substantive and fail to address the core issues raised in the proposal. The ''Super Mario'' franchise is over forty years old, and the majority of the games lack in-game bestiaries or instruction booklets that catalog all of the subjects. So the majority of article subjects on our wiki were not introduced in a period of time where video game localization was carefully documented. Yet subjects spanning across decades of media have integrated names for a variety of languages and almost none of them are cited. For example, not a single non-English name for [[Octoomba]] is cited. Did these names come from the localized ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' scripts? Data-mined from ''Dr. Mario World''? The encyclopedia? Guidebooks? Made-up? I have no idea. Nearly every single enemy and character with a "Names in other languages" section has this same exact problem. [[Fire Piranha Plant]]. [[Cooligan]]. [[Buster Beetle]]. [[Bob-omb Buddy]]. [[Spinecone]]. [[Morty Mole]]. [[Gooble]]. [[Heave-Ho]]. Some of these subjects have ''some'' of their names sourced, but none of them have all of them, and this includes subjects that have appeared once in the franchise in a pre-Switch era. Where did these come from? Why is the information not provided? A reader 100% should not be burdened with going to ''another'' source like a Let's Play Channel to try verify this information, because that is what we are suppose to be doing - providing accurate information that can be trusted. Research, citation, and curation are difficult and time-consuming. But they are an inherent part of a credible encyclopedic project regardless of field or subject matter. If we should reject this proposal because we feel it would be too much of a burden on us, then why even have this wiki if we are unwilling to do the leg work necessary to make it trustworthy? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:58, August 19, 2024 (EDT)
====Support: only cite alt text for redirects and/or if there is no other source available====
:While not the worst argumentation I've heard, the only possible outcome of it for most pages would be to add <nowiki><ref name=in-game>In-game name</ref></nowiki> to sometimes more than 10 rows in the "Names in other languages" table. And (somewhat unfortunately) knowledge of using "name" in "ref" is considered very advanced stuff for newcomers to wiki editing. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 19:03, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
::I've been able to test a bit now how this proposal, specifically your (Nintendo101) and (if I understood him correctly, which I may or may not have) Waluigi Time's approach, and much less drastic than how I understood Technecium's concepts, and I have concluded that the proposal does make sense for character names specifically, e.g. [[Dancer]]. Though during the same testing, I found the proposal to be mostly unnecessary for the names of levels, minigames, and very likely microgames; the games usually have easily accessible level lists, and my guess is that it's pretty hard for someone to fake a made-up level name from thin air. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 19:51, August 21, 2024 (EDT)


Just to be clear, how would enforcing this work if the source is a translated game? Will it be how Zelda Wiki does it, including English names as well? For that I think it would be better to have a general note saying all names are taken from a game if no additional citations are used. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 09:49, August 20, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose: do not cite alt text at all====
:This. I feel like that would clear up some things so that the supporting side would have the machine-translation-deterring effect that they're wanting, without clogging the references section with repeated instances of "'Quote from a game.', (language) translation of (game), (release year)". [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 18:03, August 21, 2024 (EDT)


If a subject has appeared in many forms of media, for example, [[Mario]], how would the name be cited? - {{user|Apikachu68}} 10:42, August 20, 2024 (EDT)
====Comments (alt text proposal)====
:It's not like we need a comprehensive list of every time the name is used — one use in an official capacity is enough to establish a name as official. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 01:23, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
RE the "Toad Ornament": I think it's worth mentioning that calling some type of mushroom item a "Toad" is [[1-Up Mushroom#Hotel Mario|not unheard of]] in official works. But ok, it's less likely the typist of that Play Nintendo activity was thinking of Hotel Mario, and more likely they just confused Super Mushrooms with Toads due to their similar appearances. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:45, December 17, 2024 (EST)


@DandelionSprout @Scrooge200 The proposal says that screenshots/videos aren't required and a text citation is fine. Also, for Scrooge200's point specifically, the difficulty for most users to verify this information is exactly why we ''should'' be sourcing them on-site. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:07, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
[[File:SMBS Icicle Sharp X1.png|frame|left]]
:What would a text citation even need to be? Like, in ''Color Splash'' and ''The Origami King'', an area's name shows up as soon as you walk into it -- why would we need to source obvious in-game text like that? {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 20:20, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
@OmegaRuby: The proposal itself is about allowing alt text to be considered a valid source, not broadening usage of alt text as a whole. ''That being said'', on that note, I do wonder if we could perhaps do just that (likely as part of another proposal), mostly in the context of sprites--such as this example on the left from the [[Icicle]] article. A usual caption would absolutely not fit on this, but alt text could help provide something for a screenreader to read out. The main issue is that, to my knowledge, the "frame" parameter inherently means the alt text ''is'' the caption, which could cause issues if we need the actual, well, frame... {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:43, December 18, 2024 (EST)
::It depends on the game and where the text even is, but just pulling an example we can recall off the top of our head, the English name for [[Yakuman DS]] just puts the text from Toadsworth's trophy in Brawl (the only English name for the game, yes, really) into a quote. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 21:22, August 21, 2024 (EDT)
 
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 19:16, December 23, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Wednesday, December 25th, 05:31 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  2. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  3. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  8. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  14. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  15. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  16. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  17. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  18. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  19. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  20. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Below is an example of what your proposal must look like. If you are unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. When updating the bracketed variables with actual information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), Technetium (ended November 30, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page

This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more Super Mario games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for Mario, Bowser, and many other recurring subjects.

Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.

For example, let's say for Luigi in his appearance in Mario Sports Superstars, there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:

For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see here.

The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.
  2. Hewer (talk) I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.

Oppose

Comments

@Hewer I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)

Add an abbreviation template to type out full game titles

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on December 25 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

This proposal is about creating a template that it makes it easier to type out full game titles. Although The Legend of Zelda games generally have longer titles (and Zelda Wiki even has templates for some of their shorter titled games, like Hyrule Warriors, here), there have still been cases in which some game titles are uncomfortably long, such as Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! or Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, and while it may seem like not a big deal to some, it would be a small quality-of-life improvement if we could have a template where we input the abbreviation, and the output becomes the game title.

For example, {{a|M&LSS}} would result in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (complete with italics formatting). Meanwhile, {{a|M&LSS|l}} to link to the game, outputting Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, although depending on who creates the template, it could be vice versa, like it links by default and {{a|M&LSS|n}} would prevent a link.

Since Super Mario has several releases, it may get difficult maintaining with all the abbreviations, and there have been cases where two games have shared the same abbreviation. (e.g. SMS for both Mario Sunshine and Mario Strikers). In that case, either {{a|SMS|2002}} (with the year of release) or a custom abbreviation (e.g. {{a|SMShine}}) would be needed (personally I'd prefer the latter).

Consider we already have similar templates for Princess Peach and Princess Daisy (i.e. {{Peach}} and {{Daisy}}), and both of their full titles (with "Princess" included) is a lot shorter than the two game titles in the first paragraph.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) We don't see the harm in this, even if it would admittedly be fairly niche. The only real complaint we have is the lack of an additional parameter for changing the displayed text, so if we need to say something like "in the remake", we have to write that out the old-fashioned way.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) might make some link-heavy pages lighter!
  4. Salmancer (talk) Words cannot express the relief that my fingers would feel if they never have to type out "Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey" again.
  5. Tails777 (talk) Mario already took my example, but it still stands; the amount of times I've had to type out that title (or even the abbreviation for it) was incredibly annoying. Per all.
  6. Scrooge200 (talk) Yes, these titles can be a pain to write out in full. Per all.
  7. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  8. Sparks (talk) Per all.

Oppose

Comments

@Camwoodstock Such a parameter can always be added to the template. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:18, December 18, 2024 (EST)

Salmancer: Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games might be the other worst game title I've had to type out. Mario (Santa)'s map icon from Mario Kart Tour Mario-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 00:59, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Damn it, that was gonna be my example! Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate15:34, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Split image categories into separate ones for assets, screenshots, and artwork

This proposal will address the bloat some image categories have and make them easier to navigate.

Why is this useful? It makes adding to galleries or finding images to replace much easier. If you want to retake screenshots from a game, you can go to the screenshots category to find them. If you have sprite rips to replace, there's a category for that. The same goes for finding images from a game that aren't on the gallery already and being able to sort them more efficiently. This is also how we divide up character galleries already, such as Gallery:Mario (2010-2019).

Now, I can see a few edge cases, like when games have screenshots of themselves for credits images (i.e. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)). I would still classify these as assets, since they are ripped from the game. Artwork that is used in smaller forms in-game, such as in Super Mario Maker 2, would be classified as artwork if externally released or an asset if it was ripped from the game files. Edge cases shouldn't be too common and they're easy to work out: it's not too different from how we license images or put them in character or subject galleries.

I think the name "assets" would be more useful in shorthand than "sprites and models," in addition to covering textures, so I propose for the category to be called that, but I can change it if there's opposition. The global images category can still exist in the case there's scans, merchandise, video screenshots, or such images that cannot be further categorized.

Proposer: Scrooge200 (talk)
Deadline: January 5, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Scrooge200 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) I support this in principle, as long as there's room for discretion on what gets split and what gets left alone. A game with only ten or so pieces of artwork doesn't need a separate category for them, they can just stay in the main images category for that game. Otherwise, this seems useful, I just don't want users to go overboard by purely following the letter of this proposal.

Oppose

Comments

This is already being done (e.g. Category:Mario Kart Tour item icons). Super Mario RPG (talk) 11:02, December 23, 2024 (EST)

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Broaden the scope of the {{rewrite}} template and its variations

With the previous proposal having passed with being more specific as the most voted, I've come up with a proposal about the possibility to make the {{rewrite}}, {{rewrite-expand}}, and {{rewrite-remove}} templates more specific. As you can see, these templates are missing some smaller text. As such, I am just wondering if there is a possibility to have the smaller text added to the {{rewrite}}, {{rewrite-expand}}, and {{rewrite-remove}} templates.

First of all, the {{rewrite}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten.

However, once the proposal passes, the {{rewrite}} template will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article.

And another thing—the {{rewrite-expand}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information.

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-expand}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by filling in the missing details.

Lastly, the {{rewrite-remove}} currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): ???

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-remove}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s):{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by removing the unnecessary details.

That will be a perfect idea to make the {{rewrite}} template and its variations as more specific as the {{media missing}} and {{unreferenced}} templates. That way, we'll be able to add smaller text to the remaining notice templates in the future.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to December 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

  1. Altendo (talk) As far as I can tell, the proposal that was linked added parameters that allowed what was supposed to be referenced to be referenced. This one simply adds a subtitle to the bottom of each template. "Be more specific" does not mean saying general information and helpful links, but rather exactly what needs to be done; in terms of that, the existing templates not only all already have parameters, but filling them out is enforced. As Nightwicked Bowser said, "Be more specific - Similar to this proposal, what exactly needs references must be specified in the template when putting it in the article. A parameter for this will still need to be added." This only adds a subtitle and does not make this "more specific". As for the changes, this is actually harmful in some way, as the (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}}) tag will be added to the subtitle, rather than the main body, which could make it more confusing in my opinion. Feel free to update this and add in what "more specific" actually means, or just change this to "add subtitles" and change the location of (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}}) to the main body, but until then, my vote is staying here.
  2. Mario (talk) Best to keep things simple with these improvement templates.
  3. Technetium (talk) Per Mario.

Comments

Here's how I would fix some things:

First of all, the {{rewrite}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten.

However, once the proposal passes, the {{rewrite}} template will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten for the following reasons:
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article.

And another thing—the {{rewrite-expand}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
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It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information.

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-expand}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information for the following reasons:
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by filling in the missing details.

Lastly, the {{rewrite-remove}} currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
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It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): ???

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-remove}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed''' {{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reasons:{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s):
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by removing the unnecessary details.

This should fix some things, and I also recommend you change the title or at least context of this proposal. If so, then I might change my vote. Altendo 19:58, December 9, 2024 (EST)

I fixed this problem for you. How does it look? GuntherBayBeee.jpgGuntherBayBeeeGravity Rush Kat.png 09:40, December 10, 2024 (EST)

Decide what to do with Template:Move infobox

A while ago (November 4th, specifically), I created Template:Move infobox. After all, we had templates for essentially all the Browse tabs on the wiki sidebar, except for moves. There WERE templates about specific types of moves, such as Template:M&L attack infobox, but no general template in the same vein as items, characters, species, games, locations, etc.

I discussed it on the Discord briefly, nobody said no, and a bit of feedback later about how it should look and what it should have, I created it. It has since been applied to exactly four pages at the time of writing, half of which I was the one to apply it to. In hindsight, this could've used with a proposal instead of me just making it, so here's a belated one.

Should we keep Template:Move infobox around? If we do keep it, is it good as is, or does it need changes?

Proposer: EvieMaybe (talk)
Deadline: January 1st, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Keep Move infobox, as is

  1. Sparks (talk) I can see this template working really well for moves that aren't in every Mario game, like Spin. This has lots of potential!
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) We don't see why not--having a dedicated Moves infobox could come in handy, especially if we get any more Mario RPGs in the wake of the weird little renaissance period we've been getting with the back-to-back-to-back SMRPG remake, TTYD remake, and release of Brothership. Per proposal.
  4. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Technetium (talk) Per proposal.

Keep Move infobox, but with changes

Delete Move infobox

Move infobox Comments

Considering the nature of the attack infoboxes, wouldn't it be weird to have moves all in purple but a Mario & Luigi attack use yellow and green and a Paper Mario attack use white and green? Should there be variants of the Move infobox to match the color schemes of existing templates? If an article is covering multiple related moves, how will the infobox work? (ex. Handstand, Cap Throw, Roll, Slide Kick... there's more of these than I thought). What happens when a move is referenced in somewhat less "move-y" ways? Okay, that last one is kinda strange, but basically I mean "dashing" in Super Mario Run is just a fancy animation, Mario & Luigi Dream Team has an animation where Giant Luigi crouches (with posing and skidding clearly meant to be a platformer callback), to slide under an attack. Do these instances get incorporated into the infobox? Continuing the train of thought, what about sports games? Yoshi can Flutter Jump as his special action on Mario & Sonic games. Does that count as a method of input for a Flutter Jump? Salmancer (talk) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)

that's a lot of very interesting questions!
  • i went with purple to set it apart from the already taken light red (game), green and white (character), blue (level), pink (location), grey (item) and navy/grey (species) infoboxes. changing the color could be a good idea.
  • as for sorting which moves "count" or not, we have to decide these things for other types of subject too, after all, and they get infoboxes. it's a valid concern, though! eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 15:09, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"

There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?

Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.

This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.

Proposer: Mario (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Blank support

  1. Mario (talk) Per all.
  2. Ray Trace (talk) Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
  3. PopitTart (talk) (This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)
  4. Altendo (talk) (Look at the code for my reasoning)
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk)
  6. OmegaRuby (talk) While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really are just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at all. (Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)
  7. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
  8. TheDarkStar (talk) - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
  9. Ninja Squid (talk) Per proposal.
  10. Tails777 (talk) It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.

Blank Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
  2. Technetium (talk) I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone does provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type two words.
  5. Jdtendo (talk) Per all (is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)
  6. Axii (talk) Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
  7. Pseudo (talk) Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
  8. Hooded Pitohui (talk) I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides some insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
  9. Mister Wu (talk) Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
  10. DesaMatt (talk) Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.

Blank Comments

I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. Mario (Santa)'s map icon from Mario Kart Tour Mario-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)

I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
@Mario I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. Super Mario RPG (talk) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)

Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. Mario (Santa)'s map icon from Mario Kart Tour Mario-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)

Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. Technetium (talk) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring a written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. Salmancer (talk) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)

Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on December 25 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

The aims of this proposal is to repeal this one that passed earlier this year. I will reiterate my position here:

The planetary bodies in galaxies do not just "lack" publicly accessible names - they are straight up not supposed to have names. The Shogakukan guidebook for Mario Galaxy does not give planets name. The game does not give planets name. The instruction booklet does not give planets name. The only "source" that applies discrete names for planets are from the developers and we have no reason to think these were intended to be the planets. These galaxy articles are generally a bit outdated, and I think the mistake in the first place was suggesting that some of the planets have real names "except where otherwise noted." They largely do not. I think it would would healthier to recognize that they are just different sections of a greater whole, much like areas in courses for the earlier 3D games, and apply titles accordingly.

To elaborate on my perspective, I think using dev data to provide names for these planets is completely fine, and I understand the desire to do so. Citing the Prima Games guidebooks for potential names for these areas is fine. That is not what this proposal is about. Rather, integrating the templates themselves - be it for conjectural or dev data-derived names - underneath the individual headers for each planet, in my view, looks very poor, as you can see here for Yoshi Star Galaxy and Honeyhive Galaxy. They are detractingly eye-catching and break these articles without substantive benefit. I think having a nonintrusive note at the top or bottom of these articles - as was the case before the proposal I link to above passed - is perfectly sufficient and healthier for these articles.

I provide two options:

  1. Support: Do not put conjectural and dev-data name templates beneath the names of individual planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games: This is a full repeal of the proposal I link to above.
  2. Oppose: Change nothing

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support: Do not put templates underneath the name's of planets and areas

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. 1468z (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) The previous solution looked a lot nicer. I also agree with Nintendo101 that we should rethink how we approach planet names in general. They don't necessarily "need" names any more than specific portions of levels in other games do.
  4. Jdtendo (talk) I still don't agree with the "planets are not supposed to have names" argument, but I do agree that having templates beneath every section heading is excessive.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Waluigi time. The overall assumption that the planets have names unless otherwise stated feels like the consequence of a decision made very, very early on into the wiki, that's just kind of gone unquestioned or unnoticed until very recently. This won't stop that particular case of WikiJank™ completely, but it's a step in the right direction.
  6. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  7. EvieMaybe (talk) if all the names are unofficial, then we only need to say it once. if there's an official name, we can just say "all names are unofficial unless specified" and specify in the one planet that has a name (is there any planets with names even???). having the template on each individual section is both ugly and inefficient
  8. Mario (talk) Yeah, the setup before this was satisfactory. Per Evie, but I also agree with Waluigi Time that we probably don't need to require naming these parts of the level either.
  9. Ray Trace (talk) I always thought assigning these objects meant to be part of the environment conjectural templates has always struck me as odd and I don't know why only Super Mario Galaxy gets singled out out of all games. We don't name the rooms the Mario Party minigames take place in.
  10. Tails777 (talk) I was sincerely confused when I saw the templates put back on the various galaxy articles and questioned "Why? It was better beforehand." Per all.
  11. Hooded Pitohui (talk) In the longer-term, WT and Nintendo101 bring up points which ought to be considered. In the shorter term, this would be a beneficial first step to de-cluttering these sections for better readability.
  12. Ninja Squid (talk) Per all.
  13. Technetium (talk) Per Nintendo101, Waluigi Time, and Porple's comment below.
  14. MCD (talk) Per N101, WT and Porple below. I also agree our attitude on what counts as "conjectural" when it comes to naming planets needs a rethink, i.e. it's not conjecture to call the planet the player starts on the "starting planet" because that's just a factual description. (Also, why does Starting Planet just redirect to a random galaxy? lol)

Oppose: Keep the templates

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) I'm opposing this proposal as currently slated to be implemented — as in, just removing Template:Conjecture and Template:Dev data from these sections and leaving it at that. These need to be marked, and I don't feel that an "unless otherwise noted" disclaimer is an elegant way to do that. However. There is a way of accomplishing this that I would be amenable to: replacing those templates with Template:Conjectural or a new dev data equivalent to it. This is the same way our glitch pages do it, for exactly the same reason you want to get rid of these templates on the galaxy pages. I think it makes perfect sense to use this convention here as well to solve this problem.

Comments on the planet template proposal

I agree that we don't need the repeated templates, and the whole naming situation of the planets is a bit odd. Rather than giving the planets capitalized "names" (e.g. "Starting Planet") and noting them as conjectural, they should just be described in sentence case, at which point it should be somewhat obvious that it's a description and not a "name". For example, section heading "Starting planet" and text "The starting planet has..." You could do a single {{conjecture|subsections=yes}} under the "Planets" heading if you really wanted to, but I think if we removed all the inappropriate capitalization then even that wouldn't be necessary. --Steve (talk) Get Firefox 20:11, December 19, 2024 (EST)

Set Vector-2010 to the default wiki skin

This proposal is about setting the 2010 Vector as the default wiki skin (screenshot here) for desktop users, with the focus being on people who are new to wikis in particular, while obviously keeping the existing MonoBook skin as an option. What made me think to create this proposal is when I made a Talk:Main Page proposal about the to-do list tasks and how they are more accessible than clicking the "Wiki maintenance" on the sidebar, I had to uncomfortably squint to find "Wiki maintenance" on the wiki sidebar. But Vector-2010 has the sidebar links slightly larger and a bit more spaced out. With the existing interface, there could be some who may struggle to find options listed on the sidebar.

While we're clearly different from Wikipedia (that's why I'm not Vector-2022, since it'd be too much of a departure and likely uncomfortable for several), I do want to refer to this page, which summarizes why Wikipedia transitioned to it. Though it is vague, they cite accessibility as the reason, which I think this wiki has been taking steps toward doing.

I'll cite my reasons for preferring Vector and applying this to possible people who are visiting a wiki for the first time. The text is larger, which is especially important for larger screen monitors, some of the lesser used tabs are collapsible on the sidebar, summarizing the most commonly used options, and the user links at the top right are also more noticeable and less close to the body of the article where the content is read.

Though it could take time getting used to the Edit button being on the right (not to mention the search button), the button is at least larger, making it more usable on even lower quality screen monitors, and I like how it's separate from the Page and discussion options, meaning that options that involve viewing articles are on the left while options that involve editing or changing the page in some form are on the right.

If this proposal passes and others don't like the change, they can always return to the MonoBook option in their preferences.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.

Oppose

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Admittedly, this vote is largely a matter of preference--we just don't like Vector that much--but we can't think of any real reason to switch to Vector 2010 as the default over the current Monobook beyond the mentioned text spacing; while that is a nice boon, we personally find the weird gradient buttons for the various tabs up top a little grating looking, and we're a fan of the more compact design that Monobook provides--though, this is likely a byproduct of our personal preference for more neatly packed web design. And uh, the less said about the other two options (Vector 2022, and. Timeless. Which is the most dated theme possible, namely to mid-2010s mobile web design.), the better. If you like Vector 2010, that's great, and we're fine with that! Heck, if anyone likes Vector 2022 or Timeless, that's cool too, and more power to them! Variety is the spice of life, after all. But switching it to the default is something that should not be taken lightly, and the reasons for a switch in this proposal feel a little too loosey-goosey for us, we're sorry.
  2. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per Camwoodstock.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) I like how MonoBook looks a little more than Vector. It is what I am comfortable with. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  4. Drago (talk) Per Nintendo101. I actually prefer the smaller text of Monobook since you can see more of the page at once. I also want to point out that although logged-in users like us can change the skin in preferences, we'd still be forcing the change on logged-out users.
  5. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Drago.
  6. Technetium (talk) Per Nintendo101 and Drago. I just don't see any reason to make this change.
  7. Altendo (talk) I'm saying this as a Vector-2010 skin user, and I'll say that people have their preferences. I live Vector-2010 because that is how Wikipedia at least used to look before they switched to Vector (2022); On Wikipedia, Vector was renamed to Vector legacy (2010), while Vector 2022 is named Vector (2022). Although I do prefer Vector-2010, I know a lot of people that prefer Monobook, and even if not, this can be changed in the preferences. No need to change the default skin. I get that IPs can't change their appearance, but aside from that, users can, and what they see doesn't have to be default on the wiki. Everyone can change what they specifically see.

Comments

@Camwoodstock That is true that it's a major change. It's based mainly upon impression from newcomers from them seeing a more prominent edit tab, slightly larger text size, and other minor details like tab names that are easier to read (including a collapsible feature for the lesser used tab). The skin change was based on old Wikipedia research at the time (like how WikiLove was a result of their research). I have no strong feelings whether this passes or not. Although it's vague, since there's no way to tell the statistics (and the wiki's already successful at the moment), I still have a feeling it could help some, but to each their own. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:32, December 18, 2024 (EST)

We feel like if anybody would be capable of providing any statistics on skin usage, it'd be Porple, but even then, we don't actually know if that's one of the things he tracks, and it feels a little silly to pester him over this of all things... ;p ~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:55, December 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm okay with opposition, but in case of misunderstanding, this proposal isn't about personal preferences so much as what I believe to be a more ergonomic interface to a wider audience. I know we're not Wikipedia, but there's also the consideration that they've used the Vector skin longer than they had for MonoBook. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:45, December 19, 2024 (EST)

If it's what "you believe", then it ultimately (and probably unavoidably) is about personal preferences. Anyway, another consideration is the fact that people often prefer what they're used to. I feel like how long this wiki has used its skin is more relevant than how long Wikipedia has. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:39, December 19, 2024 (EST)
@Hewer I suppose I'm overthinking the ergonomic interface. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:19, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Miscellaneous

Use official alt text as a source

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on December 24 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

What I refer to here as "alt text" is text that is either:

  • shown in place of a file, such as an image, when the file doesn't load;
  • shown as a small note when you hover your mouse on an image on PC. See for yourself with this pic: This is a Mario Star.

To quote the Wiki article I linked above, alt text "is used to increase accessibility and user friendliness, including for blind internet users who rely on special software for web browsing."

Nintendo's web content makes hefty use of this feature, particularly in activities on the Play Nintendo site, where it is employed for decorative stickers users can select and manipulate. Alt text is certainly a unique means to convey information that, currently, is not treated in any the entries laid out in the wiki's "acceptable sources for naming", including entry 2 concerning web material, and hasn't been discussed to my knowledge. Since alt text can bear information of its own, as explained below, it might be time we decided if this quaint thing should be supported in the policy.

The following aspects should be kept in mind as a decision is made on this topic:

  • tempting as it may be, alt text cannot be construed as internal material in the way filenames are. A filename, whether pertaining to a file in a video game or a file on a web page, serves a utilitarian purpose that is, above all, an organizational tool meant to aid the developers of said game or website. Contrarily, the very purpose of alt text is to be seen by the end user (that is, the regular Joe or Jane the product is being shown to) under special circumstances.
  • on the other hand, alt text may display some level of unprofessionality or unfamiliarity with the source material on the part of its author--that is to say, it can lend to some pretty weird information about a given subject. The few examples I've come across are an ornament resembling a mushroom item being referred to as a "Toad ornament" (play.nintendo.com via archive.org), Koopa Paratroopa being called a "Koopa Flying Trooper" (play.nintendo.com via archive.org), and Meowser being called "Cat Bowser" (play.nintendo.com). I'd like to stress that this is far from the norm, as evident in those links--Mario is called "Mario", Goomba is "Goomba" etc., heck, some lesser known characters like Lottie, Wardell, and Niko from Animal Crossing are correctly identified in that Ornament Creator activity--, but I believe it's fair of me to show you a comprehensive image of the situation.

Most importantly, beyond the typical "they offer unique names and spellings" claptrap, I've noticed that citing such material is genuinely practical in select situations. The one recent example that comes to mind is that the alt text of some Play Nintendo activities helped me delineate a few otherwise non-descript stars shown at Gallery:Super Star. The Super Star item, the one used in games to make player characters invincible, has in the past shared 2D graphics with the Power Star collectable McGuffins from 3D titles, so when identifying a given Star graphicMedia:MH Oct 4.svg with zero context to its nature, all bets are off; rather than resort to speculation and potentially erroneously place a non-descript star graphic in the Super Star's gallery (as previously done), one can look up the graphic's alt text on Nintendo's website and use that as a crutch, if there's absolutely nothing else.

I propose three options for handling material presented in this manner.

  1. Cite alt text the same way media, including other web content, is typically cited. This means that if a Goomba's alt text is "Toothy Mushroom" in a context where most or every other element from the Mario series is given their usual names, then "Toothy Mushroom" is treated as a valid alternate name for the Goomba, shown on the Goomba article, and referenced from the aforementioned alt text. As argued above, alt text is meant to be seen by the end user, placing it somewhere above level 6 (concerning internal game filenames) of the current source priority policy under this option.
    1. Some exceptions can be made in this scenario. If, for instance, wiki users deem that a discrete piece of web content handles alt text in an overwhelmingly unprofessional manner, they may choose not to cite it. As a concrete example, the 2024 Calendar Creator activity at Play Nintendo reuses the exact same alt text from its 2023 iteration for its decorative stickers, even though said stickers changed. According to that activity, Cheep Cheeps are also called "Monty Moles" and Pokeys are also called "Chain Chomps". This obviously represents some level of carelessness that shouldn't be reflected on the wiki even if the content is technically official. However, it's also the exception, not the rule.
  2. Cite alt text only for redirects and/or when no other source is available for a given thing. This means that "Koopa Flying Trooper" and "Cat Bowser" will be removed from the Koopa Paratroopa and Meowser pages respectively, but will remain as redirects to these pages. The explanations at Gallery:Super Star#Notes and Gallery:Miscellaneous mushrooms#Notes will remain as well, because alt text is currently the only means to identify certain graphics on those pages as being a particular type of star or mushroom.
  3. Do not cite alt text in any of the ways described above.

Note: The articles concerning the Play Nintendo activities mentioned above (Cat Transformation Center, Paper Mario: The Origami King Collage Maker etc.) will continue to list the alt text of each graphic as captions regardless of the proposal's outcome. This provides quick cross-referencing to someone who really wants to know how a decoration is called in those activities.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: December 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support: cite alt text for everything, including unique names

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal!
  2. Hewer (talk) I'd think alt text would be covered under "web content" in the naming policy. There's no reason for it not to be, given that it's official text, and is more intended to be seen by the end user than image filenames, which we already agreed are fine. If something's obviously a mistake, we can say that without discrediting the whole source, like we already do with other sources (e.g. the Cleft article acknowledging the "Moon Cleft" name from Super Paper Mario despite deeming it "mistaken").
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) The future is now, old man! We're in an era of Bluesky and screen reader compatibility! Okay, jokes aside, we're a little surprised that alt text hasn't been accounted for already, given it has been around the internet for a very, very long time. Still, better late than never, we suppose. Per proposal, and Hewer especially!
  4. EvieMaybe (talk) per Hewer
  5. Altendo (talk) Per all.
  6. Nintendo101 (talk) Per Hewer.
  7. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per everyone.
  8. FanOfYoshi (talk) Spear Guy.gif
  9. OmegaRuby (talk) It's kind of surprising how this hasn't been implemented nor standard in some way yet - there's no reason that it isn't! I'm all for increased accessibility and the use of accessibility features such as alt text. Per all.
  10. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  11. Pseudo (talk) Per all.
  12. Axii (talk) Per proposal.png

Support: only cite alt text for redirects and/or if there is no other source available

Oppose: do not cite alt text at all

Comments (alt text proposal)

RE the "Toad Ornament": I think it's worth mentioning that calling some type of mushroom item a "Toad" is not unheard of in official works. But ok, it's less likely the typist of that Play Nintendo activity was thinking of Hotel Mario, and more likely they just confused Super Mushrooms with Toads due to their similar appearances. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:45, December 17, 2024 (EST)

Tsurara

@OmegaRuby: The proposal itself is about allowing alt text to be considered a valid source, not broadening usage of alt text as a whole. That being said, on that note, I do wonder if we could perhaps do just that (likely as part of another proposal), mostly in the context of sprites--such as this example on the left from the Icicle article. A usual caption would absolutely not fit on this, but alt text could help provide something for a screenreader to read out. The main issue is that, to my knowledge, the "frame" parameter inherently means the alt text is the caption, which could cause issues if we need the actual, well, frame... ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:43, December 18, 2024 (EST)

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