MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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<center>http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/9/9/17/f_propcopym_9045f2d.png</center>
==Writing guidelines==
<br clear="all">
===Include missions (and equivalencies) to subjects we put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style===
{| align="center" style="width: 85%; background-color: #f1f1de; border: 2px solid #996; padding: 5px; color:black"
The passing of this proposal would include the in-game [[mission]]s and equivalencies (i.e. episodes from ''Super Mario Sunshine'', objectives from ''Super Mario Odyssey'', etc.) to the subjects we put quotation marks around in our [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style#Italicizing titles|Manual of Style]].
|'''Proposals''' can be new features (such as an extension), removal of a previously added feature that has tired out, or new policies that must be approved via [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] before any action(s) are done.
 
*Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., "I like this idea!"
In reference material aimed at describing and chronicling creative works, putting quotation marks around certain types of subjects has become a [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_works_cited_other_common_sources.html well-established practice]. This is acknowledged in our Manual of Style, in which it states that video games, TV series, and albums should be italicized, whereas individual music titles, named book chapters, and TV episodes should be within quotation marks. I am personally not a fan of adhering to traditions or standards just for the sake of it, but there are strong utilitarian reasons why this has become commonplace. Last year, I relayed what these were in a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#Do not surround song titles with quotes|proposal]] that aimed to remove quotation marks from song titles, stating:
*"Vote" periods last for one week.
<blockquote>The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a ''greater whole'' (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in ''The Color of Water''. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of ''Resident Alien''. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the Super Mario franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "[[Gusty Garden Galaxy (theme)|Gusty Garden Galaxy]]" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and [[Gusty Garden Galaxy]] is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.
*All past proposals are [[/Archive|archived]].
</blockquote>
|}
I hope this adequately explains why I think this is a good practice for us as editors, and how this benefits visitors to our site.
A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed with the signature code <nowiki>~~~(~)</nowiki>.
 
I would like us to explicitly include [[mission]]s as subjects we should put quotation marks around. This is something I do already on the wiki because I have always perceived them as scenarios within a creative work, much like a TV episode or named chapter in a novel. They often even have unique narrative elements. Consequently, presenting them between quotation marks comes with the same benefit to readers. Proper levels (which I conceptualize as locations within the creative works we cover, not scenarios) have been given a diversity of different names through the franchise's history and many of them sound like they could be referring to scenarios. For folks browsing the wiki or reading an article covering a recurring subject, wouldn't it be nice to have some passive indication that [[Here Come the Hoppos]] is a level, whereas "[[Footrace with Koopa the Quick]]" is a scenario ''within'' a level? I think that'd provide helpful clarity.
 
As an example of what this would look like in practice, I recommend the ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'' article, where I embraced this fully. I don't include quotation marks around missions in the level table because I feel that looks a little busy and they aren't as helpful there, but I always include them when I mention a mission within a sentence, just like I do with chapters and song titles. The only reason why I am making this proposal is because I have seen the quotation marks removed from mission names on other articles I have worked on, and I would rather we keep them. I think it is a good idea.
 
For clarification, <u>this proposal does not impact the names of actual ''levels''</u>, which I consider to be locations within the creative works we cover, regardless of how silly their names are in English. It is not commonplace to put quotation marks around the names of locations in creative works, and it would also defeat the intent behind this proposal. What would be the point of including quotation marks around "Big Bob-omb on the Summit" if you are also including them around "Bob-omb Battlefield?" That would just be redundant and clarify nothing to our readers.
 
I offer two options:
 
#'''Add missions (and equivalencies like episodes and objectives) to list of subjects we should put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style.'''
#'''Don't do that.'''
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 21th, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support: I like this idea! Let's include missions on the Manual of Style.====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Our thought process for this is, admittedly, a tad silly, but hear us out here; if we give episodes of TV shows, like, say, "[[Mama Luigi]]", quotation marks in places like the [[Super Mario World (television series)#Episodes|list of episodes]], to even the infobox of its own article, we can see ''a'' reason to go for this. While we don't feel as strong about this as others, we do feel like it at least makes SOME sense to us to apply this rationale to what is, effectively, the gameplay analogue to an "episode".
 
====Oppose: I think this is a bad idea. Let's not do that.====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I maintain my stance from the aforementioned proposal — these quotation marks are misrepresentative of these subjects' official names, and the insistent use of them makes it impossible to tell the [["Deep, Deep Vibes"|errant times they are official]] from the times in which they are not. This is prioritizing a manual of style over the truth, which is unacceptable no matter how minor.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Ahemtoday, and I also think the argument for using the quotation marks for missions in particular is especially weak because I don't think you can argue it's a common practice elsewhere like you can with music. It doesn't help to clarify anything for the reader if they don't already know it's a standard.
#{{User|Salmancer}} Putting quotes exclusively around mission names would be saying that a mission has more narrative content than a level, as both are equally discrete segments of video games. (Start at one point, goal at other point, stuff in between, game enters a state with lessened consequences in-between, be that a transition to the next level/mission or a World Map/hubworld.) And sure, missions have more narrative content on average than levels. But that's an ''average'' and is far from absolute, mostly being decided by "are there NPCs in this mission/level who are relevant to the story"? Levels can have those, like [[Bowser Jr. Showdown]], and missions can lack those, like with [[Smart Bombing]]. It would be best for Super Mario Wiki to not pass judgement.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} ignoring the fact that the line between what counts as a "mission" and what doesn't by the given definition is murky (do bogstandard [[Power Moon]] names count, if ''SM64'' stars do? what about ''Brothership'' [[List of Mario & Luigi: Brothership side quests|side quests]]? ''TTYD'' [[Trouble Center|troubles]]? achievements?), i think the way this proposal tries to apply a standard used for episodes in a show and songs in an album to only a particular stripe of objectives within a videogame is drawing a false equivalence. deciding that levels are strictly separate "locations" while missions are "scenarios" also feels like an improper conflation of game-mechanical and narrative terminology (what about levels that share locations with others, like <i>Master of Disguise</i>'s [[Whose Show Is This Anyway?!!|first]] and [[The Purple Wind Stinks Up the Ship!|second]] levels?). this feels like a misapplied idea.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all: it's unneeded, it does not make much sense to put mission names in quotation marks but not level names, it's not always clear what qualifies as a mission or not, and this would not be helpful to most readers because they would not be aware of this convention.
 
====Comments on this quotation mark/mission proposal====
{{@|Ahemtoday}} I believe your proposal did not pass because the arguments were not persuasive. There are very few expectations for users and visitors of this site other than that they have baseline writing and reading comprehension skills. I am not privy to anyone, certainly not a systemic amount of people, who have seen quotation marks ''around'' the name of a subject and assume it is literally part ''of'' the name. I do not think it is a reasonable argument. I do not even know of any music tracks in the franchise with quotation marks around them as part of their name outside of the four items from ''Paper Mario: The Origami King'' - in a nearly forty year-old franchise with hundreds of music tracks. The inclusion of quotation marks for these four subjects is clearly the exception, not the rule, and a useful writing convention should not be thrown out just for them. It takes very little effort to just share in the body paragraphs of those four articles that the quotation marks are part of their names (if one even thinks it is necessary, which I am still unconvinced is). We are not misinforming readers here.


<h2 style="color:black">How To</h2>
Additionally, bringing up that music track is a non sequitur because this proposal does not impact music: it impacts missions. If you feel like quotation marks around any subject, regardless of medium (i.e. televised episodes, song titles, titled novel chapters, and potentially missions, if this proposal were to be successful) is inherently "lying," as you assert in your previous proposal, it is dependent on the idea that your average reader sees quotation marks and assume they are part of the title unless otherwise specified, which you have not unsubstantiated. I don't think that happens. That is like seeing the title ''Super Mario Galaxy'' on the wiki and feeling misinformed because every letter on the [[:File:SMG Title Screen.png|title screen]] is capitalized. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 03:36, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
:The point is that the speech marks sometimes are part of the name and putting them around all names regardless of that removes that distinction. It wouldn't be immediately obvious to a reader that they are part of the title of [["Deep, Deep Vibes"]] but are not part of the title of "[[Happy & Sappy]]". Similar cases are "[[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music#Super Mario Bros.|"Hurry Up!" Ground BGM]]" and "[[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music#Super Mario 64|"It's-a Me, Mario!"]]", where I think the double quotation marks look bad. A solution I'd be fine with is to only use the quotation marks in running text and not tables, which seems to already be done on many [[List of albums|album pages]] (though I'm still opposed to using quotation marks at all for mission names since I don't think it's an established standard). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:48, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
::Why is it more immediately important to relay that quotation marks are part of a subject's title over the fact that it is a song as opposed to something else? — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 04:57, January 8, 2025 (EST)
##Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
:::Because the goal of saying the title is simply to say the title, not to also clarify immediately what kind of thing it is. That's what context is for, not titles. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
##Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
::::Then why do we italicize game titles? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:39, January 8, 2025 (EST)
##Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
:::::Because it's an established standard (and one Nintendo sometimes adheres to), unlike putting quotes around mission names. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:26, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
::::::Very few novels put quotation marks around their own chapter titles. Independent reference material on those novels always do. Do you think we would not italicize video game titles if Nintendo themselves did not? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:02, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#At any time a vote may be rejected if at least '''three''' active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
:::::::What reference material puts quotation marks around video game mission titles that were not present in the game? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:11, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#"<nowiki>#&nbsp;</nowiki>" should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
::::::::I would have personally appreciated it if you had engaged with the question I asked, or at least engage with whether you think it is accurate to say an episode in ''Super Mario Sunshine'' is essentially one of its "chapters." That was the point I was trying to make.
#At the deadline, the validity of each vote and the discussion is reviewed by the community.
::::::::I am hardly familiar with any independent sources that discuss missions at all, let along put quotation marks around their names when they show up in a sentence, and I hope it is apparent from [[Super Mario Galaxy#Notes and references|the articles I contribute to the most]] that I do exercise that diligence. (There may be sources that chronicle RPG titles like ''Final Fantasy'' where certain scenarios or chapters in the games have quotation marks around them, iirc, but platformers are typically not discussed with the same rigor because most of them have weaker narrative elements.) When compared to literature, film, and music, video games are a younger medium that is still not chronicled or discussed with the same care in academic or archival projects, which is where precedents for this type of thing would be set. They are still viewed as products first and creative works second in many circles. Consequently, for all intents and purposes, the people who want granular information on the ''Super Mario'' series are likely to come to the Super Mario Wiki before anywhere else, and I do not see that changing in the near or distant future. We would very much be the ones establishing this precedent. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "[[Wikipedia:Quorum|NO QUORUM]]"
:::::::::I think the reason we italicise game titles is because of it being a standard in other sources, which putting quotes around mission names is not, regardless of the reason for that. I don't see why it should be our job to set this precedent. Following established practice is very different to inventing it. And I don't agree that missions are equivalent to chapters because I feel like missions in Mario games are often more equivalent to levels in other Mario games, which I certainly do not want us to be putting quotes around. Like Salmancer argued in their vote, the idea that missions have more narrative content than levels is not always accurate (and I don't see why narrative content should be a decider anyway in a franchise that is not primarily focused on narrative). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#All proposals are archived. The original proposer must '''''take action''''' accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
::::::::::I do not want to set it because it is "our job." I want to set it because I think it is a beneficial tool. It is also not some sort of value judgement like Salmancer suggested. It is acknowledging that the Bob-omb Battlefield and "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" are not equivalencies within the game they occur in: the former is a level, whereas the latter is a scenario within the level. They are not the same thing. Bowser Jr. Showdown, regardless of how it was localized in English, is the name of a unique level. A location. It is within a greater region (a world), but that is exactly like World 1-1 or Vanilla Secret 2. When you access "Footrace with Koopa the Quick," you are accessing the same level as "Big Bob-omb on the Summit," so it is not the equivalency to something like Bowser Jr. Showdown and is exactly why I made the disclaimer I did in the proposal about level names. The lack of quotation marks does not mean Bowser Jr. Showdown is devoid of any narrative context, just that it is a level only. If there were different discrete scenarios like missions within Bowser Jr. Showdown that had names, that would be another matter. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:14, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::I don't see how it being a "scenario" (which is already a pretty loose distinction imo) should mean it gets quotation marks if that isn't a standard. In the same way levels and missions aren't equivalent subjects, nor are levels and worlds, or levels and items, or levels and characters. Deciding that this particular distinction can't just be gleaned from context like all those others can and instead needs us to invent an extra indicator feels arbitrary to me. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:27, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:It is not that readers, necessarily, will '''believe''' that the quotation marks are actually present around things they are not. It is that, if the reader had any desire to see if quotation marks surrounded something, they could not get this information from us except from marginal implicities that are basically by accident. By contrast, whether or not a name is a location or a mission is extremely easy information to obtain on this wiki without quotation marks — readers can simply click on the link and find out at the very top of that subject's article what it is. I've never spoken to a person who's run into the issue of confusing episode and level names, but even if they ''weren't'' equally unsubstantiated, why should we obfuscate information to cater to them when they are five seconds away from solving their problem? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 21:55, January 8, 2025 (EST)
{{@|Hewer}} I think you have misunderstood the proposal. I did not argue this was common practice or had precedent. My argument is that quotation marks often convey the type of subject and that it is part of a greater whole. Missions are narrative scenarios within a larger creative work, just like episodes in a television show, scenes in a film (which also get placed within quotation marks when titled), and named book chapters. I think that is intuitive. They are ontologically all the same thing in different media and — like them — they inherit the same benefits from quotation marks. They passively relay the same info: that this is a scenario within a creative work as opposed to, say, a location within a creative work. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 04:54, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:I understand you weren't arguing that this had precedent, my point is that that was an argument for the opposition in the music proposal that I don't think can be applied here, thus I think the case for quotes around missions is weaker than that for quotes around music. Quotation marks only help to indicate what type of subject it is if the reader is already aware that that is what they are meant to indicate, which they aren't as likely to be for mission titles due to it not being a common practice (and again, it doesn't match how the games themselves do it, so I think it would probably add more confusion, not reduce it). The quotation marks around "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" don't indicate it being a mission any more than it being a song. I also personally don't think the distinction between levels and missions, especially in Mario games, is that significant. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::The intent is to clarify that "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" is a scenario in a place, whereas Bob-omb Battlefield is the place. I have found this very helpful in the articles I have contributed to. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)


The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after school, weekend nights).
I argue "death of the author". People will read this as "we're putting quotation marks around missions and not levels because missions are more like television episodes than levels are". This will happen because levels in 2D ''Super Mario'' games and missions in 3D ''Super Mario'' games are more or less equivalent; the concept of "place" vs "event in place" is wibbly-wobbly in video game land unless the option of replaying them with the same save file is cut off, and this proposal is putting one set of "events in places" over the other. I read the entire proposal and came to that exact conclusion. And to the theoretical confusion of "3D platformer level" to "mission", what of "2D platformer world" to "level"? What makes declaring Footrace with Koopa the Quick to be a part of Bob-omb Battlefield but not of the same type as Bob-omb Battlefield any more important than declaring Bowser Jr. Showdown is part of [[Meringue Clouds]] but not of the same type as Meringue Clouds? This has to be done for both kinds of relationships. This, of course, is relevant because Worlds in New Super Mario Bros. games started to include interactive elements that work based on how they do in the levels, and I think this proposal is targeted at prose for such interactive elements in their articles, like explaining where and when things appear. Sure, this makes something like [[Cosmic block]]'s first sentence in it's ''Super Mario Galaxy'' section marginally clearer if someone has already read the Manual of Style, but why shouldn't [[Spine Coaster]]s get this treatment when they appear in [[Thrilling Spine Coaster]] and in [[Rock-Candy Mines]]? [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 23:19, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:I don't think "death of the author" applies here because the distinction of mission vs. level is informed by the game itself, not by what the creators of the game say it should be.
:The reason why Bob-omb Battlefield isn't the equivalent of a world is because the first floor in ''Super Mario 64'' is the world, and this is part of how the game is physically organized. You only gain access to another floor if you clear the first Bowser course of the first floor. The only games with missions that don't have worlds for their levels are ''Super Mario Sunshine'' and ''Super Mario Odyssey''. The other three do: ''Super Mario 64'' has there levels broken up into floors; ''Super Mario Galaxy'' has [[dome]]s; and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' has what are literally called [[World#Super Mario Galaxy 2|World]]s. So if the the equivalency of the [[Terrace (Super Mario Galaxy)|Terrace]] in ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' is [[Acorn Plains]], and the equivalency of [[Good Egg Galaxy]] is [[Acorn Plains Way]], than what is the equivalency of "[[A Snack of Cosmic Proportions]]?" The answer is there is none, because Acorn Plains Way doesn't have any episodes. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:07, January 9, 2025 (EST)


So for example, if a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is indeed a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.
{{@|EvieMaybe}}, I restricted this proposal to what I am familiar with, which are the 3D ''Super Mario'' platformers. I do not have the knowledge or expertise to extend this proposal to ''Wario: Master of Disguise'' or ''Mario & Luigi: Brothership''. I am only interested in ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', ''Super Mario Galaxy'', ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'', and ''Super Mario Odyssey''. I do not offhand think isolated Power Moons should be impacted by this proposal. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:13, January 9, 2025 (EST)


__TOC__
==New features==
===Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page===
This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more ''Super Mario'' games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for [[Mario]], [[Bowser]], and many other recurring subjects.


<center><span style="font-size:200%">CURRENTLY: '''{{LOCALTIME}}, {{LOCALDAY}} {{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALYEAR}} (EDT)'''</span></center>
Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.


== New Features ==
For example, let's say for [[Luigi]] in his appearance in ''[[Mario Sports Superstars]]'', there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:


=== Conker and Banjo ===
:''For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see [[List of Luigi profiles and statistics#Mario Sports Superstars|here]].''


At first clance, this would seem stupid, but hear me out. Considering we feture things [[Donkey Kong (series)|Not actually part of the Mario series]] (in the sence that no Mario characters aside from DK characters appear) I was thinking we should have [[Banjo]] and [[Conker]] games as well, as they are spinoffs of the DK series, just like DK is a spinoff of Mario. Thoughts?
The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.


'''Proposer:''' [[User:HyperToad|HyperToad]] <br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' January 17, 2008, 17:00
'''Deadline''': <s>January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.
====Oppose====
#{{User|Mario}} Doesn't seem necessary. Just a thought: should we also link to parts of character galleries for every game section?


#[[User:HyperToad|HyperToad]] See comments above.
====Comments====
#Per HyperToad [[User:Fly Guy 2|FG2]]
{{@|Hewer}} I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)


====Oppose====
If I understood this correctly, would this proposal add a disclaimer to every sigle game in a character's History section if the character has a corresponding profile and/or statistics section for that game? That's basically 20+ disclaimers on almost every game in Luigi's History page, is that correct? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 09:41, January 1, 2025 (EST)
:I don't really see the problem if it's helpful, relevant links that aren't very intrusive anyway. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:08, January 2, 2025 (EST)


#[[User:Glitchman|Glitchman]] I don't really think Conker and Banjo have anything to do with the Marioverse, and these games were just cheap copies of the DK series.  I don't think these should be added to the Wiki.
@Mario: I don't think the gallery comparison works. Galleries aren't split up into subsections for individual games in the same way as profiles and statistics pages, so it can't really be done the same way. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:16, January 3, 2025 (EST)
#[[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]] - They're too far removed.
#{{User:InfectedShroom/sig}} See my comment below.
#{{User:Ghost_Jam/sig}} - We've been over this many times before. Banjo and Conker have nothing to do with the Marioverse besides a far removed role.
#{{User:Cobold/sig}} - For the nth time, they are not related enough.
#{{User:Time Q/sig}} Per previous proposal. And as an aside, why the heck would it matter that there is an "inappropriate" game? I don't remember the guidelines saying that everything has to be appropriate for children. In fact, that would go against one of the major principles of an encyclopedia.
#http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif '''[[User:Paper Jorge|Paper Jorge! I give paper cuts so stand back!]]''' http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif A long time ago, before lots of users joined, Banjo and Conker articles were allowed. Seriously. There was a Tooty article, a Gruntilda one and others. However we soon stopped making them, and after talking about it cancelled everything and destroyed everything Banjo and Conker. So in the end I say: Not related to the Mario series enough. They were just guest appearances. Let's not make articles on the Itadaki Street series, or Final Fantasy or Sonic.


====Comments====
==Removals==
Actually, we had '''two''' proposal on this matter and infact, we used to have article on Banjo and Conker subject. The overal concensus was that Banjo and Conker only had very marginal link to the Marioverse (Not my opinion, thought) and that Conker was too scary for little kids. Just so you know.
===Delete Alternative Proto Piranha Images===
--[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]] 12:36, 10 January 2008 (EST)
This concerns [[:File:SMS Fire Gatekeeper.png|these two]] [[:File:SMS Green-Yellow Gatekeeper.png|image files]], which are as of present unused.
::In all fairness, same for [[Donkey Kong]]. [[User:HyperToad|HyperToad]] Also, uh, what's the big deal about Conker, if we are worried about that, let's get rid of [[Bob Hoskins]]. :)
::: Well, Mario made a cameo in DKC2 and the [[Donkey Kong Land]] instruction manual imply that [[Big Ape City]] may be where the original Donkey Kong took place. That, and a lot of DKC characters have been appearing in the sport games. About the Bob Hoskins stuff, I brought that up on the proposal, but no one listened.
--[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]] 12:49, 10 January 2008 (EST)
::::I listened, we ''should'' censor that page. Anyway, since ''Donkey Kong'' is a spin-off of ''Mario'' that'd make Banjo and Conker spin-spin-offs, which is a degree too removed from Mario. You could argue that ''Mario'' comes from [[Donkey Kong (game)| Donkey Kong (the game)]] and is therefore the spin-off, but in the older proposals it was agreed that the game was more of a '''''Mario''''' game than a ''Donkey Kong'' game (except for its title). The opinion that ''Donkey Kong'' is the spin off is further supported by the fact that [[Donkey Kong Country]] (as the first of the bonefied ''Donkey Kong'' franchise) didn't show up until '''way''' after ''Mario'' was established as a franchise. - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
:::I already did. - {{User:Glitchman/sig}}
Wait... shouldn't we be making our decisions based on continuity and connection of game universes rather than personal throughts on how far removed a character can be before his series isn't covered by our Wiki?  That line of reasoning is a little close to conjecturally determining canon for me. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 21:00, 10 January 2008 (EST)


Hey, Glitchman, Banjo-Kazooie was in fact an incredible game, and a completely new series made by Rare. However, we already tried adding both those series to this wiki. Everyone remember this summer? They were removed again in about a month. Plus, most of Conker's games are pretty... Innappropriate. I don't want to see that stuff around this wiki. {{User:InfectedShroom/sig}}
The main argument is that not only are these two images taken using a hacked version of the game, but that they aren't actually even intended in the first place; while we don't know much about how ''Sunshine'' works under the hood, the leading theory is that the object for the [[Proto Piranha]] simply borrows  the texture of whatever [[Goop]] is currently loaded. Given the resulting Proto Piranha inherits no other attributes of the goop aside from visuals, this definitely tracks. In addition, attempts to add these to TCRF were removed [https://tcrf.net/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Sunshine/Unused_Objects&diff=785172&oldid=783712 not once], [https://tcrf.net/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Sunshine/Unused_Objects&diff=787388&oldid=787192 but twice]. Given these images have been languishing for a long while with no real use, it seems more-or-less fine to remove them to us.


True, I don't think we should bother posting them again when they're just going to be deleted...AGAIN.  Per everyone else. {{User:Glitchman/sig}}
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT


== Removals ==
====Delete====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Given the lack of any glitches to even spawn a Proto Piranha in these areas, the dubious origin of the images themselves, and the fact that calling them "unused content" is a bit of a misnomer, we don't see any particular reason to keep these around--even the "the goop reflects the area it's loaded in" is already thoroughly demonstrated thanks to the images of the Proto Piranha as it already appears, in vanilla, in [[Delfino Airstrip]] and both [[Bianco Square]] and [[Bianco Hills]]. This, to us, would be like listing the thing where if you hack a Yoshi into a Castle stage in ''[[Super Mario World]]'' its head becomes a Lava Bubble as "unused content" for that game.
#{{User|Tails777}} I'm leaning towards this. I feel this would be different if there was a video showcasing what happens when you insert a Proto Piranha in a place it otherwise doesn't spawn in, mostly because it's not uncommon for us to cover possibilities only possible through hacks. If we had a bit more to back it all up, that's be fine, but images without anything else doesn't really prove a lot. At best, this is like a small trivia point for Proto Piranhas, not unused content. <small>They still look cool though.</small>.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} If it was not intended, then it is not unused content.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} The only thing that really kept me from nuking these images outright is because of lack of info and I'm glad that's cleared up in this proposal. Kill these.
#{{User|Technetium}} Here Ray Trace, you can borrow my FLUDD. Per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} Wash 'em away!


=== The [[Cheese]] article ===
====Keep====


I think we should get rid of this article, but before I explain my reasons for deleting this article, (In my flaming wreck of an opinion, of course) I will explain a few things to those that are new to the Mariowiki lore, because, let's face it, this article only exist because of a fad.
====Comments (delete alternative proto piranha images)====
i can see a case for keeping them around to illustrate how proto piranha's goo change isn't hardcoded, but i agree with the idea that a video might be better. i'll abstain for now. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 09:57, January 4, 2025 (EST)


During February 2007, two users (Don't remmember who exactly) discussed how tasty cheese is, eventually, other users started putting like "CHESSE IS SO AWESOME! LOL." on their userpages. This eventually culminated in the creation of a mainspace article called "The Cheese Craze of '07", which was nothing more than a thinly veiled place for spam. The Cheese Craze of '07 was deleted and the Cheese fad started to die down, a few months after, this article was created. That's about it for the backstory.
===Delete the MP11/MP12/MP13 redirects===
The existence of these was brought to our attention thanks to a redirect called [[Mario Party 13]] (as of proposal, this leads to ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'', which is already marked for deletion. This concerns both that redirect, as well as [[MP11]], [[MP12]], and [[MP13]].


Now, why this article should be deleted?:
Simply put, these redirects seem to be entirely based on rather uncommon fan nicknames for ''[[Super Mario Party]]'', ''[[Mario Party Superstars]]'', and ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]''. We can't find any sources that call these games Mario Parties 11, 12, or 13. Random flavor text notes that Super Mario Party is "the 11th party", but that's as close as you get. And unlike, say, our similarly deprecated "[[Fury Bowser|God Slayer Bowser]]" redirect, we don't even think there's any particular confusion that those are the respective names of the games. Given the unofficial origins of these nicknames, as well as the fact they seem to not even be that used, we don't see any harm in getting rid of these.


First, the '''Importance of the item to the Marioverse is dubious''': Let's see... it appear in [[Donkey Kong 64]] as something you can climb on. Some places in [[Super Mario World]] and the Mario Kart have "Cheese" in their name. It's mentioned in the [[Paper Mario]] series and appear as one of the generic [[food]] item in the Super Smash Bros. Series. It's only claim to fame is that it might boost (The article write it like you can only see one if you expect a piece of cheese, but that's untrue) the chance of seeing a [[Gold Mouse]] in [[Luigi's Mansion]], and I am not even sure it's true, it's said in the Prima Guide, but those aren't official and full of bogus info. An actually notable item called the [[Sacred Cylinder of Cheese]] play a major role in  one of the Valiant comic story, but I don't think it help Cheese in any case. Look at the [[Toy Time Galaxy]], it's the galaxy as a whole that is notable, we don't have an article on the individual toy-like surface that are in it, the same thing should apply to the Cylinder.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT


Second, '''If we allow Cheese to have an article, we should also allow a crapload of generic real world items to have their own articles''': Let's take the Baozi-like meal found in [[Young Cricket]] story in [[WarioWare: Smooth Moves]] as an example. It play a major role in Young Cricket story since he's racing to grab some while they're still fresh. They also affect the gameplay, since they also act as a life counter. Lost all of them and it's game over. The Baozi's do everything the Cheese do and more, so why we don't have an article on it?
====Delete (party's over!)====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Fairly self-explanatory; unofficial title? That's a paddlin'. Unofficial title that doesn't even seem to be that widely used? That's a paddlin'.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Does anyone actually call those games ''Mario Party 11'', ''12'' or ''13''? Per proposal.


Seriously: If we allow Cheese to have it's own article, we should also allow other generic items to have their articles such as Television, Bridge or the afro-mentioned baozi, why Cheese should have a priority over those other items?
====Keep (party on!)====


I hate when community stuff creep in the encyclopedia, this article is the perfect example of it.
====Comments (idle party chat)====
I do think fan nicknames [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/53#Recreate the numbered Mario Kart redirects|can be allowed as redirects]], so I'd vote to keep Mario Party 11 (because of the "eleventh party" mention in the game) but delete the other two (because then it starts getting ambiguous as to what counts). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:45, January 9, 2025 (EST)


'''Proposer''': [[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]] 08:02, 10 January 2008 (EST)
==Changes==
<br>
===Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"===
'''Deadline''': January 17th, 2008, 17:00
There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?


==== Delete it ====
Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.
#[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]] 08:02, 10 January 2008 (EST) To make a long story short, this article only exist because of a short lived fad and it's importance in the Marioverse is rather dubious.
#{{User:Xzelion/Signature}} Per Blitzwing
#[[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]] - Per Blitzwing.
#{{User:Pokemon DP/sig}} - I'm so sick of that fad, as well! Its ridiculous! Per Blitzwing!
# {{User:Ghost_Jam/sig}} - Per Blitzwing.
#{{User:Smiddle/sig}} &ndash; Per Blitzwing.
#{{User:Knife/sig}} 19:25, 11 January 2008 (EST) It does affect gameplay, but not enough. It affects gameplay as much as maybe a platform.
#{{User:Uniju :D/sig}} Per all.
#{{User:ChaosNinji/sig}} - This is like making a "Head Asplosion" article. It just doesn't fit. It's just based on some fad.
#{{User:3dejong/sig|suuuuure, call me a hypocrite. This is pretty much useless; I can't believe that it was even made. Stupid fad that I perpetuated in. >.<}}
#{{User:Storm Yoshi/sig}} Per Blitzwing


==== Keep it ====
This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.
#[[User:HyperToad|HyperToad]] As a Mariowiki, we should have articles on everything, maybe [[List of Real World Foods Appearing in the Mario Series]]?
#{{User:Glitchman/sig}}
That proposal wasn't long enough...:P  Per HyperToad.
#{{User:InfectedShroom/sig}} Hmmm... This decision was hard... But the Cheese does in fact have a role in gameplay. I think that the cheese in Luigi's Mansion is enough to keep the article. And yes, it's a stupid fad.
#{{User:Cobold/sig}} - The Luigi's Mansion cheese should be there. Per InfectedShroom.
#[[User:Master Crash|Master Crash]] Per All.
#{{User:Plumber/Pignature}} 20:30, 11 January 2008 (EST) Luigi's Mansion thing saves it.
#{{User:Crypt Raider/sig}} Per everyone
#{{User:Mr. Guy/sig}} It has appearences and a role, so it must stay
#[[User:huntercrunch|huntercrunch]] Per Mr. Guy.
#It's important. Keep or I destroy the deletor. [[User:Fly_Guy_2|FG2]]
#{{User:Stumpers/sig}} Ugh... I'm being bipolar.  I'm sorry.  It's been mentioned too many times for me.  I don't care if it has a real world counterpart: so does [[Peach (item)]].  To me, it's not a matter of having to create articles like the Snifit Ball, it's about deleting items like Peaches and other things to that extent.  I'm sorry Walkazo and Blitzwing.


==== Comments ====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Mario}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Blank support====
#{{User|Mario}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
#{{User|PopitTart}} <small>(This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)</small>
#{{User|Altendo}} <small>(Look at the code for my reasoning)</small><!---It might not seem annoying, but over time, or answering multiple proposals at once, it can start putting stress. Copy-pasting can be done, but it is just much easier to not type anything at all.---->
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}}
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really ''are'' just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at ''all.'' <small>(Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)</small> <!---Silent per all.---->
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
#{{user|TheDarkStar}} - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
#{{user|Ninja Squid}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.
#{{User|RetroNintendo2008}}
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} I am arguably in agreement with some of the opposition who argue that even "per all" should go in favor of each voter making an argument or explaining themselves, but if "per all" stays, then I don't really have a problem with allowing blank votes as well. I would prefer a proposal on getting rid of "per all" overall as its a bit of a lazy cop-out (at least name a specific guy you agree with), but a blank vote ultimate just means they agree with the OP's point and chose to vote with them - and I don't have a problem with that.


HyperToad: [[List of weapons in Super Mario RPG |No]], [[List of Boos in Luigi's Mansion|we]] [[List of Implied Characters|don't]] [[List of Cartoon Voice Actors|have]] [[List of Mario Kart Sponsors|an]] [[List of Catch Cards|article]] [[List of Sammer Guys|on]] [[List of Cameos|everything]]. There is nothing special about Cheese, it's only a real world object that sometimes get referenced in the Marioverse, what make it more worthy of it's own article than other generic objects? Some guy here just thought it was tasty and started a fad around it. About your idea of making a list.... it could work, althought I think it would get pretty crowded.
====Blank Oppose====
[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]]
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
#{{User|Technetium}} I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone ''does'' provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} {{color|white|Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type ''two words''.}}
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all <small>(is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)</small>
#{{User|Axii}} Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides ''some'' insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
#{{user|DesaMatt}} Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per Technetium, Ahemtoday, Axii and Mister Wu.


Although I agree about it's actual purpose, reworking the article is still an option. It appears in 2 games (at least) and the comics. Are we going to get rid off things that only appear in [[Wart|only one game]] or take out things that [[King Toadstool|''only'' appear in the comics]]. Honestly, notabilty arguements could go on forever. [[User:HyperToad|HyperToad]]
====Blank Comments====
:Unlike Cheese, Wart and King Toadstool actually have some importance (Plus, you are wrong on both only appearing in a certain medium, Wart have appeared in a few comics and King Toadstool was mentioned in the instuction manual of the first Mario Bros.).The plot of SMB2 was about Wart invasion of the [[Subcon]] and he was the final boss of the game. A lot of the Valiant comic stories were centered on King Toadstool and his goofy atics. Wart and King Toadstool have '''revalance''' to the Marioverse, Cheese does not. The problem with Cheese isn't the article, it's that the subject is way too freaking minor, if it wasn't for that "Cheese Lover" fad, that page wouldn't exist. I remmember we used to have an article on "Snufit Ball", (The grey ball shot by the [[Snufit]] enemy in [[Super Mario 64]]... seriously, we had a page on that.) but it got deleted because the subject was too minor. Snufit Ball is exactly the same as Cheese, really, it's generic, very minor, and only have a marginal effect on the Gameplay (It hurt Mario), it just hadn't the luck of having a fad centered around it.
I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)
[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]]
:I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
::There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:::My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
::::My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:{{@|Mario}} I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:In my opinion, saying "per OP" or "per (insert user here) is just as much effort as saying "per all" and at least demonstrates a modicum of original thought. I think that a blank vote is essentially the same as just voicing that you agree with the OP, so I did vote for that option in this case - but I think per all does an equally poor job to a blank vote at explaining what you think. At least requiring specific users to be hit with the "per" when voting would give far more of a baseline than "per all". That's not really what this proposal is about though, so I won't dwell on it. --[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 00:22, January 2, 2025 (EST)


Glitchman: What do you mean by "That proposal wasn't long enough."? If you mean that the opening thing is huge... well, I acknowledge I have difficulties abreviaitng my writting. But to make it short, Cheese as of now is too minor of a subject and we don't have "articles on everything" (See my comment.)
Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)
[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]]
:Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)


Blitzy: Cheese does effect gameplay, as confirmed by guidebooks (Prima among others).  Yeah, they're not official, but they still are sources that are superior to observations from an individual user, not to put you down or anything.  Could you have simply turned on the lights in the room before the mouse appears?  I've gone through runs of that game where I haven't seen any mice and others where they appear every time I enter particular rooms.  All of this says to me that you'd want to put cheese as a subsection on the Gold Mouse page though, don't you think?  To flat out delete the information would be crazy, plus, ''every edit that every user makes on a Wiki is influenced by his past, sometimes including gags and fads''.  So... to say that an article shouldn't exist because the user who created it was involved in a running gag that you happened to severely dislike seems very strange to me.  Should an article I made about Minor Characters from the Movie be deleted because I happen to love the fact that everyone seems to hate the Mario movie?  In other words, because I was interested in the movie because of the "running gag" of mocking the movie, and because I get into the mocking as well, should any edits I do on minor subjects from the movie be removed?
I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring ''a'' written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)


But you'll notice that the article example I gave would be a list, right?  I'm not advocating the cheese article to be its own necesarily, but that information should remain on the Wiki in some way, shape, or form.  No, the types of platforms in Toy Time Galaxy should not have individual articles, but they should be mentioned in the Toy Time Galaxy article, yes?  So, what I would do would be to make a list of Real World Subjects that have showed up in the Mario continuity (such as television, for example) and include Cheese in there... and include all of its cross-overs into the Mushroom World.
===Do not treat one-time ''Super Mario RPG'' names as recurring names===
{{early notice|January 10}}
This proposal is mainly aimed at [[Mini Goomba]] and [[Lava Bubble]], though there may be others in this regard that I'm not aware of. Both of these enemies had names that were only used for the original version (Goombette and Sparky respectively) but we continue to use these names for the enemies for other appearances where no name is given for them until an appearance which they do e.g calling Lava Bubbles "Sparkies" in regards to ''Super Mario 64''. Considering this is a game which had some questionable translations and the game's remake used properly translated names, I think we should only use these names in regards to the original ''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'' and instead use whichever name had been used beforehand for later appearances.


The Real World is as important to the Mario series as someplace like the [[Land of Ice]]... actually, it's more important.  You'll notice, however, that the Real World is still different from our own (in other worlds, there is no Blitzwing in the Mario interpretation, no?) and so I would say it's important that we note what does exist there, just as we talk about what exists in the Mushroom World.  So, cheese should be mentioned, just like everything else from the Real World, right?
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nightwicked Bowser}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT


I usually tend to diviate during my arguments, so please feel free to ask for clarification.  But I am on your side that we're probably giving too much relavence to a topic that can be looked up somewhere else... like Wikipedia. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 21:20, 10 January 2008 (EST)
====Support (Super Mario RPG names)====
:While the Prima guide is a superior source of information, it still is not official and can contain a lot of bogus info (see [[Kasplat]] and [[King Kut Out]] articles, among other), infact just search "Prima" in the search engine and you will find a lot of articles  pointing out mistakes in the Prima Guide. I will pull out that example again: We had an article on Snufit Ball, the projectile thrown by the Snufit enemy in SM64, if we keep Cheese, we should also recreate Snufit Ball since they both affect the gameplay in very minor ways.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} We shouldn't be treating a one-off oddball localization job as earnest renames.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Yeah I always thought this was a bit dumb, this is definitely a case where a bit of discretion is necessary. Per all.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per [[Sky Troopa]]s, [[Spookum]]s, and [[Shy Away]]s.
#{{User|OmegaRuby|OmegaRuby RPG: Legend of the Dragon Balls}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} [[Talk:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars#Names|THANK YOU.]] I remember years ago reading the Super Mario 64 section on [[Lava Bubble]] and thinking that was an actual name they were called in that game. It doesn't help that history sections are often not completely in chronological order.
#{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} It's quite a marvel to see how thorough of a negative impact these names have on the wiki.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per WT
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per [[Exor|Neosquid]].
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per [[Cheep Cheep|Goby]].
<s>{{User|Nintendo101|Nintendo101 RPG: Legend of the Silver Frogs}} Per proposal.</s>


The problem with the "It affect Gameplay!" reasoning is, that when you think about it, pretty much everything 'cept for the Mario Kart Sponsor affect gameplay. The bush and other objects you can shake in the [[Paper Mario]] series contain valuable items and you kinda interact with them. In the WarioWare series, you have to use a variety of object to get the task done... ect. While affecting the gameplay is a good argument, an article shouldn't be kept merely because it affect a very minor part of the game.
====Oppose (Super Mario RPG names)====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I feel a ditty coming on, about a few things from NoA in the 90's. Peeeeeeer... [[Boo#Yoshi's Safari|The]] [[Boo#Mario Clash|Big]] [[Boo#Yoshi's Story|Boo]], [[Cheep Cheep#Super Mario 64 / Super Mario 64 DS|Bub]], [[Spiny Egg#Super Mario 64 / Super Mario 64 DS|spiny bomb]], [[Piranha Flower]], [[Crazed Crate|Whomp Block]], [[Paragaloomba#Super Mario World|Flying]] [[Paragoomba#Yoshi's Safari|Goomba]]... [[Koopa Paratroopa#Yoshi's Safari|Koopa Para Troopa]], [[Koopa Paratroopa#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Para-Koopa]], [[Koopa Paratroopa#Super Mario World / Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2|Winged/Flying Koopa Troopa]]... [[Cheep Cheep#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Flopsy Fish]], [[Cheep Cheep#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Piscatory Pete]], [[unshelled Koopa#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Beach Koopa]], [[Swoop#Super Mario 64 / Super Mario 64 DS|Swoop]][[Swoop#Super Mario World|(er)]], [[Ninji#Super Mario World / Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2|Mini-Ninja]], where's [[Pokey (projectile)|Needle]]'s [[Spiked Fun Guy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|nose]]... [[Spark#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Piro Dangle]], [[Blargg (small)#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Red]] [[Blargg]], [[Big Chain Chomp#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island|Shark Chomp]], [[Toady#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Green/Solo Toady]], [[Piranha Plant#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Wild Piranha]]... [[Spike#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Mace Penguin]], [[Spike#Yoshi's Story|Gabon]], [[Grand Goomba#Mario's Picross|Grand Goomba]], [[Propeller Piranha|Hootie is Not a Fish]]... Oh yeah, [[Monty Mole#Game & Watch Gallery series|Chubby]], [[Pouncer|weight]] (I'm a waiter?), [[Lava Bubble#Mario Party 2 / Mario Party Superstars|Podoboo]], [[Lava Bubble#Yoshi's Story|Spark Spook]]...*wew*...[[Baby Yoshi#Yoshi|Little Yoshi]], [[Baby Yoshi#Super Mario World / Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2|Mini-Yoshi]], [[Baby Yoshi#Mario's Picross|''Mini'' Yoshi]], [[Nep-Enut#Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island / Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|Submarine Nep-Enut]], [[Boo Balloon|Blue Boo]], [[Big Boo#Super Mario World|Big Blue Boo]]... [[Goomba#Yoshi|Little Goomba]], [[Parachute Galoomba|(Para-)]][[Galoomba|Goomba]], [[Jumping Piranha Plant|a Pirhana Plant]]! Why's [[Froggy]] so [[Frog Pirate|froggy]]? And now that you've sang alooooooong, you know Square really did no wrooooooong♪


About the list idea, while it could work, I think it would just end up as a gigantic list of "(Insert Generic item here) is a real-word object that sometimes appear in the Marioverse, it appear in (Insert Game Name here)" style entries without much info.
====Comments (Super Mario RPG names)====
There are a few instances in which recurring names are listed for other one-off games, like [[Lava Bubble|Spark Spooks]] from Yoshi's Story, if information serves correct. Perhaps the maintenance done if this proposal passes could be extended to instances from games other than Super Mario RPG? {{User:OmegaRuby/sig}} 08:32, January 3, 2025 (EST)


About the "You only want to delete this because you hate that fad" thing, yes, I hate that fad and want to see it dissapear. However, even if a part of me hate the fad, I still think Cheese isn't worthy of it's own article, maybe as a mention in a list or something. The problem isn't that Cheese have a cult centered around it, it's that Cheese was '''only''' created because of it. Do I have to start a fad centered about Snufit Ball to recreate it? Geez.
I actually disagree with pointing fingers at the original game while NOA in general was still clearly figuring things out as they were going along (Lava Bubble isn't the greatest example since Podoboo lasted for quite a while). Maybe rephrase this as "names that were changed in the remake" because that's what this proposal is really targeting. I have a separate idea on how to handle unchanged one-offs like Yo'ster Isle that might conflict with another proposal I had in mind. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, the Yo'ster Isle example should already be dealt with by [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations|this proposal]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)
[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]]
:Actually, this has been on my mind even long before the remake came out so I won't be rephrasing the proposal. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:08, January 3, 2025 (EST)
:Thank you for clarifying.  I was thinking about this some more, so how about this: we cut the article up and put it's little sections as mentions in each game.  We also mention cheese in Mouser and Gold Mouse's articles.  Then, we start the list on the "Real World" article, even if it is just a list without any "entry". Sound good? {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 21:30, 11 January 2008 (EST)
::The remake is handing you something quantifiable to work with on a silver platter besides "translation bad." Why not? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)
:: I wouldn't be against that. That way, we still keep revalant info but we don't allow a very minor object to have a mainspace article.
:::Because it's my proposal and I'll phrase it how I see it. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:17, January 3, 2025 (EST)
[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]]
::::You'd get the same overall effect but with a better precedent behind it is my point. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:24, January 3, 2025 (EST)
:::I'll also support these actions, but as it would still require in the deletion of the Cheese Article shouldn't you move your vote Stumpers? - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
::::I wanted to make sure that the information would still be on the Wiki first.  I'd rather have bad formatting than missing information. :)  Here was my vote, btw, for anyone interested, "Not to be tounge in cheek here, but I hate it when users let their prejudices for an article's past control whether or not it should be deleted.  Sounds sort of like the arguement that we should delete video game stub articles to me.  I really like HyperToads ideas, but I'd like to expand on that an propose a "List of Real World Subjects" instead.  See my comments below..." {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 15:05, 12 January 2008 (EST)


Fly_Guy_2: Was that a joke or are you threatening? - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 13:35, 13 January 2008 (EST)
:I don't see how the Podoboo -> Lava Bubble rename affects this in any meaningful way? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:41, January 3, 2025 (EST)
:[http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMaster_Crash%2FArchive_17&diff=309076&oldid=309065 Npot the first time he threaten another user.]
::Lava Bubble didn't appear in a manual or game yet, so by present rules, this passing would result in swapping Sparky with Podoboo in ''Super Mario 64'' <small>(released a mere 3~4 months apart)</small> - one non-current name for another. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:47, January 3, 2025 (EST)
[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]]
:::That is my exact intent here. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:49, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::This reminds me that my original idea was to use the term "Bubble" for ''Super Mario 64'', given the peculiarities, albeit still covering it in the Lava Bubble article. That would just leave resized Goomba, as mentioned below. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:46, January 4, 2025 (EST)
:::"Lava Bubble" is employed in ''Mario Mania'', and while I understand this is a lower-priority source since instruction booklets are physically packaged with the games, I do personally hold that at equal value since ''Mario Mania'' is a guidebook for ''Super Mario World'' written by Nintendo of America, who also translated and wrote the instruction booklet. (I don't know if NoA has ever felt inclined to specify this anywhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if the guidebook and instruction booklet even involve the same individual staff members.) I understand how it is intuitively confusing to see how an enemy called "Lava Bubble" in the ''Super Mario World'' section of its own article suddenly be called "Sparky" in the ''Super Mario 64'' section (which, technically, it is not called anywhere at all in the English material for that game), only for it to be called "Lava Bubble" again in the next immediate section. So I understand the appeal.
:::This is tangential, but personally, I am not even really certain the "Lava Bubble" in ''Super Mario 64'' is supposed to be the recurring enemy we see elsewhere since it looks like an ambient plume of fire, and we only refer to it as a "Lava Bubble" because the internal filename for this thing is "BUBBLE." I dunno if that literally means it is intended to be the same subject. If it really is the same subject, I know the Japanese name for [[Lethal Lava Land]] is ファイアバブル ランド (''Faia Baburu Rando'', Fire Bubble Land). Is the land named after the enemy? Because if that is the case, maybe it would be more accurate to refer to Lava Bubbles as "Lethal Lavas" in ''Super Mario 64''-related portions of the wiki, not "Sparkies." - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:09, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::Responding to your tangent, as mentioned in the Lava Bubble article, the enemy's design in 64 DS was reused in New Super Mario Bros., which further indicates that, at least in the remake, those are intended to be Lava Bubbles. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:28, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::If memory serves, there's no real name for the object designated as "BUBBLE" in any material (or at least, nothing jumped out to me). For whatever reason, it's harder to find than Keronpa Ball, having completely fallen by the wayside. Having said that, I think a reasonable conclusion has been drawn in the absence of anything better to go off on. Doc added the part about the course name, I think. But - since this proposal is mainly eyeing Lava Bubble and Mini Goomba - I should mention that Mini Goomba is [[Special:Diff/4407550#Size Experiments: Plan|another can of worms]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:36, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::{{@|Nintendo101}} - Not until we start listing the Magikoopa species in SMRPG as "[https://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars/Unused_Text#Enemy_Names Merlins]." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:22, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:::::{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} is that the same situation? "Lethal Lava Land" is the name of the level... in the game as it was released. The average player is shown this name. "Merlin" is just in the codes and not nakedly presented to the player. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 12:49, January 6, 2025 (EST)


==Splits & Merges==
===Organize "List of implied" articles===
{{early notice|January 12}}
Here's one of those "two related proposals in one with a YY-YN-NY-NN support scheme" proposals, concerning the following articles:


*[[List of implied characters]]
*[[List of implied entertainment]]
*[[List of implied events]]
*[[List of implied items]]
*[[List of implied locations]]
*[[List of implied organizations]]
*[[List of implied people]]
*[[List of implied species]]


Right now, each of these is sorted purely alphabetically, with no regards for where or when they were implied to exist. The closest thing to an attempt at organization is Locations dividing between fictional and real locations, which also happens to expose a flaw with this particular article: nearly all the implied locations are there simply because they're mentioned on the [[Globulator]], with no other substance to their entry. All of these cities are already listed on the Globulator article anyways.


===Split up the Quote Sections===
There are other changes I'd like to propose for some particular articles, but for now, let's leave it at these two:
As I'm looking around the wiki, I see '''''HUGE''''' quote sections on certain pages (mostly pages on big characters like [[Mario]] and [[Princess Peach]]). I think that we should remove the quotes altogether from these pages and make an entire page devoted simply to quotes from the Marioverse. Yes, it will be a long page, but I think it will be better. What are your thoughts on the matter?


*We could also make seperate "Quote Pages" for each game or character, which would serve the same purpose, and make quotes easier to find.  
*'''Reorganize''': Sort each article chronologically like your average History section, divided by series and then by game. This should help lump, say, all the Marvelous Compass locations in one place, or all the celebrities namedropped in the Super Show.
*'''Deglobulize''': Remove all real world locations from [[List of implied locations]] that are there exclusively because they're mentioned in the Globulator. This would exclude entries like Brazil, who have more to discuss than merely being acknowledged. I consider Locations the article on this list that needs the most trimming, so if this half of the proposal doesn't pass, I won't bother making follow-up articles for trimming the rest.


'''Proposer''': {{User:InfectedShroom/sig}} 22:29, 10 January 2008 (EST)<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 17, 2008, 17:00
'''Deadline''': January 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Split The Quotes!====
====Both reorganize and deglobulize====
#{{User:InfectedShroom/sig}}   My thoughts are above.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} primary choice.
#{{User:Stumpers/sig}} Having them on the page detracts from the analysis, and the pages are getting way beyond that 32MB guideline or whatever it is. I'd rather have the multiple pages.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Seems reasonable. I never liked how confusing these pages are.
#{{User:Glitchman/sig}}
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
Ghost Jam does have a point, but as long as the patrollers kept an eye on the page it would be a more complete and less destracting way of posting gaming quotes on the Wiki.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#[[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]] - I'm only supporting the creation of seperate quotes pages for the various games divided up into sections for individual characters.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#--[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]] 14:01, 12 January 2008 (EST) Per everyone. Some of these quotes section are gigatarnacious.
#{{User|Technetium}} Hmm what's the Globulator? *checks page* Oh. Oh god. Yeah that's a per proposal if I've ever seen one.
#-[[User:Orangeyoshi|Orangeyoshi]] 20:40, 13 January 2008 (EST) Yes, but we should have one article for each character's quotes. And, we might not need a seperate quote page for minor characters. But I like the idea.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and Technetium.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} '''Yipe.''' We knew the Globulator was causing issues, but we didn't expect them to be... That. And, of course, re-orgnaizing the remainder is fine.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.


====Keep Them Where They Are.====
====Only reorganize====
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} secondary choice.


# {{User:Ghost Jam/sig}} - Seems like a license for spam.
====Only deglobulize====
#Quotes are fun! Keep them. Or else. [[User:Fly Guy 2|FG2]]


====Comments====
====Do not reorganize nor deglobulize (do nothing)====
GhostJam, how so? {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 00:54, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 
====List of implied comments====
If deglobulize wins, I think a disclaimer should be added to the list of implied locations (either at the top of the article or the top of the "Real locations" section) explaining that the Globulator doesn't count. Also, if reorganize wins, does the location list keep its "''Super Mario'' franchise locations" and "Real locations" sections? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:05, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:that first one is a good idea, def should be implemented. i want to say yes for the second one, but i think it depends on what the article ends up looking like when reorganized. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 16:08, January 5, 2025 (EST)


I think we used to have a page about a list of Quotes found in [[Super Mario 64]] and [[Super Mario 64 DS|it's remake]], althought I can't find it now.... was it deleted?
===Simplify "wikitable dk"===
[[User:Blitzwing|Blitzwing]]
This is proposing to slightly simplify the "wikitable dk" class into something that both maintains the elements of a wikitable (such as the gray border and blank background) while maintaining the Donkey Kong theme. Since the current one isn't the most comfortable to read (at least for me), I've thought of a middle ground that I think ultimately looks nicer and feels more consistent with the site design and wikitables in general, so if this proposal passes, the "wikitable dk" style would look like the following:


What's the point of this proposal? I mean, we just had a proposal regarding quotes, and we decided to remove those quote sections. Someone just would have to take action. {{User:Time Q/sig}} 10:00, 11 January 2008 (EST)
{|class="wikitable" width=25%
!style="color:#fff;background:#9C6936"|Image
!style="color:#fff;background:#9C6936"|Name
!style="color:#fff;background:#9C6936"|Amount
|-style="background:wheat"
|align="center"|[[File:Awk.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Awk]]
|16
|-
|align="center"|[[File:Frogoon_screenshot.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Frogoon]]
|3
|-style="background:wheat"
|align="center"|[[File:TikiGoon.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Tiki Goon]]
|4
|-
|align="center"|[[File:Screaming_Pillar.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Screaming Pillar]]
|4
|-style="background:wheat"
|align="center"|[[File:Rawk.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Rawk]]
|3
|}


We JUST had this SAME proposal. Urgh! [[User:HyperToad|HyperToad]]
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
:Not true. The other one was different: completely removing certain quotes from the pages. I say we keep them all, but on a different page. I WANT SOMETHING DONE ABOUT QUOTES. {{User:InfectedShroom/sig}}
'''Deadline''': January 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT
::On the last proposal I said we should make quotes pages for individual characters (or for groups like all the Koopalings). However, now I prefer Blitzwing's suggestion of quotes divided up into individual games (and for the TV series' and movies). I've seen it done on other sites and it makes finding individual quotes a bit easier, especially if each page is divided up into sections for the different people speaking (but with the minor characters grouped together to minimize cluttered headlining). - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
:::Hmmm... I thought of doing that... I thought the other way would be easier. Oh well. I will add your comment to the main part. {{User:InfectedShroom/sig}}
::::Splended! - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
Hmmm... I'm gonna need help making the pages if this proposal makes it... {{User:InfectedShroom/sig}}


I just thought of something. And it's not good. Splitting the quotes by game would be good for newer games, like Super Mario 64 or Galaxy. But what about games with almost no quotes, like Super Mario Bros.? That would make some pages ''very'' small. I think that we should make quote pages for individual characters ''and then'' make sections in that character-quote page for individual games/TV series/Movies. This would also make it easier for me in ''making'' these quote pages, as all the quotes I need are on one page, so I can easily transfer them to a new one. It could also make it moderatly easier to look for certain quotes. Sooo... your thoughts? {{User:InfectedShroom/sig}} Meh, forgot the last ~
====Support====
:Hmmm, the question is, are most people going to be looking for quotes from specific games or quotes from specific characters? People do both, but I think dividing it up by games first and pputting links to the individual characters' sections in those pages on their main pages will make it easier for everyone to navigate. Also, we could group the games without many quotes together to eliminate short pages. Anyway, homework takes up a lot of my time but I'll still try to help with this project. - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per
::Hmmm... sounds good. {{User:InfectedShroom/sig}}


==Changes==
====Oppose====
===A Glitch Too Many===
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - The proposed "solution" to the alleged "issue" just looks ugly to me.
Whenever I go to the [[List of Glitches]] page, I see a mess. With all those glitches out there, I feel like the page needs help. The only way I can see helping the page out is by weeding out all of the glitches that either: A) Can't be proven or B) Aren't  notable. If a glitch meets one of these two requirements, then it would be okay to mention in the article. Remember, we all can claim to have experienced a glitch, but proof is the thing that we need to make sure if the glitch is true. After all, not listing glitches is better than putting down glitches we think happened.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think the way they look now is serviceable enough as long as it remains easy to for other users to edit. It does the passive job of communicating to the reader that they are reading a ''Donkey Kong'' article. I'm not opposed to revisions though - maybe things can be further simplified - I just think the one recommended in this proposal is a ''little'' too simple though.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} I tell you what.
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} While the existing table style is not winning any prizes, getting rid of colours is not something I support. In fact, if standardised to an extend, I would actually support a bit more colour, especially since the last table proposal.
#{{user|Fun With Despair}} Honestly, I just think it looks fine as-is. Several professional spreadsheets such as schedules I have worked on also alternate the tones of their rows - it's just easier on the eyes.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Alternating colors are a thing on many, many tables--usually, very large ones, like spreadsheets. While the current one is, admittedly, a ''tad'' gaudy, it's perfectly clear and readable.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all, especially Lakituthequick


'''Proposer''': {{User:Knife/sig}} 15:17, 7 January 2008 (EST)<br>
====Comments====
'''Deadline:''': 14 January, 2008, 17:00
why not use a brown heading with white text? {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:{{@|EvieMaybe}} Do you or {{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} have a suggestion which shade of brown can be used? I stated in the proposal that I'm open for suggestions of a better color to use. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::I think it looks just fine as-is... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:20, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:::It's not the most accessible in my opinion, and it doesn't match the simple aesthetic of this website. It would also fall in line with the precedent set to use simpler table styles. This is the only style with that inconsistency. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:22, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::::{{@|EvieMaybe}} Okay, so I think I found a shade of brown that works well while still actually making it look like an actual wikitable, so I've altered the wikitable style accordingly. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:24, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:::::you sure about the colored rows? it doesn't really match the rest of the wiki's style. the darker brown on the top looks pretty good, though. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 18:27, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::::::Nintendo101 said it looked a bit too simplified, so I added the colors myself. Do you have a different idea for row colors? [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:31, January 7, 2025 (EST)


==== Glitches Must Be Notable or Proved ====
{{@|Nintendo101}} <s>Want to draft up something that would look less simplified so I can get an idea of what you're stating?</s> Wait, I think I found something. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:12, January 7, 2025 (EST)
#{{User:Knife/sig}} 17:00, 7 January 2008 (EST) My reasons are given above.
#[[User:HyperToad|HyperToad]] Per Knife, I actually belive there is no reason for the page at all.


==== Leave Glitches As They Are ====
For what it's worth, I have been sitting on a proposal for more colourful table styles since [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Encourage_concise.2C_consistent_and_minimalistic_layouts_and_design_for_tables|the last Grand Table Proposal™]], but still need to actually, like, write and post it. As I said in that one, I am not against getting rid of colour, that would only serve to make things more boring.<br>
#[[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]] - See my comment below.
I do not actually know how things work when proposals with directly relating goals are posted at the same time, so I will refrain from posting mine until at least after this one settles. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
#[[User:Glitchman|Glitchman]] - If there's even a chance of a glitch existing, I want to know about it.  Per Walkazo.
:I'll be honest, I was thinking of doing that as well, though I never really had a solid plan. My only idea was to tie it into a similar system on the wiki and use [[MarioWiki:Navigation_templates#Coloration|the same coloration guides as navboxes]] for tables. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 21:59, January 8, 2025 (EST)
#{{User:Stumpers/sig}} per Walkazo and Glitchman.
#'''[[User:InfectedShroom|InfectedShroom.]]'''[[Image:infectoicon.png]] [[User_talk:InfectedShroom|Talk]] Per the man that is glitchy and the... azo that is... uh... Walk? :P But seriously, I love that page. Keep it the same.
#{{User:Crypt Raider/sig}} Plz, it's just a list of glitches, keep it the way it is! Remove it if it's false.
#Keep them! I think we should have a possibility meter to show how often it can be done. 100%, Good chance, Possible, Barely, and 1-time-only. [[User:Fly Guy 2|FG2]]


==== Comment ====
==Miscellaneous==
How are we supposed to prove the glitches exist? Photos? Acknowledgement from Nintendo? Also, aren't we supposed to have everything we can possibly find about ''Mario'' on here? If we strip off the minor glitches we'd be defeating the purpose of ''Super Mario Wiki''. However the page '''does''' need to be cleaned up, something that can easily be accomplished in ways other than scrapping a handfull of glitches (i.e. combine the two ''SMS'' walking-under-water glitches and scrap the "'''Requirements'''"). - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
===Normalise splitting long References to/in other media sections===
Last year, I successfully proposed that the [[The Super Mario Bros. Movie#References to other media|References to other media section on ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' article]] should be split into its own article due to its length, with the same later occurring for the [[Super Mario Bros.#References in later games|References in later games section on ''Super Mario Bros.'']] On [[Talk:Super Mario Bros.#Split References in other media section|the TPP for splitting the latter section]], the user [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] supported saying "i wonder what'll be the next game to require this". That got me to realise that other articles with these sections are of similar length, and suffer the same problems that I originally pointed out in those past proposals. Select examples that I've been able to find include the following:
*''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' ([[Super Mario Bros. 2#References in later media|references in later media]])
*''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'' ([[Super Mario Bros. 3#References in later media|references in later media]])
*''[[Super Mario World]]'' ([[Super Mario World#References in later games|references in later games]])
*''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'' ([[Super Mario Odyssey#References to other media|references to]])
*''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' ([[Super Mario Bros. Wonder#References to other media|references to]])
Again, these are just examples. There's probably more out there that are equally as long. If this proposal were to achieve support, there would have to be some sort of guideline (similar to [[MarioWiki:Galleries#Splitting galleries|splitting galleries]]) relating to a certain limit at which the section is split, possibly a maximum of 20-30 bullet points or certain number of bytes before splitting, as the sections I've cited as examples go over said amount of bullet points. Normalising this would also prevent anyone from having to make separate TPPs to suggest splitting each and every long section separately, and would also help create some consistency, as it doesn't make much sense for only a few select references to/in other media sections to be split rather than more.


Generally blanket ideas like this look good in thoery, but you're looking at something as varied as glitches, and plus you have the problem of "notability" arguements.  Maybe they're worth it for an article that could be featured, but an individual glitch?  Plus, I don't want to see someone put hours of work into something just to have it removed. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 19:19, 7 January 2008 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|RetroNintendo2008}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 18, 2025, 23:59 GMT


If we only kept the most famous and notable glitches, such as [[Minus World]] and [[Fireless Bowser]], the wiki's original purpose would have been replaced to be a video game ''dictionary'' instead of a fun and interesting place to learn cheats, gameplay, and of course, glitches.  Many people (such as myself) rely on the Wiki to find all of the glitches they can. And like Walkazo said, how would you go about proving their existance? - {{User:Glitchman/sig}} 16:33, 7 January 2008 (PT)
====Support====
:Good point.  I know I've found plenty of glitches on ''Animal Crossing: Wild World'' that I didn't take a photo of, even though I later joined an AC Wiki. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 19:41, 7 January 2008 (EST)
#{{User|RetroNintendo2008}} Per all.
<s>{{User|EvieMaybe}} look ma, i'm on tv! yeah, this seems like a very reasonable thing to do</s>


Hmm... I just looked at the page, and yes, it does need cleaning up. My comment still stands, however. '''[[User:InfectedShroom|InfectedShroom.]]'''[[Image:infectoicon.png]] [[User_talk:InfectedShroom|Talk]]
====Oppose====
:Just as an aside, and this isn't to be insulting, but why did we decide to do a list of glitches page instead of making it a list of links to glitches sections in the games?  I didn't know how to phrase that to not sound insulting, so just know that I don't mean for it to be... {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 21:56, 7 January 2008 (EST)
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I support in principle, but I'm against the proposed implementation here. We already have [[MarioWiki:Article size]] for determining what to do when pages get too long, so what I would like to see is simply considering references sections as things that can get split off when that happens. Of the pages linked in this proposal, SMB2 and 3 don't even meet the minimum byte count for a split (SMB2 falls especially short at ~85k bytes). SMB didn't meet those criteria before the proposal either and I think that should be reversed. These lists aren't ''that'' long all things considered and they're kept pretty low on the page so I don't think their presence is necessarily intrusive.
::How is that insulting? Anyway, as it is now it's like a one-stop-shopping page for the glitches. Its easier for people to read about them all on one page than having to flit from one to another to another, etc. Also, if we ''did'' make it simply a list of links, sooner or later someone's bound to propose we make it a proper page again... - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Waluigi Time; we already have policies for this, and we see no need to carve out any exceptions for the references section just yet.
:Walkazo does have a point. - [[User:Glitchman|Glitchman]]
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Waluigi Time. A good idea in principal, but only if warranted on a case-by-case basis. I generally do not like splitting up pages unless necessary.
::Well... can we still put some major glitches on the game pages?  It kinda seems like making articles about game modes, and then refering users to them, which is something that Steve allegedly said we shouldn't do.  I dunno.  The list of glitches is cool. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 23:23, 8 January 2008 (EST)
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Waluigi Time, i hadn't considered that. i hope that if this proposal ends with Oppose bc of everyone backing WT, we still remember that we can split reference sections to trim article size
:::Yeah, definitely. The hard part's still deciding which glitches are major, though. Minus World definitely, and the Fireless Bowser, but it gets hard for things like ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'' where there are so many glitches. I personally think the "Blue Nowhere" (or whatever it's being called these days) and the Walking-Under-Water glitches are the biggies for that game (since they're the most well known and easiest to come across while gaming). - [[User:Walkazo|Walkazo]]
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Waluigi Time.
::::Sorry, I should have clarified. What I meant by major were those that effected gameplay.  So, I would exclude visual glitches I think (unless we're talking about something such as a beta element sneaking in)... yeah, maybe that's too relative. {{User:Stumpers/sig}} 20:31, 9 January 2008 (EST)


== Miscellaneous ==
====Comments====
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 07:45, January 9, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Thursday, January 9th, 12:46 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  2. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  3. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  8. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  14. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  15. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  16. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  17. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  18. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  19. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  20. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Below is an example of what your proposal must look like. If you are unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. When updating the bracketed variables with actual information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games, Nintendo101 (ended December 25, 2024)
Establish a consistent table format for the "Recipes" section on Paper Mario item pages, Technetium (ended January 8, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Make changes to List of Smash Taunt characters, Hewer (ended December 27, 2024)
Merge ON/OFF Conveyor Belt with Conveyor Belt, PopitTart (ended January 1, 2025)

Writing guidelines

Include missions (and equivalencies) to subjects we put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style

The passing of this proposal would include the in-game missions and equivalencies (i.e. episodes from Super Mario Sunshine, objectives from Super Mario Odyssey, etc.) to the subjects we put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style.

In reference material aimed at describing and chronicling creative works, putting quotation marks around certain types of subjects has become a well-established practice. This is acknowledged in our Manual of Style, in which it states that video games, TV series, and albums should be italicized, whereas individual music titles, named book chapters, and TV episodes should be within quotation marks. I am personally not a fan of adhering to traditions or standards just for the sake of it, but there are strong utilitarian reasons why this has become commonplace. Last year, I relayed what these were in a proposal that aimed to remove quotation marks from song titles, stating:

The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a greater whole (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in The Color of Water. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of Resident Alien. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the Super Mario franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "Gusty Garden Galaxy" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and Gusty Garden Galaxy is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.

I hope this adequately explains why I think this is a good practice for us as editors, and how this benefits visitors to our site.

I would like us to explicitly include missions as subjects we should put quotation marks around. This is something I do already on the wiki because I have always perceived them as scenarios within a creative work, much like a TV episode or named chapter in a novel. They often even have unique narrative elements. Consequently, presenting them between quotation marks comes with the same benefit to readers. Proper levels (which I conceptualize as locations within the creative works we cover, not scenarios) have been given a diversity of different names through the franchise's history and many of them sound like they could be referring to scenarios. For folks browsing the wiki or reading an article covering a recurring subject, wouldn't it be nice to have some passive indication that Here Come the Hoppos is a level, whereas "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" is a scenario within a level? I think that'd provide helpful clarity.

As an example of what this would look like in practice, I recommend the Super Mario Galaxy article, where I embraced this fully. I don't include quotation marks around missions in the level table because I feel that looks a little busy and they aren't as helpful there, but I always include them when I mention a mission within a sentence, just like I do with chapters and song titles. The only reason why I am making this proposal is because I have seen the quotation marks removed from mission names on other articles I have worked on, and I would rather we keep them. I think it is a good idea.

For clarification, this proposal does not impact the names of actual levels, which I consider to be locations within the creative works we cover, regardless of how silly their names are in English. It is not commonplace to put quotation marks around the names of locations in creative works, and it would also defeat the intent behind this proposal. What would be the point of including quotation marks around "Big Bob-omb on the Summit" if you are also including them around "Bob-omb Battlefield?" That would just be redundant and clarify nothing to our readers.

I offer two options:

  1. Add missions (and equivalencies like episodes and objectives) to list of subjects we should put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style.
  2. Don't do that.

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: January 21th, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support: I like this idea! Let's include missions on the Manual of Style.

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Our thought process for this is, admittedly, a tad silly, but hear us out here; if we give episodes of TV shows, like, say, "Mama Luigi", quotation marks in places like the list of episodes, to even the infobox of its own article, we can see a reason to go for this. While we don't feel as strong about this as others, we do feel like it at least makes SOME sense to us to apply this rationale to what is, effectively, the gameplay analogue to an "episode".

Oppose: I think this is a bad idea. Let's not do that.

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) I maintain my stance from the aforementioned proposal — these quotation marks are misrepresentative of these subjects' official names, and the insistent use of them makes it impossible to tell the errant times they are official from the times in which they are not. This is prioritizing a manual of style over the truth, which is unacceptable no matter how minor.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per Ahemtoday, and I also think the argument for using the quotation marks for missions in particular is especially weak because I don't think you can argue it's a common practice elsewhere like you can with music. It doesn't help to clarify anything for the reader if they don't already know it's a standard.
  3. Salmancer (talk) Putting quotes exclusively around mission names would be saying that a mission has more narrative content than a level, as both are equally discrete segments of video games. (Start at one point, goal at other point, stuff in between, game enters a state with lessened consequences in-between, be that a transition to the next level/mission or a World Map/hubworld.) And sure, missions have more narrative content on average than levels. But that's an average and is far from absolute, mostly being decided by "are there NPCs in this mission/level who are relevant to the story"? Levels can have those, like Bowser Jr. Showdown, and missions can lack those, like with Smart Bombing. It would be best for Super Mario Wiki to not pass judgement.
  4. EvieMaybe (talk) ignoring the fact that the line between what counts as a "mission" and what doesn't by the given definition is murky (do bogstandard Power Moon names count, if SM64 stars do? what about Brothership side quests? TTYD troubles? achievements?), i think the way this proposal tries to apply a standard used for episodes in a show and songs in an album to only a particular stripe of objectives within a videogame is drawing a false equivalence. deciding that levels are strictly separate "locations" while missions are "scenarios" also feels like an improper conflation of game-mechanical and narrative terminology (what about levels that share locations with others, like Master of Disguise's first and second levels?). this feels like a misapplied idea.
  5. Jdtendo (talk) Per all: it's unneeded, it does not make much sense to put mission names in quotation marks but not level names, it's not always clear what qualifies as a mission or not, and this would not be helpful to most readers because they would not be aware of this convention.

Comments on this quotation mark/mission proposal

@Ahemtoday I believe your proposal did not pass because the arguments were not persuasive. There are very few expectations for users and visitors of this site other than that they have baseline writing and reading comprehension skills. I am not privy to anyone, certainly not a systemic amount of people, who have seen quotation marks around the name of a subject and assume it is literally part of the name. I do not think it is a reasonable argument. I do not even know of any music tracks in the franchise with quotation marks around them as part of their name outside of the four items from Paper Mario: The Origami King - in a nearly forty year-old franchise with hundreds of music tracks. The inclusion of quotation marks for these four subjects is clearly the exception, not the rule, and a useful writing convention should not be thrown out just for them. It takes very little effort to just share in the body paragraphs of those four articles that the quotation marks are part of their names (if one even thinks it is necessary, which I am still unconvinced is). We are not misinforming readers here.

Additionally, bringing up that music track is a non sequitur because this proposal does not impact music: it impacts missions. If you feel like quotation marks around any subject, regardless of medium (i.e. televised episodes, song titles, titled novel chapters, and potentially missions, if this proposal were to be successful) is inherently "lying," as you assert in your previous proposal, it is dependent on the idea that your average reader sees quotation marks and assume they are part of the title unless otherwise specified, which you have not unsubstantiated. I don't think that happens. That is like seeing the title Super Mario Galaxy on the wiki and feeling misinformed because every letter on the title screen is capitalized. - Nintendo101 (talk) 03:36, January 8, 2025 (EST)

The point is that the speech marks sometimes are part of the name and putting them around all names regardless of that removes that distinction. It wouldn't be immediately obvious to a reader that they are part of the title of "Deep, Deep Vibes" but are not part of the title of "Happy & Sappy". Similar cases are ""Hurry Up!" Ground BGM" and ""It's-a Me, Mario!"", where I think the double quotation marks look bad. A solution I'd be fine with is to only use the quotation marks in running text and not tables, which seems to already be done on many album pages (though I'm still opposed to using quotation marks at all for mission names since I don't think it's an established standard). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:48, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Why is it more immediately important to relay that quotation marks are part of a subject's title over the fact that it is a song as opposed to something else? — Nintendo101 (talk) 04:57, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Because the goal of saying the title is simply to say the title, not to also clarify immediately what kind of thing it is. That's what context is for, not titles. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Then why do we italicize game titles? - Nintendo101 (talk) 09:39, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Because it's an established standard (and one Nintendo sometimes adheres to), unlike putting quotes around mission names. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:26, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Very few novels put quotation marks around their own chapter titles. Independent reference material on those novels always do. Do you think we would not italicize video game titles if Nintendo themselves did not? - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:02, January 8, 2025 (EST)
What reference material puts quotation marks around video game mission titles that were not present in the game? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:11, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I would have personally appreciated it if you had engaged with the question I asked, or at least engage with whether you think it is accurate to say an episode in Super Mario Sunshine is essentially one of its "chapters." That was the point I was trying to make.
I am hardly familiar with any independent sources that discuss missions at all, let along put quotation marks around their names when they show up in a sentence, and I hope it is apparent from the articles I contribute to the most that I do exercise that diligence. (There may be sources that chronicle RPG titles like Final Fantasy where certain scenarios or chapters in the games have quotation marks around them, iirc, but platformers are typically not discussed with the same rigor because most of them have weaker narrative elements.) When compared to literature, film, and music, video games are a younger medium that is still not chronicled or discussed with the same care in academic or archival projects, which is where precedents for this type of thing would be set. They are still viewed as products first and creative works second in many circles. Consequently, for all intents and purposes, the people who want granular information on the Super Mario series are likely to come to the Super Mario Wiki before anywhere else, and I do not see that changing in the near or distant future. We would very much be the ones establishing this precedent. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I think the reason we italicise game titles is because of it being a standard in other sources, which putting quotes around mission names is not, regardless of the reason for that. I don't see why it should be our job to set this precedent. Following established practice is very different to inventing it. And I don't agree that missions are equivalent to chapters because I feel like missions in Mario games are often more equivalent to levels in other Mario games, which I certainly do not want us to be putting quotes around. Like Salmancer argued in their vote, the idea that missions have more narrative content than levels is not always accurate (and I don't see why narrative content should be a decider anyway in a franchise that is not primarily focused on narrative). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I do not want to set it because it is "our job." I want to set it because I think it is a beneficial tool. It is also not some sort of value judgement like Salmancer suggested. It is acknowledging that the Bob-omb Battlefield and "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" are not equivalencies within the game they occur in: the former is a level, whereas the latter is a scenario within the level. They are not the same thing. Bowser Jr. Showdown, regardless of how it was localized in English, is the name of a unique level. A location. It is within a greater region (a world), but that is exactly like World 1-1 or Vanilla Secret 2. When you access "Footrace with Koopa the Quick," you are accessing the same level as "Big Bob-omb on the Summit," so it is not the equivalency to something like Bowser Jr. Showdown and is exactly why I made the disclaimer I did in the proposal about level names. The lack of quotation marks does not mean Bowser Jr. Showdown is devoid of any narrative context, just that it is a level only. If there were different discrete scenarios like missions within Bowser Jr. Showdown that had names, that would be another matter. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:14, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I don't see how it being a "scenario" (which is already a pretty loose distinction imo) should mean it gets quotation marks if that isn't a standard. In the same way levels and missions aren't equivalent subjects, nor are levels and worlds, or levels and items, or levels and characters. Deciding that this particular distinction can't just be gleaned from context like all those others can and instead needs us to invent an extra indicator feels arbitrary to me. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:27, January 8, 2025 (EST)
It is not that readers, necessarily, will believe that the quotation marks are actually present around things they are not. It is that, if the reader had any desire to see if quotation marks surrounded something, they could not get this information from us except from marginal implicities that are basically by accident. By contrast, whether or not a name is a location or a mission is extremely easy information to obtain on this wiki without quotation marks — readers can simply click on the link and find out at the very top of that subject's article what it is. I've never spoken to a person who's run into the issue of confusing episode and level names, but even if they weren't equally unsubstantiated, why should we obfuscate information to cater to them when they are five seconds away from solving their problem? Ahemtoday (talk) 21:55, January 8, 2025 (EST)

@Hewer I think you have misunderstood the proposal. I did not argue this was common practice or had precedent. My argument is that quotation marks often convey the type of subject and that it is part of a greater whole. Missions are narrative scenarios within a larger creative work, just like episodes in a television show, scenes in a film (which also get placed within quotation marks when titled), and named book chapters. I think that is intuitive. They are ontologically all the same thing in different media and — like them — they inherit the same benefits from quotation marks. They passively relay the same info: that this is a scenario within a creative work as opposed to, say, a location within a creative work. — Nintendo101 (talk) 04:54, January 8, 2025 (EST)

I understand you weren't arguing that this had precedent, my point is that that was an argument for the opposition in the music proposal that I don't think can be applied here, thus I think the case for quotes around missions is weaker than that for quotes around music. Quotation marks only help to indicate what type of subject it is if the reader is already aware that that is what they are meant to indicate, which they aren't as likely to be for mission titles due to it not being a common practice (and again, it doesn't match how the games themselves do it, so I think it would probably add more confusion, not reduce it). The quotation marks around "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" don't indicate it being a mission any more than it being a song. I also personally don't think the distinction between levels and missions, especially in Mario games, is that significant. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
The intent is to clarify that "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" is a scenario in a place, whereas Bob-omb Battlefield is the place. I have found this very helpful in the articles I have contributed to. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)

I argue "death of the author". People will read this as "we're putting quotation marks around missions and not levels because missions are more like television episodes than levels are". This will happen because levels in 2D Super Mario games and missions in 3D Super Mario games are more or less equivalent; the concept of "place" vs "event in place" is wibbly-wobbly in video game land unless the option of replaying them with the same save file is cut off, and this proposal is putting one set of "events in places" over the other. I read the entire proposal and came to that exact conclusion. And to the theoretical confusion of "3D platformer level" to "mission", what of "2D platformer world" to "level"? What makes declaring Footrace with Koopa the Quick to be a part of Bob-omb Battlefield but not of the same type as Bob-omb Battlefield any more important than declaring Bowser Jr. Showdown is part of Meringue Clouds but not of the same type as Meringue Clouds? This has to be done for both kinds of relationships. This, of course, is relevant because Worlds in New Super Mario Bros. games started to include interactive elements that work based on how they do in the levels, and I think this proposal is targeted at prose for such interactive elements in their articles, like explaining where and when things appear. Sure, this makes something like Cosmic block's first sentence in it's Super Mario Galaxy section marginally clearer if someone has already read the Manual of Style, but why shouldn't Spine Coasters get this treatment when they appear in Thrilling Spine Coaster and in Rock-Candy Mines? Salmancer (talk) 23:19, January 8, 2025 (EST)

I don't think "death of the author" applies here because the distinction of mission vs. level is informed by the game itself, not by what the creators of the game say it should be.
The reason why Bob-omb Battlefield isn't the equivalent of a world is because the first floor in Super Mario 64 is the world, and this is part of how the game is physically organized. You only gain access to another floor if you clear the first Bowser course of the first floor. The only games with missions that don't have worlds for their levels are Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Odyssey. The other three do: Super Mario 64 has there levels broken up into floors; Super Mario Galaxy has domes; and Super Mario Galaxy 2 has what are literally called Worlds. So if the the equivalency of the Terrace in New Super Mario Bros. U is Acorn Plains, and the equivalency of Good Egg Galaxy is Acorn Plains Way, than what is the equivalency of "A Snack of Cosmic Proportions?" The answer is there is none, because Acorn Plains Way doesn't have any episodes. - Nintendo101 (talk) 00:07, January 9, 2025 (EST)

@EvieMaybe, I restricted this proposal to what I am familiar with, which are the 3D Super Mario platformers. I do not have the knowledge or expertise to extend this proposal to Wario: Master of Disguise or Mario & Luigi: Brothership. I am only interested in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, and Super Mario Odyssey. I do not offhand think isolated Power Moons should be impacted by this proposal. - Nintendo101 (talk) 00:13, January 9, 2025 (EST)

New features

Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page

This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more Super Mario games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for Mario, Bowser, and many other recurring subjects.

Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.

For example, let's say for Luigi in his appearance in Mario Sports Superstars, there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:

For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see here.

The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.
  2. Hewer (talk) I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.
  3. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per all.

Oppose

  1. Mario (talk) Doesn't seem necessary. Just a thought: should we also link to parts of character galleries for every game section?

Comments

@Hewer I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)

If I understood this correctly, would this proposal add a disclaimer to every sigle game in a character's History section if the character has a corresponding profile and/or statistics section for that game? That's basically 20+ disclaimers on almost every game in Luigi's History page, is that correct? — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 09:41, January 1, 2025 (EST)

I don't really see the problem if it's helpful, relevant links that aren't very intrusive anyway. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:08, January 2, 2025 (EST)

@Mario: I don't think the gallery comparison works. Galleries aren't split up into subsections for individual games in the same way as profiles and statistics pages, so it can't really be done the same way. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:16, January 3, 2025 (EST)

Removals

Delete Alternative Proto Piranha Images

This concerns these two image files, which are as of present unused.

The main argument is that not only are these two images taken using a hacked version of the game, but that they aren't actually even intended in the first place; while we don't know much about how Sunshine works under the hood, the leading theory is that the object for the Proto Piranha simply borrows the texture of whatever Goop is currently loaded. Given the resulting Proto Piranha inherits no other attributes of the goop aside from visuals, this definitely tracks. In addition, attempts to add these to TCRF were removed not once, but twice. Given these images have been languishing for a long while with no real use, it seems more-or-less fine to remove them to us.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Delete

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Given the lack of any glitches to even spawn a Proto Piranha in these areas, the dubious origin of the images themselves, and the fact that calling them "unused content" is a bit of a misnomer, we don't see any particular reason to keep these around--even the "the goop reflects the area it's loaded in" is already thoroughly demonstrated thanks to the images of the Proto Piranha as it already appears, in vanilla, in Delfino Airstrip and both Bianco Square and Bianco Hills. This, to us, would be like listing the thing where if you hack a Yoshi into a Castle stage in Super Mario World its head becomes a Lava Bubble as "unused content" for that game.
  2. Tails777 (talk) I'm leaning towards this. I feel this would be different if there was a video showcasing what happens when you insert a Proto Piranha in a place it otherwise doesn't spawn in, mostly because it's not uncommon for us to cover possibilities only possible through hacks. If we had a bit more to back it all up, that's be fine, but images without anything else doesn't really prove a lot. At best, this is like a small trivia point for Proto Piranhas, not unused content. They still look cool though..
  3. Jdtendo (talk) If it was not intended, then it is not unused content.
  4. Ray Trace (talk) The only thing that really kept me from nuking these images outright is because of lack of info and I'm glad that's cleared up in this proposal. Kill these.
  5. Technetium (talk) Here Ray Trace, you can borrow my FLUDD. Per all.
  6. Sparks (talk) Wash 'em away!

Keep

Comments (delete alternative proto piranha images)

i can see a case for keeping them around to illustrate how proto piranha's goo change isn't hardcoded, but i agree with the idea that a video might be better. i'll abstain for now. eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 09:57, January 4, 2025 (EST)

Delete the MP11/MP12/MP13 redirects

The existence of these was brought to our attention thanks to a redirect called Mario Party 13 (as of proposal, this leads to Super Mario Party Jamboree, which is already marked for deletion. This concerns both that redirect, as well as MP11, MP12, and MP13.

Simply put, these redirects seem to be entirely based on rather uncommon fan nicknames for Super Mario Party, Mario Party Superstars, and Super Mario Party Jamboree. We can't find any sources that call these games Mario Parties 11, 12, or 13. Random flavor text notes that Super Mario Party is "the 11th party", but that's as close as you get. And unlike, say, our similarly deprecated "God Slayer Bowser" redirect, we don't even think there's any particular confusion that those are the respective names of the games. Given the unofficial origins of these nicknames, as well as the fact they seem to not even be that used, we don't see any harm in getting rid of these.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: January 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Delete (party's over!)

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Fairly self-explanatory; unofficial title? That's a paddlin'. Unofficial title that doesn't even seem to be that widely used? That's a paddlin'.
  2. Jdtendo (talk) Does anyone actually call those games Mario Party 11, 12 or 13? Per proposal.

Keep (party on!)

Comments (idle party chat)

I do think fan nicknames can be allowed as redirects, so I'd vote to keep Mario Party 11 (because of the "eleventh party" mention in the game) but delete the other two (because then it starts getting ambiguous as to what counts). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 07:45, January 9, 2025 (EST)

Changes

Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"

There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?

Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.

This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.

Proposer: Mario (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Blank support

  1. Mario (talk) Per all.
  2. Ray Trace (talk) Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
  3. PopitTart (talk) (This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)
  4. Altendo (talk) (Look at the code for my reasoning)
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk)
  6. OmegaRuby (talk) While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really are just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at all. (Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)
  7. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
  8. TheDarkStar (talk) - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
  9. Ninja Squid (talk) Per proposal.
  10. Tails777 (talk) It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.
  11. RetroNintendo2008 (talk)
  12. Fun With Despair (talk) I am arguably in agreement with some of the opposition who argue that even "per all" should go in favor of each voter making an argument or explaining themselves, but if "per all" stays, then I don't really have a problem with allowing blank votes as well. I would prefer a proposal on getting rid of "per all" overall as its a bit of a lazy cop-out (at least name a specific guy you agree with), but a blank vote ultimate just means they agree with the OP's point and chose to vote with them - and I don't have a problem with that.

Blank Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
  2. Technetium (talk) I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone does provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type two words.
  5. Jdtendo (talk) Per all (is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)
  6. Axii (talk) Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
  7. Pseudo (talk) Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
  8. Hooded Pitohui (talk) I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides some insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
  9. Mister Wu (talk) Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
  10. DesaMatt (talk) Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.
  11. Blinker (talk) Per Technetium, Ahemtoday, Axii and Mister Wu.

Blank Comments

I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)

I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
@Mario I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. Super Mario RPG (talk) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)
In my opinion, saying "per OP" or "per (insert user here) is just as much effort as saying "per all" and at least demonstrates a modicum of original thought. I think that a blank vote is essentially the same as just voicing that you agree with the OP, so I did vote for that option in this case - but I think per all does an equally poor job to a blank vote at explaining what you think. At least requiring specific users to be hit with the "per" when voting would give far more of a baseline than "per all". That's not really what this proposal is about though, so I won't dwell on it. --Fun With Despair (talk) 00:22, January 2, 2025 (EST)

Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)

Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. Technetium (talk) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring a written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. Salmancer (talk) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)

Do not treat one-time Super Mario RPG names as recurring names

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on January 10 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

This proposal is mainly aimed at Mini Goomba and Lava Bubble, though there may be others in this regard that I'm not aware of. Both of these enemies had names that were only used for the original version (Goombette and Sparky respectively) but we continue to use these names for the enemies for other appearances where no name is given for them until an appearance which they do e.g calling Lava Bubbles "Sparkies" in regards to Super Mario 64. Considering this is a game which had some questionable translations and the game's remake used properly translated names, I think we should only use these names in regards to the original Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars and instead use whichever name had been used beforehand for later appearances.

Proposer: Nightwicked Bowser (talk)
Deadline: January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support (Super Mario RPG names)

  1. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per proposal
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) We shouldn't be treating a one-off oddball localization job as earnest renames.
  3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  4. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  5. Hewer (talk) Yeah I always thought this was a bit dumb, this is definitely a case where a bit of discretion is necessary. Per all.
  6. Jdtendo (talk) Per Sky Troopas, Spookums, and Shy Aways.
  7. OmegaRuby RPG: Legend of the Dragon Balls (talk) Per all.
  8. Pseudo (talk) Per all.
  9. Blinker (talk) THANK YOU. I remember years ago reading the Super Mario 64 section on Lava Bubble and thinking that was an actual name they were called in that game. It doesn't help that history sections are often not completely in chronological order.
  10. LeftyGreenMario (talk) It's quite a marvel to see how thorough of a negative impact these names have on the wiki.
  11. EvieMaybe (talk) per WT
  12. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per Neosquid.
  13. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Goby.

Nintendo101 RPG: Legend of the Silver Frogs (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose (Super Mario RPG names)

  1. LinkTheLefty (talk) I feel a ditty coming on, about a few things from NoA in the 90's. Peeeeeeer... The Big Boo, Bub, spiny bomb, Piranha Flower, Whomp Block, Flying Goomba... Koopa Para Troopa, Para-Koopa, Winged/Flying Koopa Troopa... Flopsy Fish, Piscatory Pete, Beach Koopa, Swoop(er), Mini-Ninja, where's Needle's nose... Piro Dangle, Red Blargg, Shark Chomp, Green/Solo Toady, Wild Piranha... Mace Penguin, Gabon, Grand Goomba, Hootie is Not a Fish... Oh yeah, Chubby, weight (I'm a waiter?), Podoboo, Spark Spook...*wew*...Little Yoshi, Mini-Yoshi, Mini Yoshi, Submarine Nep-Enut, Blue Boo, Big Blue Boo... Little Goomba, (Para-)Goomba, a Pirhana Plant! Why's Froggy so froggy? And now that you've sang alooooooong, you know Square really did no wrooooooong♪

Comments (Super Mario RPG names)

There are a few instances in which recurring names are listed for other one-off games, like Spark Spooks from Yoshi's Story, if information serves correct. Perhaps the maintenance done if this proposal passes could be extended to instances from games other than Super Mario RPG? Small Luigi doing the V-sign in the Super Mario All-Stars remaster of Super Mario Bros. OmegaRuby [ Talk / Contribs ] 08:32, January 3, 2025 (EST)

I actually disagree with pointing fingers at the original game while NOA in general was still clearly figuring things out as they were going along (Lava Bubble isn't the greatest example since Podoboo lasted for quite a while). Maybe rephrase this as "names that were changed in the remake" because that's what this proposal is really targeting. I have a separate idea on how to handle unchanged one-offs like Yo'ster Isle that might conflict with another proposal I had in mind. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, the Yo'ster Isle example should already be dealt with by this proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)

Actually, this has been on my mind even long before the remake came out so I won't be rephrasing the proposal. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 15:08, January 3, 2025 (EST)
The remake is handing you something quantifiable to work with on a silver platter besides "translation bad." Why not? LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)
Because it's my proposal and I'll phrase it how I see it. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 15:17, January 3, 2025 (EST)
You'd get the same overall effect but with a better precedent behind it is my point. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:24, January 3, 2025 (EST)
I don't see how the Podoboo -> Lava Bubble rename affects this in any meaningful way? Blinker (talk) 15:41, January 3, 2025 (EST)
Lava Bubble didn't appear in a manual or game yet, so by present rules, this passing would result in swapping Sparky with Podoboo in Super Mario 64 (released a mere 3~4 months apart) - one non-current name for another. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:47, January 3, 2025 (EST)
That is my exact intent here. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 15:49, January 3, 2025 (EST)
This reminds me that my original idea was to use the term "Bubble" for Super Mario 64, given the peculiarities, albeit still covering it in the Lava Bubble article. That would just leave resized Goomba, as mentioned below. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:46, January 4, 2025 (EST)
"Lava Bubble" is employed in Mario Mania, and while I understand this is a lower-priority source since instruction booklets are physically packaged with the games, I do personally hold that at equal value since Mario Mania is a guidebook for Super Mario World written by Nintendo of America, who also translated and wrote the instruction booklet. (I don't know if NoA has ever felt inclined to specify this anywhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if the guidebook and instruction booklet even involve the same individual staff members.) I understand how it is intuitively confusing to see how an enemy called "Lava Bubble" in the Super Mario World section of its own article suddenly be called "Sparky" in the Super Mario 64 section (which, technically, it is not called anywhere at all in the English material for that game), only for it to be called "Lava Bubble" again in the next immediate section. So I understand the appeal.
This is tangential, but personally, I am not even really certain the "Lava Bubble" in Super Mario 64 is supposed to be the recurring enemy we see elsewhere since it looks like an ambient plume of fire, and we only refer to it as a "Lava Bubble" because the internal filename for this thing is "BUBBLE." I dunno if that literally means it is intended to be the same subject. If it really is the same subject, I know the Japanese name for Lethal Lava Land is ファイアバブル ランド (Faia Baburu Rando, Fire Bubble Land). Is the land named after the enemy? Because if that is the case, maybe it would be more accurate to refer to Lava Bubbles as "Lethal Lavas" in Super Mario 64-related portions of the wiki, not "Sparkies." - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:09, January 3, 2025 (EST)
Responding to your tangent, as mentioned in the Lava Bubble article, the enemy's design in 64 DS was reused in New Super Mario Bros., which further indicates that, at least in the remake, those are intended to be Lava Bubbles. Blinker (talk) 16:28, January 3, 2025 (EST)
If memory serves, there's no real name for the object designated as "BUBBLE" in any material (or at least, nothing jumped out to me). For whatever reason, it's harder to find than Keronpa Ball, having completely fallen by the wayside. Having said that, I think a reasonable conclusion has been drawn in the absence of anything better to go off on. Doc added the part about the course name, I think. But - since this proposal is mainly eyeing Lava Bubble and Mini Goomba - I should mention that Mini Goomba is another can of worms. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:36, January 3, 2025 (EST)
@Nintendo101 - Not until we start listing the Magikoopa species in SMRPG as "Merlins." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:22, January 5, 2025 (EST)
@Doc von Schmeltwick is that the same situation? "Lethal Lava Land" is the name of the level... in the game as it was released. The average player is shown this name. "Merlin" is just in the codes and not nakedly presented to the player. - Nintendo101 (talk) 12:49, January 6, 2025 (EST)

Organize "List of implied" articles

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on January 12 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

Here's one of those "two related proposals in one with a YY-YN-NY-NN support scheme" proposals, concerning the following articles:

Right now, each of these is sorted purely alphabetically, with no regards for where or when they were implied to exist. The closest thing to an attempt at organization is Locations dividing between fictional and real locations, which also happens to expose a flaw with this particular article: nearly all the implied locations are there simply because they're mentioned on the Globulator, with no other substance to their entry. All of these cities are already listed on the Globulator article anyways.

There are other changes I'd like to propose for some particular articles, but for now, let's leave it at these two:

  • Reorganize: Sort each article chronologically like your average History section, divided by series and then by game. This should help lump, say, all the Marvelous Compass locations in one place, or all the celebrities namedropped in the Super Show.
  • Deglobulize: Remove all real world locations from List of implied locations that are there exclusively because they're mentioned in the Globulator. This would exclude entries like Brazil, who have more to discuss than merely being acknowledged. I consider Locations the article on this list that needs the most trimming, so if this half of the proposal doesn't pass, I won't bother making follow-up articles for trimming the rest.

Proposer: EvieMaybe (talk)
Deadline: January 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Both reorganize and deglobulize

  1. EvieMaybe (talk) primary choice.
  2. LadySophie17 (talk) Seems reasonable. I never liked how confusing these pages are.
  3. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
  4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
  5. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  6. Technetium (talk) Hmm what's the Globulator? *checks page* Oh. Oh god. Yeah that's a per proposal if I've ever seen one.
  7. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer and Technetium.
  8. Camwoodstock (talk) Yipe. We knew the Globulator was causing issues, but we didn't expect them to be... That. And, of course, re-orgnaizing the remainder is fine.
  9. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.

Only reorganize

  1. EvieMaybe (talk) secondary choice.

Only deglobulize

Do not reorganize nor deglobulize (do nothing)

List of implied comments

If deglobulize wins, I think a disclaimer should be added to the list of implied locations (either at the top of the article or the top of the "Real locations" section) explaining that the Globulator doesn't count. Also, if reorganize wins, does the location list keep its "Super Mario franchise locations" and "Real locations" sections? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:05, January 5, 2025 (EST)

that first one is a good idea, def should be implemented. i want to say yes for the second one, but i think it depends on what the article ends up looking like when reorganized. eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 16:08, January 5, 2025 (EST)

Simplify "wikitable dk"

This is proposing to slightly simplify the "wikitable dk" class into something that both maintains the elements of a wikitable (such as the gray border and blank background) while maintaining the Donkey Kong theme. Since the current one isn't the most comfortable to read (at least for me), I've thought of a middle ground that I think ultimately looks nicer and feels more consistent with the site design and wikitables in general, so if this proposal passes, the "wikitable dk" style would look like the following:

Image Name Amount
An Awk Awk 16
Frogoon Frogoon 3
A Tiki Goon Tiki Goon 4
Close-up of a Screaming Pillar Screaming Pillar 4
Rawk.png Rawk 3

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per

Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - The proposed "solution" to the alleged "issue" just looks ugly to me.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) I think the way they look now is serviceable enough as long as it remains easy to for other users to edit. It does the passive job of communicating to the reader that they are reading a Donkey Kong article. I'm not opposed to revisions though - maybe things can be further simplified - I just think the one recommended in this proposal is a little too simple though.
  3. GuntherBayBeee (talk) I tell you what.
  4. Lakituthequick (talk) While the existing table style is not winning any prizes, getting rid of colours is not something I support. In fact, if standardised to an extend, I would actually support a bit more colour, especially since the last table proposal.
  5. Fun With Despair (talk) Honestly, I just think it looks fine as-is. Several professional spreadsheets such as schedules I have worked on also alternate the tones of their rows - it's just easier on the eyes.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) Alternating colors are a thing on many, many tables--usually, very large ones, like spreadsheets. While the current one is, admittedly, a tad gaudy, it's perfectly clear and readable.
  7. Ray Trace (talk) Per all, especially Lakituthequick

Comments

why not use a brown heading with white text? eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)

@EvieMaybe Do you or @Doc von Schmeltwick have a suggestion which shade of brown can be used? I stated in the proposal that I'm open for suggestions of a better color to use. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)
I think it looks just fine as-is... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:20, January 7, 2025 (EST)
It's not the most accessible in my opinion, and it doesn't match the simple aesthetic of this website. It would also fall in line with the precedent set to use simpler table styles. This is the only style with that inconsistency. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:22, January 7, 2025 (EST)
@EvieMaybe Okay, so I think I found a shade of brown that works well while still actually making it look like an actual wikitable, so I've altered the wikitable style accordingly. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:24, January 7, 2025 (EST)
you sure about the colored rows? it doesn't really match the rest of the wiki's style. the darker brown on the top looks pretty good, though. eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 18:27, January 7, 2025 (EST)
Nintendo101 said it looked a bit too simplified, so I added the colors myself. Do you have a different idea for row colors? Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:31, January 7, 2025 (EST)

@Nintendo101 Want to draft up something that would look less simplified so I can get an idea of what you're stating? Wait, I think I found something. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:12, January 7, 2025 (EST)

For what it's worth, I have been sitting on a proposal for more colourful table styles since the last Grand Table Proposal™, but still need to actually, like, write and post it. As I said in that one, I am not against getting rid of colour, that would only serve to make things more boring.
I do not actually know how things work when proposals with directly relating goals are posted at the same time, so I will refrain from posting mine until at least after this one settles. Lakituthequick.png Lakituthequick 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I was thinking of doing that as well, though I never really had a solid plan. My only idea was to tie it into a similar system on the wiki and use the same coloration guides as navboxes for tables. Ahemtoday (talk) 21:59, January 8, 2025 (EST)

Miscellaneous

Normalise splitting long References to/in other media sections

Last year, I successfully proposed that the References to other media section on The Super Mario Bros. Movie article should be split into its own article due to its length, with the same later occurring for the References in later games section on Super Mario Bros. On the TPP for splitting the latter section, the user EvieMaybe supported saying "i wonder what'll be the next game to require this". That got me to realise that other articles with these sections are of similar length, and suffer the same problems that I originally pointed out in those past proposals. Select examples that I've been able to find include the following:

Again, these are just examples. There's probably more out there that are equally as long. If this proposal were to achieve support, there would have to be some sort of guideline (similar to splitting galleries) relating to a certain limit at which the section is split, possibly a maximum of 20-30 bullet points or certain number of bytes before splitting, as the sections I've cited as examples go over said amount of bullet points. Normalising this would also prevent anyone from having to make separate TPPs to suggest splitting each and every long section separately, and would also help create some consistency, as it doesn't make much sense for only a few select references to/in other media sections to be split rather than more.

Proposer: RetroNintendo2008 (talk)
Deadline: January 18, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. RetroNintendo2008 (talk) Per all.

EvieMaybe (talk) look ma, i'm on tv! yeah, this seems like a very reasonable thing to do

Oppose

  1. Waluigi Time (talk) I support in principle, but I'm against the proposed implementation here. We already have MarioWiki:Article size for determining what to do when pages get too long, so what I would like to see is simply considering references sections as things that can get split off when that happens. Of the pages linked in this proposal, SMB2 and 3 don't even meet the minimum byte count for a split (SMB2 falls especially short at ~85k bytes). SMB didn't meet those criteria before the proposal either and I think that should be reversed. These lists aren't that long all things considered and they're kept pretty low on the page so I don't think their presence is necessarily intrusive.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Waluigi Time; we already have policies for this, and we see no need to carve out any exceptions for the references section just yet.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Per Waluigi Time. A good idea in principal, but only if warranted on a case-by-case basis. I generally do not like splitting up pages unless necessary.
  4. EvieMaybe (talk) per Waluigi Time, i hadn't considered that. i hope that if this proposal ends with Oppose bc of everyone backing WT, we still remember that we can split reference sections to trim article size
  5. Technetium (talk) Per Waluigi Time.

Comments

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