MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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{{MarioWiki:Proposals/Header}}
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==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
 
==New features==
''None at the moment.''
 
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''
 
==Changes==
===Include italics for category page titles for media that normally uses it===
Shouldn't category pages for media that uses italics (such as games, shows, movies, etc.) use italics for their category pages? I did start adding it to some pages already, but I thought it was worth proposing about it, possibly to make it policy. I feel like italics should be used though, as it is used everywhere else. For example, the page titled [[:Category:Donkey Kong 64]] should be [[:Category:Donkey Kong 64|Category:''Donkey Kong 64'']].
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Kaptain Skurvy}}<br>'''Deadline''': <s>February 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to February 27, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Wait, this isn't already policy??? We think this lack of parity speaks a lot to how neglected categories can be in some regards. While yes, the category description isn't really meant to be the main point, we don't think ''slightly slanted text'' is distracting from the actual list of articles in the category, and just because categories are more utility than text doesn't excuse the text that ''is'' there looking below the standard of a usual article for being "lesser".
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Nothing wrong with having more consistency around the wiki.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.
#{{User|Salmancer}} It is easier to figure out what the standards are from context alone when the standards are applied in every instance.
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Categories are supposed to provide simple, direct, and utilitarian functions, not something to be read or presented to readers. I don't think italicizing them is necessary and would detract from their simplicity.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Nintendo101. It doesn't feel necessary.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} What is this supposed to change, exactly? Yes, it's in line with how pages about games are to have the subject italicized, but the change feels unneeded and especially arduous to implement for pretty much no reason. Per Nintendo101.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Nintendo101
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
 
====Comments====
@Nintendo101: In that case, why do we italicise game titles in category descriptions? (Genuine question, I'm undecided on this proposal.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:58, February 7, 2025 (EST)
:Because that is a proper sentence. It is not the tool itself. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:15, February 7, 2025 (EST)
::We mean... Wiki policy is to italicize game titles on their articles' names using <nowiki>{{Italic title}}</nowiki>, too, and those aren't proper sentences. They're article names. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:00, February 8, 2025 (EST)
:::That's not the same situation in my eyes because the articles are what the site is for. That is what we are writing and presenting to the public. Of course we would italicize those. The categories are a tool, chiefly for site editors, not readers. We do not really gain anything from italicizing their titles. If anything, I worry this would lead to a lot of work to implement, either burdening site editors, porplemontage, or both. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:05, February 9, 2025 (EST)
::::So category names are just tools not meant for readers, but category descriptions aren't? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:08, February 9, 2025 (EST)
:::::The descriptions are just sentences, and I feel inclined to render those they way we would a sentence anywhere else on the site, be it on articles or in the description for image files. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)
::::We disagree with the notion categories are more for editors and not readers; while yes, all of the categories on the front page are maintenance categories from the to-do list, the sheer quantity of proposals for categories wouldn't make sense if they were moreso for editors, rather than your average reader; moves such as the reforms for the Look-alikes categories or the Thieves category wouldn't make sense if these weren't meant to be public-facing. And of course, there are the various categories that exist for users, but do ''not'' serve a utility purpose, such as the [[:Category:User es|various "users that know a given language" categories]].<br>As for difficulty implementing, considering the recent success stories with images without descriptions and categories without descriptions having gone from 4000+ and ≈100, to 0 and 0 respectively, we have it in good faith that this wouldn't be ''that'' hard to implement. Monotonous? Yes. But difficult? It's nothing a bit of caffeine and music can't solve. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:22, February 9, 2025 (EST)
:::::Not only for editors, but chiefly for them. I don't exclude the idea of more curious readers utilizing them, but I suspect they are exceptions. I maintain that their ease of implementation is more important to the site than the formatting inconsistency. Like, are we to be expected to format category ourselves as "<nowiki>[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots|Category:''Super Mario World'' screenshots]]</nowiki>" instead of just "<nowiki>[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots]]</nowiki>" going forward? Would we do this for the articles that are in dozens of categories? Why? I would not want to do that, and I don't find the inconsistency a good enough reason to roll something like that out, and only brings downsides. It makes the tool where one types "<nowiki>[[Category:</nowiki>" almost entirely moot because we would still need to write out the whole name just to format it this way. Others are welcomed to think differently, but I personally think the way we format these names now in categories is perfectly fine. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)
even if this proposal doesn't pass, i think we should use [[Template:Italic title]] in the category pages. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 10:16, February 12, 2025 (EST)
:I thought that was the whole proposal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:32, February 13, 2025 (EST)
::@Kaptain Skurvy: Could you please clarify whether the proposal's goal is simply to add italic title to categories, or to also do something else as well? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:14, February 17, 2025 (EST)


===List of ongoing talk page proposals===
===Change "(game)" identifier to "(arcade)" on the articles of ''[[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]]'', ''[[Donkey Kong Jr. (game)|Donkey Kong Jr.]]'' and ''[[Mario Bros. (game)|Mario Bros.]]''===
''None at the moment''
I wouldn't consider "game" to be the best identifier for the arcade games ''Donkey Kong'', ''Donkey Kong Jr.'' and ''Mario Bros''. There's already a [[Donkey Kong (Game & Watch)|Game]] [[Donkey Kong Jr. (Game & Watch)|and]] [[Mario Bros. (Game & Watch)|Watch]] game that shares its title with each of the arcade games, but "''Donkey Kong''" is the name of various other games too! There's [[Donkey Kong (tabletop arcade game)|the tabletop game]], [[Donkey Kong (Game Boy)|the Game Boy game]], [[Donkey Kong (Nelsonic Game Watch)|the Nelsonic Game Watch game]] and [[Donkey Kong (slot machine)|the slot machine]]. I know the slot machine is technically an arcade game, but it's not a standard cabinet like the 1981 arcade game. "Game" is a broad identifier, especially for ''Donkey Kong''. Shouldn't a "game" identifier only be used if there's no other game with the same name? That's why we use consoles for identifiers instead, such as [[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (Wii)|''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games'' (Wii)]] and [[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (Nintendo DS)|''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games'' (Nintendo DS)]].


==Unimplemented proposals==
'''Proposer''': {{User|Kaptain Skurvy}}<br>'''Deadline''': February 22, 2025, 23:59 GMT
{| class=sortable align=center width=100% cellspacing=0 border=1 cellpadding=3 style="text-align:center; border-collapse:collapse; font-family:Arial;"
|-
!width="3%"|#
!width="65%"|Proposal
!width="18%"|User
!width="14%"|Date
|-
|1
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 52#Change the way that recurring Mario & Sonic events are handled, round 2|Decide how to cover recurring events in the ''Mario & Sonic'' series]]
|{{User|BBQ Turtle}}
|July 17, 2018
|-
|2
|align=left|[[Talk:Note Block#Split into Note Block, Jump Block (New Super Mario Bros. Wii) and Jump Block (Mario & Wario)|Split Jump Block (''Mario & Wario'') from Note Block]]
|{{User|Alternis}}
|July 21, 2019
|-
|3
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 54#Reorganize and split Gallery:Toys and other Merchandise galleries|Reorganize and split Gallery:Toys and other Merchandise galleries]]
|{{User|Results May Vary}}
|July 30, 2019
|-
|4
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 54#Split all multi-items in the Mario Kart series|Split all multi-items in the ''Mario Kart'' series]]
|{{User|Archivist Toadette}}
|October 12, 2019
|-
|5
|align=left|[[Talk:Construction Zone#Merge with the Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis page|Include information on Construction Zone for the rest of the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' series]]
|{{User|Koopa con Carne}}
|November 24, 2019
|-
|6
|align=left|[[Talk:Somersault#Merge Backflip here or split backwards somersault info and merge that to backflip|Split backwards somersault info and merge it to Backflip]]
|{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}
|February 26, 2020
|-
|7
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Create a "character/species" infobox|Create a "character/species" infobox]]
|{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}
|April 16, 2020
|-
|8
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Split the Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Paper Mario: Color Splash attacks|Split the attacks from ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'' and ''Paper Mario: Color Splash'']]
|{{User|Scrooge200}}
|July 4, 2020
|-
|9
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Merge Game Boy Donkey Kong enemy variations / Split Wario World enemy variations|Split the enemy variants from ''Wario World'']]
|{{User|Koopa con Carne}}
|July 11, 2020
|-
|10
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Split the Super Mario RPG item lists|Split the item lists from ''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'']]
|{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}
|July 12, 2020
|-
|11
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#definitions of undead and deceased|Clean up Category:Undead and Category:Deceased]]
|{{User|Pokemon}}
|August 6, 2020
|-
|12
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 56#Upload images from the base game along with remakes|Reorganize images in levelboxes pertaining to games with remakes, remasters, etc.]]
|{{User|DarkNight}}
|September 30, 2020
|-
|13
|align=left|[[Talk:Mario Kart Tour#Decide on the terminology to define tiers|Decide on the terminology to define tiers in ''Mario Kart Tour'']]
|{{User|Koopa con Carne}}
|October 19, 2020
|-
|14
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 56#Super Mario Sunshine Minor Locations|Create articles for minor locations in ''Super Mario Sunshine'']]
|{{User|The Mansion}}
|October 30, 2020
|-
|15
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 56#Decide where to cover Cheese the Chao|Create an article for Cheese the Chao]]
|{{User|BBQ Turtle}}
|November 25, 2020
|-
|16
|align=left|[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 56#Decide where to cover Froggy|Create an article for Froggy]]
|{{User|BBQ Turtle}}
|November 25, 2020
|}


==Writing guidelines==
====Support====
===Italics formatting of boat names, fictional products, and others===
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Per proposal.
A disagreement between {{User|LinkTheLefty}} and me has started in [[Talk:The Princess Peach]], a talk page concerning a ship (not the princess herself!) in ''[[Paper Mario: The Origami King]]''. I and others advocated italicizing the name of the ship as [https://style.mla.org/format-the-name-of-a-ship/ it is consistent with MLA standards].
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Those articles also cover the game's release on Famicom, NES, Atari, etc., so "arcade" would not be a holistically accurate identifier.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Nintendo101; "arcade" is kind of a misnomer when the non-arcade ports are covered on them.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Nintendo101.
#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per ThePowerPlayer's comment.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all
 
====Comments====
Maybe "arcade game" would be a decent compromise? [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 18:02, February 8, 2025 (EST)
 
What about [[Dr. Mario (game)|''Dr. Mario'']]? That game also has a [[Dr. Mario (Gamewatch Boy)|separate release also called ''Dr. Mario'']].--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:24, February 8, 2025 (EST)
::The reason why the games ''Donkey Kong'' and ''Dr. Mario'' should keep their identifier of "(game)" is because those are by far the most popular and commonly thought-of games under their respective titles; the other articles (aside from ''Donkey Kong'' on the Game Boy) are on much more obscure devices while being clearly separate from the original game. To put it another way, "''Dr. Mario'' (game)" is what people are looking for when they think about "the game featuring Dr. Mario"; meanwhile, you'd be forgiven for not knowing that the Gamewatch Boy game even exists at all. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 22:15, February 8, 2025 (EST)
 
what about Donkey Kong (1981)? {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 18:39, February 9, 2025 (EST)
:That would work for ''Donkey Kong'', but the original ''Mario Bros.'' and the arcade game of the same title were both released in 1983. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:49, February 12, 2025 (EST)
 
===Standardize the use of "English", "English (United States)" and/or "English (United Kingdom)" as languages in game infoboxes===
So far, the use of "English (United States)" and "English (United Kingdom)" as language identifiers in game infoboxes on this wiki has been rather inconsistent and arbitrary, to say the least. While Nintendo is typically known for providing distinct English localizations for the United States (and other English-speaking territories in the Americas) and the United Kingdom (and other territories where Commonwealth English is standard, apart from Canada), the actual differences between them, if any, have varied over time.


LinkTheLefty, however, argued these points:
Historically, many Nintendo games have featured minor English text differences between their releases in the Americas and Europe/Oceania; however, these were typically not wholly separate localizations to account for the differences between American and British (or Commonwealth) English – they tended to follow American English conventions for the most part regardless. Rather, they were simple amendments made by Nintendo of Europe to Nintendo of America's existing English scripts, usually either to rectify perceived shortcomings or to modify certain terminology based on internal preferences. These versions were typically stored separately on region-specific cartridges or discs, with occasional differences in how they were labeled in internal data.
*The suggestion to italicize ship names contradicts with [[MarioWiki:Naming#Italics]]: "''Italics are used in main and gallery namespace page titles in the same way that they are used in text.''"
*The in-game name for the ship is not italicized, and we shouldn't be italicizing names that Nintendo doesn't italicize to "fix" their formatting.
*The [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style]] makes no mention of italicizing boat names.
*MLA may not be a relevant standard to follow as it is not explicitly stated to be followed in our wiki. Additionally, style guides such as AP Stylebook or U.S. Navy Style Guide does not italicize ship names.


I hope I have accurately summed up LinkTheLefty's points. If I have misrepresented their comments or left out any important points being made, please let me know.
Later, during the DS, Wii, 3DS and Wii U eras, more distinct localizations specifically for the United States and United Kingdom that also accounted for regional language differences became more commonplace. However, all of the aforementioned practices have largely faded with the advent of the region-free Nintendo Switch, where games now typically release simultaneously worldwide on identical cartridges. As a result, English scripts are now more often than not also identical across regions (or at most contain only very minor differences, such as the date format used; in many cases, the date format is the ''only'' difference), though they are still almost always stored and labeled separately in internal data, typically alongside each other.


I, however, disagreed, arguing the following points:
This proposal aims to determine how we should handle cases of identical or nearly identical (American) English scripts between regions when identifying languages in game infoboxes. Should we list them both as "English (United States)", simply as "English" or adhere to how they are distinguished in internal data, even when actual differences are minimal?
*I do not see a contradiction. "Text" in the cited sentence refers to the content of an article, not in-game text as I assume that's being argued. The sentence in the naming guidelines refers to the wiki's requirement to italicize the titles of the subject to be consistent with the game text. For example, ''Mario Party 4''{{'}}s article needs to include {{tem|italic title}} to italicize the article header per policy.
*The text in a video game medium is different from in an encyclopedia and thus is not subject to formatting standards that we have. Additionally, video game medium tend to not italicize in-game names. I cite non-italicized game names from the tips from ''Super Smash Bros.''. There is also mention of [[Super Luigi series]]. Finally, we already italicize implicit names in the big list in [[List of implied entertainment]] which are likely not italicized in the in-game text.
*If our Manual of Style already takes elements from MLA (which is does by advocating italicizing "games, series, movies, television programs, albums (music) and publications (print: comics, books and magazines) [...]") but does not explicitly state adhering to MLA), then we should be expanding what needs to be italicized to include ship names and other applicable titles, even if they are fictional, in accordance to MLA (Wikipedia italicizes fictional titles too, see {{wp|Pequod (Moby-Dick)}}; I assume it's reasonable to use Wikipedia as an example).
*If MLA is not relevant, then we should be following styling standards from other wikis. Wikipedia is a major wiki and it italicizes ship names, so I believe it makes sense to try to follow Wikipedia in that regard. I do concede that there are some Wikipedia guidelines not strictly followed in our wiki ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Sic such as minor grammar and spelling errors in [sic] quotations needing to be silently corrected] while we include [sic] even for minor grammar errors).


My proposal is to amend our Manual of Style to add italicizing titles not already mentioned in our Manual of Style, but outlined in the MLA guidelines. We should have it be policy to italicize ship names, play names, artwork, web publications, and anything else not already mentioned in our Manual of Style. If MLA is not relevant, then we should be at least following a bit of what Wikipedia does, as we're an internet wiki that is designed similarly to Wikipedia. We also must include names of fictional elements such as fictional books, fictional games, and so on. I believe this is simply just a policy update to keep up with increasing standards with this wiki over time.
'''Proposer''': {{User|PaperSplash}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT


Even if this proposal is rejected, there has to be some clarification of what should not be italicized, and if it is rejected, I'm going to try to get a discussion running on what we can agree should not be italicized.
====Option 1: List largely identical American English localizations only as "English (United States)"====
#{{User|PaperSplash}} My third choice. I mean, when it really is just American English, I can see the argument.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Bazooka Mario}}<br>
====Option 2: List largely identical American English localizations as simply "English"====
'''Deadline''': December 26, 2020, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|PaperSplash}} My first choice. I think it's the best compromise that makes the most sense, all things considered.
#{{User|Hewer}} I feel like this way is the most straightforward and accurate.
#{{User|CarlosYoshiBoi}} I mean, if it’s just the same thing and no changes (assuming it doesn’t include dates for save files), then I guess this one makes the most sense.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Primary option. It's the simplest, it seems reasonable enough, and is applicable across the board; while it isn't exactly in-line with how Nintendo is handling things as of the Switch era, it's reasonable ''enough'' and can easily account for pre-Switch cases very well.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all. Especially if that means that we will stop using "English (United States)" for games that use a variety of English that is not specifically American and weren't even released in America such as ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels|SMBTLL]]'' or ''[[Mario & Wario]]''.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.


====Change the guidelines====
====Option 3: List both "English (United States)" and "English (United Kingdom)" if distinguished in internal data, otherwise simply list "English"====
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I think it's reasonable to italicize ship names and I do think policy should be updated to reflect any other applicable titles that need to be italicized and are not explicitly mentioned in our Manual of Style.
#{{User|PaperSplash}} My second choice. When internal data classifies them that way, it ''could'' make sense to follow suit...
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} I think it's reasonable enough.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice, as this seems to be Nintendo's official methodology as of the Switch; however, this ''exact'' rationale doesn't account for situations like, say, [[Mario Party 8]] and its infamous recall in the UK, which predates Nintendo's official distinguishing of NA English and UK English from the Switch era, leaving us at a bit of a loss for how to handle it exactly.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} I was the one who decided to italicize ship names. I think it's formal writing and it should have been done earlier, honestly.
#{{User|CarlosYoshiBoi}} This option could also work if date formatting is different despite the game itself using the same script for the US and UK/Australia, like Mario & Luigi: Brothership.
#{{User|DarkNight}} Per all.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per all and MLA FTW.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all. Just because were not Wikipedia doesn't mean we can't do ''some'' things like Wikipedia. And using proper and professional formatting isn't "being fancy for the sake of being fancy", it's being formal.
#{{User|TheDarkStar}} - per all


====Do not change====
====Option 4: Do nothing====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per myself in The Princess Peach talk page and summarized points. <s>All</s> I'd add <s>is</s> that it's not just the text within video games that hasn't been italicizing ship names, but also ''Nintendo Power'' and related guides as far as I'm aware. Additionally, I'm still not sure why MLA style in particular should be adopted when even certain other styles disagree and have other ideas. Personally, I think a fan wiki can easily afford to adopt and discard the conventions that work best for it in its own Manual of Style, and as-is is closer to our goal of being as official as possible. Also pointing out observations in the comments below such as the full-on [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_27#MLA_Format|rejection]] of enforcing MLA in [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Create a template for citations|proposal]]s and [[MarioWiki talk:Manual of Style#On the Topic of References|discussion]]s, shortsightedness of modeling ourselves after other wikis that don't have the same goals, science [[Halberd|fantasy]]/[[Arwing|fiction]] [[:Category:Aircraft|ve]][[:Category:Spacecraft|hi]][[:Category:Trains|cl]][[:Category:Watercraft|es]] unnecessarily affected in accordance, etc. And for those repeating that the MLA is just more "formal" - the MLA was designed with the express intent of academic/scholarly purposes. Those who drafted our Manual of Style understood that there are other valid ways to suitably formalize and knew to draw the line at overcorrection.
#{{User|CarlosYoshiBoi}} I’m actually surprised no one put anything in this option kind of like the title mentions “Do nothing.”
#{{User|Alex95}} - Having ship names in the mix would probably be confusing considering we've only been italicizing media names and nothing else. "The Princess Peach" is not a media. I think the point of italicizing titles is to make it clear on what's media and what's not (though I see the [[Super Luigi series]] is an outlier here, given it is not a real piece of media).
#{{User|Keyblade Master}} - Although this is something the Kingdom Hearts Wiki does (for the ships in the Pirates of the Carribean worlds), doing it here would be a bit too much.
#{{User|AwdryFan1997}} Per all who disagree. I like the idea of italicizing the names, don't get me wrong, but if a multimillion-dollar company like Nintendo doesn't bother with MLA, why should we? It feels like we're going out of our way to be less accurate. And, yeah, again, let me re-emphasize the "per all" thing, we're not Wikipedia and we shouldn't hold ourselves up to the MLA standards. We're MarioWiki, we're independent, and we're well past the days of being overly fancy for the sake of it. If the ship names were italicized in the games themselves, by golly would I want us to do so as well. But they don't, so, let's just not.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} Per everything LTL wrote on this topic (I will also say that the suggestion WIkipedia is in any way a standard to be followed is ''fundamentally offensive'' to me.)
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per LinkTheLefty on the issue of MLA, and I also do not agree with using the standards of other wikis such as Wikipedia to determine our own standards.


====Comments====
====Comments====
Alex95: According to guidelines, this won't lead to italicizing shop names and locations as they're not normally italicized. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Titles#Major_works Wikipedia] as a bit of a guide to see how things will get italicized (note that ship names are indeed one of the few things not in the big list of long works that are italicized). There seems to be a reasoning behind the italicization of ship names ([https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/320181/why-are-vessel-names-italicized#320187 here]). Whether a work is fictional or not seems irrelevant, as, again, I cite [[List of implied entertainment]].
For better accuracy, "British English" should probably be "Commonwealth English." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:13, February 8, 2025 (EST)
 
:Noted. Though I decided to focus mainly on the terminology used in game infoboxes, as I realized this wiki's use of the term "British English" is effectively its own can of worms... [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 15:35, February 9, 2025 (EST)
 
I'm a bit confused what this proposal is trying to change. Is it just about terminology used in game infoboxes? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:31, February 9, 2025 (EST)
 
:In hindsight, I realized this proposal was trying to change too many things at once, so I decided to tidy things up and focus on just the game infobox terminology for now. [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 15:35, February 9, 2025 (EST)
 
Realistically even though Canadian English does use British/Commonwealth spelling most of the time, they just get US English spelling in games as Nintendo groups Canada with North America and their English is pretty similar to English in the US, so Nintendo products in Canada are just the same as in the US.
 
In this case why don’t we also just group American English and Canadian English into one and call it "North American English" even if it’s moreso mainly American English? [[User:CarlosYoshiBoi|CarlosYoshiBoi]] ([[User talk:CarlosYoshiBoi|talk]]) 10:45, February 11, 2025 (PST)
 
:I'm not quite sure exactly what point you're trying to make here, but per [[Template:Languages/doc|the documentation for the "languages" template]], the reason they're labeled the way they currently are in game infoboxes is because they're the primary markets American English and British/Commonwealth English localizations are made for. And for what it's worth, whenever Nintendo specifically labels "North American English" as a selectable language whether in-game or in internal data, they usually refer to the United States or US specifically, not North America/NA as a whole. [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 16:27, February 11, 2025 (EST)
 
::I think I’m going with the fact that the English (United States) language for Nintendo is also intended for Canada (and it’s also applied onto the "Japan" and "Hong Kong/Taiwan/South Korea" regions on the Switch) despite just using American English. Kinda like with European French where although it’s just moreso referring to Standard French/French from France, it’s intended for all French-speaking regions in Europe (France, Belgium and Switzerland). [[User:CarlosYoshiBoi|CarlosYoshiBoi]] ([[User talk:CarlosYoshiBoi|talk]]) 14:58, February 11, 2025 (PST)
 
If Nintendo is also still adding English (United Kingdom) for their games despite there being almost no differences from the North American English versions aside from date or other words if needed, why do they keep American spelling? Wouldn’t it make more sense for British English spelling to be used even if it’s one of the only differences between English (United States) and English (United Kingdom)? [[User:CarlosYoshiBoi|CarlosYoshiBoi]] ([[User talk:CarlosYoshiBoi|talk]]) 22:00, February 12, 2025 (PST)
 
:Less work for something ultimately unimportant, I guess? It's not like American spelling is unintelligible to non-Americans. Anyway, what does this have to do with the proposal? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:39, February 13, 2025 (EST)
 
::Just came up to me somehow on the topic of American English and British English. Not as big of a problem anyways but just hit me. [[User:CarlosYoshiBoi|CarlosYoshiBoi]] ([[User talk:CarlosYoshiBoi|talk]]) 7:37, February 12, 2025 (PST)
 
:I don't work for Nintendo nor do I know anyone personally who does, so I can't exactly say for sure. But my best guess is that they simply don't feel like they need to anymore. The main problem with Nintendo not having separate US and UK English localizations before was that certain words considered offensive in the UK but not the US would show up in Nintendo of America's localizations that were also going to be largely reused in Europe, as seen with ''[[Mario Party 8]]'' and ''[[Super Paper Mario]]''. But now such words appear to get caught and edited out during Nintendo of America's initial English localization pass, like "[[wiktionary:welcher|welcher]]" in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions]]'', "[[wiktionary:bugger|bugger]]" in ''[[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|Super Mario RPG]]'' and "[[wiktionary:bummer#Noun 3|bummer]]" in ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]''. Also, it seems that ever since at least ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'' or so, Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Europe have been working together more closely on English localizations from the start, as a couple English localization staff at NoE are now often also credited on NoA localizations and vice versa. With any potentially problematic words (regionally or otherwise) now seemingly being addressed much earlier on, there's no longer a really good reason they ''need'' to otherwise address differences between American English and British English during the localization process that would justify the extra time, effort and pay. While I'm sure it was appreciated by some, as Hewer mentioned, most people in the UK are used to reading and hearing US English and can understand it just fine (and the same goes vice versa to a lesser extent). It's not like Spanish where many Latin Americans genuinely struggle with understanding Spaniard slang and sometimes vice versa. As for why they still store UK or “EU” English scripts separately from the US ones in internal data despite being them being almost or outright entirely identical now, I think part of that is a remnant of the previous generation where more distinct localizations stored in folders labeled by both region and language was the standard (and it makes it easier for them to port over the more distinct localizations from older games whenever they bother doing so, like ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'''s for ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]''). But I think the other reason is to make it easy just in case something actually still needs changing between regions, most commonly the aforementioned date formats. Because that can be legitimately confusing, since they would essentially be backwards otherwise by the other region’s standards. [[User:PaperSplash|PaperSplash]] ([[User talk:PaperSplash|talk]]) 19:56, February 14, 2025 (EST)
 
===Make about templates on ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' courses and ''New Super Luigi U'' courses link to each other instead of a disambiguation page, but keep the disambiguation page===
{{early notice|February 21, 2025}}
"Where is that Star Coin in [[Jungle of the Giants]]? Oh, I’ll use Super Mario Wiki. Wait, I’m playing ''[[New Super Luigi U]]'' so it’s the counterpart [[Giant Swing-Along]]. How do I get from the Jungle’s page to Swing Along’s page? The about template should take me to… a [[Soda Jungle-1|disambig]]?"
 
What the hypothetical person above said. There’s only two courses with the code [[Soda Jungle-1]], and since Nintendo does not reuse worlds in other games in the same role as worlds, the odds of there ever being a third Soda Jungle-1 are 0%. Given this is the case, if a user does go to a [[New Super Mario Bros. U|Mario U]] course when they meant a Luigi U course, having the about template point to a disambiguation page for a whopping two articles means the user has to click two times to reach the corresponding article for Luigi U. While this is a minor issue, there's a whole [[MarioWiki:Naming#Shared titles|paragraph]] in [[MarioWiki:Naming]] dedicated to saving readers the clicks when searching for the most obvious topic of a group of topics that share a name. I think that philosophy should be extended to this curiosity.
 
We should carve out a special exception regarding the About template for this pair of games. About templates for levels from ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' and ''New Super Luigi U'' simply link to the other article, even though the articles in question do not share a name. The disambiguation page remains, because neither Soda Jungle-1 is more prominent than the other. (It also matches the relationship between ''Donkey Kong Country'' levels to ''Donkey Kong Land'' levels) As a result, this:
*"This article is about Jungle of the Giants, a level in ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. For other uses, see Soda Jungle-1."
becomes this:
*"This article is about Jungle of the Giants, a level in ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. For its ''New Super Luigi U'' counterpart, see Giant Swing-Along."
 
And so on and so forth for all... 90 or so courses.


Keyblade Master: There has to be a reason Kingdom Hearts Wiki does this? Why can't MarioWiki do it? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:42, December 12, 2020 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Salmancer}}<br>
:Different Wikis don't have to have the same rules as each other. They even allow strategy writing while we don't. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}}
'''Deadline''': February 28, 2025, 23:59 GMT
:I understand there's a precedent for italicizing ship names. I just think we should keep it to media titles, for this wiki, so people don't think ''The Princess Peach'' is a book title or something. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:47, December 12, 2020 (EST)
::I'm fairly certain context clues help out identifying what the title is rather than glancing at a name, as it can be argued that you could also mistake ''Super Luigi'' series as a video game series and not a fictional book series. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:50, December 12, 2020 (EST)
:::Fair enough. It's a personal preference, then. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 18:51, December 12, 2020 (EST)
::(ec) Keyblade Master: This is true that our policies and styling should not mirror wikis just because other wikis do it, but I'm asking for why this needs to be different in MarioWiki than in other wikis? We do have certain formatting consistencies across wikis, including italicizing game names and bolding the first instance of an article name in the body text, and my reasoning for this is that there's a sort of implicit formatting professional standard that emphasizes readability and consistency.
::(ec) Italics will not introduce confusion. Chances are, many readers already know names for ships are already in italics as it's widely practiced (even if not always consistent) in other wikis, and even if MarioWiki is their first exposure to an italicized ship name, they can easily take inferences from context clues what the ''Princess Peach'' refers to and learn that ship names are in italics. Furthermore, italics already encompass many different kinds of works and is always reliant on context; ''Donkey Kong Country: Rescue on Crocodile Isle'' is referring to a book but can easily be interpreted as a title for a video game without any context or prior knowledge of the media. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:58, December 12, 2020 (EST)
:::I'm not sure how ''Kingdom Hearts'' handles things (preliminary glancing suggests that series also doesn't italicize ships but there are so many different games and versions it may not be consistent), but I don't think it was sufficiently [[Talk:The Princess Peach|answered]] why the wiki must adopt this aspect of MLA style specifically when Nintendo themselves demonstrably do not. Other styles are just as valid if not moreso for the general purposes of a wiki. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 05:22, December 13, 2020 (EST)
::::Nintendo is inconsistent with italicizing game titles: they don't do it for in-game text either, especially in Smash Bros. bios for characters where game titles are left unitalicized. I don't think they're the ideal model to look to when it comes to formatting things in an encyclopedic fashion because they serve a different medium: it's unnecessary for them to italicize things for in-game purposes. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 14:53, December 13, 2020 (EST)
:::::But I still fail to understand what makes going further with MLA style ideal for this encyclopedia. There's a difference between italicizing subjects that exist in the real world and italicizing subjects that have never been officially italicized as they simply don't exist. In the end, it's a stylistic choice that not everyone universally uses - so again, why even enforce MLA in particular? Consider also that the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 27#MLA Format|topic]] [[MarioWiki talk:Manual of Style#On the Topic of References|of]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Create a template for citations|MLA]] has come up several times in the past, and each time it was decided not to strictly use it. Also, I understand that not all in-game text supports italics - which is why I am additionally referencing [https://archive.org/details/NintendoGameBoyManuals/Wario%20Land%20-%20Super%20Mario%20Land%203%20%28World%29/page/n9/mode/2up manuals,] ''Nintendo Power'', and related guides and supporting material, where it would have made the most sense to italicize these things (for example, [http://web.archive.org/web/19980610012500/http://www.nintendo.com/gb/wario_land_ii/2.html here] is the "SS Tea Cup" on the ''Wario Land II'' website). Different styles are meant for different purposes - for example, the U.S. Navy Style Guide specifies not to use "the" before a ship's name, running counter to "the Sweet Stuff" and "the Princess Peach" among all other mentions - so is it really our role to fix what, by most accounts, isn't broken? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:12, December 13, 2020 (EST)
::::::I realize that we're not explicitly using MLA but I think italics for works and the odd ship name is the way to go and in terms of general formatting, I think it's best to follow closer to that. I don't think it's that much of a major change but I'd like to see text for ship names appear similar to the ship names in Wikipedia, as well as fictional works. Citations ''should'' be formatted by the way and there's agreement that we need the formatting here and I'll still pressure featured articles to have proper sourcing. I think style guides can be inconsistent and some game guides don't italicize ship names, but I'm not really seeing the connection we have to make between game guides and wiki compared to looking at examples from big wikis. I will ask, however, about the reasoning for format to begin with: why do we bold the first instance of the subject in an article? Why italicize game names at all? Why even encourage italics for practically all major works (quotations for smaller works) and stop at ship names (as well as names for things not mentioned in our Manual of Style including web publications and artwork; what if a famous pop artist creates a titled work about Mario? should we not italicize even if it's not explicitly spelled out in the Manual of Style?) even if ship names are usually included? Why put dates in citations in parentheses? Why forbid the use of 2nd person? Why discourage contractions? In the end, this might just boil down to fundamental disagreement on how to format prose, but I feel the reasons for stopping at ship titles are reliant on nonencyclopedic styling from other sources, that we aren't adopting MLA (which is technically true it appears but I do not see the harm in using its suggestions especially when other encyclopedias do this) and the argument that we aren't Wikipedia (this needs to be backed up to why we should deviate here; only example given was the formatting on a video game article name regarding ''NiGHTS into Dreams'' which I do not think is a strong case against italicizing ship names and fictional works), which I do not agree. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:00, December 13, 2020 (EST)
:::::::The change from ''NiGHTS into Dream...'' to ''Nights into Dreams'' is one I can only charitably describe as braindead idiocy, but if you want more examples of Mario Wiki articles that would be butchered under Wikipedia standards, a lot of titles should probably be considered generic within their context - meaning that we would uncapitalize the names of [[ape]], [[bear (enemy)|bear]], [[Bee (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins)|b]][[Bee#Yoshi's Story|e]][[Bee (Wario Land II)|e]][[Bee (Donkey Kong Jungle Beat)|s]], [[chicken]], [[cobra]], [[cook]], [[Drill Bit|drill bit]], [[Ghost (Piranha Plant)|ghost]], [[hog]], [[Hot Dog (item)|hot]] [[Hot Dog (enemy)|dog]] [[Hot Dog Stand|stand]], [[Maw-Ray|unagi]], [[Poison Mushroom|poison mushroom]], [[poltergeist]], [[raccoon]], [[Sea Turtle|sea turtle]], [[shadow]], [[Small Spider|small spider]], [[Snake (Mario Clash)|snake]], [[twister]], [[urchin]], among dozens of others. Then what? Do those names become unusable, or are we merely "fixing" Nintendo's "mistake"? Is that not going to put off readers expecting something more out of this wiki and have for years seen this corner of the Internet as being next to official to their interests? Frankly, becoming more like other wikis means going down a rabbit hole that I'll refuse to part of, so let's try to keep the discussion about "MLA style and its merits" instead of "MLA style because of Wikipedia". Now, our Manual of Style certainly does use a few elements of MLA*, but previous attempts to adopt MLA [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 27#MLA Format|wholesale]] have been shot down (the main argument against [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 55#Create a template for citations|this]], by the way, isn't that we ''shouldn't'' properly source citations, but rather that such templates are too restrictive to one arbitrarily "right" style, promote unnecessary elitism, would be too cumbersome to enact, etc.). As for a reason for not italicizing ship names that doesn't boil down to "this is my personal preference"? Well, aside from the idea that it is not our place to "fix" Nintendo's fiction (interpretations are one thing, but corrections are another), keep in mind that said fiction is a fantastical video game franchise with outlandish things such as [[Doom Ship|fanciful]] [[Rainbow Cruiser|airship]]s, [[Jumbo Barrel|barrel]] [[Biplane Barrel|aircraft]]s, [[Submarine Yoshi|vehicle]] [[Train (form)|transformation]]s, and [[Flying Pizza|advanced]] [[Pleiades|spaceship]]s - are we really going to italicize all of these too despite how silly we will look? And if not, "why stop there" if it's MLA? If so, what about cases like the multipurpose [[Dribble Taxi]], where there's no clear idea on if it should be unitalicized like most other automobiles or italicized like most other vessels? I just think this is much more trouble than it's worth. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:25, December 14, 2020 (EST)
::::::::You are misinterpreting the goal of that citation proposal. The template would have been used in the same vein as <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[:Template:Ref quote|ref quote]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> in that it would have been an option for editors who opt for some formatting consistency. Also, promoting "elitism"? I see that as adhering to more academic conventions. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:37, December 14, 2020 (EST)
:::::::::There are many other reasons it lost as sorting through all those comments is outside the scope of this discussion and, frankly, irrelevant (anyone is urged to read through and decide for themselves if those reasons are justified in their free time, hence "etc.", but I'm not the only one who disagrees with the notion that it must mean we do not encourage proper citations) - it serves as an example of MLA being brought up and rejected by other users in the past. I will address the "academic / looking to Wikipedia" angle as I feel it is relevant here: the simple fact is that we are not an academic resource, and {{wp|Wikipedia:Academic use|neither is Wikipedia}}. Furthermore, Wikipedia has a motto called {{wp|Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth|verifiability, not truth}}. How about {{wp|Wikipedia:No original research|no original research}}? That would mean many things like [[Special:Contributions/Dayvvbrooks|Dayvv Brooks]] and [[Talk:Virtual Boy Wario Land#Official boss names|NOA]] [[Talk:Wario Land II#Some more enemy names|emails]] are out the window. {{wp|Wikipedia:No original research#Using sources|Primary sources}}? Our stance is basically backwards from theirs. Among a myriad of reasons, modeling ourselves after Wikipedia (or most other wikis for that matter) does not suit the goals and needs of the Super Mario Wiki, which is to accurately represent all things ''Mario''. It does no one any favors to get wrapped up in the trivialities of the formatting originating from more general wikis. Let's not use this as an excuse to sidestep active issues though. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:23, December 14, 2020 (EST)
::::::::::I will not disagree that this wiki has certain fundamentals that differentiate us from Wikipedia, such as our focus on original research--[[Talk:Game Over#Verification through video clips|which I attempted to address in some capacity several years ago]]. However, us having a much lighter verification system (nonetheless dictated by the scope of our wiki) does not mean we should ignore certain conventions that are telling of a, dare I say, professional and believable medium. While wikis are generally unacceptable in academic sources, let's not forget that they in and of themselves are collections of research made by a community of users, which asks for certain conventions to be put in place. The bottom line is that this wiki is made of constants and variables; we are compatible with Wikipedia in some areas and in others we are not, and if something they do wouldn't harm our wiki or contradict its manual of style, I personally see no reason not to borrow from them. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:10, December 14, 2020 (EST)
:::::::::::The thing about the video clip proposal is that I believe it falls under in-game/media references, which are generally removed or considered unneeded (I do personally think we can change it a bit, but that's neither here nor there). That brings us full circle, however: why the need to borrow this aspect from MLA? I've been asking this since almost the start but I still don't have a satisfactory answer ("[[Special:Diff/3084638|I'm not 100% sure]]" didn't exactly inspire confidence). If there are "some Wikipedia guidelines not strictly followed in our wiki" then why the push to be more like Wikipedia? It shouldn't mainly be because it's popular on other wikis, since it's been demonstrated how being much more like Wikipedia would only cause upheavals. Why does ''that'' style make ''this'' wiki more "professional" over other styles? I think a far more valuable trait on a wiki like this is internal consistency; a regular reader should not flip through game worlds and have to wonder why one level is suddenly the odd one out or find inconsistent italicization between a similar-themed [[Super Ludship|nickname]] and [[Super Ludsub|real name]]. What about quotations? Those are already in italics, so we are losing detail when we are adding italics to things that don't already have them outside of quotes (this is already a minor annoyance of mine with about templates, but I digress). I realize this is anecdotal, but I've seen the Super Mario Wiki referred to as the "gold standard" in casual conversation within the past year or so. Let's keep it that way. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:15, December 14, 2020 (EST)
::::::::::::From what I understand, the subject we refer to as "The Princess Peach" on the wiki is the overarching area around the actual ship, not the ship itself. If so, this would make it a similar case to levels and ''WarioWare'' microgames named directly after certain games, such as [[Super Mario Kart (microgame)]], which we do not italicize on grounds of it not being ''the'' game ''[[Super Mario Kart]]''. So too we wouldn't italicize [[The Princess Peach]] (and any other gameplay area names based on ships, such as [[Gangplank Galleon (world)]]) as it is not the ship itself. This eliminates the possibility you mentioned of leaving readers confused as to why one level stands out among the rest; any mentions of the actual ship will, however, be italicized if the proposal passes, and that applies to ''[[S.S. Caviar]]'', ''[[Daisy Cruiser]]'' and ''[[Gangplank Galleon]]'' as well, along with all the other ships in the ''Mario'' universe. Also, can you provide examples in print or digital media where Nintendo italicized game titles? The ''Wario Land'' manual you offered above does not format the game's title in any distinctive way, so the point that the S.S. Teacup should remain unitalicized according to that falls asunder. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:45, December 16, 2020 (EST)


@Glowsquid: How is following ''some'' of Wikipedia's guidelines "fundamentally offensive" to you? This proposal doesn't automatically call for a sudden following of Wikipedia standards to the letter. {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 14:09, December 16, 2020 (EST)
====Support: Link the corresponding courses together with the about template====
: The last bullet point in the main proposal textstates "If MLA is not relevant, then we should be following styling standards from other wikis. Wikipedia is a major wiki and it italicizes ship names, so I believe it makes sense to try to follow Wikipedia in that regard." The main thrust of the proposal may not be "We should do it because Wikipedia does it" but the quoted is an implication that Wikipedia's adoption of the standard, in some way, legitimizes it or makes it preferable. I am stating my disagreement with ''that'' idea. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 16:48, December 16, 2020 (EST)
#{{User|Salmancer}} I only have 100 seconds to beat the Luigi courses, for the love of hammers save me the click when I put in a Mario course by accident!
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} If there are two and only two levels that correspond to the same world name and level number (e.g. "Soda Jungle-1"), then one should just immediately link to the other, just like pages that use the <nowiki>{{distinguish}}</nowiki> template such as [[Slug]] and [[Vine Slime]]. Seeing the disambiguation page should only be necessary if someone thinks to visit "Soda Jungle-1" first without remembering the level's exact name.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} one of those changes so obvious you question why they weren't done that way in the first place. per proposal!
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Very sensible change to make.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Makes perfect sense.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense to us. If there were more than 1 DLC like ''NSLU'', maybe linking to the disambiguation would have more merit, but with exactly 1 of them...
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Seriously, 12 years after the games released and we still have this problem?


==New features==
====Oppose: Status quo, about templates go to disambiguations.====
''None at the moment.''
 
====Comments (Use <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> to cross-link Mario/Luigi U courses)====
I know I'm on about swapping from "level" to "course". That's for another day, which is why the example doesn't change the word choice. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 18:54, February 14, 2025 (EST)


==Removals==
===Include the show's title in home media releases of various ''Mario'' cartoons where it seems to be intended===
===Delete “List of [TV show title] episodes featuring [Character]”===
Okay, the title may be a bit confusing, so let me aloborate myself.
While I was browsing the page for Candy Kong, I happened upon the article “List of Donkey Kong Country episodes featuring Candy Kong”.  I clicked on the article (which had been flagged for needing to be rewritten), and realized that the article is unneeded. All of its information could be put on the Candy Kong page in a condensed format. There are other pages like this for Mario and Donkey Kong, and a deleted one for Mouser. Personally, I think we should merge the content in the articles into the character’s article and deleting the pages.


'''Proposer''': {{User|MightyMario}}<br>
''[[The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!]]'', ''[[The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3]]'' and ''[[Super Mario World (television series)|Super Mario World]]'' all have [[List of The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! home media releases|home]] [[List of The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 home media releases|media]] [[List of Super Mario World (television series) home media releases|releases]] that include various episodes on a single VHS or DVD. Most of these releases are named after an episode included within it, with the show's name/logo appearing before it, however, we seem to omit the show's name for no reason?
'''Deadline''': December 27, 2020, 23:59 GMT
[[File:The Bird The Bird front VHS cover.jpg|right|100px]] I've got an example here. This VHS here is clearly intended to have the title ''{{fake link|The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!: The Bird! The Bird!}}'', as evidenced by the cover. However, we've just title the article as [[The Bird! The Bird! (VHS)|''The Bird! The Bird!'' (VHS)]] which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Home media releases of ''[[Donkey Kong Country (television series)|Donkey Kong Country]]'' have it like this. So why are these different?


====Delete the articles and merge their content====
Now, of course, if the title of the show is clearly intended to NOT be a part of the title, then we won't include it.
#{{User|MightyMario}}: A paragraph per episode isn’t needed, just a couple of sentences saying what they do in the episode and how they contribute to the plot.
#{{User|AwdryFan1997}}: I can see why we have them, but I honestly don't see any reason we can't just merge the info into the main articles. I know this sounds a little hypocritical with my philosophy of shorter, more concise articles, but I think we can include the info elsewhere. There really isn't a need to have these to begin with, honestly. They just feel unnecessary.


====Keep the articles====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Kaptain Skurvy}}<br>'''Deadline''': March 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I don't think a blanket deletion of these is a good idea. Some characters don't need them, but other characters like Mario and Bowser, who play major roles in nearly every episode of the cartoons they appear in, would have very long sections in their already massive pages. I'd prefer this to be handled on a case-by-case basis. That can be said, I'm open to re-merging in the future if it can be demonstrated that characters with lots of appearances could have sections of reasonable length.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Waluigi Time, I do not feel that a complete blanket deletion is the best way to go about it. I have explained more of my reasoning in the comments below.
#{{User|KPH2293}} Per Waluigi Time. I think case-by-case is the way to go.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per.


===Comments===
====Support====
While I can see the case for minor characters such as Mouser getting merged, the reason those pages were created was to keep plot summaries off the page, with major recurring characters in mind. Perhaps there can be a case made for summarizing a role these characters get followed by a simple bullet list of episodes characters appear in however, in a similar vein to how [[Skewer#Super_Mario_Maker_/_Super_Mario_Maker_for_Nintendo_3DS_/_Super_Mario_Maker_2|Skewer has a bullet list for all official Super Mario Maker courses it appears in]]. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:39, December 20, 2020 (EST)
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} ''The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!: Per all!''
:That could also work. {{User:MightyMario/sig}}
#{{User|Arend}} Per the Kaptain. I've made this same suggestion in [[Talk:Donkey Kong Country: The Legend of the Crystal Coconut#Omit "Donkey Kong Country" from the titles of home media releases of the show|a prior proposal]] on doing the inverse.
I feel like articles for major such as [[List of The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 episodes featuring Mario]] are acceptable due to the length of their original articles, though a major issue I see with the pages currently is that the sections seem to describe the full plot of the episode, rather than just the character’s role. I feel it would make sense to keep major character pages and rewrite them to focus on the character, though one page that I’ve always been unsure of its necessity is [[List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa]], since none of the other Koopalings have an article like it, and there is not much information on it. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 18:12, December 20, 2020 (EST)
#{{User|Jdtendo}} For consistency.
:I think that's because the Mario, a starring character, has his role is tied strongly to the plot. I think the way to go might be like how [[Wendy_O._Koopa#The_Adventures_of_Super_Mario_Bros._3|Wendy]] does it, at least for recurring characters. In Mario's case, might as well say he appears in all but one episode and then point out which episodes he ''doesn't'' have much of a role in. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:26, December 20, 2020 (EST)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per ourselves in the proposal Arend mentioned; this seems to be how the official releases are titled, so we should follow suit.
::Yeah, I think the Koopalings don't necessarily need separate pages, though I don't like the current presentation on Wendy's. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:28, December 20, 2020 (EST)
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} I see no reason not to do this. It only serves to improve clarity, and the show's title is almost always on the actual cover of the home media anyway.
:::I can definitely see your points there, and I agree that would probably be a better way to go about it. I do feel that the way Wendy’s page deals with it could use some rewriting, though. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 18:36, December 20, 2020 (EST)
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal. This just makes sense for consistency.
#{{User|Pizza Master}} Per all.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per all


==Changes==
====Oppose====
''None at the moment.''
====Comments====
I'd also like to say that ''[[The Biggest Ever Super Mario Bros. Video]]'' doesn't appear to have its full (or correct) title either, as I explained [[Talk:The Biggest Ever Super Mario Bros. Video|here]]. The front of the box states ''The Biggest Ever Video: The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!'', and the back of the box calls it ''The Biggest Ever Super Mario Bros. Super Show Video''. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:15, February 19, 2025 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 17:03, February 21, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Saturday, February 22nd, 07:08 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
  2. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  3. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."

Poll proposal formatting

As an alternative to the basic proposal format, users may choose to create a poll proposal when one larger issue can be broken down into multiple sub-issues that can be resolved independently of each other. In a poll proposal, each option is its own mini-proposal with a deadline and Support/Oppose subheadings. The rules above apply to each option as if it were a its own two-option proposal: users may vote Support or Oppose on any number of options they wish, and individual options may close early or be extended separately from the rest. If an option fails to achieve quorum or reach a consensus after three extensions, then "Oppose" wins for that option by default. A poll proposal closes after all of its options have been settled, and no action is taken until then. If all options fail, then nothing will be done.

To create a poll proposal, copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the option deadlines will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}

====[option title (e.g. Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 3)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{ongoing TPP}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles and Super Mario Run.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Organize "List of implied" articles, EvieMaybe (ended January 12, 2025)
Split Mario & Luigi badges and remaining accessories, Camwoodstock (ended February 1, 2025)
Merge Chef Torte and Apprentice (Torte), Camwoodstock (ended February 3, 2025)
Merge the Ancient Beanbean Civilizations to List of implied species, Camwoodstock (ended February 13, 2025)
Make Dark Mode available to everyone, Pizza Master (ended February 20, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Merge Wiggler Family to Dimble Wood, Camwoodstock (ended January 11, 2025)
Split the Ink Bomb, Camwoodstock (ended January 12, 2025)
Create a catch-all Poltergust article, Blinker (ended January 21, 2025)
Merge the two Clawing for More articles, Salmancer (ended January 27, 2025)
Merge Dangan Mario to Invincible Mario, PrincessPeachFan (ended January 30, 2025)
Give the Cluck-A-Pop Prizes articles, Camwoodstock (ended January 31, 2025)
Reverse the proposal to trim White Shy Guy, Waluigi Time (ended February 8, 2025)
Split Animal Crossing (game), Kaptain Skurvy (ended February 12, 2025)
Split the modes in the Battles page, Mario (ended February 15, 2025)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Include italics for category page titles for media that normally uses it

Shouldn't category pages for media that uses italics (such as games, shows, movies, etc.) use italics for their category pages? I did start adding it to some pages already, but I thought it was worth proposing about it, possibly to make it policy. I feel like italics should be used though, as it is used everywhere else. For example, the page titled Category:Donkey Kong 64 should be Category:Donkey Kong 64.

Proposer: Kaptain Skurvy (talk)
Deadline: February 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to February 27, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Wait, this isn't already policy??? We think this lack of parity speaks a lot to how neglected categories can be in some regards. While yes, the category description isn't really meant to be the main point, we don't think slightly slanted text is distracting from the actual list of articles in the category, and just because categories are more utility than text doesn't excuse the text that is there looking below the standard of a usual article for being "lesser".
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) Nothing wrong with having more consistency around the wiki.
  4. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per all.
  5. Salmancer (talk) It is easier to figure out what the standards are from context alone when the standards are applied in every instance.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Categories are supposed to provide simple, direct, and utilitarian functions, not something to be read or presented to readers. I don't think italicizing them is necessary and would detract from their simplicity.
  2. Sparks (talk) Per Nintendo101. It doesn't feel necessary.
  3. OmegaRuby (talk) What is this supposed to change, exactly? Yes, it's in line with how pages about games are to have the subject italicized, but the change feels unneeded and especially arduous to implement for pretty much no reason. Per Nintendo101.
  4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
  5. Rykitu (talk) Per Nintendo101
  6. Mushroom Head (talk) Per all
  7. Technetium (talk) Per all.

Comments

@Nintendo101: In that case, why do we italicise game titles in category descriptions? (Genuine question, I'm undecided on this proposal.) Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 08:58, February 7, 2025 (EST)

Because that is a proper sentence. It is not the tool itself. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:15, February 7, 2025 (EST)
We mean... Wiki policy is to italicize game titles on their articles' names using {{Italic title}}, too, and those aren't proper sentences. They're article names. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 19:00, February 8, 2025 (EST)
That's not the same situation in my eyes because the articles are what the site is for. That is what we are writing and presenting to the public. Of course we would italicize those. The categories are a tool, chiefly for site editors, not readers. We do not really gain anything from italicizing their titles. If anything, I worry this would lead to a lot of work to implement, either burdening site editors, porplemontage, or both. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:05, February 9, 2025 (EST)
So category names are just tools not meant for readers, but category descriptions aren't? Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:08, February 9, 2025 (EST)
The descriptions are just sentences, and I feel inclined to render those they way we would a sentence anywhere else on the site, be it on articles or in the description for image files. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)
We disagree with the notion categories are more for editors and not readers; while yes, all of the categories on the front page are maintenance categories from the to-do list, the sheer quantity of proposals for categories wouldn't make sense if they were moreso for editors, rather than your average reader; moves such as the reforms for the Look-alikes categories or the Thieves category wouldn't make sense if these weren't meant to be public-facing. And of course, there are the various categories that exist for users, but do not serve a utility purpose, such as the various "users that know a given language" categories.
As for difficulty implementing, considering the recent success stories with images without descriptions and categories without descriptions having gone from 4000+ and ≈100, to 0 and 0 respectively, we have it in good faith that this wouldn't be that hard to implement. Monotonous? Yes. But difficult? It's nothing a bit of caffeine and music can't solve. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:22, February 9, 2025 (EST)
Not only for editors, but chiefly for them. I don't exclude the idea of more curious readers utilizing them, but I suspect they are exceptions. I maintain that their ease of implementation is more important to the site than the formatting inconsistency. Like, are we to be expected to format category ourselves as "[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots|Category:''Super Mario World'' screenshots]]" instead of just "[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots]]" going forward? Would we do this for the articles that are in dozens of categories? Why? I would not want to do that, and I don't find the inconsistency a good enough reason to roll something like that out, and only brings downsides. It makes the tool where one types "[[Category:" almost entirely moot because we would still need to write out the whole name just to format it this way. Others are welcomed to think differently, but I personally think the way we format these names now in categories is perfectly fine. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)

even if this proposal doesn't pass, i think we should use Template:Italic title in the category pages. — Super Leaf stamp from Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury.eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 10:16, February 12, 2025 (EST)

I thought that was the whole proposal. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:32, February 13, 2025 (EST)
@Kaptain Skurvy: Could you please clarify whether the proposal's goal is simply to add italic title to categories, or to also do something else as well? Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 20:14, February 17, 2025 (EST)

Change "(game)" identifier to "(arcade)" on the articles of Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr. and Mario Bros.

I wouldn't consider "game" to be the best identifier for the arcade games Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr. and Mario Bros. There's already a Game and Watch game that shares its title with each of the arcade games, but "Donkey Kong" is the name of various other games too! There's the tabletop game, the Game Boy game, the Nelsonic Game Watch game and the slot machine. I know the slot machine is technically an arcade game, but it's not a standard cabinet like the 1981 arcade game. "Game" is a broad identifier, especially for Donkey Kong. Shouldn't a "game" identifier only be used if there's no other game with the same name? That's why we use consoles for identifiers instead, such as Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (Wii) and Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (Nintendo DS).

Proposer: Kaptain Skurvy (talk)
Deadline: February 22, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Those articles also cover the game's release on Famicom, NES, Atari, etc., so "arcade" would not be a holistically accurate identifier.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Nintendo101; "arcade" is kind of a misnomer when the non-arcade ports are covered on them.
  3. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per Nintendo101.
  4. PaperSplash (talk) Per ThePowerPlayer's comment.
  5. Rykitu (talk) Per all

Comments

Maybe "arcade game" would be a decent compromise? PaperSplash (talk) 18:02, February 8, 2025 (EST)

What about Dr. Mario? That game also has a separate release also called Dr. Mario.--PopitTart (talk) 18:24, February 8, 2025 (EST)

The reason why the games Donkey Kong and Dr. Mario should keep their identifier of "(game)" is because those are by far the most popular and commonly thought-of games under their respective titles; the other articles (aside from Donkey Kong on the Game Boy) are on much more obscure devices while being clearly separate from the original game. To put it another way, "Dr. Mario (game)" is what people are looking for when they think about "the game featuring Dr. Mario"; meanwhile, you'd be forgiven for not knowing that the Gamewatch Boy game even exists at all. ThePowerPlayer Slug.png ThePowerPlayer 22:15, February 8, 2025 (EST)

what about Donkey Kong (1981)? — Super Leaf stamp from Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury.eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 18:39, February 9, 2025 (EST)

That would work for Donkey Kong, but the original Mario Bros. and the arcade game of the same title were both released in 1983. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 12:49, February 12, 2025 (EST)

Standardize the use of "English", "English (United States)" and/or "English (United Kingdom)" as languages in game infoboxes

So far, the use of "English (United States)" and "English (United Kingdom)" as language identifiers in game infoboxes on this wiki has been rather inconsistent and arbitrary, to say the least. While Nintendo is typically known for providing distinct English localizations for the United States (and other English-speaking territories in the Americas) and the United Kingdom (and other territories where Commonwealth English is standard, apart from Canada), the actual differences between them, if any, have varied over time.

Historically, many Nintendo games have featured minor English text differences between their releases in the Americas and Europe/Oceania; however, these were typically not wholly separate localizations to account for the differences between American and British (or Commonwealth) English – they tended to follow American English conventions for the most part regardless. Rather, they were simple amendments made by Nintendo of Europe to Nintendo of America's existing English scripts, usually either to rectify perceived shortcomings or to modify certain terminology based on internal preferences. These versions were typically stored separately on region-specific cartridges or discs, with occasional differences in how they were labeled in internal data.

Later, during the DS, Wii, 3DS and Wii U eras, more distinct localizations specifically for the United States and United Kingdom that also accounted for regional language differences became more commonplace. However, all of the aforementioned practices have largely faded with the advent of the region-free Nintendo Switch, where games now typically release simultaneously worldwide on identical cartridges. As a result, English scripts are now more often than not also identical across regions (or at most contain only very minor differences, such as the date format used; in many cases, the date format is the only difference), though they are still almost always stored and labeled separately in internal data, typically alongside each other.

This proposal aims to determine how we should handle cases of identical or nearly identical (American) English scripts between regions when identifying languages in game infoboxes. Should we list them both as "English (United States)", simply as "English" or adhere to how they are distinguished in internal data, even when actual differences are minimal?

Proposer: PaperSplash (talk)
Deadline: February 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: List largely identical American English localizations only as "English (United States)"

  1. PaperSplash (talk) My third choice. I mean, when it really is just American English, I can see the argument.

Option 2: List largely identical American English localizations as simply "English"

  1. PaperSplash (talk) My first choice. I think it's the best compromise that makes the most sense, all things considered.
  2. Hewer (talk) I feel like this way is the most straightforward and accurate.
  3. CarlosYoshiBoi (talk) I mean, if it’s just the same thing and no changes (assuming it doesn’t include dates for save files), then I guess this one makes the most sense.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Primary option. It's the simplest, it seems reasonable enough, and is applicable across the board; while it isn't exactly in-line with how Nintendo is handling things as of the Switch era, it's reasonable enough and can easily account for pre-Switch cases very well.
  5. Jdtendo (talk) Per all. Especially if that means that we will stop using "English (United States)" for games that use a variety of English that is not specifically American and weren't even released in America such as SMBTLL or Mario & Wario.
  6. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
  7. OmegaRuby (talk) Per all.

Option 3: List both "English (United States)" and "English (United Kingdom)" if distinguished in internal data, otherwise simply list "English"

  1. PaperSplash (talk) My second choice. When internal data classifies them that way, it could make sense to follow suit...
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary choice, as this seems to be Nintendo's official methodology as of the Switch; however, this exact rationale doesn't account for situations like, say, Mario Party 8 and its infamous recall in the UK, which predates Nintendo's official distinguishing of NA English and UK English from the Switch era, leaving us at a bit of a loss for how to handle it exactly.
  3. CarlosYoshiBoi (talk) This option could also work if date formatting is different despite the game itself using the same script for the US and UK/Australia, like Mario & Luigi: Brothership.

Option 4: Do nothing

  1. CarlosYoshiBoi (talk) I’m actually surprised no one put anything in this option kind of like the title mentions “Do nothing.”

Comments

For better accuracy, "British English" should probably be "Commonwealth English." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:13, February 8, 2025 (EST)

Noted. Though I decided to focus mainly on the terminology used in game infoboxes, as I realized this wiki's use of the term "British English" is effectively its own can of worms... PaperSplash (talk) 15:35, February 9, 2025 (EST)

I'm a bit confused what this proposal is trying to change. Is it just about terminology used in game infoboxes? Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:31, February 9, 2025 (EST)

In hindsight, I realized this proposal was trying to change too many things at once, so I decided to tidy things up and focus on just the game infobox terminology for now. PaperSplash (talk) 15:35, February 9, 2025 (EST)

Realistically even though Canadian English does use British/Commonwealth spelling most of the time, they just get US English spelling in games as Nintendo groups Canada with North America and their English is pretty similar to English in the US, so Nintendo products in Canada are just the same as in the US.

In this case why don’t we also just group American English and Canadian English into one and call it "North American English" even if it’s moreso mainly American English? CarlosYoshiBoi (talk) 10:45, February 11, 2025 (PST)

I'm not quite sure exactly what point you're trying to make here, but per the documentation for the "languages" template, the reason they're labeled the way they currently are in game infoboxes is because they're the primary markets American English and British/Commonwealth English localizations are made for. And for what it's worth, whenever Nintendo specifically labels "North American English" as a selectable language whether in-game or in internal data, they usually refer to the United States or US specifically, not North America/NA as a whole. PaperSplash (talk) 16:27, February 11, 2025 (EST)
I think I’m going with the fact that the English (United States) language for Nintendo is also intended for Canada (and it’s also applied onto the "Japan" and "Hong Kong/Taiwan/South Korea" regions on the Switch) despite just using American English. Kinda like with European French where although it’s just moreso referring to Standard French/French from France, it’s intended for all French-speaking regions in Europe (France, Belgium and Switzerland). CarlosYoshiBoi (talk) 14:58, February 11, 2025 (PST)

If Nintendo is also still adding English (United Kingdom) for their games despite there being almost no differences from the North American English versions aside from date or other words if needed, why do they keep American spelling? Wouldn’t it make more sense for British English spelling to be used even if it’s one of the only differences between English (United States) and English (United Kingdom)? CarlosYoshiBoi (talk) 22:00, February 12, 2025 (PST)

Less work for something ultimately unimportant, I guess? It's not like American spelling is unintelligible to non-Americans. Anyway, what does this have to do with the proposal? Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:39, February 13, 2025 (EST)
Just came up to me somehow on the topic of American English and British English. Not as big of a problem anyways but just hit me. CarlosYoshiBoi (talk) 7:37, February 12, 2025 (PST)
I don't work for Nintendo nor do I know anyone personally who does, so I can't exactly say for sure. But my best guess is that they simply don't feel like they need to anymore. The main problem with Nintendo not having separate US and UK English localizations before was that certain words considered offensive in the UK but not the US would show up in Nintendo of America's localizations that were also going to be largely reused in Europe, as seen with Mario Party 8 and Super Paper Mario. But now such words appear to get caught and edited out during Nintendo of America's initial English localization pass, like "welcher" in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions, "bugger" in Super Mario RPG and "bummer" in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. Also, it seems that ever since at least Paper Mario: Color Splash or so, Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Europe have been working together more closely on English localizations from the start, as a couple English localization staff at NoE are now often also credited on NoA localizations and vice versa. With any potentially problematic words (regionally or otherwise) now seemingly being addressed much earlier on, there's no longer a really good reason they need to otherwise address differences between American English and British English during the localization process that would justify the extra time, effort and pay. While I'm sure it was appreciated by some, as Hewer mentioned, most people in the UK are used to reading and hearing US English and can understand it just fine (and the same goes vice versa to a lesser extent). It's not like Spanish where many Latin Americans genuinely struggle with understanding Spaniard slang and sometimes vice versa. As for why they still store UK or “EU” English scripts separately from the US ones in internal data despite being them being almost or outright entirely identical now, I think part of that is a remnant of the previous generation where more distinct localizations stored in folders labeled by both region and language was the standard (and it makes it easier for them to port over the more distinct localizations from older games whenever they bother doing so, like Mario Kart 8's for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe). But I think the other reason is to make it easy just in case something actually still needs changing between regions, most commonly the aforementioned date formats. Because that can be legitimately confusing, since they would essentially be backwards otherwise by the other region’s standards. PaperSplash (talk) 19:56, February 14, 2025 (EST)

Make about templates on New Super Mario Bros. U courses and New Super Luigi U courses link to each other instead of a disambiguation page, but keep the disambiguation page

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on February 21, 2025 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

"Where is that Star Coin in Jungle of the Giants? Oh, I’ll use Super Mario Wiki. Wait, I’m playing New Super Luigi U so it’s the counterpart Giant Swing-Along. How do I get from the Jungle’s page to Swing Along’s page? The about template should take me to… a disambig?"

What the hypothetical person above said. There’s only two courses with the code Soda Jungle-1, and since Nintendo does not reuse worlds in other games in the same role as worlds, the odds of there ever being a third Soda Jungle-1 are 0%. Given this is the case, if a user does go to a Mario U course when they meant a Luigi U course, having the about template point to a disambiguation page for a whopping two articles means the user has to click two times to reach the corresponding article for Luigi U. While this is a minor issue, there's a whole paragraph in MarioWiki:Naming dedicated to saving readers the clicks when searching for the most obvious topic of a group of topics that share a name. I think that philosophy should be extended to this curiosity.

We should carve out a special exception regarding the About template for this pair of games. About templates for levels from New Super Mario Bros. U and New Super Luigi U simply link to the other article, even though the articles in question do not share a name. The disambiguation page remains, because neither Soda Jungle-1 is more prominent than the other. (It also matches the relationship between Donkey Kong Country levels to Donkey Kong Land levels) As a result, this:

  • "This article is about Jungle of the Giants, a level in New Super Mario Bros. U. For other uses, see Soda Jungle-1."

becomes this:

  • "This article is about Jungle of the Giants, a level in New Super Mario Bros. U. For its New Super Luigi U counterpart, see Giant Swing-Along."

And so on and so forth for all... 90 or so courses.

Proposer: Salmancer (talk)
Deadline: February 28, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support: Link the corresponding courses together with the about template

  1. Salmancer (talk) I only have 100 seconds to beat the Luigi courses, for the love of hammers save me the click when I put in a Mario course by accident!
  2. ThePowerPlayer (talk) If there are two and only two levels that correspond to the same world name and level number (e.g. "Soda Jungle-1"), then one should just immediately link to the other, just like pages that use the {{distinguish}} template such as Slug and Vine Slime. Seeing the disambiguation page should only be necessary if someone thinks to visit "Soda Jungle-1" first without remembering the level's exact name.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) one of those changes so obvious you question why they weren't done that way in the first place. per proposal!
  4. Rykitu (talk) Per all
  5. Ahemtoday (talk) Very sensible change to make.
  6. Jdtendo (talk) Makes perfect sense.
  7. Camwoodstock (talk) Makes sense to us. If there were more than 1 DLC like NSLU, maybe linking to the disambiguation would have more merit, but with exactly 1 of them...
  8. Mushroom Head (talk) Seriously, 12 years after the games released and we still have this problem?

Oppose: Status quo, about templates go to disambiguations.

Comments (Use {{about}} to cross-link Mario/Luigi U courses)

I know I'm on about swapping from "level" to "course". That's for another day, which is why the example doesn't change the word choice. Salmancer (talk) 18:54, February 14, 2025 (EST)

Include the show's title in home media releases of various Mario cartoons where it seems to be intended

Okay, the title may be a bit confusing, so let me aloborate myself.

The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World all have home media releases that include various episodes on a single VHS or DVD. Most of these releases are named after an episode included within it, with the show's name/logo appearing before it, however, we seem to omit the show's name for no reason?

Front cover for "The Bird! The Bird!" VHS

I've got an example here. This VHS here is clearly intended to have the title The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!: The Bird! The Bird!, as evidenced by the cover. However, we've just title the article as The Bird! The Bird! (VHS) which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Home media releases of Donkey Kong Country have it like this. So why are these different?

Now, of course, if the title of the show is clearly intended to NOT be a part of the title, then we won't include it.

Proposer: Kaptain Skurvy (talk)
Deadline: March 3, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!: Per all!
  2. Arend (talk) Per the Kaptain. I've made this same suggestion in a prior proposal on doing the inverse.
  3. Jdtendo (talk) For consistency.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per ourselves in the proposal Arend mentioned; this seems to be how the official releases are titled, so we should follow suit.
  5. Fun With Despair (talk) I see no reason not to do this. It only serves to improve clarity, and the show's title is almost always on the actual cover of the home media anyway.
  6. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal. This just makes sense for consistency.
  7. Pizza Master (talk) Per all.
  8. Rykitu (talk) Per all

Oppose

Comments

I'd also like to say that The Biggest Ever Super Mario Bros. Video doesn't appear to have its full (or correct) title either, as I explained here. The front of the box states The Biggest Ever Video: The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, and the back of the box calls it The Biggest Ever Super Mario Bros. Super Show Video. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 13:15, February 19, 2025 (EST)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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