MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''


=== Get rid of or heavily restrict the "Subject origin" parameter ===
==New features==
===Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page===
This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more ''Super Mario'' games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for [[Mario]], [[Bowser]], and many other recurring subjects.


I can already sense a murmur rising in the crowd, but hear me out. I've made it no secret on here that [[Template_talk:Species_infobox#Point_of_derived_subject.2Fsubject_origin.3F|I don't really like the Subject origin parameter]] on the [[Template:Species infobox|species infobox]]. The term "subject origin" is a bit of a misnomer. It really should've been called "design inspiration", because rather than explaining where the subject comes from ''in pieces of media'', it's only ever been used in instances where the subject took any sort of inspiration from another entity, either real or fictional. If that sounds oddly broad... then yes, it ''is'' '''very''' broad.
Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.


This line of reasoning is used for bizarre classifications such as [[Mincer]]s being derived from [[Zinger]]s because they're both spiky enemies (is Mincer even an enemy, or just an obstacle?) that follow specific paths, or every "Bone" enemy variant being derived from [[Dry Bones]] even if they don't actually fall apart. There's even a few cases where "subject origin" has taken priority over confirmed relatedness between species, despite the term not in itself suggesting a close relationship between subjects, thus ''losing'' useful information in the infobox in these cases (e.g. [[Rocky Wrench]]es which were formerly [[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]s, [[Whomp]]s which are said to be "cousins" of [[Thwomp]]s, [[Krumple]]s being blue Kremlings that follow the same naming scheme as their predecessors [[Krusha]] and [[Kruncha]]).
For example, let's say for [[Luigi]] in his appearance in ''[[Mario Sports Superstars]]'', there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:


The most awkward instances, however, are easily the instances of a subject being "derived" from a generic concept. [[Kleptoad]]s, though based on [[frog]]s, have little to no relevance to any of the generic instances of frogs present in the Mario franchise. Similarly, [[Rabbid]]s are entirely separated from the Mario series' depictions of [[rabbit]]s, not only because they don't act like generic rabbits in the Mario series, but also because they're not even from the same ''franchise''. It's not even restricted to entities that actually ''have'' pages on the Mario Wiki. [[Kremling]]s are stated to originate from "crocodilians", a page that [[:Category:Crocodilians|only exists as a category]], [[Crazee Dayzee]]s are derived from "flowers" (which are in a similar situation), and [[Krimp]]s are listed as being derived from "dogs". Who's to say [[Boo]]s aren't derived from "ghosts", or that [[Flaptack]]s don't have "bird" as a subject origin, or that [[Octoomba]]s aren't based off of both "aliens" and "octopuses"?
:''For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see [[List of Luigi profiles and statistics#Mario Sports Superstars|here]].''


I hope you can see that the unrestricted references to generic or real-world species at the very least are a problem. But even for non-generic subject origins, the vast majority of the time (I'm tempted to say all of the time, but there could be an instance I'm struggling to think of that doesn't fall under this), this kind of info is covered sufficiently in the introductory paragraph, or the General information/Appearance section when applicable. I propose we deal with this in one of the following ways:
The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.


'''Option 1:''' Axe the "subject origin" parameter entirely. (My primary choice)<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Option 2:''' Ban usage of subject origin to refer to generic species, in addition to switching priority of "Related" and "Subject origin/Derived subjects". (I'm fine with this)<br>
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT
'''Option 3:''' Simply ban usage of citing generic species as the subject origin.<br>
'''Option 4:''' Ban usage of subject origin to refer to species from the ''Mario'' franchise.<br>
'''Option 5:''' Just switch priority of "Related" and "Subject origin/Derived subjects"


'''Proposer''': {{User|DrippingYellow}}<br>
====Support====
'''Deadline''': June 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.


==== Option 1 ====
====Oppose====
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} As derived from my proposal.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal
#{{User|7feetunder}} This parameter is, as it is currently written, not well defined at all. [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Species_infobox&diff=prev&oldid=3968459 It was originally] meant to be ''only'' for connections to real-world species, but was [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Species_infobox&diff=next&oldid=3968459 given a wishy-washy, vague rewording] so it could be used to make flimsy claims like [[Bazuka]] being based on [[Kutlass]] because they're both [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Bazuka&diff=prev&oldid=3976730 "small Kremlings with oversized weapons"] or the aforementioned Mincer thing (which I was unaware of before this proposal).
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, and especially per 7feetunder. It's an awkwardly named, unnecessarily confusing, arbitrarily used, unhelpfully broad parameter that feels like it's spiralled and descended from its [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Fix how we handle infobox relations on generic species|intended purpose]] to uselessness (plus random speculation at worst), and it feels weird for the fictional species that something's a variant of (like with [[Galoomba]]) and debatably necessary listings for the generic real thing it's based on (like with [[Crazee Dayzee]] and [[Moo Moo]]) to use the same parameter. In short, this subject is the origin of much confusion, and little good can be derived from it.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per all and my comments below.
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} After enough consideration, I'll go with this option. This category got flanderized.
#{{User|Somethingone}} As the person responsible for revitalizing the parameter in the first place (it was used before my proposal and fell off before my proposal too), sure. Just as long as the real world species are kept out of the "comparable" parameter.
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Per everyone.


==== Option 2 ====
====Comments====
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Secondary choice.
{{@|Hewer}} I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)


==== Option 3 ====
===Add an abbreviation template to type out full game titles===
This proposal is about creating a template that it makes it easier to type out full game titles. Although ''The Legend of Zelda'' games generally have longer titles (and Zelda Wiki even has templates for some of their shorter titled games, like ''{{iw|zeldawiki|Hyrule Warriors}}'', {{iw|zeldawiki|Template:HW|here}}), there have still been cases in which some game titles are uncomfortably long, such as ''[[Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!]]'' or ''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]'', and while it may seem like not a big deal to some, it would be a small quality-of-life improvement if we could have a template where we input the abbreviation, and the output becomes the game title.


==== Option 4 ====
For example, <nowiki>{{a|M&LSS}}</nowiki> would result in ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'' (complete with italics formatting). Meanwhile, <nowiki>{{a|M&LSS|l}}</nowiki> to link to the game, outputting ''[[Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga]]'', although depending on who creates the template, it could be vice versa, like it links by default and <nowiki>{{a|M&LSS|n}}</nowiki> would prevent a link.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I think, right now, it's a little confusing, myself. Back when I thought to have the parameter [[Template talk:Species infobox#Repurposing subject origin?|revived]], I thought of only using it for genericized subjects, and this option seems to be closest to what I had in mind. For that matter, we don't need to list every single variant of something under derived subjects; just the base version is fine. I'd rather not go back to listing generic subjects broadly listed under comparable again, and insist that the parameter would benefit from focus.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Second choice - my original intent with that old proposal.


==== Option 5 ====
Since ''Super Mario'' has several releases, it may get difficult maintaining with all the abbreviations, and there have been cases where two games have shared the same abbreviation. (e.g. [[SMS]] for both ''Mario Sunshine'' and ''Mario Strikers''). In that case, either <nowiki>{{a|SMS|2002}}</nowiki> (with the year of release) or a custom abbreviation (e.g. <nowiki>{{a|SMShine}}</nowiki>) would be needed (personally I'd prefer the latter).
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Second choice


==== Do nothing ====
Consider we already have similar templates for Princess Peach and Princess Daisy (i.e. {{tem|Peach}} and {{tem|Daisy}}), and both of their full titles (with "Princess" included) is a lot shorter than the two game titles in the first paragraph.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - I don't really see the issue. If anything, the "relatives" parameter not having directional counterparts is the weakest link. Plus the "listing Galoombas as Goomba relatives rather than variants because a source distinguished them from each other and happened to used the word 'related'"-type of thing might be itself getting out of hand...
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per Doc
<s>#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick.</s>


==== Comments ====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
Oh, looks like I'm involved with this proposal to some degree. You see; I was the one who did the Kremling edit and especially the recent Dry Bones edits. For the latter, my explanation is that subject origin refers to things based on another entity ''while not actually being the entity.'' For example, Galoombas have been considered not Goombas, but they were meant to be inspired by them and even their [[Galoomba#Names in other languages|name]] reflects it. There are various subjects that are definitely inspired, while not considered relatives of the original entity. Goombrats are weird, because they are stated to be relatives, although it's not made clear if they are a variant, as ''Super Mario Run'' loved to throw a wrench at us. The initial existence of subject origin appeared to be more generic species that had multiple fictional variants off of it. I always had this issue with penguins on this, because the ''Mario'' franchise equivalent of penguins are meant to be based on those from ''SM64'', yet the derived section brings up entities that existed ''before it.'' The blue color seems to derived from Bumpties, so there's ''that'' [[MIPS]]hole for you. As for my Dry Bones edit, they've inspired various skeleton enemies over the years. It's obvious that Bone Piranha Plants were inspired by Dry Bones, because their designs have the same type of texture. The same applies to Fish Bones, because they are meant to be underwater Dry Bones, especially given in ''Maker'', where an underwater Dry Bones becomes a Fish Bones. Poplins are not confirmed to be relatives of Toads, but it's wrong to say that aren't inspired by Toads. Really, I got the impression that subject origin = inspiration. We know that Dry Bones and Fish Bones are definitely two different entities not even related, but we know one took inspiration from the other. I guess this type of logic would make Shellcreepers being the origin for Koopa Troopas, although Shellcreepers are retroactively considered part of the Koopa clan. Yeah, relatives is another thing. For me, if its unclear what came first, its a relative. Paragoombas have the ability to spawn Mini Goombas. Mini Goombas aren't really a variant of a Paragoomba, so the relative label fits there. To get back on topic a little bit, I'm surprised [[Moo Moo]] didn't get mentioned here; it's in the same boat of Kremling, except I made it link to the Wikipedia article for [[Wikipedia:Cattle|cattle]]. My thought process behind these edits, where to tell the viewer what the species is based off on. This is somewhat true for Kremlings, who are sometimes called [[Donkey Kong Country (television series)|reptiles or lizards]]. A person who isn't familiar with this franchise might not know what the hell a Kremling is meant to be based on, so I figured that I mention its inspired by both crocodiles and alligators (not sure if Kremlings tend to crossover with these two, like how Diddy and Dixie are crosses between monkeys and chimps). I guess this could get out of hand when talking about fictional animals such as dragons or aliens, so there's that. My thought process is that someone might not realize what the species is based on. Like, if there was a fictional species based off on a [[Wikipedia:Spider monkey|spider monkey]], which some people might not realize actually exists, ''that'' was the intended goal. Of course, it can resort to "well, no shit," situations regarding Kremlings who are just based on typical crocs and Moo Moos. So yeah, I'm not entirely sure what to choose here. I do want it to be obvious to non-''Mario'' readers what the subject is based on. Are we considering making Galoombas be considered comparable to Goombas? [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 23:55, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT


This very well could just be me, and I do not want to disregard the hard work of my fellow users. However, in my personal experience, the "subjects origins", "relatives", etc. entries for the species infoboxes have become so diluted and bloated with loosely-affiliated species that I usually just ignore whatever is written in those sections completely. This is a bit of a shame, because I remember them being quite fun and informative years prior. Today, I don't really trust/value the information written there because it seems either: (A) very subjective and promoting of drive-by edits; (B) derived from a proposal drawn chiefly from subtle similarities in Japanese nomenclature, to the point that they ignore everything about the species' physical appearance or canonized taxonomy; (C) declares it to be derived from a subject that is pretty apparent just by looking at the subject; (D) based on mechanical similarities within their respective games, which is not something that I think inherently means they are related, variants, or subjects of origins, and are details best left in the body paragraphs; or (E) are so long that it makes the whole concept of the infobox - something to quickly condense information - completely useless.  
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We don't see the harm in this, even if it would admittedly be fairly niche. The only real complaint we have is the lack of an additional parameter for changing the displayed text, so if we need to say something like "in the [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|remake]]", we have to write that out the old-fashioned way.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} might make some link-heavy pages lighter!
#{{User|Salmancer}} Words cannot express the relief that my fingers would feel if they never have to type out "Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey" again.
#{{User|Tails777}} Mario already took my example, but it still stands; the amount of times I've had to type out that title (or even the abbreviation for it) was incredibly annoying. Per all.


I do not know what would be the best amendment for the species infoboxes. Something to return them to their prior useage would be nice - it's not really clear if any of {{User|DrippingYellow}}'s options would really do that. (Possibly something to address D, I think.) But I am interested in sort of change. Too often, it feels like people are going out of their way to look for connections that are not real, rather than noting ones that unambiguously exist. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:43, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose====


Abstaining from voting, but while I don't really have a problem with axing the subject origin parameter (we can move the information from that parameter to relatives or comparable), I do realize that by doing so, we're basically undoing [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Fix how we handle infobox relations on generic species|this proposal]] about fixing how to handle the relations of generic/real-life species in infoboxes, meaning we might need a new solution for this issue. Do we have to list some of the fictional species as variants to the real-life species, related to the real-life species, or perhaps introduce a new parameter to replace subject origin that is far clearer and stricter in its definition? (e.g. "real life inspiration" or "real life counterpart"... okay tbh these aren't the best replacements, I'm basically spitballing) {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:16, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
====Comments====
:I don't remember if randomly listing the real thing that something is based on even if it doesn't have an article (like on [[Crazee Dayzee]]) was already being done before that proposal, but either way that kind of thing shouldn't be in the infobox at all in my opinion. As for "real-world species" that we do have articles for, we can probably just treat them like we would any other species in these infoboxes. To quote Nintendo101 [[Talk:Frog (Yoshi's Story)|here]], "A [[seagull]] is just as derived from real {{wp|gull}}s as [[Goonie]]s, and just as divorced from real-life components of those animals. It is inaccurate to present them as otherwise." {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:{{@|Camwoodstock}} Such a parameter can always be added to the template. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:18, December 18, 2024 (EST)


==New features==
Salmancer: ''[[Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games]]'' might be the other worst game title I've had to type out. {{User:Mario/sig}} 00:59, December 20, 2024 (EST)
===Add parameters for listing related groups to character and species infoboxes===
:Damn it, that was gonna be my example! {{User:Tails777/sig}}15:34, December 20, 2024 (EST)
Alright, I know the "Affiliation(s)" parameter for these was deprecated many years ago for being [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/2/26/Mario1c.jpg dumb], but hear me out.


A few years after [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/31#Remove the "Affiliation" parameter from infoboxes|this proposal]] passed, this wiki added a [[Template:Group infobox|group infobox]] for linking to and listing members, member species, and leaders of a group, similar to how the species infobox lists variants, notable members, etc of the species. Thing is, unlike the character and species infoboxes that are designed to link to each other (character's species/species' notable members, species variants/species variants of, and so on), group infoboxes are a one-way street as it currently stands. So, I propose that parameters be added to these infoboxes so they can list the groups they belong to. And to be clear, this parameter would '''only''' be used for groups, so we get none of that "Mario is 'affiliated' with his brother and sometimes Bowser" nonsense. This has a much more specific purpose. Right now this wiki doesn't really have lists of groups that characters and species belong to, you have to look through all the articles for groups to find that out, so I think these lists would be worth having.
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''


I've come up with two options:
==Changes==
*Option 1: [[Template:Character infobox]] and [[Template:Species infobox]] get a "member of" parameter, which would be used to link to groups they are, well, a member of. [[Goomba]] and the like would link to [[Bowser's Minions]], [[Vivian]] would link to [[Three Shadows]], etc. This parameter would be used to list both memberships and leadership roles (the latter could maybe be distinguished by adding "(leader)" next to the link).
===Broaden the scope of the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations===
*Option 2: these infoboxes would also get a separate "Leader of" parameter. [[Bowser]] would use this to link to [[Bowser's Minions]], [[King K. Rool]] would use this to link to [[Kremling Krew]], [[Captain Syrup]] would use this to link to [[Black Sugar Gang]], characters and species-characters would link to the [[:Category:baseball teams|baseball teams]] they lead, etc.
With the [[Template talk:Unreferenced#Delete or be more specific|previous proposal]] having passed with being more specific as the most voted, I've come up with a proposal about the possibility to make the {{tem|rewrite}}, {{tem|rewrite-expand}}, and {{tem|rewrite-remove}} templates more specific. As you can see, these templates are missing some smaller text. As such, I am just wondering if there is a possibility to have the smaller text added to the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki>, <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki>, and <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> templates.
*Option 3: Only add the "member of" parameter to the character infobox, not the species infobox.


EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, the parameters would be displayed in a two-column list similar to the species infobox parameters, and would only be used for links (e.g. groups that actually have articles, and not just any arbitrary category people come up with).
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


EDIT THE SEQUEL: Per {{user|LinkTheLefty}}, added an option to only add this to the character infobox. I originally thought it would be weird to exclude it from the species infobox since some species-characters like [[Birdo]] are heavily associated with groups such as the [[Yoshi Islanders|Birdo Beauties]], at least when these characters are treated as individuals rather than species, but in hindsight, it would be odd to, say, classify ''all'' [[Goomba]]s as members of [[Bowser's Minions]] when that's [[Goombario|obviously]] [[Goombaria|not]] [[Goomama|the]] [[Goompapa|case]]. (At least [[Gary (Super Paper Mario)|Gary]] would be classified as a member of Bowser's Minions...)
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
</div>
----
However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>
</pre>


'''Proposer''': {{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}}<br>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
'''Deadline''': <s>June 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to June 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
</div>
----
And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


====Option 1====
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} First choice per proposal.
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) The folly of the "affiliations" tab was that it was allowed to include characters, which led to nonsense like Fawful being affiliated with "himself" among other things. Restricting it to groups is perfectly fine.
</div>
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all of yall
----
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, don't really see why not. The oppose argument seems to mainly be "it could be used wrong", but that kinda goes for anything, and doesn't mean it ''will'' be used wrong.
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
#{{user|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
</pre>


====Option 2====
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Second choice per proposal.
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>
----
Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>
</pre>


====Option 3====
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Third choice per proposal.
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Secondary choice.
</div>
----
However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s):{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
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====Do nothing====
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#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Whereas a nice idea in theory, I fear we'll see a repeat of everything that led to the previous iteration of this parameter getting deleted in the first place.  Unless there will be heavy patrolling of this parameter, which seems unlike given how widespread the [[Template:Character infobox]] is, I don't trust leaving it to chance that it will be used responsibly and we won't end up with weird things like Mario being "member of" some ridiculous things like "Mario Bros.", or, just as worse, a long, long, exhaustive list of every organization Mario has ever participated in, e.g. [[Excess Express]] passengers, [[Mario Kart 8]] racers (etc., etc.), and so on. Mario is obviously a "worse case" example, but the principles apply to virtually any character who has multiple appearances. In the [[Goomba]] example that you provided, for instance, not all Goombas are part of Bowser's Minions.  What about the Goombas in [[Goomba Village]] or [[Rogueport]] or any of the other various non-Bowser-aligned Goombas.  You'd just have to get really, really into the weeds to make specific rules for parameter usage, and it will be a pain to enforce them.
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per DrBaskerville.
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#{{User|Nintendo101}} Couldn't we just write this stuff in the body paragraphs? I worry an "affiliation" would be too often open to subjective interpretation and promote drive-by edits, further damaging the infoboxes.
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#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} I'd rather avoid adding parameters that could lead to unconstructive uses.
That will be a perfect idea to make the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template and its variations as more specific as the {{tem|media missing}} and {{tem|unreferenced}} templates. That way, we'll be able to add smaller text to the remaining [[:Category:Notice templates|notice templates]] in the future.


====Comments====
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
Would having single character and species infobox options satisfy some of the opposition's concerns? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:27, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT


==Removals==
====Support====
===Trim the [[list of Snake's codec conversations]] and [[list of Palutena's Guidance conversations]]===
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
This is something that stuck out to me while I was adding profiles to [[Samus]]'s article. These articles, [[List of Snake's codec conversations]] and [[List of Palutena's Guidance conversations]], include the conversations for ''every'' fighter in the Super Smash Bros. series, even all the non-Super Mario characters. About a year ago, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Trim the Smash Bros trophies page|a proposal]] to remove non-Super Mario trophies from the lists of [[Trophy (Super Smash Bros. series)|trophies]] passed with no opposition, and most, if not all, of the points brought up in that proposal also apply here. You can read that proposal if you want to see the arguments in full, but to summarize for this proposal:
*This content does not involve anything from Super Mario and its related franchises, it is purely flavor text about non-Mario characters spoken by non-Mario characters
*We have a precedent for trimming non-Mario Smash content
*Aside from the trivia, this content isn't original to this wiki, it's flavor text pulled straight from the game itself, and you would get the exact same content from just going to SmashWiki instead


With that in mind, I think the conversations for all non-Super Mario characters should be axed from these lists. The conversations for non-Mario characters that have their own articles, like [[Link]] and [[Samus]], would still be included in their profiles/statistics along with their trophies, since I think the question of whether or not those should also be removed is best saved for a separate proposal.
====Oppose====
 
#{{User|Altendo}} As far as I can tell, the proposal that was linked added parameters that allowed what was supposed to be referenced to be referenced. This one simply adds a subtitle to the bottom of each template. "Be more specific" does not mean saying general information and helpful links, but rather exactly what needs to be done; in terms of that, the existing templates not only all already have parameters, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|filling them out is enforced]]. As [[User:Nightwicked Bowser|Nightwicked Bowser]] said, "Be more specific - Similar to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage drive-by templating|this proposal]], what exactly needs references must be specified in the template when putting it in the article. A parameter for this will still need to be added." This only adds a subtitle and does not make this "more specific". As for the changes, this is actually harmful in some way, as the <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> tag will be added to the subtitle, rather than the main body, which could make it more confusing in my opinion. Feel free to update this and add in what "more specific" actually means, or just change this to "add subtitles" and change the location of <nowiki>(tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})</nowiki> to the main body, but until then, my vote is staying here.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}}<br>
#{{User|Mario}} Best to keep things simple with these improvement templates.
'''Deadline''': June 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Trim the lists to only the conversations about characters from ''Super Mario'' and its related franchises====
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} My first instinct was to think of moving the non-Mario conversations to the sections for each fighter in the fighter lists, but seeing as we didn't do that with other things like their trophies, it's sadly pretty hard to justify keeping a ton of dialogue about non-Mario characters said by non-Mario characters in a non-Mario setting.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. For every Guidance/Codec call for an actually relevant character, such as the infamous Viridi speech about [[Piranha Plant]]s that has been outright cited in proposals that resulted in [[Petea Piranha|tangible splits]] [[Fiery Dino Piranha|or merges]], there's Snake's thoughts on Fox McCloud. Take a guess which one we think should stay, and which one we think should probably just stick to being covered on SSBWiki instead.
#{{User|Somethingone}} My thoughts are best summarized in that one essay I wrote for the character proposal<!--which I wrote completely during a car ride-->; if we trim ''Smash'' content to just Mario stuff in some areas, we should trim it that much in all areas.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per all.
#{{User|Axis}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and others
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} On a Mario Wiki, we should keep the Smash content relevant to Mario.
 
====Do nothing====


====Comments====
====Comments====
Relatedly, it's probably time we do something about [[List of Smash Taunt characters]] (perhaps a merge to the stage lists like what was done with the [[List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros.#Multi-Man mode enemies|Multi-Man enemy teams]]). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:45, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
I'll be honest, I kinda think the Mario characters should ''also'' have this stuff moved to their profile & statistics sections. That feels more natural to me than making a page for something in Smash and then giving it incomplete coverage. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:07, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
==Changes==
===Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary===
An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch)]], as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, ''very'' long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the ''TTYD'' remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and ''then'' go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?
I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'' or ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'', which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|''Super Mario RPG'']] or ''TTYD'' remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)
My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.
I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]'' and ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe|Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe]]'' that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.
This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long ''TTYD'' section might, but something like ''Super Mario Advance'' could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.
'''Proposer''': {{User|DryKirby64}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to June 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
Here's how I would fix some things:
#{{User|DryKirby64}} As proposer.
#{{User|Big Super Mario Fan}} I agree with this proposal.


====Oppose====
First of all, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I'm unsure what the best approach is to covering rereleases or remakes, but I do not think we should adopt WiKirby's model of repeating most of the same information as the original game.
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#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Opposing this particular solution, but agreeing that a solution to inadequate remake pages should be found.
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#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all.
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====Comments====
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This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten'''.
:Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
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::It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
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:::Me personally, I'd repeat gameplay information because that's the thing that's actually changed, whereas story isn't touched at all afaik. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
However, once the proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite}}</nowiki> template will read as follows:
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<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
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I think the case-by-case way we do it is fine. For instance, the SMA games and DKC remakes have enough changes both major and minor it makes the most sense to just list everything out again, which in the latters' case we do (thanks to a project of mine). But listing everything in ''Super Mario 3D All-Stars'' would be over-the-top when that's just a fidelity increase for ''three'' games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:34, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}}.</small>
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And another thing—the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> template currently reads as follows:
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It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
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In my eyes, the change list for ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' is very massive, despite my occasional efforts to subcategorize its change list. I could continue to try to compress that page's list, but even I would not call that a gold standard for "Remake changes" lists. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 17:00, June 15, 2024 (EDT)
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It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.
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However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-expand}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
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<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
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Just as someone who does go on other wikis to read up about remake information, I actually sometimes don't mind somewhat overlapping information than simply a list of changes (I don't like to hop back in between articles to read up information, especially if, say, the remake is the first time I'm ever experiencing the game). It's the reason I did sorta go all in in [[Mario Sports Superstars]] article (I wouldn't want to jump to two different pages to read mechanics about tennis and golf). I think a very brief summary of the gameplay for TTYD remake would do fine (basic battle system, hammers, jump, partners, that type of thing). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:50, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information for the following reasons:<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
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Lastly, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> currently reads as follows:
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It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
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Just for reference, the current size of the ''TTYD'' remake page is actually larger than the size of the original page (190,141 bytes vs. 185,302 bytes). {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 23:45, June 20, 2024 (EDT)
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It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have <u>content</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): ???
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However, once this proposal passes, the <nowiki>{{rewrite-remove}}</nowiki> will read as follows:
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<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed''' {{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reasons:{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
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===Replace sticks' direction notes in games' control lists with Unicode arrows===
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I've noticed for many retro games' pages, for instance ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels#Controls]]'' and to a lesser extent ''[[Mario Kart: Super Circuit]]'', have pretty wordy explanations that make the tables taller than they should ideally have been. An instance from the former page at the time of writing is "{{button|gcn|stick}} (left and right)", which if my proposal would pass would be mass-converted to "{{button|gcn|stick}}↔", especially since ''The Lost Levels'' was nominated for "Spotlight notice" earlier tonight, for which its note ''"(...) help to contribute in any way that you can."'' seem like a fitting time for me to see if this idea floats well with other users than me.
It has been requested that this article be '''rewritten''' to have content '''removed''' for the following reason(s):<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this article}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
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D-pads for newer consoles are more or less unaffected (except in particular the Nintendo 64 D-pad that doesn't currently have an icon in [[Template:Button]] at all), and motion control info for Wiimote/Joy-Con would also be unaffected due to their very high complexity, but for non-N64 analog sticks there are no other viable options at all to reduce the table boxes' text lengths.
This should fix some things, and I also recommend you change the title or at least context of this proposal. If so, then I might change my vote. [[User:Altendo|Al]][[User talk:Altendo|ten]][[Special:Contributions/Altendo|do]] 19:58, December 9, 2024 (EST)
:I {{plain link|https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&diff=prev&oldid=4457576|fixed this problem}} for you. How does it look? {{User:GuntherBayBeee/sig}} 09:40, December 10, 2024 (EST)


Other examples, though theorethical ones instead of the above ones:
===Decide what to do with Template:Move infobox===
*"{{button|switch|leftstick}} up/down" → "{{button|switch|leftstick}}↕"
A while ago (November 4th, specifically), I created [[Template:Move infobox]]. After all, we had templates for essentially all the Browse tabs on the wiki sidebar, except for moves. There WERE templates about specific types of moves, such as [[Template:M&L attack infobox]], but no general template in the same vein as items, characters, species, games, locations, etc.
*"{{button|3ds|Stick}} left" → "{{button|3DS|Stick}}←"
*(Optional) "Rotate {{button|n64|Stick}}" → "{{button|n64|Stick}}↻"


There's only really one option that I can see, with no possible alternate options to vote for instead. I personally do not consider the vote as a matter of "Mass-implement" or "Prohibit forever", and I would not object to if anyone applied the idea to arrow-application edits on individual pages if they were to so wish.
I discussed it on the Discord briefly, nobody said no, and a bit of feedback later about how it should look and what it should have, I created it. It has since been applied to exactly four pages at the time of writing, half of which I was the one to apply it to. In hindsight, this could've used with a proposal instead of me just making it, so here's a belated one.


'''Proposer''': {{User|DandelionSprout}}<br>
Should we keep '''Template:Move infobox''' around? If we do keep it, is it good as is, or does it need changes?
'''Deadline''': June 22, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
#{{User|DandelionSprout}} I've tested it with fairly good success on [[Mario Kart 64#Controls]].
'''Deadline''': January 1st, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Makes sense to me.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer.


====Oppose====
====Keep Move infobox, as is====
#{{User|Shadow2}} It might seem silly, but I think the unambiguous English word "Left" is a more direct representation than just an arrow. Someone might look at your second example replacement and think "Why is there an arrow pointing at the control stick icon?" Comparatively, "Left" means "Left". This is especially more prudent with the stick rotation. It might be obvious to you and others, but not everybody is going to see "↻" and understand that it means "Rotate the control stick". Again, the unambiguous English word "Rotate" is better.
#{{User|Sparks}} I can see this template working really well for moves that aren't in every ''Mario'' game, like [[Spin]]. This has lots of potential!
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per Shadow2, I think this is trying to fix a non-issue, plain words are much more understandable and clear than ambiguous arrows. Arrows could also be a bit problematic in terms of accessibility (e.g. screen readers, although they probably can't read the stick icon either unless it's been given alt text.)
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} I've thought a bit about this and personally, I feel this is a situation where words speak louder than pictures, or symbols in this case. This isn't necessarily something that ''needs'' to change or anything, I think it's fine the way it is. Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We don't see why not--having a dedicated Moves infobox could come in handy, especially if we get any more Mario RPGs in the wake of the weird little renaissance period we've been getting with the back-to-back-to-back SMRPG remake, TTYD remake, and release of Brothership. Per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I think the inconsistencies between devices brought up in the comments kinda sinks this idea for me.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Ahemtoday; if we had some work-around to guarantee a consistent way for screenreaders to read these/have devices always display the exact same symbols, we might be singing a different tune. But for now, we should probably prioritize what works and is accessible over aesthetics.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Keep Move infobox, but with changes====
I like this in principal, but I will sometimes use "→" to convey the order of button presses, as apparent on the ''[[Super Mario 64#Controls|Super Mario 64]]'' page. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:15, June 15, 2024 (EDT)
:Well, I guess if instead "▶" is being used (◀{{button|n64|stick}}▶, ▼{{button|gcn|c}}▲), I guess it wouldn't be much of a problem? <s>Or maybe any of {{wp|Supplemental Arrows-C|these}}?</s> Nevermind, these don't work on iPad. {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:46, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
::We already have stuff like {{button|padupdown}} and {{button|padleftright}}. Is there any way that this could be implemented on examples like those? [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 12:30, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:::Not for analog sticks by any realistic means that I can tell. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 12:33, June 16, 2024 (EDT)


Wondering if gif would be supported, since some games have animated gifs of stick movement. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:58, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
====Delete Move infobox====
:Sounds impractical in my eyes, as the GIFs would (presumably) constantly play and potentially distract people who read the pages. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 16:13, June 18, 2024 (EDT)


Regarding ease of reading, the ability to compress the height of some games' control tables by possibly more than 40%, significantly outweights any potential initial readibility. The one and only thing I'd note, is that in some rare cases the stick and the arrow could end up with a newline between them, in which case the only workaround I could find would be to use <nowiki>"<br>"</nowiki>; [[Template:Button]] doesn't seem to support non-breaking spaces. {{Unsigned|DandelionSprout}}
====Move infobox Comments====
Considering the nature of the attack infoboxes, wouldn't it be weird to have moves all in purple but a Mario & Luigi attack use yellow and green and a Paper Mario attack use white and green? Should there be variants of the Move infobox to match the color schemes of existing templates? If an article is covering multiple related moves, how will the infobox work? (ex. [[Handstand]], [[Cap Throw]], [[Roll]], [[Slide Kick]]... there's more of these than I thought). What happens when a move is referenced in somewhat less "move-y" ways? Okay, that last one is kinda strange, but basically I mean "dashing" in Super Mario Run is just a fancy animation, Mario & Luigi Dream Team has an animation where Giant Luigi crouches (with posing and skidding clearly meant to be a platformer callback), to slide under an attack. Do these instances get incorporated into the infobox? Continuing the train of thought, what about sports games? Yoshi can Flutter Jump as his special action on Mario & Sonic games. Does that count as a method of input for a Flutter Jump? [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)
:that's a lot of very interesting questions!
:*i went with purple to set it apart from the already taken light red (game), green and white (character), blue (level), pink (location), grey (item) and navy/grey (species) infoboxes. changing the color could be a good idea.
:*as for sorting which moves "count" or not, we have to decide these things for other types of subject too, after all, and they get infoboxes. it's a valid concern, though! {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 15:09, December 20, 2024 (EST)


Our main concern is: how do screen readers handle the arrow symbols in unicode? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:04, June 18, 2024 (EDT)
===Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"===
:My browser's built-in TTS feature reads "→" as "right-pointing arrow", but I'm aware of other systems that would just skip these symbols entirely. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 17:09, June 18, 2024 (EDT)
There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?
:On my end (iOS 15, you.com), a few of the symbols render as emojis (up-down arrow as ↕️, left-right arrow as ↔️, and the triangles for left and right as ◀️ and ▶️), while the others register as ASCII symbols. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 17:13, June 18, 2024 (EDT)
:I did some googling, and while "alt" doesn't seem to be supported in "span" at all, allegedly "aria-label" is supported by TTS tools, though I currently lack the setup needed to test any TTS tools. On the [[Swordfighter Peach#Controls|Swordfighter Peach]] page I've now tested out such a label with "aria-label=up" wrapped around 🠉, which I'm 85% sure wouldn't be emoji-fied. While the latter is part of the "Supplement Arrows-C" Unicode set that was said by [[User:Arend]] above to be unsupported by iOS, the set was released in 2014 and is therefore something that surely must've been added in later iOS versions, or at least I hope they've been added. Had it not been for how the arrow set I've now tested out doesn't have two-pointed arrows, I'd have called it a second 180° that would've swung the tide back in favor of approval. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 15:36, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
::Doesn't seem to work for me, it just displays as the cross in a rectangle symbol. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:02, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
::Yeah no, my iPad is running iPadOS 17.5.1, the most recent version for iPads as of last May, and it's showing your symbol as the white rectangle symbol. I'm not sure about iOS (the one running on iPhones) or MacOS, but I feel they would have to display these things somewhat similarly? {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:35, June 19, 2024 (EDT)


===Standardize sound test page titles===
Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.
Something I've noticed in [[:Category:Sound tests|some of the sound test pages]] is if they're given an in-game name for the sound test mode like "[[Jukebox]]", "[[Sound Gallery]]" etc. that name gets used instead of <s>"List of (game) in-game music"</s> "(game) sound test", but this makes things very confusing (especially when you have [[Juke Box]] and [[Jukebox]], two separate lists) since it's not clear which of these is for which game, and these sound tests can have many different possible names. Some of the <s>"in-game music"-</s> "sound test"-titled lists even have sound test names and currently don't use them (e.g. "Music List" for ''Odyssey'').


I propose renaming these exceptions to <s>"List of (game) in-game music"</s> "(game) sound test" and having the original names redirect to them (and add {{tem|redirect}} linking to the category if necessary). Of course, this would be applied to future sound tests in games as well.
This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.


However, there's also the issue of some music lists being incorporated into other, location articles (e.g. [[Musée Champignon]]) or some being treated as its own location article (e.g. [[Sound Studio]]), and I'm not fond of the idea of renaming a location to a list since the MarioWiki is supposed to [[MarioWiki:Coverage|document locations]]. I think these exceptions named after ''physical'' in-game locations (listed in '''bold''' below) should be left as is, and "Category:Sound tests" would be added to <s>"List of (game) in-game music"</s> "(game) sound test" redirects linking to their respective sections for better standardisation and consistency on the category page.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Mario}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT


Another, obvious solution would be to split these lists off from the location pages to their own <s>"in-game music"</s> "sound test" pages, which I've added as another voting option, but I personally don't like the idea of keeping all of the other sections on Musée Champignon together and intact while having its Sound Gallery somewhere else. (Then again, I noticed [[Prisma Museum]] doing just this with its art gallery at the time of writing this... Maybe the art can be moved from [[Gallery:Paper Mario: Color Splash#Concept art gallery]] to there to be consistent with Musée Champignon. But I digress.)
====Blank support====
#{{User|Mario}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
#{{User|PopitTart}} <small>(This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)</small>
#{{User|Altendo}} <small>(Look at the code for my reasoning)</small><!---It might not seem annoying, but over time, or answering multiple proposals at once, it can start putting stress. Copy-pasting can be done, but it is just much easier to not type anything at all.---->
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}}
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really ''are'' just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at ''all.'' <small>(Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)</small> <!---Silent per all.---->
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
#{{user|TheDarkStar}} - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
#{{user|Ninja Squid}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.


(EDIT: I just realised that [[Juke Box]] is a physical item in ''Mario Party''. For the sake of this proposal, it will be considered one of the bolded locations.)
====Blank Oppose====
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
#{{User|Technetium}} I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone ''does'' provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} {{color|white|Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type ''two words''.}}
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all <small>(is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)</small>
#{{User|Axii}} Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides ''some'' insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
#{{user|DesaMatt}} Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.


Relevant pages:
====Blank Comments====
*'''[[Juke Box]]'''
I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)
*[[Jukebox]]
:I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
*'''[[Musée Champignon]]'''
::There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
*[[Music Player]]
:::My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
*'''[[Music Room]]'''
::::My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the  odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
*'''[[Prisma Museum]]'''
:{{@|Mario}} I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)
*'''[[Scrapbook Theater]]'''
*[[Sound Gallery]]
*[[Sound Player]]
*<s>'''[[Sound Room]]'''</s> (EDIT: Excluded from proposal; see comments)
*[[Sound Room (WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Party Game$!)]] (While the name suggests a location, it's actually just a sound test mode like the other unbolded ones here.)
*'''[[Sound Studio]]'''
*[[Sound Test]]
*'''[[Sticker Museum]]'''


'''Proposer''': {{User|Mario jc}}<br>
Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)
'''Deadline''': June 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
:Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)


====Rename sound test modes (unbolded), create categorized redirects to others (bolded)====
I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring ''a'' written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)
#{{user|Mario jc}} - Per proposal.
#{{user|Ahemtoday}} Supporting on the condition that we rename these articles "''[game]'' sound test" instead.
#{{user|DrBaskerville}} Per all
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice, just because I really don't like the idea of indiscriminately splitting specifically the music lists from articles that cover a lot of different information, and I feel like it would look messy. For instance, it would look super weird for [[Scrapbook Theater]]'s page to just be an enemy list with the music list (which is actually shorter than the enemy list) split into its own page. Keeping the lists on the pages also helps make it clear we're using the ordering and naming from the list of music shown in that place in the game, including any other oddities, such as Scrapbook Theater's music list ending with "Yoshi's Woolly World Medley" that's just a button to play a random song. I don't think there's much of a way to justify splitting just the music lists and nothing else from pages like this.
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer.


====Rename sound test modes (unbolded), split sound tests from locations (bolded)====
===Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games===
#{{User|Arend}} Honestly, I feel like the sound tests found from locations/items should have their own dedicated article, given that articles like [[Musée Champignon]] are jam-packed with so many files that some devices (e.g. my iPad) have trouble loading the page (although this issue is also a thing with the TTYD remake's [[Sound Gallery]]). Not sure if the [[Sound Room]] of ''Wario Land 4'' should be included, given that all the CD songs included there are unique to that Sound Room (with none of the tracks appearing ''anywhere else'' in the game), and we already have [[List of Wario Land 4 media|a dedicated article]] for ''Wario Land 4'' media with the actual level music and stuff.
{{early notice|December 25}}
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Arend. We feel like this makes the most sense from a perspective of performance, which if we're being real here, is our main concern here.
The aims of this proposal is to repeal [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/69#Decide how to handle conjectural sections about Super Mario Galaxy planets/areas|this one]] that passed earlier this year. I will reiterate my position here:
<blockquote>The planetary bodies in galaxies do not just "lack" publicly accessible names - they are straight up not supposed to have names. The Shogakukan guidebook for ''Mario Galaxy'' does not give planets name. The game does not give planets name. The instruction booklet does not give planets name. The only "source" that applies discrete names for planets are from the developers and we have no reason to think these were intended to be the planets. These galaxy articles are generally a bit outdated, and I think the mistake in the first place was suggesting that some of the planets have real names "except where otherwise noted." They largely do not. I think it would would healthier to recognize that they are just different sections of a greater whole, much like areas in courses for the earlier 3D games, and apply titles accordingly.</blockquote>
To elaborate on my perspective, I think using dev data to provide names for these planets is completely fine, and I understand the desire to do so. Citing the Prima Games guidebooks for potential names for these areas is fine. That is not what this proposal is about. Rather, integrating the ''templates'' themselves - be it for conjectural or dev data-derived names - underneath the individual headers for each planet, in my view, looks very poor, as you can see here for [[Yoshi Star Galaxy#Planets|Yoshi Star Galaxy]] and [[Honeyhive Galaxy#Planets/Areas|Honeyhive Galaxy]]. They are detractingly eye-catching and break these articles without substantive benefit. I think having a nonintrusive note at the top or bottom of these articles - as was the case before the proposal I link to above passed - is perfectly sufficient and healthier for these articles.


====Do nothing====
I provide two options:
#{{User|Hewer}} This change doesn't feel super necessary to me and seems to just create more complications than it's worth. We're already using official names here, I don't really get the need to change that, especially not to "sound test", since that's ''not'' always the official name. Not every article title needs to specify the game it's talking about, otherwise we'd use identifiers on like every article. (Odyssey's page can be moved to "Music List" too if necessary)
#'''Support: Do not put conjectural and dev-data name templates beneath the names of individual planets and areas in  the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' games''': This is a full repeal of the proposal I link to above.
<s>{{user|Ahemtoday}} As someone with a vested interest due to renaming this category a while back, I think the thing with me is... I don't think the phrase "in-game music" makes much sense as a name for these articles. I only changed the name of the category because I really don't have a better name for these articles, but "in-game music" in no way conveys that these articles are about sound tests. As such, I don't really relish the concept of changing ''more'' articles to be named that.</s> My issue with this has been solved, see the comments.
#'''Oppose: Change nothing'''


====Comments====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
First of all, I think you forgot to add a comments section. Second of all, as the creator of the [[Sound Room (WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Party Game$!)]] page, I only created it like that cause there already was a Sound Room page made. I asked members of the Discord if they thought I should move the other one (which belongs to Wario Land 4) but received no reply. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 12:30, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT


Yeah, the Musee Champignon page takes a couple more seconds for me to load, too. It's in the top 170 largest pages (and would be smaller if it weren't for all the ''Mario Kart Tour'' list pages). Something curious is that ''Color Splash'' has a full media page, while for ''Origami King'' and ''Thousand-Year Door'' Switch, they just have the files embedded onto the museum/sound gallery pages. I did this for ''CS'' because I wanted to upload extra fanfares and unlisted tracks, but I'm wondering how to handle it now. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 18:27, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
====Support: Do not put templates underneath the name's of planets and areas====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} The previous solution looked a lot nicer. I also agree with Nintendo101 that we should rethink how we approach planet names in general. They don't necessarily "need" names any more than specific portions of levels in other games do.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} I still don't agree with the "planets are not supposed to have names" argument, but I do agree that having templates beneath every section heading is excessive.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Waluigi time. The overall assumption that the planets have names unless otherwise stated feels like the consequence of a decision made very, very early on into the wiki, that's just kind of gone unquestioned or unnoticed until very recently. This won't stop that particular case of WikiJank™ completely, but it's a step in the right direction.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} if all the names are unofficial, then we only need to say it once. if there's an official name, we can just say "all names are unofficial unless specified" and specify in the one planet that has a name (is there any planets with names even???). having the template on each individual section is both ugly and inefficient
#{{User|Mario}} Yeah, the setup before this was satisfactory. Per Evie, but I also agree with Waluigi Time that we probably don't need to require naming these parts of the level either.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} I always thought assigning these objects meant to be part of the environment conjectural templates has always struck me as odd and I don't know why only Super Mario Galaxy gets singled out out of all games. We don't name the rooms the Mario Party minigames take place in.
#{{User|Tails777}} I was sincerely confused when I saw the templates put back on the various galaxy articles and questioned "Why? It was better beforehand." Per all.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} In the longer-term, WT and Nintendo101 bring up points which ought to be considered. In the shorter term, this would be a beneficial first step to de-cluttering these sections for better readability.
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Nintendo101, Waluigi Time, and Porple's comment below.
#{{User|MCD}} Per N101, WT and Porple below. I also agree our attitude on what counts as "conjectural" when it comes to naming planets needs a rethink, i.e. it's not conjecture to call the planet the player starts on the "starting planet" because that's just a factual description. (Also, why does [[Starting Planet]] just redirect to a random galaxy? lol)


@Ahemtoday The point of the proposal is to keep the naming consistent. The "in-game music" can be renamed to something else later if needed. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:51, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
====Oppose: Keep the templates====
:I think where I'm at right now is that I prefer naming these articles after the menus/areas in which they play, even given the inconsistency, over the unfitting "in-game music" title. I'll support the proposal if someone suggests a more suitable we could move all these to instead. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:26, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I'm opposing this proposal ''as currently slated to be implemented'' — as in, just removing [[Template:Conjecture]] and [[Template:Dev data]] from these sections and leaving it at that. These need to be marked, and I don't feel that an "unless otherwise noted" disclaimer is an elegant way to do that. However. There is a way of accomplishing this that I ''would'' be amenable to: replacing those templates with [[Template:Conjectural]] or a new dev data equivalent to it. This is the same way our glitch pages do it, for exactly the same reason you want to get rid of these templates on the galaxy pages. I think it makes perfect sense to use this convention here as well to solve this problem.
::I was thinking just "(game) sound test", like "(game) [[bestiary]]". {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:48, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:::Ooh, that's a good way to handle it. I'll vote for this proposal on the condition that that's the naming scheme we use. Do I need to make a separate proposal for that or something, or is it uncontroversial enough that we can just do that? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 03:29, June 17, 2024 (EDT)
::::Looks like Porple went ahead and [[:Category:Sound tests|renamed them]], so that takes care of that. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 10:40, June 17, 2024 (EDT)


@Arend I forgot the Sound Room songs are unique and not from the game's levels, so an "in-game music" title wouldn't be accurate. I've removed it from the list (so it would be the only name exception in the category). {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:51, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
====Comments on the planet template proposal====
:A bit tangential, but do you think [[List of records in WarioWare: D.I.Y.]] would qualify as an exception? I know it's not in the category right now, but it's reminiscent of that situation. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:26, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
I agree that we don't need the repeated templates, and the whole naming situation of the planets is a bit odd. Rather than giving the planets capitalized "names" (e.g. "Starting Planet") and noting them as conjectural, they should just be described in sentence case, at which point it should be somewhat obvious that it's a description and not a "name". For example, section heading "Starting planet" and text "The starting planet has..." You could do a single {{tem|conjecture|2=subsections=yes}} under the "Planets" heading if you really wanted to, but I think if we removed all the inappropriate capitalization then even that wouldn't be necessary. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 20:11, December 19, 2024 (EST)
::Yes, I would count that as an exception alongside Sound Room. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:48, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
::Seconding that the WarioWare D.I.Y. records should probably be an exception. Those are all exclusive songs that don't appear in any of the other modes (unless you input music from them into one of your own Microgames, of course). {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 00:05, June 17, 2024 (EDT)


So my naming issue has been solved, but let me say my thoughts on separating these out. See, the thing is, these articles are not all in the same situation. Yes, [[Musée Champignon]], [[Prisma Museum]], [[Scrapbook Theater]], and [[Sticker Museum]] have enough content in the article that a split-out list would function. It's extremely justifiable for [[Prisma Museum]], which is already split; but maybe a bit less necessary for [[Sticker Museum]], whose other contents are mostly plaintext. However, [[Juke Box]] and [[Sound Studio]] have basically nothing outside of the content that would get split off; in option 2, they would be basically nothing but stubs leading to another article. And then there's [[Music Room]], which covers multiple games; I can only describe it as an edge case. I'm not sure it makes sense to treat all these articles the same way. Though I suppose this proposal ''is'' about creating consistency. If we're dead-set on doing that, I have to support option 1 — I value [[MarioWiki:Once and only once]] over fast load times. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 03:29, June 17, 2024 (EDT)
===Set Vector-2010 to the default wiki skin===
This proposal is about setting the 2010 [[mw:Skin:Vector|Vector]] as the default wiki skin ([https://web.archive.org/web/20160207064154/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/4/44/Logo_new-vector_screenshot.png screenshot here]) for desktop users, with the focus being on people who are new to wikis in particular, while obviously keeping the existing MonoBook skin as an option. What made me think to create this proposal is when I made a [[Talk:Main Page]] proposal about the to-do list tasks and how they are more accessible than clicking the "Wiki maintenance" on the sidebar, I had to uncomfortably squint to find "Wiki maintenance" on the wiki sidebar. But Vector-2010 has the sidebar links slightly larger and a bit more spaced out. With the existing interface, there could be some who may struggle to find options listed on the sidebar.


===Split ''Wario Land: Shake It!'' bosses into boss levels===
While we're clearly different from Wikipedia (that's why I'm not Vector-2022, since it'd be too much of a departure and likely uncomfortable for several), I do want to refer to [http://web.archive.org/web/20180213165624/https://blog.wikimedia.org/2010/05/13/a-new-look-for-wikipedia/ this page], which summarizes why Wikipedia transitioned to it. Though it is vague, they cite accessibility as the reason, which I think this wiki has been taking steps toward doing.
This proposal is similar to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/41#Create separate articles for DKC series and DKL series boss levels|the one that passed]]. As you see, we have [[Motley Bossblob]] and [[Hisstocrat]] boss levels from ''[[Super Mario 3D World]]'', the boss levels from the [[Donkey Kong Country (series)|''Donkey Kong Country'' series]], even boss levels ''[[Yoshi's Crafted World]]'' where each boss guards a [[Dream Gem]]. Right now, you might be wondering how we can create separate articles for the ''[[Wario Land: Shake It!]]'' boss levels.


According to the "<boss> → <boss level>" diagram, the following pages will be affected by the split:
I'll cite my reasons for preferring Vector and applying this to possible people who are visiting a wiki for the first time. The text is larger, which is especially important for larger screen monitors, some of the lesser used tabs are collapsible on the sidebar, summarizing the most commonly used options, and the user links at the top right are also more noticeable and less close to the body of the article where the content is read.


*[[Rollanratl]] → [[Rollanratl Battle]]
Though it could take time getting used to the Edit button being on the right (not to mention the search button), the button is at least larger, making it more usable on even lower quality screen monitors, and I like how it's separate from the Page and discussion options, meaning that options that involve viewing articles are on the left while options that involve editing or changing the page in some form are on the right.
*[[Hot Roderick]] → [[Hot Roderick Race]]
*[[Chortlebot]] → [[Chortlebot Challenge]]
*[[Bloomsday]] → [[Bloomsday Blowout]]
*[[Large Fry]] → [[Large Fry Cook-Off]]
*[[Shake King]] → [[VS the Shake King]]


Once this proposal passes, then we will be able to create separate articles for the ''Wario Land: Shake It!'' boss levels.
If this proposal passes and others don't like the change, they can always return to the MonoBook option in their [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering|preferences]].


'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Hewer}} I guess this makes sense for consistency with coverage of other games, so per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I don't think this should even have to go through a proposal. All the other boss levels have their own pages.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal; it makes navigation easier and lines up with how we already handle it for other games. (And for the record, short articles are fine: see [[Bowser's Sourpuss Bread]], which succinctly explains its role rather than being padded out for length concerns.)


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Admittedly, this vote is largely a matter of preference--we just don't like Vector that much--but we can't think of any real reason to switch to Vector 2010 as the default over the current Monobook beyond the mentioned text spacing; while that is a nice boon, we personally find the weird gradient buttons for the various tabs up top a little grating looking, and we're a fan of the more compact design that Monobook provides--though, this is likely a byproduct of our personal preference for more neatly packed web design. And uh, the less said about the other two options (Vector 2022, and. Timeless. <s>Which is the most dated theme possible, namely to mid-2010s mobile web design.</s>), the better. If you like Vector 2010, that's great, and we're fine with that! Heck, if anyone likes Vector 2022 or Timeless, that's cool too, and more power to them! Variety is the spice of life, after all. But switching it to the default is something that should not be taken lightly, and the reasons for a switch in this proposal feel a little too loosey-goosey for us, we're sorry.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per Camwoodstock.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I like how MonoBook looks a little more than Vector. It is what I am comfortable with. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
#{{User|Drago}} Per Nintendo101. I actually prefer the smaller text of Monobook since you can see more of the page at once. I also want to point out that although logged-in users like us can change the skin in preferences, we'd still be forcing the change on logged-out users.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Drago.
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Nintendo101 and Drago. I just don't see any reason to make this change.
#{{User|Altendo}} I'm saying this as a Vector-2010 skin user, and I'll say that people have their preferences. I live Vector-2010 because that is how Wikipedia at least used to look before they switched to Vector (2022); On Wikipedia, Vector was renamed to Vector legacy (2010), while Vector 2022 is named Vector (2022). Although I do prefer Vector-2010, I know a lot of people that prefer Monobook, and even if not, this can be changed in the preferences. No need to change the default skin. I get that IPs can't change their appearance, but aside from that, users can, and what they see doesn't have to be default on the wiki. Everyone can change what they specifically see.


====Comments====
====Comments====
Wouldn't this be creating a bunch of stub articles? Is there sufficient information for all of these characters outside of their battles to warrant separate pages from their battles? For some bosses, I think this makes sense and I also think its good for the wiki to be consistent, but are we solving one "problem" and then creating twelve more by making twelve stub articles? {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 22:16, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
{{@|Camwoodstock}} That is true that it's a major change. It's based mainly upon impression from newcomers from them seeing a more prominent edit tab, slightly larger text size, and other minor details like tab names that are easier to read (including a collapsible feature for the lesser used tab). The skin change was based on old Wikipedia research at the time (like how WikiLove was a result of their research). I have no strong feelings whether this passes or not. Although it's vague, since there's no way to tell the statistics (and the wiki's already successful at the moment), I still have a feeling it could help some, but to each their own. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:32, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:Looking at "[[Special:ShortPages|Short Pages]], when it isn't being filled with small disambiguation articles, articles with imminent deletions, or ''[[Mario Kart Arcade GP]]'' items, even the shortest Wario articles don't really come close to the articles featured here. The shortest Wario-related article we could find isn't even as short as the recently-split ''[[Speed Mario Bros.]]''. While we aren't personally voting (we'd like to see an example draft of what the split articles look like before voting conclusively), we don't feel like article length is a particularly strong reason to be afraid when [[Pesky Billboard]] is an article so small that you could fit its textual content in a floppy disk's boot sector. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:46, June 19, 2024 (EDT)
:We feel like if anybody would be capable of providing any statistics on skin usage, it'd be Porple, but even then, we don't actually know if that's one of the things he tracks, and it feels a little silly to pester him over this of all things... ;p {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:55, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:Also, "stub" doesn't mean "short page", it means "page with too little information". If there's not a lot to talk about, then it's perfectly fine for a page to be short and still be complete, so brevity doesn't automatically make it a stub. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:11, June 20, 2024 (EDT)


===Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for ''Yoshi's Island'' pages===
I'm okay with opposition, but in case of misunderstanding, this proposal isn't about personal preferences so much as what I believe to be a more ergonomic interface to a wider audience. I know we're not Wikipedia, but there's also the consideration that they've used the Vector skin longer than they had for MonoBook. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:45, December 19, 2024 (EST)
This is based on two proposals that have passed. [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Rename pages with the full Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars title|One proposal]] was about using "(''Super Mario RPG'')" as a disambiguation identifier over the full "(''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'')" title due to the [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|Switch remake]] not using the "''Legend of the Seven Stars''" subtitle from the [[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|original SNES title]] while still calling it just "''Super Mario RPG''," and [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Donkey Kong Country 2 and Donkey Kong Country 3 pages|the other]] was about using the "(''Donkey Kong Country 2'')" and "(''Donkey Kong Country 3'')" as a disambiguation identifier over the full "(''Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest'')" and "(''Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!'')" titles, respectively, due to not only the [[Donkey Kong Country 2 (Game Boy Advance)|GBA remake]] not using the "''Diddy's Kong Quest''" subtitle from the [[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest|original SNES title]] while still calling it "''Donkey Kong Country 2''," but also the [[Donkey Kong Country 3 (Game Boy Advance)|other GBA remake]] not using the "''Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!''" subtitle from the [[Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!|original SNES title]] while still calling it "''Donkey Kong Country 3''." In both cases, it would be easier to navigate and would look nicer because the page title is not so overly long in comparison.
:If it's what "you believe", then it ultimately (and probably unavoidably) is about personal preferences. Anyway, another consideration is the fact that people often prefer what they're used to. I feel like how long this wiki has used its skin is more relevant than how long Wikipedia has. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:39, December 19, 2024 (EST)
::{{@|Hewer}} I suppose I'm overthinking the ergonomic interface. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:19, December 20, 2024 (EST)


This proposal is the same as before, except that articles rather concern ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' (an idea also suggested in the two aforementioned proposals, one for ''Super Mario RPG'' and the other for both ''Donkey Kong Country 2'' and ''Donkey Kong Country 3''). As a [[Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3|GBA game]] is named "''Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3''" instead of "''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''," it contains a remake that has entirely omitted the subtitle from the SNES original much like the Switch remake of ''Super Mario RPG'' and the GBA remakes of ''Donkey Kong Country 2'' and ''Donkey Kong Country 3'', yet articles that make use of a full title of the original SNES iteration (see [[:Category:Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island worlds|Category:Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island worlds]] per example). Perhaps it would be much easier to navigate once the identifiers went from "(''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')" to simply "(''Yoshi's Island'')." I believe that this makes sense because both the original SNES iteration and the GBA remake are still called "''Yoshi's Island''," and it is the same as what we have done with the ''Super Mario RPG'', ''Donkey Kong Country 2'', and ''Donkey Kong Country 3'' identifiers.
==Miscellaneous==
===Use official alt text as a source===
{{early notice|December 24}}
What I refer to here as "{{wp|alt attribute|alt text}}" is text that is either:
*shown in place of a file, such as an image, when the file doesn't load;
*shown as a small note when you hover your mouse on an image on PC. See for yourself with this pic: [[File:Artwork - SUPER STAR.svg|30px|This is a Mario Star.]]


'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
To quote the Wiki article I linked above, alt text "is used to increase accessibility and user friendliness, including for blind internet users who rely on special software for web browsing."
'''Deadline''': June 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
Nintendo's web content makes hefty use of this feature, particularly in [[Cat Transformation Center#Decorations|activities]] [[Holiday Create-a-Card (2024)#Decorations|on the]] [[Paper Mario: The Origami King Collage Maker#Decorations|Play Nintendo]] [[Nintendo Online Calendar Creator#Decorations 3|site]], where it is employed for decorative stickers users can select and manipulate. Alt text is certainly a unique means to convey information that, currently, is not treated in any the entries laid out in the wiki's "[[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|acceptable sources for naming]]", including entry 2 concerning web material, and hasn't been discussed to my knowledge. Since alt text can bear information of its own, as explained below, it might be time we decided if this quaint thing should be supported in the policy.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer


====Oppose====
The following aspects should be kept in mind as a decision is made on this topic:
#{{User|Hewer}} Per my comment on the matter last time: it replaces (and reorders) the subtitle rather than just removing it, so we've never had a game just called ''Yoshi's Island'', and I don't know of any other time we've used a title for a game identifier that isn't actually a title for a game. "[[Yoshi's Island]]" also isn't quite as immediately obvious what it refers to compared to "Super Mario RPG", "Donkey Kong Country 2", or "Donkey Kong Country 3". I think this is going a bit too far and ends up a little more confusing than helpful.
*tempting as it may be, alt text cannot be construed as internal material in the way filenames are. A filename, whether pertaining to a file in a video game or [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider_Nintendo's_website_filenames_being_used_as_a_source|a file on a web page]], serves a utilitarian purpose that is, above all, an organizational tool meant to aid the developers of said game or website. Contrarily, the very purpose of alt text is to be seen by the end user (that is, the regular Joe or Jane the product is being shown to) under special circumstances.
#{{user|Dive Rocket Launcher}} As the person who originally [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Donkey Kong Country 2 and Donkey Kong Country 3 pages|spitballed this]]... yeah, thinking about it, this would probably do more harm than good.
*on the other hand, alt text may display some level of unprofessionality or unfamiliarity with the source material on the part of its author--that is to say, it can lend to some pretty weird information about a given subject. The few examples I've come across are an [https://web.archive.org/web/20221204022632/https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/nintendo-holiday-ornament-creator/ ornament resembling a mushroom item being referred to as a "Toad ornament"] <small>(play.nintendo.com via archive.org)</small>, [[Koopa Paratroopa]] [https://web.archive.org/web/20210810004641/https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/nintendo-online-calendar-creator being called a "Koopa Flying Trooper"] <small>(play.nintendo.com via archive.org)</small>, and [[Meowser]] [https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/bowsers-fury-cat-photo-booth/ being called "Cat Bowser"] <small>(play.nintendo.com)</small>. I'd like to stress that '''this is far from the norm''', as evident in those links--Mario is called "Mario", Goomba is "Goomba" etc., heck, some lesser known characters like {{iw|nookipedia|Lottie}}, {{iw|nookipedia|Wardell}}, and {{iw|nookipedia|Niko}} from ''Animal Crossing'' are correctly identified in that Ornament Creator activity--, but I believe it's fair of me to show you a comprehensive image of the situation.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} We wouldn't know if it's referring to the [[Yoshi's Island (location)|island]] or the [[Yoshi's Island (series)|series]]. Calling them "Super Mario World 2" would be better.


====Comments====
Most importantly, beyond the typical "they offer unique names and spellings" claptrap, I've noticed that citing such material is genuinely practical in select situations. The one recent example that comes to mind is that the alt text of some Play Nintendo activities helped me delineate [[Gallery:Super Star#Notes|a few otherwise non-descript stars shown at Gallery:Super Star]]. The [[Super Star]] item, the one used in games to make player characters invincible, has in the past shared 2D graphics with the [[Power Star]] collectable McGuffins from 3D titles, so when identifying a given {{file link|MH Oct 4.svg|Star graphic}} with zero context to its nature, all bets are off; rather than resort to speculation and potentially erroneously place a [[Gallery:Miscellaneous stars|non-descript star graphic]] in the Super Star's gallery (as previously done), one can look up the graphic's alt text on Nintendo's website and use that as a crutch, if there's absolutely nothing else.
Just to clarify, is this proposal to make the identifier (''Yoshi's Island'') or (''Super Mario World 2'')? The former would make more sense, but the latter is what removing "the subtitle" from (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'') would entail. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 16:46, June 22, 2024 (EDT)


...Gunther, did you just literally copypasted [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Donkey Kong Country 2 and Donkey Kong Country 3 pages|my proposal]] to use as a basis of yours? The structure is quite similar and certain words and sentences being used are also the same. I would've appreciated if you didn't copypaste my proposal and sell it as if it's your own text (aka, ''plagiarism''), and instead proposed your idea in your own words. I mean, I didn't copypaste [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Rename pages with the full Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars title|Annalisa's proposal]] at all when I made my own proposal, did I? {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:47, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
I propose three options for handling material presented in this manner.
:Nope. Not at all. {{User:GuntherBB/sig}} 22:37, June 22, 2024 (EDT)
#'''Cite alt text the same way media, including other web content, is typically cited.''' This means that if a Goomba's alt text is "Toothy Mushroom" in a context where most or every other element from the Mario series is given their usual names, then "Toothy Mushroom" is treated as a valid alternate name for the Goomba, shown on the Goomba article, and referenced from the aforementioned alt text. As argued above, alt text is meant to be seen by the end user, placing it somewhere above level 6 (concerning internal game filenames) of the current [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|source priority policy]] under this option.
##Some exceptions can be made in this scenario. If, for instance, wiki users deem that a discrete piece of web content handles alt text in an overwhelmingly unprofessional manner, they may choose not to cite it. As a concrete example, the [https://web.archive.org/web/20241215120155/https://play.nintendo.com/activities/play/nintendo-online-calendar-creator/ 2024 Calendar Creator] activity at Play Nintendo reuses the exact same alt text from its 2023 iteration for its decorative stickers, even though said stickers changed. According to that activity, [[Cheep Cheep]]s are also called "[[Monty Mole]]s" and [[Pokey]]s are also called "[[Chain Chomp]]s". This obviously represents some level of carelessness that shouldn't be reflected on the wiki even if the content is technically official. However, it's also the exception, not the rule.
#'''Cite alt text only for redirects and/or when no other source is available for a given thing.''' This means that "Koopa Flying Trooper" and "Cat Bowser" will be removed from the [[Koopa Paratroopa]] and [[Meowser]] pages respectively, but will remain as redirects to these pages. The explanations at [[Gallery:Super Star#Notes]] and [[Gallery:Miscellaneous mushrooms#Notes]] will remain as well, because alt text is currently the only means to identify certain graphics on those pages as being a particular type of star or mushroom.
#'''Do not cite alt text in any of the ways described above.'''


==Miscellaneous==
'''Note:''' The articles concerning the Play Nintendo activities mentioned above ([[Cat Transformation Center]], [[Paper Mario: The Origami King Collage Maker]] etc.) will continue to list the alt text of each graphic as captions regardless of the proposal's outcome. This provides quick cross-referencing to someone who really wants to know how a decoration is called in those activities.
===Allow quotes of characters being voiced by their official actors in unofficial media===
Voice actors whose performances are heard in official works may also go on to voice their usual character(s) unofficially, such as [https://youtu.be/RTGzcEz4Dgo?si=Qtkl7ctAXSZUmerc Charles Martinet having fun as Mario, Luigi, and Wario on a trip to Chile in a series of Vines] or the voice actors of the DKC cartoon reprising their roles in the fan-made ''Return to Krocodile Isle'', with the former example [[List_of_Mario_quotes#Charles_Martinet's_profile_on_Vine_and_Instagram|already being quoted on the wiki]]. What this proposal aims to do is explicitly enable the practice of quoting unofficial performances through a statement at [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Fan work by creators officially involved with the brand|MarioWiki:Coverage, section "Fan work by creators officially involved with the brand"]], specifically as an extension to its policy on fan artwork. To be eligible on the wiki, the quotes must only reproduce lines of dialog that are perceived as directly tied to the character in a given piece of media, and not frivolous performances that can be determined to be demonstrations of skill on the part of the performer while they are engaged in an interview or other such interaction. For instance:
*Charles Martinet cracking jokes about crabs in those Vines '''will be allowed to be quoted''', because the lines can be attributed to the Mario Bros. figures shown in the video.
*Charles Martinet saying "[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K2xTvwkkK50 All toasters, toast toastie!]" in his Mario voice at a convention panel is '''not to be quoted''' because Martinet is still being himself as he changes his pitch to sound like Mario.
*even outtakes '''can be quoted''' as long as they are incorporated into a fictional blooper portraying the character being interpreted, Pixar-style. [[Ben Campbell]]'s King K. Rool [https://twitter.com/ArtOfAlexH/status/1788187903249539358 stutters and says a bad word while singing a line in front of a mic.]


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': December 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support: cite alt text for everything, including unique names====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} <!--This image contains alt text that shows my support of the proposal. It is not just a random pic.-->[[File:Go Mario.png|40px|Per proposal!]]
#{{User|Hewer}} I'd think alt text would be covered under "web content" in the naming policy. There's no reason for it not to be, given that it's official text, and is more intended to be seen by the end user than image filenames, which [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider_Nintendo's_website_filenames_being_used_as_a_source|we already agreed are fine]]. If something's obviously a mistake, we can say that without discrediting the whole source, like we already do with other sources (e.g. the [[Cleft]] article acknowledging the "Moon Cleft" name from Super Paper Mario despite deeming it "mistaken").
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} <!--Same bit as KCC's vote, don't remove it please.-->[[File:WL4-Smile.png|The future is now, old man! We're in an era of Bluesky and screen reader compatibility! Okay, jokes aside, we're a little surprised that alt text hasn't been accounted for already, given it has been around the internet for a very, very long time. Still, better late than never, we suppose. Per proposal, and Hewer especially!]]
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Hewer
#{{User|Altendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} [[File:Yoshijumpjoy.gif|Per Hewer.]]
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per everyone.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} [[File:Spear Guy.gif]]
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} <!--Same bit as the others with alt texts!!--> [[File:Poisonl.gif|It's kind of surprising how this hasn't been implemented nor standard in some way yet - there's no reason that it isn't! I'm all for increased accessibility and the use of accessibility features such as alt text. Per all.]]
#{{User|Technetium}} [[File:HM Proto Toad.gif|Per all.]]
#{{User|Pseudo}} [[File:ToadetteYakumanDS.gif|50px|Per all.]]
#{{User|Axii}} [[File:MKSC Luigi Blimp.png|85px|Per proposal.png]]
 
====Support: only cite alt text for redirects and/or if there is no other source available====


====Support====
====Oppose: do not cite alt text at all====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Chile today, hot tamale!
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Honestly surprised this wasn't already a thing. Mostly because "It's a hibiscus! Oh, hello-biscus." is firmly wedged in our lexicon, but also because this feels like a very natural extension of our coverage. Maybe it's because quotes pages go generally under the radar? At any rate, these feel like natural inclusions to those pages.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal. This definitely seems within the wiki’s scope as a semi-official semi-unofficial portrayal of these characters.
#{{User|Hewer}} This feels like a reasonable extension of the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Allow/prohibit fan work by former Nintendo staff|proposal]] to allow fanart from people who officially worked on the franchise, so sure, per proposal. Though we should probably give them some separation (like their own section) on quotes pages to make it clear they're not strictly official.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} No harm in having these, sure.


====Oppose====
====Comments (alt text proposal)====
RE the "Toad Ornament": I think it's worth mentioning that calling some type of mushroom item a "Toad" is [[1-Up Mushroom#Hotel Mario|not unheard of]] in official works. But ok, it's less likely the typist of that Play Nintendo activity was thinking of Hotel Mario, and more likely they just confused Super Mushrooms with Toads due to their similar appearances. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:45, December 17, 2024 (EST)


====Comments====
[[File:SMBS Icicle Sharp X1.png|frame|left]]
I don't know if [https://youtu.be/bVcxP1FnU-M?t=856 this] fits. Jack Black pretends to be Bowser and even puts on a small show when he enters the stage, with lights flickering and a throne as prop and whatnot--but that's still just a cute segue into an interview with Jack Black. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:27, June 17, 2024 (EDT)
@OmegaRuby: The proposal itself is about allowing alt text to be considered a valid source, not broadening usage of alt text as a whole. ''That being said'', on that note, I do wonder if we could perhaps do just that (likely as part of another proposal), mostly in the context of sprites--such as this example on the left from the [[Icicle]] article. A usual caption would absolutely not fit on this, but alt text could help provide something for a screenreader to read out. The main issue is that, to my knowledge, the "frame" parameter inherently means the alt text ''is'' the caption, which could cause issues if we need the actual, well, frame... {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:43, December 18, 2024 (EST)

Latest revision as of 22:42, December 22, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Monday, December 23rd, 05:33 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  2. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  3. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  8. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  14. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  15. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  16. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  17. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  18. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  19. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  20. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Below is an example of what your proposal must look like. If you are unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. When updating the bracketed variables with actual information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Determine how to handle the Tattle Log images from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), Technetium (ended November 30, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page

This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more Super Mario games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for Mario, Bowser, and many other recurring subjects.

Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.

For example, let's say for Luigi in his appearance in Mario Sports Superstars, there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:

For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see here.

The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.
  2. Hewer (talk) I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.

Oppose

Comments

@Hewer I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)

Add an abbreviation template to type out full game titles

This proposal is about creating a template that it makes it easier to type out full game titles. Although The Legend of Zelda games generally have longer titles (and Zelda Wiki even has templates for some of their shorter titled games, like Hyrule Warriors, here), there have still been cases in which some game titles are uncomfortably long, such as Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! or Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, and while it may seem like not a big deal to some, it would be a small quality-of-life improvement if we could have a template where we input the abbreviation, and the output becomes the game title.

For example, {{a|M&LSS}} would result in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (complete with italics formatting). Meanwhile, {{a|M&LSS|l}} to link to the game, outputting Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, although depending on who creates the template, it could be vice versa, like it links by default and {{a|M&LSS|n}} would prevent a link.

Since Super Mario has several releases, it may get difficult maintaining with all the abbreviations, and there have been cases where two games have shared the same abbreviation. (e.g. SMS for both Mario Sunshine and Mario Strikers). In that case, either {{a|SMS|2002}} (with the year of release) or a custom abbreviation (e.g. {{a|SMShine}}) would be needed (personally I'd prefer the latter).

Consider we already have similar templates for Princess Peach and Princess Daisy (i.e. {{Peach}} and {{Daisy}}), and both of their full titles (with "Princess" included) is a lot shorter than the two game titles in the first paragraph.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) We don't see the harm in this, even if it would admittedly be fairly niche. The only real complaint we have is the lack of an additional parameter for changing the displayed text, so if we need to say something like "in the remake", we have to write that out the old-fashioned way.
  3. EvieMaybe (talk) might make some link-heavy pages lighter!
  4. Salmancer (talk) Words cannot express the relief that my fingers would feel if they never have to type out "Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey" again.
  5. Tails777 (talk) Mario already took my example, but it still stands; the amount of times I've had to type out that title (or even the abbreviation for it) was incredibly annoying. Per all.

Oppose

Comments

@Camwoodstock Such a parameter can always be added to the template. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:18, December 18, 2024 (EST)

Salmancer: Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games might be the other worst game title I've had to type out. Mario (Santa)'s map icon from Mario Kart Tour Mario-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 00:59, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Damn it, that was gonna be my example! Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate15:34, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Broaden the scope of the {{rewrite}} template and its variations

With the previous proposal having passed with being more specific as the most voted, I've come up with a proposal about the possibility to make the {{rewrite}}, {{rewrite-expand}}, and {{rewrite-remove}} templates more specific. As you can see, these templates are missing some smaller text. As such, I am just wondering if there is a possibility to have the smaller text added to the {{rewrite}}, {{rewrite-expand}}, and {{rewrite-remove}} templates.

First of all, the {{rewrite}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten.

However, once the proposal passes, the {{rewrite}} template will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article.

And another thing—the {{rewrite-expand}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information.

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-expand}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information.{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by filling in the missing details.

Lastly, the {{rewrite-remove}} currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): ???

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-remove}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s):{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): <reason(s)>.
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by removing the unnecessary details.

That will be a perfect idea to make the {{rewrite}} template and its variations as more specific as the {{media missing}} and {{unreferenced}} templates. That way, we'll be able to add smaller text to the remaining notice templates in the future.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: December 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

  1. Altendo (talk) As far as I can tell, the proposal that was linked added parameters that allowed what was supposed to be referenced to be referenced. This one simply adds a subtitle to the bottom of each template. "Be more specific" does not mean saying general information and helpful links, but rather exactly what needs to be done; in terms of that, the existing templates not only all already have parameters, but filling them out is enforced. As Nightwicked Bowser said, "Be more specific - Similar to this proposal, what exactly needs references must be specified in the template when putting it in the article. A parameter for this will still need to be added." This only adds a subtitle and does not make this "more specific". As for the changes, this is actually harmful in some way, as the (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}}) tag will be added to the subtitle, rather than the main body, which could make it more confusing in my opinion. Feel free to update this and add in what "more specific" actually means, or just change this to "add subtitles" and change the location of (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}}) to the main body, but until then, my vote is staying here.
  2. Mario (talk) Best to keep things simple with these improvement templates.

Comments

Here's how I would fix some things:

First of all, the {{rewrite}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten.

However, once the proposal passes, the {{rewrite}} template will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten'''{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}}.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten for the following reasons:
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article.

And another thing—the {{rewrite-expand}} template currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Reason:''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information.

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-expand}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded''' to include more information{{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{2}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by filling in the missing details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten and expanded to include more information for the following reasons:
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by filling in the missing details.

Lastly, the {{rewrite-remove}} currently reads as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have <u>{{{content|{{{1|content<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}</u> '''removed''' for the following reason(s): {{{reason|{{{2|???<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}}}}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s): ???

However, once this proposal passes, the {{rewrite-remove}} will read as follows: 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#9CF;border:1px solid #000">
It has been requested that this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' to have {{#if:{{{content|{{{1|}}}}}}|<u>{{{content|{{{1}}}}}}</u>|content}} '''removed''' {{#if:{{{reason|{{{2|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> for the following reasons:{{{reason|{{{2}}}}}}|.<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}{{#if:{{{date|{{{3|}}}}}}|<nowiki/> (tagged on {{{date|{{{3}}}}}})}}<br><small>Please review the [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] and [[MarioWiki:Good writing|good writing standards]] and help {{plain link|{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}}|improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}}} by removing the unnecessary details.</small>
</div>

It has been requested that this article be rewritten to have content removed for the following reason(s):
Please review the Manual of Style and good writing standards and help improve this article by removing the unnecessary details.

This should fix some things, and I also recommend you change the title or at least context of this proposal. If so, then I might change my vote. Altendo 19:58, December 9, 2024 (EST)

I fixed this problem for you. How does it look? GuntherBayBeee.jpgGuntherBayBeeeGravity Rush Kat.png 09:40, December 10, 2024 (EST)

Decide what to do with Template:Move infobox

A while ago (November 4th, specifically), I created Template:Move infobox. After all, we had templates for essentially all the Browse tabs on the wiki sidebar, except for moves. There WERE templates about specific types of moves, such as Template:M&L attack infobox, but no general template in the same vein as items, characters, species, games, locations, etc.

I discussed it on the Discord briefly, nobody said no, and a bit of feedback later about how it should look and what it should have, I created it. It has since been applied to exactly four pages at the time of writing, half of which I was the one to apply it to. In hindsight, this could've used with a proposal instead of me just making it, so here's a belated one.

Should we keep Template:Move infobox around? If we do keep it, is it good as is, or does it need changes?

Proposer: EvieMaybe (talk)
Deadline: January 1st, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Keep Move infobox, as is

  1. Sparks (talk) I can see this template working really well for moves that aren't in every Mario game, like Spin. This has lots of potential!
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) We don't see why not--having a dedicated Moves infobox could come in handy, especially if we get any more Mario RPGs in the wake of the weird little renaissance period we've been getting with the back-to-back-to-back SMRPG remake, TTYD remake, and release of Brothership. Per proposal.
  4. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Technetium (talk) Per proposal.

Keep Move infobox, but with changes

Delete Move infobox

Move infobox Comments

Considering the nature of the attack infoboxes, wouldn't it be weird to have moves all in purple but a Mario & Luigi attack use yellow and green and a Paper Mario attack use white and green? Should there be variants of the Move infobox to match the color schemes of existing templates? If an article is covering multiple related moves, how will the infobox work? (ex. Handstand, Cap Throw, Roll, Slide Kick... there's more of these than I thought). What happens when a move is referenced in somewhat less "move-y" ways? Okay, that last one is kinda strange, but basically I mean "dashing" in Super Mario Run is just a fancy animation, Mario & Luigi Dream Team has an animation where Giant Luigi crouches (with posing and skidding clearly meant to be a platformer callback), to slide under an attack. Do these instances get incorporated into the infobox? Continuing the train of thought, what about sports games? Yoshi can Flutter Jump as his special action on Mario & Sonic games. Does that count as a method of input for a Flutter Jump? Salmancer (talk) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)

that's a lot of very interesting questions!
  • i went with purple to set it apart from the already taken light red (game), green and white (character), blue (level), pink (location), grey (item) and navy/grey (species) infoboxes. changing the color could be a good idea.
  • as for sorting which moves "count" or not, we have to decide these things for other types of subject too, after all, and they get infoboxes. it's a valid concern, though! eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 15:09, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"

There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?

Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.

This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.

Proposer: Mario (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Blank support

  1. Mario (talk) Per all.
  2. Ray Trace (talk) Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
  3. PopitTart (talk) (This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)
  4. Altendo (talk) (Look at the code for my reasoning)
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk)
  6. OmegaRuby (talk) While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really are just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at all. (Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)
  7. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
  8. TheDarkStar (talk) - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
  9. Ninja Squid (talk) Per proposal.
  10. Tails777 (talk) It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.

Blank Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
  2. Technetium (talk) I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone does provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type two words.
  5. Jdtendo (talk) Per all (is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)
  6. Axii (talk) Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
  7. Pseudo (talk) Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
  8. Hooded Pitohui (talk) I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides some insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
  9. Mister Wu (talk) Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
  10. DesaMatt (talk) Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.

Blank Comments

I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. Mario (Santa)'s map icon from Mario Kart Tour Mario-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)

I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
@Mario I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. Super Mario RPG (talk) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)

Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. Mario (Santa)'s map icon from Mario Kart Tour Mario-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)

Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. Technetium (talk) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring a written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. Salmancer (talk) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)

Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on December 25 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

The aims of this proposal is to repeal this one that passed earlier this year. I will reiterate my position here:

The planetary bodies in galaxies do not just "lack" publicly accessible names - they are straight up not supposed to have names. The Shogakukan guidebook for Mario Galaxy does not give planets name. The game does not give planets name. The instruction booklet does not give planets name. The only "source" that applies discrete names for planets are from the developers and we have no reason to think these were intended to be the planets. These galaxy articles are generally a bit outdated, and I think the mistake in the first place was suggesting that some of the planets have real names "except where otherwise noted." They largely do not. I think it would would healthier to recognize that they are just different sections of a greater whole, much like areas in courses for the earlier 3D games, and apply titles accordingly.

To elaborate on my perspective, I think using dev data to provide names for these planets is completely fine, and I understand the desire to do so. Citing the Prima Games guidebooks for potential names for these areas is fine. That is not what this proposal is about. Rather, integrating the templates themselves - be it for conjectural or dev data-derived names - underneath the individual headers for each planet, in my view, looks very poor, as you can see here for Yoshi Star Galaxy and Honeyhive Galaxy. They are detractingly eye-catching and break these articles without substantive benefit. I think having a nonintrusive note at the top or bottom of these articles - as was the case before the proposal I link to above passed - is perfectly sufficient and healthier for these articles.

I provide two options:

  1. Support: Do not put conjectural and dev-data name templates beneath the names of individual planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games: This is a full repeal of the proposal I link to above.
  2. Oppose: Change nothing

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support: Do not put templates underneath the name's of planets and areas

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. 1468z (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) The previous solution looked a lot nicer. I also agree with Nintendo101 that we should rethink how we approach planet names in general. They don't necessarily "need" names any more than specific portions of levels in other games do.
  4. Jdtendo (talk) I still don't agree with the "planets are not supposed to have names" argument, but I do agree that having templates beneath every section heading is excessive.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Waluigi time. The overall assumption that the planets have names unless otherwise stated feels like the consequence of a decision made very, very early on into the wiki, that's just kind of gone unquestioned or unnoticed until very recently. This won't stop that particular case of WikiJank™ completely, but it's a step in the right direction.
  6. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  7. EvieMaybe (talk) if all the names are unofficial, then we only need to say it once. if there's an official name, we can just say "all names are unofficial unless specified" and specify in the one planet that has a name (is there any planets with names even???). having the template on each individual section is both ugly and inefficient
  8. Mario (talk) Yeah, the setup before this was satisfactory. Per Evie, but I also agree with Waluigi Time that we probably don't need to require naming these parts of the level either.
  9. Ray Trace (talk) I always thought assigning these objects meant to be part of the environment conjectural templates has always struck me as odd and I don't know why only Super Mario Galaxy gets singled out out of all games. We don't name the rooms the Mario Party minigames take place in.
  10. Tails777 (talk) I was sincerely confused when I saw the templates put back on the various galaxy articles and questioned "Why? It was better beforehand." Per all.
  11. Hooded Pitohui (talk) In the longer-term, WT and Nintendo101 bring up points which ought to be considered. In the shorter term, this would be a beneficial first step to de-cluttering these sections for better readability.
  12. Ninja Squid (talk) Per all.
  13. Technetium (talk) Per Nintendo101, Waluigi Time, and Porple's comment below.
  14. MCD (talk) Per N101, WT and Porple below. I also agree our attitude on what counts as "conjectural" when it comes to naming planets needs a rethink, i.e. it's not conjecture to call the planet the player starts on the "starting planet" because that's just a factual description. (Also, why does Starting Planet just redirect to a random galaxy? lol)

Oppose: Keep the templates

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) I'm opposing this proposal as currently slated to be implemented — as in, just removing Template:Conjecture and Template:Dev data from these sections and leaving it at that. These need to be marked, and I don't feel that an "unless otherwise noted" disclaimer is an elegant way to do that. However. There is a way of accomplishing this that I would be amenable to: replacing those templates with Template:Conjectural or a new dev data equivalent to it. This is the same way our glitch pages do it, for exactly the same reason you want to get rid of these templates on the galaxy pages. I think it makes perfect sense to use this convention here as well to solve this problem.

Comments on the planet template proposal

I agree that we don't need the repeated templates, and the whole naming situation of the planets is a bit odd. Rather than giving the planets capitalized "names" (e.g. "Starting Planet") and noting them as conjectural, they should just be described in sentence case, at which point it should be somewhat obvious that it's a description and not a "name". For example, section heading "Starting planet" and text "The starting planet has..." You could do a single {{conjecture|subsections=yes}} under the "Planets" heading if you really wanted to, but I think if we removed all the inappropriate capitalization then even that wouldn't be necessary. --Steve (talk) Get Firefox 20:11, December 19, 2024 (EST)

Set Vector-2010 to the default wiki skin

This proposal is about setting the 2010 Vector as the default wiki skin (screenshot here) for desktop users, with the focus being on people who are new to wikis in particular, while obviously keeping the existing MonoBook skin as an option. What made me think to create this proposal is when I made a Talk:Main Page proposal about the to-do list tasks and how they are more accessible than clicking the "Wiki maintenance" on the sidebar, I had to uncomfortably squint to find "Wiki maintenance" on the wiki sidebar. But Vector-2010 has the sidebar links slightly larger and a bit more spaced out. With the existing interface, there could be some who may struggle to find options listed on the sidebar.

While we're clearly different from Wikipedia (that's why I'm not Vector-2022, since it'd be too much of a departure and likely uncomfortable for several), I do want to refer to this page, which summarizes why Wikipedia transitioned to it. Though it is vague, they cite accessibility as the reason, which I think this wiki has been taking steps toward doing.

I'll cite my reasons for preferring Vector and applying this to possible people who are visiting a wiki for the first time. The text is larger, which is especially important for larger screen monitors, some of the lesser used tabs are collapsible on the sidebar, summarizing the most commonly used options, and the user links at the top right are also more noticeable and less close to the body of the article where the content is read.

Though it could take time getting used to the Edit button being on the right (not to mention the search button), the button is at least larger, making it more usable on even lower quality screen monitors, and I like how it's separate from the Page and discussion options, meaning that options that involve viewing articles are on the left while options that involve editing or changing the page in some form are on the right.

If this proposal passes and others don't like the change, they can always return to the MonoBook option in their preferences.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.

Oppose

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Admittedly, this vote is largely a matter of preference--we just don't like Vector that much--but we can't think of any real reason to switch to Vector 2010 as the default over the current Monobook beyond the mentioned text spacing; while that is a nice boon, we personally find the weird gradient buttons for the various tabs up top a little grating looking, and we're a fan of the more compact design that Monobook provides--though, this is likely a byproduct of our personal preference for more neatly packed web design. And uh, the less said about the other two options (Vector 2022, and. Timeless. Which is the most dated theme possible, namely to mid-2010s mobile web design.), the better. If you like Vector 2010, that's great, and we're fine with that! Heck, if anyone likes Vector 2022 or Timeless, that's cool too, and more power to them! Variety is the spice of life, after all. But switching it to the default is something that should not be taken lightly, and the reasons for a switch in this proposal feel a little too loosey-goosey for us, we're sorry.
  2. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per Camwoodstock.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) I like how MonoBook looks a little more than Vector. It is what I am comfortable with. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
  4. Drago (talk) Per Nintendo101. I actually prefer the smaller text of Monobook since you can see more of the page at once. I also want to point out that although logged-in users like us can change the skin in preferences, we'd still be forcing the change on logged-out users.
  5. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Drago.
  6. Technetium (talk) Per Nintendo101 and Drago. I just don't see any reason to make this change.
  7. Altendo (talk) I'm saying this as a Vector-2010 skin user, and I'll say that people have their preferences. I live Vector-2010 because that is how Wikipedia at least used to look before they switched to Vector (2022); On Wikipedia, Vector was renamed to Vector legacy (2010), while Vector 2022 is named Vector (2022). Although I do prefer Vector-2010, I know a lot of people that prefer Monobook, and even if not, this can be changed in the preferences. No need to change the default skin. I get that IPs can't change their appearance, but aside from that, users can, and what they see doesn't have to be default on the wiki. Everyone can change what they specifically see.

Comments

@Camwoodstock That is true that it's a major change. It's based mainly upon impression from newcomers from them seeing a more prominent edit tab, slightly larger text size, and other minor details like tab names that are easier to read (including a collapsible feature for the lesser used tab). The skin change was based on old Wikipedia research at the time (like how WikiLove was a result of their research). I have no strong feelings whether this passes or not. Although it's vague, since there's no way to tell the statistics (and the wiki's already successful at the moment), I still have a feeling it could help some, but to each their own. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:32, December 18, 2024 (EST)

We feel like if anybody would be capable of providing any statistics on skin usage, it'd be Porple, but even then, we don't actually know if that's one of the things he tracks, and it feels a little silly to pester him over this of all things... ;p ~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:55, December 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm okay with opposition, but in case of misunderstanding, this proposal isn't about personal preferences so much as what I believe to be a more ergonomic interface to a wider audience. I know we're not Wikipedia, but there's also the consideration that they've used the Vector skin longer than they had for MonoBook. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:45, December 19, 2024 (EST)

If it's what "you believe", then it ultimately (and probably unavoidably) is about personal preferences. Anyway, another consideration is the fact that people often prefer what they're used to. I feel like how long this wiki has used its skin is more relevant than how long Wikipedia has. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:39, December 19, 2024 (EST)
@Hewer I suppose I'm overthinking the ergonomic interface. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:19, December 20, 2024 (EST)

Miscellaneous

Use official alt text as a source

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on December 24 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

What I refer to here as "alt text" is text that is either:

  • shown in place of a file, such as an image, when the file doesn't load;
  • shown as a small note when you hover your mouse on an image on PC. See for yourself with this pic: This is a Mario Star.

To quote the Wiki article I linked above, alt text "is used to increase accessibility and user friendliness, including for blind internet users who rely on special software for web browsing."

Nintendo's web content makes hefty use of this feature, particularly in activities on the Play Nintendo site, where it is employed for decorative stickers users can select and manipulate. Alt text is certainly a unique means to convey information that, currently, is not treated in any the entries laid out in the wiki's "acceptable sources for naming", including entry 2 concerning web material, and hasn't been discussed to my knowledge. Since alt text can bear information of its own, as explained below, it might be time we decided if this quaint thing should be supported in the policy.

The following aspects should be kept in mind as a decision is made on this topic:

  • tempting as it may be, alt text cannot be construed as internal material in the way filenames are. A filename, whether pertaining to a file in a video game or a file on a web page, serves a utilitarian purpose that is, above all, an organizational tool meant to aid the developers of said game or website. Contrarily, the very purpose of alt text is to be seen by the end user (that is, the regular Joe or Jane the product is being shown to) under special circumstances.
  • on the other hand, alt text may display some level of unprofessionality or unfamiliarity with the source material on the part of its author--that is to say, it can lend to some pretty weird information about a given subject. The few examples I've come across are an ornament resembling a mushroom item being referred to as a "Toad ornament" (play.nintendo.com via archive.org), Koopa Paratroopa being called a "Koopa Flying Trooper" (play.nintendo.com via archive.org), and Meowser being called "Cat Bowser" (play.nintendo.com). I'd like to stress that this is far from the norm, as evident in those links--Mario is called "Mario", Goomba is "Goomba" etc., heck, some lesser known characters like Lottie, Wardell, and Niko from Animal Crossing are correctly identified in that Ornament Creator activity--, but I believe it's fair of me to show you a comprehensive image of the situation.

Most importantly, beyond the typical "they offer unique names and spellings" claptrap, I've noticed that citing such material is genuinely practical in select situations. The one recent example that comes to mind is that the alt text of some Play Nintendo activities helped me delineate a few otherwise non-descript stars shown at Gallery:Super Star. The Super Star item, the one used in games to make player characters invincible, has in the past shared 2D graphics with the Power Star collectable McGuffins from 3D titles, so when identifying a given Star graphicMedia:MH Oct 4.svg with zero context to its nature, all bets are off; rather than resort to speculation and potentially erroneously place a non-descript star graphic in the Super Star's gallery (as previously done), one can look up the graphic's alt text on Nintendo's website and use that as a crutch, if there's absolutely nothing else.

I propose three options for handling material presented in this manner.

  1. Cite alt text the same way media, including other web content, is typically cited. This means that if a Goomba's alt text is "Toothy Mushroom" in a context where most or every other element from the Mario series is given their usual names, then "Toothy Mushroom" is treated as a valid alternate name for the Goomba, shown on the Goomba article, and referenced from the aforementioned alt text. As argued above, alt text is meant to be seen by the end user, placing it somewhere above level 6 (concerning internal game filenames) of the current source priority policy under this option.
    1. Some exceptions can be made in this scenario. If, for instance, wiki users deem that a discrete piece of web content handles alt text in an overwhelmingly unprofessional manner, they may choose not to cite it. As a concrete example, the 2024 Calendar Creator activity at Play Nintendo reuses the exact same alt text from its 2023 iteration for its decorative stickers, even though said stickers changed. According to that activity, Cheep Cheeps are also called "Monty Moles" and Pokeys are also called "Chain Chomps". This obviously represents some level of carelessness that shouldn't be reflected on the wiki even if the content is technically official. However, it's also the exception, not the rule.
  2. Cite alt text only for redirects and/or when no other source is available for a given thing. This means that "Koopa Flying Trooper" and "Cat Bowser" will be removed from the Koopa Paratroopa and Meowser pages respectively, but will remain as redirects to these pages. The explanations at Gallery:Super Star#Notes and Gallery:Miscellaneous mushrooms#Notes will remain as well, because alt text is currently the only means to identify certain graphics on those pages as being a particular type of star or mushroom.
  3. Do not cite alt text in any of the ways described above.

Note: The articles concerning the Play Nintendo activities mentioned above (Cat Transformation Center, Paper Mario: The Origami King Collage Maker etc.) will continue to list the alt text of each graphic as captions regardless of the proposal's outcome. This provides quick cross-referencing to someone who really wants to know how a decoration is called in those activities.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: December 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support: cite alt text for everything, including unique names

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal!
  2. Hewer (talk) I'd think alt text would be covered under "web content" in the naming policy. There's no reason for it not to be, given that it's official text, and is more intended to be seen by the end user than image filenames, which we already agreed are fine. If something's obviously a mistake, we can say that without discrediting the whole source, like we already do with other sources (e.g. the Cleft article acknowledging the "Moon Cleft" name from Super Paper Mario despite deeming it "mistaken").
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) The future is now, old man! We're in an era of Bluesky and screen reader compatibility! Okay, jokes aside, we're a little surprised that alt text hasn't been accounted for already, given it has been around the internet for a very, very long time. Still, better late than never, we suppose. Per proposal, and Hewer especially!
  4. EvieMaybe (talk) per Hewer
  5. Altendo (talk) Per all.
  6. Nintendo101 (talk) Per Hewer.
  7. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per everyone.
  8. FanOfYoshi (talk) Spear Guy.gif
  9. OmegaRuby (talk) It's kind of surprising how this hasn't been implemented nor standard in some way yet - there's no reason that it isn't! I'm all for increased accessibility and the use of accessibility features such as alt text. Per all.
  10. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  11. Pseudo (talk) Per all.
  12. Axii (talk) Per proposal.png

Support: only cite alt text for redirects and/or if there is no other source available

Oppose: do not cite alt text at all

Comments (alt text proposal)

RE the "Toad Ornament": I think it's worth mentioning that calling some type of mushroom item a "Toad" is not unheard of in official works. But ok, it's less likely the typist of that Play Nintendo activity was thinking of Hotel Mario, and more likely they just confused Super Mushrooms with Toads due to their similar appearances. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:45, December 17, 2024 (EST)

Tsurara

@OmegaRuby: The proposal itself is about allowing alt text to be considered a valid source, not broadening usage of alt text as a whole. That being said, on that note, I do wonder if we could perhaps do just that (likely as part of another proposal), mostly in the context of sprites--such as this example on the left from the Icicle article. A usual caption would absolutely not fit on this, but alt text could help provide something for a screenreader to read out. The main issue is that, to my knowledge, the "frame" parameter inherently means the alt text is the caption, which could cause issues if we need the actual, well, frame... ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:43, December 18, 2024 (EST)

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