MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
===Standardize citations for archived pages===
===Include missions (and equivalencies) to subjects we put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style===
Many web pages that are used as citations on the Mario Wiki are no longer available at their original links. Consequently, the citations use links from web page archival sites such as archive.today or the Wayback Machine. This can be seen on articles that reference the English translation of the Mario Portal, such as [[Banzai Bill#References|Banzai Bill]], as well as other articles, such as [[Nintendo GameCube#References|Nintendo GameCube]]. Including archived citations is especially important for web pages that are volatile by design, such as [[Gallery:Accessories#Styluses|online store listings for merchandise]]. However, nowhere does [[MarioWiki:Citations]] feature a template for how to properly cite archived web pages; therefore, an example of a citation for an archived page should be created under the heading [[MarioWiki:Citations#What to put as references|What to put as references]].
The passing of this proposal would include the in-game [[mission]]s and equivalencies (i.e. episodes from ''Super Mario Sunshine'', objectives from ''Super Mario Odyssey'', etc.) to the subjects we put quotation marks around in our [[MarioWiki:Manual of Style#Italicizing titles|Manual of Style]].


'''EDIT:''' Per Koopa con Carne's comments, I've revised my recommendations for a standardized template below.
In reference material aimed at describing and chronicling creative works, putting quotation marks around certain types of subjects has become a [https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_works_cited_other_common_sources.html well-established practice]. This is acknowledged in our Manual of Style, in which it states that video games, TV series, and albums should be italicized, whereas individual music titles, named book chapters, and TV episodes should be within quotation marks. I am personally not a fan of adhering to traditions or standards just for the sake of it, but there are strong utilitarian reasons why this has become commonplace. Last year, I relayed what these were in a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#Do not surround song titles with quotes|proposal]] that aimed to remove quotation marks from song titles, stating:
<blockquote>The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a ''greater whole'' (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in ''The Color of Water''. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of ''Resident Alien''. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the Super Mario franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "[[Gusty Garden Galaxy (theme)|Gusty Garden Galaxy]]" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and [[Gusty Garden Galaxy]] is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.
</blockquote>
I hope this adequately explains why I think this is a good practice for us as editors, and how this benefits visitors to our site.


The current basic template for citations of non-archived pages looks like this:
I would like us to explicitly include [[mission]]s as subjects we should put quotation marks around. This is something I do already on the wiki because I have always perceived them as scenarios within a creative work, much like a TV episode or named chapter in a novel. They often even have unique narrative elements. Consequently, presenting them between quotation marks comes with the same benefit to readers. Proper levels (which I conceptualize as locations within the creative works we cover, not scenarios) have been given a diversity of different names through the franchise's history and many of them sound like they could be referring to scenarios. For folks browsing the wiki or reading an article covering a recurring subject, wouldn't it be nice to have some passive indication that [[Here Come the Hoppos]] is a level, whereas "[[Footrace with Koopa the Quick]]" is a scenario ''within'' a level? I think that'd provide helpful clarity.
<blockquote>Author Name (January 1, 2000). {{fake link|Link to Page on Live Web}}. ''Publisher''. Retrieved January 1, 2022.</blockquote>


In order to make citations of archived pages as simple as possible, they should ''only'' link to the archived page, followed by the date and timestamp (if available) of the archived page, along with the name of the archival website:
As an example of what this would look like in practice, I recommend the ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'' article, where I embraced this fully. I don't include quotation marks around missions in the level table because I feel that looks a little busy and they aren't as helpful there, but I always include them when I mention a mission within a sentence, just like I do with chapters and song titles. The only reason why I am making this proposal is because I have seen the quotation marks removed from mission names on other articles I have worked on, and I would rather we keep them. I think it is a good idea.
<blockquote>Author Name (January 1, 2000). {{fake link|Link to Archived Page}}. ''Publisher''. Archived January 1, 2000, 09:00:00 UTC via Archival Website. Retrieved January 1, 2022.</blockquote>


This is what an actual citation would look like under this standard, using one of the references on the Nintendo GameCube article as an example:
For clarification, <u>this proposal does not impact the names of actual ''levels''</u>, which I consider to be locations within the creative works we cover, regardless of how silly their names are in English. It is not commonplace to put quotation marks around the names of locations in creative works, and it would also defeat the intent behind this proposal. What would be the point of including quotation marks around "Big Bob-omb on the Summit" if you are also including them around "Bob-omb Battlefield?" That would just be redundant and clarify nothing to our readers.
<blockquote>Satterfield, Shane (August 25, 2000). [https://web.archive.org/web/20150905171950/http://www.gamespot.com/articles/nintendos-gamecube-unveiled/1100-2619269/ Nintendo's GameCube Unveiled]. ''GameSpot''. Archived September 5, 2015 via Wayback Machine. Retrieved July 15, 2022.</blockquote>


Here's another example, using the citation of the Mario Portal on the Banzai Bill article (because this specific page does not have an author nor a release date attributed to it, these details are omitted from the citation):
I offer two options:
<blockquote>[https://archive.ph/yutSZ Super Mario World | Game Archives | Mario Portal | Nintendo]. ''Nintendo''. Archived August 13, 2022 14:17:58 UTC via archive.today. Retrieved August 13, 2022.</blockquote>


As a clarification, this proposal does not mean to mandate that ''every'' citation of a web page should include an archived link; that should be left to editor consideration. However, in cases where archived links are necessary, such as volatile links or links that are already dead, a standard method of citation would be useful to implement.
#'''Add missions (and equivalencies like episodes and objectives) to list of subjects we should put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style.'''
#'''Don't do that.'''


'''Proposer''': {{User|ThePowerPlayer}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 24, 2022, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': January 21th, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support: I like this idea! Let's include missions on the Manual of Style.====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Our thought process for this is, admittedly, a tad silly, but hear us out here; if we give episodes of TV shows, like, say, "[[Mama Luigi]]", quotation marks in places like the [[Super Mario World (television series)#Episodes|list of episodes]], to even the infobox of its own article, we can see ''a'' reason to go for this. While we don't feel as strong about this as others, we do feel like it at least makes SOME sense to us to apply this rationale to what is, effectively, the gameplay analogue to an "episode".
 
====Oppose: I think this is a bad idea. Let's not do that.====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I maintain my stance from the aforementioned proposal — these quotation marks are misrepresentative of these subjects' official names, and the insistent use of them makes it impossible to tell the [["Deep, Deep Vibes"|errant times they are official]] from the times in which they are not. This is prioritizing a manual of style over the truth, which is unacceptable no matter how minor.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Ahemtoday, and I also think the argument for using the quotation marks for missions in particular is especially weak because I don't think you can argue it's a common practice elsewhere like you can with music. It doesn't help to clarify anything for the reader if they don't already know it's a standard.
#{{User|Salmancer}} Putting quotes exclusively around mission names would be saying that a mission has more narrative content than a level, as both are equally discrete segments of video games. (Start at one point, goal at other point, stuff in between, game enters a state with lessened consequences in-between, be that a transition to the next level/mission or a World Map/hubworld.) And sure, missions have more narrative content on average than levels. But that's an ''average'' and is far from absolute, mostly being decided by "are there NPCs in this mission/level who are relevant to the story"? Levels can have those, like [[Bowser Jr. Showdown]], and missions can lack those, like with [[Smart Bombing]]. It would be best for Super Mario Wiki to not pass judgement.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} ignoring the fact that the line between what counts as a "mission" and what doesn't by the given definition is murky (do bogstandard [[Power Moon]] names count, if ''SM64'' stars do? what about ''Brothership'' [[List of Mario & Luigi: Brothership side quests|side quests]]? ''TTYD'' [[Trouble Center|troubles]]? achievements?), i think the way this proposal tries to apply a standard used for episodes in a show and songs in an album to only a particular stripe of objectives within a videogame is drawing a false equivalence. deciding that levels are strictly separate "locations" while missions are "scenarios" also feels like an improper conflation of game-mechanical and narrative terminology (what about levels that share locations with others, like <i>Master of Disguise</i>'s [[Whose Show Is This Anyway?!!|first]] and [[The Purple Wind Stinks Up the Ship!|second]] levels?). this feels like a misapplied idea.
 
====Comments on this quotation mark/mission proposal====
{{@|Ahemtoday}} I believe your proposal did not pass because the arguments were not persuasive. There are very few expectations for users and visitors of this site other than that they have baseline writing and reading comprehension skills. I am not privy to anyone, certainly not a systemic amount of people, who have seen quotation marks ''around'' the name of a subject and assume it is literally part ''of'' the name. I do not think it is a reasonable argument. I do not even know of any music tracks in the franchise with quotation marks around them as part of their name outside of the four items from ''Paper Mario: The Origami King'' - in a nearly forty year-old franchise with hundreds of music tracks. The inclusion of quotation marks for these four subjects is clearly the exception, not the rule, and a useful writing convention should not be thrown out just for them. It takes very little effort to just share in the body paragraphs of those four articles that the quotation marks are part of their names (if one even thinks it is necessary, which I am still unconvinced is). We are not misinforming readers here.
 
Additionally, bringing up that music track is a non sequitur because this proposal does not impact music: it impacts missions. If you feel like quotation marks around any subject, regardless of medium (i.e. televised episodes, song titles, titled novel chapters, and potentially missions, if this proposal were to be successful) is inherently "lying," as you assert in your previous proposal, it is dependent on the idea that your average reader sees quotation marks and assume they are part of the title unless otherwise specified, which you have not unsubstantiated. I don't think that happens. That is like seeing the title ''Super Mario Galaxy'' on the wiki and feeling misinformed because every letter on the [[:File:SMG Title Screen.png|title screen]] is capitalized. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 03:36, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:The point is that the speech marks sometimes are part of the name and putting them around all names regardless of that removes that distinction. It wouldn't be immediately obvious to a reader that they are part of the title of [["Deep, Deep Vibes"]] but are not part of the title of "[[Happy & Sappy]]". Similar cases are "[[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music#Super Mario Bros.|"Hurry Up!" Ground BGM]]" and "[[List of Super Mario tracks on Nintendo Music#Super Mario 64|"It's-a Me, Mario!"]]", where I think the double quotation marks look bad. A solution I'd be fine with is to only use the quotation marks in running text and not tables, which seems to already be done on many [[List of albums|album pages]] (though I'm still opposed to using quotation marks at all for mission names since I don't think it's an established standard). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:48, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::Why is it more immediately important to relay that quotation marks are part of a subject's title over the fact that it is a song as opposed to something else? — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 04:57, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::Because the goal of saying the title is simply to say the title, not to also clarify immediately what kind of thing it is. That's what context is for, not titles. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::Then why do we italicize game titles? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:39, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::Because it's an established standard (and one Nintendo sometimes adheres to), unlike putting quotes around mission names. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:26, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::::Very few novels put quotation marks around their own chapter titles. Independent reference material on those novels always do. Do you think we would not italicize video game titles if Nintendo themselves did not? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:02, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::::What reference material puts quotation marks around video game mission titles that were not present in the game? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:11, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::::::I would have personally appreciated it if you had engaged with the question I asked, or at least engage with whether you think it is accurate to say an episode in ''Super Mario Sunshine'' is essentially one of its "chapters." That was the point I was trying to make.
::::::::I am hardly familiar with any independent sources that discuss missions at all, let along put quotation marks around their names when they show up in a sentence, and I hope it is apparent from [[Super Mario Galaxy#Notes and references|the articles I contribute to the most]] that I do exercise that diligence. (There may be sources that chronicle RPG titles like ''Final Fantasy'' where certain scenarios or chapters in the games have quotation marks around them, iirc, but platformers are typically not discussed with the same rigor because most of them have weaker narrative elements.) When compared to literature, film, and music, video games are a younger medium that is still not chronicled or discussed with the same care in academic or archival projects, which is where precedents for this type of thing would be set. They are still viewed as products first and creative works second in many circles. Consequently, for all intents and purposes, the people who want granular information on the ''Super Mario'' series are likely to come to the Super Mario Wiki before anywhere else, and I do not see that changing in the near or distant future. We would very much be the ones establishing this precedent. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::I think the reason we italicise game titles is because of it being a standard in other sources, which putting quotes around mission names is not, regardless of the reason for that. I don't see why it should be our job to set this precedent. Following established practice is very different to inventing it. And I don't agree that missions are equivalent to chapters because I feel like missions in Mario games are often more equivalent to levels in other Mario games, which I certainly do not want us to be putting quotes around. Like Salmancer argued in their vote, the idea that missions have more narrative content than levels is not always accurate (and I don't see why narrative content should be a decider anyway in a franchise that is not primarily focused on narrative). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::::::::::I do not want to set it because it is "our job." I want to set it because I think it is a beneficial tool. It is also not some sort of value judgement like Salmancer suggested. It is acknowledging that the Bob-omb Battlefield and "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" are not equivalencies within the game they occur in: the former is a level, whereas the latter is a scenario within the level. They are not the same thing. Bowser Jr. Showdown, regardless of how it was localized in English, is the name of a unique level. A location. It is within a greater region (a world), but that is exactly like World 1-1 or Vanilla Secret 2. When you access "Footrace with Koopa the Quick," you are accessing the same level as "Big Bob-omb on the Summit," so it is not the equivalency to something like Bowser Jr. Showdown and is exactly why I made the disclaimer I did in the proposal about level names. The lack of quotation marks does not mean Bowser Jr. Showdown is devoid of any narrative context, just that it is a level only. If there were different discrete scenarios like missions within Bowser Jr. Showdown that had names, that would be another matter. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:14, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:::::::::::I don't see how it being a "scenario" (which is already a pretty loose distinction imo) should mean it gets quotation marks if that isn't a standard. In the same way levels and missions aren't equivalent subjects, nor are levels and worlds, or levels and items, or levels and characters. Deciding that this particular distinction can't just be gleaned from context like all those others can and instead needs us to invent an extra indicator feels arbitrary to me. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:27, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:It is not that readers, necessarily, will '''believe''' that the quotation marks are actually present around things they are not. It is that, if the reader had any desire to see if quotation marks surrounded something, they could not get this information from us except from marginal implicities that are basically by accident. By contrast, whether or not a name is a location or a mission is extremely easy information to obtain on this wiki without quotation marks — readers can simply click on the link and find out at the very top of that subject's article what it is. I've never spoken to a person who's run into the issue of confusing episode and level names, but even if they ''weren't'' equally unsubstantiated, why should we obfuscate information to cater to them when they are five seconds away from solving their problem? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 21:55, January 8, 2025 (EST)
{{@|Hewer}} I think you have misunderstood the proposal. I did not argue this was common practice or had precedent. My argument is that quotation marks often convey the type of subject and that it is part of a greater whole. Missions are narrative scenarios within a larger creative work, just like episodes in a television show, scenes in a film (which also get placed within quotation marks when titled), and named book chapters. I think that is intuitive. They are ontologically all the same thing in different media and — like them — they inherit the same benefits from quotation marks. They passively relay the same info: that this is a scenario within a creative work as opposed to, say, a location within a creative work. — [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 04:54, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:I understand you weren't arguing that this had precedent, my point is that that was an argument for the opposition in the music proposal that I don't think can be applied here, thus I think the case for quotes around missions is weaker than that for quotes around music. Quotation marks only help to indicate what type of subject it is if the reader is already aware that that is what they are meant to indicate, which they aren't as likely to be for mission titles due to it not being a common practice (and again, it doesn't match how the games themselves do it, so I think it would probably add more confusion, not reduce it). The quotation marks around "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" don't indicate it being a mission any more than it being a song. I also personally don't think the distinction between levels and missions, especially in Mario games, is that significant. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
::The intent is to clarify that "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" is a scenario in a place, whereas Bob-omb Battlefield is the place. I have found this very helpful in the articles I have contributed to. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)
 
I argue "death of the author". People will read this as "we're putting quotation marks around missions and not levels because missions are more like television episodes than levels are". This will happen because levels in 2D ''Super Mario'' games and missions in 3D ''Super Mario'' games are more or less equivalent; the concept of "place" vs "event in place" is wibbly-wobbly in video game land unless the option of replaying them with the same save file is cut off, and this proposal is putting one set of "events in places" over the other. I read the entire proposal and came to that exact conclusion. And to the theoretical confusion of "3D platformer level" to "mission", what of "2D platformer world" to "level"? What makes declaring Footrace with Koopa the Quick to be a part of Bob-omb Battlefield but not of the same type as Bob-omb Battlefield any more important than declaring Bowser Jr. Showdown is part of [[Meringue Clouds]] but not of the same type as Meringue Clouds? This has to be done for both kinds of relationships. This, of course, is relevant because Worlds in New Super Mario Bros. games started to include interactive elements that work based on how they do in the levels, and I think this proposal is targeted at prose for such interactive elements in their articles, like explaining where and when things appear. Sure, this makes something like [[Cosmic block]]'s first sentence in it's ''Super Mario Galaxy'' section marginally clearer if someone has already read the Manual of Style, but why shouldn't [[Spine Coaster]]s get this treatment when they appear in [[Thrilling Spine Coaster]] and in [[Rock-Candy Mines]]? [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 23:19, January 8, 2025 (EST)
:I don't think "death of the author" applies here because the distinction of mission vs. level is informed by the game itself, not by what the creators of the game say it should be.
:The reason why Bob-omb Battlefield isn't the equivalent of a world is because the first floor in ''Super Mario 64'' is the world, and this is part of how the game is physically organized. You only gain access to another floor if you clear the first Bowser course of the first floor. The only games with missions that don't have worlds for their levels are ''Super Mario Sunshine'' and ''Super Mario Odyssey''. The other three do: ''Super Mario 64'' has there levels broken up into floors; ''Super Mario Galaxy'' has [[dome]]s; and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' has what are literally called [[World#Super Mario Galaxy 2|World]]s. So if the the equivalency of the [[Terrace (Super Mario Galaxy)|Terrace]] in ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' is [[Acorn Plains]], and the equivalency of [[Good Egg Galaxy]] is [[Acorn Plains Way]], than what is the equivalency of "[[A Snack of Cosmic Proportions]]?" The answer is there is none, because Acorn Plains Way doesn't have any episodes. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:07, January 9, 2025 (EST)
 
{{@|EvieMaybe}}, I restricted this proposal to what I am familiar with, which are the 3D ''Super Mario'' platformers. I do not have the knowledge or expertise to extend this proposal to ''Wario: Master of Disguise'' or ''Mario & Luigi: Brothership''. I am only interested in ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', ''Super Mario Galaxy'', ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'', and ''Super Mario Odyssey''. I do not offhand think isolated Power Moons should be impacted by this proposal. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:13, January 9, 2025 (EST)
 
==New features==
===Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page===
This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more ''Super Mario'' games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for [[Mario]], [[Bowser]], and many other recurring subjects.
 
Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.
 
For example, let's say for [[Luigi]] in his appearance in ''[[Mario Sports Superstars]]'', there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:
 
:''For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see [[List of Luigi profiles and statistics#Mario Sports Superstars|here]].''
 
The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per.
#{{User|Hewer}} I think I'd rather have it link to both the archive and the original, but I can see why that might not be ideal and this is still better than nothing so per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Mario}} Doesn't seem necessary. Just a thought: should we also link to parts of character galleries for every game section?


====Comments====
====Comments====
Can you articulate some specifics for this standard? Namely, would it suffice to include the link to a snapshot, or would editors be requested to also add the time, date, and name of the archivation website of that particular snapshot? You are putting forward the Banzai Bill citation as a template and, though I agree on encouraging comprehensive fact-checking and easy readability/access (as the user who basically pushed for this whole format across the wiki over the past years), I reckon some editors may not like being forced by policy to tick so many boxes when structuring their links. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 00:50, October 10, 2022 (EDT)
{{@|Hewer}} I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)
:I've edited the description of my proposal to reflect your criticisms. If there's anything else I was unclear about, please let me know. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 11:57, October 10, 2022 (EDT)
 
::I wouldn't disallow snapshot timestamps. I recognise that the presence of such info creates an inconsistency with the way the original link's access date is formatted, but one could argue the timestamp is a defining, unique attribute of the snapshot. I.E., a snapshot taken at 09:00:00 UTC on January 1, 2000 is stored separately from another snapshot taken 17:00:00 UTC on the same day, and (on Wayback Machine at least) there's a set waiting period before a new snapshot can be created, so there exist no two simultaneous snapshots of a given web page. Another proviso in your proposal I would like to address regards the way broken links are handled: it's fairly counterintuitive to put forth a link that doesn't work and treat the working archive link as secondary; the way I've gone with this has been to treat the archive links as any other regular link, complete with its original website's name and access date, and sandwich the archival details in-between the former two, like so:<blockquote>{{fake link|Snapshot}}. ''website''. Archived January 1, 2000, 09:00:00 UTC via Mayback Wachine. Retrieved January 1, 2022.</blockquote> An additional practice I've seen on Wikipedia is to also append the original link as an accessory, as "Archived January 1, 2000, 09:00:00 UTC from the {{fake link|original}} via Wayback Machine", which I suppose makes documentation more thorough--if a bit overly so, which is why I suspect some editors may find fault in this addition. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:30, October 10, 2022 (EDT)
If I understood this correctly, would this proposal add a disclaimer to every sigle game in a character's History section if the character has a corresponding profile and/or statistics section for that game? That's basically 20+ disclaimers on almost every game in Luigi's History page, is that correct? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 09:41, January 1, 2025 (EST)
:::I've made more revisions to the template I recommended for citing archived links. I elected to simply include ''only'' the archived link within the citation, both because the original link is always available on any credible archived page, and for simplicity's sake so editors don't find it too tedious to implement said template. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 23:35, October 10, 2022 (EDT)
:I don't really see the problem if it's helpful, relevant links that aren't very intrusive anyway. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:08, January 2, 2025 (EST)
So, is the proposal now championing the prohibition of first-hand links in favour of archived links, or just a guideline recommendation for using the latter? The last statement of the proposal is in direct contradiction with the rest: "''As a clarification, this proposal does not mean to mandate that every citation of a web page should include an archived link; that should be left to editor consideration.''" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:04, October 11, 2022 (EDT)
:For additional clarification to that final sentence in particular, users should decide on their own whether to use an archived link in their citation (especially for pages that are volatile or already dead on the live web), or if using a regular link would be sufficient (this applies to most pages). However, ''if'' the user decides that an archived link would be appropriate, the standardized template described above should be used. There should be a template for citing archived links in ''addition'' to the existing template for citing ''regular'' links; that was the goal of this proposal in the first place. There will always be outliers and exceptions (for example, [[Il Piantissimo#References|the reference on Il Piantissimo's article]] would be difficult to fit into a standard template), but having these guidelines is good practice because it sets the standard for credible and accessible citations. {{User:ThePowerPlayer/sig}} 21:33, October 11, 2022 (EDT)


==New features==
@Mario: I don't think the gallery comparison works. Galleries aren't split up into subsections for individual games in the same way as profiles and statistics pages, so it can't really be done the same way. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:16, January 3, 2025 (EST)
''None at the moment.''


==Removals==
==Removals==
===Remove or Split trophy/spirit cameo in the Latest appearance===
===Delete Alternative Proto Piranha Images===
Non-physical appearance being listed in the Character Infobox. Most of the DK characters had this information. Especially, they haven't appeared in the game in over a decade. [[Tiny Kong]] hasn't appeared in a game since 2008. Excluding remakes, [[Toadsworth]] hasn't make an appearance in a new game since 2013. We recommended that remove or split any trophy/spirit cameo appearance in infobox that anyone can appeared on. Or we split their physical and overall appearance. An infobox similar to other Nintendo or third party characters.
This concerns [[:File:SMS Fire Gatekeeper.png|these two]] [[:File:SMS Green-Yellow Gatekeeper.png|image files]], which are as of present unused.
 
The main argument is that not only are these two images taken using a hacked version of the game, but that they aren't actually even intended in the first place; while we don't know much about how ''Sunshine'' works under the hood, the leading theory is that the object for the [[Proto Piranha]] simply borrows  the texture of whatever [[Goop]] is currently loaded. Given the resulting Proto Piranha inherits no other attributes of the goop aside from visuals, this definitely tracks. In addition, attempts to add these to TCRF were removed [https://tcrf.net/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Sunshine/Unused_Objects&diff=785172&oldid=783712 not once], [https://tcrf.net/index.php?title=Super_Mario_Sunshine/Unused_Objects&diff=787388&oldid=787192 but twice]. Given these images have been languishing for a long while with no real use, it seems more-or-less fine to remove them to us.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Delete====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Given the lack of any glitches to even spawn a Proto Piranha in these areas, the dubious origin of the images themselves, and the fact that calling them "unused content" is a bit of a misnomer, we don't see any particular reason to keep these around--even the "the goop reflects the area it's loaded in" is already thoroughly demonstrated thanks to the images of the Proto Piranha as it already appears, in vanilla, in [[Delfino Airstrip]] and both [[Bianco Square]] and [[Bianco Hills]]. This, to us, would be like listing the thing where if you hack a Yoshi into a Castle stage in ''[[Super Mario World]]'' its head becomes a Lava Bubble as "unused content" for that game.
#{{User|Tails777}} I'm leaning towards this. I feel this would be different if there was a video showcasing what happens when you insert a Proto Piranha in a place it otherwise doesn't spawn in, mostly because it's not uncommon for us to cover possibilities only possible through hacks. If we had a bit more to back it all up, that's be fine, but images without anything else doesn't really prove a lot. At best, this is like a small trivia point for Proto Piranhas, not unused content. <small>They still look cool though.</small>.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} If it was not intended, then it is not unused content.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} The only thing that really kept me from nuking these images outright is because of lack of info and I'm glad that's cleared up in this proposal. Kill these.
#{{User|Technetium}} Here Ray Trace, you can borrow my FLUDD. Per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} Wash 'em away!
 
====Keep====
 
====Comments (delete alternative proto piranha images)====
i can see a case for keeping them around to illustrate how proto piranha's goo change isn't hardcoded, but i agree with the idea that a video might be better. i'll abstain for now. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 09:57, January 4, 2025 (EST)
 
===Delete the MP11/MP12/MP13 redirects===
The existence of these was brought to our attention thanks to a redirect called [[Mario Party 13]] (as of proposal, this leads to ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]'', which is already marked for deletion. This concerns both that redirect, as well as [[MP11]], [[MP12]], and [[MP13]].


#Do not include cameo appearance in infobox
Simply put, these redirects seem to be entirely based on rather uncommon fan nicknames for ''[[Super Mario Party]]'', ''[[Mario Party Superstars]]'', and ''[[Super Mario Party Jamboree]]''. We can't find any sources that call these games Mario Parties 11, 12, or 13. Random flavor text notes that Super Mario Party is "the 11th party", but that's as close as you get. And unlike, say, our similarly deprecated "[[Fury Bowser|God Slayer Bowser]]" redirect, we don't even think there's any particular confusion that those are the respective names of the games. Given the unofficial origins of these nicknames, as well as the fact they seem to not even be that used, we don't see any harm in getting rid of these.
#Separate their physical and overall appearance in infobox.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Windy}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 20, 2022, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': January 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Support (option 1)====
====Delete (party's over!)====
====Support (option 2)====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Fairly self-explanatory; unofficial title? That's a paddlin'. Unofficial title that doesn't even seem to be that widely used? That's a paddlin'.
#{{User|Shadow2}} Appearing as a PNG in Smash Bros. should not overwrite their last ''actual'' appearance. Keeping them is fine, but not when it removes information about the last time Tiny Kong herself was actually in a game.
 
====Oppose====
====Keep (party on!)====
#{{User|Swallow}} Even if the character doesn't make a physical appearance, their presence is still in the game so I think it's still worth reflecting that.
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} per Swallow. Also, I have no idea why you didn't even choose an option for your proposal.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per Swallow. It's still an appearance, it counts.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per all.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
#{{User|RealStuffMister}} per all (Also since you made the proposal you should probably add your support on)
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments (idle party chat)====
Updated as 'Remove' to 'Remove or Split'. Split their physical appearance similar to other Nintendo characters. If the character doesn't have a physical appearance in the recent games since Smash's spirit, the infobox must be include (YEAR, physical). [[User:Windy|Windy]] ([[User talk:Windy|talk]]) 16:37, October 14, 2022 (EDT)
:As the proposer, you should put your own vote in one of the supporting options. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:47, October 14, 2022 (EDT)
If you want to move options after updated, do so. [[User:Windy|Windy]] ([[User talk:Windy|talk]]) 15:11, October 17, 2022 (EDT)


===Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles===
==Changes==
Starting with ''Mario Kart 8'' on Wii U hitherto the time of this proposal, Mario games have exclusively referred to Koopalings using their first names: [[Larry Koopa|Larry]], [[Ludwig von Koopa|Ludwig]], [[Wendy O. Koopa|Wendy]] etc. These games include ''Paper Mario: Color Splash'', ''Mario & Luigi'' games, ''Mario Kart Tour'', ''Dr. Mario World'', ''Super Smash Bros.'' games, and ''Mario & Sonic'' games (Rio 2016; Tokyo 2020).
===Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"===
There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?


The Koopaling article names on this wiki do not reflect this state of affairs: currently, they use the naming scheme established in old manuals, which is stylised by way of the word "Koopa" attached as a surname or nobiliary title of sorts. Said naming scheme has seen sparse use in more recent years, being specifically reserved to ancillary material such as the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' Prima Guide, this [https://youtu.be/De9Z11mLo_A?t=105 video], and most likely more--I invite knowledgeable editors to expand this list for future reference. As dictated by [[MarioWiki:Naming#Acceptable sources for naming|the source priority policy]], this material should not override what the games themselves put forward. In addition, the more concise versions of these characters' names would better serve readers and contributors alike.
Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.


Given my statement above, the object of this proposal is to simply change Koopaling articles, and most pages directly related to the individual characters, to display only their first name. The page [[List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa]] is excluded from the proposal's scope, as its title reflects the character's name used in the SMB3 cartoon. The following is a list of affected pages, with target titles in brackets:
This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.
{|
|-
|
*[[Larry Koopa]] ("Larry")
*[[Roy Koopa]] ("Roy")
*[[Wendy O. Koopa]] ("Wendy")
*[[Lemmy Koopa]] ("Lemmy")
*[[Morton Koopa Jr.]] ("Morton")
*[[Ludwig von Koopa]] ("Ludwig")
*[[Iggy Koopa]] ("Iggy")
|
*[[List of Larry Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Larry profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Roy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Roy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Wendy O. Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Wendy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Lemmy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Lemmy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Morton Koopa Jr. profiles and statistics]] ("List of Morton profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Ludwig von Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Ludwig profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Iggy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Iggy profiles and statistics")
|}


I would also like us to hash out how to phrase the opening paragraphs in their character articles; namely, whether to list the short name or the full name first. For this, I'm splitting the support option into two possible directions:
'''Proposer''': {{User|Mario}}<br>
#"<u>'''Larry''', referred to in full as '''Larry Koopa'''</u> and known as '''Cheatsy Koopa''' in the cartoons, [...]"
'''Deadline''': <s>January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#"<u>'''Larry Koopa''', or simply '''Larry'''</u>, known as '''Cheatsy Koopa''' in the cartoons, [...]"


I suppose some editors may prefer the second direction, given that it's common practice in academic and academically-modeled resources to start out an article's text with the subject's full name, and not necessarily the best known version of the name.
====Blank support====
#{{User|Mario}} Per all.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
#{{User|PopitTart}} <small>(This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)</small>
#{{User|Altendo}} <small>(Look at the code for my reasoning)</small><!---It might not seem annoying, but over time, or answering multiple proposals at once, it can start putting stress. Copy-pasting can be done, but it is just much easier to not type anything at all.---->
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}}
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really ''are'' just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at ''all.'' <small>(Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)</small> <!---Silent per all.---->
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
#{{user|TheDarkStar}} - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
#{{user|Ninja Squid}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.
#{{User|RetroNintendo2008}}
#{{User|Fun With Despair}} I am arguably in agreement with some of the opposition who argue that even "per all" should go in favor of each voter making an argument or explaining themselves, but if "per all" stays, then I don't really have a problem with allowing blank votes as well. I would prefer a proposal on getting rid of "per all" overall as its a bit of a lazy cop-out (at least name a specific guy you agree with), but a blank vote ultimate just means they agree with the OP's point and chose to vote with them - and I don't have a problem with that.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
====Blank Oppose====
'''Deadline''': <s>September 25, 2022, 23:59 GMT Extended to October 2, 2022, 23:59 GMT Extended to October 9, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to October 16, 2022, 23:59 GMT
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
#{{User|Technetium}} I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone ''does'' provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} {{color|white|Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type ''two words''.}}
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all <small>(is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)</small>
#{{User|Axii}} Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides ''some'' insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
#{{user|DesaMatt}} Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per Technetium, Ahemtoday, Axii and Mister Wu.


====Support (option 1)====
====Blank Comments====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Preferred option. Can't wait to make it easier to type out the names of these roster-padding sons of bitches.
I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per con Carne's proposal :)
:I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
#{{user|WildWario}} Per proposal.
::There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Hewer}} After some thought, per all and per the support voters [[Talk:Koopalings#Move_all_Koopaling_articles_to_just_their_first_names|here]].
:::My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|Platform}} - Per all.
::::My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the  odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Strongly per "most commonly used English name" which has been the basis every single time this comes up (I would say "List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip" too since I distinctly remember lines using his first name, but I'm not about to bingewatch to confirm if full name or first only is more common there).
:{{@|Mario}} I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)
#{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all, given that the "Koopa" parts of their names are not as frequently used. By the same logic, shouldn't Bowser's page be called "King Bowser Koopa" or Mario's page be called "Mario Mario"?
:In my opinion, saying "per OP" or "per (insert user here) is just as much effort as saying "per all" and at least demonstrates a modicum of original thought. I think that a blank vote is essentially the same as just voicing that you agree with the OP, so I did vote for that option in this case - but I think per all does an equally poor job to a blank vote at explaining what you think. At least requiring specific users to be hit with the "per" when voting would give far more of a baseline than "per all". That's not really what this proposal is about though, so I won't dwell on it. --[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 00:22, January 2, 2025 (EST)


Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
:There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)


<del>{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Full_name parameter exists for a reason and the full names are rarely used, unlike say [[Kammy Koopa]], who is referred to pretty much only as such.</del> Switching to other option, same reasoning applies<br>
I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring ''a'' written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)
<del>{{User|Tails777}} Honestly, either wording works for me, but could be best to roll with their first names only to match article titles.</del>


====Support (option 2)====
===Do not treat one-time ''Super Mario RPG'' names as recurring names===
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice.
{{early notice|January 10}}
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} I'm surprised no one has voted for the second support option; changing mentions of the Koopalings to just their first names would improve reader and editor convenience, while using their full names as the very first words of each of their articles would help make their full name immediately clear (and help clarify that the article {{fake link|Roy}} refers to Roy Koopa, not [[Roy (Fire Emblem)|Roy from ''Fire Emblem'']] or [[Roy (Mario Tennis: Power Tour)|Roy from ''Mario Tennis: Power Tour'']]). This option makes sense to me because their full names are still commonly used, unlike [[Mario|Mario Mario]], [[Princess Peach|Princess Peach Toadstool]], and [[Yoshi|T. Yoshisaur Munchakoopas]]. Additionally, it sets both an academic, professional standard and the standard already set by the edge cases of characters with intentionally long full names, like [[Squirps]] and [[The Old Psychic Lady]].
This proposal is mainly aimed at [[Mini Goomba]] and [[Lava Bubble]], though there may be others in this regard that I'm not aware of. Both of these enemies had names that were only used for the original version (Goombette and Sparky respectively) but we continue to use these names for the enemies for other appearances where no name is given for them until an appearance which they do e.g calling Lava Bubbles "Sparkies" in regards to ''Super Mario 64''. Considering this is a game which had some questionable translations and the game's remake used properly translated names, I think we should only use these names in regards to the original ''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'' and instead use whichever name had been used beforehand for later appearances.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} My preference would be an approach closer to this (also considering that the given full names are subject to modification, especially in old western media appearances).
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{user|Blinker}} Per all. (Professor E. Gadd on a similar boat?)
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all


====Oppose====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nightwicked Bowser}}<br>
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Mister Wu in the comments and the [[Talk:Koopalings#Move_all_Koopaling_articles_to_just_their_first_names|previous proposal over this]]. The names are still sometimes used in-game with recent examples, and this largely seems to stem from the extended names just not being used in Japan. (You could bring in the "it's closer to Japanese" argument, but I don't really like the idea of using that to decide which English names should be used.)
'''Deadline''': January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Waluigi Time. These names are still used quite frequently and don't need to be changed.
#{{User|Swallow}} I would agree with not referring to them by the full names for games that don't use them at all, otherwise per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} If the full names had been completely out of use after the first appearance or so like [[Boo Diddly]], I would have supported this. And then there's few Koopa characters like [[Kylie Koopa]] whose first name was used in her follow-up appearance. I don't know the reason for Smash Bros. fighters having articles under their full names if they have any, but when I see an example like [[Wolf]] and [[Wolf O'Donnell]], using full names looks valid enough and better over identifiers (like this).
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Per Waluigi Time, the names are still used on occasion enough compared to [[Princess Peach|Princess Peach Toadstool]].
#{{User|RealStuffMister}} Per waluigi time
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Really struggle to see any advantage to this. If the full names are still in use and there's no official confirmation they've been dropped, what's the point? How does typing "Koopa" on the end of the name, on the rare occasions you need to, waste any time at all? Also both example sentences provided for the support option are far more awkwardly worded than what's currently there.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Until someone can elaborate on why policy discourages linking to redirects, I don't see the need to rename well-established names to simpler names that I feel were simplified for game-context reasons that aren't necessarily applicable to wikis.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Support (Super Mario RPG names)====
I'd like to remind yet again that in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' [https://youtu.be/9HEisHGO1bk the full names are all acknowledged] - they also were acknowledged in the Wii U version of ''Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games'' that featured the ''Theme of Larry Koopa''.<s> Also, please, proposal votes based on personal hatred do no good to the wiki, especially since the only multi slot roster "padding" the Koopalings did since ''Mario Kart 8'' and its Deluxe version was in the now defunct ''Dr. Mario World'' and in ''Mario Kart Tour'' (where it's pretty bold to compare it to the actual padding of the variants). They share the slot with Bowser Jr. in the ''Smash Bros.'' games and they are guests in the ''Mario & Sonic'' games, meaning that they only occupy one slot.</s>--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 15:31, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal
:Considering the tone of my statement of disdain and the fact that I added it at the tail end of a series of arguments made in good faith, I would say that it is very clearly meant to be taken as a joke. I have no strong attachments towards any video game characters, so your accusation that I'm using "hatred" as a thrust to my argument is not only insulting, but blown out of proportion. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:10, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} We shouldn't be treating a one-off oddball localization job as earnest renames.
::Fine, I take that part back (although just so you know, fan votes have been a thing in the past, so be wary that some users ''did'' vote out of attachment to characters, meaning that jokes like this one can be misunderstood). In any case, sorry for the misunderstanding.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:14, September 19, 2022 (EDT)
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
I'd actually like to take this a bit further by questioning Peach and Daisy; as of right now their article names are "Princess Peach"/"Princess Daisy", but much like how very few, if any, modern games ever refer to the Koopalings by their full names, very few, if any games references Peach and Daisy by their titles in game. Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Golf, Smash Bros, they all just refer to them as Peach and Daisy. And if the fact that it's a title has anything to do with it, why isn't Bowser's article named "King Bowser"? I'd wager we could probably move their articles to just Peach and Daisy for the same reasons. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
:''Origami King'' actually does use "Princess Peach" quite a bit: for example, there's Olivia saying "My brother and Princess Peach must both be in there..." and Bowser says "Anyway, where's Princess Peach?", both in the endgame. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 19:37, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
#{{User|Hewer}} Yeah I always thought this was a bit dumb, this is definitely a case where a bit of discretion is necessary. Per all.
:The "Princess" title is still widely in use, such as in TOK as Scrooge said and on the Play Nintendo site. It would seem that only roster-heavy spin-offs refer to them with only their personal names. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:42, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per [[Sky Troopa]]s, [[Spookum]]s, and [[Shy Away]]s.
::That example does help me see the difference in this situation, mainly cause I'm comparing a title to a full name. I guess it makes sense that Peach and Daisy use their princess title cause it's a title. And it makes sense that the Koopalings don't go by their full names often cause that would literally be like going up to your best friend and using their full name just to refer to them. So from a realistic standpoint, it makes sense that games like ''Paper Jam'' or ''Color Splash'' don't just have everyone referring to them by their full names in dialogue like they would when referring to Peach as "Princess Peach" (I guess it's also worth mentioning that in ''Color Splash'', Peach's introduction does use her full title while the Koopalings don't use their full names.) That being said, using spin-offs like ''Mario Kart'' might not be the best examples, since most characters go by their standard names anyway. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
#{{User|OmegaRuby|OmegaRuby RPG: Legend of the Dragon Balls}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all.
#{{User|Blinker}} [[Talk:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars#Names|THANK YOU.]] I remember years ago reading the Super Mario 64 section on [[Lava Bubble]] and thinking that was an actual name they were called in that game. It doesn't help that history sections are often not completely in chronological order.
#{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} It's quite a marvel to see how thorough of a negative impact these names have on the wiki.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per WT
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per [[Exor|Neosquid]].
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per [[Cheep Cheep|Goby]].
<s>{{User|Nintendo101|Nintendo101 RPG: Legend of the Silver Frogs}} Per proposal.</s>


@Opposition: The amount of media that refers to the Koopalings using only their first name (including, as mentioned in the proposal, almost every single game they appeared in during the last decade) far surpasses the number of instances where their full name is used. Participants to the previous proposal brought up isolated, relatively minor instances of the Koopalings' full names being used, particularly in merchandise and print media, and treated them as top-priority sources despite going counter to what the naming policy says. In the spirit of hopefully convincing people that it's misguided to do so, I raise another piece of merch, the [[Super Mario Trading Card Collection]], released in April 2022 (so pretty recent), which respects the naming model used in games. Shouldn't it similarly be taken into consideration, and be measured against a random Larry Koopa toy and a Monopoly set? Because it's clear that merchandise releases are not consistent among themselves in the least, so why not turn to what the games already very clearly establish? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:10, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
====Oppose (Super Mario RPG names)====
:The thing is, they're not contradictory (or even different, technically) names, and it's not even really an inconsistency. Sometimes they use the full name, other times they use a shortened version. I don't see any harm in using the full one if it's still in use. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:51, September 18, 2022 (EDT)


@Opposition: I'm challenging someone to explain why "the names are occasionally used" (in things like Smash Bros. and merchandise no less, which as I've demonstrated above aren't even consistent with themselves) is being so strongly bandied around as an argument against designating the ''names that are put front and center in most appearances of these characters'' to their wiki articles.{{footnote|main|a}} So far, zero proper rationale has been given for the former direction in either of the three proposals that have concerned this matter, other than a couple of arguments that can be best defined as mental gymnastics. Nobody is arguing that we should get rid of the names altogether, just that using them in such a representative fashion isn't the proper way to go--and I've already proposed two methods to handle their full names in their lead, because, much like LinkTheLefty has [[Talk:Koopalings#Move all Koopaling articles to just their first names|previously]] [[Talk:Koopalings#Stop consistently referring to the Koopalings with their full names|stated]], these names are significant enough to deserve a mention as such. That doesn't mean [[Squirps]] is a contender for a move to "Prince Squirp Korogaline Squirpina" though. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 10:30, September 21, 2022 (EDT)<br>
{{footnote|note|a|Per [[MarioWiki:Naming#Naming an article|MarioWiki:Naming]]: "''the name of an article should correspond to the '''most commonly used English name''' of the subject''".}}
:I've already explained at least for my part that I think it's fine keeping the full names since the most commonly used ones are just simplifications of those names, and the full ones are still in use. If the full names had been dropped entirely for an extensive period of time, yeah I could see that, but they're clearly still around. I don't think that's mental gymnastics myself, but if you feel that the arguments presented so far aren't "proper rationale" I'm not sure there's much more to say. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:16, September 21, 2022 (EDT)
::"since the most commonly used ones are just simplifications of those names, and the full ones are still in use"<br>This straight up argues doing the opposite of what the policy I cited above says to do. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:30, September 21, 2022 (EDT)
"How does typing "Koopa" on the end of the name, on the rare occasions you need to, waste any time at all?"<br>
Except they're not "rare" as you claim. I found myself piping links to their articles far more often than not, because--and I re-reiterate--their one-word names have seen infinitely more use in various media throughout the years. I didn't put a lot of focus on this point in the proposal, but having to only type in one word whenever I
link would definitely save some effort.<br>
"Also both example sentences provided for the support option are far more awkwardly worded than what's currently there."<br>
If you have anything better, provided a scenario in which this proposal passes, I'm open to it. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:46, September 23, 2022 (EDT)
:Well... to address the second point, you don't need to change it at all? To address the first, this is all basically just opinion so there's no definitive answer to this, but it's just 5 extra letters. You would need to type it, at a stretch, once per article if it's not already linked - or you don't even need to type them at all, as their first names redirect to their articles anyway. Unless there's suddenly been a massive flood of new Koopaling media/appearances I'm not sure how this could cause any real issue, and the solution the proposal suggests is effectively already in place. If it's causing that much of a problem, you could just leave it for someone else to edit. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 10:54, September 23, 2022 (EDT)
::Those 5 letters, "Koopa", need to be typed out in addition to re-typing the Koopaling's unique name for the sake of piping the link to their article (the wording has to be apposite to what the game in question uses anyway--see [[MarioWiki:Naming#Name changes]]--and that's most games really). Piped linking has to be done because [[MarioWiki:Redirects#Linking to redirects|current policy discourages linking to redirect pages]]. "Unless there's suddenly been a massive flood of new Koopaling media/appearances" -- ''there '''has'''''. Assuredly, for almost a decade now. And there have been very, very few instances, verging on non-significant, in this past decade where their full names were used. <small>(This has to be about the fifth time I'm stating this.)</small> I encourage you to look at and compare the examples everyone brought up so far in this discussion as well as in [[Talk:Koopalings#Move all Koopaling articles to just their first names|previous]] relevant talks. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:16, September 23, 2022 (EDT)
:::It might be the fifth time you've said that, but it's an assumption, not a fact. It's not even true if you count the Smash Ultimate and Mario & Sonic examples Mister Wu mentioned, or the merch where it's used. Why does it matter anyway, why does that justify changing the name? There's no sign the full names have been dropped completely, so it's nothing to do with the naming policy, and the fact that they were used in the past - in games that are often re-released - means they're relevant. Also, piping the link is... really not a huge task. If anything it's a very minor inconvenience, which would take at most a minute to resolve if you had to do it for all seven - and something you're unlikely to run into more than once every few months, at a stretch. It's also something you need to do everywhere on the website, why is it particularly bad in this case? Just feels like removing relevant info for a pointless reason, if I'm honest. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 11:30, September 24, 2022 (EDT)
::::When facts stated ad nauseam are being brushed off as "assumptions", and that they "don't justify changing the names", it's when I officially give up arguing. If a handful of (obscure) instances in a total of two/three titles out of 10 back to back + some 2017 Monopoly game are enough to overpower the rest, then fine: by all means go against policy if you so wish. This same line of thinking can be used to rename [[Squirps]] to the character's full name, as I've mentioned above.<br>"If anything it's a very minor inconvenience, which would take at most a minute to resolve if you had to do it for all seven"<br>''Most'' links concerning Koopalings have to be piped; it's as inconvenient as typing the same word twice everytime it comes up. I've been active enough around these parts for the past several years to know what I'm talking about. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:10, September 24, 2022 (EDT)
::::@MrConcreteDonkey: No one is claiming that the full names have been completely dropped, nor is anyone calling for their removal from the wiki. We're just saying that most of the more recent games use the shortened names without mentioning the full ones, so we should retitle the articles while still making the full names immediately obvious in the lead and infobox. I don't see how this can be classified as 'removing relevant info for a pointless reason' when no info is being removed here. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:49, September 24, 2022 (EDT)
I'm not ready to vote on this yet (even though I supported the previous proposal), but I would just like to say that I think the difference between the two support options is extremely trivial, to the point where I don't understand why the issue even warranted separate voting options for them. Both support options have users voting exclusively for them, which is only going to increase this prop's chances of stalemating, given how polarizing this is. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:15, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
:I admit I wasn't really expecting the proposal to be polarising in the first place, hence my lack of foresight. Trying to sort out minor, secondary issues with separate voting options in a proposal is a practice I will reconsider doing from here on out. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:46, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
::Aside from the issue of splitting the vote for something pretty trivial, something like figuring out wording (when it's as minor as this) is probably better suited for a discussion either during the proposal or after it passes, for future reference. And uh, if it passes, then the wording is technically enforced by proposal and can't be rewritten without another proposal to overturn it, which is a pretty weird situation for something that's not controversial. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:07, October 2, 2022 (EDT)


==Changes==
====Comments (Super Mario RPG names)====
===Merge all non-Mario universe Super Smash Bros. Stages into a collective article===
There are a few instances in which recurring names are listed for other one-off games, like [[Lava Bubble|Spark Spooks]] from Yoshi's Story, if information serves correct. Perhaps the maintenance done if this proposal passes could be extended to instances from games other than Super Mario RPG? {{User:OmegaRuby/sig}} 08:32, January 3, 2025 (EST)
Throughout the past few months the wiki has been trimming down on ''Super Smash Bros.'' content. Mutliple propsoals have now been passed supporting the trimming of Smash content including propsoals merging items, deleting general technqiues and most recently the merging of bosses. Up until I recently  beleived that Smash should receive full coverage on this wiki becuause of the high level of represention ''Mario'' and its sub-franchies recive in these games. However the recent trimming of content combined with the existence of [[smashwiki: main page|Smash Wiki]] I have changed my mind on this. The next step that should be taken in trimming smash content is would be to merge the stages into one collective artcile.


This is probably the most radical proposal in the trimming of Smash content so far giving the stages are a big part of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' franchise. However if we are no longer going to have seperate artciles for Items and Bosses then I think it now has to be questioned to wherever or not non-Mario stages should be also still have seperate pages given this the ''Mario Wiki'' that they based on locations that have nothing or very little to do with the Mario franchise and that seperste artciles of these stages exist on Smash Wiki.  
I actually disagree with pointing fingers at the original game while NOA in general was still clearly figuring things out as they were going along (Lava Bubble isn't the greatest example since Podoboo lasted for quite a while). Maybe rephrase this as "names that were changed in the remake" because that's what this proposal is really targeting. I have a separate idea on how to handle unchanged one-offs like Yo'ster Isle that might conflict with another proposal I had in mind. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, the Yo'ster Isle example should already be dealt with by [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71#Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations|this proposal]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)
:Actually, this has been on my mind even long before the remake came out so I won't be rephrasing the proposal. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:08, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::The remake is handing you something quantifiable to work with on a silver platter besides "translation bad." Why not? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)
:::Because it's my proposal and I'll phrase it how I see it. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:17, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::You'd get the same overall effect but with a better precedent behind it is my point. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:24, January 3, 2025 (EST)


Given that this the Mario Wiki that all stages based locations from the ''Mario'' and the sub-franchises should keep their artciles. By keeping them split it will emphasis that this the ''Mario Wiki'' by given increased focus on elements from Smash that are based on Mario. Therefore should this propsoal pass stages from these franchises which are covered by this wiki remain split:
:I don't see how the Podoboo -> Lava Bubble rename affects this in any meaningful way? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:41, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::Lava Bubble didn't appear in a manual or game yet, so by present rules, this passing would result in swapping Sparky with Podoboo in ''Super Mario 64'' <small>(released a mere 3~4 months apart)</small> - one non-current name for another. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:47, January 3, 2025 (EST)
:::That is my exact intent here. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:49, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::This reminds me that my original idea was to use the term "Bubble" for ''Super Mario 64'', given the peculiarities, albeit still covering it in the Lava Bubble article. That would just leave resized Goomba, as mentioned below. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:46, January 4, 2025 (EST)
:::"Lava Bubble" is employed in ''Mario Mania'', and while I understand this is a lower-priority source since instruction booklets are physically packaged with the games, I do personally hold that at equal value since ''Mario Mania'' is a guidebook for ''Super Mario World'' written by Nintendo of America, who also translated and wrote the instruction booklet. (I don't know if NoA has ever felt inclined to specify this anywhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if the guidebook and instruction booklet even involve the same individual staff members.) I understand how it is intuitively confusing to see how an enemy called "Lava Bubble" in the ''Super Mario World'' section of its own article suddenly be called "Sparky" in the ''Super Mario 64'' section (which, technically, it is not called anywhere at all in the English material for that game), only for it to be called "Lava Bubble" again in the next immediate section. So I understand the appeal.
:::This is tangential, but personally, I am not even really certain the "Lava Bubble" in ''Super Mario 64'' is supposed to be the recurring enemy we see elsewhere since it looks like an ambient plume of fire, and we only refer to it as a "Lava Bubble" because the internal filename for this thing is "BUBBLE." I dunno if that literally means it is intended to be the same subject. If it really is the same subject, I know the Japanese name for [[Lethal Lava Land]] is ファイアバブル ランド (''Faia Baburu Rando'', Fire Bubble Land). Is the land named after the enemy? Because if that is the case, maybe it would be more accurate to refer to Lava Bubbles as "Lethal Lavas" in ''Super Mario 64''-related portions of the wiki, not "Sparkies." - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:09, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::Responding to your tangent, as mentioned in the Lava Bubble article, the enemy's design in 64 DS was reused in New Super Mario Bros., which further indicates that, at least in the remake, those are intended to be Lava Bubbles. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 16:28, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::If memory serves, there's no real name for the object designated as "BUBBLE" in any material (or at least, nothing jumped out to me). For whatever reason, it's harder to find than Keronpa Ball, having completely fallen by the wayside. Having said that, I think a reasonable conclusion has been drawn in the absence of anything better to go off on. Doc added the part about the course name, I think. But - since this proposal is mainly eyeing Lava Bubble and Mini Goomba - I should mention that Mini Goomba is [[Special:Diff/4407550#Size Experiments: Plan|another can of worms]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:36, January 3, 2025 (EST)
::::{{@|Nintendo101}} - Not until we start listing the Magikoopa species in SMRPG as "[https://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars/Unused_Text#Enemy_Names Merlins]." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:22, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:::::{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} is that the same situation? "Lethal Lava Land" is the name of the level... in the game as it was released. The average player is shown this name. "Merlin" is just in the codes and not nakedly presented to the player. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 12:49, January 6, 2025 (EST)


*Mario
===Organize "List of implied" articles===
*Donkey Kong
{{early notice|January 12}}
*Yoshi
Here's one of those "two related proposals in one with a YY-YN-NY-NN support scheme" proposals, concerning the following articles:
*Wario


One series where I think there is question mark to wherever they should be split or merged are Smash oringal stages, ie Battlefield and Final Destination. I would be also keep these with their own articles as these stages have the most hertiage of all Smash stages in the series and that they are not specfially based on a non-Mario franchise. I will therefore provide two options for merging one that sees the Smash oringnal stages remain split and the one that sees them merged.
*[[List of implied characters]]
*[[List of implied entertainment]]
*[[List of implied events]]
*[[List of implied items]]
*[[List of implied locations]]
*[[List of implied organizations]]
*[[List of implied people]]
*[[List of implied species]]


As for all the other franchises inclduing not listed above they would all be merged into an idvidual artcile with the page names being replaced by redirects and include external links to Smash Wiki. <s>Futhermore the infoboxes for the non-mario stages are removed and the text body should be limited to one paragrah per stage.</s>
Right now, each of these is sorted purely alphabetically, with no regards for where or when they were implied to exist. The closest thing to an attempt at organization is Locations dividing between fictional and real locations, which also happens to expose a flaw with this particular article: nearly all the implied locations are there simply because they're mentioned on the [[Globulator]], with no other substance to their entry. All of these cities are already listed on the Globulator article anyways.


I'm very much aware that if this proposal passes it would be a very signifcant change for the wiki. But I beleive now given the trimming of smash content that has been taking place it is one that I beleive should hapoen. (Amendments made to proposal in comments below)
There are other changes I'd like to propose for some particular articles, but for now, let's leave it at these two:


'''Proposer''': {{User|NSY}}<br>
*'''Reorganize''': Sort each article chronologically like your average History section, divided by series and then by game. This should help lump, say, all the Marvelous Compass locations in one place, or all the celebrities namedropped in the Super Show.
'''Deadline''': <s>October 8, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to October 15, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended until October 22, 2022, 23:59 GMT
*'''Deglobulize''': Remove all real world locations from [[List of implied locations]] that are there exclusively because they're mentioned in the Globulator. This would exclude entries like Brazil, who have more to discuss than merely being acknowledged. I consider Locations the article on this list that needs the most trimming, so if this half of the proposal doesn't pass, I won't bother making follow-up articles for trimming the rest.
====Merge all non-Mario universe stages excluding stages orignal to Smash====
#{{User|NSY}} Per proposals, first prefrence


====Merge all non-Mario universe stages including stages orignal to Smash====
'''Proposer''': {{User|EvieMaybe}}<br>
#{{User|NSY}} Second prefrence.
'''Deadline''': January 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I'm in agreement with the proposal, and generally also with the original proposition to have some of the information trimmed, such as the soundtrack listings (although I wouldn't exactly restrict stage entries to only one paragraph, but I digress). The way Super Mario Wiki covers Smash content is an infamously messy attempt at a compromise between the practices of a bygone era of the wiki and its current efforts to curate information. Most of these stages, while not entirely out of the wiki's scope given their presence in a crossover game, have too tenuous a connection to Mario to have dedicated articles; related information is much better conveyed on Smash Wiki, i.e. someone can go there to see Dream Land's track selection if that's a concern. For the record, I would support a similar treatment for fighters that haven't appeared in ''Mario'' media.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} After some thought, I think this is also a fine option.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Koopa con Carne. I see little to no reason to keep entire ''Smash'' articles with little to no relation to the ''Mario'' franchise if said information is documented far more comprehensively on SmashWiki; it just sets a standard of redundant documentation. People aren't visiting the Mario Wiki to learn about [[Brinstar]].
#{{User|Shiny K-Troopa}} Since simply deleting Smash content that is irrelevant to ''Mario'' doesn't seem to be an option for this wiki for some reason, this is the best compromise I guess. Per proposal.


====Merge only non-Mario adventure mode and subspace emissary stages====
====Both reorganize and deglobulize====
#{{user|7feetunder}} Merging all stages seems like biting off more than we can chew right now, but these in particular aren't really significant enough to warrant separate articles for them.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} primary choice.
#{{user|Spectrogram}} Per my reasoning in the comments
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Seems reasonable. I never liked how confusing these pages are.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I think that the main stages are prominent enough to remain separate, per Waluigi Time’s vote below, but I feel like these stages are less significant and can be merged.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per TheFlameChomp. the adventure mode and subspace emissary stages don't need separate pages.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, the arguments for stages being too prominent to merge don't really apply to the adventure mode stages.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all. I agree to this most.
#{{User|Technetium}} Hmm what's the Globulator? *checks page* Oh. Oh god. Yeah that's a per proposal if I've ever seen one.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Second choice; per all. Even if most non-''Mario''-related stages won't be merged, I strongly feel that these stages have too little relation to ''Mario'' to be split.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and Technetium.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} The main stages are just as essential to ''Smash'' as the fighters, so I see no reason to merge them. Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} '''Yipe.''' We knew the Globulator was causing issues, but we didn't expect them to be... That. And, of course, re-orgnaizing the remainder is fine.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.


====Keep all Smash stages split====
====Only reorganize====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Creating a single page to contain every non-Mario stage in the series history, as this proposal seems to aim to do, is going to be way too messy. I'm also strongly against this specific sentence: "''Futhermore the infoboxes for the non-mario stages are removed and the text body should be limited to one paragrah per stage.''" By doing that, we either lose information while trying to keep it trimmed to an arbitrary maximum (why?) or we have all the information we can talk about regarding each stage clumped into a single paragraph, which isn't nice to read. Take a look at [[Dream Land (Super Smash Bros.)]] for example, and try to think of how this would look merged. It's not pretty. Stages are a big enough part of the series gameplay that I think they're fine keeping separate, and frankly, I wasn't really too happy about items being merged either, but at least that was easier to pull off.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} secondary choice.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Too much, too far. <tt>Engaging pushback mode.</tt>
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I feel stages are the second to only playable roster in terms of prominence in a Smash Bros. game (I mean we didn't get an "Everything is Here!" for stages 😒) so I feel a lot of other content should be merged first before we consider stages.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I may consider The Subspace Emissary, which is mostly ''Smash''-original content (and the parts that aren't, aren't ''Mario''-related), but Adventure mode mostly consists of normal stages, and one of the nonstandard stages gets utility outside of the mode via Event Match.
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per all.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per all. At least, until we can adequately address the issues brought up by other users.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|KoolKoopa}} By that logic non-Mario Mario Kart courses would also be merged which doesn't make a lot of sense.


====Comments====
====Only deglobulize====
I'm very conflicted about this. I think non-Mario Subspace Emissary stages such as [[Battleship Halberd Bridge]] or [[The Path to the Ruins]] need to be merged, but regular stages that shape Smash Bros. into what it is are fine. Not to mention, [[Battlefield]] according to the last Smash proposal will be merged with [[Fighting Polygons]] and other teams, so that would mean merging a stage that was already just merged. Keeping it unsplit alone would also be seen as weird. Your proposal also does not make an exception for [[Wrecking Crew (stage)]]. Please add an option to only merge non-Mario Subspace Emissary levels [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 13:07, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
:I agree with merging Subspace Emissary stages, along with ''Melee'' Adventure Mode stages barring Mushroom Kingdom. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:23, October 1, 2022 (EDT)


Thanks for all the feedback given on this proposal, I created this proposal because I feel like it should either be all or nothing when consdiering Smash content, either it should be all merged or all split and I felt based off the pervious proposals held that the consenus of smash content leaned towards it being merged. By having items and bosses merged but stages split i feel it is middle of the road but i do understand the points made of stages being more important. It seems very likely that this proposal is not going to pass but i'll going make amendments based of the things said to see if changes any minds. Firstly as per comments from Spectrogram and 7feetunder I've added the extra option to merge non-Mario adventure mode subpace emissary stages. Secondly in regards to infobox removals and trimming of content, i've decided to strike that off from the proposal given ideas clearly sound unpopular. Thirdly in regards to Wrecking Crewe I completly forgot that stage existed and if this proposal were to pass then that would also stay split. Lastly if this proposal passes then maybe rather than one aritcle it be mutliple articles perhaps one per game to avoid it being messey. That being said even despite these ameadments the consenus clearly belevies the stages should remain split and fully see where all of you are coming from the points made but I curious to see what you all think of these amendments. {{user|NSY}}
====Do not reorganize nor deglobulize (do nothing)====


===Decide what ''Paper Airplane Chase'' is===
====List of implied comments====
''[[Paper Airplane Chase]]'' is a DSiWare game that was made based on the minigame [https://www.mariowiki.com/Paper_Plane_(minigame) Paper Plane] (minigame came first). If this game wasn't made based on the ''WarioWare'' minigame, the answer to how MarioWiki should cover it would be obvious: a cameo appearance. The characters just appear on the background and serve no gameplay functionality. So the question is, how should ''Paper Airplane Chase'' be covered on this wiki?
If deglobulize wins, I think a disclaimer should be added to the list of implied locations (either at the top of the article or the top of the "Real locations" section) explaining that the Globulator doesn't count. Also, if reorganize wins, does the location list keep its "''Super Mario'' franchise locations" and "Real locations" sections? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:05, January 5, 2025 (EST)
:that first one is a good idea, def should be implemented. i want to say yes for the second one, but i think it depends on what the article ends up looking like when reorganized. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 16:08, January 5, 2025 (EST)


* '''Part of the ''Mario'' franchise''': ''Paper Airplane Chase'' gets considered a full part of the ''Wario'' series, since it originated from the ''WarioWare'' minigame. This option results in the game receiving full coverage
===Simplify "wikitable dk"===
* '''Guest appearance''': Not sure how to justify this option. The page remains, no full coverage
This is proposing to slightly simplify the "wikitable dk" class into something that both maintains the elements of a wikitable (such as the gray border and blank background) while maintaining the Donkey Kong theme. Since the current one isn't the most comfortable to read (at least for me), I've thought of a middle ground that I think ultimately looks nicer and feels more consistent with the site design and wikitables in general, so if this proposal passes, the "wikitable dk" style would look like the following:
* '''Cameo appearance''': ''Paper Airplane Chase'' gets considered nothing more than a cameo appearance, resulting in the article getting removed


'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br>
{|class="wikitable" width=25%
'''Deadline''': October 22, 2022, 23:59 GMT
!style="color:#fff;background:#9C6936"|Image
!style="color:#fff;background:#9C6936"|Name
!style="color:#fff;background:#9C6936"|Amount
|-style="background:wheat"
|align="center"|[[File:Awk.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Awk]]
|16
|-
|align="center"|[[File:Frogoon_screenshot.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Frogoon]]
|3
|-style="background:wheat"
|align="center"|[[File:TikiGoon.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Tiki Goon]]
|4
|-
|align="center"|[[File:Screaming_Pillar.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Screaming Pillar]]
|4
|-style="background:wheat"
|align="center"|[[File:Rawk.png|x50px]]
|align="center"|[[Rawk]]
|3
|}


====''Mario'' game====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
#{{User|Hewer}} It's a direct spin-off of Wario, and I'm pretty sure that makes it count as a game in the franchise by our policy.
'''Deadline''': January 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} It's taken directly from WarioWare and still keeps the elements of that series, I don't see why we should do anything else.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I think it makes sense to give the game full coverage if it is based directly off of a ''WarioWare'' subject and continues to contain some elements from the series.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per all
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.


====Guest appearance====
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per


====Cameo appearance====
====Oppose====
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - The proposed "solution" to the alleged "issue" just looks ugly to me.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think the way they look now is serviceable enough as long as it remains easy to for other users to edit. It does the passive job of communicating to the reader that they are reading a ''Donkey Kong'' article. I'm not opposed to revisions though - maybe things can be further simplified - I just think the one recommended in this proposal is a ''little'' too simple though.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} I tell you what.
#{{user|Lakituthequick}} While the existing table style is not winning any prizes, getting rid of colours is not something I support. In fact, if standardised to an extend, I would actually support a bit more colour, especially since the last table proposal.
#{{user|Fun With Despair}} Honestly, I just think it looks fine as-is. Several professional spreadsheets such as schedules I have worked on also alternate the tones of their rows - it's just easier on the eyes.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Alternating colors are a thing on many, many tables--usually, very large ones, like spreadsheets. While the current one is, admittedly, a ''tad'' gaudy, it's perfectly clear and readable.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all, especially Lakituthequick


====Comments====
====Comments====
why not use a brown heading with white text? {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:{{@|EvieMaybe}} Do you or {{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} have a suggestion which shade of brown can be used? I stated in the proposal that I'm open for suggestions of a better color to use. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::I think it looks just fine as-is... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:20, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:::It's not the most accessible in my opinion, and it doesn't match the simple aesthetic of this website. It would also fall in line with the precedent set to use simpler table styles. This is the only style with that inconsistency. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:22, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::::{{@|EvieMaybe}} Okay, so I think I found a shade of brown that works well while still actually making it look like an actual wikitable, so I've altered the wikitable style accordingly. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 13:24, January 7, 2025 (EST)
:::::you sure about the colored rows? it doesn't really match the rest of the wiki's style. the darker brown on the top looks pretty good, though. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 18:27, January 7, 2025 (EST)
::::::Nintendo101 said it looked a bit too simplified, so I added the colors myself. Do you have a different idea for row colors? [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:31, January 7, 2025 (EST)
{{@|Nintendo101}} <s>Want to draft up something that would look less simplified so I can get an idea of what you're stating?</s> Wait, I think I found something. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:12, January 7, 2025 (EST)
For what it's worth, I have been sitting on a proposal for more colourful table styles since [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/70#Encourage_concise.2C_consistent_and_minimalistic_layouts_and_design_for_tables|the last Grand Table Proposal™]], but still need to actually, like, write and post it. As I said in that one, I am not against getting rid of colour, that would only serve to make things more boring.<br>
I do not actually know how things work when proposals with directly relating goals are posted at the same time, so I will refrain from posting mine until at least after this one settles. {{User:Lakituthequick/sig}} 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
:I'll be honest, I was thinking of doing that as well, though I never really had a solid plan. My only idea was to tie it into a similar system on the wiki and use [[MarioWiki:Navigation_templates#Coloration|the same coloration guides as navboxes]] for tables. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 21:59, January 8, 2025 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
===Normalise splitting long References to/in other media sections===
Last year, I successfully proposed that the [[The Super Mario Bros. Movie#References to other media|References to other media section on ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' article]] should be split into its own article due to its length, with the same later occurring for the [[Super Mario Bros.#References in later games|References in later games section on ''Super Mario Bros.'']] On [[Talk:Super Mario Bros.#Split References in other media section|the TPP for splitting the latter section]], the user [[User:EvieMaybe|EvieMaybe]] supported saying "i wonder what'll be the next game to require this". That got me to realise that other articles with these sections are of similar length, and suffer the same problems that I originally pointed out in those past proposals. Select examples that I've been able to find include the following:
*''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' ([[Super Mario Bros. 2#References in later media|references in later media]])
*''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'' ([[Super Mario Bros. 3#References in later media|references in later media]])
*''[[Super Mario World]]'' ([[Super Mario World#References in later games|references in later games]])
*''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]'' ([[Super Mario Odyssey#References to other media|references to]])
*''[[Super Mario Bros. Wonder]]'' ([[Super Mario Bros. Wonder#References to other media|references to]])
Again, these are just examples. There's probably more out there that are equally as long. If this proposal were to achieve support, there would have to be some sort of guideline (similar to [[MarioWiki:Galleries#Splitting galleries|splitting galleries]]) relating to a certain limit at which the section is split, possibly a maximum of 20-30 bullet points or certain number of bytes before splitting, as the sections I've cited as examples go over said amount of bullet points. Normalising this would also prevent anyone from having to make separate TPPs to suggest splitting each and every long section separately, and would also help create some consistency, as it doesn't make much sense for only a few select references to/in other media sections to be split rather than more.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|RetroNintendo2008}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 18, 2025, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|RetroNintendo2008}} Per all.
<s>{{User|EvieMaybe}} look ma, i'm on tv! yeah, this seems like a very reasonable thing to do</s>
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} I support in principle, but I'm against the proposed implementation here. We already have [[MarioWiki:Article size]] for determining what to do when pages get too long, so what I would like to see is simply considering references sections as things that can get split off when that happens. Of the pages linked in this proposal, SMB2 and 3 don't even meet the minimum byte count for a split (SMB2 falls especially short at ~85k bytes). SMB didn't meet those criteria before the proposal either and I think that should be reversed. These lists aren't ''that'' long all things considered and they're kept pretty low on the page so I don't think their presence is necessarily intrusive.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Waluigi Time; we already have policies for this, and we see no need to carve out any exceptions for the references section just yet.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Waluigi Time. A good idea in principal, but only if warranted on a case-by-case basis. I generally do not like splitting up pages unless necessary.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per Waluigi Time, i hadn't considered that. i hope that if this proposal ends with Oppose bc of everyone backing WT, we still remember that we can split reference sections to trim article size
#{{User|Technetium}} Per Waluigi Time.
 
====Comments====

Latest revision as of 01:50, January 9, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Thursday, January 9th, 07:57 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  2. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  3. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  8. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  9. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  12. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  13. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  14. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  15. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  16. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  17. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  18. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  19. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  20. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Below is an example of what your proposal must look like. If you are unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. When updating the bracketed variables with actual information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles, Super Mario Run, and Super Mario Bros. Wonder.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games, Nintendo101 (ended December 25, 2024)
Establish a consistent table format for the "Recipes" section on Paper Mario item pages, Technetium (ended January 8, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Make changes to List of Smash Taunt characters, Hewer (ended December 27, 2024)
Merge ON/OFF Conveyor Belt with Conveyor Belt, PopitTart (ended January 1, 2025)

Writing guidelines

Include missions (and equivalencies) to subjects we put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style

The passing of this proposal would include the in-game missions and equivalencies (i.e. episodes from Super Mario Sunshine, objectives from Super Mario Odyssey, etc.) to the subjects we put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style.

In reference material aimed at describing and chronicling creative works, putting quotation marks around certain types of subjects has become a well-established practice. This is acknowledged in our Manual of Style, in which it states that video games, TV series, and albums should be italicized, whereas individual music titles, named book chapters, and TV episodes should be within quotation marks. I am personally not a fan of adhering to traditions or standards just for the sake of it, but there are strong utilitarian reasons why this has become commonplace. Last year, I relayed what these were in a proposal that aimed to remove quotation marks from song titles, stating:

The purpose of the quotation marks is to quickly convey to the reader that a "named subject" is part of a greater whole (that is italicized), and/or what type of subject it is in the context of where it is discussed in an article. For music, that whole is typically an album or CD (or in this case, a video game), but it is not exclusively used for musical pieces. For example, "Chicken Man" is the fourteenth chapter in The Color of Water. "The Green Glow" is the seventh episode in season one of Resident Alien. One of the benefits of doing this is that music, chapters, episodes, etc. sometimes share the same exact name as the whole they are a part of, or something related in the whole (like the name of a character or place), and discrete formatting mitigates confusion for readers. This is readily valuable for many pieces in the Super Mario franchise, because most of them are given utilitarian names. Wouldn't it be valuable for readers to just recognize that "Gusty Garden Galaxy" (with quotation marks) is a musical piece and Gusty Garden Galaxy is a level? Because that is what the quotation marks are for. I think it is a good and helpful tool, one that is used almost everywhere else when discussing music, and more would be lost than gained if we did away with it.

I hope this adequately explains why I think this is a good practice for us as editors, and how this benefits visitors to our site.

I would like us to explicitly include missions as subjects we should put quotation marks around. This is something I do already on the wiki because I have always perceived them as scenarios within a creative work, much like a TV episode or named chapter in a novel. They often even have unique narrative elements. Consequently, presenting them between quotation marks comes with the same benefit to readers. Proper levels (which I conceptualize as locations within the creative works we cover, not scenarios) have been given a diversity of different names through the franchise's history and many of them sound like they could be referring to scenarios. For folks browsing the wiki or reading an article covering a recurring subject, wouldn't it be nice to have some passive indication that Here Come the Hoppos is a level, whereas "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" is a scenario within a level? I think that'd provide helpful clarity.

As an example of what this would look like in practice, I recommend the Super Mario Galaxy article, where I embraced this fully. I don't include quotation marks around missions in the level table because I feel that looks a little busy and they aren't as helpful there, but I always include them when I mention a mission within a sentence, just like I do with chapters and song titles. The only reason why I am making this proposal is because I have seen the quotation marks removed from mission names on other articles I have worked on, and I would rather we keep them. I think it is a good idea.

For clarification, this proposal does not impact the names of actual levels, which I consider to be locations within the creative works we cover, regardless of how silly their names are in English. It is not commonplace to put quotation marks around the names of locations in creative works, and it would also defeat the intent behind this proposal. What would be the point of including quotation marks around "Big Bob-omb on the Summit" if you are also including them around "Bob-omb Battlefield?" That would just be redundant and clarify nothing to our readers.

I offer two options:

  1. Add missions (and equivalencies like episodes and objectives) to list of subjects we should put quotation marks around in our Manual of Style.
  2. Don't do that.

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: January 21th, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support: I like this idea! Let's include missions on the Manual of Style.

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Our thought process for this is, admittedly, a tad silly, but hear us out here; if we give episodes of TV shows, like, say, "Mama Luigi", quotation marks in places like the list of episodes, to even the infobox of its own article, we can see a reason to go for this. While we don't feel as strong about this as others, we do feel like it at least makes SOME sense to us to apply this rationale to what is, effectively, the gameplay analogue to an "episode".

Oppose: I think this is a bad idea. Let's not do that.

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) I maintain my stance from the aforementioned proposal — these quotation marks are misrepresentative of these subjects' official names, and the insistent use of them makes it impossible to tell the errant times they are official from the times in which they are not. This is prioritizing a manual of style over the truth, which is unacceptable no matter how minor.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per Ahemtoday, and I also think the argument for using the quotation marks for missions in particular is especially weak because I don't think you can argue it's a common practice elsewhere like you can with music. It doesn't help to clarify anything for the reader if they don't already know it's a standard.
  3. Salmancer (talk) Putting quotes exclusively around mission names would be saying that a mission has more narrative content than a level, as both are equally discrete segments of video games. (Start at one point, goal at other point, stuff in between, game enters a state with lessened consequences in-between, be that a transition to the next level/mission or a World Map/hubworld.) And sure, missions have more narrative content on average than levels. But that's an average and is far from absolute, mostly being decided by "are there NPCs in this mission/level who are relevant to the story"? Levels can have those, like Bowser Jr. Showdown, and missions can lack those, like with Smart Bombing. It would be best for Super Mario Wiki to not pass judgement.
  4. EvieMaybe (talk) ignoring the fact that the line between what counts as a "mission" and what doesn't by the given definition is murky (do bogstandard Power Moon names count, if SM64 stars do? what about Brothership side quests? TTYD troubles? achievements?), i think the way this proposal tries to apply a standard used for episodes in a show and songs in an album to only a particular stripe of objectives within a videogame is drawing a false equivalence. deciding that levels are strictly separate "locations" while missions are "scenarios" also feels like an improper conflation of game-mechanical and narrative terminology (what about levels that share locations with others, like Master of Disguise's first and second levels?). this feels like a misapplied idea.

Comments on this quotation mark/mission proposal

@Ahemtoday I believe your proposal did not pass because the arguments were not persuasive. There are very few expectations for users and visitors of this site other than that they have baseline writing and reading comprehension skills. I am not privy to anyone, certainly not a systemic amount of people, who have seen quotation marks around the name of a subject and assume it is literally part of the name. I do not think it is a reasonable argument. I do not even know of any music tracks in the franchise with quotation marks around them as part of their name outside of the four items from Paper Mario: The Origami King - in a nearly forty year-old franchise with hundreds of music tracks. The inclusion of quotation marks for these four subjects is clearly the exception, not the rule, and a useful writing convention should not be thrown out just for them. It takes very little effort to just share in the body paragraphs of those four articles that the quotation marks are part of their names (if one even thinks it is necessary, which I am still unconvinced is). We are not misinforming readers here.

Additionally, bringing up that music track is a non sequitur because this proposal does not impact music: it impacts missions. If you feel like quotation marks around any subject, regardless of medium (i.e. televised episodes, song titles, titled novel chapters, and potentially missions, if this proposal were to be successful) is inherently "lying," as you assert in your previous proposal, it is dependent on the idea that your average reader sees quotation marks and assume they are part of the title unless otherwise specified, which you have not unsubstantiated. I don't think that happens. That is like seeing the title Super Mario Galaxy on the wiki and feeling misinformed because every letter on the title screen is capitalized. - Nintendo101 (talk) 03:36, January 8, 2025 (EST)

The point is that the speech marks sometimes are part of the name and putting them around all names regardless of that removes that distinction. It wouldn't be immediately obvious to a reader that they are part of the title of "Deep, Deep Vibes" but are not part of the title of "Happy & Sappy". Similar cases are ""Hurry Up!" Ground BGM" and ""It's-a Me, Mario!"", where I think the double quotation marks look bad. A solution I'd be fine with is to only use the quotation marks in running text and not tables, which seems to already be done on many album pages (though I'm still opposed to using quotation marks at all for mission names since I don't think it's an established standard). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:48, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Why is it more immediately important to relay that quotation marks are part of a subject's title over the fact that it is a song as opposed to something else? — Nintendo101 (talk) 04:57, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Because the goal of saying the title is simply to say the title, not to also clarify immediately what kind of thing it is. That's what context is for, not titles. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Then why do we italicize game titles? - Nintendo101 (talk) 09:39, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Because it's an established standard (and one Nintendo sometimes adheres to), unlike putting quotes around mission names. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:26, January 8, 2025 (EST)
Very few novels put quotation marks around their own chapter titles. Independent reference material on those novels always do. Do you think we would not italicize video game titles if Nintendo themselves did not? - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:02, January 8, 2025 (EST)
What reference material puts quotation marks around video game mission titles that were not present in the game? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:11, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I would have personally appreciated it if you had engaged with the question I asked, or at least engage with whether you think it is accurate to say an episode in Super Mario Sunshine is essentially one of its "chapters." That was the point I was trying to make.
I am hardly familiar with any independent sources that discuss missions at all, let along put quotation marks around their names when they show up in a sentence, and I hope it is apparent from the articles I contribute to the most that I do exercise that diligence. (There may be sources that chronicle RPG titles like Final Fantasy where certain scenarios or chapters in the games have quotation marks around them, iirc, but platformers are typically not discussed with the same rigor because most of them have weaker narrative elements.) When compared to literature, film, and music, video games are a younger medium that is still not chronicled or discussed with the same care in academic or archival projects, which is where precedents for this type of thing would be set. They are still viewed as products first and creative works second in many circles. Consequently, for all intents and purposes, the people who want granular information on the Super Mario series are likely to come to the Super Mario Wiki before anywhere else, and I do not see that changing in the near or distant future. We would very much be the ones establishing this precedent. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I think the reason we italicise game titles is because of it being a standard in other sources, which putting quotes around mission names is not, regardless of the reason for that. I don't see why it should be our job to set this precedent. Following established practice is very different to inventing it. And I don't agree that missions are equivalent to chapters because I feel like missions in Mario games are often more equivalent to levels in other Mario games, which I certainly do not want us to be putting quotes around. Like Salmancer argued in their vote, the idea that missions have more narrative content than levels is not always accurate (and I don't see why narrative content should be a decider anyway in a franchise that is not primarily focused on narrative). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:33, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I do not want to set it because it is "our job." I want to set it because I think it is a beneficial tool. It is also not some sort of value judgement like Salmancer suggested. It is acknowledging that the Bob-omb Battlefield and "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" are not equivalencies within the game they occur in: the former is a level, whereas the latter is a scenario within the level. They are not the same thing. Bowser Jr. Showdown, regardless of how it was localized in English, is the name of a unique level. A location. It is within a greater region (a world), but that is exactly like World 1-1 or Vanilla Secret 2. When you access "Footrace with Koopa the Quick," you are accessing the same level as "Big Bob-omb on the Summit," so it is not the equivalency to something like Bowser Jr. Showdown and is exactly why I made the disclaimer I did in the proposal about level names. The lack of quotation marks does not mean Bowser Jr. Showdown is devoid of any narrative context, just that it is a level only. If there were different discrete scenarios like missions within Bowser Jr. Showdown that had names, that would be another matter. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:14, January 8, 2025 (EST)
I don't see how it being a "scenario" (which is already a pretty loose distinction imo) should mean it gets quotation marks if that isn't a standard. In the same way levels and missions aren't equivalent subjects, nor are levels and worlds, or levels and items, or levels and characters. Deciding that this particular distinction can't just be gleaned from context like all those others can and instead needs us to invent an extra indicator feels arbitrary to me. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:27, January 8, 2025 (EST)
It is not that readers, necessarily, will believe that the quotation marks are actually present around things they are not. It is that, if the reader had any desire to see if quotation marks surrounded something, they could not get this information from us except from marginal implicities that are basically by accident. By contrast, whether or not a name is a location or a mission is extremely easy information to obtain on this wiki without quotation marks — readers can simply click on the link and find out at the very top of that subject's article what it is. I've never spoken to a person who's run into the issue of confusing episode and level names, but even if they weren't equally unsubstantiated, why should we obfuscate information to cater to them when they are five seconds away from solving their problem? Ahemtoday (talk) 21:55, January 8, 2025 (EST)

@Hewer I think you have misunderstood the proposal. I did not argue this was common practice or had precedent. My argument is that quotation marks often convey the type of subject and that it is part of a greater whole. Missions are narrative scenarios within a larger creative work, just like episodes in a television show, scenes in a film (which also get placed within quotation marks when titled), and named book chapters. I think that is intuitive. They are ontologically all the same thing in different media and — like them — they inherit the same benefits from quotation marks. They passively relay the same info: that this is a scenario within a creative work as opposed to, say, a location within a creative work. — Nintendo101 (talk) 04:54, January 8, 2025 (EST)

I understand you weren't arguing that this had precedent, my point is that that was an argument for the opposition in the music proposal that I don't think can be applied here, thus I think the case for quotes around missions is weaker than that for quotes around music. Quotation marks only help to indicate what type of subject it is if the reader is already aware that that is what they are meant to indicate, which they aren't as likely to be for mission titles due to it not being a common practice (and again, it doesn't match how the games themselves do it, so I think it would probably add more confusion, not reduce it). The quotation marks around "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" don't indicate it being a mission any more than it being a song. I also personally don't think the distinction between levels and missions, especially in Mario games, is that significant. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:18, January 8, 2025 (EST)
The intent is to clarify that "Footrace with Koopa the Quick" is a scenario in a place, whereas Bob-omb Battlefield is the place. I have found this very helpful in the articles I have contributed to. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:47, January 8, 2025 (EST)

I argue "death of the author". People will read this as "we're putting quotation marks around missions and not levels because missions are more like television episodes than levels are". This will happen because levels in 2D Super Mario games and missions in 3D Super Mario games are more or less equivalent; the concept of "place" vs "event in place" is wibbly-wobbly in video game land unless the option of replaying them with the same save file is cut off, and this proposal is putting one set of "events in places" over the other. I read the entire proposal and came to that exact conclusion. And to the theoretical confusion of "3D platformer level" to "mission", what of "2D platformer world" to "level"? What makes declaring Footrace with Koopa the Quick to be a part of Bob-omb Battlefield but not of the same type as Bob-omb Battlefield any more important than declaring Bowser Jr. Showdown is part of Meringue Clouds but not of the same type as Meringue Clouds? This has to be done for both kinds of relationships. This, of course, is relevant because Worlds in New Super Mario Bros. games started to include interactive elements that work based on how they do in the levels, and I think this proposal is targeted at prose for such interactive elements in their articles, like explaining where and when things appear. Sure, this makes something like Cosmic block's first sentence in it's Super Mario Galaxy section marginally clearer if someone has already read the Manual of Style, but why shouldn't Spine Coasters get this treatment when they appear in Thrilling Spine Coaster and in Rock-Candy Mines? Salmancer (talk) 23:19, January 8, 2025 (EST)

I don't think "death of the author" applies here because the distinction of mission vs. level is informed by the game itself, not by what the creators of the game say it should be.
The reason why Bob-omb Battlefield isn't the equivalent of a world is because the first floor in Super Mario 64 is the world, and this is part of how the game is physically organized. You only gain access to another floor if you clear the first Bowser course of the first floor. The only games with missions that don't have worlds for their levels are Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Odyssey. The other three do: Super Mario 64 has there levels broken up into floors; Super Mario Galaxy has domes; and Super Mario Galaxy 2 has what are literally called Worlds. So if the the equivalency of the Terrace in New Super Mario Bros. U is Acorn Plains, and the equivalency of Good Egg Galaxy is Acorn Plains Way, than what is the equivalency of "A Snack of Cosmic Proportions?" The answer is there is none, because Acorn Plains Way doesn't have any episodes. - Nintendo101 (talk) 00:07, January 9, 2025 (EST)

@EvieMaybe, I restricted this proposal to what I am familiar with, which are the 3D Super Mario platformers. I do not have the knowledge or expertise to extend this proposal to Wario: Master of Disguise or Mario & Luigi: Brothership. I am only interested in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, and Super Mario Odyssey. I do not offhand think isolated Power Moons should be impacted by this proposal. - Nintendo101 (talk) 00:13, January 9, 2025 (EST)

New features

Create a template to direct the user to a game section on the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page

This proposal aims to create a template that directs people to a game section on a Profiles and statistics list page, saving the user the step of having to scroll for it themselves. The reason why I'm proposing this is because as more Super Mario games are released, it becomes harder to comfortably find what you're searching for in the corresponding List of profiles and statistics page, especially for Mario, Bowser, and many other recurring subjects.

Another reason I think this would be valid is because of the fact that listing statistics in prose (e.g. 2/10 or 2 out of 10) looks off, especially if that can already be seen in the corresponding statistics box; in that case, the prose could change from "2/10" to something more vague like "very low stat", which isn't typically worded as such in the statistics box.

For example, let's say for Luigi in his appearance in Mario Sports Superstars, there could be a disclaimer either below the section heading or in a box to the side (we can decide the specifics when the proposal passes) that informs the reader that there's corresponding section that shows his profiles/statistics corresponding. Like such:

For profiles and statistics of Luigi in Mario Sports Superstars, see here.

The above message is not necessarily the final result (just a given example), but the disclaimer would definitely point the user to the appropriate game section on the profiles and statistics list page, should this pass.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per.
  2. Hewer (talk) I don't really see a need to deliberately make prose less specific, but otherwise I like this idea, per proposal.
  3. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per all.

Oppose

  1. Mario (talk) Doesn't seem necessary. Just a thought: should we also link to parts of character galleries for every game section?

Comments

@Hewer I don't think this would necessarily eliminate cases in which statistics are in prose, but it may be redundant if there's the link to conveniently access the statistics or profiles. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:15, December 18, 2024 (EST)

If I understood this correctly, would this proposal add a disclaimer to every sigle game in a character's History section if the character has a corresponding profile and/or statistics section for that game? That's basically 20+ disclaimers on almost every game in Luigi's History page, is that correct? — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 09:41, January 1, 2025 (EST)

I don't really see the problem if it's helpful, relevant links that aren't very intrusive anyway. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:08, January 2, 2025 (EST)

@Mario: I don't think the gallery comparison works. Galleries aren't split up into subsections for individual games in the same way as profiles and statistics pages, so it can't really be done the same way. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:16, January 3, 2025 (EST)

Removals

Delete Alternative Proto Piranha Images

This concerns these two image files, which are as of present unused.

The main argument is that not only are these two images taken using a hacked version of the game, but that they aren't actually even intended in the first place; while we don't know much about how Sunshine works under the hood, the leading theory is that the object for the Proto Piranha simply borrows the texture of whatever Goop is currently loaded. Given the resulting Proto Piranha inherits no other attributes of the goop aside from visuals, this definitely tracks. In addition, attempts to add these to TCRF were removed not once, but twice. Given these images have been languishing for a long while with no real use, it seems more-or-less fine to remove them to us.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Delete

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Given the lack of any glitches to even spawn a Proto Piranha in these areas, the dubious origin of the images themselves, and the fact that calling them "unused content" is a bit of a misnomer, we don't see any particular reason to keep these around--even the "the goop reflects the area it's loaded in" is already thoroughly demonstrated thanks to the images of the Proto Piranha as it already appears, in vanilla, in Delfino Airstrip and both Bianco Square and Bianco Hills. This, to us, would be like listing the thing where if you hack a Yoshi into a Castle stage in Super Mario World its head becomes a Lava Bubble as "unused content" for that game.
  2. Tails777 (talk) I'm leaning towards this. I feel this would be different if there was a video showcasing what happens when you insert a Proto Piranha in a place it otherwise doesn't spawn in, mostly because it's not uncommon for us to cover possibilities only possible through hacks. If we had a bit more to back it all up, that's be fine, but images without anything else doesn't really prove a lot. At best, this is like a small trivia point for Proto Piranhas, not unused content. They still look cool though..
  3. Jdtendo (talk) If it was not intended, then it is not unused content.
  4. Ray Trace (talk) The only thing that really kept me from nuking these images outright is because of lack of info and I'm glad that's cleared up in this proposal. Kill these.
  5. Technetium (talk) Here Ray Trace, you can borrow my FLUDD. Per all.
  6. Sparks (talk) Wash 'em away!

Keep

Comments (delete alternative proto piranha images)

i can see a case for keeping them around to illustrate how proto piranha's goo change isn't hardcoded, but i agree with the idea that a video might be better. i'll abstain for now. eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 09:57, January 4, 2025 (EST)

Delete the MP11/MP12/MP13 redirects

The existence of these was brought to our attention thanks to a redirect called Mario Party 13 (as of proposal, this leads to Super Mario Party Jamboree, which is already marked for deletion. This concerns both that redirect, as well as MP11, MP12, and MP13.

Simply put, these redirects seem to be entirely based on rather uncommon fan nicknames for Super Mario Party, Mario Party Superstars, and Super Mario Party Jamboree. We can't find any sources that call these games Mario Parties 11, 12, or 13. Random flavor text notes that Super Mario Party is "the 11th party", but that's as close as you get. And unlike, say, our similarly deprecated "God Slayer Bowser" redirect, we don't even think there's any particular confusion that those are the respective names of the games. Given the unofficial origins of these nicknames, as well as the fact they seem to not even be that used, we don't see any harm in getting rid of these.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: January 23, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Delete (party's over!)

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Fairly self-explanatory; unofficial title? That's a paddlin'. Unofficial title that doesn't even seem to be that widely used? That's a paddlin'.

Keep (party on!)

Comments (idle party chat)

Changes

Allow blank votes and reclassify them as "per all"

There are times when users have nothing else to add and agree with the rest of the points. Sure, they can type "per all", but wouldn't it be easier to not to have to do this?

Yeah sure, if the first oppose vote is just blank for no reason, that'll be strange, but again, it wouldn't be any more strange with the same vote's having "per all" as a reasoning. I've never seen users cast these kinds of votes in bad faith, as we already have rules in place to zap obviously bad faith votes.

This proposal wouldn't really change how people vote, only that they shouldn't have to be compelled to type the worthless "per all" on their votes.

Proposer: Mario (talk)
Deadline: January 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT January 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Blank support

  1. Mario (talk) Per all.
  2. Ray Trace (talk) Casting a vote in a side is literally an action of endorsement of a side. We don't need to add verbal confirmation to this either.
  3. PopitTart (talk) (This vote is left blank to note that I support this option but any commentary I could add would be redundant.)
  4. Altendo (talk) (Look at the code for my reasoning)
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk)
  6. OmegaRuby (talk) While on the outset it may seem strange to see a large number of votes where people say "per all" and leave, it's important to understand that the decision was made because the user either outright agrees with the entire premise of the proposal, or has read discussion and points on both sides and agrees more with the points made by the side they choose. And if they really are just mindlessly voting "per all" on proposals with no second thought, we can't police that at all. (Doing so would border on FBI-agent-tech-magic silliness and would also be extremely invading...)
  7. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) I've always thought of not allowing blank votes to be a bit of a silly rule, when it can so easily be circumvented by typing two words. I think it's better to assume good faith with voting and just let people not write if they don't have anything to add, it's not as if random IPs are able to vote on this page.
  8. TheDarkStar (talk) - Dunno why I have to say something if I agree with an idea but someone's already said what I'm thinking. A vote is a vote, imo.
  9. Ninja Squid (talk) Per proposal.
  10. Tails777 (talk) It's not like we're outright telling people not to say "Per all", it's just a means of saying you don't have to. If the proposal in question is so straight forward that nothing else can be said other than "Per proposal/Per all", it's basically the same as saying nothing at all. It's just a silent agreement. Even so, if people DO support a specific person's vote, they can still just "Per [Insert user's name here]". I see no problem with letting people have blank votes, especially if it's optional to do so in the first place.
  11. RetroNintendo2008 (talk)
  12. Fun With Despair (talk) I am arguably in agreement with some of the opposition who argue that even "per all" should go in favor of each voter making an argument or explaining themselves, but if "per all" stays, then I don't really have a problem with allowing blank votes as well. I would prefer a proposal on getting rid of "per all" overall as its a bit of a lazy cop-out (at least name a specific guy you agree with), but a blank vote ultimate just means they agree with the OP's point and chose to vote with them - and I don't have a problem with that.

Blank Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Honestly? I'd prefer to get rid of "per all" votes since they're primarily used for the "I don't/like this idea" type of thing that has historically been discouraged. If you don't care enough to explain, you don't care enough to cast IMO.
  2. Technetium (talk) I don't think typing "per all" is that much of an annoyance (it's only two words), and I like clearly seeing why people are voting (for instance, I do see a difference between "per proposal" and "per all" - "per all" implies agreeing with the comments, too). I just don't think this is something that needs changing, not to mention the potential confusion blank votes could cause.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Maybe we're a little petty, but we prefer a "per all" vote to a blank one, even if "per all" is effectively used as a non-answer, because it still requires that someone does provide an answer, even if it's just to effectively say "ditto". You know what to expect with a "per all" vote--you don't really get that information with a fully blank vote.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) Forgive me for the gimmicky formatting, but I want to make a point here — when you see a blank oppositional vote, it's disheartening, isn't it? Of course, it's always going to be that way when someone's voting against you, but when it doesn't come with any other thoughts, then you can't at all address it, debate it, take it into account — nothing. This also applies to supporting votes, if it's for a proposal you oppose. Of course, this is an issue with "per all" votes as well. I don't know if I'd go as far as Doc would on that, but if there's going to be these kinds of non-discussion-generating votes, they can at least be bothered to type two words.
  5. Jdtendo (talk) Per all (is it too much to ask to type just two words to explicitely express that you agree with the above votes?)
  6. Axii (talk) Requiring people to state their reason for agreeing or disagreeing with a proposal leads to unnecessary repetition (in response to Doc). Letting people type nothing doesn't help us understand which arguments they agreed with when deciding what to vote for. The proposer? Other people who voted? Someone in particular, maybe? Maybe everyone except the proposer? It's crucial to know which arguments were the most convincing to people.
  7. Pseudo (talk) Per Technetium, Camwoodstock, and Axii.
  8. Hooded Pitohui (talk) I admit this vote is based on personal preference as any defensible reasoning. To build on Camwoodstock and Ahemtoday's points, though, the way I see it, "per all" at least provides some insight into what has persuaded a voter, if only the bare minimum. "Per all" is distinct at least from "per proposal", suggesting another voter has persuaded them where the original proposal did not by itself. A blank vote would not provide even that distinction.
  9. Mister Wu (talk) Asking for even a minimal input from the user as to why they are voting is fundamental, it tells us what were the compelling points that led to a choice or the other. It can also aid the voters in clarifying to themselves what they're agreeing with. Also worth noting that the new editors simply can't know that blank means "per all", even if we put it at the beginning of this page, because new editors simply don't know the internal organization of the wiki. Blank votes would inevitably be used inappropriately, and not in bad faith.
  10. DesaMatt (talk) Per all and per everyone and per everything. Per.
  11. Blinker (talk) Per Technetium, Ahemtoday, Axii and Mister Wu.

Blank Comments

I don't think banning "per all" or "per proposal" is feasible nor recommended. People literally sometimes have nothing else to add; they agree with the points being made, so they cast a vote. They don't need to waste keystrokes reiterating points. My proposal is aiming to just streamline that thought process and also save them some keystrokes. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:34, December 17, 2024 (EST)

I think every sort of vote (on every level, on every medium) should be written-in regardless of whether something has been said already or not; it demonstrates the level of understanding and investment for the issue at hand, which in my opinion should be prerequisite to voting on any issue. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:53, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There is no way to actually determine this: we are not going to test voters or commenters their understanding of the subject. Someone can read all of the arguments and still just vote for a side because there's no need to reiterate a position that they already agree with. BabyLuigiFire.pngRay Trace(T|C) 20:55, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal belief is that "test[ing] voters or commenters their understanding of the subject" is exactly what should be done to avoid votes cast in misunderstanding or outright bandwagoning. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:06, December 17, 2024 (EST)
My personal view is that a change like the one you are suggesting potentially increases the odds of inexperienced or new users feeling too intimidated to participate because they feel like they do not have well articulated stances, which would be terrible. I think concerns about "bandwagoning" are overstated. However, more pressingly, this proposal is not even about this concept and it is not even one of the voting options, so I recommend saving this idea for another day. - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:32, December 17, 2024 (EST)
@Mario I agree. Banning people from saying that in proposals is restricting others from exercising their right to cast a vote in a system that was designed for user input of any time. I'd strongly oppose any measure to ban "per" statements in proposals. Super Mario RPG (talk) 00:11, December 18, 2024 (EST)
In my opinion, saying "per OP" or "per (insert user here) is just as much effort as saying "per all" and at least demonstrates a modicum of original thought. I think that a blank vote is essentially the same as just voicing that you agree with the OP, so I did vote for that option in this case - but I think per all does an equally poor job to a blank vote at explaining what you think. At least requiring specific users to be hit with the "per" when voting would give far more of a baseline than "per all". That's not really what this proposal is about though, so I won't dwell on it. --Fun With Despair (talk) 00:22, January 2, 2025 (EST)

Technetium: I understand, but blank votes are a fairly common practice in other wikis, and it's clearly understood that the user is supporting the proposal in general. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:36, December 17, 2024 (EST)

Fair point, I didn't know that. Not changing my vote just yet, but I'll keep this in mind as the proposal continues. Technetium (talk) 20:48, December 17, 2024 (EST)
There's a lot of variation in how other wikis do it. WiKirby, for example, doesn't even allow "per" votes last I checked. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:13, December 18, 2024 (EST)

I'm not really much of a voter, but I'm of the opinion "it's the principle of the matter". Requiring a written opinion, of any kind, at least encourages a consideration of the topic. Salmancer (talk) 21:35, December 19, 2024 (EST)

Do not treat one-time Super Mario RPG names as recurring names

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on January 10 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

This proposal is mainly aimed at Mini Goomba and Lava Bubble, though there may be others in this regard that I'm not aware of. Both of these enemies had names that were only used for the original version (Goombette and Sparky respectively) but we continue to use these names for the enemies for other appearances where no name is given for them until an appearance which they do e.g calling Lava Bubbles "Sparkies" in regards to Super Mario 64. Considering this is a game which had some questionable translations and the game's remake used properly translated names, I think we should only use these names in regards to the original Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars and instead use whichever name had been used beforehand for later appearances.

Proposer: Nightwicked Bowser (talk)
Deadline: January 17, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support (Super Mario RPG names)

  1. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per proposal
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) We shouldn't be treating a one-off oddball localization job as earnest renames.
  3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  4. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  5. Hewer (talk) Yeah I always thought this was a bit dumb, this is definitely a case where a bit of discretion is necessary. Per all.
  6. Jdtendo (talk) Per Sky Troopas, Spookums, and Shy Aways.
  7. OmegaRuby RPG: Legend of the Dragon Balls (talk) Per all.
  8. Pseudo (talk) Per all.
  9. Blinker (talk) THANK YOU. I remember years ago reading the Super Mario 64 section on Lava Bubble and thinking that was an actual name they were called in that game. It doesn't help that history sections are often not completely in chronological order.
  10. LeftyGreenMario (talk) It's quite a marvel to see how thorough of a negative impact these names have on the wiki.
  11. EvieMaybe (talk) per WT
  12. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per Neosquid.
  13. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Goby.

Nintendo101 RPG: Legend of the Silver Frogs (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose (Super Mario RPG names)

Comments (Super Mario RPG names)

There are a few instances in which recurring names are listed for other one-off games, like Spark Spooks from Yoshi's Story, if information serves correct. Perhaps the maintenance done if this proposal passes could be extended to instances from games other than Super Mario RPG? Small Luigi doing the V-sign in the Super Mario All-Stars remaster of Super Mario Bros. OmegaRuby [ Talk / Contribs ] 08:32, January 3, 2025 (EST)

I actually disagree with pointing fingers at the original game while NOA in general was still clearly figuring things out as they were going along (Lava Bubble isn't the greatest example since Podoboo lasted for quite a while). Maybe rephrase this as "names that were changed in the remake" because that's what this proposal is really targeting. I have a separate idea on how to handle unchanged one-offs like Yo'ster Isle that might conflict with another proposal I had in mind. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, the Yo'ster Isle example should already be dealt with by this proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)

Actually, this has been on my mind even long before the remake came out so I won't be rephrasing the proposal. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 15:08, January 3, 2025 (EST)
The remake is handing you something quantifiable to work with on a silver platter besides "translation bad." Why not? LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:12, January 3, 2025 (EST)
Because it's my proposal and I'll phrase it how I see it. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 15:17, January 3, 2025 (EST)
You'd get the same overall effect but with a better precedent behind it is my point. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:24, January 3, 2025 (EST)
I don't see how the Podoboo -> Lava Bubble rename affects this in any meaningful way? Blinker (talk) 15:41, January 3, 2025 (EST)
Lava Bubble didn't appear in a manual or game yet, so by present rules, this passing would result in swapping Sparky with Podoboo in Super Mario 64 (released a mere 3~4 months apart) - one non-current name for another. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:47, January 3, 2025 (EST)
That is my exact intent here. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 15:49, January 3, 2025 (EST)
This reminds me that my original idea was to use the term "Bubble" for Super Mario 64, given the peculiarities, albeit still covering it in the Lava Bubble article. That would just leave resized Goomba, as mentioned below. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:46, January 4, 2025 (EST)
"Lava Bubble" is employed in Mario Mania, and while I understand this is a lower-priority source since instruction booklets are physically packaged with the games, I do personally hold that at equal value since Mario Mania is a guidebook for Super Mario World written by Nintendo of America, who also translated and wrote the instruction booklet. (I don't know if NoA has ever felt inclined to specify this anywhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if the guidebook and instruction booklet even involve the same individual staff members.) I understand how it is intuitively confusing to see how an enemy called "Lava Bubble" in the Super Mario World section of its own article suddenly be called "Sparky" in the Super Mario 64 section (which, technically, it is not called anywhere at all in the English material for that game), only for it to be called "Lava Bubble" again in the next immediate section. So I understand the appeal.
This is tangential, but personally, I am not even really certain the "Lava Bubble" in Super Mario 64 is supposed to be the recurring enemy we see elsewhere since it looks like an ambient plume of fire, and we only refer to it as a "Lava Bubble" because the internal filename for this thing is "BUBBLE." I dunno if that literally means it is intended to be the same subject. If it really is the same subject, I know the Japanese name for Lethal Lava Land is ファイアバブル ランド (Faia Baburu Rando, Fire Bubble Land). Is the land named after the enemy? Because if that is the case, maybe it would be more accurate to refer to Lava Bubbles as "Lethal Lavas" in Super Mario 64-related portions of the wiki, not "Sparkies." - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:09, January 3, 2025 (EST)
Responding to your tangent, as mentioned in the Lava Bubble article, the enemy's design in 64 DS was reused in New Super Mario Bros., which further indicates that, at least in the remake, those are intended to be Lava Bubbles. Blinker (talk) 16:28, January 3, 2025 (EST)
If memory serves, there's no real name for the object designated as "BUBBLE" in any material (or at least, nothing jumped out to me). For whatever reason, it's harder to find than Keronpa Ball, having completely fallen by the wayside. Having said that, I think a reasonable conclusion has been drawn in the absence of anything better to go off on. Doc added the part about the course name, I think. But - since this proposal is mainly eyeing Lava Bubble and Mini Goomba - I should mention that Mini Goomba is another can of worms. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:36, January 3, 2025 (EST)
@Nintendo101 - Not until we start listing the Magikoopa species in SMRPG as "Merlins." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:22, January 5, 2025 (EST)
@Doc von Schmeltwick is that the same situation? "Lethal Lava Land" is the name of the level... in the game as it was released. The average player is shown this name. "Merlin" is just in the codes and not nakedly presented to the player. - Nintendo101 (talk) 12:49, January 6, 2025 (EST)

Organize "List of implied" articles

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on January 12 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

Here's one of those "two related proposals in one with a YY-YN-NY-NN support scheme" proposals, concerning the following articles:

Right now, each of these is sorted purely alphabetically, with no regards for where or when they were implied to exist. The closest thing to an attempt at organization is Locations dividing between fictional and real locations, which also happens to expose a flaw with this particular article: nearly all the implied locations are there simply because they're mentioned on the Globulator, with no other substance to their entry. All of these cities are already listed on the Globulator article anyways.

There are other changes I'd like to propose for some particular articles, but for now, let's leave it at these two:

  • Reorganize: Sort each article chronologically like your average History section, divided by series and then by game. This should help lump, say, all the Marvelous Compass locations in one place, or all the celebrities namedropped in the Super Show.
  • Deglobulize: Remove all real world locations from List of implied locations that are there exclusively because they're mentioned in the Globulator. This would exclude entries like Brazil, who have more to discuss than merely being acknowledged. I consider Locations the article on this list that needs the most trimming, so if this half of the proposal doesn't pass, I won't bother making follow-up articles for trimming the rest.

Proposer: EvieMaybe (talk)
Deadline: January 19, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Both reorganize and deglobulize

  1. EvieMaybe (talk) primary choice.
  2. LadySophie17 (talk) Seems reasonable. I never liked how confusing these pages are.
  3. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
  4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
  5. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  6. Technetium (talk) Hmm what's the Globulator? *checks page* Oh. Oh god. Yeah that's a per proposal if I've ever seen one.
  7. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer and Technetium.
  8. Camwoodstock (talk) Yipe. We knew the Globulator was causing issues, but we didn't expect them to be... That. And, of course, re-orgnaizing the remainder is fine.
  9. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.

Only reorganize

  1. EvieMaybe (talk) secondary choice.

Only deglobulize

Do not reorganize nor deglobulize (do nothing)

List of implied comments

If deglobulize wins, I think a disclaimer should be added to the list of implied locations (either at the top of the article or the top of the "Real locations" section) explaining that the Globulator doesn't count. Also, if reorganize wins, does the location list keep its "Super Mario franchise locations" and "Real locations" sections? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:05, January 5, 2025 (EST)

that first one is a good idea, def should be implemented. i want to say yes for the second one, but i think it depends on what the article ends up looking like when reorganized. eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 16:08, January 5, 2025 (EST)

Simplify "wikitable dk"

This is proposing to slightly simplify the "wikitable dk" class into something that both maintains the elements of a wikitable (such as the gray border and blank background) while maintaining the Donkey Kong theme. Since the current one isn't the most comfortable to read (at least for me), I've thought of a middle ground that I think ultimately looks nicer and feels more consistent with the site design and wikitables in general, so if this proposal passes, the "wikitable dk" style would look like the following:

Image Name Amount
An Awk Awk 16
Frogoon Frogoon 3
A Tiki Goon Tiki Goon 4
Close-up of a Screaming Pillar Screaming Pillar 4
Rawk.png Rawk 3

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: January 21, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per

Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - The proposed "solution" to the alleged "issue" just looks ugly to me.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) I think the way they look now is serviceable enough as long as it remains easy to for other users to edit. It does the passive job of communicating to the reader that they are reading a Donkey Kong article. I'm not opposed to revisions though - maybe things can be further simplified - I just think the one recommended in this proposal is a little too simple though.
  3. GuntherBayBeee (talk) I tell you what.
  4. Lakituthequick (talk) While the existing table style is not winning any prizes, getting rid of colours is not something I support. In fact, if standardised to an extend, I would actually support a bit more colour, especially since the last table proposal.
  5. Fun With Despair (talk) Honestly, I just think it looks fine as-is. Several professional spreadsheets such as schedules I have worked on also alternate the tones of their rows - it's just easier on the eyes.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) Alternating colors are a thing on many, many tables--usually, very large ones, like spreadsheets. While the current one is, admittedly, a tad gaudy, it's perfectly clear and readable.
  7. Ray Trace (talk) Per all, especially Lakituthequick

Comments

why not use a brown heading with white text? eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)

@EvieMaybe Do you or @Doc von Schmeltwick have a suggestion which shade of brown can be used? I stated in the proposal that I'm open for suggestions of a better color to use. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:18, January 7, 2025 (EST)
I think it looks just fine as-is... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:20, January 7, 2025 (EST)
It's not the most accessible in my opinion, and it doesn't match the simple aesthetic of this website. It would also fall in line with the precedent set to use simpler table styles. This is the only style with that inconsistency. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:22, January 7, 2025 (EST)
@EvieMaybe Okay, so I think I found a shade of brown that works well while still actually making it look like an actual wikitable, so I've altered the wikitable style accordingly. Super Mario RPG (talk) 13:24, January 7, 2025 (EST)
you sure about the colored rows? it doesn't really match the rest of the wiki's style. the darker brown on the top looks pretty good, though. eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 18:27, January 7, 2025 (EST)
Nintendo101 said it looked a bit too simplified, so I added the colors myself. Do you have a different idea for row colors? Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:31, January 7, 2025 (EST)

@Nintendo101 Want to draft up something that would look less simplified so I can get an idea of what you're stating? Wait, I think I found something. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:12, January 7, 2025 (EST)

For what it's worth, I have been sitting on a proposal for more colourful table styles since the last Grand Table Proposal™, but still need to actually, like, write and post it. As I said in that one, I am not against getting rid of colour, that would only serve to make things more boring.
I do not actually know how things work when proposals with directly relating goals are posted at the same time, so I will refrain from posting mine until at least after this one settles. Lakituthequick.png Lakituthequick 23:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I was thinking of doing that as well, though I never really had a solid plan. My only idea was to tie it into a similar system on the wiki and use the same coloration guides as navboxes for tables. Ahemtoday (talk) 21:59, January 8, 2025 (EST)

Miscellaneous

Normalise splitting long References to/in other media sections

Last year, I successfully proposed that the References to other media section on The Super Mario Bros. Movie article should be split into its own article due to its length, with the same later occurring for the References in later games section on Super Mario Bros. On the TPP for splitting the latter section, the user EvieMaybe supported saying "i wonder what'll be the next game to require this". That got me to realise that other articles with these sections are of similar length, and suffer the same problems that I originally pointed out in those past proposals. Select examples that I've been able to find include the following:

Again, these are just examples. There's probably more out there that are equally as long. If this proposal were to achieve support, there would have to be some sort of guideline (similar to splitting galleries) relating to a certain limit at which the section is split, possibly a maximum of 20-30 bullet points or certain number of bytes before splitting, as the sections I've cited as examples go over said amount of bullet points. Normalising this would also prevent anyone from having to make separate TPPs to suggest splitting each and every long section separately, and would also help create some consistency, as it doesn't make much sense for only a few select references to/in other media sections to be split rather than more.

Proposer: RetroNintendo2008 (talk)
Deadline: January 18, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. RetroNintendo2008 (talk) Per all.

EvieMaybe (talk) look ma, i'm on tv! yeah, this seems like a very reasonable thing to do

Oppose

  1. Waluigi Time (talk) I support in principle, but I'm against the proposed implementation here. We already have MarioWiki:Article size for determining what to do when pages get too long, so what I would like to see is simply considering references sections as things that can get split off when that happens. Of the pages linked in this proposal, SMB2 and 3 don't even meet the minimum byte count for a split (SMB2 falls especially short at ~85k bytes). SMB didn't meet those criteria before the proposal either and I think that should be reversed. These lists aren't that long all things considered and they're kept pretty low on the page so I don't think their presence is necessarily intrusive.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Waluigi Time; we already have policies for this, and we see no need to carve out any exceptions for the references section just yet.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Per Waluigi Time. A good idea in principal, but only if warranted on a case-by-case basis. I generally do not like splitting up pages unless necessary.
  4. EvieMaybe (talk) per Waluigi Time, i hadn't considered that. i hope that if this proposal ends with Oppose bc of everyone backing WT, we still remember that we can split reference sections to trim article size
  5. Technetium (talk) Per Waluigi Time.

Comments

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