Talk:Yoshi (species)

Knife, Yoshis do change color in Super Mario Sunshine. Haven't you completely played the game? Wa _T^C_@^Y 21:02, 13 December 2006 (EST)

I have and SoS states that only the main Yoshi has appeared in it. See the main Yoshi's talk page.Knife (talk)

I personally think the Yoshis on sunshine are a sub spiecies of Yoshis who change color as they eat.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pal101 (talk).

Colors

Shouldnt ALL those different color Yoshi's be merged with this? - Ultimatetoad

Ummm....hello? - Ultimatetoad

I agree. There can be a section about the colors of Yoshis, similar to Toads. I don't see many distinctive properties about the Yoshi colors and they should be merged into this article.Knife (talk) 20:34, 28 February 2007 (EST)

I agree as well. Per Knife. --KPH2293 21:46, 28 February 2007 (EST)

I disagree because they are a sub-species. ^Plumber 15:03, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

Excess Express.

I've played the game, but I don't remember being any Yoshis (other than your partner of course). --Bentendo 16:50, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

neither do I, Xzelion^ETC

He's on the train, shows up randomly and says he hopes he isn't late getting home or his wife will kill him or something. -- Sir Grodus

He also talks about his love of curry, and his preference of it over meat... (Sometimes.) --YellowYoshi398 16:54, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

hmm.... I never seen one on there... I'll take your word for it, Xzelion^ETC

Really? I don't remember that! Happily I'm almost there on my second play through (about to defeat cortez). Could you explain where he is? --Bentendo 11:49, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

I can't really remember, I think near the dining cart or in it, but only occasionally; I think he might be green or orange or something. -- Sir Grodus

He isn't there the first time you play through.

The Yoshi is in the dining car, standing next to the door that leads to the cabins 003-005. He's green, though. He isn't there the first time you play, through, but every time you ride the Excess Express again, he shows up randomly. He's also the only Yoshi in the game besides the Yoshi Kid. Maybe the developers thought having a Yoshi in your party would make up for that, so they didn't include that many. That Yoshi has a saddle, too... --Jolene

I can verify Jolene's statement, if you haven't been convinced already. It's a very well hidden Easter Egg. Thanks for describing it for me, Jolene! Stumpers! 15:53, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

Plural

Is the plural form of the species name Yoshis or Yoshies? It's actually used both ways depending on which game you play, I've heard. I just need to know which one was used more recently then. Maybe in Yoshi's Island DS? Stumpers! 16:02, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

Theoretically etymologically, it should be Yoshi, but mistakes like this happen all the time, or it could be an exception.Saudy^Talk!

Hmm... I remember there was a web site that talked about this. Stumpers! 17:03, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

Canonical spelling is Yoshis.Knife (talk) 22:23, 14 July 2007 (EDT)

No. Canonical spelling is both Yoshis and Yoshies. It's explained in the article.

The plural for Yoshi has often come up in debates. Some argue that "Yoshis" is the proper term, while others argue that "Yoshies" is correct. Japanese plurals have no indicative marks, meaning that "Yoshi" is another (unlikely) possibility. Nintendo of America has used both "Yoshies" and "Yoshis" in the Super Nintendo and Game Boy Advance versions of Yoshi's Island, respectively. It could be that both versions are valid.

To have it said, I somehow dislike the concept of "canon". - Cobold (talk · contribs) 15:24, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

I think it's Yoshis. It is even spelled like that in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games! Superfiremario

Yoob

is he realy a Yoshi? I thought he was a robot... Max2 (talk)

He does seem robotic, but he's probably still worthy of mention as he's clearly based on the Yoshis. I agree with you in that I don't think he should be listed under Notable Yoshis, though. YELLOWYOSHI398

i think yoob is a yoshi.purifieda

Yoshi (isle delfino)?

Either we should make another section, or make a new article! The Yoshis on Isle Delfino CAN'T be the Yoshis we know! That might have to change this Yoshi article to Yoshi (yoshi's island) or something. Tell me no or yes. It's facts! I mean, does Yoshi have cancer all the time? No! New article, or new section?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Minimariolover10 (talk).

New section would probably be best, or just put Isle Delfino info in the appropriate sections in this article. Just because the game mechanics are different doesn't mean these are a different species of Yoshi. They are all the same Yoshis - gameplay is different between all games. And I don't think any character has ever had cancer in the Mario games. -- Son of Suns

Actually the Super Mario Sunshine's manual says Yoshis found in Isle Delfino can't stand water, so it's likely they are separate from the other Yoshis.

Mister Wu (talk) 20:06, 11 February 2015 (EST)

Let's just do another section. I'm just saying, those can't be Yoshi's Island Yoshis! And I was only kidding about cancer, because ya know how they're about to do die if they're green. Minimariolover10

i think yoshis from isle delfino are yoshi's island yoshis.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Purifieda (talk).

Gold Yoshi

Why isn't there a gold yoshi article cos he appeared as an unlockobable character in yoshi's storySuper Yoshi10Lookey This

There was White and Black Yoshi... do you have video footage or anything that we could use as proof? Stumpers! 00:01, 22 June 2008 (EDT)

Mario Super Sluggers

Why is there no info about Mario Super Sluggers in this article? Strange...F g

Everything where there's a single character called "Yoshi" on the selection screen is placed in the Yoshi article. Stumpers! 00:02, 22 June 2008 (EDT)

Merge color Yoshies into Yoshi (species)

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome Black Yoshi, Red Yoshi, Yellow Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, Orange Yoshi, White Yoshi, Light Blue Yoshi, Brown Yoshi, Pink Yoshi, Green Yoshi and Purple Yoshi. Most of those Yoshies have minute differences between them, and the ones that do have notable differences, well, those differences just aren't notable enough. If we leave, say, White, Black, Red, Blue and Yellow split and merge the rest, it wouldn't be consistent, whereas if we leave one or two really major ones, it would be fair, like Blue Toad and Yellow Toad.

Proposer: Reversinator (talk)
Deadline: 24 February, 2010 20:00

Support

1. Reversinator (talk) Proposer.
2. Red Shell 68066vr (talk) Per Reversinator.

Oppose

1. Tucayo (talk) - This has been rejected previously. Yoshis are different, have different powers, abilities, etc
2. Time Q (talk): Strict NO. Per Tucayo, they are all different, there are also some sources (comics) which are not yet included in the wiki in which there are also differently-colored Yoshis who have different caracteristics etc. This merging mania on the wiki has to have an end. We're the Mario Wiki, what else could we cover exactly if not a major species in the Mario series?
3. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk) Per all. This issue had already brought up.
4. Supermariofan14 (talk) Per Tucayo.

Comments

@Tucayo: You say that the idea was rejected in the past, but now that I look at this talk page, there's a section towards the top of the page in where Knife and KPH (both sysops at the time) agree in merging the articles. Although why it never happened is beyond my knowledge. --Garlic Man (talk)

All right, where has this been previously discussed? Reversinator (talk)

I also notice that most of the Yoshi color articles are either short, one-section articles (e.g. Orange Yoshi and Purple Yoshi), and some, like Light Blue Yoshi are a collection of one-line sections, many of them simply discussing a color-change of Yoshi as a playable character. If one of Yoshi's color swaps is Light Blue, does that mean that it is then a different character entirely? If anybody remembers the Mario (species) article (which is now in BJAODN I believe), it was something silly about Mario being a species because of his different "pigments". That article was treated as a joke (appropriately so), but the way these Yoshi articles are written imply that when Yoshi from Super Mario Galaxy eats a fruit and becomes an orange color, it has become a different character rather than just a differently-colored generic Yoshi. This is something that should be cleared up. --Garlic Man (talk)

If it's just a different color change as associated with an ability, I think it should stay like that in the Yoshi article, as it refers the color of the Yoshi. Just don't list directly as the main orange Yoshi; just say "In Super Mario Galaxy 2, when a Green Yoshi eats blah, he changes color, which is orange. Note that this is not an actual orange Yoshi, just a color change that represents an orange Yoshi" or something like that. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

You still haven't explained where it was originally discussed. Reversinator (talk)

Well, it wasn't directly explained here, but it's still the same subject. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

This proposal of the opposite of that proposal. Reversinator (talk)

@Garlic: well, yeah, but that was 2007 :P We may have to see what they (Knife) think now. @Reversinator: Proposals. All failed. --™ The 'Shroom 20:36, 17 February 2010 (EST)

@Reversinator: I know it was the opposite, but it's the main reason why we have the Yoshi pages all separate and other colored enemies merged. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Assuming

Are we just assuming things about Yoshis? First of all, how do we know the Yoshi that appears as a playable character in Mario games is the same as the Green Yoshi that appears in games as a species? Shouldn't the appearances of Yoshi where it is a species be specific solely to the Green Yoshis page? The appearances where he is playable in spin-offs or is clearly his own character are the only appearances that should even be on his page.

Also, there's problems with the Yoshis appearing in SMG2. IT's not the light blue or orange Yoshis at all, it's a singular Green Yoshi, or the Yoshi himself, turning into an ORange and Light Blue Yoshi. It's not the same though because Yoshi has changed colors before, always first as Green Yoshi or "the" Yoshi, and you can even see this Yoshis shoe colors aren't even changing. How does that count as ORange and Light Blue Yoshi appearing as they are listed to? Panchito 08:26, 2 March 2010 (EST)

The color changes are worth mentioning because they represent the color being changed to. We can just say, "In Monosodium Glutamate 2, orange is one of the colors Yoshi transforms into, blah blah blah," because it's still an orange Yoshi, just a differently colored Green Yoshi.

For the Green Yoshis part, usually, the gaming manual or some other source says "Mario this time rides on Yoshi!" and they don't say a Green Yoshi. But multiple Green Yoshis appear in the game, and we know that Yoshi can't appear in more than one place at a time, no matter how freaky Nintendo is, so that makes that green Yoshi a species.

Ray Trace^(T|C)

Yoshis

I've seen articles use Yoshi, Yoshis and I think even Yoshies as the plural form of Yoshi. So what is it? Hello, I'm Time Turner.

It's already been discussed. Time Questions 09:09, 3 May 2010 (EDT)

Umm

Your getting it all wrong when Yoshi first appeared, he first appear in The game with the same name as Yoshi. But, if you mean the Mario series, your right. ~~User:Paper Culex~~

The First Appearance concerns the overall Mario series, so the article is correct. - Walkazo 18:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Putting all colors of Yoshies into one article

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome I think we should put all the colors in one article, so that helps the wiki get more organized.

Proposer: MarioManiac (talk)
Deadline: June 1, 2011, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. MarioManiac (talk) Per my proposal.
2. Mpeng (talk) Given that all of the different colored Yoshi articles don't seem to have all too much useful information, I say merge them. Unless someone can come along and add a considerable amount to each of them.

Oppose

1. Goomba's Shoe15 (talk) each yoshi has it's own abilities and appear in seperate games at the same time it makes no sense to merge them into one article also this article would be huge and overly confusing since there are like 10 different colors of Yoshi who have appeared through out the years and each one of them would have to be given a bio section to detail what they have done in the mario series which would be huge since the different colors of Yoshi often appear in many different games serving many roles.
2. Reddragon19k (talk) Per Goomba! Red Yoshi appeared many times! So does the green one! Leave it!
3. Tails777 (talk) Per Goomba's Shoe15. Each Yoshi was different appearences and abilites. It would be hard to include all info on one page of every Yoshi colour.
4. Doopliss101 (talk) Per Goomba's Shoe15 and Tails777.
5. Zero777 (talk) We already discuss about this, but per all.
6. DKPetey99 (talk) Different color ones appear in different games. I guess thats my way of saying: "Per the Goomba in a shoe-sized 15 That was lame! Per Goomba's Shoe15."
7. Mariomario64 (talk) Per those who per Goomba's Shoe15.
8. yoshiyoshiyoshi (talk)Per the best thing Goombas Shoe15has ever said,and per the opposing comments on the earlier version of this proposal
9. BoygeyDude (talk)
10. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk) I have dealt with this extensively before and my reasons for opposing any split between these articles stand. My reason: all have different abilities.
11. Mario4Ever (talk) Je suis d'accord avec tout le monde.
12. M&SG (talk) - Not all Yoshi colors have appeared in each game. Keeping them separate helps to figure out which games they've appeared in, along with their abilities.
13. Mariomaster228 (talk) Per M&SG.
14. Mario vs Luigi (talk) Per all.
15. SuperYoshiBros (talk) Per all.
16. UltraMario3000 (talk) Per all.

Comments

@Goomba: We can just give each color it's own section.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarioManiac (talk).

Who signed this? Superfiremario

Ta-daa. Yoshiwaker

@MarioManiac you want to merge 11 colors into one article despite the fact that each some colors have played a large part in the Mario series and have displayed unique abilities not to mention the length of said article fitting in info on each game apperance by each color of yoshi which would create a huge article that would be less efficent than what we have now Goomba's Shoe15 (talk)

By the way, isn't there a TPP right up there that is simmeral to this? Superfiremario

Rideable

Should we move the info of Yoshi being rideable here? I think the Yoshis you ride are Yoshi species. Superfiremario

yes, i think all yoshis are yoshi species. purifieda

Yeah, most of the info in the Powers and Abilities section of Yoshi's page can be moved here, although his page should still mention all the abilities. - Walkazo 09:54, 7 August 2011 (EDT)

how can you tell is a Yoshi is female?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Grand Master Gamer (talk).

Dialogue. - Walkazo 11:43, 28 June 2014 (EDT)

Are Yoshis no longer dinosaurs?

The Nintendo U.K.'s "Nintendo Kids Club" site says in the "Read & discover" section that Yoshi is not a dinosaur. Is it just a "mistake" of this site or has any information that states that Yoshi is a dinosaur been removed from recent games as well?Mister Wu (talk) 17:05, 1 December 2014 (EST)

Source for the artwork of Yoshi without a shoe

What is the source of this very interesting artwork? It seems a Japanese guide or manual related to Super Mario World but there's not much information about it. Mister Wu (talk) 20:15, 11 February 2015 (EST)

I have an idea.

Why don't you add the order of Yoshis in Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Island DS? --Mushroom Koop (talk) 08:42, 21 April 2015 (EDT)

Like what we do for the Koopalings? Sounds like a good idea - but perhaps we can do even better by replacing the bulleted list in the Colouration section with a chart about more than just those games - like a presence/absence chart on a spinoff page, only with the order numbers in the Yoshi platformers and the number of steps required to get each colour in PM:TTYD instead of plain check marks. - Walkazo 17:47, 21 April 2015 (EDT)

Golden Yoshi in the colours section

Should we add a Golden Yoshi alongside Magenta Yoshi in the colours section, because they are both from the same games? (T · C) 12:59, 2 June 2015 (EDT)

Bahamutt, Dorrie, and Plessie

I have decided to put these three as related to the Yoshi based upon their Japanese names being puns/following the same structure, and their similar heads/anatomy in general/roles, depending on the exact one. Would anyone be opposed to this? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:00, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I'm a bit iffy on Dorrie, but I can see the other two, after all Dorrie had goggles and no shell. And I think there is enough confusion on the Dorrie Page. Chat Man (talk) 00:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Doshi, in Japanese. As is Bahamutt. And it was only a shell in prerelease, in the final, it's a saddle, according to the book included with the All-Stars 25th anniversary thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:10, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I don't know, weren't you disgusted with the nature of my proposal, and how it's science, and now you're saying the opposite (With a name resembling Yoshi's as proof), stay consistent man. Chat Man (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I beg your pardon? Dorrie is still based off of a plesiosaur, just a plesiosaur-version of a Yoshi. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:22, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I think that's a bit of a stretch, perhaps it's best to just say Dorrie is the the species, cause you know odyssey and all. And I stand by my proposal (although I found an Infobox category for species based on, so that might be a nice thing to try and fail to propose). If there's one thing I can do, it's admit when I'm wrong, I believe you to be right for this case... I still think my proposal is right. Chat Man (talk) 00:27, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I did say related, not outright a member of the Yoshi species. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:29, 6 November 2017 (EST)

How do you plan on doing that? If so do you have references? Chat Man (talk) 00:30, 6 November 2017 (EST)

The "related" section of the infobox, due something similar for the template. As for references, I'd say the Japanese name being derived from it, coupled with the similar head shape and rideability, is enough of a reference. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:33, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I meant more reference to where you found the name, but I still think that it's a bit loose to be added as a fact. But has enough proof to be logical. I'll stay neutral on this one. Be wary, I'm still not convinced that's enough though. (Also I don't think rideability is a qualification for yoshi, just saying). Chat Man (talk) 00:40, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I imagine the name came from a shokakugan guide or the Japanese Mario Party Advance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:41, 6 November 2017 (EST)

The name came definitely earlier than Mario Party Advance, since Template:Media link, so I guess it came from the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario 64.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Eh, as long as the administrators are fine, go ahead and add it. Chat Man (talk) 00:48, 6 November 2017 (EST)

The problem is what you mean by related. Did the designers of Dorrie and Plessie follow guidelines similar to those used to design Yoshi and named the characters with the 「ッシー」 suffix accordingly? Likely yes. Does this mean that they are all related species? Definitely not! Currently Yoshi is not considered a dinosaur, with the bio of Nintendo co., Ltd. from last year noting how the saddle is indeed a shell and suggesting that the possible candidates to identify Yoshi's species are dinosaurs and turtles. This year's interview about the origin of Yoshi finally clarified that indeed Yoshi had a shell on the back and was intended to be related to turtles from the start. Plessie on the other hand is officially considered a dinosaur. To remind you how similar development guidelines can often create characters which are then completely unrelated from a species point of view, I'd like to remind you how Madame Broode and the Broodals were almost surely based on Bowser and the Koopalings, yet they are completely unrelated from a species point of view, since the formers are rabbits, the latters turtles.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:05, 6 November 2017 (EST)

This comes from what, Nintendo of Europe or something? I'm talking something I'm pretty sure Miyamoto said (it was him or one of the other two). I've come to sort of distrust things that NoE have said, due to the fact that they so heavily contradict things that have been previously said. If Yoshi's not a Dinosaur, why is he the star inhabitant of Dinosaur Land? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:30, 6 November 2017 (EST)

The one who said that Yoshi is related to turtles is none other than Takashi Tezuka, the director of Super Mario World and character designer as well (he himself made some sketches of Yoshi's preliminary design, correcting Shigefumi Hino's first sketch of Yoshi which was lizard-like). And this is not an European thing, it's on the Japanese site as well, with the very same text. Anyway, if you read the original Japanese manual of Super Mario World, you'll see that Yoshi was actually introduced as a 「ドラゴン」, a dragon (which is also why the Dragon Coins were named like that!), Template:Media link. Nonetheless, on Template:Media link Yoshi was indeed stated to be a 「恐竜」, a dinosaur, as well. Regarding him being a turtle, well, this is actually pretty old, as Template:Media link, and in the Super Mario History Booklet released in 2010 Template:Media link, the only difference is that since last year Yoshi being a turtle started to appear in official bios and nowadays Tezuka speaks more openly, stating that Yoshi is indeed intended to be a turtle.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)

OK. He's the one that said he was originally intended to be a turtle, now I remember But then he said that "The saddle was supposed to be his shell." This seems to inticatie that that hideous skinny preliminary Yoshi that can be seen with some supplemental material with the SNES Classic was the "turtle" design. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST)

That's what he stated in 2010, look at what he states now:I kind of forced the design through, saying, “It’s related to turtles.”, Hisashi Nogami also sated that the saddle on his back is A shell. Even after I joined the company, Tezuka kept insisting that it was a shell., finally the interviewer, Akinori Sao, stated And that’s how Super Mario World, which debuted Yoshi as kin to turtles, became the top-selling title worldwide for Super NES.. Ultimately, little has changed from what he already stated in 2010, the little difference is nonetheless there: before it was a thing of the past, now Yoshi is stated to have been designed as related to turtles and to actually have a shell on his back, which perfectly reflects what Yoshi's Japanese bio from yesteryear suggested when it stated Even though there's a shell on his back, we actually don't know whether Yoshi's a dinosaur or a turtle!.--

Mister Wu (talk) 19:32, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Shelled dinosaurs exist. But they're more Bowser-like. And as ancient reptiles, they are, indeed, related to turtles. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:38, 6 November 2017 (EST)

On a related note, up until the most recent Nintendo 3DS / Wii U games, the Super Smash Bros. series has consistently called Yoshi a dinosaur. Maybe Tezuka's position explains the sudden stop. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:42, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I'd stll like an explanation behind Dinosaur Land. If Yoshi is a turtle dragon and Rex is a dragon, the only dinosaurs left are Dino Rhino and Dino Torch, found solely on Chocolate Island, and Reznor, which is a 3-time miniboss. Oh yeah, and that ghost Eerie. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:46, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I think that, conceptually, Yoshi is not a dinosaur, but it's been an established factoid for over twenty years that it's really silly to backpedal on it now. Stranger things have happened, though. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:55, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Well, the official Japanese guide of Super Mario World stated that he was a dinosaur as well, not to say that the Japanese bio of last year still mentioned the word dinosaur. It's a term that also appeared in Japan, although there he was mainly referred to as a dragon. To go more in the detail about the relationship between Yoshi and Dinosaur Land, though, Tezuka actually also talked about this in this year's interview: When we started making Super Mario World, we were working with the concept of a dinosaur land, so I had Hino do art for a kind of reptile.. On Super Smash Bros., the dates indeed match, as Super Smash Bros. Brawl was released in 2008, before the 2010 reveal that Yoshi was intended to be a turtle and the subsequent ongoing process that is apparently more and more leading to Yoshi being considered a turtle. But if you want to look how important was stating that Yoshi's saddle is a shell in starting this process, look no further than the Mario & Sonic series: after Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (the first) Yoshi was no longer stated to be a dinosaur, and indeed it was actually the DS version of Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games that revealed in 2009 that Yoshi's saddle is actually a shell.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Aaaaaaaanyways, if none of Yoshi, Bahamutt, Dorrie, and Plessie are dinosaurs, but all are reptiles, and all but the first were in some manner inspired by the first and theme-named in the original language, can they not all be considered related then? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:06, 6 November 2017 (EST)

I don't see why not, regardless of any apparent current story shenanigans. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:15, 6 November 2017 (EST)

You can consider Bahamutt, Dorrie and Plessie related, as they all seem to follow similar design guidelines, as even the Japanese names imply, but I think you should add somewhere (maybe the main pages of those three?) why they are considered related, if the reason is not already stated, so there's no confusion.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2017 (EST)

bahamutt is like the only Yoshi look-alike. IMO plessie and dorrie look NOTHING like Yoshi New Super Luigi

The Japanese names and head-shape on both of the others are Yoshi-like. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:24, 6 November 2017 (EST)

Merge all or certain color Yoshis into Yoshi (species)

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome This proposal will hopefully set out to do what the above tried. As noted, these are all aesthetic differences for the most part. The only time most of these colors affected platform gameplay was in Yoshi's Story, where it decided their favorite fruit. This is not notable enough to have a series of separate articles over something that can simply be given a quick mention in one article. The other time they affected platform gameplay was in Super Mario World, where Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi had a different ability depending on the Koopa shell they had in their mouth, but again, this something that is nonexistent in later appearances. Then there is the Green Yoshi article, which just has overlap with the character and species. The proposal has two options: one to include all Yoshi colors in the species article, and one to keep the Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi articles.

Proposer: LinkTheLefty (talk)
Deadline: March 24, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Merge all colors

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per now and then.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per proposal.
3. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
4. Baby Luigi (talk) It's absolutely necessary to mention the spin-off games, specifically Mario Super Sluggers and Mario Tennis open where they have different stats too, and their different stats aren't any less significant than the one in Super Mario World. Aside from that, none of these differences are major enough to warrant their own article. We don't split off the colored Shy Guys in Mario Super Sluggers even though they have different stats. Same with Kritters, Piantas, Nokis, etc. and all of the Mario Baseball characters even have an individual role in the storyline. Red Koopas and Green Koopas have as much stat distinctions from each other in spinoffs and platformers as well and those aren't split. We could go on, but Yoshis deserve no exceptions and should get merged.
5. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per Baby Luigi.
6. GrainedCargo192 (talk) Per all.
7. TheFlameChomp (talk) Even with stat differences and gameplay differences in Super Mario World, it would be consistent with how we handle other color variants on the wiki to merge them. Per Baby Luigi.
8. Bazooka Mario (talk) I have been repeatedly calling these colored Yoshi pages into question and was going to bring up discussion about their legitimacy, and I still don't think minute differences justify separate pages. All relevant art goes into an appropriately organized gallery and we'll be good especially when the recolors these days just frequently reuse art.
9. MarioManiac1981 (talk) Some of the Yoshi articles are rather short (like Black Yoshi, White Yoshi, and Brown Yoshi), while many other appearances are simply cosmetic differences. If red and green Koopa Troopas aren't worthy of warranting separate articles, then why should these dinos receive special treatment? Per all.
10. bwburke94 (talk) Per all above.
11. Doomhiker (talk) Per all.
12. Tails777 (talk) While I do enjoy each color having its own article, I do see all the sense in merging and it is the better course of action.

Merge all except three Super Mario World colors

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) It should be that or nothing.

#Waluigi Time (talk) At the very least, those three do have some gameplay differences. #Sdman213 (talk) per Waluigi.

Leave alone

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) Disagree. I said that i didn't want the rest to be merged. Every Yoshi deserves its own aricle!
2. Alternis (talk) For FanOfYoshi

Comments

Note that I was initially going to hold off on this proposal until the release of Super Mario Maker 2 given a red Yoshi appears in the trailer; however, since I got support here, I'm going ahead. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:32, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

FanOfYoshi: You might think every Yoshi "deserves its own aricle", but that's inconsistent with how we usually do things as we generally discourage species color variants. The Toad colors have only gotten their own articles due to having a few notable appearances like the Toad Brigade, not for the sake of being a different color. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:46, 11 March 2019 (EDT)

It is when it is enemies. Look at this proposal. -- FanOfYoshi 06:47, 11 March 2019 (EDT)

That's why I specifically brought up the Toad colors. Look carefully and you'll find that unlike the Yoshi colors, they are not about general appearances of each color. This is because that is information that can easily exist in the species article. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:59, 11 March 2019 (EDT)

I don't even agree with myself in that proposal anymore lmao Ray Trace^(T|C) 18:48, March 11, 2019 (EDT)

I again direct you to ambiguous cases (particularly with early inconsistent colors brought about by palette limitations (such as gray and green in SMB1 and SMB2) and just being unable to see the damn Troopa's carapace occasionally), not to mention how Shy Guy colors were changed between SMB2 and its remake, then made utterly meaningless-but-plentiful in the Yoshi games. Sorry, misinterpreted your vague statement here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:29, March 11, 2019 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: but the other colored yoshis do have gameplay differences too....? yoshis have different classifications in mario tennis open, different stats in mario super sluggers, and have different fruit preferences in yoshi's story. how is super mario world's stat distinctions any more significant than being a power-based yoshi or a tricky-based yoshi in the mario tennis games? people who vote the second option is going to result in a major inconsistency that we should strive to avoid. Ray Trace^(T|C) 18:47, March 11, 2019 (EDT)

I see your point when you put it that way. I didn't even take into account the stat differences in sports games, but felt the SMW abilities were important enough for a possible split. But now that I think about it, having an entire Yoshi color with its own page because it had a special ability in one game is silly and inconsistent. It's also basically in the same boat as the Birdo colors from SMB2 and their special abilities, which we don't split. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:35, March 11, 2019 (EDT)

Question: After this, can we move on to trying to merge the generic shell colors? If the clearly-distinct banana and banana peel are consistently kept merged, there's no reason for these far more similar subjects to be split instead. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 08:08, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

You can. -- FanOfYoshi 08:13, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

What colored shells are you thinking about? Ray Trace^(T|C) 00:09, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Green, red, blue, and yellow. I'd leave out black (as it's never appeared being worn by a Troopa and is very specific to the MKAGP series) and probably gold (as it has especially distinct properties when it appears). I would also leave out the wearable powerup version of the Blue Shell, and potentially split the Strikers version to its own article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:13, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Personally, I'd leave the attribute-related stuff alone and just merge their generic instances. So that means leave the Super Mario World, the Mario Kart, the Mario Strikers, the Mario Baseball, the Mario Tennis, the power-up stuff alone and keep generic instances of the name in one paragraph in the opening of their respective articles while we merge the generic instances to the Koopa Shell article. I strongly doubt the koopa shells in the titles where they are generic outside of the blue ones even have official names like "Red Shell" to begin with. Ray Trace^(T|C) 00:24, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Regarding the above

So apparently, there was an option to leave out the Super Mario World Yoshis due to being sufficiently unique. I'd rather have waited until Super Mario Maker 2, something new comes if we should have left the four Super Mario World colors. That says, there should be new information popping up. -- FanOfYoshi 08:47, March 27, 2019 (EDT)

They're not any more unique than other colored Yoshis being in different type categories and QR codes in Mario Tennis Open. Ray Trace^(T|C) 18:38, March 28, 2019 (EDT)

Turtle

Yoshi is a turtle. https://nintendoeverything.com/yoshis-crafted-world-devs-on-the-art-style-kindergarten-inspiration-flip-side-gimmick-more Yoshiturtle (talk) 00:02, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

Well, Yoshis were originally meant to be a type of Koopa. 00:22, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

Yoshi's species specification has been extremely variable over the years, this is hardly groundbreaking news. The 25th anniversary booklet interview said that the saddle was "originally meant to be" a shell because he was "going to be a type of Koopa," indicating he's not intended to be one by the final product. That beak-mouthed early-tile screenshot appearance likely is related to that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:55, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

To elaborate more on the subject (you can read a more detailed resumé here), the dragon and dinosaur bits used to define Yoshi were indeed in official material beside that signature in Super Mario World. Dragon was used in the manual of Super Mario World (and in the manual and Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Advance 2, too!), while dinosaur was used in the Nintendo Official Guidebook. I wouldn't be surprised if Tezuka always wanted Yoshi to be a turtle, though. If at the beginning there was rather the consensus on Yoshi being a dragon or a dinosaur (after all, Super Mario World is set in Dinosaur Land), he may have been introduced as that because of this reason. Then, as the franchise developed and the Turtle Tribe started having a great veariety of species in it, they decided that the idea of Yoshi being a member of it (that's what the Japanese 25th Anniversary booklet says, from what I could find) made sense.--Mister Wu (talk) 07:25, May 2, 2019 (EDT)

Split the Super Mario-Kun ones from this article?

Should we split the Super Mario-Kun ones for being more unique than the normal ones? -- FanOfYoshi 01:45, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

If they are individual characters like Boshi, then yes. B700465189a9 (talk) 02:21, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

They are specifically from the Team Chibi Yoshis -- FanOfYoshi 09:28, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

Since the group already has an article, it must be seen if something worthwhile can be added in the individual pages, or if everything about them can just be written in the main page.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:03, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

But they're all separate characters. -- FanOfYoshi 12:15, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

And most of us probably know less about them than the Fearsome 5. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:20, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

It's not about them not being separate characters, since they clearly are, it's just about having enough material for each of them so we don't end with six stubs or six articles that basically say the same as the team page. If you have both Super Mario-Kun volumes and manage to do so, you can go on and create the pages, but if we don't have enough material, covering them in that page for the team would be a better way to go.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:38, July 13, 2019 (EDT)

I'm not very fluent in Japanese, there are a few words that i understand (besides loanwords), and i can also read kanas, and i don't own them either. -- FanOfYoshi 00:50, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Strongly opposed, using the Fearsome 5 as precedent. The group article is enough. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:49, August 14, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed, I don't see why every single minor member of an even more minor group has to have their own page. TheDarkStar 12:52, August 14, 2019 (EDT)

Actually, no, it's not extraneous, unlike the Fearsome 5, they're more unique, and have the main article template. -- FanOfYoshi 06:00, August 15, 2019 (EDT)

Really, splitting everything under the sun isn't a good idea in the first place, in my opinion. These are not notable enough for their own articles, much like the Nokis. TheDarkStar 08:58, August 15, 2019 (EDT)

The question is always the same: do we have more material than what is already written? Because making a page to say what can be said in a paragraph of the page about the team as a whole doesn't help the readers, it only makes getting information about them more complicated. The templates can be safely removed if we don't need the individual pages.--Mister Wu (talk) 14:45, August 15, 2019 (EDT)

I said this before, while we don't have the material to make full pages now, we shouldn't not in the future because we didn't have them in the past: so while the pages should not be made now once we get their material we should decide whether or not they need pages, which they may. We really can't say if they are not notable enough if we don't have full translations of the magna, because they actually may be notable, and saying that they are not now is speculation. Doomhiker (talk) 15:15, August 15, 2019 (EDT)

Full name

When I looked at a YouTube video, it's full name is T. Yoshisaur Munchakoopas. Do you these other reliable sources would be good?:

http://www.thekohlrabi.com/t-t-yoshisaur-munchakoopas/

https://www.polygon.com/2014/8/5/5972989/yoshis-real-name-revealed-super-mario-world

Thanks. Benjaminkirsc (talk) 09:17, June 30, 2020 (EDT)

It is currently trivia in the character article since the internal reference it came from was leaked and was never used elsewhere. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:45, June 30, 2020 (EDT)

Gender

Should the Yoshis be considered as a male-only species seeing how there are apparently no female Yoshis as far as we know? Almost every species in this series seems to have more than one gender while the Yoshis are seen to be mostly using male pronouns.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.193.95.185 (talk).

One of the closest cases we've ever had to a female Yoshi was in one of those SNES era guides that also featured flying Rexes - not exactly the most on-model book. In general, while in the GCN era Yoshis were seen as masculine with Birdos being their "feminine" counterparts, nowadays it's mostly the Super Smash Bros. games that reiterate Yoshis being male. Appearance-wise, it's has been a long time since we last saw a Yoshi with a different from standard appearance - in the recent Yoshi platform games it's the Yoshis as a whole who look different, not just a single one - so I guess we just stick with this "all Yoshis are male" convention. Biologically they are all genderless so it's not something to read too much into it, as not even Nintendo stresses the masculinity of the Yoshis any more in the non-Super Smash Bros. Mario games.--Mister Wu (talk) 07:17, April 11, 2021 (EDT)

It's pretty much safe to say that yoshi is a male-only species with Birdo being its female.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 108.93.144.117 (talk).

Outside of the character Yoshi (who is usually referred to as male), the Yoshi species are genderless as Mister Wu had said.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.12.65.0 (talk).

Each colored Yoshi has its own name?

I just stumbled across this article stating that the various colored Yoshis from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island are actually named in official German Club Nintendo material. Is this worth mentioning, possibly in the section relating to the colors of Yoshis or even on that game's article under characters? HappyToad ^{(TALK • EDITS)} 01:22, October 13, 2021 (EDT)

They were exclusively used in German material, and they were named after the Nintendo of Europe employees. Tracking down whether the current colored Yoshis are the same ones of back then and further splitting hairs (and pages) when they aren't is a bit excessive, especially now that Nintendo in Japan has pretty much confirmed that they have no problem in calling even the differently colored ones just Yoshi, if it's simpler for them (and they started doing so with Yoshi (Kangaroo)). It's for sure a very fun piece of trivia, I guess you can add it in the Trivia section.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:43, October 13, 2021 (EDT)

Thanks, even though I'd prefer not to make a Trivia section if possible, I think you're probably right about it being too trivial to embed into the article, so I'll just make it and put the info there. HappyToad ^{(TALK • EDITS)} 17:06, October 13, 2021 (EDT)

Changing the Main Page Artwork

Hello, i wonder if i can change the main page artwork from the Yoshi's New Island one to the Yoshi's Crafted World one? I'm asking it here since i don't want to edit the main page artwork without permission, thanks! Shadic 34 (talk) 15:02, January 20, 2022 (EST)

I've done it for now. WildWario (talk) 21:35, January 20, 2022 (EST)

I feel like using the Yoshi's Crafted World artwork could violate our policy of avoiding using artwork that is "specialized" for a certain game in infoboxes, since it depicts the Yoshis having a felt-like appearance to fit the game's "crafts" theme.--TheFlameChomp (talk) 21:47, January 20, 2022 (EST)

I understand that, so should I change it back to the Yoshi's New Island one? WildWario (talk) 21:54, January 20, 2022 (EST)

It should be changed back for now, but it might make sense to also discuss whether or not a more general image exists, as even that one might be considered specialized due to it depicting Baby Mario. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 22:04, January 20, 2022 (EST)

I do think Crafted World Yoshis are too derivative to be the best infobox picture. As for the current one, it's not 100% ideal, but Baby Mario does have a fairly strong presence in the Yoshi's Island games, so I don't think it's a big deal that he's there. He's not such a dominating presence compared to this example of group art where adult Mario does appear too prevalent. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 22:10, January 20, 2022 (EST)

Discussing Re-splitting Yoshi Colors

I initially started a similar discussion on Mario Kart Tour's talk page, but I feel that game's handle on alternates is a topic that needs further time in the oven. Kinda continuing from my original proposal idea, I feel the Yoshi species should be re-split back into their original color based articles. A main reason being that many games that feature colored Yoshies feature them with several differences from Yoshi himself, strong examples being Mario Tennis Open and Mario Kart Tour while some lesser examples include Yoshi Story and Mario Super Sluggers. When compared to other species with colored members, such as Toads, Shy Guys and Birdos, I feel Yoshies have consistently had appearances with various differences between colors. Sure, the Yoshi series mainly features them as mere pallet swaps, same can be said when the colored Yoshies act as alternate skins for Yoshi himself (Mario Hoops 3-on-3, Mario Sports Mix, Mario Kart 8 etc), I still think there is enough individual information for most of the prominent colors. I wouldn't compare this to something like Red Spike Tops, since while I did oppose the merge, I can understand why since they have no differing statistics between Spike Tops. But many colored Yoshies have varying differences: different classification types in Mario Tennis Open, different special items and even rarities in Mario Kart Tour, different favorite fruits and Shy Guy preferences in Yoshi Story, I feel there's still enough information on each color that could suffice for their own articles, they just need to be worked on. But I want to discuss it before I try making a proposal about it, because I know there was the above proposal for merging them (one that I kinda regret agreeing with). Tails777 Talk to me!21:47, February 14, 2022 (EST)

Definitely. Also, another downside of the merge is that if anyone wants to find out which games specific Yoshi colors appeared in... well, good luck with that. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 21:50, February 14, 2022 (EST)

I'd be fine with a split for the reasons you gave. Somethingone (talk) 22:31, February 14, 2022 (EST)

Problem is there's some subjectivity regarding which colors are the same; for instance, certain "white" Yoshis look closer to "light blue" Yoshis to some people, and then there's the brown vs orange deal and the occasional appearance in a limited-palette game like one of the G&WG games where it's not really a solid indicator of the "intended" color anyway. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:01, February 15, 2022 (EST)

That's indeed an issue: nowadays there is more consistency around the 10 main Yoshi colors (red, orange, yellow, green, light blue, blue, purple, pink, white and black), but in the past there wasn't much consistency, the main issue clearly being that of brown Yoshi who even appeared orange in official artwork. To this, we can add how color attribution itself can have some unexpected pitfalls, with Yoshi (kangaroo) being a clear example. I think the first thing we'll need to check is how many pitfalls in the color attribution we have, if we can have most of the pages devoid of arbitrary, debatable or contradictory attributions, I guess we can consider a split.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:25, February 15, 2022 (EST)

@Doc con Schmeltwick: That is a good point, though in the case of White Yoshies occasionally looking Light Blue to some people, we need to consider what the game is viewing it as, less what other people see it as. I know many people see colors differently, especially if one could be color blind, but if a game specifically names a White Yoshi that kinda looks like a light-blue shade as "White Yoshi", then that's what we should treat it as. I think a good example is the Yoshi level for Artist on the Court, where the White Yoshi does have a more light-blueish appearance, but it's clearly intended to be a White Yoshi, since a Light Blue Yoshi is also present on the same image. But I will agree that Brown Yoshi does create some uncertainties, especially with Game & Watch Gallery 3 featuring a Yoshi that looks to be orange, but nothing other than it's base looks seems to really confirm what color it's supposed to be.

@Mister Wu: I don't think Yoshi (Kangaroo) is much of an issue, as while he is yellow in color, there are signs that indicate that he's not a Yellow Yoshi, just normal Yoshi colored yellow, which I feel is already explained perfectly fine on the main Yoshi article. Something like that could also be mentioned on a Yellow Yoshi article, maybe in a Trivia section or the Mario Kart Tour section if Yellow Yoshi inevitably gets into the game. Concerning Brown Yoshi's artwork comparisons, I feel we should go with what is shown in-game; yes, Brown Yoshi looks to be more orange in the group artwork for the GBA port of Yoshi's Island, but the in-game sprite shows it to be Brown as a whole. Additionally, Brown Yoshi does have artwork that clearly shows it to be brown. Tails777 Talk to me!13:30, February 15, 2022 (EST)

Could someone please explain what would be gained by splitting them, and why that wouldn't apply to stuff like "Toads, Shy Guys and Birdos" (especially Shy Guys)? Blinker (talk) 18:12, February 15, 2022 (EST)

There's still plenty of information that could be included in each individual article, a good example that Waluigi Time gave was which games each individual colors appear in. On top of that, I feel it would be a more organized way of separating that information, especially with games like Super Mario World, Yoshi Story and Mario Kart Tour. I wouldn't mind extending this to topics such as Shy Guys, Toads and Birdos, with Shy Guys potentially having the best reasons to follow in suit to splitting Yoshies, but the reason why Yoshies are a better start is because of their consistent differences across multiple titles. Even beyond the simple stat changes most colored characters saw in the Mario Baseball series, Yoshies have a few differences in Yoshi Story, Mario Kart Tour and Mario Tennis Open. Shy Guys and Birdos do have colored alternates in Tour as well, but Birdo complicates things by having those colored alts being named "Birdo (Color)" rather than how Yoshies and Shy Guys do it (Being "Color" Yoshi/Shy Guy). Toads are also in the same boat because on more occasions are not, they don't have much differing them when colored Toads are present, with their most common role being simple townspeople and in Mario Kart Tour, standard colored Toads aren't yet included, instead being Pit Crew Toads (though given their naming, I feel they could possibly follow the same path as the others). And while Mario Kart Tour's various karts and gliders are a different topic, a big reason I bring all this up is because I felt like was inconsistent to allow pallet swapped karts to have their own articles, despite being on one game and featuring the same differences as colored Yoshies, despite those Yoshies having even more differences across multiple games and not having their own articles. Tails777 Talk to me!18:44, February 15, 2022 (EST)

I mentioned Yoshi (Kangaroo) for a very specific reason: if there is no agreement that a yellow-colored Yoshi with the Yellow Yoshi emblem and the original shoes, worn by all the Yoshi colors in Super Mario World, is a yellow Yoshi, mainly because of a name that was clarified being a species identifier used also for colored variants, then splitting the Yoshi colors without well defined criteria is a recipe for a disaster. The inconsistencies in the appearance of the colored Yoshis are abundant and are way more ambiguous. If in the newly created pages you want to cover only the cases in which the color is explicitly stated I'm not against this idea, if you want to go beyond those I'm not confident we'll be able to avoid plenty of speculation and conflicting edits.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:57, February 15, 2022 (EST)

Honestly, that's fine, I'm not against keeping it to times where it's explicitly stated to be that color. If anything, that would make things easier, would it not? I do think it might be best to try and create an idea for what the articles could look like before making any sort of decision, because the idea of splitting palette swaps still has some decent arguments against it. But the main thing I look at are appearances where being a different color actually had a noticeable difference in gameplay. I also did read your bit on Yoshi's talk page and yeah, that really does complicate things. If that's the case, I'm not against keeping colored Yoshi articles to times they are explicitly stated to be that color. Tails777 Talk to me!22:11, February 15, 2022 (EST)

Maybe you could try sandboxing? With a rough draft of how the pages could look we can better see how the pages would turn out. Maybe start with the original three color variants - blue, yellow and red, who had gameplay implications since the very beginning. The first one could be Red Yoshi, who is also a driver in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX.--Mister Wu (talk) 03:25, February 16, 2022 (EST)

I've gotten started on that. It'll be a work of progress, but I think I've got a good start on it. Tails777 Talk to me!12:34, February 16, 2022 (EST)

Personally, I still feel those gameplay differences aren't major enough to constitute a split, since they practically apply to all color variations of the characters, namely Toad, Shy Guy, etc, and I don't think it's more "consistently" manner either. The deal with the color Yoshis are is that they simply had more appearances than the other colored species, and even something such as the Blue Toads in Super Mario Run have a distinct gameplay feature to them, even if it is something as minor as "Blue Yoshis are favorable with Blue Toads" (this doesn't get into the Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon Toads, who all have unique fears about them which is parallel to the favorite fruit Yoshi stuff from Yoshi's Story). I even call into question the Blue and Yellow Toad character articles from New Super Mario Bros. Wii since as far as gameplay is concerned, they're little more than playable character skins for a "Toad" character and they're as generically named as the other Yoshis (it doesn't help both their character articles are padded with "personality" sections but I digress). In addition, enemies such as the colored Koopa Troopas, Snifits, Cheep Cheeps also technically exhibit different behaviors in their platforming titles which are the same quality as small stat changes in the Mario spin-off titles, relevant to the context of the game they appear, and I don't see anyone advocating for their splits. Ray Trace^(T|C) 17:03, February 16, 2022 (EST)

@Ray Trace: If the looks of separate articles feel like they're underwhelming or unnecessary, then what I may do is put more effort into sprucing up this article to include more information on potential differences between colors. I am in the middle of working on a draft for Red Yoshi and I will agree, many of the sections feel small. If the final draft still gives the feeling that a split is unnecessary, then plan be is to work hard on this article instead. Tails777 Talk to me!17:23, February 16, 2022 (EST)

Per Ray Trace on this one. I don't think I was around back when these were seperate articles so I wouldn't know how they were handled, but I think having it all on this page is better for management and organisation. Nightwicked Bowser 19:26, February 16, 2022 (EST)

I understand that and honestly, I might be close to the point where I wouldn't argue against sprucing this article up instead. But I still want to finish my draft and see if it could pass for a reasonable article. Part of me thinks that keeping information for all these colors in one article could still feel messy or otherwise bloated with so much information, but that's also something I won't know until I try to fit it all in there. I also agree with Mister Wu in creating the colored articles and using them to show information on games that specifically acknowledge each colored Yoshi individually rather than treating them as a collective species, like most games do for Toads. Otherwise, I can see the point of keeping them merged, even if I still don't fully agree with it. Tails777 Talk to me!20:16, February 16, 2022 (EST)

Potential to merge to Yoshi

I know I'm liable to catch a lot of flak for this, but following the successful merges of Birdo and Boom Boom, I think it's time to examine whether this has any business being its own article. A grand majority of the time, "Yoshi" treated as someone's name is assigned arbitrarily to any nonspecific member regardless of things like color; this can be seen at least as far back as the Yoshi's Story manual and occurs even more often today (ie with Kangaroo Yoshi); another good example is with Super Mario Sunshine ("Yoshi's back, so saddle up!"), where he changes color and dissolves in water. Furthermore, it has been explicitly stated that "Yoshi" is not a singular individual, with it instead referring to any given one unless stated otherwise. That's not even getting into the fact that in the Yoshi franchise itself, the green-colored one rarely has any more prominence than any of the other colors, leaving plenty of redundancy between the pages. Also let's not forget how Mario Kart 8 handles his color alts the same way as Shy Guys. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo has no interest in distinguishing these subjects (and in fact, seems to encourage them to be synonymous), so we really should reflect that. The only real example of a game I can think of having a specific "main" Yoshi alongside "minor" Yoshis is Super Mario RPG, where all have such a minor role anyways a single page would also still probably be simpler. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:09, April 14, 2022 (EDT)

Funny, I was actually just thinking about this myself. Same can really be said about Toad, since both are just kinda an umbrella term for the overall species. Basically "All Yoshis/Toads are named Yoshi/Toad". But I'm still kinda on the fence about it, since I don't really agree with the merging of Birdo/Birdo's species. So I'm not entirely sure. Tails777 Talk to me!23:45, April 14, 2022 (EDT)

No, Yoshi is clearly also a species. What is the Yoshi Stampede is the SSB Melee intro (and SSBU Final Smash) then? I actually typed up a lead section on Nintendo Wiki (rest needs to be rewritten still) that tries to address this, specifically "Yoshi is a notable and distinguished member of the species of the same name, but does not necessarily represent the same character, similar to Toad and his species." I think it's not a good idea to merge. Results May Vary (talk) 00:16, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

I'm not saying there's not a species, I'm saying there's not a distinction. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:21, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Ohhh good point. Perhaps seeing as Yoshi and/or its species appear in so many titles, it would be hard to make out when it's about the species and when it's about the character. Results May Vary (talk) 00:30, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

As I mentioned, "Yoshi" is already not a specific character, and has been used -as a name- in reference to ones of different colors in the same game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:32, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

The character "Yoshi" is often referred to as the green Yoshi, and games like Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario World, Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle and even Paper Mario: Color Splash make this clear enough. This isn't quite on the same scale as Boom Boom and Birdo. Nightwicked Bowser 06:47, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Actually, I have no idea why Paper Mario: Color Splash is mentioned in this article. It's a possible appearance at best. That aside, this was brought up a few times on the other talk page. I got a few amusing remarks regarding Super Mario World. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:55, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

I think I would ultimately oppose this idea. While Nintendo does say "All Yoshies are named Yoshi", that doesn't necessarily mean we should merge them, that's just saying all Yoshies have the same name and that's not exactly treating them as the same. That would be like saying all Matts on the planet are the same. They also, despite that, still do seem to individualize Yoshi himself in various bios, using more specific pronouns instead of just referring to him as "they/them". And while the Yoshi name could just interchange with all Yoshies, there are only really three times where Yoshi himself has been interchanged with the other colors, being Super Mario Sunshine, Mario Power Tennis and Mario Kart Tour, compared to the numerous other times Yoshi can and has appeared alongside other Yoshies. Additionally, there are still several appearances the Yoshi species has as NPCs that don't include the specific Yoshi, including Paper Mario, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door and pretty much the entire Mario & Luigi series. As for Mario Kart 8, well yes all those colors are palette swaps for Yoshi, they still not just referred to as "Yoshi", they're still referred to as "Red Yoshi", "Blue Yoshi" etc. Had they all just shared the same, generic name, that'd be different, but they don't and still have individual names. In the end, I think there's enough of a fine line between the Yoshi individual and the multitude of other Yoshies for them to remain split. Tails777 Talk to me!08:59, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

How do we tell the Yoshi from other Yoshis named "Yoshi" though? Several sections, like the Color Splash one, already just flat-out assume that any singular green Yoshi is the Yoshi regardless. Yoshi's profiles individualize him? So do Boom Boom's, and that didn't stop us from merging him. 13:26, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

A grand majority of his bios start with something along the lines of "He's been carrying Mario on his back for years" or that "he's Mario's trusty adventuring partner", which is not something you can say about a character who swaps out with any random member of his species. And I still stand by the individualization made by even modern bios (such as Yoshi's Crafted World specifically stating there's "Yoshi" and there's "all the other Yoshis" and Mario Party 10 specifically stating that Yoshi has attended "every party to date", which proves it's the same Yoshi), which I think is more than enough. So whereas Boom Boom's question of being an individual started with New Super Mario Bros. U, Yoshi still has 20 years of consistent proof that he's an individual in his species. Just because things are similar, we don't always need to conclude that they should just be merged, otherwise we may as well just merge every Koopa Troopa together. Tails777 Talk to me!

Then how is Yoshi "back" in Sunshine when for all intents and purposes that can't be the same Yoshi? Your proof is anything but consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:12, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

In addition to the above, the whole "we might as well merge every Koopa Troopa" argument is pure apples-to-oranges mush; you're comparing clear enemy variants to ambiguous individualism between character and species. You might as well use the Birdo merge as an argument for doing that too. 15:25, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

What's the chronology of Sunshine stating Yoshi is "back" and the "Yoshis/enemies are goop" explanation, though? I was under the impression that the goop clarification was made much later, which wouldn't mean that the Sunshine Yoshi outright can't be the Yoshi, just that he was originally intended to be, and it was retconned later. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:50, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

The color change and dissolving in water is already incompatible. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:47, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

From a canon standpoint, possibly, but we don't make continuity judgments, we just work with what we're given. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 17:15, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

No, I remember it ("it" being the Sunshine manual IIRC) saying that it's specifically the Yoshis on Isle Delfino that hate water. 17:28, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

I have the SMS manual so I quickly went and checked, you're right! The manual does specify the Yoshis on Isle Delfino. Somethingone (talk) 18:21, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Okay, so Super Mario Sunshine is one example of inconsistency between Yoshi himself and his species. That's one example holding up against multiple other examples drawing a fine line separating them. And I still stand by my point: even if Nintendo stated that "All Yoshis are named Yoshi", there are still a decent amount of modern bios that still draw that same fine line showcasing Yoshi as his own individual. And from my standpoint, the one time Nintendo was inconsistent doesn't hold enough weight here, especially since their inconsistent statement is something beyond our control. As per Waluigi Time, we can only work with what we have and we still have a lot more that properly suggests Yoshi is still an individual. Tails777 Talk to me!22:36, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

I already pointed out the Yoshi's Story manual and "Yoshi (kangaroo)" also being examples of my point. Story also murks things up by having hatchling Yoshis who have never even seen Mario be called "Mario's pet" by Baby Bowser, and his role in that game required knowing there's more than one anyway. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:08, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

I've already stated Mario Kart Tour to be one of the three times Yoshi has been interchanged with other colors and I overall feel it's still supposed to be Yoshi himself, as both his Kangaroo and Gold Shell alternates still follow the same naming rule every other alternate follows, further suggesting that, while yellow, it's still the Yoshi individual and not a standard Yellow Yoshi named Yoshi, which I feel can be further proven if a Yellow Yoshi appears as a separate racer in the future (as it's not Yellow Yoshi (Kangaroo), it's still Yoshi (Kangaroo)). Overall I'm going to have to respectfully agree to disagree. From my point of view, there is still way more evidence that suggests Yoshi to be an individual over times he's been throw in with the overall Yoshi species. As for Yoshi Story, well we don't even have such section on Yoshi's article and it's more shown that they are Baby Yoshis over Yoshi himself, though I will agree that Baby Bowser calling them "Mario's Pet" does showcase a second (or I guess first, since YS came before SMS) inconsistency with Yoshi vs. his species. Regardless, I still see more evidence supporting supporting the individuality and I'm going to choose to stick to that. Tails777 Talk to me!23:42, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Light Purple Yoshi and Gray Yoshi

The recent game in the Mario Strikers series has two new Yoshi colors, Mind if anyone add them? --64.33.135.109 14:23, June 11, 2022 (EDT)

Isn't Gray Yoshi just white? Yoshis on the two purple teams look blue. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 14:39, June 11, 2022 (EDT)

It appears so in both cases, with Yoshi also having his usual green color for the chartreuse team. --Zootalo (talk) 16:11, June 11, 2022 (EDT)

Merging this with Yoshi

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcomeWhen Nintendo includes Yoshi in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colors, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially, I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Yoshi is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario World information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Yoshis are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Yoshi is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article. Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Birdo, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game.

Proposer: Teh Other (talk)
Deadline: October 14, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Teh Other (talk) Per proposal
2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - (Bit too early for this, son) Per everything I said above, it's abundantly clear Nintendo doesn't see any distinction and never really has. It is our role to reflect that, not fanwank together a pick-and-choose "biography" of incompatible appearances. And to quote myself below: in many sources, such as the Yoshi's Story manual and Super Mario Sunshine manual, every Yoshi is simply called "Yoshi." Not "a Yoshi" or "the Yoshi," just "Yoshi," or "Yoshis" in plural. And furthermore, both Story and Sunshine are clearly different from the so-called "main" Yoshi in their respective predecessors, with the former just hatching and the latter having the water weakness stated to be a Delfino-only thing. So, if every Yoshi is "Yoshi," who is the character and how is he distinct? From the physically, functionally, and nomenclaturally identical others?

Oppose

1. Tails777 (talk) Strong oppose, per my reasons above and below.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Tails777.
3. Swallow (talk) There is a lot to say about the character throughout games that wouldn't be fitting on the species page, and it is often clear when it's supposed to be the character Yoshi.
4. Dwhitney (talk) Per all.
5. Arend (talk) Per all; there are still many appearances that distinct Yoshi as its own character (he even has his own house, and I think the appearances of his house indicates that the games it's featured in also feature THE Yoshi as well). If we go through with this, we might as well do the same with ALL species-based characters like Toad or Kamek.
6. Hewer (talk) Like I made clear in my original proposal (which I'm not sure whether to be flattered or annoyed that you copy-pasted word for word), I don't think Birdo and Yoshi are completely identical situations as while Birdo has never really been distinguished from others of her kind, Yoshi has, and statements like "The rest of the history section is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi" don't really make sense.
7. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
8. KingGeoshiKoopshi64 (talk) Per all.
9. RealStuffMister (talk) While its never mentioned that the Yoshi in games like Mario Party, Mario Kart, etc. is the same specific yoshi or not, they're always treated as if they're same one throughout. For example, in Mario Party Superstars it lists Yoshi, as one character and not as a species, appearing in all previous mario party games, implying its the same character. In spin-offs like the mario cartoons, Yoshi is treated as a single, individual character. The pages are also different in what they talk about, the Yoshi (species) page discusses the species in general, the games they appear in and whatnot, while the Yoshi page is about Yoshi as a playable character, or, more importantly, a separate, distinguished character. Also, there are the points raised by Arend too, like him having his own house and stuff. to make a whole long story short: per all.
10. Archivist Toadette (talk) Per all.
11. Spectrogram (talk) per all.
12. BubbleRevolution (talk) Per all. While Nintendo doesn't bother to keep a distinction between Yoshi and the rest of his species most of the time, by the same logic we'd have to merge Toad with his species as well.
13. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all. I should've opposed the other ones when I had the chance.
14. Seandwalsh (talk) Per all. Those other character/species pages shouldn't be/have been merged either.

Comments

Well this was originally going to be my vote, but I think I wrote an essay instead. But there are still way more examples of when Yoshi was treated as an individual from his species. For starters, his Yoshi's Crafted World specifically states "There's Yoshi and there's all the other Yoshis", a clear indication that there is indeed the individual character. Second, Yoshi himself more often than not appears as the sole Green Yoshi in several games; if you notice in many spin-off games, Yoshi appears playable, then the crowd usually features other Yoshis, none of which are green. In fact, Mario Strikers: Battle League is the only game to date that I can recall that has Green Yoshis in the crowd as well as the playable Yoshi himself. While it's true that a few games do interchange him with his species (Mario Power Tennis, Mario Strikers: Battle League and the Kangaroo and Gold Egg variants in Mario Kart Tour), there are still many examples of where Yoshi is treated as an individual. Third, less information than the Birdo article? I really don't think that's a fair comparison, considering Birdo in Mario Kart Tour follows the same naming style as other characterized variants (Birdo (Yellow) as opposed to Yellow Birdo) signifying less of a species and more of the actual character as a different color, whereas Yoshi and Toad both acknowledge color palettes as different from their originals (Red Yoshi as opposed to Yoshi (Red)). Yoshi has had way more consistent appearances as a standalone character when compared to that of generic enemies such as Koopa Troopa or Shy Guy, who to this day are still not confirmed to be individual characters participating in several Mario Kart titles, where Yoshi was clearly stated in his Mario Party 10 bio to have attended every party to date. Tails777 Talk to me!

Where does that line show up in Yoshi's Crafted World? If anything, you would think the Yoshi platformers have indicated the opposite, considering Kamek/Bowser will refer to any Yoshi color as "Yoshi" (even "Mario's little pet" to any newborn in Yoshi's Story). Also, I'm not sure how Mario Kart Tour is supposed to prove anything one way or another, considering Shy Guy has the same name format. I think Yoshi and Shy Guy were going for how they were previously established, like you'd see in Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition or Paper Mario: Color Splash. I do disagree with the "lone generic x must be THE x!" approach which Yoshi has quite a number of (see Color Splash again), and think at best the character article can follow times that Yoshi has had familiarity with Mario like in Super Mario RPG or Super Mario 64, not when it's clearly a different Yoshi like Super Mario Sunshine or several Yoshi games like New Island. And @Arend: Yoshi's Egg has the same format (and so does Toad's House, sometimes); are the eggs only laid by one Yoshi? LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:44, October 1, 2022 (EDT)

No, but what I am saying is that in every appearance, Yoshi's House is owned by one particular Yoshi, which is implied to be the same one every time. Not to mention that in all mainline appearances (World, Odyssey, Galaxy 2), the house is vacant and Yoshi has always left a message behind that he is currently away. I can understand you would think these houses are owned by different Yoshis, considering their differing locations and appearances, but the implication that it's all the same Yoshi is still there.
Besides, Yoshi's Eggs are sometimes referred to as simply Yoshi Eggs, and Toad's Houses are more commonly referred to as Toad Houses, but Yoshi's House has never ben referred to as "a Yoshi House", so I don't think it's supposed to be the same kind of deal as those two. rend (talk) (edits) 08:15, October 1, 2022 (EDT)

Yoshi's House hasn't had enough named appearances to have as many translation quibbles, but if it did, it probably would. Multiple houses clearly styled after the original Super Mario World one have appeared in the Yoshi's Island games, where each Yoshi waits for Baby Mario to pass the Goal Ring, and Super Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time, where they're common structures on Yo'ster Isle / Yoshi's Island. Also, I'm not sure how being a householder necessarily implies it to be the same Yoshi, considering he signs his name differently in Super Mario Galaxy (I don't remember how he signs it in Super Mario Odyssey). Actually, come to think of it, doesn't having any non-green Yoshi change the Message Block in Super Mario World? (All Yoshis are referred to as "he" anyway, so I'm not sure what the italics mean.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:38, October 1, 2022 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty: Right on the official site, Yoshi's bio (which we do have on his statistics article too) specifically says "There’s Yoshi, and then there are all the other Yoshis: red, pink, blue, yellow, and more.", which to me is still a viable source to prove Nintendo does still see Yoshi as an individual. And this is a 2020 game, so it's clear Nintendo does show some acknowledgement on Yoshi's status as a character in modern times. Tails777 Talk to me!

Just so you know, that part is completely absent from the Japanese site, this is not even an isolated case, it's actually very interesting to see the parallels between Yoshi's bio in the English translation of the Mario Portal and the original Japanese bio, like in this case:

Japanese bio: 緑のヨッシーのほかにも、赤・水色・ピンクなど色違いのヨッシーもいます。

In addition to Green Yoshi, there are also Yoshi of different colors such as red, light blue and pink (Note how I didn't pluralize Yoshi because the term is always the same in Japanese whenever is singular or plural, so Green Yoshi could actually be Green Yoshis)

English bio: He is green, but others of his kind may be other colors such as red, blue, pink, and yellow.

These two approaches toward what is supposed to be the same sentence reflect very well how the Western approach differs from the Japanese one, and also means that we'll find indeed even recent Western material that talks about Yoshi as a character - that English translation was added this year -, but this won't really reflect how Yoshi is approached by Nintendo in Japan.--Mister Wu (talk) 00:25, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

The English bios on Portal are actually straight from the updated NOA Mario site bios, dating at least about a year back. SmokedChili (talk) 07:40, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

Sometimes I do wonder how much site writers coordinate with game localizers. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT)

An additional note I want to make, in many sources, such as the Yoshi's Story manual and Super Mario Sunshine manual, every Yoshi is simply called "Yoshi." Not "a Yoshi" or "the Yoshi," just "Yoshi," or "Yoshis" in plural. And furthermore, both Story and Sunshine are clearly different from the so-called "main" Yoshi in their respective predecessors, with the former just hatching and the latter having the water weakness stated to be a Delfino-only thing. So, if every Yoshi is "Yoshi," who is the character and how is he distinct? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:18, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

@Doc:A lack of distinction doesn't necessarily mean being an individual character is impossible, not when we have multiple minor NPCs who all look identical to their parent species, who get articles thanks to our Minor NPC policy. None of them have any distinction from their parent species. Ruddy Road Paint Guy doesn't fight any different than a normal Paint Guy, he doesn't look any different than a normal Paint Guy. The Goomba and Koopa don't have enough screen time to show they have any sort of distinct personality or visual traits that make them distinct from any other Goomba or Koopa, nor do they do anything super notable in their respective stories. Yoshi may not have any sort of difference from the rest of his species, but that doesn't mean he can't be an individual character. His Mario Party 10 bio says "The green gobbler has attended every Mario Party to date, and Flutter Jumps back into the fun this time around.", which clearly means that the Yoshi that has appeared in every Mario Party title before is the same Yoshi, something most other species members can't say for themselves, such as the Koopa Troopa in the Mario Kart series. Confirming that "this" Yoshi has been in every Mario Party shows consistency towards his individuality. Same can be said for the Super Smash Bros. series, as we know Sakurai has confirmed that Yoshi has appeared in all five games, pretty much saying the same thing; it's the same character. And while Snake's codec conversation doesn't share the same similarity, Pit's Palutena's Guidance has him saying "It's Yoshi!" rather than "It's a Yoshi!". Even if Smash is a multi series crossover and not always correct, it's information should still be relevant. Beyond that, multiple bios specifically use male pronouns to refer to him. If he wasn't an individual character, there likely wouldn't be such pronoun uses, instead opting to talk about the species as a whole and use words like "they". And even more so, multiple bios single out this Yoshi as a "friend to the Mario Bros.", which is again, something you likely wouldn't see if they were just referring to the species as a whole. It's clearly singling out a specific Yoshi that adventures with them often. Even if it's not always consistent, we shouldn't be ignoring these examples. Tails777 Talk to me!

That ignores my point of "Yoshi" as a name being used as a general term. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 08:31, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

Well Bob-omb from Origami King insists that his name is Bob-omb, which is just the general term for the species. Goomba from SMRPG is just Goomba, the general term for the species. And even if they are intending on being merged, nearly every Mario Party Advance character simply introduces themselves as their species name and Wiggler from both Paper Mario Sticker Star and, as far as I'm concerned, Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam is just referred to as "Wiggler", despite also being referred to in ways that suggest a character. Yoshi is far from the only character to have his species name be used as a general term as well as a name and several of my examples still have articles despite that similarity. I don't think being a general term means it can't be used as an individual's name. Tails777 Talk to me!09:27, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

Bob-omb is a distinct one-time character who has a role different from the others (unlike Yoshi), Goomba is a localization blunder (note the distinct Japanese name), MPA doesn't matter since they are to-be merged, and Wiggler's never been split off at all. None of those correlate at all to this. Yoshi has always been interchangeable in singular and plural. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:48, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

From a functional standpoint, you are correct; Yoshi does not have many distinct features from his species (if we want to exclude the fact that he can breathe fire with a Power Flower, but that's a power-up). But if you wanna look at it from a functional standpoint, Bob-omb's entire role just led up to him exploding, just told in a fancier way. It was cool that he had amnesia and that he had no fuse and there was a backstory to that, but at the end of the day, from a functional standpoint, his entire story just led up to him exploding, which is just a short story long for the life of any typical Bob-omb we see in plenty of standard Mario games. And in battle, he body slammed, something Bob-ombs also do (primarily in the Paper Mario games). I'm more than willing to accept that we just don't agree on this and that is fine. From a functional standpoint, Yoshi isn't different from his species, but that's really not all there is to it. I still see multiple times Nintendo has made an effort to distinguish Yoshi as an individual; his confirmed status as a perfect attendee to Mario Party and Super Smash Bros. and consistently being singled out as a friend to the Mario Bros. being the main examples of this. Tails777 Talk to me!17:53, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

One game I think we should take a look at here is Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle. When Yoshi first appears, Beep-0 calls him "the famous Yoshi", then asks him "So Yoshi, is it true you have your own island?" Nightwicked Bowser 06:34, October 3, 2022 (EDT)

I'm not ready to vote on this just yet, but I do think this should be a multi-option proposal instead of an all-or-nothing deal. The one thing I'm sure of right now is that the Yoshi article does have a problem with assuming that any singular green Yoshi is the Yoshi, even if it is not identified as such (e.g. NSMBWii and Color Splash). I'd suggest either moving those sections to a possible appearances section a la Toad's article or removing them entirely. 22:06, September 30, 2022 (EDT)

You know, I would be down with the Yoshi article having a "Possible appearances" section on his page. Feels like a good compromise. rend (talk) (edits) 13:03, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

By the way, do we have any policy against plagiarized proposals? Hewer stated that this one is copied nearly word for word from his proposal regarding Birdo, and plagiarism on articles (or basically anywhere really) is regarded as unacceptable, so uh... rend (talk) (edits) 12:54, October 2, 2022 (EDT)

@BubbleRevolution What is the issue with that, when it is in the same boat? That's what I want to happen. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:46, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

Because there's clearly examples of "Toad" as a singular character. Yes, there are instances of the franchise not really bothering to make a distinction between Toad as a character and Toad as a species at times, but the keyword here is "at times". There's plenty of instances of Toad as a character being treated as such (including the official Japanese website for the series referring to him this way), and Yoshi is very much the same way. There are Yoshis, and then there is THE Yoshi, who is treated as a singular character in the games he appears in, merging the pages would just make things unnecessarily confusing and also wouldn't reflect the actual way the "Yoshi" character is treated in appearances where they DO point out the one specific Yoshi. BubbleRevolution (talk) 16:47, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

In games with both singular and plural, they're really cutting back on distinguishing even that, like MK8's DLC Yoshi colors. NSMBUDX having blue and yellow Toad share a generic "Toad" slot, and the new Strikers treating them like the other characters except by allowing multiple of them at once, thus using both concepts concurrently in functionally identical ways, which for us means violating the "once and only once" rule. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:55, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

DLC colors aren't really an indicator of much since that's not a story-based or in-universe sort of thing, it's literally just an alternate palette. Ultimately, the big issue is there are a large number of times that Yoshi and Toad ARE treated as singular characters, just ones part of a massively identical species. Erasing that from the wiki just complicates things and doesn't reflect the actual history of the series or the character. Comparing this to the Birdo proposal, the major difference between those two are that there aren't specific characters who are part of the "Birdo" species and aren't just generic Birdos, while there are several specific characters of the "Yoshi" race (Boshi, Mini-Yoshi), as well as numerous specific Toad characters, including Toadette, whose relationship with Toad the character has actually been specified multiple times.

To sum it up, yes, there are times when Nintendo doesn't bother to keep the distinction between character and species separate, but there are also numerous times when they do, and this should be reflected on the wiki. Furthermore, in branding, Yoshi and Toad are treated as characters first and foremost, and as a species second. BubbleRevolution (talk) 17:08, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

Hard agree with BubbleRevolution here, I was fine with the Boom Boom and Birdo merges because there wasn't much going for their respective species, but I think doing those merges for Yoshi, Toad and Kamek are just going too far are will lead to pretty messy and cramped organisation when there is a lot to say about both character and species. Nightwicked Bowser 17:16, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

Yeah, merging Kamek would be a baffling choice since that one specific Magikoopa actually has a specific position in the world of the games and appears fairly consistently. BubbleRevolution (talk) 17:23, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

I'm curious what you mean by "actual history of the series or the character," since both "character" and "species" iterations influence on each other is characterized at intervening points; MagiKamek is probably the most blatant example. To that end, I say keeping them split is a disservice for leaving out important details of the design and characterization's influence. (Also, a lot of other games make a big point about there not being a "singular" Toad, like in Color Splash where it's the basis of a joke that otherwise makes no sense). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:27, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

But Yoshi, Toad, and Kamek all have been treated as recurring, singular individuals who also appear alongside others of their species. Yes, sometimes there's inconsistency, but in most appearances of the specific characters, they are explicitly treated as "_, the character" rather than "_, the species". Getting rid of the character page and merging it into the species pages doesn't reflect the official depictions of "Yoshi" as a singular entity. This is especially egregious for Kamek, who is a specifically established character who despite the Japanese name being the same, is always portrayed as one specific Magikoopa who acts as Bowser's advisor and raised him. BubbleRevolution (talk) 18:35, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

Except on a good chunk of appearances where he's some random guy. Might as well treat the singular Magikoopas predating SMW2 from Adventures, Kun, and Safari as him (and I question why we don't). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:54, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

Except those are specifically referred to as "Kamek" in the English games, so that counts as a source, there's also no real indication he's NOT supposed to be that same character, and just some random Magikoopa. The fact is, in Japanese, there's an "individual Kamek" and a "Kamek species", much like Yoshi or Toad, I did some digging and plenty of Japanese articles on the enemy point out a difference between "zako (generic enemy) Kamek" and "aide Kamek". We don't treat Magikoopas predating SMW2 as him as the "aide Kamek" character had not been established yet.

Regardless, this has gotten off-topic and the point I'm making is that there is a distinct "Yoshi" character, as established multiple times. Japanese sites I looked at also make a distinction between "Yoshi the character" and "Yoshi the race" so it's clear this isn't some localization-induced thing, there's a need for both pages. BubbleRevolution (talk) 19:11, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

Just to clarify, we don't base ourselves on anything but official sources even in the context of Japanese material. Zako Kamek and aide Kamek aren't official names, ditto for Yoshi the character and Yoshi the race. It's actually worth reminding how official text went as far as reminding us that Yoshi is not a personal name like Mario.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:09, October 9, 2022 (EDT)

I figured I would add this here since it's pretty relevant to the proposal - I've indicated before that Super Mario RPG is, in my opinion, one of the strongest indicators for a Japanese depiction of Yoshi as a character (to say nothing of Toad, which is used in the context of an individual despite some characters using some variant of it [Nintendo hardly if ever uses the same name for a character and species simultaneously in the same game, and I'd be curious if the movie will be the one to break that trend]). However, I came across something that made me do a double-take on that idea. Near the bottom of this Supper Mario Broth post tracing high-quality artwork of Beeg Yoshi Baby Fat, you can see an official trading card labeling his Japanese name as plain Yoshi, instead of the expected Chibi-Yossy for a Baby Yoshi. This also calls into question the identity of "Yoshi" in the Yoshi Shell game, which is a Baby Yoshi as well. Basically, the one talking green Yoshi in that appearance may just be a Yoshi that happens to talk, as "Yoshi" applies to other green members of his species. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT)

I would like to reiterate that, like Hewer stated before, that this proposal is copied nearly word for word from his Merging this with Birdo proposal, just with every instance of "Birdo" swapped with "Yoshi" and vice versa (as well as their respective debut games being swapped), and the first sentence perring Doc removed. This is very noticeable when comparing the two proposals (seriously, both bring up that they keep thinking about the Miyamoto quote, both bring up that what on their respective pages may be mere fan speculation, even the darn proposal title has the exact same structure), and also highlight some anomalies:

• "The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article." There only was one Yoshi in the Super Mario World TV series, and that's Yoshi the character, but this sentence is still talking about Yoshi the species (their article actually never mentions the TV series at all). This was definitely blindly copied from the Birdo proposal, since multiple characters from the Birdo species appeared in the Super Mario Bros Super Show instead of a single Birdo.
• "Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Birdo, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa [...]" As I stated, this proposal swaps every instance of "Birdo" with "Yoshi" and vice versa, but this kind of creates an inconsistency with which species/character actually has less information than the other. According to Hewer's proposal, Birdo has less information for character and species each than Yoshi, but this proposal states that Yoshi has less information for those than Birdo. Which statement is actually correct here??? If Yoshi actually has less info, doesn't that mean that Birdo should be re-split, since it's being compared here with other individual characters like Toad and Kamek? Or does Yoshi have more information than Birdo after all, meaning that this is another blindly copied sentence that the proposer never thought twice about, and thus needs to be removed since it's an incorrect argument? Which is it??

Now that this problem is being largely ignored by anyone else is one thing I find concerning (I mean, it is plagiarism), but what I find even more concerning is that the proposer, Teh Other (talk), seemingly ignores this problem. In fact, Teh Other seemingly never left any comment here regarding the issues of the opposition, which are mostly countered by LinkTheLefty and Doc von Schmeltwick instead (the latter being the only other supporter of the proposal). Now the reason why I find the lack of Teh Other's presence concerning is because this proposal is his opinion, his reasoning why the Yoshi articles should be merged. And he just... blindly copied Hewer's proposal and swapped a couple of words. Are these his actual opinions, does he really think Birdo as a character and as a species have more separate information than Yoshi? Or was he too lazy to write up any arguments himself, and just lazily copied a similar proposal by someone else without actually reading what it said? I would really like Teh Other to reevaluate his proposal and address the problems from the copied proposal, as well as his actual arguments, in his own words.
And again, I want to know if plagiarized proposals like this is actually allowed. rend (talk) (edits) 11:41, October 9, 2022 (EDT)

I apologize for not being diligent enough in cancelling this when it was first brought up. This isn't acceptable. --Glowsquid (talk) 11:59, October 9, 2022 (EDT)