Template talk:Foreign names

How are we to handle different translations into the same language? Case in point, the page for the Fountain lists its French name as "Salle de bains", which I presume is the name in the PAL version of SMG, because the NTSC French version calls it "la Fontaine". How should one remark both names? Gus 03:34, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Actually, I didn't even know that Mario games are available in different languages in North America. Are there more languages in North American versions (European ones usually offer five languages)? And what about Latin America, do they get Mario games in Spanish and Portuguese or just the English versions? And what is Rosalina named in NTSC French version, Harmonie like in French European version or Rosalina? Uh, to answer your question, I'd just enter both names like done here. --Grandy02 06:11, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

The back of the NTSC Super Mario Galaxy box mentions the game is available in French and Spanish. See here. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 09:08, 23 January 2009 (EST)

French and Spanish in the Americas

It seems that there are more and more French and Spanish names that differ between Europe and the Americas since the versions for the latter region are available in three languages recently. Should we create separate entries for French and Spanish names in the Americas? Just a suggestion, continuing the current way is also fine for me. --Grandy02 09:56, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

I went ahead and added this functionality to the template. It seems like a better solution to me, but users who prefer the current system can still use it. Also, which dialect(s) of Chinese are Mario games released in? This seems like something we should specify. - 2257^(Talk) 11:13, 1 November 2009 (EST)

I looked at the game names listed in the iQue article and they all must be in Mandarin; the names don't come out properly in any dialect that preserves final consonants (almost all the others). "Mario" becomes "Ma-lik-au" and "Zelda" becomes "Choi-yi-daat" in Cantonese. Sarisa 11:19, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Prefix

Why is everything but Dutch the first three letters for the prefix (e.g. Spa=Spanish, Ger=German, Chi=Chinese, etc)? Shouldn't Dutch be "Dut" rather than "Ndl"? --Garlic Man (talk)

I suppose it's because the Dutch word for Dutch is "Nederlands". But that's not consistent with the prefixes for Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and German, of course. - 2257^(Talk) 15:54, 30 January 2010 (EST)

Exactly. Japanese would have to be Nip, German would be Deu, Spanish would be Esp, etc. Thus, I've changed Dutch to "Dut". (I'll fix any articles that use the "Ndl" prefix for the template; although I doubt it's used very often) --Garlic Man (talk)

The Example

As the standard way of inserting a Japanese name into the foreignname template is to write the name in Japanese characters after the Jap= followed by the romanisation after JapR=, should the example be changed to reflect this? It currently puts a romanised name after Jap=, which is not how it is normally done unless the correct way of writing the name in Japanese characters is unknown.-vellidragon 19:01, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

I changed it. It should show how it is done right for that kind of name. --Grandy02 08:37, 5 June 2010 (EDT)

Brazilian Portuguese

I know somethings in Brazilian Portuguese, but I can't write it because thats in Portugal Portuguese and worse: I can't edit it to add the language. Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 11:35, 7 September 2011 (EDT)

Traditional and Simplified Chinese

The Traditional Chinese version Mario games is coming out recent years. I want to edit Traditional Chinese name for characters and objects, but I find I must put it with Simplified Chinese. There is a big deal. Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese are using different name and different pronunciation. It should not be put together. So I hope we can create separate entries for it. --NM4000T4 19:55, 22 April 2012 (EDT)

People in mainland China and Hong Kong do translation separately. For example, iQue translates Mario as 马力欧 while people in HK translates as 瑪利歐, which are different despite Traditional and Simplified differences. I wonder how many groups of people are doing translation in Chinese-speaking area. Another gossip-loving Toad (talk) 10:22, 31 January 2015 (EST)

Russian Name

Not need a romanized Russian Name? -Odo2718 08:23, 27 May 2012 (EDT)

Interwiki

Someone should add the following to the template:

{{#ifeq: {{{ItA}}} | - | | {{#if: {{{It|}}} | [[it:{{{ItA|{{{It}}}}}}]] }} }}{{#ifeq: {{{GerA}}} | - | | {{#if: {{{Ger|}}} | [[de:{{{GerA|{{{Ger}}}}}}]] }} }}

With this, the template sets the interwiki links to the italien and the german wiki automatically.

The "ItA" and "GerA" is needed, when the name under the "Italien" or "German" section of this template is different from the actual name of the article in the italien or german wiki. For example: The name of the Super Mario World tv series is simply "Super Mario World" so:

|Ger=Super Mario World

But the actual name of the article to this tv series in the german wiki is "Super Mario World (TV-Serie)" so:

|GerA=Super Mario World (TV-Serie)

The template shows "Super Mario World" but sets a interwiki link to the actual article "Super Mario World (TV-Serie)"

Sincerly, DarkLuigi (talk) 06:10, 9 October 2012 (EDT)

British and American English

What is about both English variants. For MKWII I know definitely, that some names different, e.g. Sneakster and Nitrocycle. Compare the U and E files of http://szs.wiimm.de/download/bmg/

Another question: What means "NOE"?

Wiimm (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2013 (EDT)

"Nintendo of Europe", I guess. MegaKoopa Talk 14:09, 31 December 2013 (EST)

Suggested edit.

May I suggest to we use <span class="explain"> for romanisations? For example, instead of

ここは　ヨッシー
Koko wa Yosshī Airando

we have instead

ここは　ヨッシー?

—★レシイラム^talk 06:07, 27 October 2013 (EDT)

I'm sorry but I think we'd better not. Kana don't look familiar to American or European readers, but almost everyone knows Latin alphabet. So I think we might as well lay the romanization on the page to indicate how to read the Japanese. I suggest using <span class="explain"> to spell kanji in terms of kana, such as "不思議 fushigi". Another gossip-loving Toad (talk) 21:30, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Other suggestions

I have some suggestions for this:

• Change the "meaning" header to "meaning and/or etymology";
• Make the "meaning" column optional (see Earth locations for example);
• And make it more original rather than just a simple white table.

Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 12:14, 24 August 2014 (EDT)

Use for another Wiki

Well, I can't edit the template, but I want to copy it for an idea for a template like this on my SMG Fanon Wikia. Kirby kart

themushroomkingdom.net

There are lots of Japanese names at themushroomkingdom.net that can be imported to this wiki's "Names in other languages" sections. Can we carry out a plan to import them? If there are people interested and want to do the work, we can maintain a progress chart. It would be too boring for one person to do them all. Another gossip-loving Toad (talk) 07:07, 4 February 2015 (EST)

It's probably for the best if any foreign names are added by someone who directly viewed them. Not that TMK isn't considered trustworthy, but it's better if we actually confirm the names before mass-dumping them. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Oops, in the past few days I was mass-dumping them, by far the "Items" section and all below of "Paper Mario: From Japanese to English", and I can't confirm most of them. (The ones I can confirm, though, are right.) Maybe some Japanese can do it better, and I'd better stop. Another gossip-loving Toad (talk) 10:15, 4 February 2015 (EST)

Personally, I think it's okay to use secondary sources for names as long as we cite them, in case something is wrong. Plus, credit where credit is due: we wouldn't want folks mass-dumping our info without giving us proper credit, after all - that's one step below plagiarism. So I'd say at the very least, go back and cite TMK for all the pages you added Japanese names to. Use this: <ref>[http://themushroomkingdom.net/pm_j-e.shtml "Paper Mario: From Japanese to English"]. (June 17, 2013). ''The Mushroom Kingdom.'' Retrieved February X, 2015.</ref> (but substituting the correct date, of course). - Walkazo 11:51, 4 February 2015 (EST)

I'm sorry for the delay (I went to the countryside in Ji'an last month and had no Internet access) but I've now finished adding the credit. Also I'm sorry for causing this trouble. I guess this edit should be deleted too. Are there more problems that need to be fixed? Another gossip-loving Toad (talk) 11:32, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Russian romanization

Currently these pages have Russian but lack romanizations. Can someone add them?

Page	Russian	Meaning
Banana	Банан	Banana
Bob-omb	Боб-омб	Transliteration of the international name
Boost Mode	Режим Поддержки
Bullet Bill	Билл-пуля	Bill-Bullet
Challenge Mode (New Super Mario Bros. U)	На время, Монетки, Жизни, Особые, Режим Испытания
Coin	Монета	Coin
Coin Battle	Бой с монетками
Dice Block	Кубик	Dice Block, Block
Donkey Kong's Crash Course	Опасный маршрут Донки Конга	Donkey Kong's Dangerous Route
Double Mario	Двойной Марио	Double Mario
Elite Trio	Элитный отряд	Elite squad
Fire Flower	Огненный цветок	Fiery Flower
Flying Squirrel Mario	Марио-Летяга	Flying Squirrel Mario
Gemstone	Аметист, Изумруд, Рубин, Сапфир, Бриллиант	Amethyst, Emerald, Ruby, Sapphire, Diamond
Golden Mushroom	Золотой гриб ускорения	Golden Mushroom of Acceleration
Green Shell	Зеленый панцирь	Green Shell
Lava	Лава
Lightning	Молния	Lighting
London	Лондон
Luigi's Ghost Mansion	Луиджи и его дом с призраками	Luigi and his haunted house
Mario Chase	Поймайте Марио!	Catch Mario!
Mega Man	Мегамен	Megamen
Octopus Dance	Танец осьминога
Red Coin	Красная Монета	Red Coin
Red Shell	Красный панцирь	Red Shell
Rocket Start	Быстрое Начало	Fast Start
Rope	канат
Slick	Слики
Spiny	Колючкин	Spinier
Super Acorn	Супержелудь	Superacorn
Super Bell	Супер Колокол	Super Bell
Super Leaf	Суперлист	Superleaf
Super Star	Супер звезда	Superstar
Tri-Speeder	Тримобиль	Number three and automobile (car) = Trimobile
Welcome To Yoshi's Island	Добро Пожаловать на Остров Йоши	Welcome to the Island of Yoshi's
Yoshi's Fruit Cart	Фруктовая тележка Йоши	Yoshi's Fruit Cart
Zeekeeper	Сон-птица	Dream Bird

Another gossip-loving Toad (talk) 09:47, 15 August 2015 (EDT)

Done. (I was using Google Translate, wikipedia:WP:RUS and Wiktionary for the romanizations.) A gossip-loving Toad (Talk) 00:01, 20 May 2016 (EDT)

Hungarian support

Add Hun (Hungarian) to the language list. Currently Fire Sale's "names in other languages" section has a Hun row included, which is still not visible. MeerkatMario (talk) 13:58, 2 September 2015 (EDT)

Hebrew support

I know the only Mario production to be translated/dubbed into Hebrew is The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, but it should still be added anyway. RaguRando (talk) 14:18, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

It's been added. --Glowsquid (talk) 15:14, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

Thank you! RaguRando (talk) 15:58, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

Compatibility with the mobile skin

I was using the mobile skin and found that this template uses the "infobox" class instead of a "wikitable" class. This makes the table aligned due right. I would like you to change that. And if the style was changed after that, add a "other-languages" class (or id) and configure it with CSS. Thanks. － yhynerson1 (talk, contribs) 19:10, 13 November 2015 (EST)

Please go through this problem as soon as possible. － yhynerson1 (talk, contribs) 09:21, 14 November 2015 (EST)

Is it serviceable now? - Walkazo 12:30, 14 November 2015 (EST)

I've just checked. It looks perfect. Thanks. － yhynerson1 (talk, contribs) 22:38, 14 November 2015 (EST)

Scandinavia

Could someone please add Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish to this template as there already are at least one page using that parameter and I intend to watch the animated shows dubbed in those languages and add their names for stuff. --Raltseye prata med mej 19:39, 14 September 2017 (EDT)
EDIT: I realized I said this in the middle of a bulk edit, so I'll ping it now that it's lesser edits and therefore a bigger chance of someone seeing it. --Raltseye prata med mej 08:03, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Wait there's no language called Scandinavic :P I just wanted you to add the Scandinavic languages (Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish) :S --Raltseye prata med mej 09:17, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

time to smell the coffee --Glowsquid (talk) 09:56, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Happy smellin --Raltseye prata med mej 10:05, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

IT SEEMS THAT THE TEMPLATE IS ONLY FOR NAMES THAT APPEAR IN OFFICIAL LOCALIZATIONS, WHICH DON'T EXIST IN THE SCANDINAVIAN LANGUAGES, AS FAR AS I KNOW.  Caps Lock LORD 05:02, 5 November 2017 (EST)

Please don't use all caps. The template is for all medias including dubs, official websites, and all other medias. --Raltseye prata med mej 16:27, 5 November 2017 (EST)

Japanese names written in English

As you can see from the Mario Playing Cards, in Japanese there are quite a few names written in English which do not exactly correspond to the Romanization of the Japanese name (as an example, Koopa is not the proper romanization of 「クッパ」, Kameck is not the proper romanization of 「カメック」, not to talk about the names of the Koopalings, Bullet Bill and Birdo which clearly are English names rather than romanized Japanese names), should we add a JapE entry for them so we can list them along with the Japanese names written in Katakana or should we just use the Jap entry?--Mister Wu (talk) 10:22, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Czech, Hungarian, and Polish

Could someone add these languages please? Princess Peach is given a local name in the Super Mario Odyssey pages; (also, T-Rex)

• cz
• hu
• pl

--Raltseye prata med mej 09:49, 7 December 2017 (EST) Please, someone?

Czech and Polish have been added, although it looks like Hungarian's already there. Mario JC 21:51, 8 December 2017 (EST)

Thanks! --Raltseye prata med mej 05:22, 9 December 2017 (EST)

Separating Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese

I see that in the template, American and European French and Spanish can be accepted as separate entries by the template if they're different. A lot of S. Chinese names are also different from T. Chinese names, but we have to separate them manually.
Can S and T Chinese be added to the template just like A and E French/Spanish?
ChiS/ChiSR/ChiSM and ChiT/ChiTR/ChiTM should be good for the purpose. H.N.K. 12:19, 3 January 2019 (GMT+8)

5 New Languages

Although each one has only been used for one or two things, they still have each been officially used.

Galician: Saturday Supercade

Thai: The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3

Slovenian: The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3

Greek: The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3

Arabic: The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World (the TV show)

Grandet Omate (talk) 11:21, August 11, 2020 (EDT)

Back on this I would also recommend adding Indonesian: SMBSS and Slovak: Nintendo official website (might be Czech, better to look into before adding). Also I was apparently too blind to notice that Greek is already there, so need to add that. Also with the creation of several of the Galician SS episode related stuff, such as Belinda, it would be good to have that soon. I only speak English and Spanish, but I’m sure someone will be able to use those languages. I also found 2 WP articles for Mario in Belarusian and Ukraine, but I don’t know how true those are.

Grandet Omate (talk) 00:14, October 5, 2020 (EDT)

Literal translation

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Stop using "literal translation" entirely 1-0-1-12
As there isn't an official rule/guideline about whether or not to use "literal translation" (or a variation thereof) (and if so, how to use it), I suggest that we make one.

Proposer: RickTommy (talk)
Deadline: November 24, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Use "literal translation" to refer to the English name

1. RickTommy (talk) Well, this is an English wiki, and a casual reader would logically assume that it's referring to the English name. And yes, I know that the vast majority of Mario games were originally in Japanese, and that localisers use the Japanese version instead of the English version as the base (although that wasn't always the case (no rhyme intended)). But localisers seem to at least have some inspiration from the English version. Or is it just coincidence that some localised names just happen to be translations of the English name?

Instead of "literal translation", use some other non-repeating wording

1. RickTommy (talk) Second preferred option. Yes, I fully admit that "literal translation" is vague wording, and should instead be clearer - something along the lines of "translation of the English/Japanese name".

Don't use "literal translation" at all

1. Archivist Toadette (talk) I always found it vague and confusing, and I think the logic also applies to the readers. We shouldn't be lazy for the sake of being lazy.
2. LinkTheLefty (talk) I'd just do away with this entirely. I never really liked it and the first option is actively misleading, and the second option isn't always obvious.
3. Keyblade Master (talk) We normally don't allow these kind of translations anyway.
4. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Toadette. The fact that so many editors have been confused over its usage for so long to the point that this proposal had to be made is probably a good indication we should do away with it altogether.
5. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per all.
6. Mario jc (talk) Yep, per all. Just write out the meaning as the header says.
7. DarkNight (talk) Per all.
8. Niiue (talk) Per all.
9. Owencrazyboy9 (talk) My preferred option. It's not always obvious with some games whether English or Japanese is the original language the games were developed in.
10. HappyToad (talk) See my comment below
11. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per proposal.
12. Benjaminkirsc (talk) That is very confusing. Also per all.

Comments

I'd never really thought about it, but now that it's been brought up, I've suddenly realised how vague the term is (to be perfectly honest, I thought it meant something completely different to what everyone else here does), so I think that unless we can properly clarify the meaning and potentially make large-scale changes to the affected pages, the simplest thing to do is just take the term out of circulation entirely. Also, as Archivist Toadette said, the use of these literal translations borders on laziness anyway. HappyToad ^{(TALK • EDITS)} 04:26, November 15, 2020 (EST)

All Languages needed

I made this a new section since it doesn’t really fit under "5 languages" anymore. Here is a list of all missing languages:

• Arabic: TAOSMB3 and SMW TV show (needs romanization section)
• Galician: Saturday Supercade (needed for Belinda)
• Greek: TAOSMB3 (needs romanization section)
• Malay: SMBSS
• Slovak: LEGO Mario app
• Slovene: TAOSMB3
• Thai: TAOSMB3 (needs romanization section)
• Turkish: LEGO Mario app
• Ukrainian: LEGO Mario app (needs romanization section)

Please don’t ignore me like everyone always does.

Grandet Omate (talk) 09:42, January 8, 2021 (EDT)

Yeah, I think that's reasonable. 10:30, January 8, 2021 (EST)

All Languages Needed (Revised)

I have a list of every official language that needs to be added now:

• Arabic: Super Mario (needs romanization section)
• Croatian: Super Mario World
• Estonian: Lego.com
• Greek: The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World (needs romanization section)
• Indonesian: The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!
• Latvian: Lego.com
• Lithuanian: Lego.com
• Slovak: Lego.com and Nintendo.com
• Slovenian: The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3
• Thai: The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 (needs romanization section)
• Turkish: LEGO Mario app
• Ukrainian: LEGO Mario app (needs romanization section)

It didn’t feel right to respond to another user with, so I made it a new section. Grandet Omate (talk) 14:05, April 20, 2021 (EDT)

Talked in North or Latin America?

I'm a bit upset with a part of this template. You see, the sections for French and Spanish have 2 variants: NOA (North American) and NOE (European): I'm OK with the French language in that respect (obviously, because of Canada's french inside Quebec), but with Spanish I'm not OK. I mean, in The Americas, Spanish is mainly talked in South America and Mexico and they form, alongside Brazil and French Guiana, what's called Latin America, and the people who live there are around 600.000.000, as opposed to the 40.000.000 people who live in the USA and speak Spanish alongside English. Then, why did the template's creator chose to call that variation "NOA" Spanish when most people that speak Spanish in The Americas don't live in the US?

--LEGOGames1000 (talk) 13:00, May 9, 2021 (EDT)

I believe in this case that NOE and NOA stand for Nintendo of Europe and Nintendo of America respectively. If I'm remembering correctly, as far as I know Nintendo of America handles translations for Latin America and South America as well as North America. So I think the template is referring to the translation by Nintendo of America, not the translation for North America. Someone else can correct me on this if I'm wrong though. BBQ Turtle (talk) 13:09, May 9, 2021 (EDT)

Order

Instead of alphabetical order, how about an order that makes more sense, such as age/importance, sort of like how SmashWiki does it. My proposed order: Japanese --> French --> German --> Spanish --> Italian --> Dutch --> Chinese --> Korean --> Russian --> Portuguese --> everything else. RickTommy (talk) 20:26, June 9, 2021 (EDT)

I'd personally put Spanish above French, but this seems like a good order. I do wonder why this was changed. Scrooge200 (talk) 21:42, June 13, 2021 (EDT)

It was changed because the list was getting long and for tables with many languages, it wasn't intuitive for a new reader to find the language they're looking for. --Steve (talk) 22:49, June 13, 2021 (EDT)

Official guide on when to list certain translations

Hi, I have always been confused on what the rules/preferred way is. For stuff like game titles it seems like we only list translations that are either in a different writing style (JP/CN/KR) and languages where the title is the same (usually FR/ES/DE etc...) arent listed even if the game supports said languages. Super Mario Odyssey as an example. Yet other stuff such as enemies have languages where the name of the thing is the same still listed ( Goomba as an example). Is it literally just video game titles that don't list the "redundant" languages or is it something else? and is this rule mentioned anywhere or did it kind of just happen? - Zachruff (talk) 23:56, December 22, 2021 (EST)

Icelandic, Malay

Could someone add Icelandic? This is needed since The Super Mario Bros. Movie is being translated into these languages. --Raltseye prata med mej 08:40, October 13, 2022 (EDT)

Please add Serbian

It is officially now known that The Super Mario Bros. Movie will be dubbed into Serbian. Could you please add this Serbo-Croatian language variety to the template? The only other Serbo-Croatian standardized variant that's currently represented is Croatian. Zakawer2 (talk) 12:22, November 30, 2022 (EST)

Add parameters for Serbo-Croatian and Bosnian

I am requesting the addition of a Serbo-Croatian parameter that is separate from the existing Serbian and Croatian ones, to be used in instances where the name of a particular subject is the same across Serbo-Croatian standards. This is currently the case with a few LEGO Super Mario products: for example, the name of the Banzai Bill set is identical between the official Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian LEGO stores. Serbian and Croatian should still have their own parameters, though, to account for regional differences, akin to the "Spanish (NOA)" and "Spanish (NOE)" parameters. In this respect, a parameter for Bosnian names should also be added, as a few LEGO Super Mario products listed on the Bosnian LEGO store, such as the SM64 ? Block, have localised names that differ from their Serbian and Croatian counterparts and should be documented. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 20:57, January 17, 2023 (EST)

Adopt the de-facto format for dissecting foreign names

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

do not use format 1-3

Proposer: Jdtendo (talk)
Deadline: December 5, 2023, 23:59 GMT

There is currently no official format for dissecting foreign names in "Names in other languages" sections. However, there is a de-facto format is used extensively throughout the Super Mario Wiki: surrounding the foreign words with quotation marks (or angle brackets for Japanese and Chinese), and surrounding the English translation with parentheses. Here is an example:

Language	Name	Meaning	Notes
Japanese	マガツリー Magatsurī	Play on「禍津日神」(Magatsuhi-kami, god of misfortune) and「ツリー」(tsurī, tree)
Italian	Stregalbero	From "strega" (witch) and "albero" (tree)
Spanish (NOA)	Arbólico	From "árbol" (tree) and "diabólico" (diabolic)

However, some users disagree and will edit a page just for replacing the de-facto format used in a "Names in other languages" section with another format which they consider to be the "right" format, usually by replacing the quotations marks with italics or adding quotation marks around the English translation. Conversely, other users will edit a page just to replace that alternative format with the de-facto format. Basically, every user has their own vision of how name dissecting should be formatted, and this creates unnecessary edits and disputes.

I propose that we officially adopt the de-facto format for dissecting names, i.e., that we add a subsection in the "Meaning guidelines" section that describes how to dissect names in accordance with the de-facto format. This would provide a clear-cut way to settle format-related disputes, whilst not requiring too many page edits to accomodate the format since it is already widely used.

Support

1. Jdtendo (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

1. Koopa con Carne (talk) Most major style manuals (sources in that link), including the wiki's go-to manual MLA, recommend italicizing foreign words, whether always or only or their first use. Official style manuals exist for a purpose: to make writing consistent and help instil some professionality. The format in your proposal doesn't do much in the way of that: why are romanized Japanese words written in italics, but not other foreign words? what makes foreign words, but not their translations, specifically fit to have quotation marks? isn't the purpose of quotation marks to set off words that are mentioned or listed separately from the rest of their clause? Perhaps there are cases where the wiki can deviate ever so slightly from established writing standards to accommodate whatever specific needs it has, especially since style manuals themselves aren't a commandment from the heavens and are subject to change; that doesn't mean it should fully embark in that direction and make rules on the fly, moreso if the only argument for it is "well it's always been that way". Make it make sense.
2. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per Koopa con Carne
3. YoYo (talk) Per Koopa con Carne

Comments

I understand the desire to minimize unnecessary edits, but what makes the de facto format the ideal choice? The format used by MLA standards doesn't do that, it uses italics around foreign words and quotes around the translations (which I assume is because for translations it's meant to indicate what parts of the sentence are the translation, eg. 'It translates to "the bird"'). Also, just to let you know, those edits with people changing one style to another is mostly a group of IPs, I've seen many users here revert those edits before. ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 07:07, November 21, 2023 (EST)

I'm not sure whether following the MLA standards really matters. Personally, I find the de-facto format easier on the eyes. As for the people making the edits, some of them are registered users. One recent example is the Kero Sewers page, in which one registered user replaced the de-facto style with the italicized format, then another registered user reverted it to the de-facto format. Jdtendo^(T|C) 14:33, November 22, 2023 (EST)

Can we add some more Jap slots?

Some things have many names and the numbered method is a lifesaver. But since there's only three slots, that mitigates its usefulness in many cases. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:56, January 7, 2024 (EST)

Adding to this - I think Chinese and Korean can benefit from some number slots, too. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:05, January 7, 2024 (EST)

Bug when mixing "Fre" and "FreA"

There is a bug in the template when specifying the "Fre" argument along with "FreA" or "FreE". For example, in the Monty Mole article, this source code is used:

|FreA=La taupe Monty (''[[Super Mario World]]'' manual)
|FreAM=The Monty mole
|Fre=Topi Taupe
|FreM=From ''taupe'' ("mole")

It specifies that Monty Moles were originally called "La taupe Monty" in the Canadian French manual of SMW but are now called "Topi Taupe" in all French-speaking regions. However, the name "La taupe Monty" is inaccurately displayed in both "French" and "French (NOA)" sections. I think that this is due to the use of #forargs in the template that allows parameterized argument names such as "Fre2", "Fre3", etc. but it also mistakingly consider "FreA" as a valid parameterized argument name for "Fre".

The template already checks for argument names ending with "M" to exclude them from the parameterized arguments, but it should also exclude argument names starting with "FreA" or "FreE" when checking for parameterized arguments for "Fre". Or better yet, we could check whether the parameterized keys only contain digits ("Fre2", "Fre3"…) and exclude the keys that contain other characters ("FreA", "FreM"…). I think that this could be done using regex with something like {{#rmatch:{{#var:key}}|^[0-9]*$|yes|no}}.

This bug probably affects other argument names that are a prefix of another argument name, such as "Chi" ("ChiS", "ChiT"), "Fre" ("FreA", "FreE"), "Por" ("PorA", "PorE"), "Ser" ("SerCro"), "Spa" ("SpaA", "SpaE"). Jdtendo^(T|C) 03:18, February 14, 2024 (EST)

Ah, good point. Currently doing the check a different way, but it should be fixed now. Thanks! --Steve (talk) 10:18, February 14, 2024 (EST)

Unfortunately, it does not work for "FreE" because {{#expr:E}} is a valid expression that evaluates to 2.718281828459. Jdtendo^(T|C) 10:38, February 14, 2024 (EST)

Maybe checking {{#expr:{{#var:key}}0}} would work. "E" is a valid expression, but "E0" is not, whereas a number key would still be a number. Jdtendo^(T|C) 10:48, February 14, 2024 (EST)

Yes, I think we're good to go with the 0's! --Steve (talk) 11:02, February 14, 2024 (EST)

Non-in-game

Do non-in-game names that are identical to the English name count? RickTommy (talk) 19:50, March 19, 2024 (EDT)

I think that they count, as long as they come from an official source. Jdtendo^(T|C) 11:59, March 20, 2024 (EDT)

In other languages

Could someone link the German template? The German template is called: "Vorlage:Sprachen" --WorthYapper958 (talk) 11:12, August 20, 2024 (EDT)

Citations in the template itself

This talk page or section has a conflict or question that needs to be answered. Please try to help and resolve the issue by leaving a comment.

With the proposal requiring sources for foreign names recently passing, much concern has been made about taking up too much space in the references section. Then it stuck me — couldn't a new column be added to the existing template for citations? Could also make adding sources simpler / less details would need to be added maybe. I'm not entirely sure how it would look but I thought I'd suggest the idea. Technetium (talk) 22:13, August 26, 2024 (EDT)

I can't say I'm really a fan of this change. Being able to include dialogue snippets or where the name appears in the game was helpful and also backed up the source more than just saying it's from a certain game. (Keep in mind that however we apply it for games probably extends to all other source types.) Also, in some cases I feel this is unintentionally misleading. Using Don Pianta to name one example, you could easily misinterpret all of these names as originating from the Switch version of TTYD in a way that, at least in my opinion, simply using that version as a regular source did not. Finally, this change has been applied wiki-wide, so until we can cover the literal thousands of pages using this template, they end up looking like this. At worst, it makes us look unprofessional for having so many apparently "unsourced" names, and silly for cases where there is a source but it hasn't been applied to the new formatting.

IMO, the concern about references sections getting bloated is overblown anyway. It's a small section at the bottom of the page, and really, we shouldn't be worrying about how many sources a page has - if something needs to be sourced, source it. We don't need to arbitrarily keep the number of sources down - should we be taking an axe to Super Mario Galaxy's 153 references solely because the list is "too long"? Don Pianta's requirement for 9 sources pales in comparison. I think most users here just aren't used to pages with a lot of references because most of them don't need so many. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:23, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

I do quite like having the list of unsourced names as it makes it easier to keep track of which pages we need to add citations to without having to manually edit in [reference needed] or possibly missing some. As for the citations themselves, I've noticed Apikachu68 just moving the citation to the new section of the template, retaining the references section, so that could always be an option here. Or maybe a hover could be added to the game name to show the quote, for situations like TTYD characters? I feel like there can be flexibility here, and what sources are appropriate / examples of different kinds beyond just game name should be better explained in the template page. Put simply, I like sources being a part of the template (also increases readability slightly imo), and it does not necessarily mean the reference section can't also be used. Technetium (talk) 13:30, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

I do like that Apikachu68 kept the citation intact, but at that point I don't see why the citation that's only 3-4 characters needs an entire table column to itself instead of being attached to what it's a source for (which is standard practice across the rest of the wiki). -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:37, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

I agree with the points raised by @Waluigi Time. Additionally, the integration of this column and how it has been applied (again, with Don Pianta as a good example) fails to address the core purpose of the proposal that recently passed. It takes very little effort for someone to assign a game to a made-up or machine-translated a name. A proper citation takes more effort.

As someone currently involved with academia, I frankly do not see a substantive concern with "overciting." Citations are examples of our editorial diligence and provide the tools necessary for readers to verify this information on their own. Even if readers choose not to do so, simply having those pathways available passively strengthens the perception of the wiki as trustworthy reference material. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:37, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

Don Pianta's foreign name section only name-drops TTYD as a source, which is a long-established practice on this wiki. My entire understanding of that proposal is that every single non-English name would instead require a screenshot, video, or specific passage of text within that game to attest it; quote:
"Note that for these citations, using text / quotes is just as valid as including a link or image."
That wasn't properly enacted with Don Pianta, so what was even the point of the proposal, then? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:44, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

I envisioned what is currently employed for Octoomba, where names are just cited normally. From my understanding, adding this source column and just enabling the integration of a game's name in it was not part of the proposal's desired outcome. - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:01, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

While I did suggest the idea last night, I was expecting discussion on what it would look like before anything was implemented, and it was not a part of the proposal. Technetium (talk) 14:06, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

Actually, I don't think this new parameter is a bad idea at all! I just don't think its content should be displayed in a separate column, but appended to the name in its corresponding column, like "グンバ (Super Mario Bros. film)" here. As WT has already stated, having so many "?" cells on the right is kind of obnoxious. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:22, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

I do not mind having a dedicated column for game releases, but I think there may be competing mindsets with why something like (Super Mario Bros.) is integrated. I personally have only integrated game titles like that to convey that a cited name is only associated with that particular release. Some subjects, particularly enemies and items, have had various names throughout history and clarifying to readers that some names have seen more limited use than others is helpful. But that in itself is not a citation, or at least I have never used it as such. It lacks the tools necessary to make it trustworthy and verifiable in citing something that way. - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:36, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

I have the exact same mindset, I just think the "Src" parameter can be used to automate the implementation of <small>[source]</small> syntax within the Foreign names template. The content of this parameter doesn't need to be automatically formatted like an academic citation, though such citations can be added within this parameter if someone so wishes. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:49, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

About the Source section.

I saw a mini game in Mario Party 3 and they added a Source section. What's that for, I wonder?
The preceding unsigned comment was added by SilverBros1983 (talk).

Seems they updated the template as I discussed above. Technetium (talk) 12:27, August 27, 2024 (EDT)

Game specification

I've noticed a troubling trend of people trying to put the game identifiers beside the names in the middle rather than the descriptions on the right. This looks terrible - it stretches it horizontally in an awkward, inconsistent manner, leaving large amounts of blank space between the names and descriptions of rows that lack it. The name and description should be right next to each other for easy reading, and as such the game identifier should be all the way to the right. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:26, August 28, 2024 (EDT)

Please remove the "[?]" from the template, I am begging you

I am begging you all on my knees. In addition to it making the entire wiki look completely unprofessional and like we just made up everything on almost every page, it was also insult to injury that filling out the new "Notes" cells doesn't remove the "[?]" boxes. No one are going to look at a page with this kind of section (Image on the right) and think "This wiki seems very professional and an authority on the franchise". This situation is an absolute total disaster. DandelionSprout (talk) 12:22, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I agree it looks horrible, but this is unfortunately the consensus. The proposal concerning citations for names in other languages stated that "Unsourced names will [...] have the [citation needed] notice added." 15 people voted for this nonsense, one even calling it a "no-brainer". -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:27, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

For character names I felt it was something I could work with if need be, but for pages that are specifically about singular levels, minigames, or microgames the current implementation is absolutely psychotic. DandelionSprout (talk) 12:30, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

It is what it is. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:33, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I am NOT giving up on overturning this crap. I am not going to manually mass-fill some circa 1,100 WarioWare microgames' pages one at a time with simply "In-game name" for every row. I am NOT okay with almost any of this. DandelionSprout (talk) 12:35, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

Please keep your cool. I don't like the status quo either, but it's not the end of the world. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:42, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

As the person who started that proposal, I just want to say some things. First, I would appreciate it if you do not continue indirectly calling the people who were in support of this stupid for doing so. Maybe this was not intentional, but mentioning the people who voted for it is not necessary in this discussion, and I don't want people getting angry at each other over this. Second, you don't have to add the citations if you don't want to. No one is making you specifically do it. Third, "in-game name" is not enough for the citations here, as the thinking is that it can still be faked (not that I believe the majority of editors, including you, would fake that, but there is always the chance of someone editing in bad faith with it being difficult for other editors to confirm the accuracy). As I've said before, you do not have to be the person to add citations if you do not want to. And lastly, feel free to make a new proposal regarding all of this once 4 weeks have passed since this proposal passed, on around September 22nd. I would be happy to discuss how things are going currently and what changes could be made. Technetium (talk) 12:45, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

@DandelionSprout I know you are upset, and you specifically have put a lot of effort into the foreign names on the wiki, which is deeply appreciated. It is disheartening to see a project one put a lot of effort into have things done to it without one's involvement. I also agree that the original proposal would have benefited from laying out an infrastructural suggestion. However, and I ask this earnestly, isn't the [?] symbol highlighting a problem that exists whether it is displayed in this template or not? My bias comes from the fact that I am in academic right now, but from my view, the lack of citations is what contributes to the perceived lack of professionalisms.

@Koopa con Carne please be courteous to your fellow users. No one supported the original proposal to give other users a hard time. The issues raised were substantive. - Nintendo101 (talk) 12:56, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

The points may have been substantive, the implementation proposed and enacted does more damage than good. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:05, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

Drama aside, I do agree that mass adding citation needed thingies to every single NIOL is overkill, and I would have opposed the proposal had I been paying attention at the time. If possible, it could be programmed so the "[?]" symbols only appear if there's a reference or [citation needed] after the bolded name at the beginning of the article; if the English name needs a cite, it's natural to assume the foreign names need them too. However, if the English name is easily accessible in-game and therefore doesn't need a cite, that probably also applies to the foreign names, barring some weird exceptions. On top of all that, is anyone actually going to want to go through thousands of articles, look up foreign language videos or whatever to get sources for the foreign names, and write properly formatted citations for every single solitary one of them? That would take a metric crapton of time and effort, and I'm skeptical that anyone actually wants to put themselves through that giant mountain of tedium. 13:43, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I agree the implementation of the proposal has been mixed. How would you recommend we proceed? I personally remain most interested in a citation policy for enemies, places, items, objects, and characters, but I think it is less necessary for things like physical video games, modes, minigames, and extremely recurring characters like Mario or Donkey Kong. It may also not be necessary for subjects that debuted in the Nintendo Switch-era onward due to the accessibility of alternative languages, which would include things like NPCs from Princess Peach Showtime! - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:47, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I support going forward with the entrenched, tried-and-true practices the wiki had prior to the proposal's passing. Sources should generally only be cited when they are obscure or volatile, but can safely forgo any explicit mention when concerning names shown or disseminated plainly in a work. Being a human- and community-driven encyclopedia, mistakes and falsehoods are bound to occur, and the best remedy against those errors is to stay vigilant and nip them. A total and drastic makeover, especially one as controversial as this one, begets a lot of other problems, which renders it an improper solution to this ever-waging battle against misinformation. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:10, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I get what you are saying. Personally, even as someone who supported the proposal, I was unsure why we needed an infrastructural overhaul to execute it, and I do not think that is necessarily what @Technetium (who is welcomed to clarify that himself if he wishes) or other users had in mind. I envisioned foreign names just being cited the same way we cite material in the body paragraphs, with the actual result of the proposal being more like a policy revision where users are explicitly encouraged to cite foreign names - putting words to what you more or less describe. Users would be encouraged to act on it as they come across uncited foreign names.

But that is me, and others are welcomed to think differently. But regardless, I probably should scrutinized the original proposal a bit better, because it seems like some users, both in support and opposition, had different expectations with what would happen when it was executed. - Nintendo101 (talk) 14:31, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I definitely did not think through this fully when I made the proposal (which is 100% my bad and I should've waited to make it), and I just suggested maybe doing something with the template afterwards only for changes to be put in place without any discussion (which I was aiming to start with my message above). I do admittedly like the template changes because it tracks which pages need specifically name citations. But I can also see how users adding citations whenever they stumble across a page without them and ditching all this extra stuff could be a better idea. I do want a tag for any edits adding new names without citations, though, as my hope was that any new names added would be cited by the original editor. Technetium (talk) 14:35, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I can help draft an addendum that will iron out exceptions that should help reduce clutter and unintentional pedantic applications and add extra clarifications closer to the proposal's intent (such as excluding names in Latin languages (ie Mario/Yoshi/Luigi/Wario in French, unless there are exceptions found like Peach being called "Kanttarelli" in Finnish Super Mario Bros.), retroactive addition of the templates to older revisions, etc.) Next time, however, you should have drafted a proposal page in your sandbox and asked other users for feedback before enacting it, it's quite a drastic change from the status quo. Ray Trace^(T|C) 18:07, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

@DandelionSprout That was added in response to a democratically passed proposal. I'm not sure if someone else said, but if you want it overturned so badly, wait until like the end of September to make another proposal. I don't think it's that bad, to be honest. It may just take time getting used to. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:13, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I think they are well aware of that proposal, given they were among the opposers. rend (talk) (edits) 20:35, September 6, 2024 (EDT)

I missed the name citation proposal, and I just want to ask, how is this supposed to work exactly? For example, I have a number of edits adding Portuguese names for Mario & Luigi enemies, which I got from my copies of the games. What am I even supposed to cite there? "'Sonomelo' in-game text, [game title]"? Why does that need a citation in the first place? Or would that need an image to prove that that is indeed the name? Should I have taken a picture of my 3DS every time an enemy name is on screen? I don't get it. Blinker (talk) 08:45, September 8, 2024 (EDT)

@Blinker citing "in-game" would be fine in those cases. A screenshot is not necessary. The proposal was integrated as a check to ensure folks are not inventing names, which has happened and is difficult to catch. Unlike Mario & Luigi, most games do not have bestiaries, so for enemies like Rocto, which has not been name-dropped in any game and appeared only twice in pre-Nintendo Switch games where it was not easy to compare languages in one release, it is not at all clear where the uncited names come from. Folks do good work around here, but it is a helpful courtesy to other users and strengthens the reliability of the site to include citations for difficult to verify information. - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:12, September 8, 2024 (EDT)

Simply saying "name is found in-game" isn't really a solution against fake names, though. Worse yet: anyone can add a fake name, cite a game as a source, and others would take the source at face value. People vigilant enough to spot deceptions will question them whether there's a specious "in-game name" citation or not.
Note that I myself have namedropped game titles to cite names, but I've only done so for the particularly-difficult-to-find ones, though in hindsight I should have added more specificity (e.g. for those Mario Kart elements, stating something along the lines of "as shown in object actions"). -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:20, September 8, 2024 (EDT), edited Koopa con Carne (talk) 17:24, September 8, 2024 (EDT)

That's fair. I agree it's not great, but I do generally think even putting a small barrier of entry like requiring a citation is enough to deter most bad actors. I've at least seen it work off of Mario Wiki. It'd be nice if there was some sort of "warning" if a new user or someone with just an IP address was adding a new name without a citation. Folks with a genuine name would be reminded to cite the material they are referencing, whereas bad actors would not feel it is worth the trouble. But I don't know if that would be technically feasible.

For in-game citations, I generally like adding the sentence a subject is mentioned in game, or at least the scenario where a named subject is encountered. Like the chapter title, or the location of the map where an enemy is encountered in something like Mario & Luigi. For mobile games, I have cited the file directory for names, like I did for Octoomba. That would provide something more specific as reference for viewers and other editors, rather than vaguely gesturing to the game at large.

I'm sorry this has been frustrating for some folks. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:48, September 8, 2024 (EDT)