Talk:Super Smash Bros. (series)

You can's just copy to wikipedia site. There are templates and categories that do not apply to the Mario Wiki. --Son of Suns 18:33, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Normally, I'd clear the page with a note about plagiarism. But, this article has been here for a while. I'll leave it to community vote. Change it or delete it and start anew? -- Ghost Jam 20:24, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Been here awhile? Check the history, buddy. 'Twas made today. --DarkInsanity (talk)

Oops, you are correct. I looked at the page and was thinking about the Super Smash Bros. page. My mistake. -- Ghost Jam 23:27, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I think we should try to change any article that has been directly copied from Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a good resource. In fact, I use it all the time to help me write my articles. However, I do not copy the articles word for word. What's the point of having a Mario Wiki if you can find the exact same information on Wikipedia. The same applies to the other articles LuigiAD has been working on. I think the new Wii game articles need to be rewritten by a member of the Mario Wiki community. Heck, I'll even rewrite them. Game articles are not my strong suit but it would be better than copying. --Son of Suns 21:33, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

My thoughts on the issue exactly. When I made the Nintendo 64 page, I had used the Wikipedia as a source for information, but I had wrote my own article. Directly copying Wikipedia pages is either a sign of laziness, or just wanting to get the pages full. Makes me sick! --DarkInsanity (talk)

Luigi

where did you get that Luigi is in Brawl?

The MissingLinkHmmm...

Purpose of this page

What's the purpose of this page? It does not offer any information about what the series is about, only a random list of characters, items and locations, comparable to that of the PipeProject. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 16:49, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

Yah, maybe this has gotta to go.Knife (talk) 14:42, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

Items

As with the characters' table, maybe we should do a similar one with the items?  Caps Lock LORD 06:29, 17 June 2007 (EDT)

This page looks so useless to me. When you didn't know what the Smash Bros. series was, what would this page tell you? Nothing. It's just a random, unencyclopedic list (as discussed above). I don't think we need any more tables. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 06:31, 17 June 2007 (EDT)

Yah, maybe this has gotta to go.Knife (talk) 22:47, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Stage Music

Should we state on the stage articles what music plays on the stage? My Bloody Valentine

In Melee it wasn't important except for those with a music not from the same series as the stage. For Brawl, we should wait until the game is released to see how many different music tracks there really are. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 07:35, 30 September 2007 (EDT)

Dark Link??

Where was he seen? Dark Link doesn't mean a dark costume for Link, but rather Dark Link, the character who is completely black. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 10:57, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

The REAL Dark Link is an alternate cosume in Brawl.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gowser (talk).

That doesn't make him a non-playable character. On the contrary. He has no place on this page. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 14:16, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

Entrances

Should we create page on character entrances, seeing that they'll return in Brawl? --Trogga 04:10, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

Finally, first good idea I've heard all Month. You have officially made me happier to be on the Wiki (This is NOT sarcasm, contrary to popular belief). However, at this moment, I would say mention their Super Smash Bros. entrances on the characters articles, no need to make a seperate article. As for the Super Smash Bros. Brawl entrances, wait a little while, OK? My Bloody Valentine

What's an "entrance"? - Cobold (talk · contribs) 07:35, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

How the characters appear during a battle in the game (Mario comes out of a Warp Pipe, etc.) -- Sir Grodus

Well, you can put a note on the characters' pages. More useful than emblems, anyways. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 07:45, 17 October 2007 (EDT) P.S., Pokémon DP: Did you read my comment on emblems on the PP talk?

Giga Bowser: Not Confirmed

Why is Giga Bowser listed as returning as non-playable in Brawl? Dark Link was removed because he is now "playable". (see this. --Gowser 09:41, 17 November 2007 (EST)

Maybe

Hey maybe the artical is just there as a shortcut page, I mean just think about it. User:Gamer2.1

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS

We had Super Mario article when there was only a mention about it by Miyamoto, why don't we have one for SSB(WU3DS)? SWFlash

I was about to ask the same thing myself. Wikipedia has an article now. The Magikrazy. BTW, Nintendo has been thinking of putting in Capcom characters (Mega Man? Ryu?). In the meantime, I will check Halopedia, our partner, for articles on Halo 4, 5 and 6.

I just thinking that shall we create a separate article of the upcoming Smash Bros. game for the Wii U and 3DS? User:McAusten! · talk to me · my edits 17:42, 14 December 2011 (EST)

Smash Bros. Universe

Is this real?: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/319665/smash-bros-universe-named-in-leaked-document/

It sure looks real and the name is fitting, as the "U" has the Wii U logo User:MarioMaster720

Anyone??? User:MarioMaster720

It is my understanding that we are waiting for some sort of official confirmation on, well, anything in particular, before actually adding info on a new Smash Bros game to the wiki. Just like we didn't have an article on the Wii U before Nintendo announced it at E3, even though there were plenty of rumors circling around. Bop1996 _(Talk)

Yeah, but the whole point is that this might be a confirmation! I think that it is real, but what do you think? The question is: Do you think that it's real? User:MarioMaster720

I would not consider it official confirmation that the game is real at this point. Bop1996 _(Talk)

Super Smash Bros. 4

Could someone create this article & then move it when the actual name comes out?

Hi! I'm Electrical Bowser jr.!

We did that before several times. The results were always the same; deleted. Let us wait a bit longer.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 00:37, 21 August 2012 (EDT)

Simply No. There is no official title yet and very few things confirmed. In this Wiki there are rules that make this site particular and therefore don't allow the creation of articles with speculative or poorly-confirmed content, while others, like Smashwiki, allow the creation of an article for it. ¢oincoll€ctor

Nintendogs

Nintendogs makes an appearance as an assist trophy in ssbb. There's no emblem for it though but he must be included. What shall we do ? JackpotJordan 09:03, 30 September 2012 (EDT)

We don't have any other assist trophies. Why is this one special? LuigiBlubber

Well, this particular one came into my head. Having think about it, The Legendary Starfy should be mentioned as well. If we create paragraphs for series like Animal Crossing and DS just because there's one stage representing it, we should create these as well. So are you in or what ? JackpotJordan 11:35, 30 September 2012 (EDT)

The only series currently represented are those with characters and stages, Nintendogs has neither. Leave that to SmashWiki. Toast ltimatum 11:45, 30 September 2012 (EDT)

Ok then its just that I though that if we were to do the job, we might as well do it in full that's why. JackpotJordan 12:00, 30 September 2012 (EDT)

Tier List

Do you think we should add the current tier lists to the Super Mario Wiki? ilovededede 19:38, 24 January 2013 (PST)

Being a Mario Wiki, not the SmashWiki, I think we should keep details as close to Mario as we can, and not go into Smash-specifics which the SmashWiki covers. Toast ltimatum 12:11, 26 January 2013 (EST)

Ridley

Ridley is a cameo in the first one http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/File:Sbshot_ridley.jpg 99.244.181.130 13:24, 19 April 2013 (EDT)

Alternate Costumes

Can we get a visual chart for the alternate costumes for the Brawlers, much like how Bulbapedia does for the Pokemon characters, at least for the Mario, Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong Characters? That'd be great. Jdrawer (talk) 18:13, 27 September 2013 (EDT)

I think we should do it for all characters, not just the Mario one, as we cover nonMario stuff in greater detail than most other wikis cover Mario content. Ray Trace^(T|C) 18:30, 27 September 2013 (EDT)

Ridley in the 4th installment

On the Non-playable Characters subsection, Ridley is marked as confirmed for the 4th installment. Can someone back this up with some reference?
Banon (talk · edits) 19:22, 23 August 2014 (EDT)

Mewtwo DLC

With the confirmation that Mewtwo will indeed be in Smash 3DS/Wii U, it should be included in both the big character-by-game chart and the Pokemon section.

Amiibo Character Unlock

Does anyone know if scanning an amiibo for a character that is locked on a new copy of Smash Bros for WiiU & 3DS would unlock that character for actual play? - Cubeguy(talk)

Huh, I'm not sure anyone has tried it yet. Wario is so far the only released unlockable, but that's on 3DS. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 14:04, 21 June 2015 (EDT)

Yeah i was surprised when i was just sitting there playing the game and then it just hit me, why has no one tried it? - Cubeguy(talk)

I'm just going to ask this here...

Why is there an entire database of Smash Bros. content on this wiki? I know it's not quite as comprehensive as SmashWiki but, despite clarifying on this very page that it's not a Mario game, you cover most of the details as if it is (and also have it listed as a Mario game on List of games but I digress). You even have a page for every Poké Ball Pokémon. I feel that's unnecessary for a Mario wiki. Don't get me wrong, I applaud you for all the work you've done with it. But I kind of feel it's unnecessary with SmashWiki being a thing. You can just link to their site. You can give each of the games and the series itself a page but I don't think pages for every item, Poké Ball Pokémon, stage, and them some is needed. On the aforementioned List of games I noticed that Minecraft has its own page but the developer links are outsourced to Wikipedia. I feel it should similarly just link to SmashWiki for all the other non-Mario related Smash stuff.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone; I'm just putting my thoughts out there. (also first edit on this wiki xp) Aykrivwassup (talk) 20:30, 3 May 2018 (EDT)

A proposal has (quite unfortunately) passed to remove much of it, actually, it just hasn't been fully-implemented yet. As for why we had it in the first place, because it's heavily-derivative of the Mario franchise, particularly in the name structure. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:34, 3 May 2018 (EDT)

I understand that Mario is a major factor of it, but of course that's the case. Mario is Nintendo's cash cow; why wouldn't he be a sizable part of a Nintendo crossover fighter. That said, to be honest it could be argued that Smash derives more from Kirby than Mario. Masahiro Sakurai created both, though, so I suppose that is natural, but still. (Edit: Plus, as I said, it has its own NIWA wiki.) Anyway like I said that's just my opinion. Thank you for your answer though! It is much appreciated. Aykrivwassup (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2018 (EDT)

And it's my opinion that Smashwiki is too jargony-diehard-oriented (how is a ten-year old supposed to know what a "nerf" is?), but that's neither here norr there. Anyway, there were no Kirby enemies in Brawl barring King Dedede's moveset, while Mario enemies were common, and more assets seem to be taken from Mario in other respects as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2018 (EDT)

Fair enough. I mean there's always Google, and SmashWiki even has its own pages on those terms but like you said it's not that important. Thanks again for the response!
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aykrivwassup (talk).

Google wouldn't probably mostly show results for the toy gun company to be honest.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:44, 4 May 2018 (EDT)

About time someone mentioned this; I'm sick of seeing all this Smash content, as if Smash is some kind of Mario spinoff. - AwdryFan1997

Is there a current stance on it? I think there have been a bunch of proposals recently. --Megatron (talk) 13:26, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

Persona

...music from Persona 4 and Persona 3

Is there a particular reason 4 is first? RickTommy (talk) 00:32, October 1, 2019 (EDT)

Probably not. IMO you can just reorder if it you want and I doubt there'll be much objection. -- Lord G. matters. 01:01, October 1, 2019 (EDT)

Chart Proposal: Add Roster Numbers to the Playable Characters Chart

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Don't add 1-5
I am doing a chart proposal for the playable characters in this article. I know that we have a bunch of playable characters that are in the entire Super Smash Bros. series including Super Smash Bros. Ultimate that are getting close to less than 100 as of right now. Since Ultimate managed to give roster numbers for every playable fighters in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, I think by adding the roster number into the chart would help the readers since we definitely know which characters by which number they appear since the checkmarks and Xs were used for the all the games and are only listed in alphabetical order instead of organized by the roster order.

This is my proposal for adding the roster numbers into the chart:

Character name	Super Smash Bros.	Super Smash Bros. Melee	Super Smash Bros. Brawl	Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U	Super Smash Bros. Ultimate	Series	Roster Number
Banjo & Kazooie					(DLC)	Banjo-Kazooie series	73
Bayonetta				(DLC)		Bayonetta series	63
Bowser						Mario series	14
Bowser Jr. and Koopalings						Mario series	58
Byleth					(DLC)	Fire Emblem series	75
Captain Falcon						F-Zero series	11
Charizard						Pokémon series	35
Chrom						Fire Emblem series	25e
Cloud				(DLC)		Final Fantasy series	61
Corrin				(DLC)		Fire Emblem series	62
Daisy						Mario series	13e
Dark Pit						Kid Icarus series	28e
Dark Samus						Metroid series	04e
Diddy Kong						Donkey Kong series	36
Dr. Mario						Mario series	18
Donkey Kong						Donkey Kong series	02
Duck Hunt						Duck Hunt series	59
Falco						Star Fox series	20
Fox						Star Fox series	07
Ganondorf						The Legend of Zelda series	23
Greninja						Pokémon series	50
Hero					(DLC)	Dragon Quest series	72
Ice Climbers						Ice Climber	15
Ike						Fire Emblem series	32
Incineroar						Pokémon series	69
Inkling						Splatoon series	64
Isabelle						Animal Crossing series	68
Ivysaur						Pokémon series	34
Jigglypuff						Pokémon series	12
Joker					(DLC)	Persona series	71
Ken						Street Fighter series	60e
King Dedede						Kirby series	39
King K. Rool						Donkey Kong series	67
Kirby						Kirby series	06
Link						The Legend of Zelda series	03
Little Mac						Punch-Out!! series	49
Lucario						Pokémon series	41
Lucas				(DLC)		EarthBound series	37
Lucina						Fire Emblem series	21e
Luigi						Mario series	09
Mario						Mario series	01
Marth						Fire Emblem series	21
Mega Man						Mega Man series	46
Meta Knight						Kirby series	27
Mewtwo				(DLC)		Pokémon series	24
Mii Fighters						Super Smash Bros. series	51-53
Min Min					(DLC)	ARMS	76
Mr. Game & Watch						Game & Watch series	26
Ness						EarthBound series	10
Olimar and Alph			1			Pikmin series	40
Pac-Man						Pac-Man series	55
Palutena						Kid Icarus series	54
Peach						Mario series	13
Pichu						Pokémon series	19
Pikachu						Pokémon series	08
Piranha Plant					(DLC)	Mario series	70
Pit						Kid Icarus series	28
Pokémon Trainer						Pokémon series	33-35
Richter						Castlevania series	66e
Ridley						Metroid series	65
R.O.B.						Robot series	42
Robin						Fire Emblem series	56
Rosalina & Luma						Mario series	48
Roy				(DLC)		Fire Emblem series	25
Ryu				(DLC)		Street Fighter series	60
Samus						Metroid series	04
Sheik						The Legend of Zelda series	16
Shulk						Xenoblade Chronicles series	57
Simon						Castlevania series	66
Snake						Metal Gear series	31
Sonic						Sonic the Hedgehog series	38
Squirtle						Pokémon series	33
Steve, Alex, Zombie, and Enderman					(DLC)	Minecraft series	77
Terry					(DLC)	Fatal Fury series	74
Toon Link						The Legend of Zelda series	43
Villager						Animal Crossing series	45
Wario						Wario series	30
Wii Fit Trainer						Wii Fit series	47
Wolf						Star Fox series	44
Yoshi						Yoshi series	05
Young Link						The Legend of Zelda series	22
Zelda						The Legend of Zelda series	17
Zero Suit Samus						Metroid series	29

King Marth 64 (talk) 16:16, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

Proposer: King Marth 64 (talk)
Deadline: October 17, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. King Marth 64 (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

1. Scrooge200 (talk) This seems to be entirely Ultimate-based information. I'd rather have it just go on Ultimate's page.
2. Archivist Toadette (talk) That can go on SmashWiki.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Scrooge, this only applies to one game so far.
4. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.
5. 1337star (talk) This idea isn't future-proofed. What would we do if/when the next Smash game introduces new characters but doesn't use Ultimate's roster numbers?

Comments

I quickly checked Smash Wiki, and they decided not to use the numbers except for in the introductions of their Smash Ultimate character articles. Thus, I don't think this proposal can be opposed on the basis of it belonging on Smash Wiki. (This talk section states this directly, linking to this talk section, which shows the debate but not a decision. I'm assuming that a decision was reached on another page somewhere.) Salmancer (talk) 20:27, October 3, 2020 (EDT)

Current stance on Smash content on MarioWiki?

What's the current stance on whether to add/remove/edit/change all the Smash information on this wiki? I've seen quite a few proposals/discussions but nothing conclusive. I think we're well past the period where Smash was considered a Mario spinoff by some people, and none of the other Nintendo or NIWA wikis do the same. --Megatron (talk) 13:29, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

The most recent proposal on it ended in favor of keeping our current coverage the same. Also, we don't do things just because other wikis do or don't do them a certain way. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:35, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

Understood, I think that what the wiki already does, namely referring to Smash as "Mario-related media" rather than "Mario series" and clearly stating that it's not a Mario spinoff, may do the job. For reference, Serebii (the most popular Pokémon fansite) also has a page on every Smash fighter and it's weird af, so I guess it is a case of different sites doing their own thing. Do you have a link to the proposal, though? I'm interested in reading what people had to say. --Megatron (talk) 13:54, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

Sure, here it is. It's a bit of a long read, Smash coverage is a pretty heated topic around here. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 14:00, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

Thanks, I think I had a look at it but I think it excluded any decisions on the fighter pages themselves. Though imo I think the wiki is doing a good job already of establishing that Smash is not a Mario spinoff (especially compared to how it used to be), but like I said on the board maybe more can be done too? I'm thinking maybe an "external crossovers" category that covers any crossovers that aren't part of the Mario franchise or its true spinoffs (not just Smash but also Fortune Street, Captain N, etc.) --Megatron (talk) 14:05, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

Yeah, going all-or-nothing in a proposal like this doesn't end well so usually they're limited to trimming only certain parts of Smash coverage. I assume that if this proposal had passed then other aspects of the series would've been re-assessed at a later time. You could start a proposal about your external crossovers idea if you want. Also, you might be interested in reading MarioWiki:Coverage which explains how we handle stuff like this. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 14:17, July 15, 2021 (EDT)

Idea for compromise between viewpoints on coverage

"Everything gets a page" and "only directly Mario-based things should be mentioned at all" are two radical extremes, both of which cause more harm than good. Due to this, I have come up with a way that should satisfy all (non-radical) opinions on the matter: namely, everything gets equal mention on the games' pages (as we do with actual Mario games) while only Mario stuff gets individualized pages. For example, Jigglypuff has no reason to have a page on this wiki, but it would be foolish to not list Jigglypuff in the game pages' "characters" sections. We've already gotten rid of the stuff we outright have no reason to get (like that silly article on Snake's cardboard box, separate articles for random Smash Run enemies, etc), so currently, we more just need to rearrange what remains in a coherent manner, since the current method veers toward awkward. I've pitched this before in the comments of another proposal, and it got a lot of approval, so when the time is right, I'm going to make a full proposal on it:
I have thought long and hard about the "proper" way for us to cover Super Smash Bros. in a way that both respects the desire to focus primarily on Super Mario elements while also respecting the desire to not leave anything uncovered. As such, the main way to do this is to give pages only to Super Mario elements, whilst covering everything else on the pages for the individual Super Smash Bros. games; unless otherwise stated, they will instead link to other wikis, be if the base series' wiki or SmashWiki. For instance, Link will remain an internal link (no pun intended) because he's crossed over otherwise, Ganondorf will link to Zeldawiki because he hasn't. Link's moves (originating from the Legend of Zelda series) will link to Zeldawiki, while Ganondorf's moves (original moves due to being based on Captain Falcon's moves) will link to Smashwiki.
Other specific aspects of thism which for the most part make the game pages' internal coverage be more consistent with how we handle other games':

1. Merge the "List of items in Smash" page to the games entirely, turning that into a redirect to a section on the series page. That page's existence has always bothered me, and I'm in the "keep as much as reasonable" camp.
2. Merge the "enemies" pages to their respective game - they're already structured like any other game's enemy tables anyway. These pages also always bothered me.
3. Merge the "Subspace Army" and "Subspace Stages" lists to each other to recreate a watered-down version of the Subspace Emissary page (to split from the Brawl page due to length and being exclusive to that campaign); it would also include a table for characters describing their role in said campaign, as well as objects/items found exclusively in it (Trophy Stands, the funny boxes, the metallic barrel cannons, etc) - once again, all except Mario-derived things will link elsewhere (mostly to Smashwiki in this case).
4. Section each game akin to how I had the SSB64 page as of this edit, including sections for Pokemon, Assist Trophies, Bosses, etc., and links to other wikis for subjects that we don't need pages on. Other sections can be added as needed.
5. Leave the lists for fighters, stages, and (series-wide) bosses alone (for now at least), as they make more sense to have a series-wide representation on here (similar to the fighters) in some capacity than the items or enemies. Also, you never know when one of them is going to cross over otherwise, like Villager, Isabelle, and Inkling suddenly joining Mario Kart, so it's good to keep that around in case a split is deemed necessary from something like that happening down the line.
6. Have image galleries cover everything that can reasonably be included in an image gallery for the game, regardless of origin. This includes artwork, sprites, models, screenshots, etc, for any subject - yes, including Pokemon, so that will unfortunately have to undo that one proposal I originally brought this plan up in the comments of in order to work fully. Just like on the game pages, the labels will link to other sites as needed.
7. Leave Stickers and Spirits alone, their pages are too large to merge and are fine as they are for the reasons that opposition to deleting them historically has brought up.
8. Keep trophy and assist trophy pages covering only Mario things, leave the remainder in the game gallery.

People may wonder, "What about Nintendo Land and NES Remix? Why don't they get this level of coverage?" It's simple, really: In Smash, you can have Mario throw a Deku Nut at Ridley in Lumiose City and nobody bats an eye at how absurd that situation is. In those other games, the different representations are very much split apart; all Mario-related stuff is within a few minigames that do not overlap whatsoever with any of the other ones. In Nintendo Land, you cannot have Mario fighting Ridley in the Lost Woods, despite (representations of) all of those things appearing in the game. In Smash, anyone can interact with anything, regardless of origin, so Mario characters can interact with anything, and anyone can interact with Mario things. That's why Smash, the melting pot it is, gets more focus than Nintendo Land, where everything's more of a side dish.
Anyways, questions? Concerns? Comments? Generalized statements of support or opposition? Does anyone have an alternate (non-radical) idea? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:22, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

I like this idea. I can agree to not giving everything in Smash an article, but, as I stated on the recent proposal surrounding the music articles, I'm not a fan of outright not covering this stuff. At least mentioning and covering these things in their respective Smash articles feels like a nice in between. Sure, we don't need a full article dedicated to a Killing Edge from Fire Emblem, but to just not make any mention of it simply because it's not Mario related? Point being, I can agree to this approach. Tails777 Talk to me!

Strong support. In general, covering the Smash Bros. series on this wiki similar to guest appearance seems to be the best option. If Super Smash Bros. for N64 was the only game in the series, covering it in full would be the best option, but Smash strays further away from being just a Nintendo crossover. Now it's a crossover between... pretty much everything in gaming. I would argue if Smash Ultimate was the only game in the series, this wiki would call it a guest appearance and there wouldn't ever be a need for this discussion. Axii (talk) 16:14, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

Just as before, and I will note this again, one of the pieces is trying to undo a proposal of mine that passed. What am I missing about the Poke Ball Pokemon's connections to Super Mario? I simply just don't see it. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:03, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

In the Super Smash Bros. games, Mario can: pick up a Poké Ball; throw a Poké Ball; receive damage from a Poké Ball; engage directly with the creatures contained (either in being the summoner or in being the recipient of their attacks); Ditto can physically transform into Mario; etc. The fact that those things can also occur for Sephiroth or Snake do not mitigate that fact.

I completely understand if you personally feel that is not substantive enough for coverage. I get it. But I think suggesting they have "nothing" to do with Super Mario is wholly accurate. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:13, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

That means they have something to do with Castlevania, Banjo-Kazooie, Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Street Fighter, so forth and so forth. There wouldn't be any of this arguing if SmashWiki handled their coverage in a way this wiki likes, since everyone would agree clearly on "it's not Super Mario; it's Smash Bros." Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:17, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

Is it not Super Mario simply because it is Super Smash Bros.? Is any crossover game not the sum of its parts? I think it comes down to what people want covered on Super Mario Wiki, and less about any self-imposition. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:22, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

Wikis are not divided solely by what they cover, but the community of editors interested in that topic. The fact that Smashwiki has such a vastly different community and writing standards is indeed related (that "buff" and "nerf" were used unironically in prose and headers and there were whole articles over real-world players last I checked is indicative of that) - and if as you said the exact same members were the editors there, then it wouldn't be a different community in the first place, making that somewhat moot. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:23, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

@Nintendo101 Yeah, so imagine if a Castlevania wiki had screenshots of all these Pokemon. Would that feel right or awkward? The interactive nature is the same as to Super Mario characters. I'm not trying to offend in any way when I say this, but if this wiki becomes a dumping grounds for unrelated content simply because we don't like how another wiki does it, that will affect the integrity of this wiki badly. I remember a proposal here for full Minecraft coverage. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:25, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

I know that wasn't directed at me, but consider that of the represented franchises, only Mario and allies, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Pokemon, Earthbound, and F-Zero have had representation in every Smash Bros. game - hence reason to have "all these" images, and of those, many were very token in the representation they got at the start. Mario is a notable outlier there in that it got a bunch from the very beginning. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:30, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

Okay, but I'm starting to make the point that if SmashWiki allowed the galleries and the wikitables you wouldn't fight so hard for the content to be kept on this wiki, so that's why there's all these excuses for keeping lists of Pokemon on a Super Mario wiki. They're not as notable as the items, i.e. the Poke Ball, which they're components of. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:34, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

I'd disagree they are "components" of the item. They're more a separate type of summoned NPC fighter that is intrinsically related to the item, that until the addition of the assist trophies, was an extremely unique aspect of the gameplay that bears explanation simply due to how different from the rest of it that system is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:38, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

I'm trying to not regurgitate the same points that I made before, but they are NPC fighters 100% representing Pokemon, whilst Assist Trophies have "melting pot" franchise representation. Super Mario RPG (talk) 18:44, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

Thing is, the article Super Smash Bros. does not describe the Super Mario series. It describes a crossover game. Therefore, we should describe what crosses over within the context of the game, not limit our scope to a myopic range around the Mario stuff. Itadaki Street DS is also not a Mario game in title or spirit, and we still list all the Square-Enix stuff found in it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:00, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

That is a fair question, and not at all offensive. I don't know how I would feel as a reader, but if the community at this hypothetical Castlevania Wiki wanted to cover it, then I think that would be fine. There is Castlevania material in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. I would probably find it odder if they had full coverage for a game like Super Bomberman R because there is a Simon Belmont Bomber - a character that is in fact not Simon Belmont, but a Bomberman character based on him. I don't believe I was involved in the Minecraft proposal you mentioned or I at least don't remember, but I understand it considering, for as far as I know, the Super Mario Mash-Up content are considered skins of Mario subjects and not the "real" articles.

But that is my personal perspective. Other folks are welcomed to feel differently and share their thoughts. What I think would be healthier for a discussion at large is to move away from imposing definitions on ourselves, appreciate that we are in fact human beings making curatorial choices on coverage, and have a more honest conversation about that. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:36, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

My personal viewpoint, philosophically but maybe not practically, is that... I don't think there's any sense in having an incomplete list, and I don't think "list of all Mario-related X" counts as a complete list. I think this proposal might be as close as we can get to lining up with that — minor stuff like trophies and spirits will still be out of line but I can't really think of a sensible way to fix that. I'm all in favor of it. Ahemtoday (talk) 21:03, August 31, 2024 (EDT)

Addendum to the list: I figured the "minigame" pages needed dealt with as well.

• Include the "minigame" stages (Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, Race to the Finish, Snag Trophies, Home Run Contest, Trophy Tussle, the Melee Adventure Mode stages) in the "list of stages debuting in [game]" articles. For ones like Targets, it would just explain how it worked and then have a gallery for the different layouts rather than describing each in detail. Said minigame pages should be merged to a section in the SSB series article covering the series' minigames. The Subspace Emissary stages will get a section with a {{main}} to the stage section of the Subspace Emissary article (detailed in an above point).
  

-Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:25, September 2, 2024 (EDT)

That merge sounds sensible, as long as they're in a separate heading.from the multiplayer stages. Also, how will we be handling the different Break the Targets layouts in this case? Listing them separately seems pointless, but the images have to go somewhere. I suppose we just have a gallery of each Break the Targets stage under the subheader? Ahemtoday (talk) 22:38, September 2, 2024 (EDT)

That's basically what I said. Not sure if a subheader is needed, but a gallery with labels for each layout (ie, characters for the first two games, difficulty for Brawl). But yes, they would be separated from the "multiplayer" stages, though for SSB, the three single-player-only battlefields should also probably be listed with the targets, platforms, and race stages. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:41, September 2, 2024 (EDT)

Oh, I just meant "under the Break the Targets header" — you wouldn't need a subheader underneath it for the gallery. ....in any case, do you think Adventure Mode stages are different enough in nature to be separate from the multiplayer and minigame stages? Subspace definitely is, so I have to wonder. Ahemtoday (talk) 23:00, September 2, 2024 (EDT)

Not quite sure, as I wouldn't consider them different from "Race to the Finish" which is treated roughly equal to Targets/Platforms/Trophies. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:22, September 2, 2024 (EDT)