Talk:Super Mario Sunshine

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Super Mario Sunshine article. It is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. Questions such as "Who is your favorite character/team/area in this game?" are not allowed and will be removed on sight. Please use the Mario Boards or our Discord server to talk about Super Mario Sunshine.

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Fruit

If you throw fruit at an enemy, don't they die? I haven 't played in a while, so I don't remember. Max2 (talk)

Nope. The fruit just bounces off. Phoenix Rider

OK. I just couldn't remember.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Max2 (talk).

Article Improvamabilitation

There are two things we should do to improve this article:

1. Find the final box art - the picture we have has a rating of "RP".

2. Use that template that we did in Super Mario 64's article that explained what had to be done in each Episode.

Sound good? Dunadunadunadunadunadunadunaduna DODOMAN!

Pretty good! The one problem is that the box art we have was the last electronically released by Nintendo! But, with some fine tuning (read: Microsoft Paint) we can make it more accurately reflect the final box art. Oh, and we should take out the command form from the glitches section as well. Stumpers! 21:14, 14 August 2007 (EDT)

That sounds good too. The only thing I mean by "final" box art is one with the E rating from ESRB. I'll get that Episodes template and fix the Glitch paragraph... (but not necessarily immediately :P) --Dodorino

Dodoman! The glitches section looks wonderful! Thanks for doing it! Stumpers! 19:26, 17 August 2007 (EDT)

If Ya Don't Mind

I found a glitch in Gelato Beach, and just about to add it. Minimariolover10

Notable Acts

Someone add a new quote for this and a Mario's Notable act section in this? IG Mario's notable act in the final stage is battling Bowser.(Super F22 Pilot 04:13, 22 November 2007 (EST))

Mini-Game Shines

I got all eight of the shines from every village, defeated Corona Mountain, got over 200 blue coins, both of the yellow birds, and a couple of mini-games, but I only came up with 119 shines. Can anyone tell me what I might be missing? If you have any ideas I'd appreciate it if you could leave them on my talk page. Glitchman (talk · contribs)

You're probably missing something in Delfino Plaza. Done both of the crate guy mini-games? Been thrown by that guy into the tower with the shine? Cleaned the bells? Gotten Yoshi over to that island with the lost dude (who is back on Delfino Plaza after the flood)? Stumpers! 21:22, 10 January 2008 (EST)

[Yoshitheawesome] Maybe yur missing the speed nozzle raceway as i call it. it's in that weird door thing behind the guards.

Noki Bay

Have you ever noticed that it's a mystery why the uncorking of the waterfall actualy stops some of Eely Mouth's (and partialy Gooper Blooper's pollution)?User:Petey

It is because of the fresh flowing water.-- More news from Shadow Yoshi.

Trivia

Some of the trivia on this page isn't really needed, such as "This game has the same abbreviation as Super Mario Strikers" (As I don't think that Nintendo has ever actually called either of the games that) And the mentioning of the debut of Toadsworth and Bowser Jr. isn't really needed, is it? HyperToad

It's here as well? I already removed the info from Super Mario Strikers. About the debuts I'm not really sure, better wait for other people's opinions. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 14:16, 23 January 2008 (EST)

ZOMG Trivia

I'm not gonna delete that new fact in teh Trivia section, that one about the game having a message about pollution...because it kind of has a point, but at the same time, I don't think it's necessary or Trivia-like or accurate.

Oh, and how does this game break the fourth wall exactly? Excuse me if I've missed something obvious...but I need to be reminded if I've forgotten.

Dom »» McTalk

After Bowser is defated, a Pianta in Delfino Plaza says: "The game is already finished ?!" (I'm not sure of the traduction, I have the French version.)

KOOPALMIER, TEH BEST(or not)

Yes, it is the same in the American Engish version... so since two versions do it, I bet the Japanese version did it as well. (P.S. Do you mean translation?) Stumpers! 14:26, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

Sorry, I'm French, and I'm not very good with English language.

KOOPALMIER, TEH BEST(or not)

You shouldn't be sorry - your English is great! You're doing much, much better than I do with other languages (I actually assumed that you were a native English speaker who had moved to France or a French-speaking part of Canada), so no one's going to judge! (Especially because we need more European users!) Stumpers! 10:18, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Test level???

Can someone PLEASE tell me if they have got to the test level because I dont believe it is real. HOW do you do an action replay and HOW do you get to the 'giant blob with shoes'?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shadow Yoshi (talk).

Sounds like forum talk. Please don't put this on article talk pages. Time Questions 06:58, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

What does that mean? I'm talking about this bit in the trivia, 'A Test Level is only accessible by use of an Action replay. This was a debugging level that the developers forgot to take out of the game. It is scattered in blocks with numbers, and there is also a giant blob-like creature with legs.'-- More news from Shadow Yoshi.

Things to add

Could we mabey add some audio. My bro wants the music for when you verse Wiggler Ahoy and I want the one from the red coin level in noki bay.-- More news from Shadow Yoshi.

We could do a lot of things...

This is a featured, but we could still spruce it up. Lolcats124 (talk)

And how? If you have any ideas, be bold and edit the article. Time Questions 07:57, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

Okay, I want answers...

Someone was messing with this article's gallery and attempted to repostion pictures in the wrong sections (not to mention changing some sub-headers around -- group pictures are NOT screenshots). Can anyone who was responsible for this explain themselves, please? --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 02:49, 13 November 2009 (EST)

I was only trying to fix the gallery because people were complaining about trivia and screenshots being in artwork...AND THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING TO HELP! I LOVED this game and I don't want it to be unfeautured. People shouldn't just sit around saying "unfeauture this article blahdeblahdeblah".-_- --FREAK ~Game Freak~ OUT!

Trivia

The thing about the talking.. can I have a video to it or something? It really bugs me for some reason
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by TimTamChimchar (talk).

Beta Elements

A picture on the beta element page shows Mario with a Green Yoshi in the Pianta Village right? It showed the Fruit tank empty, meaning that the Yoshi was turning Green, the only thing wrong was that it was at the daytime. AltoConcerto: Drifting Virtuoso. 22:27, November, 7, 2010

Trivia

Super Mario Sunshine isn't the only game to have extensice character voice acting. What about Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour when you taunt another player in multiplayer?

Tails777

Those are mainly one-liners; which don't really count. --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 20:23, 28 December 2010 (EST)

I'm pretty sure it still counts. It's still character voice acting no matter how long the lines are. Tails777 Talk to me!

A few things

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3t5wxcTToI&feature=related In this video of the Jap version the Nintendo logo is blue. I don't know about your game, but it's red in mine. This video also seems to disprove that thing about Mario and Toadsworth talking to each other. That might just be my speakers though so in that case, sorry.--TimTamChimchar 01:55, 29 January 2011 (EST) Well, yes, but that's not part of the main series, so it doesn't really count. TheDisneyGamer (talk) 15:34, 21 October 2015 (EDT)

False trivia

trivia says "It is the only 3D Mario game that does not have Goombas as enemies.", what about luigi's mansion? I'm my bro's bro.

Those Raccoons

Is there any official name for the raccoon people you give the Blue Coins to? Yoshiwaker 10:14, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

None AKAIK. our article on them use a conjectural name. --Glowsquid 10:17, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

Oh, I was just trying to find the article. Thanks! Yoshiwaker 11:17, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

MENTION

Should I mention that this happened sometime after the events of Mario 64? Gumball of the Stars (talk)

Yoshi?

What are the controls for Yoshi? - Red-CyanToad

That kind of talk is more appropriate for the forums than this article's talk page, unless the question is asked with the intent of improving the given article. Bop1996 _(Talk)

Trivia

sonic's invincibility theme have the same music of Delfino Plaza. I think it's remixed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKvZTzOiQes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw3eDb2RhyQ
and, dolphin in italian is delfino. i think it's not coincidence, because the island is dolphin-shaped.
Shell Mario

Yeah, no, I'm more than sure it's coincidence. Lord Grammaticus 14:47, 25 January 2012 (EST)

Test level: Action Replay Only? Really?

its gotta be possible to go to the test level without an AR. what about an emulator and whatnot? Pointy Stick Of Doom +99 (talk) 22:31, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Animal Crossing

There is a reference to this in Animal Crossing: New Leaf. While talking to Gulliver, he mentions Ricco Harbor, although I do realise all the current references are from Mario games, so sorry if I misunderstood that.--96.44.90.196 20:12, 17 April 2014 (EDT)

Sun sprite

I remember at one point there was a sprite of the sun on this page. It's not there anymore. What happened to it? Did using the image break a rule or something? And no, I do not mean an image of a Shine Sprite. I mean a sprite of the actual sun from this game. --J-Yoshi64 (talk) 14:22, 4 July 2014 (EDT)

Launch title

"It was the first main Mario series title not to be a launch title for its respective console." What about SMB3? 71.226.144.42 17:07, 16 May 2015 (EDT)

Should TCRF be credited for the regional differences somehow?

Seeing as they credit MarioWiki for things... --Hiccup (talk) 09:34, 19 December 2015 (EST)

can you establish a reasonable case for the current section being based on TCRF's? I checked TCRF's Sunshine pages for regional differences and the writing and formatting is different enough to pass off as original content. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:11, 19 December 2015 (EST)

Oh, I meant the "discovery", not the actual text. --Hiccup (talk) 14:25, 19 December 2015 (EST)

Pre-rendered cutsence

Can you add that this is the only main Mario game so far to have pre-rendered cutsences?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.127.38.51 (talk).

The cutscenes are not pre-rendered though, they're live rendered. Unless you count possibly the little TV screen with the Piantas advertising as possible, but that's not really a cutscene. Ray Trace^(T|C) 16:21, 4 August 2018 (EDT)

How'd you know they're live rendered?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.127.38.51 (talk).

The best way to tell is to play through an emulator and notice how the screenshot gets affected if you try adjusting the resolution. If you increase the resolution higher than intended aspect display, the models remain crisp if it's live-rendered. If it's pre-rendered, the screenshot would look bloated as if you took an image and resized it. After all, pre-rendered scenes are just a bunch of moving images (like in a movie) while live-rendering loads models, textures, animations, and so on. Do you understand the differences? Additionally, Dolphin Emulator provides a free-look (a hack that allows you to adjust the camera and explore the 3D environment), and it wouldn't be possible to view a scene with free-look if it's prerendered, because it's technically only a 2d image in-game. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 16:41, 4 August 2018 (EDT)

Wow! Saying they're pre-rendered cutsences is just a popular belief. But, why do many people believe they're pre-rendered cutsences?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.127.38.51 (talk).

I think it's because this game doesn't run at 60 frames.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 47.16.185.66 (talk).

Now I'm wondering how the cutscenes were replaced with random FMVs in the Games Repainted hack of it, if the originals were live rendered scene setups and not videos themselves.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:25, 15 September 2018 (EDT)

If they could replace the cutscenes with FMV then that makes it prerenderd (unless it's a video edit). Unless the cutscenes run at 60 fps and the game never runs smoother than 30 fps, then frame rate is irrelevant. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 01:19, 15 September 2018 (EDT)

A message about characters and enemies

The enemies are technically characters, so enemies should be a subsection of characters.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.66.205.68 (talk).

I disagree, it's better if enemies are completely seperated from playable characters and NPCs. Nightwicked Bowser

Promotional Preview CD

Check out this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ICuET4QLQ and add it accordingly because I don't know how. Also, I have a list of most of the mario games with physical demo versions and I have a list of the gamecube demo discs with mario on them. Do you want them? Bobster (talk) 08:23, March 28, 2021 (EDT)Bobster

Revisiting Delfino Airstrip

In the Courses section it says the following:

"Delfino Airstrip is the setting of the game's prologue and is available to visit via ferry after completing the "Father and Son Shine!" episode."

This is false, completing the "Father and Son Shine!" episode is not actually required to unlock the ferry to the Airstrip. All you have to do is enter and exit Corona Mountain, if you exit the level (and presumably also if you get a Game Over and get sent back to Delfino Plaza, but I haven't tested that) Delfino Plaza is no longer flooded and the ferry appears. Could someone please correct this? The page is locked and I don't have permission to edit it. Bolt Strike

Very minor change request

In the section where it talks about the 100% ending screen (at the very end of "Story" section), it says that the postcard depicts the characters in Hotel Delfino. While this is technically true, the photo actually appears to be taken in Casino Delfino. I think the article should be changed to specify that the photo was taken in Casino Delfino, rather than Hotel Delfino. Unfortunately, I do not have the permissions to edit this article for whatever reason, so anyone who does have these permissions shall change the article. - Some random guy who doesn't have an account 97.112.18.223

Made the change. Mario JC 12:03, April 9, 2023 (EDT)

A bit much??

This page is gigantic, and I think there's one major reason for this: Why is the "Obstacles" and "Objects" section so massively bloated? Do we really need entries for such small inconsequential things like "Hot Water", "Closet", "Fruit Tree", "Jar"???, "Window"???, "Blue and yellow blocks", "Boat", "Flipping Platforms", "Float", "Green Block", "Multicolored Block", "Orange Block", "Red Triangle", "Spinning Block", "Spinning Gear", "Star" (The wooden platform), "Vanishing Block", "Yellow Peg", "Hook", "Portrait", or "Spray Point"? Each, of course, with a large image that bloats the page. There's probably even more than those I listed that could go. We're not trying to list and document every single unique polygonal element in the game here, are we? It's a bit excessive, don't you think? Shadow2 (talk) 21:48, January 21, 2024 (EST)

Yes, we are, and no, it's not. Everything that counts as a distinct interactive object distinct from the stage geometry (and some that are part of it) deserve to be covered. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:09, January 21, 2024 (EST)

@Shadow2 I agree with Doc - if something has a discrete gameplay function, than it should be included here (especially - but not exclusively - if they are acknowledged in the "items & objects" section of the Shogakukan Mario encyclopedia, of which many of these allegedly superfluous objects are). I also don't think this article is particularly big. By contrast, Super Mario Sunshine (149,542 bytes) is only about half the size of the Super Mario Galaxy (310,969 bytes) article. I would even say more can be contributed to the Sunshine article in the future (not in listing individual objects - that seems pretty thorough. More so in discussing the nature of the game itself, similar to SMG). - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:54, January 22, 2024 (EST)

I don't think we should document every single thing a thing does, but at least we should have sections for more concretely named things like Manhole or Wall painting; even something like flower, nail, and balloon probably. But something like a window or pianta-shaped tree, though? Nah. I mean, don't tell me every railing post cap, every newel, every streetlamp or other hat-mountable objects you find in Odyssey needs its own section because Mario can throw a hat on it to get a coin. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 19:15, January 22, 2024 (EST)

Shared functions can share a section. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:19, January 22, 2024 (EST)

Honestly, Super Mario Galaxy's page suffers the same problem, in my opinion. Crushing Pillar, Electric Ball, "Rotating Green Platform". Maybe there should be some policy in place to determine where to draw the line, because at what point do you stop? I'm sure if I tried hard enough, I could scrounge through these games to find some sort of tiny "objects" in these games that have distinct features, but really don't need to be talked about. You mention a "discrete gameplay function". Well, what if something gives Mario a single coin when it's sprayed? Doesn't that count as a function. So, would we include every single solitary object, wall, and building that gives Mario a coin? Shadow2 (talk) 21:09, February 1, 2024 (EST)

I do think there is a difference between something that is just part of the terrain (which I do not think should be included) and a discrete object (which I generally do think should be included), but it is not always clear where one should draw that line. Generally, at minimum, I personally try to include what is listed under the "Items & Objects" sections for the games in the Shogakukan encyclopedia. While not all encompassing, Nintendo was directly involved with the production of the text here, and it is best, most accessible primary literature that directly highlight what are true obstacles, items, and objects in most modern Mario games. (It also provides a place for English-speakers to engage with the same material, as the English-localization of the encyclopedia has many errors.) Anything beyond that is usually added by other users, and I do not always agree with those decisions. (Is it really necessary to have water tide and lava tide? It's just freezing water and lava that is moving. Similarly, there are entries in the Sunshine article that might be better understood as an element of the terrain.) However, I do not feel it is appropriate for me alone to tell other users what should or should not be included. Working on articles here is collaborative, and these are often edge-cases. Maybe a wider policy discussion would be helpful.

I will say that, if it is something that would be included in the article of a 2D game without pause, I don't see why it shouldn't be in the article for the 3D games. (e.g. the sand tide is included in the Super Mario World article. Why would we omit the crushing pillar from Super Mario Galaxy if it does the same thing?) - Nintendo101 (talk) 22:19, February 1, 2024 (EST)

I have created a spreadsheet for objects as listed in the encyclopedia and a talk post about it here. I thought it would be helpful in contextualizing what counts as an object, what is general terrain, etc. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:25, February 16, 2024 (EST)

Manta?

What exactly qualifies the Manta as a mid boss? What makes its boss fight less notable than Eely Mouth, Petey Piranha, etc.? For that matter, what is our definition of mid boss at all? I see the desire to split off Gatekeepers, Monty Moles, Shadow Mario, and the Plungelos, but is there really anything that makes them lesser than the other bosses? Most of them are recurring, but so are Petey and Gooper Blooper, and Plungelos are not recurring (though there are at least multiple of them within the one "fight"). All of them are, at least once, the primary objective of a stage (Gatekeeper in Bianco, Shadow Mario in every Episode 7, Plungelo in its only appearance, Monty Mole in Noki Bay), and sure, Gatekeeper and Monty Mole have extensive platforming sections before you get to fight them in these stages, but so do Petey and Gooper in Noki Bay, and the Plungelos are the sole objective of the stage. The only thing I can think of is that it's based on the music that plays, but I don't know that that's really solid logic for declaring a group of bosses "less than" when the game otherwise doesn't seem to make the same distinction. 73.171.104.211 19:21, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

It is a mid-boss in the same way those others (as well as Gooper Blooper in Noki Bay) are. But the fact Gooper is both is why I had merged those sections in a prior iteration. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:37, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

When I build the tables for these games, it is with the knowledge that some subjects could be supported in multiple different subcategories (especially between obstacles and objects, and within different subcategories of objects). Where the barriers between them lies can sometimes be blurred. My mindset is to place subjects within the categories with which the see the most structural in-game support. I do think Super Mario Sunshine structurally has mid-bosses and normal bosses, and that is a valuable distinction to convey to readers. For Gooper Blooper, I believe it is repurposed as a mid-boss and that should probably be conveyed in the article, but is more often utilized as a normal boss and appears as such more often than not in the game, and thus makes more sense in the "normal boss" subcategory. I think the categorization of the Phantamanta is less ambiguous, and is further supported by the language used on the official soundtrack integrated in Super Mario 3D All-Stars. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:49, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

It might be better to just have a merged table with a "type" column to it to better illustrate that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:51, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

I'm still not seeing a definition for mid boss here. What do you mean "it is a mid-boss in the same way those others are"? That's not an explanation lmao. 73.171.104.211 20:55, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

The OST calls that theme music they use the midboss theme, and also consider it relative to Petey (for the Gatekeepers), Wiggler (for Plungelos), Eely-Mouth (for Gooper-the-third), and King Boo (for the Manta). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:57, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

Yes. For clarification, mid-bosses are (generally) physically diminutive and typically proceed a battle with a larger boss later on in the course. For Phantamanta, it is battled in Sirena Beach before an eventual battle with King Boo. - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:09, July 13, 2024 (EDT)

Prioritize the names used in Toadstool Tour over the guidebooks for enemies and bosses endemic to Super Mario Sunshine

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

change the names 12-0-0

TLDR; because of the inconsistent and unreliable nature of the third-party guidebooks published for Super Mario Sunshine, I propose we use the scoreboard from Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour - a direct, in-game source from Nintendo - for the endemic enemies and bosses in the main Super Mario Sunshine article, its corresponding level articles, and the body text of their respective enemy articles. We know from Mario Portal that these unambiguously are the localized names for these subjects. Super Mario Sunshine is the only game they have ever appeared in and thus the only context where these names would ever be applicable. The following would be changed in the previously mentioned articles:

• Swoopin' Stu → Gooble
• Sanbo Head → Pokey Pod (see comment from Blinker (talk) below; "Pokey Head" would become the preferred localized name from Galaxy onward, but "Pokey Pod" is also used in Toadstool Tour whereas "Sanbo Head" only occurs in the third-party guides)
• Coo Coo → Plurp
• Jumping Blooper → Bloopad
• Gatekeeper → Proto Piranha
• Manta → Phantamanta

The long you can read; Super Mario Sunshine was one of the first Super Mario games where many of its characters, enemies, bosses, and objects were not properly localized into English, or at least not in a source directly published by Nintendo. In contrast to most prior guidebooks, the Nintendo Power Player's Guide (published and scribed by Nintendo of America) provides informal descriptors for subjects not directly named in-game, and the majority of subjects are wholly unmentioned in the instruction booklet. In typical EAD style, most of the enemies and characters are not named directly by NPCs in the game's script, who prefer to use informal descriptors. (e.g., "Some weird turtle is doing bad stuff back there! It's crazy!" – Pianta during "The Runaway Ferris Wheel".)

Consequently, as delineated in our naming policy, we have historically been relying on licensed third-party Super Mario Sunshine guidebooks published around that time by Prima Games, DK's BradyGames, and Versus Books. This has inherently been an imperfect approach, because despite all of these sources being licensed by Nintendo, they often used different names for the same subjects. This is apparent in our articles for nearly every enemy and boss from the game. There does not seem to be any hierarchy between these sources or one outlined in our policies, so which names are the most appropriate? This varies by article, but generally it seems that we have prioritized Prima Games' names, potentially due to their fecundity and exclusivity deal with Nintendo from 2007 onward, but neither of those aspects were relevant when Super Mario Sunshine was released. For this game, Prima Games, BradyGames, and Versus Books are equal. Curatorially, this makes it difficult to assess how to title articles and how to refer to subjects within the context of this game. What names were provided by Nintendo of America and what ones were invented by convenience by the editors and authors of these books? Because if any of them are the former, it is immediately odd that they would not use any of them in the in-house Nintendo Power Player's Guide, and only in these third-party books. Further, it is odd that these guides would have different names from each other at all if there really was a list of enemies provided by Nintendo themselves. It is beyond our capacity to speculate on the origin of these individual names. Some may be from Nintendo themselves, some may not be, some were applied in error (more on that in the next paragraph), but it makes the use of them, in my view at least, uncomfortably problematic.

"But, Nintendo101," you exclaim to your computer, "why does any of this matter? This is all semantics." It is semantics, and there was nothing wrong with using these sources in lieu of anything closer to Nintendo themselves. However, the names used has had disproportionate impact on the enemies and bosses that never appeared outside of Super Mario Sunshine (what I refer to here as "endemic") to the point of being misrepresentative of their subjects. For many years, we referred to a green turtle boss as an "Huge Red Electrokoopa" because that was the name used by Prima Games. A terrestrial, wingless blob unrelated to Stus was called a "Swoopin' Stu". A recurring Piranha Plant mid-boss was called a "Gatekeeper." Because these subjects never reappeared outside of their debut game, any mentioning of these endemics on the wiki outside of Super Mario Sunshine feels inherently confusing (to me at least). Returning enemies, such as Cheep Cheeps, were given unique names and misidentified as wholly new ones on the wiki for multiple years. The editors for a officially-licensed book published by Dark Horse Comics incorporated some of these names, and while that alone should not inform our systematics (Nintendo frankly should have provided Dark Horse with names), it is an example of how the choices we make here can have greater consequences and reach a wide swath of readers.

As part of a fun tradition of the series, Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour - a game published a few years after Super Mario Sunshine - incorporates the names of preestablished Super Mario characters (as well as some original monikers) on its in-game scoreboard as cameos. A number of these named seemed wholly new, but potentially were supposed to refer to Super Mario Sunshine enemies. Interestingly, a few of these were not used by any of the third-party guidebooks. With the release of the game's page on Mario Portal, it has been definitively indicated that the names that appear on the Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour scoreboard are unambiguously representative of the enemies and bosses from Super Mario Sunshine, and I would like us to prioritize the Toadstool Tour scoreboard over the third-party guidebooks for the game's endemics. These are more assuredly the true names for these subjects.

Even if we wanted to accept that names like "Huge Red Electrokoopa" really were the originally intended titles from Nintendo, or that it is not our place to make a judgement call on which names are "wrong", I feel inclined to point out that we did change the names in the Super Mario Land article when some of its endemic enemies had their names updated in the Nintendo 3DS Virtual Console release, and unlike them, we have proof that names like "Phantamanta" and "Gooble" were in use pretty close to the original release of Super Mario Sunshine, unlike "Bombshell Koopa."

For clarity, within their respective articles, "Swoopin' Stu", "Coo Coo", etc. would still be mentioned in the opening sentences and cited, but their names used in Toadstool Tour would be prioritized in the subsequent text.

I offer four options:

1. Support: Let's change the names!
2. Support: only change the names in the main game and level articles. Do not change the prioritized name in the body text of enemy articles.
3. Oppose: do not change what names are prioritized.

Proposer: Nintendo101 (talk)
Deadline: July 31st, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support: Let's change the names!

1. Nintendo101 (talk) Per above.
2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer.
3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
5. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
6. Seandwalsh (talk) Per proposal.
7. LadySophie17 (talk) Toadstool Tour, Mario Portal, and now even 3D All-Stars? That's the nail in the coffin for me.
8. Jdtendo (talk) Per proposal.
9. Arend (talk) Per all; I also had been under the impression for a while that the "Swoopin' Stu" name applied to Gooble has been a mistake from editors and authors of that guide, and was meant for another enemy instead (though that part is mere speculation atm)
10. Ahemtoday (talk) These names have been bugging me for a long time.
11. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
12. Scrooge200 (talk) This had been bothering me for a while.

Comments on naming proposal

We could also potentially use Super Mario 3D All-Stars as justification for these names—the names "Proto Piranha" and "Phantamanta" are used in-game there for the music-player mode. It wouldn't be much different than how we treat renames in remakes. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 15:54, July 17, 2024 (EDT)

Mario Portal also names Blue Electrokoopa and Red Electrokoopa as "Electro-Koopa (Blue)" and "Electro-Koopa (Red)" respectively. The names without hyphens also came from these third-party guides (Prima specifically, the same guide that named the Electro-Koopa King "Huge Red Electrokoopa"). Should these also be renamed to the Mario Portal names if this passes? rend (talk) (edits) 12:57, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

Electro-Koopas are actually one of the few enemies explicitly named in-game and they use the hyphen. ("Please be careful of the Electro-Koopas around the park..." – Noki from Pinna Park.). Per our naming policies, we could potentially change them outright regardless of this proposal.

I did not bring that up here because I thought it would be better to discuss their names in a proposal where we consider lumping them together under one Electro-Koopa article. All Japanese and English paratext treats them as colored variants on the same enemy, which we typically lump together as one on the wiki. What gives me pause is that they are not just colored variants on the same enemy with slight behavioral differences like Koopa Troopas or Cataquacks. They physically look quite different from one another, are different sizes, occur in different parts of terrain, and have completely different means of attack. That might be tangential to what names we prioritize for them, and I don't know if their differences mean they shouldn't be lumped together in one article, but it was complicated enough that it made we want to push that off for another day. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:36, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

A point of comparison for how uniquely different they are could be Koopa Troopa and Climbing Koopa, enemies that the wiki regards as separate in spite of being ontologically the same creatures owing to their massive behavioral and contextual differences within the same game. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) 16:22, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

There was a proposal to merge the Electro-Koopas that failed, though it was a while ago. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:39, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

I'm not voting yet, but some names, like "Plurp" just do not sit well with me. Coo Coo sounds a lot more... pleasant. -- FanOfYoshi 13:18, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

My position is that "Plurp" should be the prioritized name because it is unambiguously the proper localization for the enemy from Nintendo themselves (per Toadstool Tour and the Mario Portal^[sic]) and that should be prioritized. While "Coo Coo" sounds pleasant, it has only appeared in third-party guides. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:36, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

I see. -- FanOfYoshi 14:03, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

I know this is a different case than those mentioned in this proposal (partly because the enemy appears outside of Sunshine, and partly because that means the name is not confirmed by Portal, which uses the current name), but I would also like to see this done to Sanbo Head and the Toadstool Tour name of "Pokey Pod", which matches Seedy Pod. Blinker (talk) 17:06, July 18, 2024 (EDT)

(I've been thinking of making my own Mario Portal-related proposal, but I'm still waiting to see how Banzai/Boomer Bill pans out first.) This one is so unusual that I understand using Toadstool Tour and 3D All-Stars to keep things more grounded, but the problem I have with digital media is that, unlike print media, it isn't static by nature. Having print media higher priority than digital media kept things more stable for these older games. When things are put to print, you can point to a period of time and say, with reasonable certainty, that is how things stood back then. That helps maintain legacy material. We've already seen Mario Portal silently make minor changes, so I don't think I agree with putting websites way up in name tier #2. It made perfect sense to me to keep them below contemporary guides. The same "they've been phased out" rationale could be made to move instruction booklets, but Nintendo has generally kept manual PDFs of their older games, so I don't believe that needs to go anywhere either. But maybe it's just that this view is behind the times. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:10, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

I understand your perspective, but it interferes with the fact that the most prioritized sources in our naming policy are the video games themselves, which are digital media. If there was a naming conflict between the actual game and its instruction booklet, the rendering in the game would take priority by default.

Further, this proposal was not made to bridge with Mario Portal, it is to prioritize the names within Toadstool Tour which is a first-party video game published by Nintendo. Mario Portal (and to a lesser extent, Super Mario 3D All-Stars) is simply contextualizing to the intent and legitimacy of those names. I would not give it much weight on its own for the reasons you have cited. If the suggestion is that the names from Toadstool Tour were applied to the enemies and bosses form Sunshine in retrospect or only for Mario Portal specifically, then I would say that is overly cautious. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:24, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

I'm not sure if I really agree with the games being 'digital media' in nearly the same sense, but that's getting into a whole other discussion. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:40, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

Forgive me, I may have misunderstood your point. If you do not personally consider the games to be digital media, than what is the issue with prioritizing the video game Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour over third-party guidebooks for these specific enemies and bosses? - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:08, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

I don't see how the format of the primary product has to do with it. I suppose I would agree most with incorporating the 3D All-Stars material (ie. Proto Piranha and Phantamanta) because that contains a direct re-release of said product. The sound galleries and what have you can be likened to supplemental material packaged with the primary product, like a booklet. I also agree with changing the Electro-Koopas to be consistent to their in-game form (I supported the merge proposal that failed). However, regardless of its Sunshine references, Toadstool Tour is decidedly its own thing. The fact that the Sunshine guidebooks couldn't keep things straight leads me to believe these names came about later, and so, to apply them to Sunshine sections would be anachronistic, which the wiki tries to avoid when it can. Again, though, it's not often that a game has this many licensed guidebooks, and that the Prima guide was taken as the de facto lead guide over the Nintendo Power one. I guess consider me neutral. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:18, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

OK, just for simple clarity, which pages are affected? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:18, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

I believe it's the six articles laid out at the top of the proposal text. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) 15:07, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

d'oh, that horizontal line threw me off, I didn't scroll above it. Whoopsy! Thanks. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:13, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

No problem :) -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) 15:59, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

I'm uneasy about the Phantamanta, since everything else (including in other languages) just calls it a manta; it's probably a megawacky (even by Sunshine's standards) reinterpretation of the SM64 thing. I know we already have the article titled as Phantamanta, but I'm still a bit uneasy about it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:15, July 20, 2024 (EDT)

I agree it is probably an elaboration on the Mario 64 manta ray because nearly all of the bosses in Sunshine are like that, but that alone does not mean it was suppose to be the same thing in an ontological sense and I doubt it was intended to be given the same name by Nintendo of America. I interpret the use of "manta" in the third-party guides as an informal descriptor (probably created by the editors) relating to its shape and how the Pianta describes it in-game, because I do not know of any scenarios within the last 24 years where Nintendo of America would deliberately give a Super Mario enemy or boss a lowercased name. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:24, July 20, 2024 (EDT)