MarioWiki:Proposals

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Sunday, February 9th, 08:05 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
  2. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  3. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{ongoing TPP}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles and Super Mario Run.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Stop considering reused voice clips as references (usually), Waluigi Time (ended November 8, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Stop integrating templates under the names of planets and areas in the Super Mario Galaxy games, Nintendo101 (ended December 25, 2024)
Split image categories into separate ones for assets, screenshots, and artwork, Scrooge200 (ended January 5, 2025)
Organize "List of implied" articles, EvieMaybe (ended January 12, 2025)
Split Mario & Luigi badges and remaining accessories, Camwoodstock (ended February 1, 2025)
Merge Chef Torte and Apprentice (Torte), Camwoodstock (ended February 3, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Merge Wiggler Family to Dimble Wood, Camwoodstock (ended January 11, 2025)
Split the Ink Bomb, Camwoodstock (ended January 12, 2025)
Create a catch-all Poltergust article, Blinker (ended January 21, 2025)
Merge the two Clawing for More articles, Salmancer (ended January 27, 2025)
Merge Dangan Mario to Invincible Mario, PrincessPeachFan (ended January 30, 2025)
Give the Cluck-A-Pop Prizes articles, Camwoodstock (ended January 31, 2025)

Writing guidelines

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc.

Truck#Mario Kart Tour
Moving cargo trucks appear on GCN Mushroom Bridge. Stationary cargo trucks appear on the road in GCN Mushroom Bridge R, GCN Mushroom Bridge R/T, New York Minute T, New York Minute 4T, and Bangkok Rush; they also appear on the sidelines in Tokyo Blur 3, Tokyo Blur 4, New York Minute 3, New York Minute B, Los Angeles Laps, Los Angeles Laps 3, Bangkok Rush, and Bangkok Rush 2, as well as in these courses' R, T, and R/T variants where applicable.

The number of courses listed in this paragraph was getting so wild that I had to condense it with the "as well as in these courses' variants" statement. Problem is, this sacrifices specificity. The proposal aims to introduce a guideline whereby lists of this ilk are more digestibly integrated in prose writing. To this end, I propose two options, each based on a format already used on some articles; the preferred format will be applied when the amount of courses listed is 7 or higher.

Option 1: Bullet-point lists

The subject's general description for a particular game is followed by a bulleted list of courses in said game, like so:

Slippa#Donkey Kong Land

Slippas appear in fifteen levels:

If a subject displays different traits across one game, such as having different colours or behaviours, and these traits are described on one article as opposed to being split between articles (e.g. Bandits/Coin Bandits in Yoshi's Island), each course in the list is followed in brackets by whatever variations of this enemy appear in the course. In other words, if a subject has traits X, Y, and Z across levels A, B, C, D etc. in a game, then the level list has the following form:

  • Level A (X variation)
  • Level B (Y variation)
  • Level C (X variation, Z variation)
  • Level D (X variation, Y variation) and so on, and so forth.

Option 2: Courses show up in-line when hovering/tapping a certain phrase

When the seventh course is reached in a list, the courses listed from that point on are being integrated in a piece of hoverable text.

Maw-Ray#Mario Kart Tour

They are found in Piranha Plant Cove, Piranha Plant Cove 2, Piranha Plant Cove 3, GCN Daisy Cruiser, and some of their variants.

Notice that the phrase "and some of their variants" has a dashed underline. Putting your cursor over it (on desktop) or tapping it (on mobile) reveals these course variants.

If the number of courses slated to be included in hoverable text is too small (e.g. the seventh course is the only one left to mention), previous courses in the list can be integrated in the hoverable text at the editor's discretion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Note: Neither guideline will apply where a subject's course appearances are described individually, like in the Skewer article.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: June 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

  1. Somethingone (talk) Not the biggest fan of using hover text for large swaths of important information, especially on mobile. I do agree with reformatting the big sentences though, and I am voting for this potion since it's pretty consistent for what we typically do with information like this.
  2. RealStuffMister (talk) mobile users won't be able to use the second one.
  3. MegaBowser64 (talk) I don't think it's very necessary to standardize this format, but organization and consistency are nice anyways. I personally like lists, and, as stated above, they don't affect mobile users, so this choice makes sense.
  4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.

Option 2

Just list them in a sentence outright

It doesn't matter

Comments

I do not see the point in standardizing it, really Spectrogram (talk) 14:09, May 25, 2023 (EDT)

If you don't see the point, then I suppose you could vote for the "It doesn't matter" option. Or is that not what that's for? ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 10:51, May 26, 2023 (EDT)
Why should I? Abstaining is a better option when the proposal doesn't ruin anything if it passes. Spectrogram (talk) 10:58, May 26, 2023 (EDT)

Clarify how to italicize merchandise titles in articles

This is what MarioWiki:Manual of Style currently states regarding italicization of media titles in articles:

The wiki has decided it proper to respect all games, series, movies, television programs, albums (music) and publications (print: comics, books and magazines) by italicizing all of their titles...

This policy does a good job covering the vast majority of media (i.e. all digital games, audiovisual media, and print media), with the only type of media not covered being physical merchandise. All of this media is listed in Template:Merchandise, which has led me to notice inconsistencies in how the titles of merchandise are italicized. For example:

This proposal aims to fix these problems by standardizing how merchandise is italicized. I've tried to keep the proposal as simple as possible; my apologies if this is unnecessarily complicated.

I want to limit unnecessary voting options, so if one thing comes out of this, it's clear that the titles of physical tabletop games (board games, card games, and others such as Donkey Kong Jenga) should be completely italicized, because they are objectively games just like any digital game, and they should thus fall under existing italicization policy. What's left is to decide how the titles of other merchandise types should be italicized, if at all.

As a clarification, only official merchandise titles should be considered for italicization, i.e. titles that are clearly displayed on the merchandise's packaging, on the item itself, or otherwise from a reliable source, such as the manufacturer's website; a title from a source such as an Amazon or eBay listing is too unreliable, and a unitalicized, general description of the item can be used instead in those cases.

There are three notable features of many Super Mario franchise merchandise:

  • Unique brand names used to distinguish a series of merchandise, most commonly with collectibles such as the Super Mario Trading Card Collection, Nintendo Super Secrets, and the aforementioned Trading Card Treats.
  • Names of games and series in the Super Mario franchise, as well as the franchise itself. These should already be italicized per existing policy.
  • Product names used to title each item in a series, such as the Burger King "Donkey Kong Time Racer" toy. A product name can also be given to standalone items, such as the Mushroom Bank. Because these are almost used simply to describe a product in the same way as an unofficial brief description, I believe these can safely be left unitalicized. I haven't included many options regarding these to keep voting options to a minimum, though please let me know if there is a valid argument against this.

Note that in this context, brand names should not be confused with the names of the companies that manufacture and/or sell the brands, such as First4Figures, Mattel, or Taco Bell; these should be left unitalicized. As an example, Freiberger is a company, Pizzatainment is one of their brands, and Triple Salami Explosion is one of the products sold under that brand.

Because of these features, I see four possible choices for italicization of the titles of non-tabletop-game merchandise:

  • Completely italicize the entire title, just like the other media already described in MarioWiki:Manual of Style.
  • Italicize any unique brand names and Super Mario games or series, but do not italicize any other words.
  • Only italicize the name of a Super Mario game, series, or the franchise if it appears in the title, but do not italicize any brand names or other words.
  • Do not italicize the title at all.

My personal choice from these options would be to italicize the names of any unique brand names and Super Mario games or series, but leave any other words unitalicized. I believe this would be the best balance between leaving all merchandise titles subject to a lack of standardization and brazenly italicizing merchandise titles where it may be unwarranted, though I can see a valid argument being made for most of the other options.

The option that receives the most votes should be explicitly listed as a guideline on MarioWiki:Manual of Style, under the "Italicizing titles" header. Please bring up any points of confusion or contention in the comments.

Proposer: ThePowerPlayer (talk)
Deadline: June 16, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Fully italicize the entire titles of all merchandise

Fully italicize titles of tabletop games, and italicize only the names of unique brands and Super Mario games or series otherwise

  1. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) This makes the most sense.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Works for us, since this definitely is most in line with how we usually format things as-is, and the tabletop games should've been fully italicized from the start.

Fully italicize titles of tabletop games, and italicize only the names of Super Mario games or series otherwise

Fully italicize titles of only tabletop games, and do not italicize titles of other merchandise

  1. MegaBowser64 (talk) Wikipedia italicizes board and card games and doesn't capitalize other merch. I don't really see the point in italicizing franchise names within the name of another product which could possibly already have some italicization going on.

Do not italicize titles of any merchandise whatsoever

Do not establish any guidelines regarding merchandise titles

Comments

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles

This proposal is similar to this one about Conker the Squirrel and this one about Professor Elvin Gadd, except this time, the targets are the many Sonic the Hedgehog characters who appear in the Mario & Sonic games. In these games, the characters are almost always referred to by their shortened names (e.g. Sonic and Tails), but for some strange reason, the wiki article titles don't reflect this (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog and Miles "Tails" Prower). This is also true of Sonic's Super Smash Bros. appearances, which simply call him "Sonic". Speaking of which, I'm lumping Fox McCloud into this proposal too for the same reason: the Smash games always just call him Fox.

Pages that will be renamed by this proposal:

Redirects using the full names will be kept, of course.

Proposer: Hewer (talk)
Deadline: June 4, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Hewer (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Swallow (talk) Per proposal
  3. Tails777 (talk) Per proposal.
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) The only part of this we'd hold contention with has been addressed, and after reviewing the list again, these all make sense to us. Now, admittedly, we didn't go scouring the list of every character article on the wiki, so there might be a few we're missing; but we can definitely address those as the crop up, and these are the vast majority of the ones we can think of anyways.
  5. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal.
  6. MegaBowser64 (talk) P e r p r o p o s a l .
  7. PnnyCrygr (talk) Per. Also, characters who have name like Jimmy Thang are using their common nicks (Jimmy T instead of Jimmy Thang). We also have Penny instead of Penny Crygor (and Dr. Crygor not Doctor Crygor), so I will whollily and happily support short nicks names for third partiers.
  8. Cadrega86 (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. SeanWheeler (talk) There are some crossover characters with shortened names that overlap with Mario subjects. And using the series name to disambiguate just emphasizes how non-Mario they are. If Sonic the Hedgehog is going to be moved to Sonic, then shouldn't Jet the Hawk be Jet (Sonic)? Actually, if there's proof of their full names somewhere in a Mario crossover like in the Super Smash Bros. Brawl trophies, then their page names should remain the same. The Sonic logo in Smash is proof that Sonic is Sonic the Hedgehog from Mario's perspective, so Sonic's name has to stay and every other crossover character whose full name was stated.
  2. Killer Moth (talk) Per Seanwheeler. After reading the comments I personally find this change to be unnecessary. And as Sean points out in the comments, names like Fox are generic and can confuse new editors.
  3. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per SeanWheeler.

Comments

Jet from Mario Tennis should be prioritised over the Sonic character as he is a Mario character. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:40, May 28, 2023 (EDT)

Seconding this. We should probably make "Jet (MT:PT)" be just "Jet", and "Jet the Hawk" can be "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)". We'd be glad to support if that was addressed, but otherwise... Wow, that's a potential bit of Wiki Jank waiting to be discovered 10-odd years from now. ;P Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:54, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
I thought of that, but I wasn't sure what identifier to use for Jet the Hawk since he's made multiple appearances (and for some reason I thought there was already a case of a crossover character with priority over a Mario character, but looking at the articles we have I guess I was remembering wrong). I'll settle for "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)" though as it's consistent with Slime (Dragon Quest) (as well as the former Steve (Minecraft) and Roy (Fire Emblem) articles). I've changed the proposal. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:04, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
Works for us! Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 14:15, May 28, 2023 (EDT)

Don't you think "Shadow (character)" might be confusing due to the existence of Shadow the Dog, a WarioWare character? ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 18:57, May 29, 2023 (EDT)

I doubt it, since that article isn't using the title Shadow. If it was then the identifier would need to be more specific, but as it stands, I think Shadow (character) works fine. Compare Leo and Leo Luster, where no identifier for Leo works fine because the other Leo uses a full name. It's not a perfect comparison since in Shadow's case we need an identifier because of the SMRPG enemy but it gets the point across. (Speaking of which, I noticed that Ninja is another crossover character sharing a name with an SMRPG enemy, except they share naming priority. Maybe there's a case to move the current Shadow article to "Shadow (enemy)"?) Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:15, May 29, 2023 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler No offence, but did you even read the proposal before opposing? I am suggesting to move Jet the Hawk to Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog). There's precedent for this with articles like Slime (Dragon Quest) and Ring (Sonic the Hedgehog). And there's also precedent for moving full names to shortened versions, like Conker the Squirrel, Professor Elvin Gadd, Princess Rosalina, and the Donkey Kong Country animal friends. I'm not saying that the full names don't exist or that we should remove all mention of them, just that we should move the article titles to the more common names (we aren't about to move Mario to Mario Mario or Bowser to King Bowser Koopa). Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:39, May 31, 2023 (EDT)

Realised I misunderstood your comment about Jet, but I still disagree because the franchise is called Sonic the Hedgehog, it's just the character I'm suggesting to move to his more common name in the games he crossed over with Mario in. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:44, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
Slime (Dragon Quest) and Roy (Fire Emblem) had their series title because they were only known by one name. Conker, according to the proposal that moved him barely had any reference to officially being called "Conker the Squirrel" in his own series. Sonic's full name, Sonic the Hedgehog is quite famous as that is the title of his series and he is called Sonic the Hedgehog in just about every media he's in. And while the character select screen in Smash simply calls him Sonic, his trophy is called Sonic the Hedgehog. So really, Sonic should not be moved. And neither should crossover characters with well known full names. "Big (character)" is too generic. "Big the Cat" tells us that the page is about the Sonic character. The crossover page names are fine with their well known names. We don't have to limit them to what Mario would call them. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:36, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
Seeing as we're only covering the characters as they appear in Mario media, I think it makes perfect sense to go with the significantly more commonly used names in said media. It's the same principle as why we can't use quotes or artwork for crossover characters that aren't from their crossover appearances, and why the naming policy says we should ignore name changes of crossover characters unless these changes appear in Mario media. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:46, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
And if these full names have appeared in Mario crossover media and they have the common name as a subject in the main Mario series, it would be better to disambiguate by using the full name heard in the crossover instead of using parentheticals. If we ever get an article about a species of Fox, the Smash character shouldn't be Fox (character) or Fox (Starfox). He should be Fox McCloud, as his last name was confirmed in Smash through his Melee trophy and in Solid Snake's codec conversation. And Sonic is quite commonly known as Sonic the Hedgehog. If a character's full name is not stated in Mario crossovers, sure, I'd support them being called only by what Mario knows them as. But popular characters that have their most well known names said in the crossover should not be moved to generic names. That's why the proposal to move the Koopalings to their first names failed, because Palutena referred to them by their full names in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. And besides, we might as well move Princess Peach and Princess Daisy to simply Peach and Daisy if we're going to just go by common names. This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:33, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
Honestly, I've considered moving Peach and Daisy to their shortened names (Daisy especially since she's rarely ever called "Princess Daisy") and I still wholeheartedly support that Koopalings proposal, but those are separate discussions. "This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic" - indeed, that's my exact goal, and I really don't see the issue with it. Shortening the names to be more accurate to what they're usually called doesn't make them "generic names". Once again, I'm not saying the full names don't exist, just that we should use the more common names, which we have precedent for. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, seeing as this argument is starting to go in circles. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 21:16, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
Well, in my opinion, full names (while omitting middlenames) are better titles for wiki pages than just first names, especially on a wiki that has pages on everything that appears in a multimedia franchise including crossover characters. And yeah, calling Fox McCloud simply "Fox" does make the name generic, especially when editors of a Mario Wiki wouldn't immediately get that it's the Star Fox character until they see the infobox picture on his page. And besides, it's better for SEO to use the best known names that aren't just one word. Mario could stay the same because he's the trope-namer for the One Mario Limit and his last name also being Mario was debated for years. Bowser can keep his name because despite there being a Doug Bowser running Nintendo, has anyone actually called him "Bowser Koopa?" Fox McCloud in Super Smash Bros. media has the Melee trophy, Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance confirming his name. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:55, June 1, 2023 (EDT)

Lol, this is starting to look more like a colab'd professorial thesis (whatever that is) than the comments section of an unremarkable proposal on a wiki about a series of children's video games, do you see how much this sentence is sticking out? BOWSER... (talk) 16:54, June 1, 2023 (EDT)

Trust me, this is nothing out of the ordinary. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:06, June 1, 2023 (EDT)
Wowy, I guess I'm pretty new around here. BOWSER... (talk) 17:26, June 1, 2023 (EDT)

While I do agree with the proposal in theory, I have a thought: correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't this line of reasoning later be used to remove "Kong" from all of the Kong characters' names (save Charlie Brown Donkey Kong)? LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:35, June 2, 2023 (EDT)

Their names almost always include "Kong" in them, so I seriously doubt it. Mario jumping Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 19:09, June 2, 2023 (EDT)
Not necessarily. A lot of spinoff character selects and such abbreviate to first names for all except (usually) Donkey Kong, who is instead DK. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 09:39, June 3, 2023 (EDT)
Yeah. A lot of people have their first names as their commonly used names. So taking the common name rule too literally like this proposal and the Koopaling proposal would reduce a lot of character pages to one-name articles. That rule about names most commonly used probably should be reworded as names not being too rare. I haven't played any Donkey Kong games, so if the Kongs are reduced to just their first names, they could lose their identity to me, because I know them better as the names from this wiki. So really, we shouldn't be taking the common name rule to be that we call everyone by the short names they are constantly called, and we definitely shouldn't use parentheticals when those characters have a longer name available. Fox has been called Fox McCloud in Mario crossover media as recent as Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Even his Fighter Spirit was named Fox McCloud. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:38, June 2, 2023 (EDT)

Split the remaining Mario Party and Mario Party 2 mini-game variants from each other

Building off of a discussion and proposal from the Balloon Burst talk page, I'm proposing we aim to split off the rest of the mini-games shared between Mario Party and Mario Party 2. While many of those games play almost identically between both games, many of them still feature various rule differences. Few examples:

  • Hot Rope Jump in the first game is a survival mini-game where everyone must jump 20 times (40 in Mini-Game Island). Anyone who hits the rope loses and pays the people who didn't hit the rope money. In Mario Party 2, it becomes a last man standing game.
  • Crane Game in the first game gives the solo player only one chance to grab something or someone, with the money they earn varying based on who or what they catch. In Mario Party 2, the solo player must grab everyone and is given the option to grab clocks to extend the timer.
  • Grab Bag in the original has everyone stealing each other's money. In Mario Party 2, it's a battle mini-game where everyone grabs pre-disposed Mushrooms and one lucky target gets a golden one worth three points and the aim is to just have the most mushrooms.

Those are just a few examples. Several other games feature differences too. And while there is the argument that "they still play the same at the core", a few things to counter that are the fact that both Mario Party: The Top 100 and Mario Party Superstars actively acknowledge the different versions of each mini-game, regardless of whether or not they had differing names or not. The Top 100 featured the MP2 version of Handcar Havoc while Superstars featured the MP version. And this extends to games with differing names, such as Hexagon Heat and Desert Dash to Mushroom Mix-Up and Dungeon Dash. And finally, this would be consistent with several other mini-games; the aforementioned ones that share the same basic concept, but have different names to the notable examples of Bowser's Bigger Blast and Beach Volleyball, which appear similar to identical to Bowser's Big Blast and Beach Volley Folly. All that being said, I don't think it's that unreasonable to split the rest of these mini-games into their own articles.

The following is a list of mini-games that would be split if we split all:

For the second option, these mini-games would be split based on having rule differences:

And as per the comment below, the third option would split mini-games with a different names across several languages:

As for the naming convention, I simply say we use the game as the identifier (Crane Game (Mario Party) to Crane Game (Mario Party 2)). It may not be how we covered Balloon Burst, mainly because many of the mini-games share the same category. Some could follow similar suits (Crazy Cutters (4-Player) to Crazy Cutters (Battle)), but I feel the titles work best. If anyone has any further thoughts or suggestions, let me know.

Proposer: Tails777 (talk)
Deadline: June 9, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Split all mini-games

  1. Tails777 (talk) Secondary choice.

Split only mini-games with rule differences

  1. Tails777 (talk) Primary choice. These mini-games have as much differences as Balloon Burst does. They may not be category changes, but they still have significant rule changes.
  2. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal. This makes the most sense to me.

Split mini-games with regional name differences

  1. Arend (talk) The Balloon Burst split not only had the rule change, but its Japanese name was also different, so this makes the most sense to me if we gotta split.

Split nothing

  1. MegaBowser64 (talk) Technically, these are the same minigames across two different games, so it just seems a bit odd to separate them seeing as there isn't too much to distinguish the different versions. I don't really see why we can't keep them on the same page and list the differences of the minigames anyway. Now, I would suggest improving the clarity and completeness of the existing articles, but separating the appearances altogether just seems a bit unorganized.
  2. PnnyCrygr (talk) Cosmetic changes across each mini game version do not warrant a split-up
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) I'm all for splits if the difference is notable (Balloon Burst) or Nintendo bothers to distinguish a visual change in the English localization (Hexagon Heat etc.) but the differences here aren't very significant. I don't think we'll benefit much from this and it'll just make navigation more confusing.
  4. Arend (talk) Secondary choice; I don't mind it if we kept the minigames merged either, and as Waluigi Time stated, most of the minigames listed only have aesthetic changes.

Comments

So is the idea that this would move Balloon Burst (4-Player) to Balloon Burst (Mario Party) and Balloon Burst (2 vs. 2) to Balloon Burst (Mario Party 2)? I'd support that but I don't think the Balloon Burst proposal is technically old enough to change the names. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:35, June 2, 2023 (EDT)

Actually, the idea of moving Balloon Burst's name is not covered here; that would remain unaffected. This is just the idea of splitting minigames from both Mario Party and Mario Party 2 that are still merged together. I guess I should've made a list of those minigames. As for the naming, I was just mentioning it to show I'm aware that it's not following the naming idea I had. But when the time comes that we can change that, I'd openly support that move too. Heck I tried to suggest it on the proposal itself. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

I'm also noticing a few games that are similar to the point where absolutely nothing changes (Tipsy Tourney, Shy Guy Says, Slot Car Derby etc). If people are opposed to splitting all of them, I can make an option to only split those that feature significant changes. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

@MegaBowser64 Part of the reason I'm proposing this is because we already have many minigames that are already split, despite being nearly identical. Mushroom Mix-Up and Hexagon Heat feature no gameplay differences between versions, the only reason they're split is because they have different names. And we just recently split Balloon Burst too, which also had the same gameplay focus as in Mario Party, with the only difference being the change in category, going from a 4-Player minigame to a 2-vs-2 minigame. Otherwise, the goal is still to burst the balloon fastest and the controls are identical. And with that minigame, even the name itself was the exact same. Beyond those examples, Desert Dash and Dungeon Dash play the exact same, Tightrope Treachery and Rainbow Run play the exact same, and Mario Bandstand and Toad Bandstand are in the same category as Balloon Burst; play the same, but different category. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

Face Lift in the first party game features you distorting Bowser's face; the next game has you distorting other characters' faces. This and other examples like this cannot make a minigame version distinguishable from another. Don't click Penny PnnyCrygr User contributions 21:58, June 2, 2023 (EDT)

Okay, but I listed examples where the rules differ. As I said, Crane Game in Mario Party ends when the solo player catches one thing while in Mario Party 2 it ends when all three players are caught. Bowl Over in Mario Party gives the player only one shot and will take money from anyone who is hit while in Mario Party 2, the solo player is given two shots and has to hit everyone to win. Those are not cosmetic changes. Again, I can alter things to only include mini-games where the rules and aims are altered, but I feel if we do nothing, we may as well merge the two Balloon Burst mini-games back together and merge Hexagon Heat, Rainbow Run and Dungeon Dash together with their Mario Party counterparts. Hexagon Heat is as much of a cosmetic change as Face Lift is. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

I actually think there should be an option to split the minigames based on their differing Japanese names (which also was a factor on why Balloon Burst was split). That would be the following:

ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 03:19, June 3, 2023 (EDT)

I could add that. While I'm more on the rule side of the split, it would be more consistent with how Balloon Burst was split. Plus, several of those games also have different names in other regions, which I feel helps support it. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

@Waluigi Time Except Balloon Burst doesn't have any gameplay differences. The category difference doesn't change the fact that the controls to bursting the balloon are the same and the goal of bursting the balloon first is still the same. I don't exactly see how Balloon Burst is a gameplay difference when the core concepts are the same across both games. Again, my points on Crane Game and Bowl Over are that they actually change over the course of two games; requiring the solo player to eliminate all three other players instead of just one. The requirements to end a game I feel are more significant when compared to Balloon Burst. I concede that stuff like Tipsy Tourney or Shy Guy Says would be a bit excessive, but for the examples where the rules do change, I feel that should be at least a bigger focus. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Sprite of Daisy's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

I did look at the examples listed, but I don't really find the differences there worth splitting over. You're still doing the same things in the game, just more of it. I put more stock in Balloon Burst switching to a different type of minigame (though I'm not super committed to keeping them split, I can take it or leave it). --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:01, June 3, 2023 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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