MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/46

Split all remaining courts/boards based on recurring places from their parent articles

Template:ProposalOutcome There's big inconsistently going on around the wiki partially revolving around stages in the sports games as well as Fortune Street that articles based on new places would be allowed their own article but those based on recurring locations will be forced to share an article (Bowser's Castle and Luigi's Mansion (place) amount the biggest offenders). What I don't get is that if they happen to stages from more popular games such as Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros., they get their own articles which isn't really fair. So I propose that all these sports courts and party boards are split from their parent article as I think the wiki is better off that way.

I was oringnally going to have this as a TPP on Bowser's Castle but I realised this issue was much present outside the article.

Proposer: NSY (talk)
Deadline: September 24, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. NSY (talk) Per what I said above.
2. AfternoonLight (talk) That's a great idea! Per NSY!
3. 3D Player 2010 (talk) Per all
4. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) per all. By the way, this proposal can be used for finding out which people are willingly wanting to be involved. If there is someone who is determined not to do it, that person would most likely oppose; but not all opposes (in theory) will be from people who are that way; there could be some who just don't want those to split but would do it if this passes.

Comments

I like the proposed idea, but only if someone were willing to take the responsibility of making sure that the splitted sections do not become stub articles. For example, the Mario Hoops section in Luigi's Mansion (place) is severely lacking in information, and if that area in the game isn't very unique as it sounds (I know nothing about Mario Hoops 3 on 3), then it would turn out to be an awful article. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

I can ensure that those sections that are currently in states that would result in them benign stuby would be expanded to contain enough information. All the other courts from Mario Hoops 3 on 3 have enough info on them so it shows that it can be expanded to a decent length. NSY (talk)

NSY, there is nothing that has "forced" the merge with the main place articles. Nor does it depend on how "popular" games are. MarioWiki:New articles#Level articles already states that all individual stages (including SSB stages, party boards, racing and other kinds of sports stages) be given a stand-alone article. Most splits should be done immediately due to the acceptable size of the article sections. Some still require a "layout" section (such as the Fortune Street series boards which are still merged), which would guarantee an acceptable size according to the policy. The article identifiers would need to be determined, I suggest these for all the boards/sports courts.

• Bowser's Castle (Fortune Street series)
• Bowser's Castle (Mario Sports Mix)
• Bowser's Castle (tennis court)
• Bowser's Castle (basketball court)
• Luigi's Mansion (Mario Sports Mix)
• Luigi's Mansion (basketball court)
• Luigi's Mansion (baseball field)
• Peach's Castle (Fortune Street series)

I think these titles would be acceptable. The bottom line is, you don't actually need to pass a proposal to split these articles; we just need users who are willing to do so. This proposal should best be withdrawn. – YoshiKong (talk) 04:05, 18 September 2016 (EDT)

Pixl Queen, Waffle Kingdom, and Croacuses (rulers)

Template:ProposalOutcome It may seem like common sense to do right now the first two, but the third one wasn't mentioned in the passed proposal. The Pixl Queen story had a major part of the story before Super Paper Mario happened. The Waffle Kingdom has many characters from it. As for the Croacuses, they are former rulers of Floro Sapiens. I would like all three (more like 6 because the croacuses rulers are four, but I could do just the actual three rulers not the prince. Either way, the Croacuses are together.) be split from the respective articles, yet still have some kind of a mention in them. Because how this proposal is set up, only one choice can be chosen by a voter.

Proposer: Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk)
Deadline: October 8, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Do all three

1. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) I want to do all three.

Do only two

If you vote here, please say which two. The 2 highest will be chosen.

Do only one

If you vote here, please say which one. The highest will be chosen.

1. Tails777 (talk) Of all the three listed, the Croacus family are the only ones who are physically seen in some way. While they are just photos, having info on their pasts as well as an idea of what they look like puts them at more of an advantage against the Pixel Queen and the Waffle Kingdom. So if I'm gonna pick and choose, I'd say that the Croacus family should get separate articles, mainly since they have a bit more to work off of.

Do none of them

1. AfternoonLight (talk) I want to say I will oppose!

Comments

Alright, the options in this proposal are a mess. You can't have specific conditions on each option, options need to be absolute and clear. And you can't make the proposal ignore a rule (saying users can only vote for one option). To be honest, this feels like three proposals crammed into one. Either split this into three TPP's in List of implied characters our outright remove this proposal. --™ The 'Shroom 22:45, 1 October 2016 (EDT)

Ok, I will let the proposal run during the weekend and sometime on Monday or early Tuesday, I will move it over to a more clear proposal(s) or cancel it all together. It all depends on the votes cast during this time. All those who do cast votes during this time will be talked to get them to vote in the proposal(s) if I do move it. Yoshi the SSM (talk)

Create or delete categories about an area's citizens

Template:ProposalOutcome As far as I know, there are only two categories that catalogue every inhabitant of an area: Category:Rogueport Denizens (for Rogueport) and Category:Glitzville Denizens (for Glitzville). It seems rather inconsistent for these two areas, densely populated as they are, to be the only ones to group an area's characters together. Such a category wouldn't be necessary for a lot of locations, but there are at least a few others, such as Toad Town, Flipside, Flopside, Shroom City (although that's a near-perfect overlap of Category:Mario Party Advance Characters), and possibly others. Since MarioWiki:Categories has a minimum amount of only five entries for a category to be created, this could theoretically get out of hand quickly, but there's nothing that's stopping us from moving the goalposts ourselves. At the same time, though, it's not as if the subcategories are all that necessary, since both the Rogueport and Glitzville citizens have a home in Category:Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door Characters, and they don't offera . So, let's put it to a vote: either we create new categories for other cities (within reason, unless it's discussed otherwise), delete the two categories that currently exist, or leave everything as it is and say that these are the only two areas that deserve categories.

Proposer: Time Turner (talk)
Deadline: October 2, 2016, 23:59 GMT Extended October 9 2016 23:59 GMT

Create categories

1. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) This is my primary choice. If I had the Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, I would be an actual helper rather than just a supporter.
2. Quizmelon (talk) My primary choice. It makes a lot more sense to create than delete, even if it does take more work.

Delete categories

1. Time Turner (talk) The characters that live in a given area can be listed on said area's article, and they can be included in a table that gives information about them; one example of this in action is this table on Goomba Village created by A gossip-loving Toad. Having these categories just doesn't seem beneficial to me.
2. AfternoonLight (talk) I agree with him! So, let's get rid of it and per him!
3. 3D Player 2010 (talk) I think we should do something for consistency, but I do not care what course of action we take.
4. Tucayo (talk) - A table would work much better. Per TT.
5. LudwigVon (talk) The table look way better for this than category. So, per Time Turner.
6. NSY (talk) Per all

Do nothing

1. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) This is my second choice. This wiki shouldn't just delete categories just because there is not enough of that category to make 5. If there is less then five areas in a game, would it make sense to delete those categories? The answer, unless they have no problem being with the game's characters.
2. AfternoonLight (talk) This is my second choice.
3. Quizmelon (talk) My second choice, I just don't think deleting is a good idea.

Comments

Just to clarify what the proposal is this effecting, which category? Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door characters, area characters, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door area charcters or another? Yoshi the SSM (talk)

It's referring to Category:Rogueport Denizens and Category:Glitzville Denizens, concerning whether they should be merged with the overall Category:PMTTYD Characters, and the "inhabitants" be listen on the area articles instead of having a category.

I'm quite neutral about it. 31 and 34 pages in the "denizens" categories would make a very large list, unlike the example that MW:CAT gives on Aquatic Attackers, which is a very small list and already makes navigation with a category unnecessary. This is why we have "[game] Levels" categories, and "[game] Bosses". Sure, they could already be listed on the game article (with the table that you suggested). But since there's already a lot of other kind information on the game page, relying on a long and detailed page list could become quite exhaustive to navigate with. That's why we have "levels" and "bosses" categories for games. – YoshiKong (talk) 03:11, 25 September 2016 (EDT)

I didn't mean that the game's article would have a giant table; that would easily become way too big. I was suggesting that every location would have a table that lists the NPCs in that location. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 18:26, 25 September 2016 (EDT)

@Yoshi the SSM: By voting for the "Do nothing" option, you're saying that the Rogueport and Glitzville categories are the only two that should exist, and that no other will be created. Since you seemed confused about the proposal's intentions, I wanted to make that clear. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 18:26, 25 September 2016 (EDT)

Let me remind you that it is the second choice I am taking, not the first. It means that I would rather have nothing done than a deletion. I also rather create categories rather than doing nothing. Also, it is fact that people don't become leaders in most situations. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 23:23, 25 September 2016 (EDT)

I don't see what's wrong with with having a category for the citizens as well as a table on the locations' articles. The Donkey Kong Country article has a list of all the levels and the game also has a category for its levels. One is a list of links and the other is a list of information. The categories for the Mario Party Advance characters wouldn't be too small, either. There are several locations in every city with many characters. Same for Paper Mario places. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

I just find it to be a needless division that makes it harder to find certain information without offering much in return (as per MarioWiki:Categories, only the lowest subcategory is placed on an article; anything higher isn't used). I don't think it's particularly beneficial to have a category for a given location's characters when those characters are already listed on the location's article. Anyone looking for its inhabitants would already go to the location's article, so the category doesn't offer any added convenience. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:22, 28 September 2016 (EDT)

I'm not sure if I really like the "anyone looking for its inhabits would already go to the location's article". Wouldn't this be akin to saying that we have a list of all Goombas in the infobox of the Goomba article; therefore, we don't need a Goomba category? Or we have a giant list of enemies, we don't need Category:Enemies? And so forth. I myself don't exactly see the harm in including a category like this, which does add one layer of organization without being frivolous. The rules say, if the area is too small to have enough characters for a category, let common sense dictate that case and don't create the category. That doesn't seem that hard to me. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 14:29, 29 September 2016 (EDT)

The Goomba article, at best, only has an undetailed list of species and characters in the infobox and a brief description of each of them smushed between the actual Goombas. A simple list alone is not what I want, but the table that I had suggested would be more helpful than the category. It's hardly unreasonable to say that someone who doesn't know the name of a character would go to the article of the location in which they appear, which is something that a category cannot do. The harm that I see in these categories is that the sky can actually be the limit: as I said, a category technically only needs a minimum of five entries to be accepted, and there are plenty of locations with more than five characters; common sense as to what the limit should be or which locations should or shouldn't get articles can vary wildly between people. Even if there's a rigid system that works perfectly and logically, the end result will be that there's a main category which contains the bulk of the characters and then a bunch of smaller categories that needlessly disperses a handful of other characters, making it harder for navigation. I do not see the benefit in having that. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 14:44, 29 September 2016 (EDT)

Move Yoshi, Donkey Kong and Wario (series) pages to * (franchise) and retool

Template:ProposalOutcome This has been bugging me for a bit, and looking at the series pages (which are, in general, a fully acknowledged mess) while tidying up the tables over the past day or two hammered that these three are simply not series - for DK and Yoshi in particular, the only commonality between them is that they feature the named character to some degree, usually in the title, being motley mixes of platformers, puzzles and "other". In addition, there are a bunch of series-within-these-series (including Wario) that get their own pages with nigh-identical content based on a subset of the page, in clear violation of MarioWiki:Once and only once (compare Donkey Kong (series) to Donkey Kong Country (series), for instance).

What I'm proposing is that we retool along these lines. Not deleting or merging anything for now, just splitting a couple of things and reducing duplication on the basis that this'll be enough to be getting on with, since the series pages have long been a triumph of ambition over accomplishment...:

Donkey Kong

Nearly everything is already on a (sub-)series page anyway. Complete the job, remove the MW:O&OO-violating material and look to make a proper overview

• Template:Fakelink - overview page. Initially this will probably be fairly short, but the ultimate goal is to have something along the lines of SethAllen623 (talk)'s reworking of Mario (franchise)
  • Donkey Kong (series) - basically, this becomes everything based on the original arcade game and the sequels thereof (so the arcade games and their ports, Game & Watches, Donkey Kong GB)
  • Donkey Kong Country (series) - in the short-term, not terribly different from now. (Currently includes DK64, and I would keep that. Indeed, I would merge...)
  • Donkey Kong Land (series) - frankly, I think this should be merged with the DKC series page, which it has to be viewed in the context of, but unless there's heavy support for that, keep it as it is for now
  • Diddy Kong Racing (series)
  • Donkey Konga (series)
  • Mario vs. Donkey Kong (series)
  • DK (series)
  • The remainder remain on Donkey Kong (franchise) for now

Yoshi

• Template:Fakelink - overview page. As above
  • Template:Fakelink - all the Yoshi+Baby Mario(/etc) games
  • Template:Fakelink - could use a better name, but Yoshi, Yoshi's Cookie, Tetris Attack
  • The remainder remain on Yoshi (franchise) for now

Wario

• Template:Fakelink - overview page. As with DK, almost all of the games are on the (sub-)series pages anyway, it's just enforcing MW:O&OO
  • Wario Land (series)
  • WarioWare
  • The remainder remain on Wario (franchise) for now

Proposer: Reboot (talk)
Deadline: 17 October 2016, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Reboot (talk) Per above
2. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) Have those three as franchises? Yes. Have Donkey Kong Land part of the Donkey Kong Country? Best to keep them separate. How to do the franchises? Just like Mario (franchise). Why do I support the idea of making like the Mario (franchise)? Franchises must be similar in appearance. Series can be better, but I don't care much what happens to them. Also, they are more than just series. If you were to look at Super Smash Bros. (series), you will find out that their symbol is the franchise they are from. How long this will take to get completely done? Quite a while. 5th year of the Nintendo Direct will come before this is completed and probably the NX will come before this is 100% completed, but this last one is a bit of a stretch since the official date isn't known and this should take more than a month to do. Short answer is, I support the decision to do the proposal.
3. Luigi 64DD (talk) This sounds like a good idea to me. About merging the DKC series and the DKL series, it sounds like a good idea because they are so similar, but I'm not sure because of the name difference.
4. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) Per all.
5. AfternoonLight (talk) Mario series = Mario franchise! So, let's try it!
6. Fawfulfury65 (talk) Per above. Also, I want to comment that I understand the reasoning behind wanting to merge the DKC and DKL series, even though I don't like the idea. While it's true that the DKL games are in no way remakes of the DKC games, they do have the same protagonists and antagonists, which make up the main bulk of the Donkey Kong Country (series) article. If we put that info in the DKL article, which is awfully short without it, the information would be repeated.

Comments

3D Player 2010: I genuinely don't think you understand what I'm suggesting. RIGHT NOW, "the Arcade based Donkey Kong games including the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series" are "lumped" "in with the more standard Donkey Kong series". I am not suggesting getting rid of, e.g., Mario vs. Donkey Kong (series) - note the words "not deleting or merging anything" as part of the proposal. Indeed, I'm suggesting creating a page JUST for "the Arcade based Donkey Kong games" at Donkey Kong (series), which is currently the "lump everything in" page. If this passes, there will be more pages, not fewer, but with less duplication [compare Donkey Kong (series)#1990-2000 and Donkey Kong Country (series)#Original titles as they presently stand). The retooling of what was "Mario (series)" and is now Mario (franchise) did not obliterate, for instance, the list of games on Super Mario (series). - Reboot (talk) 01:22, 12 October 2016 (EDT)

@Reboot: If it is okay with you, I will get to work on changing the Yoshi series to the Yoshi franchise as soon as this proposal passes. This would include creating two pages, so I have to ask. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 10:18, 17 October 2016 (EDT)

Okay. I want to do DK first anyway. - Reboot (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2016 (EDT)

Okay. I will get the first part done as soon as possible. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 17:24, 18 October 2016 (EDT)

Change the rules of BJAODN

Template:ProposalOutcome I think that we should change 5 rules of BJAODN to allow things even funnier to happen.

Proposed Rule Changes:

#00ff00

#ff0000

The bad jokes and other deleted nonsense archive is the fun and controversy archive on the super #ff0000#00ff00 wiki. Its purpose? To have the most bad works documented. for fun!

On a more serious note, this archive was created to store vandalism and poor writing that users consider to be humorous. The archive is for anyone to edit, as long as the added content satisfies one condition: it must be funny.

Before editing, please read the following rules:

• This is not a general vandalism archive.

  While it is true that what may be considered "humorous" is fairly subjective, common sense should play a part here. The Mario article being replaced with something along the lines of "MARIO IS A [insert swear word here]" is not funny; it is childish and obnoxious.

• Do not add impertinent content to the archive.

  As stated above, information containing vandalism and poor writing is the only type of content that is acceptable to add here. Such content may include entire articles, sections of articles, or "joke" proposals, but may only be taken from valid wiki articles or MarioWiki:Proposals. Content derived from user talk pages or any other namespace is not allowed under any circumstances and will be removed on sight.

• Users reserve the right to remove content which they wrote.

  The focus of this archive is to store vandalism and poorly written material deemed to be humorous. However, there is an exception: if something you wrote happens to be archived here, you have the right to remove it if you wish for it not to be there (this obviously does not apply in the case of blatant vandalism). For this reason, there should not be any edit warring between users over any specific section being removed.

• Newbie bashing is not tolerated.

  There is a difference between poorly written articles that new users may be susceptible to creating and something so confusing and devoid of information that you become suspicious of the writer's sanity. We accept only the latter variety in this archive. #00ff00

• Don't write badly on purpose.

  #ff0000#00ff00 create all-new material just to add to the archives, #00ff00 don't alter existing material to "make it funnier" #00ff00, and definitely don't vandalize actual articles in order to get them into BJAODN, because you will be punished.

Here are a few tips for organizing BJAODN pages:

• Entries should be placed in alphabetical order.
• Entries that have obviously bogus Red Links should be replaced with the {{fakelink|}} template, Template:Fakelink.
• Commentary is permitted, but users should show restraint in this matter. Commentary should make the entries funnier, and commenting just for the sake of commenting will be removed#ff0000.
• You don't need to ask permission to add something.

Summary of ideas:

• The first rule change is basically fixing a typo in the page.
• The second rule change creates an exception to a rule. I understand why that rule exists, as we are trying to not offend people, but if someone thinks that something they wrote in the past when they themselves were a newbie, deserves to be added, why not? If having it added would truly offend them, then they would not add it. It's that simple.
• Some people might have a desire to be creative with BJAODN entries. Currently, the rules do not allow that. The third rule change allows users to be creative, and expands what can be added to BJAODN, which would make BJAODN even funnier.
• Sometimes BJAODN content is written with minor errors added onto the existing nonsense. I think we should cut out the minor errors, and simply leave only the nonsense remaining. The fourth rule change does just that, allowing users to fix spelling and wiki formatting errors in BJAODN entries, so that the entries become entirely nonsense.
• The fifth rule change allows users to start conversations about how they feel about BJAODN entries. Having such conversations would make things funnier, by allowing users to talk about the nonsense, in addition to the nonsense already being there.

If necessary, we can implement a rule similar to the Userspace policy where excessive BJAODN editing is a warnable offense, so that people do not overdo it, or create an account just to participate.

Proposer: 3D Player 2010 (talk)
Deadline: October 27, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. 3D Player 2010 (talk) per proposal

Oppose

1. Glowsquid (talk) My reasoning below.
2. LudwigVon (talk) Per Glowsquid.
3. AfternoonLight (talk) Per Glow!
4. Reboot (talk) Per Glowsquid.
5. Baby Luigi (talk) Having a huge all-or-nothing proposal to "fix" some of BJAODN's "flaws" is not the right way to go: for example, the first change you proposed was fixing the intentionally misspelled "mairo", so that's something I'm already against as it goes against the point of that sentence. Another thing is, we strictly forbid the creation of new content to go into this page for a reason: people will end up vandalizing pages and writing poorly on purpose just to get an entry on this page because they think they're "funny XD", as opposed to unintentionally funny content due to the result of genuine intentions but terribad bad execution. A lot of these fixes are just not suitable for proposal format, and they're better off with a regular discussion on the BJAODN's talk page. In my opinion, none of these changes would be beneficial to the BJAODN and they add several layers of unnecessary complexity to what should be an easy-to-understand thing: just take badly written stuff that made you laugh and at it on there.
6. Bazooka Mario (talk) Ninja: Very bad idea. I see the BJAODN rules as is as fine. One, the misspelling of "Mario" is intentional, as inferred from the bad grammar. We also have had a proposal that wanted to allow users to write badly on purpose, which massively failed. The reasons I'm opposing are the same as that one: allowing users to intentionally create content for BJAODN defeats the entire purpose of its humor. It exists to surprise and amuse users that someone had written a part and had the poor judgement to believe that it is acceptable. This proposal promotes bad edits, which is goes against the core of what this wiki is supposed to be about. Sure, maybe some of the stuff in BJAODN are Poe's Law in action, but this proposal would just open the floodgates and, in my opinion, ruin BJAODN since the surprise is gone. There is nothing to gain from this proposal except allowing users to have a reason to write badly. Anyhow, there isn't a rule against people adding their own poor writing from years ago, as it still retains BJAODN's purpose. The conversations about BJAODN should also be short and sweet or else they'll just be a stick in the mud and weaken the effect of the entry itself. There isn't a subjective rule, but conversations go on other venues. Same thing for writing bad on purpose.
7. Alex95 (talk) Per all oppose.
8. YoshiKong (talk) – Per everyone.

Comments

Arght, so:

-The typo is intentional.
-If someone wants to add their own contributions to the archive, of course they can do that. It's an obvious exception that does not need to be said.
-BJAODN's whole point is showcasing well-meaning errors along with the rare bit of clever vandalism. When I proposed the page in like... 2009, I think?... one of my argument is that it could even be faintly educational by showing people what not to do. Just allowing anyone to shit up the page not only defeats any pratical purpose it might have, but also open the floodgates for unfunny monkeycheese; to recycle what I said in an earlier proposal, past attempts to add original material on BJAODN were less funny than a documentary on Darfur war refugee camps.
-BJAODN is meant to be an archive of crap. Allowing people to fix errors runs counter to its whole point.
-Excessive conversations were agreed to be removed in forum discussions because they were unfunny and made navigation more tedious.

I do not agree with any of the changes proposed. --Glowsquid (talk) 19:36, 19 October 2016 (EDT)

I probably did not think through the full effect of the changes I am suggesting would entail. Under normal circumstances, I would withdraw this proposal. However, this is not a normal circumstance. Since so many oppose votes have already been cast, I cannot withdraw this proposal, due to rule 4 "Talk page proposals may be closed by the proposer at any time if both the support and the oppose sides each have fewer than five votes." 3D Player 2010 20:17, 19 October 2016 (EDT)

Your quote literally has the term "talk page proposals" in it. This is not a talk page proposal. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 20:18, 19 October 2016 (EDT)

Prohibit the use of {{color}}, {{color-link}}, {{color-link-piped}} and {{Color-link-external}} other than for legibility reasons

Template:ProposalOutcome I just got done de-{{color-link}}ing the various Mario Party series templates (e.g. {{MP1}}), because the character names were picked out in "relevant" colours (e.g., Mario in red). Not only was this inconsistent with basically every other series template, but a lot of the uses were at best borderline illegible, with colours like yellow, gold and limegreen against light yellow. This isn't the only example of colours like those being used across MarioWiki, and it's always random and frequently hard-to-read. Not to mention that picking out a {{color-link}} in red breaks one of the most basic wiki precepts, since "redlinks" are empty/uncreated pages.

So I'm suggesting that it's just stopped. The only valid use of these templates should be where the default text colour would be hard (or impossible) to read against a background - e.g., the SMM3DS link in the footer of {{SMM}} against the dark red, the external links in the right column of List of official Super Mario Maker courses against the SMB sky blue (since it was decided that would be the best colour to put the costume sprites against on Costume Mario) or a couple of the rows in the table on Crystal Stars. No "...while limegreen jumps higher..." stuff any more.

EDIT: This will not apply to Template:Fakelink or Template:Fakelink pages (including non-mainspace talk).

EDIT2: Okay, I think some further clarification is needed - I'm not suggesting removing all coloured text or backgrounds from the wiki as certain users seem to think. What I *am* saying is that links or text should not be coloured using these templates in Skittles-like fashion. It looks unprofessional, removes a degree of Wiki functionality, is frequently near-illegible and could cause further legibility problems if a "dark mode" is ever created (as is occasionally requested), whereupon the legibility problem would flip for those users such that dark colours specified in ordinary text with these templates would be illegible to them. They're a blunt instrument that isn't particularly well-suited to anything except colouring text in tables, navboxes and infoboxes - and in the latter cases, the colours should probably be specified with CSS site-wide rather than template-by-template (in the same way they already are to some extent for navigation templates), and in the former case they should be primarily specified alongside the table background (and if there's no background specified, that's bad for the same reason it's bad in text).

Proposer: Reboot (talk)
Deadline: November 1, 2016 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Reboot (talk) Per me.

Oppose

1. 3D Player 2010 (talk) This proposal, as it is worded, will apply to more than just template and mainspace articles, but also to userpages, signatures, and not just arbitrary uses, but also to lists where coloring is used to signify categories of some kind, for example. This proposal is simply way too broad in application by word of suggestion, that I cannot support it.
2. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) {A Toad says, “Hey! Mario! Hurry! Hurry!” Mario jumps into the castle then says Luigi out loud. Luigi walks into the castle finishing getting ready. A Toad says, “It’s a meeting! Big meeting! You’ve gotta hurry, please! Everyone’s wating, Mario! In the conference hall! …Oh. Luigi came too. Super...."} Bowser's Inside Story with commentary from me. If games do this, why does this wiki don't do this? Makes no sense to me. Oppose.
3. The RPG Gamer (talk) Per Yoshi the SSM.
4. Luigi 64DD (talk) Coloring should not be used in navigation templates or sentences like the proposal's example about Luigi jumping. However, it should be used in situations like the two examples Megadardery put below. This proposal is too general for me to support for the reasons in the first two sentences.
5. SuperYoshi1234 (talk) Per all.
6. Baby Luigi (talk) I like some of the ideas here, such as banning color-link text in character sections in the Mario Party templates (which you already took care of before you started this proposal), but I don't think proposals are the best idea to handle misuse of colored text. It's better if we go along by case-by-case basis. I'd like to point out that yes, we always strive to be legible in the first place, so saying we can't use colored text except for legibility reasons is a bit redundant with already what we want to do and thus that part doesn't really need to be proposed. I'd also like to per Bazooka Mario's comment as well.
7. Bazooka Mario (talk) Per Luigi 64DD and Baby Luigi. 3D Player 2010 misses the point and I've argued against Yoshi the Space Station Manager's position on color text, that the colors serve purely a gameplay purpose (which is highlighting / emphasis for the player) that doesn't translate well to the wiki (make it look garish and distracting). If emphasis for the readers' curiosities is so important, then just make them regular links, which can also be piped for clarification (e.g. It ate that fat man!). I also believe legibility is already something we do. The policy on navigation templates already assumes the navigation templates use plain blue links so there's that. I do support removing the color links on Mario Party navigational templates, Mario Kart character galleries, adjusting color links in 3D World's character gallery to make them black, and removing color links on Mario Party character galleries (while restructuring their table to be color-coded so we keep how the games color-code their characters, but not on minigame list articles or on quotes where colors serve a meaningful purpose like Fawful's battle quotes rather than simply highlighting important information.
8. Alex95 (talk) I'll give a per all.

Comments

Regardless of the side implications that this proposal may include, it seems that it is just a shot in the foot. Although I might agree on that some applications of the colors are terrible, others are pleasant, because the characters were depicted with these colors in-game. There is absolutely no need to outright ban them.--

18:21, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

And yet, in your "pleasant" example, "Princess Daisy" is only barely legible. I very much doubt a light-orange/yellow on white is in the game. - Reboot (talk) 18:35, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

To be honest, I think the colors on Mario Kart 64#Drivers are fine, because they are used to present information categories that, in my opinion, could not be presented any better than the way it is now. 3D Player 2010 18:31, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

Like the vast majority of examples. With a background colour, or with text. Which wouldn't invoke red/green colourblindness problems. (I have, however, clarified above regarding User & Talk pages, since it wasn't my intent to change anything regarding those). - Reboot (talk) 18:35, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@Yoshi the Space Station Manager: So, what about the redlink problem? And are you planning to go through the whole wiki and colour every "Mario" red? - Reboot (talk) 18:40, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

No, I am not going to change every instance of Mario to red. The redlink problem you're talking about; MarioWiki:Maintenance has a place to find redlinks. There is also a problem with your plan. I was looking at a userbox colored black. If it didn't have white words, one would have to highlight it to read it. Probably very limited that there is black places (more than just userboxes), but I want you to be aware of this. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

And the vast majority of users will never look at Special:Wantedpages. But they will read articles, and if they see a red link, if they're at all familiar with Wikipedia, MarioWiki, etc they'll realise it's a "dead" link and possibly be tempted to fill it out if they're familiar with the topic. The more links that don't follow the standard colour coding, the less chance that has of happening. It actively harms the wiki. - Reboot (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

I find it interesting that you don't like red links, yet you have red links all over the place. A simple fix would be to create a userpage for your red links that you have. Any reason why you haven't created a userpage? Yoshi the SSM (talk) 20:28, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

I don't see the need for one. My userspace isn't in the encyclopaedic portion of MW, and I'd rather not waste the site's bandwidth & CPU with a bunch of userboxes that serve no purpose. - Reboot (talk) 20:31, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

I doesn't have to be very long. Look at Steve's. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 20:34, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@YTSSM: Reboot clarified above that he didn't intend this proposal to cascade onto userspace pages, so userboxes aren't an issue to be concerned about here. – YoshiKong ^(talk) 18:54, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@YoshiKong: I said after that more than just userboxes. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:04, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

...do you know what "for legibility reasons" means? If you don't, you should withdraw your vote. - Reboot (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@Reboot: There is another problem which new users will have. New users don't know how to color code yet, so they will be putting down blue links instead of black links. As a matter of fact, I learned how to color code when I wrote my oppose vote. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:20, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

And they SHOULD be putting down blue links! That is, as they say, not a bug but a feature. - Reboot (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

Let me quote you: "the external links in the right column of List of official Super Mario Maker courses against the SMB sky blue (since it was decided that would be the best colour to put the costume sprites against on Costume Mario)". You intend to make them a different color. That would mean that you want all links to be the same. At least, that is what is implied. The most obvious choice of color would be black since it is the default color of regular text. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:33, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

Actually, that relates (1) to external links, since the external link colour is very nearly the same colour as the background there, so the redlink thing doesn't apply and (2) easily falls under "for legibility reasons" in the same way that text on a black background should not be black. - Reboot (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

The Mario Party 3 example looks mostly fine to me, and frankly, Princess Daisy was only made a little harder to read. But if there is a color coding that makes it incredibly hard to read, it should be removed. I disapprove of YSSM's idea because, while it may be good for in game text, it's not good for Mario Wiki's encyclopedic appearance. Lastly, I think color coding should be removed from navigation templates and generally from paragraphs in articles, but situations like the MP3 example are fine. -- (talk · edits) 18:58, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@Luigi 64DD: I did not suggest that we should change the coding one bit. Here for clarification for others too. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:04, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@YSSM I think you misunderstood me. I'm not talking about coding. I'm talking about this: "In Luigi's Mansion, Mario's Cap is one of the five items that Mario lost, and Luigi must bring it to Madame Clairvoya to receive information regarding Mario's whereabouts." That example is from Mario's Cap article. I added colors to it to demonstrate. If that is what you are saying, then I disagree with it. -- (talk · edits) 19:10, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@Luigi 64DD: Like I said, I don't plan on changing every instance of Mario to red. For starters, that will be ridicules. Secondly, that is not what I suggested (as you can see Mario and Luigi not having color all the time in the passage). Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:15, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

Then what are you suggesting? Having coloring for quotes that had coloring in the games? -- (talk · edits) 19:18, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

To keep color coding how it is. Not to go around every article and change every color code to black. Direct quotes don't have to be color coded as the text in game. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:21, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

There are very few at the moment. Partly because most of them have been killed over time. Hence why stamping it out entirely is an option. - Reboot (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

@YSSM Oh...The quote you put is misleading, because coloring is not used in sentences on this wiki. The quote made me think you were suggesting doing that. That's also why Reboot thought you wanted to change every instance of Mario to red before you clarified. -- (talk · edits) 19:31, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

Bottom line is: I can't support this since the implied statements. And now that I started using color coding, I don't think that a hard time reading may be a bad idea. Except in cases where it is impossible. Do that (and not near impossible), and I might accept. Also, don't have any implied statements. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:39, 25 October 2016 (EDT) Actually, I don't think it should happen because I like it how some things are colored. I not going to support something that will get rid of it even at a small level. It will lead to many things. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 19:47, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

Concerning EDIT2: Seeing as the examples that I do not think the color should be removed in use the templates, I am not changing my vote.-- (talk · edits) 20:08, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

While I do agree that anyone who ever coded in css yellow text against the white wiki background should be shot, I also believe that parts of this proposal isn't needed and writing a proposal to end the trend of specific cases here and there isn't wieldly, especially when all the formatting you suggested should already be inline with the common rules of color theory and design and it's simply because people who edit this wiki either didn't caught up with color design, were ignorant of it, or just didn't care about it. Your "legibility" reasons, it's incredibly broad and vague. Define what it means. Does it mean a certain degree of readability, or does it mean passing the contrast test? To me, deep gold on yellow isn't that illegible, and it's easily fixable to by using an even deeper orange or a darker yellow, something that is compromisable. I don't think the colors should be used in navtemplates (like entries such as "Mario" and whatever), but I do believe they should be kept on the Mario Party character gallery pages, as well as the color formatting used in the Mario Kart 8 article. I'd also argue for some cases of using red-text: in Mario's case, where red text is most commonly used, of course people would know Mario's page is already created, and while people on mobile suffer from this as they can't hover over the link, if you hover over a dead link, it links to something different than a real link, which is how I even learned red links are dead in the first place.

ie I think this is a complex problem that a proposal itself isn't the best tool for deciding on an entirely black or white basis. I feel like more discussion should have been made before you jumped to making a proposal abolishing this and that color links which have their uses, especially when used to highlight differences between such and such so people can more easily identify what is what. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:35, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

I don't support the blanket thrust this proposal has (mainly because it may have unforeseen effects), but I'm for limiting color use a bit. I don't think there's really a need to give those links a different color, but this proposal's provisions can cover aspects not intended (would List of Mario Party 5 minigames be affected?). Anyhow, copying game text detail-by-detail which includes the colors such as in Yoshi the Space Station Manager's example or in areas like Speak Up bonus panels text doesn't translate well at all since they're two very different media. The game needs to highlight such text for purely gameplay reasons, to highlight important information for the player. For an example, check this revision in WiKirby. This text is colored exactly how it appears in game, but this is garish in the wiki and greatly hinders legibility. On the other hand, it might be helpful to color some quotes by, say, Fawful to fully understand the context. Some words he says are either red or green. For example, "You have readiness for red" If these words don't have a random color (such as THIS always being red), then it would make sense to give those words a color. Finally, I don't find color text too harmful on the eyes, though gold-yellow and light gray contrast very poorly with white. While Mario Party and Super Mario 3D World somewhat has some reason for its colors, since those colors are assigned and used, there is little reason we should give color links to characters in Mario Kart games. However, those color links aren't even necessary or even good in the 3D World example I gave because the contrast is very poor and we already have color codes in the form of background color. I think in the end, we'll have to decide a case-by-case rather than impose a blanket removal. In the end, I do support removing some color links and probably just replacing them with something more appropriate like a table with color-coded pastel backgrounds when possible. That means rearranging the character lists in the Mario Party articles (the one Megadardery (talk) provided can be easily changed into a colorful table while we nix the color links or at least adjust them to make them legible in the color table), removing the character-specific color links in the navigation template, removing most color links in flavor text, and keeping the color links that do serve a purpose (such as in List of Mario Party 5 minigames and potentially in Fawful quotes and other quotes that use colors for context reasons) intact. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:44, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

I'd also say that sometimes you need to use color links in the case of tables but again, it's supposed to be part of the "legibility" part of the proposal which is so broadly and vaguely defined that I feel like it was slapped in as a side-note merely to address comments that may bring it up as a legit criticism of this proposal rather than specify what will be done about them. Which all turns around to my case-by-case argument again. Ray Trace^(T|C) 22:03, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

Allow .APNGs and create a notice template related to them

Template:ProposalOutcome This proposal will not replace the .gif format as the preferred animated format. Instead, it will allow .apngs only in cases where there is a clear benefit to using them.

Examples of images negatively affected by our GIF-only policy. Note the rough border edges.

This proposal will overturn this one and will likely reinstate this proposal that attempted to create a notice for APNG images.

We briefly had some .apngs running around in this wiki, though we have disallowed them mainly because of lack of universal browser support (notably, in Chrome).

The current animated format we use and prefer, .gif, however, is highly flawed. Not to mention, it's very outdated. This is because it supports only 256 different colors, making the images indexed, which isn't really much of an issue because most sprites are below this format. It also does not allow semi-transparent values, thus making it "all-or-nothing". It also usually isn't a problem, but recently, we have several images that use semi-transparent values, but are forced into a .gif format, thus greatly reducing the quality of these images. It also forces the transparency to look horrible and resemble a poorly-cropped image that goes against our own policy on transparent images. Arguably, this forced change also goes against our aim to give game-accurate impressions.

APNGs are intended to be a replacement for the outdated .gif images, but again, its biggest issue is that it lacks universal browser support, as in the comments before. Otherwise, for any other browser that doesn't support APNG I don't think we should have to bend backwards to stick to a superseded format. Still, there is a sizeable amount of browsers that don't support .apngs, and it has been shown to me that a majority of users here are Chrome, so we should not go full-on transition to .apng. Additionally, thumbnails cannot be rendered as animated when they're .apng images due to technical limitations, so they may not be immediately apparent since many images are used as thumbnails.

If this proposal passes, we'll have to create a notice template as in this proposal (see comments section). I also don't think we should get out of our way to convert every single .gif to .apng either, but we have to, at the minimum, allow .apngs. We might have gotten away with .gifs due to the simplicity of most sprites, but we have some recent games that use sprites that don't transition well into .gif at all, which includes Wario Land: Shake It! and Paper Mario: Color Splash and we have some miscellaneous animated images as shown here that would benefit from staying as an .apng rather than a .gif.

In brief:

• This proposal allows .apngs because of transparency and indexing issues with .gif. .gif is an outdated format, and it shows.
• A template on apngs will be created to warn users that use browsers without .apng support.
• This proposal does not intend that .gifs must be replaced with .apngs. In fact, most .gifs should remain the as is. We use .apngs only when they have a clear advantage, which is accurately preserving colors and transparency values.

Proposer: Bazooka Mario (talk)
Deadline: November 25, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Bazooka Mario (talk)
2. Baby Luigi (talk) Per proposal
3. Shokora (talk) – If Porple is willing, this has my support.
4. Mister Wu (talk) The palette of the GIF format was a bit worrying, as I had noticed that some colors were indeed being replaced by different ones. Since I like to have images as faithful to the original ones as possible within the upload limits, definitely supporting this proposal!
5. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) I support. Per all
6. Luigi 64DD (talk) Per all, especially Shokora.
7. Alex95 (talk) I don't even know what APNG is, or whether my browser can run it, but why not? It sounds useful. Get with the times, Mario Wiki!
8. Eldritchdraaks (talk) I support allowing APNG, but gifs should remain the preferred format because of it's universal support across all devices and browsers and image editing programs.

Comments

Actually, if APNG images saved as .png files are used instead, the browsers that don't support APNG images can still show the first frame. Should we recommend APNG images in .png files instead?--Mister Wu (talk) 20:53, 18 November 2016 (EST)

I don't think that would be necessary. We should be using .apng only when it is absolutely needed, like those Color Splash sprite animations. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 22:36, 18 November 2016 (EST)

By the way, would it be affordable to use javascripts that display APNGs on browsers with HTML5 canvas support? Just an afterthought, though... --A gossip-loving Toad (talk) 23:24, 18 November 2016 (EST)

That'll be something to ask Steve, and that's assuming he's on board with this (I hope he is). It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 23:35, 18 November 2016 (EST)

Though I support uploading APNGs, each should have a gif version uploaded as well. Even though it's supported by Firefox, Safari, and soon Chrome, there are far more browsers that don't support it. Gif, while not as great, is supported across all devices and browsers, as well as being easy to make. In most cases the low quality doesn't matter. I've been uploading a fair amount of the color splash gifs lately, along with Mister Wu. For their purposes to show the enemy idle animations, the gifs do just fine. But, I agree that it would be great to save the animation from the wiki to the desktop and keep its full quality from the sprite sheet. In such case, we could add a link on the gif file pages that can take you to the APNG version. I use Microsoft Edge on my laptop, and Dolphin on my phone, and neither of those support APNG to my knowledge.-- 00:00, 19 November 2016 (EST)

The Paper Mario Color Splash idle animations are the primary reasons for this proposal. The .gifs aren't fine to me because they index the transparency so the image looks very bad when placed against a background. Yeah, I don't think either Edge or Dolphin support apngs but most major browsers do, so I think we should settle on a compromise. .gifs should still be the most common format but where .apng is clearly better, it should be used. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 00:07, 19 November 2016 (EST)

53% of our visitors use Chrome. Just because there is a bug report for APNG support in Chrome (as there has always been) doesn't mean they have any intention of actually including it. So you can think of this proposal as asking, "Should we break animated images for the majority of our visitors?" Even if Google comes out and says they will support it, I wouldn't do anything until we can actually see it in action on both desktop and mobile. --Steve (talk) 01:02, 19 November 2016 (EST)

Okey, good point. I've reworded the proposal to not replace .gif as the preferred format, but merely to allow animated .pngs in cases where preserving transparency and colors is a big benefit. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 01:09, 19 November 2016 (EST)

After adding-in IE, Edge, and some miscellaneous browsers that don't support APNG, the image animations wouldn't work for about 60% of visitors. I understand your concerns about image quality, but is it really worth breaking the animation for 60% of people so that 40% can see it in higher-quality? Mainspace articles should work the same for nearly everyone. It's a whole different story if Chrome starts supporting it, but we would have to wait for that to happen first. --Steve (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2016 (EST)

Hm, probably not. I would almost recommend making .apngs separate, which would work fairly well for the animated sticker images, but I realized that'll mean reuploading all those Color Splash enemies as .apngs as well AND providing .gifs and static .pngs to boot. Not a pretty picture. Anyhow, probably withdraw the proposal. Thanks, Google. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 01:51, 19 November 2016 (EST)

My Browser doesn't support OGGs on this wiki. If I can handle that (even though I will never use it), then I can handle not being able to see APNGs. But I do agree that GIFs and APNGs have links to each other. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 01:53, 19 November 2016 (EST)

.oggs aren't as widespread as images though, so I think that's something we can conveniently ignore. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 01:56, 19 November 2016 (EST)

That's why I said it depends on Chrome. Edge is such a small percentage that we wouldn't wait for their support. --Steve (talk) 02:00, 19 November 2016 (EST)

I would like to say that I use Microsoft Edge. Also, Paint Guy Idle Animation has a very small but noticeable bad look. It only comes when I look at it very carefully. But after seeing the flaw, I think that this flaw should not exist even if it isn't noticeable. One thing I don't really understand is why browsers don't support APNGs, but support PNGs. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 01:15, 19 November 2016 (EST)

The Paint Guy idle is only meant to be temporary. I knew it was bad when I made it, but I had no other options. 01:25, 19 November 2016 (EST)