MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

From the Super Mario Wiki, the Mario encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
 
Line 1: Line 1:
{{/Header}}
{{/Header}}
==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
 
''None at the moment.''
=== Get rid of or heavily restrict the "Subject origin" parameter ===
 
I can already sense a murmur rising in the crowd, but hear me out. I've made it no secret on here that [[Template_talk:Species_infobox#Point_of_derived_subject.2Fsubject_origin.3F|I don't really like the Subject origin parameter]] on the [[Template:Species infobox|species infobox]]. The term "subject origin" is a bit of a misnomer. It really should've been called "design inspiration", because rather than explaining where the subject comes from ''in pieces of media'', it's only ever been used in instances where the subject took any sort of inspiration from another entity, either real or fictional. If that sounds oddly broad... then yes, it ''is'' '''very''' broad.
 
This line of reasoning is used for bizarre classifications such as [[Mincer]]s being derived from [[Zinger]]s because they're both spiky enemies (is Mincer even an enemy, or just an obstacle?) that follow specific paths, or every "Bone" enemy variant being derived from [[Dry Bones]] even if they don't actually fall apart. There's even a few cases where "subject origin" has taken priority over confirmed relatedness between species, despite the term not in itself suggesting a close relationship between subjects, thus ''losing'' useful information in the infobox in these cases (e.g. [[Rocky Wrench]]es which were formerly [[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]s, [[Whomp]]s which are said to be "cousins" of [[Thwomp]]s, [[Krumple]]s being blue Kremlings that follow the same naming scheme as their predecessors [[Krusha]] and [[Kruncha]]).
 
The most awkward instances, however, are easily the instances of a subject being "derived" from a generic concept. [[Kleptoad]]s, though based on [[frog]]s, have little to no relevance to any of the generic instances of frogs present in the Mario franchise. Similarly, [[Rabbid]]s are entirely separated from the Mario series' depictions of [[rabbit]]s, not only because they don't act like generic rabbits in the Mario series, but also because they're not even from the same ''franchise''. It's not even restricted to entities that actually ''have'' pages on the Mario Wiki. [[Kremling]]s are stated to originate from "crocodilians", a page that [[:Category:Crocodilians|only exists as a category]], [[Crazee Dayzee]]s are derived from "flowers" (which are in a similar situation), and [[Krimp]]s are listed as being derived from "dogs". Who's to say [[Boo]]s aren't derived from "ghosts", or that [[Flaptack]]s don't have "bird" as a subject origin, or that [[Octoomba]]s aren't based off of both "aliens" and "octopuses"?
 
I hope you can see that the unrestricted references to generic or real-world species at the very least are a problem. But even for non-generic subject origins, the vast majority of the time (I'm tempted to say all of the time, but there could be an instance I'm struggling to think of that doesn't fall under this), this kind of info is covered sufficiently in the introductory paragraph, or the General information/Appearance section when applicable. I propose we deal with this in one of the following ways:
 
'''Option 1:''' Axe the "subject origin" parameter entirely. (My primary choice)<br>
'''Option 2:''' Ban usage of subject origin to refer to generic species, in addition to switching priority of "Related" and "Subject origin/Derived subjects". (I'm fine with this)<br>
'''Option 3:''' Simply ban usage of citing generic species as the subject origin.<br>
'''Option 4:''' Ban usage of subject origin to refer to species from the ''Mario'' franchise.<br>
'''Option 5:''' Just switch priority of "Related" and "Subject origin/Derived subjects"
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|DrippingYellow}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
==== Option 1 ====
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} As derived from my proposal.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal
#{{User|7feetunder}} This parameter is, as it is currently written, not well defined at all. [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Species_infobox&diff=prev&oldid=3968459 It was originally] meant to be ''only'' for connections to real-world species, but was [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Species_infobox&diff=next&oldid=3968459 given a wishy-washy, vague rewording] so it could be used to make flimsy claims like [[Bazuka]] being based on [[Kutlass]] because they're both [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Bazuka&diff=prev&oldid=3976730 "small Kremlings with oversized weapons"] or the aforementioned Mincer thing (which I was unaware of before this proposal).
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, and especially per 7feetunder. It's an awkwardly named, unnecessarily confusing, arbitrarily used, unhelpfully broad parameter that feels like it's spiralled and descended from its [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Fix how we handle infobox relations on generic species|intended purpose]] to uselessness (plus random speculation at worst), and it feels weird for the fictional species that something's a variant of (like with [[Galoomba]]) and debatably necessary listings for the generic real thing it's based on (like with [[Crazee Dayzee]] and [[Moo Moo]]) to use the same parameter. In short, this subject is the origin of much confusion, and little good can be derived from it.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per all and my comments below.
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} After enough consideration, I'll go with this option. This category got flanderized.
#{{User|Somethingone}} As the person responsible for revitalizing the parameter in the first place (it was used before my proposal and fell off before my proposal too), sure. Just as long as the real world species are kept out of the "comparable" parameter.
 
==== Option 2 ====
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Secondary choice.
 
==== Option 3 ====
 
==== Option 4 ====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I think, right now, it's a little confusing, myself. Back when I thought to have the parameter [[Template talk:Species infobox#Repurposing subject origin?|revived]], I thought of only using it for genericized subjects, and this option seems to be closest to what I had in mind. For that matter, we don't need to list every single variant of something under derived subjects; just the base version is fine. I'd rather not go back to listing generic subjects broadly listed under comparable again, and insist that the parameter would benefit from focus.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Second choice - my original intent with that old proposal.
 
==== Option 5 ====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Second choice
 
==== Do nothing ====
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - I don't really see the issue. If anything, the "relatives" parameter not having directional counterparts is the weakest link. Plus the "listing Galoombas as Goomba relatives rather than variants because a source distinguished them from each other and happened to used the word 'related'"-type of thing might be itself getting out of hand...
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per Doc
<s>#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick.</s>
 
==== Comments ====
Oh, looks like I'm involved with this proposal to some degree. You see; I was the one who did the Kremling edit and especially the recent Dry Bones edits. For the latter, my explanation is that subject origin refers to things based on another entity ''while not actually being the entity.'' For example, Galoombas have been considered not Goombas, but they were meant to be inspired by them and even their [[Galoomba#Names in other languages|name]] reflects it. There are various subjects that are definitely inspired, while not considered relatives of the original entity. Goombrats are weird, because they are stated to be relatives, although it's not made clear if they are a variant, as ''Super Mario Run'' loved to throw a wrench at us. The initial existence of subject origin appeared to be more generic species that had multiple fictional variants off of it. I always had this issue with penguins on this, because the ''Mario'' franchise equivalent of penguins are meant to be based on those from ''SM64'', yet the derived section brings up entities that existed ''before it.'' The blue color seems to derived from Bumpties, so there's ''that'' [[MIPS]]hole for you. As for my Dry Bones edit, they've inspired various skeleton enemies over the years. It's obvious that Bone Piranha Plants were inspired by Dry Bones, because their designs have the same type of texture. The same applies to Fish Bones, because they are meant to be underwater Dry Bones, especially given in ''Maker'', where an underwater Dry Bones becomes a Fish Bones. Poplins are not confirmed to be relatives of Toads, but it's wrong to say that aren't inspired by Toads. Really, I got the impression that subject origin = inspiration. We know that Dry Bones and Fish Bones are definitely two different entities not even related, but we know one took inspiration from the other. I guess this type of logic would make Shellcreepers being the origin for Koopa Troopas, although Shellcreepers are retroactively considered part of the Koopa clan. Yeah, relatives is another thing. For me, if its unclear what came first, its a relative. Paragoombas have the ability to spawn Mini Goombas. Mini Goombas aren't really a variant of a Paragoomba, so the relative label fits there. To get back on topic a little bit, I'm surprised [[Moo Moo]] didn't get mentioned here; it's in the same boat of Kremling, except I made it link to the Wikipedia article for [[Wikipedia:Cattle|cattle]]. My thought process behind these edits, where to tell the viewer what the species is based off on. This is somewhat true for Kremlings, who are sometimes called [[Donkey Kong Country (television series)|reptiles or lizards]]. A person who isn't familiar with this franchise might not know what the hell a Kremling is meant to be based on, so I figured that I mention its inspired by both crocodiles and alligators (not sure if Kremlings tend to crossover with these two, like how Diddy and Dixie are crosses between monkeys and chimps). I guess this could get out of hand when talking about fictional animals such as dragons or aliens, so there's that. My thought process is that someone might not realize what the species is based on. Like, if there was a fictional species based off on a [[Wikipedia:Spider monkey|spider monkey]], which some people might not realize actually exists, ''that'' was the intended goal. Of course, it can resort to "well, no shit," situations regarding Kremlings who are just based on typical crocs and Moo Moos. So yeah, I'm not entirely sure what to choose here. I do want it to be obvious to non-''Mario'' readers what the subject is based on. Are we considering making Galoombas be considered comparable to Goombas? [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 23:55, June 11, 2024 (EDT)
 
This very well could just be me, and I do not want to disregard the hard work of my fellow users. However, in my personal experience, the "subjects origins", "relatives", etc. entries for the species infoboxes have become so diluted and bloated with loosely-affiliated species that I usually just ignore whatever is written in those sections completely. This is a bit of a shame, because I remember them being quite fun and informative years prior. Today, I don't really trust/value the information written there because it seems either: (A) very subjective and promoting of drive-by edits; (B) derived from a proposal drawn chiefly from subtle similarities in Japanese nomenclature, to the point that they ignore everything about the species' physical appearance or canonized taxonomy; (C) declares it to be derived from a subject that is pretty apparent just by looking at the subject; (D) based on mechanical similarities within their respective games, which is not something that I think inherently means they are related, variants, or subjects of origins, and are details best left in the body paragraphs; or (E) are so long that it makes the whole concept of the infobox - something to quickly condense information - completely useless.
 
I do not know what would be the best amendment for the species infoboxes. Something to return them to their prior useage would be nice - it's not really clear if any of {{User|DrippingYellow}}'s options would really do that. (Possibly something to address D, I think.) But I am interested in sort of change. Too often, it feels like people are going out of their way to look for connections that are not real, rather than noting ones that unambiguously exist. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:43, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
 
Abstaining from voting, but while I don't really have a problem with axing the subject origin parameter (we can move the information from that parameter to relatives or comparable), I do realize that by doing so, we're basically undoing [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Fix how we handle infobox relations on generic species|this proposal]] about fixing how to handle the relations of generic/real-life species in infoboxes, meaning we might need a new solution for this issue. Do we have to list some of the fictional species as variants to the real-life species, related to the real-life species, or perhaps introduce a new parameter to replace subject origin that is far clearer and stricter in its definition? (e.g. "real life inspiration" or "real life counterpart"... okay tbh these aren't the best replacements, I'm basically spitballing) {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:16, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:I don't remember if randomly listing the real thing that something is based on even if it doesn't have an article (like on [[Crazee Dayzee]]) was already being done before that proposal, but either way that kind of thing shouldn't be in the infobox at all in my opinion. As for "real-world species" that we do have articles for, we can probably just treat them like we would any other species in these infoboxes. To quote Nintendo101 [[Talk:Frog (Yoshi's Story)|here]], "A [[seagull]] is just as derived from real {{wp|gull}}s as [[Goonie]]s, and just as divorced from real-life components of those animals. It is inaccurate to present them as otherwise." {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)


==New features==
==New features==
===Add parameters for listing related groups to character and species infoboxes===
''None at the moment.''
Alright, I know the "Affiliation(s)" parameter for these was deprecated many years ago for being [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/2/26/Mario1c.jpg dumb], but hear me out.
 
A few years after [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/31#Remove the "Affiliation" parameter from infoboxes|this proposal]] passed, this wiki added a [[Template:Group infobox|group infobox]] for linking to and listing members, member species, and leaders of a group, similar to how the species infobox lists variants, notable members, etc of the species. Thing is, unlike the character and species infoboxes that are designed to link to each other (character's species/species' notable members, species variants/species variants of, and so on), group infoboxes are a one-way street as it currently stands. So, I propose that parameters be added to these infoboxes so they can list the groups they belong to. And to be clear, this parameter would '''only''' be used for groups, so we get none of that "Mario is 'affiliated' with his brother and sometimes Bowser" nonsense. This has a much more specific purpose. Right now this wiki doesn't really have lists of groups that characters and species belong to, you have to look through all the articles for groups to find that out, so I think these lists would be worth having.
 
I've come up with two options:
*Option 1: [[Template:Character infobox]] and [[Template:Species infobox]] get a "member of" parameter, which would be used to link to groups they are, well, a member of. [[Goomba]] and the like would link to [[Bowser's Minions]], [[Vivian]] would link to [[Three Shadows]], etc. This parameter would be used to list both memberships and leadership roles (the latter could maybe be distinguished by adding "(leader)" next to the link).
*Option 2: these infoboxes would also get a separate "Leader of" parameter. [[Bowser]] would use this to link to [[Bowser's Minions]], [[King K. Rool]] would use this to link to [[Kremling Krew]], [[Captain Syrup]] would use this to link to [[Black Sugar Gang]], characters and species-characters would link to the [[:Category:baseball teams|baseball teams]] they lead, etc.
*Option 3: Only add the "member of" parameter to the character infobox, not the species infobox.
 
EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, the parameters would be displayed in a two-column list similar to the species infobox parameters, and would only be used for links (e.g. groups that actually have articles, and not just any arbitrary category people come up with).
 
EDIT THE SEQUEL: Per {{user|LinkTheLefty}}, added an option to only add this to the character infobox. I originally thought it would be weird to exclude it from the species infobox since some species-characters like [[Birdo]] are heavily associated with groups such as the [[Yoshi Islanders|Birdo Beauties]], at least when these characters are treated as individuals rather than species, but in hindsight, it would be odd to, say, classify ''all'' [[Goomba]]s as members of [[Bowser's Minions]] when that's [[Goombario|obviously]] [[Goombaria|not]] [[Goomama|the]] [[Goompapa|case]]. (At least [[Gary (Super Paper Mario)|Gary]] would be classified as a member of Bowser's Minions...)
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>June 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to June 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Option 1====
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} First choice per proposal.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) The folly of the "affiliations" tab was that it was allowed to include characters, which led to nonsense like Fawful being affiliated with "himself" among other things. Restricting it to groups is perfectly fine.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all of yall
 
====Option 2====
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Second choice per proposal.
 
====Option 3====
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Third choice per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Secondary choice.
 
====Do nothing====
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Whereas a nice idea in theory, I fear we'll see a repeat of everything that led to the previous iteration of this parameter getting deleted in the first place.  Unless there will be heavy patrolling of this parameter, which seems unlike given how widespread the [[Template:Character infobox]] is, I don't trust leaving it to chance that it will be used responsibly and we won't end up with weird things like Mario being "member of" some ridiculous things like "Mario Bros.", or, just as worse, a long, long, exhaustive list of every organization Mario has ever participated in, e.g. [[Excess Express]] passengers, [[Mario Kart 8]] racers (etc., etc.), and so on. Mario is obviously a "worse case" example, but the principles apply to virtually any character who has multiple appearances.  In the [[Goomba]] example that you provided, for instance, not all Goombas are part of Bowser's Minions.  What about the Goombas in [[Goomba Village]] or [[Rogueport]] or any of the other various non-Bowser-aligned Goombas.  You'd just have to get really, really into the weeds to make specific rules for parameter usage, and it will be a pain to enforce them.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per DrBaskerville.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Couldn't we just write this stuff in the body paragraphs? I worry an "affiliation" would be too often open to subjective interpretation and promote drive-by edits, further damaging the infoboxes.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} I'd rather avoid adding parameters that could lead to unconstructive uses.
 
====Comments====
Would having single character and species infobox options satisfy some of the opposition's concerns? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]])


==Removals==
==Removals==
Line 102: Line 10:


==Changes==
==Changes==
===Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary===
===Include italics for category page titles for media that normally uses it===
An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch)]], as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, ''very'' long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the ''TTYD'' remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and ''then'' go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?
Shouldn't category pages for media that uses italics (such as games, shows, movies, etc.) use italics for their category pages? I did start adding it to some pages already, but I thought it was worth proposing about it, possibly to make it policy. I feel like italics should be used though, as it is used everywhere else. For example, the page titled [[:Category:Donkey Kong 64]] should be [[:Category:Donkey Kong 64|Category:''Donkey Kong 64'']].
 
I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'' or ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'', which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|''Super Mario RPG'']] or ''TTYD'' remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)
 
My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.
 
I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]'' and ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe|Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe]]'' that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.
 
This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long ''TTYD'' section might, but something like ''Super Mario Advance'' could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.


'''Proposer''': {{User|DryKirby64}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Kaptain Skurvy}}<br>'''Deadline''': <s>February 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to February 27, 2025, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': <s>June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to June 24, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|DryKirby64}} As proposer.
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Big Super Mario Fan}} I agree with this proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Wait, this isn't already policy??? We think this lack of parity speaks a lot to how neglected categories can be in some regards. While yes, the category description isn't really meant to be the main point, we don't think ''slightly slanted text'' is distracting from the actual list of articles in the category, and just because categories are more utility than text doesn't excuse the text that ''is'' there looking below the standard of a usual article for being "lesser".
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Nothing wrong with having more consistency around the wiki.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.
#{{User|Salmancer}} It is easier to figure out what the standards are from context alone when the standards are applied in every instance.
#{{User|Hewer}} The proposer has confirmed on their talk page that the goal of the proposal is just to put [[Template:Italic title]] on category pages, so concerns about formatting the category links on articles are moot (and I'm not sure applying it there would even be possible anyway). With that cleared up, per all, I don't see the harm in some more consistency.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I'm unsure what the best approach is to covering rereleases or remakes, but I do not think we should adopt WiKirby's model of repeating most of the same information as the original game.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Categories are supposed to provide simple, direct, and utilitarian functions, not something to be read or presented to readers. I don't think italicizing them is necessary and would detract from their simplicity.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Opposing this particular solution, but agreeing that a solution to inadequate remake pages should be found.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Nintendo101. It doesn't feel necessary.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} What is this supposed to change, exactly? Yes, it's in line with how pages about games are to have the subject italicized, but the change feels unneeded and especially arduous to implement for pretty much no reason. Per Nintendo101.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Nintendo101
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Nintendo101.


====Comments====
====Comments====
This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
@Nintendo101: In that case, why do we italicise game titles in category descriptions? (Genuine question, I'm undecided on this proposal.) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:58, February 7, 2025 (EST)
:Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
:Because that is a proper sentence. It is not the tool itself. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:15, February 7, 2025 (EST)
::It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
::We mean... Wiki policy is to italicize game titles on their articles' names using <nowiki>{{Italic title}}</nowiki>, too, and those aren't proper sentences. They're article names. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:00, February 8, 2025 (EST)
:::Me personally, I'd repeat gameplay information because that's the thing that's actually changed, whereas story isn't touched at all afaik. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:52, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:::That's not the same situation in my eyes because the articles are what the site is for. That is what we are writing and presenting to the public. Of course we would italicize those. The categories are a tool, chiefly for site editors, not readers. We do not really gain anything from italicizing their titles. If anything, I worry this would lead to a lot of work to implement, either burdening site editors, porplemontage, or both. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:05, February 9, 2025 (EST)
::::So category names are just tools not meant for readers, but category descriptions aren't? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:08, February 9, 2025 (EST)
:::::The descriptions are just sentences, and I feel inclined to render those they way we would a sentence anywhere else on the site, be it on articles or in the description for image files. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)
::::We disagree with the notion categories are more for editors and not readers; while yes, all of the categories on the front page are maintenance categories from the to-do list, the sheer quantity of proposals for categories wouldn't make sense if they were moreso for editors, rather than your average reader; moves such as the reforms for the Look-alikes categories or the Thieves category wouldn't make sense if these weren't meant to be public-facing. And of course, there are the various categories that exist for users, but do ''not'' serve a utility purpose, such as the [[:Category:User es|various "users that know a given language" categories]].<br>As for difficulty implementing, considering the recent success stories with images without descriptions and categories without descriptions having gone from 4000+ and ≈100, to 0 and 0 respectively, we have it in good faith that this wouldn't be ''that'' hard to implement. Monotonous? Yes. But difficult? It's nothing a bit of caffeine and music can't solve. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:22, February 9, 2025 (EST)
:::::Not only for editors, but chiefly for them. I don't exclude the idea of more curious readers utilizing them, but I suspect they are exceptions. I maintain that their ease of implementation is more important to the site than the formatting inconsistency. Like, are we to be expected to format category ourselves as "<nowiki>[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots|Category:''Super Mario World'' screenshots]]</nowiki>" instead of just "<nowiki>[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots]]</nowiki>" going forward? Would we do this for the articles that are in dozens of categories? Why? I would not want to do that, and I don't find the inconsistency a good enough reason to roll something like that out, and only brings downsides. It makes the tool where one types "<nowiki>[[Category:</nowiki>" almost entirely moot because we would still need to write out the whole name just to format it this way. Others are welcomed to think differently, but I personally think the way we format these names now in categories is perfectly fine. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)
even if this proposal doesn't pass, i think we should use [[Template:Italic title]] in the category pages. {{User:EvieMaybe/sig}} 10:16, February 12, 2025 (EST)
:I thought that was the whole proposal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:32, February 13, 2025 (EST)
::@Kaptain Skurvy: Could you please clarify whether the proposal's goal is simply to add italic title to categories, or to also do something else as well? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:14, February 17, 2025 (EST)
:The proposer has clarified on their talk page that adding the italic title template to categories is all the proposal would do if it passed. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:21, February 23, 2025 (EST)


I think the case-by-case way we do it is fine. For instance, the SMA games and DKC remakes have enough changes both major and minor it makes the most sense to just list everything out again, which in the latters' case we do (thanks to a project of mine). But listing everything in ''Super Mario 3D All-Stars'' would be over-the-top when that's just a fidelity increase for ''three'' games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:34, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
===Merge introduction/ending sections for ''Mario Party'' minigame articles + potential retitling of Gameplay section===
{{Early notice|March 1}}
Back in 2013, there was [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/34#Get_rid_of_pointless_Mario_Party_Minigames_beginnings_and_endings|a proposal]] to cut intro/ending descriptions for ''Mario Party'' minigame articles the proposer deemed pointless, which was rejected by the community. However, with over ten years passing since the original proposal and some discussion I had with some staff on the Discord server regarding the sections/descriptions, I would like to revisit the idea of addressing these sections and the issues that commonly plague them.


In my eyes, the change list for ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' is very massive, despite my occasional efforts to subcategorize its change list. I could continue to try to compress that page's list, but even I would not call that a gold standard for "Remake changes" lists. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 17:00, June 15, 2024 (EDT)
TL;DR: This proposal, if passed, would merge the Introduction and Ending sections of articles for ''Mario Party'' minigames into the Gameplay section, which itself may be renamed to Overview to reflect a more all-encompassing coverage of the minigames if the community supports such an idea. For explanations and more, read on.


Just as someone who does go on other wikis to read up about remake information, I actually sometimes don't mind somewhat overlapping information than simply a list of changes (I don't like to hop back in between articles to read up information, especially if, say, the remake is the first time I'm ever experiencing the game). It's the reason I did sorta go all in in [[Mario Sports Superstars]] article (I wouldn't want to jump to two different pages to read mechanics about tennis and golf). I think a very brief summary of the gameplay for TTYD remake would do fine (basic battle system, hammers, jump, partners, that type of thing). {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:50, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
While the descriptions for the intros and outros of the minigames can help our readers who need tools like screen readers, many of said descriptions are often riddled with issues, some common problems including, but not being limited to:
*Excessive descriptions of minor details or other forms of filler/content bloat that do not meaningfully contribute to the article: [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Eyebrawl&oldid=4500992 1] • [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Sugar%20Rush%20(minigame)&oldid=4509228 2] • [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Flip_the_Chimp&oldid=4715460 3]
*Introduction sections consisting of basic gameplay demonstrations with no other important context or other aspects: [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=On-Again,_Off-Again&oldid=4744643 1] • [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Chain_Event&oldid=4513579 2] • [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Blazing%20Lassos&oldid=4746544 3]
*Ending descriptions amounting to little more than "the winners/losers do their respective animations": [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Sick_and_Twisted&oldid=4504726 1] • [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Platform_Peril&oldid=4744623 2] • [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Burnstile&oldid=4494938 3]


===Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for ''Donkey Kong Country 2'' and ''Donkey Kong Country 3'' pages===
One of the most important rules of keeping readers interested is to keep one's writings as concise as possible, and it goes without saying that including details that are insignificant to what defines the minigame like what characters, enemies etc. are in the background or the exact angles or motions or positions the camera is in will clutter information that is actually relevant and important to the minigame, thus reducing the quality of the pages for readers. Even if all the filler were to be cleaned up, the descriptions, especially ones of the aforementioned "the winners/losers do their respective animations" type, tend to be so short that it does beg the question as to whether the minigames really need dedicated sections for their intros and outros. Plus, a lot of people who read the minigame articles are more likely to do so for information like how it plays or what game it appears in, not what happens to the winners or losers in a minigame like [[Glacial Meltdown]].
This is based on a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Rename pages with the full Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars title|proposal from last year about ''Super Mario RPG'']], which had passed. The proposal was about using (''Super Mario RPG'') as a disambiguation identifier over the full (''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'') title because not only does the [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|Nintendo Switch remake]] not use the "Legend of the Seven Stars" subtitle from [[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|the original SNES title]] while still calling it just "Super Mario RPG", but it would also be easier to navigate and would look nicer due to the page title not being so overly long in comparison.


This proposal is the same principle, but with articles concerning ''[[Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest]]'' and ''[[Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!]]'' instead (in fact, this idea was also suggested in the aforementioned ''Super Mario RPG'' proposal). Both their respective [[Donkey Kong Country 2 (Game Boy Advance)|GBA]] [[Donkey Kong Country 3 (Game Boy Advance)|ports]] have entirely omitted the subtitles from the SNES originals, much like ''Super Mario RPG's'' Nintendo Switch remake, yet articles that make use of a disambiguation identifier still make use of the full title of the SNES originals (see [[:Category:Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest levels]] per example). I think it'd be much easier to navigate if the identifiers went from (''Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest'') and (''Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!'') to simply (''Donkey Kong Country 2'') and (''Donkey Kong Country 3'') respectively. I believe this makes sense because both the SNES originals and GBA ports are still called ''Donkey Kong Country 2'' and ''Donkey Kong Country 3'', and it's the same as what we have done with the ''Super Mario RPG'' identifiers.
This is where I propose we merge the contents of the Introduction and Ending sections back into the Gameplay section of the minigame articles, of course cleaning them up of filler and other unnotable details where needed. The Introduction sections can be repurposed to serve as the opening line of the Gameplay section while the Ending sections can serve as the conclusion.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Arend}}<br>
On the Discord server for the wiki, @Mario has also suggested the idea of renaming the Gameplay section to Overview to satiate any concerns or other desires from our userbase to keep the Gameplay section being, well, about the gameplay of the minigames. This will be provided as an alternate option for those who favor that option more than the mere section merge. If you do not agree with either proposal, a "No change" option (Option C) has additionally been provided.
'''Deadline''': June 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
If you have any other ideas on how to address the issues I’ve listed or have any questions, criticisms, comments or concerns, feel free to suggest or otherwise fire away.
#{{User|Arend}} Per proposal
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Makes sense to me. ''Donkey Kong Country 3'' at the very least is even officially abbreviated as just "DKC3", rather than "DKC3:DKDT", in Wrinky's dialogue in ''Donkey Kong 64''.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all.
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} The [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Discourage .22.28.5BTitle.5D for .5Bsystem.5D.29.22 disambiguation format when .22.28.5BTitle.5D.29.22 alone is sufficient to identify the subject|proposal]] to get rid of the need for specifying the console for remake-exclusive content had passed. Might as well extend that rule to shorten every game's dab terms.
#{{user|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Might as well.


====Oppose====
'''Proposer''': {{User|ToxBoxity64}}<br/>
'''Deadline''': March 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT


====Comments====
====Option A: Merge intro/outro sections, keep name for Gameplay section====
If this proposal passes, I think it'd be worth discussing changing "[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]" identifiers to just "Yoshi's Island" per [[Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3]]. {{User:Dive Rocket Launcher/sig}} 17:32, June 12, 2024 (EDT)
:I feel like that's a bit more of a stretch since it replaces (and reorders) the subtitle rather than just removing it. Also, "[[Yoshi's Island]]" isn't quite as immediately obvious what it refers to compared to "Super Mario RPG" and "Donkey Kong Country 2/3". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:38, June 14, 2024 (EDT)


===Include "The" for Glitz Pit team articles===
====Option B: Merge intro/outro sections, rename Gameplay section to "Overview"====
Many of the Glitz Pit teams use a "the" moniker when listed in rankings and when introduced by Grubba, however most of our articles don't do it with the explaination given when "The Koopinator" was moved to "Koopinator" being that "the" is lowercase when tattling him outside of battle. I get that this means "the" may not be part of the name proper, however this is the sort of thing that does roll of the tongue better when it is included even in the article title. I'm not trying to set a precedence with other wiki subjects in a similar boat (e.g I would still prefer leaving [[Koopalings]] as is), I'm really trying to just limit this proposal for the Glitz Pit teams. Anything outside of this would remain a case-by-case basis.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Since introductions and endings are mainly cosmetic, this seems like the more appropriate name to use.
 
#{{User|Mario}} [[File:Mario5 (opening) - MP6.png|18px]] These sections have always suffered from poor writing and serve mostly to pad the article (why are there such egregious descriptions of how the camera behaves in these articles?). There is some utility in these to contextualize the minigames, so this information should be kept in many instances (though ones with the standard win/lose endings shouldn't be mentioned, only the ones where a funny consequence happens like Wario getting his butt destroyed in [[Piranha's Pursuit]]), but they don't need to be in their own section. I think overview is a better broader way to name these sections.
[[Wings of Night]], [[Spike Storm]], [[Craw-Daddy]], [[Hamma, Bamma, and Flare]], and [[Chomp Country]] are exempt from this proposal due to their names not using "the" at all.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per proposer and Mario.
 
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per proposal.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Nightwicked Bowser}}<br>
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} The intro/outro sections are long overdue for some merging. Mentioning them is all fine and good, but do we really need an entire section dedicated to exactly one sentence that amounts to "the camera zooms in and the winner does a funny dance" on articles like [[Burnstile]]?
'''Deadline''': June 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
 
#{{User|Technetium}} Introduction: Technetium reads through the proposal. Gameplay: Technetium types "Per all". Ending: Technetium clicks "Save changes".
====Support====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} These sections are far too short to justify being separate.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't agree that "minor" or "uninteresting" information should be removed (like, if we did remove all of the "they do their victory animations" descriptions, that would leave us with some minigame articles that describe the endings while others don't, which is not helpful to readers at communicating the information and just makes it look like information is missing). But merging the sections is fine, they can be very short.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Honestly, for a team name, this makes more sense. If necessary, we can have the category order go to "Koopinator, The" for example, but as they are presented in-game, the "The" is part of their names.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per everyone.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} - This is the clear intent. or example, "[[Fuzz (group)|Fuzz]]": what is this? In-game, it's always called "The Fuzz", which makes sense because that's a slang term for police, not just "Fuzz" on its own.
#{{User|BMfan08}} But who could forget such classics as "the winning player attempts to do a winning pose as the player wins" or "the other team is sad that they lost the game"? Ahem. Anyway, per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} Makes sense! Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all, and I'd say that exceptions to this like Wings of Night are actually strong evidence that this is an intentional part of the team's full name; they're not the "Iron Adonis Twins" but "The Iron Adonis Twins".
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal. I'm the one who moved Koopinator's article for consistency, but I support adding "The" to the article names as that makes the most sense. I probably should have said something about this when I moved the article.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per Nightwicked Bowser.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} The original is consistent about this, and if the remake is the same, let's do it this way.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} The per all.
 
====Oppose====


====Option C: Keep intro/outro sections individual (No change)====


====Comments====
====Comments====
Note to self: the Koopinator example mentioned in the proposal text should probably be incorporated into The Koopinator's article as "'''The Koopinator''', also spelled with a lowercase "the" as the '''Koopinator'''<sup>(insert Tattle dialogue reference)</sup>, is a character in...", or that sort of thing, if this proposal passes, since it's still a valid name reference in its own right. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 19:18, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
I dunno. The sections are pretty poorly done, but part of ''Mario Party 8''{{'}}s brand of humor is having humorous endings to minigames so a header calling them out makes a certain kind of sense. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 15:28, February 22, 2025 (EST)
:He's only "the Koopinator" because no one else I think had the chance for their name to be mentioned outside the beginning of a sentence. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:27, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
:It's not really for all minigames, but Mario Party 8 does have more on an emphasis on those beginning and ends, especially the ends (that impression of the ending of [[Crops 'n' Robbers]] was strong on me lol; I still remember seeing characters finish their pose, jump on a truck, and leave WHILE the rankings are tallying up and thought that would be the standard for Mario Party games going forward). That being said, I'm not sure if the emphasis is that pronounced, as other Mario Partys can also have a bit of a dramatic ending like in [[Avalanche! (Mario Party 4)]] and [[Photo Finish]] from Mario Party 4; [[Merry Poppings]] and [[Head Waiter]] from Mario Party 5; and Mario Party 8 has some more generic endings like [[Picture Perfect (minigame)]] or [[Flip the Chimp]]. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:49, February 22, 2025 (EST)
::At the start of matches, "The" is capitalised even when it's not at the start of the sentence. I'll leave [https://youtu.be/jQxe3l4FDR0?feature=shared this livestream] here for reference; The Koopinator is at about 1:37:40. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 21:35, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
:::Ah, that's kind of tricky because the game breaks up the text strings in that dialog box and calls in whatever name in memory. Looks like the remake's the same way. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:41, June 13, 2024 (EDT)
::::Hm, fair enough. This is pretty insignificant anyhow… {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 03:42, June 14, 2024 (EDT)


===Replace sticks' direction notes in games' control lists with Unicode arrows===
===Make a standard for citing different pages/sections of the same source across an article, codify it at [[MarioWiki:Citations]]===
I've noticed for many retro games' pages, for instance ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels#Controls]]'' and to a lesser extent ''[[Mario Kart: Super Circuit]]'', have pretty wordy explanations that make the tables taller than they should ideally have been. An instance from the former page at the time of writing is "{{button|gcn|stick}} (left and right)", which if my proposal would pass would be mass-converted to "{{button|gcn|stick}}↔", especially since ''The Lost Levels'' was nominated for "Spotlight notice" earlier tonight, for which its note ''"(...) help to contribute in any way that you can."'' seem like a fitting time for me to see if this idea floats well with other users than me.
The formatting of citations has been a recurring, if sometimes contentious, topic of discussion around here. What I describe in the proposal's heading is something that happens more often than you'd expect, so it wouldn't hurt to reach a consensus over this practice.


D-pads for newer consoles are more or less unaffected (except in particular the Nintendo 64 D-pad that doesn't currently have an icon in [[Template:Button]] at all), and motion control info for Wiimote/Joy-Con would also be unaffected due to their very high complexity, but for non-N64 analog sticks there are no other viable options at all to reduce the table boxes' text lengths.
If you're required to cite a source multiple times across an article, the Citations policy already explains a way to link to one instance of that citation multiple times, without the need to copy and paste the entire thing each time. However, this is not practical when you need to cite distinct parts of one source to support different claims across an article. For example, you may need to cite different pages from an issue of Nintendo Power on one article. The same issue may arise even when citing different quotes from a singular page of that publication.


Other examples, though theorethical ones instead of the above ones:
I consulted a few American style guides over the topic, and found their recommendations quite practical. [[User talk:Mario#Special:Diff/4429551|These were my observations:]]
*"{{button|switch|leftstick}} up/down" → "{{button|switch|leftstick}}↕"
<blockquote>I looked up some time ago how official American style guides do it and found [https://web.archive.org/web/20221203145608/https://www.studyhood.com/english/mla_style.htm this] <small>(studyhood.com, section "ORDER OF ELEMENTS FOR A BOOK REFERENCE" (2nd))</small> for MLA and [https://libguides.up.edu/chicago/short_form this] <small>(libguides.up.edu)</small> for Chicago Manual of Style. To synthetize what both these guides recommend: the first time a source is cited, list the rigmarole that you normally would (author last name, author first name, publication date, title, publisher etc.); if the document then requires that you cite a different page from the same source, use a shortened form that contains the bare necessities.<br>The two style guides may prioritize different such "bare necessities" for shortform citations. MLA dictates that you should use the author's last name and the relevant page if you source only one work by that author, and additionally list a shortened form of the work's title if you cite multiple works by that author on the same document. Chicago, on the other hand, dictates that you always use the author's last name, title of work (again, a short form!), and page name even if you only cite one work by that author.</blockquote>
*"{{button|3ds|Stick}} left" → "{{button|3DS|Stick}}←"
*(Optional) "Rotate {{button|n64|Stick}}" → "{{button|n64|Stick}}↻"


There's only really one option that I can see, with no possible alternate options to vote for instead. I personally do not consider the vote as a matter of "Mass-implement" or "Prohibit forever", and I would not object to if anyone applied the idea to arrow-application edits on individual pages if they were to so wish.
In my opinion, the ideal approach on this wiki would be to blend these two guidelines as such: '''fully elaborate on the source the first time it is cited, as is typically done. For subsequent references to that source, list a condensed version with only the bare minimum (title, page/section) to set them apart from other sources in the article, including the specific page or section cited. If the source shares a title with another work, consider adding a distinguishing detail in its condensed version, such as the author's last name or date of publication, at your discretion.''' The best justification for this practice is that it helps cut down on redundant information: the reader doesn't need to digest the particulars of a source, such as its authors, ISBN, website, language etc, more than once on a given page. You can view early applications of this standard at [[Stretch_Shroom#References|Stretch Shroom]] and [[Big Penguin#References|Big Penguin]]. The template {{tem|cite}} can be used in this case as with any other citation.


'''Proposer''': {{User|DandelionSprout}}<br>
I noticed that some users prefer to '''instead fully list the details of that source each time it is referenced'''. This may be beneficial to better identify a source when it isn't referenced in close succession, but in disparate areas of an article. For this reason, the supporting option is divided between these two approaches. The winning option becomes the standard and is included in the wiki's policy for citations.
'''Deadline''': June 22, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
Edit (18:00, February 22, 2025 (EST)): Added another option to '''integrate Wikipedia's "{{wp|Template:Reference page|reference page}}" system''', per {{user|Nintendo101}}'s suggestion in the comments section. In short, you call a source multiple times in the article using the "name" parameter (optionally listing all the pages you wish to cite throughout the article within the citation), and append the page number or section to a desired reference link to that source in superscript. To exemplify with a fictional source:
#{{User|DandelionSprout}} I've tested it with fairly good success on [[Mario Kart 64#Controls]].
*one instance<ref name=SMB-guide>Smith, John (1985). ''Super Mario Bros. Official Guide''. ''McPublisher Publishing'' ISBN 0000-0000-0000. Pages 18, 20.</ref><sup>:18</sup>
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Makes sense to me.
*another instance<ref name=SMB-guide/><sup>:20</sup>
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Per proposal


====Oppose====
<references/>
#{{User|Shadow2}} It might seem silly, but I think the unambiguous English word "Left" is a more direct representation than just an arrow. Someone might look at your second example replacement and think "Why is there an arrow pointing at the control stick icon?" Comparatively, "Left" means "Left". This is especially more prudent with the stick rotation. It might be obvious to you and others, but not everybody is going to see "↻" and understand that it means "Rotate the control stick". Again, the unambiguous English word "Rotate" is better.
#{{User|Cadrega86}} Per Shadow2, I think this is trying to fix a non-issue, plain words are much more understandable and clear than ambiguous arrows. Arrows could also be a bit problematic in terms of accessibility (e.g. screen readers, although they probably can't read the stick icon either unless it's been given alt text.)
#{{User|Tails777}} I've thought a bit about this and personally, I feel this is a situation where words speak louder than pictures, or symbols in this case. This isn't necessarily something that ''needs'' to change or anything, I think it's fine the way it is. Per all.


====Comments====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
I like this in principal, but I will sometimes use "→" to convey the order of button presses, as apparent on the ''[[Super Mario 64#Controls|Super Mario 64]]'' page. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:15, June 15, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': March 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT
:Well, I guess if instead "▶" is being used (◀{{button|n64|stick}}▶, ▼{{button|gcn|c}}▲), I guess it wouldn't be much of a problem? <s>Or maybe any of {{wp|Supplemental Arrows-C|these}}?</s> Nevermind, these don't work on iPad. {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:46, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
::We already have stuff like {{button|padupdown}} and {{button|padleftright}}. Is there any way that this could be implemented on examples like those? [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 12:30, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:::Not for analog sticks by any realistic means that I can tell. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 12:33, June 16, 2024 (EDT)


Wondering if gif would be supported, since some games have animated gifs of stick movement. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 12:58, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
====Option 1: Fully list the details of a source upon its first reference, condense its subsequent references to mostly its title and relevant page/section====
:Sounds impractical in my eyes, as the GIFs would (presumably) constantly play and potentially distract people who read the pages. [[User:DandelionSprout|DandelionSprout]] ([[User talk:DandelionSprout|talk]]) 16:13, June 18, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal.


Regarding ease of reading, the ability to compress the height of some games' control tables by possibly more than 40%, significantly outweights any potential initial readibility. The one and only thing I'd note, is that in some rare cases the stick and the arrow could end up with a newline between them, in which case the only workaround I could find would be to use <nowiki>"<br>"</nowiki>; [[Template:Button]] doesn't seem to support non-breaking spaces.
====Option 2: Fully list the details of a source in repeated references====
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Option 1 seems inconsistent — I'm not a fan of the concept of citing the same source in two different ways within the same article. It'd be jarring when they're next to each other and it'd be difficult to find the missing information when they're far apart. Option 2 has neither of these issues.


===Standardize sound test page titles===
====Option 3: integrate Wikipedia's "reference page" system====
Something I've noticed in [[:Category:Sound tests|some of the sound test pages]] is if they're given an in-game name for the sound test mode like "[[Jukebox]]", "[[Sound Gallery]]" etc. that name gets used instead of <s>"List of (game) in-game music"</s> "(game) sound test", but this makes things very confusing (especially when you have [[Juke Box]] and [[Jukebox]], two separate lists) since it's not clear which of these is for which game, and these sound tests can have many different possible names. Some of the <s>"in-game music"-</s> "sound test"-titled lists even have sound test names and currently don't use them (e.g. "Music List" for ''Odyssey'').
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per Nintendo101.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per my suggestion below.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Nintendo101; this feels like the best compromise between curbing redundancy, while being more specific on a citation-by-citation basis.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} This also seems like a reasonable way of doing this.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} makes sense!
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} This is a great idea, as it will help refine our citation system.
#{{User|Mario}} [[File:Club Nintendo Classic SMB2 01.png|70px]] Let's not forget to cite this proposal once it's listed in the policy page.
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per all.


I propose renaming these exceptions to <s>"List of (game) in-game music"</s> "(game) sound test" and having the original names redirect to them (and add {{tem|redirect}} linking to the category if necessary). Of course, this would be applied to future sound tests in games as well.
====Don't make a standard====


However, there's also the issue of some music lists being incorporated into other, location articles (e.g. [[Musée Champignon]]) or some being treated as its own location article (e.g. [[Sound Studio]]), and I'm not fond of the idea of renaming a location to a list since the MarioWiki is supposed to [[MarioWiki:Coverage|document locations]]. I think these exceptions named after ''physical'' in-game locations (listed in '''bold''' below) should be left as is, and "Category:Sound tests" would be added to <s>"List of (game) in-game music"</s> "(game) sound test" redirects linking to their respective sections for better standardisation and consistency on the category page.
====Comments (citing multiple parts of a single source)====
 
On Wikipedia, as demonstrated [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Kane#Production here], they have a system for articles where you write out a citation once, and can convey the individual page numbers in a superscript next to the spots it is invoked in the article. I have long thought that is a great system and could help reduce redundancies on Super Mario Wiki. Do you think this could be reflected in the proposal? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:33, February 22, 2025 (EST)
Another, obvious solution would be to split these lists off from the location pages to their own <s>"in-game music"</s> "sound test" pages, which I've added as another voting option, but I personally don't like the idea of keeping all of the other sections on Musée Champignon together and intact while having its Sound Gallery somewhere else. (Then again, I noticed [[Prisma Museum]] doing just this with its art gallery at the time of writing this... Maybe the art can be moved from [[Gallery:Paper Mario: Color Splash#Concept art gallery]] to there to be consistent with Musée Champignon. But I digress.)
:I encountered this system before, but completely forgot about it for some reason. Seems like an excellent system for pages and even {{wp|Template:Reference page#How to use|other non-numeric parts of a source}} that could outshine the other candidates in the proposal. Still, what do you do, for instance, if you want to cite different quotes from the same page of a book? It's a bit of a fringe scenario, which is why I'm not stressing it in the proposal, but it's not far-fetched either. You can't rely on an in-line superscript, that would be unwieldy. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:00, February 22, 2025 (EST)
 
::Good question. I think given the general lack of recurrence, It's okay treat them as different citations like normal. My personal preference is to cite more specific details pertaining to a source only once when the book is first cited (like ISBN number, publisher, location, authors), and then omit some of those details the second time (only mention the title and date, to convey it is the same source that was cited earlier). But I know that is tricky for longer articles. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:43, February 22, 2025 (EST)
(EDIT: I just realised that [[Juke Box]] is a physical item in ''Mario Party''. For the sake of this proposal, it will be considered one of the bolded locations.)
 
Relevant pages:
*'''[[Juke Box]]'''
*[[Jukebox]]
*'''[[Musée Champignon]]'''
*[[Music Player]]
*'''[[Music Room]]'''
*'''[[Prisma Museum]]'''
*'''[[Scrapbook Theater]]'''
*[[Sound Gallery]]
*[[Sound Player]]
*<s>'''[[Sound Room]]'''</s> (EDIT: Excluded from proposal; see comments)
*[[Sound Room (WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Party Game$!)]] (While the name suggests a location, it's actually just a sound test mode like the other unbolded ones here.)
*'''[[Sound Studio]]'''
*[[Sound Test]]
*'''[[Sticker Museum]]'''
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Mario jc}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Rename sound test modes (unbolded), create categorized redirects to others (bolded)====
#{{user|Mario jc}} - Per proposal.
#{{user|Ahemtoday}} Supporting on the condition that we rename these articles "''[game]'' sound test" instead.
#{{user|DrBaskerville}} Per all
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice, just because I really don't like the idea of indiscriminately splitting specifically the music lists from articles that cover a lot of different information, and I feel like it would look messy. For instance, it would look super weird for [[Scrapbook Theater]]'s page to just be an enemy list with the music list (which is actually shorter than the enemy list) split into its own page. Keeping the lists on the pages also helps make it clear we're using the ordering and naming from the list of music shown in that place in the game, including any other oddities, such as Scrapbook Theater's music list ending with "Yoshi's Woolly World Medley" that's just a button to play a random song. I don't think there's much of a way to justify splitting just the music lists and nothing else from pages like this.
 
====Rename sound test modes (unbolded), split sound tests from locations (bolded)====
#{{User|Arend}} Honestly, I feel like the sound tests found from locations/items should have their own dedicated article, given that articles like [[Musée Champignon]] are jam-packed with so many files that some devices (e.g. my iPad) have trouble loading the page (although this issue is also a thing with the TTYD remake's [[Sound Gallery]]). Not sure if the [[Sound Room]] of ''Wario Land 4'' should be included, given that all the CD songs included there are unique to that Sound Room (with none of the tracks appearing ''anywhere else'' in the game), and we already have [[List of Wario Land 4 media|a dedicated article]] for ''Wario Land 4'' media with the actual level music and stuff.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Arend. We feel like this makes the most sense from a perspective of performance, which if we're being real here, is our main concern here.
 
====Do nothing====
#{{User|Hewer}} This change doesn't feel super necessary to me and seems to just create more complications than it's worth. We're already using official names here, I don't really get the need to change that, especially not to "sound test", since that's ''not'' always the official name. Not every article title needs to specify the game it's talking about, otherwise we'd use identifiers on like every article. (Odyssey's page can be moved to "Music List" too if necessary)
<s>{{user|Ahemtoday}} As someone with a vested interest due to renaming this category a while back, I think the thing with me is... I don't think the phrase "in-game music" makes much sense as a name for these articles. I only changed the name of the category because I really don't have a better name for these articles, but "in-game music" in no way conveys that these articles are about sound tests. As such, I don't really relish the concept of changing ''more'' articles to be named that.</s> My issue with this has been solved, see the comments.
 
====Comments====
First of all, I think you forgot to add a comments section. Second of all, as the creator of the [[Sound Room (WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Party Game$!)]] page, I only created it like that cause there already was a Sound Room page made. I asked members of the Discord if they thought I should move the other one (which belongs to Wario Land 4) but received no reply. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 12:30, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
Yeah, the Musee Champignon page takes a couple more seconds for me to load, too. It's in the top 170 largest pages (and would be smaller if it weren't for all the ''Mario Kart Tour'' list pages). Something curious is that ''Color Splash'' has a full media page, while for ''Origami King'' and ''Thousand-Year Door'' Switch, they just have the files embedded onto the museum/sound gallery pages. I did this for ''CS'' because I wanted to upload extra fanfares and unlisted tracks, but I'm wondering how to handle it now. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 18:27, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
 
@Ahemtoday The point of the proposal is to keep the naming consistent. The "in-game music" can be renamed to something else later if needed. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:51, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:I think where I'm at right now is that I prefer naming these articles after the menus/areas in which they play, even given the inconsistency, over the unfitting "in-game music" title. I'll support the proposal if someone suggests a more suitable we could move all these to instead. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:26, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
::I was thinking just "(game) sound test", like "(game) [[bestiary]]". {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:48, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:::Ooh, that's a good way to handle it. I'll vote for this proposal on the condition that that's the naming scheme we use. Do I need to make a separate proposal for that or something, or is it uncontroversial enough that we can just do that? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 03:29, June 17, 2024 (EDT)
::::Looks like Porple went ahead and [[:Category:Sound tests|renamed them]], so that takes care of that. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 10:40, June 17, 2024 (EDT)
 
@Arend I forgot the Sound Room songs are unique and not from the game's levels, so an "in-game music" title wouldn't be accurate. I've removed it from the list (so it would be the only name exception in the category). {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 22:51, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
:A bit tangential, but do you think [[List of records in WarioWare: D.I.Y.]] would qualify as an exception? I know it's not in the category right now, but it's reminiscent of that situation. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:26, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
::Yes, I would count that as an exception alongside Sound Room. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:48, June 16, 2024 (EDT)
::Seconding that the WarioWare D.I.Y. records should probably be an exception. Those are all exclusive songs that don't appear in any of the other modes (unless you input music from them into one of your own Microgames, of course). {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 00:05, June 17, 2024 (EDT)
 
So my naming issue has been solved, but let me say my thoughts on separating these out. See, the thing is, these articles are not all in the same situation. Yes, [[Musée Champignon]], [[Prisma Museum]], [[Scrapbook Theater]], and [[Sticker Museum]] have enough content in the article that a split-out list would function. It's extremely justifiable for [[Prisma Museum]], which is already split; but maybe a bit less necessary for [[Sticker Museum]], whose other contents are mostly plaintext. However, [[Juke Box]] and [[Sound Studio]] have basically nothing outside of the content that would get split off; in option 2, they would be basically nothing but stubs leading to another article. And then there's [[Music Room]], which covers multiple games; I can only describe it as an edge case. I'm not sure it makes sense to treat all these articles the same way. Though I suppose this proposal ''is'' about creating consistency. If we're dead-set on doing that, I have to support option 1 — I value [[MarioWiki:Once and only once]] over fast load times. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 03:29, June 17, 2024 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
===Allow quotes of characters being voiced by their official actors in unofficial media===
''None at the moment.''
Voice actors whose performances are heard in official works may also go on to voice their usual character(s) unofficially, such as [https://youtu.be/RTGzcEz4Dgo?si=Qtkl7ctAXSZUmerc Charles Martinet having fun as Mario, Luigi, and Wario on a trip to Chile in a series of Vines] or the voice actors of the DKC cartoon reprising their roles in the fan-made ''Return to Krocodile Isle'', with the former example [[List_of_Mario_quotes#Charles_Martinet's_profile_on_Vine_and_Instagram|already being quoted on the wiki]]. What this proposal aims to do is explicitly enable the practice of quoting unofficial performances through a statement at [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Fan work by creators officially involved with the brand|MarioWiki:Coverage, section "Fan work by creators officially involved with the brand"]], specifically as an extension to its policy on fan artwork. To be eligible on the wiki, the quotes must only reproduce lines of dialog that are perceived as directly tied to the character in a given piece of media, and not frivolous performances that can be determined to be demonstrations of skill on the part of the performer while they are engaged in an interview or other such interaction. For instance:
*Charles Martinet cracking jokes about crabs in those Vines '''will be allowed to be quoted''', because the lines can be attributed to the Mario Bros. figures shown in the video.
*Charles Martinet saying "[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K2xTvwkkK50 All toasters, toast toastie!]" in his Mario voice at a convention panel is '''not to be quoted''' because Martinet is still being himself as he changes his pitch to sound like Mario.
*even outtakes '''can be quoted''' as long as they are incorporated into a fictional blooper portraying the character being interpreted, Pixar-style. [[Ben Campbell]]'s King K. Rool [https://twitter.com/ArtOfAlexH/status/1788187903249539358 stutters and says a bad word while singing a line in front of a mic.]
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Chile today, hot tamale!
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Honestly surprised this wasn't already a thing. Mostly because "It's a hibiscus! Oh, hello-biscus." is firmly wedged in our lexicon, but also because this feels like a very natural extension of our coverage. Maybe it's because quotes pages go generally under the radar? At any rate, these feel like natural inclusions to those pages.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal. This definitely seems within the wiki’s scope as a semi-official semi-unofficial portrayal of these characters.
#{{User|Hewer}} This feels like a reasonable extension of the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Allow/prohibit fan work by former Nintendo staff|proposal]] to allow fanart from people who officially worked on the franchise, so sure, per proposal.
 
====Oppose====
 
====Comments====
I don't know if [https://youtu.be/bVcxP1FnU-M?t=856 this] fits. Jack Black pretends to be Bowser and even puts on a small show when he enters the stage, with lights flickering and a throne as prop and whatnot--but that's still just a cute segue into an interview with Jack Black. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:27, June 17, 2024 (EDT)

Latest revision as of 12:15, February 25, 2025

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Wednesday, February 26th, 07:37 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks, but can close early or be extended (see below).
  • Any autoconfirmed user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so.
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

If you would like to get feedback on an idea before formally proposing it here, you may do so on the proposals talk. For talk page proposals, you can discuss the changes on the talk page itself before creating the TPP there.

How to

If someone has an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with other users, who will then vote on whether or not they think the idea should be implemented. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.

Rules

  1. Only autoconfirmed users may create or vote on proposals. Proposals can be created by one user or co-authored by two users.
  2. Anyone is free to comment on proposals (provided that the page's protection level allows them to edit).
  3. Proposals conclude at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  5. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is acceptable (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  6. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the wiki staff.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  7. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(blocked)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  8. Proposals cannot contradict an already ongoing proposal or overturn the decision of a previous proposal that concluded less than four weeks (28 days) ago.
  9. If one week before a proposal's initial deadline, the first place option is ahead of the second place option by eight or more votes and the first place option has at least 80% approval, then the proposal concludes early. Wiki staff may tag a proposal with "Do not close early" at any time to prevent an early close, if needed.
    • Tag the proposal with {{early notice}} if it is on track for an early close. Use {{proposal check|early=yes}} to perform the check.
  10. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  11. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  12. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use {{proposal check}} to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  13. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and cannot be re-proposed until at least four weeks after the last deadline.
  14. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  15. After a proposal passes, it is added to the appropriate list of "unimplemented proposals" below and is removed once it has been sufficiently implemented.
  16. If the wiki staff deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to cancel it at any time.
  17. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first four days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by a staff member at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  18. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  19. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Staff changes are discussed internally and handled by the bureaucrats.
  20. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  21. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal formatting

Copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the proposal deadline will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but the objective(s) of each voting option must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary. 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}<br>
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

====[option title (e.g. Support, Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

====[option title (e.g. Oppose, Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Autoconfirmed users will now be able to vote on your proposal. Remember that you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To vote for an option, just insert #{{User|[your username here]}} at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can simply say "Per proposal."

Poll proposal formatting

As an alternative to the basic proposal format, users may choose to create a poll proposal when one larger issue can be broken down into multiple sub-issues that can be resolved independently of each other. In a poll proposal, each option is its own mini-proposal with a deadline and Support/Oppose subheadings. The rules above apply to each option as if it were a its own two-option proposal: users may vote Support or Oppose on any number of options they wish, and individual options may close early or be extended separately from the rest. If an option fails to achieve quorum or reach a consensus after three extensions, then "Oppose" wins for that option by default. A poll proposal closes after all of its options have been settled, and no action is taken until then. If all options fail, then nothing will be done.

To create a poll proposal, copy and paste the formatting below to get started; your username and the option deadlines will automatically be substituted when you save the page. Update the bracketed variables with actual information, and be sure to replace the whole variable including the square brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information" and not "[This is the inserted information]". 

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}}

====[option title (e.g. Option 1)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 2)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====[option title (e.g. Option 3)]: [brief summary of option]====
'''Deadline''': {{subst:#time:F j, Y|+2 weeks}}, 23:59 GMT

;Support
#{{User|{{subst:REVISIONUSER}}}} Per proposal.

;Oppose

====Comments ([brief proposal title])====

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. All of the above proposal rules also apply to talk page proposals. Place {{TPP}} under the section's heading, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{ongoing TPP}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker titles and Super Mario Run.
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates, JanMisali (ended October 31, 2024)
Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended November 3, 2024)
Allow English names from closed captions, Koopa con Carne (ended November 12, 2024)
^ NOTE: A number of names coming from closed captions are listed here.
Split off the Mario Kart Tour template(s), MightyMario (ended November 24, 2024)
Split major RPG appearances of recurring locations, EvieMaybe (ended December 16, 2024)
Organize "List of implied" articles, EvieMaybe (ended January 12, 2025)
Split Mario & Luigi badges and remaining accessories, Camwoodstock (ended February 1, 2025)
Merge Chef Torte and Apprentice (Torte), Camwoodstock (ended February 3, 2025)
Merge the Ancient Beanbean Civilizations to List of implied species, Camwoodstock (ended February 13, 2025)
Make Dark Mode available to everyone, Pizza Master (ended February 20, 2025)
Make about templates on New Super Mario Bros. U courses and New Super Luigi U courses link to each other instead of a disambiguation page, but keep the disambiguation page, Salmancer (ended February 21, 2025)
Standardize the use of "English", "English (United States)" and/or "English (United Kingdom)" as languages in game infoboxes, PaperSplash (ended February 23, 2025)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Create articles for specified special buildings in Super Mario Run, Salmancer (ended November 15, 2024)
Expand and rename List of characters by game to List of characters by first appearance, Hewer (ended November 20, 2024)
Merge False Character and Fighting Polygon/Wireframe/Alloy/Mii Teams into List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended December 2, 2024)
Merge Wiggler Family to Dimble Wood, Camwoodstock (ended January 11, 2025)
Split the Ink Bomb, Camwoodstock (ended January 12, 2025)
Create a catch-all Poltergust article, Blinker (ended January 21, 2025)
Merge Dangan Mario to Invincible Mario, PrincessPeachFan (ended January 30, 2025)
Give the Cluck-A-Pop Prizes articles, Camwoodstock (ended January 31, 2025)
Reverse the proposal to trim White Shy Guy, Waluigi Time (ended February 8, 2025)
Split Animal Crossing (game), Kaptain Skurvy (ended February 12, 2025)
Split the modes in the Battles page, Mario (ended February 15, 2025)
Split the SMRPG Chain Chomp from Chain Chomp, Kirby the Formling (ended February 22, 2025)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Include italics for category page titles for media that normally uses it

Shouldn't category pages for media that uses italics (such as games, shows, movies, etc.) use italics for their category pages? I did start adding it to some pages already, but I thought it was worth proposing about it, possibly to make it policy. I feel like italics should be used though, as it is used everywhere else. For example, the page titled Category:Donkey Kong 64 should be Category:Donkey Kong 64.

Proposer: Kaptain Skurvy (talk)
Deadline: February 20, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to February 27, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Wait, this isn't already policy??? We think this lack of parity speaks a lot to how neglected categories can be in some regards. While yes, the category description isn't really meant to be the main point, we don't think slightly slanted text is distracting from the actual list of articles in the category, and just because categories are more utility than text doesn't excuse the text that is there looking below the standard of a usual article for being "lesser".
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) Nothing wrong with having more consistency around the wiki.
  4. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per all.
  5. Salmancer (talk) It is easier to figure out what the standards are from context alone when the standards are applied in every instance.
  6. Hewer (talk) The proposer has confirmed on their talk page that the goal of the proposal is just to put Template:Italic title on category pages, so concerns about formatting the category links on articles are moot (and I'm not sure applying it there would even be possible anyway). With that cleared up, per all, I don't see the harm in some more consistency.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) Categories are supposed to provide simple, direct, and utilitarian functions, not something to be read or presented to readers. I don't think italicizing them is necessary and would detract from their simplicity.
  2. Sparks (talk) Per Nintendo101. It doesn't feel necessary.
  3. OmegaRuby (talk) What is this supposed to change, exactly? Yes, it's in line with how pages about games are to have the subject italicized, but the change feels unneeded and especially arduous to implement for pretty much no reason. Per Nintendo101.
  4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
  5. Rykitu (talk) Per Nintendo101
  6. Mushroom Head (talk) Per all
  7. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  8. Pseudo (talk) Per Nintendo101.

Comments

@Nintendo101: In that case, why do we italicise game titles in category descriptions? (Genuine question, I'm undecided on this proposal.) Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 08:58, February 7, 2025 (EST)

Because that is a proper sentence. It is not the tool itself. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:15, February 7, 2025 (EST)
We mean... Wiki policy is to italicize game titles on their articles' names using {{Italic title}}, too, and those aren't proper sentences. They're article names. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 19:00, February 8, 2025 (EST)
That's not the same situation in my eyes because the articles are what the site is for. That is what we are writing and presenting to the public. Of course we would italicize those. The categories are a tool, chiefly for site editors, not readers. We do not really gain anything from italicizing their titles. If anything, I worry this would lead to a lot of work to implement, either burdening site editors, porplemontage, or both. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:05, February 9, 2025 (EST)
So category names are just tools not meant for readers, but category descriptions aren't? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:08, February 9, 2025 (EST)
The descriptions are just sentences, and I feel inclined to render those they way we would a sentence anywhere else on the site, be it on articles or in the description for image files. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)
We disagree with the notion categories are more for editors and not readers; while yes, all of the categories on the front page are maintenance categories from the to-do list, the sheer quantity of proposals for categories wouldn't make sense if they were moreso for editors, rather than your average reader; moves such as the reforms for the Look-alikes categories or the Thieves category wouldn't make sense if these weren't meant to be public-facing. And of course, there are the various categories that exist for users, but do not serve a utility purpose, such as the various "users that know a given language" categories.
As for difficulty implementing, considering the recent success stories with images without descriptions and categories without descriptions having gone from 4000+ and ≈100, to 0 and 0 respectively, we have it in good faith that this wouldn't be that hard to implement. Monotonous? Yes. But difficult? It's nothing a bit of caffeine and music can't solve. Camwoodstock-sigicon.png~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:22, February 9, 2025 (EST)
Not only for editors, but chiefly for them. I don't exclude the idea of more curious readers utilizing them, but I suspect they are exceptions. I maintain that their ease of implementation is more important to the site than the formatting inconsistency. Like, are we to be expected to format category ourselves as "[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots|Category:''Super Mario World'' screenshots]]" instead of just "[[Category:Super Mario World screenshots]]" going forward? Would we do this for the articles that are in dozens of categories? Why? I would not want to do that, and I don't find the inconsistency a good enough reason to roll something like that out, and only brings downsides. It makes the tool where one types "[[Category:" almost entirely moot because we would still need to write out the whole name just to format it this way. Others are welcomed to think differently, but I personally think the way we format these names now in categories is perfectly fine. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:49, February 9, 2025 (EST)

even if this proposal doesn't pass, i think we should use Template:Italic title in the category pages. — Super Leaf stamp from Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury.eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 10:16, February 12, 2025 (EST)

I thought that was the whole proposal. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:32, February 13, 2025 (EST)
@Kaptain Skurvy: Could you please clarify whether the proposal's goal is simply to add italic title to categories, or to also do something else as well? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 20:14, February 17, 2025 (EST)
The proposer has clarified on their talk page that adding the italic title template to categories is all the proposal would do if it passed. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:21, February 23, 2025 (EST)

Merge introduction/ending sections for Mario Party minigame articles + potential retitling of Gameplay section

Based on the vote so far, this proposal may be eligible to close one week early. Please use {{proposal check|early=yes}} on March 1 at 23:59 GMT and close the proposal if applicable.

Back in 2013, there was a proposal to cut intro/ending descriptions for Mario Party minigame articles the proposer deemed pointless, which was rejected by the community. However, with over ten years passing since the original proposal and some discussion I had with some staff on the Discord server regarding the sections/descriptions, I would like to revisit the idea of addressing these sections and the issues that commonly plague them.

TL;DR: This proposal, if passed, would merge the Introduction and Ending sections of articles for Mario Party minigames into the Gameplay section, which itself may be renamed to Overview to reflect a more all-encompassing coverage of the minigames if the community supports such an idea. For explanations and more, read on.

While the descriptions for the intros and outros of the minigames can help our readers who need tools like screen readers, many of said descriptions are often riddled with issues, some common problems including, but not being limited to:

  • Excessive descriptions of minor details or other forms of filler/content bloat that do not meaningfully contribute to the article: 1 • 2 • 3
  • Introduction sections consisting of basic gameplay demonstrations with no other important context or other aspects: 1 • 2 • 3
  • Ending descriptions amounting to little more than "the winners/losers do their respective animations": 1 • 2 • 3

One of the most important rules of keeping readers interested is to keep one's writings as concise as possible, and it goes without saying that including details that are insignificant to what defines the minigame like what characters, enemies etc. are in the background or the exact angles or motions or positions the camera is in will clutter information that is actually relevant and important to the minigame, thus reducing the quality of the pages for readers. Even if all the filler were to be cleaned up, the descriptions, especially ones of the aforementioned "the winners/losers do their respective animations" type, tend to be so short that it does beg the question as to whether the minigames really need dedicated sections for their intros and outros. Plus, a lot of people who read the minigame articles are more likely to do so for information like how it plays or what game it appears in, not what happens to the winners or losers in a minigame like Glacial Meltdown.

This is where I propose we merge the contents of the Introduction and Ending sections back into the Gameplay section of the minigame articles, of course cleaning them up of filler and other unnotable details where needed. The Introduction sections can be repurposed to serve as the opening line of the Gameplay section while the Ending sections can serve as the conclusion.

On the Discord server for the wiki, @Mario has also suggested the idea of renaming the Gameplay section to Overview to satiate any concerns or other desires from our userbase to keep the Gameplay section being, well, about the gameplay of the minigames. This will be provided as an alternate option for those who favor that option more than the mere section merge. If you do not agree with either proposal, a "No change" option (Option C) has additionally been provided.

If you have any other ideas on how to address the issues I’ve listed or have any questions, criticisms, comments or concerns, feel free to suggest or otherwise fire away.

Proposer: ToxBoxity64 (talk)
Deadline: March 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Option A: Merge intro/outro sections, keep name for Gameplay section

Option B: Merge intro/outro sections, rename Gameplay section to "Overview"

  1. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Since introductions and endings are mainly cosmetic, this seems like the more appropriate name to use.
  2. Mario (talk) Mario from the opening cutscene of Mario Party 6 These sections have always suffered from poor writing and serve mostly to pad the article (why are there such egregious descriptions of how the camera behaves in these articles?). There is some utility in these to contextualize the minigames, so this information should be kept in many instances (though ones with the standard win/lose endings shouldn't be mentioned, only the ones where a funny consequence happens like Wario getting his butt destroyed in Piranha's Pursuit), but they don't need to be in their own section. I think overview is a better broader way to name these sections.
  3. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposer and Mario.
  4. Power Flotzo (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) The intro/outro sections are long overdue for some merging. Mentioning them is all fine and good, but do we really need an entire section dedicated to exactly one sentence that amounts to "the camera zooms in and the winner does a funny dance" on articles like Burnstile?
  6. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  7. Technetium (talk) Introduction: Technetium reads through the proposal. Gameplay: Technetium types "Per all". Ending: Technetium clicks "Save changes".
  8. Ahemtoday (talk) These sections are far too short to justify being separate.
  9. Hewer (talk) I don't agree that "minor" or "uninteresting" information should be removed (like, if we did remove all of the "they do their victory animations" descriptions, that would leave us with some minigame articles that describe the endings while others don't, which is not helpful to readers at communicating the information and just makes it look like information is missing). But merging the sections is fine, they can be very short.
  10. Nintendo101 (talk) Per everyone.
  11. BMfan08 (talk) But who could forget such classics as "the winning player attempts to do a winning pose as the player wins" or "the other team is sad that they lost the game"? Ahem. Anyway, per all.

Option C: Keep intro/outro sections individual (No change)

Comments

I dunno. The sections are pretty poorly done, but part of Mario Party 8's brand of humor is having humorous endings to minigames so a header calling them out makes a certain kind of sense. Salmancer (talk) 15:28, February 22, 2025 (EST)

It's not really for all minigames, but Mario Party 8 does have more on an emphasis on those beginning and ends, especially the ends (that impression of the ending of Crops 'n' Robbers was strong on me lol; I still remember seeing characters finish their pose, jump on a truck, and leave WHILE the rankings are tallying up and thought that would be the standard for Mario Party games going forward). That being said, I'm not sure if the emphasis is that pronounced, as other Mario Partys can also have a bit of a dramatic ending like in Avalanche! (Mario Party 4) and Photo Finish from Mario Party 4; Merry Poppings and Head Waiter from Mario Party 5; and Mario Party 8 has some more generic endings like Picture Perfect (minigame) or Flip the Chimp. Mario It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 15:49, February 22, 2025 (EST)

Make a standard for citing different pages/sections of the same source across an article, codify it at MarioWiki:Citations

The formatting of citations has been a recurring, if sometimes contentious, topic of discussion around here. What I describe in the proposal's heading is something that happens more often than you'd expect, so it wouldn't hurt to reach a consensus over this practice.

If you're required to cite a source multiple times across an article, the Citations policy already explains a way to link to one instance of that citation multiple times, without the need to copy and paste the entire thing each time. However, this is not practical when you need to cite distinct parts of one source to support different claims across an article. For example, you may need to cite different pages from an issue of Nintendo Power on one article. The same issue may arise even when citing different quotes from a singular page of that publication.

I consulted a few American style guides over the topic, and found their recommendations quite practical. These were my observations:

I looked up some time ago how official American style guides do it and found this (studyhood.com, section "ORDER OF ELEMENTS FOR A BOOK REFERENCE" (2nd)) for MLA and this (libguides.up.edu) for Chicago Manual of Style. To synthetize what both these guides recommend: the first time a source is cited, list the rigmarole that you normally would (author last name, author first name, publication date, title, publisher etc.); if the document then requires that you cite a different page from the same source, use a shortened form that contains the bare necessities.
The two style guides may prioritize different such "bare necessities" for shortform citations. MLA dictates that you should use the author's last name and the relevant page if you source only one work by that author, and additionally list a shortened form of the work's title if you cite multiple works by that author on the same document. Chicago, on the other hand, dictates that you always use the author's last name, title of work (again, a short form!), and page name even if you only cite one work by that author.

In my opinion, the ideal approach on this wiki would be to blend these two guidelines as such: fully elaborate on the source the first time it is cited, as is typically done. For subsequent references to that source, list a condensed version with only the bare minimum (title, page/section) to set them apart from other sources in the article, including the specific page or section cited. If the source shares a title with another work, consider adding a distinguishing detail in its condensed version, such as the author's last name or date of publication, at your discretion. The best justification for this practice is that it helps cut down on redundant information: the reader doesn't need to digest the particulars of a source, such as its authors, ISBN, website, language etc, more than once on a given page. You can view early applications of this standard at Stretch Shroom and Big Penguin. The template {{cite}} can be used in this case as with any other citation.

I noticed that some users prefer to instead fully list the details of that source each time it is referenced. This may be beneficial to better identify a source when it isn't referenced in close succession, but in disparate areas of an article. For this reason, the supporting option is divided between these two approaches. The winning option becomes the standard and is included in the wiki's policy for citations.

Edit (18:00, February 22, 2025 (EST)): Added another option to integrate Wikipedia's "reference page" system, per Nintendo101 (talk)'s suggestion in the comments section. In short, you call a source multiple times in the article using the "name" parameter (optionally listing all the pages you wish to cite throughout the article within the citation), and append the page number or section to a desired reference link to that source in superscript. To exemplify with a fictional source:

  • one instance[1]:18
  • another instance[1]:20
  1. ^ a b Smith, John (1985). Super Mario Bros. Official Guide. McPublisher Publishing ISBN 0000-0000-0000. Pages 18, 20.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: March 8, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: Fully list the details of a source upon its first reference, condense its subsequent references to mostly its title and relevant page/section

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal.

Option 2: Fully list the details of a source in repeated references

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) Option 1 seems inconsistent — I'm not a fan of the concept of citing the same source in two different ways within the same article. It'd be jarring when they're next to each other and it'd be difficult to find the missing information when they're far apart. Option 2 has neither of these issues.

Option 3: integrate Wikipedia's "reference page" system

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per Nintendo101.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Per my suggestion below.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Nintendo101; this feels like the best compromise between curbing redundancy, while being more specific on a citation-by-citation basis.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) This also seems like a reasonable way of doing this.
  5. EvieMaybe (talk) makes sense!
  6. Super Mario RPG (talk) This is a great idea, as it will help refine our citation system.
  7. Mario (talk) Mario in Club Nintendo Classic. Let's not forget to cite this proposal once it's listed in the policy page.
  8. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per all.

Don't make a standard

Comments (citing multiple parts of a single source)

On Wikipedia, as demonstrated here, they have a system for articles where you write out a citation once, and can convey the individual page numbers in a superscript next to the spots it is invoked in the article. I have long thought that is a great system and could help reduce redundancies on Super Mario Wiki. Do you think this could be reflected in the proposal? - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:33, February 22, 2025 (EST)

I encountered this system before, but completely forgot about it for some reason. Seems like an excellent system for pages and even other non-numeric parts of a source that could outshine the other candidates in the proposal. Still, what do you do, for instance, if you want to cite different quotes from the same page of a book? It's a bit of a fringe scenario, which is why I'm not stressing it in the proposal, but it's not far-fetched either. You can't rely on an in-line superscript, that would be unwieldy. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 18:00, February 22, 2025 (EST)
Good question. I think given the general lack of recurrence, It's okay treat them as different citations like normal. My personal preference is to cite more specific details pertaining to a source only once when the book is first cited (like ISBN number, publisher, location, authors), and then omit some of those details the second time (only mention the title and date, to convey it is the same source that was cited earlier). But I know that is tricky for longer articles. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:43, February 22, 2025 (EST)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

Retrieved from "https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&oldid=4755790"