MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62

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And he isn't even on Battlefield! We apologize in advance for how long this proposal is, but we wanted to make sure we covered all our bases here... Y'know, for a disambiguation article. You'll see what we mean. Stafy, probably, does not need a full article as a character. He does not directly appear in any Mario games as himself. But like, the current state of his "article" is not much better. It currently directly redirects to his given section of the Assist Trophy section, which would be fine enough if that was all there was, right? Stafy has only made a physical appearance in Smash Bros., it's another Smash Bros. thing, pack it in, chumps, we're done! Crisis averted, and we can all go home. ...But then, Starfish exists. Yeahhh, this guy is weird. Starfish is implied in all but direct statements to be Stafy himself in sunglasses, prancing about in Super Princess Peach in multiple distinct levels, which is, indeed, a Mario game; or at least a game with Mario in it that we give sufficient coverage for. And he's not just some background cameo, either; he makes physical appearances, he's acknowledged by the in-game Bestiary, he's even mentioned in in-game hints telling the player about his secret presence! In fact, there's been a proposal in the past to just outright merge him with a formerly-extant Stafy page. Now, while resurrecting the old page just to merge this article into it feels like a bit too much (especially since that's really just a more roundabout rename at that point), it bugs us quite a bit that this article for a character we know is heavily based on Stafy, and is implied to even be Stafy, is just... an article you wouldn't come across if you had the gull to search "Stafy" directly, and you'd get shoved right to his Assist Trophy section instead. And then there's Densetsu no Stafy 3. Yes, that's a blue link, and for good cause; one of the levels in that game is a crossover with Wario Land 4. Wario even physically appears in it, complete with his transformation gimmicks, which Stafy must readily exploit to solve puzzles and progress through the level! This is something we cover readily, since we've determined this is a substantial appearance of Wario. It's even got a Staff page. And besides, it's not like we haven't set the precedent before that crossovers like this that are for a full level are fine before this; just look at Rhythm Heaven Megamix or Sonic Lost World. And, again... You wouldn't find this if you just typed "Stafy" and had the gull to hit "search" or press your enter key, without hearing the advice of autocomplete first. It's only marginally less hard to find with autocomplete, to be fair, but it wouldn't shock us if people are flat-out unaware this exists because they did just type "Stafy" and not think twice. That's two entire articles we have about Stafy, both of which are, indeed, worthy of coverage on our wiki (an entire enemy in a video game for the former, and a substantially important crossover in the latter), that you'd never even know were there if you simply wrote "Stafy". This isn't even getting in to the less substantial stuff, like, say, the Yoshi Theater cameo in Superstar Saga, or the List of references in Nintendo games article's subsection, or even that one SMM1 level, because frankly, 3 is already enough as-is to us. We re-iterate; we do not think Stafy needs a full article on his own, so please don't treat us like we're saying so, thanks to his lack of direct physical appearance in-game. Starfish comes close, but it's just a little too indirect and wishy-washy for us. However, we do think that making the Stafy article a redirect to Assist Trophy, blatantly ignoring the other two articles, is... a little too extreme, wouldn't you say? And it's not like we can't just append a "see also" to Stafy's section on the Assist Trophy article, or anything. So... What if we just didn't do either of those? That's right, you read the proposal name, we're finally about to say the line. We think Stafy should be a disambiguation article. What should it disambiguate between? Well, here's our idea: His appearance as an Assist Trophy up top, as it's his most direct appearance by far. It's what most people probably are thinking of when they search "Stafy" on the Mario Wiki, so it seems only fair. Starfish, in the middle; being an important, albeit indirect, appearance. (This could maybe be the first one as it's the only cameo he has in a proper Mario game? But it's still fairly obscure, and he's not overtly called Stafy, so it could honestly go either way.) Densetsu no Stafy 3, a game he appears in that features a prominent Mario (well, Wario) cameo that we have coverage of. If we decide it's important enough to include for whatever reason, we could maybe mention the Yoshi Theatre or the List of Mario References or the Mario Maker level articles here. Probably only the References one if we include any of these, but it doesn't hurt to ask, right? Either at the very end or right below the assist trophy, link to his article on the Stafy Wiki, just as a final little courtesy thing. If, for whatever reason, you disagree with the "just a disambiguation" and feel he needs his own full article after this, that's fine, and we did put that as an option just in case that begins to prevail for whatever reason. However, we'd personally advise against it, because we don't feel like he's gotten quite that appearance that's more involved than brief cameos lasting only a stage/a few stages/an Assist Trophy just yet. But as for us, we feel like we've made our stance fairly clear that we could definitely bear to at least let readers know that there's a little bit more to Stafy than just his assist trophy. Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk) Deadline: May 15, 2023, 23:59 GMT Convert to a disambiguation page Camwoodstock (talk) - Per that very long-winded proposal about why Stafy needs a little bit more to his article, but not that much. There's a little bit more we could be pointing at than just an Assist Trophy; and while a full article feels excessive, a disambiguation page feels a lot more reasonable, and is readily expandable into a fuller article should the occasion (somehow) ever arise where that's necessary. Hewer (talk) I'm not entirely sure why this needs a proposal (let alone such a long one) but sure, per proposal (though the disambiguation should probably be called "Starfy" instead of "Stafy" since that's his official English name nowadays, and "Stafy" can be a redirect to it). Waluigi Time (talk) A problem I have with the current coverage for Starfy and many other crossover characters that have multiple appearances is that the information about them is scattered across the wiki, but nothing helping you to find it. There's a lot here that could be talked about, but searching Starfy just redirects you to the Assist Trophy list which makes no mention of any of it. We've only recently started to address this problem by keeping the other Mario-relevant appearances on the Smash fighter lists. This is a good start but there's a lot more that needs to be done. ThePowerPlayer (talk) I would be more inclined to make an article for Starfy on account of the Mad Scienstein article, but what really irritates me is that Starfish from Super Princess Peach is never explicitly stated to be Starfy, and could be just another member of Starfy's species, like Starly. Because the rest of Starfy's appearances not in his own series are very minor, I can see a disambiguation page with very brief descriptions of each of his appearances as working better; however, in that case, I'd prefer for the disambiguation to be comprehensive in listing Starfy's appearances in the Mario franchise, followed by Mario elements appearing in The Legendary Starfy series (since the only other case of this is Starfy himself being able to wear a costume based on Super Princess Peach). If anyone's interested, I've made a mockup of what the disambiguation could look like on my sandbox. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all. Shadic 34 (talk) Per all. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. Convert to a full article Waluigi Time (talk) I would also be perfectly fine with this, considering how much can talked about here even if none of it's coverage-worthy by itself. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Second choice; per discussion in the comments below. Killer Moth (talk) Second choice; I wouldn't be against doing this either. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per Do nothing SeanWheeler (talk) I don't like disambiguations for a single character. The only reason an individual character should ever have a disambiguation page would be for multiverse counterparts. Disambiguations serving to link to the character on list pages are the problem I have with Smash Wiki's disambiguations. And we're cutting down on Smash content, so it's best not to recreate pages on non-Mario Assist Trophy characters. Comments @Hewer: The reason the proposal is so long is, well, we effectively had to cover every apperance Stafy made in Mario-adjacent media, and then explain why we think it's fair enough that there's an article for that, but Stafy himself doesn't really warrant an article. As for the whole Starfy/Stafy thing, that's admittedly force of habit on our part; but now that you've brought it up, yes, we'd probably go with Starfy, as that's the most recent English name for him, with Stafy being a redirect. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 10:30, May 8, 2023 (EDT) Consider, if you will, how Mad Scienstein is handled. It seems relevant here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:05, May 8, 2023 (EDT) That's... A really good point, actually. Mad Scienstein is unequivocally considered fine enough to have his own article, despite originating from a non-Mario game under a name that got localized vastly different here in English. If nothing else, that's more than a sound reason to us to give Starfy something more than a redirect to Smash and nothing else. Don't know if we're on board for a Starfy article yet, but we can't blame anyone if our treatment of Scienstein sways others. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 14:11, May 8, 2023 (EDT) I really don't see how Scienstein is relevant here, seeing as unlike Starfy, any of his individual crossover appearances would have been enough for full article coverage on their own. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:54, May 9, 2023 (EDT) From what we'd assume; Mad Scienstein debuted in From Whom The Frog Bell Tolls, and later cameo as an enemy in Wario Land 4 before appearing elsewhere as cameos. Starfy debuted in... well, Stafy, and then made a cameo as an enemy in Super Princess Peach and made cameos elsewhere--though notably, a good chunk of those cameos were before Super Princess Peach, not after. Both also have different names in their appearance as an enemy (Arewo Shitain-hakase -> Mad Scienstein, Starfy -> Starfish). ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:10, May 9, 2023 (EDT) Actually, Sceinstein was an enemy in Wario Land 3, with a slightly alternate design (presumably under mind control, as he's Rudy's main minion in Dr. Mario 64, which uses the same design). In Wario Land 4, Scienstein is a throwable object in the secret rooms, and has a design that harkens back to that of his initial appearance in For Whom the Frog Bell Tolls. Mad Scienstein in Wario Land 3 seems definitely the best comparison with Starfish from Super Princess Peach: an enemy that is implied or outright confirmed to be a character from a more obscure Nintendo game, except with a slightly different design and name (Mad Scienstein's Japanese WL3 name is Mad Shitain, as opposed to the Dr. Arewo Shitain he has in both WL4 and Frog Bell Tolls). rend (talk) (edits) 14:19, May 9, 2023 (EDT) Move Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill and other related species Template:ProposalOutcome (I made this proposal here and not on the talk page since this doesn't just affect the main Banzai Bill page but also the other species) You may have noticed Banzai Bills are occasionally getting called "Bomber Bills" on occasion. At first, it seemed like either a strange case of censorship (regarding the LEGO sets) or a translation error (such as the English Mario Portal website). However, with The Super Mario Bros. Movie using this term now, I am heavily convinced that Bomber Bill is the new name. To explain, let me detail the history of Banzai Bill's renames. LEGO Mario Sets In the LEGO Super Mario sets, the Boomer Bill Barrage set includes Banzai Bills for you to add to your sets. As the set's name suggests, they are renamed "Boomer Bills". Why the name changed is unknown, but as just2good mentions in his censorship video, the word "Banzai" is a Japanese war cry. Now this rename isn't the only case of renames as they refer to Parabombs as "Parachute Bob-ombs" which has yet to appear in a mainline game or a feature-length movie. The LEGO set incident wouldn't be the best reason to rename them since it seems like it was just a LEGO thing. LEGO doesn't like to dip its toes into military themes unless it's fantasy (Star Wars), likely being a case of aiming the sets toward a family audience. And then came the English Mario Portal. English Mario Portal The Japanese Mario Portal website has the option to view certain elements of the page in English. The English localization on this website is intriguing, mainly because it took names from the Mario Encyclopedia, which also plagiarized the Mario Wiki. One of the odd things about it was the Banzai Bill translations. Their names are Bomber Bills. The Bull's-Eye Banzais are Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills. The Cat variation is Cat Bomber Bill. However, Gold Banzai Bill and Mad Banzai Bills are not localized yet. Now this website isn't perfect; there are some errors and kinks in terms of translations, and at that time, the term Bomber Bill had not appeared. But what was interesting was that it was somewhat a combination of the word "bomb" and "boomer", like the LEGO sets. That is particularly strange, but it wouldn't suggest a rename. Well, that is until now. The Super Mario Bros. Movie Now this section will contain spoilers. If you have yet to see the movie, I strongly suggest you do. It's a decent flick and does a proper job of adapting the Mario games into a story, and it does lack some of the severe flaws in other Illumination films. In this movie, Bowser is about to launch a giant Banzai Bill onto Peach's Castle. But here's the riveting thing; Bowser says, "Launch the Bomber Bill and DESTROY THE MUSHROOM KINGDOM!!" Woah, what?! Bowser just used the term "Bomber"! What does that mean? Well, the implications seem to be clear now. What seemed like censorship on LEGO's part or an odd translation goof on the Mario website, we now have a significant, full-length movie telling us it's a Bomber Bill. I didn't know about it until I randomly stumbled upon it on its page. The goal of this proposal It's pretty clear what this proposal is about: Moving Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill and making similar, relevant changes to its subspecies. The short story, the Bill has recently been referred to differently in its last few appearances. It could be possible to join Podoboo and Swooper for pointless name changes. I don't know about specific arguments people could have for keeping the old name. However, the one possible side point I could hear is that Banzai Bill is in Super Mario Maker 2, and unlike other Mario enemies, Banzai was in effect for a long time. And that is true, but the recent attempts at not calling this thing a Banzai Bill piqued my interest here. These articles will get these renames.: Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill Bull's-Eye Banzai to Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill Cat Banzai Bill to Cat Bomber Bill These articles will keep their names currently.: Gold Banzai Bill Mad Banzai Bill Banzai Bill Cannon The reasons are that they have yet to get an English translation. If they appear in future games and have the name Bomber Bills, we still call the cannons Banzai Bill Cannons if they aren't named in-game. If a new name for them comes out (like Bomber Bill Blasters), we call them that in their appearances with Bomber Bills as we did with Paragaloomba. Proposer: Wikiboy10 (talk) Deadline: May 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT Date withdrawn: May 18, 2023 Support Wikiboy10 (talk) Per proposal and The Super Mario Bros. Movie Oppose Arend (talk) I dunno, the name "Banzai Bill" has still been used fairly recently (like with Parabomb), and the movie is not 100% one-to-one with the games either. I'd wait until the games use "Bomber Bill" as well. Swallow (talk) I'd rather wait and see if at least one more game uses this name first, then I'll be more convinced Nintendo have settled on this as the new name. Hewer (talk) The Super Mario Bros. Movie actually has a few naming oddities like Blue Shell and Blue Mushroom, as well as calling the Tanooki Suit a Raccoon Suit. Lego Super Mario is also a bit of a stretch to use as evidence since it doesn't use Banzai Bill or Bomber Bill. Since we're yet to see this name in a source that doesn't have oddities like this, and the name "Banzai Bill" was still in use recently, I'd rather wait until the name gets used in more sources (preferably an actual game). I'll gladly support if the name ends up consistently getting used, though. Camwoodstock (talk) - Per all, we'd definitely give it at least one more instance of Bomber Bill over Banzai Bill--preferably in an actual game--before we put it to a vote. Banzai Bill was still in use as recently as Super Mario Maker 2 and Dr. Mario World in 2019, after all. also we still call lava bubbles "podoboos" out of habit 7feetunder (talk) I'm with the "wait for the actual games to start using it" camp. Spectrogram (talk) Per all. Cadrega86 (talk) Oppose until it's used in a game. SeanWheeler (talk) I heard Bowser call it the Banzai Bill in the movie. Ray Trace (talk) Not a regular occurrence and I think it's too early to make that call just yet. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all. TheFlameChomp (talk) I kind of expected to see a proposal about this, but "Banzai Bill" has still been used fairly recently in games and I would prefer that it is used in the context of a game before changing it. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. We should only change it if the games started using the name Bomber Bill instead of Banzai Bill. Comments @Seanwheeler He definitely says "Bomber". Nightwicked Bowser 16:21, May 17, 2023 (EDT) Nah, he said "Banzai." If he said "Bomber," I would have been confused. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:29, May 17, 2023 (EDT) Oh, goodness, is this gonna be the next Yanny/Laurel? We haven't seen the movie/don't have plans to, so we can't vouch for one side or the other... ;p ~Camwoodstock (talk) 01:04, May 18, 2023 (EDT) Regardless of what they were called in the movie, as other people said the name change haven't been made into the games yet. Also, LEGO called them Boomer Bills, not Bomber Bills, which leaves the Japanese site translated to English as the last source for "Bomber Bills." This proposal doesn't have any ground to stand on. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:38, May 18, 2023 (EDT) Oh boy, who would prevail: "Banzai" or "Bomber"? I have not watched the movie for the second time, so I don't know if ever I hear King Koopa utter banzai, or bomber.  PnnyCrygr  05:28, May 18, 2023 (EDT) I've seen the movie in theaters, the English version with Dutch subtitles to be specific. I'm pretty sure Bowser said "Bomber Bill", and I theorize that they were called "Bomber Bill" on the Mario Portal because of the movie. But regardless if he actually said "Bomber" or "Banzai", the movie still has several other inconsistencies that don't match one-to-one with the games (e.g. in the movie, Donkey Kong is Cranky's son, whilst in the games, he's Cranky's grandson). This is true for the names of several things as well, as Hewer stated before. So it doesn't really matter whether or not Bowser did call them "Bomber Bills", as the movie and the Portal aren't sufficient enough to rename the page of a character that's been used fairly recently and quite often. The most important thing is that we need to see the games themselves using said name, too, before we do anything. rend (talk) (edits) 06:20, May 18, 2023 (EDT) Create articles for Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix songs Template:ProposalOutcome My reasoning for this is simple: Our coverage policy is that levels get their own article. As a rhythm game, Mario Mix's songs are its equivalent of levels. Therefore, they should have their own article. I think these articles would be substantial enough to justify their existence on their own, as well. Each one would have an infobox primarily made to contain information on each difficulty's note count, and the article would cover the song's origin, role in Story Mode, what occurs in the background during the song, and what elements show up in Mush Mode. The elements in question here are the names of these articles, and whether they should cover all of the original song's Mario-series appearances (similarly to how Mario is Missing! opens up articles for landmarks that then appear in minor roles in Mario Kart Tour). I see multiple philosophies here, each with potential upsides and downsides. OPTION 1: Consider them all separate songs from their source material, thereby receiving entirely separate articles covering only their Mario Mix appearances. This approach neatly sidesteps all naming issues, and it works great with Moustache, Barrel, and Gorilla, which takes from multiple songs, but it also creates situations like Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.) and Here We Go! being two separate articles. Maybe that makes sense, though, especially with our increasingly split-heavy approach to level articles. OPTION 2: Consider the Mario Mix songs arrangements of the song they're based on, and give those songs articles covering all their appearances, including their Mario Mix ones with the information outlined above. (Note that Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.), Underwater Theme, Fever, and Underground Theme all already exist.) This works excellently with things like Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros. 2) and Athletic Theme (Super Mario Bros. 3, but it also results in things like Greenhorn Forest (song), having to decide on which Double Dash!! circuit to name Rollercoasting's article after, and Moustache, Barrel, and Gorilla. Most unfortunate here is the classical music - Mario Mix is most of these tracks' only relevance to the series, so it feels odd to have Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and not Underground Mozart, Overture (Carmen) instead of Garden Boogie, and especially Tritsch-Tratsch Polka instead of Always Smiling (seriously, they barely sound like each other). Maybe it wouldn't be a big deal since the Mario Mix names would all be redirects, but this still doesn't seem ideal. OPTION 3: They're arrangements again, and we still cover its other appearances, but this time we use the Mario Mix names because those were the names when the songs were most mechanically relevant. The upside of this is that all the naming stuff that was awkward with option 2 disappears. The downside is that we're naming the articles for all these recurring and important songs after what this one obscure GameCube game called them once. This would rename the Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.) to Here We Go!. It doesn't seem like the right move to me. OPTION 4: Articles still cover all appearances of the song, but this time we name them on a case-by-case basis. With a few exceptions, the classical songs will use their Mario Mix names since that's their only relevance to the series, while Mario songs will use their original titles and be covered in articles that also cover all the other appearances of the song. The exceptions are Moustache, Barrel, and Gorilla, which is a combination of multiple songs from the original Donkey Kong; Ms. Mowz's Song, because the name "Ms. Mowz's Theme" is close but has never been official as far as I can tell; Bowser's Castle (song), which needs the identifier for obvious reasons; and Piroli, which would use its Mario Mix name in absence of having anything better to call it. The disadvantage of this option is its lack of consistency, but it doesn't suffer from any of the awkwardness of the previous two options. Oh, one more thing: yes, my argument for making Mario Mix song articles does also apply to the Donkey Konga series. I was originally planning on this proposal extending to those games as well, but I'm much less familiar and their situations are slightly different in many places, so I decided to just focus on Mario Mix for now. Proposer: Ahemtoday (talk) Deadline: May 18, 2023, 23:59 GMT Option 1: Articles cover only Mario Mix, use Mario Mix names Ahemtoday (talk) I can easily see the reasoning for this one. While I'd probably prefer option 4, this also seems like it could be the right move. Hewer (talk) Per proposal and these being the equivalent of level articles. RHG1951 (talk) After seeing the drafts, I prefer the information be handled this way. 7feetunder (talk) No reason to pretend that articles for what are essentially just random music tracks that just happened to get redone for a dancing game would exist if they didn't appear in said dancing game. As for the issue of creating "redundant" articles, I see no problem here. We should be treating these like level articles, not music articles. The logic behind this proposal is that these are this game's equivalent of levels, not that Toy Dream's background music magically becomes article-worthy because it appeared in this game. It's no more redundant than splitting DKC boss level articles from the bosses when they're pretty much interchangeable. Arend (talk) Actually yeah, 7feetunder brings up a good point I should've thought about while voting earlier: the articles should be about levels first and music second, not the other way around. Per. Option 2: Articles cover all appearances, use original names #Arend (talk) Second choice, see Option 4 reasons. Option 3: Articles cover all appearances, use Mario Mix names Option 4: Articles cover all appearances, named on case-by-case basis Ahemtoday (talk) This is my favored option. Articles like Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.) show that major enough Mario-series songs can warrant articles, and here we have a bunch of songs that are directly mechanically relevant, being the game's equivalent of levels. Camwoodstock (talk) This works for us. Don't want to avoid having articles for effectively redundant tracks, but having articles for as many tracks as make sense/within reason would definitely help a lot more with coverage, especially since the tracks are fairly distinct from one another (at least, as far as we could tell; admittedly, we're not very familiar with DDR Mario Mix, but what we've seen and what we understand about it and other DDR games checks out). #Arend (talk) I too feel like this (or Option 2) is the best option too, given that Option 1 might gives us multiple articles of themes we already have an article of, and Option 3 would give single-game song titles of remixes to the original themes that already have more well-known names. Sure, Ahemtoday's draft on Greenhorn Forest with this option isn't the best example, given the long list of appearances of the Greenhorn Forest leitmotif in Wario World, but I feel like that could be rewritten into a regular paragraph as well. Option 5: Do not create articles Comments Personally, I think we should consider an attempt to list the original music for each arrangement more correctly; for instance, this table lists the original music for "Pirate Dance" being the Athletic theme of Super Mario World, yet the beginning is clearly based on the intro for Super Mario World's Ground theme; and with "Step by Step", the original music is listed as "Bonus game / Switch Palace" from Super Mario World: not only parsed with spaces as if they're two different tunes (even though they share the same music), but I believe it's also an arrangement of Vanilla Dome, also from Super Mario World, which the table fails to mention completely. "Step By Step" could also be a slower-paces arrangement of the Athletic theme instead of "Pirate Dance", the intro for "Step by Step" does sound like a mix between that and Vanilla Dome. I don't know if the current listings were originally from Nintendo themselves or not, but I think some more thorough research may be in order for a couple of tracks. rend (talk) (edits) 19:44, May 11, 2023 (EDT) For clarification, do options 2-4 create separate pages for the music like the recurring themes in Category:Musical themes or are they included in the Mario Mix level page itself like with Gusty Garden Galaxy § Music? If it's the former, the original proposal for covering recurring themes specifies that a theme needs to appear in at least 8 unique games. - RHG1951 (talk) 11:17, May 12, 2023 (EDT) What I was envisioning happening was: if one of those options wins, we create (as an example) the article Lots of Toys. This article has sections for both the song's appearance in Mario Party 5 as Toy Dream's theme, and its appearance in Mario Mix as Cabin Fever, which would be a redirect to that section (or simply the name of the article in option 3). I think that's the second thing. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:53, May 12, 2023 (EDT) I'd personally prefer to see a draft of an article before I throw my hat in the ring. If I do support, I'm definitely picking option 1 - most of the tracks in Mario Mix are neither major recurring themes nor original songs ("songs" meaning they have lyrics, like Phantom of the Bwahpera), so we should be treating these like level articles, not song articles. Plus it's just awkward to be like "yeah here's an article on the music from Toy Dream even though none of the other Mario Party board themes have one; it appeared in some rhythm game so that makes it special". I am completely opposed to making song articles for the Donkey Konga games. There's no storyline or scenario behind the songs in that game, so articles on them would ultimately boil down to lyrics sheets for a bunch of random pop and rock songs. At best they warrant a list, like ones we have for the Mario cartoons. 09:24, May 13, 2023 (EDT) Gotcha. I made a couple drafts for Starring Wario!: This one for option 1, and this one for option 4 (though it can be easily repurposed for options 2 and 3 with only minor changes). I chose Starring Wario mostly at random, for the record. Ahemtoday (talk) 16:57, May 13, 2023 (EDT) ...y'know, on second thought, maybe I should've chosen a different song. They wouldn't all have big weird lists like that, I swear. (Though maybe that's just a sign I needed to stretch to fill the Wario World section with halfway-worthwhile information...) Ahemtoday (talk) 19:24, May 13, 2023 (EDT) Split major classic remakes Template:ProposalOutcome I was inspired by the Mario Bros. split proposal to make this proposal. Essentially, we have some remakes, like SM64/DS, the SMA series, & SMBDX split. With the Switch/3DS remake proposal, I feel like someone should do a classic remake proposal, whence why I'm doing this. There are 3 options. Option 1 splits all major remakes. Option 2 only splits major remakes that would be in a strict definition. Option 3 is the "do nothing" option. Proposer: SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Deadline: May 19, 2023, 23:59 GMT Option 1 SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) This is my perferred option. Option 2 SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) I'm fine with this, though. Secondary option. Option 3 SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Of course, if enough people are fine with the inconsistency, this would be fine, too. Tertiary option. Hewer (talk) This proposal is extremely vague and unclear in what it's trying to achieve and I still don't really see the point of it, so I'll oppose. Spectrogram (talk) Per Hewer, and the fact that the proposer doesn't seem to know which games would be split as well. Even if the goal of this proposal is to open a door for future splits, that door was never closed in the first place, and it's better to determine what needs to be split on a case-by-case basis. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Spectrogram. This proposal in its current state is in this uncomfortable middle ground between being way too vague and having way too many potential ramifications. What's... What's even meant to be enacted if this passes? What articles are being effected? What does this policy mean?! It was mentioned this was apparently meant to be the prelude to determining potential articles to split in future proposals, but honestly, you need to lead with that, because we don't want to say "yeah, let's do it!" and then it turns out exactly 0 of the given games are remakes we agree should be split up, rendering everything a moot point anyways as we end up with some protocol that has an "exceptions" list that covers every possible application. Arend (talk) Per all: It is extremely unclear which articles the proposer wants to split, especially regarding Option 2 which would split major remakes that "would be in a strict definition" (and even when clarifying that it would be like how we split modern remakes on a case-by-case basis, it's still rather vague). Clarity is key for a proposal with big ramifications like this one, so the proposer should make sure to provide a list of which articles would be split under Option 1, and a list of which would be split under Option 2; yet, they didn't provide any of these lists. Even when asked, it gets totally ignored in favor of other questions. This makes Spectrogram's theory of the proposer actually having no idea what games should be split very plausible, which, for a proposal like this, is a huge problem. If you don't know what should be split for your proposal to split articles, then why bother making it? Should this proposal be tried by someone else another day, please think of the articles you want to split first, and make sure to list them when you do make the proposal. RealStuffMister (talk) per all. everyone else here has said it perfectly. Comments What exactly do you mean by "classic remake" here? That's much too vague. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:48, May 12, 2023 (EDT) What games would fall in the scope of this proposal? Spectrogram (talk) 12:51, May 12, 2023 (EDT) What "major classic remakes" are we talking about here? Which ones "would be in a strict definition"? Are there "minor remakes" we're excluding here? Ahemtoday (talk) 12:55, May 12, 2023 (EDT) Whoa! Already, you 3 ask this! Not being rude, of course. Now, to answer Doc's question, "classic remake" is a remake of a classic game, unlike a "modern remake" which is something like Donkey Kong Country Returns 3DS, or Tropical Freeze Switch. To answer Spectrogram's question, games like Super Mario Bros, Donkey Kong, and so on, would fall in the scope of this proposal. Mario Bros is not included due to there already being a passed proposal for it. To answer Ahemtoday's questions, here's my answers. 1. I'm talking about remakes of a game like Super Mario All-Stars' remakes of SMB1, TLL, 2, & 3 that are still in the articles of the OG game. 2. Strict definition would be something akin to the DKC games mentioned earlier, Luigi's Mansion 3DS, & Poochy & Yoshi's Wooly World. 3. Minor remakes would be like splitting Mario Bros. Classic from Mario Bros. Battle, or Super Mario Bros. with its' FDS version. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:57, May 12, 2023 (CST) I think they were asking for a complete list of what articles would be split with each option. By the way, you should probably remove at least one of your votes, voting for every option is effectively the same as not voting at all. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:35, May 12, 2023 (EDT) @SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) One user cannot support to every option at the same time. They should support to at most, one option.  PnnyCrygr  00:01, May 13, 2023 (EDT) You can support multiple. But not all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:26, May 13, 2023 (EDT) I must say, this is probably the first time I've seen a proposer put their support in all options of their proposal. I don't think it's allowed to vote for every option though, because as Waluigi Time said, it's essentially like not voting at all. If every option is given a vote by the same person, it doesn't make a significant change in the standings. Another thing: I'm really confused at what the difference between options 1 and 2 are. Option 1 is "Split all major remakes", that sounds clear enough, but Option 2 is "Only split major remakes that would be in a strict definition", and reading that, I'm like: "what would does 'in a strict definition' even mean?!" I got to ask, what games are affected with option 2, and which games are not affected? I know Ahemtoday already asked what "in a strict definition" meant and you already answered that, but I don't feel any more enlightened with the three examples you gave him. All I'm certain of is that minor remakes won't be affected by either option. Listing all games that will be or won't be affected by either option (similar to this or this) would help a lot, as Waluigi Time said. rend (talk) (edits) 02:40, May 13, 2023 (EDT) There is no rule against voting for every option on a proposal with multiple options though Spectrogram (talk) 03:09, May 13, 2023 (EDT) There's no rule against it because it doesn't really hurt anything, but it's also pointless to do so. You can vote for every option, but you shouldn't because it accomplishes nothing. There's no difference between the current state of the proposal and if the proposer had decided not to vote at all. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:14, May 15, 2023 (EDT) WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!! JEEZ! This is crazy! Let me try to clear more things up. Waluigi Time, PnnyCygr, Doc, & Arend have good points on voting, but I think on that matter Spectrogram sums it up perfectly. On the topic of what falls under 2, I was talking about how we split modern remakes under a case-by-case basis, option 2 would essentially be like that. It's nice to know that you understood option 1! One last thing. PnnyCygr, that at symbol thing made me get Porplemontage vibes. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 09:39, May 15, 2023 (CST) So do you have a list of games that would be split if option 2 passes, or is it just meant to pave the way for future proposals? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:14, May 15, 2023 (EDT) The second one. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:42, May 15, 2023 (CST) Look, man, we cannot really work here if we don't get any specific games that need to be split off, at least for Option 2. While I appreciate the slight clarity with the case-by-case explanation, that doesn't mean much without examples. Just give us a full list of what articles would be affected for Option 1, and a more trimmed-down list for the articles that would be affected for Option 2. And if you can't provide such lists, then perhaps this proposal a bit undercooked. It's quite vague as it is, so you might need to take some time, think it through, etc. rend (talk) (edits) 17:35, May 15, 2023 (EDT) Fine, no one likes this. Can an admin cancel this, then? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:30, May 15, 2023 (CST) If you cannot wait for an admin to veto/cancel it, you can always move your proposal from here to MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive. Make sure you reach the bottom end of the archive page (press the End key), then cut this proposal above and paste into that archive. Hope it help.  PnnyCrygr  09:26, May 16, 2023 (EDT) This is incorrect. "Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals)." Spectrogram (talk) 09:36, May 16, 2023 (EDT) Oh. sorry about that. I thought proposals can be cancelled within any amount of time (remember my sonic character proposal?).  PnnyCrygr  09:42, May 16, 2023 (EDT) Make changes to MarioWiki's editbox wallpaper Template:ProposalOutcome The editbox is the field where one can type their edits into. But the most overlooked cosmetic aspect of the editbox is its wallpaper thing: Those strings of character artwork located at the bottom half of the editbox. Currently, it features 2000s artwork (Luigi, Mario Sunshine with Yoshi, Princess Peach, Luigi, Mario Sunshine with Yoshi), as somehow the wiki was established in the 2000s. The editbox's wallpaper pattern as of now looks like this: If changes were to be made to it, I would elaborate on these three options: Give new changeable designs to the editbox wallpaper: We could implement new designs to the editbox's wallpaper. This could be changeable in Special:Preferences, under Editing. There could be countless designs: "Mario Kart", "Paper Mario", "Mario Party", "WarioWare", "Donkey Kong Country (game series)", "Wario Land", "Luigi Mansion", "Yoshi's Island", "Yoshi's Wooly/Crafted World", the list goes on and on. Just update the existing wallpaper design with new Mario franchise artwork: The editbox still looks like it's from the 2000s, so maybe we can just replace the old art with the 2017-present promo arts of Mario characters. Do nothing: Do not like these changes? Please feel free to state your reasons for choosing this option. Proposer: PnnyCrygr (talk) Deadline: May 21, 2023, 19:06 EDT Give new changeable designs to the editbox wallpaper PnnyCrygr (talk) Per explanations above, as I would like more variety to the edit box wallpaper. MegaBowser64 (talk) I agree. I suggest implementing new wallpapers based on specific games, while keeping the old theme as a Super Mario Sunshine wallpaper. I don’t really see what’s wrong with it, I mean sure it isn’t from a recent game, but in no way does that mean that we have to eradicate it from the wiki. After all, the Mario franchise is based on nostalgia. Just because it’s from 2002 doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a place on the wiki. Just update the existing wallpaper design with new Mario franchise artwork Camwoodstock (talk) - Having renders from mid-2000s games that are as high quality as the mid-2000s internet would allow us to get our hands on on bold, proud display as the default, in the year 2023, feels almost comically out of date, right? Updating this to be more in-line with the site aesthetics we've grown into since implementing this is way overdue. It's not 2005 anymore (citation needed), so like, if we've updated the wiki logo and various other parts of the wiki's graphics and visuals since then, why should the thing you're forced to see whenever you edit an article--the thing we see as we write this vote and constantly revise it--be some exception? We'd like to suggest, as Koopa con Carne indirectly mentioned, the designs mentioned on the Main Page's talkpage for a potential candidate. Anything a bit more recent than renders that can literally become US Citizens in how old they are! Somethingone (talk) Thank you Camwood for clearing the purpose of this proposal up for me; per Camwood. Hewer (talk) Per all, I've thought the editing field looks bad literally ever since I first saw it so I've long awaited this change. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. Updating the renders would be the best call. Arend (talk) Per Camwoodstock. The current edit box image appears make use of low-quality JPGs of outdated artwork and might have never been updated since its inception on the wiki, so let's focus on just updating that first. While it would be real neat to have different edit box skins with specific themes for the novices which may find CSS code too advanced for them, I'm not sure if the suggested manner of having it in Special:Preferences can be easily arranged, since I don't think admins can customize that. Maybe Porplemontage (talk) could, being the wiki proprietor, but you might have to ask. So let's not get too overambitious and just stick with updating the one edit box style we have. Dinoshi 64 (talk) While I do find the current design sort of charming with its 2000's-ish style, I do think it should be changed to something better. Ray Trace (talk) The current one is terrible. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all. It's time to renovate the design and get rid of the ancient renders. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all. Do nothing #Somethingone (talk) I really don't see how the edit box featuring artwork from the 2000s is a bad thing. Is it because they have been replaced by newer artwork? I don't see why that would be a reason to replace them for OOW cosmetic reasons, such as the background of the edit box. Also, per KCC in the comments regarding customization; if it is really an issue for someone, they can change how it looks on their own end. Comments Users can personalise their editing field any way they want with some HTML knowledge through a "monobook.css" user subpage. I do agree that the default editing field skin would benefit from an upgrade, but there should be some consensus on it beforehand. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:16, May 14, 2023 (EDT) There'd have to be more to the proposed themes than just names for us to vote for changeable designs outright, but we're down to update the default if nothing else, because... well, see our statement. Also... Listen. We get it, a user can customize them on their end, so who cares about the default, right? ...But that's not to say that your average user will customize their background, or even if they know how to do that. Being real here, most people would probably just accept they don't know how to do that, and decide to grin and bear it, and slowly tune it out until it all becomes background noise anyways, just another mild eyebrow-raiser to add to the pile, another thing you just have to kind of insist someone will "get used to" whenever it comes up. Like us, we did that. Well, except that last one. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 22:13, May 14, 2023 (EDT) Come to think of it--should this proposal pass in the favor of option 2 (just update the renders), would we have a second proposal to determine which option we change to based on a select few options (yes, likely these ones, again)? We'd assume the answer is yes, but y'know, we want to make sure all the bases are covered here. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:17, May 15, 2023 (EDT) Maybe we could use this design from Mario Maker 2? I think it fits very well for an editing field! (Maybe you'd need to remove the SMM2 text on it but otherwise it should be fine) Dinoshi 64 Yoshi, Yoshi! 01:44, May 18, 2023 (EDT) I dunno, I would prefer something more general as opposed to something more game-specific. I'd also prefer the background to be white, instead of yellow: I don't mind colors in the editing field, but I feel like the background shouldn't drastically change the color if the editing field itself. rend (talk) (edits) 06:32, May 18, 2023 (EDT) I don't think a design being too "game-specific" is enough to disqualify it, and you could just edit the image to be colored white. But, I guess as a second option we could use this one instead, it is less specific after all, and it's easier to edit to white. Dinoshi 64 Yoshi, Yoshi! 06:44, May 18, 2023 (EDT) In a perfect world, we'd be able to offer multiple options that a purveying editor could select in their account settings, like the first option suggests. Of course, that's a little high-tech at the moment, so it's probably best to not get too far ahead and just settle on something that'd be a very good all-around option; if someone like, say, Porplemontage wants to figure out how to implement that, then we can start mucking about with stuff like offering alternative skins. (Also, one of the renders in the current banner is very explicitly Sunshine, so make of that what you will?) ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:40, May 18, 2023 (EDT) In the meantime, that background for our proposals space is also tacky as mac-n-cheese pizza. Mama mia. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 18:21, May 18, 2023 (EDT) The section option is not good. I wouldn't vote for it unless we have a clear idea what we're replacing it with. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:28, May 20, 2023 (EDT) @MegaBowser64: Calling the current design a Super Mario Sunshine wallpaper is pretty inaccurate since only one of the artworks is actually pertinent to that game, the Peach artwork being from Mario Party 6 (Peach wore a different outfit in Sunshine) and the Luigi artwork from Super Mario 64 DS (Luigi wasn't even in Sunshine). The current artwork just does a bad job at representing the overall Mario franchise by using a few old and outdated renders, one of which is clearly specific to a particular game due to its inclusion of FLUDD. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 21:30, May 20, 2023 (EDT) I shot up a discussion on Talk:Main Page a while back (Edit: it's been mentioned in a vote) Talk:Main_Page#That_editing_field... because there's no other better place to start the discussion besides maybe a forum thread, but I guess it got overlooked besides a few comments. The link also includes image suggestions. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 18:16, May 18, 2023 (EDT) Way back, I did not look at the discuss page of the Homepage. I did not consider it in mind when composing this proposal. But, looks like 2nd option would win.  PnnyCrygr  20:57, May 18, 2023 (EDT) Prioritize the 2001 iteration in Diddy Kong Pilot Template:ProposalOutcome The 2001 iteration is the only iteration officially announced by Nintendo. Also, the official artwork is based on this one. They planned to have ten background environments in the game, while the 2003 version had only five backgrounds. There was unused splash screens in 2001 iteration, it had a copyright date. While the 2003 iteration is the stage before changing to a Banjo-Kazooie game, and the copyright at the beginning is missing and no copyright date is displayed. Also the voice used within in the game is different, the former is same actors as Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64, while the latter used completely different one. The music is also different, the former is brand new (unused in a leaked build, but implemented), while latter is same as Banjo-Pilot. The proposal is moving Diddy Kong Pilot (2001) to simply Diddy Kong Pilot. Proposer: Windy (talk) Deadline: May 31, 2023, 23:59 GMT Date withdrawn: May 25, 2023 Support Oppose Swallow (talk) In the end, they're both unreleased games that should have equal priority. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Agreed. Just because 2001 Diddy Kong Pilot has the Diddy Kong Racing & Donkey Kong 64 voice actors doesn't give it priority over 2003 Diddy Kong Pilot, Diddy Kong Racing Adventure, or Donkey Kong Racing. Camwoodstock (talk) - What does prioritization even mean in this context, anyways? Aside from moving the article to a "simpler" name, but that feels redundant when having both articles keep their dates and making the dateless one a disambiguation feels a lot easier. There's no reason to "prioritize" one or the other when both incarnations of the game just got nixed anyways; there's no "true" incarnation of this game in the first place. And even if there was one which released over the other, we don't really "prioritize" like this elsewhere on the wiki. See the Donkey Kong games, Mario Bros. games, and most relevant for this, Super Mario 128 and Super Mario 64 2 are just distinct articles, despite the latter also sometimes being called Super Mario 128. That's not to mention that if we were to enact this, what about all the other articles where we don't prioritize? Hewer (talk) Per all, I really don't see the point of deciding which scrapped Diddy Kong game is more "official" than the other. Waluigi Time (talk) The only time a subject gets priority over another is if it's significantly more prominent to the point that we can reasonably expect someone searching for the title to be looking for it most of the time. I doubt that's the case here, and most of the points brought up in the proposal are irrelevant to that. Spectrogram (talk) Per all. RHG1951 (talk) Per all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) The 2003 build is also the one that is actually a fully functioning game rather than an alpha crashfest. Why should it be prioritized less? TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all. Comments I think this proposal should be closed. We can't prioritize until it comes out officially. Windy (talk) 10:36, May 25, 2023 (EDT) Establish a guideline for citing archived web pages Template:ProposalOutcome I've made a previous proposal about this in the past, but it was unnecessarily complicated. To put this as simply as possible, many online web pages are very likely to be taken down at some point, and many already have; a user may come across an online source which is no longer on the live web, and only exists on an online web archive, the largest of which is the Wayback Machine. To establish consistency when citing pages from these web archives, a guideline should be listed on MarioWiki:Citations, below the template for citing live websites. This is what I believe is the best style to follow for such citations: cite the original, unmodified link to a page as usual, then include a statement in parentheses that lists the page as being archived, with a link to where the web archive hosts the page, a timestamp, and finally, the web archive which was sourced. Below is a template of such a citation (the link to the archived page would be accessed by the word "Archived"): Author Name (January 1, 2000). Live page link. Publisher. Retrieved January 1, 2023. (Archived June 1, 2022, 00:00:01 UTC via Web Archive.) As an example, the list of rumors and urban legends about Mario already uses this style for the majority of its web page citations. Here is an example from that page: Nintendo (1985). Super Mario Bros. Instruction Booklet. Retrieved July 8, 2021. (Archived March 9, 2021, 10:01:59 UTC via Wayback Machine.) A note should also be added to MarioWiki:Citations that the precise timestamp for a page from the Wayback Machine, the most common web archive source, can be found by examining the date in the URL; for the above example, 20210309100159 can be read as 2021-03-09 10:01:59, and should be formatted as March 9, 2021, 10:01:59 UTC. To clarify the proposal, this should not be considered a strict rule that must be followed, nor a necessity for every citation of a web page, but simply as a guideline to follow in case a page has already been taken down, or if a link to an archived version of a page is being added to a citation. Proposer: ThePowerPlayer (talk) Deadline: June 1, 2023, 23:59 GMT Support ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal. Hewer (talk) Per proposal. PnnyCrygr (talk) Per everyone, as users might think they’re going into an active link when really they are led into a 404’d link Camwoodstock (talk) Per all. Preservation is extremely important, and it'd seriously help if we pointed to archives when applicable. Ray Trace (talk) This is a great way to combat link rot and I strongly encourage more regular usage of archived pages regardless. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all. Dinoshi 64 (talk) Yes, please. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per all. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. Blhte (talk) per all MegaBowser64 (talk) let’s git archivin’ now RHG1951 (talk) Per all. Oppose Comments I am sick of these “active” links that are really dead or 404 links. This proposal acknowledges said statement of mine.  PnnyCrygr  17:53, May 18, 2023 (EDT) @ThePowerPlayer Did you give this a 2-week deadline? 'Cause that's for talk page proposals only, normal proposals get one week and so this proposal should end today. SmokedChili (talk) 07:51, May 24, 2023 (EDT) You're very wrong. To quote rule 3, "except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks". Spectrogram (talk) 07:59, May 24, 2023 (EDT) Right, that exception escaped my notice. SmokedChili (talk) 08:41, May 24, 2023 (EDT) Something worth noting: In the case of Flipnote Hatena stuff specifically, the Internet Archive will not do, as they're blacklisted from the Wayback Machine. Instead, however, someone made an external archive of Flipnote Hatena flipnotes called the Sudomemo archive. We've used it before on the Yoichi Kotabe article for his Mario 25th Anniversary flipnote, and nobody seems to object to that one; thusly, should we include something about "if trying to link an old Flipnote Studio flipnote, you may also use the Sudomemo archive"? ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:57, May 25, 2023 (EDT) If it works too well, maybe we could retrieve all the other Mario 25th featured flipnotes thatwere from mario25th,nintendo,com. Including America, Japan, Europe, and Staff Flipnotes afaik.  PnnyCrygr  17:46, May 25, 2023 (EDT) I feel the need to point out that I have heard tell that certain influential corporate entities are currently making efforts to have the web archive taken down for whatever selfish reasons, so I would caution against full reliance on it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:35, May 29, 2023 (EDT) Can you point to a source for that claim? I don't see any alarming notice on the archive.org site or their blog. Either way, a good measure against complete loss of information is saving it on other digital archives, such as archive.today. What I also did and will continue doing is take screenshots of relevant web pages and upload them onto the wiki outright. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:52, May 29, 2023 (EDT) There is a whole moola about Internet Archive.[1][2][3]. Ray Trace(T|C) 10:00, May 31, 2023 (EDT) Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles Template:ProposalOutcome This proposal is similar to this one about Conker the Squirrel and this one about Professor Elvin Gadd, except this time, the targets are the many Sonic the Hedgehog characters who appear in the Mario & Sonic games. In these games, the characters are almost always referred to by their shortened names (e.g. Sonic and Tails), but for some strange reason, the wiki article titles don't reflect this (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog and Miles "Tails" Prower). This is also true of Sonic's Super Smash Bros. appearances, which simply call him "Sonic". Speaking of which, I'm lumping Fox McCloud into this proposal too for the same reason: the Smash games always just call him Fox. Pages that will be renamed by this proposal: Fox McCloud -> Fox Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic Miles "Tails" Prower -> Tails Knuckles the Echidna -> Knuckles Amy Rose -> Amy Shadow the Hedgehog -> Shadow (character) Vector the Crocodile -> Vector Blaze the Cat -> Blaze Silver the Hedgehog -> Silver Rouge the Bat -> Rouge Espio the Chameleon -> Espio Jet the Hawk -> Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog) Jet -> Jet (Mario Tennis: Power Tour) Wave the Swallow -> Wave E-123 Omega -> Omega Sticks the Badger -> Sticks Cream the Rabbit -> Cream (character) Charmy Bee -> Charmy Big the Cat -> Big (character) Redirects using the full names will be kept, of course. Proposer: Hewer (talk) Deadline: June 4, 2023, 23:59 GMT Support Hewer (talk) Per proposal. Swallow (talk) Per proposal Tails777 (talk) Per proposal. Camwoodstock (talk) The only part of this we'd hold contention with has been addressed, and after reviewing the list again, these all make sense to us. Now, admittedly, we didn't go scouring the list of every character article on the wiki, so there might be a few we're missing; but we can definitely address those as the crop up, and these are the vast majority of the ones we can think of anyways. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per proposal. MegaBowser64 (talk) P e r p r o p o s a l . PnnyCrygr (talk) Per. Also, characters who have name like Jimmy Thang are using their common nicks (Jimmy T instead of Jimmy Thang). We also have Penny instead of Penny Crygor (and Dr. Crygor not Doctor Crygor), so I will whollily and happily support short nicks names for third partiers. Cadrega86 (talk) Per proposal. Oppose SeanWheeler (talk) There are some crossover characters with shortened names that overlap with Mario subjects. And using the series name to disambiguate just emphasizes how non-Mario they are. If Sonic the Hedgehog is going to be moved to Sonic, then shouldn't Jet the Hawk be Jet (Sonic)? Actually, if there's proof of their full names somewhere in a Mario crossover like in the Super Smash Bros. Brawl trophies, then their page names should remain the same. The Sonic logo in Smash is proof that Sonic is Sonic the Hedgehog from Mario's perspective, so Sonic's name has to stay and every other crossover character whose full name was stated. Killer Moth (talk) Per Seanwheeler. After reading the comments I personally find this change to be unnecessary. And as Sean points out in the comments, names like Fox are generic and can confuse new editors. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per SeanWheeler. Comments Jet from Mario Tennis should be prioritised over the Sonic character as he is a Mario character. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:40, May 28, 2023 (EDT) Seconding this. We should probably make "Jet (MT:PT)" be just "Jet", and "Jet the Hawk" can be "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)". We'd be glad to support if that was addressed, but otherwise... Wow, that's a potential bit of Wiki Jank waiting to be discovered 10-odd years from now. ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:54, May 28, 2023 (EDT) I thought of that, but I wasn't sure what identifier to use for Jet the Hawk since he's made multiple appearances (and for some reason I thought there was already a case of a crossover character with priority over a Mario character, but looking at the articles we have I guess I was remembering wrong). I'll settle for "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)" though as it's consistent with Slime (Dragon Quest) (as well as the former Steve (Minecraft) and Roy (Fire Emblem) articles). I've changed the proposal. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:04, May 28, 2023 (EDT) Works for us! ~Camwoodstock (talk) 14:15, May 28, 2023 (EDT) Don't you think "Shadow (character)" might be confusing due to the existence of Shadow the Dog, a WarioWare character? rend (talk) (edits) 18:57, May 29, 2023 (EDT) I doubt it, since that article isn't using the title Shadow. If it was then the identifier would need to be more specific, but as it stands, I think Shadow (character) works fine. Compare Leo and Leo Luster, where no identifier for Leo works fine because the other Leo uses a full name. It's not a perfect comparison since in Shadow's case we need an identifier because of the SMRPG enemy but it gets the point across. (Speaking of which, I noticed that Ninja is another crossover character sharing a name with an SMRPG enemy, except they share naming priority. Maybe there's a case to move the current Shadow article to "Shadow (enemy)"?) Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:15, May 29, 2023 (EDT) @SeanWheeler No offence, but did you even read the proposal before opposing? I am suggesting to move Jet the Hawk to Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog). There's precedent for this with articles like Slime (Dragon Quest) and Ring (Sonic the Hedgehog). And there's also precedent for moving full names to shortened versions, like Conker the Squirrel, Professor Elvin Gadd, Princess Rosalina, and the Donkey Kong Country animal friends. I'm not saying that the full names don't exist or that we should remove all mention of them, just that we should move the article titles to the more common names (we aren't about to move Mario to Mario Mario or Bowser to King Bowser Koopa). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:39, May 31, 2023 (EDT) Realised I misunderstood your comment about Jet, but I still disagree because the franchise is called Sonic the Hedgehog, it's just the character I'm suggesting to move to his more common name in the games he crossed over with Mario in. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:44, May 31, 2023 (EDT) Slime (Dragon Quest) and Roy (Fire Emblem) had their series title because they were only known by one name. Conker, according to the proposal that moved him barely had any reference to officially being called "Conker the Squirrel" in his own series. Sonic's full name, Sonic the Hedgehog is quite famous as that is the title of his series and he is called Sonic the Hedgehog in just about every media he's in. And while the character select screen in Smash simply calls him Sonic, his trophy is called Sonic the Hedgehog. So really, Sonic should not be moved. And neither should crossover characters with well known full names. "Big (character)" is too generic. "Big the Cat" tells us that the page is about the Sonic character. The crossover page names are fine with their well known names. We don't have to limit them to what Mario would call them. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:36, May 31, 2023 (EDT) Seeing as we're only covering the characters as they appear in Mario media, I think it makes perfect sense to go with the significantly more commonly used names in said media. It's the same principle as why we can't use quotes or artwork for crossover characters that aren't from their crossover appearances, and why the naming policy says we should ignore name changes of crossover characters unless these changes appear in Mario media. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:46, May 31, 2023 (EDT) And if these full names have appeared in Mario crossover media and they have the common name as a subject in the main Mario series, it would be better to disambiguate by using the full name heard in the crossover instead of using parentheticals. If we ever get an article about a species of Fox, the Smash character shouldn't be Fox (character) or Fox (Starfox). He should be Fox McCloud, as his last name was confirmed in Smash through his Melee trophy and in Solid Snake's codec conversation. And Sonic is quite commonly known as Sonic the Hedgehog. If a character's full name is not stated in Mario crossovers, sure, I'd support them being called only by what Mario knows them as. But popular characters that have their most well known names said in the crossover should not be moved to generic names. That's why the proposal to move the Koopalings to their first names failed, because Palutena referred to them by their full names in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. And besides, we might as well move Princess Peach and Princess Daisy to simply Peach and Daisy if we're going to just go by common names. This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:33, May 31, 2023 (EDT) Honestly, I've considered moving Peach and Daisy to their shortened names (Daisy especially since she's rarely ever called "Princess Daisy") and I still wholeheartedly support that Koopalings proposal, but those are separate discussions. "This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic" - indeed, that's my exact goal, and I really don't see the issue with it. Shortening the names to be more accurate to what they're usually called doesn't make them "generic names". Once again, I'm not saying the full names don't exist, just that we should use the more common names, which we have precedent for. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, seeing as this argument is starting to go in circles. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 21:16, May 31, 2023 (EDT) Well, in my opinion, full names (while omitting middlenames) are better titles for wiki pages than just first names, especially on a wiki that has pages on everything that appears in a multimedia franchise including crossover characters. And yeah, calling Fox McCloud simply "Fox" does make the name generic, especially when editors of a Mario Wiki wouldn't immediately get that it's the Star Fox character until they see the infobox picture on his page. And besides, it's better for SEO to use the best known names that aren't just one word. Mario could stay the same because he's the trope-namer for the One Mario Limit and his last name also being Mario was debated for years. Bowser can keep his name because despite there being a Doug Bowser running Nintendo, has anyone actually called him "Bowser Koopa?" Fox McCloud in Super Smash Bros. media has the Melee trophy, Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance confirming his name. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:55, June 1, 2023 (EDT) Lol, this is starting to look more like a colab'd professorial thesis (whatever that is) than the comments section of an unremarkable proposal on a wiki about a series of children's video games, do you see how much this sentence is sticking out? BOWSER... (talk) 16:54, June 1, 2023 (EDT) Trust me, this is nothing out of the ordinary. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:06, June 1, 2023 (EDT) Wowy, I guess I'm pretty new around here. BOWSER... (talk) 17:26, June 1, 2023 (EDT) While I do agree with the proposal in theory, I have a thought: correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't this line of reasoning later be used to remove "Kong" from all of the Kong characters' names (save Charlie Brown Donkey Kong)? LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:35, June 2, 2023 (EDT) Their names almost always include "Kong" in them, so I seriously doubt it. Nightwicked Bowser 19:09, June 2, 2023 (EDT) Not necessarily. A lot of spinoff character selects and such abbreviate to first names for all except (usually) Donkey Kong, who is instead DK. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 09:39, June 3, 2023 (EDT) Yeah. A lot of people have their first names as their commonly used names. So taking the common name rule too literally like this proposal and the Koopaling proposal would reduce a lot of character pages to one-name articles. That rule about names most commonly used probably should be reworded as names not being too rare. I haven't played any Donkey Kong games, so if the Kongs are reduced to just their first names, they could lose their identity to me, because I know them better as the names from this wiki. So really, we shouldn't be taking the common name rule to be that we call everyone by the short names they are constantly called, and we definitely shouldn't use parentheticals when those characters have a longer name available. Fox has been called Fox McCloud in Mario crossover media as recent as Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Even his Fighter Spirit was named Fox McCloud. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:38, June 2, 2023 (EDT) let us be changing the person namings on internet land (Translation: Let's change the titles for these characters' articles soon.) BOWSER... (talk) 16:11, June 4, 2023 (EDT) Can't Shadow the Hedgehog be moved to Shadow (Sonic the Hedgehog)? We have multiple characters named Shadow. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:07, June 4, 2023 (EDT) Sounds good to me. I don't really think Sonic characters should get the naming priority on a Mario wiki. BOWSER... (talk) 09:30, June 5, 2023 (EDT) This proposal is now officially OVAH, can someone wrap it up I don't know how. BOWSER... (talk) 11:43, June 5, 2023 (EDT) PASSED 8-3, someone take it off plz!!! BOWSER... (talk) 14:02, June 5, 2023 (EDT) Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc. Truck#Mario Kart Tour Moving cargo trucks appear on GCN Mushroom Bridge. Stationary cargo trucks appear on the road in GCN Mushroom Bridge R, GCN Mushroom Bridge R/T, New York Minute T, New York Minute 4T, and Bangkok Rush; they also appear on the sidelines in Tokyo Blur 3, Tokyo Blur 4, New York Minute 3, New York Minute B, Los Angeles Laps, Los Angeles Laps 3, Bangkok Rush, and Bangkok Rush 2, as well as in these courses' R, T, and R/T variants where applicable. The number of courses listed in this paragraph was getting so wild that I had to condense it with the "as well as in these courses' variants" statement. Problem is, this sacrifices specificity. The proposal aims to introduce a guideline whereby lists of this ilk are more digestibly integrated in prose writing. To this end, I propose two options, each based on a format already used on some articles; the preferred format will be applied when the amount of courses listed is 7 or higher. Option 1: Bullet-point lists The subject's general description for a particular game is followed by a bulleted list of courses in said game, like so: Slippa#Donkey Kong Land Slippas appear in fifteen levels: Jungle Jaunt Freezing Fun Simian Swing Deck Trek Tire Trail Riggin' Rumble Tricky Temple Snake Charmer's Challenge Mountain Mayhem Spiky Tire Trail Kong Krazy Construction Site Fight Fast Barrel Blast Skyscraper Caper Oil Drum Slum If a subject displays different traits across one game, such as having different colours or behaviours, and these traits are described on one article as opposed to being split between articles (e.g. Bandits/Coin Bandits in Yoshi's Island), each course in the list is followed in brackets by whatever variations of this enemy appear in the course. In other words, if a subject has traits X, Y, and Z across levels A, B, C, D etc. in a game, then the level list has the following form: Level A (X variation) Level B (Y variation) Level C (X variation, Z variation) Level D (X variation, Y variation) and so on, and so forth. Option 2: Courses show up in-line when hovering/tapping a certain phrase When the seventh course is reached in a list, the courses listed from that point on are being integrated in a piece of hoverable text. Maw-Ray#Mario Kart Tour They are found in Piranha Plant Cove, Piranha Plant Cove 2, Piranha Plant Cove 3, GCN Daisy Cruiser, and some of their variants. Notice that the phrase "and some of their variants" has a dashed underline. Putting your cursor over it (on desktop) or tapping it (on mobile) reveals these course variants. If the number of courses slated to be included in hoverable text is too small (e.g. the seventh course is the only one left to mention), previous courses in the list can be integrated in the hoverable text at the editor's discretion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Note: Neither guideline will apply where a subject's course appearances are described individually, like in the Skewer article. Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk) Deadline: June 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT Option 1 Somethingone (talk) Not the biggest fan of using hover text for large swaths of important information, especially on mobile. I do agree with reformatting the big sentences though, and I am voting for this potion since it's pretty consistent for what we typically do with information like this. RealStuffMister (talk) mobile users won't be able to use the second one. MegaBowser64 (talk) I don't think it's very necessary to standardize this format, but organization and consistency are nice anyways. I personally like lists, and, as stated above, they don't affect mobile users, so this choice makes sense. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. Option 2 Just list them in a sentence outright It doesn't matter Comments I do not see the point in standardizing it, really Spectrogram (talk) 14:09, May 25, 2023 (EDT) If you don't see the point, then I suppose you could vote for the "It doesn't matter" option. Or is that not what that's for? rend (talk) (edits) 10:51, May 26, 2023 (EDT) Why should I? Abstaining is a better option when the proposal doesn't ruin anything if it passes. Spectrogram (talk) 10:58, May 26, 2023 (EDT) Split the remaining Mario Party and Mario Party 2 mini-game variants from each other Template:ProposalOutcome Building off of a discussion and proposal from the Balloon Burst talk page, I'm proposing we aim to split off the rest of the mini-games shared between Mario Party and Mario Party 2. While many of those games play almost identically between both games, many of them still feature various rule differences. Few examples: Hot Rope Jump in the first game is a survival mini-game where everyone must jump 20 times (40 in Mini-Game Island). Anyone who hits the rope loses and pays the people who didn't hit the rope money. In Mario Party 2, it becomes a last man standing game. Crane Game in the first game gives the solo player only one chance to grab something or someone, with the money they earn varying based on who or what they catch. In Mario Party 2, the solo player must grab everyone and is given the option to grab clocks to extend the timer. Grab Bag in the original has everyone stealing each other's money. In Mario Party 2, it's a battle mini-game where everyone grabs pre-disposed Mushrooms and one lucky target gets a golden one worth three points and the aim is to just have the most mushrooms. Those are just a few examples. Several other games feature differences too. And while there is the argument that "they still play the same at the core", a few things to counter that are the fact that both Mario Party: The Top 100 and Mario Party Superstars actively acknowledge the different versions of each mini-game, regardless of whether or not they had differing names or not. The Top 100 featured the MP2 version of Handcar Havoc while Superstars featured the MP version. And this extends to games with differing names, such as Hexagon Heat and Desert Dash to Mushroom Mix-Up and Dungeon Dash. And finally, this would be consistent with several other mini-games; the aforementioned ones that share the same basic concept, but have different names to the notable examples of Bowser's Bigger Blast and Beach Volleyball, which appear similar to identical to Bowser's Big Blast and Beach Volley Folly. All that being said, I don't think it's that unreasonable to split the rest of these mini-games into their own articles. The following is a list of mini-games that would be split if we split all: Hot Bob-omb Crazy Cutter Face Lift Skateboard Scamper Platform Peril Grab Bag Bumper Balls Tipsy Tourney Bombs Away Shy Guy Says Hot Rope Jump Slot-Car Derby Bowl Over Crane Game (minigame) Bobsled Run Handcar Havoc For the second option, these mini-games would be split based on having rule differences: Hot Bob-omb Hot Rope Jump Bowl Over Crane Game (minigame) And as per the comment below, the third option would split mini-games with a different names across several languages: Hot Bob-omb Face-Lift Skateboard Scamper Platform Peril Grab Bag Bowl Over Crane Game (minigame) As for the naming convention, I simply say we use the game as the identifier (Crane Game (Mario Party) to Crane Game (Mario Party 2)). It may not be how we covered Balloon Burst, mainly because many of the mini-games share the same category. Some could follow similar suits (Crazy Cutters (4-Player) to Crazy Cutters (Battle)), but I feel the titles work best. If anyone has any further thoughts or suggestions, let me know. Proposer: Tails777 (talk) Deadline: June 9, 2023, 23:59 GMT Split all mini-games Tails777 (talk) Secondary choice. Split only mini-games with rule differences Tails777 (talk) Primary choice. These mini-games have as much differences as Balloon Burst does. They may not be category changes, but they still have significant rule changes. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal. This makes the most sense to me. Mari0fan100 (talk) Rules differ for each mini-game, and they can also differ within the same mini-game. But it makes no sense to me to split mini-games with regional game differences. Mario Party: Island Tour and Mario Party 10 have multiple mini-games with regional name differences, but those mini-games aren't worth splitting because the rules are still the same. Split mini-games with regional name differences Arend (talk) The Balloon Burst split not only had the rule change, but its Japanese name was also different, so this makes the most sense to me if we gotta split. Hewer (talk) I feel like the different names show an intention to count them as different minigames, especially games like Hot Bob-omb and Crane Game where the Japanese names seem to imply they're meant to be sequels of sorts to the original games (which is the same split reasoning as Bowser's Bigger Blast). Split nothing MegaBowser64 (talk) Technically, these are the same minigames across two different games, so it just seems a bit odd to separate them seeing as there isn't too much to distinguish the different versions. I don't really see why we can't keep them on the same page and list the differences of the minigames anyway. Now, I would suggest improving the clarity and completeness of the existing articles, but separating the appearances altogether just seems a bit unorganized. PnnyCrygr (talk) Cosmetic changes across each mini game version do not warrant a split-up Waluigi Time (talk) I'm all for splits if the difference is notable (Balloon Burst) or Nintendo bothers to distinguish a visual change in the English localization (Hexagon Heat etc.) but the differences here aren't very significant. I don't think we'll benefit much from this and it'll just make navigation more confusing. Arend (talk) Secondary choice; I don't mind it if we kept the minigames merged either, and as Waluigi Time stated, most of the minigames listed only have aesthetic changes. Comments So is the idea that this would move Balloon Burst (4-Player) to Balloon Burst (Mario Party) and Balloon Burst (2 vs. 2) to Balloon Burst (Mario Party 2)? I'd support that but I don't think the Balloon Burst proposal is technically old enough to change the names. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:35, June 2, 2023 (EDT) Actually, the idea of moving Balloon Burst's name is not covered here; that would remain unaffected. This is just the idea of splitting minigames from both Mario Party and Mario Party 2 that are still merged together. I guess I should've made a list of those minigames. As for the naming, I was just mentioning it to show I'm aware that it's not following the naming idea I had. But when the time comes that we can change that, I'd openly support that move too. Heck I tried to suggest it on the proposal itself. Tails777 Talk to me! I'm also noticing a few games that are similar to the point where absolutely nothing changes (Tipsy Tourney, Shy Guy Says, Slot Car Derby etc). If people are opposed to splitting all of them, I can make an option to only split those that feature significant changes. Tails777 Talk to me! @MegaBowser64 Part of the reason I'm proposing this is because we already have many minigames that are already split, despite being nearly identical. Mushroom Mix-Up and Hexagon Heat feature no gameplay differences between versions, the only reason they're split is because they have different names. And we just recently split Balloon Burst too, which also had the same gameplay focus as in Mario Party, with the only difference being the change in category, going from a 4-Player minigame to a 2-vs-2 minigame. Otherwise, the goal is still to burst the balloon fastest and the controls are identical. And with that minigame, even the name itself was the exact same. Beyond those examples, Desert Dash and Dungeon Dash play the exact same, Tightrope Treachery and Rainbow Run play the exact same, and Mario Bandstand and Toad Bandstand are in the same category as Balloon Burst; play the same, but different category. Tails777 Talk to me! Face Lift in the first party game features you distorting Bowser's face; the next game has you distorting other characters' faces. This and other examples like this cannot make a minigame version distinguishable from another.  PnnyCrygr  21:58, June 2, 2023 (EDT) Okay, but I listed examples where the rules differ. As I said, Crane Game in Mario Party ends when the solo player catches one thing while in Mario Party 2 it ends when all three players are caught. Bowl Over in Mario Party gives the player only one shot and will take money from anyone who is hit while in Mario Party 2, the solo player is given two shots and has to hit everyone to win. Those are not cosmetic changes. Again, I can alter things to only include mini-games where the rules and aims are altered, but I feel if we do nothing, we may as well merge the two Balloon Burst mini-games back together and merge Hexagon Heat, Rainbow Run and Dungeon Dash together with their Mario Party counterparts. Hexagon Heat is as much of a cosmetic change as Face Lift is. Tails777 Talk to me! I actually think there should be an option to split the minigames based on their differing Japanese names (which also was a factor on why Balloon Burst was split). That would be the following: Hot Bob-omb Face-Lift Skateboard Scamper Platform Peril Grab Bag Bowl Over Crane Game (minigame) rend (talk) (edits) 03:19, June 3, 2023 (EDT) I could add that. While I'm more on the rule side of the split, it would be more consistent with how Balloon Burst was split. Plus, several of those games also have different names in other regions, which I feel helps support it. Tails777 Talk to me! @Waluigi Time Except Balloon Burst doesn't have any gameplay differences. The category difference doesn't change the fact that the controls to bursting the balloon are the same and the goal of bursting the balloon first is still the same. I don't exactly see how Balloon Burst is a gameplay difference when the core concepts are the same across both games. Again, my points on Crane Game and Bowl Over are that they actually change over the course of two games; requiring the solo player to eliminate all three other players instead of just one. The requirements to end a game I feel are more significant when compared to Balloon Burst. I concede that stuff like Tipsy Tourney or Shy Guy Says would be a bit excessive, but for the examples where the rules do change, I feel that should be at least a bigger focus. Tails777 Talk to me! I did look at the examples listed, but I don't really find the differences there worth splitting over. You're still doing the same things in the game, just more of it. I put more stock in Balloon Burst switching to a different type of minigame (though I'm not super committed to keeping them split, I can take it or leave it). -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:01, June 3, 2023 (EDT) @Mari0fan100: I'm assuming you misunderstood the intent of the "regional name differences" option so I'll try to clarify. The option isn't meant to split minigames that were in one game with different names in different languages/regions, it's meant to split minigames with different names between games. For example, Hot Bob-omb has a different Japanese name between Mario Party 1 and 2, so if that option passed it would split the MP1 and MP2 versions of the minigame. This doesn't apply to MP10 or Island Tour because none of their minigames were returning from previous games afaik. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:05, June 9, 2023 (EDT)