Talk:Metal Mario

This is a featured article! It represents the best of the best that the Super Mario Wiki has produced. If there are any edits that would improve the article's quality even further, make them.
Edit the article · Add to discussion (new section) · Featured articles page

Metal Mario is an enemy in Dr. Mario 64, at least that's what it says in the article. Paper Jorge ( Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.·Contributions·) 20:03, 11 October 2006 (EDT)

Good call. I totally forgot about Dr. Mario 64. He is the final boss of the Wario storyline. Thanks. =) -- Son of Suns

how can i unlock him in MG64??™ I'm happy

Anyone Else Get the I still wanna kill myself thing on this page? It's weird! really! User:Mecha-Boss Unit

Is he unlockable in any other mario sports games? User:Gamer2.1

Doubt it, he's not exactly what I'd call famous Marioguy1 (talk)

Split into "Metal Mario" into two articles

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

split 6-1
This article currently covers two subjects. While related, they are distinct enough to merit individual articles and should therefore be split. These two subjects are the metal form resulting from power-ups, and the character of Metal Mario introduced in the Super Smash Bros. series and seen in other media since. The inclusion of the two on the same article is misleading, and may confuse readers into thinking the Metal Mario character is playable in games that he is not.

Due to this, I suggest we split the two subjects into two different articles. One would describe the general metal form and all characters that have used it, while the other article would only cover Metal Mario as a character that has appeared as a distinct character in multiple media.

Proposer: Redstar (talk)
Deadline: January 19th, 2010, 23:59 GMT

Split into separate "Metal Mario (form)" and "Metal Mario (character)" articles

1. Redstar (talk) - Per proposal.
2. Edofenrir (talk) - Makes sense. In addition it would be better to merge Metal Wario with Metal Form, instead of Metal Mario (provided the Proposal on Talk:Metal Wario passes, of course).
3. MATEOELBACAN (talk) - Per All, I think that the two articles must be separated and have information of their respective games (Ex: Anyone can be Metal in SSBB <.<)
4. Reversinator (talk) Per Redstar.
5. Walkazo (talk) - Per Redstar. Also, if there's a page for the Metal Mario character, Metal Luigi should keep his own character page, with any information pertaining to the form in general going into the Metal Mario form page.
6. Clarkmaster (talk) Per Redstar

Leave un-split

1. Zero777 (talk) I am Zero! Leave it as is, what is metal form is going to say, it probably be a small artile. Zero signing out.

Comments

I was actually probably going to revise this proposal. If the article was renamed "Metal Form", then all the other forms would have to be moved likewise (such as "Fire Form", "Frog Form", etc.) While that is beneficial because the alternate name tag is sort of an eye-sore, it serves its purpose and I'm not sure if anyone would support such a radical change. So, I was just going to try to merge Metal Wario here and add the alternate name tag, then try to split this off into "Metal Mario (character)". However, if you think the term "Form" would be more professional for these types of articles, feel free to say so and I can create a community proposal. Otherwise I'll just revise this proposal. Redstar 03:14, 18 December 2009 (EST)

Hm... It's definitelly an issue that needs to be talked about... However, this decision should not be something solely based on my opinion, so hopefully we will get some other comments here. - Gabumon^(talk) 03:23, 18 December 2009 (EST)

@Zero: Zero, please hold off on voting until we resolve the issue of merging Metal Wario here and whether we change the naming convention for such articles. In any case, the split-off article wouldn't be any shorter than any other form article. Redstar 01:10, 19 December 2009 (EST)

The proposal seemed to have been confusing, as well as rather bloated, so I re-wrote it to clarify what exactly the proposal is attempting to do. Anyone that has voted before, or is considering to vote, please re-read the initial proposal and re-consider your position if you so choose. Redstar 22:07, 22 December 2009 (EST)

@Reversinator: Not really. The information would literally just be split in half. Putting the same information on both pages would be both redundant and off-topic, since information relating to each subject isn't compatible. Redstar 22:35, 22 December 2009 (EST)

@Reversinator: Each article would have about the same amount of information, though composed of different material. This article, on the form, would start with "Metal Mario is a form first introduced in Super Mario 64..." while the other article would start with "Metal Mario is a character based on Mario first appearing in the game Super Smash Bros.." This article would cover all the instances when the player can turn Mario into Metal Mario as a form, while the other article would cover all instances where Metal Mario appeared as a distinct character rather than as a form. Here, let me show you where each of the sections would go:

1. Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS --> form
2. Mario Golf 64 --> character
3. Dr. Mario 64 --> character
4. Super Smash Bros. --> character
5. Super Smash Bros. Melee --> character
6. Super Smash Bros Brawl --> form
7. Mario Party 7 --> form
8. Mario Strikers Charged Football --> form

As you can see, a near equal amount of information would go on each article. As it stands now, the same article covers both the form and the character, which it simply should not do. If Mario can't turn into Metal Mario, but can face it as a distinct character, then the two shouldn't be considered the same. Redstar 17:11, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Fine, you got me. But what about Metal Luigi? Reversinator (talk)

Metal Luigi the character should keep his own page, with the general Luigi-in-metal-form stuff going on the Metal Mario form page. Same deal with Metal Wario. Also, in Redstar's above list, SSB and SSBM should both contribute information to the "form" page in the same way that SSBB does (Metal Box usage). - Walkazo 01:23, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Redstar's the one who wanted Metal Wario to be merged, so I want his opinion. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Though Metal Luigi as a character makes for a very short article due to one appearance, it would merit standing on its own for consistency. As for Metal Wario; I don't see any indication of it being anything other than just a form. Redstar 18:02, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Sorry, I had read that Metal Wario made a stand-alone appearance in a game somewhere, but upon further investigation I discovered that you're right: its just a form. - Walkazo 00:33, 25 December 2009 (EST)

I would merge Metal Luigi with the Metal Mario character article, and another thing is; The Metal Luigi article has information about the character and the form(The Mario Party part, if you've read the article). What to do? --Garlic Man (talk)

The stuff about the generic form should be merged, but if the Metal Mario character gets a separate page, so should the Metal Luigi character. - Walkazo 22:23, 16 January 2010 (EST)

I agree, but so far Metal Luigi has only be a distinct character (not a form of Luigi) in SSBM. It'll have for a short article. Redstar 13:47, 18 January 2010 (EST)

Should we re-merge these?

Since these were split, we have seen Tanooki Mario, Cat Peach, Gold Mario, and MANY more in MKT appear as "distinct" from their non-powerup form. Ergo, keeping these split seems silly now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:05, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Metal Mario's a special case, though, since he has the history to back up his appearances, like his appearance in the Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Dr. Mario 64, and Smash Bros. Honestly, if the aforementioned characters also started appearing regularly as their own thing in more than one game, then perhaps we could argue that but as of now, I think it's fine leaving it the way as it is. Ray Trace^(T|C) 15:08, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Gold Mario has been appearing frequently as a standalone entity, though. To say nothing of Dry Bowser. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:11, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Not really leaning one way or the other at the moment, but Metal Mario in this case could be compared to Dr. Mario - he's the only one split because he's the "original" with an extensive history and there's sufficient info to carry an article. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:37, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Dr. Mario's always considered separate, though. (Also there's a metal Dr. Mario :P). Metal Mario in Smash 1 is absolutely a reference specifically to the SM64 form (note how Meta Crystal is based off the Cavern of the Metal Cap), so I'd consider it part of the design history of the concept as a whole, which is what we really should be shooting for. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:59, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

The comparison was in the sense that Dr. Mario is the only doctor form of anyone to get his own page because the others haven't been around nearly as long with a lot less to say about them. It's a similar situation with Metal Mario and the rest of the "forms as unique-ish entities". -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:28, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

"Metal Luigi" has an article, though, despite as-a-distinct-entity his only appearance is a tacked-on bit to SSBM's Adventure Mode Metal Mario fight after Luigi's unlocked (and thus, is not truly independent of Metal Mario). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:33, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Do the characters in Mario Kart Tour even have their own voice clips? Aside from the one-off appearances from Tanooki and Cat guys, do any other alt come with their own set of unique voice clips? Metal Mario has, except for Mario Tennis Open and Mario Sports Superstars, and sometimes, he's just mute altogether. Ray Trace^(T|C) 19:22, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Dr. Mario and Metal Mario have enough material as separate characters to stand on their own. Can't really say the same for Tanooki Mario in Mario Kart or Dr. Peach in Dr. Mario World. I'm not entirely sure on Metal Luigi. 19:25, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

You're still ignoring that Dr. Mario is still only split from basic Mario, while this is Metal Mario split from what is already Metal Mario. Please note the Dry Bowser comparison, who can be literally Bowser with flesh removed in one game and simply be "an old family friend" in another. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:34, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Even so, one Metal Mario is a power-up (that isn't even exclusive to Mario, but it's the same pattern as Tanooki Mario) and the other is a separate character from Mario. Both are going to have different attributes. They are two different things with the same name. 19:40, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

They're the same concept, which for a fictional limited-continuity franchise is how we should be grouping things. Again, see my description of the Dry Bowser situation: he can be both explicitly an alternate form of Bowser and explicitly a separate character from him, but we don't have "Dry Bowser (form)" split from "Dry Bowser (character)," nor should we. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:07, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

...Where is it explained they are the same concept, when they act completely different? That is not how we group things. Should we merge Headbonk Goomba with Goomba? They both headbonk and are both Goombas, even though they look different, are named differently, and act differently due to the genre they are found in?

Dry Bowser has pretty much stood as a separate character all on his own, with the only time he appears as a form of Bowser being New Super Mario Bros. In every other instance (at least from my understanding of New Super Mario Bros. 2), he appears as his own character separate from Bowser. So a split wouldn't really make sense there. 21:30, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

3DL, MP10, and BJJ, too. Also, your Goomba thing is flawed: the name here is the same, they look identical (and make the same "clang!" in SM64 and SSB iirc), and act the same in that they are "Mario but heavy." Also, the design histories affect each other, as I have pointed out. Headbonk Goomba was merely a cross-genre behavior callback that used the SMAS SMB castle palette as a subtle nod. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:46, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

I don't think Bowser actually turns into Dry Bowser in 3D Land, Dry Bowser just appears and nothing causes it iirc.

One other thing that is keeping me from agree with this merge is that Metal Mario as a character is specifically Metal Mario. No other character in the Mario games has had a metal counterpart aside from Pink Gold Peach, which is her own thing that... really came from nothing. For the power-up, anyone can become metal in the Mario Party and Super Smash Bros. series, and Wario can become metal in Super Mario 64 DS. Even if you ignore Super Smash Bros., Metal Mario as a character is capable of standing on his own. 22:00, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Even going off that, I'd say most of those cases can still be merged. The sole exception to that would be Metal Bowser, perhaps, but he could be made a footnote or split off outright (we have a "Super Bowser," after all...and the differing contexts between that and Super Mario aren't too far removed from this). Also, note how circumstance has caused some of our character and species articles (comparable situation IMO) to become merged, like Wiggler, Draggadon, and Dorrie. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:17, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

The article would just be a mess, you really want it to go back and forth between power-up and character? Also, why is Metal Bowser the outlier? That's just as relevant as Metal Zelda, unless there's a non-Smash form I don't know about. 22:22, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Because Metal Mario still exists in an identical capacity, ergo is the same situation for why Fire Mario covers Fire Rosalina? Metal Bowser is there because of a Mario Party cutscene thing. Also, again, I don't see this as much of a "character" as an "alternative appearance" of Mario, a la Baby Mario appearing alongside normal Mario. He gets his own article, but treating him as a "separate character" from Mario is silly. It's a concurrent alternative take, which is easily cohered with the powerup. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:44, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Furthermore, the "character/power-up" split is completely arbitrary with Metal Mario's SSBM trophy, which doesn't bother distinguishing the two at least in English. SmokedChili (talk) 10:52, April 6, 2020 (EDT)

Indeed! This means the current setup is in open defiance of Nintendo's own take on the matter. Personally, I don't think that's the right thing to do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:48, April 6, 2020 (EDT)

Also fun fact, the Metal Mario Spirit from Smash Ultimate, which uses the Mario Kart 7 artwork (from the "character"), is grouped with the power-ups & forms of Mario, like Boo Mario, the Super Star, etc. I doubt even Nintendo today counts them as separate characters, so why should we? I mean that's just my personal opinion. --Metalex123 (talk) 15:22, April 7, 2020 (EDT)

I know this conversation hasn't been brought up in a long time but Metal Mario as in the "character" such as in the Mario Kart games and Mario Tennis Open lacks irises for his eyes as of Mario Kart 7, while games such as Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition along with Metal Luigi and Nintendo TOKYO merch that features the Metal Cap beside him, gives the "form" irises. The reason why Gold Mario has irises on his eyes in Mario Golf World Tour is because he is proven to be Mario himself because in his double bogey animation he gets hit by a shell and reverts back to regular/Super Mario and not to mention Gold Mario's voice clips isn't a robotic-like voice but re-used from Mario's. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 23:22, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

And the problem with this is that it follows the same train of logic as "the character Toad is the only red Toad who has a blue vest" despite that being patently false. SM64 Metal Mario lacks eyes whatsoever, making the point moot. Smash Bros. seems to be what "separated" them to begin with, yet their own profiles in them affirm them to be the same. Also, Metal Mario's voice isn't "robotic," it's just warbled. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:33, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

Except Toads are species you aren't wrong that there are more blue vested ones while there is red vested ones too, but of course there is going to be lots of them, because again they are species. There were no Metal Boxes as an item in the original Super Smash Bros. until Super Smash Bros. Melee and neither was it shown that there were multiple Metal Marios like how there is a team of "Marios" let's say, there is only one Metal Mario in that game. Metal Mario in the Mario spin-off games acts the opposite from regular Mario especially his lines differing. Except that is the form that debuted in the game and the model didn't show any outline of the sclera because it was a metal texture over Mario's model and replacing the textures. While Metal Mario the character did have no eyes in Super Smash Bros and Mario Golf because he was a metal texture over Mario's model as well as other textures including the mustache, emblem and buttons, he was given irises "only" in Dr. Mario 64, though that part was because Dr. Mario accidentally ate the Mega Vitamins despite being a form for his final fight, and he is a separate character in that game as a playable which is technically both for this game only and that is without another Mario, rather than a alternate skin along with Vampire Wario, so on top of that, it would conflict and be too debatable to warrant as merge because we may as well mention that Metal Mario is a character and a form on both of the articles which would be confusing and misleading what the article is about. So, other than that, Metal Mario the "character" has lacked irises more often than the form, Metal Mario. I know Metal Mario's voice isn't robotic but I didn't know how to describe it better but still you're right on that there. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:03, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Again, these don't matter. Mario was a toy in Super Smash Bros., so the situation regarding how he relates to Metal Mario in that game is moot. As for his Western addition to Mario Golf, that was also the first game to have Mario alongside Baby Mario, so it's clear they didn't really care about whether the characters were separate so much as having a wide roster. In any case, the point is that this is an arbitrarily split subject when Nintendo themselves explicitly considers them the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:23, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

These don't all matter? You just ignored my point with Dr. Mario 64. Well there is such thing as time travel as shown with Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time and also Baby Luigi didn't even appear in that game. So does that make Pink Gold Peach "not" separate despite not appearing as a power-up (if she would ever be) in a game outside of Mario Kart 8 and being alongside Peach, we don't even know if it would be Peach's gold or metal form anyways? Metal Mario has his own voice lines, his voice varies a lot and he has his own traits different from Mario himself. Gold Mario in Mario Golf: World Tour proves he is Mario himself due to reusing the same voice clips as well. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:36, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

It doesn't matter because Nintendo, the creator and rights-holder, explicitly considers them the same. Subverting that is, therefore, merely fanon and has no place on here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:38, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I'm sorry what? Do you even have full proof, that they are the 100% the same at all? Unless fully proven otherwise, this doesn't make it a fact coming from what you only believe in. Also there is more evidence that Metal Mario is also his own [1]. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:45, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

It was stated in the above comments. Melee's trophy describes them as the same thing, while Ultimate's spirits use the "character" artwork in the section where Mario's power-up forms are all amassed. Also, that thing you just linked? Not an official source, so worth absolutely nothing to all this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:07, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

"In Super Smash Bros., Metal Mario showed up as an incredibly stubborn midlevel boss. That also implies he is his own character too, especially this is referring to Metal Mario just in general. Also Metal Mario's bio on Mario Kart 7 describes him more that he is his own character being refereed to as Mario's "rival". Oh so you're just trying so hard to shut me down by acting like I'm completely wrong. Just because it wasn't taken by an official site doesn't mean they are wrong in fact that is what Metal Mario does in all the info they mentioned, I know Source Gaming you know. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:17, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

By virtue of describing the SM64 form and SSB boss in the same blurb (note how the game they list in the bottom thingy is SM64), the SSBM trophy confirms them the same. As for the outside of game MK7 description, again, iterations of the same idea can take multiple forms, but that does not make them a different concept or entity. Metal Mario can be a character or a form, but the point is Nintendo themselves considers them the same thing in either case. As such, so should we, lest we be in open defiance on the official take on the matter. There is no line between character and form in this case. Rather, it's a gradient. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:24, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I still agree with everyone else that they are both separate and a power-up. This reminds me the opposite way where Nintendo said that King K. Rool's trophy states that Kaptain K. Rool is actually King K. Rool's brother. However, this is regarded as either a mistake by Nintendo, or a tongue-in-cheek joke in the vein of the Mr. L reference in Paper Luigi's trophy. So I find it a bit hard to believe it on Metal Mario's trophy and it could be like that for Metal Mario's spirit too, especially it's just a PNG image they just randomly chosen likely, especially one time Nintendo took a fan sprite image of the Mask Man based from Mother 3 [2] when they had all the resources kept in their archives. The Poison Mushroom is another mistakable example too, it says that it debuts in Super Mario All-Stars in the western releases of Super Smash Bros. Melee, despite Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels being re-released, the base game but updated for the west, western wise that is true but it's true debut is Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels and even other Japanese only-game trophies list their actual games in the western release including the Bucket from Mario & Wario and the Monster from 3D Hot Rally and saying Japan-only. It's pretty inconsistent as it is, so it's not entirely accurate to use as the perfect source despite being official games by Nintendo, so until then there needs to be better sources to prove that Metal Mario is really just simply a form and it's too debatable, so until there is full confirmation, they should remain split. Also Metal Mario's series logo in Super Smash Bros for the Nintendo 64 is metallic and that is "only" unique to him. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:13, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Why are you acting like I'm the only one who wants to merge? Metalex said he wanted to. Also, your proof here amounts to a big "what if." While Melee trophies have some mistakes, claiming one for a made-up distinction is not. Also, what does the texture of an icon in a game filled to the brim with early installment weirdness have to do with anything? For that matter, the fact that Meta Crystal is so blatantly inspired by the same mishmash of location traits of thisMedia:Metal Mario Scene Artwork - Super Mario 64.png SM64 artwork makes splitting them further ludicrous. Their design histories would be inseparably entwined if it weren't for the fact that they're the same thing anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:27, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

That's just you two only agreeing and why are you so obsessed with wanting to merge so many articles just because it isn't in your way? Still the trophies and spirits will have mistakes and inaccurate information which doesn't give enough proof regardless if it's right or wrong even if they are pretty good, it's not the best reliable source to use only. I just said, because Nintendo can just simply be using some PNG images found from the internet and that Masked Swordsman fan image can be found online giving evidence that they indeed do take artwork from images online and they I quote "could" just simply chose that Metal Mario because it's a Metal Mario image. I can see where you are coming from with the Meta Crystal stage, but that can be argued that Yoshi himself owns the Yoshi's Island stage in the Smash games despite Yoshi himself not being that "green" Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:47, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

(restarting indent) What? Yoshi is the green Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. As stated on his page, any Yoshi may be called "Yoshi" as a character, but it doesn't necessarily make them the same. This is straight from Nintendo's mouth. As for Yoshi's Story, the manual refers to them all as "Yoshi" as in a name. As for Metal Mario here, there hasn't been a single profile that has said anything remotely close to "don't mistake him for Mario with the Metal Cap." You know why that is? Because it's a distinction made-up by fans. Nintendo doesn't acknowledge it because it never existed in the first place. Regardless, acting like subjects can only have one role in gameplay each is very bad for the wiki in such a loose franchise as this. Remember the Miyamoto quote where he likened the cast to a group of actors who had variable roles like in an old Popeye cartoon? Same principle. Metal Mario, like the rest, can be a form or a character whenever Nintendo decides to, and they don't see it as a different entity at all. Also, please get off your high horse regarding agreement, only like two other people spoke in favor of keeping merged and neither of them have said a thing since the Smash profiles detail was brought up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:45, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I'm in agreement with Doc. For that matter, there is value in reevaluating older approaches such as the "playable appearance=CHARACTER" method, because that was the mantra at a time when the idea was to get as many articles up as possible for the mere sake of search engine traffic and not many predicted things like Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia would happen. Now that the Super Mario Wiki is not such a humble little wiki anymore (and really hasn't been for some time if we're being honest with ourselves), with currently over 23,640 articles and counting, there is simply not much of a need for "the more, the merrier" to be the end-all slogan. To that end, splitting an article between "form" and "character" has even less basis than the "species" and "character" splits preceding it to the point that I'm almost surprised there was never a "Baby Mario (present day)" article. Gamermakerguy, you're acting like the Masked Man spirit wasn't soon corrected (note Mother 3 didn't have character artwork in its final GBA iteration, and other spirits using artwork are presented in higher quality than they previously had been, indicating someone mistakenly thought the custom pixel art was the source image), or that Nintendo wasn't in a very distinct phase where they wanted to hide the fact that Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels was previously released as Super Mario Bros. 2 in Japan (mainly mentioning it offhand in Nintendo Power because rival magazines were proud to say it first and then the Internet made continuing the charade unfeasible). Also, it's laughable to use Source Gaming to prove a point, because I've found there are plenty of times where they present opinion as fact to try to cover up certain biases (such as this infamous piece rationalizing Wario's characterization as mostly the product of localization despite the fact that he nonetheless basically replaces Bowser in his debut appearance, who himself was portrayed silly in stuff like RPGs but is still understood as the main villain) and that author probably casually referenced this wiki. The only place I agree that the Super Smash Bros. series likely made an error is with Kaptain K. Rool, and even then, you admit a Mr. L-esque joke is still the possible explanation (and Ultimate essentially erases it). LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:17, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Doc, where does it mention that? It can easily be mistaken that the green Yoshi could be Yoshi himself and besides that article needs lots of improvements anyways? Does the manual for Yoshi's Island say that the particular green Yoshi is the character then? No, they refer to "Yoshi" as the name of the "species" which is "a" Yoshi in the Yoshi's Story manual. This is the part where you're making something up without showing me a proper source that "oh Nintendo doesn't acknowledge Metal Mario as a character too" where did they said that? It sounds like you're just trying to make up your own facts without showing very proper proof of it just because you can't accept what I'm telling you. LinkTheLefty, Hey! I know they changed the Masked Man spirit in a later version and I know there was not much artwork which is why they used the sprite of the Masked Man instead, don't act like I'm a complete a moron! Still they used the fan sprite first, however, by accident. You know what else is laughable about!? It's where you're also being a complete jerk towards me thinking I'm some kind of joke for showing the closest source I could find. That's real nice of you to make fun of me...wow --Gamermakerguy (talk) 13:01, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Yoshi's Story manual. "Yoshi doesn't need air while swimming." "Yoshi's proudest move." "You can aim Yoshi's tongue." "If something is discovered, Yoshi will tell you." "The size of the explosion will change depending on Yoshi's Mood." "Did you learn how to operate Yoshi?" "This indicator will show you Yoshi's Mood. When he eats yummy food, his Mood gets better." Need I go on? There's plenty more times they use it like that there. Also, you're massively projecting. You have been nothing but massively condescending to me for the entire time you've been in this debate. You're demanding a specific instance of proof for Nintendo not saying something while providing at best laughably biased sources yourself. That's not how burden of proof works. Anyways, if that is indeed the closest source you can find, maybe the takeaway should be to reconsider your stance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:26, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

For the record, Gamermakerguy, when I say using that source is "laughable", I'm directing my comment towards the (in my opinion) overrated fan-site with a history of editorializing, not at you. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:17, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Well you have been using your own bias against me and acting like you're right at everything and using it like it's a fact to you just for you to try so desperately hard to prove me wrong. Well, I already find it laughable that you not only find my source not good "to you" but your so "called" proper sources are also not even accurate enough either and is debatable in different games and my source isn't really that great either, so what else do you want me to show a random Wikipedia article? --Gamermakerguy (talk) 13:42, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

We can do without the call-outs and insults. You are capable of having a discussion without using them. 13:51, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

...my sources have been in-game descriptions and manual scans. What more do you want? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:02, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Well some profiles say otherwise for the character Metal Mario including Metal Mario's profile on the official Mario Kart 7 site, especially in the games he says corrupted words that Mario himself never says. If Mario did say those. I would've believed it more to be a form. Especially Gold Mario in New Super Mario Bros. 2 has his voice clips the same as himself and for what I said in Mario Golf World Tour, finally, Gold Mario shares Metal Mario's voice clips in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe --Gamermakerguy (talk) 14:12, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

And we don't consider the form/character Gold Mario separate from each other. Also, the MK7 profile doesn't mean it's a separate entity; indeed, he acts as a rival for that game. He's not like Metal Sonic where it's an actual recurring rival character. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:16, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

The thing is Gold Mario is a direct skin to Metal Mario in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Mario Kart Tour further implies that Metal Mario is also an entity since he is just called "Metal Mario" rather than "Metal Mario (Mario)", Gold Mario obviously isn't separate, despite having his own slow in Mario Golf: World Tour and as I've said, Gold Mario in that game is confirmed to be Mario himself because his Double Bogey Animation shows him getting hit by a shell and he reverts to Super/Regular Mario and Metal Mario is not in the game, which Gold Mario is proven to be an upgraded character to unlock by DLC, kind of like Ultra Barrel DK from Donkey Kong Barrel Blast who is an upgraded Donkey Kong. LinkTheLefty...my bad, sorry I was made fun of a lot and hold bitterness towards to this day, sorry for the misunderstanding and getting mad at you there, but now that I think about it you aren't wrong about them, especially there "rate that character for Smash" videos they make and I love how they made it a low percentage chance for Daisy to appear even though she got in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate which is laughable. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 14:24, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Well it already has a specific name, like Ice Mario. And by the same token, Gold Mario isn't "Metal Mario (Gold Mario)" either. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:48, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

"Ice Mario appears as a variant to Metal Mario due to sharing the same animations as him and lacking irises (although they still can be seen in his artwork, which is reused from Super Mario Galaxy), but has the same voice clips as regular Mario's (albeit with a harsher reverb)" which is different from Mario himself at least. All of the other Mario costumes that isn't Metallic-like still uses regular Mario's voice clips based from the regular Mario's base. To be honest, they could've also called him "Metal Mario (Gold)" but either of those names from the previous messages of our naming for Metal Mario would've been rather misleading and off-putting implying they would be the same exact thing/power-up from their playable base while Gold Mario and Ice Mario is only a selectable variant to Metal Mario which the power-up forms obviously aren't the same. Like how I called Metal Mario, Gold Mario (Metal Mario) which would be too much of text space and a mouth full to say, likely from being too long on the profiles and menus. Especially since Metal Mario the form came first before both the character and the Gold Mario power-up and variant of the Metal Mario character. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 17:00, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

So? I'm not suggesting to merge it with Mario. Metal Mario uses different animations from normal Mario due to those being recycled from MK7 and MK8, where there wasn't a situation of half the roster being variants. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:47, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I never said you were wanting the character Metal Mario to be merged with Mario himself and besides it would be extremely cluttered since Mario's article is quite huge. That still doesn't change the fact that it's his own animations while differing from regular Mario and they are different from each other in Mario Kart 7/8/8 Deluxe from the start regardless if it was recycled into a new game or not. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 18:33, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

That has literally nothing to do with whether this page should be merged with the split Metal Mario. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:36, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

"So? I'm not suggesting to merge it with Mario.", well neither for what you just said there. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 18:53, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

The analogues for which you are bringing up suggest I am attempting to merge this with Mario as your argument seems to be that he is not treated as a variant of Mario in MK animations. However, I want to merge the Metal Mario articles together. Another example I've brought up is Dry Bowser. He can be both a skeletonized Bowser and "a family friend," yet he has only one article. This should be no different from that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:02, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Tanooki Mario and Baby Mario have their own voices once again, while Tanooki Mario in Mario Kart 8/Deluxe uses different voice clips they are regular still Mario's. Metal Mario in the spin-offs does NOT use any of regular Mario's clips otherwise that would seem believable that it's only a form. Omg...I NEVER said you were merging this article to Mario's, cut it out already! I was just making a statement. The difference between the "separate" and "form" of Dry Bowser is that the form is a undead skeletal form of Bowser when he falls in lava that's part of him already and both this separate and form are 100% identically the same in appearance while the "character" and "form" of Metal Mario has no irises and does so respectively in the current games. Keep in mind that Bowser himself can also clone himself since the very beginning that he debuted as he makes fake copies of himself (especially we can't tell if Pom Pom is a species there is more of her/them but they could be her clones she creates from Super Mario 3D World). --Gamermakerguy (talk) 20:05, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

You never said it, but the arguments you were making would only work if I was. Anyways, the eyes are clearly a stylistic choice, Dry Bowser was referred to specifically by Bowser as "an old family friend" in one game (as said in his own article), and Tanooki Mario is just further proof that this page being split is inconsistent with everything else. Anyways, please remember the "no distinction between character and species of same name in Japanese language of origin" principle, too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:09, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

I've said this before, but Japanese naming does not mean much, especially since the Metal Marios have the same name in Japanese and English. Two subjects can share the same name, we split or merge based on characteristics. Playable Metal Mario is far more vast than the power-up, and merging them would just make the page look messy in my opinion, going back and forth between playable and power-up. Just because they have the same name does not mean they are the same thing.

The irises are kind of a weak point, though. That doesn't really determine anything. 01:16, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

While I'm aware of the Japanese and English rule, the two Ice Mario's especially have the same Japanese names and function completely different, not even the one from Super Mario Galaxy shoots Iceballs (not counting Ice Mario in Mario Kart Tour shooting Iceballs from the Ice Flower which comes from the NSMBWii version of the item itself) despite the Ice Flower first appearing in M&L:PiT allowing the ability to shoot Iceballs before SMG changed its function completely, even recent merch is using SMG Ice Mario rather than NSMBWii's version with the 2D merch, Also about Tanooki Mario, Metal Mario the character is also one of the main bosses in some games, notably in Super Smash Bros., none of the other powered-up Mario's are actual bosses. So far Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach have only been there to fill a slot only in ONE game. While Dry Bowser both the form and character is an actual boss which makes more sense to have it be one article. As for the eyes I got nothing to say about that minor part anymore. But I agree that merging the two Metal Mario articles would be messy and even more misleading. Because we may as well make both Ice Mario's also merge just because they are both called Ice Mario even in other regions including Japan are named the same but are way too different. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:46, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Honestly, I feel the Smash Bros. thing amounts to "he was a cool thing from an iconic recent game" that sorta became an artifact afterwards. Sorta like Jigglypuff's continued existence in those games. And @Alex, how about Meta Crystal's blatant callback to the Metal Cap Cavern? That to me indicates they are indeed intended as an alternate take on the same thing. (Like how Mario in Donkey Kong Jr. is "an alternate take on the same thing as Mario.") It's up to Nintendo's discretion whether it's a form or a distinct entity. And of course, there's the Melee trophy and Ultimate spirit. If Smash is what made them different, why are they so gung-ho about them being the same? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:57, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

So does that make Pink Gold Peach not a separate entity despite being made of a type of metal and having no power-up origin then? If she ever ended up as a power-up afterwards (if that will ever happen, lol) you wanting to merge them just because it gets a power-up form despite being a character first then? What does Jigglypuff have anything to do with it? It's a playable fighter and one of the original twelves that appears as a veteran in every Smash game like the other eleven. If "teh" Metal Mario was an artifact at the time why did Metal Mario end up getting a slot in Mario Golf for himself making it "his" Mario franchise debut "after" Super Smash Bros, it makes a big difference for him to appear outside from Smash and of course Dr. Mario 64 while years later returning to Mario Kart 7 then? Smash's trophies and spirits and are already a mess especially for what I explained about K. Rool's trophy, the Poison Mushroom and the Mr. L trophy errors. The character Metal Mario was inspired by a very famous power-up, it's that iconic and a similar situation to how Fake Crash from the Crash Bandicoot series is inspired by poorly made plushes which is where he was made and the character Metal Mario which he represents the Meta Crystal representing the inspiration elements from the Cavern of the Metal Cap. It's not exactly the same place but just "inspired" by it to just simply make a reference. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:36, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Mr. L wasn't an error, it was a joke. Poison Mushroom was a last-ditch attempt at covering up Lost Levels being Japanese SMB2. K. Rool was likely an error, but that was just one thing in one game, unlike what I listed (which persists to the present day with Ultimate). Pink Gold Peach isn't really applicable here, since unlike Cat Peach, it adds a further differentiator with the "Pink" identifier. Mario Golf had Baby Mario (and also Metal Mario was an American addition), which combined with it having Smash-esque multiplayer recolors shows that they didn't really care who was "separate." I brought up Jigglypuff because it's another example of a character who solely reappears due to appearing in the original; Jigglypuff hasn't been relevant as an entity for decades, but was a new thing then, like the Metal-head. Metal Mario in Dr. Mario 64 was a transformation, from a different "power-up." Trash Bandicoot was, as you said, inspired by a licensed toy, and as such is merely a jab at the design of some grotesque parody. Heck, on the subject of Crash, I'd say the appearance of Twinsanity's "Evil Crash" in Tag Team Racing as a costume would count as a cameo of the character. And yes, while Meta Crystal isn't the Metal Cap Cavern itself, the fact that it derives inspiration is clearly a context clue towards its denizen being the same thing. Basically, what it amounts to "Nintendo has said they're the same thing, and hasn't said they're different." Therefore, saying they're different is in open defiance of the only official word we have. Which is a bad thing to do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:47, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

I don't quite get how Meta Crystal being similar in design to the Metal Cap Cavern proves anything one way or the other. As far as this debate is concerned, it only proves that, assuming he does in fact exist for the sake of this argument, Metal Mario the character is Metal Mario the form now as a unique entity, which should already be obvious. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 21:40, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Still, the Poison Mushroom trophy was inconsistent compared to the other obscure Japanese elemental trophies that actually mark "Japan only" even if they seemingly were hiding it for the Lost Levels in the west. Also after doing some research, the trophies actually have quite a bit of errors and inconsistencies even I compared the trophy galleries in a trophy gallery video for each Smash game until Brawl (which is why I took long to reply) with this post to make sure it was legit, this is showing that trophy info isn't really that reliable to use as the #1 source, especially it can also be from poor translating from the games being made from Japan. While not listed on the site that shows a list of trophy errors, the Metal Box trophy has an error, despite being replaced by red ? Blocks in Super Mario 64 DS, the Super Smash Bros. for Wii U trophy lists the game as one of the Metal Box's appearances, it's like as if they are treating them the same even though they aren't especially different blocks, only Wario can get Metal power from hitting the ? Blocks in the DS remake and they sure never said they are different for some reason...? I'm aware that Metal Mario only appears in the western releases of Mario Golf (Which applies the opposite where Fake Crash appeared in the infamous Crash Bash for Japan only as a playable), Baby Mario isn't a power-up or even based from one which is comparing apples to oranges from the Metal Mario situation here, though yes he is also Mario but from the past, while M&L: PiT shows time travel is part of the series, even in general media of different games and shows, especially in the Luigi's Mansion games having time travel, Baby Mario is also representing the Yoshi's Island games way more specifically, especially being paired with Yoshi in the Mario Golf intro and the duos courts for Mario Tennis. The Mario series never made sense for that part aside anyways for the time travel. So? What does that make for the likes of Yoshi then? Despite being both his character (being "a" green Yoshi) and species. What I did say is true that Dr. Mario accidentally ate the mega vitamins and became who I prefer calling but I know his name is "Metal Mario" in the roster and to fit text space "Dr. Metal Mario", but for one, this is the only game and it hasn't showed something like this again since and this also happened to Wario to become Vampire Wario and compared to the "character" Metal Mario, Vampire Wario has no relevance these days since the form never appears, especially being abandoned in Wario Land 4 those replacing it as "Vampire Bat Wario" unlike Metal Mario is more recurring as a boss even outside Smash or a simple rival to fight. You're right about the cameo for Evil Crash of Tag Team Racing and Fake Crash's origins. Indeed the Meta Crystal does serve inspiration to the two locations I mentioned previously from Super Mario 64, that doesn't equally confirm that is indeed Metal Mario as a form. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:34, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

I fail to see why power-up should be treated different from any other alternate form (and besides, Miyamoto originally wanted the caped Baby Mario to be the fully grown Mario). Anyways, the Meta Crystal proves that this Metal Mario is derived from the SM64 concept, and due to having the same name in all languages and soundbytes in that game, it's honestly kinda ludicrous to split those over role. "Time Travel" isn't really the case here; the games each exist in whatever level of continuity they want at any given time. That Metal Box I'd say is an error (provided they didn't just mean "box with a metal-granting powerup in general regardless of design" which is a distinct possibility), but the use of Metal Mario (character)'s artwork for spirit when they could have used the SM64 Metal Mario art can't be a coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:56, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Just to clarify, almost every legitimate trophy error can be chalked down to a minor localization oversight, not really at any noticeably higher rate than usual. Even some of the follow-up posts in that link admit that some of the original observations are reaching. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:11, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

You just basically brought up a scrapped design of a form and not relevant unless it happened. It's only Metal Mario that is his own character. It could also fit to the ascetic of the area too and even if it seems closely inspired doesn't equal as fact even if the Japanese names are 100% the same things. U,h the artwork can always be a coincidence for the spirit and using the old artwork would clash with the other power-up forms of Mario anyways and Metal mario the "character" is the closest Metal mario artwork that is modern to this day, besides none of the Mario power-ups are using old artwork and even Fox Luigi is over Raccoon Mario. The spirits aren't even consistent either, for some reason Toad can be enhanced to become Captain Toad even though there is more sources that they are different characters and easily can be mistaken to each other because "Captain" in front of Toad and having similar voices. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:21, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

I'm saying it woulda been sort of a power up, but my main point was "alternate forms in general should be treated equally." Metal Mario from Smash 64 is intended to be SM64 Metal Mario; this is absolutely self-evident and you can't say otherwise without writing around obvious visual cues. The argument regarding artwork source doesn't work either, as those too are from all over, and if they considered them different they wouldn't use someone else's artwork, period. As for Cap, in Puzzle & Dragons, Boos could be turned into King Boos (yes, in the plural), so that doesn't amount to anything. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:50, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

But it's not used either way, so that's out of the question. Except all the other forms don't point it to also being a character, just Metal Mario having a power-up like entity. How is Metal Mario in Smash 64 the metal form from SM64 that's not even fact even for the way you make it seem, Metal Mario is silent, he doesn't reuse Mario's clips while the form does in SM64, does he reuse Mario's voice clips like the form from SM64"? no, can Kirby copy his powers?, no, can you damage this Metal Mario? yes, the SM64 form is invincible to every attack in the game. The Metal Box or something else isn't even an item in SSB if it was it would certainly be believable for me to agree with you. The spirit is just Metal Mario in general! Besides both the character and form are identical, just like confusing a Green Yoshi with Yoshi or a red Toad with a blue vest being both a character and a vest (Toads first appeared in the first Super Mario Bros., while the character debuted in Super Mario Bros. 2 himself). That was only done for gameplay purposes in Puzzles and Dragons: Super Mario Bros Edition, other than that King Boo and Petey are not actual "confirmed" species. Same for the two "Peteys" in Hoops 3-on-3. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:35, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

iirc, SM64 and Smash 64 both use the same "metal clang" noise. And this isn't like those, where there's a whole species of nearly identical individuals, this is the same concept interpreted multiple ways. As for Baby Mario, what points to that being less of a character than Metal Mario? Or Dry Bowser in Bowser's case? For that matter, in Melee, Bowser still has to fight Giga Bowser in sufficiently-difficult Adventure Mode, and barring cheats that couldn't be played as until Brawl. And given that the Bowser fought before is a recolor Bowser in the case you're playing as normal color Bowser, one could easily consider Metal Mario in those games to be a recolor-type Mario clone with a few extra difficulty modifications. Like Giga Bowser. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:52, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Can you answer this

Mario Kart 7 explicitly states that Metal Mario is Mario's rival, and I interpret the trophy "mid-level boss" as also a separate character and also happens to be recurring. Also what do you have to say about the slightly different speech difference, "Mia Mama" and "oh, papa" (opposed to the usual "mama" from the Italian boys). No other powerup form has this sort of thing. Cat Peach would say cat related things, but I don't hear her say things completely irrelevant to what form she's in unlike Metal Mario. If Fire Mario would to say something like "Go a let's!" or Pink Gold Peach would say "aidez moi" randomly wouldn't that be some sort of weird hint of a different character? Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 21:34, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

To add to the Cat Peach thing, the unique cat quotes are already something that the characters do in 3D World when they get their cat forms, so it's not something unique to Mario Kart that can be used to handwave Metal Mario's quotes. Speaking of unique quotes, Metal Mario specifically calls himself "Metal Mario" in MK8 matching Pink Gold Peach, which Cat Peach and Tanooki Mario don't. Admittedly Deluxe muddies the waters a little bit since Gold Mario also calls himself "Gold Mario", though it could also be argued that since Gold Mario is already closer to a variant of Metal Mario than Mario in that game, it actually is Metal Mario somehow using the gold form and not Mario himself. Honestly I was leaning toward merging but now I'm against it unless these questions can be answered. At the very least it seems that right now the Mario Kart series portrays him as some sort of warped version of Mario, which wouldn't make sense if it was just Mario wearing the Metal Cap. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 22:08, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Again, I ask: Why should Dry Bowser and Baby Mario be treated any different? Dry Bowser can apparently simultaneously be Bowser in another form and merely a family friend, yet not get an article split. Why should this be any different? Basically, to do things consistently, we either split those or merge these. Since I prefer to look at this loosely constructed franchise from an abstract, concept-oriented perspective, it's a no-brainer which solution I prefer. Attempting to make distinctions based off occasional alternative roles is just better than putting outright headcanon on here in my opinion. And, once again, Nintendo explicitly considers these the same, even if they tried (and failed) an edginess upgrade in MK7 (I'm also curious if the description part of that was a localization flavorization....). Another thing on Smash! Bowser's bluish recolor is officially considered to be the same entity as Bowser's Brother, so he can be both "an alternate texture of the same character" and "a different character" concurrently as well. This additionally could lead to a hypothetical situation where, say, Cosmic Mario (so far only given a "rival" role) could appear as a recolor, and odds are, they'd consider that to be Cozzy as well. Metal Mario basically exists in a state where he's both an offshoot and a variant at once, but is still explicitly the same entity as each other. Since there's no canon, there need be no consistency, but that doesn't give us the authority to defy Nintendo's only explicit take on the matter to make things allegedly "easier to sort." Furthermore, Mario Hoops had multiple Petey Piranhas at once while Puzzle & Dragons allowed normal Boos to turn into King Boo, and while those were made out-of-house, HAL Laboratory isn't exactly Nintendo itself, but merely a subsidiary. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:42, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Where exactly does Mario Kart 7 call Metal Mario a "rival"? Judging from the list of Metal Mario profiles and statistics, it was apparently only stated on the North American website, but not the European equivalent. The Japanese version is much closer to the latter where it does not mention any particular relation to Mario: 「鋼鉄の見た目の通り重量級。トップスピードには自信があります。」 (The steel appearance suggests a heavyweight. Shows confidence in top speed.) "Metal Mario is Mario's rival" may be on the same level as "Princess Daisy is Peach's cousin". LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:17, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

So you keep saying "Nintendo explicitly considers them the same", but is that actually something they've ever come out and said or is that just you coming to your own conclusions? The only bios I can find are MK7, MK8, and Melee, where MK7 says he's a unique character, Melee mentions both the form and the character but leaves it ambiguous, and MK8 is just useless. You also haven't really acknowledged how the "warped Mario" portrayal in Mario Kart factors into this and just brushed it off as irrelevant. As far as Dry Bowser/Baby Mario goes, in my opinion those are a different type of form than power-ups. Dry Bowser has always been a character since his debut and not Bowser just making use of some sort of skeleton power-up that other characters have access to or something. Not to mention splitting him would be a mess since there's really no way to consistently tell if it's skeleton Bowser or Bowser's skeletal family friend. If he never shares screentime with Bowser himself, does that make him Bowser? Or do we have to explicitly see Bowser turn into Dry Bowser? And then there's Mario Kart Wii to further complicate things, where we obviously don't see Bowser turn into Dry Bowser and they can both potentially appear at the same time, yet all of Dry Bowser's bios for that game confirm that he's Bowser's skeleton here. Splitting him would just be more trouble than it's worth and only end up confusing readers.
Moving on to Baby Mario, same thing applies where he's always been a unique character and not just a power-up form. And again, what makes him Mario as a baby or Baby Mario? Saying he's only Mario as a baby when he doesn't appear with adult Mario doesn't work because of Partners in Time. Even if you add that as an exception, there's still Double Dash, MK8, Mario Superstar Baseball which acknowledge the weirdness of them appearing at the same time, Mario Kart Wii and Superstar Baseball which reference Baby Mario's appearance in the Yoshi's Island series implying that they're the same character, Melee which explicitly says Baby Mario in the sports games is the same as the one in the Yoshi games, and while not very solid evidence but still worth bringing up, Brawl and Smash 4 which talk exclusively about his Yoshi's Island appearances while using his current appearance with the overalls on the trophy. Not only is splitting them even messier than Dry Bowser, but... Nintendo doesn't even seem to think there's two Baby Marios. Heck, we've all seen Partners in Time and the weirdness with adult Mario and Bowser appearing in Yoshi's New Island, how do we know the babies aren't just straight-up time traveling rather than unique entities of their own?
Meanwhile, we have Metal Mario, the first appearance of a character in powered-up form portrayed as a unique entity, predating the further usage of this concept by 15 years. Unlike those later power-up characters in sports games, Metal Mario has unique aspects to him that don't really make sense at all if he was just metal Mario as of his appearance in MK7, and the concept even spun off into everyone's favorite character Pink Gold Peach. Is splitting them a complicated mess? Not really, the only bios we have explicitly say he's different or leave it ambiguous. If anything Puzzle & Dragons is the complication here, but given the nonexistence of any spinoff characters in that game, all the powered-up Marios (and Luigis, who also gets a metal form in that game) that are already there, and the lack of the lack of irises which Metal Mario as a character has almost always had, I think it's clear that it's powered-up Mario here. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:28, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Melee talking about both as one entity is every bit ass valid as the Baby Mario trophies you mentioned. I fail to see how the examples here are any different. I could just as easily ask why we only consider Metal Mario the "form" if Mario is shown turning into him. Much like you said with Dry Bowser, there are so many appearances in spinoffs that it's really wishy-washy and the splittings that the article have gone with are arbitrary. Why is the "Mario Golf" Metal Mario separate from Mario when the game's sequel had both Bowser Jr. and Shadow Mario as separate entities? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:27, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

I personally read Melee's trophy as being ambiguous about whether they're supposed to be the same entity or just two iterations of the same concept, but admittedly that's up to interpretation (though for what it's worth, the trophy only names "Metal Mario" specifically when talking about Smash). For comparison, Metal Mario's trophy just happens to talk about both versions in the same paragraph, while Baby Mario's trophy specifically states "Since then, Baby Mario's been spotted on golf courses and tennis courts". Your point about how we consider Metal Mario the form vs. the character in the first place is valid, but since it's specifically a power-up I don't think it's that much of a stretch to only consider it a form when it's specifically shown being used as one. As for Shadow Mario, I'll admit I don't really have an answer for that, though Shadow Mario was only in one game while Metal Mario's had a more extensive spinoff history. I personally don't think the Metal Mario splits are arbitrary, but even if they were, it's not like the case of Dry Bowser and Baby Mario where there's so many bios muddying the waters that there's no sensible way to split them out, the most logical being a very confusing "split if game/bio confirms it's this version". Also, fun fact I noticed while looking information up for this comment: Metal Mario, despite not appearing in the game, is given a mention on the score card in the Game Boy Color Mario Golf, alongside a few other golfers from other games in the series (and Link), which strikes me as odd if he wasn't a unique entity. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:29, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Scorecard's probably just filling itself out with characters from the other version. The scorecards shouldn't be taken seriously anyways, when in most of them (particularly TT), they were filled with characters and generic species (and sometimes obstacles) that have no anatomical way to feasibly play golf. I'd consider MM's Melee trophy flip/flopping on which version it's talking about with no real line between just as big an indicator as Baby Mario's description. As for MM's spinoff history, I feel it's just as ambiguous per instance as Shadow Mario is in that one and Dry Bowser's snarl of bios. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:41, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

LinkTheLefty, only the Prima guides for Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Mario Kart Wii state that Daisy is Peach's cousin and they make these kind of mistakes, Nintendo including the official sites never said any of that kind of info as far as I know. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:49, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

Nintendo of America's official site for Mario Kart Wii listed Nimbus Land as Birdo's home, even though she is removed once Valentina is (and Nintendo allegedly not being allowed to use SMRPG things) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:57, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

I don't think it should be lost on anyone here calling Metal Mario a rival was a one-time, one-region instance that just so happened to occur after the wiki split the article between form and character. This isn't even language-specific since Nintendo of Europe was, at least at the time, making some of their own English translations independent of Nintendo of America that were generally closer to Nintendo of Japan (e.g. Bowser's Minions), and indeed, the version without the mention of a rivalry is applicable to most of the world. In a way, it's almost like how the Parabuzzy situation was literally the English localization versus the rest of the world, except in this case there already exists an alternate translation that is both closer to the Japanese text and still available (note the North American Mario Kart 7 website was revamped and the older version with the rivalry statement is only partially viewable with an archive). I'll posit further that the above proposal, especially with the Metal Mario article in its state at the time, would most certainly not have passed today - the only examples of Metal Mario apparently as a character were two Super Smash Bros. series appearances, of which was a significant factor in the split but overall coverage later started to be limited, Mario Golf for N64, which is a spinoff where anything goes as playable, and Dr. Mario 64, which is simply mistaken since the initial split was not aware that Metal Mario appeared as a form of Dr. Mario within the context of the game's story (and claiming it's both as is currently the case is pushing once and only once). Lastly (and this is just my personal experience), I've always found the negativity against certain oddities within older Prima Games guides to be overblown when there are many times I find them to be more useful than a Nintendo Power equivalent. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:11, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

Merge the Metals

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

keep split 10-2-7-12
This split is based on little more than speculation. The Melee trophy describes both variably, the Ultimate spirit uses the "character" artwork in the context of the form, and even the original Meta Crystal had enough visual cues to Hazy Maze Cave to be just coming short of hitting you over the head with "this is that cool Metal Mario from SM64." The source for him being Mario's "rival" is from a since-replaced bio on one region's site, and as such is a supplemental assumption comparable to PRIMA claiming Daisy is Peach's cousin. Additionally, in Dr Mario 64, Mario turns into Metal Mario in Wario's story, but the two can separately battle in a different mode (and I don't see a "Vampire Wario (character)" article to balance that). On that note, Tanooki Mario and Gold Mario have since become recurring characters separately playable from normal Mario, yet they don't get a split. Additionally, Tanooki Mario also gets soundbytes separate from normal Mario, so Metal Mario's occasional distorted sentence-mixing is also not that special (particularly given some games have him mute or simply making "clang" noises). Another note is Dry Bowser; he can be both Bowser himself with the skin melted off and simply "a family friend," yet only gets one article, and very distinctly altered soundbytes, like MK7-onward Metal Mario.

What I'm ultimately saying is it doesn't matter if he's depicted as a different form of the same character or a separate entity: He's still Metal Mario. Heck, the first game to have him as a separate entity also had separate player characters via the fightable recolors (which he also is with added physics and soundbyte differences...like in SM64). I'll include an option to include Metal Luigi from Melee too, since that's as relevant as Metal Wario in SM64DS.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: June 21, 2020, 11:59 PM (GMT)

Merge the Metal Marios and Metal Luigi

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head... (per proposal, primary option)
2. Duckfan77 (talk) Per proposal.
3. Metalex123 (talk) Per proposal. If we were to let these stay unmerged, then we should also get articles for "Cat Peach (character)", "Tanooki Mario (character)", "Fire Mario (character)", "Ice Mario (character)", "Gold Mario (character)", etc, and that's not counting the mess of "characters" from Mario Kart Tour... Also even recent games don't consider these separate characters, so it doesn't make sense to keep them separate. I hope the merge happens...
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per second option, but additionally, Metal Luigi really has absolutely no business being a separate article. This isn't only due to merging Metal Wario, but also because of wiki measures to limit Super Smash Bros.-specific coverage. Keep in mind that Giant Donkey Kong is currently merged with Donkey Kong, and that has better reasons to be separate because Donkey Kong has an existing giant form within the Mario franchise. If that's the case, then there's no reason why a Smash-only derivative of Metal Mario should still have its own article. Also, Metal Luigi is basically just Luigi with Metal Box activated, sans time limit. If that makes Metal Luigi his own character, then so are the one-on-one "Mega" racers in Mario Kart Tour, and I don't think we want to go there.
5. Glowsquid (talk) - I think going w/ concept over role as mentioned in the comments is the way to go. I really don't see a voice clip filter as a compelling evidence against either.
6. SmokedChili (talk) Per full merge. The only solid evidence we have for anything regarding this proposal is the SSBM trophy which says nothing about forms and characters, there's only text about Mario in metal and listed appearances and that's that. The MK7 bio also means nothing because the word "rival" can be applied to any character in any possible context, like Daisy may "outshine her rivals" in Mario Party 9 (which includes generic baddies like Koopa Troopa) or the Koopalings in the Jp version of their reveal trailer for Mario Kart 8 being called Mario and friends' rivals by the late Iwata (which in the context of all playables revealed prior to that includes the baby characters).
7. Mysterii (talk) Per full merge. Metal Mario only exists to act as a powered up version of Mario, same with Metal Luigi, Metal Wario, Metal Bowser, and Giant DK.
8. PhGuy12 (talk) As for the voice, this seems more like a modernization of Metal Mario than an evidence that he is his own character. Mario had his voice changed in other forms before (Mini in NSMB, Mega in Mario Kart Wii and 3D World, Small in 3D Land / World). Peachette's voice is identical to Peach's in NSMBU Deluxe, but it is more distinct in Mario Kart Tour. About the Metal form being temporary, the same can be said about the Ice form from Super Mario Galaxy, which is also a playable character in MKT. And unlike SMG's Ice form, Ice Mario as a character is not immune to lava and fireballs, which invalidates the argument about Metal Mario as a character not being invincible.
9. Bazooka Mario (talk) As Dry Bowser doesn't have his own character page, I think it'll be better if our wiki had a page on Metal Mario that deals with both the character and the form, basically a Metal Mario page for everything Metal Mario, similar to how we have all the bananas in one spot rather than split on the peel, the collectible, the one with a face, a one without a face, etc. It makes navigation easier and frees up having the distinguish between a form and a character, especially when they overlap or are inconsistent like in Puzzle & Dragons where Metal Mario has a pupil, or Gold Mario, a power, is a palette swap of Metal Mario in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Additionally, while you bring up Mario Kart GP where there's an item that turns character into metal forms, I don't see how this is a problem for the hypothetical article; you can say Metal Mario appears as a separate character while characters (including Metal Mario) can use a metal item. This support, however, is on condition we will apply this logic on other articles like Boom Boom and perhaps invite more questions onto the split between Toad/Yoshi/Kamek and the species they represent. Otherwise, Metal Mario should be split, especially when there's a game that has a metal form available AND Metal Mario is playable. The merge here won't suddenly erase Metal Mario as a character, it just makes it more of a convenient article while we can talk about how there's a Metal Mario character.
10. DarkNight (talk) Per Preposal.

Merge the Metal Marios but not Metal Luigi

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) ...I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head! (per proposal, secondary option)
2. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per above discussion, but most specifically what I found regarding Metal Mario's status as a "rival" in Mario Kart 7. Simply put, it is not present in the Japanese or European websites, and the North American website does not have the claim that was apparently invented in an earlier version which is no longer fully available, so the supposed statement appears to be long-forgotten by now (and, by the way, just so happened to occur after the wiki made the character split, something that I don't believe is a total coincidence). I think that is very significant because that one line held me back until I looked deeper into it - without a surviving description or storyline depicting Metal Mario as a character separate from Mario and the other playable power-ups, there is no solid justification for keeping it split from the form anymore (the only thing left is the observation about the alternate voice clips, but I have a feeling that point isn't going to age particularly well). Additionally, I'll say it again - if the above proposal was made today with the Metal Mario article still in its state at the time, it would most certainly not have passed.

Merge Metal Luigi to Metal Mario (character) and leave Metal Mario (form) alone

1. Waluigi Time (talk) My second option. Metal Mario at least has a decent amount of appearances, but Metal Luigi is a one-time opponent that's just an ordinary fighter with a status effect.
2. KingGeoshiKoopshi64 (talk) My second choice. Metal Luigi has only appeared once as the reasons stated by Waluigi Time.
3. TheFlameChomp (talk) I'm willing to support this as my second option, per Waluigi Time.
4. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Second choice, per Waluigi Time.
5. Alex95 (talk) - Second choice, I'm fine with this one. Same logic as Fire Luigi being on the same page as Fire Mario.
6. Tails777 (talk) I'd go with this as a secondary. And again, Per Waluigi Time.
7. DarkNight (talk) Per Waluigi Time (Second Option).

Oppose

1. Waluigi Time (talk) I feel the Mario Kart series is key here. Yes, other powered-up characters get unique voice clips, but when they do they either make sense for what form is being used (Cat Peach) or aren't out of character at all (Tanooki Mario). Metal Mario's bizarre quote warping doesn't fall under either of these categories, and I feel this point has been insufficiently addressed or handwaved. I will agree that I don't feel the Dr. Mario 64 appearance has a place here, though. EDIT: Additionally, Metal Mario predates the other powered-up characters by quite a while. Since this was a relatively weird thing at the time, it makes me think that he was always intended to be a character. While there were other similar oddities at the time like the first appearance of Baby Mario alongside adult Mario and an appearance of Shadow Mario alongside Bowser Jr., Metal Mario is specifically powered-up rather than a variation. Even nowadays being able to play as a powered-up version of a character isn't that common, being downright nonexistent outside of Mario Kart 8/Tour (exception being Gold Mario in Mario Golf: World Tour, however his animations confirm that it's just Mario). EDIT 2: Additionally as gamermakerguy pointed out in the comments, in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX, a game which has plenty of so-called "palette swap" characters, Metal Mario appears as a unique playable character rather than being considered a palette swap of Mario, unlike Fire Mario and Tanooki Mario who are Mario palette swaps in that game. Interestingly, Dry Bowser on the other hand is considered a palette swap of Bowser in that game. There's also the fact that the Metal form actually does appear in that game, obtained by the Heavy Mushroom.
2. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
3. Alex95 (talk) - Per my reasons, I'm standing by them.
4. TheDarkStar (talk) - per all
5. KingGeoshiKoopshi64 (talk) - Per all reasons I've stated in all of my messages and per Waluigi Time.
6. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
7. Chester Alan Arthur (talk) Per all.
8. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.
9. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
10. Tails777 (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
11. Octoling Rendezvous (talk) Per all.
12. Power Flotzo (talk) Per all.

Comments

@Waluigi Time Problem is, s'far as I can tell, that's unique to MK7-onward. Smash games always had him totally mute, like the original form. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:55, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

The trait being added later doesn't make it any less important, especially when this is how Nintendo most recently portrayed him. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:08, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Could say the same about voice acting in general. Additionally, there's the Dry Bowser comparison I'm going to add now; his clips are distorted too, and varies between explicitly the same and explicitly different from Mario. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:10, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

I've already discussed why I don't think Metal Mario and Dry Bowser (or Baby Mario for that matter) are easily comparable and I'm sticking with it, however I will address the voice clips since it's a new point. The mere fact that Metal Mario has a filter on his voice clips alone would be an incredibly flimsy reason to justify a split. I'm primarily concerned with the dialogue itself, which is not only new but out of character for Mario. Therefore, I don't think Dry Bowser similarly having distorted clips is relevant here. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:17, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

I don't think "saying words in a different order" counts as really "out of character." It's still Italian statements of surprise. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:20, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

It's not just that he's saying them in a different order though, it's obvious that they're trying to portray Metal Mario as some sort of reverse/doppelganger Mario. It's not something Mario's ever done before and it's not something that makes sense for Mario to be doing just because he's in the metal form. If it he was just saying "clang" or something like that I'd be more inclined to say it's something done only as a bit of form-specific flair like the unique cat vocalizations are. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:25, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Or the devs are having fun. Who knows, he might have been Cosmic Mario in early builds and replaced with Metal Mario, and they decided to keep the original voiceclips, distorted differently, for variety's sake? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:31, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Except there's absolutely nothing to suggest Cosmic Mario was ever intended to be in the game. At this point you're just going around what's fairly obvious in favor of pure speculation that would support your argument. The devs deciding to portray Metal Mario as a Mario doppelganger makes a lot more sense than "they messed with his dialogue because they were bored". -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:42, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

There's less than nothing indicating the entity in Smash and Golf was ever indicated to be separate the form, given there's actual evidence of them being the same. Not just some "funny quotes, therefore different." Also on that subject, SSBU uses "character" Metal Mario's art in the contexts of Mario's forms, and Nintendo didn't have a problem with that, which is an implicit seal of approval on these being the same thing. Also, in regards o MK7, Metal Mario was the only alteration character, and his weird voice clips relative to those of later additions reflect that. MK8 was made once the originality/variety slump kicked in (think NSMB series's infamy), and Metal Mario's were simply ported. Either way, this doesn't address it still being "Metal Mario" in general, and an evolution of a role doesn't make it a separate thing from the basis. Which is the sole purpose of separating articles. If this were a separate concept derived from the Metal Mario concept, ie "Super Metal Mario," then there'd be grounds to split it, but if they can't be buggered to give it a new name in any language, it's pretty clear they still think of it as the same thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:53, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Actually, Metal Mario's quotes in MK8 are new, that's where the weird backwards quotes come from in the first place. Metal Mario's MK7 quotes are pretty standard actually, though they do have the vocal filter. It's obvious that the character emerged from the form, nobody's arguing against that, but I don't like the idea of merging a unique entity with a character putting on a special hat. The only "actual evidence" that exists that they're intended to be the same is the Melee trophy, which as far as I care is somewhat ambiguous and never outright states it. As for SSBU, after going through the spirit list I originally had a giant paragraph written out but I'll spare you the details. My conclusion is that spirit placement and the "form" lists aren't necessarily cut-and-dry, Metal Mario is included with Mario's forms, however Peach's forms include Baby Peach and her wedding outfit, and Bowser also has somewhat of a form list consisting solely of his wedding outfit while Dry Bowser is instead grouped with enemies and bosses from the 2D platformers. I will point out that for Metal Mario, even if it was intended to represent the power-up, the only other art options they had were SM64 (and the Mario spirits seem to avoid N64-era art entirely) or Puzzle and Dragons which has the orbs in it which would stand out a lot more than the tires, not to mention that the Metal Mario form usually seems to show him with irises now, making Metal Mario the character actually closer in appearance to the form in 64. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:40, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

From what I can tell, the iris thing only applies to P&D itself (which also had normal Boos able to become multiple King Boos at once) and a promotional keychain that simply used recolored generic Mario art. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:56, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

(edit conflict) Yes but what if Pink Gold Peach said well-known Peach catchphrases but in a different order? What if Dry Bowser went "TIME SHOWWWW" or some hypothetical Rusty Copper Luigi went "PAPA PIOOOO"? Don't you think these are in the minimum suggestive they're different characters? Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 15:26, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Not even remotely. Talking backwards does not a separate character make. Oh no, I must be Turquoise Sapphire Professor von Schmeltwick now. And again, Dry Bowser is sometimes a separate character (family friend), yet again gets a shared page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:31, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

The first part is not a really good analogy,but for the latter on Dry Bowser I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps it's better if there's just a catch-all Metal Mario page rather than two split pages but we have to call into question with other pages that have questionable character splitting imo. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 15:55, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

That's exactly what I want. I prefer to split via concept, not relative role. And yes. In fact, Boom Boom's my next target. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:06, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: Speaking for myself, the reason I haven't bothered to address the voiceover discrepancy in the above discussion is because, to me, it's complete circumstantial speculation. I see it as vocal evolution, and not a quantifiable one that necessarily makes it out of character at all. Call it handwaving if you want, but it's not a part of the conversation that interests me personally. The part that I am interested in, however, is that the whole "rivalry" is predecated on what can be considered either a mistranslation at best or a fan-nod at worst (albeit well-intentioned), which isn't even available anymore. Regardless, the voice argument isn't something I feel can engage in a way that doesn't seem speculative on all angles.

@Doc: I think we really need a "Merge Metal Luigi but not the Metal Marios" option for the opposition. I missed when it was brought up in the above discussion but the fact that it's a separate article is a little ridiculous considering Giant Donkey Kong has a much better reason to be its own article given it has a precedent in the franchise. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:02, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Sure, the altered voice clips alone aren't enough of a reason to keep them separated. And Smash Bros. is a shaky case where creative liberties fly. But even without those, there are enough on Metal Mario as a character to keep him separate (going to sound like a broken record here).

1. First of all, Metal Mario as a character is playable within the Mario franchise, in Mario Kart, Mario Golf, and Mario Tennis. He is specifically referred to as "Metal Mario" instead of just "Mario", further separating the two.
2. His character abilities in those specific games are different from Mario's. He has statistics that Metal Mario as a form does not portray.
3. He has no limits. All of Mario's forms have some kind of limitation, be it a time limit or getting hit. Metal Mario as a character does not have this, as opposed to his form, which has a time limit.

Some counterpoints to my own.

1. Baby Mario and Tanooki Mario are also classified as separate characters in various games, and yet they are still just an alternate form of Mario, like the Metal Mario form.
2. Statistics vary from game to game. Mario himself has gone through adjustments, however little they may be, with each game.
3. Properties vary from game to game. Using the Fire Flower as an example, Mario loses it in Super Mario Bros. when he gets hit, but in Super Mario Galaxy, the Fire Mario form is on a time limit. Tanooki Mario can get hit in Mario Kart and still keep his form, as another example.

The main thing I'm worried about is the varied information on the article, as it will go back and forth on covering the power-up and character with various properties that it just seems best to me to keep things as they are. 13:37, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

Thing is, though, all merging is is acknowledging it as officially one subject. Having them separate is treating them as two separate subjects, like they really aren't. The Wiggler article goes back and forth between covering a species of small caterpillars and large individual ones as characters, and it works perfectly fine. Similar situation with Big Boo. I feel this can work just as fluidly, and will if it passes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:53, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

@Opposition Ask yourself this: Do you honestly think the localizers of Mario Golf 64 and the makers of Mario Kart 7 thought to themselves "Hey, let's use that Mario from Super Smash Bros.!" when implementing Metal Mario? Because I can assure you they didn't; they wanted Metal Mario from Super Mario 64. By virtue of splitting it that way, we are saying that they directly and deliberately added a Smash character who only happens to be based off an iconic form from a mainline Mario game to their game, and not just, you know, deliberately added a recurrence of that iconic form as a call-back. Because when you split things along lines like this, you are saying that the conceptual evolution went that way. That is inherently what splitting and merging are all about. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:49, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

I wouldn't say it's completely out of the question, Nintendo's made some strange pulls sometimes, and both games were released the same year. Alternatively, it's possible that they could've coincidentally developed a Metal Mario character separately since the groundwork was already there. For MK7, separate powered-up characters in sports games didn't exist at all at that point. (I would make a point about "why Metal Mario of all power-ups if they wanted just a Mario variant", but this was also the game that didn't include Waluigi because he was only a "cult favorite" in favor of characters like Metal Mario, Honey Queen, and generic enemies, so MK7's roster making any logical sense is a lost cause) -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:18, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

If they did develop the "characters" separately, then if split at all, the "character" page should additionally be split between "Super Smash Bros. series character" and "Mario franchise character," since again, by virtue of having them on the same page, you are illustrating a conceptual path. That's what a wiki page's history section is inherently. The only kinda-sorta exceptions to this really are the "big" enemies, since splitting off different instances of "Goomba only larger" is a rabbit hole we should stay well away from. And even following the logic of keeping those merged, this is still "an instance of Mario, only metal." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:35, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

Even if they did develop them separately though (which we have no evidence to suggest they actually were) there's nothing different about Metal Mario in Smash at all to warrant splitting him out of this page. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:29, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

Metal Mario in Smash never had the warbly voice either? Being "a stubborn midlevel boss?" As for all other similarities (differences in weight, etc), those are shared with the form. If all arguments for keeping the "Smash" entity and the western "Mario Golf" addition (which furthermore, I doubt MK7's devs were referencing an AMERICAN addition) merged also work for re-merging the individual instance and form of typical Mario, then it shows there's no point leaving them split. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:42, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

As I've seen you making a point about there being multiple Mario's in the original Smash 64. The game had no Metal Box until Melee and there is only one Metal Mario you fight in the game as well and not even a team group of Metal Mario's appear to add it up, not even other characters became metal formed either without the item. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 17:37, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

Being a boss is just his role in the game, not a difference in the character that would make a split logical. Frankly I'm a bit confused where this point is going, originally you were talking about Super Smash Bros. and Mario Golf having different Metal Marios, but now you're talking about Super Smash Bros. and Mario Golf having the same Metal Mario while being separate from the Metal Mario in Mario Kart 7 onward, yet simultaneously arguing there is no Metal Mario character at all? Either way, I think we've fallen a bit off track here, there's nothing that would suggest that the Metal Mario appearing in Smash, Mario Golf, and the modern spinoffs is actually three separately developed yet coincidentally identical characters, only pure speculation of "they probably aren't meant to be the same character because I don't think so". And frankly, Metal Mario's clanging noises switching to warbly voice clips after a 12-year absence really means nothing when you consider how many other changes and updated designs occurred between the N64 and 3DS eras. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:43, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

I also want to bring up that Metal Mario's emblem including his variants being Gold Mario and Ice Mario have their emblems slightly differing from "regular" Mario's emblem including their "M" having a unique outline while "regular Mario's" doesn't unlike the other "regular" Mario variants such as Tanooki Mario and Builder Mario just being the same emblem "regular" Mario emblem but sometimes with small edits and recolors and lacking the unique outline that Metal Mario and his variants have. Metal Mario and his variants are the only "different" Mario clone to have a completely different version from regular Mario's more. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 19:53, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

Regarding the Smash thing: The lack of metal box doesn't matter in the slightest. There being multiple Marios means that he too is an additional Mario, just one with a pre-existing hook. As for "they probably aren't meant to be the same character because I don't think so," that is a pure strawmanning of what I am saying and I am appalled. Japanese developers aren't going to be referencing a Western exclusive Golf "character" from over a decade prior for their kart game. And while they were assisted by the American Retro Studios, a random golf character from 14 or so years before is even stupider a roster choice than the bee. Additionally, this is quite important, if you're saying this entity from Smash, Golf, and Kart is definitely the same despite the development history not making sense, then adding the form to that is the only way for said development history to make sense. This isn't a separate subject. It's the same subject with a different role. And no, a powerup form is no different from any other sort of transformation that can be done and undone. Saying "this comparison doesn't count because the character doesn't eat a fungus or put on a funny hat" makes no sense and comes off as dodging the question. One could consider lava Dry Bowser's powerup (and incidentally, there actually is a powerup granting Dry Bonehead's properties, but that's neither here nor there.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:35, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

It's still just speculation and personal opinion though. Maybe the development history here doesn't make sense or seem logical to you, but without any word from the developers or witnessing the development process first hand, by no means does that mean it couldn't or didn't happen that way. I'd be very surprised if the Japanese developers were completely unaware of Metal Mario's presence in Mario Golf that entire time anyway. From what I can tell the entire basis of this particular argument seems to boil down to they can't be the same character because you personally feel the development history is too farfetched. And yes, you could say that Dry Bowser is a power-up form that Bowser obtains through getting dunked in lava, but the Mario franchise has pretty clearly defined rules for what a power-up is and stretching that definition past those rules probably isn't going to convince many people. You could just as easily argue that Mr. L is a power-up of Luigi and brainwashing is the "item". -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:55, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

How is saying two things with the same name and the same design and the same abilities are the same speculation but saying they're different (as we currently do) not speculation? :\

My entire point this whole time has been to erase the speculation (and, dare I say, straight-up fancrufting) this split is based upon at its core. My counterpoint here is that the devs of each further game on this page did not look to the previous instance to get inspiration, as they would with an actual character with some level of personality (and no, "talks funny" isn't a personality), but rather took the entity from SM64 and put a mutually unique spin on it each time, as is the norm when trying to bring something back after a while. That's the reason for the noise and eye differences. As for the powerups, why should a transformation where the cause is a temporary funny hat effect be treated differently in regards to character relationship than a temporary effect from lava, a bib, or various actual powerups? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:04, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

Yes but that still doesn't the change the fact that Metal Mario in Smash 64 is permanent (just like in modern games he appears in) and the only individual Metal Mario no matter what. The opposite happened when Fake Crash a doppelganger to Crash got to appear in Crash Bash in Japan only while he doesn't in the western releases so that isn't Metal Mario's regional problem alone, Also Mario's Golf's Japan's release files has a dummy file and seeing how Mario Golf released later in North America and Europe with some improves differences and consistencies after Japan which theirs seem to have come sooner. It's no surprise that the other releases got more polishing and work. It's kind of uncommon for different regional games having some different content and polishing those being a great example for Partners In Time but Japan and Europe was more definitive and polished content compared to North American release when compared. So it doesn't matter if Japan didn't use Metal Mario, even he is quite popular in that country, no joke. https://tcrf.net/Mario_Golf_(Nintendo_64) Also Dry Bowser is obviously not a power-up form. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 21:08, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

There seems to be a bit of confusion here, I'm only referring to the specific idea that there being three developmentally separate Metal Mario characters as speculation, not the "form = character" argument as a whole. And even if they are, if developers coincidentally make the same concept multiple times I'd rather keep them in the same place, i.e. the big enemies. For the transformations, again there's a pretty clear definition of what counts as a power-up in the Mario franchise. I think I've made it pretty clear why I consider Metal Mario a unique character but not Tanooki Mario/Cat Peach/Gold Mario. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 21:18, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

And that's a wholly arbitrary distinction you're making. I'd also like to point out that this page has a texture from SSBB, and in the context of that game, it's "totally random character has a permanent Metal Box" a la Melee's Classic mode. So if this "character" page can cover "Metal [the entire game's playable cast]," I fail to see why this can't be treated as equal to the SM64 form. Also, as for P&D, the fact that normal generic Boos can somehow evolve into an established standalone character should not be discounted. The catalyst for a transformation doesn't matter in the "treating a standalone instance as the same as the derived form" debate, particularly as the only games to truly have both at once were Melee and Brawl, which again had it on both the form and "character" (ie no-time-limit version of the same status effect) for the whole playable cast. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:51, June 8, 2020 (EDT)

What's so arbitrary about it? The fact is that the Mario franchise has a pretty clear cut definition of what power-ups and the transformations that go with those power-ups are. I'm not making the distinction, it's a distinction that Nintendo made themselves through gameplay. You can bend and stretch that definition all you want for personal uses, but I doubt that it's an argument that's going to get far here. As for the Brawl image, you're using that out of context. Notice how the rest of the page doesn't actually mention Brawl at all, it was clearly put there by accident by a confused user. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:46, June 9, 2020 (EDT)

It's arbitrary because it's a distinction that does not affect how spinoff rosters work; they include whatever the heck they want. As for the image, from what I can ttell it was added by Baby Luigi. What it is is both the pre-battle image for classic mode (which is a permanent Metal Cap, ie what Metal Mario is from Melee onwards, making this the same in that respect) and the "Special Brawl" visual (which amounts to the same thing). The problem with this is it makes it quantifiable for both at the same time, and if Metal Luigi is merged here, that's doubly so, since all the Metal opponents work the same regardless of character: a permanent Metal Box to make a midlevel boss. This is why all three should be merged outright, because the line itself is just to hazy and fancrufty to work. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:57, June 9, 2020 (EDT)

Even if it was done by Baby Luigi there is such thing as accidents or mistakes which CAN happen. Though since that image represents the stuff you said from Brawl that should be moved to the form's article. But I won't be fixing that until this is settled for now so I don't do it for nothing whoever agrees with one of the options the most. Dr. Mario 64 is the only game to be true as a form of (Dr.) Mario but the other games Metal Mario himself appears in doesn't show any other evidence to be the case including all of the evidence Waluigi Time says, unlike all of the other games where he is shown as his own character and never seen to go back to another regular Mario unlike Gold Mario from Mario Golf: World Tour (the only game where he is separate while other games he is Metal Mario's alternate or variant). But in the roster of Dr. Mario 64 he is his own character and even regular Dr. Mario can appear alongside him if selected and it would be quite a headache to have the form and character mentioned in both of them even if these articles do end up being merged. Besides there hasn't been shown to be TWO actual Dr. Mario's in Dr. Mario 64. That's also why I'm not keen on merging the two Metal Mario articles. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 21:38, June 9, 2020 (EDT)

It's a "headache" having them split. In Melee, Metal Mario was Mario with a permanent Metal Box. With "special rules" in later Smash games, you can have a permanent Metal Box on every character, thus making them functionally identical to Metal Mario (particularly if playing as Mario). If they are functionally identical, it makes more sense to have them on one page, correct? There was this thing I saw Walkazo say at least once, "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck." In this case, they're called by the same name, look the same (with a few minor differences inconsistent even between the individual items on each listing), and are functionally identical. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:57, June 9, 2020 (EDT)

Well it's 2x more the headache if they were merged it's less of a mess to keep them split because then it wouldn't get as confusing, but you won't seem to understand no matter how many times I tell you anyways! Except Metal Mario and Metal Luigi were the only Metal bosses you fought specifically in Adventure Mode for Melee. In the Smash 64 1P Game, when the Announcer introduces Metal Mario, his voice gains a slight change and becomes metallic and the Announcer's voice sounds noticeably deeper and the same change in voice does not occur for announcing any other character in Classic Mode and that's only to Metal mario in that game! Also I'd like to remind you that Metal Mario the "character" is not invincible unlike the form, because in the Mario Kart series and some other spin-off games he always reacts when he gets hit even if a Spiny Shell landed on him. In Mario Sports Superstars his Double Boogie-Plus animations has a shell land on his head and he reacts to it with a "oof", Metal Mario the form never reacts to stuff hitting him negatively not even in Super Mario 64 and other spin-off. If that Metal Mario really is the form of another Mario, Nintendo would never use him due to the invisible status he has compared to the playable character who is his own entity for acting different completely. Except ducks are actual species of animals and have their own pitches of sounds. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 22:30, June 9, 2020 (EDT)

Reaction differences don't matter; same could be said for Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach. Also, the announcer using a "spooky" voice in one game adds literally nothing to this debate. Additionally, no, it is not confusing to have differences on who is Metal. For the Cat Peach example, her MK8 appearance is covered on Cat Mario's page, and isn't confusing in the slightest. Again, a difference in role does not make a different subject. The fact that the "distinguishing" properties of so-called "character" can be reproduced by the player on any character in later Smash games proves that having these separate is flimsy, speculative, a violation of once and only once, and all around not helping anyone. As for invincibility, again, in Smash when using a Metal Box or a Metal Battle, they aren't invincible either, so that point cancels itself out (to say nothing of it being totally cosmetic in Super Mario Odyssey). The "oof" thing also doesn't matter, since he's mute in the Smash games (including Ultimate iirc, which post-dates that). It's one of those "inconsistencies within the respective listings" I mentioned, so using it to differentiate from use as a "form" doesn't work. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:50, June 9, 2020 (EDT)

I'm starting to think that no matter what we say to you, you're just going to keep on simply dismissing us with your own simple "beliefs" like you saying "it doesn't matter" or "it means nothing" while not even acknowledging the evidence we find, especially you seem to have a hard time accepting the different Metal Marios when he as a separate character has been in the Mario series a little longer than the power-up form and all of these other "powered-up" Marios with their own slot even before Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach (even when not counting cameos) while the separate character is more relevant even in this decade. Also Metal Mario the form is a boss in Dr. Mario 64, while the character in the roster is shown to be seperate with no other Doctor Mario shown to appear. You can't even have both Dr. Mario and Metal Mario fought in the story mode. Since Dr. Mario can only fight Vampire Wario. So are you really wanting to create even a bigger mess than what you think already is more of one to you? On top of that Metal Mario has been the second most recurring Mario clone in the spin-offs with Baby Mario being in way more. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:39, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

Since you were so kind as to edit conflict me while my internet was dying thanks to a storm, I'll share some bonus thoughts with you. In the Mario Party section of the "form" article, a quote by Bowser says "Answer quickly or your bonus points will fall like a Metal Mario off an airship!" I find the referral to a Metal Mario intriguing, though it's probably just Bowser doofing around. On another note, the form in Puzzle & Dragons is Dark/Dark attribute, which in my RPG experience would normally indicate evil (or at least sneakiness). Another point, so far the only game to depict Metal Mario as outright invincible is Super Mario 64. No later recurrence of any sort has this, only the weight. Finally, originally, the Metal Wario page was originally split too, but merged less than a month after this was split, curiously enough.

Anyways, regarding your claim of "you seem to have a hard time accepting the different Metal Marios when he as a separate character has been in the Mario series a little longer than the power-up form," Super Mario 64 (form) predates Super Smash Bros. (alleged "character"), so I have no idea where you're coming from with that. Anyways, from the top: Nintendo explicitly considers these the same. To say they are different is fanfiction. We should merge these above all else because of that. All of this "they are different because [attribute that only applies to a single game anyway]" stuff isn't helping anyone's case. If it's not consistent, it's not something that holds weight in this sort of debate. As for your claims of me dismissing evidence, I have only done so when it isn't evidence at all. The Smash announcer using a funny voice isn't a reason to have them split; there's no correlation, let alone causation. It's merely an observation. I have debunked your talking about voice and vulnerability, while you have refused to acknowledge that which I have said. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:50, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

Well I didn't know...like I'm actually sorry that actually happened to your internet and device...You're right that the form did come first and would later be inspired by this character which is the most recurring character based on a power-up out of all and he wouldn't exist without the form. The metal form is technically invisible in Mario Party 6 & 7 since the traps from the orb spaces can't hurt you when you're in that form from the Metal Shroom Orb being active but for other games mostly just cutscene purposes and simple aesthetics, minus the Smash series and Super Mario Odyssey (it was just a costume) which they obviously aren't invincible, though Smash Bros has never followed the characters' source material accurately to their represented games anyways (such as Sonic able to swim but he sorta accurately gets damaged in Ultimate and the gold form in that game not shooting Gold Fireballs and being mostly immune to attacks in defense). Metal Wario made sense to be merged with the form since it was just his own metal form in that game uniquely it was never a character with his own slot, along with Mario Party 6 & Mario Party 7 and Smash being a form much later, that was very understandable big time. Waluigi Time made some strong points of what makes him different from the other power-up clones and the voices and I stand by it. You did NOT debunk me at all, that was only in your conclusion and because you chosen not to believe it in your own way! Metal Mario is quirky and acts the opposite from regular Mario, Mario himself never says these unique lines even if they are Italian terms, while Cat Peach uses human-like cat noises like in Super Mario 3D World, Tanooki Mario's are just different voice clips like regular Mario already says while some are reused from other Mario games, Metal Mario the form NEVER says those lines and used since Mario Kart 8 which is what makes Metal Mario's case way more different than Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach, while Metal Mario used to be completely a Mario clone he got differed with some newer installments. "The same" with your sources, Waluigi Time still made his points about the artwork @ "16:40, June 7, 2020 (EDT)" about the artwork. The only "actual evidence" you do have so far is the Melee trophy, but my issue is was how vague it was and it seemed like they were just mentioning it in general and I've already stated that a lot of trophies throughout the series have some mistakes and oversights which is concerning to use as 100% evidence. I will say that about Bowser saying a Metal Mario in Mario Party 6 & Mario Party 7 I think it was possibly a joke or something? --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:03, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

I debunked your points about "the character being voiced now while the form isn't" (the character isn't voiced in his latest appearance) and "the character isn't invincible while the form is" (the form is only sometimes invincible, and both sides depend on the game's genre). Regarding Metal Mario's different lines, they honestly don't strike me as being any different from Tanooki Mario saying "Tanooki!" There's really nothing putting them as some sort of "evil opposite" or anything with them. They're just different like the other pre-Tour-laziness forms. While whatever Pink Gold Peach is supposed to be remains a mystery, Metal Mario can be whatever role he wants to be, but in the end remains a single subject: Metal Mario. Anyways, no problem with the edit conflict, I was merely jesting at the issue. You obviously couldn't know. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:32, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

"Tanooki" for Tanooki Mario was the "only" line he said that is new and he ONLY says that in the character select screen Metal mario still has his unique in races, but that's it, he is mostly just reusing other Mario Mario voice clips either way. Metal Mario has more voice differences out of all of them. That still doesn't change the fact that the character Metal Mario has never been invincible regardless. Oh, FYI, mobile games have used regular characters and they get their own costume variants even Sonic Runners does that, that's kind of common. Either way I can't convince you no matter what you think so will have to see how the signings from other users think for whatever passes. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:42, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

If artwork is such compelling evidence for Metal Mario "form and character", explain Metal Mario's MK8 Stamp then. SmokedChili (talk) 02:45, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

What does that artwork have anything to do with it...? @The Metal Mario merging supporters; Alright so I figured out more things that I never thought of until now. But Metal Mario still has OWN character slot in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX and that game uses an alternate costume system (Even Tanooki Mario and Dry Bowser are costumes to Mario and Bowser respectively but never are outside of that game and it's odd for Metal Mario to ONLY get his own slot still especially he is on model with Mario himself that could've easily been given to him, I can understand for Baby Mario and Baby Peach in that game staying separate 100% since they never been costumes and aren't on model fittingly) in the game, but first of all. There is an item that also turns the others into their own metal form with the item known as the Heavy Mushroom in the game and oddly enough Metal Mario has his own slot too despite that metal turning item also appearing alongside him separately too. It turns all characters in their metal form to knock over any rival kart they touch, bringing the rival to a stop. The effects of the Heavy Mushroom wear off after approximately 5 seconds. The thing is Metal Mario isn't normally a selectable character with his own slot (not even as selectable alt for Mario himself) in any Smash game (not counting hacking, especially for Smash 64) especially with the Metal Box or anything else related to becoming the form being an item in that game other than Smash 64. But MKAGPDX makes this special exceptional case here and quite obscurely too. Metal Mario has also NEVER been a selectable alt costume to Mario himself in all game rosters that Metal Mario even doesn't appears in his own roster or not, not even once and has always appeared in his own slot even to this day, not even in the third Mario Kart Arcade GP installment especially! When he has his own slot, he never appears alongside a metal item that turns "everyone" into metal until like I said, Mario Kart Arcade GP DX, unlike Tanooki Mario and Dry Bowser who they are selectable costumes in MKAGPDX but have been separate roster characters, once for Tanooki Mario in Mario Kart 8/Deluxe and always for Dry Bowser anyways. There is no Super Leaf item not even as a special item for Tanooki Mario in that game but something else brand new and Dry Bowser is just a bone hammer in MKAGPDX. Also only costume variants get their own "exclusive" items in that game, while other characters "including" Metal Mario get random Special items in that game that aren't from the alternate costume characters "exclusive" special item. I'm aware that Cat Peach and Pink Gold Peach first became their own character but the reason why they weren't added in MKAGPDX is because that game was in development before Mario Kart 8. Excluding Tanooki Mario, Mario's "costume" in MKAGPDX game just simply reused his artwork from 3D World and that was only because he was added at post-launch, Cat Peach was added at post-launch in Mario Kart 8 as well. This is the best and only proof I have that Metal Mario is his own character excluding Baby Mario, Metal Mario is the only and early Mario power-up "based" character (and even the first one) that has never EVER been an alt to Mario. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 18:51, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

I do think this is a very good point but thought of a counterpoint which I will address here: "All of the palette swaps have the same stats as the original character, so they probably just wanted Mario in metal form to be in a higher weight class". However, as far as I'm aware the weight classes actually go completely unnamed in GP DX. Therefore, I highly doubt anyone would've noticed if Metal Mario would've had the same stats as Mario instead of the stats used by heavier characters if he really was just Mario. I'd also like to point out that Gold Mario is used as a palette swap of Metal Mario rather than Mario, also putting him in the heaviest weight class, which is interesting because Gold Mario has never been depicted as being heavier than normal, except for when he's being used as an alt for Metal Mario. Even in Mario Golf: World Tour, the only other time Gold Mario appears as a playable character in a sports game, and notably the only time where he's shown to be just Mario powered up rather than a Metal Mario alt, Gold Mario's stats are identical to regular Mario. So then, why make Gold Mario an alt of Metal Mario instead of just Mario himself? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:04, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

While it is true that Gold Mario is not treated as heavy in most appearances, gold itself is an extremely heavy element. Basically, I believe Metal Mario is split from Mario in those games due to the weight differences, while Gold Mario is treated as an alt to Metal Mario because he's already in a monochromatic golem form, so it's an easier reskin. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:21, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

Like I said though the weight classes don't seem to be named, so putting him in a slightly lower weight class and having him as an alt of Mario wouldn't really be that strange, or even all that noticeable. The only difference being in the heaviest weight class makes is that it makes him faster and decreases his acceleration and handling. I'd be curious if anyone else who knows more about GP DX's internal mechanics could chime in with any other differences the weight classes have, if any. It seems odd that actual weight isn't mentioned at all when it's usually a displayed stat, so I wonder if there even is actually any weight in gameplay. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:35, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

It is true that all of the costumes have the same stats as they're corresponded to their base character's default. It's weird tho because you would think that Metal Mario should be a costume to Mario so easily and then the item gets chosen which would've made the item twice as redundant but the fact that Metal Mario is still separate is super odd, unlike Tanooki Mario especially having his own slot in Mario Kart 8 but is a costume with Dry Bowser in MKAGPDX. Even though Super Mario Odyssey came out several years later from MKAGPDX and is more so based on the forms model from SM64, you would think that the Metal Mario outfit would be an issue as a costume due to it being heavy but the Metal Mario costume outright ignores it and that could've also been done for Metal Mario for himself to be a costume to Mario in MKAGPDX and well that's debatable for the Gold Mario costume. Because in Super Mario Odyssey, when wearing the Metal Mario outfit, clanking can be heard as Mario walks in the outfit, and Cappy makes an audible clink if he hits a wall when thrown. So that could've been easily ignored for Metal Mario to be a skin to Mario. EDIT: I just realized, they could've easily used Robo Mario since he appeared in the first two installments since he is his truly his own character, I'm aware he was only a rival/boss in that game, after all he is a robot Mario clone created by E. Gadd. But the fact Metal Mario came in over him seems lightly suspicious. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 20:41, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

Probably just the general shying away from original/unique characters that started midway through the Wii's lifespan, to be honest. The first two MKAGP games had a lot of bizarre designs and entities, since it was in the GCN era where there was a lot of that (ie Sunshine, Jungle Beat, Wario World, etc). As for the weight, I don't really think that a lack of classes makes for a lack of weight differences in general, though it should probably be looked into. By the way @Waluigi Time, I'm curious on your thoughts about how in the later Smash games, Metal Mario's characteristics (ie the permanent Metal Box) can be duplicated perfectly for any character via special battle rules, something we have listed under the form despite being functionally identical to the "character." If they're functionally, visually, and naming-wise identical, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be on the same page? (Sorry if you already answered this, I don't recall you doing so.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:23, June 10, 2020 (EDT)

I do agree that the weight system should get looked into for MKAGPDX. You know, I'm actually really curious to see what happens if Metal Mario used the Heavy Mushroom, I'd love to see if anyone has footage of it. EDIT: Well it seems I finally found footage of Metal Mario using the Heavy Mushroom, sadly it's quality isn't good in the footage but I can see that only the kart he drives in changes into Metal while he remains the same as he already is which makes sense, but the kart at least differs. Here is footage of Toad appearing in his metal form to compare in someway. It seems the game does use a weight class as I saw Metal Mario bump Bowser Jr away from him --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:42, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

Well it's not necessarily that there aren't any weight classes since it's already been proven that they do exist, they just go unnamed in-game so a character being in a "weird" weight class wouldn't be very noticeable. As for the special battle rules, I think context is important. You're not playing as the Metal Mario character, you select Mario himself from the roster and he's permanently metalized for the duration of the battle through modification of the metal form itself, which applies to any other character. Contrast this with the original Smash, where the metal form isn't even obtainable at all. From what I can tell of Melee it is possible to fight any character in a permanent metal form, though not to play as them, with Metal Mario (and Luigi) having the distinction of being the only permanent metal opponents in Adventure Mode, for whatever that's worth. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:55, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

That's not metal at all, it just turns them monochromatic. In fact, the official sites for Arcade GP games say nothing about Heavy Mushroom turning characters metallic. SmokedChili (talk) 13:24, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

(reset indent) I mean, they're gray, shiny, and heavy, sounds like the metal form to me. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:59, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time Why should a permanently metal Mario not be considered the battleable Metal Mario when functionally, they are identical? That sounds like a violation of the "once and only once" rule to me. It's like I said before: splitting solely based on role doesn't work, particularly in such a whimsical franchise where roles are up to the developers', well, whims. Additionally, yes, Melee (and Brawl for that matter, can't remember if in 3DS or Wii U) have "Metal [random character]" as a "stubborn mid-level boss" in their respective Classic Mode...thus giving them the exact same role as Metal Mario in the first game, just replicable in VS mode from Brawl onward. Also, @LTL I'm curious if the Japanese description for the Melee Metal Mario trophy is less "ambiguous," can you share? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:37, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

Like I said, in Ultimate it's clearly just Mario. You select him from the roster and play as him. The functionality may be the same but context is key. Assuming there is a Metal Mario character, changing some settings doesn't magically turn Mario himself into an entirely separate entity. Maybe my reasoning is a bit flimsy for the rest of this, but in the cases of the boss battles, you're not just pulling Mario from the roster yourself and making him permanently metal yourself. I will admit that the appearances in Melee onward could be merged to the form article since there's other metal bosses in those games, but I'm not willing to budge on Smash 64 since the metal form didn't exist at all in that game, so it's clearly not just a case of the developers tossing in a fighter and then flipping a switch. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 17:46, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

He uses CPU Mario's AI, though, just with a texture swap and parameter differences. Like what they do with the fighting polygons, but slightly more unoriginal as it was already a thing. Also, in Ultimate, he's the boss of Bowser's classic mode in a similar manner to Giga Bowser in Melee's Adventure Mode. Meaning he has the same basic role as the previous Metal Mario, but is specifically transformed from Mario. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:00, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

Obviously he's a Mario clone, but the developers didn't just give Mario a permanent transformation that already existed in the game. Also, in Bowser's classic mode Mario isn't shown "transforming" into Metal Mario, you defeat Mario and then they just drop Metal Mario from the top of the stage and you fight him next. No special cutscene or animation like the game's actual bosses have. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:06, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

Probably because he's unique to that route so that'd be a waste of development time, but I digress. He's still an "actual boss" in that game as the final opponent of the route. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:11, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

Sakurai has said in his questionnaire that Giga Bowser is separate from "normal" Bowser. It's however shown to be contradicted in Brawl due to Bowser transforming directly in that form which is his Final Smash. But as for Giga Bowser in the Melee adventure. We do see that a Giant Bowser Trophy appears though it's quite hard to tell if it's the same trophy you would see fall from the scene after you defeated giant Bowser in that mode or a different trophy which the lighting mutates it. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 19:15, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

iirc it was the normal Bowser trophy, but this comparison proves that it doesn't matter if the entity is treated as the same or different from the base form - it's still the same entity as itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:31, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

When I say "actual boss" I just mean the characters specifically designed to be bosses that aren't just regular-ish fighter battles. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:05, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

To answer Doc's question about the Metal Mario trophy in Melee, here it is when set to Japanese: 「マリオが”緑ブロック”を使うことによって、全身鋼鉄化したもの。敵に対して強い耐性を持ち、足音が重い音になり、水の中を歩行できたりする。『スーパーマリオ64』で登場。『スマッシュブラザーズ』64版では、中ボスとして出現する。硬くて重いが攻撃はあまり激しくない。」 (When Mario used a "Green Block", his whole body underwent steelification. He has strong resistance to enemies, a heavy tread, and can walk underwater. “Super Mario 64” is the appearance. In “Smash Bros.” 64 version, he appears as a midboss. He was hard and heavy but his attacks were not very intense.) Compared to the English text, it doesn't mention the metal cap as it's not in Smash and the last sentence makes a little more sense, but the key part here is that it emphasizes its appearance Super Mario 64. This trophy's wording strongly suggests that Metal Mario was written to be the same subject in Super Mario 64 and Super Smash Bros., filling a different role. Oddly enough, the only appearance listed below the description is 「スーパーマリオ64(N64)」 (Super Mario 64 (N64)), though this is true at the time since it was the only appearance within the Mario franchise in Japanese - Mario Golf was a western addition as mentioned above, and Dr. Mario 64 wasn't released in Japan until Nintendo Puzzle Collection. Regarding the Super Smash Bros. developer's site, Sakurai was known for not being 100% serious in all of his replies - for example, once when someone expressed surprise at Samus being a woman, Sakurai joking responded that Pikachu and Kirby might be female for all we know (note that this is before certain Pokémon including Pikachu had gender differences), as if that possibility adds more female representation to the game roster. In that Giga Bowser response, Sakurai is stating that Bowser's image grew to be softer and less scary in recent games, so I get the impression that he's saying that fans can consider Bowser and Giga Bowser to be separate entities from a design perspective. About Heavy Mushroom, DX textures refer to the effect as heavy_kart_env, not metal. Additionally, Metal Mario has a slightly different texture when under a Heavy Mushroom's effect, and while Mario under a Heavy Mushroom's effect looks similar, it's still a different shade from both and has visible pupils and eyelids. That aside, for the four more of you voting to keep Metal Luigi as its own article, I'd really like to know why. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:07, June 11, 2020 (EDT)

That's like saying that the Curse Mushroom is different from a Poison Mushroom, even though they are the same item with a different name even with it's Japanese name but just with a different function from a different series of the Mario franchise. It seems pretty similar in a situation how they call it "heavy" instead of "metal" similar to how they call "poison" to "curse" in some Mario games, I wouldn't be surprised if that was some sort translation error or something. However, I keep forgetting that Chromium is a type of metal, I nearly thought you simply meant like just black and white, so you're right. But I still find it rather intriguing and strange that Metal Mario was still given his own slot anyways and the weight could've still easily been ignored anyways since not many would notice a weight set in the game regardless. You got a point about what Sakurai says though I suppose I don't really have anything to counter it, I keep forgetting about how he says "this character can't be in" and then eventually tricks us, the biggest example being Ridley. I guess I have nothing else to add for the Melee trophy info for Metal Mario. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:04, June 12, 2020 (EDT)

The thing is I'm fairly certain the Cursed Mushroom is indeed supposed to be different from a Poison Mushroom, or at least, the Cursed Mushroom only appears within the context of a decreased dice roll item (and actually has a consistent bluish design), whereas the Poison Mushroom tends to only appear in minigames. When Poison Mushrooms eventually show up as dice roll items in the recent Nd Cube games, they still behave a bit differently in that their effect stacks. Regardless, the heavy effect isn't identical to the metal effect in the Super Smash Bros. games. The Metal Mario, heavy Mario, and heavy Metal Mario textures are all different, albeit subtly. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:27, June 12, 2020 (EDT)

In Mario Party 3 the "Poison Mushroom" is an actual item with low dice block numbers. Mario Party 5-7 just calls them "Curse Mushrooms" because since Mario Party 3, the term for getting low dice numbers in the players rolls is called "curse" with nearly exact function and of course it was just re-translated and renamed, possibly from that term, it still has the dashed eyes but with slight hue change on the spots and Poison Mushrooms had gone through loads of changes. Even the Golden Mushroom had an odd rename too and had varying appearances especially in the Mario Party games, the "Super Mushroom Capsule" or "Super 'Shroom Orb" in Mario Party 5 as the capsule and as orbs in Mario Party 6 & 7. I am curious to see an image of how Metal Mario and Mario's Chromium form looks in comparison but it's not mandatory. Also I am Gamermakerguy I just got renamed in case you wonder. --KingGeoshiKoopshi64 (talk) 02:17, June 14, 2020 (EDT)

I also looked into the P&D situation, and from what I can tell (and I may be wrong), the "power up" forms in it are separately selectable and not used via an in-game transformation. This means that if this is correct, this should be covered under "character," but that also includes every other form, and by then Gold Mario has more than enough to be split if these aren't merged. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:34, June 14, 2020 (EDT)

But the Jp version of MP3 also calls them のろいキノコ so it falls on the translators not realizing it wasn't supposed to be "Poison Mushroom" until MP5. Also "Golden Mushroom" is likewise スーパーキノコ. SmokedChili (talk) 04:32, June 14, 2020 (EDT)

About the Mario Kart Arcade GP DX textures, I overlooked something earlier - you can see the difference between "col"[or?] and "spe"[cial] textures here but there is actually another set of textures in the driver folders beginning with "m"[etal] in their filename. A second comparison is here (replacing the version of m_mario_body01_spe in the Metal Mario folder with the one in the Mario folder) - I now believe that the "spe" textures are probably instead used when certain damage effects flash by, so they aren't important to the comparison and I'm only including it due to mixing it up earlier (also why I split it between two pictures, because I noticed this detail midway through editing). Overall the textures in the Metal Mario and Mario driver folders still differ in features such as the eyes, but Mario's Heavy Mushroom effect is labeled identically to the main Metal Mario texture and Metal Mario as a driver does not appear to undergo a transformation when using a Heavy Mushroom as previously asserted. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:07, June 14, 2020 (EDT)

Huh, should've asked me about the textures. "Color" is certainly diffuse/albedo/color. "Spe" refers likely to "specular" (see a list of some texture maps"). It appears to be a particular grayscale mask that determines how "shiny" those pixels should be shaded, and that whiter pixels render as "shinier" than blacker pixels. Metal Mario IS made of a completely different material, metal, than Mario (cloth and flesh), so he's likely to have his own specular map to reflect (pun not intended) that (and in pbr rendering, he'll have a grayscale metallness map that's probably white all over except for the insignia to indicate that he's metallic; Mario Kart Arcade GP DX doesn't use pbr). Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 18:14, June 16, 2020 (EDT)

I see, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I know who to turn to the next time I'm confused about textures. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:34, June 17, 2020 (EDT)

Permission to merge Metal Luigi on this article?

Since so many people who want Metal Luigi's article to be merged on this article and have the Metal Marios stays split (which that is settled), shouldn't Metal Luigi be merged to this article? I just want to check before I go to conclusions. --KingGeoshiKoopshi64 (talk) 02:03, June 24, 2020 (EDT)

That option didn't win, therefore no. If you really wanted that to happen, you should have removed your "oppose" vote and have that as your only vote. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:39, June 24, 2020 (EDT)

I couldn't really tell and was hesitant to post this here, my apologize. I thought secondary votes counted along too to whatever got split or merged (hard to explain), it's not a big deal there. I also wanted to know since I thought Metal Luigi was going to be moved here. But I see it hasn't still and likely for the reasons. --KingGeoshiKoopshi64 (talk) 03:14, June 24, 2020 (EDT)

Has the proposal been settled?

The option to do nothing didn't even outnumber the first option by three votes. Am I reading rule 9 properly? Shouldn't this be extended rather than close? Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 18:52, June 25, 2020 (EDT)

Rule 9 says: All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options. DarkNight (talk) 19:03, June 25, 2020 (EDT)

You're thinking of Rule 10, which only applies to proposals with Support/Oppose. Rule 9 is for proposals with more than two options to be decided by more than half the people voting. 21 people voted, half of that is 10.5. The majority option has 12 people voting, which is more than half. The second-highest option has 10 people, which is just under half. 19:04, June 25, 2020 (EDT)

All right. This is weirdly convoluted. I think it should be like simply one option getting the most votes by a margin of three. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 19:22, June 25, 2020 (EDT)

Rule 9 was changed like that because when the proposal for multiple option voting passed, the one to change the rule was made right after because of the concern that an option with majority support wouldn't win because it wouldn't have the majority of total votes. It shifted the weight from votes to voters. SmokedChili (talk) 18:45, June 26, 2020 (EDT)

This seems more a total obfuscation to dodge the problem rather than actually solving it IMO Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:22, June 27, 2020 (EDT)

Dr. Mario 64

This came up during the previous proposal so I'm going to start a discussion about it now. In Dr. Mario 64, (Dr.) Mario is specifically shown transforming into Metal Mario, which logically would make it an appearance of the form. The only reason we also cover it on the Metal Mario character page is because in VS Mode you can have Dr. Mario and Metal Mario being played as at the same time. However, Metal Mario's role in this game is identical to Vampire Wario, who we don't have split - Wario is shown transforming into Vampire Wario and can later be used in VS Mode alongside regular Wario. I think this is a clear case of them being separated solely for gameplay purposes, since in the actual story of the game it's just the form. This should make it a canonical (yes, the Mario franchise doesn't have a canon, just bear with me here) appearance of the form, not the character. Can we agree to cover this appearance solely on the form page? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:19, July 16, 2020 (EDT)

Thing is, though, you could say the same thing regarding the Metal battle; it's the same entity in a different context, that context being what determines this split. Similarly, there is the P&D case, which is a separately selectable "character" from the base Mario (as are the rest of his forms), yet solely covered on the "form" page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:32, July 16, 2020 (EDT)

I think we can agree to this at minimum, though I still don't understand why we're basing the split off games without story. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:44, July 23, 2020 (EDT)

Story in general, or the absence of it, doesn't really have anything to do with the split, but in Dr. Mario 64's case the story specifically shows that Metal Mario is Mario himself. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:12, July 23, 2020 (EDT)

(reply to months-ago discussion) I still think having a page for everything Metal Mario, both form and character, is the way to go for this problem of determining what should go in what category. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 18:53, November 27, 2020 (EST)

Merge Metal Mario, take 2

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

merge 8-0
I'm aware that this has already been argued a lot, but I think that at the end of the day, there really isn't any good reason to keep Metal Mario (form) separate from this page, and it probably beats out Boom Boom as the strangest split I've seen on the wiki. I'm honestly confused as to how it managed to stay like this for so long, and how the previous proposal managed to fail. These are exactly the same thing as each other, the sole difference being their roles, which obviously doesn't warrant a split or we should be splitting Bowser for being both a playable character and a final boss depending on the game. Since the original proposal to split these, many other cases of a power-up form being used as a character have arisen, some of which, such as Cat Peach, Tanooki Mario, and Gold Mario, have appeared as characters in multiple games, so if we're not going to split those (which would be even more of a mess), then we should merge this for consistency. Additionally, it seems that this character and form separation was entirely fan-made, as the only official source to ever imply that they are different as far as I am aware was a since-deleted bio for Metal Mario on the North American Mario Kart 7 website which briefly mentioned that he was Mario's 'rival' (which was released after the wiki had already split these); every single other source has either treated them as the same or been ambiguous, which I think is evidence enough that Nintendo themselves don't care for this distinction and they just wanted another character to fill out the rosters of some spin-off games, so I don't think we should care about this distinction either. These points combined with the other points that were made by the first proposal and its supporters' votes I think are convincing enough to merge these (I was originally going to include counter-points for the votes of the opposers, but the proposal already addressed all of them, and there was only one anyway). The above discussion also proves that this split really just does nothing but cause confusion. Also, I'm not including Metal Luigi in this proposal although I agree that he should be merged as well, since I think that's a subject for another proposal and would be easier to do if we had just one Metal Mario page.

Proposer: Hewer (talk)
Deadline: September 19, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Hewer (talk) Per both proposals.
2. Somethingone (talk) Per proposal.
3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Yes
4. Ray Trace (talk) For me, Mario Kart Tour alts torpedo'd pretty much my old reasoning to why his article should be split from the form.
5. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per the old proposal, per the new proposal.
6. Bazooka Mario (talk) I'm supportive of the "unify this subject around a concept rather than hair-splitting distinction between character and form". I envision a Metal Mario article that deals with both the form and the character. Content can be like "Metal Mario is a form in Super Mario 64. Metal Mario is a playable character in Mario Kart 8 and has funny speech patterns from Mario. Metal Mario as a separate character and the metal form appear in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX." All of this will save speculative headache in the end. I still think Metal Mario is a separate character in some games, particularly with the odd "Mia mama" and "Papa" sort of quips that suggest a doppleganger, but you can just discuss this separate character alongside the form in the same article rather than jump from one article to another.
7. WildWario (talk) Per all.
8. RHG1951 (talk) Per all.

"Metal-Head Mario"

Should this be mentioned as an alternate name? Though it is just used in SM64 like... once, as far as I know.

It could be something like: "Metal Mario (also called Metal-Head Mario in one occasion), is a recurring power-up and variant of Mario..."
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lord Milaneso (talk).

I've added it. Also, please remember to sign your comments with ~~~~ Mario JC 22:22, July 14, 2023 (EDT)

Oof, you're right. Thanks. Lord Milaneso (talk) 21:27, July 15, 2023 (EDT)