Talk:Bowser's Minions

Alternate Versions

Should Clawgrip, Tryclyde, Fryguy and Mouser (the character), who were members of the "Koopa Pack"/"Koopa Troopers" in The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! and Nintendo Comics System, be included on the list of operatives? -- Sir Grodus

Yes, but with tags next to their names stating that it was only on the Super Show. Booster

I'd say so. Also, shouldn't Yoshi be listed under the enemies of the Koopa Troop (as he helped bring them down in Super Mario World, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Sunshine, ext...? --Bentendo 11:07, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Isn't that "enemies of the Koopa Troop"... well, isn't there like, [[Category:Protecters of the Mushroom Kingdom]] or something? Max2

They don't really need to be protectors of the Mushroom Kingdom to be enemies of the Koopa Troop; guys like the Smithy Gang and X-Nauts are enemies of the Koopa Troop, but certainly not protectors of the Mushroom Kingdom. -- Sir Grodus

I mean, technically we could put, like Taste T. or the bush that gives you the Koopa leaf 8) but really, there are to many enemies of the Koopa Troop. Max2

But the Yoshi species have tried to take them down in atleast five different games (Yoshi's Story, Island, Island DS, Mario World, Mario Sunshine). --Bentendo 11:23, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm going to remove Petey Pirahna from the list of major members, because he was never proven to be part of the Koopa Troop. MarioFan9999 10:23, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Mario sunshine, NSMB, Super Princess Peach.... in all those games, he was working for Bowser. I think it's safe to say he's in the Koopa troop.GreenKoopa - Comments or questions?

Bowser Baddies

I think that the Bowser Baddies are just the crew of the koopa cruiser. they were never called otherwise afterwards. - Senor Luigi

Dry Bowser

Since Dry Bowser is really just undead Bowser, Is it really necessary to list Dry Bowser as a seperate member? Hence, I will remove Dry Bowser from the list.

Supa Koopa

what is the koopa troop called in bowser inside story super mario galexy or any other new games?

--Raushad 16:52, 13 January 2010 (EST)

== I guess it's the Koopa Troop in recent games. In some games, the Koopa Troop is not mentioned, but they are still the Koopa Troop. -Scorpion999

Request to seperate.

I would like to request making Koopa Kingdom, which currently redirects to here, into its own article. I was looking for info on it, and I had to sort it out of this page. I'm kinda new here, though, and I don't feel confident doing it myself. Besides, I'd like to see what others think about this first. Thanks! 1337star 17:38, 5 February 2010 (EST)

This page should not really cover every single enemy that has been remotely associated with Bowser anyway. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 08:59, 10 February 2010 (EST)

Shouldn't Koopa Kingdom redirect to Dark Land? After all, that is the land Bowser is shown to rule. I'm fairly confident that it actually is the KK (no pun intended).
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stitch99 (talk).

It should redirect to Dark Land if Dark Land is specifically referred to as the Koopa Kingdom in official sources. Anything else would be speculation (which this subject already has enough of). Besides, Dark Land is far from the only place that Koopa has ruled in the games. Pretty much every game places his castle in a different area, and the ever-changing geography of the entire game world makes it impossible to actually define where a "Koopa Kingdom" would be anyway.--vellidragon 18:52, 3 May 2010 (EDT)

Bowser Jr.

Shouldn't Bowser Jr. be on "major members." Lemmy Koopa Fan (talk)

He's one of the supreme leaders. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Kamek a Foe?

Since when did the Koopa Troop fight Kamek? Sorry if that's a stupid question, but I need to know. Tails777 (talk)

Count Bleck

I mean he was once supreme leader. Fawful isn't a member of the Koopa Troop, but he is listed under supreme leaders. Tails777 Talk to me!

Well, Fawful took total control, but after Bleck brainwashed most of them, Bowser still had followers (in the Bitlands). I don't think Bleck can be considered a supreme leader since he didn't have control over all of the Koopa Troop. Mario4Ever (talk)

Well than neither should smithy or fawful since Bowser always had a small minority of troops loyal to him even when they were in power Goomba's Shoe15 (talk)

Smithy had control over all but two individuals (if memory serves, they ran shops), I believe. I think the difference lies in the fact that the supreme leaders use the Koopa Troop as their primary attack force. I could be wrong, but I believe Bleck's Army only had a significant amount of the Koopa Troop in Castle Bleck. Everywhere else was primarily populated by new enemies. Mario4Ever (talk)

You are wrong Bowser held control over a division of his army who attacked mushroom way, Bowser also Count Bleck held control over the vast percentage of Koopa Troop Forces and if supreme leader means the one who controls the army than he would be supreme leader especially since it appears that the troops that were loyal to him still attack Bowser after he joins the party Goomba's Shoe15 (talk)

Yes, but Bowser did not retain that control, losing that amount to Smithy later. Just because Bowser gets attacked after joining the party doesn't mean that those troops serve Bleck; it just means they're programmed to be general enemies. Wouldn't Nastasia technically be supreme leader, not Bleck, considering the former actually does the brainwashing and commanding (e.g. commanding troops to grab Luigi)? Mario4Ever (talk)

No because she was under orders from Count Bleck to brainwash them Goomba's Shoe15 (talk)

I don't remember her being told to do so. I thought she just told the count that she was going to take care of the stragglers, which she did not out of subservience but out of admiration. Mario4Ever (talk)

I don't remember any real lines dealing with the issue but i do remember the brainwashed troops saying all hail count bleck so they were followers of him Goomba's Shoe15 (talk)

Fair enough. It's been about four years since I've touched the game, so my memory isn't what it used to be. Mario4Ever (talk)

Koopa Troop Ranks

Shouldn't we list the ranks of the highest minions in the Koopa Troop based on what has been shown. Bowser is obviously the leader of the Koopa Troop. Bowser Jr. is second-in-command because he is Bowser's son and a prince and therefore, heir to the throne (Fact). He has also been shown commanding the Koopalings in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and has ordered Kamek to do a task in New Super Mario Bros. U. Kamek is presumably third-in-command since he is the royal family's caretaker(this has been shown), has very high magic skills(more than the Koopalings and regular magikoopas), and is the highest ranked minion since he has been in the Koopa Troop for a long time(from when Bowser was a baby). He has even commanded the Koopa Troop himself during that time. Lastly, the Koopalings would become the next in command being high ranking generals. As Ludwig is the presumed leader of the Koopalings, he would the fourth-in-command of the Koopa Troop.

Before anyone brings up the Super Mario Bros. 3 player's guide saying Ludwig was originally second-in-command, there are two possible reasons for that explanation. It could mean that during that time the Koopalings were still considered Bowser's children and since Bowser Jr. didn't exist yet, Ludwig would be heir to the throne. This has been retconned though. The second reason could be that since the Koopalings are the only ones helping Bowser in that adventure and Kamek was absent, Ludwig by default would have to be second-in-command. I think the first reason is more likely to be true.

What do you guys think? Should we mention the ranks? Smasher345

I'm totally with you. Everything you typed makes sense, so there should be rankings. Triple K, Skye 17:23, 8 April 2014 (EDT)

Suggestions

I'm thinking we should put a section for usurpers such as Smithy and show a photo of Bowser's insignias from Galaxy among others.--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 22:22, 8 February 2014 (EST)

When is it ever referred to as simply Koopa?--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 16:08, 14 September 2014 (EDT)

Rename to "Koopa clan"?

I believe the most widely-used name is supposed to be the one chosen for articles, and apparently the term "Koopa clan" was used throughout the Paper Mario games. I think that would make it the most recurring name, but someone may need to double-check on that. I'm fairly certain Koopa Troop is actually just above "Bowser Baddies" (used only in reference to the Koopa Cruiser crew) in terms of usage in official sources. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:55, 13 May 2014 (EDT

It's used in Bowser's Fortune Street bio. If one name isn't clearly dominant over the other, most recent wins. --Glowsquid (talk) 12:15, 13 May 2014 (EDT)

Is "Koopa clan" not used in the more-recent 3DS RPGs? If not, then I guess that makes sense. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:25, 13 May 2014 (EDT)

I wish I hadn't lost Dream Team. :\ PikaSamus (talk) 12:28, 13 May 2014 (EDT)

What's going on?

I understand that people are trying to be practical, but I prefer knowing who's affiliated with the Koopa Troop, what sort of things they use, and what kind of plans they had in the past. Can we please change it back to what it once was?--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 10:58, 4 October 2014 (EDT)

Glad to see the member thing is restored, but why are the Koopa Kids listed as leaders? If they are, then shouldn't Kammy be in there, too?--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 19:19, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

How about we make a header for the Koopa Troop like with the games that lists the affiliates, locations, and such?--Ladies-Man1: user and writer (talk) 20:09, 1 September 2015 (EDT)

Example? Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 20:10, 1 September 2015 (EDT)

The kind that's show at the bottom of this http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Ribbon_Army if it's not too much of a problem.--Ladies-Man1: user and writer (talk) 09:29, 3 September 2015 (EDT)

We've got something similar for games and Bowser's family.--Ladies-Man1: user and writer (talk) 19:45, 3 September 2015 (EDT)

Such as that miscellaneous Koopa thing at the bottom of Wendy_O._Koopa's article.--Ladies-Man1: user and writer (talk) 11:47, 14 November 2015 (EST)

Are in Japan Turtle Tribe (「カメ族」) and Koopa Corps (「クッパ軍団」) the same thing?

I just found this line in Bowser's bio on the Super Mario Memorial Book on page 59:

「クッパ軍団を率いる巨大なカメ族の大魔王にしてマリオの宿命のライバル。」

Now, I'm having many trouble trying to translate this, but it seems to suggest that the Koopa Corps (「クッパ軍団」) lead the Turtle Tribe (「カメ族」). Am I wrong? What is the correct translation for this line? What is the relationship between Turtle Tribe and Koopa Corps suggeted by this line?--Mister Wu (talk) 06:41, 11 January 2016 (EST)

My rough take on the translation is that Bowser is the Great Demon King of the Turtle Tribe who commands the Koopa Corps. In this intepretation, Koopa Corps would be Bowser's faction of the Turtle Tribe. Or something like that, I'm not completely sure. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:39, 11 January 2016 (EST)

Now that I've taken a closer look at this, it seems my original intepretation isn't too far off. In case I have translated the part 「[クッパ軍団を率いる]巨大なカメ族の大魔王」 correctly, in English it's something like this: "The huge, Great Demon King of the Turtle Tribe [who commands the Koopa Corps]". So ultimately, クッパ軍団 and カメ族 are different things. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 14:19, 26 February 2016 (EST)

Thanks! We should probably correct the main page, then. It will be interesting to see if in the future this distinction will lead to something.--Mister Wu (talk) 15:24, 26 February 2016 (EST)

Peach a member?

Since when was Princess Peach ever a member of the Koopa Troop?174.52.54.159 14:39, 20 March 2017 (EDT)

For the same reason Mario is listed as one: They and Bowser team up during games like Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars and Super Paper Mario, making them "honorary Koopa Troop members". 14:42, 20 March 2017 (EDT)

That makes no sense at all Gamemaster111234 (talk) 14:59, 3 December 2017 (EST)

Bowser himself has stated that Mario and Peach were members of the Koopa Troop. Seeing as Bowser is the leader of said troop, it falls to him to decide who his members are, even if it's just temporary. 15:05, 3 December 2017 (EST)

The structure of the Koopa Troop according to the Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia

The Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia, published in 1991, includes on pages 88 and 89Media:SMCE pages 88 89.png the structure of the Koopa Troop. There are of course some parts still stated nowadays, such as the Turtle Tribe leading the Koopa Troop as you can see in the discussion above, in general however this information is outdated, with the Royal Family no longer existing as such (in current Japanese material it is not mentioned at all and, as a consequence,Bowser Jr. and Bowser aren't stated to be part of it, back then it was referred to Bowser, the Koopalings and, before Super Mario All-Stars, Blue Bowser) and Kamek is missing, since Yoshi's Island was yet to be released. Do you think we should add it nonetheless, maybe in its own section to separate it from the current depiction of the Koopa Troop?--Mister Wu (talk) 11:39, 11 April 2017 (EDT)

The Koopa Troop article needs a major rewriting, anyway. I'm all for splitting the information between past and current renditions. 11:56, 11 April 2017 (EDT)

Luigi

I know it says Luigi isn't considered part of the Koopa Troop when he and Bowser work together in Super Paper Mario, however Bowser "hires" Luigi into his forces in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga in a similar way to how he considered his SMRPG teammates minions I suppose. So I think if Mario counts as a (former) member Luigi should too then, correct? Or is there another reason why Luigi isn't included? -- 21:29, 27 July 2017 (EDT)

It's less that he hired him and more that Luigi was confused for one of Bowser's minions and got dragged along. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:33, 27 July 2017 (EDT)

Removing "Mario", "Peach", and the one-off RPG guys from the infobox

Personally, I think these entries are not infobox-worthy information. For something as large and as expansive as the Koopa Troop, the infobox is used mostly for general information. For starters, we don't add Yoshi's Island bosses as "members", despite being technically considered as one. In addition, since they were only temporary members, not permanent, unlike the rest of the entries on the list, I think being described as is in the article is better than leaving them in the infobox. Ray Trace^(T|C) 15:03, 3 December 2017 (EST)

While I agree, it should be noted that the page is currently sporting a rewrite tag. Bearing that in mind, it might be better to just get the overhaul going before losing too much sleep over the details of a flawed page that might not even exist for much longer in this form.

But really, if there exists contradictory/contextually irrelevant information between games, like the Yoshi's Island example and now the SMRPG thing, maybe those games should have their own separate instance of a member list alltogether instead of trying to make the top one fit all. - Gabumon^(talk) 15:36, 3 December 2017 (EST)

The problem is that currently the Koopa Troop is just a generic term to indicate Bowser's army. The only definite structure that it had is the one of that official 1991 book which ironically still seems to be the source of the current official material and even the most recent RPGs, if the Super Mario Pia, Paper Mario: Color Splash and Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser are an indication. If you want, I can provide the translation that 2257 (talk) made of those pages in this talk page so we have at least an idea of Nintendo's old memos on the Koopa Troop. The chart is old, though, and Nintendo seems to rather prefer to maintain the troop undefined so changes can be made without particular restrictions. The Koopa Troop is Bowser's army, everything else is pretty much inconsistent. I'd even argue about how much Bowser Jr. is the leader of the Koopa Troop in Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle. If it were for me I'd rather not list the members at all, we're trying to define what Nintendo is no longer trying to clearly define since the '90s - the classification of the enemies was evidently missing in both the Super Mario Pia and the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros..--Mister Wu (talk) 16:11, 3 December 2017 (EST)

Bowser's Minions

So I go to search up Bowser's Minions (I wanted to get to this article), and it redirects me to M&L: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. A) Why? B) Shouldn't we make a disambugation page if that's really how we want it?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lord Junior (talk).

This isn't really the sort of thing that warrants a disambiguation page. I believe the SS+BM page takes priority for the redirect because it's part of the game's name. Besides, there is an about template on that page which leads to the Koopa Troop page which I think is good enough. Nightwicked Bowser 09:26, July 7, 2021 (EDT)

Turtle Tribe in relation to Koopa Troop

The boundary between the Turtle Tribe and Koopa Troop is something that's come up on this very talk page several times, but not much has come of it. I have this idea: why not just keep the "Turtle Tribe" info on the Koopa species article? I think Turtle Tribe basically serves the same purpose as the turtle species article, with turtle enemies and non-tribe members together both being part of Bowser's army. The names in other languages also split between both articles, which violates once and only once. There's no other name for the Koopa species as a whole in many languages. We'd trim and move the Turtle Tribe info from Koopa Troop and into the Koopa species article, and turn Turtle Tribe into a redirect for the Koopa species. How does that sound? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:32, October 18, 2021 (EDT)

Yes, I agree that the closest to the "Turtle Tribe" concept in the West is the concept of the "Koopas". Even though one is a tribe that also leads Bowser's Army and the other is more a biological concept grouping related turtle species, at this point I don't see Nintendo of America adopting the "Turtle Tribe" term and dropping the "Koopa" term - there's not a strong reason to do so after all, the "Koopa" term is more than adequate to fit the stories of the main games and even of the various spin-offs. In this sense it's interesting to see how in some languages the "Koopa" term became the name of the Koopa Troopas, with Bowser still being the king of the Koopas: it shows how hardly essential are these concepts in the games and why we have troubles finding the proper terms in the various languages.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:15, October 18, 2021 (EDT)

I support this as well. Another thing I wanted to bring up is since "Koopa" is not a singular "species," should that article's identifier be changed to "tribe," as it is both initially described in SMB's western manual and how it is still described in Japanese? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:04, October 19, 2021 (EDT)

I think "Koopa clan" is still in use semiregularly... What's the better word to use? LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:06, October 19, 2021 (EDT)

Name usage

What games has the name "Koopa Troop" been used in, specifically? I know the term originates from Super Mario RPG, but aside from that and Fortune Street (which has a very very liberal localization, IIRC references to things like Rudy and the Black Jewel aren't at all present in Japanese), I can't seem to find any other uses of it. Trying to look into things to see if this article might need a name change due to that term rarely being used but it's a bit hard to find what term was used where. BubbleRevolution (talk) 03:33, October 22, 2022 (EDT)

It was used in Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey. Nightwicked Bowser 06:35, October 22, 2022 (EDT)

Do you remember where it was used there at all? Been looking around and can't seem to find the line. BubbleRevolution (talk) 22:57, October 22, 2022 (EDT)

In the Bowser Jr.'s Journey mode during the cutscene after Extra Spice, Bowser Jr. says "Let's show them what the Koopa Troop can do". Nightwicked Bowser 03:40, October 23, 2022 (EDT)

Since the name is used frequently across this site despite its infrequent usage in the Mario franchise, I think we should add sources for when the name is used. Anyone else in agreement? SolemnStormcloud (talk) 18:49, November 11, 2023 (EST)

Super Mario RPG

Should we list Mokura, Gu Goomba, Terra Cotta and Malakoopas as members? Bowser summons a Mokura for Poison Gas and Gu Goombas, Terra Cottas and Malakoopas are former members who defected to Smithy's side but are scared of Bowser and run away if he's in fights with them. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 21:07, March 27, 2023 (EDT)

Rename

Judging by the scrapbook in Super Mario RPG's remake, it seems the "Koopa Troop" is being renamed to "Bowser's Minions", the same term used in, er, Bowser's Minions. I'm thinking it will soon be time to move this page, if it isn't already, unless there is a recent usage of the "Koopa Troop" name I'm forgetting. But even then, it seems like the new name is here to stay. Blinker (talk) 20:26, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

The most recent usage of the name "Koopa Troop" that I'm aware of is Bowser Jr.'s Journey from 2019. Bowser Jr. says it in the scene after Extra Spice. Nightwicked Bowser 20:39, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Super Mario RPG invented the "Koopa Troop" term in the first place, but it has also at least been used in Fortune Street, Mario Party 9, Super Mario Run, and Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020. I would urge comparing the Japanese text later to see if the same phrase is used or if it has been updated there too. Also consider that "Bowser's Minions" also referred to the Koopalings for a time, so it might still be better as a disambig. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:19, November 11, 2023 (EST)

I think moving it to "Bowser's Minions" is pretty necessary in this case, given we use the "most recent name" precedent for terms that have long been referred to by other names (see Maw-Ray), and the fact that usage of "Koopa Troop" is somewhat infrequent. BubbleRevolution (talk) 14:17, November 16, 2023 (EST)

Confirmed: in the remake's Japanese text, the term is「クッパぐんだん」(Kuppa Gundan), just like the original game. Also, BubbleRevolution: the recent name rule is not absolute when there's room to invoke exceptions, such as the aforementioned identical name shared with the Koopalings, and it should be noted that Bowser's Minions is also pretty infrequent. I personally prefer the disambig solution for now. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:50, November 18, 2023 (EST)

As much as I like the term "Koopa Troop", personally I'm concerned its usage in games since the original Super Mario RPG are mostly cases of citogenesis. Despite being used in that game beforehand, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that our usage of that term on the wiki popularized it. Notably all the later games that term has been used in came out after we put ourselves on the map as a wiki, so to speak. Additionally, Fortune Street and Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020 were both localized by third parties who would have more reason to reference wikis, and there's evidence of wiki influence elsewhere in Fortune Street's localization (Rudy being referred to as "Rudy the Clown" with that capitalization, as his page was formerly titled). Although Mario Party 9, Super Mario Run and Bowser Jr.'s Journey were localized internally at Nintendo Treehouse, there's evidence in another game that someone there has referenced us at least once: the use of "Ghost" to refer to Polterpiranhas (along with arguably the use of the term Nipper Dandelion) in Piranha Plant's Palutena's Guidance conversation in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Anyway, since most of the uses of the term "Koopa Troop" since the original Super Mario RPG have been in some rather throwaway flavor text and lines of dialogue, it's possible that when the Super Mario RPG remake's localization rolled around, the term was given closer scrutiny and deemed outdated, hence the change. "Bowser's Minions", as OP stated, was used previously in the localization of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions (including its title, which I feel should hold some weight). In Japanese the equivalent is「クッパぐんだん」(Kuppa Gundan) as usual, so I do think the intent is for it to be the modern localization of the term. PaperSplash (talk) 13:23, November 19, 2023 (EST)

Should somebody make a TPP for this? Really feel like this should be moved. BiggestMan 15:30, November 19, 2023 (EST)

Huh? It seems it HAS been moved. Blinker (talk) 15:39, November 19, 2023 (EST)

I'm a bit conflicted on this, but I've moved it back until a consensus is reached. Nightwicked Bowser 17:07, November 19, 2023 (EST)

I'd also advocate a rename to "Bowser's Minions" on the same grounds of possible citogenesis as PaperSplash, but we should start a proposal for this. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 13:02, November 20, 2023 (EST)

If citogenesis was avoided in the Super Mario RPG remake, shouldn't this also apply to "Mini Goomba", which should be using its older name? Outside of that and Bowser's Minions, the remake's localization almost seems like it was designed in a 90's vacuum, as if it was made with the mindset of furthering precisely what the original translation set out to do. But at any rate, I agree to putting it to a proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:13, November 20, 2023 (EST)

Why would Mini Goomba be using the older name? Blinker (talk) 14:42, November 20, 2023 (EST)

I'd probably employ a wait and see approach. The Super Mario RPG remake introduces a bit of a gnarl how to approach some subjects but IMO jury's still out if they're really the kind of game to rely on for broader localization rules. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 00:52, November 21, 2023 (EST)

I don't entirely agree with the idea of the remake's localization being done in a "90's vacuum", but that's neither here nor there. And I wouldn't call "Mini Goomba" citogenesis; the new name originated from official sources and it was actually us that were slow to update the wiki to reflect it. Same with "Lava Bubble" as well (I know that name was used as far back as Super Mario World but it was far from standardized at the time). I also don't see how we would benefit from a "wait and see" approach. They went out of their way to change every instance of the term "Koopa Troop" in the game it originated in. To me, the writing is clearly on the wall. What more evidence do we need? PaperSplash (talk) 01:39, November 22, 2023 (EST)

I agree. It's clearly a new name and Minions was already used in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga & Bowser's Minions. And no, Mini Goomba is not citogenesis either. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:02, November 23, 2023 (EST)

And Koopa Troop was used right in the next Mario & Luigi remake (though it also used Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies). Though honestly, now that I think about it, I think "Bowser's Minions" is a direct carryover of the Koopalings. Wasn't the first Mario & Luigi remake the first game to have Nintendo of Europe reunify the Koopaling name? LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:17, November 23, 2023 (EST)

Paper Jam did. Nightwicked Bowser 09:23, November 23, 2023 (EST)

Right, Paper Jam. Looking at the quotes page shows that they may have started redistributing the phrase "Bowser's minions" there to refer to Bowser's army. Hmm. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:43, November 23, 2023 (EST)

Well, yes, Paper Jam used "Bowser's Minions" as a translations for 「クッパ軍団」, you can see this by comparing Starlow's line here with the corresponding line in Japanese. It's worth noting how "Koopa Troop" is a literal translation of "Kuppa gundan", with the caveat that "Kuppa" was translated as "Koopa" when the corresponding Western term should have been "Bowser". In this sense the new translation is more in line with the Western terminology, with the caveat that "Bowser's Minions" itself was the term used for the Koopalings in British English before the reintroduction of the "Koopalings" term - that happened in Paper Jam, by the way, which means that in terms of script there is no internal ambiguity.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:57, December 9, 2023 (EST)

All right, that convinces me that "Bowser's Minions" isn't a one-off/mistake, so I can agree to a move - as long as we keep track of the previous names used at the time, that is. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:53, December 10, 2023 (EST)

It should also be noted that while BJJ has Bowser Jr. saying the "Koopa Troop" in a cutscene, Bowser (Melee)'s description says "Minions" PrincessPeachFan (talk) 09:04, November 24, 2023 (EST)

Personally unsure on this at the moment. RosalinaFanboi777 (talk) 13:51, November 30, 2023 (EST)

I think Bowser's Minions would be a more fitting name. It describes them much better. Bowser hasn't been referred to strictly as "Koopa" in the west since Mario 3. Mikan-chan (talk) 09:05, December 2, 2023 (EST)

Hear me out: Their motive

In Paper Mario, Kammy Koopa states that the Koopas' motive is to get revenge on those who have treated them poorly, and I quote: "Your subjects are so upset because their wishes aren't being granted! How delightful! They deserve it for the way they've treated us Koopas!" Does she mean the way the Mushroom people treated the Koopas for attacking their kingdom in the first place or were the Mushroom people responsible for the Koopas' attacks on their kingdom?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackjolt1 (talk).

I always was curious about that line, actually. I do wonder what the original Japanese line says, if it better explains whether they are retaliating for some offscreen thing or just want revenge for being foiled in previous games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:28, November 29, 2023 (EST)

You know, i've been wondering about that for a while now. Hopefully the Japanese version answers that question. -- FanOfYoshi 00:06, November 30, 2023 (EST)

I looked it up, she says (as long as I haven't misspelled something):

ねがいごとが かなわなくなって キノコワールドにすむ れんちゅうもさぞかし こまっておる じゃろうて

いいきみじゃ

いままで われら カメいちぞくを じゃまものあつかい しおってからに

As for what that last sentence means, I dunno, something to do with treating the turtle tribe as monsters? Blinker (talk) 06:23, November 30, 2023 (EST)

More like treating them as a nuisance. PaperSplash (talk) 17:20, November 30, 2023 (EST)

Translation anyone? Jackjolt1 (talk) 21:46, December 3, 2023 (EST)

It's roughly the same as the English line. Of note is it uses "kame-ichizoku" (turtle tribe), meaning "Koopas" in this case refers to all the turtles rather than the Koopa Troop. Here's a rough translation:

The children of the Mushroom World are in trouble because their wishes can no longer be fulfilled.

Such good luck!

Until now, the Turtle Tribe has been treated as a nuisance.

Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:18, December 3, 2023 (EST)

So does this refer to the way the Mushroom people treated all Koopas for attacking the Mushroom Kingdom in the first place or for an offscreen action before that? Jackjolt1 (talk) 22:27, December 3, 2023 (EST)

No way of knowing, unfortunately. If I had to hazard a guess, though, the "treating as a nuisance" implies it's because the Koopas keep invading. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:29, December 3, 2023 (EST)

Rename proposal

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

rename 18-0
Time to get right down to it. Per the above discussion, the original Super Mario RPG was the first time the "Koopa Troop" name was used. However, it is a game that's pretty notorious for lots of translation disrepancies, further evidenced by Mister Wu's comment about it being a possible transliteration. In the game's remake, this was one of many names changed, this case to "Bowser's Minions" as has been used in many prior games way more often than "Koopa Troop". Although there have been several other games that used "Koopa Troop", the latest (that I'm aware of) being Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey in one line of dialogue, I think by this point "Bowser's Minions" has by far become the more recognisable name.

Proposer: Swallow (talk)
Deadline: January 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Swallow (talk) I was on the fence myself, but now leaning towards this.
2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal and my comment above.
3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
4. Camwoodstock (talk) By this point, this seems to be Nintendo's preferred name for Bowser's army. If the fact that the weird side-mode in the Superstar Saga was literally named after them and was called Bowser's Minions didn't clue us in, the fact that they renamed them in the SMRPG remake to Bowser's Minions when that game was the original thing to popularize the "Koopa Troop" nickname definitely sells it for us. ;P
5. Tails777 (talk) Per proposal
6. Biggestman (talk) Per all. I never liked when names were only 1 letter off from other names anyways.
7. Mushroom Head (talk) Per all. That moment you search Koopa Troop and click the first page it shows, but it is in fact Koopa Troopa may well be the worst moment ever.
8. FanOfYoshi (talk) Koopa Troop is a more unique name, but in the end, Bowser's Minions is more straightforward.
9. PaperSplash (talk) Per proposal, Camwoodstock and my own comment about the usage of "Koopa Troop" in later games being a potential case of citogenesis.
10. PrincessPeachFan (talk) Per all.
11. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
12. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
13. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
14. Mikan-chan (talk) Per all.
15. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) I've personally heard the name "Koopa Troop" used more than "Bowser's Minions", but the name "Koopa Troop" is literally one letter off of the Koopa Troopa article, so I vote to change the name for the sake of convenience.
16. BubbleRevolution (talk) Per all.
17. Zootalo (talk) Per all.
18. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) It's the name that's currently getting used. Bowser's Minions may be mistaken for the Koopalings but the name Koopa Troop is now getting retired.

Comments

We should say something about the fact that the "Extra Spice" cutscene in BJJ has Bowser Jr. saying "Koopa Troop" but Bowser (Melee)'s description says "Minions". PrincessPeachFan (talk) 10:10, December 23, 2023 (EST)

About some of them...

Are we sure that enemies such as the Unagi/Maw-Ray or Sushi are directly affiliated to Bowser? -- FanOfYoshi 10:50, March 20, 2024 (EDT)

Redundancy

This talk page or section has a conflict or question that needs to be answered. Please try to help and resolve the issue by leaving a comment.

There's a gallery with the various members of the Minions...but we also have a table listing the members and member species. Should we delete one? PrincessPeachFan (talk) 00:18, April 8, 2024 (EDT)

No, they're both useful. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:30, April 8, 2024 (EDT)

Useful or not, some of these galleries are walls of images in their current state, and we should probably make at least some parts of the "Members" section collapsible. I suggest dividing the "Secondary leadership" header into two subheaders—"Recurring", for characters like Boom Boom, King Bob-omb, etc; and "Others", for characters with, say, only one or two appearances in the Koopa Troop/Bowser's Minions. The latter gallery would be collapsible, similar to the history sections on our Super Smash Bros. fighter lists. Sorting the members in chronological order could also help the galleries appear less scattered. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 12:24, May 6, 2024 (EDT)

I think a lot of the "secondary leadership" should be moved to the "other notable members," as a lot of them aren't actually treated as leaders of a particular group, but rather big guys that are more difficult to fight. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:22, May 6, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, that makes more sense. If we were to do that, we could make the "Other notable members" section collapsible instead. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 14:20, May 6, 2024 (EDT)

Honestly, shouldn't we be just reorganizing these into a table and keeping the images to a minimum as much as possible? It feels really discordant in organization, especially on mobile displays, and also it's really heavy on mobile data for some users. --EleCyon (talk) 05:21, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

Yes, I'd rather this article also be more straightforward about who are the leaders and who are the common enemies, rather try to tie knots on ranking and organizing members. Turn the "Lesser troops" part into just "minions" or "members", limit it if you must, and put it in gallery format if images are a must. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 16:17, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

Honestly, I don't really see the point in including what is more or less just a "list of enemies that appear in games where Bowser or Kamek are the villain". Blinker (talk) 16:38, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

Personally? I find it more serviceable than the List of bosses page. Though of course, the "lesser troops" table is the real star attraction here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:41, October 6, 2024 (EDT)

There's also the fact it's not exclusively bosses and enemies; some NPCs, characters from non-game media, and even playable characters (like Captain Goomba and friends) are also included. Also, not all bosses are there, like the Wiggler from SM64 and Knucklotec, who are explicitly not affiliated with Bowser. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:39, October 13, 2024 (EDT)

I still find the "lesser troops" table in particular a bit eyebrow-raising. I mean, are Nipper Plants part of Bowser's army? Dancing Spear Guys? Goonies? They're video game enemies, I doubt the logistics of which particular enemies are allied with Bowser in any given game is given much consideration anyway. It would be one thing if there was a list of enemies explicitly shown as part of the army, such as in Minion Quest, but as it currently is, it feels more like an excuse to have a fancier looking list of enemies. Blinker (talk) 18:50, October 13, 2024 (EDT)

Okay so uh, I don't think this fancy-looking enemy list is looking good for my loading times. Seriously, it took even longer for me to load the page in my family home's Wi-Fi... I seriously think we should start prioritizing fast over fancy in this case. Also consider mobile users who may take ages to scroll through the page and waste their mobile data because of that many images. --EleCyon (talk) 10:40, October 29, 2024 (EDT)

If image loading times are an issue, then by all means simplify. That's part of the reason I incorporated drop-down sections. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:38, October 29, 2024 (EDT)

I have started working on a complete restructure/rewrite of the page, which can be found here. It's far from complete, but I've aimed at reducing the amount of unsourced, speculative and flowery information on the page. Any feedback on it is appreciated! — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 11:05, October 29, 2024 (EDT)

The rework is complete! Once again, any feedback or changes are appreciated. I put a lot of effort into making a consistent and sourced page, so I'd also appreciate if any big problems and changes were brought to me or talked here in the Talk page first. — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 17:55, November 13, 2024 (EST)

Page quote

I think I prefer the previous quote from Super Mario RPG over the new one from the animated film. Like they're broadly the same thing, but the Super Mario RPG one dovetails with the line "There is also a trend of species-specific monarchs/chiefs within the Minions..." whereas the new one does not. Also the older one reads like more of a group effort than the new one. (Well, because of Bowser's personality, but especially divorced from the footage it reads more like he's naming the minions because he has to.) Salmancer (talk) 17:06, October 31, 2024 (EDT)

Cursa is a member?

Why does it state Cursa is a member in the seized membership bit? the teams never teamed up (not counting darkmess Bowser as he wasnt on bowser's teaam due to being a clone of bowser) -- Efw100

It's "leadership", not "membership". Cursa took control of Bowser's Minions in Sparks of Hope. Nightwicked Bowser 12:13, November 4, 2024 (EST)

Big Troopas?

The Monster List for Super Mario RPG Remake claims that Big Troopas are members of the Minions but there's no special interaction with Bowser in the game. Should they be listed anyways? PrincessPeachFan (talk) 09:05, December 10, 2024 (EST)

That works for me. I added them to the list now, thank you! — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 09:36, December 10, 2024 (EST)