MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71

From the Super Mario Wiki, the Mario encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
All past proposals are archived here. Please add archived proposals to the bottom of the page.
Previous proposals

Consider Super Smash Bros. series titles for recurring themes low-priority

Do not consider 5-10
Something I noticed late yesterday was that the page for "Flower Fields BGM" from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (Or just Yoshi's Island from now on for simplicity) is still titled Yoshi's Island (theme), even after Nintendo Music dropped, and then I realised that some other song titles (Most notably Obstacle Course, also from Yoshi's Island) just don't make a lot of sense. Then I feel it's important to note that even though this is a Mario Wiki (What?!?!?!? Huh!?!?!?) we should also take a look at the Super Smash Bros. titles for themes from other series, with the biggest example I can think of being "Meta Knight's Revenge" from Kirby Super Star, which is actually an incorrectly titled medley of the songs "Boarding the Halberd" and "Havoc Aboard the Halberd". It's also good to look at songs Super Smash Bros. is using a different title for than us, like how it uses the Japanese titles of the Donkey Kong Country OST instead of the correct ones. Between all these facts it should be obvious the track titles in Super Smash Bros. are not something the localisation team puts a whole lot of thought or effort into (Though the original Japanese dev team also mess these up sometimes). Going back to the original point that gave me this realisation, "Yoshi's Island" is a very nondescript track title for a random stage theme which most people would look for by searching for something like "Flower Stage" or possibly even "Ground theme" (Even though that would lead to another song but still), this is especially considering the title screen theme from the game is ALSO called Yoshi's Island, and that's not even considering the Yoshi's Island world map theme from Super Mario World, which I don't know if it even has an official title (Yet, it is coming to Nintendo Music eventually) but I would bet that's ALSO YOSHI'S ISLAND. So I am suggesting to just make Smash Bros. a VERY low-priority source for this specific small aspect of the Wiki to avoid confusion and potentially future misinformation if things go too far.

Proposer: biggestman (talk)
Deadline: November 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. biggestman (talk) Did you know there's a theme titled "Per this proposal" in Super Wiki Bros. Ultimate but the original title is simply "Per Proposal"? INSANE! (Per proposal)
  2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - the theme names given in Smash (particularly Brawl and previous) are more just general descriptions of the contexts they play in rather than actual names. Hence why DK Island Swing became "Jungle Level."
  3. Jdtendo (talk) Per all.
  4. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per Doc and proposal.
  5. LadySophie17 (talk) Per proposal. To me this feels like making a non-Mario game determine the name of a Mario-article.

Oppose

  1. Hewer (talk) The names are from an official source whether we like them or not. Not only that, they come from within the games themselves, putting them at the top of the naming priority list. Tracks that have gone by different names more recently can use those, but those inconsistencies shouldn't invalidate the whole source. We also accept "inconsistent" names from Smash for other subjects, e.g. Propeller Piranha, so it would be odd to single out music. (Also, I'd argue "Meta Knight's Revenge" isn't incorrect, but is the name of the medley rather than of either individual song. On the topic of Kirby music, I'm pretty sure "A Battle of Friends and Bonds 2" from Kirby Star Allies was first called that in Smash before the name appeared in other sources, which would suggest Smash's names aren't all bad.)
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) The names used in the Super Smash Bros. series are from first-party games, are specific localizations of Super Mario specific material, and are localized by Nintendo of America. In my view, that is all that matters for citations, especially given most of these music tracks have not been officially localized into English through other channels. I similarly would not support a proposal to discredit the names for music tracks used in games like Mario & Sonic. However, I do think this proposal is in the ballpark of a reality, which is that melodies that sometimes incorporate multiple compositions (like "Meta Knight's Revenge") and specific arrangements sometimes are given unique names. (This is not unique to the Smash Bros. series — a cursory view of the Video Game Music Database or of officially published sheet music reveals Nintendo is often inconsistent with these names in the West.) In some installments, what is given a unique name for a particular arrangement (like "Princess Peach's Castle" from Melee and labeled as such in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U) is attributed to just one piece in a subsequent game (in Ultimate, this piece is named "Ground Theme" despite interlacing the "Underground BGM" in the piece as well, so while more simplistic for the Music List it is not wholly accurate, and I do not think "Ground BGM" should be called "Princess Peach's Castle" in any context other than this Melee piece). So I think it is worth scrutinizing how we name pieces that are "misattributed." However, I do not support a blanket downground of first-party Nintendo games just because we do not like some of the names.
  3. Salmancer (talk) If I recall from Miiverse correctly, the reason many songs are not given official public names is that naming songs does require spending very valuable developmental bandwidth, something that not all projects have to spare. (Sometimes, certain major songs have names because of how important they are, while other songs don't.) Given this, I am okay with Smash Bros. essentially forcing names for songs out early because it's interface requires named songs. Names don't have to be good to be official. My line is "we all agree this uniquely identifies this subject and is official".
  4. Waluigi Time (talk) See my comment below.
  5. Tails777 (talk) Per Waluigi Time
  6. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.
  7. Koopa con Carne (talk) per Nintendo101 & Waluigi Time. Some scrutiny is warranted, but let's not entirely discredit Smash Bros--a series of games published and sometimes developed in first-party capacity--as a source of information.
  8. Axii (talk) Per all.
  9. ThePowerPlayer (talk) These are still the most recent official names. Let's not unnecessarily overcomplicate things.
  10. SeanWheeler (talk) If we've got a song from a crossover game, information from that crossover matters more than the non-Mario source.

Comments

I'm not sure if this is a necessary proposal, or what it's going to accomplish in practice that isn't already handled with current organization and policy. As far as I'm aware, the Yoshi's Island examples here are just the result of no editor taking the initiative to move those pages to the new titles yet. The Nintendo Music names are the most recent and I think also fall under tier 1 of source priority, technically, so the pages should have those names, end of story. We don't need a proposal to do that.

Additionally, "Yoshi's Island" and "Obstacle Course" do not refer to the original themes from Yoshi's Island - they're the names of specific arrangements of those themes from the Smash games. Maybe it's not cemented into policy, but our current approach for theme articles is to use a title referring to the original theme when available. Take "Inside the Castle Walls", for instance. There's been several different names given to arrangements of this track over the years, including "Peach's Castle", "A Bit of Peace and Quiet", and most recently in the remake of Thousand-Year Door, "A Letter from Princess Peach", but we haven't and most likely aren't going to move the page to any of those. (And that doesn't mean any of those games got it wrong for not calling it "Inside the Castle Walls". It's perfectly valid to give a different name to a new arrangement.)

Basically, I don't think this would be beneficial and could potentially cause headaches down the road. I can't think of any actual examples where we're stuck with a "worse" name from Smash based on everything else I've said here, especially with Nintendo Music being a new and growing resource for track titles in the context of the original games. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 14:17, November 4, 2024 (EST)

Indeed, Ground BGM already got moved to its Nintendo Music name, despite being called "Ground Theme" in Smash (among other sources). Nintendo Music should already take priority over Smash just for being more recent. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:29, November 4, 2024 (EST)
@biggestman I recommend skimming through our naming policies for some clarity. The only reason why "Yoshi's Island (theme)" has not been moved to "Flower Fields BGM" is because no editor took the initiative yet, and another one had already turned "Flower Fields BGM" into a redirect page. That must be deleted by an admin first before the page can be moved, but that is the only reason. Super Smash Bros. and Nintendo Music are at the same tier of coverage, and because Nintendo Music is the most recent use of the piece, it should be moved. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:50, November 4, 2024 (EST)

@LadySophie17: What do you make of Propeller Piranha, Fire Nipper Plant, Nipper Dandelion, etc., which are named based on what Viridi calls them in Smash? And more generally, why does Smash not being strictly a Mario game matter? It's still an official game from Nintendo that uses the Mario IP, and the Mario content in it is fully covered even if it's exclusive to Smash (e.g. Mario stages and special moves all get articles). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:29, November 4, 2024 (EST)

There's also the fact that Nintendo Music, which this proposal aims to prioritise, is not a Mario game either. It has a collection of music from various different franchises that just so happens to include Mario, much like Smash. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 08:10, November 5, 2024 (EST)

A lot of you have made good points, but one I don't understand or like is the one that those are the names of specifically the Super Smash Bros. versions, which is just painfully inconsistent. With very little exception remixes in Super Smash Bros. almost always use the original title in one of two ways, either using the name completely normally or by titling it (SONG NAME 1 HERE)/(SONG NAME 2 HERE) for remixes that are a relatively even split between two songs. Outside of this the only examples of "Well it COULD be the name of specifically the Smash version!!!" from every series represented are "Yoshi's Island", "Obstacle Course" and "Meta Knight's Revenge". Out of these Yoshi's Island and Obstacle Course theoretically COULD be original titles, but Meta Knight's Revenge is (probably) just meant to be named after Revenge of Meta Knight from Kirby Super Star, which is where both of the songs represented debuted, but was mistranslated. However I can't prove anything because none of these 3 Smash Bros. series remixes Japanese titles are anywhere online as far as I can tell so there's nothing to compare any of them to. There might also be examples from something like Fire Emblem or something idk I play primarily funny platformers. The point though is that if they were to name some remixes after the originals while making original titles for some it would just be so inconsistent I simply can't see a world where that's the intent. BiggestManMario dead in the arcade version of Donkey Kong 13:19, November 5, 2024 (EST)

I believe the Japanese name of the track was the same as the Japanese name of "Revenge of Meta Knight", but I maintain that translating it as "Meta Knight's Revenge" is not necessarily a mistake, the translators might have just thought that name was better suited for the theme specifically, especially since medleys in the Kirby series are often given different titles to the included themes ("Revenge of Meta Knight" is still not the title of either of the individual tracks included). For example, a different medley of the same two themes in Kirby's Dream Buffet is titled "Revenge of Steel Wings". Even if "Meta Knight's Revenge" is an error, though, that's one error in over a thousand track names, and one not even from the Mario franchise. One or two errors aren't enough to invalidate an entire source, especially one of this size. As for the Yoshi's Island tracks, as has already been pointed out, they should be changed anyway because Nintendo Music is the more recent source (Flower Field BGM already has been changed since this proposal was made). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:49, November 5, 2024 (EST)
FWIW, that point isn't meant to be an argument against this specific change anyway, it's "we already shouldn't be prioritizing those names for article titles regardless of the outcome of this proposal, and here's why". --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:13, November 5, 2024 (EST)

Ok so now that it's been a few days I have very quickly realised that I very much said a bad reason this change should be implemented. I just realised that all of these titles have already been moved but I have since realised a somewhat more understandable reason for it. If a new Smash game came out and reused these titles then according to our rules they would need to be moved back to those titles again, wouldn't they? Would it make sense to move Flower Fields BGM back to the less descriptive title just because a game reused a (debatably) worse title? Overall though I don't care too much about the result, even when I started this proposal, my impatience just got to me too early. BiggestManMario dead in the arcade version of Donkey Kong 11:09, November 7, 2024 (EST)

Yes, that's how recent name policy works. We should choose what name to use based on what the most recent official source says, not what we subjectively prefer. I personally feel like "Flower Field BGM" isn't much less generic than "Yoshi's Island". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:38, November 7, 2024 (EST)
Not a simple yes/no answer, actually. If they're just arrangements again, then no, we wouldn't move the pages. If they added the original tracks from the SNES version and used those names, then they would probably be moved. (However, you might still be able to make a decent argument for keeping the Nintendo Music names on a recency basis considering it's a live service?) --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:48, November 7, 2024 (EST)

I've actually been mulling over a proposal like this, but for names in general, not just themes. We generally don't consider out-of-franchise content as a source of a recent name if the original Super Mario franchise supersedes it; for example, Podoboo, which is still in use over Lava Bubble in The Legend of Zelda franchise. I don't see why the same thing can't be said for Super Smash Bros., especially now with its reduced coverage. For that matter, possibly breaking it down to a per-series basis (like how "Gold Goomba" was the most recent name in the Super Mario series despite being "Golden Goomba" in the most recent Mario Party)? It might not be a bad idea to establish a new rule over this. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)

Decide how to prioritize PAL English names

Prioritize NTSC names 6-4-0-0
As with my previous proposal, this one aims at getting a consistent method of how PAL names are used alongside NTSC names. One thing that I noticed is that the priority of some of these names are inconsistent, like Mini Bowser, which redirects to Koopa Kid rather than link to the name actually used in NTSC countries. Other pages, like Bowser Party, are disambiguations between the Mario Party 10 game mode and the Mario Party 7 event that is only known as "Bowser Party" in PAL regions.

This map shows which countries use these different systems. The terms go beyond just color conversion; in terms of English, the PAL system is used in countries like the United Kingdom (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think Australia and New Zealand too), while the NTSC system is used in North America, specifically in the United States and Canada. MarioWiki:Naming says that the North American name takes priority, which means that Mini Bowser would link to the toy and Bowser Party would redirect to the section in Mario Party 10, potentially among other pages, although tophats linking to pages with alternate PAL names will remain.

Therefore, I am proposing four options:

  • NTSC>PAL, in which when linking pages, the page with the name in NTSC English or all-English takes priority over other pages sharing the same PAL name, even if it isn't as significant. If another page with the same name in PAL English exists, it can be linked to in the tophat.
  • NTSC=PAL, in which pages that share the same name in both NTSC and PAL English appear in a disambiguation page regardless of whether the name is used in NTSC English multiple times or not. This is already done with Bowser Party.
  • NTSC<PAL, in which pages that share the same name in PAL English have the highest priority name linked to it, even if it doesn't have that name in NTSC English but the other pages does, in which case it will redirect to the higher-priority PAL name and the lower-priority NTSC (or all-English) page will be linked to in the tophat in the Redirect template. This has been done with Mini Bowser.
  • Do nothing - do I even have to explain this?

Proposer: Altendo (talk)
Deadline: November 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT

NTSC>PAL

  1. Altendo (talk) I think that abiding by SMW:NAMING is the best option. Yes, Koopa Kid is more notable than Mini Bowser toys, but if this is an American English wiki, might as well make pages link to the one that actually are named like that in NTSC.
  2. Mari0fan100 (talk) I've seen courses and vehicles in Mario Kart Wii that have names that differ between the NTSC and PAL versions. If the articles to those courses and vehicles use the NTSC version, shouldn't other things use the NTSC version as well?
  3. YoYo (talk) This would have to expand into other games too, like Mario Kart. Now, there are entire courses in Mario Kart with different names between PAL and NTSC, like Cheep Cheep Cape, Wario's Galleon, Piranha Plant Pipeway and DK's Snowboard Cross. How would one make there be no priority here? One would have to occupy the article name, an article cannot have two names. That, by default, means making both equal priority is impossible. - YoYo Yoshi Head (light blue) from Mario Kart: Super Circuit (Talk) 13:19, November 12, 2024 (EST)
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) We're a primarily American English wiki, and use American English in the actual article bodies (e.g. we use spellings like "color" over "colour", we use terms like "flashlight" over "torch", etc. etc.), so it only makes sense to prioritize American English releases for these too.
  5. ThePowerPlayer (talk) If we prioritize American English for the article names and the article content, it makes logical sense to also do so for links and redirects.
  6. MeritC (talk) Although this is an international wiki with English as the primary language, this was primarily founded by the proprietor who apparently resides in the U.S. in which the NTSC names of Super Mario and related franchise materials are used. IMHO, it's best to stick with this kind of naming as the primary (while other naming versions can still be mentioned in certain portions of respective articles too).

NTSC=PAL

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) I think this is the best solution — completely deprioritizing the PAL names doesn't quite seem right to me.
  2. Jdtendo (talk) This is an international wiki, not an American wiki. Whilst prioritizing NTSC names for naming makes kinda sense (an article can only have one title), there's no need to prioritize a specific region when it comes to linking.
  3. Biggestman (talk) Per all. This is not an american wiki.
  4. EvieMaybe (talk) we dont need to relegate PAL names to a footnote

NTSC<PAL

Do nothing

Comments

can i ask for some more examples? i'm having a bit of trouble fully grasping what you mean EvieMaybe (talk) 20:11, November 4, 2024 (EST)

The Mini Bowser situation, for instance:
  • NTSC>PAL: Mini Bowser would link to the page actually named "Mini Bowser" instead of Koopa Kid (who is known as Mini Bowser in PAL English)
  • NTSC=PAL: Mini Bowser would be a disambiguation page between Koopa Kid and the Mini Bowser toy
  • NTSC{{<}}PAL: Mini Bowser would continue to redirect to Koopa Kid.
  • Do nothing: Nothing changes.
Hope this makes more sense. Altendo 21:07, November 4, 2024 (EST)
So in the first option, "Mini Bowser (toy)" would lose its identifier? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:19, November 5, 2024 (EST)
Basically. The tophat will say, "This article is about the toy. For the characters known as "Mini Bowsers" in Europe, as Koopa Kid." I prefer abiding by SMW:NAMING by prioritizing NTSC names over PAL names. Basically, the current Mini Bowser (toy) page will be moved to Mini Bowser, which will no longer redirect to Koopa Kid. For people who have only owned NTSC copies, this is more straightforward, as many would be unaware that Koopa Kid is known as Mini Bowser without having a PAL copy. As for Bowser Party, if Option 1 passes, it will redirect to the section in Mario Party 10, with a tophat leading to Bowser Time. If Option 2 passes, Mini Bowser would become a disambiguation page between Koopa Kid and Mini Bowser (toy). If Option 3 passes, Bowser Party would redirect to Bowser Time and would have a tophat leading to the Mario Party 10 section. If Option 4 passes, well... nothing changes, making everything remain inconsistent.
So, to answer your question, yes, the identifier will be removed. The only other page with the exact same name minus the identifier is simply the redirect to Koopa Kid, who is only known as "Mini Bowser" in European English, and SMW:NAMING prioritizes American English names. Altendo 07:15, November 5, 2024 (EST)
Now that I think about it, couldn't the identifier for the Mini Bowser toy be removed anyway? There's no actual article named Mini Bowser. For that matter, I thought it was discouraged to use the terms NTSC and PAL now in regards to English, especially now that region-locking is mostly a thing of the past. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:24, November 8, 2024 (EST)
I'm pretty sure whether the identifier can be removed for that reason is what this proposal is trying to decide. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:06, November 9, 2024 (EST)
Hewer: Not necessarily just that - it's to decide if NTSC or PAL names should take priority when linking to a page that might have the same name in a different coded region. If Option 1 passes, it doesn't matter if a page with the same PAL name as another page with an NTSC name is more prominent; if that name isn't used in NTSC, then the page with the actual NTSC name takes priority, and the page with the PAL name is linked to with a tophat (take my Koopa Kid and Bowser Party examples above for instance). SMW:NAMING says, and quote:
  • "The Super Mario Wiki is an English language wiki, so the name of an article should correspond to the most commonly used English name of the subject, which, given our user and visitor demographics, means the North American name. For example, the North American title of "Mario Strikers Charged" takes precedence over the PAL region's "Mario Strikers Charged Football" title."
If this is true for naming, why isn't it true for linking, specifically and especially for subjects in which they are the only ones with a specific name in NTSC? I don't have a problem with mentioning other English games in the top of a page, but I feel like linking to a page that is either a disambiguation page between a mode named "Bowser Party" in all regions and a gimmick only named "Bowser Party!" in PAL and as "Bowser Time!" in NTSC, as well as "Mini Bowser" linking to Koopa Kid over the actual toy even though only the latter is used in NTSC, would make extra steps for people who type it in the URL or even wiki search expecting to see the term only used in NTSC regions. Linking to these pages will also be easier, as, take the Mini Bowser case for instance, they don't have to use the identifier, which not only removes identifier space, but also visible text space. If multiple names continue to share the same NTSC name, then the most prominent one will continue to have no identifier, and if there is no dominance, then a disambiguation page will remain. For example, the Mini Mario form continues to be used because it is more prominent than the toy, and even then, the toy's name is slightly different, and both names are used in NTSC English. I understand that some people are from PAL countries and have PAL-configured systems, but seeing as this is an NTSC English wiki, and according to the quote above, how the majority of the views are from NTSC countries, whether from IPs or registered users, I feel like NTSC names should take priority over PAL names, even if the subject itself has a lower priority. I would rather give extra steps to PAL names than to NTSC names due to the fact that NTSC English viewers are more prominent and therefore would see "Mini Bowser" as the toy rather than Koopa Kid. Priority should be given to the most prominent visitor group, so the names that appear in the version shown to the majority of these visitors should be linked there instead of a more prominent character with the same name mainly used by a less prominent group.
LinkTheLefty: Except for Nintendo Switch consoles sold in Mainland China, region-locking does not exist on the Switch, and the region is not actually set based on where the console is purchased - instead, it is configured during setup, and can be changed at anytime, unless a Nintendo Account is connected, in which case, the region for each game is set to the region the Nintendo Account is based in (it doesn't have to be based in the country of setup, it can be based in any country as long as the user has an applicable credit card using the same currency as the Nintendo eShop) per each user that plays it. Game Cards also don't have region locking (IDK if this is true for those purchased in Mainland China), and also use settings based on either system region or Nintendo Account region, not based on where the game was bought in (exceptions are likely made for region-exclusive games, for which I have none, so I cannot test this out). This does mean that setting up PAL English in NTSC regions is possible, and vice versa, but due to the fact that most people only have credit cards for currencies of their home country, it is almost always that their Nintendo Account (and therefore their game region) is set in their home country, meaning that the majority of people who view this wiki, which are Americans, have their region set to the United States, and therefore play NTSC versions of their games regardless of where the console or games were purchased. Altendo 23:49, November 9, 2024 (EST)

@YoYo: I think you may have misunderstood the proposal (which I don't blame you for, it's a bit confusing). It's about what names get priority in terms of identifiers and redirects in cases of different things sharing a name, not which name gets priority as the article title. None of those Mario Kart courses share their names with any other thing, and their titles will continue to prioritise the American name regardless of this proposal's outcome. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:40, November 13, 2024 (EST)

Retrieved from "https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/71&oldid=4437951"