Talk:Yoshi's Island (location)

Under protectors it states Baby Mario/Luigi and Mairo and Luigi. Shouldn't we delete one of those (probably the baby ones, since their real names are Mario and Luigi, not Baby Mario and Baby Luigi), seeing as they are the same thing? --Bentendo 12:41, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

It's correct they are the same, but in the game Partners in Time they saved the land as well as Mario and Luigi. So the four of them saved Yoshi's Island, at the same time. Paper Jorge (Talk·Contribs)

Congratulations

Now the pictures of the other Yoshi's Island stages are deleted. Credit goes to Knife (talk). Now how to get them back? It is not possible to restore them. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 04:50, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

Don't blame Knife. How would you liked to be insulted like that. I can get them back, don't worry. My Bloody Valentine

I'm just a bit upset now. Why where the images removed from the article anyway? They would have been needed with the infobox, too. And I also don't like it that unused images have to be removed the instant they are no longer used. We should somehow wait at least a single day before deleting them. Sorry Knife. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 04:55, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

That's a great idea, I'll put it on Talk:Main Page. Thanks for the idea, hopefully Images won't be deleted that quickly anymore. Also, I already re-uploaded the Images, so don't worry. Cobold, just so you know, don't insult other Users. My Bloody Valentine

Was it an insult? I guess it can be considered one. I'm very sorry if it was. Thanks for re-uploading. About the main page, I've already done that. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 05:01, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

I know. Lol. BTW, to me, an insult is anything that is purposely offensive to someone. As for the Images, no problem. Another thing, I hardly think adding 200 letters to a page is a Minor Edit :P My Bloody Valentine

SMW picture

There's something wrong with the picture from Super Mario World. It has water in the wrong place. And the water is the wrong color. It's covering the front of the island. Did someone change the picture, or what happened? There should be a picture of how the island really looks in that game.Orangeyoshi

And by the way, I'm going to add a bit more to the Super Mario World section. (Wait, I geuss I don't really need to say that.)Orangeyoshi 20:13, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Lavalava Island

Hey, I posted this on the Lavalava Island discussion, but no one ever goes there, and it is relevant here too. So, heres a copy of what I posted:

I've completed Paper Mario and Yoshi's Island, and I've noticed Lavalava Island and Yoshi's Island appear to be one and the same. The first clue was Yoshi's village, that was on Yoshi's Island in Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time. Secondly, what about Raphael the Raven? In Yoshi's Island, he was native to Yoshi's Island, but in Paper Mario he appears in Jade Jungle on Lavalava Island. I suppose he could have flown from one island to the other, but I doubt that. There are loads more similarities between the two Islands, they are both tropical, they are both volcanic, they both have dense jungle and most importantly it was stated in Paper Mario that Lavalava Island was where all Yoshis live, but Yoshi's Island (DS version I think) stated that Yoshi's Island was where all Yoshis live. Obviously all yoshis can't live in two places!

So could they both be the same island?

-Scruffy

I think it is nessecary to put this on the Yoshi's Island Page. Plus, on the Yoshi's Village page, it states Yoshi's village is on Lavalava Island, but in Mario & Luigi Partners in time, it is quite obviously on Yoshi's Island. I'm gonna post this on the Yoshi's village discussion as well. -Scruffy

Nintendo has problems with consistency. Generic statements like "this is the home of all Yoshis" don't hold much water when it's been made clear that Yoshis are found all over the Mushroom World. There may also be multiple villages on the multiple islands, and characters often turn up all over the place (i.e. Yoshi seems to live on both Yoshi's Island and the vastly different Yo'ster Isle). Long story short, it's best to avoid speculation and just assume they're different places for now. Similarities could be noted in the Trivia sections, but that's all that can be said. - Walkazo 10:08, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Split into Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World 2) and Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World)

In Japan, Yoshi's Island is two different places: Yoster Island and Yoshi Island. You could say that, after Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, Super Mario World's Yoster Island was renamed Yoshi Island and completely redesigned, but Yoster Island appears again in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time as it was in Super Mario World. So, apparently, Yoshi lives (well, lived until he moved to the Sky Station Galaxy) on Yoster Island while the Green Yoshi that saved Baby Mario lives on Yoshi Island. Should we split this article in two, as it's two different places ? Koopalmier 01:03, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Species

Does someone mind filling in the species from SMW2: YI and YIDS? I am too busy to finish it.

Paper Baby Luigi 05:37, 4 July 2011 (EDT)

I removed the SMW2 and YIDS species because if we added that in, it's basically listing all the enemies in those games. I just made links to the articles which list the games' (and Yoshi's Island's) enemies instead. Look here: (SMW2: YI; YIDS) Mario JC

M&L: Partners in Time

Can I get confirmation of the inhabitants of this island? It doesn't seem like their are any Yoshis here. If there are, can we add this?Paper Baby Luigi 14:43, 4 July 2011 (EDT)

Their are Yoshis there but if recall they were eaten by Yoob Goomba's Shoe15 (talk)

Yos'ter Island

It stats in this website http://www.smbhq.com/who.htm that Yos'ter Island is Yoshi's summer home and NOT the actual Yoshi's Island. Should that be included somewhere in the article? Tails777 Talk to me!

No i don't think that website is official Raven Effect (talk)

Is World 6 in Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island in a different place?

In this page World 6 (Koopa Kingdom) of Yoshi's Island is reported, but from the title screen, the text and the small cutscene before entering it seems to be in a different place than Yoshi's Island. I would like to know if this is actually true or if I just misinterpreted what the game said about the last world.

Split into Yoshi's Island (Mario franchise) and Yoshi's Island (Yoshi franchise)

So this article is effectively talking about two fairly distinct locations muddled by localization. One is the small, tropical, and squarish "Yo'ster Island" that appears in Super Mario World, Super Mario RPG, and Partners in Time. It is generally depicted with some polyhedral brown mountains covered in grass in the back and full of plants bearing those fruit Yoshi eats. The other is the sprawling, multi-biomed, rounded "Yoshi Island" that appears in the Yoshi's Island series proper, Yoshi's Story, Mario Golf, and Fortune Street. This one consistently has a cluster of domed blue mountains covered in snow in the center and seems to have more rainbows than fruit. Both these differences are especially visible in the mash Bros. games. Despite both being "the home of the Yoshis," the same is said about Lavalava Island, Yoshi's Tropical Island, and even Yoshi Desert, so it's not like that's ever been too consistent either. I think these should be split for clarity. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:49, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

I honestly don't think Mario Golf supports your argument - while the giant fruits are an obvious nod to Yoshi's Story, it is a tropical area with no sign of those blue snow-capped mountains. Additionally, while the huts in the Partners in Time incarnation seem to be inspired by Yoshi's House, there are also a lot of Yoshi franchise references there: the SMW2 title screen music in the village area, the Yoshi egg-patterned door at the summit, Kamek's involvement (and him outright calling back to the events of SMW2), Chomp Rocks appearing in Yoob's Belly, and just the fact that it's a Yoshi-themed area in a game where the baby bros. are main characters. There's a notable divide between the Rare and Retro Studios versions of Donkey Kong Island, and we don't split that. 19:24, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

I'd disagree here, as Donkey Kong Island has been depicted pretty consistently as having intended to be the same place despite a layout difference, while two separate locations (SMW's Yoster Island and the Yoshi series' Yoshi Island) have been both depicted multiple times in different games with very little to confirm the two as the same other than a shared name in the English localization. BubbleRevolution (talk) 12:26, December 12, 2021 (EST)

Honestly this seems pretty arbitrary considering just about every recurring location in the series has inconsistent portrayal. I don't think this would help readers at all. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:32, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

There's more consistent differences here than what the latter had with Lavalava Island. As for the golf thing, considering they're Yoshi's Story fruit and not SMW's generic berries (which is what I was referring to), I don't think that makes much of a difference, and as for the mountains, I wouldn't judge skyboxes alongside full-island panoramas. As for PiT, it also heavily featured Yoshi Cookies, which aren't particularly associated to either (barring SMRPG using them for bets), so I think that segment was more an extended reference to entities from Yoshis' various appearances, such as the cookies, Kamek/Baby Bowser, and Chomp Rocks (which technically also appear solely inside Yoob, which itself could be argued is an ersatz Prince Froggy callback). As for DK Island, English is the language-of-origin for both and they didn't give it a different name (and most of the worlds themselves are strikingly similar). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:50, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

While there's the possibility that Yoster Island (whose Japanese name, as noted by 2257, might also be a callback to Sutāto, "start") was intended to be different from Yoshi Island, the two have long lost the distinction, especially after Super Mario RPG. The Partners in Time rendition of Yoster Island wasn't afraid of containing plenty of references to Yoshi's Island, and when looking at the rest we mainly saw either the Yoshi Island or references to Yoshi's Story. Super Mario Odyssey only contained references to Yoshi's House and it doesn't look like a completely separate Yoster Island is coming back any time soon.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:27, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

Seems more likely an Easter Island pun to me. Anyways, that argument could also be used to merge Lavalava Island, which I would oppose. Anyways, regarding PiT, the island itself, as in, the geological formation jutting from the water, is a dead ringer for the SMW one yet looks nothing like the SMW2 one. References to other things associated with the inhabitants are not the same as being the same, as otherwise Lavalava would definitely be the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:35, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

I wouldn't call Yoshi's Island in PiT a dead ringer for the SMW one; it definitely resembles it more than the SMW2 one with it's big mountain peak in the middle, but the island's general structure is different. The SMRPG location on the map doesn't resemble either, and the golf course is only tied to the Yoshi franchise by it's name and the YS fruit scenery (which might be why World Tour remade it as a Sparkling Waters-themed course). Those blue-domed mountains aren't all that different from what you see in the background of Yoshi's House and Yoshi's Island 1, just with snow on top and minus the spots. Between all that, the existence of areas like Yoshi Park (a Story-themed area with a Yoshi's House effigy in its scenery), and the the various incarnations of Yoshi's Island not fitting as neatly and consistently into two separate categories as you claim they do, I can't help but see this split suggestion as name-centric. I certainly don't think it would benefit casual readers; if anything, it would be a nuisance to them, with a seemingly arbitrary split between different incarnations of the island when we don't treat any other major recurring locations like that. You can't say that about Lavalava Island, which is a one-off location that both Japanese and English treat as distinct. 01:14, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

We also need to put things into context: a few developers who worked on Super Mario RPG, including the directors, went to work at AlphaDream. The use of the Yoster Island name again might be simply due to the designers and developers being in part the same. In any case I don't see any reason to split that doesn't go into speculation territory - the name isn't enough for a split, and the places are way too inconsistent between renditions, both the ones referred to as Yoster Island and those referred to as Yoshi Island.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:35, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

I'll probably have a more solid argument once I'm able to be online regularly again in a few days, but for now I should point out that Super Mario RPG is the only one that uses the name "Yoster Isle" while Super Mario World and Partners in Time simply use "Yoshi's Island" like in the Yoshi series. I'm not sure about the Japanese names between the franchises, but I agree with Waluigi Time that this is a bit arbitrary and from an organisational point of view works fine as it is. Nightwicked Bowser 18:46, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

I didn't expect a lot of support on this, so I'm fine with putting a pin on this discussion. However, one last thing I want to point out is that the Melee and Brawl stages are the only stage's in Ultimate's English translation to have the exact same name as each other, while Super Happy Tree got a rename. This can be interpreted in a variety of ways, though since the JP one kept the original names of all but the 64 one, I'm inclined to believe that means they're intended as different there too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:53, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

I always thought of it as the developers just picking and choosing whichever name they liked more as they went, kind of like what happened to most of the big enemies. There'd be a better case if they ever appeared together at the same time, but like you said, the one time this almost happened led to one of them getting renamed in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Maybe, if the games aren't going to do this, there's some manga story arc that has both of them in it? LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:59, October 19, 2021 (EDT)

I mean both Melee's "SMW" Yoshi's Island and Brawl's "SMW2" Yoshi's Island both appear with names intact in all languages. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:48, October 19, 2021 (EDT)

You're right, I misread that part. That means this actually happened three times so far by my count, the first time being in Melee where Super Happy Tree was still known as Yoshi's Island (though technically, it was "Past Stages: Yoshi's Island"). The use of the identifier "Yoshi's Island (Melee)" isn't totally unique to that stage since it looks like some stages in other translations use identifiers, since the Spanish name for Princess Peach's Castle is "Castillo de Peach (Melee)". I guess this begs the question: since this is Super Smash Bros. we're talking about, do you think it's possible they're just using those names to represent the originating games and that this isn't meant to be taken literally? For example, Japanese Brawl also used 「カニさん」 (Kani-san) as the name of Sidestepper's Famicom-art sticker when its arcade-sprite-based trophy prioritized its arcade name (which, now that I think about it, Freezie being an established Melee item is probably the sole reason it didn't revert back to Slipice), and Ultimate refers to a piece of old-style Donkey Kong artwork as "Donkey Kong & Lady" instead of Donkey Kong & Pauline. LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:41, October 20, 2021 (EDT)

I would definitely put my money on them just being faithful to the source material over them trying to assert that "Yo'ster Isle" is a distinct entity. 19:07, October 20, 2021 (EDT)

I glanced a handful of Japanese sites to see what they had to say on the matter. At least one of them claims that Yo'ster Isle is the present-day name of Yossy Island (as Yoshi's Island was set in the past), but it looks like an unsourced fan-theory so my brief search was inconclusive. I decided to work off a hunch and checked the early Japanese text in the proto builds, hoping to find a sign of 「ヨースター島」 (Yo'ster Isle) in the original story as it didn't make too much sense to me that a game that's supposed to be Super Mario Bros. 5 / Super Mario World 2 took place in an entirely unrelated location. What I found was almost as interesting: the game's location, named 「ヨッシーアイランド」 (Yossy/Yoshi Island) in the final version, was 「ヨッシーズアイランド」 (Yossy's/Yoshi's Island) in the early script. The takeaway is that the game's (main) title was decided before the location name was finalized, and the early Japanese name is seemingly based on the English localization of Super Mario World. I'm not sure it's a complete coincidence, given that this wouldn't be the only time something similar happened. As for why use a different name in the first place, I have one idea: this interview says that "Yoshi's universe" is supposed to be distinct from the Mushroom Kingdom. It could be that Yo'ster Isle->Yoshi's Island->Yoshi Island was an early attempt at distancing from pre-established settings when the game's original Japanese subtitle was shortened, but the English localization simply didn't see a need to do the same thing at the time since it kept the subtitle connection. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:17, October 23, 2021 (EDT)

So does this mean these are not distinct locations after all? Nightwicked Bowser 11:24, October 23, 2021 (EDT)

That's one way to look at it, but I could be missing an obscure interview that confirms or denies it fully. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:29, October 23, 2021 (EDT)

Well, I stumbled upon a recent interview in a very unlikely place: Toby Fox on DELTARUNE Chapter 1&2 of all things. He jokingly says the following: "Now that I’ve finally finished it, I feel… exhausted. I want a break. Hey, can you pass a request on to Mario for me? Ask him to take me to Yoshi’s Island. I want to have some of that green fruit that increases your time limit. If I had some for breakfast, I could have 27 hours in the day and sleep in." I've stressed the key parts in bold. See, the interview was originally published in Japanese by Nintendo themselves. The Japanese transcript of the interview specifically uses the term 「ヨッシーアイランド」 (Yossy/Yoshi Island), which is how it's called in the Japanese version of Yoshi's Island - however, in context, the green fruit he's referring to is the green berry from Super Mario World, which uses the name 「ヨースター島」 (Yo'ster Isle) instead. Presuming that Fox was probably speaking in English and an interpreter was helping to translate into Japanese for the interview, this might be another indication that Nintendo of Japan doesn't seem to particularly care to distinguish between the two. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:55, November 29, 2021 (EST)

Late response, but I actually agree and was planning to propose this myself. Considering "Yoster Island" has shown up in multiple games AFTER the introduction of Yoshi's Island in the Yoshi series (Mario RPG, Partners in Time), it's pretty clear to me that they're intended to be different locations. I'd say split 'em. BubbleRevolution (talk) 12:17, December 12, 2021 (EST)

I'd be for a split. -- FanOfYoshi 12:44, December 12, 2021 (EST)

What about other major recurring locations with different Japanese names, like Peach's Castle, for instance? 19:05, December 12, 2021 (EST)

Peach's Castle is a different case, as it serves as Peach's home and the seat of power in the Mushroom Kingdom, making it pretty clear they're intended to be the same location regardless of naming. The two islands on the other hand, are very clearly not supposed to be the same location, given the presence of "Yoster Island" in several games long after the introduction of "Yoshi Island". Every single Japanese source I could find treats them as two separate locations, and the only thing really linking the two is the English localized name and the presence of Yoshis. It's pretty obvious to me that they're supposed to be two separate locations; "Yoster Island" is the Super Mario World location that's part of Dinosaur Land, and "Yoshi Island" is the much larger pastel-colored island that appears in the Yoshi series. They look totally different, have different names in the series' language of origin, and have both intermittently appeared throughout the various games in the franchise with one name tied to one look and another name tied to another look. Going off that, I personally don't see any way the two can be conflated as being the same place aside from fan speculation, which we tend to avoid here. BubbleRevolution (talk) 01:26, December 13, 2021 (EST)

"Every single Japanese source I could find treats them as two separate locations" - can you elaborate a bit more? As mentioned before, my brief search was inconclusive, so I think there needs to be more evidence. Also, it was part of the Mushroom Kingdom in Partners in Time, so geography isn't consistent in that regard. Additionally, according to SmashWiki and the Super Smash Bros. stage articles, the current name is shared in every language except for Japanese and Korean. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:06, December 13, 2021 (EST)

I looked around on various websites cataloguing information from the Mario series, as there isn't a ton of official information on it, though obviously these aren't official sources. I did some digging around in what little official info there is as well (guidebooks, manga, other games, etc.), and would have gone into more detail, but in the process of dredging up that info I believe I've found the smoking gun that definitively shows that Nintendo treats them as two separate places: Yoshi's trophy description in the Japanese version of Super Smash Bros. 4.

"ヨースター島やヨッシーアイランドに生息する、マリオたちの冒険を助ける心強いパートナー" translates to something akin to "A dependable partner who assists Mario on his adventures on Yoster Island and Yoshi Island", which seems to indicate that yes, the two are supposed to be separate locations despite the shared English name. BubbleRevolution (talk) 18:44, December 13, 2021 (EST)

That's the kind of thing I was looking for. For reference, the Melee trophy doesn't mention either island by name and the Brawl trophy specifies the one from Yoshi's Island. Since both stages don't appear together in for Nintendo 3DS and for Wii U, they could have just changed the text to reflect the version that's in each game, but they didn't and suggest a second island. I'm convinced to support a split. The part I'm not sure about is identifiers: Mario Golf is considered part of the Mario franchise, yet it has the island from the Yoshi franchise, making it somewhat of a misnomer. So I have another idea here: why not use "Yo’ster Isle" from Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars for the Super Mario World (etc.) article, and keep "Yoshi's Island (location)" for the Yoshi's Island (etc.) article? After all, the latter is far more common as a setting, and the former is still sort of acknowledged on occasion. Sure, it's not the most recent name, but as it should mitigate some confusion, I'm for invoking source priority exception in this case. Thoughts? (Also, I'm not sure it was ever stated which island is supposed to be the one in Crafted World.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:46, December 14, 2021 (EST)

I feel using "Yo'ster Isle" is a bit off since it's only been used in a single game, and most of its other, more notable appearances use the "Yoshi's Island" name. The source priority exception seems to have mostly been used for enemies only named in player's guides, but considering that the Super Mario World level appears with that name in a game multiple times and is known by that name to pretty much anyone (outside of Japan and Korea) who's familiar with the games it appears in, I feel using the Yo'ster Isle name would be a bad idea in this case. I think the distinction between the Mario and Yoshi franchises works, because even if the location shows up in some Mario games like Mario Golf, it's still primarily known for appearing in the Yoshi series and first appeared there. We could also do something like Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World) and Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) or something (maybe Yoshi's Island (Dinosaur Land)?), but it feels a tad clunky IMO. BubbleRevolution (talk) 12:53, December 14, 2021 (EST)

How do you plan on handling the Partners in Time version, which uses the Yo'ster Isle name in Japanese but is otherwise more inspired by the Yoshi franchise? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:48, December 14, 2021 (EST)

Its blocky mountains, small size, and tree buildings are all SMW-based, most of the Yoshi references are to the pre-SMW2 puzzle games, and the sole actual SMW2 reference I can think of (Chomp Rock) is found in Yoob's Belly and is an object, not a geographical feature. It seems clear-cut to me. Bowser Jr. and Kamek don't count, as the former is already a major character in PiT and in Japanese, no distinction is made between Kamek and Magikoopas in general, and his sprite in that game looks more like the SMW one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:14, December 14, 2021 (EST)

The music theme of the village on that island is clearly that of the title screen of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, and there are indeed colored Yoshis living in said village beyond the four colors of Super Mario World, in particular the pink and light blue one, although in Yoob's belly you can even see the white and black ones from Yoshi's Story.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:50, December 14, 2021 (EST)

It's clearly references to the Yoshi series due to the prevalence of Yoshis on the island, but if it's called "Yoster Island", it's clearly intended to be the location from Super Mario World. BubbleRevolution (talk) 23:31, December 14, 2021 (EST)

I just want to say that I'm still unsure if we should go through with this. Nightwicked Bowser 20:52, December 14, 2021 (EST)

There's also the very SMW2-esque egg-patterned door at the top of the mountain I mentioned earlier. Your attempt to distance Kamek's PiT appearance from his SMW2 appearance is completely cratered by the fact that he literally calls back to his role in SMW2. We should also take any evidence from Smash with a grain of salt, since it has gotten things wrong before, like calling Wario: Master of Disguise a Wario Land game and calling Kaptain K. Rool "K. Rool's brother". 21:06, December 14, 2021 (EST)

I would argue that the reputation of Super Smash Bros. trophies has been grossly exaggerated and is mostly a result of questionable translation choices/miscommunication, which this doesn't fall under. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:20, December 14, 2021 (EST)

Discounting the possibility of a mistake sounds arbitrary to me. It's not like you were there when that trophy description was written. We don't know what the writing process was like. I know some trophy goofs are mistranslations (the "Daisy was in Mario Golf" one, for instance), but that doesn't mean all of them are. 21:31, December 14, 2021 (EST)

This doesn't fall under that (meaning most localization circumstances) simply because there is just no room for it to be a product of mistranslation, unlike the K. Rool example describing an overseas character with a language barrier. Chill. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:43, December 14, 2021 (EST)

OK, you're clearly responding to the poorly-worded version of my previous comment that I changed before you responded. That's going to confuse anyone who didn't see it. 22:13, December 14, 2021 (EST)

I think the fact that they're two locations with wholly separate Japanese names, have both appeared in different games with both clearly having distinct features to them, and are furthermore referred to in the same game in Japanese as being two different places makes it pretty clear it's not a mistranslation and that they're intended to be separate islands. BubbleRevolution (talk) 23:31, December 14, 2021 (EST)

Digression, but how is calling Master of Disguise a Wario Land game a "mistake?" It seems an easy connection to make IMO. (I'd also like to point out how much we've garnered from the Piranha Plant Smash thing, which barring a specific generic citogenesis thing in the localization has been considered wholly reliable.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:33, December 14, 2021 (EST)

It's possible that Cannoli was referred to as being a Wario Land character due to Ultimate only specifying if a Wario spirit came from the Ware or Land subseries. For Cannoli, they would've had to make a separate category for just Wario in general or Master of Disguise specifically. Now I'm curious what they would've done if there was a Wario World spirit... Yo'ster (talk) 22:46, January 23, 2023 (EST)

@BubbleRevolution: I never said it was a mistranslation. Language-of-origin text obviously can't be a mistranslation since it's not a translation at all. My point was that mistranslations are not the only possible cause of errors in a game's text. There's no way I can prove it's a mistake, of course, but I wasn't trying to completely discredit it to begin with. I just don't think we should take it as the ultimate case-making proof you sold it as.

@Doc von Schmeltwick: "Easy connection to make" proves nothing. Nothing about Wario: Master of Disguise ties it to the Wario Land series other than the generic Wario franchise stuff like greed and treasure. Vague thematic similarities do not automatically make it part of the series. Wario: Master of Disguise isn't a Wario Land game any more than Donkey Kong Jungle Beat is a Donkey Kong Country game. About the Piranha Plant thing, I don't remember anyone questioning it's validity (it was a long discussion I don't think I took part in, so I'm fuzzy on the exact details), and I'm not about to do so, but we haven't treated it like the gospel either. Otherwise, we would have merged Frost Piranha with Ice Piranha Plant already. 01:25, December 15, 2021 (EST)

The point I'm making is that there's far more evidence they're separate locations than there is that they're intended to be the same place. Separate Japanese names, separate looks, referred to as two different places; the only thing really linking the two as potentially being the same location is the shared English name. Let me put it this way: If the Super Mario World location was still called "Yoster Island" in English, would you still think they should share a single page? BubbleRevolution (talk) 13:58, December 15, 2021 (EST)

Just as an aside, how exactly does Kamek calling back to his Yoshi's Island role in Partners in Time "crater" anything in any way? Kamek/Magikoopa also clearly calls back to his Yoshi's Island role in Super Mario RPG, and the island in that game is supposed to be the Super Mario World one. It's not like any other recurring character has to be an eternal extension of their original game and its setting (nevermind that World 6: Koopa Kingdom is ostensibly elsewhere). Now, if the game's group of Yoshis had the callback instead, that'd be a different discussion, since there's no indication in the story that they've traveled. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:48, March 4, 2022 (EST)

I've been following this thread for a while and was wondering if there are any updates or if anyone has started the process to open an official discussion on separating the articles. Seems like a mistake to me that they're still combined. Also, if you want my input, I'd suggest the titles should be "Yoshi's Island (Super Mario World)" and "Yoshi's Island (Yoshi franchise)" since both islands have appeared in the Mario franchise, but ヨースター島 has yet to appear in the Yoshi franchise (and probably won't). ヨッシーアイランド is also heavily associated with the Yoshi series and is the setting of basically every game. Yo'ster (talk) 10:00, January 12, 2023 (EST)

While I'm still unsure about this, the Super Mario World identifier wouldn't work well since it would also apply to Super Mario RPG and Partners in Time. Nightwicked Bowser 10:22, January 12, 2023 (EST)

The idea is that Super Mario World is the game it debuted in and its subsequent appearances are referencing its original appearance. I guess "(Mario franchise)" could work too, the only issue I have is that it'd imply that every location called Yoshi's Island in a Mario-related game is ヨースター島 which isn't the case (as seen in Mario Golf, Fortune Street, etc.) Anyway, I'm assuming this Wiki is similar to others in that there is some sort of process where major changes are brought to the leadership and editors vote on them, so perhaps someone should do that with this. Yo'ster (talk) 19:40, January 12, 2023 (EST)

Making a new thread here. I've compiled a list of points both for and against the split. Let me know if I'm missing anything.
For:

• They have different names in Japanese: ヨースター島 vs. ヨッシーアイランド. Aside from the Yoster/Yoshi difference, they also don't use the same word for "island" in Japanese.
• Yoshi's 3DS/Wii U trophy descriptions mentions them as two different places.
• They are both in multiple Super Smash Bros. games as two separate stages with different names in Japanese.
• ヨースター島's design in Partners in Time is heavily based on SMW's with the tall cliffs, berries, smaller size, etc., seemingly indicating it's intended to be a separate location than the island from the Yoshi series, with its much larger size and many different biomes.
• No one would think they're the same place if they had different names in English.

Against:

• Partners in Time's ヨースター島 contains references to the Yoshi series, and thus Yoshi's Island. (Then again, so does Lavalava Island...)
• Other locations are either inconsistently named (Peach's Castle) or have inconsistent layouts (Donkey Kong Island).
• Smash games contain errors in their text even discounting mistranslations, the main one being that Brawl states Kaptain K. Rool is King K. Rool's brother in both English and Japanese, and Count Cannoli being listed as a Wario Land spirit in Ultimate. However, the non-mistranslation mistakes seem to be very rare, and I don't believe there are any in 3DS/Wii U.
  
• Their names in Smash could due to them trying to be true to the original names (like one of the Spirits being called Donkey Kong & Lady in Ultimate), though this doesn't make much sense as it would imply ヨースター島 was renamed to ヨッシーアイランド, which isn't the case when you consider ヨースター島 appeared/was mentioned after the debut of Yoshi's Island.

Obviously I'm strongly for the "For" side, but I'm open to any counter-arguments. Yo'ster (talk) 22:25, January 23, 2023 (EST)

Split the two Islands of Yoshi

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Monday, November 18, 2024, 08:57 GMT

So, as previously discussed above, there are actually two islands that, thanks to some serendipity in localization and naming, are both known as "Yoshi's Island" in English. We have them here haphazardly merged together, despite being no more similar to each other than either are to Lavalava Island, Yoshi's Tropical Island, Egg Island, or Craft Island, each of which has had a turn as "the" home of the Yoshis. The language-of-origin Japanese text for Yoshi's trophy in Smash 3DS/Wii U explicitly lists them as separate locations (not just names them, but lists them), so they are, for all intents and purposes, not the same place (and it's not like we don't already split a lot of things from "Yoshi's Island" anyway despite the shared name, but that's a separate issue). I was waiting to see what role the English-made movie would go with and what name it would have in the Japanese version, but since that ended up amounting to a 5-second cameo, we technically don't even know if it's any Yoshi's Island, though it seems safest to say it's based on SMW2 based on its design and limited look at its contents.

First, we have the "Yo'ster Island." It is a smallish island with cubic structures that appears in:

• Super Mario World
• Super Mario RPG
• Mario and the Incredible Rescue
• Super Smash Bros. Melee (SMW-based stage)
• Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time

Secondly, we have the "Yoshi Island." It is a much larger, colorful island with many biomes that appears in:

• Super Mario World 2
• Tetris Attack
• Yoshi's Story
• Super Smash Bros. series (basically every other Yoshi stage)
• Mario Golf
• Yoshi Topsy-Turvy
• Yoshi's Island DS
• Fortune Street series
• Yoshi's Crafted World
• Mario Kart 8 Deluxe DLC

Now, for a few preliminary rebuttals to common complaints about this:

• Yoshi's House is in both! - And it's also on Egg Island, in space, and near Peach's Castle, so that's not too consistent anyway. Besides, the original Yoshi's Island had 1 Yoshi's House, not the upwards of 20 that appeared in SMW2.
• What about DK Island? - DK Island's language-of-origin was always English, though admittedly "Kongo Bongo" (French) and the more recent "Jungle Kingdom" are outliers there. And while the size and shape of it have varied quite a bit, the actual contents (world themes especially) have remained near-static. Also, those differences have occurred within the same series and franchise, while here, we have a general Mario franchise island and a general Yoshi franchise island that occasionally crosses over.
• English wiki! - Been there, done that. People of different languages use this site too, I've seen the site mentioned on Japanese forums (in kana) that they use it too. We should look from a worldwide perspective, not an Anglocentric one.
• Our readers expect this! - This is a more recent and rather disturbing one. While it appeals to the reader base, the problem is most who use it have been regular editors for pretty much the entire time they've been on the site. I was a no-account-no-edit reader for near a decade before joining, and the merge here always bothered me even before I knew about the JP name thing, and most of the offsite people I've spoken with about these matters are more in-line with what I've said than what this alleged "this is what they expect" thing. And regardless, our job is not to cater to what these unheard masses are allegedly "expecting," but what the actual stated facts are. Ultimately, what it seems this boils down to is "I don't want it changed, even though the official word indicates it should, because it aligns with my headcanon/is easier for me/I just don't want it changed because [static noise]/THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" Addendum: I want to thank Somethingone below for the phrase "editorial inertia," I'll have to remember that one.
• This is simpler! Too much splitting makes it harder to find this. - And it would be even simpler to merge the Smash stages, playing boards, and race track here, but it seems no one wants to do that. You can't really split the same things without also splitting the different things, that's having your cake and eating it too and reads super awkward.
• Partners in Time's island had SMW2 music! - As did Lavalava Island, and it's not merged.

Addendum/clarification: As stated in the above section, the titles would be Yoshi's Island (Mario franchise) and Yoshi's Island (Yoshi franchise) due to that being the main divisor, occasional crossing over notwithstanding.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: May 1, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Yosh Yosh Woooooah Kururin-ha! (Per)
2. Somethingone (talk) Same reason we have Dry Dry Desert separate from Dry Dry Desert. The fact that "Yoshi's Island" has a consistent design distinct from the "Yoster Island" examples given and that we have at least one in-game source listing them separately is enough for me to agree.
3. Blinker (talk) - Per proposal.
4. Koopa con Carne (talk) per proposal
5. PopeLuigi (talk) Per proposal.
6. Spectrogram (talk) Per proposal
7. Hewer (talk) Per all.
8. Yo'ster (talk) Per my comment directly above the proposal. If you look at it from an unbiased point of view, rather than just going off of preconceived notions, they are quite obviously different locations and are only considered one in the same due to the English localization arbitrarily giving them the same name. Also, since this wasn't brought up in the proposal, I should clarify that their names in Japanese are actually ヨースター島 (SMW) and ヨッシーアイランド (YI), which are not similar at all besides starting with ヨ (Yo), and they don't use the same word for "Island" either. In other words, it's not a minor spelling difference as it appears to be when directly translated into English.
9. LinkTheLefty (talk) It is what it is.
10. Arend (talk) Per all, including Yo'ster.
11. BubbleRevolution (talk) Per all, they're very clearly separate locations in Japanese and Smash Wii U explicitly refers to them as separate islands. There's no reason to keep them merged into a single article when they're very clearly distinct locations in Japanese. To quote my piece from the discussion section above: "The point I'm making is that there's far more evidence they're separate locations than there is that they're intended to be the same place. Separate Japanese names, separate looks, referred to as two different places; the only thing really linking the two as potentially being the same location is the shared English name. Let me put it this way: If the Super Mario World location was still called "Yoster Island" in English, would you still think they should share a single page?"
12. Blhte (talk) per.

Oppose

1. Ray Trace (talk) Have to disagree here. I'm simply not a huge fan of creating annoying piping issues when the split hinged on a slightly different Japanese name and aesthetic and various locale differences that are heavily dependent on the context of the game (ie in Super Mario World 2, since they are designing the game around Yoshi, they *have* to expand on the island and give it a distinct flavor rather than a simple world that it was originally conceived as in Super Mario World). I know the DK Island/Peach's Castle has been addressed and I don't think the difference is that pronounced (Yoshi's Island has stronger ties to the Mario series than Yoshi's Island, and the argument here is well DKC is made by British people so we have to give it a pass). The rest are very arbitrary, such as the location of Yoshi's House (inconsequential, is supposed to be an easter egg to Super Mario World). I wouldn't be opposed to merging the stages, playing boards, and race track either, tbh, which also includes merging the instances of Luigi's Mansion in various games. Lavalava Island is also something I found very distinct than Yoshi's Island so I wouldn't even bring it up as a counterpoint for the Partners in Time which has the same name and is a very strong allusion to Yoshi's Island anyway.
2. Mario (talk) The lengthy talk page discussion above isn't inspiring me much confidence to split and I believe this is another case where a split based solely on Japanese script in three games out of plenty of other games (whose appearances all contradict with each other due to the noncanonicty nature of the series where locations adapt to fit gameplay constructs rather than the other way around), and it would serve to needlessly complicate rather than clarify. I don't think the Luigi's Mansions should be merged but that's another discussion.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per the opposition in the above discussion.
4. Scrooge200 (talk) I don't think SMRPG is really valid here; that game had a lot of localization errors and weirdness. I agree with Ray Trace, the piping issues and especially Partners in Time (among others games) consistently calling it Yoshi's Island.
5. Swallow (talk) Per all, and I'm seriously not in the mood to be questioned or dragged into a debate over this.
6. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.
7. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
8. MrConcreteDonkey (talk) Per all, especially Mario in the comments.
9. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Ray Trace (even the bit about being down to start fully merging these).
10. Tails777 (talk) Per Ray Trace, Mario and Scrooge200.
11. 7feetunder (talk) Per my comments in the above discussion. Mario Golf YI is barely Yoshi-themed at all, it's a generic tropical jungle area with Donkey Kong noises as ambience, just with giant YS fruits to loosely tie it to Yoshi (and oranges, which aren't associated with Yoshi at all). Partners in Time YI is an obvious hodgepodge. The "consistency" of the distinction between the two is oversold. Super Smash "Kaptain K. Rool is K. Rool's Brother" is not the gospel. The evidence just isn't strong enough for me. I don't find "a few unspecified randos I talked to agree with me" compelling either, especially since it comes loaded with the implicit statement that you think all casual readers think this way and feel this way. I never saw "Yo'ster Isle" as a distinct entity, just another portrayal of the island.
12. Shoey (talk) Per all.
13. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
14. Seandwalsh (talk) Per all.
15. SmokedChili (talk) I considered supporting the split but changed my mind after looking into Melee where the Japanese stage select has "Yoshi Island" as the greater location of "Yo'ster Island". Compared with Yoshi's Japanese SSB4 trophy, I don't see anything that would make these two pieces of evidence contradict each other. Per all.
16. Shadic 34 (talk) Per all. I don't think we need anymore "hair splitting" on this wiki. I think the Metal Mario article is the perfect example of one article that can talk about two slightly different subjects that revolve around the same idea at the same time, so even if some Yoshi's Islands have some differences from each other, I still think they shouldn't be split into separate articles because of how they're all still meant to be the same island.
17. Ninja Squid (talk) Per all.
18. RealStuffMister (talk) per all.

Comments

@Ray Trace A few notes to your argument;

"when the split hinged on a slightly different Japanese name and aesthetic and various locale differences that are heavily dependent on the context of the game..."

The name's different in English as well. "Yo'ster Island". It was used in SMRPG. Since that's also the name it had in Japan in SMW, we know SMRPG and SMW used the same location. And "that are heavily dependent on the context of the game" - the theme used for all the instances of "Yoshi's Island", the one that debuted in SMW2, has been relatively consistent within itself. The listed "Yo'ster Island" instances used a different more cubicle style. Plus, it is not based on a Japanese name; we literally have an in-game source from Super Smash Bros. Wii U listing them as two separate locations.

"since they are designing the game around Yoshi, they *have* to expand on the island and give it a distinct flavor"

They could have easily just used the same locations from SMW but made different levels and a story based on SMW for them. They didn't. They made a completely different island with completely different environments and completely different characters that have stayed in the Yoshi's Island series predominantly.

"well DKC is made by British people so we have to give it a pass"

Because the developers for that game are English and so the in-game English material should be taken as the developer's intent for DKC. Yoshi's Island was made in Japan (and so was Smash for the record), so the in-game Japanese material is taken as the developer's intent. Is that really hard to comprehend?

"inconsequential, is supposed to be an easter egg to Super Mario World"

If it's "inconsequential", it's not a point to consider them the same. And Yoshi's House doesn't even appear in SMW2, just the trees (for as far as I know).

"I wouldn't be opposed to merging the stages, playing boards, and race track either, tbh,"

And that would be inconsistent with how we treat other stages, boards, and tracks in the Greater Mario Series (cough cough). ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 22:02, April 17, 2023 (EDT)

@Mario "whose appearances all contradict with each other" - take a close look at the appearances listed under "Yoshi's Island". The themes they share are relatively consistent. Vivid colors, multi-biome, rounded, goal rings, based on SMW2, loads of smiling symbols, baby bowser, Kamek as a boss, children's book art style, infants to carry, loads of Shy Guys, watermelons etc, etc. None of those appear in the appearances labeled under "Yo'ster Island" in this proposal. Of course each iteration won't be exactly completely 100% the same with each other. That's why we are looking at themes, not specifics. ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 22:17, April 17, 2023 (EDT)

My interpretation is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless Super Mario World incarnation (which neither the SMRPG or Partners in Time resemble very well either, not even thematically, except the island theme in the basic sense; these are proposed to be in the same page) and expanded on it for the prequel. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 22:31, April 17, 2023 (EDT)

Except the only aesthetic similarities between the SMW "Yoshi's Island" and the SMW2 "Yoshi's Island" is that there is green grass and a few round mountains (which are not the same color, have eyes, and are actually hills in SMW) on the world map. But how about thinking of this the other way, then? We're not separating these two just to separate them by name (you could very easily make the SMRPG and PIT incarnations their own pages, mind you), we're separating "SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island" from "Not SMW2-themed Yoshi's Island". This is because the SMW2 theming has largely stuck as what Nintendo uses for Yoshi's Island, and because the listed "Yo'ster Island" appearances are treated as "Yo'ster Island" in Japan. Plus, We have a source in-game officially listing them as separate things. We don't have any sources saying something along the lines of "Hey you know Yoshi's Island from SMW? Well it's actually the same location as the one seen in the Yoshi's Island series!". Consistent thematic, aesthetic, and enemy design + consistently different name in Language of Origin + an in-game source listing then as separate things with none saying otherwise = separate entity. The math is not hard. (And why exactly do you not want the Luigi's Manshion courses to be merged but want this to stay merged? Editorial inertia?) ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 22:54, April 17, 2023 (EDT)

"they probably took the name" That's the thing, though; they didn't. They're called ヨースター島 (SMW) and ヨッシーアイランド (YI) respectively in in Japanese, which are not similar names at all. Same thing with @Ray Trace who said "the Partners in Time [island] which has the same name". It literally does not, that's the whole issue. There's no indication they're supposed to be the same other than the English localization and the vague idea of Yoshis living there. It seems like you guys are already biased towards the assumption they're the same just from playing the English versions first. --Yo'ster (talk) 06:42, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

I'd moreso like to know exactly was meant by "the noncanonicty nature of the series" since that phrase can be taken the wrong way (I was going to add something to the effect of "dismissing sources on factors like purported obscurity seems like a degree away from making canon judgments" during one of my last proposals). Either way, if this proposal fails, would it be unreasonable to go into more detail in the introduction as to reasons why it may not necessarily always be intended as the same location? We already do a similar thing with subjects like Missile/Bull's-Eye Bill and Grinder/Ukiki. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:18, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

@Scrooge Again, "It is named the same" does not mean "It is considered the same". Remember, we're not talking about an enemy or an object or a character or whatever, we're talking about a location here. And we tend to split locations on a game-by-game basis way more often than not. We have Dry Dry Desert split from Dry Dry Desert, we have Mushroom Kingdom split from Mushroom Kingdom and more, we have Mt. Lavalava split from Mt. Lavalava, we have nearly every instance of Luigi's Mansion and Bowser's Castle split, We split Donkey Kong Island from Donkey Kong Island, we split Peach's Castle from Peach's Castle, etc, etc. Why is it so easy for us to split instances of the same location appearing in different games, but when it comes to splitting the two aesthetically and nomenclature distinct "Yoshi's Islands" concepts (Which, again, has at least one official in-game source listing them separately and none saying otherwise via Smash 4), there's suddenly all this contention? Is it inertia? Because I feel like it's inertia at this point. ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 06:59, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

From a gameplay perspective these splits make more sense being discernible levels in a game and would otherwise clutter their overview pages (such as the level in Odyssey). Here, this split is based only on a naming scheme that, from the discussion above, isn't committed at all with very shaky spotty evidence in support while tons of other sources don't even bother. Aesthetic similarities are far and few inbetween and over emphasized imo, with overreliance on general theming to wallpaper over significant inconsistencies. Dry Dry Desert was clearly split on a gameplay perspective; otherwise it is a case where I wonder what the arguments even are for leaving split due to Japanese names being shared across four very different iterations (Kalamari Desert, Drybake Desert, why aren't these merged into Dry Dry Desert). Yoshi's Island is treated like a greater general location in the way Mushroom Kingdom and Peach's Castle but sometimes scaled down for a course like a Mario Kart track or Smash Bros level, hence these seemingly arbitrary patterns. This proposed split is not consistent with how we organize these pages. Maybe there is a point in having the Island in World having its own page as a proposed proto Yoshi's Island, but that the split is going to have content on Partners in Time and Super Mario RPG, as well as the argument they could be split further, makes me lean heavily to oppose. I'm not going to engage very much further, you can have the last word. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 11:05, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

"very shaky spotty evidence in support while tons of other sources don't even bother" You're arguing against the IP's own managers here. The Japanese in-game naming schemes are right there, plain as day. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:42, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Okay firstly, I do not like your attempt to discourage me from responding by framing this as me "having the last word", as if this was a battle of wits where one person wants superiority over another and not a debate on a topic with people from different viewpoints arguing until they reach a conclusion. If you want to stop responding, just say you agree to disagree.

But regardless I do not find your points very convincing. Why must the "gameplay" of an instance be the determiner of page splitting? Locations can appear in multiple games with multiple different genres and varying levels of statistics we need to cover, and not all of them end up split; take The Paper Mario instance of Bowser's Castle, for instance, and look at the amount things we have there. We don't split it from the main article in spite of that. (And from a wiki-meta perspective, your example of the Mushroom Kingdom in Odyssey isn't helpful at the moment either. We can't exactly merge it to the main Mushroom Kingdom article in the state it's currently in; It's formatted way too listy for any core "specific instance information" to be written up, and really needs to be completely rewritten.) Wether or not we split a location is down to a case-by-case basis, and in this case I (and several others) believe the SMW2 Yoshi's Island is distinct and separated enough from the other "Yoshi's Island" appearances to be its own thing, based on all the context we have so far. It's not even shown to be connected to Dinosaur Land anywhere outside of SMW.

As for the "significant inconsistencies" thing in the aesthetics, the only thing I can interpret from this is the specific details and actual schematics of the iterations themselves. When I bring up "theme", I am referring to a broader sense of how the collective of those specific details look in the big picture (graphics, artstyle, characters, etc), not necessarily the nitty-gritty of what goes on there. And this is because of course the locations will change a bit with each iteration, that's the only way they can make games "fun", otherwise you would just be playing the same thing over and over. But the appearances listed in this proposal as "Yoshi's Island" still feel way too similar thematically to feel like a separate location. The three big instances that would be split from the Yoshi's Island location (SMW, SMRPG, and PIT) do not share this trait; does the "Yoster Island" in SMRPG really look, feel, or act like the "Yoshi's Island" from SMW2?

As for Dry Dry Desert and your "I wonder what the arguments even are for leaving split due to Japanese names being shared across four very different iterations", you need to look closely as to what they actually are to understand why I specified it; as in, you need to realize that the five (M&W) "Dry Dry Desert"s in Japanese (or if you want an "English" argument, just the two also named as such in English) have nothing in common beyond being deserts. They don't share any non-generic elements that would otherwise indicate they are the same thing, and they come from completely different times and franchises. This is all to say that just because two or more locations share a name across multiple languages does not make them the same location. If you want another example, there's the two Sherbet Lands, which both appear in the same franchise.

Lastly, regarding you statement on "very shaky spotty evidence in support while tons of other sources don't even bother"...I feel like you're missing the point. They are all in-game statements, which is the most direct high-rank sources we have on our wiki based on our hierarchy policy. Yes, most of the time, a game in the Greater Mario Franchise™ won't bother to rectify a lore confusion based on a redesign and/or a different rename; they are usually meant to be light-hearted, couch co-op styled games with a simple & sweet storyline and probably were not focusing on it. It's the fact that there WAS a time that they bothered to rectify the Yoshi's/Yo'ster Island confusion in Smash 4, and the fact that what they bothered to say was "the locations are separate things", that is important here. Because it gives us a critical in-game clue as to what their true relationship is that other material failed to address; your main argument to this seems to hinge on "didn't bother to address" implying "they probably would've said they are the same". I can very easily turn this around and say "they probably would've said they are different islands, given that there was a source that said this before." Or if you really want to be direct, a "didn't bother" really means "they probably weren't thinking about it at that specific moment". Honestly, if it weren't for the in-game source, I'd be a bit iffy on voting to support, but the fact that there was an instance of an in-game source listing them as separate locations (and again, none saying otherwise) alleviates a considerable bit of doubt from this issue. ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 22:05, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

@Swallow, "I'm seriously not in the mood to be questioned or dragged into a debate over this." It is bad practice to vote and then disavow the responsibility to argue your position, because all it comes across as is a knee-jerk reaction. If your whole rationale is "this change is bad because I say so/I'm not in the mood to try to sway anyone on this", you should probably abstain from voting. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:42, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

His rationale likely just echoes the other opposition and he's aware he's not going to budge anyone nor is he convinced. It's just a per all vote but with added weariness to it. I believe there is a very core fundamental disagreement on how this wiki should be organized, for years. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 15:47, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

That doesn't really justify the attitude, especially since it's not the first time I've seen him express sentiments like that. The vote could have easily just ended at "per all"; no one is going to drag him into a fifteen-comment-long argument over a "per all" vote. 22:56, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Yeah I'm going to have to step in here before it escalates: please keep a cool head especially in disagreements. For both sides: there's no need to get in arguments about tone over how we should deal with this article. If you don't want to engage, just drop a vote and leave, you're not required to respond to comments or leave a snippy comment about the discourse. Also, votes carry the same weight whether it's two letters or two paragraphs, don't suggest anyone to abstain from voting please. Ray Trace^(T|C) 00:48, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

This was already settled between Swallow and KcC on a user talk page, calm down everyone. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

@Scrooge: While I wholeheartedly agree that SMRPG's localization is very inconsistent with the rest of the franchise, SMRPG's Yo'ster Isle being called as such in English is not the reason why it's grouped with the Yoshi's Islands from SMW or Melee; it's regarding the original Japanese name. Even if Super Mario RPG's localization was actually consistent with the rest of the franchise, and Yo'ster Isle was called Yoshi's Island in English, the Japanese name would still be "Yo'ster Island", just like with the SMW and Melee iterations. rend (talk) (edits) 14:35, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

@7feetunder The "few unspecified randos" isn't an argument for this, it's a rebuttal to the "this is what our readers expect ùwú" that I've been seeing recently as a "no, you can't pigeonhole that." As for the K. Rool thing, that was a clear mistake contradicting literally everything else, this contradicts nothing (not even the localization, different places can have the same name). Plus, this was in the era of updates that can remove errors. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:53, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

Like I stated in my comment in the discussion above, as far as I can tell, the only two mistakes in Smash that weren't a result of a mistranslation were the K. Rool's brother thing in Brawl and Count Canoli stated to be from the Wario Land series in Ultimate. That's two mistakes compared to the 99% of information in the Smash series that is accurate. And 100% accurate (again, AFAIK) in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description. Same with their stages since Brawl. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd believe the two islands are the same if I was a Japanese fan. --Yo'ster (talk) 05:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

"in the case of 3DS/Wii U, where Yoshi Island/Yoster Tou are mentioned as separate places in Yoshi's trophy description." Just to clarify, is that something in the Japanese versions of the games? I took a cursory look at our trophy pages, and the English scripts seem to use the umbrella term "Yoshi's Island", unless I need an eye check. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 06:05, April 21, 2023 (EDT)~

Yes, you are correct. See BubbleRevolution's comment at 18:44, December 13, 2021 (EST) in the discussion above. It was also mentioned in the opening paragraph of the propsal. Edit: You can see it for yourself here: https://youtu.be/Kjy7Gd4cjrM?t=418 It's the same in the 3DS version, which makes it even less likely that it's a mistake, now that I think about it. --Yo'ster (talk) 06:15, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

@"Oppose" voters I honestly do not understand the logic with merging these but not Lavalava Island, Craft Island, etc. At that point you might as well just merge every single islands were Yoshis live at this point. I'm open to changing my mind, so can someone against the split please explain your point of view regarding this? The only argument you seem to have is basically "they have the same name in English lol". --Yo'ster (talk) 05:32, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

something something "our readers come here for this", something something "there's uhm uuh there's one isolated reference to the game yoshi's island, clearly they must be the same island (even though you could make the same argument for the literal yoshis living there)" -- KOOPA CON CARNE 05:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

The two were made squarely after Yoshi's Island established itself. They're considered separate locations with little doubt about their names in several languages, unlike Yoshter where there is a conflict of naming schemes (especially in Smash Bros. that has two stages called "Yoshi's Island"), but also very notable in Partners in Time), on top of the very similar names, on top of the already-inconsistent portrayals of Yoshi's Island. Egg Island is Yoshi's Island all but in name but we have a page on it because of both the naming scheme and that the game it's in calls it a "second home" for the Yoshis. Maybe future games will mistakenly refer to Egg Island as Yoshi's Island because Egg Island has zero reason to be called such except probably coincide with the Yoshi's New Island game name, which would just make everyone even more confused, but until then it's called as such across all languages and called a "second home" and so we anticipate a page on it. I mean if Egg Island gets a page without a doubt I don't think it's unreasonable to make pages for Lavalava Island or Craft Island (the latter being also basically Yoshi's Island but having unambiguously a different name and probably to coincide with the game's themes) and maybe just refer to them because they're so similar to Yoshi's Island that the casual reader might think they're Yoshi's Island. Lavalava Island is not the best example to bring up either IMO; the location isn't significantly stand-out in its use of Yoshi's Island elements barring Yoshi residents and Lava Piranha Plant; the entire game already borrows from Yoshi's Island from enemies like Lantern Ghosts, Bandits, Bumpties, Crayzee Dayzees, and Little Mousers and even referencing several enemy designs including Boo, Goomba, and the Paratroopas. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 16:54, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Lavalava also has Ravens, Spear Guys, (Putrid) Piranha Plants with a similar stance to those in Yoshi's Island. Also, while Paper Mario does borrow a lot from Yoshi's Island, saying that in comparison to Partners in Time seems weird, considering that game's focus on the baby characters in the past. Though now that I'm looking, it seems to only use two enemies from Yoshi's Island, Boo Guy and Fly Guy... neither of which appear on the island. Blinker (talk) 18:12, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

It can be hard to keep track of this discussion (which is also why I didn't see your response until now) so I don't blame you if you missed it, so I'll say again that the names are not "very similar", but I kinda get why you'd think that especially since you keep calling it "Yoshter" (there's no H). That implies that they just swapped out "ter" for "i", but this isn't the case. They have completely different names - "Yōsutā Tō" (pronounced like Yo-Sta Toh) vs. "Yosshī Airando". Like I said under my "Support" vote: "Not similar at all besides starting with ヨ (Yo), and they don't use the same word for "Island" either." Anyway, as for your comment in general, look at it this way: Aside from the names in the English localizations, is there anything to suggest that they should be grouped together that doesn't also apply to the other "Yoshi islands"? --Yo'ster (talk) 20:23, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

I also find it weird that most of the opposition basically boil down to "they still have the same name in English", when it's the exact same predicament as Piranha Plant (Pit of 100 Trials), which was split from Piranha Plant purely due to its Japanese name being different (it looks otherwise identical to any Piranha Plant). I'm not sure why that's allowed to be split, but this isn't. rend (talk) (edits) 08:43, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

I really feel like it's just editorial inertia, at least partially, considering how things such as "piping issues" was brought up (which doesn't make sense since PorpleBot exists and has been used for several big changes before). Can anyone from the opposition provide evidence that they are the same? I haven't seen any beyond a shared English name (which I already provided several examples on for how it's not a good indicator of identity). ^S _o ^m _e ^t _h ⁱ _n ^g _o ⁿ _e ! 10:38, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

i cant elaborate currently but re paper mario, it's because of pale pirahna and the tattle log. It's a real snag It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 11:28, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Elaborating: the Piranha Plant situation in Thousand-Year Door is an anomaly of English localization. The Pit of 100 Trials enemy in the Tattle Log says "It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled!" and every other localization coined a unique name for the thing. On top of this, Pale Piranha adds to the confusion, where English localization deems it as a "new" enemy but the Tattle Log is ambiguous about its identity (" That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants") while every other language makes it more clear that it's just a normal Piranha Plant that's faded (so I ask rhetorically, where does that leave the Pit of 100 Trials plant??). While I believe Pale Piranha should just have its own page, I do think this is the case where English localization messed up and dealt us a bad hand, so I'm not opposed to the current setup of Pale Piranha merged in Piranha Plant either. See Talk:Pale Piranha; it's a contentious gray zone... a zone as gray as that Piranha Plant, the votes there are also quite divided on the merge. As I said, Japanese names CAN add clarity to a situation, and this is the one example I had in mind when I said that, but it cannot be relied on its own, it has to be supported by additional evidence as well as evidence of flaws in English localization. This is why I don't support splitting this on Japanese names but splitting the Pit of 100 Trials Piranha Plant on the Japanese names. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 16:41, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

@SmokedChili (talk) Sadly, that just brings more questions than answers. If Yo'ster Island is part of Yoshi's Island, does that mean Dinosaur Land is part of Yoshi's Island too? Or is Yoshi's Island part of Dinosaur Land? And how is Yo'ster Island supposed to be also part of a bigger island judging from its layout in any of the games? Also, why would the SSB4 trophy mention both islands and not just the greater location of Yoshi's Island? I'd love for it to be the case that both interpretations are correct, but it doesn't make much sense to me and contradicts pretty much everything else despite what you said, unless I'm misunderstanding something. --Yo'ster (talk) 11:38, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Considering that Dinosaur Land isn't even close to the vicinity of YI's Yoshi's Island (as it is nowhere to be seen on the title screen), I'm really not sure to believe that Yo'ster Island is supposed to be a small part of Yoshi's Island (or in turn, if Yoshi's Island either is a small part of Dinosaur Land, or even is Dinosaur Land). Considering that "greater locations" were opted out from stages in later Smash titles, I'm more inclined to believe that this is either a flub or a "series generalization" (as the Melee stage is regarded as a Yoshi series stage despite obviously being based on a Super Mario World location). For example, both Mute City and Big Blue's greater location is "F-Zero Grand Prix", which is not a location, but an event; as both courses take place on different planets. rend (talk) (edits) 12:24, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Plus, that may actually be greater cause for a split instead, given that the wiki hardly merges "greater" locations with "lesser" ones. If you look at this, every other Mario-related greater location is indeed its own article. And this explains perfectly why the equivalent English text goes with the incredibly awkward "Yoshi's Island Yoshi's Island" when no other stage repeats itself. The impression I get is “localizer plugged official translations in processor and editor didn't notice how strange it looked in-game” rather than a deliberate attempt at making them the same location in and of itself, which would've been better conveyed had it been formatted like the Mushroom Kingdom and Mushroom Kingdom II stages. All it proves is that they have the same English name currently, which we're already aware of? There are real-world places like that, like NY, NY. (As for why Yoshi's Island is part of Yoshi's Island, I'm not too sure - I wonder if someone thought "Yoshi Island" was synonymous with "Dinosaur Land" or if they needed something to pair with the Yoshi's Story stage - but the fact remains.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:25, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

@Yo'ster @Arend We're talking about the franchise where this island connected to a southern archipelago became the immediate western neighbor of Mushroom Kingdom. If every geographical question and contradiction has to be found an answer for, none will be.

@LTL How many places in Mario series share their English name with their greater locale though? And how many places does this wiki have merged or split despite the Japanese name criteria? If that's the highest and most concrete link there can be (especially compared to using geography), what's stopping people from trying to merge Forest of Illusion and Forever Forest aka Mayoi no Mori? SmokedChili (talk) 12:52, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

"Mayoi no Mori" is actually an incredibly common generic description in Japanese media iirc, comparable to Karakara Sabaku, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it myself. As for your first question, see Smithy Factory (world) for an example. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:57, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

Not least of which would be the situation with the Super Mario RPG equivalent of Toad Town, or you can count World 8-Bowser's Castle in several releases of Super Mario Bros. 3 for the earliest instance. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:55, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

(I started this in response to KCC's comment just above but this turned into more of a general point, and it's not exclusively aimed at him) I was initially going to add a longer reason for my oppose vote but this attitude from some people on the support side (and the proposal itself) is exactly what switched me off from doing so, and I'd imagine plenty of other people on the oppose side are in the same boat. There's no need to be so condescending about this, especially considering it's a trivial thing which basically boils down to each voter's opinion whether the two being different in the Japanese version should matter to us or not.

You've made plenty of arguments why you think it should be changed based on opinion, but none of these seem to correspond to any Wiki policies? It definitely doesn't correspond to the naming policy. The first line of the naming policy indicates "the most commonly used English name" should be used and - outside of people in this discussion - does anyone use the term "Yo'ster Island" (barring Mario RPG) to describe the island in any of these games? This is one of those things that's impossible to prove definitively but from a simple search for the term on Twitter, the only place it shows up is in regard to RPG - and from being in this community for a number of years I've never heard this term used in this way outside of this proposal.

Also, as far as I can tell, in the English version, this island is only called "Yo'ster Island" in Mario RPG - so where's the evidence this title applies to any of the other games that are listed? If anything, grouping them all together as "Yo'ster Island", using a one-time title from a decades-old spinoff, is way more fanfiction-y than claiming the two islands are the same (which equally I'm not sure anyone is doing?). If you're basing the general title off the translation of the Japanese term, then should we retitle every article that debuted in a Japanese game to a translation of its Japanese name? i.e. Bowser to "Koopa", Birdo to "Catherine"?

The worldwide argument is understandable in some cases, but this is specifically the English language Mario Wiki and should - besides content not released in English - most accurately reflect the English language version of the games. We accommodate for non-English users (i.e. by including names in other languages in articles) but assigning such a level of importance to whichever language each game was first released in has a lot of potential to confuse things, especially seeing as release dates in different countries are now much closer together.

As to why other articles are split - Mario Kart and Smash Bros. courses/stages are split as these articles focus on the mechanics/obstacles of the stage itself, rather than the lore surrounding the location. The Piranha Plant in TTYD... I don't know! But looking at the TPP from 8 years ago it seems like the main reason that was kept split was the Tattle being different from the Piranha Plants located elsewhere in the game.

I'm especially confused as to why a Smash Bros. trophy is being used as the smoking gun here, considering we're currently in the middle of drastically reducing our Smash Bros coverage, these trophies can contain mistakes (in the English version at least, no idea how I'd even check the Japanese version to cross-reference), and we don't know who's even writing this and what they're basing their information on.

I also don't want to be dragged into anything as a result of this because this is a fairly trivial thing, just wanted to clarify my vote because I'm getting a bit tired of being grouped into certain comments as an oppose voter. MrConcreteDonkey 13:55, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Apologies if I came off as condescending, it wasn't my intent. I understand your position, however I think you missed the point of the proposal. No one wants to make a "Yo'ster Island" article; if that were the case, I'd agree with you, but the proposal was specifically to split them between Yoshi's Island (Mario franchise) and Yoshi's Island (Yoshi franchise) (Doc von Schmeltwick's probably should've mentioned that at the start instead of only mentioning it in an addendum, but oh well). This is because they are literally two different locations who were given the same name in the English localizations. I'm not gonna go into the arguments again as you can read them above, but the short version is that in addition to them not having the same name, they also have little to do with each other besides being islands where Yoshis live.

If you still disagree with the proposal even after taking that into account, that's okay too. If your idea is that the articles should stay merged because that's what English speakers know them as, despite being different locations, I still disagree but it's at least more understandable. Though if it stays merged, I feel it should at least be noted that they are indeed different islands with different names in Japanese. --Yo'ster (talk) 14:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Thanks for clarifying that, if it does pass then calling both "Yoshi's Island" definitely makes more sense. Also I hadn't noticed anything you'd said in particular, so no worries. MrConcreteDonkey 14:37, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

@Mr Concrete Donkey: You took the policy out of context and applied it to something unrelated. Very convenient for the point you are trying to make, but disingenuous all the same.
The policy you quoted concerns subject names, and nothing more. I don't see it making a single case for using that specific aspect as a thrust for the wiki's organisation (that obviously shouldn't even be in the policy's scope). Perhaps you can show me where it does? Anyhow, two completely unrelated things can have the same name in English, like Boomer and Boomer; for the same reasons you invoked earlier, would you say these warrant being merged?
I'm certain you would think of course not! Those characters have nothing in common, from species, to appearance, to even the context they are found in. So here's the real kicker: based on much the same criteria, Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island aren't the same place either. They are both inhabited by Yoshis, and both have the same English name, but that's where the similarities end. Nevermind the different appearance and context: they are indicated as being separate by all lang-of-origin sources, including the games themselves, and I'd be hard pressed to think these, of all conceivable media and authorities on the matter, weren't overseen by whatever entity at Nintendo keeps the brand and its constituent elements in check. I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"'s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from Super Mario World's original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market; regardless of whether or not this actually happened, the fact remains firm that the very people who created the games made a conscious decision to tie this place to the SMW Yoshi's Island, and that those who created the original Yoshi's Island game ostensibly didn't have an intention of expanding the first world of SMW into an entire game setting, if, again, the lang-of-origin name is anything to go by.
"But we're English!!! Our readers!!!!!1!!1!"
Anyone who still uses this argument needs to understand that it's a facet of a well-known rhetorical fallacy. The wiki has chosen English as its lingua franca, because it had to choose one and it was (likely) most handy for the founder to use. That's all there is to it. This shouldn't by any means be an excuse to distort the authorial intent and developments of this wiki's relevant constructs, for at the end of the day the site's mission statement as an online encyclopedia is (or should be) accuracy, thoroughness, and reliability. Besides, as it's been posed a few times before: if these two incarnations of "Yoshi's home island" had altogether different names in English as they do in Japanese, would this discussion even take place? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

"I find it entirely possible that so-called "Yo'ster Island"'s subsequent appearance in Partners in Time being referred to as "Yoshi's Island" in English could be a holdover from Super Mario World's original English localisation, where the localisers simply decided to go with what is more recognisable for the pertinent market" Pretty sure that's literally what it is. Same reason it's called "Yoshi's Island" in Smash, and every other English game besides Super Mario RPG. But yeah, the best argument I can see for "Oppose" at this point is "They're different places, but it's easier for English speakers to keep them merged", which seems inconsistent with the rest of the wiki as you pointed out. Though with your specific example, it could be argued that the Yoshi islands are still a lot more similar than the Boomers, but again that just goes back to, "are we going to merge everything that's slightly similar, by that logic Lavalava Island etc...". It's all arbitrary and up to discretion on where to draw the line. However, I feel the most important thing should probably be consistency, which is why I tend to agree with you on this matter. --Yo'ster (talk) 16:16, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

The Boomers were chosen simply to make a point that MarioWiki:Naming doesn't have jurisdiction over the merging or splitting of subjects, even when they share a name. I guess a more similar analogy to the two Yoshi's Islands would be Spiny and Spiny (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest), since conceptually they can be seen as pretty much the same thing. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:20, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Yeah, I getcha. I was basically just playing devil's advocate as I assumed someone would probably respond to you and say that. --Yo'ster (talk) 16:23, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Apologies in advance if this is uncouth, but I'd like to go into more detail and respond to some specific points made. If I mentioned you here, you don't need to respond, I just want to get all my thoughts out there.

@Ray Trace "Super Mario World 2, since they are designing the game around Yoshi, they *have* to expand on the island and give it a distinct flavor rather than a simple world that it was originally conceived as in Super Mario World)." [...] "...so I wouldn't even bring it up as a counterpoint for the Partners in Time which has the same name"
@Mario "My interpretation is that they probably took the name and components from the relatively-featureless..."
You're working backwards from your conclusion here that the island from Yoshi's Island is definitely based on the one from Super Mario World, which is most likely not the case judging from their intended names given to them by their creators, like KOOPA CON CARNE said above. Also, you guys keep saying that it "has the same name" when it doesn't; the "same name" was added after the fact by the localization team. That's part of the whole issue. Try to look at it from a neutral point of view.

@7feetunder "I never saw "Yo'ster Isle" as a distinct entity, just another portrayal of the island."
@Ray Trace "Lavalava Island is also something I found very distinct than Yoshi's Island"
This is irrelevant, it doesn't matter what you personally thought. If Lavalava has a similar amount of similarities to Yoshi's Island as PiT Yoshi's Island does, yet they're counted separately because they have different names, that should apply equally across the board.

Again, if you recognize they're different locations but just think it's better to have them in one article due to sharing an English name, that's fine, but statements like these come off as speculative and headcanon-y (for lack of a better term). Again, apologies if this comes off as rude since that's not my intent. --Yo'ster (talk) 16:56, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Given the lack of evidence for the separation (again the talk page above: and given the general chronology between World and World 2, given that some users had to dig through a ton of sources that either say little about, is ambiguous, or contradicts the subject until you found one that did); LinktheLefty did the same and had a comment that was very very inconclusive, see the comment made in 11:17, October 23, 2021 (EDT)[1][2][3]), I don't think it's an unreasonable interpretation. As I said, I could see a case for the proto-Yoshi's Island from World being its own page, but this proposal is going to have an article that's split between two series all over a distinction that isn't even clear to begin with. Where is Yoshi's Island (board) going to go, with its appearance in the Mario series? It clearly alludes to the Yoshi series but what about the Yoshi's Island (golf course)? Is that going to be lumped with the Super Mario World Yoshi's Island? It's still effectively a Yo'shter island vs Yoshi's Island situation. As Mister Wu said in the above discussion, whatever distinction between these islands is blurred, but eventually lost as the brand developed, as seen in the interview with Toby Fox which Nintendo published. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 17:19, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

I don't think the interview helps prove anything. The writer/translator isn't the brand managing director, nor are they actually confirmed to have been in touch with someone in that position; for all we know, they just didn't care to research the topic like we do, and jotted down exactly what the interviewee said. It's not evidence that the committee has lost track of its own creation or something. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:31, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

I know you were probably initially confusing me with someone else but I never dug through any sources; I'm literally going off of the Japanese games alone and that's it. When taking that into account it's pretty obvious which games go where, and the distinction is very clear. Did you think they were going to be arbitrarily separated based on whichever series we personally thought it resembled more? And with the "proto-Yoshi's Island" comment, it seems you're still assuming that Yoshi's Island is somehow an evolution of "Yoster Island", of which there is no indication of besides their shared English name and Yoshis living there. If anything, Dinosaur Land as a whole is a proto-Yoshi's Island, as it has more similarities to YI than "Yoster Island" alone (not much, but still more). --Yo'ster (talk) 18:09, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Ironically, the implication of digging through sources to find something that fits a pre-concived narrative applies more to the Toby Fox interview, as that's the best evidence I've seen for them being the same or becoming burred together, besides the English names, and it's still flawed as you said. While on the other hand we have actual in-game sources explicitly saying they're not the same in addition to them having completely different names in the original language. Not saying there isn't any more evidence to the contrary, just that I haven't seen it and no one has posted it yet. Like, if Nintendo came out and clearly said they're the same after all, I would join the oppose side. --Yo'ster (talk) 18:09, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

You're taking my words out of context. That was a response to Doc's claim that "the merge here always bothered me even before I knew about the JP name thing", a sentiment I did not share. It's not a reason this shouldn't be split. You responding to that quote is what's irrelevant. 20:34, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Apologies for the misunderstanding. It still applies to the general sentiment, at least. --Yo'ster (talk) 20:45, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Gonna echo MrConcreteDonkey's sentiment that strawmanning has become a persistent issue with the supporters' commentary. Something something "japanese namez r diffrent", something something "smash sed so". <-- There you have it, a 100% accurate and not-at-all hideously biased summation of the supporters' thoughts. If you can do this, why shouldn't I? Answer: because it proves exactly nothing.

Now for my actual argument.

My main problem with this split is the idea that the various incarnations of Yoshi's Island fit neatly and snugly into two categories: Mario franchise YI and Yoshi franchise YI. It's all so clear and consistent, right? Not really. Again, I have to emphasize the Mario Golf course. It's Yoshi-theming is highly superficial, yet we want to file it under Yoshi franchise because the name matches and it has giant fruits. Smash making a couple mistakes doesn't make it a Dark Horse-level mockery, but there's also just the fact that it isn't a Mario game, but a mega crossover franchise with Mario content in it. I don't have a problem with using it as evidence, but treating it like a smoking gun doesn't sit well with me.

About the "English wiki" thing: This wasn't a part of my argument, but I feel the need to address it because it keeps getting brought up as a means to throw shade at the opposition. For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric. When merges and splits where Japanese names are relevant occur, it's usually because the English localization is faulty or inconsistent. Pale Piranha and SPM Moon Cleft, for instance, were localization oddities that arose from the bizarre way that Piranha Plants and Clefts were portrayed in TTYD. In this case, however, the "Yoshi's Island" name is consistently used barring Super Mario RPG, a game with rushed and inconsistent translations out the wazoo that have long since been left in the dust. Sometimes English lore simply differs from Japanese lore (Kamek being a good example of this), and that's the overall impression I get from this, especially since Smash mentioning Yoshi's Island and "Yo'ster Island" separately is a Japanese-specific detail. English localizations not distinguishing between the two isn't all that out there given the inconsistent names and portrayals of other major recurring locations, since both share the same general role of "island belonging to the Yoshis" and their portrayals aren't perfectly consistent even amongst themselves.

While us being an English wiki does not in and of itself dictate how we split and merge things, it does affect how we cover them. Our Garden Grab article is first and foremost an article about a minigame where the players pull carrots out of the ground. We bring up that the Japanese version has daikon radishes instead and include screenshots of it, but the focus is still on the carrots. If this were a Japanese wiki, it would absolutely be the other way around, with the focus on the radishes and a mention of them being carrots overseas. With the wiki being in English, it makes sense to cater primarily to native English-speaking countries, since anyone outside of those countries who isn't fluent in English will be relying on Google Translate. Therefore, when English and Japanese versions differ in a way that neither is definitively "wrong", it's simply pragmatic to focus on the English side of things. "This is an English wiki" not being a convincing argument by itself doesn't make the polar opposite sentiment of "us being an English wiki has zero relevance" any more accurate. 00:01, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

RE Garden Grab: you have glossed over the fact that this wasn’t the work of localisation. The game was developed in Japan, and Hudson/Nintendo decided or were told to replace a Japanese vegetable with something more internationally recogniseable for the overseas market; therefore, I would say the swapping of models is still the work of the creators. Besides, the wiki being English means it can and should outwardly echo English material--if Yo’ster were to be split from Yoshi’s Island, it would still be called “Yoshi’s Island” with an identifier because that’s its most recent and commonly used English name. To paraphrase what I told MrConcreteDonkey, do not conflate issues of naming and outward presentation with the intent behind these concepts.
RE Smash rebuttal: Quite honestly I did not see anyone seriously interpreting those trophy descriptions as decisive, but moreso being received for consideration and comparison. In that respect, I think it’s evident that they do carry much more weight than a random online interview. If you want to reduce the supporters’ rationale to a curt comment, keep in mind that it has to make sense first.
RE general issue of distinction: As I said above, it’s likely whoever localised PiT and Smash 3DS/WiiU in English went for the original English name of the SMW island because that’s what local markets tie what the Japanese call “Yo’ster island” to. The English Smash trophy writer either didn’t have enough space or didn’t have the fiat to add “see, Yoshi actually lives on two different islands called Yoshi’s Island” and just merged the two concepts for the sake of brevity.
”For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric.” You’re making stuff up. There is no sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers like you’re making it out to be. In the Construction Site Fight proposal, my arguments even reflected an altogether different sentiment, that the English naming scheme of that level should be prioritised—which is because the creators of the game that subject pertains to were British, with the manual writer likely American. I’m only for consistently applying the principle of “authorial intent”.
RE Yoshi’s Island golf course: And the aforementioned point finally brings me here. In the absence of any obvious physical clues that would tie the course to one island or another, IMO it’s best to turn to the Japanese name (as the game’s creators were Japanese), which staunchly ties is to the, uh, “Yoshi’s Island” Yoshi’s Island. Also, I admit I find strange how you're fixated on this one-shot level in a spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house and you think the way you identify it completely topples the plethora of arguments made in support of the proposal. Case closed. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 06:36, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

RE: RE Garden Grab: A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it, and your interpretation of how it happened is not something you could know for sure without word from the developers.
RE: RE Smash rebuttal: BubbleRevolution was the one called it a "smoking gun" when bringing it up in the pre-proposal discussion. I'm not going to sift through every comment on this page but that's the one I remember.
RE: RE general issue of distinction: "Likely" doesn't mean "true". We can't know without confirmation how they really feel about this topic - all we know is that English has never distinguished between the two.
RE I'm making stuff up: No, I'm not. This isn't like Chestnut King where it's every language but English - this proposal is built around Japanese-specific lore that was removed from not just English, but from just about every other language it seems. Also, the argument that there is a "sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers" exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that nor have I implied such a ridiculous thing, only that supporters are thinking from a Japanese perspective and not a global one. The one making stuff up here is you, not me.
RE: RE Yoshi's Island golf course: I find it strange that you feel the need to bring up that Mario Golf is a "spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house" when that's literally most of the franchise by now. Also, case closed? This proposal's still ongoing, and it's currently not going in the proposal's favor. 23:21, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

"A regional difference is a regional difference, it doesn't matter who ordered it." I'd say it does. Mario Party 6 doesn't credit anyone from outside the main development team for the game's graphics; even if NoA were the ones to dictate that radishes be replaced with carrots during product testing, the onus was still on Hudson--the game's creators and those closely in touch with NoJ--to make the change. Conversely, a mere localisation team claims no real authorship of the product, certainly not a lot more than any given licensed guide. There has to be a hierarchy for the sources used on the wiki, because it's ridiculous to give supreme credence to Nate Bihldorff et al. when they didn't create the game. "Also, the argument that there is a 'sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers' exists solely in your imagination. I have said nothing regarding that [...]" You accused the supporters for slanting their views solely towards the constructs of Japanese developers (let me just quote you again: "For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric"). This is so far from the truth that my response, apart from being obvious snark, can't be perceived as any more ridiculous. You backpedalled on your statement to claim a gotcha is what you did. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 09:03, April 23, 2023 (EDT)

Mario Golf 64 actually takes a lot of Yoshi's Story elements, even outside of that course. In Template:Media link scene art for the "Mario's Star" course, for example, we can see Cheep Cheeps and flowers with Story designs intermixed among other things from different games. As such, it seems like they chose to make yet another reference to the then-most recent game in the Yoshi sister franchise, but it ended up being left fairly vague due to the limitations and lack of gimmicks. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:40, April 23, 2023 (EDT)

@ Koopa Con Carne: I expressed my opinion and didn't imply the way you'd expressed yours was in bad faith, so I don't appreciate your claim I'm being "disingenuous". This is about splitting an article on a fan wiki for a video game series, what ulterior motives do you think anyone has here?

Firstly, you've "conveniently" ignored the discussion I had with Yo'ster just before you'd made your comment, where he pointed out to me that the proposal is not trying to change the name to "Yo'ster Island". It's an easy mistake to make seeing as the proposer seems more occupied with editing in petty comments than clarifying what he's trying to do.

This still doesn't provide any reason as to why the two Islands have been split into these two arbitrary lists - the only real reason for this appears to be aesthetic similarities, but the idea that the islands from these specific games are the same doesn't appear to be explicitly confirmed anywhere. The Japanese trophy description does list the two separate islands but unless part of it has been omitted the way they've been split is based entirely on speculation - which is "completely unimportant" to the Wiki according to MarioWiki:Canonicity.

To go into the idea further, the trophy claims Yoshi assists Mario with his adventures on these islands, but Mario doesn't even appear in Yoshi's Story or Yoshi's Crafted World - plus, the latter is "supposed to take place in a kindergarten class within the Mario universe" according to the developers, so surely the argument should be to split this into three different articles?

Your point about the Wiki only being English because it's a lingua franca isn't correct and you only need to visit the Main Page to find out why - we are listed as the English Wiki on the Mushroom World Encyclopedia, alongside the German Mario Wiki and Italian Mario Wiki, and that we "[cover] the Mario franchise from different areas of the world". This is also reflected on both of their websites. If this site was intended to cover the series from a worldwide perspective to such an extent, we should be offering entire articles written in other languages rather than simply names to cross-reference at the bottom of articles - like Wikipedia, which I'm assuming you're thinking of with your "online encyclopedia" comment. We can't do this because a) presumably the server costs would be massive if we expanded the Wiki by that much, and b) we don't have a large enough community (international or not) to maintain this.

But also I agree with 7feetunder's point above that all of this talk of catering to "worldwide" audiences comes off as Japan-centric, because that's the only other language that's even been brought up in regard to this. He hasn't implied anyone's pushing "sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers" and claiming he has is a bit overdramatic. It's a Japanese-created series so some focus on that is understandable, but the idea that we have to lean towards the Japanese interpretation of things over the English interpretation doesn't appear to have any footing in our our coverage policy - and, if anything, claiming the original Japanese version is more correct/official seems to directly go against it. Again I don't edit the Wiki often and even when I did I had little experience with policy, but I think the burden of finding a policy that supports changing the way things are lies with the support side and not the opposition.

Either way, as a result, every proposal like this (cf. Prince Froggy) is going to end in a stalemate which is unsatisfying for both sides, because it's all essentially based on personal preference (not necessarily about canon, but more the importance of canon over simplicity) and overspeculation. As there's no clear policy reason for doing this, there's little here which is explicitly right or wrong, so this all just comes across as argument for the sake of argument. MrConcreteDonkey 11:52, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

If this is an "English wiki," why do I see it being cited on Japanese forums? Anyway, apologies for not being active with this, finals snuck up on me and the others are doing a swell job of articulating the arguments, and I prefer not to get heated myself these days. Still, I don't think it's a speculative stretch to say that Template:Media link, Template:Media link, and Template:Media link are the same while Template:Media link is different, especially since the creators of the games in question never seemed to consider them all that similar in the first place. Crafted World is just about the introduction, anyway. I want to defer to BubbleRevolution's comment about "would these be merged in the first place if the localized name weren't different?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:47, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

Your "ulterior motives" question came straight out of the left field. I can only assume it's in reference to a specific comment I left on Porplemontage's talk page some time ago (one which I already admitted to have been slightly overblown), in which case it's yet another piece of writing taken out of context. I contribute to the wiki often and with enjoyment, and I like to argue here, so indeed it's impossible for me not to display a smidgen of emotional involvement in such a heated discussion--however, I consider myself a passenger through and through. Realistically, I'm in no way affected by either outcome nor do I have a reason to insinuate that the opposing side is involved in some sort of conspiracy. That's inane.
Back to the topic: I encourage you to re-read my latest response to 7feetunder. Firstly: nobody is making any case for the Smash trophies being the end-all, be-all source of information. Talk about strawmanning. "This still doesn't provide any reason as to why the two Islands have been split into these two arbitrary lists - the only real reason for this appears to be aesthetic similarities [...]" And here it is, a fundamental misunderstanding or refusal to consider certain views. No, categorically "aesthetic similarities" isn't the main thrust; it's the perception from the side of the ones who first named those islands. "Your point about the Wiki only being English because it's a lingua franca isn't correct and you only need to visit the Main Page to find out why - we are listed as the English Wiki on the Mushroom World Encyclopedia, alongside the German Mario Wiki and Italian Mario Wiki, and that we '[cover] the Mario franchise from different areas of the world'." Cool? What does this have to do with anything? My claim was that the language info is conveyed in shouldn't be used to twist information to appeal to the addressee's own world view. Language itself is neutral to this franchise's history. Never once have I claimed to advocate for a multi-angled, worldwide presentation of information. All I and some other users really do is push the idea of "creators know best about their creation". That's it. I feel like people here lose sight of that easy principle simply because, more often than not, there exists a language barrier between us English-speaking fans and said creators, and we unfruitfully tangle ourselves up in that notion.
Anyway, I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself here. In the spirit of what Bazooka Mario said above, I'll let you have the last word on this. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:54, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

The "ulterior motives" comment was only referring to the implication of disingenuinty and the wider assumptions that people are only opposing because it clashes with their personal canon, neither of which really felt warranted. MrConcreteDonkey 13:18, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

Not sure if this is particularly helpful, but the islands also have different names in Chinese and Korean, predictably enough. Those two seem to follow the Japanese names rather closely most of the time, when other languages tend to be more based on the English translations. Somewhat inconsistently, in the case of, say, French and German, but yeah. So the Japanese and English names are the more interesting ones here, it's no surprise they're the ones being brought up... Blinker (talk)

I also looked over at the Mario Portal character profiles to see if Yoshi's mentioned both Yoshi's Island and Yo'ster Island, but his profile only seems to mention the former. Then I looked at the story on the portal's Super Mario World page, but while that page does mention Yo'ster Island, the page also states that the story is directly taken from the Japanese manual.
I don't think this is to say that the two islands are the same, but I feel it would've been more conclusive evidence that they are different if the two islands were mentioned in the same paragraph on the Mario Portal, but that doesn't seem to be the case. rend (talk) (edits) 14:14, April 22, 2023 (EDT)

Nintendo as usual has a functional approach: what matters is that it is the island of the Yoshis, and in case specific references (like in the case of the Booster Course Pass/Tour course that is specifically based on Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island rather than any other Yoshi platform game). That's why it's so hard for us to decide on this kind of split. It also doesn't help that, despite Super Mario World being iconic, its own Yo'ster Isle with its unique look hasn't featured a lot in material directly by Nintendo so far, with Yoshi's House being its only actually recurring element, even the course was rather based on the original Yoshi's Island. One even wonders if that world map look of Yo'ster Isle in Super Mario World wasn't functional as well, with Yoshi's House being the only element that was meant to look like it looked in-game.--Mister Wu (talk) 00:28, April 23, 2023 (EDT)