Talk:Koopalings

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Koopalings Talk
Archive 1 (1-50)

An interesting sketch

I just found on Supper Mario Broth this sketch that I added to the gallery:

From the Japanese text it seems that it was made by Kotabe and Tezuka, which would be interesting:

「当初のクッパはまったくまとまりのない絵てした。このスケッチのパージョンになるまてには小田部、手塚両氏との共同作業が続きました。」

I am not sure, however, that this is a correct transcription. Could someone help me with the transcription and the translation?--Mister Wu (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2016 (EDT)

Defeated in SMW

In Super mario world, What happens to Ludwig Koopa, such as Roy and morton? Their sprites when are defeated becomes smaller and spin until the sprite turns into cloud... Do that mean They are hurted on the shell and becomes far and bad landing? --109.31.71.43 06:13, 26 July 2016 (EDT)

Stop consistently referring to the Koopalings with their full names

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

keep full names 3-15

I've noticed that the wiki still refers to the Koopalings by their full names, eg Larry Koopa rather than simply Larry. However, I don't see why this is still the case as these names are not ever in use anymore. After doing a little research I've found that only a few games ever actually use these names. Going over all of their appearances: SMB3 and SMW do use their full names in manuals; Yoshi's Safari does not seem to name them anywhere in the game; Hotel Mario already seems to have dropped their ‘Koopa’ part from their names, as the hotels are named after simply their first names (eg Larry's Chillton Hotel, rather than Larry Koopa's Chillton Hotel); Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga only refers to them by their first names in the battle screen; NSMBW and NSMB2 only use their first names in the manual (at least in the Dutch manuals, though I can't find anything about others); New Super Mario Bros. U also only uses their first names in their personal Castle stages at the end of each world. The Koopalings appearing as playable in Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart 8, and Mario & Sonic Rio are also only referred to by their first names on the selection screen and result screens. Even if their surnames may still be considered canon, the article for Princess Peach is also only simply called Princess Peach rather than Princess Peach Toadstool, because the surname is not in use anymore even though it still exists.

Proposer: Qyzxf (talk)
Deadline: September 10^th, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Qyzxf (talk) Per proposal.
2. 3D Player 2010 (talk) Per proposal. Also, Smash should not be considered when we decide what articles on the wiki should be named.
3. LinkTheLefty (talk) Qyzxf is completely right; while their full names are significant and serve their purpose, the last time the Koopalings were ever referred to with them in any original game material (excluding certain re-releases of their first two appearances and an easter egg exclusive to Super Smash Bros. for Wii U) was 1991. Throughout by and far the clear majority of their existence, they're only listed under their first names; therefore, these names should be used as their articles. Their full names obviously do and will have a place, but they can just be delegated to their character infoboxes just like Bowser Koopa and Peach Toadstool (and occasionally Mario Mario and Luigi Mario) before them. The only other thing is that either Roy will have to be moved to "Roy (Koopaling)" (awkward) or the existing Roy article needs to move to "Roy (disambiguation)", otherwise it seems like an easy action... Support.

Oppose

1. Mister Wu (talk) For this simple reason I oppose. Their full names are still in use, even if not commonly.
2. YoshiKong (talk) – Per Mister Wu. The full names are still in use within contemporary games, unlike "Princess Peach Toadstool" (which hasn't been used for a long time).
3. AfternoonLight (talk) Per both! We need full names for the Koopalings! People has full names as well. For example: The full name for Bowser's current voice actor, Kenny James is Kenneth William James. That is why I'm keeping it!
4. Tucayo (talk) - Per Mister Wu.
5. Time Turner (talk) Per all.
6. LudwigVon (talk) Per all.
7. SuperYoshiBros (talk) Per all.
8. Fieke Meowstic (talk) From the official New Super Mario Bros. U website: Ludwig Von Koopa, just who is your barber!? Per all!
9. Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) Per all.
10. Tails777 (talk) I don't see anything wrong with keeping their full names. They really haven't been neglected that much over time. Per all.
11. Bazooka Mario (talk) I believe this conversation within this talk page sums up my position, but I say that this proposal still makes a fairly interesting point. Regardless, I stand by the points in that conversation (the names can possibly be shortened to save space and repetition rather than make a point; removing the full names would remove the pop culture reference; and the names are very well established compared to the Princess Peach Toadstool or Mario Mario examples that are used for a comparison).
12. Niiue (talk) Per all.
13. Andymii (talk) Per all.
14. Quizmelon (talk) Per all.
15. Marioguy (talk) Per all.

Comments

@3D Player: Any particular reason we shouldn't consider Smash when it comes to names. Also @AfternoonLight, you are aware that the redirect to Kenny James of his full name was deleted? Yoshi876 (talk)

@Mister Wu: Their full names not being "common" is precisely why the article titles should change to reflect it, as dictated by naming policy. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:28, 28 August 2016 (EDT)

I realise that their names are still more in use than Toadstool for Peach, but in the vast majority of games they are not used anymore. Of course there are exceptions but I think it's reasonable to refer to them as only their first name as that is the way Nintendo does it too more often. I just think we should do it how nintendo does it. As LinkTheLefty said, their names would still be used in their infobox, I just think it's strange that their last names are still used all over the wiki while the games don't use them anymore. Also, I think that generally on the wiki, the more common and recent names normally take precedence over old and less frequently used names, I don't see why this should be an exception. ~ Qyzxf (talk)

The problem is, from what I'm seeing the names in the infoboxes are official but practically used a few times at most and then abandoned. For example Bowser's name being Bowser Koopa is indirectly acknowledged because the Bowser Trike is a thing in Japan, where Bowser is known as Koopa, but if I'm not mistaken the full name was barely used, if at all. Similarly, Peach and Toadstool were connected at the beginning of the N64 era, but then Peach was used instead. Here, the names are still used in at least a recent game (SSB4), a guide (the PRIMA guide for NSMBW) and an official site (the North American Site of NSMBU), so there is still a continuity, it's not like the names of the Koopalings were dropped when they were reintroduced in NSMBW.

An extreme example, related to the Koopalings, of why I would be cautious in droppping names apparently no longer in use is the case of the Italian name Bowserotti, direct translation of a Japanese term in disuse. In 2015 it might have been reasonable to drop it because Scagnozzi di Bowser was being used since 2009 in the new games, with the only exception of the port of Super Mario All Stars for the Wii that, well, was a port of an older game. Ironically, at the end of 2015 Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam came and in it the name Bowserotti was used again, but not only that, that term came in full force again, being used even in the announcement of the Mario Mash-Up Pack for Minecraft and in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games, while Scagnozzi di Bowser is being used only in Paper Mario: Color Splash.

Maybe Nintendo will eventually drop the full names, as it is apparently dropping it in most games, but at this moment it is a bit early to say that, in my opinion.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2016 (EDT)

Definitely, they haven't been dropped, I can see that. My main point is that I think we should go with the name that is the most used. Again, the names would still be given on the article, but if alomst every game refers to them as just their first name, then I don't see why we have to keep saying their entire names every time. I think most people who opposed mostly only did because of the Super Smash Bros U appearance of the name, and one because a guide gives the full name, but as I stated the last names are unused more often than not. I don't think a few appearances of the names are enough to keep it if just their first names are used much more. ~ Qyzxf (talk)

Two points to keep in mind: first of all, Ludwig von Koopa and Morton Koopa Jr. needs 16 characters to be written, while Wendy O. Koopa requires 14 characters, so it's impractical - maybe even impossible - to have the full names in most games (especially the 3DS ones). Secondly, the Japanese names have always been the shortened ones - the full names were never introduced in Japan -, so a quick translation from Japanese might not use the full names just for this reason.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:23, 29 August 2016 (EDT)

It should be emphasized that removing full names from the article titles doesn't necessarily mean that the wiki suddenly doesn't recognize them: it's mainly following naming protocol. The Koopalings are currently an exception to this, not the rule. On the occasions that the full names do get referenced, it's more often than not supplemental rather than direct game material (although for clarification, Super Smash Bros. Palutena's Guidance easter egg only works in the Wii U version [SSB5?], not Nintendo 3DS version [SSB4]). Character constraints might be a fair observation, but when game texts are reaching a point that we're also getting names like "Shiny Paper Fire Piranha Plant" out of them, I don't think it really holds up much anymore... Other ways this may be treated besides the infobox would be to easily introduce it in the beginning paragraph and/or give a special mention when describing name origin or history, for instance. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:42, 29 August 2016 (EDT)

I noticed a thing, though. Here's the actual part of trhe policy you are citing:

The Super Mario Wiki is an English language wiki, so the name of an article should correspond to the most commonly used English name of the subject, which, given our user and visitor demographics, means the North American name.

Technically talking, if we consider the whole sentence and not just the first part, you can see that all North American names would be correct, so the likely reason why Mario Mario, Luigi mario and Peach Toadstool were dropped is not that they were violating this policy - the probable reason is that they weren't simply no longer used since the '90s even by NOA and therefore it seemed reasonable to change them. It wasn't necessarily a strict rule in place. Here, you can see that the full names are still used, and there's an additional reason why the Koopalings' case is different: Peach, Mario, Luigi and Bowser had a Japanese name before having a North American name, in the case of the Koopalings, the contrary happened: the shortened Japanese names came from the full North American names, that are a reference to musicians and composers with the only possible exception of Larry Koopa and thus make sense only when considered in the full version.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2016 (EDT)

What led to state that 「クッパ」 is exclusively the name of Bowser?

I realized that an edit with important implications was made on the page, saying that 「クッパ」 is used only to refer to Bowser and not to a nonspecific Koopa species (what we call the Koopas). I would like to know what discovery or observation led to this important edit, that might have relevant implications, such as showing that the Italian term Bowserotti, that returned in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, is indeed a translation of 「コクッパ」 that uses the Western name of Bowser properly, but most importantly, showing that the current name of the Koopalings in Japan, 「クッパ7人衆」, still indicates that they are Bowsers instead of just Bowser's minions like the previosuly used term, 「クッパの手下」.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:50, 29 September 2016 (EDT)

"Koopa" has referred to both the clan and the king since day one, so it's a slight misconception. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:35, 30 September 2016 (EDT)

By the way, this is the famous sentence that led to this 「クッパ」 being also the Koopas as reported in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. (twice!):

強力な魔法を操る大ガメクッパの一族が侵略して来ました。

There is that 「の」 that is troubling me much, as it might indeed lead to think that 「クッパ」 is just Bowser even in this sentence, is this the same sentence of the original manual or Encyclopedia revisionism is in act even here? Am I reading too much in that 「の「? (P.S. I'm not trying to compare myself to a professional translator, I just want to find out what particular detail, reinterpreted differently, might have led to this edit - essentially, I suspect that 「大ガメクッパの一族」 was reinterpreted as clan of the large turtle Bowser)--Mister Wu (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2016 (EDT)

I looked at the SMB3 Virtual Console PDF and searched クッパの. It shows up three times in the document: Once in referring to the fortress, once in referring to the castle and once in referring to the anchor. I'm not sure how that reflects the PDF or the Encyclopedia compared to the original or the Super Mario Advance 4 versions. --Thatguy62 (talk) 21:39, 30 September 2016 (EDT)

From the very little I know, 「の」 can be considered similar to our of, and is usually positioned after the name it refers to, so 「クッパの」 means very often of Bowser, it is thus to be expected to found such term in the manual, the problem here is that line above of the SMB manual appears to be the one that led many people to consider 「クッパ」 as also meaning Koopas (at least so it was said in the part that was then removed in the edit), so I wonder if the editor actually found out that indeed, that part could have a different meaning and thus there was no longer evidence that 「クッパ」 is also used to refer to the nonspecific Koopas (tipically, in Japan 「力メ族」, meaning Turtle Tribe, is used instead to refer to the nonspecific Koopas, as you can see in this Japanese bio of Iggy), leading to the edit that has important implications.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:50, 30 September 2016 (EDT)

I've seen cases where "AのB" is interpreted as "A, the B"... A gossip-loving Toad (Talk) 23:29, 6 October 2016 (EDT)

It is the same in the manual and the Encyclopedia, you can find the Japanese manual PDF in the Legends of Localization site. My current intepretation is that the literal translation on that site above is inaccurate. With の, that bit about Bowser and his tribe would be "Great Turtle Bowser's tribe" instead of "the Koopa, a tribe of large turtles". If my intepretation is true, we have assumed the usage of クッパ wrong; it has always referred to a single person, not a tribe. Even so, there is the fact that Bowser's army is nowadays called クッパ軍団 in Japan, so クッパ as the name of the tribe in current games is obsolete.
As for クッパ7人衆... well, we translate it as "Team of 7 Bowsers", and it seems to be best we have. But there's a bit in the Japanese version of Paper Jam where Bowser refers to the Koopalings as 「あいつら... 7人衆」, which would be near-literally "Those... seven". Thus I speculate they are called クッパ7人衆 because of their connection to Bowser, not because they are Bowsers. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 05:57, 1 October 2016 (EDT)

Hold up, I just noticed the edit in question is mine. I may have taken out the bit about クッパ referring to Koopa Troop because I thought of it as irrelevant, but what I've said here actually justifies it: 「大ガメクッパの一族」 is about Koopa's tribe, not about the tribe named Koopa. Same manual story also mentions カメ一族 "the Turtle Tribe". クッパ軍団 "Koopa Corps" came later, I don't know when, but it wasn't in the Japanese SMB3 manual, unlike カメ一族. It's also in the Encyclopedia, so there's no revisionism involved there. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 07:32, 1 October 2016 (EDT)

One last thing: Even though the English localization of the manual and Mr. Mato's translation on his site say that the Koopa Tribe excels at powerful magic, these two scans show only Bowser using magic. I believe this is enough proof to say it's about Bowser only, and not the Turtle Tribe. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:52, 25 November 2016 (EST)

reclassified?

I'm not entirely sure but I think I recall, one of the Koopalings call Bowser their father in Color Splash. Personally I don't believe I ever read anything stating their his kids, I could just tell they were his kids, They do seem quite similar to Bowser. Hmmmm, Perhaps it's their shells, has anybody else noticed that those who appear to be related to Bowser all have spiky shells?Pikmin theories (talk) 23:21, 11 October 2016 (EDT)

I suggest you to read the appropriate section. They were created as Bowser's children, and presented as such in the Japanese SMB3 manual (and of course in the Western translations too). They were portrayed as such until Super Smash Bros. Brawl and New Super Mario Bros. Wii, probably because Bowser Jr. took their role as Bowser's child. Since then, Japanese material related to the new games never mentioned the original relationship again, and even other Japanese material slowly started not mentioning it, to the point that the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. contains an incorrect story of SMB3 not to report it. In the West, more references to the original relationship were made, especially in Europe, with the UK site of SMB3 still considering them Bowser's offspring and the German version of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam even having a line of Morton in which he calls Bowser father and then correct himself. I think you should try to contextualize this line from Color Splash better (i.e. remember and report who is the Koopaling saying this and when, and also try pointing at a video, so I can see if the line is from the UK version), as the North American version surely didn't have the Koopalings calling Bowser father in their main lines of dialogue (the ones triggered during a normal flow of the battles).--Mister Wu (talk) 23:36, 11 October 2016 (EDT)

First off I DID read that section before writing this, second it wasn't during a battle, and third I'm in US so it's the North Americian version, I believe it was one of the first few Koopalings battled, I'm pretty sure it was before Wendy, it might have been Morton, or I could've imagined it, (although Morton does talk funny in this game) If it was Morton I think it might have been when Huey introduced themselves to him, I think it was FATHER BOWSER or something like that, but if it's not Morton then either I imagined it or it was one of the others before Wendy, so that narrows it down a bit.Pikmin theories (talk) 19:31, 12 October 2016 (EDT)

I don't have the game, but from what I see, Morton merely says "Master" and doesn't namedrop Bowser, Wendy calls him "Mister Bowser" and Iggy doesn't mention Bowser by name either, judging from his quotes section. That leaves Ludwig and he only refers to him as "Lord Bowser". --Thatguy62 (talk) 20:28, 12 October 2016 (EDT)

Sorry, I misread what you stated. While all members of Bowser's species have spiky shells, Bowser's species is actually distinguished from the other species of Koopas by an incomplete shell, that leaves belly plates disconnected from the rear shell. The lines outside the battles,as well as the lines when you battle the Koopalings in the right way have been transcribed and you can find them in the individual Koopalings' pages. They don't mention Father Bowser. There are however additional lines when you do something wrong (e.g.: you waste the Thing Card needed to win the battle) and all of them haven't been found yet. I'm wondering if you incurred in one of them.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2016 (EDT)

Funnily enough, in the Japanese version, the term used by Morton is 「おかた」 which doesn't seem to mean master, but rather this gentleman. Probably the Japanese version doesn't want to reveal anything before the cutscene in which Bowser is introduced. I will see what are the other terms used to refer to Bowser (although I expect them to be like they are in the English version)--Mister Wu (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2016 (EDT)

Here you an see how Ludwig, Wendy, Larry and Roy call Bowser in the Japanese version. The term used is pretty much always 「クッパ様」, which in English sounds like Master Bowser, it's surprising to see how the Treehouse team translated this term in various different ways depending on the character. Still, as expected, they don't call Bowser father in the Japanese version as well.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:03, 17 October 2016 (EDT)

More Japanese material, beside Super Mario Bros. 3, that showed that the koopalings were Bowser's children

I just found this blog entry that has more Japanese material, beside that related to Super Mario Bros. 3, that showed that the Koopalings were considered Bowser's children, going as far as Super Smash Bros. Melee. I think we should now cover this, as it shows it was indeed since Super Smash Bros. Brawl that the retcon started to be formalized, not before.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:00, 26 October 2016 (EDT)

I actually once found this blog myself, but never decided to post it... That said, the SMW Koopaling pic appears to be from the early phases of SMW development. I base it on the fact in that picture they still have the name コクッパ7兄弟 and are called Bowser's kids, but then they became コクッパ7人衆 and the familial references to Bowser were omitted. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:10, 26 October 2016 (EDT)

The images are indeed from SMB3, still I think we should try to track from which characters' pictures book (「キャラクター図鑑」) they come; by the way, has anyone investigated the related material from Shogakukan (both he story/quiz books related to Super Mario World and the official guide)? If not I might start investigate once I'm able to afford them. In general, you probably were not wrong at the time in not giving too much importance to these two pictures, however looking at how the Family Relationship section was written before the rediscovery I think they are now quite relevant as they show that some residual continuity in the mention of the orginal relatiosnhip was still present beyond the reuse of the original SMB3 story in SMA4, I think the section was not clear enough in this, as the part about Super Smash Bros. Melee didn't specify that even in the Japanese version the Koopalings were considered Bowser's children. To sum it up, I think it would be nice to track down the source of the SMW card and also to recap how much SMW-related material from Shogakukan was examined to see if it might be useful to import it.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:21, 26 October 2016 (EDT)

The Koopalings' origin might be dated earlier than expected

Thanks to Twentytwofiftyseven I finally have a translation of the text of this image:

「当初のクッパはまったくまとまりのない絵でした。
このスケッチのバージョンになるまでには
小田部、手？両氏の共同作業が？？きました。」

At first Bowser's appearance was not entirely settled. In order to get to this version of the sketch, the collaborative work of Yōichi Kotabe and [someone else] [did something].

I could indentify te second person as being Takashi Tezuka (「手塚」), which would make sense as he was mainly involved with character design back then.
However, the most important thing is that this picture is not a misplaced picture about the Koopalings (as I thought at the beginning), it is about Bowser's first redesign. Now, this happened around the time of Super Mario Bros. 2 in Japan (Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels), as we can see from these Japanese images of the time, which feature an already redesigned Bowser:

So, this means two things:

1. The sketch being placed on Super Mario Bros. 2 page is appropriate, as Bowser's redesign happened before the game was released
2. Despite Bowser's design not being finalized in this sketch, four Koopalings (Morton Koopa Jr., Lemmy Koopa, Iggy Koopa and Wendy O. Koopa) are already there, likely meaning that their origin can be traced back to the time Bowser was redesigned for the first time

We can also consider how Bowser's first redesign had blue eyes (as can be seen even in this card from 1986) and three Koopalings too, two of which appear in this image, but I already added this in an even more appropriate context, so I won't go down with this speculation.
Anyway, I would like your opinion on the matter, until we have the full text transcribed (hopefully someday I will be able to afford the 2010 reprint of the Shogakukan Super Mario Collection guide from which this image was likely taken) I down't know how far we can go before going into speculation territory, still I thought this was a relevant or at least interesting discovery.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:39, 11 November 2016 (EST)

What is the name and publisher/editor of this Japanese Mario Characters' Book?

I just found this Mario Characters' Book of the late SNES era (after Yoshi's Safari) that might have some interesting information, but scans of the covers and of the front page are missing, so it is impossible to tell if it is an official Nintendo book (like the Shogakukan guides) or if it is just a licensed third party book, that might have inaccuracies in the depictions of the characters. Do you know what its title and editor and publisher are and if it is an official Nintendo book or just a licensed third party book?--Mister Wu (talk) 06:26, 28 December 2016 (EST)

Found it! This known as 「パーフェクト版 マリオキャラクター大事典」, translated in this wiki as Mario Character Encyclopedia: Perfect Edition, it's a book published in the 1994 by Shogakukan, with the copyright of Nintendo as well, and it is a gold mine of characters' depictions in the SNES era! I will deal first and foremost with the Koopalings' stuff, as it seems to confirm that they are Bowser's biological children and it also includes some precious bios, that state that Larry is the youngest Koopaling and Morton and Roy are the heaviest, while Iggy is a "student".--Mister Wu (talk) 13:56, 29 December 2016 (EST)

I guess this goes here...

This IP added {{SSB fighter infobox}} to all of teh Koopalings' articles. We don't use those for palette swaps, right?
Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 20:42, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Alph uses it, too. I don't see a reason not to, either. Mario JC 22:36, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Bowser Jr.

This line in Bowserr Jr.’s Journey seems to suggest Bowser Jr. considers himself to be a Koopaling: https://imgur.com/gallery/GtDWsq4 Seandwalsh (talk) 11:18, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Unsurprisingly, this is completely absent from the Japanese version, in which Bowser Jr. just says that he'll definitely find everyone. I wonder what the English localizers were trying to do, since Bowser Jr.'s bio in the official English site already states that he's the only son of Bowser and as such, he's completely ditstinct from the Koopalings (that in Japan are still known as Team of 7 Bowsers, making Bowser Jr.'s addition impossible).--Mister Wu (talk) 13:40, 10 February 2019 (EST)

In this case, "Koopaling" is probably being used as a literal "young Koopa" thing rather than specifically a reference to the elite group. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:55, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Move all Koopaling articles to just their first names

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

do not rename 10-13
I always found it weird that our articles for the Koopalings use their full names rather than their more commonly used first names. For example, Larry's article is named Larry Koopa, and Wendy's article is named Wendy O. Koopa. As far as I know, these full names have been rarely used since Mario 3, and their first names are their current and most commonly used names. Another oddity is that the Koopalings seem to be the only characters whose articles use their full names. Mario's isn't called "Mario Mario", Peach's isn't called "Princess Peach Toadstool", and Bowser's isn't called "King Bowser Koopa". No, they use their first and most commonly used names (alongside any commonly recognized titles, in Peach's case). So why do the Koopalings use their full names for their article names?

If extra clarification is necessary, the following renames will occur if this proposal passes:

• Larry Koopa -> Larry
• Morton Koopa Jr. -> Morton
• Iggy Koopa -> Iggy
• Wendy O. Koopa -> Wendy
• Roy Koopa -> Roy
• Lemmy Koopa -> Lemmy
• Ludwig von Koopa -> Ludwig

Proposer: YoshiFlutterJump (talk)
Deadline: May 28, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. YoshiFlutterJump (talk) Per my proposal.
2. LinkTheLefty (talk) The first names are overwhelmingly commonly used over the full names, and it is not even remotely close. Outside of the Super Smash Bros. series featuring easter egg dialog in for Wii U that was reused in Ultimate (along with many of the other guidance clips), the first and last time that all of the Koopalings were directly referred to with their full names in an actual Mario game was in the localized versions of Super Mario World (as well as being the second and last time in any manual), and it comes from a time when game text was much more limited. The Koopalings have been in several new Mario games since the last proposal, and not once have their full names been mentioned in new capacity. It quite possibly does not reflect their "current story" with Bowser (Koopa). I understand wanting to keep them around for the historic value of the Koopalings' full names originating from localization, which is why I suggest that they clearly still have a place in character introductions and appropriate spaces, but as article titles they are seriously dated and pushing policy. The full name parameter in the character infoboxes was made for such cases.
3. Niiue (talk) Per all.
4. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Per all. Their last names have not been used in... a long time. I'm not sure exactly how long. But in SSBU and M&L:PJ, they are explicitly referred to by only their first names, with their last names nowhere to be found. It makes no sense to use the Koopalings' full names, but not characters like Mario, Peach, Bowser, Count Bleck, Mollusque-Lanceur, etc, etc, etc.
5. TheDarkStar (talk) Per all.
6. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Just because they are in use doesn't mean we have to use the full names. We don't have "King Bowser" as Bowser's article title, and that's still used (unlike "King Bowser Koopa"), Squirps's article isn't "Squirps Korgaline Squirpia", A. Coz and B. Coz aren't titled as "A. Costello" and "B. Costello," the list goes on. Anyway,s the current setup is annoying and requires unnecessary piping quite often.
7. 7feetunder (talk) This is the entire reason that the "full name" infobox parameter - you know, the one whose widespread misuse I was complaining about some time ago (and has since been fixed) - exists. Several character articles do not use full names for titles. Also, "Roy Koopa needs an identifier because of the Fire Emblem character" sounds like a joke, not a serious argument. There is no way in hell that a Fire Emblem character is anywhere near as relevant to the Mario franchise as the Koopalings. The Koopalings would easily take priority over any characters that share their first names, so that is absolutely not an issue.
8. bwburke94 (talk) Per proposal. There's no reason to keep the last names here.
9. Qyzxf (talk) I've made this same proposal about 3 years ago and I stand by my point.
10. GrainedCargo192 (talk) I haven't seen anyone refer to them by their full names, so there's no point in having the full names as the page title. Move it to the infobox or something.

Oppose

1. Alex95 (talk) - This just feels like a bad move to me. "Koopa" is in their name and is used quite frequently in the games. "Mario Mario" hasn't been used in any video game, same with "King Bowser Koopa" as far as I know; they're only used elsewhere. Per Mister Wu.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Alex95. I see no reason to change anything at all. These names are still currently used. Also, see SmokedChili's vote below. Same for further below.
3. SmokedChili (talk) The latest use of a full Koopaling name is actually in NSMBU DX Challenge description for Larry's Groundless Battle; it is more significant than SSBU's reused Guidances due to being a piece of text that could have been easily edited. One significant upside for using the Koopalings' full names is that they also double as identifiers and, imo, are far preferable to something like "(Super Mario)", which we'd have to use for Roy Koopa because of Roy (Fire Emblem). Mario and Bowser's "full names" don't come from Nintendo-made games, and "Peach Toadstool" seems to be a result of making sense of her awkwardly signed letter in SM64.
4. Mister Wu (talk) Larry Koopa was used in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games ("Larry Koopa's Theme"), and is used in merchandise as well. The Spanish translation of the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. also uses the full names, even though the original text couldn't have them, as they never were introduced in Japan. Well, without going into other languages, Monopoly Gamer, released in 2017, uses the full names of the Koopalings, (here you can see all the Koopalings cards). The full name is the full name, just like Miles "Tails" Prower. We mainly call him Tails, but Miles Prower is his official name.
5. Obsessive Mario Fan (talk) We should instead leave their first names as redirects.
6. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per all.
7. Fieke Meowstic (talk) Per all.
8. Weedle McHairybug (talk) Per Mister Wu and various others, and besides, if we're to use the Japanese localization translations of games as any basis, we might as well rename Bowser's article to "Koopa" simply because that's his actual name in Japan.
9. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Mister Wu, the circumstances surrounding whether Koopa is used or not often seems based on the fact that it just straight up doesn't exist anymore in the Japanese versions, meanwhile material with a western origin seems to keep the name.
10. EDShoot (talk) Per all.
11. WeirdDave13 (talk) Per all. I don't know what is about it, but seeing the articles names with just their first name just seems, unnatural to me.
12. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
13. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.

Comments

@Alex95: "Quite frequently"? Outside of Mario 3, their full names haven't really been used at all. They're almost always referred to by their first names, and that's how they're best recognized. Few people are going to type "Ludwig von Koopa" to find info on Ludwig. I know that redirects exist for that purpose, but shouldn't the article name reflect the latest and most commonly used names of the Koopalings? -YFJ (talk · edits) 21:18, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

...Could've sworn I've seen the full name in more titles. Probably a poor excuse, but I'm really not sure on these moves, I just don't like the idea. But I do agree that such a move would work with policy, so I'll just remove my vote for now. 11:47, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

@FanOfYoshi: "I see no reason to change anything at all" is a rather weak argument tbh. Doing nothing just because we don't necessarily have to will result in barely anything getting changed at all. It's all a matter of "it's okay now, but could it be better?" I gave reasons to change it; whether you agree with them or not is entirely your decision, but reasons on the opposing side certainly exist. -YFJ (talk · edits) 01:18, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

Also, it's really in current use by technicality, as they only appeared in a recent Super Smash Bros. game by way of reused four-year-old dialog that most players are just not going to see. Again, the Koopalings have appeared in eight other titles so far since then and their full names are nowhere to be found in any of them. These are not literal translations as one glance at the family relationship section would show that localizers have plenty of leeway to make Koopaling jokes and connections that do not exist in the Japanese text (suggesting they are still being related to each other, minor references to their "original story" with Bowser and so on). Additionally, even the full names' classic manual references are something that completely disappear in re-releases, such as Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition. By all accounts, policy should dictate that the article titles be switched to the first names. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:30, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

@SmokedChili: Would an identifier really be necessary for Roy? Spike doesn't have an identifier despite the existence of Spike (film character) and Spike (Mario Tennis), and those are actually from the Mario franchise, unlike Fire Emblem Roy. Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 10:57, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

The fact that minor ported text happens to be verbatim and possibly overlooked (again, just like an identical optional line in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate) means little in the long run - in a franchise where the translators have relative freedom, it must contend with all the instances and appearances where the Koopalings are referred to with (only) their first names. By my count, that is about fifteen games straight of material. If we backed off every few years a random localizer threw fans a bone and referenced older material out of the blue, our Dr. Eggman article would be Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik by those standards, except that is plainly and obviously not the common name and has no place being the title. That is the whole point of this proposal - "the name of an article should correspond to the most commonly used English name of the subject" and the fact that this topic keeps getting brought up every so often shows that it is cyclical. Also, as mentioned, there should be no conflict with Roy because it already currently redirects to Roy Koopa as the most recurring subject despite a disambiguation page existing separately. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:44, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

Maybe hold off until Super Mario Maker 2, but i don't think they will appear. More info should come in. -- FanOfYoshi 13:13, May 14, 2019 (EDT)

@Opposers: As LinkTheLefty (talk) pointed out, MarioWiki:Naming states that article titles should use the most commonly used official names. So what if one or two modern games have a minor reference to their full names? The most commonly used names are their first ones alone, and I ask that you reconsider your votes in light of this. -YFJ (talk · edits) 00:02, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

@Mister Wu: You're looking at this from a merchandising angle; I'm looking at this at an in-game angle, which would be the prioritized title by naming policy. Shouldn't the fact that this detail gets increasingly pushed aside to obscure side-text (Boost Mode, Palutena's Guidance, both of which were only recently ported...) over new main spaces that are openly front and center (dialog/profiles, character selection...) frankly speak for itself? LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:42, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

There's a good reason for my choice: the Japanese text exclusively uses the first names as the full names were never introduced in Japan. The localizers therefore just directly translate the shortened names, adding the full names would be unnecessary and perhaps even unpractical since the original text isn't meant to use them to begin with (this includes UI layouts). But when Western material comes out - merchandise in this case, which as far as I know is most of the Mario-related material that comes directly from the West - the Western names is used, which quite often is the full name. This is why merchandising is important - translation of Japanese material will use the first name most if not all the times, since that's the only material the localizers deal with.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:53, May 16, 2019 (EDT)

Why do we need to do this??? [-]€40 vv@(talk · edits) 09:28, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

@HEROMARIO: It's not "unprofessional" to use the most commonly used names for article titles. Would it really be "professional" at all to use "Mario Mario" or "Luigi Mario" or "Princess Peach Toadstool" or "King Bowser Koopa" as our article names? Policy says that the most commonly used names should be our article names. The only thing that would be "unprofessional" about this is violating policy, and if you oppose this, please explain why you think it wouldn't violate policy. Dismissing this as "unprofessional" won't cut it. -YFJ (talk · edits) 09:57, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

While the "unprofessional" term wasn't appropriate (as the vote was removed) the examples you cite are inappropriate as well. The merchandise doesn't use "Mario Mario", "Luigi Mario", "Princess Peach Toadstool" and "Bowser Koopa", it uses the full names of the Koopalings, though, even in recently released material.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:48, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

I get that those names would be absolutely absurd and far more unfitting than the Koopaling full names. It's just that the user seemed to be implying that full names are "professional" for article titles...which usually isn't the case. -YFJ (talk · edits) 12:00, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

Do we have any example of articles with full names? -- FanOfYoshi 14:36, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

Our Sonic character articles use full names for some reason, which is kinda dumb considering that they're not ever called that in the Mario franchise other than the occasional bio. But other than that, not that I know of. -YFJ (talk · edits) 15:10, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

Well, as far as Sonic characters are concerned, Sonic Retro uses the full names, I guess following them on this convention seemed a sensible thing to do. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm not stating that the whole point of full names being professional was valid, just that we can't rely on cases like Peach Toadstool or Bowser Koopa to draw conclusions for the case of the Koopalings' full names.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:46, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

Last I checked they didn't say "Dr. 'Eggman' Robotnik" though, so not necessarily (with the first name of "Ivo" not being brought up in the games/manuals for a while, I didn't include it for this example). They use the names commonly used in manual bio sections, which in that case includes the "the"s and Tails's full name. Anyways, the argument for this is that, while they are used and referenced a bit, they aren't used frequently enough to be considered relevant enough for the titles. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:08, May 18, 2019 (EDT)

Hmmm... I'm not sure about the Sonic characters. -- FanOfYoshi 03:58, May 19, 2019 (EDT)

Since a few points were made that used some rather absolute wording, I feel the need to clarify this: the shortened names can be found in Western merchandise as well, and they aren't exclusively Japanese names. The main difference is that when it comes to Western merchandise, Nitnendo of America isn't shy of using the full names, as I showed in my points. This is very likely due the history of the names of the Koopalings, which were originally unnamed in Japan and were eventually given names by NOA (Dayvv Brooks, to be more precise). The names that were given are the full names. To answer another very valid point made: in my opinion the application of the wiki policy can be discussed because the case of the Koopalings' names is an exception in and by itself. Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser were originally been given a name in Japan that then was "completed" by NOA, leading to the current full names. As a result, those full names have barely been acknowledged by Nintendo, and aren't really to be found in the vast majority of the material from NOA. The case of the Koopalings is inevitably different, as in this case the full names are the original names, and the shortened names are derived. This results in those full names not really being abandoned, especially when material directly from the West is concerned. To be clear, I don't think we can't draw conclusion from this proposals to be applied to the names of other characters like the aforementioned Peach and Bowser, we also can't really use the outcome of this proposal for cases like Mollusque-Lanceur until we find a broader use of the full names.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:41, May 22, 2019 (EDT)

Per Mister Wu. -- FanOfYoshi 15:27, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

I don't see any reason why we can't have the Koopalings with their full names. -- FanOfYoshi 12:58, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

It's unnecessary and violates the exact words of policy, that's why. The opposition's argument is that it's an exception to policy, not that "we don't have to so what's the point". The latter is a pretty weak argument that I might even call invalid. -YFJ (talk · edits) 13:05, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

By the way, the policy actually states The Super Mario Wiki is an English language wiki, so the name of an article should correspond to the most commonly used English name of the subject, which, given our user and visitor demographics, means the North American name. The actual meaning is given, and it's not the most used English name in the games (the games aren't even specified nor actually mentioned, so the merchandise using the full names defintiely would get in the way), but is rather the North American name, which in this case is definitely the full names, as they are still used in merchandise and even in text of recent games such as New Super Mario Bros. U DX, making the priority ordering of the sources still unable to give a definite answer. Still, I don't think the usage in games should be disregarded, and as such the proposal has its merits, but the policy definitely doesn't exclusively support the view of the supporters of this proposal when the full sentence is read.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:43, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

I do see your point, but regardless of the reason, the first name is used far more than the full names, even if it's just because the full name won't fit. Unless I'm mistaken, the policy never said that there's a priority naming preference toward merchandise originating in Western areas. The use of the full names in NSMBUDX and SSBU are just reused text from older games, so that would make the last time the full names were actually used in original text in-game back in 2014, with Smash Wii U. But even then, the full names fell out of frequent use as early as Super Mario World. We have a full name parameter in the infobox for this purpose anyway, and more often than not, we end up piping our links to use only the first names. There is some justification in keeping the full names here (unlike Sonic the Hedgehog or Cloud Strife), but I just don't feel it's enough. -YFJ (talk · edits) 20:05, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Technically, the Koopalings were nameless in the Japanese version and didn't even have frequently-used names until I think their second coming when they started becoming playable and appeared in more RPGs, so there's that to take into consideration. And quite frankly, it's because of the West that they even have names at all, so it's ultimately better to just use their full names. I mean, if we were to go by the Japanese names, we might as well rename Bowser to Koopa, since that is his Japanese name. Quite frankly using that, we should just stick with the full names. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 20:12, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Mario & Sonic is actually a 2016 game, but let's get back to the important point: the proposal is indeed valid and has its reasons to be supported. I only thought it was important to point out how that specific part of the policy contains an explanation that wouldn't actually disallow the use of the full names. The proposal as a whole wasn't built around this point, so this ultimately doesn't change how valid it is.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:29, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

I see... -- FanOfYoshi 07:31, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

What other article use the full name besides the Sonic characters pages? -- FanOfYoshi 05:49, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

The full names are frequently used as article names as far as Smash is concerned. Examples include Samus Aran, Fox McCloud, Falco Lombardi and the aforementioned Cloud Strife. Don't forget that many Mario characters don't originally have a surname (e.g.: Mario, Peach and Bowser didn't have a surname when they were given a name for the first time), unlike the Koopalings whose name was conceived with the surname.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:13, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

I never really understood why the Sonic and Smash characters are titled with their full names when games, at least in the context of Mario-related media, do not use them the majority of the time. If it's due to third-party/series status, then they're not at all comparable to the naming of the Koopalings. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:13, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

My point is that we're not a Metroid or a Star Fox or a Final Fantasy wiki. We're a Mario wiki, and our main focus is the characters' roles in Mario-related games. To me, that includes names. And outside the occasional trophy bio, not one of them actually have their full names in general use in Mario-related games. -YFJ (talk · edits) 10:46, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

Maybe not, but we still have articles on them thanks to Super Smash Bros., which Mario IS a part of, and aside from that, marketing had them being listed by their full names anyway. And besides, originally, the Koopalings were nameless in Japan, lacking individual names at least. It was NOA that gave them names at all, let alone full names. If we were to go far, we probably would have to delete the articles altogether simply to match up with the Japanese names, or lack thereof. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 11:49, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

You don't seem to have understood my point. I said we should still have the articles for those non-Mario characters, but that there's little justification in keeping the full names for them, as they have almost never been called by their full names in any Mario-related game. And this proposal isn't about using the Japanese names, so please stop making that comparison. It's about using the English name in most common use. -YFJ (talk · edits) 12:35, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

So, just a question, why isn't it a good idea to rename "Princess Peach" to "Peach" using the same logic of this proposal? I see "commonly recognized titles" being the distinction, but is that a meaningful distinction? Isn't "Koopa" a commonly recognized title for these Koopalings? Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 17:28, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

I'd be fine with that myself, but Peach/Princess Peach is a lot more varying, sorta like Koopa/Koopa Troopa. The surnames here are very rarely used at all anymore, and mostly tie into the since-retconned detail of them being Bowser's children.. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:46, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

I'm neutral ln this. A lot of people just refer them by name without the Koopa in it, but most games include Koopa in their name. White Lightning 19:08, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

Correction: Most modern games use the first name only without the "Koopa", while most Western merchandise uses the full names with the "Koopa". -YFJ (talk · edits) 19:27, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

Artwork in infoboxes

I figured this was the best place to talk about this, I feel like the artwork used for some of the Koopalings should be changed to their New Super Mario Bros. Wii artwork, because some of their New Super Mario Bros. U artwork has certain traits that are only used for that game and nothing else (Wendy on ice skates, Morton with a hammer, Lemmy with a bomb, and Roy with a Bill Blaster; Larry, Iggy and Ludwig are fine as they are though), and all their artworks for New Super Mario Bros. Wii has them with their magic wands which they use for most of their appearences and is even reused for certain games like Mario Kart Tour and Super Mario Maker 2. I say this because artwork in infoboxes are normally not supposed to use traits or designs exclusive to one game or series, and I think the four Koopalings I mentioned break that rule. Mario Sakuraba (talk) 19:18, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

Effectively, only Paper Mario: Color Splash referenced Morton using a hammer and Roy using a Bullet Blaster, and even then, those were actually weapons derived from the magic wands, not the same weapons featured in New Super Mario Bros. U. At this point we can revert to the New super Mario Bros. Wii artwork for those four Koopalings, while the other three (well, two: Larry has the same artwork in both games) should stay with the New Super Mario Bros. U artwork since it doesn't have traits unique to the latter game and thus doesn't break any rule.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:58, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

Do you think the same should be done for the main Koopaling article too? Mario Sakuraba (talk) 20:54, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

Yes, it makes sense to do so in this page as well.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:17, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

Mario's Early Days "10 Little Koopas" counting song

In the song 10 Little Koopas they count 10 count 10 koopas (koopalings + bowser) Link to song

1. Iggy Koopa
2. Roy Koopa
3. Larry Koopa
4. ?
5. Ludwig von Koopa
6. Lemmy Koopa
7. Morton Koopa Jr.
8. Wendy O. Koopa
9. ?
10. Bowser

Because of this should we change the page from "are a seven-member clan" to "are nine-member clan" or "are a nine-member clan, with seven notable members"? Also what should we call koopalings 4 and 9? If we do change that would we also change the picture on the page to one that includes all 9 members?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.81.132.165 (talk).

It never called them KoopaLINGS, and the design for those two has a beak anyways, indicating those are just Troopas. Either way I fail to see how a one-off third-party edutainment title should have any sort of priority. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:14, March 15, 2021 (EDT)

They are a "seven-member clan" in everything else, so this will just be way too confusing. Nightwicked Bowser 19:17, March 15, 2021 (EDT)

If anything, in the current Japanese material and game text they are the 「クッパ7人衆」, i.e. Team of 7 Bowsers, and Mario Kart Tour explicitly features said group as the group of the seven usual Koopalings, so we'd follow the most recent rendition in any case.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:45, March 16, 2021 (EDT)

About that interview in Mario Mania

So, this is what TV Tropes says on their Common Knowledge/Super Mario Bros page: It's been stated matter-of-factly that the seven Koopalings were "based on" the creators of Super Mario Bros. 3. This comes from a somewhat clumsily-translated interview with Miyamoto in the Nintendo Power "Mario Mania" player's guide. Read in full context, it's clear that Miyamoto is saying the various creators of SMB3 each got to design their own Koopaling, not that the Koopalings were based on themselves in some way. This explains why none of the Koopalings really "match" each other, from a design perspective, and why there is a female one, despite the fact that no women were part of the design team. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 21:25, January 8, 2024 (EST)

"Little Koopa"

So I just found that in SMB3, if you re-enter a castle after failing an airship level, Toad has a different message where he addresses the Koopaling as "Little Koopa" (the game's capitalization, written as a name, specifically "Get the Magic Wand back from Little Koopa"). This is a direct translation of their Japanese name. How should we incorporate this into the article? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:08, October 22, 2024 (EDT)

I have added that bit of information to their Super Mario Bros. 3 section in their History page. Feel free to adjust it. — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 08:15, December 16, 2024 (EST)