MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
<br clear="all">
===Revise how long proposals take: "IT'S ABOUT (how much) TIME (they take)"===
{| align="center" style="width: 85%; background-color: #f1f1de; border: 2px solid #996; padding: 5px; color:black"
Currently, the way our proposals are set up, there are two deadlines. On the main proposals page, they last for 1 week. On talk pages, or for writing guidelines proposals, 2 weeks. Now, this is ''fine.'' We're not going to claim this is like, some total deal-breaker or nothing. However, lately, [[MarioWiki talk:Proposals#Why the inconsistency?|there have been a few concerns raised about this inconsistency]], and we figured, what the hey, why not put it up to vote?
|'''Proposals''' can be new features (such as an extension), removal of a previously added feature that has tired out, or new policies that must be approved via [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] before any action(s) are done.
 
*Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., "I like this idea!"
A few concerns we've seen, both from others and from us, in no particular order;
*"Vote" periods last for one week.
* The largest one to us is just that, unless a proposal is really specific, it's just not worth it to make a talk page proposal over a main page proposal, since it'll end faster. The only thing immune to this are writing guidelines proposals.
*All past proposals are [[/Archive|archived]].
* While the proposals themselves are different lengths, the duration before you can make a second proposal on them remains the same.  Thusly, if you want to set a policy in stone, you would actually want to make it a writing guidelines/talk page proposal over an ordinary one, as that means it will last for, at least, 6 weeks (4 weeks for the cooldown, and 2 weeks to put it to proposal again.)
|}
* Lastly, talk page proposals just inherently take longer to happen. This can be an issue if their changes are, overall, quite small (like a simple merge/split or rename), or the consensus is reached very quickly; this stings when an ordinary proposal would happen twice as fast with the exact same amount of votes!
A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code <nowiki>{{user|</nowiki>''User name''<nowiki>}}</nowiki>. '''Signing with the signature code <nowiki>~~~(~)</nowiki> is not allowed''' due to technical issues.
 
Now, there's a few ways you can go about this, but there's one in particular we've taken a liking to: uh, just make all proposals take '''2''' weeks, lmao.
 
"BUT CAM & TORI!", we hear you shout, "BUT YOU SAID 2 WEEKS PROPOSALS TAKE TOO LONG??? WHY WOULD YOU CHANGE THEM TO SOMETHING YOU HATE???", and to that we say... No! We actually like the 2 weeks proposals! They have a distinct benefit to them! The problem is that they're juxtaposed with the 1 week proposals. Let's run through those same bullet points.
* If all proposals were 2 weeks, well, there's no real loss to making a talk page proposal over a main proposal page proposal, as they'll all last 2 weeks anyways. (Sure, a proposal can take longer if there's a tie, but that just happens for all proposals anyways.)
* There's also no incentive to make a talk page proposal/writing guideline proposal if you particularly want your porposal to stick around, as again, now ''every'' proposal is guaranteed to last for, at the very least, 6 weeks.
* Now. While it's annoying that all proposals will take 2 weeks, despite the inherent risk of some coming to their consensuses much faster than the deadlines, for one, [[Talk:Alien (Club Nintendo)#ANTI-ALIEN ALARM!!! (Delete this article)|this is also an issue with talk page proposals as-is]]. For two, the extra time can offer extra time for new information to come to light or for particularly close votes to make their cases and form a proper consensus, without needing a tiebreaker. Lastly, if it's really ''that'' big of an issue, we could perhaps create a rule that if a proposal comes to a particularly large consensus a week in, it'll pass early (the finer details would be created as necessary).
 
There is, of course, the alternative of making all proposals '''1''' week. While we realize this does also resolve a lot of things, it does also necessarily mean that some proposals that would want to happen slower, now don't have that time, and are rushed. Even making only talk page proposals take only 1 week means that Writing Guideline proposals will be at a unique disadvantage for how long they take/an advantage for how long they last if they pass. (And of course, we could just leave everything as they are, but that goes without saying.) That being said, we ''have'' provided options for these, and you're free to make your case for these.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Make all proposals last for 2 weeks====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} If it's not obvious, this is our primary option; we're a big fan of the idea of global 2 week proposals!. Even with their caveats, in the worst-case scenario, we could make a clause to prevent proposals for lasting too long if they reach their consensus early, or we could simply revert back to the current system. We think the added consistency and preventing of shenanigans is very potent, and it also means that you have to put a bit more thought into your proposal as you make it. Patience fans will be eating ''good'' if this passes.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal and what was said [[MarioWiki talk:Proposals#Why the inconsistency?|here]]. However, I'd also be fine with an option to just shorten writing guidelines proposals to be one week. I don't really understand the third option here, writing guidelines proposals being two weeks felt to me like the worst inconsistency of the bunch. I still don't see what about "writing guidelines" specifically means they inherently need more time than the other categories on this page.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Regular proposals and TPPs are just as visible as one another and should be treated equally, ''especially'' when regular page proposals can be the home of very important decisions (such as this one!) and are just given 1 week. Per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} 1 week proposals have always felt a little short to me. I'd rather err on the side of some proposals running a little longer than needed than not having enough discussion time (I don't like banking on a controversial proposal tying). Having to wait an extra week to implement a proposal isn't the end of the world anyway - proposals are rarely, if ever, urgent enough that an extra week with no change would be detrimental to the wiki (and if that were the case, the change should probably come immediately from wiki staff).
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. Giving an extra week to discuss and vote on proposals is a good thing.
#{{User|Drago}} Per Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per, I never got why sitewide ones always got ''less'' time to discuss.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal and the talk page discussion.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} I feel like the inconsistency is not justified, and one week may be too short to make an informed decision.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all. I was one of the people who participated in the conversation that sparked this proposal, and my reasons are stated there.
 
====Make all proposals last for 1 week====
 
====Make all proposals except for writing guidelines proposals last for 1 week====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option. While we like this much less, we do see the merit of making Talk Page Proposals 1 week, and it's not exactly the end-all-be-all. However, we would ''vastly'' prefer 2-week proposals, and keeping Writing Guidelines proposals 2-week is kind of a necessary evil to prevent them from being too rushed for their own good. However, compared to truly ''all'' 1-week proposals, this is better... though, not as good as all 2-week proposals.
#{{user|7feetunder}} For me, it's either this or bust. [[Talk:Ankoopa#What_to_do_with_this_article|New information coming to light can still invalidate a proposal's entire premise too late and require a counterproposal even with a 2 week deadline]], so extending the deadline of main page props to 2 weeks won't stop that from happening from time to time. Most proposals that don't reach a consensus in a week will probably require extensions anyway. TPPs being less "visible" than main page proposals was more of an issue back when no quorums were immediate, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/58#Overhaul_the_no_quorum_proposal_rule_.28.238.29|but that's no longer the case]].
#{{User|Axii}} Voting for this just so the first option doesn't win.
 
====Do nothing====
#{{User|7feetunder}} If making TPPs last 1 week isn't desirable, I say just keep the status quo. While the current system ''does'' encourage making main page proposals over TPPs when possible if one wants their prop to pass faster, I'm fine with that. A controversial prop is not going to end in a week, and a prop with unanimous or near-unanimous support probably doesn't need that extra time in the oven. I'd be more open to global 2 weekers if a "early consensus = early pass" sub-rule was already in effect, but it isn't, and there's no guarantee that such a rule would be accepted by the community.
#{{User|Axii}} The solution isn't solving anything. There was never a problem with inconsistency. Talk page proposals last for two weeks because they're far less visible to people. Mainspace proposals page is frequently visited by many, having proposals last for 2 weeks instead of one doesn't change anything. It doesn't help the community settle on anything, one week is more than enough. Proposals that are tied already get extended automatically, if anything, I would argue writing guidelines proposals should last a week instead. I proposed a different solution on the talk page as well. If a user making a proposal (or an admin) feel like one week wouldn't be enough, they should be able to extend it to two. (I specifically added "or an admin", because most users don't want a proposal to last for two weeks.) Either way, the fact that users often choose mainspace proposals over talk page is perfectly fine as well. It's not about the time in the oven but the visibility of the proposal to the wiki community. Writing guidelines (if they remain at two weeks) could instead be clarified. Right now it is unclear what writing guidelines proposals even are, I think this is the main problem that should be looked at.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Secondary choice. The inconsistency isn't that bad and I prefer that to all proposals being shortened.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Second choice.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think it is worth scrutinizing our proposal policies and the issues people brought up are valid, but I do not think setting the same time for everything is necessarily the best solution. I will elaborate on my thoughts below.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
 
====Comments====
Something that occurred to me: The time allowed to edit TPPs was originally 3 like main page proposals, but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/48#Double_the_amount_of_time_a_proposer_can_edit_their_talk_page_proposals|eventually doubled to 6 to go with their extended duration]]. If TPPs are shortened to 1 week, would the time allotted to edit them be reverted? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:30, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
:That seems only fair to put them back to 3 days if that option passes--after all, it would be a glaring oversight to retain that and effectively allow for proposals that were en route to pass suddenly being hijacked on the last day, and pivoting from the original purpose, while ''still retaining the vote''. The plan here is to de-jank the proposal time-lengths and make them more consistent--not to introduce ''even more shenanigans''! {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 20:18, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
 
@7feetunder: Of course there's still a chance for new information to come too late with any proposal length, but longer proposals mean the chance is lower. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:44, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
 
@7feetunder: On your reasoning under ''Do nothing'', the idea of an early-consensus-early-conclusion rule for proposals is intriguing... I feel as if we have 2-week proposals that can end early if everyone has a near unanimous consensus on what to do with the proposal, we'd have an ideal middle ground. --[[User:OmegaRuby|OmegaRuby]] ([[User talk:OmegaRuby|talk]]) 08:55, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
 
While finding the discussions where this first took place have not been successful (with the closest approximate being tracked down by retired staff [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18#Rules_and_Regulations_for_Specific-Article_Proposals here], which alludes to this issue), there was wisdom in having longer time for talk page proposals, because they would often would get overlooked and fail simply due to lack of engagement, not because there was anything wrong with them. That may not be the case today, but I see a different set issues that this proposal does not address.
 
Personally, I think certain proposals - regardless of whether they are on the main page or a talk page - are very niche and entail a very granular change that probably does not need two weeks of discussion or even one to be implemented. Proposals that have wide and systematic changes for the site, such as a policy revision or something that would change many pages, do benefit from longer discussion time because the impact would be significant and affect a lot of people. Whether a proposal has narrow or broad impact has nothing to do with whether it is on an article's talk page or this main page.
 
Additionally, while it may seem like there should be some sort of rule that allows proposals that gain consensus quickly to be implemented, there have been concerns among staff that users have raised similar proposals to ones that had failed in the past with the hope of getting the attention of a different pool of users who may agree with them. (To clarify, there is a difference between raising a new proposal based on one that had previously failed using new information and arguments, versus one using essentially the same argument). If we had some sort of rule that allowed the passing of a proposal due to quick engagement and support, I can see it being abused in such cases and resulting in proposals passing that people at large may not have agreed with.
 
I don't like complicated rules. I believe the best policies and rules are straight forward, clear, and unambiguous. There is not use in having rules that people cannot easily understand and follow, imo. However, in this case, I think applying a blanket term policy for all proposals (be it two weeks or one) is too broad and does not address the issues I have observed, or even some of the ones raised by other folks on the main proposal page's talk page. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:18, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:If you ask me, "talk page proposals are two weeks, but the ones on the main page are one week, except writing guidelines which are also two weeks for some reason" is an overly complicated rule. [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form|Every now]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/66#Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages|and then]], confusion about the "writing guidelines are two weeks" stipulation arises in proposal comments, which I think is telling. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:54, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
 
I think my main issue is the difference with writing guideline proposals specifically. Mostly because it's hard to determine what a writing guideline even means, or which proposal should fall under which category. I'm not sure where I'll place a vote yet, but I do at least think there should be consistency between all main proposal types. [[User:Technetium|Technetium]] ([[User talk:Technetium|talk]]) 16:22, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
 
===Clarify coverage of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series===
I've pitched this before, and it got a lot of approval (particularly in favor of one-at-a-time small proposals), so I'm making it a full proposal:<br>
I have thought long and hard about the "proper" way for us to cover ''Super Smash Bros.'' in a way that both respects the desire to focus primarily on ''Super Mario'' elements while also respecting the desire to not leave anything uncovered. As such, the main way to do this is to '''give pages only to ''Super Mario'' elements, whilst covering everything else on the pages for the individual ''Super Smash Bros.'' games; unless otherwise stated, they will instead link to other wikis, be if the base series' wiki or SmashWiki'''. For instance, Link will remain an internal link (no pun intended) because he's crossed over otherwise, Ganondorf will link to Zeldawiki because he hasn't. Link's moves (originating from the ''Legend of Zelda'' series) will link to Zeldawiki, while Ganondorf's moves (original moves due to being based on Captain Falcon's moves) will link to Smashwiki.<br>
Other specific aspects of this, which for the most part make the game pages' internal coverage be more consistent with how we handle other games':
#Structure the "List of items in Smash" to how {{user|Super Mario RPG}} had it in [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_Super_Smash_Bros._series_items&oldid=4364118 this] edit, albeit with the remaining broken formatting fixed. That page always bothered me, and that version is a definite improvement.
#Merge the "enemies" pages to their respective game - they're already structured like any other game's enemy tables anyway. These pages ''also'' always bothered me.
#Merge the "Subspace Army" and "Subspace Stages" lists to each other to recreate a watered-down version of the Subspace Emissary page (to split from the Brawl page due to length and being exclusive to that campaign); it would also include a table for characters describing their role in said campaign, as well as objects/items found exclusively in it (Trophy Stands, the funny boxes, the metallic barrel cannons, etc... a lot of things from the deleted "List of Super Smash Bros. series objects" page, actually) - once again, all except ''Mario''-derived things will link elsewhere (mostly to Smashwiki in this case).
#Section each game akin to how I had the SSB64 page as of [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Smash_Bros.&oldid=4340069 this] edit, ''including'' sections for Pokemon, Assist Trophies, Bosses, etc., and links to other wikis for subjects that we don't need pages on. Other sections can be added as needed, and table structure is not specifically set, so further info can be added.
#Leave the lists for fighters, stages, and (series-wide) bosses alone (for now at least), as they make sense to have a series-wide representation on here in some capacity. Also, you never know when one of them is going to cross over otherwise, like Villager, Isabelle, and Inkling suddenly joining ''Mario Kart'', so it's good to keep that around in case a split is deemed necessary from something like that happening down the line.
#Have image galleries cover ''everything'' that can reasonably be included in an image gallery for the game, regardless of origin. This includes artwork, sprites, models, screenshots, etc, for any subject - yes, including Pokemon, so that will undo [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/68#Remove lists of Poké Ball and stage-exclusive Pokémon on ''Smash Bros.'' game pages and allow each Poké Ball Pokémon only one representative artwork/screenshot|that one proposal from a month ago]]. Just like on the game pages, the labels will link to other sites as needed.
#Leave Stickers and Spirits alone (for now at least), their pages are too large to merge and are fine as they are for the reasons that opposition to deleting them historically has brought up.
#Include the "minigame" stages (Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, Race to the Finish, Snag Trophies, Home Run Contest, Trophy Tussle, the Melee Adventure Mode stages) in the "list of stages debuting in [game]" articles. For ones like Targets, it would just explain how it worked and then have a gallery for the different layouts rather than describing each in detail (and if we later want to split the ''Mario''-based ones into their own articles, I guess we can at some point). Said minigame pages should be merged to a section in the SSB series article covering the series' minigames. The Subspace Emissary stages will get a section with a {{tem|main}} to the stage section of the Subspace Emissary article (detailed in an above point).
#Keep trophy, assist trophy, challenge, and soundtrack pages covering only ''Mario'' things, leave the remainder of the images in the game gallery (fun fact: Smashwiki does not have game galleries, nor does their community want them; we can base what we ''could'' do on if other wikis do something, but not base what we ''cannot'' do from those - nothing forbids coverage just because of that).
 
People may wonder, "What about Nintendo Land and Saturday Supercade? Why don't they get this level of coverage?" It's simple, really: In ''Smash'', you can have Mario throw a Deku Nut at Ridley in Lumiose City and nobody bats an eye at how absurd that situation is. In those other games, the different representations are very much split apart; all ''Mario''-related stuff is within a few minigames that do not overlap whatsoever with any of the other ones. In ''Nintendo Land'', you cannot have Mario fighting Ridley in the Lost Woods, despite (representations of) all of those things appearing in the game. In ''Smash'', anyone can interact with anything, regardless of origin, so '''''Mario'' characters can interact with anything, and anyone can interact with ''Mario'' things'''. That's why ''Smash'', the melting pot it is, gets more focus than ''Nintendo Land'', where everything's more of a side dish.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT


<h2 style="color:black">How To</h2>
====Support - clarify it like this====
#Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
#{{User|Axii}} Even though I disagree with points 6, 7, and especially 8 (''Mario''-themed minigames should be covered separately), I feel like this is the solution most would agree to compromise on.
##Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} While we would like to do some stuff of our own (cough cough, maybe a proper solution to Smash redirects clogging categories), this is a good start, we feel. If push comes to shove, we could always revert some of these changes in another proposal.
##Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} This is a great framework for our coverage of the series. I still would like a better handling of smaller things like trophies, stickers, spirits, and music, but I'm not sure what that would look like and we could always make that change later.
##Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, this is a good step towards cleaning up our Smash coverage.
#Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
#{{User|Metalex123}} Per proposal
#At any time a vote may be rejected if at least '''three''' active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
#{{User|Tails777}} I’d like to see where this goes. Per proposal.
#"<nowiki>#&nbsp;</nowiki>" should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "[[Wikipedia:Quorum|NO QUORUM]]." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} I've reconsidered my hardline stance since the previous proposal, and I can now agree with most of the points listed here. However, like others have said, I do want to revisit the coverage of massive lists like those for stickers and spirits in the future.
#All proposals are archived. The original proposer must '''''take action''''' accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
#There are two topics that cannot be decided on through a proposal: the first is sysop promotions and demotions, which are decided by [[MarioWiki:Bureaucrats|Bureaucrats]].  Secondly, no proposals calling for the creation of Banjo, Conker or Sonic series articles are allowed (several proposals supporting them have failed in recent history).


The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.
====Oppose - don't clarify it like this====
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} We might actually need to reduce the Smash coverage a bit more. We especially can't undo that proposal that reduced Pokémon. And those sticker and spirits list really should have been reduced to Mario subjects like the trophy list. The fact that the [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (501–1000)|middle spirit list]] doesn't have a single Mario spirit is absurd. And maybe those fighter lists should be split back into their own character pages again. Most of them had appeared in Super Mario Maker. I have a different idea of how we should handle Smash.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} This wiki really doesn't need to cover every series that appears in Smash Bros. extensively. Would be better to limit full coverage to both Mario itself and Smash since that's the host series while minimizing exposure to others if there's some connection to Mario, like, which stickers boost tail damage for Yoshi. General info on all of the modes (Classic, collections, settings), that's fine. Characters, stages, items, Assist Trophy spawns etc., just list the Mario content, mention the totals and the proportions from Mario, and include screenshots of full selections if possible.


__TOC__
====Comments - clarify the clarification?====
<small>(I was gonna name the options "Smash" and "Pass," but I thought that might be too dirty)</small> - [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:38, October 3, 2024 (EDT)


<center><span style="font-size:200%">CURRENTLY: '''{{LOCALTIME}}, {{LOCALDAY}} {{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALYEAR}} (EDT)'''</span></center>
{{@|Axii}} - I wouldn't say any of the minigames are really innately ''Mario''-themed, though. If any were, I'd have them stay separate. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:02, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:As I mentioned on your talk page, Break the Targets and Board the Platforms have ''Mario''-themed stages [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 23:57, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
::Yes, and as I mentioned in the proposal, those can be separately split later if it is determined to be acceptable. The minigames themselves, however, are not ''Mario''-themed. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:19, October 4, 2024 (EDT)
:::Why not leave them out of this proposal though. Why should we merge ''Mario'' content? [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 09:29, October 4, 2024 (EDT)
::::The current articles don't actually describe the individual stages anyway, just an overview of the mode. Also, those list pages ''already'' include the ''Mario'' stages, just with a "main article" template. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:56, October 4, 2024 (EDT)


==New Features==
{{@|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I know you are familiar with my [[User:Nintendo101/community garden|crossover article draft using ''Zelda'' as a base]], but I do not think I clarified some of the intents I had with it, which I shared [[User talk:Nintendo101#In regards to Smash and crossovers|here]] with Mushzoom. I do not think it intersects with what you layout above, but I just wanted to let you know. (I also welcome other folks to check it out.) - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:45, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
===Poll Proposals===
:I think both can coexist dandily. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:56, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
Since the Voting software thingy is working I propose that to keep the Propasals more oganized and easier, we put the voting software thingy instead of using so much room with all that writing of disagree and agree. I mean it's just one click and your done and then you just leave a comment on the bottom. Good idea right?


'''Proposer:''' {{user|KingYoshi64}}<br>
@SeanWheeler: Though the middle spirit list has no spirits of Mario characters, it's not irrelevant to Mario because Mario characters, stages, items, etc. appear in many spirit battles. In fact, the very first spirit on that page (Jirachi) has Mario relevance (you need Luma and Starlow to summon it). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:09, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline:'''
===Make Proposals Easier===


===Leave it===
{{@|SmokedChili}} - What about non-''Mario'' characters that we cover anyway due to them crossing over outside of Smash, like Link, Isabelle, and Banjo? Surely their presence in another crossover deserves to be acknowledged. That's one of the main issues that arises with the "nuclear" mindset. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:32, October 4, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Walkazo}} - If it's not broken, don't fix it. The point of voting is so we can say ''why'' we think an idea will or won't work; as it is, votes without valid reasons are removed, so this "thingy" wouldn't work at all.
#{{User|Stumpers}} per Walkazo... took the words from my mouth.


===Comments===
==New features==
#
''None at the moment.''
#


==Removals==
==Removals==
''None at the moment.
''None at the moment.''
 
==Changes==
===Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2===
Since the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles|last proposal]], other proposals have cropped up which sought to trim excess appellatives and nicknames from the titles of various character articles. As a result of these proposals, which saw little to no contention, the following changes were made:
*Professor Elvin Gadd [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|was moved to]] "Professor E. Gadd".
*Baby Donkey Kong [[Talk:Baby DK#Move to Baby DK|was moved to]] "Baby DK".
*Crossover characters with formerly descriptive titles (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog, Fox McCloud) [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change_full_names_of_crossover_characters_to_the_more_often_used_shortened_versions_in_article_titles|were moved to]] the shortened forms of their names (e.g. "Sonic", "Fox").
 
As well, before the aforementioned proposal:
*Donkey Kong Country's Animal Friends [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Move_animal_names_from_the_Donkey_Kong_Country_series_to_just_their_normal_names|were moved to their shorthand names]].
*Conker the Squirrel [[Talk:Conker#Rename_to_Conker|was moved to]] "Conker".
 
Vigilant gamers and game lore extraordinaires will know why these changes were made: the short forms of these subjects' names have been much more prominent and recent in their relevant official works, and their display titles across the site did not reflect this predilection. The Koopalings, as well as [[Princess Daisy]], are now the outliers in this specific regard--but while [[Talk:Princess_Daisy#Move_to_"Daisy"|the sentiment against moving Daisy's name to its more common shortened form]] was the inconsistency that would arise with [[Princess Peach]] using her long title, I do not recall the Koopalings, as a group, having some special counterpart that would create a similar perceived inconsistency.
 
Yeah, [[Larry]] was called "Larry Koopa" in a specific line of dialogue within Smash Ultimate, in a decade-and-a-half old licensed player's guide, and probably some 2010's toy that I'm sure users will name here in the comments, but the fact is, his short name has been promoted front-and-center within all of the games he has appeared from Mario Kart 8 back in 2014 until today, many of which are namedropped in the previous proposal. Same with his 6 siblings.
 
Besides, [[MarioWiki:Naming]] states plainly:
*"the name of an article should correspond to the '''most commonly used English name''' of the subject"
*"the more commonly used modern name should be used as the title"
 
and I believe it's only sensible for the wiki to mirror the more recent developments of the franchise in how a subject is introduced to readers.
 
Affected pages include:
{|
|-
|
*[[Larry Koopa]] (will be moved to "Larry")
*[[Roy Koopa]] ("Roy")
*[[Wendy O. Koopa]] ("Wendy")
*[[Lemmy Koopa]] ("Lemmy")
*[[Morton Koopa Jr.]] ("Morton")
*[[Ludwig von Koopa]] ("Ludwig")
*[[Iggy Koopa]] ("Iggy")
|
*[[List of Larry Koopa profiles and statistics]] (will be moved to "List of Larry profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Roy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Roy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Wendy O. Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Wendy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Lemmy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Lemmy profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Morton Koopa Jr. profiles and statistics]] ("List of Morton profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Ludwig von Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Ludwig profiles and statistics")
*[[List of Iggy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Iggy profiles and statistics")
|}
 
Note:
*This proposal targets only page titles. Even if it's a pass, articles can still acknowledge the full forms of these characters where appropriate, such as in Koopaling article openers.
*If this proposal passes, the templates in [[:Category:Koopaling content templates]] become obsolete and are to be abolished.


==Splits & Merges==
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
===Mr.L===
'''Deadline''': October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT
I know some people are gonna hate me for this but I propose we merge [[Mr. L]] and [[Luigi]]. I know he's an enemy In ''[[Super Paper Mario]]'' but no were else. His page is a near copy of his section on Luigi's article, he only appears three times (once in Luigi's clothing), and finally, he ''is'' Luigi, only brainwashed.


'''Proposer:''' {{user|tanokkitails}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' September 7, 2008, 15:00
====Support====
====Support====
#{{user|tanokkitails}}-Above text
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal, and per the former proposal as well, which I encourage participants to peruse. (Though, this time, with no multi-option shenanigans.)
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} -- While it's debatable if they are the same character, the Mr. L article is an exact copy of already existing material in the Luigi article. Seems redundant.
#{{User|Axii}} Per con Carne (like the last time).
#{{User|R.O.B 128}} -- This makes alot of sense. I can see that the opposing like to make articles about one thing. Tsk tsk.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} This may be controversial, but I think this is fine and in-line with our policies. These characters have largely only been referred to by their first names since ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga''. This does not mean Ludwig's full name is not "Ludwig von Koopa" or that it does not see occasional use in marketing and in games - it just means the title of the article is just Ludwig. I personally do not think that is as systematically harmful or erroneous as previous proposals seemed to have suggested. Lots of reference material does this. For example, the name of the {{wp|Mark Twain}} article on Wikipedia is not "Samuel L. Clemens" in any language.
#It was agreed that we only had articles on alter-egos if their powers were different from the main ego. Mr. L was merged before, I don't know why it was split. {{User|Daniel Webster}} 20:23, 5 September 2008 (EDT)
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Needless to say, there have been a few changes since the last time this was proposed.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. It seems only fair as we clamp down more and more on these elongated page titles.
#{{User|Tails777}} Supported once and I'll do it again. Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. I never really understood the main argument against this last time ("the full names still exist", as though that means they should automatically take priority over their more common short counterparts).
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all von Koopa.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} while i don't agree with the de-title-ification that's been going on, if we're going to do it we might as well be consistent with it.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} The fact that there exists an entire category of templates just to circumvent a standard that violates MarioWiki:Naming is concerning, to say the least.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|YoYo}} per all
#{{User|BMfan08}} Per all.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all, I know I opposed this before but I've changed my mind after several similar proposals since then have passed.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per Koopall


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Stumpers}} Aw, nobody's going to hate you for it!  We're not that bad... right?  Still, though: if we merge Mr. L and Luigi we'll also be doing things like merging Dry Bowser to Bowser, Shadow Mario to Bowser Jr., and Dr. Mario to Mario. I prefer to keep such articles separate because then its not such a blatant spoiler when you type in one name and it turns into another character.  (ie imagine if someone didn't know Mr. L was Luigi and he got linked to the Luigi page... spoiler!)
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} No. Okay, no. I'm trying to make a case for undoing the proposal that shortened the Sonic characters' names. I've got a strong case for Fox McCloud in that not only was his last name mentioned in every Smash game, his [[Costume Mario#92|costume]] in [[Super Mario Maker]] is the "Fox McCloud" costume, not the "Fox" costume. And I know that if this proposal passes, Peach and Daisy are next.
#{{User|Pikax}} - Per Stumpers, who took the words from my mouth.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per SeanWheeler. I fully support his reasons. Not long ago, I attempted a proposal to change [[Shadow (character)]] to Shadow or Shadow the Hedgehog, and while that proposal failed, it brought to my attention the proposal that SeanWheeler mentioned above. I very strongly disagree with that proposal, and as such, I disagree with this one too. We shouldn't go around shortening characters' names. This is a ''Super Mario'' wiki for goodness sakes-- we should at least put forth the full names of the characters! And it would create more potential for disambiguation pages, and thus more confusion. I know it confuses me. In every other instance, we can call them by their more common shortened names. Just don't move the pages themselves. We're doing away with the characters' identity, if you ask me.
#{{User|YellowYoshi398}} - Per Stumpers. Plus, Mr. L is almost a character in his own right; his mentality and even some of his skills and abilities (like his knack with machines) are different from those of Luigi. As for how poor Mr. L's page is, [[User:YellowYoshi398/Mr. L|I'll probably work on it soon]].
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} - Per Stumpers; and no, I don't hate you, Tanokkitails.
#{{User|The.Real.Izkat}} - Per All
#{{User|Luigi28}} I agree with Stumpers
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per all.
#{{User|Shrikeswind}} - Per all.  Mr. L is, like Yellow Yoshi says, almost a character in his own right, in a similar fashion to S. Mario and Junior (except the personality changes more than the appearance in that case, though Mr. L does have a different look than Luigi based on the outfit.)  I don't hate you for this proposal, but this proposal should come no further, for certain death awaits it with nasty, big, pointy teeth. =P
#{{User|Dom}} - Per Stumpers. BTW, I'd ROFL if anyone didn't know Mr L was Luigi.
#{{User|Mr. Br Mario}} - Per Stumpers. I think the Mr. L and Luigi pages are completely well as separated pages.
#{{User|Negative Squad}} Per all, seeing as my game STARRING Mr. L as the main villain will be sent to Nintendo and I doubt they have a better idea.
#{{User|Greenguy22}} Per all, you CAN'T merge Mr. L and Luigi because, though they ARE the same person physically, mentally they are nothing alike.  P.S. I WILL hate you for proposing it!!! Just kidding. =D
#{{User|AgentCH}} Per Stumpers, who said just what I was thinking when I first saw this. Perhaps the information on Mr. L in the Luigi article could be cut down to size, and a "Main article: Mr. L" link provided.
#{{User|Phailure}} Per Agent cH and Stumpers.
#{{User|Count Caterpie}} I think that the character articles are long enough! An effective articles keeps it simple.


====Comments====
====Comments====
The ironic thing is, after a little while the Mr. L page was deleted(due to a sysop's decision), I brought it back, and now there's more talk about it being merged/deleted. Kinda funny, lol. I'm not going to vote, just because I know who's gonna win, but Per Stumpers. {{User|Garlic Man}}
To clarify my position on Daisy, it was not because I thought the proposal was unreasonable. To me, an analogous situation would be drafting a proposal to only change the name of Iggy Koopa's article and none of other Koopalings. Maybe others don't see Peach and Daisy as related to each other as sibling characters like the Koopalings, but that's how I feel at least. I would receive a proposal that included both Peach and Daisy differently. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:31, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
:Not so much funny, as it is interesting to see how different people handle Mr. L (like all the nutters who try to insist they're different people, and all that fanon jazz). - {{User|Walkazo}}
:I reworded that point about the Daisy vs. Peach situation to sound less like a potshot. Sorry. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:34, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
Sorry about the hate thing I just a little shook up from a similar proposal on wikipedia were at least 25 users upossed and called me s**tfacetanokkitails
::I thought it was funny :) Just wanted to clarify my position. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:37, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
Also I'd like to note that In the first sentence It says he's luigi so since this proposal won't pass we should probably change that.tanokkitails
:::I appreciate that you took it in good humor, but I've made a point that I'll try and be more careful with the way I word my statements. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:41, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
:Yeah, well Wikipedia sucks. Anyway, just because we're not merging the articles doesn't change the fact that Mr. L and Luigi are the same person: nothing in the article needs to be changed. - {{User|Walkazo}}


Stumpers: Just like to point out, just because we merge one set of characters doesn't mean we automatically need to merge a different set. There is such a thing as 'circumstance'. -- {{user|Ghost Jam}}
@SeanWheeler: If Mario Maker costume names were the decider, [[Mr. Resetti]] would just be "Resetti", and indeed, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy would just be Peach and Daisy. But the main thing the Fox page covers isn't a costume in Mario Maker, it's his more common, prominent, and recent Smash appearances, in which the main name used to refer to him is always just "Fox". (Also, Sonic's Mario Maker costume is just called "Sonic", not "Sonic the Hedgehog".) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:03, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
:I'm aware of this "circumstance" of which you speak - I'm more thinking about the "domino effect" which often occurs in the name of "consistency." But you are right - provided people don't propose on five different merges at once, we'd be fine. {{User|Stumpers}} 13:59, 3 September 2008 (EDT)
:It's not just the Mario Maker costumes. He's been referred to as "Fox McCloud" in Melee's trophies and Ultimate's spirits, plus in Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 17:22, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
::And he's been referred to as "Fox" in his actual role as a playable character in every single Smash game. As I've repeated countless times in our [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles|previous]] [[Talk:Shadow (character)#Rename to "Shadow"|debates]], this isn't an argument of whether the full name exists, it only matters which name is more common. Please stop cherry-picking the times when the full name was used in profiles and such and acting like that automatically outweighs the more common name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:56, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
:::I feel like these proposals shortening names are meant to take the "common name" part of the naming policy to it's literal conclusion. The article names were fine before they were changed by proposals, and now we're changing very distinctive article names to generic names. That's not good for disambiguation. The shortened names could be used as redirects, but we are discouraged from linking redirects, making me confused why we have redirects at all. I mean, link templates for the Koopalings? In November, I'm going to make a proposal to encourage linking redirects. My proposal to overturn the crossover character naming was only delayed by me not having unlocked the Sonic Character Book at the Secret Shop in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games. Yes, I was going to bank on the full names being used somewhere in the games being enough to outweigh the player names. Are Peach and Daisy are going to lose their princess titles for the sake of following the naming conventions? I think the naming rule should be changed. Problem is, I can't figure out how to word it in a way to have the pages moved back to the names I want. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:55, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
::::This proposal is trying to get rid of those Koopaling templates, though. We have redirects for search purposes, not for linking. And why shouldn't the common name policy be taken to its "literal conclusion"? Are you saying you'd rather we enforced it inconsistently? That we should only enforce it when you personally happen to prefer the common name? We shouldn't ignore official sources just so that we can use the names we prefer. Also (another thing I've repeated endlessly), calling these names "generic" is subjective at best and just false at worst. Nothing about "Larry" makes it inherently a more "generic" name than "Mario" or "Pauline", and if Nintendo is content to use the shorter names to identify the characters, we have no reason not to follow suit. "But Peach and Daisy" is also a bad counterargument when several of the users supporting this proposal also supported the Daisy proposal, myself included. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:07, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Redirects just for search purposes are practically useless when there's autofill and search results. Linking to a redirect would have less bytes then pipelinking wouldn't it? And no, I don't like inconsistent rules either. I'm still trying to figure out my proposal to the naming convention. I don't want the most frequently used names which would just reduce everyone to just their first names or nicknames. Wiki page titles should be more formal than that. But during the Shadow proposal, you have pointed out some awful full names, so giving literally everyone their full names would be out too. And I feel nostalgia for the names the wiki had for years, so I wouldn't want Bowser to be moved to King Bowser Koopa. What would be the best naming convention that would have us move most if not all these characters back to their original page titles? I thought maybe "the longest common-used name" as in the full name that was referenced in most of the characters' appearances, which would keep Peach at Princess Peach (because she hasn't used her Toadstool surname in a long time, and she has been referred to as Princess Peach at least once in most of the Mario games, right?) That would definitely move Fox back to Fox McCloud. But with that rule of naming the characters their fullest name used in the most appearances, that would force us to use the full names of one-time characters like [[Squirps]] becoming {{fake link|Prince Squirp Korogaline Squirpina}}, so that rule wouldn't work out with me either. I don't have that many Mario games, so it would be hard to verify when each name was used in each game. If I go for "best known name," that's probably going to rely too much on bias, so that wouldn't work either. And if I just make a proposal to undo every move in the wiki's history and make it so that every article name is simply the original title, I doubt anyone would be on board if there were more legitimate reasons those pages moved like if some page titles started out misspelled. I've voted to shorten parentheticals, so it would make me a hypocrite to revert all the moves I've supported. This is really hard, especially as we're moving articles on a case-by-case basis when the articles should already be following the naming rules. Instead of the case-by-case basis, we really need to clarify the naming rules and what we mean by the "most common name." If we mean by the given name most frequently said in every game, then maybe the rule should be changed. Tell me, how many games have the Koopalings been referred to as their full names at least once? How many manuals and guides have their full names? They use their first names in playable character data, so how do we count playable character data? I would like to only count the playable character data just once. But how will we count dialogue? If we count every instance in dialogue, would we shorten Diddy Kong to just Diddy? Would Bowser Jr. be called Junior? This is all so complicated. All it shows is that our current naming rules aren't good. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:06, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
::::::In my opinion, I think our approach to article names for characters has been a bit technocratic. I don't think we need a strict, blanketedly applied naming policy is as beneficial as some think, and I really deciding these things on a case by case basis is perfectly fine.
::::::I personally would be in favor of returning the [[Fox]] article to Fox McCloud, purely because the word "fox" alone as plenty of connotations on its own and including the surname is just immediately clarifying that it is the main character from ''Star Fox''. I similarly would feel fine with returning the ''Sonic'' characters to their full names because it is just immediately pretty clarifying what the article's subject is about, as opposed to something else in the ''Mario'' series called a shadow. Some of them had to have clarifications between parentheses attached to the end anyways, which wouldn't have been necessary if we just kept the full names.
::::::Making decisions like that does not have to have ramifications on the names of other character articles. Inconsistency is not inherently bad if it leads to better clarification for readers. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:50, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Inconsistency is bad. Following your logic, we could end up with characters like "Sonic" and "Espio" keeping short names while others like "Shadow the Hedgehog" and "Big the Cat" get their full names, since only the latter share their names with other subjects. And wasn't inconsistency the main reason you didn't want to shorten "Princess Daisy"? Also, why would "Fox" cause clarification problems when he doesn't share that name with anything else on the wiki? Would we just arbitrarily decide which names do and don't need clarification? The best solution to all these problems is to stick to how official sources most commonly handle the names, i.e. the current naming policy (which I don't think needs changing, just enforcing). Also, @SeanWheeler, redirects are not "practically useless", they help significantly with streamlining the search process and helping people find what they're looking for. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:32, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Well, looks like my naming conventions amendment proposal in November is going to have a bunch of options. And yes, Fox could cause clarification problems because that's his species. Sure, we don't have an article on the Fox species but we have articles on [[Dragon]], [[Elephant]], [[Goat]], and used to have pages on [[Talk:Human#Delete page|Human]] and [[Talk:Giraffe]]. Then again, those Dragon, Elephant and Goat pages are now more about enemies than the species. And [[wikipedia:20th Century Fox|20th Century Fox]] would be a bigger Fox name than Fox McCloud. I wouldn't be surprised if someone searched for the company only to end up on Fox McCloud's page. Sonic is also the name of a [[wikipedia:Sonic Drive-In|restaurant]], and is a [[wiktionary:sonic|word]] related to the concept of sound. It really does help clarify things to use the longer names. To take the common name part of the policy too literally, you'd find most characters having just their first names be the most common name. I'd vote to change the wording from "most common" name to "best known name." Yes, that would rely on bias of the users, but I really can't stand these proposals reducing names. At least if the "best known name" was followed instead of the "commonly used name," the move proposals made afterward wouldn't be so much about rule violations in the naming convention but what the wiki finds to be the more popular name for the characters. And of course, fan nicknames and speculation wouldn't count. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 02:36, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::Your suggestion is to ignore official sources in favour of fan preferences (especially when they're your personal preferences), which goes against everything the naming policy and the wiki in general strive for. Besides, it's not like these characters' shortened names are obscure (all the results when I google "Sonic" are about the hedgehog, and I find it a bit hard to believe that "Miles "Tails" Prower" is a more well-known name than "Tails"). Also, who is looking up 20th Century Fox and Sonic Drive-In on the Super Mario Wiki??? [[Wikipedia:Mario (disambiguation)|Mario]] is two films, two TV series and two songs, is it time to rename his page?  {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:06, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::Well, since we have pages on [[Universal Pictures]] and [[Taco Bell]], maybe someone browsing the companies could be wondering if 20th Century Fox or its subsidiaries had ever made anything Mario related. And if the Sonic Drive-In were to ever make a Nintendo promotion with Mario toys, then we would have given the Sonic Drive-In a page like [[Taco Bell]], [[McDonald's]], [[Burger King]] and [[Wendy's]]. Oh yeah, we've got a [[Wendy's]] just like the [[Wendy O. Koopa|Koopaling]]. As for the case with Mario, those two films, TV series and songs have nothing to do with our Mario. Mario is the face of the wiki, so it would be obvious what Mario people would search for on this wiki. But Fox McCloud was just a character that Mario met in Super Smash Bros. As a Star Fox character, nobody would think to look for him on here without knowing how we handle crossover characters, would they? And for people who remembered the Nintendo and Sega rivalry in the nineties but were unaware of the Olympic series or Smash's use of third-party characters would be very surprised to find Sonic the Hedgehog on here. The crossover characters definitely need to be more distinguished than Mario himself. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 16:05, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::Why do we specifically have to cater to people who know about our relatively out-of-the-way fast food pages, yet also people who don't know about the Mario & Sonic series? You're making up whatever extremely specific hypothetical minorities of users are convenient for your preferred way of doing things. Frankly, it's ridiculous that you're implying someone looking up Fox McCloud or Sonic the Hedgehog on the wiki is less likely than someone looking up 20th Century Fox or Sonic Drive-In. Neither company has ever done any Mario-related thing, regardless of hypotheticals, so there's no reason to cover them on the wiki or to accommodate for people who do search for them. If someone does look up "20th Century Fox" and somehow ends up on the Fox page (despite the "20th Century" bit), then that's not a problem because there is no actual 20th Century Fox coverage to redirect them to, so they're not missing out on anything. And yes, those "Mario" films/TV series/songs do have nothing to do with our Mario (in the same way 20th Century Fox has nothing to do with our Fox), that's precisely the point I was making. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:31, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::It's also worth noting that, even in the one case of this that is ''not'' strictly limited to hypothetical (the [[Wendy's]]/[[Wendy O. Koopa]] pair), both articles have had a distinguish template since [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Wendy%27s&diff=next&oldid=4132540 around June of] [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Wendy_O._Koopa&diff=prev&oldid=4265875 this year]. (Rather ironically given the proposal subject, the initial attempt to add one to the restaurant linked to Wendy O. Koopa's article via a redirect... simply titled "Wendy".) In the worst case scenario, we could probably just add a few distinguish templates or create a disambiguation page; though, we imagine the odds of us having no fewer than ''5'' unique things that can be called "Fox" or "Sonic", let alone 4 if that other proposal passes, are... going to be slim for awhile, at best. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 22:11, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::{{@|Hewer}} inconsistency is not inherently bad if it promotes clarification of information, which is important to me and part of the reason why I supported retaining "Princess Daisy" over just "Daisy," because the language of most of the games she appears in convey a relationship with Peach who was not incorporated in that proposal. The analogous situation would be proposing to just change Larry Koopa's name and no one else's. I would similarly support changing the names of all ''Sonic'' characters back to their original names because they are more clarifying, but not just one of them.
::::::::It is erroneous to suggest the usage of names like "Big the Cat" or "Fox McCloud" are analogous to fan preference when they are curatorial choices made to clearly convey information to readers, and I maintain that is 100% okay to do. These are not even names invented by fans nor names not used by their IP holders (note [https://ia600202.us.archive.org/28/items/NintendoGameCubeManuals/Sonic%20Heroes%20%28USA%29_text.pdf page 11 here for Big] or [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/media/system/nintendo_gamecube/manual/formated/super_smash_bros.-_melee_-_nintendo.pdf page 39 for Fox]), so they are not invalid by any means. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 16:43, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::Ignoring the primary names used in official sources for the characters so that we can use names we think are better is prioritising fan preference over official preference. If Nintendo/Sega think "Sonic" alone is enough to identify the character in most contexts, who are we to disagree? It's exactly the same logic as this proposal, just applied to another set of characters. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:31, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::It does not feel like you engaged with the point I was making, or reviewed the pdfs I provided links to where Sega uses "Big the Cat" for ''Sonic Heroes'' and Nintendo uses "Fox McCloud" for ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'', conveying they are just as valid of names as "Big" or "Fox," but that is besides the point. You can call it "fan preference" if that is what makes most conceptual sense to you, but intentionally deviating from the primary name in one's source material for substantive reasons is not at all invalid or against the "spirit" of maintaining encyclopedic material. To the best of my knowledge, that is not attested off of this website. I am privy to many examples of comparable projects in other fields where they do deviate from the the institutionalized/authorized names of certain subjects, including academic and scientific references. I can provide examples if interested and the justifications for subjects vary by source, but the point is that making decisions like that is not inherently wrong. I feel like some proposals or ideas on this site have been shot-down prematurely because of this type of posturing. I don't think that is appropriate. If one wants the Fox article to continue going by "Fox," that's fine, but one should not suggest moving it back to "Fox McCloud" is inherently or objectively wrong regardless of reason. Because it is not. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:01, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::"Big the Cat" and "Fox McCloud" are indeed official names used sometimes, but they are not "just as valid" as the short names, because the short names are the main ones used in the Mario-related official media they appear in (also Sonic Heroes isn't covered on this wiki). The main point of this wiki's naming policy is to ensure accuracy to official sources. I never intended to suggest that "intentionally deviating from the primary name in one's source material" is wrong in the context of any encyclopedia or in general academic and scientific contexts, which probably differ greatly from the context of this fan wiki. My point is that specifically this wiki generally strives to match official sources as closely as possible, and therefore uses the logic of official sources being the ultimate authority on everything. I don't see a "substantive reason" here not to stick to that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:27, October 3, 2024 (EDT)


Just like to say that the first sentence of his article says he's luigi,so I should probably change that {{user|tanokkitails}}
@FanOfRosalina2007: How does "this is a ''Super Mario'' wiki" relate to anything? If anything, shouldn't a ''Super Mario'' wiki use the names most commonly used in the ''Super Mario'' franchise? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:22, October 4, 2024 (EDT)


I just want to say that I believe that the Dry Bowser article has information that is not in the Bowser article. The Shadow Mario artilce has information that is not in the Bowser Jr. article. The Dr. Mario article has information that is not in the Mario article. The Mr. L article has no information that isn't in the Luigi article. {{User|White Knight}}
===Overturn the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/55#Delete_Category:User_eo|proposal]] that resulted in the deletion of [[:Category:User eo]] (category for speakers of {{wp|Esperanto}})===
Myself, I don't care about this language, and needless to say, neither do most people on the planet, but I take issue with the proposal that had it removed in the first place for a few reasons.
*The proposal argues that this language "is not a real language", that "nobody really picked it up", and likens it to the fictional language of Klingon. Despite its status as a constructed language, it is, in fact, very much a real language intended and created to be functional. It has a(n admittedly small) number of speakers across the planet, some of whom may well be potential editors on this wiki for all we know. The comparison to Klingon, which was created with an artistic purpose, is misleading.
*The proposer [[User talk:Doomhiker#Woah|was outed as an extremist]] (read up on the details at your own risk) who seemingly was planning to have other language-based user categories removed, as he followed up with another [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/55#Delete_Category:User_ka|proposal targeting the Georgian user category]]. The wiki's policies outline that we shouldn't assume bad faith in users, but given the circumstances here, I hope you'll allow me the assumption that this user had ulterior motives in their little curatorial project, namely in altering the wiki ever so slightly according to their outlooks. Proposal failed and the user was banned for their concerning behavior, preventing further such proposals from being made.


===Pokemon===
Now, as you'd expect, the Esperanto user category certainly never saw much use--in fact, [https://web.archive.org/web/20140712133001/http://www.mariowiki.com/Category:User_eo only one user employed it as of 2014] <small>(archive.org)</small> and even then [https://web.archive.org/web/20140711152028/http://www.mariowiki.com/User:Pakkun only listed Esperanto as a second language] <small>(archive.org)</small> (though, the very point of Esperanto was to be an auxillary language between people who don't speak the same native language). That user, who goes by {{user|Pakkun}}, has since taken the category off their page, so you could argue that this proposal lacks a tangible purpose as "User eo" would be dead on arrival should it be recreated.


After a previous proposal of mine that was proposed to create the Raikou and Suicune article, I had taken a look at one of the user's votes and it said that they should be merged. Afterwards, I looked at Pokemon articles, and the ones I found where [[Palkia]], [[Dialga]], [[Cresselia]], and [[Entei]] (I am not sure if there is any left). While making a bigger appearance than a Pokemon in a [[Poke Ball]], it's quite best to have those four articles merged with the [[Pokemon]] article. As from what I'm seeing, Entei should stay, though, as he can be played on as a stage. So, shall we merge all four articles, merge Palkia, Dialga, and Cresselia, or don't merge at all?
The point of this proposal, however, isn't to recreate this language immediately; it is to negate the proposal that currently prevents its creation if someone ever considers they'd derive some use from it. '''This community should be open to anyone regardless of their cultural background.''' The previous proposal is contrary to that.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Palkia47}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 10, 2008, 17:00
'''Deadline''': October 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Merge All in Pokemon Article====
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Honestly, we would be down for ''more'' Conlangs to have user categories. We can't imagine the overlap of, say, Vötgil speakers to Mario Wiki users is very large, but like, in regards to a strictly English wiki, the Conlang categories in particular are just for-fun categories at the end of the day, and who the hey are we to ''expressly prohibit'' other people's fun? And even in the most generous reading of the events, it still feels like a bit of warped priorities when some categories have been in need of reforms for awhile now <small>(sorry about the Thieves category thing, we're still thinking of that and honestly at this point we wouldn't mind someone else chipping in with that)</small> and haven't gotten them, but we have an entire proposal dedicated to... Deleting a category for Esperanto speakers??? (And for the record, this was back when [[:Category:Canines]] was called Dogs--something something, obligatory mention of [[Penkoon]].)
#{{User|Shadow2}} We DID this? wtf??
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Arend}} With the provided context, something about Trig Jegman's proposals rubs me the wrong way. If it's true that he was trying to gradually remove other languages, where would he stop? He stated that Esperanto and Gregorian are languages not supported by Nintendo (a weak argument IMO, as Nintendo =/= this wiki), and not widely spoken, so would he first try to get all small-spoken languages removed? Would he eventually try to get larger languages removed just because Nintendo doesn't support these languages? Would he eventually go even further and get even languages that ''are'' supported by Nintendo removed because they're not as widely spoken as other languages? Would he eventually make it so that English is the ''only'' language remaining? Would he then remove that category too because if that's the only language category for users, then what's the point of keeping it? Or worse, is this a ploy to recognize who is native to other languages and would he try to get non-English users banned so only English-speaking users have access to the wiki (and ''then'' remove the English category)? ...Uh...fearmongering aside, per all.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} No harm having it if people want to use it.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} The more the Marior. That older proposal was dumb.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} I'm not a fan of banning users for off-site drama, especially when it's political. But if his proposal was bigoted, then maybe it should be overturned.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all, especially Sean. This proposal was asinine at best, in retrospect, and harmful at worst. And that's coming from a man who doesn't have full context as to what happened.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. That category never hurt nobody.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all. This is a really gross thing to delete.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all. That was just mean to delete a language category. People still speak this language, so we should represent it!


#{{User|Shrikeswind}} - In all honesty, I don't like the idea of Pokemon taking up a butt-load of space on a wiki dedicated to the Super Mario franchise.  In the cases of Ivysaur, Charizard, Squirtle, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pichu, Lucario, and Pokemon Trainer, I say they should be split off due to their playability, but all other Pokemon just don't deserve a seperate page because they aren't all playable in a game alongside the Mario characters.  Even playing ON Entei isn't worth a page dedicated to him.  You might as well mention his stage on the Pokemon page, because it's such a miniscule amount of information to say "He appears as a stage in Super Smash Bros. Melee."
====Oppose====
#{{User|The Dark Doggy 2}} - Per Shrikeswind, this is ''Mario'' Wiki  not ''Nintendo'' Wiki.
#{{user|Blitzwing}} - Per Shrikeswind.


====Merge Palkia, Dialga, and Cresselia====
====Comments====
The real question is if we can have a Klingon category (as [[User:Alex95|a certain other editor who is no longer with us due to concerning behavior]] mentioned on that proposal). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:11, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:Up for debate whether user categories can have some basis in fiction. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:16, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:We think that Conlangs in general should just be allowed, just because it both feels really, really weird to try to police ''what'' Conlangs "count" as languages, and because the idea of focusing even more proposals on such a for-fun topic feels.... A little too much, when that effort is best used elsewhere. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:14, September 28, 2024 (EDT)


#{{User|Palkia47}} - Personally, this is what I see is best. My proposal, so per me.
<s>We should be open for Inklingese and Smurf.</s> {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:24, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Pikax}} - Palkia, Dialga and Cresselia are all pokemon that make appearances on the Spear Pillar stage in SSBB. This sets them apart from all the other pokemon but not from each other, so this is the best option.
:<s>Per Arend.</s> --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:50, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Luigi001}} Yea, per all. But how does merging these into the Pokemon article make this a "Nintendo Wiki?" Quite frankly, merging them makes us '''less''' of a so called Nintendo Wiki than we already are.


====Keep Split====
{{@|FanOfRosalina2007}}'s vote reminded me of a point I wanted to add to the proposal within its first three days, but forgot: there is a [[:Category:User la|''category for speakers of Latin'']], a dead language, so that old proposal's argument that "Esperanto is spoken by too few people to be relevant" is bust as long as the wiki supports Latin. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:29, October 4, 2024 (EDT)
#They are stage elements affecting gameplay, the policy around here is to give stage elements an article. {{User|Daniel Webster}} 20:08, 5 September 2008 (EDT)


====Comments====
===Lower the requirement for a disambiguation page from 5 to 4===
As of now, the requirement for a disambiguation page's creation is five pages:
:''"If there are five or more pages which could be reasonably associated with a given name, then a disambiguation page must be created"'' ([[MarioWiki:Naming]])
This rule feels needlessly restrictive, considering the amount of clutter links make at the very top of the page. "For a minigame in the ''WarioWare'' series, see X. For an object in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' found in the Luncheon Kingdom, see Y. For an underwater enemy from...", you get the idea. If this proposal passes, the threshold on MarioWiki:Naming will be lowered from 5 to 4.


Once again, may somebody add the deadline for me? I'm not well with it. {{User|Palkia47}}
'''Proposer''': {{User|Axii}}<br>
:Thanks, Time Q. {{User|Palkia47}}
'''Deadline''': October 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT


Not sure where to vote on this exactly, but here's where I stand:
====Support====
*All of the playable Pokemon and PT qualify for their own pages.
#{{User|Axii}} ^
*The Entei '''stage''' can have an article, provided it talks more about the stage itself than Entei as a Pokemon.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} One or two other articles are fine, but having three separate articles in the <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> template at the top of the page is the point where a disambiguation page is ideal.
*All Poke Ball/Saffron City/Spear Pillar Pokemon should be merged, though. Stage-specific Pokemon could perhaps get descriptions in their stage articles though. -- [[User: Booster|Booster]]
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} We don't need to clutter the {{tem|About}} template.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Frankly, I'd support bringing the requirement as low as 3. Per proposal.
#{{User|Mariuigi Khed}} I too I'd go with 3. Per proposal


==Changes==
====Oppose====
===Release date formatting===
After a discussion on the [[Talk:Main_Page#Release_date_formatting|Main page talk]] lead to no decision, I thought I'd make a proposal about it. There are two ways of formatting for the release dates in games infoboxes I have in mind:


*(JP) November 21, 1990
====Comments====
*(US) August 13, 1991
Do you have any examples of how many subjects would be affected by this change? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 10:52, September 29, 2024 (EDT)
*(EU) April 11, 1992
:I don't think there's an easy way to tell, but I can't imagine it being too many. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 12:05, September 29, 2024 (EDT)


or
===Shorten the disambiguation identifier for ''Yoshi's Island'' pages with the subtitle only - take two===
Last season, I had to cancel [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Yoshi's Island pages|my last proposal]] since I was caught plagiarizing [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Donkey Kong Country 2 and Donkey Kong Country 3 pages|someone else's proposal]]. This time, I've come up with another proposal that is not plagiarized.


*http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Flag_of_Japan.svg/22px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png November 21, 1990
Take the "Choose a Game" screen and the main game's title screen in ''Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3'' for example. As you see, the logo for the main game on both screens ONLY reads ''Yoshi's Island'', not ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''.
*http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png August 13, 1991
*http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Flag_of_Europe.svg/22px-Flag_of_Europe.svg.png April 11, 1992


Though the text form is currently in use, I'd like to change existing "USA" to "US" and "AU" and "AUS" to "Aus" there. Or use the flag system. Because this is mainly a graphical problem, I think we can bend the proposal rules here and don't require a reason for voting.
The following pages will be affected:


'''Proposer:''' {{User|Cobold}}<br>
{| class="wikitable"
'''Deadline:''' September 6, 20:00
! Current name
! Will be moved to
|-
| [[Fuzzy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|Fuzzy (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|Fuzzy (''Yoshi's Island'')|Fuzzy (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[King Bowser's Castle (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|King Bowser's Castle (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|King Bowser's Castle (''Yoshi's Island'')|King Bowser's Castle (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[Magnifying Glass (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|Magnifying Glass (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|Magnifying Glass (''Yoshi's Island'')|Magnifying Glass (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[Spiked Fun Guy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|Spiked Fun Guy (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|Spiked Fun Guy (''Yoshi's Island'')|Spiked Fun Guy (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 1 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 1 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 1 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 1 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 2 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 2 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 2 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 2 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 3 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 3 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 3 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 3 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 4 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 4 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 4 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 4 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 5 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 5 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 5 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 5 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|-
| [[World 6 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)|World 6 (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')]]
| {{fake link|World 6 (''Yoshi's Island'')|World 6 (Yoshi's Island)}}
|}


==== Use text form ====
Once this proposal passes, we'll be able to use the shorter disambiguation identifier with ONLY the subtitle for the ''Yoshi's Island'' pages.
*&nbsp;
==== Use country flags ====
#{{User|Cobold}} Looks nicer.
#{{User|Stumpers}} No worries about consistency, since images can be updated like a template and the whole Wiki would be affected. (USA Flag can apply to NA b/c there is no North American flag and Nintendo of America is based out of Washington, USA)
#{{User|Dom}} It looks more proffesional, and it helps people who are too dumb to know which country the 2 letters stand for. '''AS LONG AS YOU INCLUDE AUSTRALIA!'''
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} - There's no worries of "which abbreviation is better". The flags say it all.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} - At one point, way back when the wiki was new, we were intending to do this away.
#{{user|Luigi001}} Per all. It looks much better than abbreviations.
#{{user|Tucayo}} per all, though we should include latin america, bacause the release date often differs from the one of the us
#{{user|Shrikeswind}} Per all.  Tucayo raises a good point, as well.  I'd say the US flag (per Stumpers), Brazilian flag (per population), European flag, Japanese flag, and Australian flag are good for starters, and we can work out the details at a later point.
#{{user|Coincollector}} Per all, a pic tells more than 1000 words...


==== Keep as is ====
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
==== Comments ====
'''Deadline''': October 10, 2024, 23:59 GMT
Hmm, I don't know which would be better. Either seems just as useful as the other. (BTW, I did add a Keep as Is section, just in case){{User|Garlic Man}}
:Isn't the text form already what we have currently? - {{User|Cobold}} 15:34, 30 August 2008 (EDT)
<br>
I am extremly insulted that you did not include Australia in the list. Whether there are flags or not, my country '''must''' be included. {{User|Dom}}
:I took Super Mario World as an example, which doesn't have an AU release date listed and I excluded it because there wasn't an Australian flag on the example page on Wikipedia I used to copy from. Of course we're going to have one if we go for the flags, and we might even get one for Korea and China as well. - {{User|Cobold}} 16:59, 30 August 2008 (EDT)
::Hey, Dom: No one's going to forget Australia of all countries.  And of all users, Cobold isn't going to be US-centric. {{User|Stumpers}}
:::We can sort out which countries to include for release information as articles are worked on. For the most part, I get my release information from a combination of GameFAQs and MobyGames. -- {{User|Ghost Jam}} 21:47, 30 August 2008 (EDT)
::::OK, you got away with it this time. It's good to know that you will include my country. Australia is more important than, say... Uzbekistan. Do they even get video-games? BTW, do I have to do this diagonally moving across thing? {{User|Dom}}
Tucayo, what flag should we use for Latin America? - {{User|Cobold}} 17:58, 1 September 2008 (EDT)
:Maybe Mexico's? --{{user|Tucayo}}


Mexico is sometimes considered North America. And why isn't canadian flag used in North America release date? It could imply that we are racist towards Canada, and we don't want that.{{User|Clay Mario}}
====Support (''Yoshi's Island'')====
:R, wha, Racist towards canada?? Dude, Americans and Canadians are the same race, geez... {{User|Garlic Man}}
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
::Yeah, "racist" isn't the right word for it. Fortunately we're used to being shafted, so don't worry about it. - {{User|Walkazo}}
:::I thought we were doing it b/c NoA was situated in the USA, but I could easily make a combination Canada/USA flag (with a diagonal from two corners to separate).  Of course, question is, how could I get around the fact that both the blue stars and the top of the leaf should be in there... {{User|Stumpers}}
::::Could try the NAFTA flag.  It's kinda stupid looking if you ask me, but the NAFTA flag is basically the US stars on the left, the Canadian leaf on the right, and the Mexican eagle in the center.  It makes for a useful choice in spite of the stupidity of the image (opinion) and the lack of NAFTA love because it features all three of the flags.  You can see it on NAFTA's Wikipedia page.  {{User|Shrikeswind}}
:I'm not 100% sure this is correct, and I don't necessarily agree with it regardless, but I think the idea is based on the size of the country population-wise when it comes to regional flagging, for example, because the USA has more people in it than Canada, the States flag is picked over the Canadian flag.  I call for this solely on the fact that it's the only one available at this point.  In that case, the Latin American flag would be best chosen as the Brazilian flag.  The European flag would be choice for Europe.  That's my take on it, population until an alternate availability arises. {{User|Shrikeswind}}
:Regardless of the reasons, most sites indicate North America with US flag. I say we just go with that. Let's not turn this into the Great MarioWiki Mediation War of the Northern Americas. -- {{User|Ghost Jam}}
::Hey guys, what about having both flags?
::http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png Undecember 33, 3009.
::Would work, as it are only two flags. {{User|Cobold}}
:A thought occurs.  Maybe if we make animations for the flags.  We'd be able to keep Canada out of the shaft, and we'd have a viable option for Latin America. - {{User|Shrikeswind}}
::I think that would be quite a lot Latin American flags. Animations are too distracting in my opinion. - {{User|Cobold}} 14:23, 3 September 2008 (EDT)~
:::Good points.  Still, the idea solves problem spots like Latin America due to the fact that we wouldn't have a zillion flags taking up space. - {{User|Shrikeswind}}
::::It seems like too much hastle. Pretty much everyone accepts the US as the "poster boy" for North America, and NoA being situated in the U.S. makes it even more reasonable (i.e. no one can complain it's just because the US is bigger and creates biases, etc.). - {{User|Walkazo}}
::::: Don't worry about Latin América. The Dates are the same as North America, at least recently and about NoA products - {{user|GinnyN}}
:::Well, you're the defender of Canada right now, so as long as you're okay with us USAians doing this, ok.  This is good: you and Cobold are also thinking the USA flag so I don't have to feel biased. :3 {{User|Stumpers}}
::::Uh Walkazo, Canada is at least 100,000km² bigger than the US. - {{User|Cobold}} 10:21, 4 September 2008 (EDT)
:::::The United States has a larger population, if that means anything. - {{User|Shrikeswind}}
::::::I meant "bigger" as in more people, more power, etc. (actually, the metaphor for Canada and the US are the mouse and the elephant, respectively). Most of Canada's empty wilderland anyway (in fact, most of our people live clustered along the US border), so our geographic size doesn't really matter in most cases. - {{User|Walkazo}}
:::::::I'm glad there's someone else around here who likes geography as much as I do. =3 {{User|Stooben Rooben}}


Generally speaking, most gaming sites only list release information for North America, Japan, Europe and Australia. If we start listing every country under the sun, article pages are going to need collapsible release lists. -- {{user|Ghost Jam}}
====Oppose (''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'')====
#{{User|Hewer}} Reusing my oppose vote from last time: the remake replaces (and reorders) the subtitle rather than just removing it, so we've never had a game just called Yoshi's Island, and I don't know of any other time we've used a title for a game identifier that isn't actually a title for a game. "[[Yoshi's Island]]" also isn't quite as immediately obvious what it refers to compared to "Super Mario RPG", "Donkey Kong Country 2", or "Donkey Kong Country 3". I think this is going a bit too far and ends up a little more confusing than helpful.
#{{User|Axii}} Per Hewer
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Hewer.
 
====Comments====
{{@|Hewer}} I respectfully disagree. "''Yoshi's Island''" is actually short for both "''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''" and "''Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3''", so I think there's a possibility to use the "''Yoshi's Island''" disambiguation identifier for ''Yoshi's Island'' pages, even if it is confusing. {{User:GuntherBayBeee/sig}} 08:39, October 4, 2024 (EDT)
:Why do it if it could be confusing? [[MarioWiki:Naming]] advises: "When naming an article, do '''not''' use game abbreviations. (e.g. use [[Bully (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)|Bully (''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'')]] as opposed to {{fake link|Bully (''M&L:PIT'')}})." {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:59, October 4, 2024 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 18:22, October 4, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Friday, October 4th, 22:44 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use the {{proposal check}} tool to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  11. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks (at the earliest).
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for writing guidelines and talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the subject page of the talk page it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

  • Rename {{Manga infobox}} to {{Publication infobox}} (discuss) Deadline: October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Merge Play Nintendo secret message puzzles (discuss) Deadline: October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Merge categories for Donkey Kong Country remakes with their base game's categories (discuss) Deadline: October 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Refer to "King Bill" as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" for coverage in New Super Mario Bros. Wii (discuss) Deadline: October 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Rename Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia to Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten (discuss) Deadline: October 7, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Split the References in other media section on Super Mario Bros. to its own article (discuss) Deadline: October 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Split Luigi's Twin from Luigi (discuss) Deadline: October 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Create an article for secret exits and merge Goal Pole (secret) with both it and Goal Pole (discuss) Deadline: October 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Remove "(series)" identifier from titles that don't need it (discuss) Deadline: October 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Reinstate The Wizard (1989) (discuss) Deadline: October 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the New Super Mario Bros. games, the Super Mario Maker games, Super Mario Run, or Super Mario Bros. Wonder
Expand use of "rawsize" gallery class, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended July 19, 2024)
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Tag sections regarding the unofficially named planets/area in Super Mario Galaxy games with "Conjecture" and "Dev data" templates, GuntherBayBeee (ended September 10, 2024)
Create MarioWiki:WikiLove and WikiLove templates, Super Mario RPG (ended September 20, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 3, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Revise how long proposals take: "IT'S ABOUT (how much) TIME (they take)"

Currently, the way our proposals are set up, there are two deadlines. On the main proposals page, they last for 1 week. On talk pages, or for writing guidelines proposals, 2 weeks. Now, this is fine. We're not going to claim this is like, some total deal-breaker or nothing. However, lately, there have been a few concerns raised about this inconsistency, and we figured, what the hey, why not put it up to vote?

A few concerns we've seen, both from others and from us, in no particular order;

  • The largest one to us is just that, unless a proposal is really specific, it's just not worth it to make a talk page proposal over a main page proposal, since it'll end faster. The only thing immune to this are writing guidelines proposals.
  • While the proposals themselves are different lengths, the duration before you can make a second proposal on them remains the same. Thusly, if you want to set a policy in stone, you would actually want to make it a writing guidelines/talk page proposal over an ordinary one, as that means it will last for, at least, 6 weeks (4 weeks for the cooldown, and 2 weeks to put it to proposal again.)
  • Lastly, talk page proposals just inherently take longer to happen. This can be an issue if their changes are, overall, quite small (like a simple merge/split or rename), or the consensus is reached very quickly; this stings when an ordinary proposal would happen twice as fast with the exact same amount of votes!

Now, there's a few ways you can go about this, but there's one in particular we've taken a liking to: uh, just make all proposals take 2 weeks, lmao.

"BUT CAM & TORI!", we hear you shout, "BUT YOU SAID 2 WEEKS PROPOSALS TAKE TOO LONG??? WHY WOULD YOU CHANGE THEM TO SOMETHING YOU HATE???", and to that we say... No! We actually like the 2 weeks proposals! They have a distinct benefit to them! The problem is that they're juxtaposed with the 1 week proposals. Let's run through those same bullet points.

  • If all proposals were 2 weeks, well, there's no real loss to making a talk page proposal over a main proposal page proposal, as they'll all last 2 weeks anyways. (Sure, a proposal can take longer if there's a tie, but that just happens for all proposals anyways.)
  • There's also no incentive to make a talk page proposal/writing guideline proposal if you particularly want your porposal to stick around, as again, now every proposal is guaranteed to last for, at the very least, 6 weeks.
  • Now. While it's annoying that all proposals will take 2 weeks, despite the inherent risk of some coming to their consensuses much faster than the deadlines, for one, this is also an issue with talk page proposals as-is. For two, the extra time can offer extra time for new information to come to light or for particularly close votes to make their cases and form a proper consensus, without needing a tiebreaker. Lastly, if it's really that big of an issue, we could perhaps create a rule that if a proposal comes to a particularly large consensus a week in, it'll pass early (the finer details would be created as necessary).

There is, of course, the alternative of making all proposals 1 week. While we realize this does also resolve a lot of things, it does also necessarily mean that some proposals that would want to happen slower, now don't have that time, and are rushed. Even making only talk page proposals take only 1 week means that Writing Guideline proposals will be at a unique disadvantage for how long they take/an advantage for how long they last if they pass. (And of course, we could just leave everything as they are, but that goes without saying.) That being said, we have provided options for these, and you're free to make your case for these.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: October 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Make all proposals last for 2 weeks

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) If it's not obvious, this is our primary option; we're a big fan of the idea of global 2 week proposals!. Even with their caveats, in the worst-case scenario, we could make a clause to prevent proposals for lasting too long if they reach their consensus early, or we could simply revert back to the current system. We think the added consistency and preventing of shenanigans is very potent, and it also means that you have to put a bit more thought into your proposal as you make it. Patience fans will be eating good if this passes.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per proposal and what was said here. However, I'd also be fine with an option to just shorten writing guidelines proposals to be one week. I don't really understand the third option here, writing guidelines proposals being two weeks felt to me like the worst inconsistency of the bunch. I still don't see what about "writing guidelines" specifically means they inherently need more time than the other categories on this page.
  3. OmegaRuby (talk) Regular proposals and TPPs are just as visible as one another and should be treated equally, especially when regular page proposals can be the home of very important decisions (such as this one!) and are just given 1 week. Per all.
  4. Waluigi Time (talk) 1 week proposals have always felt a little short to me. I'd rather err on the side of some proposals running a little longer than needed than not having enough discussion time (I don't like banking on a controversial proposal tying). Having to wait an extra week to implement a proposal isn't the end of the world anyway - proposals are rarely, if ever, urgent enough that an extra week with no change would be detrimental to the wiki (and if that were the case, the change should probably come immediately from wiki staff).
  5. Killer Moth (talk) Per all. Giving an extra week to discuss and vote on proposals is a good thing.
  6. Drago (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
  7. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per, I never got why sitewide ones always got less time to discuss.
  8. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal and the talk page discussion.
  9. Tails777 (talk) Per proposal.
  10. Jdtendo (talk) I feel like the inconsistency is not justified, and one week may be too short to make an informed decision.
  11. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all. I was one of the people who participated in the conversation that sparked this proposal, and my reasons are stated there.

Make all proposals last for 1 week

Make all proposals except for writing guidelines proposals last for 1 week

  1. Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary option. While we like this much less, we do see the merit of making Talk Page Proposals 1 week, and it's not exactly the end-all-be-all. However, we would vastly prefer 2-week proposals, and keeping Writing Guidelines proposals 2-week is kind of a necessary evil to prevent them from being too rushed for their own good. However, compared to truly all 1-week proposals, this is better... though, not as good as all 2-week proposals.
  2. 7feetunder (talk) For me, it's either this or bust. New information coming to light can still invalidate a proposal's entire premise too late and require a counterproposal even with a 2 week deadline, so extending the deadline of main page props to 2 weeks won't stop that from happening from time to time. Most proposals that don't reach a consensus in a week will probably require extensions anyway. TPPs being less "visible" than main page proposals was more of an issue back when no quorums were immediate, but that's no longer the case.
  3. Axii (talk) Voting for this just so the first option doesn't win.

Do nothing

  1. 7feetunder (talk) If making TPPs last 1 week isn't desirable, I say just keep the status quo. While the current system does encourage making main page proposals over TPPs when possible if one wants their prop to pass faster, I'm fine with that. A controversial prop is not going to end in a week, and a prop with unanimous or near-unanimous support probably doesn't need that extra time in the oven. I'd be more open to global 2 weekers if a "early consensus = early pass" sub-rule was already in effect, but it isn't, and there's no guarantee that such a rule would be accepted by the community.
  2. Axii (talk) The solution isn't solving anything. There was never a problem with inconsistency. Talk page proposals last for two weeks because they're far less visible to people. Mainspace proposals page is frequently visited by many, having proposals last for 2 weeks instead of one doesn't change anything. It doesn't help the community settle on anything, one week is more than enough. Proposals that are tied already get extended automatically, if anything, I would argue writing guidelines proposals should last a week instead. I proposed a different solution on the talk page as well. If a user making a proposal (or an admin) feel like one week wouldn't be enough, they should be able to extend it to two. (I specifically added "or an admin", because most users don't want a proposal to last for two weeks.) Either way, the fact that users often choose mainspace proposals over talk page is perfectly fine as well. It's not about the time in the oven but the visibility of the proposal to the wiki community. Writing guidelines (if they remain at two weeks) could instead be clarified. Right now it is unclear what writing guidelines proposals even are, I think this is the main problem that should be looked at.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Secondary choice. The inconsistency isn't that bad and I prefer that to all proposals being shortened.
  4. Killer Moth (talk) Second choice.
  5. Nintendo101 (talk) I think it is worth scrutinizing our proposal policies and the issues people brought up are valid, but I do not think setting the same time for everything is necessarily the best solution. I will elaborate on my thoughts below.
  6. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.
  7. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.

Comments

Something that occurred to me: The time allowed to edit TPPs was originally 3 like main page proposals, but eventually doubled to 6 to go with their extended duration. If TPPs are shortened to 1 week, would the time allotted to edit them be reverted? Dark BonesSig.png 19:30, October 2, 2024 (EDT)

That seems only fair to put them back to 3 days if that option passes--after all, it would be a glaring oversight to retain that and effectively allow for proposals that were en route to pass suddenly being hijacked on the last day, and pivoting from the original purpose, while still retaining the vote. The plan here is to de-jank the proposal time-lengths and make them more consistent--not to introduce even more shenanigans! ~Camwoodstock (talk) 20:18, October 2, 2024 (EDT)

@7feetunder: Of course there's still a chance for new information to come too late with any proposal length, but longer proposals mean the chance is lower. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:44, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@7feetunder: On your reasoning under Do nothing, the idea of an early-consensus-early-conclusion rule for proposals is intriguing... I feel as if we have 2-week proposals that can end early if everyone has a near unanimous consensus on what to do with the proposal, we'd have an ideal middle ground. --OmegaRuby (talk) 08:55, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

While finding the discussions where this first took place have not been successful (with the closest approximate being tracked down by retired staff here, which alludes to this issue), there was wisdom in having longer time for talk page proposals, because they would often would get overlooked and fail simply due to lack of engagement, not because there was anything wrong with them. That may not be the case today, but I see a different set issues that this proposal does not address.

Personally, I think certain proposals - regardless of whether they are on the main page or a talk page - are very niche and entail a very granular change that probably does not need two weeks of discussion or even one to be implemented. Proposals that have wide and systematic changes for the site, such as a policy revision or something that would change many pages, do benefit from longer discussion time because the impact would be significant and affect a lot of people. Whether a proposal has narrow or broad impact has nothing to do with whether it is on an article's talk page or this main page.

Additionally, while it may seem like there should be some sort of rule that allows proposals that gain consensus quickly to be implemented, there have been concerns among staff that users have raised similar proposals to ones that had failed in the past with the hope of getting the attention of a different pool of users who may agree with them. (To clarify, there is a difference between raising a new proposal based on one that had previously failed using new information and arguments, versus one using essentially the same argument). If we had some sort of rule that allowed the passing of a proposal due to quick engagement and support, I can see it being abused in such cases and resulting in proposals passing that people at large may not have agreed with.

I don't like complicated rules. I believe the best policies and rules are straight forward, clear, and unambiguous. There is not use in having rules that people cannot easily understand and follow, imo. However, in this case, I think applying a blanket term policy for all proposals (be it two weeks or one) is too broad and does not address the issues I have observed, or even some of the ones raised by other folks on the main proposal page's talk page. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:18, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

If you ask me, "talk page proposals are two weeks, but the ones on the main page are one week, except writing guidelines which are also two weeks for some reason" is an overly complicated rule. Every now and then, confusion about the "writing guidelines are two weeks" stipulation arises in proposal comments, which I think is telling. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:54, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

I think my main issue is the difference with writing guideline proposals specifically. Mostly because it's hard to determine what a writing guideline even means, or which proposal should fall under which category. I'm not sure where I'll place a vote yet, but I do at least think there should be consistency between all main proposal types. Technetium (talk) 16:22, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series

I've pitched this before, and it got a lot of approval (particularly in favor of one-at-a-time small proposals), so I'm making it a full proposal:
I have thought long and hard about the "proper" way for us to cover Super Smash Bros. in a way that both respects the desire to focus primarily on Super Mario elements while also respecting the desire to not leave anything uncovered. As such, the main way to do this is to give pages only to Super Mario elements, whilst covering everything else on the pages for the individual Super Smash Bros. games; unless otherwise stated, they will instead link to other wikis, be if the base series' wiki or SmashWiki. For instance, Link will remain an internal link (no pun intended) because he's crossed over otherwise, Ganondorf will link to Zeldawiki because he hasn't. Link's moves (originating from the Legend of Zelda series) will link to Zeldawiki, while Ganondorf's moves (original moves due to being based on Captain Falcon's moves) will link to Smashwiki.
Other specific aspects of this, which for the most part make the game pages' internal coverage be more consistent with how we handle other games':

  1. Structure the "List of items in Smash" to how Super Mario RPG (talk) had it in this edit, albeit with the remaining broken formatting fixed. That page always bothered me, and that version is a definite improvement.
  2. Merge the "enemies" pages to their respective game - they're already structured like any other game's enemy tables anyway. These pages also always bothered me.
  3. Merge the "Subspace Army" and "Subspace Stages" lists to each other to recreate a watered-down version of the Subspace Emissary page (to split from the Brawl page due to length and being exclusive to that campaign); it would also include a table for characters describing their role in said campaign, as well as objects/items found exclusively in it (Trophy Stands, the funny boxes, the metallic barrel cannons, etc... a lot of things from the deleted "List of Super Smash Bros. series objects" page, actually) - once again, all except Mario-derived things will link elsewhere (mostly to Smashwiki in this case).
  4. Section each game akin to how I had the SSB64 page as of this edit, including sections for Pokemon, Assist Trophies, Bosses, etc., and links to other wikis for subjects that we don't need pages on. Other sections can be added as needed, and table structure is not specifically set, so further info can be added.
  5. Leave the lists for fighters, stages, and (series-wide) bosses alone (for now at least), as they make sense to have a series-wide representation on here in some capacity. Also, you never know when one of them is going to cross over otherwise, like Villager, Isabelle, and Inkling suddenly joining Mario Kart, so it's good to keep that around in case a split is deemed necessary from something like that happening down the line.
  6. Have image galleries cover everything that can reasonably be included in an image gallery for the game, regardless of origin. This includes artwork, sprites, models, screenshots, etc, for any subject - yes, including Pokemon, so that will undo that one proposal from a month ago. Just like on the game pages, the labels will link to other sites as needed.
  7. Leave Stickers and Spirits alone (for now at least), their pages are too large to merge and are fine as they are for the reasons that opposition to deleting them historically has brought up.
  8. Include the "minigame" stages (Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, Race to the Finish, Snag Trophies, Home Run Contest, Trophy Tussle, the Melee Adventure Mode stages) in the "list of stages debuting in [game]" articles. For ones like Targets, it would just explain how it worked and then have a gallery for the different layouts rather than describing each in detail (and if we later want to split the Mario-based ones into their own articles, I guess we can at some point). Said minigame pages should be merged to a section in the SSB series article covering the series' minigames. The Subspace Emissary stages will get a section with a {{main}} to the stage section of the Subspace Emissary article (detailed in an above point).
  9. Keep trophy, assist trophy, challenge, and soundtrack pages covering only Mario things, leave the remainder of the images in the game gallery (fun fact: Smashwiki does not have game galleries, nor does their community want them; we can base what we could do on if other wikis do something, but not base what we cannot do from those - nothing forbids coverage just because of that).

People may wonder, "What about Nintendo Land and Saturday Supercade? Why don't they get this level of coverage?" It's simple, really: In Smash, you can have Mario throw a Deku Nut at Ridley in Lumiose City and nobody bats an eye at how absurd that situation is. In those other games, the different representations are very much split apart; all Mario-related stuff is within a few minigames that do not overlap whatsoever with any of the other ones. In Nintendo Land, you cannot have Mario fighting Ridley in the Lost Woods, despite (representations of) all of those things appearing in the game. In Smash, anyone can interact with anything, regardless of origin, so Mario characters can interact with anything, and anyone can interact with Mario things. That's why Smash, the melting pot it is, gets more focus than Nintendo Land, where everything's more of a side dish.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: October 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support - clarify it like this

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per
  2. Axii (talk) Even though I disagree with points 6, 7, and especially 8 (Mario-themed minigames should be covered separately), I feel like this is the solution most would agree to compromise on.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) While we would like to do some stuff of our own (cough cough, maybe a proper solution to Smash redirects clogging categories), this is a good start, we feel. If push comes to shove, we could always revert some of these changes in another proposal.
  4. Ahemtoday (talk) This is a great framework for our coverage of the series. I still would like a better handling of smaller things like trophies, stickers, spirits, and music, but I'm not sure what that would look like and we could always make that change later.
  5. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, this is a good step towards cleaning up our Smash coverage.
  6. Metalex123 (talk) Per proposal
  7. Tails777 (talk) I’d like to see where this goes. Per proposal.
  8. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
  9. ThePowerPlayer (talk) I've reconsidered my hardline stance since the previous proposal, and I can now agree with most of the points listed here. However, like others have said, I do want to revisit the coverage of massive lists like those for stickers and spirits in the future.

Oppose - don't clarify it like this

  1. SeanWheeler (talk) We might actually need to reduce the Smash coverage a bit more. We especially can't undo that proposal that reduced Pokémon. And those sticker and spirits list really should have been reduced to Mario subjects like the trophy list. The fact that the middle spirit list doesn't have a single Mario spirit is absurd. And maybe those fighter lists should be split back into their own character pages again. Most of them had appeared in Super Mario Maker. I have a different idea of how we should handle Smash.
  2. SmokedChili (talk) This wiki really doesn't need to cover every series that appears in Smash Bros. extensively. Would be better to limit full coverage to both Mario itself and Smash since that's the host series while minimizing exposure to others if there's some connection to Mario, like, which stickers boost tail damage for Yoshi. General info on all of the modes (Classic, collections, settings), that's fine. Characters, stages, items, Assist Trophy spawns etc., just list the Mario content, mention the totals and the proportions from Mario, and include screenshots of full selections if possible.

Comments - clarify the clarification?

(I was gonna name the options "Smash" and "Pass," but I thought that might be too dirty) - Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:38, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@Axii - I wouldn't say any of the minigames are really innately Mario-themed, though. If any were, I'd have them stay separate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:02, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

As I mentioned on your talk page, Break the Targets and Board the Platforms have Mario-themed stages Axii (talk) 23:57, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
Yes, and as I mentioned in the proposal, those can be separately split later if it is determined to be acceptable. The minigames themselves, however, are not Mario-themed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:19, October 4, 2024 (EDT)
Why not leave them out of this proposal though. Why should we merge Mario content? Axii (talk) 09:29, October 4, 2024 (EDT)
The current articles don't actually describe the individual stages anyway, just an overview of the mode. Also, those list pages already include the Mario stages, just with a "main article" template. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:56, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick I know you are familiar with my crossover article draft using Zelda as a base, but I do not think I clarified some of the intents I had with it, which I shared here with Mushzoom. I do not think it intersects with what you layout above, but I just wanted to let you know. (I also welcome other folks to check it out.) - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:45, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

I think both can coexist dandily. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:56, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler: Though the middle spirit list has no spirits of Mario characters, it's not irrelevant to Mario because Mario characters, stages, items, etc. appear in many spirit battles. In fact, the very first spirit on that page (Jirachi) has Mario relevance (you need Luma and Starlow to summon it). Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:09, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@SmokedChili - What about non-Mario characters that we cover anyway due to them crossing over outside of Smash, like Link, Isabelle, and Banjo? Surely their presence in another crossover deserves to be acknowledged. That's one of the main issues that arises with the "nuclear" mindset. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:32, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2

Since the last proposal, other proposals have cropped up which sought to trim excess appellatives and nicknames from the titles of various character articles. As a result of these proposals, which saw little to no contention, the following changes were made:

  • Professor Elvin Gadd was moved to "Professor E. Gadd".
  • Baby Donkey Kong was moved to "Baby DK".
  • Crossover characters with formerly descriptive titles (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog, Fox McCloud) were moved to the shortened forms of their names (e.g. "Sonic", "Fox").

As well, before the aforementioned proposal:

Vigilant gamers and game lore extraordinaires will know why these changes were made: the short forms of these subjects' names have been much more prominent and recent in their relevant official works, and their display titles across the site did not reflect this predilection. The Koopalings, as well as Princess Daisy, are now the outliers in this specific regard--but while the sentiment against moving Daisy's name to its more common shortened form was the inconsistency that would arise with Princess Peach using her long title, I do not recall the Koopalings, as a group, having some special counterpart that would create a similar perceived inconsistency.

Yeah, Larry was called "Larry Koopa" in a specific line of dialogue within Smash Ultimate, in a decade-and-a-half old licensed player's guide, and probably some 2010's toy that I'm sure users will name here in the comments, but the fact is, his short name has been promoted front-and-center within all of the games he has appeared from Mario Kart 8 back in 2014 until today, many of which are namedropped in the previous proposal. Same with his 6 siblings.

Besides, MarioWiki:Naming states plainly:

  • "the name of an article should correspond to the most commonly used English name of the subject"
  • "the more commonly used modern name should be used as the title"

and I believe it's only sensible for the wiki to mirror the more recent developments of the franchise in how a subject is introduced to readers.

Affected pages include:

Note:

  • This proposal targets only page titles. Even if it's a pass, articles can still acknowledge the full forms of these characters where appropriate, such as in Koopaling article openers.
  • If this proposal passes, the templates in Category:Koopaling content templates become obsolete and are to be abolished.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) per proposal, and per the former proposal as well, which I encourage participants to peruse. (Though, this time, with no multi-option shenanigans.)
  2. Axii (talk) Per con Carne (like the last time).
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) This may be controversial, but I think this is fine and in-line with our policies. These characters have largely only been referred to by their first names since Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. This does not mean Ludwig's full name is not "Ludwig von Koopa" or that it does not see occasional use in marketing and in games - it just means the title of the article is just Ludwig. I personally do not think that is as systematically harmful or erroneous as previous proposals seemed to have suggested. Lots of reference material does this. For example, the name of the Mark Twain article on Wikipedia is not "Samuel L. Clemens" in any language.
  4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Needless to say, there have been a few changes since the last time this was proposed.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. It seems only fair as we clamp down more and more on these elongated page titles.
  6. Tails777 (talk) Supported once and I'll do it again. Per proposal.
  7. Hewer (talk) Per all. I never really understood the main argument against this last time ("the full names still exist", as though that means they should automatically take priority over their more common short counterparts).
  8. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  9. DesaMatt (talk) Per all von Koopa.
  10. EvieMaybe (talk) while i don't agree with the de-title-ification that's been going on, if we're going to do it we might as well be consistent with it.
  11. ThePowerPlayer (talk) The fact that there exists an entire category of templates just to circumvent a standard that violates MarioWiki:Naming is concerning, to say the least.
  12. Jdtendo (talk) Per all.
  13. YoYo (talk) per all
  14. BMfan08 (talk) Per all.
  15. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per all, I know I opposed this before but I've changed my mind after several similar proposals since then have passed.
  16. Jazama (talk) Per all
  17. OmegaRuby (talk) Per Koopall

Oppose

  1. SeanWheeler (talk) No. Okay, no. I'm trying to make a case for undoing the proposal that shortened the Sonic characters' names. I've got a strong case for Fox McCloud in that not only was his last name mentioned in every Smash game, his costume in Super Mario Maker is the "Fox McCloud" costume, not the "Fox" costume. And I know that if this proposal passes, Peach and Daisy are next.
  2. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per SeanWheeler. I fully support his reasons. Not long ago, I attempted a proposal to change Shadow (character) to Shadow or Shadow the Hedgehog, and while that proposal failed, it brought to my attention the proposal that SeanWheeler mentioned above. I very strongly disagree with that proposal, and as such, I disagree with this one too. We shouldn't go around shortening characters' names. This is a Super Mario wiki for goodness sakes-- we should at least put forth the full names of the characters! And it would create more potential for disambiguation pages, and thus more confusion. I know it confuses me. In every other instance, we can call them by their more common shortened names. Just don't move the pages themselves. We're doing away with the characters' identity, if you ask me.

Comments

To clarify my position on Daisy, it was not because I thought the proposal was unreasonable. To me, an analogous situation would be drafting a proposal to only change the name of Iggy Koopa's article and none of other Koopalings. Maybe others don't see Peach and Daisy as related to each other as sibling characters like the Koopalings, but that's how I feel at least. I would receive a proposal that included both Peach and Daisy differently. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:31, September 27, 2024 (EDT)

I reworded that point about the Daisy vs. Peach situation to sound less like a potshot. Sorry. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:34, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
I thought it was funny :) Just wanted to clarify my position. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:37, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
I appreciate that you took it in good humor, but I've made a point that I'll try and be more careful with the way I word my statements. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:41, September 27, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler: If Mario Maker costume names were the decider, Mr. Resetti would just be "Resetti", and indeed, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy would just be Peach and Daisy. But the main thing the Fox page covers isn't a costume in Mario Maker, it's his more common, prominent, and recent Smash appearances, in which the main name used to refer to him is always just "Fox". (Also, Sonic's Mario Maker costume is just called "Sonic", not "Sonic the Hedgehog".) Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:03, September 30, 2024 (EDT)

It's not just the Mario Maker costumes. He's been referred to as "Fox McCloud" in Melee's trophies and Ultimate's spirits, plus in Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:22, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
And he's been referred to as "Fox" in his actual role as a playable character in every single Smash game. As I've repeated countless times in our previous debates, this isn't an argument of whether the full name exists, it only matters which name is more common. Please stop cherry-picking the times when the full name was used in profiles and such and acting like that automatically outweighs the more common name. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:56, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
I feel like these proposals shortening names are meant to take the "common name" part of the naming policy to it's literal conclusion. The article names were fine before they were changed by proposals, and now we're changing very distinctive article names to generic names. That's not good for disambiguation. The shortened names could be used as redirects, but we are discouraged from linking redirects, making me confused why we have redirects at all. I mean, link templates for the Koopalings? In November, I'm going to make a proposal to encourage linking redirects. My proposal to overturn the crossover character naming was only delayed by me not having unlocked the Sonic Character Book at the Secret Shop in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games. Yes, I was going to bank on the full names being used somewhere in the games being enough to outweigh the player names. Are Peach and Daisy are going to lose their princess titles for the sake of following the naming conventions? I think the naming rule should be changed. Problem is, I can't figure out how to word it in a way to have the pages moved back to the names I want. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:55, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
This proposal is trying to get rid of those Koopaling templates, though. We have redirects for search purposes, not for linking. And why shouldn't the common name policy be taken to its "literal conclusion"? Are you saying you'd rather we enforced it inconsistently? That we should only enforce it when you personally happen to prefer the common name? We shouldn't ignore official sources just so that we can use the names we prefer. Also (another thing I've repeated endlessly), calling these names "generic" is subjective at best and just false at worst. Nothing about "Larry" makes it inherently a more "generic" name than "Mario" or "Pauline", and if Nintendo is content to use the shorter names to identify the characters, we have no reason not to follow suit. "But Peach and Daisy" is also a bad counterargument when several of the users supporting this proposal also supported the Daisy proposal, myself included. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:07, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
Redirects just for search purposes are practically useless when there's autofill and search results. Linking to a redirect would have less bytes then pipelinking wouldn't it? And no, I don't like inconsistent rules either. I'm still trying to figure out my proposal to the naming convention. I don't want the most frequently used names which would just reduce everyone to just their first names or nicknames. Wiki page titles should be more formal than that. But during the Shadow proposal, you have pointed out some awful full names, so giving literally everyone their full names would be out too. And I feel nostalgia for the names the wiki had for years, so I wouldn't want Bowser to be moved to King Bowser Koopa. What would be the best naming convention that would have us move most if not all these characters back to their original page titles? I thought maybe "the longest common-used name" as in the full name that was referenced in most of the characters' appearances, which would keep Peach at Princess Peach (because she hasn't used her Toadstool surname in a long time, and she has been referred to as Princess Peach at least once in most of the Mario games, right?) That would definitely move Fox back to Fox McCloud. But with that rule of naming the characters their fullest name used in the most appearances, that would force us to use the full names of one-time characters like Squirps becoming Prince Squirp Korogaline Squirpina, so that rule wouldn't work out with me either. I don't have that many Mario games, so it would be hard to verify when each name was used in each game. If I go for "best known name," that's probably going to rely too much on bias, so that wouldn't work either. And if I just make a proposal to undo every move in the wiki's history and make it so that every article name is simply the original title, I doubt anyone would be on board if there were more legitimate reasons those pages moved like if some page titles started out misspelled. I've voted to shorten parentheticals, so it would make me a hypocrite to revert all the moves I've supported. This is really hard, especially as we're moving articles on a case-by-case basis when the articles should already be following the naming rules. Instead of the case-by-case basis, we really need to clarify the naming rules and what we mean by the "most common name." If we mean by the given name most frequently said in every game, then maybe the rule should be changed. Tell me, how many games have the Koopalings been referred to as their full names at least once? How many manuals and guides have their full names? They use their first names in playable character data, so how do we count playable character data? I would like to only count the playable character data just once. But how will we count dialogue? If we count every instance in dialogue, would we shorten Diddy Kong to just Diddy? Would Bowser Jr. be called Junior? This is all so complicated. All it shows is that our current naming rules aren't good. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:06, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
In my opinion, I think our approach to article names for characters has been a bit technocratic. I don't think we need a strict, blanketedly applied naming policy is as beneficial as some think, and I really deciding these things on a case by case basis is perfectly fine.
I personally would be in favor of returning the Fox article to Fox McCloud, purely because the word "fox" alone as plenty of connotations on its own and including the surname is just immediately clarifying that it is the main character from Star Fox. I similarly would feel fine with returning the Sonic characters to their full names because it is just immediately pretty clarifying what the article's subject is about, as opposed to something else in the Mario series called a shadow. Some of them had to have clarifications between parentheses attached to the end anyways, which wouldn't have been necessary if we just kept the full names.
Making decisions like that does not have to have ramifications on the names of other character articles. Inconsistency is not inherently bad if it leads to better clarification for readers. - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:50, October 1, 2024 (EDT)
Inconsistency is bad. Following your logic, we could end up with characters like "Sonic" and "Espio" keeping short names while others like "Shadow the Hedgehog" and "Big the Cat" get their full names, since only the latter share their names with other subjects. And wasn't inconsistency the main reason you didn't want to shorten "Princess Daisy"? Also, why would "Fox" cause clarification problems when he doesn't share that name with anything else on the wiki? Would we just arbitrarily decide which names do and don't need clarification? The best solution to all these problems is to stick to how official sources most commonly handle the names, i.e. the current naming policy (which I don't think needs changing, just enforcing). Also, @SeanWheeler, redirects are not "practically useless", they help significantly with streamlining the search process and helping people find what they're looking for. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:32, October 2, 2024 (EDT)
Well, looks like my naming conventions amendment proposal in November is going to have a bunch of options. And yes, Fox could cause clarification problems because that's his species. Sure, we don't have an article on the Fox species but we have articles on Dragon, Elephant, Goat, and used to have pages on Human and Talk:Giraffe. Then again, those Dragon, Elephant and Goat pages are now more about enemies than the species. And 20th Century Fox would be a bigger Fox name than Fox McCloud. I wouldn't be surprised if someone searched for the company only to end up on Fox McCloud's page. Sonic is also the name of a restaurant, and is a word related to the concept of sound. It really does help clarify things to use the longer names. To take the common name part of the policy too literally, you'd find most characters having just their first names be the most common name. I'd vote to change the wording from "most common" name to "best known name." Yes, that would rely on bias of the users, but I really can't stand these proposals reducing names. At least if the "best known name" was followed instead of the "commonly used name," the move proposals made afterward wouldn't be so much about rule violations in the naming convention but what the wiki finds to be the more popular name for the characters. And of course, fan nicknames and speculation wouldn't count. SeanWheeler (talk) 02:36, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
Your suggestion is to ignore official sources in favour of fan preferences (especially when they're your personal preferences), which goes against everything the naming policy and the wiki in general strive for. Besides, it's not like these characters' shortened names are obscure (all the results when I google "Sonic" are about the hedgehog, and I find it a bit hard to believe that "Miles "Tails" Prower" is a more well-known name than "Tails"). Also, who is looking up 20th Century Fox and Sonic Drive-In on the Super Mario Wiki??? Mario is two films, two TV series and two songs, is it time to rename his page? Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:06, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
Well, since we have pages on Universal Pictures and Taco Bell, maybe someone browsing the companies could be wondering if 20th Century Fox or its subsidiaries had ever made anything Mario related. And if the Sonic Drive-In were to ever make a Nintendo promotion with Mario toys, then we would have given the Sonic Drive-In a page like Taco Bell, McDonald's, Burger King and Wendy's. Oh yeah, we've got a Wendy's just like the Koopaling. As for the case with Mario, those two films, TV series and songs have nothing to do with our Mario. Mario is the face of the wiki, so it would be obvious what Mario people would search for on this wiki. But Fox McCloud was just a character that Mario met in Super Smash Bros. As a Star Fox character, nobody would think to look for him on here without knowing how we handle crossover characters, would they? And for people who remembered the Nintendo and Sega rivalry in the nineties but were unaware of the Olympic series or Smash's use of third-party characters would be very surprised to find Sonic the Hedgehog on here. The crossover characters definitely need to be more distinguished than Mario himself. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:05, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
Why do we specifically have to cater to people who know about our relatively out-of-the-way fast food pages, yet also people who don't know about the Mario & Sonic series? You're making up whatever extremely specific hypothetical minorities of users are convenient for your preferred way of doing things. Frankly, it's ridiculous that you're implying someone looking up Fox McCloud or Sonic the Hedgehog on the wiki is less likely than someone looking up 20th Century Fox or Sonic Drive-In. Neither company has ever done any Mario-related thing, regardless of hypotheticals, so there's no reason to cover them on the wiki or to accommodate for people who do search for them. If someone does look up "20th Century Fox" and somehow ends up on the Fox page (despite the "20th Century" bit), then that's not a problem because there is no actual 20th Century Fox coverage to redirect them to, so they're not missing out on anything. And yes, those "Mario" films/TV series/songs do have nothing to do with our Mario (in the same way 20th Century Fox has nothing to do with our Fox), that's precisely the point I was making. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:31, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
It's also worth noting that, even in the one case of this that is not strictly limited to hypothetical (the Wendy's/Wendy O. Koopa pair), both articles have had a distinguish template since around June of this year. (Rather ironically given the proposal subject, the initial attempt to add one to the restaurant linked to Wendy O. Koopa's article via a redirect... simply titled "Wendy".) In the worst case scenario, we could probably just add a few distinguish templates or create a disambiguation page; though, we imagine the odds of us having no fewer than 5 unique things that can be called "Fox" or "Sonic", let alone 4 if that other proposal passes, are... going to be slim for awhile, at best. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 22:11, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
@Hewer inconsistency is not inherently bad if it promotes clarification of information, which is important to me and part of the reason why I supported retaining "Princess Daisy" over just "Daisy," because the language of most of the games she appears in convey a relationship with Peach who was not incorporated in that proposal. The analogous situation would be proposing to just change Larry Koopa's name and no one else's. I would similarly support changing the names of all Sonic characters back to their original names because they are more clarifying, but not just one of them.
It is erroneous to suggest the usage of names like "Big the Cat" or "Fox McCloud" are analogous to fan preference when they are curatorial choices made to clearly convey information to readers, and I maintain that is 100% okay to do. These are not even names invented by fans nor names not used by their IP holders (note page 11 here for Big or page 39 for Fox), so they are not invalid by any means. - Nintendo101 (talk) 16:43, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
Ignoring the primary names used in official sources for the characters so that we can use names we think are better is prioritising fan preference over official preference. If Nintendo/Sega think "Sonic" alone is enough to identify the character in most contexts, who are we to disagree? It's exactly the same logic as this proposal, just applied to another set of characters. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:31, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
It does not feel like you engaged with the point I was making, or reviewed the pdfs I provided links to where Sega uses "Big the Cat" for Sonic Heroes and Nintendo uses "Fox McCloud" for Super Smash Bros. Melee, conveying they are just as valid of names as "Big" or "Fox," but that is besides the point. You can call it "fan preference" if that is what makes most conceptual sense to you, but intentionally deviating from the primary name in one's source material for substantive reasons is not at all invalid or against the "spirit" of maintaining encyclopedic material. To the best of my knowledge, that is not attested off of this website. I am privy to many examples of comparable projects in other fields where they do deviate from the the institutionalized/authorized names of certain subjects, including academic and scientific references. I can provide examples if interested and the justifications for subjects vary by source, but the point is that making decisions like that is not inherently wrong. I feel like some proposals or ideas on this site have been shot-down prematurely because of this type of posturing. I don't think that is appropriate. If one wants the Fox article to continue going by "Fox," that's fine, but one should not suggest moving it back to "Fox McCloud" is inherently or objectively wrong regardless of reason. Because it is not. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:01, October 3, 2024 (EDT)
"Big the Cat" and "Fox McCloud" are indeed official names used sometimes, but they are not "just as valid" as the short names, because the short names are the main ones used in the Mario-related official media they appear in (also Sonic Heroes isn't covered on this wiki). The main point of this wiki's naming policy is to ensure accuracy to official sources. I never intended to suggest that "intentionally deviating from the primary name in one's source material" is wrong in the context of any encyclopedia or in general academic and scientific contexts, which probably differ greatly from the context of this fan wiki. My point is that specifically this wiki generally strives to match official sources as closely as possible, and therefore uses the logic of official sources being the ultimate authority on everything. I don't see a "substantive reason" here not to stick to that. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:27, October 3, 2024 (EDT)

@FanOfRosalina2007: How does "this is a Super Mario wiki" relate to anything? If anything, shouldn't a Super Mario wiki use the names most commonly used in the Super Mario franchise? Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:22, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

Overturn the proposal that resulted in the deletion of Category:User eo (category for speakers of Esperanto)

Myself, I don't care about this language, and needless to say, neither do most people on the planet, but I take issue with the proposal that had it removed in the first place for a few reasons.

  • The proposal argues that this language "is not a real language", that "nobody really picked it up", and likens it to the fictional language of Klingon. Despite its status as a constructed language, it is, in fact, very much a real language intended and created to be functional. It has a(n admittedly small) number of speakers across the planet, some of whom may well be potential editors on this wiki for all we know. The comparison to Klingon, which was created with an artistic purpose, is misleading.
  • The proposer was outed as an extremist (read up on the details at your own risk) who seemingly was planning to have other language-based user categories removed, as he followed up with another proposal targeting the Georgian user category. The wiki's policies outline that we shouldn't assume bad faith in users, but given the circumstances here, I hope you'll allow me the assumption that this user had ulterior motives in their little curatorial project, namely in altering the wiki ever so slightly according to their outlooks. Proposal failed and the user was banned for their concerning behavior, preventing further such proposals from being made.

Now, as you'd expect, the Esperanto user category certainly never saw much use--in fact, only one user employed it as of 2014 (archive.org) and even then only listed Esperanto as a second language (archive.org) (though, the very point of Esperanto was to be an auxillary language between people who don't speak the same native language). That user, who goes by Pakkun (talk), has since taken the category off their page, so you could argue that this proposal lacks a tangible purpose as "User eo" would be dead on arrival should it be recreated.

The point of this proposal, however, isn't to recreate this language immediately; it is to negate the proposal that currently prevents its creation if someone ever considers they'd derive some use from it. This community should be open to anyone regardless of their cultural background. The previous proposal is contrary to that.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: October 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) per proposal.
  2. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Honestly, we would be down for more Conlangs to have user categories. We can't imagine the overlap of, say, Vötgil speakers to Mario Wiki users is very large, but like, in regards to a strictly English wiki, the Conlang categories in particular are just for-fun categories at the end of the day, and who the hey are we to expressly prohibit other people's fun? And even in the most generous reading of the events, it still feels like a bit of warped priorities when some categories have been in need of reforms for awhile now (sorry about the Thieves category thing, we're still thinking of that and honestly at this point we wouldn't mind someone else chipping in with that) and haven't gotten them, but we have an entire proposal dedicated to... Deleting a category for Esperanto speakers??? (And for the record, this was back when Category:Canines was called Dogs--something something, obligatory mention of Penkoon.)
  4. Shadow2 (talk) We DID this? wtf??
  5. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  6. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per proposal.
  7. Hewer (talk) Per proposal.
  8. Arend (talk) With the provided context, something about Trig Jegman's proposals rubs me the wrong way. If it's true that he was trying to gradually remove other languages, where would he stop? He stated that Esperanto and Gregorian are languages not supported by Nintendo (a weak argument IMO, as Nintendo =/= this wiki), and not widely spoken, so would he first try to get all small-spoken languages removed? Would he eventually try to get larger languages removed just because Nintendo doesn't support these languages? Would he eventually go even further and get even languages that are supported by Nintendo removed because they're not as widely spoken as other languages? Would he eventually make it so that English is the only language remaining? Would he then remove that category too because if that's the only language category for users, then what's the point of keeping it? Or worse, is this a ploy to recognize who is native to other languages and would he try to get non-English users banned so only English-speaking users have access to the wiki (and then remove the English category)? ...Uh...fearmongering aside, per all.
  9. Waluigi Time (talk) No harm having it if people want to use it.
  10. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  11. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  12. Axii (talk) Per all.
  13. Mario (talk) The more the Marior. That older proposal was dumb.
  14. Jazama (talk) Per all
  15. SeanWheeler (talk) I'm not a fan of banning users for off-site drama, especially when it's political. But if his proposal was bigoted, then maybe it should be overturned.
  16. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all, especially Sean. This proposal was asinine at best, in retrospect, and harmful at worst. And that's coming from a man who doesn't have full context as to what happened.
  17. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) Per all. That category never hurt nobody.
  18. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.
  19. Pseudo (talk) Per all. This is a really gross thing to delete.
  20. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all. That was just mean to delete a language category. People still speak this language, so we should represent it!

Oppose

Comments

The real question is if we can have a Klingon category (as a certain other editor who is no longer with us due to concerning behavior mentioned on that proposal). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:11, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

Up for debate whether user categories can have some basis in fiction. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:16, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
We think that Conlangs in general should just be allowed, just because it both feels really, really weird to try to police what Conlangs "count" as languages, and because the idea of focusing even more proposals on such a for-fun topic feels.... A little too much, when that effort is best used elsewhere. ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:14, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

We should be open for Inklingese and Smurf. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 20:24, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

Per Arend. --A Boo hiding and revealing itself. FanOfYoshi Splunkin model from New Super Mario Bros. 05:50, September 30, 2024 (EDT)

@FanOfRosalina2007's vote reminded me of a point I wanted to add to the proposal within its first three days, but forgot: there is a category for speakers of Latin, a dead language, so that old proposal's argument that "Esperanto is spoken by too few people to be relevant" is bust as long as the wiki supports Latin. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:29, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

Lower the requirement for a disambiguation page from 5 to 4

As of now, the requirement for a disambiguation page's creation is five pages:

"If there are five or more pages which could be reasonably associated with a given name, then a disambiguation page must be created" (MarioWiki:Naming)

This rule feels needlessly restrictive, considering the amount of clutter links make at the very top of the page. "For a minigame in the WarioWare series, see X. For an object in Super Mario Odyssey found in the Luncheon Kingdom, see Y. For an underwater enemy from...", you get the idea. If this proposal passes, the threshold on MarioWiki:Naming will be lowered from 5 to 4.

Proposer: Axii (talk)
Deadline: October 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Axii (talk) ^
  2. ThePowerPlayer (talk) One or two other articles are fine, but having three separate articles in the {{about}} template at the top of the page is the point where a disambiguation page is ideal.
  3. SeanWheeler (talk) We don't need to clutter the {{About}} template.
  4. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Pseudo (talk) Frankly, I'd support bringing the requirement as low as 3. Per proposal.
  6. Mariuigi Khed (talk) I too I'd go with 3. Per proposal

Oppose

Comments

Do you have any examples of how many subjects would be affected by this change? — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 10:52, September 29, 2024 (EDT)

I don't think there's an easy way to tell, but I can't imagine it being too many. Axii (talk) 12:05, September 29, 2024 (EDT)

Shorten the disambiguation identifier for Yoshi's Island pages with the subtitle only - take two

Last season, I had to cancel my last proposal since I was caught plagiarizing someone else's proposal. This time, I've come up with another proposal that is not plagiarized.

Take the "Choose a Game" screen and the main game's title screen in Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 for example. As you see, the logo for the main game on both screens ONLY reads Yoshi's Island, not Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island.

The following pages will be affected:

Current name Will be moved to
Fuzzy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) Fuzzy (Yoshi's Island)
King Bowser's Castle (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) King Bowser's Castle (Yoshi's Island)
Magnifying Glass (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) Magnifying Glass (Yoshi's Island)
Spiked Fun Guy (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) Spiked Fun Guy (Yoshi's Island)
World 1 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) World 1 (Yoshi's Island)
World 2 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) World 2 (Yoshi's Island)
World 3 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) World 3 (Yoshi's Island)
World 4 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) World 4 (Yoshi's Island)
World 5 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) World 5 (Yoshi's Island)
World 6 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island) World 6 (Yoshi's Island)

Once this proposal passes, we'll be able to use the shorter disambiguation identifier with ONLY the subtitle for the Yoshi's Island pages.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: October 10, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support (Yoshi's Island)

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal

Oppose (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)

  1. Hewer (talk) Reusing my oppose vote from last time: the remake replaces (and reorders) the subtitle rather than just removing it, so we've never had a game just called Yoshi's Island, and I don't know of any other time we've used a title for a game identifier that isn't actually a title for a game. "Yoshi's Island" also isn't quite as immediately obvious what it refers to compared to "Super Mario RPG", "Donkey Kong Country 2", or "Donkey Kong Country 3". I think this is going a bit too far and ends up a little more confusing than helpful.
  2. Axii (talk) Per Hewer
  3. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per Hewer.

Comments

@Hewer I respectfully disagree. "Yoshi's Island" is actually short for both "Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island" and "Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3", so I think there's a possibility to use the "Yoshi's Island" disambiguation identifier for Yoshi's Island pages, even if it is confusing. GuntherBayBeee.jpgGuntherBayBeeeGravity Rush Kat.png 08:39, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

Why do it if it could be confusing? MarioWiki:Naming advises: "When naming an article, do not use game abbreviations. (e.g. use Bully (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time) as opposed to Bully (M&L:PIT))." Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:59, October 4, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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