Talk:Bowser's Brother

English name

If he's referred to as "Bowser's Brother" or "Bowser's Twin" in the SMAS player's guide, should this page be renamed to reflect that?Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Considering we don't describe Kaptain K. Rool as being the brother of King K. Rool despite there being an in-game source for that, I don't think we should. The "Family relationship" section at the bottom is good enough. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 16:08, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

I'm just saying that Mariowiki:naming would give that credence as a solution...Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:37, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

It's true that we name articles according to English sources first (heck, the current article's title isn't correct; considering it comes from the Japanese text, it should be Koopa Ao or Kuppa Ao), but since modern sources don't mention a familial relationship between this guy and Bowser, calling him "Bowser's Brother" seems like a misleading misnomer. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 17:09, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

I would like to specifiy a thing: Blue Bowser is not in Super Mario All-Stars. The other Bowser in World 8-4 has the same appearance of Bowser, he's just an unnamed character, referred to improperly as Fake Bowser on page 92 of the Official Nintendo Guidebook of Super Mario Collection (the Japanese mame of Super Mario All-Stars). He isn't a Fake Bowser, of course, since if you defeat with fireballs he doesn't become another enemy, but he isn't Blue Bowser either, since he has the same coloring of Bowser. Same for the Bowser of World 9-3, that one was actually referred to as being the real Bowser even in the NES versionMedia:SMCE pages 150 151.png, and of course the same was said for Super Mario All-Stars, which is even more credible since this time he had the very same appearance of Bowser. From what I've seen so far only the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. started stating that the Bowser of World 9-3 is Blue Bowser; since of course it is also the most recent official source, I included also that level in the page, although I'll probably rewrite that part once I have the translations of the books I found.

Long story short: Blue bowser is not in Super Mario All-Stars, making that reference from NOA even more surprising.

Anyway, this is why I stated in the Family Relationship section The character who replaced him was also stated to be Bowser's brother in the Super Mario All-Stars Player's Guide instead of Blue Bowser was also stated to be Bowser's brother in the Super Mario All-Stars Player's Guide.

Regarding the naming, effectively I haven't been enforcing the rule recently in the strictest manner, although we always report the name in the way it is written in Japanese. In the case of the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario character Encyclopedia I even asked and was told to use the translated name. After all, when names with a specific Western counterpart or words which aren't personal names and can be translated are found, it makes sense to use the translation, provided the actual Japanese name is also reported. This is what I did here: 「クッパ」 has a Western counterpart, Bowser, while 「アオ」 is just an adjective, blue. This way it's more clear to the readers what the subject of the page is, so we should probably review the naming policy on this part and see if it should be changed or just no longer strictly enforced.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:58, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

So "Blue Bowser" is a one-time name that describes a single depiction of the character? He was never blue anyways, as he was originally on the greener side of turquoise. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

First of all Blue Bowser is an official name, which was even reused in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., whether he's actually blue or not is not really relevant, as the NES had severe palette limitations anyway. We have contradictory information on whether the "other Bowser" from SMAS should be considered the same as him, the only source suggesting this is page 65 of the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario character encycloepdiaMedia:PEGMCE_page_65.png, here is 2257 (talk)'s translation:

"Mario Interest Academy

Vanished Character, Altered Character

Huuh? Bowser is Blue

A fake Bowser appears in the Famicom version of Super Mario. Since his color is blue, you can tell at a glance that he's a fake, but unfortunately in Mario All-Stars he became the same green.

Yoshi in Mario 3 as Well

In Mario 3, the kings were transformed into various animals. In the Mario All-Stars version, these animals were changed to typical Mario characters. A king who became Yoshi also appears."

captions:

"He can't be distinguished from the real thing."

"Obviously fake blue Bowser."

"Yoshi is at a place like this!"

"He was safely returned to the form of a king."

The Official Nintendo guidebook of SMAS clearly doesn't call the normal colored Bowser Blue Bowser and neither the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and the Super Mario PiaMedia:SMP Blue Bowser.png, the three most recent sources on him, mention him having a different color in SMAS, actually the body being blue is noted as being the main feature. I'm still waiting for the translation of the Super Mario Bros. Daizukan, another 1994 character book written under the supervision of Nintendo, but we have little evidence that the SMAS "other Bowser" is just Blue Bowser, and certainly not from the current sources.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

"A fake Bowser appears in the Famicom version of Super Mario. Since his color is blue, you can tell at a glance that he's a fake, but unfortunately in Mario All-Stars he became the same green."

"he became the same green."

"he became the same green."

Became. As in he (one character) was one way before, but was in a different state later. But still the same character. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:34, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Please, read everything I write. Blue Bowser is both a past and current name, used both in the Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia as well as the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., Bowser's Brother isn't - it was exclusively used in the Western SMAS guide to refer to a character we aren't even sure it is the same character, as current sources don't make this claim at all.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:50, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

And "Bowser's Brother" is the only English name for the character with this particular placement in the game, and policy dictates that English names get the foremost treatment, regardless of age. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:55, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Policy can be overcome if we make a proposal out of it. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:56, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

That's different because alternate names for Scorchit and Klamber were English anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:57, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

A talk page proposal might work, though, so we also see if we should enforce the Japanese naming rule strictly instead and use the romanized Japanese name, putting it as third option.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

It occurred to me that technically the most recent name is "Bowser Imposter," as the SSBfWU tip was specifically referring to this...Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

And "fake Bowser" in that sense could simply mean "Bowser Doppelganger," and not refer to the specific things we have under Fake Bowser. The way it's worded in that blurb you gave makes me lean towards that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

Well, the term 「ニセクッパ」 is used both on page 65 of the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character EncyclopediaMedia:PEGMCE page 65.png, as well as a 2015 official book, the Super Mario PiaMedia:SMP Blue Bowser.png. SSB4 actually uses the same term too, 「にせクッパ」. So, in the article I'm almost sugar coating it by saying he's considered akin to a Fake Bowser, they use for him the very same name used for Fake Bowsers! And while he doesn't become another character when defeated with fireballs unlike the proper 「ニセクッパ」, for unknwon reasons since the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia they preferred using this inappropriate term until the release of the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. finally used a definition and a term more in line with what the game shows - a character on his own separate from Bowser (he's fought before him in World 8-4) and distinct from the Fake Bowsers (he doesn't become another character when defeated with fireballs).--Mister Wu (talk) 20:08, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

It'll probably be "Blue Bowser" once the English translation of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. comes out (unless it's been canceled). LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:16, 6 October 2017 (EDT)

And now that we cannot use Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, I support moving the article to Bowser's Brother. There is going to be an inconsistency with the name either way since the family relationship is contested and Super Mario All-Stars changed its color from the namesake blue (and we do have at least "Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia" suggesting it's the same one), so we might as well take the path of least resistance and go with the only one from an English source. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:03, 27 November 2018 (EST)

Wait, you mean that the romanization of his Japanese name is Blue Bowser, and not Ao Kuppa? Or is it translated? I'm supporting the renname. -- FanOfYoshi 06:54, 27 November 2018 (EST)

The subject has at least three different listed Japanese names (maybe more since it doesn't seem like it was ever given a real name), and Blue Bowser is more like a "localized" approximation of two of them, even though policy dictates that it should have been Koopa Ao, Nise Koopa or Koopa (Ao). LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:07, 27 November 2018 (EST)

Due to the débâcle of the English translation of the Encyclopedia, you can use that name from the English Super Mario All-Stars guide, since using Blue Bowser at this point would mean following the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. I just ask you if you can specify, in the introduction here and when he's mentioned in paragraphs of the other pages, that he's blue colored (e.g. the blue-colored Bowser's Brother), since the current material since Super Smash Bros. for Wii U consistently agrees on this being the defining feature of the character and the outdated English name we'd use fails to convey that - it rather focuses on his identity at the time. Hopefully Super Smash Bros. Ultimate will give us a more up-to-date name, but at this point we can't really rely too much on that either...--Mister Wu (talk) 10:49, 27 November 2018 (EST)

"Blue Bowser" isn't accurate to begin with, since he's not really "blue" anyways, but dark teal, having the exact same palette encoding as the regular Bowser, just with the values in that slot differing due to location. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:13, 27 November 2018 (EST)

It might not be the most accurate name with respect to the game's sprite, but the various official material that refers to the him in the FDS version of Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels consistently states that he's blue when it refers to his color. Remember that we aren't using the Bowser's Brother name because it better reflects what the character is - if anything, that name currently is a lot more inaccurate than Koopa (blue)! - but because our policy prompts us to do so.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (EST)

And Hootie the Blue Fish is clearly purple, except when flashing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2018 (EST)

It's not just that his Japanese name is Blue Bowser, he's outright stated to be blue in official material, in a repeated and consistent way. We can't ignore this as it would go against the wiki's policy of reporting what is said about the character in official material. In any case, I readded in the main page the actual colors of the NES sprite for clarity. Keep in mind that the Bowser blue palette swap in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U is stated to use his actual colors (even in the Japanese text), meaning that there's now an updated coloration of him more in line with his name in the Japanese Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros..--Mister Wu (talk) 21:19, 27 November 2018 (EST)

Done, the blueish coloration should be mentioned wherever it's applicable. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:47, 27 November 2018 (EST)

Thanks a lot!--Mister Wu (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (EST)

All-Stars unused palette

https://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars#Unused_Palettes

TCRF states:

"At ROM addresses 235E3 (Super Mario Bros.) and 73447 (The Lost Levels) in the North American version, the palette above can be found, which isn't loaded anywhere. It is a perfect fit for Bowser's sprites: In the original Famicom Disk System version of The Lost Levels, the first Bowsers encountered in Worlds 8-4 and D-4, as well as the one encountered in 9-4, use an alternate bluish palette with darker skin, resembling this palette. This palette swap is often referred to as Bowser's brother in official material. However, all Bowsers in All-Stars use his standard green palette."

This isn't touched upon anywhere on the article and I think at the very least should be mentioned somewhere, maybe in the Trivia section.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 181.43.35.205 (talk).

Interesting! That's a very recent addition to that page, being added in May, hence why it's not on here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:33, August 21, 2021 (EDT)

Do not consider Bowser's blue Super Smash Bros. costume as an appearance of Bowser's Brother

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

failed 3-4
This article covers each and every blue recolor of Bowser in the franchise, but Bowser's blue costume in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is treated as a reappearance because one of his fighter tips seems to claim it as being Bowser's Brother. Although it's not uncommon for separate characters to occupy alternate costume slots (see Koopalings), I do not agree with this interpretation. Here's the text:

• "A Bowser Impostor?! – In Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, Mario fights a blue fake Bowser before the real thing. That blue fake is his eighth color in this game!"

For comparison, two fighter tips from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate explain the origins of Meta Knight's seventh and eighth alternate costumes, but they clearly state that they are references, not appearances of the characters themselves:

• "Galacta Knight – Meta Knight's seventh color variation is based on Galacta Knight, who makes an appearance in Kirby Super Star Ultra and is said to be the strongest warrior in the galaxy.
• "Dark Meta Knight – Meta Knight's eighth color variation is based on a shadow version of Meta Knight, Dark Meta Knight, who appears in Kirby & The Amazing Mirror."

With the lack of a unique name given to the blue Bowser fighter, it is clear that the developers only intended to make a reference, as is the case with most Smash Bros. alternate costumes. The way I see it, the Bowser quote comes off as sloppy writing/translation and insubstantial proof of a technical appearance. (It could even make a better case for being the brother's Spiny imposter in World D-4 instead...)

Passing this proposal would move Super Smash Bros. information in with the rest of the blue recolors.

Proposer: DannyTheDingo (talk)
Deadline: June 14, 2022, 23:59 GMT June 21, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. DannyTheDingo (talk) Per proposal.
2. Bazooka Mario (talk) Don't think this proposal is needed; looks like we just need some minor wording changes and all.
3. WildWario (talk) Per Bazooka Mario.

Oppose

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Can't really argue with the game's own wording, and unlike cases such as the Daisy costume, Bowser and this entity started as the exact same coded object anyway. (I do wonder why this has been getting more relative support so far than my Deep Cheep proposal, which was of the same idea but didn't have the in-game naming aspect to throw a wrench in it at all.)
2. Mister Wu (talk) I agree with Doc. The Japanese text doesn't really suggest a translation mistake having happened, and ultimately from a technical point of view in all his appearances Blue Bowser was just Bowser, his different color just stemmed from the local palette of the area. As such, it makes sense for the developers to say that the blue-colored texture swap of Bowser is Blue Bowser, rather than just a reference like in the case of the Daisy recolor of Peach.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
4. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.

Comments

For reference, we do actually have the Japanese text of the tip, from Super Smash Bros. for Wii U:

にせクッパ!? 『スーパーマリオブラザーズ2』には、青いクッパが登場する。倒すとその先にいつもの緑のクッパがいる。『スマブラ』では8Pカラーで青いクッパになる。

I'm not sure if we can really translate the verb 「なる」 as "is based", the closer we could say is "act as", but we should probably translate that verb as "becomes", i.e. Bowser becomes Blue Bowser with the 8P color.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:59, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

Thanks for this. Sounds more like a transformation than a tag team. Would either "embody", "signify" or "perform" be viable? DingoHazel [00525] 15:58, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

Regardless of what happens I'd prefer for the information to remain in the history section. The other section talks about other blue recolors of Bowser, but we know that the Smash alt is based on Bowser's Brother thanks to the tip. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:56, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

That's fair. DingoHazel [00525] 15:58, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

Since there are no votes and it is very early, I have removed the last sentence in my proposal. Please let me know if this is wrong. DingoHazel [00525] 16:19, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

It's allowed to alter TPPs within three days of making them, you're good. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:27, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

As Waluigi Time said, I feel it's a similar situation to Daisy-colored Peach where the color is clearly not an appearance of the character, but a reference, but it should still be mentioned in the article. Similar example is Mario's brown-tan/white recolor being a reference to Foreman Spike[1]; DK's white recolor being later appropriated as a reference to Super Kong despite the recolor predating Super Kong[2]. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:34, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

I agree 100%. I never said it should be outright removed. DingoHazel [00525] 04:57, June 1, 2022 (EDT)

Move to Fake Bowser (Blue)

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

failed to reach consensus 14-15
This is a little similar to my Moneybag proposal, but this time I'm even more sure since we're dealing with completely different names that couldn't just be typos. It seems we have two choices for an English name for this guy: "Bowser's Brother" from a mention in an old 90s Nintendo Power guide, and "Fake Bowser (Blue)" from the significantly more recent English Mario Portal. (He was also called "A Bowser Impostor?!" in the title of a loading screen tip from Smash, but that's probably just a description rather than a name, considering all the tip titles use Title Case capitalisation, and Mario Portal's more recent either way.) So why are we using "Bowser's Brother" over "Fake Bowser (Blue)"? Not only does the current name lose in both recency and source priority, it's also a bit weird to use since it suggests for certain that he is the brother of Bowser, when we have official sources both outright saying that he is and outright saying that he isn't. And Mario Portal potentially citing the wiki shouldn't be an issue at all this time, since I don't think we ever called him "Fake Bowser (Blue)" - our previous name for him was "Blue Bowser", an unofficial translation of a Japanese name.

Proposer: Hewer (talk)
Deadline: July 7, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to July 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to July 21, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to July 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Hewer (talk) Per Proposal (Blue)
2. Jdtendo (talk) Per proposal.
3. DrBaskerville (talk) Per all.
4. Arend (talk) This guy was only stated to be Bowser's twin brother ONCE. In most other sources, even as recent as Smash Bros. for Wii U, he's stated to be an imposter or a fake. A Japanese guide for Lost Levels even mocks readers for believing this Bowser and the real one are twins. The more recent Fake Bowser (blue) name from the Mario Portal reflects this more accurately, and it definitely didn't come from us either.
5. DesaMatt (talk) Per all.
6. EvieMaybe (talk) fake per all (blue)
7. Cadrega86 (talk) per all.
8. Shadow2 (talk) Yes, YES, this has driven me nuts ever since I first saw it.
9. Super Mario RPG (talk) Per proposal
10. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
11. Seandwalsh (talk) Yeah this one’s been a long time coming. Per all. While the new name isn’t the most accurate to his not-fake-ness it’s certainly better than the previous one.
12. Technetium (talk) Per all.
13. Biggestman (talk) Per all.
14. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) I don't get how this is even a remotely controversial proposal; the name is derived from a website, which takes higher priority than a name used in a game guide. We should use Bowser's Brother's name in context of his earlier appearances though, similar to what we did with Paragaloomba, because it was a valid name when the game first came out. Any future appearances of this character should be referred to as the "blue Fake Bowser." The opposition's arguments completely reject the naming policy because of the localizers deciding to make him a twin. None of this refutes any of the arguments the proposal makes and just wants to keep the name because, "it's more popular," and the fact that the website uses the encyclopedia. You could argue for Bomber Bill's name, but at least Banzai Bill's name has appeared in-game. The closest thing to this Fake Bowser's name ever getting an official name in-game is as a "Bowser Imposter" which could be written off as a generic name for him.

Nintendo101 (talk) Per Hewer below. Unlike something like "sewer rat", I do think this is a proper localization. For additional clarity on my initial trepidation, in my mind, a fake Bowser is specifically a smaller enemy disguised as Bowser. It was unclear to me if that is what this blue lookalike is supposed to conceptually be understood to be, and I was open to the possibility that he is another member of Bowser's species, not an enemy in disguise. However, he is revealed to be a fake in-game, in the last level he occurs in, and I agree recent Japanese media like Smash Wii U more often promotes him as one. (I don't understand the article as currently framed. It suggests the Japanese tip is more neutral about his identity, but the title for the tip is "Fake Bowser!?") And regardless, "Fake Bowser (Blue)" is probably more accurate than "Bowser's Brother".

Oppose

1. PrincessPeachFan (talk) Simply because Bowser's Brother is a more memorable name.
2. LinkTheLefty (talk) There's no particularly great name, but in my assessment, "Fake Bowser (Blue)" is worse. For one thing, I still disagree with the idea of a source that came decades later and doesn't coincide with a modern re-release supplanting the physical, contemporary guides of the original game (or at least, its reissues), both of which refer to Bowser's brother. Moreover, while it was clearly the devs having fun, calling it a "fake" Bowser is a misnomer. As we know, the actual fakes show themselves to be something else when they're defeated with fireballs. In the original, Bowser's other has both real (8-4 & 9-3) and fake (D-4) versions. If the former is another fake Bowser, what do we call the latter now? Faker?
3. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all. (blue)
4. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per LTL. It's even more confusing to call it a "Fake Bowser" when it's only sometimes a Fake Bowser and sometimes a "real" Bowser on defeat.
5. Mister Wu (talk) While him being Bowser’s Brother was merely an early ‘90s thing, Blue Bowser not being a fake Bowser has always been a main trait of him, and the corresponding Japanese Mario Portal name is indeed Bowser (Blue), not Fake Bowser (Blue). If anything, Fake Bowser (Blue) should be the fake version of Blue Bowser of World D-4.
6. ReeceeYT (talk) Per all.
7. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all, especially Mister Wu.
8. Shoey (talk) Per all
9. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Mister Wu. A move to merely "Bowser (Blue)" would make more sense under our current rules than "Fake Bowser (Blue)"--what this guy even is is unclear, but like, a Fake Bowser is the one thing we know that he isn't. ;P
10. Nintendo101 (talk) Per all, especially Mister Wu and my original issues with "Fake Bowser (Blue)".
11. Pseudo (talk) Per LinkTheLefty and Mister Wu.
12. Axis (talk) Per all
13. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.
14. Soshi The Yoshi (talk) Per all.
15. SuperBallBro (talk) Per all, The article should keep it's name, Bowser's Brother is very intersting and special character than calling him a Fake Bowser (Blue). This would be confusing with the Fake Bowser (article) being a it thing. This article of Bowser's Brother should remain the same.

Comments

I'm flat out weary of using Mario Portal for recent names because several names, e.g. Sewer Rat are quite blatantly lifted from us and Bowser's Brother is simply a more unique name. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 13:04, June 24, 2024 (EDT)

I think "Fake Bowser (Blue)" is a proper localization, but I would rather whatever name we prioritize is accurate. The impressions I have from the most recent material published suggests to me that Nintendo, Co. Ltd. (Japan) wants to keep the true identity of this character ambiguous, whereas Nintendo of America has decided it makes more conceptual sense to keep it clear that there is only one Bowser in the main platform games, thus preferring to refer to this character as type of a "Fake Bowser". Personally, I think the most accurate name to adopt would be "Bowser (Blue)", but that rendering has never been adopted by NoA. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:42, June 24, 2024 (EDT)

I think the character's name and the character's often changing identity should be regarded separately from each other, and we try to use names that match the most recent English usage. My main reason for wanting this move is because one name is more recent than the other by a few decades on top of having higher source priority, the brother identity thing was more of a side point in case anyone else found that convincing. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:53, June 24, 2024 (EDT)

Fake Bowser (Blue) didn't come from us, I already addressed that in the proposal. We've used plenty of Mario Portal names already that may or may not have come from us. And memorability of a name is subjective and not something that matters to the wiki's naming policy (and I wouldn't call "Bowser's Brother" the most inspiring name either). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:53, June 24, 2024 (EDT)

isn't an official name coming from a conjectural name kind of like a fan suggesting a name and the creators adopting it? doesn't make it any less official. if they say it's the name, it's the name, no matter where they got it from. EvieMaybe (talk) 23:56, June 25, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah I agree that fan names can become official names, that's just not what happened in this case. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:27, June 26, 2024 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty: I don't think your idea of rejecting modern names because they were on a website not linked to a particular modern game is supported at all by the naming policy, and I honestly don't really understand the logic behind it, the policy makes clear that newer names take priority over older names as far as article titles go, separate from us using older names when talking about older games. And I agree that "Fake Bowser (Blue)" isn't really a great name, but the policy certainly doesn't allow us to reject official names just because of our personal gripes with them. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:00, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

And as I was trying suggest during the other proposal: I think it would be way more beneficial to get a consensus on if an under-discussed policy change that bends the spirit of general "at-the-time" philosophy was the right move or not instead of making smaller proposals that go along with it without question and making it harder to deal with later. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:08, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

The naming policy has encouraged prioritising the most recent name since its creation in 2010. The "at-the-time" clause has stated that "the newest name generally takes greater priority" ever since it was officially added to the policy in 2018. I don't see how the fact that this particular recent name comes from Mario Portal means it "bends the spirit" of the rules. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:06, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

And I explained why right in my vote: it flat-out contradicts the in-game fact that he has his own fake. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:40, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

I don't really see how it does, he's still a fake Bowser in the sense that he is a Bowser impostor. Either way, it doesn't make it less of an official name, and it's not the first time he's been called a fake, which goes back to at-the-time sources. And what does that have to do with using legacy names or "bending the spirit" of the rules, anyway? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:56, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

Look, if it was "Bowser (Blue)" instead, I think this proposal would make perfect sense. I might even agree with that as an appropriate name that meets in the middle. As it stands, "Fake Bowser (Blue)" was clearly a translation overshoot that originally came from the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia and was likely made without awareness of the extra fake. It's trading one inconsistent interpretation for another inconsistent interpretation, and doesn't really solve anything long-time. I'm not interested in repeating myself in circles to get my point across. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:11, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

How was it "clearly" a translation error? In the "Identity" section on the article, I count five other sources calling him a fake Bowser, three being "at the time" sources, and all being Japanese. This feels like too shaky a reason to reject an otherwise valid official name. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:54, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

You know we've both contributed to the Identity section. We're focusing on the subject name, not the profile description (putting aside for a moment that the English side has been consistent about it being Bowser's brother up until the Super Smash Bros. tip). In terms of names, the Japanese side has very consistently left "fake" out of his name except for one time, even when he's sometimes alluded to as a fake. There are obviously less English sources to pull from; however, you know as well as I do that the English-language sources that added "Fake" to his name did not have that word in the original Japanese. Now considering that the originator for "Fake Bowser (Blue)" was the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, I doubt the research was done on their end into all of these obscure references. This is, very clearly, one of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia holdovers in Mario Portal, due to the same oddity being repeated. In fact, every other language is more in line with the Japanese and leaves the word "Fake" out. Therefore, I don't think it's sustainable. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:28, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

I thought that the point you were making was that the name was inaccurate because he's not really a fake. So are you actually saying that his English name shouldn't call him "Fake" because his Japanese names usually don't? Differences between English and Japanese names are nothing unusual and aren't necessarily mistakes just because they aren't perfect matches, and even if the Japanese names don't usually call him a fake, that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong to call him one. The Mario Portal translators could easily have just decided that, for whatever reason, "Fake Bowser (Blue)" should be the English name, and I think it's our job to reflect that. And if they did take it from Encyclopedia, I already argued on the Moneybag proposal why I don't think that matters, but here it should be even less of a problem since the name doesn't come from the wiki anyway. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:58, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

I certainly think it mattered back when you started with the Moneybag proposal that you didn't know or care that "moneybags" was slang to begin with, but I digress. If you insist on pointing to current naming policy, don't forget this important nugget: "Exceptions include naming errors, translation errors, and use of aliases/nicknames...It is up to the users to find and determine what the naming errors, translation errors, and use of aliases/nicknames are." In other words, we have the capacity to think for ourselves, and I for one say this is an error of some kind because it is inaccurate to his own game in which there is a clear real one and a clear fake one. Again, neither is great, but "Fake Bowser (Blue)" does not improve matters. The thought that "it's our job to reflect that" would be nice if they had any intention of doing anything with this character. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:46, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

My argument in the Moneybag proposal was never that "Moneybags" was a completely unfathomable name, just that "Moneybag" makes sense too, so no I don't think it being slang had any bearing. Anyway, enough sources call the blue Bowser a fake (which he essentially is in comparison to the actual Bowser) that I don't feel like we can call this a mistake so confidently, and I don't see how the character's lack of appearances is relevant at all. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:12, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

Except there are more sources that distinguish the blue Bowser as an entity uniquely separate from the other fake Bowsers; in fact, outright calling him a "fake Bowser" and connecting him in with the seven green fakes was a later development that seemingly started around the Japanese release of All-Stars, and was probably due to the recolor (which is another thing - he's not always blue!). LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:28, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

Also, I just realized something: the timing of this proposal is inconvenient considering The Lost Levels is one of the games in Nintendo World Championships: NES Edition and there's a possibility that the game's "classified information" tips or challenge statements might bring him up. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:35, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

I don't think it being a later development is necessarily a problem (the name I'm proposing was a later development after all, as is the current name since it's also All-Stars era), and while he isn't always blue, if we are trying to match the Japanese names and want one that mentions neither his blueness nor his fakeness, it seems we're out of luck. World Championships is a good point though, I guess we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:23, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

@Mister Wu: I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that him not being a fake Bowser has "always been a main trait of him" when, as I mentioned earlier in these comments, we do have a few sources calling him a fake Bowser. It doesn't really seem like this character has any consistent traits beyond resembling Bowser. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:28, June 30, 2024 (EDT)

From a naming point of view, the naming has been inconsistent until the Encyclopedia in Japan, after which they finally settled for Bowser (Blue), as confirmed by the Mario Portal. In English this proposal alone shows how troublesome is the naming situation. What I was talking about however is that the first Bowser you meet in World 8-4 of Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, including the Super Mario All-Stars remake, is an actual Bowser, when you defeat him with fireballs he’s revealed to not be a character in disguise. It’s worth noting how this is one of the primary reasons why this page exists to begin with. There’s no denying that even Japanese material used the fake Bowser terminology until recently, but game-wise he never was one to begin with, which is likely why they eventually settled for the original Bowser (Blue) name. Most importantly, they used the Bowser (Blue) term in the Mario Portal, and since we’re now going to use a term from the English translation of said portal, noting the mistake in the translation, likely stemming from a transcription of the English Encyclopedia name, is legitimate and even mentioned in the naming policy:

In these cases, the newer name will replace the older one with certain exceptions. Exceptions include naming errors, translation errors, and use of aliases/nicknames..—Mister Wu (talk) 10:05, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

How can we say it was a translation mistake with so much certainty? Even if he's not one of the fake Bowsers, he is still a fake Bowser in the sense that he resembles Bowser but is not Bowser. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:22, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

Two simple reasons:

1) it literally is a wrong translation of the corresponding Japanese name in the same page, which is just Bowser (Blue)

2) not only that, but this translation mistake passes Bowser (Blue) as a blue variant of a different enemy that is in the same page, Fake Bowser. This again is not present at all in the corresponding Japanese text.

All this compounds in saying something the corresponding Japanese text doesn’t say at all, in fact the Japanese text says that this enemy is a different variant of Bowser, not of a Fake Bowser, which is a different enemy in the same page!—Mister Wu (talk) 10:59, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

Like I said earlier, different translation ≠ wrong translation. No one's arguing that "Bowser" is a mistranslation of "Koopa", are they? And if "Fake Bowser (Blue)" is unacceptable because it's not an exact translation of the Japanese and it adds an implication not present in the original name, then how is "Bowser's Brother" any better? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:30, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

First of all, I was against the use of Bowser’s Brother name, secondly, we’re talking now about the specific source of the name which is being proposed, that is really inconsistent with the original, and in a really misleading way. If you propose a better source, we can discuss, but the current source is a site where Fake Bowser (Blue) is a mistranslation, and one that somehow misses the point even worse than Bowser’s Brother, because that site is about the Family Computer Disk System version of Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels and in that game the specific reason why Bowser Blue has its own separate listing to begin with is that it is not is a Fake Bowser. Bowser’s Brother is a terrible term in my opinion, and one I don’t like having as page title, but at least acknowledges him being a separate entity from Fake Bowsers. In short: the current source of Fake Bowser (Blue) has severe issues, as it is clearly a case of translation that fully misses even the basics.—Mister Wu (talk) 13:43, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

I really don't get why you're acting like him not being fake is so indisputably the case that the English name must be wrong, when even Japanese sources have called him fake multiple times. Sure, you can try to explain it as them deciding with Encyclopedia to stop calling him a fake from then on (even though one of the Japanese sources calling him a fake released around the same time), but that's completely speculative and no more valid than if I were to conjecture that the English translators truly thought "Fake Bowser (Blue)" was the better English name (which I don't think is anywhere near as improbable as you're suggesting - again, he is a character who is like Bowser but is not Bowser, ergo a "fake Bowser", and he is blue). I don't really think the name "Fake Bowser (Blue)" fails to acknowledge him as separate from fake Bowsers any more than "Bowser (Blue)" implies he is the same character as Bowser (it doesn't), and it feels like way too shaky a reason to reject an otherwise valid name. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:07, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

I’m sorry that the conversation isn’t getting anywhere. A simplified view of my point is: in the source the original name refers to enemy A in the list of said site, the translation refers to enemy B of the same list, in-game the reference to enemy A is closer than the reference to enemy B, so I personally am against using the translation of the source. That is really all.—Mister Wu (talk) 14:23, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

It's not even a wrong translation, given that there is actually one instance where this Bowser was called "Fake Bowser" in Japanese (or rather, "Nise Koopa", which literally means "Fake Bowser"). In contrast, this blue Bowser has never been called Bowser's brother in Japan; while there's one instance where a Japanese guide states him to be Bowser's twin, it was done to mock those who thought he was Bowser's twin. So, one could argue that "Bowser's Brother" is actually the wrong translation, NOT "Fake Bowser (Blue)". rend (talk) (edits) 11:37, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

Actually, there are twoMedia: SMCE pages 144 145.png examplesMedia: SMBD page 36.png from two separate publisher that consider him Bowser’s Brother. Both books are stated to be written in collaboration with Nintendo.—Mister Wu (talk) 13:43, July 1, 2024 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock: "Bowser (Blue)" would make no sense under our current rules because it's not an official English name, and again, whether he's a fake or not is very inconsistent, just like whether he's a brother. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:02, July 5, 2024 (EDT)

Would "Bowser (Blue)" still be allowed as a redirect? -- FanOfYoshi 09:42, July 6, 2024 (EDT)

I guess so, but that doesn't really have anything to do with this proposal. As an article title, "Bowser (Blue)" is about as valid as just going back to calling him "Blue Bowser". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:27, July 6, 2024 (EDT)

Well, Nintendo World Championships: NES Edition is out now. As suggested by LinkTheLefty earlier, can anyone confirm if it refers to this character at all? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 21:36, July 19, 2024 (EDT)

Seems unlikely if the list of challenges on the article is taken to be comprehensive, since none of the levels with this character appear to be featured in the game. Pseudo (talk) (contributions) 23:05, July 19, 2024 (EDT)