Talk:Toad

Toad Talk
Archive 1 (1-50)

Merge Toad to Toad (Species)

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

do not merge 2-13
This has gone on for far too long. All this talk about "this toad is the Toad" "no this toad is the Toad" has to stop. Enough is enough! Nintendo isn't making it easier by changing their story all the time on whether or not there is a singular Toad. I think the safest thing to do is exactly what my proposal says. We need to merge this article to the article for the species, and if there's anything in the article about one of the toads that's often confused to be Toad, we can move that information there.

If this proposal passes, I will make similar proposals for Yoshi, Birdo, and Kamek (although I don't really know about Kamek since the English for the species is Magikoopa).

Proposer: Magikrazy (talk)
Deadline: December 20, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

No Toad, merge with species

1. SmokedChili (talk) Well this is a surprise, someone actually did what I would have done. Nevertheless, I might as well be the only other person to support this. From what I've seen, the majority of these "the" Toad appearances and bios are the result of this Wiki's intepretation. What exactly gives "the" Toad his distinct persona again? His name? Interchangable with other Toads. His personality? Not much different from generic Toads. The use of pronoun "he"? Besides gender (note: Toads are sexless, not genderless) and specifics, that's applicable to generic Toads. The bios? When generic enemies have their own bios which treat them as their own characters, this point is moot. The appearance? Okay, this might have some merit, but that's only depending on the game. I don't count games where multiple Toads with the standard look appear, and I'm still skeptical about games where only one Toad with the standard look is playable, because in Mario games, the standard look gets usually priority, expections including 3D World and Sticker Star. As I said in the deleted Toad related proposal, I consider the Japanese Mario fans lucky, because they aren't bothered to argue about which Toad is "the" Toad, because to them it seems clear the generic Toads don't have much going for them.
2. Aokage (talk) The "3D World Blue Toad = the Toad" decision is a prime example of how people are just labeling whichever Toad they want as the Toad. Had they known Captain Toad was going to get a bigger role in his own game, they probably would've wanted him to be the Toad instead. It's clear that Nintendo - especially NoJ - doesn't really have this concept of "Toad the Toad".

There is a Toad, keep

1. Baby Luigi (talk) Though the issue is very muddled, this is a very radical decision and will affect a ton of articles on the wiki. Nevertheless, there are countless sources where Toad is portrayed as his own character. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show is one of them, as well as numerous character bios. I'm not going to much detail about this but there is indeed a Toad that exists and this route is just the easiest route that will simply cause more controversy than there already is.
2. Time Turner (talk) Regardless of who's who, there's still clearly is an individual Toad that has appeared throughout the games: Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario 64 and its remake, Wario's Woods, the cartoons, the comics, all of the spin-offs, and probably some other stuff... Vaporizing all of that individuality because of some tussling between newer games is an extreme absolute that would cause so much more of a mess than it's worth.
3. Mario (talk) I'm not comfortable with this change. As opposers said, Toad does have his own identity, and I'd rather not sacrifice individuality just because he looks the same. We have a good compromise called the "Possible appearances", which should do its job at this confusion. I don't see any problem with what we're working with, and I feel that there's no need to change it.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per all. I haven't been following the Blue Toad/Captain Toad debacle too closely, but it wouldn't change Toad's history.
5. Toadbrigade5 (talk) There is a Toad species, and a Toad. This has been confirmed in every game. We are not to change the facts of a game. And shame you for even trying to. We might merge Mario and Human if we do this. Thats like merging you and user. Seriously, this is STUPID. And per all.
6. Walkazo (talk) - Per Baby Luigi, Time Turner and Mario. The non-game media are just as relevant as the games, and both they and earlier games have singular Toad characters. Nowadays we also have Captain Toad and a Blue Toad filling the roles that the Toad had before: it confuses the issue, but it doesn't invalidate the old appearances, and the best thing to do with the mess is to cover everything with as little judgment calls as possible using the Possible Appearances section and three separate pages for the three possible "personas" Nintendo picks from. Merging the Toad's character page would be going in the complete opposite direction if we want to be thorough and transparent.
7. 3D Player 2004 (talk) Per Walkazo.
8. Ghost Jam (talk) Per Walkazo.
9. Sonic98 (talk) Per all.
10. Madz the Penguin (talk) There is "the Toad". It's confirmed in Mario Kart games, Mario Party games, Mario shows, etc. He might be hard to find, but he's there. Also, if we merge Toad and his species, then we may have tons of ridiculous debates like, "should we merge Toadette with Toad species? Toad was merged, and there are tons of Toadettes out there!".
11. BabyLuigi64 (talk) We know there is "the" Toad because we see him (it?) enough, and we know when we see "the" Toad because there is something to distinguishing him from other red-spot-capped Toads, and that is his blue vest. We know he's not just another random Toad. Per the above.
12. Magikrazy (talk) Ok, so I was incorrect. I have since realized that Toad's Japanese name is different from the other toads. Knowing this, I believe that the toad with the blue mushroom cap and vest is Toad, and Captain Toad is not.
13. Paper Iggy Koopa (talk) Per All, this article will become improperly grammimatical due to the fact saying "Toad is toad" every 5 seconds of reading

Comments

I'll have more to say later when I can get to a computer. All that I'll say for now is that the cartoons, comics, etc are not canon and shouldn't count. Even if they did, nowhere is it mentioned that the toad in one episode or issue is the same in the others. Is it because they have the same look and voice? A lot of the birds by my house look and sound the same, but that doesn't mean they're all one bird. As for the games, some of them have a lone toad in them, but it never states that all these are the same toad. The fact they're all referred to as Toad shows that they're all just generic toads and should be treated as such. Magikrazy (talk)

First of all, canonicity anywhere near the Mario series is completely irrelevant and generally not a good practice, but besides that, the Toad that appears in all of these mediums are never referred to as a Toad (which would lead to the thought process that the Toads are merely generic), only simply as Toad, heavily implying, if not outright confirming, that these Toads are all one and the same. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

"A lot of the birds by my house look and sound the same, but that doesn't mean they're all one bird."

Um, you're not getting it. We're not arguing that all Toads are clones of Toad himself. Toad, however, is indistinguishable from every other Toad, which makes it confusing, but he still has his own identity.

A better analogy is this: there are a lot of crows around my house. They all look the same, but one recognizes me when I leave out peanuts in the yard, and is distinguishable because the bird always comes here at the same time of the day. But really, who knows if it's a pair of clever crows instead? But the crow is still a notable individual that can be confused with her peers, hence why we have an article on Toad. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 17:50, 6 December 2014 (EST)

"I'll have more to say later when I can get to a computer. All that I'll say for now is that the cartoons, comics, etc are not canon and shouldn't count. "

Even if we accept that premise, the wiki still covers characters for the cartoon/comics/movie and thus Toad would still warrant a page because he's clearly treated as an individual character in those. --Glowsquid (talk) 17:34, 6 December 2014 (EST)

@Toadbrigade: I suggest you leave out "this is stupid" remarks since Magikrazy does have a logical reason for attempting to merge the page. Merging "Mario and Human" is a very poor analogy to this as Mario is clearly his own identity while Toad is something far more ambigious. Ray Trace^(T|C) 19:21, 6 December 2014 (EST)

Sorry, I was mad. This is kinda sabotaging my favorite character, but I'm not changing it. Also, DOES he have a logical reason? I seriously doubt it (No offense intended). My examples suck I understand, but still. Toadbrigade5 (talk) 21:31, 6 December 2014 (EST)

As I have said, yes, his reason is logical, even though it is highly flawed. Toad being his own character is a very ambiguous issue that Nintendo is still pretty foggy about, hence why we still have debates about Blue Toad in Super Mario 3D World being Toad and what not. Just as Koopa Troopa doesn't have its own character article and neither does Lakitu, Toad can fall under their scope in not receiving his own article. The problem with Magikrazy's logic, as we all had stated, is that Toad is most certainly established in some games as his own character, whereas Koopa Troopa and Lakitu are not compared to Toad. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:40, 6 December 2014 (EST)

Supporters seem to think that Japanese games never made it clear there was an individual Toad, but there already was a singular "Kinopio" character in at least Super Mario RPG and the Super Mario Bros. anime (and perhaps other spinoff examples). LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2014 (EST)

Cartoons and comics are considered canon because Mario is a very different franchise. It's not like the Legend of Zelda where it has a very clear timeline where non-canon things (like Hyrule Warriors, Faces of Evil, and Wands of Gamelon) aren't there. Mario's timeline is very vague, so it's safe to say everything Mario, even Hotel Mario, is canon, except for fanmade works on Fanfiction or other websites like that. Madz the Penguin (talk) 12:08, 7 December 2014 (EST)

Comment spree~

• @Baby Luigi: If establishing a generic member as "the" member means single pronouns and whatnot, then by all means most of enemies listed in these manuals should get singular character treatment. It's not just old manuals, as some of the playable characters have bios which give them "the" character treatment, yet we don't give them their "the" character pages like "the" Toad because... why?
• @Time Turner: So are Toads in SM3DW Toad Houses simply called Toads, both on official European site and in the soundtrack description.
• @Mario: A crow with unique demeanor is more comparable to Toadette or Toadsworth rather than "the" Toad behavior wise, because they are more fleshed out in that department. Besides, is the behavior the result of special treatment? It can be said that Toadette and Toadsworth got special treatment for their designs, but "the" Toad, said to be distinguished from other generic Toads, is still very generic with no notable differences. He's practically replacable to the point of nothing of value being lost if a Toad posing as "the" Toad was actually there.
• @LinkTheLefty: What exactly are these pics supposed to prove, especially the second one? Just because a Kinopio is called "Kinopio" it doesn't make him "the" Kinopio. And what makes one of those anime Kinopios "the" Kinopio? Her prominence over the others? Or her mere presence? Yes, I'm calling that Kinopio "her", because that's what she is there.

That's all folks. -SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 18:59, 7 December 2014 (EST)

@SmokedChili: The first picture proves that Kinopio is treated in Super Mario RPG in the same way that Toad is treated in our version - as a single recurring character. His dialog box uniquely identifies him even among a small crowd, and doesn't apply to any other generic Toads that show up (also noted when he's not in the castle). In addition, his species is unnamed in that particular appearance, so at least as far as that game's story is concerned, there is only one Toad/Kinopio. As for the anime film, that retainer says his/her/its name is Kinopio, and (if memory serves) the other members of the species are called mushroom people by the sage character. You might consider these artistic licenses, but it is what it is. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2014 (EST)

So if some generic Toad is called "Toad", that's automatic evidence for "the" Toad? And if キノコー族 "Mushroom People" is used of them, then there has to be the specific キノピオ Kinopio? I find that questionable. キノコー族 refers to the entirety of Toads, which includes the generic Toads, Toadette, Toadsworth etc. Invidual generic Toads are still called キノピオ, which makes it more likely that there are multiple unspecific Toads than "the" Toad somewhere. Check the Japanese Mario 3 manual for example. In it, Kinopio is said to wish good luck to the Mario Bros. along with Peach, yet there are multiple キノピオの家 Kinopio Houses found in the game. So where is "the" Kinopio then? Related to that, in 3D World, we have at least two Kinopios: the playable one, and one in Kinopio House going by this. If the color change is justified, then either could "the" Kinopio, or not. And considering more and more evidence points to Captain Kinopio being "the" Kinopio, conflicting with 3D World Kinopio being him, it could be said that "the" Kinopio's status in 3D World is indefinite. -SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:13, 8 December 2014 (EST)

You're looking at the series as a whole; I'm looking at specific instances and thinking, "what does that particular story consider these characters?" It's fairly obvious that the writers of Super Mario RPG deliberately interpreted Toad/Kinopio as a name for one character. Like I stated as my stance, new information doesn't outright rewrite history - if the creators want to make certain things their "current story", it is so, but it doesn't completely replace the old one. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:42, 8 December 2014 (EST)

@Magikrazy, you weren't incorrect. Toads, excluding the the few named ones such as Toadette and Toadsworth, are all known as Kinopios in Japan. Aokage (talk) 10:14, 8 December 2014 (EST)

@LinkTheLefty: Of course new info doesn't outright rewrite history, but it doesn't take out the fact that generic Toads' inviduality among each other hasn't been that clear since day one. Super Mario RPG may be an expection, but expections shouldn't warrant their own pages for the sake of clarification. Like the Flopsy Fish article. It's redundant in the presence of the Cheep Cheep article, which already acknowledges that "Flopsy Fish" is just an alternative name. Likewise, Toad (species) article can mention in case of merging that there is one Toad who is called "Toad" in Super Mario RPG. It wouldn't be that different from how the Cheep Cheep deals with Flopsy Fish, and doesn't downright rewrite history. -SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:36, 8 December 2014 (EST)

Hebrew name

In the Hebrew dub of TSMBSS, he is called פטריון (Pitrion). RaguRando (talk) 14:30, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

Does it mean anything in particular, or is it a common Hebrew name? Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 14:42, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

It's based on the word פטרייה (Pitriya, mushroom). RaguRando (talk) 15:51, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

Okay, that's interesting. Thanks for the info! Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 16:01, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

3D Land Toad

Why is the SM3DW's playable Toad considered the original Toad? It's much more likely that Captain Toad is the same as this page's red Toad. If anything this blue Toad is just a filler playable character to replace the now independent original.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by anjeronett (talk).

At this point, it seems more like there just plain isn't a Toad character, and all the ones that have ever been identified as such are just generic members of the species. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:44, 19 February 2018 (EST)

Without delving in that definitely hot topic, the reason is that even the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. names the Toad of Super Mario 3D World 「キノピオ」, rather than 「あおキノピオ」, the name of Blue Toad. And after all, Toad in Super Mario Bros. 2 was fully blue, and it's pretty clear that the characters' part of Super Mario 3D World was inspired by that game. Anyway, regarding the matter of Captain Toad, there is this very interesting excerpt from the Super Mario Pia, the 25th anniversary memorial book, which was translated by 2257 (talk):

キノピオ
キノコ王国の住人たち。ピーチをさらわれてマリオに助けを求めるのがお約束のシリーズを代表するキャラで、赤色や黄色などカラーはさまざま。また、キノじいやキノピオ隊長など固有の名前をもつものもいる。
登場作品 SM, SM2, SM3, USA, SM64, SMS, NSM, SMG, NSMW, SMG2, 3DL, NSM2, NSMU, 3DW

Toad
The inhabitants of the Mushroom Kingdom. Seeking Mario's help when Peach has been kidnapped is a typical characteristic representing this series [of characters], and they come in various colors such as red and yellow. Also, there are some who have unique names, such as Toadsworth, Captain Toad, and the like.
Appears in works: SMB, SMBTLL, SMB3, SMB2, SM64, SMS, NSMB, SMG, NSMBW, SMG2, SM3DL, NSMB2, NSMBU, SM3DW.

Captain Toad, who has his own entry in the characters' section of the book, is not considered the same as Toad in that he has a unique name which is not just Toad, and now he has his own appearance too.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:16, 21 March 2018 (EDT)

This section also does not seem to be referring to the "character" of "Toad," given that there was no specified "character" named that in most of those games, while NSMB just had multiple copies of Toadsworth outside of minigames. As such, it doesn't really imply that it is the same "character," but rather that there is no consistent "character." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:18, 10 April 2018 (EDT)

It was confirmed that toads "cap" cannot be removed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVNYfoFcrZY is my source. as far as i can tell, this is nintendo's official youtube.(it's a copy/paste link, not sure it will work)
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Random (talk).

Already in the article. 17:24, 23 February 2018 (EST)

Split Toad (item) from Toad

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

merge to 1-Up Mushroom 4-5-0
Despite the fact that the Hotel Mario manual describes the Toad item as "TOAD" himself, it describes this as awkwardly as the aforementioned game itself. This specific "mushroom" isn't even a character, and barely even resembles Toad - it's just an item that grants an extra life when Fire Mario stands near an open door. Considering we've recently re-split Morty Mole from Mega Mole, I think I'm seeing a similar case here (especially revolving around 1-Up Mushrooms), and would like to hear users' opinions on this.

Proposer: Toadette the Achiever (talk)
Deadline: April 10, 2018, 23: 59 GMT

Split into its own article

1. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per proposal.
2. LinkTheLefty (talk) This is basically an interpreted composite of both Toad and 1-Up Mushroom to the point that it barely resembles either and would be better off in its own article. Per Toadette.
3. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) When replacing the sprite back in 2016, I found it strange to be put in the main Toad article. I didn't question it because I didn't know much about it and Hotel Mario is an obscure title that Nintendo doesn't even want to consider canon, let alone fans. I was just concerned about replacing the sprite at the time. Splitting makes sense, now the topic has been revisited. I had since forgotten about it.
4. Baby Luigi (talk) Per all.

Merge over to 1-Up Mushroom

1. Waluigi Time (talk) Based on the 1-Up alternatively being called Extra Mario Mushroom in SMW, I'm more in favor of a merge with 1-Up Mushroom.
2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per my comments.
3. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
4. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) At the time of my previous vote, this option didn't exist. I am also OK with this option because the Hotel Mario Toad behaves like a 1-Up Mushroom.
5. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.

Comments

The game's version of Banzai Bill isn't that much bigger than than a usual Bullet Bill (or really any different design-wise for that matter), but still we stick to how Fantasy Factory / Philips Media presented their game. I think the question is, why should we change what's already there in print? (And how is this similar to the Mega Mole / Morty Mole situation?) LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:38, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

May I see a scan of the infamous enclosed instruction book so I can be absolutely sure what this says? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:17, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

This was what the manual read: "If Fire Mario opens a door with a Super Mushroom behind it, the mushroom turns into TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom. He gives Mario an extra life." I don't actually own the manual, but here's a link to it. Hope that helps! ^(T|C) 17:30, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

And the "Mario's Friends" section just says "Toad" and annunciates the sentence as if it were a character. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

That's not to say that we have the Toad move split from the character. ^(T|C) 17:49, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Well, I actually just went ahead and scanned the relevant pages in my own manual, but looks like there is no need to upload it anymore (mine is apparently a European copy with three more languages, and for some reason, Monty Mole is missing from the English instructions but still there in the other three, among other oddities). I do want to point out, though, that "Coins", "Super Mushroom", "Fire Flower", and "Star Man" are also listed as "Mario's Friends" in the manual, and those can't really be considered characters. On the other hand, it's called "Toad" more than once in the manual, and it appears in different circumstances than a normal 1-Up Mushroom. Just to clarify, this proposal would turn Extra Mario Mushroom into its own article separate from both Toad and 1-Up Mushroom, correct? LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Yes it would, but see my reply to Doc below. ^(T|C) 18:54, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Also want to point out, "Extra Mario Mushroom" is an alternate name for the 1up Mushroom used in Super Mario World. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:05, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Then maybe it should be called Toad (item) instead...? ^(T|C) 18:41, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

@Link-the-Lefty Then what to do about the game's Banzai Bill, which resembles the actual Banzai Bill even less than this resembles the standard 1up? The original 1up was primarily orange, and it was red in SMB2, just a reminder. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:26, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

It is still a little bit bigger than Mario, whereas in most 2D games, Bullet Bill is approximately the size of Small Mario. Besides, a lot of the game's enemy designs are off-model anyway. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Just as every Super Mario World sprite is off-model, and anyways, none of the enemies are any more off-model than this game's "Extra Mario Mushroom." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:58, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

The difference between this item/"character" and everything else in the game is that it is officially given two different names, which are otherwise consistently depicted as two entirely separate subjects everywhere else in the series without exception, as opposed to an unambiguous single name that would place it in one article in a very straightforward manner. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

I see that as more unnecessary obfuscation. It has two names typically reserved for two different things, yes, but it follows the function of one of those things fairly well, and in fact moreso than the counterpart of Wiggler in that game. This should become a multi-option proposal. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:03, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

But it's not like it's only referred to as Toad only once and it never comes up again; it's first seen under Extra Mario Mushroom, where it's described as "TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom" in the same sentence, and then it's switched to Toad in the rest of the manual when it's listed among the other friendly items. This looks like it's a combination of both concepts. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:10, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Except the only thing it borrows from the concept of the character is the name, though I suppose you could stretch the color in as well. This honestly seems to need what currently is happening between Block Boo and Red Boo (while those need switched around). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:34, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

But even if it is indeed closer to one of them over the other in practice, it's still different enough from your average 1-Up Mushroom. "If Fire Mario opens a door with a Super Mushroom behind it, the mushroom turns into TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom." It is directly part of the game's power-up chain (ie. Super Mushroom and Fire Flower), which is never the case in any other game. "Toad looks similar to the Super Mushroom but moves faster." That is a completely unique characteristic exclusive to this appearance. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:50, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

As is the behavior of Wiggler in this game, which is outright incompatible with other appearances so behavior doesn't have much ground to stand on, as it's far more similar than some other things the game throws at us. As for what I was talking about with the Boos, currently, the info for the SMS enemy is on Red Boo while Block Boo has a link to that section, while it should be reversed, and I think that hear, the information should be on 1up Mushroom, as that's what it is, and is just as different from normal as the ones from SMB2 were. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:30, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

The focus here is on the items/"friends", not the enemies. Coins, Super Mushroom, Fire Flower, and "Star Man" are all clearly the same thing as their normal counterparts (even if Super Mario has a different appearance to better suit the gameplay). Toad / Extra Mario Mushroom is definitely the outlier of the five. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:48, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

I believe all gameplay elements should be treated equally regarding support for arguments. Because they should. Saying "one's an enemy and the other's helpful" has no bearing on whether something should be considered more different from their respective normal version. I think you were more on point eight years ago when you said "Go with what's recognizable. We're not creating a separate page for Skeleton Koopa, for example," or something to that effect. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

All right, then, how would you write Hotel Mario's Toad or 1-Up Mushroom in a way that doesn't rely on personal assumptions to discredit the other as mistaken? LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:15, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

I would include it within the 1-up Mushroom article, as functionally, that's what it is, and is given a name for that very item at the time, not to mention being a Mushroom item that gives an extra life. I would put a Template:Template in a Hotel Mario section on Toad's page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

This results in overlap, which splitting resolves. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

It doesn't if the statement on Toad's page goes as "According to the game's manual, the Extra Mario Mushroom is the same as Toad, despite the many irreconcilable differences between the character and item." Then, the ado about needing to be Fire Mario would go on the 1-Up page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:10, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

However this proposal turns out, we're both in agreement that it doesn't belong in the Toad article (at least primarily), yes? So to that end, I would concur that an extra option for moving to the 1-Up Mushroom page should be included. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:32, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: How does that help anything? ^(T|C) 19:45, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Probably due to sharing at least a name as well as a function. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Yeah...even so, it was found that "Extra Mario Mushroom" is only used once to describe the Toad items in the manual, and "Toad" is used far more often. And also take note that we have 1 UP Heart even though they look near-identical to other Hearts and function identical to 1-Up Mushrooms. ^(T|C) 22:07, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

To me it seems more like Hotel Mario's weird version of the 1-up than its own item and would make more sense there. However I still don't think it belongs on this page, since it's definitely not Toad the character. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:08, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

Might I ask you if you can explain more clearly in the introduction why you consider this case similar to the one of Morty Moles? In that case the official name was clearly different. Here, it's the appearance and role which is clearly different, while the official name is the same. I'm guessing that you see the similarity because the internal name of Morty Moles is the official name of Mega Moles, Indy, but I think it would be better if we could know that.--Mister Wu (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2018 (EDT)

Reopening a can of worms

Since Yellow Toad seems to be referred to as simply Toad in NSMBU Deluxe, where Blue Toad is absent, is it possible that "Toad" in SM3DW actually is Blue Toad, and Nintendo didn't feel the need to distinguish between the two because Yellow Toad was absent in that game? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:15, 25 December 2018 (EST)

Remember that Super Mario 3D World was inspired by the NES version of Super Mario Bros. 2, in which Toad was fully blue. His name in both the Nintendo Official Guidebook, the Japanese site as well as the Japanese Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. is just Kinopio, and that carried over in NA material as well. As far as I know, we don't have evidence that he was just meant to be Blue Toad - since the Japanese encycloepdia clearly separated Ao Kinopio from Kinopio, they should have used Ao Kinopio in the Super Mario 3D World section. If you want to dig deeper, you'll find that Kinopio in Japan actually means Toad, a Toad and even the Toads, and you'll soon discover that happened with Yellow Toad's name in New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe is likely just the consequence of a true can of worms that Nintendo revealed in a now obscure game and that we can't face right now, due to its far reaching implications. In any case, as far as Super Mario 3D World is concerned, we don't really have any source that points to him being a non-renamed Blue Toad rather than just Toad with a reference to how he looked in Super Mario Bros. 2.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:58, 26 December 2018 (EST)

I'll further add that since in the Japanese site of New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe Toad is correctly reported as Kiiro Kinopio (= Yellow Toad), we have even less reasons to open can of worms right now!--Mister Wu (talk) 11:09, 26 December 2018 (EST)

Kinopio was heard in the Nintendo Direct, and for the record, while the Super Mario 3D World character is plainly labeled as "Kinopio" everywhere including the game files, that model is renamed "KinopioBlue" in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (as Captain Toad, who was "KinopioBrigade" internally, now takes the generic "Kinopio" slot). LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:26, 26 December 2018 (EST)

This is an interesting finding, thanks for telling us. As you pointed out that's likely due to internal renaming and due to them giving the Kinopio name much less weight than we do here so that individual characters can be named Kinopio without this having any particular implications beside indicating the species they belong to. Still, considering how the Blue Toad is consistently referred to as Kinopio in both official material and even files of the game and is thus known as Toad here in the West, I'm not sure if this internal renaming can lead to particular consequences on our side, or be just another case in which Nintendo is pointing out how we should probably have a different approach toward the characters named Kinopio - something I'm very interested in but I don't think we are ready for right now.--Mister Wu (talk) 12:17, 26 December 2018 (EST)

The Mii dialogue is clearly false though, as we've had several named Toad characters in the RPGs, not to mention Toadette. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:03, 26 December 2018 (EST)

That's likely a side effect of the translation, as Nintendo itself in the Super Mario Pia confirmed that a few Toads, such as Captain Toad and Toadsworth, have a unique name (｢また、キノじいやキノピオ隊長など固有の名前をもつものもいる。｣). I'll try to get the original Japanese text so we can see the actual meaning (very likely that Kinopio isn't really a personal name, but rather a species name, just like how the Super Mario Pia indicates how some Toads have a unique name).--Mister Wu (talk) 12:17, 26 December 2018 (EST)

Well, the actual Japanese text is:

キノピオには、さまざまな色のキノピオがいてその全部を指して｢キノピオ｣って言うんだ。

でもどのキノピオも、とっても真面目で礼儀正しいんだよ!

I think the main misunderstanding is that the text talks about there being different Toads of various colors who are all known as Toad - not that all Toads have Toad as their name.--Mister Wu (talk) 12:43, 26 December 2018 (EST)

I'm not sure that necessarily changes anything. Using this, we could say that Yellow Toad and Blue Toad are both simply named Toad, with the colors being mentioned to differentiate themselves from each other, making the SM3DW Toad very possibly Blue Toad. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:46, 26 December 2018 (EST)

What changes is our approach toward characters named Toad/Kinopio. The material from Nintendo suggests that we should give less weight to that name as we do now, as characters can be named Toad with that name just telling us the species they belong to - actually, they are now telling us that sometimes even the color is omitted and, as such, what would normally be called Blue Toad or Yellow Toad can sometimes be named just Toad! However, as of now, we assume that all characters named just Toad are the same character, and we add a new entry in the main page every time this happens. I think we'd need a proposal to change that and that would be a true can of worms, as you can easily guess.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:00, 26 December 2018 (EST)

Well, this rather recent book from Kadokawa and Gzbrain effectively states that the Toad in Super Mario 3D World is a blue ToadMedia:MCDSZ Toad.png. Granted, it might just be that the author wants to point out the color of each character, as they also specified that Yoshi in Super Mario World is a green YoshiMedia:MCDSZ SMW Yoshi.png, but this would effectively fit in what the Japanese Mii dialogue says about colored Toads being still named Toad at times, as well as what happened with Yellow Toad being often referred to as just Toad in the context of New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:30, April 1, 2020 (EDT)

Nintendo Comics System

Is it just me, or are there way too many words dedicated to the Nintendo Comics System section? There's full-on in-depth plot synopses there, and they're written pretty terribly (presumably by somebody not fluent in English). Should we trim these down a bit? Shadow2 (talk) 03:11, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Maybe, but it is about the only time he's had anything resembling character depth, so it'd make sense for it to be a larger section, just not that large. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Luigi's Mansion 3 needs to be added to possible appearances section

A red toad with a blue vest that is presumably him has been shown to appear in the game why has someone not added that yet? ~~35.136.185.103~~

We can make that determination when the game is out. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Mistake: Toad's first appearance is in Super Mario Bros (1985) not Super Mario Bros. 2

Toad says "Thank you Mario, by the princess is in another castle.". Orhoshmand (talk) 15:28, April 13, 2020 (EDT)

That info is on the Toad (species) page.Duckfan77 (talk) 15:35, April 13, 2020 (EDT)

Kinopio was indeed introduced in Super Mario Bros., but that was without any doubt a species. The first Kinopio character that according to Nintendo was also a recurring one (since he reappeared in Wario’s Woods) is the one of Super Mario Bros. 2, who was also mentioned in the Miiverse interview about Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker for this reason (they wanted to stress how Captain Toad is not the Toad of Super Mario Bros. 2). Since that Kinopio of Super Mario Bros. 2 was a Toad bearing the species’ name and standard appearance, this page ultimately ended up covering all the occurrences of Toad when treated as individual rather than species.—Mister Wu (talk) 19:24, April 13, 2020 (EDT)

Origami King

Hi, was just going through this page and noticed that the Toads in the openings of SPM and Color Splash are classified as "the" Toad, but the one in Origami King's ending is not. Is there a particular reason for this? All seem to fulfill the same role of "Princess Peach's main companion", and still has the trademark red-spots-blue-vest design (though I do know several other Toads in the game also have this distinction). Nothing too big, just wasn't sure if this discussion has been had before. -YFJ (talk · edits) 20:45, January 18, 2021 (EST)

Toad Suggestion

Hello, I suggest using the Mario Party 10 artwork of Toad for his infobox. --ItzTej (talk) 22:15, February 13, 2021 (EST)

We use the most recent, non-stylized version of character artwork for the infobox. Though following that, it would actually be this incredibly small image that would not look good at all, so Super Mario Run's is the next best one. 22:18, February 13, 2021 (EST)

I second using the Mario Party 10 model. It is more recent than Super Mario Run's model as it's actually recycled artwork from Super Mario 3D World in 2013, using older rendering techniques. Toad also is in a neutral pose for the suggested artwork, and not running. -- memoryman3 (talk) 06:04, April 20, 2021 (EDT)

There are lots of other characters whose infobox artwork is derived from old artwork as well, such as Daisy or even Mario. It doesn't matter if it's the "neutral pose" or not. Nightwicked Bowser 06:11, April 20, 2021 (EDT)

Are they the same?

and are they the same? Can a toad be both blue and red? Bubbasour11

Um. Hello?Bubbasour11

There was a discussion about this above. Basically, Nintendo revealed in a not-well-translated Mii dialogue of Mario & Sonic that they sometimes omit the color of the Toad, naming him just Toad. This happened recently also in New Super Mario Bros. Deluxe, as well as in Mario Kart Tour where the names of the power-up variants of the various colored Toads omit the color of the Toad. We do have an official character picture book that refers to the Toad in Super Mario 3D World as Blue Toad. For the moment there haven't been changes though. I fear that this might open a can of worms, as effectively the Toad of Super Mario 3D World is likely fully blue because that was the color of Toad in Super Mario Bros. 2, from which the main characters of Super Mario 3D World and their abilities have been borrowed.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:41, June 25, 2021 (EDT)

Super Mario 64

Isn't it logical to assume that at least one of the Toads within Peach's Castle in SM64 is the character Toad? My best guess is the one in the main hall of the castle, but there's plenty of Toads in the castle. So if he is one of them, he could really be anywhere. In Super Mario 64 DS, another reasonable guess would be the one in the rec room. But is he really squeezing in among his comrades? And if so, which one is he? Broque 20:40, August 2, 2021 (EDT)

This ambiguity issue regarding appearances of the Toad "character" is the entire reason this section exists. 20:49, August 2, 2021 (EDT)

I have honestly always been a bit skeptical about keeping that section for even being speculative in the header. Nightwicked Bowser 20:52, August 2, 2021 (EDT)

If he is in there, then it would be impossible to find him.==Who I am==

I am a Swedish male. I have been on the wiki since March 12, 2023.My favourite Mario games include Super Mario World, Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario Bros. 2. One enemy I really like is the Spiny. My hobbies include reading and playing boardgames. 10:42, March 12, 2023

digit

NSMBU What is "two digits"? --58.176.43.120 06:11, April 30, 2022 (EDT)

If you're referring to "Toad also appears when the player finishes a level with the last two numbers on the time limit matching and rewards the player with a power-up for their achievement.", it means that the last two digits on the Time Limit that are the same, like 099. It's a similar vein as in New Super Mario Bros. where clearing a level where the time limit ends in X11, X22, X33, and so on has the retro level clear theme play and spawns a Toad House. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 14:43, April 30, 2022 (EDT)

I should point out I rewrote the sentence after that comment was posted to be more clear. Nightwicked Bowser 14:46, April 30, 2022 (EDT)

Olympic games trivia

According to the in-game trivia from mario & sonic olympic games tokyo 2020, toad did debut in super mario bros., what's up with that?Linshixi (talk)

It might refer to the Toad species, the character however was established in Super Mario Bros. 2. Nightwicked Bowser 14:14, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

It's probably because the distinction between the "main" Toad and the "other" Toads is really inconsistent between games and other pieces of media (including whether there even IS a "main" Toad), so it's probably lumping them for convenience (which is what Nintendo usually does). Note how some games treat Kamek as a SMW-debut (or at least use the Magikoopa SMW sprite to represent him) since that's a similar situation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:20, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

Toad is also appears in Mario + Rabbids series, why that info is not here?

Toad is appears in Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle as supporting character and make possible cameo in Sparks of Hope. But, why any info about Toad in Mario + Rabbids not there?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheAwesomeMario (talk).

I added a section for Kingdom Battle, however I haven't for Sparks of Hope because that game doesn't feature the Toad character, not even as a "possible cameo". Nightwicked Bowser 05:23, August 13, 2023 (EDT)

Should we start splitting Toad's history?

I think we should start doing this because this page definitely needs to be divided because of it's size. Mario already has this taken care of.TheUndescribableGhost (talk) 20:54, November 1, 2023 (EDT)

Yes, I think so. It's really long, about as long as Peach's is, and Princess Peach's history has already been moved. I really think we should. -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 16:36, December 7, 2023 (EST)

Several users who were splitting lots of history sections have been told to stop doing so, the reason being because we are trying to figure out a different guideline from the 100K byte one. For now, this should wait. Nightwicked Bowser 16:54, December 7, 2023 (EST)

Oh, alright. I didn't know that. Thank you so much for telling me, because I was going to start on this today. Thanks! -- FanOfRosalina2007 (talk · edits) 12:00, December 8, 2023 (EST)

Strange inclusions

This talk page or section has a conflict or question that needs to be answered. Please try to help and resolve the issue by leaving a comment.

I understand I may be poking a bees' nest here, but I find a lot of the games covered in this page to be very strange inclusions. From what I'm noticing, a Toad is covered in this page if, among other, more logical reasons, a Toad in the game is referred to as "Toad" without an indeterminate article. However, it's fairly common for the games to refer to Toads this way. Take Luigi's Mansion 3, for example, where all three Toads are referred to this way. So, let's go through the games whose inclusions I find strange. I won't get into the whole "Possible Appearances" stuff, but

• Super Mario Bros. 3 - Because name. The section covers the Toad that wishes Mario good luck at the start of the story, the Toad working for the king of Grass Land, and the Toad(s) in every Toad's House.
• Super Mario 64 - Because name, due to the English manual saying that Peach and Toad are missing. However, this is a mistranslation: the Japanese version is explicitly plural (Kinopio-tachi, literally "Toads"). And also this is contradicted by another source.
• Luigi's Mansion - Because name. First, there is the 3DS version's manual, more specifically, from what I understand, the part that says you can save the game by talking to Toad. This is true for every Toad in the game, yet the section treats this as referring to only one. Also covers the phone call from a Toad because he introduces himself as "Toad".
• Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon - There are five Toads, all of different colors, and the first one happens to be red. That's it. Not only is this Toad working for E. Gadd's rather than Peach, he's not even called just "Toad". E. Gadd calls him "one of my Toad assistants", "my Toad assistant", "that Toad fellow", and "our Toad friend", and the game generically calls him "the Toad" once.

So, thoughts? Blinker (talk) 13:30, March 29, 2024 (EDT)

The line between Toad the character and Toad the copy-pastes is so blurred that I'm in favor of merging the articles. As you've shown, there are instances where a random member of this species is called "Toad". And while you didn't address it, I'd like to add that the "possible appearances" section is awfully speculative and is not a good look for an encyclopedia. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:51, March 29, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, I feel like the speculative appearance section should just be removed outright. Toads other than The Toad™ have been shown to don the red cap + blue vest motif so I feel like there's really no reason to keep it. Also, when The Toad™ is in a game, the game usually goes out of its way to make it obvious. - Robothing (talk) 02:14, September 14, 2024 (EDT)

They'll call any Toad, "Toad" whenever convenient (New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe). Even if there is a singular red-spotted playable Toad. See Mario Party 9 minigame Toad and Go Seek (the minigame itself repeatedly refers to this blue Toad as "Toad"; e.g. Watch Toad! Find Toad!, there's no qualifying articles like "Find the Toad", or "Find this Toad"). Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 15:20, September 14, 2024 (EDT)