Talk:Urchin

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Can someone please upload a pic of urchin from mario galaxy?F g

Split Mega Urchin and Mini Urchin from Urchin

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split all 5-0

I don't understand why these two things are merged because while it is true that they are in fact just bigger and small versions of Urchins they both have what I believe are official names (QUICK SOMEONE WITH A PRIMA GUIDE FOR NEW SUPER MARIO BROS. WII AND NSMB2 CONFIRM THIS) and they both show differences from regular Urchins because unlike Urchins which swim and roll both of these (I believe) don't move at all. I would also like to add that we have pages for smaller types of enemies like Micro Goomba and bigger types of enemies like Colossal Paratroopa so I fail to see why these pages should be treated differently.

Proposer: Raven Effect (talk)
Deadline: October 5, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Split both

1. Raven Effect (talk) Per my proposal.
2. GreenDisaster (talk) Per proposal.
3. Koopa K (talk) Per them.
4. RandomYoshi (talk) – Per proposal.
5. Tails777 (talk) Yes, it's Mini Urchin alright (though I don't have the NSMBW guide so I can't check that one). But I still say let's-a-split them. Per all.

Unira

According to the article, the Japanese name for these guys is Unira. I realize that, other than being sea urchins, they don't really look the same, but Unira is also the name of the sea urchins from Clu Clu Land. Is mentioning this noteworthy for the article? -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 17:30, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

Two kinds in SMW

Theres some that move on walls and some that go in straight lines. 24.187.191.151 00:16, 23 February 2013 (EST)

Split Urchin and Red Urchin

Red Urchins need an article for itself not to redirect to Urchins

^^^Who are you and why exactly is this split necessary? Red Urchins are just a palette swap after all. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 04:59, 23 August 2015 (EDT)

Super Mario Galaxy Oddities

Super Mario Galaxy Urchins may not be the same enemy. According to the Super Mario Galaxy section of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., their name is actually 「ウニゾー」 (126), or Unizō, and they have a land variant called 「陸ウニゾー」 (128), or Riku Unizō. Oddly enough, in the Super Mario Galaxy 2 section of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., their name was changed: 「ウニラ」 (159) for the underwater version and 「陸ウニラ」 (161) for the land version, instead matching the usual Unira (Urchin). The former is further supported by the game files of both, where "Unizo" and "UnizoLand" are separate objects. It seems as though they were originally intended to be separate species, at least before Super Mario Galaxy 2 material. If nothing else, this is grounds for splitting the land counterpart, so the question is whether to split one or both. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:59, 9 December 2017 (EST)

I've always noted they look distinctly different from other versions, having a different array of spikes and a face that isn't in the ":o" expression the other ones have, not to mention the more aggressive behavior....heh, at this point, maybe the old wiki's slapping "cosmic" on the front of every SMG enemy for differentiation was a bit more accurate than it seemed.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:00, 15 January 2018 (EST)

An update on this situation: I've since checked out the internal files of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and in it, Urchin is called "Unizo" (dvd:/1 Data/files/Object/unizo.arc) and Big Urchin is called "Big Unizo" (dvd:/1 Data/files/Object/unizoBig.arc). This "missing link" further indicates that the developers thought of Unizo as redesigned Urchins before Super Mario Galaxy 2. That, and the English name is unchanged, so completely splitting the Super Mario Galaxy version may be unnecessarily confusing. I still think Land Unizo should be a derived species, though. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:08, 16 January 2018 (EST)

Their original Japanese name being Unira, therefore, does the Super Mario World section in Super Mario Encyclopedia calls them by their original name, or are also called Unizo? I'm just interested. -- FanOfYoshi 05:37, 1 December 2018 (EST)

Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. uses the name Unira everywhere (including Super Mario Galaxy 2) except for Unizo in Super Mario Galaxy. I don't think that the Super Mario Galaxy / Super Mario Galaxy 2 discrepancy is a mistake since this Shogakukan book uses the original names for each game in separate sections for the most part (with few noticeable exceptions like Keronpa Ball, which is a replacement name based on the fact that the featureless Kuromame from Super Mario 64 became the derivative "Keronpa" in Super Mario 64 DS, which is otherwise unreferenced since Snufit's Japanese name was reverted). On top of that, the name Unizo is, so far, used internally in all subsequent appearances of Urchin, including the Big Urchin from New Super Mario Bros. Wii and the Small Urchin from New Super Mario Bros. 2 - it just doesn't make sense for those enemies to persist using a different enemy's label or for a holdover to last this long. My guess is that Unizo was created with the intention of being a new enemy, then they realized that a sea urchin enemy already existed and it was soon given the same name and instead treated as a redesign (maybe consciously as early as English localization), but even then the Japanese developers still use Unizo as a pet name of sorts anyway. Ultimately, knowing that it's far from a one-off thing means it wouldn't be a clean split. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:00, 2 December 2018 (EST)

So you mean that they were intended to be different enemies? -- FanOfYoshi 06:24, 2 December 2018 (EST)

Maybe, in the sense that Grinder and Ukkiki might have been intended to be different enemies at first. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:30, 2 December 2018 (EST)

Have you any internal filenames for the NSMWii NSM2 and NSMU? -- FanOfYoshi 07:07, 2 December 2018 (EST)

They all share the same name: "unizo" (Big Urchin is "unizoBig" and Small Urchin is "mini_unizo"). LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:15, 2 December 2018 (EST)

I think the "Keronpa Ball was renamed as such because it was originally featureless" is not a particularly valid thing to say, as Flame Chomp itself was featureless at the time for the most part as well, only getting a face for about two frames to shoot fire. But that's just my little rant. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:26, 2 December 2018 (EST)

I'm just saying we'd have never made the connection if it weren't for the new name or appearance, and it took until Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. to amalgamate it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:15, 2 December 2018 (EST)

If you suggest splitting the red Urchin, then i'd say it would go by "Urchin (red)" given what i said on the Mini Wanwan talk page. -- FanOfYoshi 11:39, 8 February 2019 (EST)

Unlike the small Chomp, neither guide directly identifies it as "Urchin" at any point. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:43, 8 February 2019 (EST)

"Urchins are spiky blue fish that Mario must face in an underwater challenge in the Beach Bowl Galaxy and a land mission in the Freezeflame Galaxy. They roll along the seafloor or ground trying to poke Mario with their spikes. There are also red Urchins in lava areas that Mario can hit with a fireball or trick into falling into the lava." The trading card description. And since red is not capitalized, it's not intended to be a proper noun, and is considered to be the same, so Urchin (red) could work there. -- FanOfYoshi 11:46, 8 February 2019 (EST)

The "Riku" adjective in its Japanese name "Riku Unizo" and "Riku Unira" might suggest that it is a subspecie as it doesn't use an identifier, and "Riku", as i already mentioned, is an adjective. -- FanOfYoshi 03:33, 9 February 2019 (EST)

Other than that, let's see what people think about the Ground Urchin. -- FanOfYoshi 11:59, 9 February 2019 (EST)

I'd be fine with using "Urchin (red)" as the Japanese distinction is land-based rather than color. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:01, 9 February 2019 (EST)

While "Unizo Land" could be in the {{foreign names}} template. -- FanOfYoshi 12:04, 9 February 2019 (EST)

If i see no objection on it at this point, we can split it without any problem, or proposal. -- FanOfYoshi 08:26, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Also, i'd prefer we leave the SMG info as they still have the same color, including the spikes, and still have the lips. I know many enemies we're off model in this game. What do you think about the red Urchin? I mean, i'm for splitting one. -- FanOfYoshi 12:40, 13 February 2019 (EST)

Just the red/land Urchin. As mentioned above, "Unizo" has a peculiar history as a name for Urchin and its derivatives, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 materials quickly changed it back to the usual name anyway. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:18, 14 February 2019 (EST)

Like i said, if there are no objections on it. -- FanOfYoshi 13:48, 14 February 2019 (EST)

I checked with Niiue about the source priority exception proposal, and was told that this would still count as "Land Unizo". LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:48, 17 February 2019 (EST)

Per what i said on the Mini Wanwan/Chibi Wanwan talk page. Let's just keep-as-is for now. -- FanOfYoshi 11:23, 17 February 2019 (EST)

Perhaps i could make a counterproposal on the Super Mario Encyclopedia source priority proposal, as i'd prefer it depends on guides rather than internal filenames having the priority. Let's say keep as-is until either a Super Mario Encyclopedia proposal to cite part of the book or stop making exception for the priority source for now. I don't want to say that "Land Unizo" is the english name while "Land" is a "loanword" and "Unizo" being the Urchin's Japanese name. -- FanOfYoshi 13:20, 28 February 2019 (EST)

I'll be blunt - your spontaneous MarioWiki:Naming proposals ended up going nowhere (and I supported the internal template), so it probably wouldn't be a great idea to flood that talk page with more proposals. If you'd like to pick up where you left off, I highly recommend first opening a discussion next time. Also, I think your concepts of loanword and romanization are loose, and your stealththought? strikethrough usage is incorrect. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:33, 28 February 2019 (EST)

Speaking of that split, shouldn't it be Riku Unizo or Riku Unira, given how we didn't rename Mini Wanwan into Mini Rolling Wanwan? I've got into a great detail over why the encyclopedia is extremely and fundamentally flawed. -- FanOfYoshi 06:24, 2 March 2019 (EST)

I'm not sure why we would want to go with the untranslated "Riku Unira" when we have a translated "Land Unizo" name (the former will even confuse casual readers with Unira). If anything, I suggest "Urchin (land)". LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)

I said either go with Riku Unizo or Riku Unira. Please note that the internal filename has "Unizo", and given the source priority, this is why i suggest this. We're they properly named in-game? (quote, name mention) -- FanOfYoshi 07:51, 8 March 2019 (EST)

No, but they were properly translated (not localized) by the game developers themselves. Anyway, this has gone on long enough, so I've put it to a proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:59, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Split the ground Urchin

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Split as Urchin (land) 1-0-1-8-0
As discussed, there is a second type of Urchin in Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2, which isn't named in the Prima Guides. One option is its internal name in both games, which is a direct translation of its first Japanese name. The other closest mention is on the trading card, which calls it a red Urchin. A third option is available for Riku Unira, which is a romanization of its more recent Japanese name. A fourth option has been included for "Urchin (land)", which is a compromise to feature an identifier based on the plain English internal name. This proposal will determine which of the four names it will get for the split.

Proposer: LinkTheLefty (talk)
Deadline: March 22, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Split as "Land Unizo"

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) My preferred choice, as the second option gives the impression that it's a color variant when splits on that basis are generally discouraged and the third is untranslated and may give the idea that it's related to Unira.

Split as "Riku Unira"

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) Should be either this, "Riku Unizo", or "Urchin (land)", given that Land Unizo is not this enemy's english name by any definition.

Split as "Urchin (land)"

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) An alternative to the above three.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) My preferred choice. You didn't really get my point. I didn't use the "it is an english name but is made by Japanese people" argument. I said that "Unizo" isn't the english name. Also, for the SMBS items, it worths nothing.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) Since we do have an English name for it, I think this is the logical choice.
4. Toadette the Achiever (talk) That works for me, since English names usually take priority anyways.
5. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
6. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
7. Pseudo-dino (talk) Per all.
8. bwburke94 (talk) Per all.

Comments

Aren't there an option to split it as "Riku Unizo" or "Urchin (land)"? You may have not noticed the mention i gave to these names. -- FanOfYoshi 08:07, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Riku Unizo is the older Japanese name and directly corresponds to Land Unizo (and "land" is, "by any definition", English), and you didn't respond to my "Urchin (land)" suggestion. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:11, 8 March 2019 (EST)

We renamed "Chibi Wanwan" into "Mini Wanwan". I pretty much agree with "Urchin (land)", and we renamed Petari to Petapeta. The crew that made the name DOES matter. Btw you can find my loanword concept loose, idc, and shouldn't we move Pattan to its direct romanization "Patan" given the Petari/Petapeta and the potential Garigari/Gorumondo case, since it's not its english name by any definition either. -- FanOfYoshi 08:17, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Yes, because Mini Wanwan is technically more common. The Petari and Garigari situations are minor in the long run, and are off-topic since they have been/are being dealt with. And you should care that you're applying the wrong definitions of loanword and romanization because it seriously risks spreading misinformation. As for it mattering if the name came from Japanese people or not, good luck convincing anyone that Wing and Lucky Star are actually in another language. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:40, 8 March 2019 (EST)

It means something because you can't have it both ways; either Japanese are capable of forming English words or they aren't (which has more or less been your suggestion). LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:59, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Please take a look at Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins. Also, please note that i told you that there is "Unizo". I don't really get your definition of an "english" name, and also, forgot to say, the TicoComet internal filename, along with "Pattan" and other SMG enemies internal filenames are romanized, and for some reason, they don't have the another language template. IMO, both examples should have been named to the direct romanization (except for the Comet word). -- FanOfYoshi 05:41, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Not sure what those games have to do with anything because the former had a minimal localization altogether and the latter had localization effort only put into its manual. Localization is not the same thing as translation. An English name as used by the wiki is something that is generally considered actual English or used by the official English translators, and if they choose not to localize what they translate like they did with Super Mario Land, that's on them, not us. Yes, we are aware that internal sourcing is somewhat of a grey area, but recent attempts to have a broader discussion about it and put something into policy failed, so the best we can do is determine each case individually. In this situation, we could go with Urchin and have an article identifier, but we also have a conflicting proposal on source priority exceptions, which is why Land Unizo would be the result. And I'll remind you that other examples like Needle Plant are, in no way, shape or form, a "romanization" of the Japanese name - a romanization is not the same thing as Japanese translating the language themselves. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:08, 9 March 2019 (EST)

I said that Needle Plant is merely placeholdery, and is not intended to be the actual name. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat did have internal filenames "englishized", but most of them are too generic. Kiba Pig Poppo wasn't entirely englishized though, and i feel that it is nonsensical by itself. Mini Iga and Bakky are total romanizations just like Karikari and Kamikami. Wait, the source priority proposal? I'd have liked to make a counterproposal, since i'd prefer a guide-by-guide basis. -- FanOfYoshi 08:00, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Except Needle Plant isn't a placeholder since it's still in use (and that's not what you indicated earlier), and I already went over how Mini Iga and Bakky aren't real romanizations. Anyway, this is going nowhere here. If you still have issues about particular cases, I'd suggest taking them to the appropriate talk page. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:21, 9 March 2019 (EST)

I mostly disagree with splitting it as Land Unizo because of the "Unizo" part of the internal filename. Please note what Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) said on the Gorumondo talk page with the invented "Iron Noko" example. It wouldn't be much of an english name with that "Unizo". -- FanOfYoshi 13:41, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Also, while the crew that made internal filenames did not matter for Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, it DID matter for most unnamed Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 enemies. This includes: The "Beamer" enemies, Ball Beamer/Bolt Beam, Jump Beamer and Ring Beamer/Beam. Jump/Sentry Garage/Guarder, Fire Pressure, Mandibug Stack, this Urchin and Pattan. Particularly the last one, as its not the enemy's english name in anyway, shape or form. It is a romanization of the Japanese name. (that could have been changed to the direct romanization if that becomes the consensus, but i don't think so). Yes, i know that it is Hepburn romanization, but that does not make them the enemies's english names. Anyways, a question. When you said that neither guides call it an Urchin, do you mean that it doesn't get a proper mention, or it isn't mentioned at all? -- FanOfYoshi 09:56, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

"TicoComet" is also one of these case. It isn't settled yet, since it's not the character's english name either. I'd rather have chosen "Comet Chikko". I already brought up the "Iron Noko" example. -- FanOfYoshi 05:01, March 17, 2019 (EDT)

If say, a water (or even a fire) variant of the Monty Mole is internally named "WaterChoropu" or "FireChoropu" depending on which variant it is, there are loanwords. But, it has the Japanese name of the Monty Mole, so no, it would not be much of an english name, and Land Unizo/Unizo Land is NOT that Urchin's english name. Do you see where i want to go here? -- FanOfYoshi 13:17, March 18, 2019 (EDT)

You might as well want to say that "Sanbo Flower" is that Needlenose-spitting Egg-Plant's english name. -- FanOfYoshi 11:01, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

" which is a compromise to feature an identifier based on the plain English internal name". That's what i meant on your proposal. -- FanOfYoshi 05:01, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

When i asked you if there was any mention in-game, it was specifically because you brought up the "Urchin (land)" thing above, when i thought about the source priority proposal. -- FanOfYoshi 09:56, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

Rethink relation to Unira?

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Given the outcome of the recent Togezo proposal, I think we should rethink considering Urchins related to the Clu Clu Land Uniras (a variant of them, no less! And it was like this before the proposal that removed "subject origin"). The "names in other languages" section claims that "ra" is a common suffix for monster names. If that's true, then it sharing a name with an enemy from a 1985 NES game could be a coincidence, which I think it most likely is. Why would Super Mario World reference Clu Clu Land of all games? If the Spiny-Togezo connection was a bit of a stretch, then this is Olympic gymnastics. DrippingYellow (talk) 14:37, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Their movement around rocks in SMW is very similar to the Uniras' behavior in CCL, and perhaps more importantly, the first The Legend of Zelda JP manual deliberately referred to one of its bosses (Digdogger) as a giant Unira while referring to another (Manhandla) as a giant Packun Flower (ie Piranha Plant), so if it could reference CCL, SMW definitely could - and given they're by the same dev team, it seems immensely unlikely they forgot it within that few-year period. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:01, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

The movement between Urchins and Unira is hardly what I'd call "similar". Uniras actively chase the player while being constrained to a Pac-Man-style grid, while Urchins in their debut appearance either drifted back and forth between two spots or circled an area. Urchins are also invincible, whereas Uniras are not. The two enemies serve entirely different functions, and have noticeably different appearances, so if this was really intended to be an actual reference, they failed in that the enemies don't appear similar in anything but name. The Zelda enemies are arguably even less similar to their supposed inspirations, but at least we are given explicit confirmation in the manual; there is nothing for Urchin and Unira that I'm aware of.
Also, not even the same dev team. From what I can gather, Clu Clu Land is from R&D1, while the Mario and Zelda games are R&D4. DrippingYellow (talk) 17:43, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

Just want to point out that even if it is the same dev team, it can be different people. Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:22, August 15, 2024 (EDT)

When I said "same dev team," I was referring to Zelda and World making the reference, not CluClu Land itself.... Also, Urchins are not invincible, they can be defeated via Grab Block as the Perfect blah blah Encyclopedia points out. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:55, August 16, 2024 (EDT)

First, I should point out, that an enemy referencing another franchise's enemy is not the same thing as that enemy being directly related to (or being) said other franchise's enemy, especially if it involves yet another enemy as an intermediate stage.
Anyway, I really doubt that Urchin is supposed to be an Unira or Digdogger. For one, it's never explicity stated that it is. We know Digdogger and Manhandla are an Unira and Piranha Plant respectively because it's explicitly stated as such in the Japanese manual for The Legend of Zelda; plus, the fact that Digdogger reacts negatively to sound just like an Unira corroborates to that. Urchins do not have that weakness. And appearance-wise, the only thing Urchin has in common with Unira and Digdogger is that it's spiky. In-game, Urchins don't look like Unira, Boss Unira or Digdogger otherwise, having a different color scheme and different-looking eyes, and this remains inconsistent in artwork form (at least Digdogger still looks like a (stunned) Boss Unira). rend (talk) (edits) 02:53, August 16, 2024 (EDT)