Category talk:Characters from other Nintendo games

Isn't this category exactly the same as 3rd Party Characters?

No. This is for Link, Zelda, and those guys. 3rd party is pacman, solid snake, final fantasy characters in nintendo games.HK

How to tell if a game is 3rd party

3rd Party: any character that creates a link to a different system. (ex. FF=PS2)

non-3rd Party: any character (ex. Link) made by the same company (in this case, Nintendo) that appears in another game starring another series charcter.(ex. Mario)

Max2 (talk)

What about second party? -- Sir Grodus

? Max2 (talk)

Should Pokemon be on this list

Pokemon isn't a game made by Nintendo although it was published by Nintendo it was made by game freak inc. does that still put them on this list Mrblob1012 (talk)

Nintendo owns Pokémon, so they belong. SeanWheeler (talk) 13:30, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

Remove bosses from SMB2

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

canceled by proposer
I don't understand why we include only bosses from Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic. Any enemies including Shy Guy didn't have this category. Why Birdo considered to character from other Nintendo games?

Proposer: Windy (talk)
Deadline: April 30, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Date withdrawn: April 22, 2023, 08:12 GMT

Support

1. Spectrogram (talk) Fair option. SMB2 became a full part of the Mario franchise.
2. SeanWheeler (talk) Super Mario Bros. 2 characters are Mario characters.

#Swallow (talk) Since Doki Doki Panic was the basis of Super Mario Bros. 2 and nearly everything in it became very recurrant throughout the Mario franchise, I wouldn't mind making an exception to it.
#Platform (talk) All the DDP bosses have become fully absorbed into the Mario franchise that they're more associated with Mario than their original game. The intro should be changed to "This category excludes bosses from Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic."
#Yo'ster (talk) Doki Doki Panic has never been re-released due to Nintendo not owning the Fuji TV characters and has, for all intents and purposes, been a Mario game in Japan since Super Mario USA's release in 1992. Platform's crossed out solution below is fine too.

Oppose

1. Wikiboy10 (talk) While these characters have become part of the Mario series, it is a fact that they were introduced in a non-Mario game. Let's not Mariowash here. Also, we should include Shy Guys and other SMB2 enemies in this category.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) This proposal doesn't make any real argument why there should be an exception here, and I don't see a reason to exclude them. The reason Shy Guys and other enemies aren't currently included is because this is specifically a character category, but it could be reworked in the future.
3. Killer Moth (talk) Per Wikiboy and Waluigi Time.
4. Koopa con Carne (talk) I can't argue with the idea that these characters have been effectively assimilated by the Mario franchise--the sheer number of Mario media they appeared in has long driven that point home, to say nothing of the fact that some have been explicitly billed as "Super Mario" characters as recently as 2018--but we can't alter their history. Indeed, they debuted in a non-Mario game. I suppose the category could be retitled as "Characters originating in other Nintendo games" just so it can dispel any shred of ambiguity.
5. Platform (talk) I've changed my mind. Greenhouse should also be added to the category's description due to Stanley. This game is also historically significant that it warrants inclusion. My recommended wording is "This category also includes characters that debuted from the historically significant games of Green House and Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic."
6. Swallow (talk) The statement on the page has now been rewritten and I also now agree with that the opposition has said on the matter. We certainly can't change our fate there.

Comments

@Windy Why didn't you vote on this proposal? Wikiboy10 (talk) 11:58, April 16, 2023 (EDT)

The author does not participate in the proposal. Windy (talk) 08:29, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Yes they do. The proposer always votes on the support option upon the proposal being created. Nightwicked Bowser 08:30, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Technically, the proposer can vote on any option they wish or choose not to vote at all. There's nothing stopping a proposer from participating in their own proposal, they're generally expected to support their own proposal and to respond to criticism if necessary. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:50, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

The category page lays out: "Nintendo characters who are not part of the Mario franchise but have appeared in it or in related crossovers."; we probably need to rewrite this if this proposal fails. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 18:50, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Done. I'm hazy on whether "originate in" is grammatically correct though, so I request some intervention in that regard. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 18:58, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Seems fine. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 18:58, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Shouldn't we wait for the deadline to see if the proposal passes or fails before messing with the description of the category? So far, we have a tie. And the proposer didn't even vote! SeanWheeler (talk) 19:31, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

It doesn't really matter, regardless of the proposal outcome the new wording is accurate and clearer, and nothing that's been modified is in the scope of this proposal anyway. ("not part of the Mario franchise but have appeared in it" reads like a contradiction) -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:53, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

I'm going to rescind my vote on this and just stay neutral. I wouldn't mind removing them as they're undoubtedly Mario characters now, but it'd probably be better to just edit the current category to be more specific/consistent like other editors have suggested. --Yo'ster (talk) 07:49, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

Include all characters that originated from Doki Doki Panic

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

do not include 4-5
The last proposal was canceled because they changed their minds. But this time I'll try my proposal in a different way. How do you think about including all the characters that originated from Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic? Besides Birdo and other bosses from Super Mario Bros. 2, we also include Shy Guy and any other enemies.

Proposer: Windy (talk)
Deadline: February 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Waluigi Time (talk) We already have the bosses in this category, so might as well. Yes, several of them have become Mario staples, but the fact is that they were originally created for a completely unrelated Nintendo game. That's not something that can be changed, no matter how many Mario games they appear in. Let's not be purposefully inaccurate here just because it feels weird.
2. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) I think this makes sense because the enemies made their first appearance in that game.
3. Power Flotzo (talk) Per WT.
4. DrippingYellow (talk) All these enemies are in the Mario franchise, but from Doki Doki Panic. I feel like this is pretty open-and-shut to me. Just to be clear, I agree with the points about whether species from other games should be given their own category separate from the characters, but I don't think that's completely relevant to this proposal (should be its own proposal really), so it has no bearing on my vote.

Oppose

1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Their origin as Doki Doki Panic characters have long since become historical. They're Super Mario characters and enemies, full stop.
2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per Camwoodstock. Per my comments below.
3. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per all
4. ReeceeYT (talk) Per all
5. OmegaRuby (talk) Per Mario RPG.

Camwoodstock (talk) This category already needs some help considering how hopelessly clogged it is with Smash redirects (and List of Smash Taunt characters, which is just there directly), and being real here, putting a bunch of Doki Doki Panic characters that have since been grandfathered into the Mario franchise with absolutely zero questions would probably only serve to hurt this category even more. We're already wondering about how practical this category even is with all the Smash redirects--whether these get added or not, we're still even wondering if this category is worth keeping in this state...

Comments

The scope of this proposal is vague. Are we just voting on whether or not to include Doki Doki Panic's enemies, or would this proposal failing lead to the bosses being removed as well? If it's just the former, then wouldn't it be a better idea to either broaden this category to include species or create a "Category:Species from other Nintendo games"? SolemnStormcloud (talk) 18:36, February 9, 2024 (EST)

While making Category:Super Mario Bros. 2 bosses a subcategory of this wouldn't work because of Clawgrip, couldn't we just make Category:Super Mario Bros. 2 enemies a subcategory instead? (Though, that category has Category:Super Mario Bros. 2 bosses as a subcategory, so...) SolemnStormcloud (talk) 12:49, February 10, 2024 (EST)

I do want to point out to the opposition that Stanley is included in this category as well due to his role in Donkey Kong 3 being predated by a near-identical role in the generic Game & Watch game Greenhouse. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:29, February 14, 2024 (EST)

...we genuinely cannot tell if this is meant to be a point for or against the existence of this category, though that might be because we were considering asking what articles would even be left in this article without the copious Smash redirects, and our current mental list is "The SMB2 characters, and Stanley the Bugman." ~Camwoodstock (talk) 21:51, February 14, 2024 (EST)

On the above comment--we went ahead and did the tallying ourselves, truth be told we were very bored and needed to kill time while waiting for something, and we figured this was the best way to do it--and this is what the category would look like if we peeled away all the Smash redirects:

• The SMB2 bosses (minus Clawgrip)
• Various SMB2 characters, if this passes
• Balloon Fighter: Because of a few WarioWare appearances.
• Betty: Because of WW:MMG.
• Bubbles (Clu Clu Land): Because of DK:KOS
• Cicada: Because of more modern WarioWare games.
• Fox: Because of various magazine comics.
• Inkling: Because of MK8D.
• Kirby: Because of an old edutainment film, and plenty of comics.
• Link: Because of an old edutainment game, plenty of comics, and some cameos in games like SMRPG.
• Mad Scienstein: Because of a few Wario Land appearances.
• Mii: Regularly playable in various Mario games.
• Mr. Game & Watch: Because of G&WG4.
• Mr. Resetti: Because of... Being a stage hazard in a track in MK8, we think? This article needs some work, they extremely buried the lede here.
• Octopus (character): Because of WW:DIY.
• R.O.B.: Because of a few WarioWare appearances.
• Stanley: Already discussed, he became the star of DK3 and adjacent games.
• Starfy: Because of SPP and a crossover with Wario in one of his own games. Technically, this is a disambiguation page!
• Villager: Because of MK8 and a few WarioWare appearances. We forgot these guys were in that game.
• Whispy Woods: Because of a magazine comic.

ADDENDUMS FROM THE REPLIES BELOW: Isabelle, Snowboy, Pikmin, Deku Baba and Keese should also probably be here--a few of those aren't already in here, but it's probably worth adding them.

...'Course, had we looked, we'd have realized this is roughly the same links on the Crossover characters navigation template, plus a Starfy. Whoops! Truth be told, while we still worry a little bit about including whole species in here--this was something that only just crossed our minds, mind you, so if you wish to oppose for that, do as you must--we think if the category was maybe more like what we listed above (e.g. not cluttered to heck and back with Smash redirects), we could understand a move like this.

We're revoking our vote, but we're definitely not supporting due to the mentioned concerns about including entire species--consider this changing to an "abstain" if you will. Ultimately, our current (major) gripes are not with what we're voting to include, but with what we're already including, so it feels a little unfair to oppose on that alone. Perhaps that's something for a future proposal...? ~Camwoodstock (talk) 23:26, February 14, 2024 (EST)

Snowboy as well, since that's inexplicably not merged to snowman. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:34, February 14, 2024 (EST)

...how did we miss the one that's been giving us pain as we've been playing new leaf Shoot, right, Snowboy would be included in this too. For what it's worth, Snowboy is technically distinct from the various Mario series Snowmen, in the sense that he's his own character in the source material. While he is functionally identical to the stock Mario snowmen, well, so is Mr. Resetti being identical to the Monty Mole, and that is a merge nobody would support. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 23:41, February 14, 2024 (EST)

My saying that should be merged has more to do with most other languages just calling them snowmen anyway, especially since it's a generic subject with no "main" design in the Mario-related games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:02, February 15, 2024 (EST)

Ahem (and also Isabelle would be in the category too). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:06, February 15, 2024 (EST)

...Okay, how did we miss Isabelle. We don't actually know if that's just an us thing, or if maybe trying to skim a category completely inundated with Smash redirects was a fool's errand. Keese isn't in here, so we understand that one. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 10:20, February 15, 2024 (EST)

Aside from the Doki Doki Panic enemies and maybe the Subcons if this proposal passes, the only other Nintendo crossover species with their own pages — to the best of my knowledge — are the Deku Baba, Keese, and Pikmin. (Unless you want to include The Legend of Zelda enemies based on Super Mario ones like Mega Thwomp, but that's not quite the same situation as a crossover or guest appearance.) SolemnStormcloud (talk) 09:48, February 15, 2024 (EST)

Well, the category title just says "from other Nintendo games" without specifying crossovers, and Starfy gets to be in the category despite never having a major crossover appearance (Super Princess Peach doesn't count because Starfish is its own page), so I don't think the Zelda enemies are out of the question. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:06, February 15, 2024 (EST)

Starfy hasn't had a major crossover appearance in the Mario games... But Wario sure had a major crossover appearance with him. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 10:20, February 15, 2024 (EST)

Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at with why the Mario-based enemies we cover that only appeared in Zelda games could count for this category. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:25, February 15, 2024 (EST)

Generally it doesn't seem to be completely consistent right now whether species count for this category (e.g. Snowboy's here, Keese isn't), which is the main reason I'm not supporting this proposal, not because of the origin of the Doki Doki Panic characters (if we've already decided to put the bosses in this category then it only makes sense to consider these the same). If this proposal passes then it'll make sense to add all of the relevant species, and if it fails then we could take out the few already here (possibly even make "Species from other Nintendo games" its own category since there seem to be more than I initially thought). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:33, February 15, 2024 (EST)

I guess I'll finally throw my two cents into this: I always found it a bit odd that (most of) the SMB2 bosses are included here. I get it, they originated from Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic, so they're technically from a non-Mario game, but at the same time, that's also the only major non-Mario appearance they have. Their later appearances are in Super Mario Bros. 2 and remakes, other Mario games (more major for some than others), and whenever they do reappear outside of a Mario game, the non-Mario game makes sure that their appearance is Mario-adjacent. In other words, they have been integrated into the Super Mario franchise since their debut in Super Mario Bros. 2, starting with Super Mario World, while the Yume Kōjō '87 event that Doki Doki Panic was made for is not really a thing anymore. Birdo for instance sticks out like a sore thumb because she makes constant appearances in the Mario spinoff games even to this day.
But what makes their inclusion even weirder for me is the exclusion of the various enemies that also debuted in Doki Doki Panic. Like, why is Birdo here when Shy Guy is not, even though Shy Guy also makes constant appearances in the Mario franchise to this day? Logically, because these are species, not characters, hence the exclusion of Deku Baba, but then why isn't there a category for this, and why does this category include the redirect Metroid (species) then? And aren't Inklings and Snowboys technically a species too?
If you ask me, either include all the SMB2 characters (sans Clawgrip), or don't include 'em at all. If you decide to include some characters because of a technicality, then you can't exclude the others just because they're species instead of characters, when the category itself already includes species (which, btw, Category:Third-party characters also does: hello, Moogle and Platypunk). It only makes the whole decision look awkward. rend (talk) (edits) 14:48, February 18, 2024 (EST)

I have to agree with everything you said. While we're on the subject of distinction between species and character, the Behemoth and Behemoth King are also only represented by a single individual in their sole Super Mario-related appearance, Mario Sports Mix — yet we're currently treating them as species rather than characters unlike the playable Square Enix species representatives. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 15:30, February 19, 2024 (EST)

On the note of non-Mario characters with articles here based on their appearances in Mario games... why doesn't Samus have an article? She's made an ingame appearance in Super Mario RPG and a multitude of at least notable cameos to deserve one. --OmegaRuby (talk) 09:28, February 29, 2024 (EST)

I think her role in SMRPG was considered too minor by the user that proposed the original fighter cuts. You could always make a proposal to reinstate her article though, that happened to Mr. Game & Watch. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 10:37, February 29, 2024 (EST)

I think my perspective on what "counts" as part of the Super Mario franchise is a little more fluid than other people. To me, through the adoption of Super Mario Bros. 2 into the mainline games, its influence, introduction of characters, and comparable mechanics to its sister platformers, Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic is a game in the Super Mario franchise, so in my broad understanding, it would not be accurate to suggest the characters debuted in a game outside of it. If Doki Doki Panic is not part of the Super Mario franchise, then why do we support an article for it on the Super Mario Wiki? - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:35, February 29, 2024 (EST)

Historical significance. Note that we don't have specific articles for Imajin and co. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:13, February 29, 2024 (EST)

Since the one-vote difference is almost a tie, it would be better to extend it for another week. Windy (talk) 06:25, March 3, 2024 (EST)