MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/43: Difference between revisions
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:Actually, "it's not gonna pass anyway" isn't a valid reason to have a proposal deleted. People try to ragequit proposals periodically, so I'd rather not make any exceptions by granting such a request, even in this case, where the proposal's unnecessary to begin with. But if you'd rather it get yanked now so that you can start on removing the quotes before tomorrow, having learned from the comments that it's already allowed, just say so. - {{User|Walkazo}} 10:10, 8 September 2015 (EDT) | :Actually, "it's not gonna pass anyway" isn't a valid reason to have a proposal deleted. People try to ragequit proposals periodically, so I'd rather not make any exceptions by granting such a request, even in this case, where the proposal's unnecessary to begin with. But if you'd rather it get yanked now so that you can start on removing the quotes before tomorrow, having learned from the comments that it's already allowed, just say so. - {{User|Walkazo}} 10:10, 8 September 2015 (EDT) | ||
::Sold! I am starting school on Thursday so I'd like to delete as many meaningless quotes as possible before then. Thx [[File:SM64 Mario Sidekick.png|x35px]] [[User:ZonkMario64|<span style="color:green;"> Don't Get Zonked!</span>]] [[File:Question Block 3D.png|x35px]] ([[User talk:ZonkMario64|blabbing]] · [[Special:Contributions/ZonkMario64|what i do]]) 10:31, 8 September 2015 (EDT) | ::Sold! I am starting school on Thursday so I'd like to delete as many meaningless quotes as possible before then. Thx [[File:SM64 Mario Sidekick.png|x35px]] [[User:ZonkMario64|<span style="color:green;"> Don't Get Zonked!</span>]] [[File:Question Block 3D.png|x35px]] ([[User talk:ZonkMario64|blabbing]] · [[Special:Contributions/ZonkMario64|what i do]]) 10:31, 8 September 2015 (EDT) | ||
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===Restrict (if not remove) ImageMaps=== | |||
<span style="color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">RESTRICT USAGE AND REWRITE THE POLICY PAGE 8-1</span> | |||
*Draft: [[User:Bazooka Mario/sandbox# 3]] (check [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:Bazooka_Mario/sandbox&oldid=1885921 this revision] for any future reference if you ever need it). | |||
ImageMap templates are images you find on articles such as in [[World 1 (New Super Mario Bros.)]] that are filled with links, where you click on a specific part of the image to go to a particular article. They're intended to help visual readers navigate the wiki and relevant games more easily, but I find their usage and implementation less than ideal. They qualify as [[wikipedia:Mystery meat navigation|mystery meat navigation]], flashy, but user-hostile forms of linking. While the imagemaps in MarioWiki aren't as cryptic as the moon image example in the Wikipedia page, their designs are still confusing for the average reader for several reasons: they are awkwardly placed in articles and look identical to thumbnail images and their low-resolution quality (needed to fit inside the page) and lack of labels or clear borders make distinguishing between places difficult. As Wikipedia put it, "''it may not be readily apparent that the image is a clickable map instead of a simple picture''". They are even more difficult to use for mobile users since image maps heavily rely on hovering for labeling locations, which mobile users cannot do. | |||
The World 1 example I listed is, unfortunately, typical of most imagemap templates: gaudy, gimmicky, and ultimately useless. | |||
This proposal aims to address the following problems of each individual imagemaps. Deletion is usually preferred, but if you disagree for a particular ImageMap and have reasons to keep them, please state so. | |||
'''It is also imperative to see comments below as well before you vote since these are not set in stone, and they can be changed even after the proposal has passed.''' | |||
*{{tem|LM Mansion Map}} (this one is especially confusing. Extremely user-hostile for those who are not familiar with Luigi's Mansion, but probably still confusing for those who are. It would work better in an article that lists all locations in Luigi's Mansion, but such article apparently doesn't exist. This, at best, should stay in the drawing board.) | |||
*{{tem|LM Lab Map}} (see LM Mansion Map. While LM Mansion Map might be a navigational aid for those in the middle of a game (although the Mansion isn't exactly a maze either), this one makes even less sense since the Lab is a small place) | |||
*{{tem|PDSMBE-map}} (this one is already covered by navigational template. Implementing this into the navigational template would just take up space) | |||
*{{tem|NSMB-W1map}} (it might have use, but it's very difficult to implement this template in any other spot in the article, and it looks bad the way it is) | |||
*{{tem|NSMB-W3map}} (see NSMB-W1map. That ImageTemplates are far from complete is troublesome (for the merits of Image Maps, which are already dubious anyway) but it might be good to restrict usage now before it gets out of hand) | |||
*{{tem|NSMB-W5map}} (see NSMB-W3map) | |||
*{{tem|NSMB2map}} (see PDSMBE-map) | |||
*{{tem|NSMBmap}} (see PDSMBE-map) | |||
*{{tem|NSMBUmap}} (this one is even more confusing, and it has to be ultra-low res for it to look barely presentable, which makes distinguishing between worlds very difficult; very user-hostile image-map that should be removed) | |||
*{{tem|PDSMBE-W1map}} (already covered in its [[World 1 (Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition)|respective article]]. Moreover, its location inside the level infobox makes it impossible to discern it from a normal image without hovering over its specific link points) | |||
*{{tem|M&L:BIS Bowser Map}} (not great, especially for those who haven't played the game. It might work for [[Bowser's body]], but ideally, it should have labels, but the low-res nature thanks for AlphaDream makes it not worth it. It's still difficult pinpointing each location; case point, it took me, who hasn't played the game (and for those who are in the midst of playing the game, the game already provides labels to each location, if I'm correct) longer than it should to locate Trash Pit. Otherwise, it should be removed from area-specific articles due to its bad placements in those articles.) | |||
*{{tem|M&L:BIS Overworld Map}} (at best, it should stick to only to the game article, [[Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story]]. Even then, it looks inconspicuous and not very useful, and the in-game map probably already has those labels.) | |||
*{{tem|M&L:DT Overworld Map}} (this one is bad. The low resolution makes it difficult to distinguish between each area, so I think we should just nix this one.) | |||
*{{tem|M&L:PIT Overworld Map}} (it's not horrible, but I question its usefulness the same way I question M&L BIS Overworld Map's utility. I'm aware that in-game, the map itself already provides pointers to where you are, making it even more useless for those in the midst of playing the game.) | |||
*{{tem|M&L:SS Overworld Map}} (see M&L:PIT Overworld Map. Its in-game map also has labels and makes this one useless when it comes to wiki coverage. This one is particularly difficult to use due to its low-res nature and that certain major areas including [[Beanbean Castle Town]] are difficult to locate. Also, [[Beanbean Outskirts]] is located in a specific spot when it should surround Beanbean Castle, but I suppose that's impossible with this system. So, remove it.) | |||
*{{tem|PM Map}} (Not good. Its low-res nature makes it difficult to use, as with most Image Map templates. It would work if it were bigger and had labels. Its placement in articles is just as miserable as in most Image Map templates. | |||
*{{tem|PMTTYDmap}} (again, it's very difficult to distinguish between places without squinting) | |||
*{{tem|SMRPGmap}} It would probably work for general overhead articles, but only if it actually looks different from other images. It's still difficult to use since some places are bordering microscopic. | |||
*{{tem|SMW2YI Map}} Utterly pointless (not to mention gaudy in ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'', and when you have screenshots that have this stuff in it, like in [[World 6 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island)]], it's also confusing. | |||
*{{tem|SMWmap}} It might work, but its current implementation is difficult to use and requires a microscope. It still needs to be confined to overview articles rather than area-specific articles. | |||
*{{tem|SMWmap2}} See SMWmap; this one looks identical. | |||
*{{tem|SPPMap}} It might work, but confine it to general overview articles ([[Vibe Island]] in this case) rather than slapping it everywhere. It still needs to be placed in a better spot, but the low-res nature of it makes it difficult for me to think of a method where it doesn't resemble a plain image. | |||
*{{tem|WL4 Golden Pyramid Map}} Pointless. Names are a good indicator of each place. Actually, this applies to most areas in most games. | |||
*{{tem|YIDS Map}} Utterly pointless. | |||
*{{tem|YISMA3 Map}} Utterly pointless. | |||
Common issues: | |||
*Difficult-to-distinguish locations | |||
*Bad placement, especially within more area-specific articles (placement in overview articles are not great either). | |||
*Redundant. | |||
*Aside from a tiny i icon, looks identical to normal images. | |||
*Due to the over reliance on hover-text, mobile users cannot benefit from Image Maps. | |||
This is a writing guidelines proposal because there is a [[MarioWiki:Image Maps|policy page]] dedicated to this under the [[:Category:Writing Guidelines|writing guidelines category]]. Again, some ImageMaps may be worthy of keeping (I have doubts though), but if so, then it must caution users when making ImageMaps and they need to be implemented in a manner that doesn't highly resemble normal images, perhaps a special border around the image with the label "image map", no thumbnail framing, and located in a more conspicuous spot in the article. Either way, ''all'' Image Maps have their issues and I can't say I like they way they're implemented here. I prefer if they were deleted and at least placed back in the drawing board so it doesn't look at bad as it is now, but all-out-deletion may be too much, so I'm open for suggestions and objections. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bazooka Mario}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': September 18, 2015, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} All Image Maps, in my opinion, are highly flawed design aspects in our wiki. I used to think they are useful for the visual learners (including me), but they have only disappointed me so far for these above reasons. I think deletion or at least a highly confined usage will work for them. This is "Writing Guidelines" because it's a major change in one of our policies if it passes. | |||
#{{User|3D Player 2010}} Per Bazooka Mario. | |||
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per Mario. | |||
#{{User|Roy Koopa}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Pyro Guy}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|PowerKamek}} Per proposal | |||
#{{User|Andymii}} I've changed my mind. Through the comments, Bazooka Mario has made it very clear what the goal of this proposal is. I still think this proposal isn't perfect, but I think we've made some decent progress that warrants my vote. | |||
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Image Maps are good for orientation in the directory articles (game and overall world/place pages), but not as alternative navigation templates on the specific location/level pages. See my comments about which ones should be scrapped or saved, but overall, a proposal to rehabilitate their use and fix the policy page is one I can get behind, and the draft is well enough along at this point for me to formally support. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
:<s>#{{User|Andymii}} Okay, hear me out. I agree with what's been said, and I agree that image maps are a mess. However, I don't think removing some without further thought is a good idea. This is the type of thing that can be changed, improved, and fixed. I'm not the best at coding, but I'm sure there's a way to make image maps appealing to everyone. If we try improving image maps and it doesn't work, ah well, maybe then we can think of removing them. But for now, give it a chance. After all, it's not the ''idea'' that is flawed; it's the ''presentation''. Also, see my comments below. They are arguebly just as important.</s> | |||
#{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per all, Andymii in particular. | |||
====Comments==== | |||
Not that I disagree with what's being proposed, but if you're going to make a writing guidelines proposal, [[MarioWiki:Writing_Guidelines#How_do_you_create.2Falter_a_writing_guideline.3F|don't you need to make a draft]]? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} | |||
:Well, I'm not sure what the draft might look like as of yet, but the policy page implies that the process of writing a draft can be done during proposal process (that "writing guideline proposals are given two weeks as opposed to one so as to allow sufficient time to perfect the document.") Also, my proposal aims to either nix or highly restrict their usage, something I don't feel is worth potentially splitting the vote (I can go with either one), so I'm not 100% sure what's supposed to be in the draft yet, or if there is a call for a draft. It was difficult for me to determine if this proposal is about general change, removal, or a writing guideline, but I stuck with writing guideline since it involves potentially (emphasis on potentially) changing a MarioWiki policy or making it moot. In other words, I'm highly uncertain. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:48, 4 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::Okay, I got the draft down. That might be a start. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 19:32, 4 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
These are kind of useful. What will we do if they get removed or restricted? | |||
[[File:PowerKamekSignature.png|150px|link=User:PowerKamek]] | |||
([[User talk:PowerKamek|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/PowerKamek|contribs]]) | |||
<span style="color:red;font-family:monospace">Kamek Power!</span> 00:23, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:They are not useful as I explained above, and for these reasons, they are a user-hostile design that shouldn't be in this wiki in their current state. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:35, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
Andymii: This proposal is not wholly about removing Image Maps, it's simply restricting their usage at best if in case there are reasons to keep one or two. As I said, "''I prefer if they were deleted and at least placed back in the drawing board so it doesn't look at bad as it is now, but all-out-deletion may be too much, so I'm open for suggestions and objections.''" I'm saying that even at best, we should send Image Maps back to the drawing board to allow them to get improved so we can readd them when needed. Image Maps as they are are abused and look terrible in most articles they are in, mostly scrunched below the infobox, hidden at the bottom of the article, or being redundantly placed directly next to the list of levels. They're the gaudiest part of our wiki and thus, they don't improve our credibility. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:35, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:And even if Image Maps are highly flawed in design, our Writing Guidelines for Image Maps set them up to be low-res and inconspicuous and I already pointed out those problems in my draft. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:36, 5 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
Good points, but I don't think we really know what we will do next. You've listes some image maps with comments, but most of them are just "this is useless" (okay, more detailed than ''that'', but, ya know.) I'm always open for change, but I don't think this has been completely thought through. Not that I'm saying all our changes should be black and white, but I'm genuinelly unsure here what's going to happen next. --[[User:Andymii|Andymii]] ([[User talk:Andymii|talk]]) 00:13, 6 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:I think the likeliest change would be keeping ImageMaps within generic location articles (like Bowser's Body, BeanBean Kingdom) while removing Image Maps from level/world articles. Remember, they can always be reimplemented, but I just don't like their current state right now. I'm emphasizing on "if not remove" part of the proposal title. See, that's what a draft is for, and that's why "Writing Guidelines" go for two weeks, for me to think and allow people to point out suggestions and other comments. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 01:15, 6 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::Oh, I'm sorry. I had a misunderstanding. You're thinking of deleting the maps from level/world articles and keeping them on generic location articles. I actually think that's a good idea. I wish I supported. | |||
[[File:PowerKamekSignature.png|150px|link=User:PowerKamek]] | |||
([[User talk:PowerKamek|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/PowerKamek|contribs]]) | |||
<span style="color:red;font-family:monospace">Kamek Power!</span> 10:08, 6 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::You ''can'' remove your opposition vote and support the proposal instead, you know. - {{User|Walkazo}} 12:07, 6 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
So I finally got enough time to look at this proposal properly (except for the writing guideline draft: I'll try to get to that tonight or tomorrow) and go through the templates one-by-one, and here's my thoughts, grouped by map type / verdict for clarity: | |||
*{{tem|LM Mansion Map}} - '''Keep''': it'd be good for [[Luigi's Mansion (place)]] and ''[[Luigi's Mansion]]''. But I'd suggest redesigning it to that all 5 levels are vertically arranged (rather than two columns), with a bit of blank space between each as buffers so that it's clearer that they're different floors. | |||
*{{tem|LM Lab Map}}, {{tem|WL4 Golden Pyramid Map}} - '''Scrap''': too small to be worth-while. | |||
*{{tem|PDSMBE-map}}}}, {{tem|NSMB2map}}, {{tem|NSMBmap}}, {{tem|SMW2YI Map}}, {{tem|YIDS Map}}, {{tem|YISMA3 Map}} - '''Scrap''': the labels are in the images already; just have the regular images on the pages rather than all the trouble of a template. | |||
*{{tem|NSMB-W1map}}, {{tem|NSMB-W3map}}, {{tem|PDSMBE-W1map}} - '''Keep''': since there's branching pathways it's not ''completely'' intuitive what the numbers always are, and provided all the worlds get them, they could be used in both those articles in the infoboxes (''P&D'' is fine but the ''NSMB'' infobox needs to be wider to be legible) and the game pages (i.e. stacked in the "Worlds" sections next to the descriptions, rather than just single world examples). | |||
*{{tem|NSMBUmap}}, {{tem|M&L:BIS Overworld Map}}, {{tem|M&L:DT Overworld Map}}, {{tem|M&L:PIT Overworld Map}}, {{tem|M&L:SS Overworld Map}}, {{tem|PM Map}}, {{tem|PMTTYDmap}}, {{tem|SMRPGmap}}, {{tem|SMWmap}}, {{tem|SPPMap}} - '''Keep''': not all the area names are intuitive, and the maps will fit on the game and location pages well enough (in place of mere images, and at large-enough sizes, not scaled down). The only issue is that larger areas should have more than one tiny clickable area (e.g. add multiple link sites for Beanbean Outskirts, and all the ''NSMBU'' areas, etc.). | |||
*{{tem|M&L:BIS Bowser Map}} - '''Keep''': it's good for [[Bowser's body]] and the ''M&L3'' game article since then you can match up the locations to the nodes (otherwise long windy directions are needed since it's not intuitive at all a lot of the time; that'd be fine for individual location articles, but it'd be too much all in one place). | |||
*{{tem|SMWmap2}} - '''Scrap''': duplicate of {{tem|SMWmap}} | |||
'''Overall thoughts''': The overworld maps are good for game and place articles ([[Beanbean Kingdom]], etc.), and the world-specific maps are good for the world articles and the game articles, as long as all the worlds have them. When a template is used on an article, it should be used in place of a mere image of the map; this will often mean putting the template in the infobox, which should be fine as long as the infoboxes aren't obscenely wide (but most templates are only about 400 px or less wide, which would be fine for an infobox, and should be clear enough to be readable and useable). If the names of the places are right there in the level/world select screens, no template's necessary to tell readers what place is what. - {{User|Walkazo}} 16:45, 7 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:I'll get around to some revisions, but do you think how Image Maps are placed are a problem? That ImageMaps aren't immediately discernible from simple images is an issue. I think the infobox might need some revision to let readers better know that these are Image Maps. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:19, 7 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::Just include a "click the level icons/areas/etc. to go to the relevant articles" note as a caption (no <nowiki><br></nowiki> following the template) for the images in infoboxes, and when images aren't in infoboxes, like in game pages, just mention it in the text or the thumbnail notes (depending on whether it's formatted as a thumbnail or not - anything that goes in infoboxes shouldn't be). - {{User|Walkazo}} 18:55, 7 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
Wow, I didn't realize how terrible [[MarioWiki:Image Maps]] is... Anyway, I looked over the draft, but there's so many problems with the source material, I gave up on trying to succinctly comment and just [[User:Walkazo/Essays#MarioWiki:Image_Maps|did a whole new draft for the policy parts]], based on some of your comments on your draft page, and also things that I said here, and extra bits that occurred to me as I was working. Let me know what you think. - {{User|Walkazo}} 21:55, 8 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:Yeah, I was wondering why it seems so... amateur to me, nothing against Megadardery (he's not a native speaker if I recall correctly). Yeah, my draft probably isn't the best, so I just made comments here and there. Well, is it fine if I incorporate the draft soon? I still have yet to look over it, but at a glance, it seems fine... {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:07, 10 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::Yep, if you wanna use my draft, feel free to copypasta it (and then make any fixes or further changes if you see fit, but for clarity, I'd use separate edits than the initial moving of the content). If this passes, I can update the protected policy page for you and ensure the appropriate credit is given to both of us in the summary. - {{User|Walkazo}} 18:39, 10 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::Okay, I've done it, and I've included some (not much!) commentary on some points. It's mostly for clarification or other questions. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:53, 12 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::Cool. I [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User%3AWalkazo%2FEssays&diff=1886936&oldid=1885458 updated my page to better explain the default link stuff]), and also made the "no fan images" part of the main point rather than a subpoint unto itself (but I think it should still be explicitly said to make absolutely sure people get the point). As for the size/clarity one, the subpoint gives examples already, so more aren't necessary. EDIT: I also made a few grammar tweaks on top of your changes, [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User%3AWalkazo%2FEssays&diff=1886945&oldid=1886941 shown here]. - {{User|Walkazo}} 17:06, 12 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::That's what I thought the extra bullet point was meant to hammer in readers, but I think how you merged it is a better idea. One more statement that isn't made very clear to me is the one that starts with "Locations that are widespread in the map[...]". I'm not sure why I haven't commented on this earlier, but later reading it, I kind of go "huh?". {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 17:43, 12 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::::::Like how in {{tem|NSMBUmap}}, all the areas are pretty large, yet once the text disappears after you hover-over part of the area, it doesn't appear again as you waver the mouse around the rest of the large area - so I feel like in these cases, it'd be good to break the areas into smaller chunks so the text can come up more than once and show it's all the same place. Plus, as been mentioned before, places like the Beanbean Outskirts are all around the castle, but only have a link underneath in {{tem|M&L:SS Overworld Map}}, so multiple links would be good for those as well. - {{User|Walkazo}} 18:05, 12 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Beanbean Outskirts is a good example to provide for this then. I couldn't find the link for it myself, so I speak from personal experience. Thanks for the clarification! {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:26, 12 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
Okay, so I went ahead and [[User:Walkazo/Essays#Creating_the_Image_Map|rewrote the bottom half]] of MarioWiki:Image Maps too - to the best of my abilities, anyway, but I'm pretty sure all the coding stuff is right. - {{User|Walkazo}} 20:51, 15 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
::sigh, all my hard "bad" work. Actually, it was a terrible thing I did with the [[MarioWiki:Image Maps]]. So yea, the draft Walkazo came up with is 100 times better :) Anyway, regarding the actual proposal, I don't agree with removing all the imagemaps as Bazooka proposed, I prefer to go with Walkazo's suggestion, I wasn't very keen on the NSMB and YIDS style map, but since it was made by one of the admins (or a formal admin), I didn't give it much of a thought, I felt it provided a faster way to move if you know ''which'' page you are going to go to, saving you the trouble of writing the link in the search bar or something. But now that I think about it, the images looks ugly the way they are. Anyway, regarding the bigger maps, especially Luigi's Mansion. Not <s>only</s> because that I made them <s>(and I make perfect ImageMap templates, mind you :P)</s>. But because they actually help to navigate faster between rooms, and show users a very good layout of the mansion, better than any lengthy description. I could manually add text to the rooms to make them easier to see (because the game doesn't nativally show names, or at least the name of the rooms you are not in). But it's a gray area editing screenshot, so avoiding it is better. Also, hovering over any part of the mapimage will show the link location in almost all modern browsers in the lower left corner of the screen. If not, waiting like 1 second will show you the target name under the cursor. So whatever the imagemap is, it's not worthless. But if it causes troubles or ugliness, then off with it. If the names of the location is the thing that annoys you, I think going over all the games and getting screenshots of the maps with the labels shouldn't be very impossible.--{{User:Megadardery/sig}} 07:52, 18 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
:::Don't be too hard on yourself. I thought about you when I made this proposal and I was pretty guilty, but in the same time, their design bothers me. As stated in the proposal title, the "if not" part is only an option if people really do think they should be removed, but my main point is to amend them, and if they cannot be amended, then they should be removed. I'm aware that you can hover over the area to get their names, but it's fairly time-consuming, and mobile users can't do this. I do think labels might work (and it can; ''Superstar Saga'' has ingame labels that we can possible screencap off and upload it on this wiki). The problem with my proposals is that my ideas and thoughts tend to be half-baked, and I'm grateful that we're allocated two weeks to sort out those kinds of things. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:07, 18 September 2015 (EDT) | |||
---- | ---- |
Revision as of 10:06, September 19, 2015
Change the way rule number 9 of the proposal system worksDELETED BY PROPOSER So, another proposal to remove this rule was made that was just now vetoed by an administrator. The idea in this proposal is not to remove the rule but instead change the way it works to make it more fair and less objectionable. So as of now, this rule is in effect:
I think that the rule could use a few changes that could keep much of its original intent intact while making it more accurate towards what the majority of users want. So I propose we replace that rule with this new rule:
I think the changed rule would be better than both the original rule and just flat out deleting the rule for the following reasons:
Proposer: Kart Player 2011 (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsWait, in proposals with three choices or more, if their deadlines are extended, do you propose removing the option with the least amount of votes? That sounds so convoluted. Even the wording in that is hard to read. The bolded part is one sentence! Anyhow, if there are two change options clashing and rivaling each other in terms of votes, proceeding with one change or the other will displease a sizeable group and that's not democratic. Having the proposal fail after breaking through several extended deadlines definitely means "no consensus has been reached, so no changes will be made". It's a failsafe measure at this point, and it gives the opportunity for further discussion and refining the proposal further. Not to mention, it wears on people's patience to see a proposal get extended, like, three times, so casting it off is good, elaborated previously. In super drawn-out proposals, it's safer to kill them eventually than to take questionable and controversial action even if the outcome is dead tied. It's the reason FAs have a time limit, too. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 14:17, 21 June 2015 (EDT) @Ghost Jam: I tried my best to remove the objectionable pieces of the other proposal that caused it to be vetoed and take into consideration things said by Walkazo in my discussion with her in the other proposal to make it not fall into any objections that she made there. @Bazooka Mario, I specifically said in the proposal that the do nothing option would stay to the final two no matter what and before then, only options suggesting change could be removed so if there is a case of two change options clashing and rivaling each other in terms of votes, and people voting for one of the changes would rather have nothing done, they will always have the chance to just move their votes towards doing nothing. - Kart Player 2011 (talk) @Walkazo, just veto it now then in this case to get it over with. I tried my best to fix the problems that got the other proposal vetoed but I guess in this case, I didn't do enough so I guess you should just veto this proposal now. I'll talk about it more with you in user talk page if I feel the need to. I'm sorry for my mistake. - Kart Player 2011 (talk)
Lessen Crossover CoverageDELETED BY PROPOSER According to the current Coverage rule, crossover games like Super Smash Bros. and Mario & Sonic have full coverage. However, this means that we have to cover all of the content from Super Smash Bros., which can cause us to compete with our NIWA Affiliate Smash Wiki. Look at all the Smash content. Shouldn't we focus more on Mario? So I have a proposal:
Proposer: SeanWheeler (talk) Support
Oppose
Revise another wayCommentsSo how do you suggest those percentages are calculated..? --Glowsquid (talk) 23:22, 22 June 2015 (EDT)
@SeanWheeler, SmashWiki also is very technical about the Smash content. They have tier lists, tourneys, professional smash players, project m, advanced techniques, how viable a character is...etc. If like to learn what wave-dashing, star kos, wall of pains, etc. are, then SmashWiki covers it very well. We don't go that far. We cover like only the official thingamabobs. Ray Trace(T|C) 03:37, 23 June 2015 (EDT)
"Shouldn't we focus more on Mario?" is a moot point. 5 Smash Bros. games and 9 Mario & Sonic games out of the hundreds of other pure Mario games. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:06, 23 June 2015 (EDT)
Change intro standards for mainspace ex-subpagesDON'T CHANGE 1-7 See this proposal for some background. This proposal seems a bit minor, but as a Mario Wiki, we strive to inform, not point out the obvious. That being said, the intros for the gallery space and other subpages are very unprofessional, as their only purpose, aside from stating the obvious, serves as filler text (seriously, one big reason we have such text is that "blank space is kind of an eyesore"). The most useful thing it does is provide a link to its main article. Now, I recall proposing replacing the intro text and turning gallery space into subspace, but I wasn't aware that it would violate our subpages policy, and I'm not willing to drastically alter an established policy just for the sake of changing the intro text a bit. One solution is to replace the current intros with a simple {{main}}. As for related ex-subpages, we can use {{articleabout}}. Articleabout, however, is less than ideal, but there's nothing in the way of creating a new template that link to related ex-subpages without saying that a page of images of Mario is a page of images of Mario. Not only does it seem more professional, it simplifies our introductions so users don't have to continuously refer to a policy that specifically outlines how each intro should be worded. Besides, our Subpages Policy is outdated, since galleries now include a few media files (see Baby Mario). Anyway, another solution is to create an entirely new template which focuses on ex-subpages and links to related ex-subpages only when the related parameters are used. This would make it a combination of {{main}} and {{articleabout}}, but altering it to make it more presentable. The new template would be something like this: Main article: Template:Fakelink Further suggestions and alterations to this template would be appreciated, as it's only a prototype and I suppose more seasoned template makers can have a hand on this, provided they support, of course. So, to sum it up, the advantages of using a template would be replacing filler text with a more useful and simple link, and it would simplify our Subpages Policy, the intro aspect. Finally, this applies to mainly the mainspace ex-subpages, which is what this whole Subspaces Policy is about in the first place. Of course, exceptions apply, but if they're rare and not intrusive, the proposed changes wouldn't undermine the wiki. Proposer: Bazooka Mario (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsHuh, I'd expect someone to say "there's no problem with it, so no change". I think a little change goes some way, though, and my proposal is changing just for the sake of concision and trimming out filler text. As for the copy-paste thing, it's still more of a hassle to access these pages to copy-paste them than inputting a template that generates automated text anyhow. I really don't find those intro texts necessary other than providing a link to the main page, hence this proposal. It's not "fixing what isn't broken", it's improving/refining what we have right now, even if "readers won't care anyway". It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 22:02, 23 June 2015 (EDT) Make a page for Rhythm Tengoku: The Best +CREATE 12-0 MarioWiki:Coverage states that pages for "Guest Appearance" games need to be voted on before being created. That rule was broken for the Punch-Out!! page, but revisiting that is kind of a waste so w/e. Anyway, Rhythm Tengoku: The Best+, the latest game in the Rhythm Heaven series, has two hidden levels that feature all the main characters from the warioware series. I think the game deserves a page for the following reasons.
Proposer: Glowsquid (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsAdd direct links on star icons for 64/Galaxy/Galaxy 2DELETED BY PROPOSER I random'd to a SMG galaxy page earlier today, and rolled over the star icon; clicking would have led me to the file page. So, I got an idea: add direct links to their respective stars. This idea came from the map that exists on pages like this which provide a direct page link to that location. What I mean is that clicking on a star icon in the "summary box," as I call it, would take the reader to the section they are looking for, making the need for excessive scrolling nonexistent. Proposer: ZonkMario64 (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsI'm withdrawing; please archive. Thanks! ZonkMario64 (talk) PASSED 19-0 Yes, I know, we've already had a proposal about this, but my views on the subject have changed. Sometimes, when I want to improve on a navigation template, like adding a link or fixing a redirect link, I first need to hit edit of the page I find the navigation template at, find the name of the template, then find the name of that template in the list of templates listed when you're editing the page, and that's just plain tedious. The reason it failed was because "you should have multiple steps away from editing a Navitagion Template", and wording which generally reflected on assuming bad faith in edits. "But if we add this, then there will be too much vandalism to fight."
This line of reasoning is nonsensical on so many layers it's not even funny. If we assume there is going to be vandalism just because we make something easier to access, then are we really assuming edits are made in good faith? It's downright disgusting that this is even something that's being thought of. Yes, this is something that other Wikis do. It's something other Wikis do better than the Super Mario Wiki does at this moment. Therefore, we need to step our game up, and upgrade past this "if we make things easier to access then everyone will edit stuff and this is bad"-kind of think that ultimately assumes editing in bad faith. Besides, if someone vandalises a navigation template, and there is an 'edit' button when you view the template as part of a page, it's going to be slightly easier to access the template and revert any vandalism done to the template, even without going to the recent changes. I think that's kind of neat. Proposer: RandomYoshi (talk) Support
OpposeComments@Bazooka Mario: Don't you mean "websites should be designed for their readers rather than their editors"? You've got that mixed up. Anyway, adding an "edit" template there benefits readers, as it could help point them to the template that needs to be fixed/updated at a convenient time. Ray Trace(T|C) 23:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT) I'm mixed on this. On one hand, I think that we should add something on these templates. On the other hand, I'd rather it be a view link button rather than an edit button. 3D Player 2010 20:21, 19 August 2015 (EDT)
Replace "NTSC/PAL version" with "American/European/Australian/Japanese version"DELETED Support
Oppose
CommentsI think however it is important to note when that term refers to actual 50/59.94 Hz versions of the games, which can be relevant in games such as the Mario Kart series games.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:27, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
But what about handheld games? YoshiCookie (talk) 17:33, 2 September 2015 (EDT) Delete Meaningless QuotesDELETED BY PROPOSER Yeah I know we went through this before but it was different because it was going to delete entire pages. I'm tweaking that to say keep the pages, but delete meaningless quotes. For example:
In essence, quotes that are only used by one character (Peach and Waluigi, respectively) will stay. Generic quotes (So many Mario characters say "Yes!" in Mario Party and Mario Kart) will be deleted. Proposer: ZonkMario64 (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsI'm pretty sure there already was a proposal enacted to curb these things? Or I swear there already is a guideline that specifically advocates removal of "YES WHOOOOHOOOO" quotes. Ray Trace(T|C) 16:15, 2 September 2015 (EDT)
This proposal is not needed whatsoever since it should, on paper, be enforced already as cited by previous proposals above. We can go ahead and delete those "all rights" and "yes" crap but I can imagine people going back and readding those quotes because they're actual words, I guess. If you want to hear character interjections, go to other sites, such as The Sounds Resource, a far better resource than MarioWiki. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 20:59, 2 September 2015 (EDT) @Walkazo: Since I predict that this won't get 2 more votes by tomorrow, I've decided to delete it. Don't Get Zonked! (blabbing · what i do) 09:40, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
Restrict (if not remove) ImageMapsRESTRICT USAGE AND REWRITE THE POLICY PAGE 8-1
ImageMap templates are images you find on articles such as in World 1 (New Super Mario Bros.) that are filled with links, where you click on a specific part of the image to go to a particular article. They're intended to help visual readers navigate the wiki and relevant games more easily, but I find their usage and implementation less than ideal. They qualify as mystery meat navigation, flashy, but user-hostile forms of linking. While the imagemaps in MarioWiki aren't as cryptic as the moon image example in the Wikipedia page, their designs are still confusing for the average reader for several reasons: they are awkwardly placed in articles and look identical to thumbnail images and their low-resolution quality (needed to fit inside the page) and lack of labels or clear borders make distinguishing between places difficult. As Wikipedia put it, "it may not be readily apparent that the image is a clickable map instead of a simple picture". They are even more difficult to use for mobile users since image maps heavily rely on hovering for labeling locations, which mobile users cannot do. The World 1 example I listed is, unfortunately, typical of most imagemap templates: gaudy, gimmicky, and ultimately useless. This proposal aims to address the following problems of each individual imagemaps. Deletion is usually preferred, but if you disagree for a particular ImageMap and have reasons to keep them, please state so. It is also imperative to see comments below as well before you vote since these are not set in stone, and they can be changed even after the proposal has passed.
Common issues:
This is a writing guidelines proposal because there is a policy page dedicated to this under the writing guidelines category. Again, some ImageMaps may be worthy of keeping (I have doubts though), but if so, then it must caution users when making ImageMaps and they need to be implemented in a manner that doesn't highly resemble normal images, perhaps a special border around the image with the label "image map", no thumbnail framing, and located in a more conspicuous spot in the article. Either way, all Image Maps have their issues and I can't say I like they way they're implemented here. I prefer if they were deleted and at least placed back in the drawing board so it doesn't look at bad as it is now, but all-out-deletion may be too much, so I'm open for suggestions and objections. Proposer: Bazooka Mario (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsNot that I disagree with what's being proposed, but if you're going to make a writing guidelines proposal, don't you need to make a draft? Hello, I'm Time Turner.
These are kind of useful. What will we do if they get removed or restricted? (talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 00:23, 5 September 2015 (EDT)
Andymii: This proposal is not wholly about removing Image Maps, it's simply restricting their usage at best if in case there are reasons to keep one or two. As I said, "I prefer if they were deleted and at least placed back in the drawing board so it doesn't look at bad as it is now, but all-out-deletion may be too much, so I'm open for suggestions and objections." I'm saying that even at best, we should send Image Maps back to the drawing board to allow them to get improved so we can readd them when needed. Image Maps as they are are abused and look terrible in most articles they are in, mostly scrunched below the infobox, hidden at the bottom of the article, or being redundantly placed directly next to the list of levels. They're the gaudiest part of our wiki and thus, they don't improve our credibility. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 15:35, 5 September 2015 (EDT)
Good points, but I don't think we really know what we will do next. You've listes some image maps with comments, but most of them are just "this is useless" (okay, more detailed than that, but, ya know.) I'm always open for change, but I don't think this has been completely thought through. Not that I'm saying all our changes should be black and white, but I'm genuinelly unsure here what's going to happen next. --Andymii (talk) 00:13, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 10:08, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
Overall thoughts: The overworld maps are good for game and place articles (Beanbean Kingdom, etc.), and the world-specific maps are good for the world articles and the game articles, as long as all the worlds have them. When a template is used on an article, it should be used in place of a mere image of the map; this will often mean putting the template in the infobox, which should be fine as long as the infoboxes aren't obscenely wide (but most templates are only about 400 px or less wide, which would be fine for an infobox, and should be clear enough to be readable and useable). If the names of the places are right there in the level/world select screens, no template's necessary to tell readers what place is what. - Walkazo (talk) 16:45, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
Wow, I didn't realize how terrible MarioWiki:Image Maps is... Anyway, I looked over the draft, but there's so many problems with the source material, I gave up on trying to succinctly comment and just did a whole new draft for the policy parts, based on some of your comments on your draft page, and also things that I said here, and extra bits that occurred to me as I was working. Let me know what you think. - Walkazo (talk) 21:55, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
Okay, so I went ahead and rewrote the bottom half of MarioWiki:Image Maps too - to the best of my abilities, anyway, but I'm pretty sure all the coding stuff is right. - Walkazo (talk) 20:51, 15 September 2015 (EDT)
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