Talk:Goal Pole

I always thought it was a skull, and the remakes in Super Mario All-Stars clearly indicate that it is a skull. This skull likely represents that a fort or castle is under the control of the Koopa Troop. When Mario brings the flag down, he is performing a symbolic gesture signifying Bowser's rule in this location is over. -- Son of Suns

Hmmm... you're probably right. You can add that if you want. CrystalYoshi 14:36, 6 April 2008 (EDT)

Aren't flagpoles in SMG and SMG2? Revenge Of Kurbio (talk) 19:29, 4 August 2012 (EDT)

They are but don't work like these. They I think only appear in Throwback and Bowser's Galaxy Generator. YoshiGo99

Move Flagpole to Goal Pole

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

passed 11-1
It's the newer name. According to this, we should always use the newer name.

Proposer: Technickal (talk)
Deadline: September 3, 2012 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Technickal (talk) Per above.
2. JORDAN DEBONO (talk) Goal Pole is used in NSMB2 and we should always update our info. Times change, and so do names of items, characters, etc. If we leave this to remain Flagpole, we might as well rename the article Mario to Jumpman with a redirect to take care of things.
3. ToastUltimatum (talk) Flagpole has clearly been ditched in favour of Goal Pole, which is undisputably a cooler name anyway. Strongly Support the move.
4. Electrical Bowser jr. (talk) If it's the new name, I'll support.
5. MarioSmasher (talk) – WHAT DOES COUNT IN ENCYCLOPEDIAS LIKE THIS ONE? Recent names! And what we do? Move to the most recent names! This is it, not keeping to the old name just because it's "moar popular".
6. Raven Effect (talk) having consulted the manual for New Super Mario Bros. 2 and seeing that they do indeed call it goal pole I have decided to change my vote based on the growing trend that Flagpole has indeed been renamed Goal Pole due to the consitancy of the rename.
7. New Super Yoshi (talk) Per all.
8. Koopa K (talk) I now think we should do it, if we keep consistency and rename all the articles who's names have been consistently replaced.
9. Tails777 (talk) Per consistency I guess. We should follow that kind of stuff.
10. LuigiBlubber (talk)It's da new name!
11. yoshiyoshiyoshi (talk) per all

Oppose

#Raven Effect (talk) this proposal [1] sets a precedent that we should use the most commonly used name which in this case would be flag pole.
#Koopa K (talk) Per Prince Ludwig, I think the most common name should be used.
#Tails777 (talk) Per all.

1. Prince Ludwig (talk) Thinking about Queen Bee and Star, I don't know. The Flagpole's old name can be remained like this. Even newer names are born after a recent release of a new game, we often keep the old name which we are used to the most.

Comments

Hmmm this one is tough, I can't decide, you've both made good arguments. At this point I am 50.01/49.99 for support. Koopa K (talk) August 21 2012 8:25 (EDT)

Question: In the proposal you mentioned Raven, someone mentioned that if she is called Honey Queen in another game, we should change it. As far as I know, the name "Goal Pole" was first used in Super Mario 3D Land (does someone have a NSMBWii manual?) and was later used in Mario Tennis Open and New Super Mario Bros. 2. It seems that Goal Pole is used more often than Flagpole. Even if they didn't read the instruction manual for Super Mario Bros., "flagpole" is often used by fans even after the name change.

Flagpole: used in Super Mario Bros., Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix
Goal Pole: used in Super Mario 3D Land, Mario Tennis Open, New Super Mario Bros. 2

And in New Super Mario Bros. DS it's just called a "Goal". Technickal (talk)

Flagpole is also called that in The Lost Levels, BiS, MP8 and TTYD.Koopa K (talk)

I've beaten TTYD and never seen it referred to by name...searched the script and couldn't find it. And in MP8 it's called "flag". I don't know about BiS though but you're probably right about Lost Levels. Technickal (talk)

In NSMBW it is just called the "Goal" I have the manual I know... Koopa K (talk)

@JORDAN DEBONO We don't always have to use the new name. Most of the time we just use the most common name, a good example of this is the Star which in recent games has been called the Super Star, but we didn't change the article. Koopa K (talk)

I say wait 1 more game, if it is confirmed to be Goal Pole in NSMBU then I will support. Koopa K (talk)

About that. New Super Mario Bros. U is coming out in December, and the deadline for this is September. So if you want to support or oppose, you need to do it now. Hi! I'm Electrical Bowser jr.!

Good idea Koopa K but unfortunately the deadline is before. However, I think we (or Technickal) should make an exception here, letting the deadline stretch out to lets say Christmas eve or something. JORDAN DEBONO (talk)

Two mistakes in that comment Electrical Bowser jr. some stuff can be confirmed before the release date and 2. I already opposed. Koopa K (talk)

I'll extend the deadline, but am I allowed to do that? Technickal (talk)

I don't think your allowed to unless it is a tie. Koopa K (talk)

Quote from New Super Mario Bros manual: "Every course has a goal at the end. When you reach the end of a course, face the pole and jump as high as you can. The higher Mario grabs on to the pole, the more points you'll earn." While it is not directly stated, it seems the name is Goal Pole. Technickal (talk)

Yeah but couldn't pole also mean Flagpole. Also your speculating quite a bit that just because it says Goal and Pole that means it's called goal pole. None the less I'm going to support due to the recent trend that the last 3 games have all called it Goal Pole.

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Raven Effect (talk).

Flagpole: SMB, SMBS, SMBLL, DDRMM, possibly TTYD, NSMBW and BIS. Goal Pole: SM3DL, MTO, NSMB2, possibly NSMBW. Goal: NSMB, possibly NSMBW Points system: 1pt for a know game, .5 for possibly Flagpole: 5.5pts Goal Pole: 3.5pts Goal: 1.5pts (note: SMBS stands for Super Mario Bros. Special which is a mini-sequel to SMB. Koopa K (talk)

Where are they called that in Bowser's Inside Story? Technickal (talk)

He said possibly, also to some of the people supporting you shouldn't just support because it's the most recent name you should support a name change because the new name has been consistently applied. Raven Effect (talk)

I agree with Raven, Flagpole is being phased out in favor of Goal Pole which has been constantly used in later games. Technickal (talk)

Are you saying we should call the Star article Super Star because that name has been consistently used (NSMBW, SM3DL, NSMB2.) Koopa K (talk)

Perhaps, but that requires another proposal. Technickal (talk)

Star to super star is a little different since MK7 calls it the star and since the name has varied from game to game with the star being called at least 3 different things. Raven Effect (talk)

Perhaps we should split Star and Super Star, since we did the same with Dash Mushroom and Super Mushroom. It was last referred to as a Starman in NSMB. But I'm getting off topic here, so let's leave it at that. Technickal (talk)

That's because those things do different things...But your right spitting something that does the exact same thing in every game into two different articles makes so much sense. Raven Effect (talk)

Should we rename Goomba's Shoe Kuribo's Shoe since it's more popular among fans? Technickal (talk)

Technickal you know better than to write things like this on a totally different TPP and overall subject. Put your comment in its respective talk page. JORDAN DEBONO (talk)

What I mean is, we used the more recent name instead of the more common name on this, so keeping this as Flagpole would be inconsistency. Technickal (talk)

Actually we already had a proposal about that [2]. And I voted for this proposal because of a trend in the names well said trend doesn't exist with the goomba's shoe. Raven Effect (talk)

Adding Headers?

Goal Pole page is a bit uncategorized... should we add all the sections for every game where it appears like in Boost Pad page? Tsunami (talk)

3D games

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The flags seen at the end of race/obstacle courses in the 3D games are, for all intents and purposes, an adaptation of the same object. Not only are they flagpoles that functionally act as a goal, Mario can climb up and slide down them. This goes extra for the Galaxy ones, considering the design of that block at the bottom is a pretty clear reference to the "stairblocks" from Super Mario Bros. that appear beneath them. I also wouldn't consider the symbol on the flag itself to matter in this case, as in many spinoff games, they're blank or have a mushroom design. At the very least, if the "level up" flags from the M&L games and the MP8 thing are to be included here, these should as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:29, January 10, 2025 (EST)

To begin with, I apologize if my removal of your contributions to the Goal Pole article seemed hasty. They were well-written and I appreciate the work you did. But I disagree on these specific flagpoles being the same exact object. The impression I have is that the Goal Pole is a very specific type of object like a Super Mushroom, ? Block, or Warp Pipe. It is important to the series iconography and has very specific mechanical connotations that are not met by these poles at all. Beyond our own guidelines on kitchen sinks, I think it would be misrepresentative of what a Goal Pole is to include these flagpoles from Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, and Super Mario Galaxy. It is more than just looks, in the same way not every red amanita-adjacent mushroom in the franchise (or even every red amanita-adjacent mushroom power-up) is the Super Mushroom.

To me, within a mainline platformer, a Goal Pole would have to:

1. End the level when touched.
2. Have the flag slide down when grabbed.
3. Provide a certain amount of points or other incentive based on how high the player character is when they touch the flagpole.
4. At minimum, be recognized in official paratext as a ゴールポール (Gōru Pōru, Goal Pole) in Japanese.

Hopefully none of these are nitpicky. The problem with all of these poles is that:

1. None of them end the level when touched. Reaching the ones denoting the end point in the footraces with Koopa the Quick and Il Piantissimo can (but not always) satisfy the requirements of the mission, but you do not finish the level by touching it. You need to touch the Power Star or Shine Sprite respectively to actually complete the level. In Super Mario 64 (I do not remember offhand if this is true in Sunshine), this does not even always happen because Koopa the Quick does not accept the results if you use Warp Points on your way to the pole. In Super Mario Galaxy, the flag near the end the Rolling Green Galaxy and the other ball-rolling galaxies does not even do anything: the Star Ball breaks because it reaches the final hole in the (pretty apparently) golf-course-themed course. I specify that because if one was looking for a true Goal Pole in these 3D platformers, or at least an intentional homage to one, you would probably expect the level it occurs in to be some sort of allusion to the original Super Mario Bros., not golf. After the Star Ball breaks, Mario can touch the pole, climb the pole, jump off of the pole... without anything happening. Its not even the only pole in Super Mario Galaxy with a flag that is fastened to a stairblock, and ones appear in Super Mario Galaxy 2 in groups, and without even being near the end of any galaxies (all the while looking even more like the Goal Poles from the 2D platformers than the golf ones from the first Galaxy). So generally, these are more like "target" poles than legitimate Goal Poles: they are the direction the player should head for, but you are not ending the level by reaching them. Its the Power Star or Shine Sprite that does that.
2. The flag does not slide down when it is touched. Flag is unaffected in these games.
3. None of them provide any rewarding incentive for reaching the top of the pole. This one is pretty important, because in my view this is the most essential characteristic of a Goal Pole regardless of the game. This is why it was invented, and is the basis for other types of goals in the series like the Giant Gate or Bonus Bell. The higher you are on the pole, the bigger the reward. Outside of Super Mario Bros. Wonder, it is a score and 1-Up Mushrooms. Every single one of these flags is missing this trait (again, with the ones in Super Mario Galaxy not even doing anything to finish the level).
4. None of these poles are called "Goal Poles" in Japanese, or at least in the material available to me, which includes Super Mario 64 Complete and the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. I am perfectly open to being wrong if the publisher and developers explicitly clarifies that these are Goal Poles in the material they oversaw for publication. It just means my impression on what defines a Goal Pole is narrower than the actual makers of the games. But if any of these flagpoles were legitimately the same object as Goal Poles, the encyclopedia would probably go to lengths to point this out given it is a compendium for the whole series, and lists Goal Poles for the games in which they unambiguously appear like New Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario 3D World. But they do not do this for Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, or Super Mario Galaxy. I don't think the object section is wholly complete for at least some of the games in the encyclopedia, but given how iconic Goal Poles are to Mario, you'd think this would be one of the ones they'd prioritize highlighting in the text - or at least I would. But they don't do that.

If these were not platformers in the Super Mario series, the same series of games that introduced the Goal Pole in the first place, and it was just a visual homage like we see in Animal Crossing, Super Smash Bros., or LEGO City, that would be one thing. Those are contexts clearly alluding to the first Super Mario Bros. But these specific flagpoles from Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, and Super Mario Galaxy are not legitimate Goal Poles: they are just poles that happen to have flags at their tops. I'd be curious to know your thoughts (as well as the thoughts of others) on whether my impression of what differentiates a Goal Pole from just a normal pole is shared. If I were you, I would incorporate the information you compiled into our pole article given it is very recurring object and the article we have for it is quite sparse. - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:29, January 10, 2025 (EST)

Thing here is, a lot of those attributes were hardly set-in-stone at the time. They wouldn't really be thus until the New Super Mario Bros. games, considering SMB3 and SMW used much different level goals. The Goal Poal cameo in MLSS didn't move the flag despite being able to be slid on, for example, the one in Melee isn't interacted with at all, and the one in TTYD at best gets knocked out of the way. I see this more like how in SM64, wire nets were now suddenly unable to be climbed from the side, only the bottom, and were used more as a thing to vanish through, as well as the numerous different properties 1-Up Mushrooms (and in the remake, Super Mushrooms) were given. Also, considering the previously established statement that they wanted to use the poles as the level goals in SM64 but went with stars instead, the impression I get at least is that they left them in for those challenges just so they could have them appear at all, while the SMG one is (as previously established) an undeniable visual homage (certainly a clearer one than the M&L level-up flagpoles that barely resemble them). Also, the SMG ones do provide an incentive to reach the top: that's quite consistently where the star goes at the end of the rolling ball areas, so you physically have to climb to the tip to finish the stage. Besides, Checkpoint Flag went from a suddenly appearing icon in NSMB to a consistently present physical interactive object in all later games, so I don't see how this situation is much different from that one. (Regarding the JP name thing, the same could be said for a lot of what's on the ! Switch article; the standard ones in SM64 are just "switch" in Japan, like the ones in the Yoshi games.) So unless you propose to make a dedicated "flagpole" article for "the rest" (including a lot of what's already on this page), I'd prefer it go here rather than be awkwardly lumped on the "pole" page with things like the moving caution-striped things from Dire, Dire Docks, or the orange squared generic poles in Galaxy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:14, January 10, 2025 (EST)

I think the Goal Pole is a lot more discrete of an object than something like chain-link fencing (again, I wouldn't support lumping generic pipes into the Warp Pipe article), and its role was certainly well-defined by the time Super Mario Galaxy was released. But regardless, while I am not personally keen on establishing a generic flagpole article (I do not personally see much intended interrelatedness between independently conceived, vaguely flagpoles, except for maybe the ones from Mario 64 and Sunshine both marking the ends of footraces; I think it'd be more interesting on the main Pole article because that is mechanically what these things in SM64, SMS, and SMG are), I would do that before putting them here. Goal Poles are not generic subjects, and I'd rather we not treat it like one. I think part of the reason why this article has some of the contents it does is because NoA localized this subject simply as a "flagpole" at some point, and the wiki userbase interpreted it as such (hence why Mario Party 8 Crank to Rank flagpoles are here despite not really have anything to do with this one are here). Little of its contents were scrutinized after its article name was moved to "Goal Pole."

And again, I do specify mainline platformers above. Recurring subjects sometimes have different roles depending on the genre they are in. I can see the Mario & Luigi flagpoles being intentional allusions to Goal Poles within their series. My expectations of how it would function and behave are a little more specific in platformers of the same series. (I am also happy to discuss splitting off some info on the ! Switch article.) - Nintendo101 (talk) 22:49, January 10, 2025 (EST)

And yet somehow, our roles in this debate are inverse compared to this one (compared to which these are far more similar to each other). But I digress. I feel that flagpoles that are used in the context of "being the goalpost" belong on here without having to check a bunch of specific boxes, and "flagpole that act as a goal" is as generic as "giant button with an exclamation point on it." They just make more sense here than on a subject that has absolutely nothing to do with flags or goals. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, January 10, 2025 (EST)

(edit conflict) The Goal Pole seems to be an established object here, which makes the other goal objects seem strange to be lumped in here. It's a similar case where Dolphin and Penguin list only a particular design of a character rather than include all penguins and dolphins. I further argue that the design of a small triangle flag on a long pole should also be another defining factor (LEGO Mario makes this rectangular but every other component of this design makes it still recognizable). I would either personally exclude the Crank to Rank and the Mario & Luigi experience points indicator outside of a footnote; they don't count as appearances for Goal Pole otherwise. Big Flag Pole should also be split, being a special variant of this flag pole. While the rest do seem to be interactable gameplay objects and should probably be mentioned somewhere, I don't think pole is the ideal space for them either. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 23:08, January 10, 2025 (EST)

Your position on the Fluff article is completely reasonable - the language used for them in the encyclopedia is what gives me pause for that page. This is a little more discrete of a case, or at least in my view. Because what constitutes as a "goal" is mechanically pretty specific in the platformers, and these flagpoles don't satisfy that, as I outline above. By incentive, I didn't mean incentive to ascend the pole: I mean if you jump for it, and hit the top, you are given a high score or 1-Up before you descend, at which point you finish the level. If you jump for it and only hit it midway or the bottom, you get a reduced score or something less impressive. None of these flags are like that. In Super Mario Galaxy, you need to use the golf flag to get to the Star, but that Star is the goal. It's not the pole itself. I agree it is physically influenced by the Goal Pole. I notice the block: but I don't agree that makes it the same exact thing as a Goal Pole, nor do I agree a flag simply being an pennant with a ball at the top - like the flags in the footraces - makes it more of a Goal Pole either. Maybe visually inspired by it, but not the same thing. I again mention Super Mushrooms, which look quite similar to the Mushrooms from Super Mario Bros. 2, Dash Mushrooms, and a few other 'shrooms. Their appearance in SMB2 even achieves a comparable function. But that does not mean they are the same thing. - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:10, January 10, 2025 (EST)

Don't forget the SMB2 Mushroom of course, which looks quite similar to the Mushrooms in SMB2. Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly that Goal Pole is a very particular subject in Super Mario platformers that denote the end of each level with a fun whhooooop sound and congratulatory jingle. Otherwise, they are just poles with flags on them. (Or not even that, in the case that they can't be climbed on at all.) PopitTart (talk) 23:31, January 10, 2025 (EST)

I would be fine with a separate "flagpole" article similar to how the Mushroom article functions, but I would not be fine with lumping them on pole. That's too far in the opposite direction of "discretion" in my book - you might as well include climbable trees since they function the same as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:37, January 10, 2025 (EST)

If you wanted to make a generic flagpole article, I'm not going to stop you, but I agree with PopitTart that that information would be well-served on the normal pole article (which I will remind folks can use some fluffing!). Trees can be climbed, but they have the benefit of being listed as a discretely separate object from poles in things like the encyclopedia and has some quirks like concealing owls or dropping fruit. (Additionally, unlike a tree, a flagpole is very literally a pole. It just happens to be one that has a flag.) - Nintendo101 (talk) 00:10, January 11, 2025 (EST)

And this is a Dire, Dire Docks pole that just happens to have a hook. Same principle. :P Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:39, January 11, 2025 (EST)

I mean honestly, yeah. TBH that's a very strange article... It even notes itself that the SMS hook is a pole with a hook on the bottom, and that the pole is the part that actually matters, even though that makes it entirely different functionally from the DKC2 hooks.PopitTart (talk) 00:49, January 11, 2025 (EST)