MarioWiki:Featured articles/N1/Fire Flower

Fire Flower

Support

1. WildWario (talk) The article teaches newer players the function of the Fire Flower in a great way. The rest of the sections are also full of details. The photos in the article are of good quality, and the article is very long and interesting. There are also no improvement tags and all of the games it appears in are covered. This is my first nomination, so if I'm doing anything wrong, please tell me.
2. Bubbasour11 (talk) The paper Mario images have been fixed. Also per WildWario.

Oppose

1. Ray Trace (talk) Opposing for reasons below. Most glaring omissions are its appearances from the Mario Party series, searching "Mario Party" has no results whatsoever on this article.
2. TasteTheFiresOfHelp (talk) This article's biggest flaw is that there are still not enough images in the games of Fire Flowers, for example there is no image of a Fire Flower in the Super Paper Mario and Origami King sections, or Mario Golf: World Tour, or the Flower Cup emblem in Mario Tennis Open.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Ray Trace.
4. Swallow (talk) I'm not really in a good position to properly look at the article myself until next week, but going by what Ray Trace said for now.
5. OhoJeeOnFire (talk) This article is not ready yet. Per all.

Comments

• Article may overlap with Fireball and the Fire form articles. Not a point against it, but something to keep in mind.
• Intro needs expansion, and probably a rewrite (don't like how Ice Flower is called a "polar opposite", it has a different element, sure, but it's still a projectile that defeats enemies. "Ice counterpart" is a better term). Maybe could also say what enemies are immune to fire, what kind of archetype they follow, maybe also mention how the fireballs can melt ice.
• Some sections are in future tense (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Odyssey)
• Super Mario Bros. 3 vaguely says Bowser can withstand "many more fireballs". How much, exactly? Also, wording on calling it "the idea of X" is awkward phrasing, needs to be rephrased into mechanic.
• Games could probably say how common the power-up is, like in Super Mario Bros. Later games in series have very specific level appearances for them where they compete with other power-ups. Like, say, in Super Mario World, you can find Fire Flowers in one level, but Feathers in other levels.
• New Super Mario Bros.'s section needs a rewrite, the first sentence is awkwardly constructed (can be considered "stronger or weaker"...relative to what?). It also claims to use its design from Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time when that Fire Flower design preceded that game, it was used in Mario Party 6 and Super Mario-All Stars, all predated that game.
• New Super Mario Bros. Wii neglects to mention that fire can light up dark places and can melt ice (I don't think meltable ice appears in DS).
• Repetitive writing about the flower reappearing in many games can be addressed. We don't need to say "this flower reappears once again", the item is a Mario staple, so it reappearing a lot is common. Just follow the New Super Mario Bros. section. In games such as New Super Mario Bros. U or Wii, etc, going into level appearances I think is more important as both games compete with another power-up and have levels designated more for it.
• Super Mario cartoons can list what episodes they appear in.
• Mario Kart series also incorrectly attributes the modern Fire Flower design to Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time when the flower has received that design in Super Mario All-Stars. In addition, Mario Party 6's Slot Trot predates Partners in Time, and uses that design.
• Same applies to Paper Mario: Sticker Star.
• Article lacks information from the Mario Party series, Mario Party 5 (Squared Away, Panic Pinball), Mario Party 6 (Slot Trot), Mario Party Advance (Match 'Em, Pair 'Em), Mario Party DS (Memory Mash), Mario Party 9 (Jigsaw Jumble), Mario Party: Island Tour (Tile Savvy), Mario Party: Star Rush (One-Stop Toad Shop, possibly Top It Off), Mario Party: The Top 100 (returning minigames Slot Trot and Jigsaw Jumble), Mario Sports Superstars and Yoshi Touch & Go. Minor appearances, but still a Fire Flower appearance regardless.
• Mario Tennis Open lacks information on its role for Super Mario Tennis.
• Possibly could use a general information section, especially detailing the evolution of a Fire Flower's appearance over the years.
• Parts of the article uses phrasing like "In the Nintendo Gamecube game...." and similar variations of that, the console descriptor is unnecessary and padded, needs to be cut out.
• Fire Flowers are commonly used as cup icons, Super Mario Strikers, Mario Hoops 3-on-3, Mario Sports Mix, Mario Superstar Baseball, and other Mario Tennis games are not present.

Might be more but yeah, article has lots of problems right now. Ray Trace^(T|C) 16:53, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

When did Mario All-Stars use the modern red, yellow and white design? Mario JC 23:57, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

Maybe this one? I'm not too sure. WildWario (talk) 00:11, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

Yeah that's the sprite I'm talking about. There's also this art from the original Super Mario Bros.; while not 100% the modern design, some facets of it are there. Ray Trace^(T|C) 00:12, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

That's meant to be those colours? I've always seen that as a pink flower with a gradient... Mario JC 00:23, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

The Super Mario Bros. 3 variant doesn't flash. Watched video footage for SMB3 on SMAS and yeah, I can confirm it's those colors. It has other icons in the game too, like in the end of the level. Only discrepancy is the slot machine thing. Ray Trace^(T|C) 00:28, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

Going to have to disagree on SMAS being the origin of the modern design honestly, it looks more like red and orange than red and yellow to me, with barely any white (which could be attributed to sprite limitations, but frankly, if it's not a good match I'm not comfortable assuming that it's meant to be the same design). I think we should stick to leaving Partners in Time as the first appearance of the modern Fire Flower with inspiration from that piece of SMB artwork. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:20, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

It's absolutely palette limitations causing it to be this particular color and the barely any white parts (the sprite has to fit in a 16x16 square). Partners in Time is not the first appearance of the modern Fire Flower, Mario Kart DS, Yoshi Touch & Go and Mario Party 6 had the modern Fire Flower design before it. I don't think it's wise to attribute the Fire Flower design to a single game when it's more of a gradual change. Ray Trace^(T|C) 18:26, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

That's what I get for just using the sprites section of the gallery as my basis Well whatever the case may be, I don't think saying that a design that clearly has aspects that don't match, graphical limitations or not, is the same as another design, is a very good idea and opens up a lot of other problems down the road. If the designs don't match, they're not the same design, period, that should be pretty obvious. Unfortunately in this case we don't have artwork or anything else to help us out. Of the games you listed it seems like Mario Party 6 is the first to truly use the modern Fire Flower design (and there's really no doubt that it's the right design) so unless there's an even older example I'm fine listing that as the design's origin. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:41, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

I don't really like attributing a particular game to a specific design, since there's likely collaboration between teams in development and release dates simply coincide. I'd say pinpointing to that year in particular, or console generation, is better than saying that the Fire Flower is Mario Party 6's design. Ray Trace^(T|C) 18:44, September 17, 2021 (EDT)

@TasteTheFiresOfHelp: I disagree. Not every section needs an image, too many images clutters the article. Maybe we could add an image for the Origami King but I think the images the article currently has is servicable. It isn't a Buzzy Beetle situation. Ray Trace^(T|C) 17:02, September 16, 2021 (EDT)

I think the article could do without the Superstar Saga section and trim down the Super Mario Odyssey section, those seem more fitting for the Fire Mario article and doesn't involve the actual item. Nightwicked Bowser 08:18, September 22, 2021 (EDT)

Everything should be done now. Are there any other problems? WildWario (talk) 22:48, October 29, 2021 (EDT)