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Merge the identically-named Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest and Donkey Kong Land 2 levels
Template:ProposalOutcome
This proposal aims to merge the identically named Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest and Donkey Kong Land 2 levels together (e.g. Pirate Panic (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest) and Pirate Panic (Donkey Kong Land 2) to Pirate Panic). While it is true that the layouts are entirely different in all respects, they are still just as much the same subject as the worlds containing them are (e.g., Gloomy Gulch is obviously the same world in both games, and the map itself was reused from Donkey Kong Country 2). Just because the layout is different doesn't mean that it's a different subject. The level Stronghold Showdown even shares an article between the two games, simply because its layout is the same. The only reason they were split is because of the vastly different layouts, which may have been because it would look too crammed if it were all together in like tables.
However, I've been creating a solution to that. For one, I've redoing several of the Donkey Kong level articles to get rid of the crammed tables and present things in a simpler fashion (which I began doing after discussing it with an administrator) and completed all levels in the original three Donkey Kong Country games. Before getting to the Donkey Kong Land 2 pages I'd like to reintegrate them their Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest level. An example of how such a page would look can be found on my sandbox page, though if this proposal passes, we can adjust the consistent format if needed.
Proposer: Super Game Gear (talk)
Deadline: December 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Support
- Super Game Gear (talk) As proposer.
#SolemnStormcloud (talk) Might as well split off GBA Ribbon Road's remake in Mario Kart 8 if layout differences really matter that much. It's more convenient to have just one article with no identifier, anyways.
Oppose
- Koopa con Carne (talk) They're different levels regardless of their name being identical, and it's a good excuse to keep the size of their articles in check. The GBA Ribbon Road analogy doesn't hold because the course, while adapted to look good in HD and to make use of MK8's mechanics, maintained its general layout. No, I'd say this case is more similar to Jungle Hijinxs (DKC) vs. Jungle Hijinxs (DKCR), or Bramble Scramble (DKC2) vs. Bramble Scramble (DKCTF), and the proposal is basically supporting their merge on the basis of name alone.
- Hewer (talk) The proposal fails to present any reason why splitting levels for having entirely different layouts is a bad thing. In the case of level articles specifically, where the layout is really the subject's most important aspect, having an entirely different layout between games is a good way to determine different levels, and merging levels just because they share a name and a theme is a bad idea. Mario Kart courses are a different situation, as not only is the basic layout unchanged, Ribbon Road's "GBA" prefix proves beyond doubt that it is the same course. A more comparable situation would be the two completely different Sherbet Lands.
- DrippingYellow (talk) Having two levels in a single article is unprecedented, and also results in some awkwardness, like two different enemy and object lists, two different layout sections, trivia that applies to one level but not its Donkey Kong Land II equivalent...
- SolemnStormcloud (talk) As much as I think Ribbon Road's remake isn't as similar to the original as most would say, at least it's not completely different like these levels are.
- Swallow (talk) Per all
- Mario (talk) The merge doesn't seem to be worth the hassle.
- TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
- YoYo (talk) They're different levels. The Ribbon Road analogy is also very backwards... as they are still both Ribbon Road.
@Koopa Con Carne: No, there are other reasons why I made this proposal, such as the worlds sharing a page or even one "boss" level, Stronghold Showdown, having the same article between games. It's not just based on the name alone. It's making the point that the layout is the only reason why the articles are split, which is why Stronghold Showdown or the worlds are not split as well as why they share information between Donkey Kong Country 2 and Donkey Kong Land 2. Putting the level pages together would establish a consistency rather than have the information flying all over the place. The levels are not just based on name, but also feature, such as Bramble Blast having barrel-blasting between brambles or Target Terror involving riding a roller coaster. If the two pages are together, it will help list the consistent similarities between the two levels' main features, or when it doesn't, like Glimmer's Galleon (ironically) not having Glimmer in Donkey Kong Land 2. Super Game Gear (talk) 14:37, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- They're different levels. Full stop.
1. "The levels are not just based on name, but also feature, such as Bramble Blast having barrel-blasting between brambles or Target Terror involving riding a roller coaster." Once again I bring up Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest) and Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze). Same title, same bramble-based concept. Fits snugly in your reasoning.
2. Splitting Stronghold Showdown would have been nonsense considering it's less of a level and more of a glorified cutscene, whose "layout" is essentially just one long platform where you briefly encounter DK; you can't argue for consistency by pivoting around a minor set-piece that is inherently distinct from all the other levels.
3. The worlds share pages because they're the same exact overarching areas on Crocodile Isle, down to having the same level map. If one were to treat them as inherently different just because the levels within them are, at what point up the hierarchy of "greater locations" would the line be drawn? Splitting them between their SNES and Game Boy appearances would have made as much sense as splitting Crocodile Isle on the same grounds.
-- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:28, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- The Tropical Freeze example is a digression, and it's obvious that Bramble Scramble from that game is not the same, especially because it does not take place on Crocodile Isle, nor does it have the same pinpoint location on the world map like just about every Donkey Kong Land 2 level has with their Country 2 counterpart, which the DKL2 levels aimed to replicate. I would never have proposed to merge the Tropical Freeze level into the Country 2 / Land 2 level As contradictory as this sounds, DKC2/DKL2 levels are both the same levels yet they are not solely from a gameplay point of view, which is because of the layout. There's still the boss levels like Kleever's Kiln and Kleaver's Kiln, which have a nearly identical layout, and Kreepy Krow's boss level also involves climbing up ropes to the next area. The areas range from very different (like Pirate Panic in DKL2 vs. DKC2), to very similar (Kleever's Kiln in both games) to practically identical (like Stronghold Showdown). Super Game Gear (talk) 16:20, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- The layouts being different across the two games entails that important objects such as DK Coins and Bonus Barrels are positioned differently--and I'd argue people mostly read these articles for the items and secrets. The circumstances are there to neatly distribute this content between articles instead of lumping it together in one page and, consequently, making the content less accessible. Stronghold Showdown again is a "level" only in the sense that you can individually select it from the world map in much the same way as Funky's Flights II and Kong Kollege. "The Tropical Freeze example is a digression, and it's obvious that Bramble Scramble from that game is not the same, especially because it does not take place on Crocodile Isle" Alright then, take Jungle Hijinxs (Donkey Kong Country) and Jungle Hijinxs (Donkey Kong Country Returns). Same location, same level placement, same concept, with the added quality that they're both in the same series of games. Merge them, then? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:01, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- Yeah, Jungle Hijinxs is a closer example, though I haven't thought about whether to merge those (it might end up looking like the Mario Kart course pages). The similarities between DKC and DKC Returns are significantly less than with DKC2 and DKL2, which even share the exact same storyline & the latter also aims to almost directly carry most things over from Country 2, just on a Game Boy system. There are still more variables of similarities between the Country 2 and Land 2 levels. Most of the returning supporting locations, worlds, enemies, all the same as in Donkey Kong Land 2. The entire set of levels in DKL2 (save for a few) have the exact same name as their DKC2 counterpart, as well as same placement on world map, which I've brought up. They directly carried things over from Country 2, including the world map, but made different level iterations for the game, changing little else (other than what they did not carry over, like Kudgel's Kontest). I don't want to digress too much into the retro Studios games, as that doesn't fully concern the scope of this proposal. However, the Jungle world where DKCR's Jungle Hijinxs takes place is not an exact replica of the Kongo Jungle world from Donkey Kong Country, whilst the world maps in DKC2 and DKL2 are the exact same. There's no Ropey Rampage or Coral Capers in DKC Returns, and all the enemies and collectibles are different. Meanwhile, there's a different iteration of Pirate Panic, Mainbrace Mayhem, Gangplank Galley, so forth so forth in DKC2 and DKL2, both also featuring DK Coin and Kremkoins as the key items. Super Game Gear (talk) 17:21, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- Just saw the World 1-1 case brought up. I said earlier in comments (regarding Bramble Scramble) that merging based on name alone shouldn't be the deciding factor, but Country 2 and Land 2, despite being different games, have exceptional variables of similarities to one another. Super Game Gear (talk) 17:31, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- So why not merge the Lost Levels with their SMB1 counterparts? And what about New Super Mario Bros. U and New Super Luigi U, which also share the exact same world map and level themes (and The Final Battle and The Final Battle even share the same name), but with completely different layouts? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:54, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- Looks like New Super Mario Bros. U and New Super Luigi U are the most comparable to Country 2 and Land 2. Maybe someday their level pages being merged could be the subject of a different proposal, in which case the New Super Mario Bros. U name takes precedent, due to the Switch version having both games but retaining the part of its New Super Mario Bros. U, whilst Luigi U is an expansion. I'm going off-topic, however, but just wanted to quickly share my thoughts that I may be up for merging those. Super Game Gear (talk) 18:02, December 5, 2023 (EST)
@KCC Just letting you know, you linked Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest) twice. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:05, December 5, 2023 (EST)
- Thanks. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:06, December 5, 2023 (EST)
@DrippingYellow — Even though I've officially changed my stance on this proposal, I still can play devil's advocate and say those footnotes could be replaced with subheaders. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 19:29, December 6, 2023 (EST)
@YoYo — Ribbon Road's layout differences don't bug me as much after Mario Kart Tour continued to alter the layouts of certain GBA courses (though admittedly, I wish all of their layouts were a bit closer to those of their original versions — Ribbon Road included), but I made that remark on impulse and no longer stand by my initial vote. Please don't bring any more attention to it. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 13:45, December 11, 2023 (EST)
Remove icons from Lists of Course appearances in Mario Kart Tour
Template:ProposalOutcome
The time has finally come. With Mario Kart Tour ending all new content, it is the perfect time to start addressing some of the.... issues it has caused. Namely bloated article sizes with atrocious loading times. A quick look at Special:LongPages will show you that Mario Kart Tour absolutely dominates the category. In the top 50 longest pages, Mario Kart Tour accounts for 36 of them! And of those 36, 30 are "List of [Course] Appearances in Mario Kart Tour" pages. Worse than just being long pages, these pages are absolutely filled to the brim with images. Looking at the largest offender, the number of images in the article is over 9000! (Literally. There are 9212 icons in the page.) Outdated meme aside, this drastically increases the loading times for the page, especially in slower machines. If you need to find any specific character in this, it also becomes a giant game of Where's Waldo?. (There are only two regular Rosalinas in this page, can you find them?) This proposal aims to address those problems.
Don't get me wrong, I like the icons. They make the page look nice and organized. But when dealing with articles this large, efficiency should be a priority. I have made here an example of what a page would look like following this proposal. I'll be the first to admit it doesn't look pretty. It might not be the easiest to read either, but at least its contents are easily searchable with Ctrl+F, something the original lacks. Most importantly, it is less than half the size of the original, and should load much faster. This should help curb some of the unstoppable growth of Mario Kart Tour, or at least encourage some more discussion on how to stop it.
This proposal applies only to "List of [Course] appearances in Mario Kart Tour". Other Mario Kart Tour pages have different formatting and need to be tackled separately.
Proposer: LadySophie17 (talk)
Deadline: December 13, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Support
- LadySophie17 (talk) I know this is a lot to change but I intend to take responsibility.
- Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal.
- BMfan08 (talk) I think it's bizarre just how many MKT pages have been in LongPages, especially given how we're looking at trimming other pages right now. Per all.
- Mushroom Head (talk) I seriously have an eyesore when scrolling through these pages, since they are so ridiculously long and image-full. Also I tried to preview the largest offender, and it said "An error occurred while attempting to preview your changes. The server did not respond within the expected time."
- Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. In addition to taking forever to load, the images end up making everything ironically blend together and it actually makes it harder to find information you're looking for, rather than just, say, Ctrl+F finding it in the text version. We can accept something looking a little garish if it's much more practical!
- SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.
- Waluigi Time (talk) Between the long load times and the lack of page text making it a lot harder to actually find information, I'm in full support.
- PnnyCrygr (talk) Seriously considered opposing this, since I thought itd make the table harder to comprehend, but now I support because of the compaints that the table icons are an "eyesore". Also, per all, because adding many icons slows down loading.
- Archivist Toadette (talk) While the recent page trimmings in general concern me a little (since some articles in question would already be very long by nature and are likely to only become longer and longer over time), I do agree that this will reduce the clutter on each table and give our readers a better navigational experience. Per all.
- Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
- Mario (talk) I hate these articles.
- TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
- Shadow2 (talk) Holy crap, it took THIRTY-THREE seconds to load on my otherwise high-speed internet.
- ExoRosalina (talk) Per all, and yeah it will destroy my loading time even on better internet if so many icon images have included like around 4GB or higher.
- Yoshi360 (talk) Per all.
- Glowsquid (talk) Per Sophie. These pages badly need chemo.
Oppose
Honestly, I'd kind of prefer a half-way point. The actual icons are fine, but then you have things like 512x512px kart artwork that's been shrunk down to tiny size. I think images that are small by default should be kept while ones that are large and just shrunk past the point of recognition should be nixed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:48, December 6, 2023 (EST)
- I definitely agree with Doc. BOWSER... (talk) 20:36, December 6, 2023 (EST)
- Now HOLD ON. Looking at the example page, I noticed that the boxes where the icons normally are end up being very cramped. That could potentially be a problem. The crampedness currently seems to be just for karts and gliders, but only because the boxes for characters are big. I think we could fix this NOT by removing every single icon, as that COULD, not likely but it's possible, create a precedent for icon removal, but by changing the box sizes so that there's as little cramping as possible. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 11:41, December 8, 2023 (CST)
- I can see the character boxes being cramped due to the large amount of characters, but I believe the solution for that is to make the character boxes larger than the other boxes. I still fully intend to remove all of the icons for this page, as letting only character icons stay makes the table inconsistent, and makes characters not searchable, which defeats one of the purposes for this proposal. — Lady Sophie
 (T|C) 14:58, December 8, 2023 (EST)
- No, I said change the sizes of the boxes, not remove all icons but the character icons. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:08, December 8, 2023 (CST)
- I think she was talking to me... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:04, December 10, 2023 (EST)
Add unique final lap music to the infoboxes of certain Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart 8 (Deluxe) courses
Template:ProposalOutcome
In Mario Kart 7, Mario Kart 8, and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, certain courses have their final lap music altered beyond increased tempo and pitch. Some have a different, shorter intro, one has added instrumentation, and three even start at the end of the song rather than the beginning. I was thinking about adding these unique final lap songs to their respective courses' infoboxes. They are technically different songs from their normal versions, after all.
I know what you'll probably be asking: Would this improve the wiki in any way, though? Yes, actually. Right now, we're having to tediously list out each course whose final lap song has a unique intro, and while it isn't too bad right now, I could see this becoming terribly clunky if future Mario Kart games include more unique final lap songs. By including these songs in their courses' infoboxes instead, we shouldn't need to point this out every time this occurs in the Mario Kart series.
Note that this proposal only affects courses from Mario Kart 7, Mario Kart 8, and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe — while games like Mario Kart Arcade GP and Mario Kart Wii also have final lap songs that skip parts of their normal versions (and it may be worth doing a proposal for them later), most to all of their courses have this trait and it wouldn't be as notable for them.
- Articles affected by this proposal: Rock Rock Mountain (Mario Kart 7 only), 3DS DK Jungle, 3DS Rainbow Road, Toad Harbor, Dolphin Shoals, N64 Rainbow Road, Mute City, GCN Baby Park, GBA Ribbon Road, and SNES Bowser Castle 3.
EDIT: Following concerns that most of these aren't different enough from their normal versions, I've added an option for just adding 3DS Rainbow Road, N64 Rainbow Road, and GCN Baby Park's final lap songs, as theirs start from the ending of the normal version's music and are therefore the most unique.
Proposer: SolemnStormcloud (talk)
Deadline: December 13, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Add unique final lap music for all listed courses
- SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
Add unique final lap music for 3DS Rainbow Road, N64 Rainbow Road, and GCN Baby Park only
- SolemnStormcloud (talk) Secondary choice.
Do nothing
- PnnyCrygr (talk) Would not it just pad the page's file size up? The page would have to load a bit slower to accommodate these new final lap media files. They are basically the same music, but sped up.
- Ahemtoday (talk) I'm not particularly moved to add something into the infobox to make a trivia bullet point shorter. If the list of courses this applies to gets so long that it's untenably unwieldy, I think at that point it'd be so common that it wouldn't be worth listing at all.
- Arend (talk) From what I can gather, the only differences most of these listed final lap versions have is that they have just the shorter intro, and the way these are different are... kinda minor? Certainly only slightly more notable than all the intro-less Mario Kart Wii courses, but not really notable enough to require inclusion on the course pages either. I certainly never noticed that MK7's version of Rock Rock Mountain had a different final lap intro. 3DS Rainbow Road and N64 Rainbow Road I feel are the only Final Laps notable enough to be included, and it's only because they skip a huge portion of the original music track and begin near the end instead. Dolphin Shoals's final lap will just play the entire Dry Land version throughout the whole course instead of at the end...which also isn't justifiable to include since the regular Dry Land version is already on the page; I think a Trivia item can simply cover that already. I'm pretty sure only a handful of Mario Kart Arcade GP DX Final Lap versions are more notable because some have a different, shorter loop that goes gradually faster per loop (then again, I think I only noticed that with Bon Dance Street and Pac-Man Stadium, and I'm honestly unsure about those two).
- ExoRosalina (talk) It would waste the time if we add the final lap versions, because like in Mario Kart Wii, it skips the first part but with exceptions are Toad's Factory and Ghost Valley 2. In similar reasons with Ahemtoday, it will be very unnecessary if we add the info box for final lap versions.
@PnnyCrygr — Agh, didn't take that into consideration... Still, it's better to not have to point out every course with a unique final lap intro every time another one appears in the series. I've added another option for just adding the final lap music of 3DS Rainbow Road, N64 Rainbow Road, and GCN Baby Park. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 19:42, December 7, 2023 (EST)
@Arend — Not that it will change your opinion, but Dolphin Shoals' final lap music also has added whistles. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 19:42, December 7, 2023 (EST)
@Ahemtoday — If the list does end up getting that long, I think we should still give some coverage to these unique final lap songs. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 09:00, December 8, 2023 (EST)
@ExoRosalina — The Mario Kart Wii courses have their intro skipped entirely, while the Mario Kart 7 and 8 courses in question use a different, shorter intro. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 09:00, December 8, 2023 (EST)
Ultimately, I won't mind if this proposal fails — this was a throwaway proposal made as a form of catharsis while I was stressed. All of us have our ideas that we think would improve this wiki, but of course, not everyone will agree with every idea. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 09:00, December 8, 2023 (EST)
Template:ProposalOutcome
These articles have been around for far too long. Let's look at what we have here:
- Exhibit A: Chain Chomp (Elder Princess Shroob). It's effectively just a purple Chain Chomp with Shroob-like eyes, and it only appears during a specific attack used by Elder Princess Shroob during her first phase. It is not targetable nor does it have a distinct official name. There is an inquiry about a possible Japanese name, but nobody has responded to it.
- Exhibits B & C: Digi-Koopa and Digital Boo. Just like Exhibit A, these only appears as parts of an attack during a specific boss fight, namely Bowser Memory ML. In particular, the Koopa's only role is to shrink Bowser Memory M after he uses his Super Mushroom attack, and it doesn't even appear in the remake. They also have no official name, with their articles currently using one-off generic terms from a Prima guide as their titles.
I see no reason for these to be separate articles. The content on Chain Chomp (Elder Princess Shroob) can simply be covered on the Chain Chomp and Elder Princess Shroob articles, and the Koopa and Boo have no reason to be split from Bowser Memory ML, especially since the bosses themselves are merged. I could maybe see a case for keeping the Chomp if that Japanese name is confirmed to be official, but the others have got to go.
Proposer: 7feetunder (talk)
Deadline: December 17, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Merge both
- 7feetunder (talk) Per proposal.
- SolemnStormcloud (talk)
Primary choice, though this is subject to change if a source is found for the aforementioned Japanese name. Per all.
- LadySophie17 (talk) Honestly, even if the Japanese name for the Chain Chomp is real, it should probably stay merged, with a redirect page.
- Ahemtoday (talk) I don't think the presence of a Japanese name changes the fact that these are... basically just articles on specific enemy attacks, which we don't otherwise do for the Mario & Luigi series.
- Swallow (talk) Per all
- ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
Only merge Digi-Koopa and Digital Boo
- 7feetunder (talk) Second choice.
- Camwoodstock (talk) Unless we can verify the Shroob Chain Chomp has or doesn't have a proper name in Japan, we're not keen to merge that one juuust yet. These guys, though... We mean, Digi-Koopa was so forgettable they forgot him in the remake. And without the precedent of Shroob-ified versions of Mario enemies being a thing (we'd like to single out Shroob-omb here, who while they're Technically™ unique enemies that you can target on their own, they literally only exist alongside the Support Shroobs... who in of themselves, only exist alongside the Commander Shroobs. While not exactly comparable per say seeing as you can't target the Shroob Chain Chomp, we feel like there's something to be said about how much more remote the Shroob-omb is yet it has its own article.), these digital guys having their own article feels a whole lot more superfluous.
#SolemnStormcloud (talk) Secondary choice.
Only merge Chain Chomp (Elder Princess Shroob)
Do nothing
Might also be worth pointing out that the Koopa is not in the BIS remake at all.  Nightwicked Bowser  15:34, December 10, 2023 (EST)
- Added.
  15:35, December 10, 2023 (EST)
Changing Sic Rules
Template:ProposalOutcome
(Note: I'm not pushing anything at all. I just want to see what MarioWiki thinks about this proposal.)
A LOT of MarioWiki users, like me, see [sic] on articles. Sic basically means that the error was made by the publishing, not the wiki. I want to replace [sic] with something else. Sic on Wikipedia explains 3 ways to replace sic. So, how should we do it?
Proposer: PaperMarioGolf (talk)
Deadline: December 30, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Replace sic with [recte whatever it should be]
- PaperMarioGolf (talk) Per proposal, primary option.
Do [sic: read 'whatever it should be']
- PaperMarioGolf (talk) Per proposal, secondary option.
Replace the text
- PaperMarioGolf (talk) Not recommended.
Use a mix of recte and read
- PaperMarioGolf (talk) I guess we could use this?
Do nothing
- Camwoodstock (talk) We don't really see the issue with retaining the "(sic)" labels, personally; especially since, unless we missed something, it's not like there's any specific issue with the current usage of "(sic)"? Replacement sacrifices accuracy to the source material, which makes acknowledging typos in said source material a total nightmare, and appending either "recte" or "read" don't really add any further clarifications than what would, presumably, already be provided, as well as naturally take up more space. And using "recte" or "read" interchangeably would be a complete nightmare; there's no worse standard than having zero formal attempt at a standard, it'd almost universally just be as if "recte" was the victor by the fact that "recte" is shorter than "sic, read". The "(sic)" label is just a concise, clearly-understandable label that pretty much anyone can understand in an extremely brief manner; it's super simple, which none of the other options are despite yielding no further benefits to them.
- Koopa con Carne (talk) Wikipedia is not a guideline. What they're listing in that article are merely observations of how erroneous text has been rectified in quotes and transcripts throughout editorial history--and, to be honest, it's not immediately clear to me if the "[sic: read]" example even passes Wikipedia's own notability standards in the first place. If one wishes to correct factual inaccuracies in quotes on this wiki, they could just use the sic template and then employ the {{footnote}} template or a "ref" tag or something like that.
Restrict drive-by templating and major changes to proposals and talk page proposals
Template:ProposalOutcome
I was informed on July 19 this year that per this proposal, I must start a discussion or proposal in the talk page first. This time, I've come up with a proposal to restrict major changes and drive-by templating to proposals and talk page proposals. As you can see, the {{talk}} template will recommend that users make a proposal for a major change in order to try to help and resolve the issue. I was wondering if there's a possibility to restrict major changes and drive-by templating to proposals and talk page proposals.
Proposer: GuntherBB (talk)
Deadline: January 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT
Support
- GuntherBB (talk) Per proposal
Oppose
- Waluigi Time (talk) Going straight to a proposal isn't always a good idea. Discussion can be very helpful to determine if a proposal is even necessary. Sometimes the suggestion may get strong support and can be done without a proposal, or it may be heavily opposed and the user who made the suggestion will decide not to pursue a proposal at that time. Complex issues may warrant a discussion first to determine the specifics of the proposal. Also, not allowing these templates to be used for active discussions will make them less visible and more likely to go unnoticed. This change will likely only harm discussion outside of proposals and the proposer makes no argument why we should do this. As for restricting major changes to proposals, this is basically done already and it's a completely separate issue from drive-by templating, so I'm not sure why they're being clumped together in this proposal.
- Swallow (talk) Per Waluigi Time, if there's an active discussion then these templates do help direct users to those.
Going straight to a proposal is never a good idea; it is always a bad idea. Can we cancel this proposal that I made?  GuntherBayBeee 15:56, December 26, 2023 (EST)
- It's not always a bad idea, if you want to cancel this proposal you can just cut and paste it straight into the archive now. Nightwicked Bowser 17:43, December 26, 2023 (EST)
Rework the "lookalikes" categories
Template:ProposalOutcome
This proposal affects Category:Mario lookalikes, Category:Luigi lookalikes, Category:Bowser lookalikes, Category:Princess Peach lookalikes, and Category:Donkey Kong lookalikes. I feel these have recently become one of many category types that have started to be over-abused just because certain characters bear some slight resemblence to another which can be subjective. Recent examples include this character wearing a pink dress and blonde hair, Foreman Spike's sprite looking like Mario's, even Daisy. I'm proposing we trim down usage of these categories to use them solely on subjects that are actual copies or clones of these characters such as Dark Bowser or Dreamy Mario.
Proposer: Swallow (talk)
Deadline: December 27, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Support
- Swallow (talk) Proposal per
- Sparks (talk) After giving it some thought, it would be better if these categories affected characters who look exactly like who they're meant to copy. I don't know everything about the Mario franchise, but I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of lookalikes out there.
- SolemnStormcloud (talk) I'd honestly be in favor of deleting these categories as I feel they're too broad to be useful, but as that's (currently) not an option, I can live with trimming the definition.
- Camwoodstock (talk) These categories are at the risk of becoming way too broad to even be useful; there's a world of a difference between a robotic copy of Princess Peach that's basically just Peach with a few metal-y textures on her visually, and... an entirely different princess character from an entirely different spin-off series, that serves as the primary antagonist of a game and is capable of growing in size and changing elements, who just happens to have a superficial color resemblance to Princess Peach in her boss fight. We have to be putting down hard barriers for what counts as "resemblance" here, because otherwise, you could make an argument that in the article's current state, and due to events in Superstar Saga, that Luigi is a peach look-alike. And that is a sentence that hurts to type.
- Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - This is getting ridiculous. Abuse of categories like this is why we had to get rid of Category:Villains, among others. Let's be sane, OK?
- OmegaRuby (talk) : Seeing these lookalike categories listing characters like Ditto or Master Shadow just for being able to copy the appearance of the character is ridiculous. There's a clear difference between characters designed to be lookalikes or copies of a character and characters that use similar design tropes as the original character, but not an exact clone or lookalike. Per all.
- Waluigi Time (talk) Characters happening to share some design elements isn't a useful category, it's trivia at best.
- ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per excessive ambiguity.
- TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
Oppose
- Conradd (talk) This category is named lookalikes, meaning they resemble a certain character, they're not specifically clones. They are related because of certain design traits or ideas. This category hasn't been "abused", mind you. What you are asking is a different category.
Having played Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam recently, there are paper versions of pretty much every character (including Luigi, because of Paper Luigi in the music player). King Boo also temporarily turns into Paper Princess Peach and Bowser before the fight with him. It might be a stretch for King Boo, but would the Paper versions count in this proposal?  Sparks (talk)  December 20, 2023, 7:13 (EDT)
- Within Paper Jam's context at least, I would also consider the paper characters' lookalikes. It is the only game King Boo shapeshifts so I wouldn't agree with adding these categories for him either, compared to Doopliss who turns into Mario's form for quite a large amount of time. Nightwicked Bowser 07:19, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Okay. Is there a category of Mario/Luigi/Peach/Bowser clones? If there isn't, then many of these characters would fit that category. Conradd's oppose vote does have me on the fence about voting though, they kinda do look like Mario and Peach, but there's no way Daisy is a Peach lookalike. Sparks (talk) December 20, 2023, 7:22 (EDT)
- Daisy was lookalike of Peach if you consider her original design from Super Mario Land. Luigi was a lookalike of Mario because, for a time, he was indistinguishable from Mario in either sprite form or promotional material. Neither of them resemble their originals design now, but Luigi is still consider a lookalike, i don't see why it shouldn't be the case for Daisy too. --Conradd (talk) 07:35, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- But Peach never appeared in Super Mario Land, so I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
  (T|C) 07:40, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Wasn't Daisy a reskin of Peach until she wasn't? Isn't the connection between Peach and Daisy evident enough? Luigi never appear alongside the Fury Shadow in Bowser's Fury. --Conradd (talk) 07:52, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- No, I don't see it that way. The developers of Super Mario Land likely never saw it this way either. (T|C) 08:03, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Are you seriously arguing with me that Daisy's original design from Super Mario Land wasn't based on Peach's classic design and that this is all just coincidence? --Conradd (talk) 08:09, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Why future games keep entertain this connection if they are unrelated? The most recent example that comes to my mind being Super Smash Bros. Ultimate with the echoes fighter thing. --Conradd (talk) 08:14, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Isn't Wario appearance based on Mario? Guess what, Wario is in the Mario lookalikes category. Isn't Waluigi appearance based on Luigi? Guess what, Waluigi is in the Luigi lookalikes category. This isn't new infos guys. Come on. --Conradd (talk) 08:25, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Being a perversion of their design isn't the same as being an uncanny doppelganger. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:09, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- If we go that route, we better removed Luigi, Wario, and Waluigi from the categories then. --Conradd (talk) 11:17, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- I'd be good with that actually. Nightwicked Bowser 11:22, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Wait, they're actually in those categories? (actual pause of us checking) ... Oh my goodness. Um, no offense, but we feel like these should've been gone before this proposal even began. Mario's even has Luigi and Wario! (Somehow--thankfully--not Waluigi, though? We guess Waluigi is the result of a Ship of Theseus of Mario...) ~Camwoodstock (talk) 11:29, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- I could see Luigi being on there, since early on he actually was a palette swap of Mario, right down to the artwork. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:38, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- No. If we are changing this to only accept clones we should remove Luigi also. I can't believe some of you are ok to include Green Mario but not Orange Peach. --Conradd (talk) 11:43, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- @Doc Von: We guess? ...But given Luigi has his own category for look-alikes, we feel like having them in each others' categories is a little silly. And also, to play devil's advocate, please don't actually take this as a serious suggestion, given Luigi's debut was in Mario Bros. (Game & Watch), you could technically argue that a Luigi Look-alike (and for that matter, a Mario look-alike due to Mario's Cement Factory) is... Mr. Game & Watch. also holy cow maybe we should like. have this conversation in another part of this comments section. that is 14 colons there and our right hand's already getting carpal tunnel-themed flashbacks to a certain Dino Piranha on fire from that alone ~Camwoodstock (talk) 11:52, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Daisy was never a full-on palette swap of Peach; she always had some distinct aspects of her design, even in the early art. Peach having a color swap resembling Daisy in Smash isn't the same as it being Daisy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:13, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Ok dude --Conradd (talk) 12:17, December 20, 2023 (EST)
You forgot Category:Donkey Kong lookalikes. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 09:09, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- I was on the fence with including deletion on this proposal, still not sure if want to add that at the moment. Nightwicked Bowser 10:17, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- In spite of your vouching for shapeshifter characters on these categories, such characters are actually one of my primary reasons for wanting these categories deleted. Not only is it weird to call Ditto, a creature from a completely different franchise, a "lookalike" of Mario, Luigi, etc. for example, it's also somewhat redundant with Category:Shapeshifters. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 11:53, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Honestly, I agree at that point. You all agree to rework these categories without having correctly defined what is a clone and what is not. Y'all know what's going to happen next? This proposal will likely pass, and not too long after that, someone will make another proposal requesting a new rework because they find these categories to be vague, contradictory, or nonsensical. --Conradd (talk) 12:16, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- I've decided to remove that part in the proposal and focus on actual copies of characters, which I'm pretty sure we have decided on already. Nightwicked Bowser 12:21, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Y'all do whatever you want. I don't want to be part of this stupid conversation anymore. --Conradd (talk) 12:26, December 20, 2023 (EST)
Would Mechakoopas no longer be a sub-category to Look-alikes for Bowser if this goes through? We feel like they should, considering they hardly look like him outside of SMW and have kinda gradually become their own thing, but we feel like we should bring that one up in a formal capacity. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:54, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Mechakoopa design is almost certainly derived from Bowser's original weird sprite, so in a sense, they are. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:53, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- I believe Mechakoopas are often stated to be mechanical Bowsers or something. Nightwicked Bowser 14:00, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Fair point. We see that on a few occasions they're even called Mecha-Bowsers. But, given the article for Mechakoopas themselves is absent, it still strikes us as weird... ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 14:12, December 20, 2023 (EST)
Silly question that we swear is related; we're working on a huge dissertation of every article in these categories, just to sort through our thoughts on each of these and hopefully serve as a resource for where we could draw the line. The problem is that this thing is currently 10,000 characters and we haven't even covered Peach or DK's categories! We're literally giving these a sentence or two tops aside from extreme exceptions, we're trying to keep things brief for once! ...Should we, like, put these elsewhere, or what should we do so we don't completely dominate the comments section with this thing? ~Camwoodstock (talk) 14:12, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Maybe a userspace page? Your dissertation probably won't change my opinion, but it should still be shared nonetheless. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 14:53, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- That works for us! A 15k-character whopper of a page, a full enough description of every page in the five mentioned categories by the proposal, and if we feel the pages should stay, go, or something we could decide in a future proposal in weird edge cases. We don't expect anyone to fully read this and type up a full counter-point to everything here (and to be completely honest here, please don't; we wrote these with the idea of "if another proposal occurs, we will elaborate then" in mind, and any clarifications right now would just be us re-iterating our exact points all over again, and to be real here, our wrists are mad enough at us for this one!), but we hope you can see our through-line with this one and have a rough model of how a trim-down could look like; though, of course, nothing in this is final, this is all the opinions of one body that is very, very frazzled all things considered. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:52, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- Nicely done! If it's worth mentioning, the current consensus on the shapeshifters is to exclude them. As for how to handle the Mechakoopas in Category:Bowser lookalikes, we could probably just include Mecha-Bowser, Bowser???, and maybe the standard Mechakoopa, but none of the Mechakoopa variants. I have no idea how to handle Eddie the Mean Old Yeti... SolemnStormcloud (talk) 18:00, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- We missed Mecha-Bowser and Bowser???, good eye. Those should probably also go in there, seeing as "Bowser-themed Mecha" is its own genre of Bowser look-alike (like all the weird robo-Peaches and duos that are vaguely based on the Mario brothers)... We have already reached a mini 5-stages of grief about Eddie the Mean Old Yeti, and have accepted he's probably best to exclude by default just because his article currently makes it unclear if he's a Kong or a full-on Yeti, but we should likely hold a proposal to determine if we add him in after the fact. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:06, December 20, 2023 (EST)
- If "Kongs" can be gorillas, monkeys, chimpanzees, and orangutans, then they can be yetis, too. (I'm still convinced Candy is a sasquatch.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:41, December 23, 2023 (EST)
Merge the "Microgames" sections of WarioWare hosts into their "History" sections
Template:ProposalOutcome
This proposal will affect these articles:
Look at the "Microgames" sections in articles for WarioWare series hosts; they are basically multiple one-liner paragraphs that describe what the microgames of the host are about, and how the player can play them. It is rather un-encyclopedic for a section to have paragraphs with only one or two sentences each; moreover, the writing is blah. The general host's "microgames" section goes like this (take a long good look at Jimmy T's section for example):
[Y] comes with their own set of microgames in all games of the WarioWare series except [X].
In [X], [Y] hosts [Z] microgames, which involve [A] microgames.
[...]
In [X], [Y] hosts [Z] microgames, which involve [A] microgames.
The second sentence in the above appears repeatedly per one-liner paragraph, marking the need for these "paragraphs" to be relocated to the host's "History" section. Ideally, a paragraph corresponding to "This Game" will be relocated to the section named "This Game". And so on. Before the writing of this proposal, Mona, Dr. Crygor, and 9-Volt already had their "microgame" sections incorporated into their "history" sections.
Proposer: PnnyCrygr (talk)
Deadline: December 28, 2023, 23:59 GMT
Merge "Microgames" sections into "History" sections
- PnnyCrygr (talk) Per my proposal
- SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
- BMfan08 (talk) I had not known about the lack of consistency about this until this proposal came up. I'm all in favor of unity.
- Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
Expand paragraphs in "Microgames" sections
Do nothing
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