MarioWiki:Proposals

Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), removal of a previously added feature that has tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action(s) are done. Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., "I like this idea!" "Vote" periods last for one week. All past proposals are archived. A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed with the signature code ~~~(~). How To Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument. Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at: Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm) Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm) Sunday: 15:00 (3pm) Every vote should have a reason accompanying it. At any time a vote may be rejected if at least three active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation. "# " should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line. At the deadline, the validity of each vote and the discussion is reviewed by the community. Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a sysop, the proposer can ask for that help. The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after school, weekend nights). So for example, if a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is indeed a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours. Also, NO PROPOSALS ABOUT HAVING BANJO AND CONKER ARTICLES -The Management. CURRENTLY: 23:39, 21 November 2024 (EDT) New Features None at the moment. Removals Speculative Relationships OK, so, I've gone through many articles and noticed a lot of speculative relationships in the Relationships section. Baby Daisy and Princess Daisy are HUGE offenders. While some relationships, like Mario's relationship with Luigi, are fine, others, like Princess Daisy's relationship with Waluigi, are overly speculative, and have no place on this Wiki. I propose to remove any relationship that has no real proof and is merely complete speculation. I mean, c'mon, Diddy Kong was on Mario's relationships list at one point! DIDDY KONG!!! And an added idea by Time Q, we could move unsure relationships, like Baby Daisy and Baby Luigi, to the Trivia sections of the article. Proposer: My Bloody Valentine Deadline: May 5, 2008, 17:00 Remove overly speculative relationships My Bloody Valentine I am the proposer, and my reasons are given above. Or possibly below, assuming some Users decide to argue. =| Time Questions: Per DP, the relationships section is not the right place for speculation. Uncertain relationships could be mentioned in the trivia section though. Ghost Jam per suggestions by DP and Time Q. Cobold (talk · contribs) - Per Time Q. Blitzwing (talk · gnome work) - 'Big duh here. It's like saying "Rewrite Poorly Written articles" Glitchman (talk · contribs) Per Ghost Jam. Wa TC@Y – Per all. Come on, babies aren't supposed to have romantic relationships. Per all. I had done this, but Fixitup got a section made again. SJ derp :P BLOC PARTIER. Per all. Those sections are ridiculous. And people, from my view, the Baby Daisy/Baby Luigi example was just an example. There are more relationships like theirs that are speculative. — Stooben Rooben Speculation is a big no-no around here. Marcelagus (T • C • E) Indeed. I removed the Baby Daisy section several times, but got re-added by Fixit several times... gr... Stumpers! Speculation has no place on a Wiki that even suspects the official alternate forms of media as being alternate canon. CrystalYoshi If what we're talking about is baseless fan made-up stuff, I'm supporting this, since this is an encyclopedia; no reason to keep random theories. Keep the relationships in question 1. Moonshine- At this point there's no support for the relationship section anymore. But it is worth mentioning. I think a trivia section would suffice though. Comments I agree to remove those relationships from the section. However, I think putting them as Trivia items would be okay (that is, if it's not complete speculation, but if there is some indication that it might be true (as seems to be the case with Babies Daisy and Luigi)). Anyway. When you say "remove any relationship [...]", do you mean from the relationships section or altogether? Time Questions 05:30, 28 April 2008 (EDT) That Trivia idea is kinda good... I'm on board with that. And, when I say "remove any relationship", I mean to remove the certain character relationship section, not the whole Relationships section as a whole. My Bloody Valentine Yup, I got that, what I meant was whether you only want to remove the "possible relation" from the relationships section or not mention it in the article at all. But if you say you're on board with the trivia section, I think I can support :P Time Questions 06:36, 28 April 2008 (EDT) First of all, this was unneeded as we already had solved this issue. Nice job, hur. Secondly, this is worded in a way that is completely wrong. You're making it sound like all relationship sections on the Daisy and Baby Daisy pages have no meaning and as you said are "baseless", That's your opinion, and saying that misleads any users into thinking there really is something bad about the sections. There's nothing more "baseless" about these sections than there are to any other pages. This was solved, you're bringing it back up, and you're not doing so correctly. Fixitup The purpose behind the proposal is allowing each user to review the facts, discuss the matter and draw their own conclusions, so no real misleading is taking place. Beyond that, the war continued well past repeated protections, so the problem is obviously not solved. -- Chris 08:25, 28 April 2008 (EDT) I don't give a Rat Funk's squeek about what you think of this Proposal being "pointless", Fixitup. Cos' your little edit war with Toadette 4evur sure proved that the problem WAS NOT resolved. I am not at all saying that everything on their pages is baseless speculation. For example, Princess Daisy's relationship with Luigi is valid, since Nintendo is purposely hinting that relationship in basically every game the two have appeared in together. Stuff like Princess Daisy's relationship with Waluigi, and Mario's relationship with Diddy Kong should be removed... That last one is the most "WTF" of them all. This has been a delightful message from: My Bloody Valentine - And don't you forget it! I suggest you calm down. You're starting to sound like you're going off on me again. Anyway, I don't see how you couldn't have explained that already. Also, sections like that don't necessarily need to be removed. They just need to be reworded. Like the Baby Daisy/Baby Luigi relationship. Obviously that has enough information to back it up (meaning it's not baseless) same goes with the Baby Daisy/Baby Peach relationship. (obviously not as much, but still doesn't need to be completely removed or even thrown to a trivia section) Also, the Daisy/Waluigi relationship is backed up by their team names in Mario Party, their chemistry with one another, and their rivalry in Mario Strikers Charged. How is that baseless? I can understand a relationship like Toad/Mario being baseless in some manner, but as long as two people have a history in any manner, there should be a relationship section. Why are proposals always about removing, never fixing? Also, the edit war was over as you saw booster was the last one to revert Toadette4evur's final part in the edit war. He even asked them what reasoning they had, and they disregarded it until a while after. (Hm) Fixitup Wow great, the information is now two times in the article, once in the relationship section and once in the trivia. What happened to our compromise? - Cobold (talk · contribs) 08:47, 28 April 2008 (EDT) It went in one ear, and out the other, Cobold. ;) My Bloody Valentine WaYoshi... the section wasn't about romance, it was just about a relationship. Regardless, they're not real. Real babies don't talk or drive. I fail to see how an infant having a crush on another infant is impossible, especially under the circumstances. Fixitup First off, I just see this proposal as a selfish way to get rid of the Baby Daisy section...again. I NEVER would have written the section in the first place if I knew it would spontaneously ignite edit wars and then lead to the deletion of all the other speculated relationships. Going by your definition, anything that is a possibility is merely speculation and should go. All in all, thats EVERY relationship section. Take the Daisy & Luigi relationship section. Clearly Nintendo is hinting at a relationship between the two, but it hasn't been OUTRIGHT CONFIRMED. But still, everyone still thinks of them as a couple. The same can be said with any other relationship, Nintendo hasn't confirmed that Luigi is jealous of some of Mario's abilities, and yet no attention is brought to that about being speculation (you even refer to this section as being fine). The Baby Daisy section was deleted quite literally for having the word "May" in it, and thus being unconfirmed. While yes, it's not confirmed, neither is the regular Daisy and Luigi section, but still it's hinted at. You can't just delete SOME articles for being mere speculation and keep the others while they too are speculation. While yes, other sections might be a little more supported than than others, but Proof is proof and you can't just deny it. -Moonshine All these proposals just because of the Baby Daisy page! Anyway, my position here depends on exactly what you mean by "speculation". Is this about all ideas that haven't been confirmed by Nintendo, or just ones that seem unlikely and have no official evidence? CrystalYoshi You DO know who is the cause of all these Baby Daisy-related problems, right? What I mean is relationships that are complete fan-made BS, like Princess Daisy's relationship with Waluigi, or Mario's relationship with Diddy Kong, or Princess Peach's relationship with Wario. Stuff like Mario's relationship with Luigi, or Peach's relationship with Bowser are fine, since they do have backgrounds worth calling official/notable. And Daisy's relationship with Luigi, I do believe that IS official/notable, seeing as Nintendo is purposely implying that in almost every game they appear in together. Even their bios in these games says stuff relating to them being in love with each other. Stuff like Baby Daisy's relationship with Baby Luigi, that should be moved to the Trivia section. My Bloody Valentine Are you honestly blaming this on me? You're the one that brought this back up when it had finally settled down again, not me. I already told you how I backed that up, also, if you are referring to specific relationships, maybe you should actually try to fix them yourself before making a big proposal about it? We just had a proposal of someone wanting to remove trivia, and since no one supported it, we decided we should try our best to integrate any information into the article. We don't put things in trivia because someone doesn't find them important enough, we put them there because there is NO place to put them in the article. At the most, the Baby Daisy/Baby Peach relationship should be changed, not the Baby Daisy/Baby Luigi relationship. Why do you think they would be in two GIANT GOLDEN STATUES with each other if they weren't meant to have chemistry? Also, like I said before, sections like Daisy/Waluigi DO have information to back it up. Just because there are sections like Diddy/Mario doesn't mean you have to make a proposal saying we should remove anything considerably speculative. Everyone should know that we would have to consider most sections speculative, and that includes Mario and Peach! This proposal is useless when we could go through articles and fix such things like we had before you made it. Fixitup - Peace The situation was resolved? Ha... HA... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! That was the best joke I've heard all week, Fixit. The situation was clearly not resolved. And, what do you do with a big situation like this? You start a Proposal! I can't just remove it all without getting everyone's opinion on the situation. That's what Proposals are for. And regardless of what you think, relationships like Daisy/Waluigi are meaningless, something 11 other Users have agreed on. Even if you think this Proposal is pointless, it doesn't matter. For, you see, I actually MAKE a Proposal to see what OTHERS think, instead of going ahead and getting in an edit war to try and get MY way. My Bloody Valentine Hmph, fine. Wow, I'm not going to start calling you immature names or anything, but I can say if I wasn't holding myself back I would. If you refer to booster's talk page, you can see that the edit war was resolved. Also, I didn't start that edit war, I was simply a part of it, and a small part at that. Just because people agree with you, doesn't mean anything. What's their reasoning, that it's speculative? How is stating their past experience with each other to back up a point speculative? That's exactly what the Mario/Peach relationship does. I don't care if people agree with you, I still haven't received any feedback with reasoning that proves how it is more speculative than other relationship sections. Do you realize the Japaneses wikipedia even has a relationship for them? That means it's world-wide common knowledge.Fixitup I'm going to say this as nicely as I can. You think it was resolved 'cause you got your way. Sorry if I sounded rude to you here, but DP's got a good point. SJ derp :P Wow, if you're going to change your comments to make yourself look better, then so will I. Fixitup I would say that he has more room than you. Stop pointing fingers and discuss the issue at hand. -- Chris 21:24, 30 April 2008 (EDT) Do we have evidence of any kind that these freaken babies have a relationship of any kind? And I mean direct, documented proof, not conjecture, not fan crap, not 'Oh, look! They are next to each other on a menu screen! OBVIOUSLY they are bestest frends4leif!!!!!!!'. -- Chris 00:23, 29 April 2008 (EDT) Well, Baby Daisy's relationship with Baby Peach seems kinda... Fan-made to me. Her relationship with Baby Luigi has SOME proof; a statue of the two dancing in the Daisy Circuit stage. That said, its hardly enough to merit its own section, or even be considered truly official. My Bloody Valentine I don't see why the regular statue of Daisy and Luigi get acknowledged to further their relationship, while the one of the Babies get swept under the rug. If people take the one of the adults as a sign of a relationship, why does no one do the same for the babies? Moonshine Because when people meet, they become best friends forever, with no exceptions, right? -- Chris 19:57, 29 April 2008 (EDT) That is totally irrelevant. Again, I don't see why this is getting flamed. It is NOT baseless, a giant statue of the two babies dancing has to mean something. Sure her relationship with Baby Peach might be cutting it, but the Baby Luigi one is certainly not. -Moonshine It is not irrelevant. Your first point was that just because the adults are friends (which is also debatable) the babies should be too. Secondly, you're suggesting that a state of two characters stands for this and that. Can you show me text confirming that? Can you show me pictorial evidence of this, besides one stinking statue? Please don't mistake a heated discussion for a flame war. -- Chris 17:34, 30 April 2008 (EDT) How come no one is responding to the points being made here? I think you all know why. Fixitup I know that the Baby Peach one was overly speculative, but the Baby Luigi one is not. I can't prove that Baby Daisy has a crush on Baby Luigi, but nor can I do the same for half the OTHER relationships mentioned in the wiki. Proof is proof, even if it's just one little statue. Just because this isn't as supported as others doesn't mean it should be completely dismissed.Moonshine Because we have lives. Anyway, while lots of these relationships (i.e. Daisy/Waluigi) have been hinted at by Nintedno (or at least thrown out there by some cheeky team name, or whatever), speculative aspects of any article are best relegated to the Trivia sections; just to clean things up and make us look more professional. - Walkazo Oh you're cool. Sure, but that doesn't mean that it's baseless speculation. Fixitup Agreed with Walkazo. And lol at your "we have lives" comment. BTW, how come you haven't voted, Fixit? My Bloody Valentine I haven't voted because this proposal isn't worthy of my vote. I'm not going to cast my vote in a section you labeled as supporting baseless speculation when that's not what I am supporting. Also, we don't have to remove anything. You see how the Waluigi/Daisy relationship might say something like, "But their true relationship is unkown". That's what we should be removing, not, "And as shown in Mario Strikers, they have a disliking of eahcother". The second example shouldn't be considered speculation, and you're showing it off as if it was. For example, we could keep the Baby Luigi/Baby Daisy relationship, just take out the part where it suggests that they have more of a relationship then shown with the trophy, same with Baby Peach and the picture. Using factual information isn't speculation as long as you're not speculating anything while using it as back up. Fixitup That's kinda arrogant of you, but, OK! I don't care if you think it's not worthless speculation, half the people around here believe it is. I see no point in making a section about Princess Daisy's hatred of Waluigi based on gameplay elements. It doesn't make sense. My Bloody Valentine That didn't go off as correctly as I thought it would. I don't think I'm too good to vote on this, I think I shouldn't vote on something that doesn't give me an option to support my opinion. Hatred? That's a going pretty far. Also, I haven't actually seen anyone else say they agree with you about the Waluigi/Daisy relationship. And anyway, what does the fact it's a bad relationship have to do with anything? Luigi/Daisy and Mario/Peach's relationships are based on gameplay too. You're not giving any reasoning behind the fact you think it's speculation. How does it not make sense? Elaborate, please. I don't see how facts don't make sense. Also, even if this does end up going through, do you honestly think that means that gives you the right to just get rid of any information like this? You're not allowed to remove information that isn't speculation, regardless of the outcome of this proposal. So far, no one has proven to anyone how the Waluigi sections is baseless speculaiton, same goes with the Baby Daisy/Baby Luigi section. Everyone knows that there is information to be used, we just won't be able to come to any conclusions with them. Fixitup What we're taling about here is speculation, Fixitup :| You haven't given any good examples of proof that Daisy hates Waluigi, because there aren't any. Glitchman (talk · contribs) I just said to DP that I don't think Daisy hates Waluigi, and that the section doesn't say she hates him. It was shown in Mario Strikers Charged that they had a rivalry. They have bad chemistry in MarioSBB. Their team names often explain a bad relationship. What more do you need to provide the foundation for a relationship at the least? HUH?... Fixitup Can we at least agree that the Baby Daisy & Baby Luigi can remain in the form of a trivia section like time q suggested?-Moonshine You know what I like to do in these situations is this: peel back the speculation and post the fact: Baby Daisy does have a fountain/statue/whatever of her with Baby Luigi, just as their older selves do. Period. You don't have to write any more. Let the reader come up with his or her own theories. Remember: as an encyclopedia, we can, and should, just post the facts. Don't stress yourself trying to think of what Nintendo is saying, just report the hints, and don't conclude. Stumpers! 20:16, 1 May 2008 (EDT) Wow, at least someone can get at the truth here. Fixitup Thanks. So, I guess what you could say on the article would be to mention the hint in a section about Mario Kart Wii, or maybe just a section on... I dunno... influence on Mushroom World culture? It's a toughie. Stumpers! 00:27, 3 May 2008 (EDT) That was very rude, Fixitup. I'm-a go now before I get scolded, though... My Bloody Valentine Splits & Merges Courses and Stages with the Same Name In many games there are courses that appear multiple times, but have a different layout each time. Take for instance Luigi's Mansion (place). While it's good to have an article about the mansion itself, it also talks about how it appears as a basketball court, a tennis court and a SSBB stage, all of which have different layouts, and are crammed down at the bottom of the page. Meanwhile, something like Mushroomy Kingdom gets its own article, instead of being merged with say Mushroom Kingdom or World 1 (SMB), just because it has an extra letter in its name. Another example is the many Bowser Castle courses. The SMK ones have their own articles just because they're numbered in-game, while the rest all are lumped together, despite not being the same actual course. What I'm asking is that we split all these courses, stages and such into their own, seperate articles. Recurring courses that don't actually change appearance much or at all, like Final Destination should stay the way they are, since it isn't necessary for that. Proposer: Booster April 27, 2008, 12:00 Deadline: May 4, 2008, 15:00 Split Booster Per above. BLOC PARTIER. Per Booster. I've thought about doing this once or twice, especially for Bowser's Castle. Stumpers! Per Booster. Can you give us a full list of articles this would apply to? — Stooben Rooben Per Booster. Glitchman (talk · contribs) This is a good idea, part way at least. It might be best to have an article for Luigi's Mansion (place) as it appears in the game of the same name, and then another one for Luigi's Mansion (stage) that talks about its racecourse in MKDS, its basketball stadium in MH3on3, its battle course in MKDD, and it's stage in Brawl. At least two splits. Per all. -Canama Plumber Per InfectedShroom Don't Split Marcelagus (T • C • E) Per my comments below. Walkazo - In theory this seems straightforward and sensible, but all these little articles are going to clutter up the wiki, confuse n00bs, and irritate people who don't enjoy navigating five articles to read about one place and its doppelgängers. Blitzwing (talk · gnome work) - Per Walkazo. My Bloody Valentine Per Walkazo and Garlic. One vote CAN make a difference, hopefully. Ghost Jam Per Walkazo, Garlic and DP. Comments Hmmm, I don't think I quite understand what this is for. If this passes, will Bowser's Castle become Bowser's Castle and Bowser's Castle (stage)? Or will it be Bowser's Castle, Bowser's Castle (MK64), Bowser's Castle (MK:DD), etc.? What I'm asking is, will the pages be split into individual pages for each game, or will they be split into a general article and a course article? CrystalYoshi 16:33, 27 April 2008 (EDT) It'd be split so that we have a seperate page for each track/course/stage with a shared name. So yes, we'd have Bowser's Castle (MK64), Bowser's Castle (MK:DD), etc. This would include, at the very least: Princess Peach's Castle Yoshi's Island (place) Luigi's Mansion (place) Bowser Castle includes the numbered ones as well Rainbow Road Luigi Circuit Mario Circuit Wario Stadium Rumble Falls Rainbow Ride (I mean, Cruise) Kongo Jungle Jungle Japes Mushroom Kingdom (stage) Roof (perhaps just delete the SM64 stuff) -- Booster Sweet. I completely approve of everything with a possible exception of Peach's Castle. What do you intend to do with it? Stumpers! 19:02, 27 April 2008 (EDT) There are two different Smash Bros. stages named Peach's Castle. One from the N64 game, and one from Melee. -- Booster I'm gonna remain neutral on this. You bring up a very good point, but at the same time, I feel its better to keep all of it merged. I tried to make Mushroomy Kingdom and Mushroom Kingdom one article, but Cobold split them. So, well... I dunno what to vote for. My Bloody Valentine Look at the Luigi's Mansion (place) article. The stage you fight on in Brawl is not the actual mansion itself, since it's much smaller than before, is missing rooms, and is now on a floating platform. It's not the same mansion IMO, and if it is, they did a lot of renovating. I'm not saying we should make an article for, say every castle Bowser has in each game, but for stages with their own features and layouts, then perhaps yes. -- Booster Its still the same mansion... Even if it does look different, the overall design is still Luigi's Mansion. But, like I said before, I will remain neutral on this. My Bloody Valentine I'm gonna be with DP on this one. CrystalYoshi 21:03, 28 April 2008 (EDT) Okay, I have some reasons to oppose: I see what Booster is trying to say, and it makes sense. However, despite having diffirent features, they represent the same place in the Marioverse. This sorta brings up a point about the other Paper Mario proposal that's going on, but, while having different features, Paper Mario and 3D Mario are the same person, thus the same article. I think the same could be said with Luigi Mansion in LM, MKDS, and Brawl. Marcelagus (T • C • E) A course dreamed up by Master Hand based off of Princess Peach's Castle is not the same location as the actual Princess Peach's castle. The Smash Bros series worlds are: (original) dreamed up by Master Hand, (Melee) unconfirmed, but in a world where trophies smaller than a human hand battle, and (Brawl) in a completely separate world where trophies BASED off of the Nintendo cast fight. In other words, the Mushroom Kingdom is not the world of trophies/master hand's imagination. Stumpers! 20:26, 28 April 2008 (EDT) Actually, I was about to revise my comment, saying that all of the Mario games(Does not inculde crossovers, such as SSB) are the same locations. So, uh, Brawl doesn't count, I guess. But anyway, besides brawl, Luigi Mansion is always the same place in the Marioverse. There aren't 5 Luigi Masnions out there. Marcelagus (T • C • E) That's good. Still, though, you remember the end of Luigi's Mansion, right? It turns out to have been a spectral illusion or something crazy like that made by King Boo. After he is defeated and the Boos leave, the mansion disappears. To avoid speculation, we can't say that Luigi's Mansion is the same place everywhere because of this. It would be best just to admit the inconsistency and let Nitnendo explore it at their leisure rather than assuming they are the same place. Stumpers! 00:17, 3 May 2008 (EDT) Luigi's Mansion may not be the best example, but you can't tell me that every Rainbow Road track is the same course. Also compare Luigi's Mansion from the Luigi's Mansion game itself, the Double Dash Battle course, and the DS Racetrack. Yes, they're all called Luigi's Mansion, and look similar, but with that logic you could say that several Burger King locations are all the same place. -- Booster I figure: if they are different courses we should have a different article regardless - their differences are the only official word we have on the connection between subjects... arg, Nintendo! Why can't you make clear cut continuity decisions! Stumpers! 20:16, 29 April 2008 (EDT) Garlic Man and Walkazo have good points, I'm starting to lean towards oppose... CrystalYoshi 19:24, 30 April 2008 (EDT) In response to Walkazo, we'll use disambiguation pages to make navigation easier for all. I can't imagine things getting all that complex. -- Booster I have to agree with Garlic and Walkazo on this. Sorry, Booster... My Bloody Valentine Don't be sorry for having an opinion! ;) Anyway, just about Garlic Man's comment, I was thinking that the reason this is different from the Paper Mario/Mario thing is that these are separate completely different courses, not just visual changes. You know, like the Luigi's Mansion course in Double Dash is a battle course while the one in DS is a racecourse. And, just because something has the same name has made no difference in the past: Toad v. Toad (species), Yoshi v. Yoshi (species), Super Mario World v. Super Mario World (cartoon), Magikoopa v. Kamek (same name in Japanese versions), Birdo v. Birdo (species)... the list goes on... oh, yeah: Super Mario Bros. v. Super Mario Bros. (movie). Stumpers! 23:47, 30 April 2008 (EDT) Can't we at least split up the racetracks? Their layouts are never consistent. -- Booster At the very least, I believe it is unbalanced that certain tracks have their own articles while others don't. And its also confusing with the templates. Stumpers! 20:26, 1 May 2008 (EDT) Spitting the the racetracks would be fine, I guess... I just don't know where to vote... CrystalYoshi Stumpers has a point, but I still don't think splitting up all the conglomerate articles is the best way to deal with it. As long as the information is there, who cares if it's in its own aricle or part of a bigger one? For the templates, include the merged courses and have them link to the sections of the main articles that deal with them, that should clear that inconsistancy up. That way, people reading about the race tracks or whatever can navigate easily as can the ones reading about one specific place; it's a win-win situation. And as for Booster's disambiguation point, it's needless hastle. It would be just as easy to include all the Bowser's Castle courses together in one page (along with the stadiums and whatever) instead of having a disambig page linking to something like 8 short, synonymously-named pages. Plus, when people search for plain "Bowser's Castle (course)" they get a redirect, and it's all a big mess. As for the argument that they're all different, Bowser's Castle is different in every game its appeared in, but does that mean we should have seperate artciles for each incarnation? No. That's overkill. But in the face of all the courses' articles that will look very inconsistant. - Walkazo Toads Hiya. With the recently release of Sper Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Mario Galaxy, I would like to make a shocking proposal: merge Toad with Toads. Though it makes me ache to say it, Toad is no longer a valid character. Yoshi still has enough separateness to have his own article, in fact I think the "Yoshi-Yoshi's" conundrum has actually ben mentioned by Yoshi once or twice, but look at the Toad trophy in SSBB! It makes no attempt to divide the character from the species. The biggest problem is that the articles will suffer from us not being sure whether a certain red spotted mushroom man was THE Toad or A Toad.... I know this is not a very well written proposal, but you get what I'm trying to say right? Proposer: Ultimatetoad April 27, 2008, 11:45 Deadline May 4, 2008, 15:00 Merge Toad with Toads Ultimatetoad Keep as is Merging is only for articles that don't have enough info to have it's own article. Toad has enough info to stay separate, plus, he is a major Toad like Toadette and Toadsworth. SJ derp :P BLOC PARTIER. The two pages are much different, and Toad used to be a major character in and of himself, before there were the other ones. Toad is still a unique character, despite getting fewer and fewer roles over the years. Even if he were forgotten entirely doesn't mean we should drop his article. And he did make an appearance at the start of Super Paper Mario, for what that's worth. Booster CrystalYoshi Come on, Toad is a character! There's a species just like him, but there's still one with a red cap in a blue vest who's Princess Peach's main attendant and has helped Mario out since Super Mario Bros. 2. And plus both articles have a lot of info. — Stooben Rooben All the other characters/species are separate, thus, Toad should be too. Palkia47 If we do this, we'll have an article too big. Toad has a whole page to himself, and the speceis have their own. If the speceis was merged, then we'd have no clue which was the actual Toad. There's still a seperate character named Toad. -Canama Cobold (talk · contribs) - There might be no clearly definable character Toad in modern games. But that doesn't take the character Toad out of earlier games such as SMB2. Stumpers! Took the text right out of my keys, Cobold. I'd like to add the DiC cartoons and the movie to the list of sources he is a character in. Walkazo - Per all. Besides, plenty of other characters have been AWOL for years too, if we scrap Toad's artcile, we'd have to can half the Wiki. CountBlumiere - Per all. Donkey Kong Jr. hasn't been in any games recently, but we aren't merging him with Donkey Kong. Comments Infected, You realize that I'm not actually saying we should merge Toad just with Toads, but that they both be deleted and a combination page of both be written, a page that has info on the species and the (questionable) character. Frankly, I don't think there is a character anymore, thats why I made this proposal. - Ultimatetoad Ultimatetoad, don't forget to add a reason for your vote, even if you're the proposer. Toadette, I think you got the proposal wrong; what Ultimatetoad is trying to say is that there's no difference between the character Toad and the species Toad. Thus your reason "the Toad (Species) article is only for generic Toads" doesn't make much sense. Time Questions 15:11, 27 April 2008 (EDT) Ultimatetoad: Yes, I realize that. You just made it sound like you wanted to merge one with the other. I'll change my oppose. BLOC PARTIER. Why to merge Toad and Toads? If there was a person named human, you wouldn't merge him with Human (species) because they have the same name. Think of it that way. And Toad's a valid character, although he doesn't play many roles now. CrystalYoshi 18:23, 27 April 2008 (EDT) He's still referred to "Toad", not just "A Toad"... Hypertoad: "I don't think there is a character anymore," Like what, he died? XP - Walkazo (Super Paper Mario proves otherwise) He's in Mario Kart Wii too. :/ Seriously, even if he wasn't a character anymore, he was at one point, leaving enough reason to keep his article separate from the species' article. — Stooben Rooben 18:24, 30 April 2008 (EDT) Good point Walkazo. And on the same note, even if he died, that doesn't automatically make him the same as Toad the species. CrystalYoshi Count Blumiere's vote is actually about something else, since I think DK Jr. is the same guy as Donkey Kong. But that's a different issue. CrystalYoshi Actually, he's right on-topic. DK Jr.'s been phased out of the Marioverse in recent years, and since the current Donkey Kong is Jr. all grown-up, it would make sence to merge the two articles if we were going along with this proposal's position on such matters. - Walkazo Then we'd have to merge Dr. Mario, Mario, and Baby Mario. There's no end to the implications of this proposal. Stumpers! 00:23, 3 May 2008 (EDT) Paper Mario Is Paper Mario a seperate character from Mario? If so should we make a seperate article for Paper Mario Just asking. Proposer:Dragonson 16:39, 27 April 2008 (EDT) Deadline: May 4, 2008, 15:00 Support Paper Mario is Mario in 2-D graphics; however, Nintendo has them as different characters ; use the Brawl trophies. Nintendofan146 14:51, 29 April 2008 (EDT) Oppose Blitzwing (talk · gnome work) He's Mario, nuff said. If we makes a separate article for Paper Mario, we should do the same for 3D Mario, Super Smash Bros. Mario, Godawful Movie Mario, Hotel Mario Mario, Mama Luigi... Ect. Glitchman (talk · contribs) Per the Winging-Blitz :P CrystalYoshi He's just Mario, after getting a magic spell making him 2D... just kidding. Per Blitzwing. Besides, what is there to say about Paper Mario? People expect the information about him in Paper Mario games to be in his own article. BLOC PARTIER. Per the lighning wing. Stumpers! It's just an art style change. On a related note, Blitzwing's comment about separating SSB Mario isn't a good oppose: according to Sakurai, it's trophies fighting in Brawl. The Mario of the main series isn't a trophy, so technically they are two different people... but a separate character doesn't always mean a separate article (Ashley and Red), so that's why they're still together in one article. Girrrtacos The Mario from SMB2 is the same Mario as SM64, just as Paper Mario. My Bloody Valentine Even if its alternate canon (I still think the RPG's is official canon, but others disagree), Paper Mario is still Mario. This isn't Legend of Zelda, ya know. — Stooben Rooben A person is a person, no matter how small. Mario is Mario, no matter what form. Paper Mario doesn't qualify as a form or seperate character IMO. Just keep it as is -- Booster User:Byfordej Per All Bob-omb buddy -Paper mario is just mario but in a different form. Same 'ol Mario -Canama It's just Mario with a different art style. It's still him. Seperate Brawl trophies means nothing, or else Striker Mario is a different character too.Darth Waluigi 19:18, 29 April 2008 (EDT) GreenKoopa - Comments or questions?Thats like seperating SMB3 mario from SM64 mario because of the different style. Walkazo - Per all. Grapes .....k? Mario just Mario no matter what form he is and even if he's paper his it does mean his a "tranformed" different charater. (Same persona, same person.) user:Meat Knight Though I do love Paper Mario very much, in the end, he's still just Mario. Comments Stumper: Eh, never heard of a wonderful thing called "No taking things literally"? I was taking SSB Mario as an example, no needs to lecture me about him being a different character blablablablab but that he is merged because blablabla. That's really annoying. --Blitzwing 06:51, 28 April 2008 (EDT) Actually, the proposals thing is about taking things literally, so you shouldn't take offense at being "lectured" when I'm trying to clarify your point for people who haven't voted yet. Stumpers! 20:10, 29 April 2008 (EDT) Not that I don't agree with you guys, but then, WHAT ABOUT Dr. Mario?!?!1111///1 HyperToad Well, Gameplay-wise, Dr. Mario is a different character from Mario because of his appearance in Super Smash. Bros. Melee. --Blitzwing 16:39, 28 April 2008 (EDT) Uh oh, HyperToad is right... CrystalYoshi P.S. Blitzwing, please try to talk to Stumpers in a nicer way. HyperToad: Although Dr. Mario is a seperate article, it's one of Mario's personas. Paper Mario, on the otehr hand, is him without a different job and costume. The only difference is the art style.Darth Waluigi 19:23, 29 April 2008 (EDT) Ha Ha! Mario's Schizophrenic! LOL! But seriously, I've been irritated by "Dr. Mario" for years, and while I'd fully support moving him to the main Mario page, I have a feeling that won't fly. Which is unreasonable. It's been stated they're the same guy, only one time he's acting like a doctor and the other time he's acting like a plumber... or a demolitionist... or a kart, stunt-bike or motorcycle racer... or a soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, golf or tennis player... or a fireman, party host or ring-leader... or a juggler... so... what exacly, besides the name, sets Dr. Mario apart? The "both forms of Mario fight in SSB" isn't too good since Baby Mario's also been around at the same time as adult Mario, so the time-space continuum obviously doesn't apply to spin-offs. - Walkazo ...or a teacher... or a factory-head/company owner... or a chef... Just to ask, why do we have a Toon Link article. It's like everyone else said Toon Link is just a different artstyle. So why do we have Toon link as a article.Dragonson 20:29, 1 May 2008 (EDT) Well, in the article it seems like he's a different guy than Link, and also he's a separate playable character. CrystalYoshi Well, I'm not an expert on the Zelda continuum so Toon Link might be officially seperate from his more realistic counterpart. Otherwise, the fact he's playable along-side normal Link means squat, since they're all trophies brought to life, or whatever, and there are lots of cases where there's multiple trophies for a single character. Therefore, if that's the only reason there's two artciles, I say, merge 'em. - Walkazo Paper Mario is different cos' he's made of Paper, not Polygons. </RudnickiMarioX06> lol, but, honestly, that's a pathetic logic. Toon Link and Link are different. The Link in Brawl is from Twilight Princess, which tooks place several thousand(?) years before Wind Waker. Toon Link is a DIFFERENT Link, who appeared WAAAAAAY after Twilight Princess Link. The Legend of Zelda is jam packed with different Link's; Just check Toon Link's codec. THAT'S why they have their own articles; that, and they are seperate playable characters. So you can't compare Link/Toon Link with Mario/Paper Mario. My Bloody Valentine Subspace Army Enemies So, I've been going through the Wiki, and I've noticed a lot of articles being made on the the Subspace Army enemies. IMO, these articles are worthless. Yes, I know, it's amazing that I have a limit to the Smash Bros. content on the Wiki, but I believe the Subspace Army enemies are too minor to have their own articles. I propose we merge them all with the Subspace Army article. Proposer: My Bloody Valentine Deadline: May 8, 2008, 17:00 Merge with Subspace Army My Bloody Valentine I am the proposer, and... Blah blah blah. RAP... Per DP. Glitchman (talk · contribs) Per DP. — Stooben Rooben Per DP. The less stublets, the better. BLOC PARTIER. Per DP. Marcelagus (T • C • E) Per DP - I already redirected a whole bunch of the enemies before, but now it's starting again... D: Storm Yoshi Per DP but... Green GuyPer DP, Stooben, and the Grarlic GuyE Keep 'em split Cobold (talk · contribs) - Those are just as notable as Melee Adventure mode enemies, who all have articles undebated last time I checked. Plumber Per Cobold Comments Eh, to be fair, they're more major than Condor. At least they have a name. --Blitzwing 06:38, 1 May 2008 (EDT) And I didn't want that article made. My point being, THERE IS A LIMIT! <_< My Bloody Valentine Blitzwing, this proposal could be what you're looking for. I'm sure you've noticed this before, but sometimes one proposal dominoes into another, with the new proposals being supported by the results of the previous one. Stumpers! 20:19, 1 May 2008 (EDT) At least have one on Primid, please? Palkia47 Yeah, having a Primid one would be nice, IMO. BLOC PARTIER. There's always room in lists for a main article template, right? Stumpers! 20:19, 1 May 2008 (EDT) Perhaps Primid could be an exception... Ehhhhhhh... That's debatable, I think. My Bloody Valentine But articles like Octorok, ReDead and Polar Bear are okay? I don't see them being any different to Subspace Army enemy articles. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 09:22, 2 May 2008 (EDT) Those articles should be merged into their own page as well... My Bloody Valentine Which would have a conjectural name. Or simply "List of enemies". I don't think we can put all those Subspace Emissary enemies into the Subspace Army article, I'm not quite sure where they all belong. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 09:54, 2 May 2008 (EDT) Seeing as all the SSE enemies are members of the Subspace Army, they DO fit in that article... And, making a list of enemies... How's that bad? Dude, you make articles on simple ENEMIES, then we'll have to make articles on Assist Trophies and Pokémon... =| My Bloody Valentine Yeah, things are debatable around here, and there's no clear line. In my opinion, we should have enemy articles. Thus I am voting for keeping them. This doesn't mean I would support Assist Trophy/Pokémon articles either. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 11:34, 2 May 2008 (EDT) IMO, we should have a page titled "List of Enemies and stage hazard in the Smash. Bros." series. I don't understand why we have articles on completly random things like Tingle, Ultimate Chimera and the guys Cobold listed above. --Blitzwing 11:40, 2 May 2008 (EDT) Agreed, Blitzwing. My Bloody Valentine Changes None at the moment. Miscellaneous Coconut Mall Department Stores In Mario Kart Wii, the Coconut Mall course has many little stores, advertisements, and other things like that. I think we should make articles for each of these, such as the one I already made, Coco Burger. If a store exists in the game and we can give the article enough information, I think we should go for it. What do you guys think? Or we could do another idea that I just thought of and make an article with a list of all the stores and ads, instead of one article for each. Proposer: Tiptup Jr. Deadline: May 9, 2008, 20:00 Make them/Make a list! Tiptup Jr. So... yeah. I'm the proposer and all. Reasons stated above. Stumpers! Definately. If there's not enough information about each we can always consolidate them into a list, but this is valid information that should be on the Wiki. What a waste of time! My Bloody Valentine This is the most ridiculous Proposal I've ever seen. They are merely stores and posters; No REAL information is EVER given. They are just easter eggs/minor additions, nothing more. And, Stumpers, play the game first before you assume the stores and posters have information... Uh-oh, that sounded kinda impolite. D= Supertroopa Per DP. This way can't work because we can't have seperate articles of every single insignificant easter eggs as said before by DP. This has to be a wiki of more important information rather than more articles about shops that are advertised on a course of like Coconut Mall. Blitzwing (talk · gnome work) - The List of Sponsors would be a good place to put that info. No needs to makes articles about every sign and billboards of the Marioverse. Comments I think making these articles would make the Mario Wiki a more complete guide to Mario's world and would help people find as much information as possible about Mario Kart Wii. We could also put what type of Miis appear in each advertisement, like a female for a certain store, and a male for another. Just a thought. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tiptup Jr. (talk). Tiptup Jr., please always add a reason next to your vote, otherwise it's invalid. Even if you're the proposer. :/ Time Questions 05:53, 3 May 2008 (EDT) Since there is no actual information given on any of the stores and posters in this circuit, any information added to the article will be speculation and fan junk... My Bloody Valentine What's about putting info of these things on the List of Mario Kart Sponsors? --Blitzwing 07:37, 3 May 2008 (EDT) Seems like a good idea, Blitzwing. My Bloody Valentine Technically, the stores in Coconut Mall are not sponsors of Mario Kart, they're just... there. Maybe we could make a separate article with a list of Coconut Mall stores, instead of one article for each store? Tiptup Jr.