MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''


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==Changes==
==Changes==
===Rename ''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon'' article===
===Recreate ''Smash Bros. DOJO!!''===
''[[Luigi's Mansion 2]]'' was renamed as ''[[Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon]]'' in the North American version. However, ''[[Luigi's Mansion 3]]'' was not renamed into subtitle and numbered "3" internationally. Accordingly, the number was maintained in ''[[Luigi's Mansion 2 HD]]''.
As far as I can tell, this proposal won't contradict the big ongoing proposal. 17 years ago [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/3#Articles_on_Websites this proposal] removed ''Smash Bros. DOJO!!'', an official website for Brawl that contains some cool content about the game. The website is still accessible, which is really surprising for Nintendo. The proposal decided that all website articles should be deleted, something this wiki no longer does (just look at [[Play Nintendo]], [[Wario's Warehouse]], and [[Nintendo Kids Space]]). ''Smash Bros. DOJO!!'' contains plenty of ''Mario'' content (mostly in the form of articles similar to Wario's Warehouse) that should be covered on its own page.
 
From [[King Boo]] article, the section is named as "Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon / Luigi's Mansion 2 HD". The HD version and the name are different, adding to the complexity and confusion. Now that HD is out, the article name must be unified into one name.
 
Should the names in the articles be unified by number "2"?


<nowiki>Category:Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon locations → Category:Luigi's Mansion 2 locations</nowiki>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Axii}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 22, 2024, 23:59 GMT


'''Proposer''': {{User|Windy}}<br>
====Support====
'''Deadline''': July 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Axii}} A proposal to reinstate a deleted ''Smash'' page, unbelievable
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We're surprised this was deleted given we're currently the last line of defense for [[Wario's Warehouse]] nowadays--talk about a change of heart! We wouldn't be opposed to greater documentation of Nintendo's promotional websites, frankly, and this'd be a good starting point for that. Smash DOJO is one of the most famous examples of one of these promotional sites, and while we ''are'' a little shaky given it's Smash and not Mario outright, there's nothing preventing us from doing something similar for more Mario-related websites down the road.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.


====Support 1: Rename everything====
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal.</s>
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I was actually going to bring up this idea as possibly being supported by [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences|this proposal]], but the HD release date slipped my mind. I'm all for keeping them consistent, especially since most players will know the game as ''Luigi's Mansion 2'' now.


====Support 2: Rename if have two names in the article====
<s>#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per proposal.</s>
#{{User|Windy}} Semi-support. Category won't be renamed, but I want to unified into "Luigi's Mansion 2" in each articles if listed as "Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon / Luigi's Mansion 2 HD".
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Personally, I think this is better for a broader discussion since it would be nice to have it streamlined in general, but I'll take it.


====Oppose: Do nothing====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} North American names often take priority for subjects.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} The Dojo is the same as the ''[https://www.smashbros.com/wiiu-3ds/us/ Smash 4]'' or ''[https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/index.html Ultimate]'' websites — all three of them, like most official video game websites, are basically advertisements for their respective games. We're not the Smash Wiki — I see zero need for our coverage of the Smash series to go so deep as to begin to cover its promotional material.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per [[MarioWiki:Naming]], we always prioritise the North American names for games. While that does cause some inconsistencies in this case, it's simply a reflection of the official naming inconsistency, so by all means it ''should'' be inconsistent. It's our job to report the facts, not to "fix" the official naming. In fact, the [https://www.youtube.com/live/s7t5jnpkCkI Nintendo Direct] that announced Luigi's Mansion 2 HD called it "a visually enhanced version of Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon", so it's not like they've erased the "Dark Moon" name. Also, what about this is different to [[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]], which is called just "Super Mario RPG" in Japan and was then named as such worldwide with the remake?
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} we don't need to keep eating smashwiki's lunch. if there's enough exclusively mario-centric content to warrant making a page out of, i'll change my vote, but for now i'm firmly on the camp of "smash stuff is not mario stuff"
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per Hewer
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} If we have the official website for Brawl, will we create pages on the Smash 4 and Ultimate websites, the SmashBoards forums and every {{iw|smashwiki|Category:Websites|website}} Smash Wiki has?
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} ''Smash Bros. DOJO!!'' is the website for ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl'', and I don't know of any instances of this wiki actually making a page for a game's official website, so this would just be incosistent. I'm fine with the general idea of covering the posts on the website, but this would also be inconsistent as neither the posts on the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' website, or [https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_Director%27s_Room_Miiverse_posts ''Super Smash Bros. 4'''s "pic of the day" series], have pages here. I want to stress that I don't take issue with either of these concepts as a whole, I'm just not a fan of making a change to create an article on this one topic, and would prefer a bigger proposal that allows coverage of similar topics as well.
#{{User|Mario}} Not relevant to MarioWiki's goals.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Shadow2}} The 3DS version is entitled "Dark Moon"


====Comments====
====Comments====
Shouldn't the proposer weigh in? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:42, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
I'd suggest that the website's (textual) contents not be entirely copied and pasted here, though. I understand why this was done with Wario's Warehouse, as that site pretty much disappeared without a trace, but Smash DOJO's still officially up and has been backed up on Internet Archive (thank god Wayback Machine's at least read-only now). I envision its wiki article having a summary of each section of the site and a list of blog posts with relevant links for each section. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:22, October 15, 2024 (EDT)
:Unless Nintendo takes it down, that's the plan. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 14:29, October 15, 2024 (EDT)


Slightly off-topic, but I've been thinking about making a proposal for changing the (''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon'') disambiguation identifier to (''Luigi's Mansion 2''), in lieu to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Rename pages with the full Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars title|previous]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/67#Use shorter disambiguation identifier (without subtitle) for Donkey Kong Country 2 and Donkey Kong Country 3 pages|proposals]] about shortening identifiers, now that ''Luigi's Mansion 2 HD'' is out. The problem, however, that the American name does not contain a single 2 in the title, unlike its name in most other regions, and it's the American names that must be prioritized according to [[MarioWiki:Naming]]. Should I still make a proposal about this or just drop it? {{User:Arend/sig}} 07:46, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
"We wouldn't be opposed to greater documentation of Nintendo's promotional websites, frankly, and this'd be a good starting point for that."<br>[[Play Nintendo]], [[Nintendo Kids Space]], [[SMBPlumbing.com]], and [[Welcome to Greedville]] are a joke to you??? :'((( {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:47, October 15, 2024 (EDT)
:I'm pretty sure this proposal passing would achieve that anyway, so you should probably at least wait until this one's over before making that proposal. I'd likely oppose it for the reasons you mentioned, though. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:52, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
:We know this was probably a goof, but honestly, those articles are a very nice basis for what we're talking about! We mostly mean we could also add stuff like the old flash-based NSMB website that had a boatload of downloadables and even hints for the game itself (the former have an incomplete list on that game's gallery, the latter seem to be entirely AWOL), or maybe even stuff like the Japanese ''Paper Mario'' site that had [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nmqj/bc_kekka/sakuhin1.html pre-created lists of badge setups for the player to try out, complete with descriptions of their strategies]. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 16:55, October 15, 2024 (EDT)


@Hewer: ''Super Mario RPG'' has a different precedent that would have to be set by a separate proposal - the Japanese title is the one favored by the reissue worldwide (there's no telling if the PAL version would've kept the North American subtitle since it was canceled). In contrast, most of the world knows ''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon'' as ''Luigi''/''Luigi's Mansion 2'', and it's an existing title for English audiences. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:07, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
@SeanWheeler why are you implying fan websites would get covered? This is not ''Smash'' wiki. This is a Mario wiki that should cover everything ''Mario'', and ''Smash Bros. DOJO!!'' contains just that. Official ''Mario'' content published by Nintendo. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 02:25, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
:But it's not the one used in the part of the world prioritised by this wiki's naming policy (and often by Nintendo), and I'd rather stay consistent with that preference. This isn't the only time the American name is the odd one out - [[Wii DK Summit|DK Summit]], for example, is "DK Snowboard Cross" in Japan and "DK's Snowboard Cross" in Europe. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:41, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
::Yes, we know things can differ for different English audiences (although I don't know enough about ''Mario Kart'' courses to say if your example is a consistent difference between the American and British English versions in each game or if the latter localization eventually got discontinued later on). The part I want to underline is "<u>most commonly used English name</u>". Historically, Nintendo generally prefers North America for reissues for brand unification when the British English material differs; for example, ''Star Fox 64''{{'}}s reissue is ''Star Fox 64 3D'' instead of ''Lylat Wars 3D'' in terrorities where the original sold as ''Lylat Wars''; ''Fire Emblem'' titles after ''Shadow Dragon'' for DS use American English localization terms where the British English versions differed; etc. What happened with ''Luigi's Mansion 2'' is a deviation from expected norms, and so, it makes sense to respect that deviation. Yes, a preview called it ''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon'' in the North American version of the Direct before the final title was revealed at a later point, but I don't think there were any more references to that subtitle. It was, effectively, cleaned up by Nintendo themselves, likely so there was no casual mistaking that it was ''3''{{'}}s predecessor in a Switch collection. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:24, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::DK Summit's regional naming difference remains in the Booster Course Pass, released only last year (there are a few other courses with similar regional naming differences, but usually the American name is the one that matches the Japanese more closely while the European name deviates, whereas it's the other way round for DK Summit). Anyway, the "most commonly used English name" bit in the naming policy is in the same sentence as the stipulation that we must use North American names, that's what it refers to. We are respecting Nintendo's deviation by calling Luigi's Mansion 2 HD as such, not by retroactively changing the name of the original 3DS version, which matches neither Nintendo's handling nor our own naming policy. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:40, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::A recent [https://www.nintendo.com/us/whatsnew/luigis-mansion-tm-2-hd-is-available-n-aaaaaah/ blurb] from NoA (the only Nintendo apparently) for the launch trailer states the following: "''You may notice that the '''Luigi’s Mansion™ 2 HD''' game looks a bit familiar. That’s because this classic adventure from the Nintendo 3DS™ system is returning in style!''" No, it doesn't ''explicitly'' refer to the original as such, but it is strongly implicit in the wording as a returning classic. I don't see anything wrong with this; it makes things easier to follow for everyone, and makes identifiers and categories more navigatable. We're not removing the old name; it will just be acknowledged as the North American name of the original. There was probably an expectation that the final NA title might've been along the lines of ''Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon HD'', but that didn't happen. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:04, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I'm not denying that the game is a re-release, that doesn't have anything to do with its different title. As much as I'm glad Nintendo removed this regional difference for the re-release, I think us retroactively applying that to the original game is the wrong move. It only makes things more confusing for every game covered on the wiki that was released in North America to use its name from that region except for this particular one, and due only to a re-release of it from years later. While I don't normally like using examples from different series, [[WiKirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]] feels like a similar enough case here: it was called "Kirby's Adventure Wii" in Europe, then the remake had its English name standardised to "Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe" worldwide, yet European promotional material refers to a game titled "Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe" as "a deluxe version of Kirby's Adventure Wii", showing that Nintendo doesn't necessarily consider a changed name for a re-release to mean that the original game's name for that region has changed as well, so we can follow suit here. Also, a bit of an aside, but what box art do we prioritise for the game's article if this proposal passes? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:30, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::::I'd look to ''[[wikirby:Kirby Super Star|Kirby's Fun Pak]]'' (EU), which has been re-released as ''Kirby Super Star Ultra'' on DS and then as ''Kirby Super Star'' (NA) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoLOoYDFxMw ever] [https://www.nintendo.com/en-gb/News/2023/March/You-can-play-these-14-Kirby-games-right-now--2356085.html since] the Super NES Classic Mini in 2017 (I think ''Star Fox'', too, which was ''Starwing'' in the same territories). It seems like Nintendo of Europe is intent on using those releases going forward, and yes, this is relevant as it's the same publisher and we can see a break of pattern. I think we can throw a bone when the tables have turned. (As for box art: does that even need to change when ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels''{{'}}s article captions the original unaltered title screen showing ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' as ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels''? Clean key artwork might be best, but I guess you can make it the European or Australian one.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:45, July 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Super Star is simply a different case to Return to Dream Land, which still shows that they can give a game's re-release a different name without retroactively changing the name of the original too (my European version of Kirby Star Allies demonstrates this - in the pause screen text that references previous games, Kirby Super Star is named as such, but Squeak Squad and Return to Dream Land still use their European names of Mouse Attack and Adventure Wii respectively). Therefore, a differently named re-release isn't grounds to assume that the original got renamed too (since that did happen with Super Star but didn't with Return to Dream Land). In this case, I don't know of any North American sources about Luigi's Mansion 2 HD that directly refer to the original as "Luigi's Mansion 2", with the only source I know of relating to the game that does refer to original by name still calling it "Dark Moon", so there isn't enough evidence here that the original game also got renamed (though to be honest even if there were American sources for "Luigi's Mansion 2" I'm still not sure if that should override the name that the game was actually released under). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:02, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::''Star Allies'' released before ''Return to Dream Land Deluxe'', though, so it's not really a good indicator. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 04:14, July 11, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::Right, but like I mentioned before, European promotional material says that Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe is "a deluxe version of Kirby's Adventure Wii" (quoted from its page on Nintendo eShop). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:17, July 11, 2024 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
@Shy Guy on Wheels there is really nothing stopping people from making a page about other official websites if they have enough unique ''Mario'' content on them. [[SMBPlumbing.com]] is a good example of that. If anything it would be inconsistent if we ''didn't'' cover major websites when there's official ''Mario'' content on them. This proposal specifically targets DOJO because it has a unique name, historical significance, and plenty of content about ''Mario''. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 09:50, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
===Decide how to handle identifiers for non-Mario characters===
Some subjects that pertain to the Mario series share names with characters from outside franchises that have articles here. The wiki's had a bit of an inconsistency in how these characters are identified in article titles, [[Talk:Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf)#Identifier|signalled as far back as when Steve Minecraft was added to Smash Ultimate]]: on the one hand, the character [[Big (character)|Big]] from the ''Sonic'' series uses the "character" identifier, whereas the obstacle from ''Wario Land'' named "[[Big]]" lacks any identifier whatsoever, reason being that the latter pertains to the Mario series (specifically, the Wario branch) and should consequently be prioritized on a wiki titled after Mario; on the other hand, you have the case of [[Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf)|Steve]] from ''[[NES Open Tournament Golf]]'' (a game billed as part of the Mario franchise) using an identifier to separate himself from [[Steve (Minecraft)|Steve]] the Minecraft avatar, who punches Mario in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''. Let's make up our mind on one universal course for all such instances.


This proposal concerns two parties:
@EvieMaybe why are you opposed to covering official ''Mario'' content on the Super Mario Wiki? [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 09:51, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
*one subject that is considered a part of Super Mario or any other franchise that receives full coverage according to the [[MarioWiki:Coverage]] policy; hereafter called "Mario-adjacent";
*any subjects considered a part of franchises outside of the wiki's scope, who share the same name as the aforementioned Mario-adjacent subject and, for one reason or another, have an article or redirect on this wiki.


I chose to consider only one subject on the Mario side because, given two or more Mario-adjacent subjects of the same name, these would already require identifiers as dictated by current policy and thus shouldn't be affected by this proposal's outcome.
@Ahemtoday so, the same as [[SMBPlumbing.com]]? Why should we avoid making a page for a website that contains ''Mario'' content released by Nintendo just because it's related to ''Smash''? [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 09:53, October 16, 2024 (EDT)


With these parties so delineated, I propose three options:
Rescinding my vote because, honestly, having browsed the website quite a bit, I'm left wondering what type of content there justifies treating it as a work separate from the object it promotes, in a way that other promo websites aren't. DOJO is definitely more insightful than your average Nintendo game microsite, doubling as a blog where the director himself spills much ink on ''Brawl''{{'}}s intricacies, but it's not that different in principle--its purpose is still almost solely to give you information on the elements you can expect in a potential future purchase, along with the fringe player-centric content such as fan-submitted snapshots and world records in minigames. Portals like Play Nintendo, SMBPlumbing.com, Welcome to Greedville, and [[The Lab (Flash game)|The Lab]], while indeed also built entirely in service of one or more products, provide experiences in and of themselves, either by being a hub of activities or by supplementing the fiction within said product(s) and therefore expanding Mario's universe (i.e. SMBPlumbing.com is a make-believe business site for the Mario Bros.; of course it would have an article, it's meant to exist within the Mario movie).<br>I understand the... let's say, ''cultural'' importance of Smash Bros. DOJO, that it represented the bells-and-whistles of ''Brawl'' prior to its release, and the fact that it provided direct and constant communication from the game's director, so, yes, it is a ''special'' product in its own way. Heck, the title itself is unique and suggests a departure from the average promo site, as opposed to a more generic "Official Super Smash Bros. Brawl(TM) Website". However, it is also inextricably linked to the game. The best course, IMO, would be to summarize the website in a section of Brawl's article and limit it to that, especially against the backdrop of all these attempts to restrict Smash Bros coverage. To be honest, I think [[Super Mario Maker Bookmark]] deserves more to have an article. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:38, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
*'''Option 1''': Both parties, including the Mario-adjacent party, use an identifier.
:I don't know if the Bookmark site should get a page. There's just nothing to write about, no extra information, just a search and bookmarking function. ''DOJO'', on the other hand, contains news publications. It's not an interactive website, but it doesn't devalue all the posts on it. Anything Nintendo puts out online is inherently an advertising material, but, given that Nintendo published articles on it for a year, it should be covered on this wiki. The opposition has mentioned that this proposal would open a can of worms of its own, namely which websites should we even cover, and I think it needs to be addressed by a different proposal at some point in the future regardless of the outcome of this proposal. But for now, I see no harm in making a page for a website with historical significance, unique name, and ''Mario'' content exclusive to it. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 12:53, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
**Example: Steve (NES Open Tournament Golf) and Steve (Minecraft) retain this naming scheme.
:Koopa con Carne makes a good point. Rescinding my vote as well, but not switching to oppose, as I wouldn't ''really'' mind if we had an article for it anyways. --{{User:OmegaRuby/sig}} 14:13, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
*'''Option 2''': Identifiers are added or omitted depending on how prominent a subject is deemed to be. Use identifier(s) only for the less culturally-prominent subject(s), prioritize the most prominent one.{{footnote|main|*}}
::The fact that not every Mario website gets an article here would be a strong point against DOJO's return. Why should a Smash official site get an article when not every Mario site has one? Not even Nintendo.com has a page here. DOJO has even less Mario content than Brawl itself. And {{iw|smashwiki|Smash Bros. DOJO!! (SSBB)|Smash Wiki}} has an article on it if you want to read it on a wiki. What is even worth having that article here? Is it going to focus on the Mario content, or would it focus on details that were too unnecessary for the Smash Wiki page? Could someone who undeletes pages check what was on the page the proposal is trying to restore? Was the page a stub? How similar was the page to the Smash Wiki page? Well, even if it was a good article, I think we should give all Mario websites pages before we consider crossover websites like the Smash Bros. Dojo pages. Yes, even the Super Mario Wiki should get a page on itself that isn't the [[Main Page]] before we do Smash websites. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 01:55, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
**Example: [[Knuckles (Saturday Supercade)]] is an obscure character from one episode in a very early Donkey Kong show that is currently in large part considered what kids today call "lost media". Contrarily, [[Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog)]] is a significant character from one of the biggest video game franchises on the planet for the past 3 decades. It doesn't matter who is Mario-adjacent or not; the Sonic character is more prominent and would be prioritized by dropping his identifier, while the Saturday Supercade character retains his. The Sonic character will contain an {{tem|about}} tag linking to the Mario-adjacent Knuckles, and if an additional three or more non-prominent things named "Knuckles" surface on the wiki, that "about" tag is superseded by a "Knuckles (disambiguation)" page.{{footnote|main|**}}
:::The quality of the original article is irrelevant, what matters is how much Mario content there is to cover. As I said above, this wiki should have guidelines on website coverage, but it's not for this proposal to decide. And no, this wiki shouldn't cover fan websites. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 03:26, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
*'''Option 3''': Do not use an identifier for the Mario-adjacent party, but use identifier(s) for the outside parties, without respect to how prominent one is over the other.
::::In terms of Mario content, it wouldn't be much. It would be almost like having a page about Smash Wiki focusing on their Mario pages. Except that there's even less Mario content on that than there is on Smash Wiki because it is focused on Brawl which has less Mario stuff than Ultimate. The home page shows a wider version of the game's cover art which has Mario, Wario and Peach on it along with eight non-Mario characters. The character's gallery has only Wario and Diddy Kong out of the twelve characters in the newcomers section; Mario, Bowser, Peach, Donkey Kong and Yoshi out of the thirteen veterans, and the only secret character who is Mario-related is Luigi. The Mario universe doesn't even take up half the roster. Now, let's look at the stages. Delfino Plaza, Yoshi's Island, Rumble Falls, WarioWare Inc.; Mario Circuit and Mushroomy Kingdom are the 6 Mario stages out of the 23 visible stages in the Stages category not counting the links to the two lists of Melee stages. Well, I guess the first part is not much of a list because it only has the Temple from Zelda. But in Melee Stages Part 2, there is Yoshi's Island and Rainbow Cruise as the two Mario stages out of the list of five. Not even half of the stuff on the DOJO is Mario related. I don't see how it could warrant an article when a purely Mario official site like the Super Mario Maker Bookmark doesn't. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:30, October 18, 2024 (EDT)
**Example: [[Ike (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!)]] drops the identifier and takes over the current [[Ike]] disambiguation page because the character comes from a Mario cartoon, while [[Ike (Fire Emblem)]] retains his identifier due to pertaining to the ''Fire Emblem'' games. The Mario-adjacent Ike will contain an "about" tag linking to the Fire Emblem character, and if an additional three or more non-Mario things named "Ike" surface on the wiki, that "about" tag is superseded by an "Ike (disambiguation)" page.{{footnote|main|**}}


In any case, the nature of the identifier(s) and the disambiguations that may result from these changes are subject to current [[MarioWiki:Naming#Shared titles|naming policy]].
For everyone's information, I added a [[Super Smash Bros. Brawl#Smash Bros. DOJO!!|section]] about the site on Brawl's article. I don't believe the outcome of this proposal has any bearing on the manner this subject is currently handled, seeing as the sole goal of the proposal is to give it a separate page. I also disagree with the idea that the site is irrelevant to the wiki, for the simple reason that, much like the game it advertises, it has lots of Mario content on it and is official. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:04, October 18, 2024 (EDT)


{{footnote|note|*|Whether one subject is more prominent over another may be up to editors to decide on case-by-case basis, though the majority of the cases I've seen are pretty cut and dry, like the one related to the two Knuckles. Use common sense.}}
===Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates===
{{footnote|note|**|Per MarioWiki:Naming: "If there are five or more pages sharing the same name, a disambiguation page must be used, although it may be given a "(disambiguation)" qualifier if one of the articles has the plain title."}}
Navigational templates are one of this wiki's best features. They're a really convenient way to get around the wiki. However, one common pitfall of the templates is bloat, in particular in the form of links to subjects that do not have dedicated articles. I have previously made [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/66#Trim Super Smash_Bros. navigational templates|a proposal about this subject]] specifically in the context of the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, but the problem extends to navigational templates across the entire wiki.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
In principle, navigational templates should be '''directories of articles on the wiki'''. What advantage does it give the reader for [[Template:WWMI]] to have a whole section dedicated to eighteen separate links to subsections of [[Form Stones]] on ''top'' of a link to the main article itself? Why does [[Template:Humans]] link to all seven individual members of [[List of show hosts in All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.|List of show hosts in ''All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.'']] individually? Does the already crowded [[Template:Super Mario games]] really need to use precious space on a link to [[List of unreleased media#Tesla Mario Kart game|a two-sentence section]] about a theoretical game that Elon Musk claims to have failed to have pitched to Nintendo?
'''Deadline''': July 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Option 1: Both Mario-adjacent and crossover subjects use identifiers====
I propose that, across the board, '''all subpage and redirect links on all navigational templates should be either removed or replaced'''. (''Red links'' are relatively fine, as long as the things they don't link to theoretically ''should'' be articles that just haven't been made yet. Edge cases like "[[Unnamed Worlds A-C Human]]" should be decided case-by-case in [[Template talk:Humans#Unnamed Worlds A-C Human|the relevant talk pages]].)


====Option 2: Use identifier(s) only for the less culturally-prominent subject(s), prioritize the most prominent one====
'''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br>
#{{User|Hewer}} Per naming policy, "if there is one subject that is clearly more popular than the others, the popular subject will keep the original title while the others use identifiers". I don't see much of a reason to make an exception for crossover characters. Sure, they're not from Mario originally, but they are related to Mario, otherwise they wouldn't be covered here. People who search "Knuckles" are extraordinarily more likely to be looking for the echidna, and they have every reason to be since we give full coverage to the Mario & Sonic series of six games (more if you count the paired releases individually) where he is a fully playable character in every installment, compared to a one-off supporting character in an ancient and highly obscure show that we only cover the DK and DK Jr. segments of. I don't really see why being a non-Mario character by origin is a reason to be excluded from the usual identifier rules, since it doesn't really correlate to the likelihood of them being searched for (which is what identifier rules are based on).
'''Deadline''': October 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per Hewer. If we were to make a ruling for which subject with a shared title has priority as the primary subject, prioritizing subjects based on how often they appear in ''Super Mario''-related media makes more sense than prioritizing subjects based on how closely connected to the greater ''Super Mario'' franchise their origins are.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Hewer and JanMisali.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per Hewer and JanMisali.
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per Hewer and my comment [[Talk:Knuckles#Identifier|here]].
#{{User|Arend}} Personally, I think which subject gets prioritized should be based on in how many (relevant) ''Mario'' titles it has appeared (e.g. Knuckles the Echidna has appeared as a main playable character in a ton of ''Mario & Sonic'' titles, while Knuckles the gangster only appeared in a single ''Saturday Supercade'' episode), but this is close enough.


====Option 3: Use identifiers only for the crossover subjects, prioritize the Mario-adjacent subject====
====Remove the extra links from navigational templates====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per [[Talk:Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog)#Identifier|what I said here]].
#{{User|JanMisali}} As proposer.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'm with Koopa con Carne. It makes sense to give priority to core-franchise characters over off-franchise ones, and I don't see this as anything that well-placed "about" templates can't solve.
#{{User|Hewer}} To be honest, the main reason I'm supporting this is because I hate how cluttered [[Template:Super Mario games]] is with useless links, and this would help solve that problem. We don't need to list every single game to ever have been pitched there.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} I think [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change_full_names_of_crossover_characters_to_the_more_often_used_shortened_versions_in_article_titles|this proposal]] that had use removing the crossover character's surnames was the reason that we're having this problem. And I would like that overturned, especially with other proposals shortening character names failing. And even for crossover characters with just one name that weren't shortened by that proposal, it would be good to have an identifier to distinguish them from Mario subjects. Popularity is subjective. People would come here for information about the Mario games, so Mario subjects should get the simplified names while the crossover subjects should have more specific titles. That way, people looking up obscure Mario characters won't be taken to a Sonic or Smash article.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This makes sense to us. It's much easier to just list a page link once and only once.
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all


====It doesn't matter====
====Do nothing====


====Comments====
====Comments====
For the record, if the "most prominent subject" option passes I'd be interested in generalizing that into a formal policy, replacing the "clearly more popular" clause in [[MarioWiki:NAME]]. "Popularity" is difficult to define and cases where it's "clear" which subject is more popular are somewhat rare, but ''prominence'' is a somewhat more straightforward concept. Neither [[Red (Super Paper Mario)|the ''Super Paper Mario'' character named Red]] nor [[Red (WarioWare series)|the ''WarioWare'' character named Red]] are "clearly more popular" than Red from ''Pokémon'' (who doesn't have a dedicated article, and when he ''did'' it wasn't at "[[Red]]"), but the ''WarioWare'' character ''is'' clearly the most "prominent" in ''Super Mario''-related media of the subjects named "Red" that have dedicated articles. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:12, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
Wait, that ANN thing is a page? I was unaware. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:51, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
:Seems sensible to me. {{User:Pseudo/sig}} 12:19, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
:A page that's linked to on nearly 900 (!!) other pages! But since those links are hidden in a big bloated alphabetical list of characters (only most of which have actual articles), it's not nearly as visible of an article as it otherwise would be. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 19:09, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
:The proposal mentions the concept of prominence in a cultural sense, less so in reference to gameplay or story. Let's say Pokemon Trainer is renamed "Red" in future Smash Bros games and the wiki uses that name on [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]; under option 2 of this proposal, the page [[Red]] (no identifier) would redirect to that character, because he is decidedly so much more culturally significant than anything else on the current disambig for Red (he was the playable avatar in the games that kicked off the biggest media franchise on the planet). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:22, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::When I made that proposal not too long ago on that game, my idea was a page for each since they're all based on real people and look different despite having the same role (like the people in Mario is Missing and the NES Mario's Time Machine). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:13, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
::To be clear, I do think relevance and significance to the Mario franchise should be considered, I just don't think that's as simple as everything that wasn't originally Mario automatically being less significant. Despite Supercade Knuckles being originally Mario, he's ended up less prominent in the franchise than the echidna. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:31, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::That sounds perfectly reasonable. If/when those dedicated articles ''are'' created, then including links to them in Template:Humans would make sense. As it stands now, of course, linking to one list article several times is just messy and unhelpful. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 19:20, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
::Yeah, I suppose that isn't ''exactly'' what I would want, but I do think that's preferable to the alternatives given here at least. Prioritizing ''Super Mario''-ness could run into a different hypothetical future where a ''Mario'' RPG has some key item called a "link" (as in part of a chain), which would mean moving [[Link]] to "Link (character)". Or, in a contrived more extreme example, if a new character named "Wart" is introduced in a ''Mario''-branded game, that would take priority over [[Wart]], a character from ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic|Doki Doki Panic]]'' (which the wiki covers but does not give complete coverage, as the proposal suggests). {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 12:36, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
 
:I've been interpreting "most prominent" here to be used with the same meaning as "most popular" in the naming policy. Regardless of what the literal definitions of the words may be, the point is that the subject without the identifier should be the one people who search the name are most likely to be looking for, hence the policy advises considering which page is more "likely to be linked to or searched for". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:25, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
===Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots===
I want to preface this by saying this proposed change will NOT be a one-person job to go back and change all instances of uploaded images. This will be more a general guideline going forward, and a thing anyone who wants to help can do without feeling like it might be unnecessary or unwanted. If this succeeds, the only immediate change needed to be considered "put into effect" is an edit to the image policy, though there will probably be a lot of quality tags for blatantly off colors.
 
For context of this, the NES and the Japanese FamiCom/Disk System do not have a "native" hard-coded palette. As such, different machines display different colors. However, a ''majority'' of contemporary televisions in the NTSC region (which includes both Japan and America, so where the FamiCom and the NES were initially respectively developed - sorry PAL pals) would display them with a particular muted palette. Many early computer-based emulators instead displayed an extremely bright palette with colors that tended to clash with each other, which is still present on many old images on the site. Even a few today are like that, such as FCEUX, which while great for ripping tiles, has a very odd color display.
 
MESEN and NEStopia are NES emulators that display that more "accurate" (for lack of better term) color. It is widely recommended by sources such as The Spriters Resource and The Cutting Room Floor as a good way to ensure color consistency. Even Nintendo themselves seems to prefer its colors, as official emulators like the Nintendo Switch Online use that type of palette. I think we should start prioritizing it going forward as a general rule so there's more consistency to the uploads color and quality.


@Everyone: Would you consider it relevant if I split option 2 into an option that includes redirects (e.g. [[Ike (Fire Emblem)]]) and one that excludes them? I personally think this action would be more thorough, but I'd like to know your opinions first. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:39, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
For an example of what I am talking about, see the upload history for {{File link|SMB Goomba Sprite.gif}}. A lot of the fixes have already been historically done; I myself worked a lot on the ''Famicom Grand Prix'' and ''Golf'' series images. Most of what's left are random images in larger platforming games as well as assorted more obscure games (looking at you, ''Wario's Woods''), as well as newer uploads from people using older sources without realizing or caring about this issue (which is the main thing this proposal hopes to address).
:I don't think we need to vote on making redirects, they feel like they should generally be a given. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:01, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::I guess my question was poorly formulated. Should redirects to a non-Mario subject be prioritized if the corresponding subject is the most prominent, or not? For instance, the page "Ike", currently a disambig page, would be repurposed to redirect to the Fire Emblem fighter. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:05, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::Generally a subject not even significant enough to have its own page is unlikely to be the one without the identifier, but sure, I say we should continue handling that case-by-case in the same way as with articles. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:15, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::What would be the point of a disambiguation page between two pages, one being a redirect to section on a list page? The [[Ike (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!)|dog]] would be better off as just [[Ike]] with a {{Tem|Distinguish}} template linking to [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Brawl#Ike]]. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 18:42, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::I guess the point would be if we really can't decide which subject should get the identifier, e.g. if they were roughly equal in likelihood of being searched for (but I'm not sure that applies to Ike). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:48, July 7, 2024 (EDT)


@SeanWheeler: Popularity is how we determine what gets identifiers across the whole wiki, and that won't be changed by this proposal - option 2 passing would just make that consistent for crossover subjects as well. The idea that people are automatically less likely to be looking for something on this wiki because it didn't originate from Mario is simply incorrect - we're only covering crossover subjects because of their relevance to the Mario franchise, and I feel like barely anyone searching "Knuckles" is really looking for the Saturday Supercade character rather than the Sonic character. I also disagree that the proposal you link to is relevant to this one, especially since I specifically made it so that no crossover characters would take priority over Mario characters after being told to in the comments and not really thinking to question it at the time. Also, as an aside, I'm unsure what "other proposals shortening character names failing" you're referring to - I can only think of the Koopalings one from a couple years ago, which has since been outnumbered by successful shortenings like [[Professor E. Gadd]], [[Baby DK]], etc. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:48, July 7, 2024 (EDT)
(As a side note, I spent yesterday evening collecting the NEStopia colors for ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' by playing through the whole game and applying them to the pre-existing level maps (which were ripped originally in one of those odd bright emulators), so assistance with applying them to the innumerable screenshots, sprites, and animations for the game would be greatly appreciated.)
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': November 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Supportopia====
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - De vunderbar vald of color. Co''RR''ECT color.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I think utilizing a unified palette is a smart idea. It would look nice, unified, and would mitigate potential confusion as to how colors differ between subjects.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} The weirdly vibrant colors are a rare FCEUX L, as far as we're concerned, and it'd be nice to have some guidelines in place to encourage consistency.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Though my ''Mega Man''-brained self prefers the FCEUX palette in the context of that series due to MisterMike's sprite rips as well as it being the basis of  ''Mega Man 9'' and ''10''{{'}}s palette, this isn't a ''Mega Man'' wiki, so per all.
 
====Opposeux====
 
====Commesents====
[https://tcrf.net/Help:Contents/Taking_Screenshots#NES Here's] the source on The Cutting Room Floor's preference for the MESEN/NEStopia palette, in case anyone needs it. Sorry if it's unnecessary, but I think the claim of the other websites' stances could've had links provided. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 15:47, October 20, 2024 (EDT)
:Thank you, now I can actually use FCEUX without needing to back-and-forth between emulators. Maybe I can get back into ''U.S. Course''{{'}}s prize card again... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:01, October 20, 2024 (EDT)
 
{{@|SolemnStormcloud}} - Not to gossip but FR MisterMike'd be the best NES sprite ripper ever if not for exclusively using FCEUX palette. His ''Zelda'' 1 rips were... eyebrow-raising, to say the least, which is part of what inspired me to prioritize the NEStopia palette. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:58, October 20, 2024 (EDT)
 
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 16:08, October 20, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page

Current time:
Sunday, October 20th, 20:08 GMT

Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • Voting periods last for two weeks.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) two weeks after voting starts (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is two weeks later on Monday, August 15, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use the {{proposal check}} tool to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  11. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks (at the earliest).
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first six days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.


===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 14 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "October 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====


Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. The talk page proposal must pertain to the subject page of the talk page it is posted on.
  4. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

  • Merge Bunker to Lab (Luigi's Mansion 3) (discuss) Deadline: October 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Remove "(series)" identifier from titles that don't need it (discuss) Deadline: October 22, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Merge Spiked Thwomp to Thwomp (discuss) Deadline: October 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Rename or delete X-Ship (discuss) Deadline: October 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Rename or delete Flip-Flop Folk (discuss) Deadline: October 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Split Jet Pipe from the Current article (discuss) Deadline: October 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Add "variant," "variant of," "related," and "comparable" parameters to the item infobox (discuss) Deadline: October 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Split Impostor Bowser from Fake Bowser (discuss) Deadline: October 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT
  • Tone down the scope of the Audience article (discuss) Deadline: November 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the Super Mario Maker games, Super Mario Run, or Super Mario Bros. Wonder
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Tag sections regarding the unofficially named planets/area in Super Mario Galaxy games with "Conjecture" and "Dev data" templates, GuntherBayBeee (ended September 10, 2024)
Create MarioWiki:WikiLove and WikiLove templates, Super Mario RPG (ended September 20, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)
Use the classic and classic-link templates when discussing classic courses in Mario Kart Tour, YoYo (ended October 2, 2024)
Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 3, 2024)
Clarify coverage of the Super Smash Bros. series, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended October 17, 2024)
Cite relevant proposals and discussions on policy pages and guidelines, Koopa con Carne (ended October 17, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)
Merge pages into List of Play Nintendo secret messages, Axii (ended October 4, 2024)
Create Secret exit article, EvieMaybe (ended October 15, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Recreate Smash Bros. DOJO!!

As far as I can tell, this proposal won't contradict the big ongoing proposal. 17 years ago this proposal removed Smash Bros. DOJO!!, an official website for Brawl that contains some cool content about the game. The website is still accessible, which is really surprising for Nintendo. The proposal decided that all website articles should be deleted, something this wiki no longer does (just look at Play Nintendo, Wario's Warehouse, and Nintendo Kids Space). Smash Bros. DOJO!! contains plenty of Mario content (mostly in the form of articles similar to Wario's Warehouse) that should be covered on its own page.

Proposer: Axii (talk)
Deadline: October 22, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Axii (talk) A proposal to reinstate a deleted Smash page, unbelievable
  2. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Tails777 (talk) Per proposal
  4. Camwoodstock (talk) We're surprised this was deleted given we're currently the last line of defense for Wario's Warehouse nowadays--talk about a change of heart! We wouldn't be opposed to greater documentation of Nintendo's promotional websites, frankly, and this'd be a good starting point for that. Smash DOJO is one of the most famous examples of one of these promotional sites, and while we are a little shaky given it's Smash and not Mario outright, there's nothing preventing us from doing something similar for more Mario-related websites down the road.
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.

#Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal.

#OmegaRuby (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. Ahemtoday (talk) The Dojo is the same as the Smash 4 or Ultimate websites — all three of them, like most official video game websites, are basically advertisements for their respective games. We're not the Smash Wiki — I see zero need for our coverage of the Smash series to go so deep as to begin to cover its promotional material.
  2. EvieMaybe (talk) we don't need to keep eating smashwiki's lunch. if there's enough exclusively mario-centric content to warrant making a page out of, i'll change my vote, but for now i'm firmly on the camp of "smash stuff is not mario stuff"
  3. SeanWheeler (talk) If we have the official website for Brawl, will we create pages on the Smash 4 and Ultimate websites, the SmashBoards forums and every website Smash Wiki has?
  4. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) Smash Bros. DOJO!! is the website for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and I don't know of any instances of this wiki actually making a page for a game's official website, so this would just be incosistent. I'm fine with the general idea of covering the posts on the website, but this would also be inconsistent as neither the posts on the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate website, or Super Smash Bros. 4's "pic of the day" series, have pages here. I want to stress that I don't take issue with either of these concepts as a whole, I'm just not a fan of making a change to create an article on this one topic, and would prefer a bigger proposal that allows coverage of similar topics as well.
  5. Mario (talk) Not relevant to MarioWiki's goals.
  6. Sparks (talk) Per all.

Comments

I'd suggest that the website's (textual) contents not be entirely copied and pasted here, though. I understand why this was done with Wario's Warehouse, as that site pretty much disappeared without a trace, but Smash DOJO's still officially up and has been backed up on Internet Archive (thank god Wayback Machine's at least read-only now). I envision its wiki article having a summary of each section of the site and a list of blog posts with relevant links for each section. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:22, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

Unless Nintendo takes it down, that's the plan. Axii (talk) 14:29, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

"We wouldn't be opposed to greater documentation of Nintendo's promotional websites, frankly, and this'd be a good starting point for that."
Play Nintendo, Nintendo Kids Space, SMBPlumbing.com, and Welcome to Greedville are a joke to you??? :'((( -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:47, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

We know this was probably a goof, but honestly, those articles are a very nice basis for what we're talking about! We mostly mean we could also add stuff like the old flash-based NSMB website that had a boatload of downloadables and even hints for the game itself (the former have an incomplete list on that game's gallery, the latter seem to be entirely AWOL), or maybe even stuff like the Japanese Paper Mario site that had pre-created lists of badge setups for the player to try out, complete with descriptions of their strategies. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:55, October 15, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler why are you implying fan websites would get covered? This is not Smash wiki. This is a Mario wiki that should cover everything Mario, and Smash Bros. DOJO!! contains just that. Official Mario content published by Nintendo. Axii (talk) 02:25, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Shy Guy on Wheels there is really nothing stopping people from making a page about other official websites if they have enough unique Mario content on them. SMBPlumbing.com is a good example of that. If anything it would be inconsistent if we didn't cover major websites when there's official Mario content on them. This proposal specifically targets DOJO because it has a unique name, historical significance, and plenty of content about Mario. Axii (talk) 09:50, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

@EvieMaybe why are you opposed to covering official Mario content on the Super Mario Wiki? Axii (talk) 09:51, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

@Ahemtoday so, the same as SMBPlumbing.com? Why should we avoid making a page for a website that contains Mario content released by Nintendo just because it's related to Smash? Axii (talk) 09:53, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

Rescinding my vote because, honestly, having browsed the website quite a bit, I'm left wondering what type of content there justifies treating it as a work separate from the object it promotes, in a way that other promo websites aren't. DOJO is definitely more insightful than your average Nintendo game microsite, doubling as a blog where the director himself spills much ink on Brawl's intricacies, but it's not that different in principle--its purpose is still almost solely to give you information on the elements you can expect in a potential future purchase, along with the fringe player-centric content such as fan-submitted snapshots and world records in minigames. Portals like Play Nintendo, SMBPlumbing.com, Welcome to Greedville, and The Lab, while indeed also built entirely in service of one or more products, provide experiences in and of themselves, either by being a hub of activities or by supplementing the fiction within said product(s) and therefore expanding Mario's universe (i.e. SMBPlumbing.com is a make-believe business site for the Mario Bros.; of course it would have an article, it's meant to exist within the Mario movie).
I understand the... let's say, cultural importance of Smash Bros. DOJO, that it represented the bells-and-whistles of Brawl prior to its release, and the fact that it provided direct and constant communication from the game's director, so, yes, it is a special product in its own way. Heck, the title itself is unique and suggests a departure from the average promo site, as opposed to a more generic "Official Super Smash Bros. Brawl(TM) Website". However, it is also inextricably linked to the game. The best course, IMO, would be to summarize the website in a section of Brawl's article and limit it to that, especially against the backdrop of all these attempts to restrict Smash Bros coverage. To be honest, I think Super Mario Maker Bookmark deserves more to have an article. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:38, October 16, 2024 (EDT)

I don't know if the Bookmark site should get a page. There's just nothing to write about, no extra information, just a search and bookmarking function. DOJO, on the other hand, contains news publications. It's not an interactive website, but it doesn't devalue all the posts on it. Anything Nintendo puts out online is inherently an advertising material, but, given that Nintendo published articles on it for a year, it should be covered on this wiki. The opposition has mentioned that this proposal would open a can of worms of its own, namely which websites should we even cover, and I think it needs to be addressed by a different proposal at some point in the future regardless of the outcome of this proposal. But for now, I see no harm in making a page for a website with historical significance, unique name, and Mario content exclusive to it. Axii (talk) 12:53, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
Koopa con Carne makes a good point. Rescinding my vote as well, but not switching to oppose, as I wouldn't really mind if we had an article for it anyways. --Poltergust 3000 It's OmegaRuby's birth month! [ Talk / Contribs ] 14:13, October 16, 2024 (EDT)
The fact that not every Mario website gets an article here would be a strong point against DOJO's return. Why should a Smash official site get an article when not every Mario site has one? Not even Nintendo.com has a page here. DOJO has even less Mario content than Brawl itself. And Smash Wiki has an article on it if you want to read it on a wiki. What is even worth having that article here? Is it going to focus on the Mario content, or would it focus on details that were too unnecessary for the Smash Wiki page? Could someone who undeletes pages check what was on the page the proposal is trying to restore? Was the page a stub? How similar was the page to the Smash Wiki page? Well, even if it was a good article, I think we should give all Mario websites pages before we consider crossover websites like the Smash Bros. Dojo pages. Yes, even the Super Mario Wiki should get a page on itself that isn't the Main Page before we do Smash websites. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:55, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
The quality of the original article is irrelevant, what matters is how much Mario content there is to cover. As I said above, this wiki should have guidelines on website coverage, but it's not for this proposal to decide. And no, this wiki shouldn't cover fan websites. Axii (talk) 03:26, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
In terms of Mario content, it wouldn't be much. It would be almost like having a page about Smash Wiki focusing on their Mario pages. Except that there's even less Mario content on that than there is on Smash Wiki because it is focused on Brawl which has less Mario stuff than Ultimate. The home page shows a wider version of the game's cover art which has Mario, Wario and Peach on it along with eight non-Mario characters. The character's gallery has only Wario and Diddy Kong out of the twelve characters in the newcomers section; Mario, Bowser, Peach, Donkey Kong and Yoshi out of the thirteen veterans, and the only secret character who is Mario-related is Luigi. The Mario universe doesn't even take up half the roster. Now, let's look at the stages. Delfino Plaza, Yoshi's Island, Rumble Falls, WarioWare Inc.; Mario Circuit and Mushroomy Kingdom are the 6 Mario stages out of the 23 visible stages in the Stages category not counting the links to the two lists of Melee stages. Well, I guess the first part is not much of a list because it only has the Temple from Zelda. But in Melee Stages Part 2, there is Yoshi's Island and Rainbow Cruise as the two Mario stages out of the list of five. Not even half of the stuff on the DOJO is Mario related. I don't see how it could warrant an article when a purely Mario official site like the Super Mario Maker Bookmark doesn't. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:30, October 18, 2024 (EDT)

For everyone's information, I added a section about the site on Brawl's article. I don't believe the outcome of this proposal has any bearing on the manner this subject is currently handled, seeing as the sole goal of the proposal is to give it a separate page. I also disagree with the idea that the site is irrelevant to the wiki, for the simple reason that, much like the game it advertises, it has lots of Mario content on it and is official. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:04, October 18, 2024 (EDT)

Remove all subpage and redirect links from all navigational templates

Navigational templates are one of this wiki's best features. They're a really convenient way to get around the wiki. However, one common pitfall of the templates is bloat, in particular in the form of links to subjects that do not have dedicated articles. I have previously made a proposal about this subject specifically in the context of the Super Smash Bros. series, but the problem extends to navigational templates across the entire wiki.

In principle, navigational templates should be directories of articles on the wiki. What advantage does it give the reader for Template:WWMI to have a whole section dedicated to eighteen separate links to subsections of Form Stones on top of a link to the main article itself? Why does Template:Humans link to all seven individual members of List of show hosts in All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros. individually? Does the already crowded Template:Super Mario games really need to use precious space on a link to a two-sentence section about a theoretical game that Elon Musk claims to have failed to have pitched to Nintendo?

I propose that, across the board, all subpage and redirect links on all navigational templates should be either removed or replaced. (Red links are relatively fine, as long as the things they don't link to theoretically should be articles that just haven't been made yet. Edge cases like "Unnamed Worlds A-C Human" should be decided case-by-case in the relevant talk pages.)

Proposer: JanMisali (talk)
Deadline: October 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Remove the extra links from navigational templates

  1. JanMisali (talk) As proposer.
  2. Hewer (talk) To be honest, the main reason I'm supporting this is because I hate how cluttered Template:Super Mario games is with useless links, and this would help solve that problem. We don't need to list every single game to ever have been pitched there.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) This makes sense to us. It's much easier to just list a page link once and only once.
  4. OmegaRuby (talk) Per all.
  5. EvieMaybe (talk) per all

Do nothing

Comments

Wait, that ANN thing is a page? I was unaware. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:51, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

A page that's linked to on nearly 900 (!!) other pages! But since those links are hidden in a big bloated alphabetical list of characters (only most of which have actual articles), it's not nearly as visible of an article as it otherwise would be. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 19:09, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
When I made that proposal not too long ago on that game, my idea was a page for each since they're all based on real people and look different despite having the same role (like the people in Mario is Missing and the NES Mario's Time Machine). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:13, October 17, 2024 (EDT)
That sounds perfectly reasonable. If/when those dedicated articles are created, then including links to them in Template:Humans would make sense. As it stands now, of course, linking to one list article several times is just messy and unhelpful. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 19:20, October 17, 2024 (EDT)

Prioritize MESEN/NEStopia palette for NES sprites and screenshots

I want to preface this by saying this proposed change will NOT be a one-person job to go back and change all instances of uploaded images. This will be more a general guideline going forward, and a thing anyone who wants to help can do without feeling like it might be unnecessary or unwanted. If this succeeds, the only immediate change needed to be considered "put into effect" is an edit to the image policy, though there will probably be a lot of quality tags for blatantly off colors.

For context of this, the NES and the Japanese FamiCom/Disk System do not have a "native" hard-coded palette. As such, different machines display different colors. However, a majority of contemporary televisions in the NTSC region (which includes both Japan and America, so where the FamiCom and the NES were initially respectively developed - sorry PAL pals) would display them with a particular muted palette. Many early computer-based emulators instead displayed an extremely bright palette with colors that tended to clash with each other, which is still present on many old images on the site. Even a few today are like that, such as FCEUX, which while great for ripping tiles, has a very odd color display.

MESEN and NEStopia are NES emulators that display that more "accurate" (for lack of better term) color. It is widely recommended by sources such as The Spriters Resource and The Cutting Room Floor as a good way to ensure color consistency. Even Nintendo themselves seems to prefer its colors, as official emulators like the Nintendo Switch Online use that type of palette. I think we should start prioritizing it going forward as a general rule so there's more consistency to the uploads color and quality.

For an example of what I am talking about, see the upload history for File:SMB Goomba Sprite.gifMedia:SMB Goomba Sprite.gif. A lot of the fixes have already been historically done; I myself worked a lot on the Famicom Grand Prix and Golf series images. Most of what's left are random images in larger platforming games as well as assorted more obscure games (looking at you, Wario's Woods), as well as newer uploads from people using older sources without realizing or caring about this issue (which is the main thing this proposal hopes to address).

(As a side note, I spent yesterday evening collecting the NEStopia colors for Super Mario Bros. 2 by playing through the whole game and applying them to the pre-existing level maps (which were ripped originally in one of those odd bright emulators), so assistance with applying them to the innumerable screenshots, sprites, and animations for the game would be greatly appreciated.)

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: November 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Supportopia

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - De vunderbar vald of color. CoRRECT color.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) I think utilizing a unified palette is a smart idea. It would look nice, unified, and would mitigate potential confusion as to how colors differ between subjects.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) The weirdly vibrant colors are a rare FCEUX L, as far as we're concerned, and it'd be nice to have some guidelines in place to encourage consistency.
  4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Though my Mega Man-brained self prefers the FCEUX palette in the context of that series due to MisterMike's sprite rips as well as it being the basis of Mega Man 9 and 10's palette, this isn't a Mega Man wiki, so per all.

Opposeux

Commesents

Here's the source on The Cutting Room Floor's preference for the MESEN/NEStopia palette, in case anyone needs it. Sorry if it's unnecessary, but I think the claim of the other websites' stances could've had links provided. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 15:47, October 20, 2024 (EDT)

Thank you, now I can actually use FCEUX without needing to back-and-forth between emulators. Maybe I can get back into U.S. Course's prize card again... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:01, October 20, 2024 (EDT)

@SolemnStormcloud - Not to gossip but FR MisterMike'd be the best NES sprite ripper ever if not for exclusively using FCEUX palette. His Zelda 1 rips were... eyebrow-raising, to say the least, which is part of what inspired me to prioritize the NEStopia palette. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:58, October 20, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.