MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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{{MarioWiki:Proposals/Header}}
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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
===Figure out how to handle <nowiki>{{classic}} and {{classic-link}}</nowiki> templates when discussing ''Mario Kart Tour'' classic courses===
This wiki has two templates used to format classic courses in the ''Mario Kart'' series: <nowiki>{{classic}} and {{classic-link}}</nowiki>. These templates convert text like "3DS Shy Guy Bazaar" into a format that closer resembles the one seen in games, with the prefix being written as such, a prefix, and not part of the courses name. So "3DS Shy Guy Bazaar" becomes "{{classic|3DS|Shy Guy Bazaar}}". However, there's an exception this wiki seems to have regarding this template: classic courses in ''[[Mario Kart Tour]]''.
 
This is because the game does not structure the title of courses in such a way: instead it writes the prefix as large as the rest of the name, so it's written as "3DS Shy Guy Bazaar". However, I feel this creates a lot of inconsistency and confusion here on this wiki. For example, the page for a course like [[3DS Rock Rock Mountain]], a course featured as a classic in and out of ''Tour'' structures fellow course names both ways, with and without the template, simply because of the game the classic course appears in. To make things more confusing, when a ''Tour'' section on a course's page discusses classic courses outside of ''Tour'', it uses the template, as seen in a few course pages. Additionally, page titles for courses that are only classics in ''Tour'' still use a smaller font for the page name, such as [[GBA Lakeside Park]]. Finally, some courses in ''Tour'' don't even adhere to this rule that has been enforced before, such as [[Wii Maple Treeway]].
 
(I cannot find the edit log, however I was informed by a moderator here that it is a rule that is enforced a while back)
 
So this proposal is asking for one thing: an enforcement to be decided on.
 
The options are simple:
*Use the templates for all references to classic courses.
*Not use the template when referring to classic courses in ''Tour''.
 
RMX courses will not be affected by this since the "RMX" is established to be part of the course's name.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|YoYo}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT
 
====Use the templates for all classic course links====
#{{User|YoYo}} per my proposal, I think that the template formats them in a way that distinguishes the prefix from course name, and I think consistency is important here.
#{{User|Tails777}} I really don't think we need to be ''that'' accurate with the way things are written. Just because ''Tour''  doesn't have the system prefixes in a slightly smaller font, doesn't mean we have to follow in suit. Heck, when I removed some images from infoboxes and put them in respective sections, I kept using the <nowiki>{{classic}}</nowiki> templates regardless of which game section they were in. Why would the size of the font be that big of a deal? I think using the template for all classic courses is just the way to go.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I think being accurate to the text size parts of a name are written with is different from being accurate to the name itself — and I find the former kind of unnecessary.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} We should be consistent.
 
====Do not use the templates for ''Mario Kart Tour'' classic course links====
 
====Comments====


==New features==
==New features==
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==Removals==
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''
==Changes==
==Changes==
===Create ''Mario Kart'' course redirects with game prefixes for recurring track names===
=== Split articles for certain official single-game enemy behavior splits ===
In case the title wasn't clear, I'm referring to making redirects like {{fake link|GBA Rainbow Road}}, {{fake link|DS Mario Circuit}}, and {{fake link|Wii Bowser's Castle}}. My argument for doing this is simple: '''I think it would be both useful and in line with our redirect policy.'''
In the early days, before Nintendo was really sure how they wanted to classify enemies, there were some splits that didn't stick - namely, behaviors that were initially unique to a specific subtype, and then became normal alternatives to the base enemies. I'm specifically talking about:
*'''Sky Blooper''' - [[Blooper]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels''
*'''Upside-down Buzzy Beetle''' - [[Buzzy Beetle]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*'''Upside-down Spiny''' - [[Spiny]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*'''Scattering Blooper''' - [[Blooper Nanny]] variant from ''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*'''Upside-down Piranha''' - [[Piranha Plant]] variant from ''Super Mario Land''
 
I make this mainly because [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/smb2/?lang=en the] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/smb3/?lang=en Mario] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/archives/land/?lang=en Portal] splits each of these for these games specifically, across language borders, despite being a newer source (which is notably a lot more than Boss Bass/Big Bertha gets, so that merge remains correct), along with Upside-down Piranha making the ''Smash Bros.'' Piranha Plant list; other instances of similar things occurring that have not (yet) been corroborated by a source like Portal (such as ''[[Cheep Cheep|Tobipuku]]'' from ''New Super Mario Bros.'') will not be counted. Now, I want to clarify something important: '''this split only covers the appearances where the official word treats them as distinct enemies.''' Random upside-down Buzzy Beetles and Piranha Plants in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' are not counted, as they are not distinguished from their base species in any way in that game. I see this as similar to [[Fire Nipper Plant]], another SMB3 enemy whose fire-breathing characteristics were given to normal [[Nipper Plant]]s in a few later games.
 
I have a demo for these pages in the various sections of [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Early merges|this]] page, along with stuff for the below proposal.
 
EDIT 9/28: Adding an option for only splitting the two Bloopers.


For my first point: Series convention has people referring to these tracks this way even outside of official contexts, and people aren't going to take the time to think about whether a certain course came back before typing it into the search box. Heck, even I, whose editing hangout spots include not [[Classic course#Table of classic race courses|one]] but ''[[Mario Kart (series)#List of console and mobile game courses|two]]'' lists of which courses appear in which games, find myself sooner typing "DS Bowser's Castle" into the search bar than "Bowser Castle (Mario Kart DS)", if only because one is shorter.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT


I do not believe these would be in violation of [[MarioWiki:Redirects|our redirect policy]], as these names are neither silly (being an extension of series convention) nor ambiguous (there's only one course "Wii Mario Circuit" could be referring to). These are really the only criteria they need to meet, as the policy is otherwise very encouraging of redirects.
====Scattering Support====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.


Now, my initial proposal was to do this for all unprefixed courses with recurring names, not counting MK8 or spinoffs since we don't know for sure what their prefixes would be. This results in this list:
====Bloopers only, no upside-down!====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I see no problem with this. Unlike the other proposed splits, normal Bloopers have not inherited the defining airborne traits of Sky Bloopers outside of the ''Super Mario Maker'' games, which breaks a lot of conventions for the sake of fun creative gameplay. I do not think it is the same situation as Upside-down Piranha Plant or Spiny.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Agreed.
#{{User|Hewer}} Blooper proposal
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} If [[Super Blooper (boss)|this Blooper]] can be split, then so can the ones listed here. On the other hand, the upside-down variants are splitting hairs. Do we split [https://youtu.be/G-JHFcn3qWs?t=58 the Goombas from anti-gravity sections] just because they're upside down?
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Second pick, per all.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all.


*{{fake link|GBA Bowser's Castle 4}}
====Upside-down Oppose====
*{{fake link|GCN Bowser's Castle}}
#{{User|Arend}} ''Maybe'' a case could be made for Scattering Blooper, but Sky Blooper and Upside-down Piranha Plant also behave (nearly) identical to their regular counterparts. Not to mention that nearly all the regular versions of these enemies have retroactively gained attributes of these enemies too (Buzzy Beetles and Spinies can appear commonly walking on ceilings and dropping down in various games, Piranha Plants can pop out upside down from a ceiling pipe in various games, nearly all Bloopers encountered on land float above the ground; none of these are regarded as distinct variants in those later games), so it's a little weird to me if only those specific versions of enemies are regarded as separate entities but regular versions of these enemies adapting these attributes aren't; feels inconsistent and confusing for a reader.
*{{fake link|GCN Rainbow Road}}
#{{User|Axii}} Per Arend. I feel like it would be an unnecessary split. Nintendo doesn't refer to these enemies separately in any newer games. Sky Blooper may have had a chance, but ''Super Mario Maker'' clearly shows that they are just regular Bloopers. I can see Scattering Blooper being split in the future though.
*{{fake link|DS Mario Circuit}}
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per opposition.
*{{fake link|DS Bowser's Castle}}
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
*{{fake link|DS Rainbow Road}}
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} i can see the case for scattering blooper and MAYBE sky blooper, but i don't think i agree with the philosophy behind the proposal.
*{{fake link|Wii Luigi Circuit}}
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} The idea of splitting certain minor behavior differences in enemies, but ''only'' in certain games where they are given a specific adjective relating to the thing they do, honestly just sounds ridiculous. If you're going to split some of them, you might as well split all of them, lest you create a glaring inconsistency in the wiki's coverage of these enemy variants.<br>Also keep in mind that these individual acknowledgements of upside-down enemies aren't consistent even between these similar-era games; Piranha Plants can be found upside-down as early as ''[[Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels|The Lost Levels]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]'', yet would be confusingly absent from your proposed "Upside-down Piranha Plant" article due to not being called "Upside-down Piranha Plants" (and also kind of throws a wrench into your theory that these were originally special variants before being merged into the main enemy). These upside-down enemies are only listed on ''Mario Portal'' when the game's respective manual also mentions them (with apparently a single exception in SMB3's Upside-down Spiny), suggesting less of a confirmation as species and more of an attempt to parallel existing material.<br>The only potential exceptions I see here are the Bloopers, particularly the Sky Blooper with its actually distinct appearance. Though, if the red Koopa Troopa, an enemy that has had consistently has a different appearance and behavior from its green counterpart in all mainline games it has appeared in (the black-and-white SML2 with only the ledge-fearing green Koopa doesn't count due to there being no red Koopa to compare with), [[Talk:Koopa_Troopa#Split_Red_Koopa_Troopa_and_Green_Koopa_Troopa|is too minor a difference to get an article]], then how are these any different?
*{{fake link|Wii Mario Circuit}}
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
*{{fake link|Wii Bowser's Castle}}
#{{User|Mario}} Some of these proposed splits are overkill.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per all.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Split enemies for one game each? Not unless we split everybody into singular game subpages like [[smashwiki:Mario (SSBB)|Smash Wiki's fighter pages]].
<s>#{{User|Hewer}} Not opposed to all of these (I'd probably support splitting Sky Blooper), but while I do generally like following official classification of things, having an article for Buzzy Beetles that were upside down in SMB3 specifically and no other game just feels silly and confusing.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all.</s>


It seems a bit excessive to me, but I realized while writing this that I may want to include an option to do this for ''every'' course (aside from MK8 and spinoffs), so I'm also including that as an option.
====Sky Comments====
I understand the rationale, but Mario Portal (and most game material) also recognizes things like green-shelled and red-shelled Koopas as distinct from one another and they also have different behaviors from one another. That'd probably be a bigger proposal than you'd be interested in executing, but how would you feel on those types of enemies being split? I at least like the idea of Sky Blooper getting its own article on the face of it. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:27, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
:Those shouldn't be by virtue of the functional distinctions being inconsistent, especially when you get into things like Shy Guys. Most of them use (identifiers) too rather than actual naming differences. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
::Fair (especially for Shy Guys), though generally, I'm pretty sure red-shelled Koopas mechanically are always the ones that turn when they reach an edge, whereas green-shelled ones don't.
::What if, for those enemies, there was a similar scenario as with [[Koopa Shell]]s, where there is one main article, but also smaller ones for [[Green Shell]]s and [[Red Shell]]s for scenarios where the shells have mechanical differences? We could have a main [[Koopa Troopa]] article, and then a Koopa Troopa (Green) and Koopa Troopa (Red). - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 23:50, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
:::You're only looking in terms of 2D platformers, there. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:02, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
::::(I hope this is isn't too tangential - I appreciate your insight on this) I think the only 3D platformer with both Koopa Troopas is Super Mario Galaxy, and they still have mechanical differences from one another in those games.
::::For platformers and spin-offs where colors are only cosmetic, I think it would be fine for them to share a single Koopa Troopa article (again, similar setup to Koopa Shell). But I understand the resistance to that idea, because it could be messy and difficult to curate. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 00:09, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
:::::And there's the black-and-white ''Super Mario Land 2'', where the art shows green, but the behavior's more like typical red ones. Then we get into Paratroopas, where originally green hopped or moved back-and-forth and red moved up-and-down, then games like ''Super Mario World'' have red ones moving horizontally or green ones moving vertically. And then there's Cheep Cheep - swimming Cheep Cheeps' colors in SMB1 were purely cosmetic, then SMB3 had lots of behavioral variation among red-colored ones and only one behavior for green-colored ones. I think keeping the "color" ones grouped unless a very notable difference is present (like the ''Paper Mario'' and ''Yoshi's Story'' versions of [[Black Shy Guy]]) is the best way to go in that regard. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:23, September 26, 2024 (EDT)


'''''DOUBLE EDIT: I've changed the second option to be what the edited-in third option was, since I didn't realize I was leaving Tour out when I first made it. I am sorry if this causes confusion.'''''
@Opposition I see this as a similar case to [[Gloomba]] only covering the blue underground Goombas when they are officially split, or [[Headbonk Goomba]] only covering headbonking Goombas when ''they'' are officially split. Same for the large-sized Chain Chomps and Wigglers sometimes being considered "big" versions and sometimes considered standard. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:09, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
:I see those as a bit different since they have functional or other differences specific to those games, blue Goombas aren't normally stronger than the standard versions. As far as I can tell, the only way Upside-down Buzzy Beetle is more of a variant in SMB3 than it is any other game is in name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:52, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
::The fact that Portal, which is recent, bothers to split them for those games specifically rather than ignore it in favor of following what later games do makes me think this is still valid. Especially since Upside-Down Piranhas were also differentiated in Viridi's Piranha Plant list in ''Smash Ultimate''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:09, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::Technically, do we know whether Viridi was referring to specifically upside-down Piranha Plants from Super Mario Land, rather than just upside-down ones in general? Not sure if it's different in Japanese, but their placement in the list is notably odd especially if it was meant to be referring to just Mario Land, as they are the last variant listed before the three Petey Piranhas, rather than the roughly release date order the list mostly uses. As for Mario Portal, Nintendo101's point about red and green Koopa Troopas compels me to ignore that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:12, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
::::They're the only ones that are named as such, so yes. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:36, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Uhhh, I'd find sources other than Super Mario Land and the Mario Portal before I confidently make claims like that. Personally, I doubt that these games are the only instances in which the Japanese word for "upside-down" immediately precedes the name of an enemy that happens to be upside-down. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 01:46, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Treating it as a label, there are none. Prose, perhaps, but not as a deliberate label. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:03, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Again, sources???? The only evidence I could find vaguely supporting you (for the Piranha Plant in ''Lost Levels'' at least) is in a scan of the Japanese Super Mario All-Stars guide, which is after you claim they dropped the concept. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:47, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::What Portal is doing is enough, IMO. It shows their "current interpretation" is that they are different enough for a separate listing (without the parentheses, even) specifically in the respective games I listed, but not elsewhere. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:42, September 28, 2024 (EDT)


'''Proposer''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
{{@|DrippingYellow}} - Technically, only the Upside-Down Piranha Plants in SML have the point bonus, which is part of how the game defines its enemies. Also, that "paralleling existing material" also doesn't split color, so this doesn't seem inconsistent to me. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:36, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': January 27, 2023, 23:59 GMT
:...Are you seriously trying to argue that the ''point value'' of the enemy is the clincher here? As though enemies are supposed to stay exactly the same with no changes between games? Maybe the developers of SML thought you deserved more of a reward for landing a Superball shot on these upside-down enemies, but how does that specifically support them being considered a unique variant of Piranha Plant in only Super Mario Land? And sure, they called the red Koopa Troopas "Koopa Troopa (Red)" or whatever instead of "Red Koopa Troopa", but simply having a unique name is not the end-all be-all of whether something gets an article or not ([[Black Shy Guy (Yoshi's Story)]], the countless articles that we had to give a conjectural name, to name a few).<br>The problem is simply that versions of enemies that are visually idential and behaviorally similar to their normal counterpart usually don't get split, regardless of whether they have a unique name or not. And somehow, what you're proposing is even more bizarre than that; that these specific enemies in these specific games are Upside-down with a capital "U", and should be split, and the others, lowercase "u", with the ''exact same behavior, attributes, and appearance'', should not. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 01:46, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
::I see this as equivalent to [[Fire Nipper Plant]], which only appeared once in SMB3, and later RPGs gave normal Nipper Plants identical fire breath abilities. And the point value is a notable difference in function. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:03, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:::Even if these truly are separate listed enemies in only these specific games, this is more like the Grinder/Ukiki situation if anything; two completely different enemies from different series that were eventually merged, and we treat them as the same thing. No "Grinder" article that only covers the monkeys in the ''Yoshi's Island'' games and not ''Wooly World''. This situation is even simpler than that debacle if you ask me, as we know exactly what to look for in terms of defining traits (that is, they are upside-down). See also: the [[Helper Monkey]] article, with all of the uniquely-named-in-Japan variants merged together for the sake of simplicity. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:47, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
::::The monkeys are mainly a snarl because YNI used both (O-saru-san in-game for a level name, Ucky in the guidebook), but in that case the "two separate enemies" weren't in a single game alongside each-other separately, so that situation is still different. There's also a reverse situation related to that, where Big Cheep Cheep lost its funny big mouth and its original design was eventually given to its derivative Cheep Chomp (in the same game that gave Grinder's design to Ukiki). Now, I do ''get'' where you're coming from, but I find this situation clean enough to enact this. Meanwhile, on the [https://triforcewiki.com/ Triforce Wiki], I list both of the "Zora" designs together, while Nintendo back-and-forths on whether they're different, the same, or different-looking clans of the same species (which as of ''Echoes of Wisdom'', is their current depiction) - I find that to be too much confusing mingling to bother attempting to split it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:45, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
::I will say, Nintendo is inconsistent with whether they list colored variants as separate subjects or lumped together, but in the modern era (the mid-2010s onward), they generally do if there are mechanical differences between them. For example, the ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'' and Mario Portal list red and green Koopa Troopas separately for every game where they both appear (as well as yellow and blue ones in ''Super Mario World''), as well as the [https://ninten-switch.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/supar-mario-bros-wonder-for-nintendo-switch-kanzepki-guidebook-hanbai3.jpg Kadokawa guidebook for ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'']. They do not do this for enemies that appear in multiple colors but have no mechanical differences between them, like [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/3d_world/index.html Biddybuds, Para-Biddybuds, or Lava Bubbles in ''Super Mario 3D World''] (of note, they do recognize blue and red Lava Bubbles separately [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/galaxy2/index.html in ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''], where they do have mechanical and behavioral differences with each other. I should also note that I have seen ''Super Mario 3D Land'' Biddybud figures sold with color denotations in their listed names in Japan, but it makes sense to do that for physical merchandise).
::I do not know the best approach for Super Mario Wiki. My gut feeling is that it would be best to stick to the systematics employed by the source material, and if that material is listing enemies separately by behavior or color or size, then it is not inherently unreasonable for them to get a dedicated article. What constitutes an "enemy" is not innate - it does not necessarily mean they are members of different species or anything like that (as apparent with [[Giant Goomba]]s, which can split into [[Hefty Goomba]]s, then normal [[Goomba]]s, indicating all Goombas have the capacity to mature into Giant Goombas and would be members of the same exact species, but they are not the same enemy). But our source material is inconsistent and fluid, adjusting based on the specific functions of individual games, as is the case with Lava Bubbles in SMG2 and SM3DW. They have flipflopped with whether they recognize different colors as separate enemies or the same ones (such as [https://imgur.com/32lQKbm here, in the bestiary for ''New Super Mario Bros.'' from 2006 that lumps Koopa Troopas together]) but they are also inconsistent in contemporary sources. In the encyclopedia, [[Big Deep Cheep]] is listed as a distinct enemy in the first ''New Super Mario Bros.'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'' - it is lumped with the [[Deep Cheep|smaller one]] in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' even though it has not undergone any behavioral changes, and this is in the same book. [[Dragoneel]]s are lumped as one enemy in the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' section, even though there are fast, extremely long red Dragoneels and stout, slow-moving blue Dragoneels, which seems as valid a distinction as green and red Koopa Troopas. In the Kadokawa ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' excerpt I linked to above, it recognizes Red Koopa Troopas and Red Koopa Paratroopas as separate enemies from the green ones, but it lists brown and purple [[Trompette]]s as one enemy, as well as yellow and blue [[Konk]]s. This is despite the fact that the difference between the brown and purple Trombettes is that the latter turns around when it reaches the edge of a platform... just like red Koopa Troopas in the same game. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 13:18, September 28, 2024 (EDT)


====Create the redirects listed above====
{{@|ThePowerPlayer}} - Well those aren't given a different name, especially not in a consistent manner across multiple sources, which was the crux here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:37, September 29, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
 
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice.
@SeanWheeler: What? The proposal is about splitting particular enemy variants. It has nothing to do with what you said. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:24, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
 
=== Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from ''All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.'' ===
''[[All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.]]'' has various alternatively named graphic swaps of things from ''Super Mario Bros.'', most of which relate to the cast and iconography of the show it is based on. These include:
*OkaP and Pakkun OkaP replacing Goomba and Piranha Plant ([[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Early merges|split demoed here]] alongside stuff from the above proposal
*The ''Hiranya'' replacing the Star
*The various celebrities replacing the Toads (though admittedly the bonus one is unknown)


====Create these redirects for every course (aside from MK8, Arcade GP, and Home Circuit)====
These are meant to be seen as different things from the originals, so the current system of lumping them in with them is awkward to say the least. The only real outlier here is the NBS logo replacing the axe, because from what I can tell [https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Nippon_Broadcasting_System Katsu Yoshida never named the eye].
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} My listed reasons can apply, albeit more mildly, to all these courses; and as the redirect policy says, redirects don't cost anything.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, I'm surprised this wasn't already the case (also it's kind of already done with the non-city Tour courses [[Tour Ninja Hideaway|here]], [[Tour Merry Mountain|here]], and [[Tour Sky-High Sundae|here]], <s>I would suggest extending this to Tour courses as well but since it's inevitable that they'll all be in the Booster Course Pass I guess that would just end up pointless in the long run</s>).
#{{User|Tails777}} While the idea of these technically not being official names still come to mind, I'm no doubt supportive of this, mainly cause I'm definitely one of those people who refers to pretty much every track with their system prefix beforehand, official or not. On another note, this could also just make it easier when these tracks inevitably do return, as the article contents can just be moved over to these redirects.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Tails777
#{{User|RealStuffMister}} per proposal <s>however as i mentioned in my comment, this would be my secondary option if another choice including Tour courses is added.</s>
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per all.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} It makes sense, those redirects will eventually become the actual page names anyway (except maybe for the case of ''Mario Kart Tour'' whose non-city courses aren't consistently given the ''Tour'' prefix)
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|BMfan08}} Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} Surprised it wasn't done before. Per all.


====Don't create redirects====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Comments====
====Sunplaza Support - all subjects====
I would say "Create redirects for all unprefixed courses from MK7 or before", however I believe that Mario Kart Tour courses should be included in this list, so the page {{fake link|Tour Singapore Speedway}} would redirect to [[Singapore Speedway]]'s article. For now, i will vote the option i mentioned earlier, but if you create an extra option to include Tour courses, then i'd vote that one {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 19:28, January 21, 2023 (EST)
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
:Like I said in my vote, the issue there is that they'll all inevitably come to the Booster Course Pass and be moved to those names anyway, so it would probably just end up being unnecessary extra work. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:33, January 21, 2023 (EST)
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Consistent with how we handle, say, [[Deku Baba]]s in ''[[Mario Kart 8]]''.
::that just means some courses will have prefix redirects, while some won't for up to 11 months, this, to me, is an "all or none" situation, if you're gonna do some, you might as well do them all. besides, creating a redirect, then transferring contents of another article to it isnt that much work, there's been [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Tour_Sydney_Sprint&type=revision&diff=3730051&oldid=3726004 more intense stuff] done to their articles before. {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 19:41, January 21, 2023 (EST)
#{{User|Shoey}} I've always said the wiki needs more weirdo articles.
:::Admins can move pages over redirects, so one can just ask an admin to rename the pages when necessary. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:12, January 26, 2023 (EST)
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per. Don't see why not. Deku Baba is a good parallel.
Ahemtoday, you can still change the second option to include tour courses, the rules state you can append proposals within the first three days of it being written. Im sure if the people voting for it care enough about the other games having the redirects, they'd agree to Tour courses too {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 12:02, January 22, 2023 (EST)
#{{User|Mariuigi Khed}} Per.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} i always thought we dont give ANNSMB enough coverage here. per all
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} I'm tempted to say this seems like unnecessary splitting of information, but I guess the information would still also be present in the main article, wouldn't it? This seems fine.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Makes sense, and perhaps this could finally crack the mystery of who that unknown celebrity is! Per all.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per all, especially on [[Deku Baba]] and [[Keese]].
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Those look nothing like the original enemies.


I'd rather have the prefixes removed from the course names that are unique (and keep them for those that have different iterations such as (character) Circuit or Rainbow Road courses, obviously) then make prefix redirects. I honestly dislike how ''Tour'' courses that got added to BCP have the prefix, but those that has yet to be added did not. — [[User:Stache|Stache]] ([[User talk:Stache|talk]]) 23:00, January 23, 2023 (EST)
====Sunplaza Support - only enemies====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per


=== Decide what to do with ''StreetPass Mii Plaza'' ===
====OkaP Oppose====
Merge request has been sitting on this page for a while, so let's resolve it once and for all. ''[[StreetPass Mii Plaza]]'' features plenty of ''Mario''-related content, so it should be considered a guest appearance. However, it covers too much information unrelated to ''Mario'', so I additionally propose to trim the features section, Find Mii, and DLC to only cover ''Mario'' content.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'd personally not want to split these enemies since doing so is practically a degree away from re-splitting ''Super Mario World'''s "Fall" graphic swaps (and the ''Advance 2'' exclusives don't have their own names).


'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br>
====Katsu-eye Comments====
'''Deadline''': January 28, 2023, 23:59 GMT


==== Trim and classify as a guest appearance ====
===Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2===
# {{User|Spectrogram}} I'll go work on my ''Smash'' proposals
Since the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles|last proposal]], other proposals have cropped up which sought to trim excess appellatives and nicknames from the titles of various character articles. As a result of these proposals, which saw little to no contention, the following changes were made:
# {{User|LadySophie17}} Fine by me
*Professor Elvin Gadd [[Talk:Professor E. Gadd#Rename (proposal edition)|was moved to]] "Professor E. Gadd".
#{{User|Killer Moth}} This makes perfect sense to do. Per proposal.
*Baby Donkey Kong [[Talk:Baby DK#Move to Baby DK|was moved to]] "Baby DK".
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
*Crossover characters with formerly descriptive titles (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog, Fox McCloud) [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change_full_names_of_crossover_characters_to_the_more_often_used_shortened_versions_in_article_titles|were moved to]] the shortened forms of their names (e.g. "Sonic", "Fox").
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per proposal.


==== Classify as a guest appearance (no trimming) ====
As well, before the aforementioned proposal:
==== Merge and redirect ====
*Donkey Kong Country's Animal Friends [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Move_animal_names_from_the_Donkey_Kong_Country_series_to_just_their_normal_names|were moved to their shorthand names]].
==== Comments ====
*Conker the Squirrel [[Talk:Conker#Rename_to_Conker|was moved to]] "Conker".


===Merge certain non-Mario fighters from the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series into game-specific lists and trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters===
Vigilant gamers and game lore extraordinaires will know why these changes were made: the short forms of these subjects' names have been much more prominent and recent in their relevant official works, and their display titles across the site did not reflect this predilection. The Koopalings, as well as [[Princess Daisy]], are now the outliers in this specific regard--but while [[Talk:Princess_Daisy#Move_to_"Daisy"|the sentiment against moving Daisy's name to its more common shortened form]] was the inconsistency that would arise with [[Princess Peach]] using her long title, I do not recall the Koopalings, as a group, having some special counterpart that would create a similar perceived inconsistency.
Here's a simple premise: the ''Super Mario'' Wiki is not the ''Smash'' Wiki. The wiki has no business giving undue focus to every single element that has been part of the Smash Bros. series. In spite of the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Merge_unrelated_to_Mario_objects_and_items_in_the_Smash_Bros._series|efforts]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Merging_non-Mario_Smash_Bros._series_bosses_and_the_remaining_enemies._Round_3!|to curtail]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Delete_the_bonuses_pages_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series|this practice]], the elephant in the room is still cosily seated.


I'll first reiterate [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/45557/post-2345729 my feelings] on non-Mario concepts featured in this series: in my view, Mario Wiki's mission is indeed to provide information on anything the Mario cast interacts with, and the various Super Smash Bros. concepts, therefore, deserve by all means the privilege to be covered in some way, shape, or form. The problem is that these concepts are currently presented in excessive detail, much of which is specific to these concepts and perhaps as far-removed from Mario as one can get. I believe the two courses of action proposed here go hand in hand towards offering a much more streamlined coverage for the subjects that lack enough notability within the bona fide ''Mario'' franchise.
Yeah, [[Larry]] was called "Larry Koopa" in a specific line of dialogue within Smash Ultimate, in a decade-and-a-half old licensed player's guide, and probably some 2010's toy that I'm sure users will name here in the comments, but the fact is, his short name has been promoted front-and-center within all of the games he has appeared from Mario Kart 8 back in 2014 until today, many of which are namedropped in the previous proposal. Same with his 6 siblings.


Following the standard of the [[List of Super Smash Bros. series items]] and [[List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses]], my initial plan was to propose merging fighters who have had no significant presence within the ''Mario'' franchise into one list housing all their current ''Smash''-related information, in addition to, perhaps, any other relevant information from other ''Mario''-related media where they had cameos and mentions. Realising that the resulting page would be excessively long and more than likely violate the [[MarioWiki:Article size|article size policy]] tenfold, I came up with a compromise that aims to achieve a similar effect:
Besides, [[MarioWiki:Naming]] states plainly:
#'''Trim away detailed, textual information on special moves for all non-Mario fighters.''' Special moves are intrinsic to a character, employing their own abilities and/or weapons. Giving each move a separate heading within a fighter's article just isn't proportional to the extent they manifest a relationship with Mario elements; they can be neatly summarised in prose, as fighter articles [[Samus_Aran#Super_Smash_Bros.|already do]]. In removing this information, a sizable amount of space will be saved, allowing for more compact fighter lists. Images relevant to the special moves will be kept and repurposed as part of the next course of action:
*"the name of an article should correspond to the '''most commonly used English name''' of the subject"
#'''Make a list of fighters for every ''Super Smash Bros.'' game (where ''for 3DS'' and ''for Wii U'' fighters share the same page) containing the relevant sections of each of the non-Mario, non-franchise-significance fighter, complete with a gallery of relevant images for each section.''' For instance, this means that we take the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' sections of [[Ness]], [[Simon Belmont]], and other fighters who fulfill the aforementioned criteria and throw them in a "List of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate fighters" list, with each section having a gallery that comprises any relevant image that would go unused as a result of the redistribution of information. A visual example of how this would work can be seen at the end of the proposal.
*"the more commonly used modern name should be used as the title"


A few notes:
and I believe it's only sensible for the wiki to mirror the more recent developments of the franchise in how a subject is introduced to readers.
*if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual Mario characters--'''their page will remain intact'''. They will still have an entry on the relevant fighter lists, but nothing else beyond their representative artwork and a "main" tag with a link to their respective article. Cameos such as ''Super Mario Maker'' costumes, ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' designs, ''WarioWare'' microgame appearances, non-speaking roles, and mentions do not constitute a significant appearance--and neither do appearances in media where ''Mario'' characters are [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|guests]], such as ''Captain N'', nor appearances in non-Mario media that is syndicated/distributed with Mario media, such as ''The Legend of Zelda'' cartoon and the [[King_Dedede#Mario_Kirby_Meisaku_Video|Mario/Kirby OVA]].
*in cases where information on a fighter is split between lists, their current article is turned into a disambig page for their list entries (e.g., for Ness, it'll be "For information on Ness in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, see: {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighters § Ness}}; {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' fighters § Ness}} etc.") For fighters who have only appeared in one ''Smash'' game, their current article is turned into a simple redirect to their respective section.
*current profile sections won't be moved to these fighter lists to keep their size reasonable. Trophies, stickers, and spirits of each fighter are already covered on their parent pages.
*Subspace Emissary info and classic mode routes from ''Ultimate'' will be among the ported information, even for non-Mario fighters. Reason being, these often involve Mario characters as opponents or otherwise.


With all that said, affected pages include:
Affected pages include:
{|
{|
|-
|-
|
|
*[[Bayonetta]]
*[[Larry Koopa]] (will be moved to "Larry")
*[[Byleth]]
*[[Roy Koopa]] ("Roy")
*[[Captain Falcon]]
*[[Wendy O. Koopa]] ("Wendy")
*[[Captain Olimar]]
*[[Lemmy Koopa]] ("Lemmy")
*[[Chrom]]
*[[Morton Koopa Jr.]] ("Morton")
*[[Cloud Strife]]
*[[Ludwig von Koopa]] ("Ludwig")
*[[Corrin]]
*[[Iggy Koopa]] ("Iggy")
*[[Dark Pit]]
*[[Dark Samus]]
*[[Duck Hunt (character)|Duck Hunt Duo]]
*[[Falco Lombardi]]
*[[Ganondorf]] (would lose Featured status in the process)
*[[Greninja]]
*[[Hero]]
*[[Ice Climbers]]
*[[Ike]]
*[[Incineroar]]
*[[Jigglypuff]]
*[[Joker]]
*[[Kazooie]]? (need to look into that one '"Club Nintendo'' comic)
|
*[[Kazuya Mishima]]
*[[Ken Masters]]
*[[King Dedede]]
*[[Little Mac]]
*[[Lucas]]
*[[Lucario]]
*[[Lucina]]
*[[Marth]]
*[[Meta Knight]]
*[[Mewtwo]]
*[[Min Min]]
*[[Mr. Game & Watch]]
*[[Ness]]
*[[Palutena]]
*[[Pichu]]
*[[Pikachu]]
*[[Pit (character)|Pit]]
*[[Pokémon Trainer]]
**[[Charizard]]
*[[Princess Zelda]]
|
|
*[[Pyra]] / [[Mythra]]
*[[List of Larry Koopa profiles and statistics]] (will be moved to "List of Larry profiles and statistics")
*[[Richter Belmont]]
*[[List of Roy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Roy profiles and statistics")
*[[Ridley]]
*[[List of Wendy O. Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Wendy profiles and statistics")
*[[Robin]]
*[[List of Lemmy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Lemmy profiles and statistics")
*[[Roy (Fire Emblem)]]
*[[List of Morton Koopa Jr. profiles and statistics]] ("List of Morton profiles and statistics")
*[[Ryu]]
*[[List of Ludwig von Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Ludwig profiles and statistics")
*[[Samus Aran]]
*[[List of Iggy Koopa profiles and statistics]] ("List of Iggy profiles and statistics")
*[[Sephiroth]]
*[[Sheik]]
*[[Shulk]]
*[[Simon Belmont]]
*[[Solid Snake]]
*[[Sora]]
*[[Steve (Minecraft)]]
*[[Terry Bogard]]
*[[Toon Link]]
*[[Wii Fit Trainer]]
*[[Wolf O'Donnell]]
*[[Young Link]]
*[[Zero Suit Samus]]
|}
|}


The following pages will remain unaffected:
Note:
*[[Banjo]] - playable in ''Diddy Kong Racing''
*This proposal targets only page titles. Even if it's a pass, articles can still acknowledge the full forms of these characters where appropriate, such as in Koopaling article openers.
*[[Fox McCloud]] - reasonably significant appearance in the ''Club Nintendo'' comic "[[Super Mario: Mario im Wunderland]]"
*If this proposal passes, the templates in [[:Category:Koopaling content templates]] become obsolete and are to be abolished.
*[[Inkling]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''
*[[Isabelle]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''
*[[Kirby]] - major appearances in ''Club Nintendo'' comics
*[[Link]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''
*[[Mega Man]] - major appearance in the ''Club Nintendo'' comic "[[Super Mario: Die Verwandlung]]"
*[[Mii]] - (playable) appearances in many ''Mario'' titles
*[[Pac-Man]] - playable in the ''Mario Kart Arcade GP'' crossover series
*[[R.O.B.]] - playable in ''Mario Kart DS''
*[[Sonic]] - playable in the ''Mario & Sonic'' crossover series
*[[Villager]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''


I put together a sample layout that would inspire the appearance of these new fighter list pages; particularities, such as image size and whether or not fighters with intra-Wiki "main article" tags need an image to begin with, are negotiable.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
----
'''Deadline''': October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT
<div class="contentbox mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"data-expandtext="Show sample"data-collapsetext="Hide sample">
Page title: '''List of ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' fighters'''


This is a list of fighters in ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]''.
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal, and per the former proposal as well, which I encourage participants to peruse. (Though, this time, with no multi-option shenanigans.)
#{{User|Axii}} Per con Carne (like the last time).
#{{User|Nintendo101}} This may be controversial, but I think this is fine and in-line with our policies. These characters have largely only been referred to by their first names since ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga''. This does not mean Ludwig's full name is not "Ludwig von Koopa" or that it does not see occasional use in marketing and in games - it just means the title of the article is just Ludwig. I personally do not think that is as systematically harmful or erroneous as previous proposals seemed to have suggested. Lots of reference material does this. For example, the name of the {{wp|Mark Twain}} article on Wikipedia is not "Samuel L. Clemens" in any language.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Needless to say, there have been a few changes since the last time this was proposed.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. It seems only fair as we clamp down more and more on these elongated page titles.
#{{User|Tails777}} Supported once and I'll do it again. Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. I never really understood the main argument against this last time ("the full names still exist", as though that means they should automatically take priority over their more common short counterparts).
#{{User|Technetium}} Per all.
#{{User|DesaMatt}} Per all von Koopa.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} while i don't agree with the de-title-ification that's been going on, if we're going to do it we might as well be consistent with it.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} The fact that there exists an entire category of templates just to circumvent a standard that violates MarioWiki:Naming is concerning, to say the least.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per all.
#{{User|YoYo}} per all
#{{User|BMfan08}} Per all.
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all, I know I opposed this before but I've changed my mind after several similar proposals since then have passed.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per Koopall


<big>'''Mario</big>
====Oppose====
----
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} No. Okay, no. I'm trying to make a case for undoing the proposal that shortened the Sonic characters' names. I've got a strong case for Fox McCloud in that not only was his last name mentioned in every Smash game, his [[Costume Mario#92|costume]] in [[Super Mario Maker]] is the "Fox McCloud" costume, not the "Fox" costume. And I know that if this proposal passes, Peach and Daisy are next.
[[File:Mario SSBUltimate.png|thumb|200px]]
{{main|Mario#Super Smash Bros. Ultimate{{!}}Mario § Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}}
{{br}}
<big>'''Link</big>
----
[[File:LinkSSBU.png|thumb|200px]]
{{main|Link#Super Smash Bros. Ultimate{{!}}Link § Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}}
{{br}}
<big>'''Ness</big>
----
[[File:Ness SSBU.png|thumb|200px]]
{{main-external|SmashWiki|Ness (SSBU)}}
Ness appears as an unlockable playable fighter in ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]''. While his moveset is mostly unchanged from the previous ''Super Smash Bros.'' titles, he has received various new tweaks to his moves. Ness now emits PSI when pummeling opponents and while using his neutral aerial. His up aerial, rather than headbutting, has him waving his hands in the air. In addition, for his PK Fire and PSI Magnet moves, graphics are taken from ''EarthBound''. He and Lucas have a new victory theme, which is an arrangement of the last two of the Eight Melodies from ''EarthBound Beginnings''.


Several of Ness's attacks receive names: his forward smash is called Batter Up!, his up smash is called Around the World, his down smash is called Walk the Dog, his forward throw is called PK Throw, and his back throw is called Reverse PK Throw.
====Comments====
 
To clarify my position on Daisy, it was not because I thought the proposal was unreasonable. To me, an analogous situation would be drafting a proposal to only change the name of Iggy Koopa's article and none of other Koopalings. Maybe others don't see Peach and Daisy as related to each other as sibling characters like the Koopalings, but that's how I feel at least. I would receive a proposal that included both Peach and Daisy differently. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:31, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
;Classic Mode route
:I reworded that point about the Daisy vs. Peach situation to sound less like a potshot. Sorry. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:34, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
{|class="wikitable" style="margin: auto;" align=left
::I thought it was funny :) Just wanted to clarify my position. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 15:37, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
!colspan="5"|Home to Onett!
:::I appreciate that you took it in good humor, but I've made a point that I'll try and be more careful with the way I word my statements. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:41, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
|-
!width=20px|Round
!width=150px|Opponent(s)
!width=100px|Stage
!width=250px|Song
|-
!1
|Ness (blue costume)
|[[Magicant]]
|Magicant <small>(for 3DS / Wii U)</small>
|-
!2
|[[Lucas]]
|[[New Pork City]]
|You Call This a Utopia?!
|-
!3
|[[R.O.B.]] (purple costume) ×3
|[[Fourside]]
|Fourside
|-
!4
|[[Sheik]]
|[[Gerudo Valley]]
|Bein' Friends
|-
!5
|[[Toon Link]] (dark costume) ×2
|[[Luigi's Mansion (stage)|Luigi's Mansion]]
|Unfounded Revenge / Smashing Song of Praise
|-
!6
|[[Villager]], [[Isabelle]]
|[[Onett]]
|Onett Theme / Winters Theme
|-
!Final
|[[Master Hand]], [[Crazy Hand]] ''(intensity 7.0 or higher)''
|[[Final Destination]]
|Master Hand<br>Master Hand / Crazy Hand ''(intensity 7.0 or higher)''
|}
{{br}}
;Gallery
<gallery>
10-Ness.png|Stock icon
SSBUltimate Launch Star.jpg
</gallery>
{{br}}
<big>'''Simon</big>
----
[[File:Simon Belmont SSBU.png|thumb|200px]]
{{main-external|SmashWiki|Simon (SSBU)}}
'''Simon Belmont''' is a protagonist from Konami's ''{{wp|Castlevania}}'' video game series, debuting in its very first entry. He makes his ''[[Super Smash Bros. (series)|Super Smash Bros.]]'' debut in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' as a third-party playable character, alongside fellow Konami characters [[Solid Snake]] and [[Richter Belmont]], his descendant. He was announced to be playable in the game during the August 2018 ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' Direct, alongside fellow newcomers Richter, [[Chrom]], [[Dark Samus]], and [[King K. Rool]].
 
Simon's various attacks involve him using his "Vampire Killer" whip. His special attacks are Axe, an axe that is a powerful projectile; Holy Water, a magical, multi-hitting projectile dealing flame damage; Cross, a projectile with boomerang-esque properties; and Uppercut, a powerful uppercut that functions as Simon's recovery move. His Final Smash, Grand Cross, involves trapping players in a coffin and destroying it. Simon's whip is long-ranged, being effective to use from far distances. Simon's forward, back, and up aerials also function as tether recoveries, making them useful for recovering when close to an edge.


{{wp|Keith Silverstein}}, Simon's English voice actor in ''{{wp|Castlevania: Judgment}}'', reprises his role as Simon. {{wp|Hideo Ishikawa}}, who voiced Simon in ''DreamMix TV World Fighters'', also reprises the role in the Japanese version.
@SeanWheeler: If Mario Maker costume names were the decider, [[Mr. Resetti]] would just be "Resetti", and indeed, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy would just be Peach and Daisy. But the main thing the Fox page covers isn't a costume in Mario Maker, it's his more common, prominent, and recent Smash appearances, in which the main name used to refer to him is always just "Fox". (Also, Sonic's Mario Maker costume is just called "Sonic", not "Sonic the Hedgehog".) {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:03, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
:It's not just the Mario Maker costumes. He's been referred to as "Fox McCloud" in Melee's trophies and Ultimate's spirits, plus in Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 17:22, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
::And he's been referred to as "Fox" in his actual role as a playable character in every single Smash game. As I've repeated countless times in our [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles|previous]] [[Talk:Shadow (character)#Rename to "Shadow"|debates]], this isn't an argument of whether the full name exists, it only matters which name is more common. Please stop cherry-picking the times when the full name was used in profiles and such and acting like that automatically outweighs the more common name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:56, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
:::I feel like these proposals shortening names are meant to take the "common name" part of the naming policy to it's literal conclusion. The article names were fine before they were changed by proposals, and now we're changing very distinctive article names to generic names. That's not good for disambiguation. The shortened names could be used as redirects, but we are discouraged from linking redirects, making me confused why we have redirects at all. I mean, link templates for the Koopalings? In November, I'm going to make a proposal to encourage linking redirects. My proposal to overturn the crossover character naming was only delayed by me not having unlocked the Sonic Character Book at the Secret Shop in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games. Yes, I was going to bank on the full names being used somewhere in the games being enough to outweigh the player names. Are Peach and Daisy are going to lose their princess titles for the sake of following the naming conventions? I think the naming rule should be changed. Problem is, I can't figure out how to word it in a way to have the pages moved back to the names I want. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:55, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
::::This proposal is trying to get rid of those Koopaling templates, though. We have redirects for search purposes, not for linking. And why shouldn't the common name policy be taken to its "literal conclusion"? Are you saying you'd rather we enforced it inconsistently? That we should only enforce it when you personally happen to prefer the common name? We shouldn't ignore official sources just so that we can use the names we prefer. Also (another thing I've repeated endlessly), calling these names "generic" is subjective at best and just false at worst. Nothing about "Larry" makes it inherently a more "generic" name than "Mario" or "Pauline", and if Nintendo is content to use the shorter names to identify the characters, we have no reason not to follow suit. "But Peach and Daisy" is also a bad counterargument when several of the users supporting this proposal also supported the Daisy proposal, myself included. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:07, October 1, 2024 (EDT)


In his debut trailer, he arrives at [[Dracula's Castle]] and eliminates Death shortly after the latter killed [[Luigi]]. He later confronts [[Dracula]] himself but is nearly defeated, only to be saved by his descendant Richter.<ref> Nintendo (August 8, 2018). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awl4L0yVdkg Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Direct 8.8.2018] ''YouTube''. Retrieved August 8, 2018</ref>
===Overturn the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/55#Delete_Category:User_eo|proposal]] that resulted in the deletion of [[:Category:User eo]] (category for speakers of {{wp|Esperanto}})===
Myself, I don't care about this language, and needless to say, neither do most people on the planet, but I take issue with the proposal that had it removed in the first place for a few reasons.
*The proposal argues that this language "is not a real language", that "nobody really picked it up", and likens it to the fictional language of Klingon. Despite its status as a constructed language, it is, in fact, very much a real language intended and created to be functional. It has a(n admittedly small) number of speakers across the planet, some of whom may well be potential editors on this wiki for all we know. The comparison to Klingon, which was created with an artistic purpose, is misleading.
*The proposer [[User talk:Doomhiker#Woah|was outed as an extremist]] (read up on the details at your own risk) who seemingly was planning to have other language-based user categories removed, as he followed up with another [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/55#Delete_Category:User_ka|proposal targeting the Georgian user category]]. The wiki's policies outline that we shouldn't assume bad faith in users, but given the circumstances here, I hope you'll allow me the assumption that this user had ulterior motives in their little curatorial project, namely in altering the wiki ever so slightly according to their outlooks. Proposal failed and the user was banned for their concerning behavior, preventing further such proposals from being made.


Similar to [[King Dedede]] in ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]'' and [[Lucina]] in ''[[Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS]] / [[Super Smash Bros. for Wii U|Wii U]]'', Simon's name is announced differently in the Japanese version to reflect the pronunciation in that language. This trait is also shared with Richter and King K. Rool.
Now, as you'd expect, the Esperanto user category certainly never saw much use--in fact, [https://web.archive.org/web/20140712133001/http://www.mariowiki.com/Category:User_eo only one user employed it as of 2014] <small>(archive.org)</small> and even then [https://web.archive.org/web/20140711152028/http://www.mariowiki.com/User:Pakkun only listed Esperanto as a second language] <small>(archive.org)</small> (though, the very point of Esperanto was to be an auxillary language between people who don't speak the same native language). That user, who goes by {{user|Pakkun}}, has since taken the category off their page, so you could argue that this proposal lacks a tangible purpose as "User eo" would be dead on arrival should it be recreated.


In the Adventure mode, Simon is seen standing near a cliff when he and the other fighters oppose [[Galeem]] for the first time. Although Simon is not shown to be hit by Galeem's beams directly, he, like every fighter except [[Kirby]], is imprisoned in the World of Light, where a Galeem-serving puppet fighter of him is created. Simon is later freed after his puppet fighter is defeated, and he subsequently joins Kirby's team against Galeem and later [[Dharkon]].
The point of this proposal, however, isn't to recreate this language immediately; it is to negate the proposal that currently prevents its creation if someone ever considers they'd derive some use from it. '''This community should be open to anyone regardless of their cultural background.''' The previous proposal is contrary to that.
 
Simon is a heavy fighter, being heavier than Snake, [[R.O.B.]], and [[Banjo]] & [[Kazooie]] but lighter than [[Samus Aran|Samus]], [[Bowser Jr.]] (and the [[Koopalings]]), Dark Samus, and [[Terry Bogard|Terry]], while having the same weight as [[Wario]], [[Ike]], [[Ridley]], and Richter.
 
;Classic Mode route
{| class="wikitable" style="margin: auto;" align=left
!colspan="5"|Smash-vania
|-
!width=20px|Round
!width=150px|Opponent(s)
!width=100px|Rule
!width=150px|Stage
!width=200px|Song
|-
!1
|[[King K. Rool]], [[Incineroar]] (black costume)
|
|[[Dracula's Castle]] (Battlefield)
|Vampire Killer
|-
!2
|Giant [[Ridley]]
|
|[[Luigi's Mansion (stage)|Luigi's Mansion]] (Ω)
|Out of Time
|-
!3
|[[Bayonetta]], [[Dark Pit]]
|Free-for-All
|[[Umbra Clock Tower]]
|Bloody Tears / Monster Dance
|-
!4
|[[Charizard]] (blue costume), [[King Dedede]] (green costume)
|
|[[Kalos Pokémon League]]
|Beginning
|-
!5
|[[Bowser]], [[Ganondorf]], [[Mewtwo]]
|
|[[Reset Bomb Forest]]
|Simon Belmont Theme (The Arcade)
|-
!6
|[[Richter Belmont|Richter]]
|
|Dracula's Castle
|Divine Bloodlines
|-
!Final
|[[Dracula]]
|
|
|Nothing to Lose<br>Black Night
|}
{{br}}
;Gallery
<gallery>
66-Simon.png|Stock icon
SSBU Axe Simon.png|<small>Standard special:</small><br>Axe
SSBU Cross Simon.png|<small>Side special:</small><br>Cross
SSBU Rising Uppercut Simon.png|<small>Up special:</small><br>Rising Uppercut
SSBU Holy Water Simon.png|<small>Down special:</small><br>Holy Water
SSBUGrandCross.png|<small>Final Smash:</small><br>Grand Cross
</gallery>
</div>
----


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 30, 2023, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': October 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} According to calculations that came to me in a dream, this proposal has an 86.489% chance of failure.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} per proposal.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal and the discussion on Discord. ''Smash Bros.'' is a crossover, sure, but ''Mario'' content is now very minor compared to the games' first installment, and the problem will only continue to get worse and worse with each coming game and their DLC. Edit: also per Somethingone's rant below, dear God, this was one hell of a read.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I'm looking at these pages for Smash characters, and... this is just a less comprehensive version of what's on the Smash wiki. I really don't see the need for these. Perhaps they could be just trimmed, but... well, that'll happen anyway with this whole list thing.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Honestly, we would be down for ''more'' Conlangs to have user categories. We can't imagine the overlap of, say, Vötgil speakers to Mario Wiki users is very large, but like, in regards to a strictly English wiki, the Conlang categories in particular are just for-fun categories at the end of the day, and who the hey are we to ''expressly prohibit'' other people's fun? And even in the most generous reading of the events, it still feels like a bit of warped priorities when some categories have been in need of reforms for awhile now <small>(sorry about the Thieves category thing, we're still thinking of that and honestly at this point we wouldn't mind someone else chipping in with that)</small> and haven't gotten them, but we have an entire proposal dedicated to... Deleting a category for Esperanto speakers??? (And for the record, this was back when [[:Category:Canines]] was called Dogs--something something, obligatory mention of [[Penkoon]].)
#{{User|Cosmic Cowboy}} Yeah. I gauged interest for this on the forums, and we aren't trying to be SmashWiki here. SmashWiki exists for a reason, you know?
#{{User|Shadow2}} We DID this? wtf??
#{{User|Shiny K-Troopa}} This is the only NIWA wiki hogging ''Smash'' content like this, it makes no sense. Most of it is irrelevant to ''Mario'' and Super Smash Wiki has a purpose.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} I've never been fond of our ''Smash'' coverage here, and nothing's stopping us from changing our policy ''after'' this proposal rather than before.
#{{User|DryBonesBandit}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Somethingone}} If us worrying about not treating Smash as a crossover was a valid reason to stop all our trimming of the coverage of it, we have passed all the points where we could stop everything and have a reasonable policy whilst keeping that fact in mind. We could have stopped when we first changed its status from "crossover" to "special case", but we didn't. We could have stopped when we merged the items into a list page, but we didn't. We could have stopped anytime between those two critical points and had a (mostly) reasonable Smash policy, but we didn't. Now, we're at a point where simply doing nothing creates a coverage confuddlement of picking and choosing things based on arbitrary metrics, and I can't help but find the arguments against this proposal a wee bit misguided. '''No,''' this proposal is not going to remove any information regarding Smash by merging things into a list. That didn't happen when we merged the items, or the bosses, or the Subspace Emmisary stages. At worst, we trim a bunch of sentences to better summarize them with a space limit in mind, splitting the lists up if they get too big. But ''that is just standard practice on this wiki when we deal with a lot of text,'' unless this wiki somehow decides to never trim pages ever again? But regardless, how is it possible that after years of debate on this topic there is still so much drama over trimming information about non-Mario characters' Smash appearances, yet nobody batted an eye when [https://www.mariowiki.com/Special:MobileDiff/3778173 we suddenly stopped covering Smash information in full on Mario's ''own'' article without any prior discussion]? And '''no,''' doing this proposed merge would ''not'' be inconsistent with the way we cover the stickers, trophies, spirits, etc. We don't have individual pages describing every single one of those in extraneous detail or, even worse, with just the description of each trophy on each page. We keep all of those in list pages instead, just like we now do with the items and the bosses. If anything, it's even ''more'' inconsistent leaving our policy as it is now, as like I mentioned it's arbitrary cherry picking what we do and don't want to have full coverage. '''No,''' doing this merge will not impact our search results (don't even try bringing that faulty argument up) as we would still have redirect pages on this wiki, under the names people search up to which they click and are brought to the list pages. I've tried it before, and that is what happens, not "nobody clicks on those pages anymore". '''No,''' Smash is absolutely not in any way comparable to any other crossover Mario has been in. Why is it not in any way comparable to any other crossover Mario has been in? It's not just because it's a multi way crossover from 50+ different game series, it's because Nintendo has largely treated Smash as its own unique series with its own unique things to it instead of ''just'' a multi way crossover. Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Tabuu, Galeem, Dharkom, Battlefield/the other non-series-specific stages, the Home Run Contest and Target Practice, everything in Subspace Emmisary, etc. None of these things are from any specific series, they are all Smash-original. How much crossover-original, interactible, non-generic content do other crossovers like M&S, Fortune Steeet, Mario & Rabbids, etc. have? Very little. And most importantly, '''No,''' the amount of Mario content in Smash is ''NOT'' in any way significantly more than any other series's content in Smash, and Mario does not have special Smash treatment in any way. Nintendo never marketed it as a Mario game, never treated it as such, never showed a clear preference towards Mario in the Smash games themselves, and if it ever seems like it did, please remember just how big the greater Mario franchise is as a whole. The only time that Mario could have maybe almost kind-of sort-of had a bigger promise was in the first Smash installment, but that's it. Heck, was Smash ever listed on any Mario-series guidebooks (I.e., on ESMB or something else)? I don't know, but I honestly doubt so. '''TL, DR;''' If we wanted Smash as a full crossover, we wouldn't have given it special status back then. If we don't want inconsistency by making the fighters into a list page, we wouldn't have merged ''every''* other aspect into a list page. And if we are worried about a loss of information from this proposal, it's most likely just a worry as condensing information & linking to SmashWiki does not do that to such a significant degree. Strong support, I just want this nonsense to end.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|WildWario}} Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} With the provided context, something about Trig Jegman's proposals rubs me the wrong way. If it's true that he was trying to gradually remove other languages, where would he stop? He stated that Esperanto and Gregorian are languages not supported by Nintendo (a weak argument IMO, as Nintendo =/= this wiki), and not widely spoken, so would he first try to get all small-spoken languages removed? Would he eventually try to get larger languages removed just because Nintendo doesn't support these languages? Would he eventually go even further and get even languages that ''are'' supported by Nintendo removed because they're not as widely spoken as other languages? Would he eventually make it so that English is the ''only'' language remaining? Would he then remove that category too because if that's the only language category for users, then what's the point of keeping it? Or worse, is this a ploy to recognize who is native to other languages and would he try to get non-English users banned so only English-speaking users have access to the wiki (and ''then'' remove the English category)? ...Uh...fearmongering aside, per all.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all, pretty please.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} No harm having it if people want to use it.
#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
#{{User|Axii}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} The more the Marior. That older proposal was dumb.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} I'm not a fan of banning users for off-site drama, especially when it's political. But if his proposal was bigoted, then maybe it should be overturned.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all, especially Sean. This proposal was asinine at best, in retrospect, and harmful at worst. And that's coming from a man who doesn't have full context as to what happened.
#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. That category never hurt nobody.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Absoutely no. We have had many proposals to restrict''Smash Bros.'' information that failed and this would be one of the most serious. The game is a crossover, so we have to cover all the relevant information that a crossover game must have. At least with other instances, those were just gameplay mechanics or related to non-playable characters. This is merely giving the game a guest appearance role, which would go against what we stood on the games for years. This proposal also fails to mention the Subspace Emissary which has many of the characters interact (and this is why I felt merging Master Hand and other story-related bosses wasn't a good decision). I'd only really accept this if the game was considered a guest appearance but we have consistently referred to it as a crossover. I feel that these pages could be important if people want to know which characters have crossovered with the franchise at one point.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Our stance on trimming Smash coverage has, in almost every instance, been to condense information, not cut it. This would not only completely reverse that stance, but start top down at what is pretty much the most important aspect of the series - a change like this, if it were to go through, should really start bottom up. Axing this much information on fighters, when [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Merge_all_non-Mario_universe_Super_Smash_Bros._Stages_into_a_collective_article|we couldn't even get a consensus on merging the stages]] just a few months ago and elements of the series like trophies, stickers, and spirits are still covered in full, is a weird way to go about it and definitely too much, too fast. Aside from that, I don't think splitting this into one page per game would be the best way to do this. There's a lot of overlap between fighters, and realistically, how different is Captain Falcon across the series that we need to split that information over five pages? (Also, I'd say Samus would be worth keeping around too since she had a physical appearance in SMRPG.)
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. Though I have been in favor of condensing and limiting some of the ''Smash Bros.'', but like my position on having articles for stages, I feel that fighters are important enough to have their own articles, especially when the games are considered crossover appearances. I am also not in favor of completely cutting content unless it refers to very minor aspects of the series.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Yeah, no. Per every individual point raised above.
#{{User|Paper Jorge}} If we're gonna start violently trimming Super Smash Bros. content, I think starting at the prominent, notable and major playable characters with various crossover cameos ''instead'' of starting at trophies, Lylat Cruise convos, spirits, challenges, you name it........is horrible. Terrible prioritizing. I actually think if we're gonna reinvent the wheel and start from scratch, the playable characters and stages should be the most important things to keep.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} After thinking about for a little bit, I have to agree with the opposition here. Trimming down coverage on things like items and bosses is one thing, but these are the characters that are the most vital part about the game. This wiki covers all Mario-related crossovers. It is why we have articles for Sonic characters because they appear in the Mario & Sonic games and make up half of the cast, we can't just go around trimming content for the sake of them not being Mario characters. Ultimately, like the users above, I find this to be unnecessary.
#{{User|Hewer}} The main reason I'm opposing this is because I think it's inconsistent with how we handle other crossover games. While it's true that, say, Mario & Sonic has a much greater proportion of Mario content than Smash does, that doesn't change the fact that there is still a significant amount of Mario content in Smash, and the Sonic characters in Mario & Sonic that we give their own articles don't have much more to do with the Mario series than all the Smash characters, the only real difference between them being that one crossover has significantly fewer franchises involved in it than the other. If we decide to make a change like this then I think we should first revise the [[MarioWiki:Coverage|coverage policy]] as a whole, because it doesn't seem logical to me to merge the Smash cast into Lists of Super Smash Bros. fighters without also having List of Sonic the Hedgehog characters in Mario & Sonic, List of Dragon Quest characters in Fortune Street, etc. Also, merging fighters when every [[stage]] is still split even after a somewhat recent failed merge proposal for them is kind of ridiculous.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all. I've thought about the comparison to Sonic series characters in the Mario & Sonic series as well; even if Mario & Sonic is a much smaller crossover compared to Smash, both are still crossovers. If we cut/trim/lower information on Smash fighters, we'd have to do the same for characters like Tails or Shadow or Vector cause even if Mario & Sonic is just two franchises, those characters have about as much relevance to the Mario series as characters like Ness, Wii Fit Trainer or the Duck Hunt Dog do.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
@Wikiboy10, err, there's a specific statement right there in the proposal that Subspace Emissary info will be kept. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:44, January 23, 2023 (EST)
The real question is if we can have a Klingon category (as [[User:Alex95|a certain other editor who is no longer with us due to concerning behavior]] mentioned on that proposal). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:11, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:Up for debate whether user categories can have some basis in fiction. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:16, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:We think that Conlangs in general should just be allowed, just because it both feels really, really weird to try to police ''what'' Conlangs "count" as languages, and because the idea of focusing even more proposals on such a for-fun topic feels.... A little too much, when that effort is best used elsewhere. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 18:14, September 28, 2024 (EDT)


@Waluigi Time: Where do we draw a line between condensation and removal of information? What about the former [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Delete_the_bonuses_pages_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series|bonuses pages]]: that information was outright removed due to being irrelevant and having equivalent coverage on the Smash Wiki. The amount of detail given to each character's special move set is similarly completely out of line with this website's scope and is being better handled on the other wiki. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:01, January 23, 2023 (EST)
<s>We should be open for Inklingese and Smurf.</s> {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:24, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
:It seems to me that anything we have cut has always been the nitty-gritty minor elements of the series. Besides fighters, we still cover all the available information on the stages, items (including Assist Trophies and Pokemon), bosses, side modes, and the collectibles I mentioned, even for what's been merged to list pages. Setting aside my own opinions on Smash coverage, I just don't think starting by gutting the most important element of the series is a good idea when all of that is still on the table. There's a reason why the successful Smash coverage proposals have been done gradually, and why the ones that have tried to do too much at once failed. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:20, January 23, 2023 (EST)
:<s>Per Arend.</s> --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:50, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
::And wouldn't the in-depth explanations that this wiki currently provides for each character's moveset be well beyond reasonable? Smash Bros. items, Assist Trophies, and assist Pokemon aren't nearly comparable to fighters in gameplay role; there's only so much you can write about these, and their current coverage already lays down the gist for each. Recurring side modes like Break the Targets and Home Run should be broken up and merged with their relevant game articles (keep in mind that subjects like Mob Smash and Classic Mode are currently handled in this way, and that works well enough), and the collectible lists continue to have hosts of irrelevant information the likes of which this wiki should get rid of, albeit I agree the way this was attempted was not the best. In contrast to the unsuccessful proposals you mentioned, the present one pursues a very clear goal: merge fighters into game-related pages and, in the process of assuring these pages are within acceptable parameters, trim the useless and deprecated information that takes the form of detailed movesets. The alternative approach would have been to make this proposal a two-parter, where one establishes whether said information should be trimmed, and the other finally advocates merging the fighters provided the first one passes, but I think the proposal in its current form serves to accelerate the process whilst providing two simple options. With all that said, I do operate under the assumption that, given the two-part proposal situation, there would have been a sizeable overlap between the people who would support one and the people who would support the other, as would be the case with the opposition. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:14, January 23, 2023 (EST)
:::I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what's "reasonable" to cover then, since we have totally opposed stances here and I doubt any more back and forth would change that. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:00, January 23, 2023 (EST)
@Paper Jorge: As far as the wiki is concerned, fighters and stages are just another aspect of the game, regardless of how you or anyone else perceives them. Fighters may be the game's main draw, but that essentially only plays into player preference and sympathy, and this is their only claim to coverage priority on this wiki; there otherwise exists zero ingrained, objective priority to cover one group of Smash subjects better than another. (Name one besides "characters are playable and I relate to them more than to an inanimate object".) The proposals that aimed to restrict information on stages, trophies and the whole shebang had too many options, and Smash coverage is already contentious as it is, so it's not difficult to see why these proposals had users pulling in different directions, yet those subjects should definitely be revisited ''especially'' if this proposal, by a miracle, succeeds. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:54, January 24, 2023 (EST)


Unlike crossovers where ''Mario'' franchise makes up a very large portion of the game, such as ''Sonic'' or ''Fortune Street'', ''Smash'' should be covered as a guest appearance. There is no reason why a series with countless franchises put together should be covered in full. Mario elements deserve pages, I don't understand why we should bother with the rest. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:06, January 24, 2023 (EST)
===Lower the requirement for a disambiguation page from 5 to 4===
:Not sure if treating Smash as a guest appearance is optimal, but I agree on maintaining a differentiation between it and other crossover situations. Hewer, respectfully, did you even read the coverage policy before bringing it up? It says right there that Smash Bros. is an exceptional type of crossover, as it's marketed as "many franchises coming together" rather than "Mario and then something else". Thus, quote, "pages for the [Smash] series are decided on a more particular basis", different from the treatment of other crossover titles. Your vote, and Killer Moth's for that matter, are based on wrong premises. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:20, January 24, 2023 (EST)
As of now, the requirement for a disambiguation page's creation is five pages:
::You misunderstood my point (though it is my fault for not explaining it better). "should be covered as a guest appearance" does not imply "should be classified as a guest appearance". ''Smash Bros.'' as a crossover should only have in-depth (key word is in-depth, lists are a perfectly fine compromise) coverage of ''Mario'' elements and the rest is unneeded. I know coverage policy well, thanks. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:28, January 24, 2023 (EST)
:''"If there are five or more pages which could be reasonably associated with a given name, then a disambiguation page must be created"'' ([[MarioWiki:Naming]])
:::I was addressing Hewer with the part of my message that concerned the policy, not you. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:44, January 24, 2023 (EST)
This rule feels needlessly restrictive, considering the amount of clutter links make at the very top of the page. "For a minigame in the ''WarioWare'' series, see X. For an object in ''Super Mario Odyssey'' found in the Luncheon Kingdom, see Y. For an underwater enemy from...", you get the idea. If this proposal passes, the threshold on MarioWiki:Naming will be lowered from 5 to 4.  
::::I apologize for being an idiot. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 15:11, January 24, 2023 (EST)
::Ok, sorry for having worded my vote badly, but what I was trying to say is that if we're doing things like this to our Smash coverage I think we should first revise the coverage policy as a whole because I don't think it's consistent to give subjects only related to Mario via Smash less importance on the wiki than subjects only related to Mario via other crossovers. For example, [[Sticks the Badger]] and [[Incineroar]] really have the same amount of relevance to Mario as each other, both being characters we only cover because they were playable in crossovers with a lot of Mario content, and I don't think the proportion of Mario content in each crossover is a good reason to treat these otherwise virtually identical cases differently to each other. Yes, there are a lot more other franchises in Smash than in those smaller crossovers, but there is still a very large amount of Mario content in Smash probably comparable to the amount in those other crossovers even if the proportion may be very different. I'm aware the coverage policy says Smash is something of a special case but I personally don't think that exception should be taken to this much of an extreme in trying to have our cake and eat it too. I've reworded parts of my vote to hopefully be more clear. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:11, January 24, 2023 (EST)
:::You excuse yourself for having worded your vote badly, then proceed to restate the very same wrong premise you went with originally. The policy already makes a distinction between Smash and crossovers like Mario & Sonic, and that's because, again, Smash isn't billed as "Mario + other franchises", which would give it the privileges of a ''Mario'' game proper, it's "this, and this, and this franchise all coming together (and Mario just happens to be there)", something that hasn't actually been tried in any other Nintendo propriety. [Late Edit: And as Somethingone states, Smash Bros. is more of a franchise of its own, it isn’t claimed by any one franchise represented in it; heck, the first game wasn’t even originally conceived with an all-star Nintendo cast.] No, the argument that Mario is disproportionally represented doesn't hold water, that's yet another metric powered by subjectivity and is easily dispelled by the aforementioned fact. Besides, whether the changes proposed here should extend to coverage of the other crossover games is up for another discussion, ''not this one'', because it would entail an overhaul of policies that currently operate separate from each other. The fact that the opposition knowingly ignores this just reeks of bad faith. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:08, January 26, 2023 (EST)
::::The part of my vote I worded badly is when I originally said that the proposal was inconsistent with the coverage policy, when what I'm really trying to say is that I don't think the exception Smash has should be taken this far (i.e. I think the coverage policy should be changed if this were to pass). I'm aware this proposal isn't technically against the policy, but again I reiterate that the Sonic characters in Mario & Sonic or Dragon Quest characters in Fortune Street have about the same relevance to Mario as the crossover characters in Smash, all of them being characters we only cover because they were in games with lots of Mario stuff in them and that are otherwise just as irrelevant to the series as each other. I never said that Mario is 'disproportionally represented' in Smash (in fact I specifically argued against the proportion being prioritised in importance over the amount), I'm just saying that there's a lot of Mario stuff in Smash even though it isn't a Mario game itself in a similar fashion to, say, Fortune Street. I'm aware I'm discussing potentially overhauling policies, that's because I think it's necessary to have that discussion first before deciding to make a change like this due to the large inconsistency it would cause in our crossover coverage. Basically, I don't think we should be merging the Smash fighters into lists without also doing the same for other crossover characters. I'm also not quite sure how exactly my argument is a 'wrong premise' or 'reeks of bad faith'. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:47, January 27, 2023 (EST)


<tt>*</tt>I will say one criticism to the proposer though; if you are going to merge the fighters, then you ''reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally'' should have done the same with the stages as well, as they have the same treatment as fighters but a lower degree of importance. I still support this proposal, but if it passes it means that this wiki will be treated inanimate, generic floors with a 3D background as more important than the characters you play as, which I guess is kind of a thing this wiki has as a whole for any game. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 17:21, January 26, 2023 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|Axii}}<br>
:A similar proposal will be made to account for the stages, provided this one passes. Playable characters don’t have any perceived importance over stages; both of these groups are gameplay features added consciously and with a clear goal. Obviously, in game design, you have to establish a hierarchy between the player and the elements in their environment, but that has no bearing on the fashion these subjects are documented on a wiki at all. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:14, January 26, 2023 (EST)
'''Deadline''': October 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT
I would like to point out that opposition is right that spirits, trophies and stickers should be trimmed. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 01:34, January 27, 2023 (EST)


===Merge "Yoshi (platform series)" and "Yoshi (puzzle series)" into "Yoshi (franchise)"===
====Support====
My last proposal has been declined, so [[User:Hewer|Hewer]] is right—a better idea will be to just merge both the "Yoshi (platform series)" and "Yoshi (puzzle series)" articles with the main "Yoshi (franchise)" article since the former is quite unclearly defined and movinf the latter to "Yoshi (series)" is a bad idea because that's easily confused with "Yoshi (franchise)".
#{{User|Axii}} ^
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} One or two other articles are fine, but having three separate articles in the <nowiki>{{about}}</nowiki> template at the top of the page is the point where a disambiguation page is ideal.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} We don't need to clutter the {{tem|About}} template.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo}} Frankly, I'd support bringing the requirement as low as 3. Per proposal.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br>
====Oppose====
'''Deadline''': February 2, 2023, 23:59 GMT
 
====Merge====
#{{User|Teh Other}} Per proposal
 
====Leave the way they are====


====Comments====
====Comments====
Do you have any examples of how many subjects would be affected by this change? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 10:52, September 29, 2024 (EDT)
:I don't think there's an easy way to tell, but I can't imagine it being too many. [[User:Axii|Axii]] ([[User talk:Axii|talk]]) 12:05, September 29, 2024 (EDT)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 20:19, October 1, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Wednesday, October 2nd, 00:21 GMT
Proposals can be new features, the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote(s) at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. If a proposal reaches its deadline and there is a tie for first place, then the proposal is extended for another week.
  10. If a proposal reaches its deadline and the first place option is ahead of the second place option by three or more votes, then the first place option must have over 50% approval to win. If the margin is only one or two votes, then the first place option must have at least 60% approval to win. If the required approval threshold is not met, then the proposal is extended for another week.
    • Use the {{proposal check}} tool to automate this calculation; see the template page for usage instructions and examples.
  11. Proposals can be extended a maximum of three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, then the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks (at the earliest).
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or canceled by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for writing guidelines and talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be canceled by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting, or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "October 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

Proposals concerning a single page or a limited group of pages are held on the most relevant talk page regarding the matter. Proposals dealing with a large amount of splits, merges, or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the subject page of the talk page it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Standardize sectioning for Super Mario series game articles, Nintendo101 (ended July 3, 2024)
^ NOTE: Not yet integrated for the New Super Mario Bros. games, the Super Mario Maker games, Super Mario Run, or Super Mario Bros. Wonder
Expand use of "rawsize" gallery class, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended July 19, 2024)
Create new sections for gallery pages to cover "unused/pre-release/prototype/etc." graphics separate from the ones that appear in the finalized games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 2, 2024)
Tag sections regarding the unofficially named planets/area in Super Mario Galaxy games with "Conjecture" and "Dev data" templates, GuntherBayBeee (ended September 10, 2024)
Create MarioWiki:WikiLove and WikiLove templates, Super Mario RPG (ended September 20, 2024)
Add film and television ratings to Template:Ratings, TheUndescribableGhost (ended October 1, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Allow separate articles for Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)'s subjects, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended August 3, 2024)
Split Bowser's Flame from Fire Breath, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)
Split Banana Peel from Banana, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Figure out how to handle {{classic}} and {{classic-link}} templates when discussing Mario Kart Tour classic courses

This wiki has two templates used to format classic courses in the Mario Kart series: {{classic}} and {{classic-link}}. These templates convert text like "3DS Shy Guy Bazaar" into a format that closer resembles the one seen in games, with the prefix being written as such, a prefix, and not part of the courses name. So "3DS Shy Guy Bazaar" becomes "3DS Shy Guy Bazaar". However, there's an exception this wiki seems to have regarding this template: classic courses in Mario Kart Tour.

This is because the game does not structure the title of courses in such a way: instead it writes the prefix as large as the rest of the name, so it's written as "3DS Shy Guy Bazaar". However, I feel this creates a lot of inconsistency and confusion here on this wiki. For example, the page for a course like 3DS Rock Rock Mountain, a course featured as a classic in and out of Tour structures fellow course names both ways, with and without the template, simply because of the game the classic course appears in. To make things more confusing, when a Tour section on a course's page discusses classic courses outside of Tour, it uses the template, as seen in a few course pages. Additionally, page titles for courses that are only classics in Tour still use a smaller font for the page name, such as GBA Lakeside Park. Finally, some courses in Tour don't even adhere to this rule that has been enforced before, such as Wii Maple Treeway.

(I cannot find the edit log, however I was informed by a moderator here that it is a rule that is enforced a while back)

So this proposal is asking for one thing: an enforcement to be decided on.

The options are simple:

  • Use the templates for all references to classic courses.
  • Not use the template when referring to classic courses in Tour.

RMX courses will not be affected by this since the "RMX" is established to be part of the course's name.

Proposer: YoYo (talk)
Deadline: October 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Use the templates for all classic course links

  1. YoYo (talk) per my proposal, I think that the template formats them in a way that distinguishes the prefix from course name, and I think consistency is important here.
  2. Tails777 (talk) I really don't think we need to be that accurate with the way things are written. Just because Tour doesn't have the system prefixes in a slightly smaller font, doesn't mean we have to follow in suit. Heck, when I removed some images from infoboxes and put them in respective sections, I kept using the {{classic}} templates regardless of which game section they were in. Why would the size of the font be that big of a deal? I think using the template for all classic courses is just the way to go.
  3. Ahemtoday (talk) I think being accurate to the text size parts of a name are written with is different from being accurate to the name itself — and I find the former kind of unnecessary.
  4. Jdtendo (talk) Per all.
  5. Jazama (talk) Per all
  6. SeanWheeler (talk) We should be consistent.

Do not use the templates for Mario Kart Tour classic course links

Comments

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Split articles for certain official single-game enemy behavior splits

In the early days, before Nintendo was really sure how they wanted to classify enemies, there were some splits that didn't stick - namely, behaviors that were initially unique to a specific subtype, and then became normal alternatives to the base enemies. I'm specifically talking about:

  • Sky Blooper - Blooper variant from Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
  • Upside-down Buzzy Beetle - Buzzy Beetle variant from Super Mario Bros. 3
  • Upside-down Spiny - Spiny variant from Super Mario Bros. 3
  • Scattering Blooper - Blooper Nanny variant from Super Mario Bros. 3
  • Upside-down Piranha - Piranha Plant variant from Super Mario Land

I make this mainly because the Mario Portal splits each of these for these games specifically, across language borders, despite being a newer source (which is notably a lot more than Boss Bass/Big Bertha gets, so that merge remains correct), along with Upside-down Piranha making the Smash Bros. Piranha Plant list; other instances of similar things occurring that have not (yet) been corroborated by a source like Portal (such as Tobipuku from New Super Mario Bros.) will not be counted. Now, I want to clarify something important: this split only covers the appearances where the official word treats them as distinct enemies. Random upside-down Buzzy Beetles and Piranha Plants in New Super Mario Bros. Wii are not counted, as they are not distinguished from their base species in any way in that game. I see this as similar to Fire Nipper Plant, another SMB3 enemy whose fire-breathing characteristics were given to normal Nipper Plants in a few later games.

I have a demo for these pages in the various sections of this page, along with stuff for the below proposal.

EDIT 9/28: Adding an option for only splitting the two Bloopers.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: October 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Scattering Support

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per
  2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per proposal.

Bloopers only, no upside-down!

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) I see no problem with this. Unlike the other proposed splits, normal Bloopers have not inherited the defining airborne traits of Sky Bloopers outside of the Super Mario Maker games, which breaks a lot of conventions for the sake of fun creative gameplay. I do not think it is the same situation as Upside-down Piranha Plant or Spiny.
  2. DryBonesBandit (talk) Agreed.
  3. Hewer (talk) Blooper proposal
  4. ThePowerPlayer (talk) If this Blooper can be split, then so can the ones listed here. On the other hand, the upside-down variants are splitting hairs. Do we split the Goombas from anti-gravity sections just because they're upside down?
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Second pick, per all.
  6. Jazama (talk) Per all
  7. OmegaRuby (talk) Per all.

Upside-down Oppose

  1. Arend (talk) Maybe a case could be made for Scattering Blooper, but Sky Blooper and Upside-down Piranha Plant also behave (nearly) identical to their regular counterparts. Not to mention that nearly all the regular versions of these enemies have retroactively gained attributes of these enemies too (Buzzy Beetles and Spinies can appear commonly walking on ceilings and dropping down in various games, Piranha Plants can pop out upside down from a ceiling pipe in various games, nearly all Bloopers encountered on land float above the ground; none of these are regarded as distinct variants in those later games), so it's a little weird to me if only those specific versions of enemies are regarded as separate entities but regular versions of these enemies adapting these attributes aren't; feels inconsistent and confusing for a reader.
  2. Axii (talk) Per Arend. I feel like it would be an unnecessary split. Nintendo doesn't refer to these enemies separately in any newer games. Sky Blooper may have had a chance, but Super Mario Maker clearly shows that they are just regular Bloopers. I can see Scattering Blooper being split in the future though.
  3. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per opposition.
  4. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.
  5. EvieMaybe (talk) i can see the case for scattering blooper and MAYBE sky blooper, but i don't think i agree with the philosophy behind the proposal.
  6. DrippingYellow (talk) The idea of splitting certain minor behavior differences in enemies, but only in certain games where they are given a specific adjective relating to the thing they do, honestly just sounds ridiculous. If you're going to split some of them, you might as well split all of them, lest you create a glaring inconsistency in the wiki's coverage of these enemy variants.
    Also keep in mind that these individual acknowledgements of upside-down enemies aren't consistent even between these similar-era games; Piranha Plants can be found upside-down as early as The Lost Levels and Super Mario Bros. 3, yet would be confusingly absent from your proposed "Upside-down Piranha Plant" article due to not being called "Upside-down Piranha Plants" (and also kind of throws a wrench into your theory that these were originally special variants before being merged into the main enemy). These upside-down enemies are only listed on Mario Portal when the game's respective manual also mentions them (with apparently a single exception in SMB3's Upside-down Spiny), suggesting less of a confirmation as species and more of an attempt to parallel existing material.
    The only potential exceptions I see here are the Bloopers, particularly the Sky Blooper with its actually distinct appearance. Though, if the red Koopa Troopa, an enemy that has had consistently has a different appearance and behavior from its green counterpart in all mainline games it has appeared in (the black-and-white SML2 with only the ledge-fearing green Koopa doesn't count due to there being no red Koopa to compare with), is too minor a difference to get an article, then how are these any different?
  7. Shoey (talk) Per all.
  8. Mario (talk) Some of these proposed splits are overkill.
  9. Sparks (talk) Per all.
  10. SeanWheeler (talk) Split enemies for one game each? Not unless we split everybody into singular game subpages like Smash Wiki's fighter pages.

#Hewer (talk) Not opposed to all of these (I'd probably support splitting Sky Blooper), but while I do generally like following official classification of things, having an article for Buzzy Beetles that were upside down in SMB3 specifically and no other game just feels silly and confusing.
#DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all.

Sky Comments

I understand the rationale, but Mario Portal (and most game material) also recognizes things like green-shelled and red-shelled Koopas as distinct from one another and they also have different behaviors from one another. That'd probably be a bigger proposal than you'd be interested in executing, but how would you feel on those types of enemies being split? I at least like the idea of Sky Blooper getting its own article on the face of it. - Nintendo101 (talk) 22:27, September 25, 2024 (EDT)

Those shouldn't be by virtue of the functional distinctions being inconsistent, especially when you get into things like Shy Guys. Most of them use (identifiers) too rather than actual naming differences. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:09, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
Fair (especially for Shy Guys), though generally, I'm pretty sure red-shelled Koopas mechanically are always the ones that turn when they reach an edge, whereas green-shelled ones don't.
What if, for those enemies, there was a similar scenario as with Koopa Shells, where there is one main article, but also smaller ones for Green Shells and Red Shells for scenarios where the shells have mechanical differences? We could have a main Koopa Troopa article, and then a Koopa Troopa (Green) and Koopa Troopa (Red). - Nintendo101 (talk) 23:50, September 25, 2024 (EDT)
You're only looking in terms of 2D platformers, there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:02, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
(I hope this is isn't too tangential - I appreciate your insight on this) I think the only 3D platformer with both Koopa Troopas is Super Mario Galaxy, and they still have mechanical differences from one another in those games.
For platformers and spin-offs where colors are only cosmetic, I think it would be fine for them to share a single Koopa Troopa article (again, similar setup to Koopa Shell). But I understand the resistance to that idea, because it could be messy and difficult to curate. - Nintendo101 (talk) 00:09, September 26, 2024 (EDT)
And there's the black-and-white Super Mario Land 2, where the art shows green, but the behavior's more like typical red ones. Then we get into Paratroopas, where originally green hopped or moved back-and-forth and red moved up-and-down, then games like Super Mario World have red ones moving horizontally or green ones moving vertically. And then there's Cheep Cheep - swimming Cheep Cheeps' colors in SMB1 were purely cosmetic, then SMB3 had lots of behavioral variation among red-colored ones and only one behavior for green-colored ones. I think keeping the "color" ones grouped unless a very notable difference is present (like the Paper Mario and Yoshi's Story versions of Black Shy Guy) is the best way to go in that regard. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:23, September 26, 2024 (EDT)

@Opposition I see this as a similar case to Gloomba only covering the blue underground Goombas when they are officially split, or Headbonk Goomba only covering headbonking Goombas when they are officially split. Same for the large-sized Chain Chomps and Wigglers sometimes being considered "big" versions and sometimes considered standard. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:09, September 26, 2024 (EDT)

I see those as a bit different since they have functional or other differences specific to those games, blue Goombas aren't normally stronger than the standard versions. As far as I can tell, the only way Upside-down Buzzy Beetle is more of a variant in SMB3 than it is any other game is in name. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:52, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
The fact that Portal, which is recent, bothers to split them for those games specifically rather than ignore it in favor of following what later games do makes me think this is still valid. Especially since Upside-Down Piranhas were also differentiated in Viridi's Piranha Plant list in Smash Ultimate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:09, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
Technically, do we know whether Viridi was referring to specifically upside-down Piranha Plants from Super Mario Land, rather than just upside-down ones in general? Not sure if it's different in Japanese, but their placement in the list is notably odd especially if it was meant to be referring to just Mario Land, as they are the last variant listed before the three Petey Piranhas, rather than the roughly release date order the list mostly uses. As for Mario Portal, Nintendo101's point about red and green Koopa Troopas compels me to ignore that. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:12, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
They're the only ones that are named as such, so yes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:36, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
Uhhh, I'd find sources other than Super Mario Land and the Mario Portal before I confidently make claims like that. Personally, I doubt that these games are the only instances in which the Japanese word for "upside-down" immediately precedes the name of an enemy that happens to be upside-down. DrippingYellow (talk) 01:46, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
Treating it as a label, there are none. Prose, perhaps, but not as a deliberate label. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:03, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
Again, sources???? The only evidence I could find vaguely supporting you (for the Piranha Plant in Lost Levels at least) is in a scan of the Japanese Super Mario All-Stars guide, which is after you claim they dropped the concept. DrippingYellow (talk) 11:47, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
What Portal is doing is enough, IMO. It shows their "current interpretation" is that they are different enough for a separate listing (without the parentheses, even) specifically in the respective games I listed, but not elsewhere. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:42, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

@DrippingYellow - Technically, only the Upside-Down Piranha Plants in SML have the point bonus, which is part of how the game defines its enemies. Also, that "paralleling existing material" also doesn't split color, so this doesn't seem inconsistent to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:36, September 27, 2024 (EDT)

...Are you seriously trying to argue that the point value of the enemy is the clincher here? As though enemies are supposed to stay exactly the same with no changes between games? Maybe the developers of SML thought you deserved more of a reward for landing a Superball shot on these upside-down enemies, but how does that specifically support them being considered a unique variant of Piranha Plant in only Super Mario Land? And sure, they called the red Koopa Troopas "Koopa Troopa (Red)" or whatever instead of "Red Koopa Troopa", but simply having a unique name is not the end-all be-all of whether something gets an article or not (Black Shy Guy (Yoshi's Story), the countless articles that we had to give a conjectural name, to name a few).
The problem is simply that versions of enemies that are visually idential and behaviorally similar to their normal counterpart usually don't get split, regardless of whether they have a unique name or not. And somehow, what you're proposing is even more bizarre than that; that these specific enemies in these specific games are Upside-down with a capital "U", and should be split, and the others, lowercase "u", with the exact same behavior, attributes, and appearance, should not. DrippingYellow (talk) 01:46, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
I see this as equivalent to Fire Nipper Plant, which only appeared once in SMB3, and later RPGs gave normal Nipper Plants identical fire breath abilities. And the point value is a notable difference in function. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:03, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
Even if these truly are separate listed enemies in only these specific games, this is more like the Grinder/Ukiki situation if anything; two completely different enemies from different series that were eventually merged, and we treat them as the same thing. No "Grinder" article that only covers the monkeys in the Yoshi's Island games and not Wooly World. This situation is even simpler than that debacle if you ask me, as we know exactly what to look for in terms of defining traits (that is, they are upside-down). See also: the Helper Monkey article, with all of the uniquely-named-in-Japan variants merged together for the sake of simplicity. DrippingYellow (talk) 11:47, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
The monkeys are mainly a snarl because YNI used both (O-saru-san in-game for a level name, Ucky in the guidebook), but in that case the "two separate enemies" weren't in a single game alongside each-other separately, so that situation is still different. There's also a reverse situation related to that, where Big Cheep Cheep lost its funny big mouth and its original design was eventually given to its derivative Cheep Chomp (in the same game that gave Grinder's design to Ukiki). Now, I do get where you're coming from, but I find this situation clean enough to enact this. Meanwhile, on the Triforce Wiki, I list both of the "Zora" designs together, while Nintendo back-and-forths on whether they're different, the same, or different-looking clans of the same species (which as of Echoes of Wisdom, is their current depiction) - I find that to be too much confusing mingling to bother attempting to split it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:45, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
I will say, Nintendo is inconsistent with whether they list colored variants as separate subjects or lumped together, but in the modern era (the mid-2010s onward), they generally do if there are mechanical differences between them. For example, the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia and Mario Portal list red and green Koopa Troopas separately for every game where they both appear (as well as yellow and blue ones in Super Mario World), as well as the Kadokawa guidebook for Super Mario Bros. Wonder. They do not do this for enemies that appear in multiple colors but have no mechanical differences between them, like Biddybuds, Para-Biddybuds, or Lava Bubbles in Super Mario 3D World (of note, they do recognize blue and red Lava Bubbles separately in Super Mario Galaxy 2, where they do have mechanical and behavioral differences with each other. I should also note that I have seen Super Mario 3D Land Biddybud figures sold with color denotations in their listed names in Japan, but it makes sense to do that for physical merchandise).
I do not know the best approach for Super Mario Wiki. My gut feeling is that it would be best to stick to the systematics employed by the source material, and if that material is listing enemies separately by behavior or color or size, then it is not inherently unreasonable for them to get a dedicated article. What constitutes an "enemy" is not innate - it does not necessarily mean they are members of different species or anything like that (as apparent with Giant Goombas, which can split into Hefty Goombas, then normal Goombas, indicating all Goombas have the capacity to mature into Giant Goombas and would be members of the same exact species, but they are not the same enemy). But our source material is inconsistent and fluid, adjusting based on the specific functions of individual games, as is the case with Lava Bubbles in SMG2 and SM3DW. They have flipflopped with whether they recognize different colors as separate enemies or the same ones (such as here, in the bestiary for New Super Mario Bros. from 2006 that lumps Koopa Troopas together) but they are also inconsistent in contemporary sources. In the encyclopedia, Big Deep Cheep is listed as a distinct enemy in the first New Super Mario Bros. and New Super Mario Bros. 2 - it is lumped with the smaller one in New Super Mario Bros. Wii even though it has not undergone any behavioral changes, and this is in the same book. Dragoneels are lumped as one enemy in the New Super Mario Bros. U section, even though there are fast, extremely long red Dragoneels and stout, slow-moving blue Dragoneels, which seems as valid a distinction as green and red Koopa Troopas. In the Kadokawa Super Mario Bros. Wonder excerpt I linked to above, it recognizes Red Koopa Troopas and Red Koopa Paratroopas as separate enemies from the green ones, but it lists brown and purple Trompettes as one enemy, as well as yellow and blue Konks. This is despite the fact that the difference between the brown and purple Trombettes is that the latter turns around when it reaches the edge of a platform... just like red Koopa Troopas in the same game. - Nintendo101 (talk) 13:18, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

@ThePowerPlayer - Well those aren't given a different name, especially not in a consistent manner across multiple sources, which was the crux here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:37, September 29, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler: What? The proposal is about splitting particular enemy variants. It has nothing to do with what you said. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:24, September 30, 2024 (EDT)

Split articles for the alternate-named reskins from All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros.

All Night Nippon: Super Mario Bros. has various alternatively named graphic swaps of things from Super Mario Bros., most of which relate to the cast and iconography of the show it is based on. These include:

  • OkaP and Pakkun OkaP replacing Goomba and Piranha Plant (split demoed here alongside stuff from the above proposal
  • The Hiranya replacing the Star
  • The various celebrities replacing the Toads (though admittedly the bonus one is unknown)

These are meant to be seen as different things from the originals, so the current system of lumping them in with them is awkward to say the least. The only real outlier here is the NBS logo replacing the axe, because from what I can tell Katsu Yoshida never named the eye.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: October 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Sunplaza Support - all subjects

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per
  2. Ahemtoday (talk) Consistent with how we handle, say, Deku Babas in Mario Kart 8.
  3. Shoey (talk) I've always said the wiki needs more weirdo articles.
  4. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per. Don't see why not. Deku Baba is a good parallel.
  5. Mariuigi Khed (talk) Per.
  6. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.
  7. EvieMaybe (talk) i always thought we dont give ANNSMB enough coverage here. per all
  8. DrippingYellow (talk) I'm tempted to say this seems like unnecessary splitting of information, but I guess the information would still also be present in the main article, wouldn't it? This seems fine.
  9. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  10. Camwoodstock (talk) Makes sense, and perhaps this could finally crack the mystery of who that unknown celebrity is! Per all.
  11. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per all, especially on Deku Baba and Keese.
  12. Jazama (talk) Per all
  13. SeanWheeler (talk) Those look nothing like the original enemies.

Sunplaza Support - only enemies

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per

OkaP Oppose

  1. LinkTheLefty (talk) I'd personally not want to split these enemies since doing so is practically a degree away from re-splitting Super Mario World's "Fall" graphic swaps (and the Advance 2 exclusives don't have their own names).

Katsu-eye Comments

Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles - take 2

Since the last proposal, other proposals have cropped up which sought to trim excess appellatives and nicknames from the titles of various character articles. As a result of these proposals, which saw little to no contention, the following changes were made:

  • Professor Elvin Gadd was moved to "Professor E. Gadd".
  • Baby Donkey Kong was moved to "Baby DK".
  • Crossover characters with formerly descriptive titles (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog, Fox McCloud) were moved to the shortened forms of their names (e.g. "Sonic", "Fox").

As well, before the aforementioned proposal:

Vigilant gamers and game lore extraordinaires will know why these changes were made: the short forms of these subjects' names have been much more prominent and recent in their relevant official works, and their display titles across the site did not reflect this predilection. The Koopalings, as well as Princess Daisy, are now the outliers in this specific regard--but while the sentiment against moving Daisy's name to its more common shortened form was the inconsistency that would arise with Princess Peach using her long title, I do not recall the Koopalings, as a group, having some special counterpart that would create a similar perceived inconsistency.

Yeah, Larry was called "Larry Koopa" in a specific line of dialogue within Smash Ultimate, in a decade-and-a-half old licensed player's guide, and probably some 2010's toy that I'm sure users will name here in the comments, but the fact is, his short name has been promoted front-and-center within all of the games he has appeared from Mario Kart 8 back in 2014 until today, many of which are namedropped in the previous proposal. Same with his 6 siblings.

Besides, MarioWiki:Naming states plainly:

  • "the name of an article should correspond to the most commonly used English name of the subject"
  • "the more commonly used modern name should be used as the title"

and I believe it's only sensible for the wiki to mirror the more recent developments of the franchise in how a subject is introduced to readers.

Affected pages include:

Note:

  • This proposal targets only page titles. Even if it's a pass, articles can still acknowledge the full forms of these characters where appropriate, such as in Koopaling article openers.
  • If this proposal passes, the templates in Category:Koopaling content templates become obsolete and are to be abolished.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: October 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) per proposal, and per the former proposal as well, which I encourage participants to peruse. (Though, this time, with no multi-option shenanigans.)
  2. Axii (talk) Per con Carne (like the last time).
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) This may be controversial, but I think this is fine and in-line with our policies. These characters have largely only been referred to by their first names since Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. This does not mean Ludwig's full name is not "Ludwig von Koopa" or that it does not see occasional use in marketing and in games - it just means the title of the article is just Ludwig. I personally do not think that is as systematically harmful or erroneous as previous proposals seemed to have suggested. Lots of reference material does this. For example, the name of the Mark Twain article on Wikipedia is not "Samuel L. Clemens" in any language.
  4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Needless to say, there have been a few changes since the last time this was proposed.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. It seems only fair as we clamp down more and more on these elongated page titles.
  6. Tails777 (talk) Supported once and I'll do it again. Per proposal.
  7. Hewer (talk) Per all. I never really understood the main argument against this last time ("the full names still exist", as though that means they should automatically take priority over their more common short counterparts).
  8. Technetium (talk) Per all.
  9. DesaMatt (talk) Per all von Koopa.
  10. EvieMaybe (talk) while i don't agree with the de-title-ification that's been going on, if we're going to do it we might as well be consistent with it.
  11. ThePowerPlayer (talk) The fact that there exists an entire category of templates just to circumvent a standard that violates MarioWiki:Naming is concerning, to say the least.
  12. Jdtendo (talk) Per all.
  13. YoYo (talk) per all
  14. BMfan08 (talk) Per all.
  15. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per all, I know I opposed this before but I've changed my mind after several similar proposals since then have passed.
  16. Jazama (talk) Per all
  17. OmegaRuby (talk) Per Koopall

Oppose

  1. SeanWheeler (talk) No. Okay, no. I'm trying to make a case for undoing the proposal that shortened the Sonic characters' names. I've got a strong case for Fox McCloud in that not only was his last name mentioned in every Smash game, his costume in Super Mario Maker is the "Fox McCloud" costume, not the "Fox" costume. And I know that if this proposal passes, Peach and Daisy are next.

Comments

To clarify my position on Daisy, it was not because I thought the proposal was unreasonable. To me, an analogous situation would be drafting a proposal to only change the name of Iggy Koopa's article and none of other Koopalings. Maybe others don't see Peach and Daisy as related to each other as sibling characters like the Koopalings, but that's how I feel at least. I would receive a proposal that included both Peach and Daisy differently. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:31, September 27, 2024 (EDT)

I reworded that point about the Daisy vs. Peach situation to sound less like a potshot. Sorry. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:34, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
I thought it was funny :) Just wanted to clarify my position. - Nintendo101 (talk) 15:37, September 27, 2024 (EDT)
I appreciate that you took it in good humor, but I've made a point that I'll try and be more careful with the way I word my statements. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:41, September 27, 2024 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler: If Mario Maker costume names were the decider, Mr. Resetti would just be "Resetti", and indeed, Princess Peach and Princess Daisy would just be Peach and Daisy. But the main thing the Fox page covers isn't a costume in Mario Maker, it's his more common, prominent, and recent Smash appearances, in which the main name used to refer to him is always just "Fox". (Also, Sonic's Mario Maker costume is just called "Sonic", not "Sonic the Hedgehog".) Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 09:03, September 30, 2024 (EDT)

It's not just the Mario Maker costumes. He's been referred to as "Fox McCloud" in Melee's trophies and Ultimate's spirits, plus in Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:22, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
And he's been referred to as "Fox" in his actual role as a playable character in every single Smash game. As I've repeated countless times in our previous debates, this isn't an argument of whether the full name exists, it only matters which name is more common. Please stop cherry-picking the times when the full name was used in profiles and such and acting like that automatically outweighs the more common name. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:56, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
I feel like these proposals shortening names are meant to take the "common name" part of the naming policy to it's literal conclusion. The article names were fine before they were changed by proposals, and now we're changing very distinctive article names to generic names. That's not good for disambiguation. The shortened names could be used as redirects, but we are discouraged from linking redirects, making me confused why we have redirects at all. I mean, link templates for the Koopalings? In November, I'm going to make a proposal to encourage linking redirects. My proposal to overturn the crossover character naming was only delayed by me not having unlocked the Sonic Character Book at the Secret Shop in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games. Yes, I was going to bank on the full names being used somewhere in the games being enough to outweigh the player names. Are Peach and Daisy are going to lose their princess titles for the sake of following the naming conventions? I think the naming rule should be changed. Problem is, I can't figure out how to word it in a way to have the pages moved back to the names I want. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:55, September 30, 2024 (EDT)
This proposal is trying to get rid of those Koopaling templates, though. We have redirects for search purposes, not for linking. And why shouldn't the common name policy be taken to its "literal conclusion"? Are you saying you'd rather we enforced it inconsistently? That we should only enforce it when you personally happen to prefer the common name? We shouldn't ignore official sources just so that we can use the names we prefer. Also (another thing I've repeated endlessly), calling these names "generic" is subjective at best and just false at worst. Nothing about "Larry" makes it inherently a more "generic" name than "Mario" or "Pauline", and if Nintendo is content to use the shorter names to identify the characters, we have no reason not to follow suit. "But Peach and Daisy" is also a bad counterargument when several of the users supporting this proposal also supported the Daisy proposal, myself included. Hewer A Hamburger in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. (talk · contributions · edit count) 06:07, October 1, 2024 (EDT)

Overturn the proposal that resulted in the deletion of Category:User eo (category for speakers of Esperanto)

Myself, I don't care about this language, and needless to say, neither do most people on the planet, but I take issue with the proposal that had it removed in the first place for a few reasons.

  • The proposal argues that this language "is not a real language", that "nobody really picked it up", and likens it to the fictional language of Klingon. Despite its status as a constructed language, it is, in fact, very much a real language intended and created to be functional. It has a(n admittedly small) number of speakers across the planet, some of whom may well be potential editors on this wiki for all we know. The comparison to Klingon, which was created with an artistic purpose, is misleading.
  • The proposer was outed as an extremist (read up on the details at your own risk) who seemingly was planning to have other language-based user categories removed, as he followed up with another proposal targeting the Georgian user category. The wiki's policies outline that we shouldn't assume bad faith in users, but given the circumstances here, I hope you'll allow me the assumption that this user had ulterior motives in their little curatorial project, namely in altering the wiki ever so slightly according to their outlooks. Proposal failed and the user was banned for their concerning behavior, preventing further such proposals from being made.

Now, as you'd expect, the Esperanto user category certainly never saw much use--in fact, only one user employed it as of 2014 (archive.org) and even then only listed Esperanto as a second language (archive.org) (though, the very point of Esperanto was to be an auxillary language between people who don't speak the same native language). That user, who goes by Pakkun (talk), has since taken the category off their page, so you could argue that this proposal lacks a tangible purpose as "User eo" would be dead on arrival should it be recreated.

The point of this proposal, however, isn't to recreate this language immediately; it is to negate the proposal that currently prevents its creation if someone ever considers they'd derive some use from it. This community should be open to anyone regardless of their cultural background. The previous proposal is contrary to that.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: October 5, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) per proposal.
  2. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Honestly, we would be down for more Conlangs to have user categories. We can't imagine the overlap of, say, Vötgil speakers to Mario Wiki users is very large, but like, in regards to a strictly English wiki, the Conlang categories in particular are just for-fun categories at the end of the day, and who the hey are we to expressly prohibit other people's fun? And even in the most generous reading of the events, it still feels like a bit of warped priorities when some categories have been in need of reforms for awhile now (sorry about the Thieves category thing, we're still thinking of that and honestly at this point we wouldn't mind someone else chipping in with that) and haven't gotten them, but we have an entire proposal dedicated to... Deleting a category for Esperanto speakers??? (And for the record, this was back when Category:Canines was called Dogs--something something, obligatory mention of Penkoon.)
  4. Shadow2 (talk) We DID this? wtf??
  5. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal.
  6. DryBonesBandit (talk) Per proposal.
  7. Hewer (talk) Per proposal.
  8. Arend (talk) With the provided context, something about Trig Jegman's proposals rubs me the wrong way. If it's true that he was trying to gradually remove other languages, where would he stop? He stated that Esperanto and Gregorian are languages not supported by Nintendo (a weak argument IMO, as Nintendo =/= this wiki), and not widely spoken, so would he first try to get all small-spoken languages removed? Would he eventually try to get larger languages removed just because Nintendo doesn't support these languages? Would he eventually go even further and get even languages that are supported by Nintendo removed because they're not as widely spoken as other languages? Would he eventually make it so that English is the only language remaining? Would he then remove that category too because if that's the only language category for users, then what's the point of keeping it? Or worse, is this a ploy to recognize who is native to other languages and would he try to get non-English users banned so only English-speaking users have access to the wiki (and then remove the English category)? ...Uh...fearmongering aside, per all.
  9. Waluigi Time (talk) No harm having it if people want to use it.
  10. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  11. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all.
  12. Axii (talk) Per all.
  13. Mario (talk) The more the Marior. That older proposal was dumb.
  14. Jazama (talk) Per all
  15. SeanWheeler (talk) I'm not a fan of banning users for off-site drama, especially when it's political. But if his proposal was bigoted, then maybe it should be overturned.
  16. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all, especially Sean. This proposal was asinine at best, in retrospect, and harmful at worst. And that's coming from a man who doesn't have full context as to what happened.
  17. Shy Guy on Wheels (talk) Per all. That category never hurt nobody.
  18. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.

Oppose

Comments

The real question is if we can have a Klingon category (as a certain other editor who is no longer with us due to concerning behavior mentioned on that proposal). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:11, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

Up for debate whether user categories can have some basis in fiction. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:16, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
We think that Conlangs in general should just be allowed, just because it both feels really, really weird to try to police what Conlangs "count" as languages, and because the idea of focusing even more proposals on such a for-fun topic feels.... A little too much, when that effort is best used elsewhere. ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 18:14, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

We should be open for Inklingese and Smurf. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 20:24, September 28, 2024 (EDT)

Per Arend. --A Boo hiding and revealing itself. FanOfYoshi Splunkin model from New Super Mario Bros. 05:50, September 30, 2024 (EDT)

Lower the requirement for a disambiguation page from 5 to 4

As of now, the requirement for a disambiguation page's creation is five pages:

"If there are five or more pages which could be reasonably associated with a given name, then a disambiguation page must be created" (MarioWiki:Naming)

This rule feels needlessly restrictive, considering the amount of clutter links make at the very top of the page. "For a minigame in the WarioWare series, see X. For an object in Super Mario Odyssey found in the Luncheon Kingdom, see Y. For an underwater enemy from...", you get the idea. If this proposal passes, the threshold on MarioWiki:Naming will be lowered from 5 to 4.

Proposer: Axii (talk)
Deadline: October 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Axii (talk) ^
  2. ThePowerPlayer (talk) One or two other articles are fine, but having three separate articles in the {{about}} template at the top of the page is the point where a disambiguation page is ideal.
  3. SeanWheeler (talk) We don't need to clutter the {{About}} template.
  4. Killer Moth (talk) Per proposal.
  5. Pseudo (talk) Frankly, I'd support bringing the requirement as low as 3. Per proposal.

Oppose

Comments

Do you have any examples of how many subjects would be affected by this change? — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 10:52, September 29, 2024 (EDT)

I don't think there's an easy way to tell, but I can't imagine it being too many. Axii (talk) 12:05, September 29, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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