MarioWiki talk:Canonicity

I wholeheartedly disagree with this article's mentioning of "alternate-canon." I have always accepted the Mario cartoons, comics, and video games as one in the same canon and I know many of my friends and other fans hold the same opinion. I don't think anyone has the right to write off the other Mario sources as a canon separate from the games, especially when Nintendo themselves claim that they like to leave it to the player to decide for themselves. I think this article should be reworded, maybe renaming "alternate-canon" to "debatable canon" so as to make it more neutral. -- Some Guy

Is the movie also canon then? -- Son of Suns

Regardless, I have changed the wording to say alternate-canon material has an unknown level of canon in the video game realm. I like the word alternate-canon, as these mediums often provide an alternative background to the characters. -- Son of Suns

What about comics, books, and the Mario Movie? Are they like the Show? Paper Jorge (Talk·Contribs)

I'm guessing so. Ya' know, I used to think the Valiant Comic's Mario comics and the cartoons took place in the same continuity. :) -- Sir Grodus

Wow, I didn't expect this to become a policy.--Knife (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2007 (EST)

Congratulations it did. Paper Jorge (Talk·Contribs)

Each comic, book, movie, and cartoon series is like their own little universe, all distinct from each other and the video game universe. -- Son of Suns

I think the position as to the canonicity of remakes should be a little more complex than currently considered. For exmample, what is canon, the original version of Super Mario Bros.? Super Mario All-Stars' version? Super Mario Bros. Deluxe? If the most modern one was the canon, then Deluxe would be it; yet in a throwback to the original color schemes, Super Paper Mario uses the Mario and Luigi colors of the original Super Mario Bros. (when using the Pill Pals or the Mega Star); furthermore, the original Paper Mario also affirmed the fact that Luigi does, in fact, have a white suit. Thus, the remakes would not be more canon than the original if canon sequels acknowledge the original's depiction of something and not the remake. We have yet to see how this affects a game like Super Mario 64, for which the remake was radically different. Finally, how does one consider the Mario sport and party titles in relation to the platformers and/or RPGs? Paper Mario and TTYD do acknowledge the general actions themselves, but they do not acknowledge specifically the events portrayed in those games; other than that, those spin-off titles are never referred to in the RPGs and platformers. - Jean de Pied

Made some changes to reflect what should be said in the article. Remakes are as canonical as the original games - they are simply retellings. This should have been changed a long time ago. Also, any title, regardless of genre, has high canonical value if it was produced by Nintendo. -- Son of Suns

Official Nintendo Seal

In light of the fact that Nintendo has used two different seals throughout their history, (see Wikipedia or compare a modern and retro title) I suggest we remove the note about the Official Nintendo Seal being a method to determine canonicity. The first seal, you'll remember, only applied to Nintendo games on Nintendo sysetems. The new one is more inclusive, allowing for movies and other forms of media to be included. Basically, as it stands anything released before the new seal is Nintendo's way of saying, "This will work on your system," not, "We approve this game into the Mario canon." As such, we shouldn't be using the first seal to determine the latter. Stumpers! 16:27, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

I would have to agree with that, a bit. The seal stands for official games made by Nintendo. But it also stands for "This game is good quality". Heck, Nintendo even uses it in toys related to Mario or Nintendo. I agree, we shouldn't use the seal for that. Paper Jorge ( Talk·Contributions)·

Right. It's a claim to quality in both cases, and to say it is more is conjecture. Stumpers! 16:43, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

I agree too, but does that mean we can now include Hotel Mario and other third-party produced games equal to the stright-edge Nintendo games? Personally, I don't think we should be saying they're less important anyway. - Walkazo

That's right. Any game with a story can now be put in the biography. Stumpers! 13:56, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Alternate Canon

Up above Son of Suns commented that "alternate canon" is to mean that we don't know for sure that the source connects to the video games. Wrong for two reasons: First, we don't know that all of the video games happen in the same canon. It's just as likely for Paper Mario not part of the "main" canon as it is for "The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!" The only thing separating them is the fact that people who wrote this, like Son of Suns, didn't like the show and didn't take the time to sit down with it, discover the real story behind it, and notice that all it is is a "lost adventures" between Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 2 USA. It doesn't perfectly line up, but then again, contradictions much greater than those seen in the Super Show exist all over the Marioverse, video game and otherwise. Secondly, and this is what's more important and fixable: people are taking alternate canon to mean "alternate universe." CrystalYoshi for example made comments on several talk pages to that extent, citing this page. I had to tell him that it was a fanon term, but now that I look closely at the talk page, I see that it isn't fanon: Son of Suns just used the fancy wording "alternate canon" instead of writing out, "sources which have not been referenced in the central video games," Why? I don't know. But, I have a hunch that he didn't follow that arguement because it would mean that games like Paper Mario, which aren't referenced in Super Mario Sunshine or Galaxy, would then become, "sources which have not been referenced in the central video games."

So here's what I'm calling for: we stop the use of alternate canon on this page and specify Son of Suns' publicized intention, "sources of questionable canon." After that, we work on removing all speculation from this page, including the fact that any source can be of questionable canon. Does this mean we're going to have to call the movie canon? Yes and no: I've also dug deeper into the movie, and guess what? It's connection to the Marioverse is spelled out in the first ten minutes of the film and we've all looked over it: the narrator clearly uses the term, "What if" to the extent of, "What if the dinosaurs were banished to an alternate dimension?" In other words, its a what-if scenario. Whether it's a what-if scenario for the non-fictional world we live in, or if it's a what-if scenario for the Marioverse doesn't matter, it's still not connected to the main plot. Everything else though, needs re-examination. Stumpers! 14:07, 30 July 2008 (EDT)