MarioWiki talk:Canonicity

I wholeheartedly disagree with this article's mentioning of "alternate-canon." I have always accepted the Mario cartoons, comics, and video games as one in the same canon and I know many of my friends and other fans hold the same opinion. I don't think anyone has the right to write off the other Mario sources as a canon separate from the games, especially when Nintendo themselves claim that they like to leave it to the player to decide for themselves. I think this article should be reworded, maybe renaming "alternate-canon" to "debatable canon" so as to make it more neutral. -- Some Guy

Is the movie also canon then? -- Son of Suns

Regardless, I have changed the wording to say alternate-canon material has an unknown level of canon in the video game realm. I like the word alternate-canon, as these mediums often provide an alternative background to the characters. -- Son of Suns

What about comics, books, and the Mario Movie? Are they like the Show? Paper Jorge (Talk·Contribs)

I'm guessing so. Ya' know, I used to think the Valiant Comic's Mario comics and the cartoons took place in the same continuity. :) -- Sir Grodus

Wow, I didn't expect this to become a policy.--Knife (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2007 (EST)

Congratulations it did. Paper Jorge (Talk·Contribs)

Each comic, book, movie, and cartoon series is like their own little universe, all distinct from each other and the video game universe. -- Son of Suns

I think the position as to the canonicity of remakes should be a little more complex than currently considered. For exmample, what is canon, the original version of Super Mario Bros.? Super Mario All-Stars' version? Super Mario Bros. Deluxe? If the most modern one was the canon, then Deluxe would be it; yet in a throwback to the original color schemes, Super Paper Mario uses the Mario and Luigi colors of the original Super Mario Bros. (when using the Pill Pals or the Mega Star); furthermore, the original Paper Mario also affirmed the fact that Luigi does, in fact, have a white suit. Thus, the remakes would not be more canon than the original if canon sequels acknowledge the original's depiction of something and not the remake. We have yet to see how this affects a game like Super Mario 64, for which the remake was radically different. Finally, how does one consider the Mario sport and party titles in relation to the platformers and/or RPGs? Paper Mario and TTYD do acknowledge the general actions themselves, but they do not acknowledge specifically the events portrayed in those games; other than that, those spin-off titles are never referred to in the RPGs and platformers. - Jean de Pied

Made some changes to reflect what should be said in the article. Remakes are as canonical as the original games - they are simply retellings. This should have been changed a long time ago. Also, any title, regardless of genre, has high canonical value if it was produced by Nintendo. -- Son of Suns

Official Nintendo Seal

In light of the fact that Nintendo has used two different seals throughout their history, (see Wikipedia or compare a modern and retro title) I suggest we remove the note about the Official Nintendo Seal being a method to determine canonicity. The first seal, you'll remember, only applied to Nintendo games on Nintendo sysetems. The new one is more inclusive, allowing for movies and other forms of media to be included. Basically, as it stands anything released before the new seal is Nintendo's way of saying, "This will work on your system," not, "We approve this game into the Mario canon." As such, we shouldn't be using the first seal to determine the latter. Stumpers! 16:27, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

I would have to agree with that, a bit. The seal stands for official games made by Nintendo. But it also stands for "This game is good quality". Heck, Nintendo even uses it in toys related to Mario or Nintendo. I agree, we shouldn't use the seal for that. Paper Jorge ( Talk·Contributions)·

Right. It's a claim to quality in both cases, and to say it is more is conjecture. Stumpers! 16:43, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

I agree too, but does that mean we can now include Hotel Mario and other third-party produced games equal to the stright-edge Nintendo games? Personally, I don't think we should be saying they're less important anyway. - Walkazo

That's right. Any game with a story can now be put in the biography. Stumpers! 13:56, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Alternate Canon

Up above Son of Suns commented that "alternate canon" is to mean that we don't know for sure that the source connects to the video games. Wrong for two reasons: First, we don't know that all of the video games happen in the same canon. It's just as likely for Paper Mario not part of the "main" canon as it is for "The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!" The only thing separating them is the fact that people who wrote this, like Son of Suns, didn't like the show and didn't take the time to sit down with it, discover the real story behind it, and notice that all it is is a "lost adventures" between Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 2 USA. It doesn't perfectly line up, but then again, contradictions much greater than those seen in the Super Show exist all over the Marioverse, video game and otherwise. Secondly, and this is what's more important and fixable: people are taking alternate canon to mean "alternate universe." CrystalYoshi for example made comments on several talk pages to that extent, citing this page. I had to tell him that it was a fanon term, but now that I look closely at the talk page, I see that it isn't fanon: Son of Suns just used the fancy wording "alternate canon" instead of writing out, "sources which have not been referenced in the central video games," Why? I don't know. But, I have a hunch that he didn't follow that arguement because it would mean that games like Paper Mario, which aren't referenced in Super Mario Sunshine or Galaxy, would then become, "sources which have not been referenced in the central video games."

So here's what I'm calling for: we stop the use of alternate canon on this page and specify Son of Suns' publicized intention, "sources of questionable canon." After that, we work on removing all speculation from this page, including the fact that any source can be of questionable canon. Does this mean we're going to have to call the movie canon? Yes and no: I've also dug deeper into the movie, and guess what? It's connection to the Marioverse is spelled out in the first ten minutes of the film and we've all looked over it: the narrator clearly uses the term, "What if" to the extent of, "What if the dinosaurs were banished to an alternate dimension?" In other words, its a what-if scenario. Whether it's a what-if scenario for the non-fictional world we live in, or if it's a what-if scenario for the Marioverse doesn't matter, it's still not connected to the main plot. Everything else though, needs re-examination. Stumpers! 14:07, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Why don't we run a bulldozer over this page and rename it "Guide to place the games in a good order"? --Blitzwing 16:24, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

I like the bulldozer idea. Either your name or, "Page Organization" would work, I think. Maybe we can just merge this with, MarioWiki:Chronology. Stumpers! 16:31, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Merging sounds good; the two pages are practically the same anyway: this one deals with what section to put what information, Chronology deals with what order to put the information in those sections. I still think the TV show, Movie, Comics and all that jazz should be seperated from the games, otherwise it'll probably confuse people. I also think we should consider merging the sports/party/racing games in with the major titles too: lots of them have valid plots anyway. - Walkazo 18:38, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Yup, it's been my belief that readers will see the heading, "Bibleography" and expect to hear about all events in the order in which they happened. So, what I would think is that the biography should be about the events of a game. So, you would mention the fact that Mario once again went to play tennis in Mario Power Tennis, and there he thwarted Bowser, Wario, and Waluigi. However, I don't think it is necesary to expand on Mario's play style (all around, 108 m/h serve, etc.) in this section. You could have a separate section for that down below so that the information would not have to be repeated for each incarnation of Mario Tennis. Mario Party, of course, always has its own storyline and should definately be noted fully each time rather than be stuffed at the bottom. Of course, if we do that, wouldn't it be more confusing for readers NOT to have comics, TV shows, etc. in their proper places? Stumpers! 22:27, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

The problem is, a timeline of any kind would also be suspect to a canon ruling, which brings us right back to square one. I remain that the best course of action is to do away with both the Canonicity and Chronology polices and just run with a 'all games are created equal' mentality. Over thinking this has caused enough problems around here. -- Chris 19:48, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

We are saying all games are created equally (except SSB, because that's clearly seperate), but it's the other media that are the problem. - Walkazo 20:05, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

About the sports: There's already sections for stats (or at least, there should be), so only including the plot's a given. About the mixed-media: Some things like the TV series and most comics could be fit into the main section without much difficulty, but then you've got the movie, the live-action bits of the show, and things like the Super Mario Adventures comic which messes up the Super Mario World story. There's so much room for confusion. Plus, people will probably not like the movie being held in the same esteem as the games; prejudice bites, but it's there nonetheless. - Walkazo 00:13, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

The movie is a "what-if" scenario to Earth, but we don't know if it's supposed to be the fictional Real World Earth of SMB or if it's the real earth. So, it doesn't fit into the central storyline at all and doesn't need to be mentioned. I think we need to keep in mind two things: (1) We are not here to make the plot make sense. If the release date/story context tells us that something takes place at one point in the timeline, we present it as such, even if it contradicts. Then, like any good Wiki, we point out the inconsistency, only offering a solution if it is blaringly obvious (we wouldn't say that Yoshi, Mario, and Luigi must have forgotten the events of SMW, we would instead say that, "Should the writer of Super Mario Adventures intended it to take place in the same timeline, Mario's fear of the Yoshi is incongruous: he had previously dealt with Yoshies in Super Mario World. It is possible that SMA was intended as an alternate take on the story of SMW, as the Mario-Kun manga adaption was.") If you want an example of what not to do, see Mario and Luigi's Parents (I take responsibility >.<) I'm not sure if you know this, but the live-action parts of the Super Show! occured prior to Mario and Luigi entering the Mushroom World. We would, in this case, note that Mario and Luigi were shown as babies to be inhabitents of the Mushroom World in YI, which was released after the television show. I hope this kind of makes sense: my idea is to mention the source, point out any inconsistencies to satisfy the frothing-at-the-mouth haters of alternate media (who, by the way, never seem to stay more than a month but long enough to screw up a proposal vote). But still, status in the biography section should never be considered giving a source "esteem". It meerly means a listing of all sources as they occur in relation to each other. Mario-Kun, the manga I mentioned above, could be mentioned in terms of rewrites, just as remakes are mentioned too. Stumpers! 01:54, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Um, where does (2) start? Anyway, I think the "Should the writer..." thing is a bit clunky and would take away from the article's aesthetics. Other arguments against merging the games and alternate media sources into one section include: the unworldy amount of rewrites this would necessitate and the complains/attempts to switch it back that would ensue, jumbled timelines, and general confusion. It's easier to just leave them seperate (like in the major articles), and deal with the little articles that mash them together instead. I've actually followed the development of the Mario and Luigi's Parents article for a while, and I think it's a good example of, not only confusing multi-media soups, but of clearly defining juxtaposing sources as well. For example, the Introduction discusses relatives introduced in various series, and lists those series right there, so the reader gets the whole story in nice, succinct paragraphs. The Appearances section's good too, since it describes what source provided what information; whereas History is ambiguous half the time, as are the sections about the individual parents. The speculation also detracts from the readability of History (which actually brings me back to my first point). - Walkazo 21:13, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Well, the argument here really isn't against history sections that mention both central and alternate canon sources, but it's against history sections that don't cite sources, which is already a bad thing according to MarioWiki policy. Stumpers! 02:11, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

I guess, seeing as how the parts of the M&L's Parents article that do cite sources are quite readable. But there's still the issue of wordy "this might have been intended on a reimagining of SMW as Mario did not seem to know Yoshi..." and the fact that speculation is as big a no-no as the absence of citations. At least packed away in their own little sections, we can sneak in the "reimaginings" without having all the "maybes" that makes us look unprofessional. - Walkazo 23:15, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

I still don't understand why we couldn't just make sections just like this (example is for Mario): Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Island DS, Partners in Time, Super Mario Bros. Super Show! live action (with note that the previous three titles taking place in the Mushroom World leaves a plothole: how did Mario get to Brooklyn and not remember the Mushroom Kingdom), Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. Super Show! animated (noting that Bowser was defeated at the end of SMB, the Super Show retconned that he maintained power even after Peach was rescued and note how the show ended before it could show Bowser's defeat, which was mentioned in Super Mario Bros. 2 that he had been out of power in the Mushroom Kingdom), Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan, Super Mario Bros. 2 USA, Super Mario Bros. 3, Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 (no plot-holes: the possibility of Bowser being locked into the Banishment Zone after Peach was rescued was not impossible: the game ends after she was rescued), Super Mario World game, Super Mario World TV show (occurs after SMW as known by Mama Luigi episode. Note that said episode was a retelling of SMW, but many things were changed, mention Luigi's story-telling tendencies from PM2, note that Yoshi character was not a baby in SMW), and so on and so on. Let's then not mention maybes at all, but just point out inconsistencies, even between games to one another. However, we should not mention inconsistencies between alternate media and games within the games sections, just within the alternate media sections. Sound good? Stumpers! 01:24, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

I guess that would work. But we should introduce this to the rest of the Wiki via Proposal before changing anything, as there's bound to be opposition and confusion amongst the other Users if we suddenly start adding the alternate media to the History sections. - Walkazo 22:39, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

I wonder how one would go about writing such a proposal? It would be very unfortunate to see a bunch of newcomers unaware that there is no official canon vote based on their personal ideas of canon and thus set the Wiki back a bit... our best bet may be to change MarioWiki:Canonicity to remove the fanon and replace it with the concepts we've been discussing first. There really is no argument here: fanon shouldn't be taken as canon, so this page should be pretty easy to alter, don't you think? Stumpers! 00:49, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Okay, I think I have a solution to this problem that will make everyone happy. We create a template that is hidden when the article is first accessed. This template will contain a section about one particular alternate canon source and then be placed in its appropriate place in the biography. If a reader wants to know about the alternate canon source's relation to the video games, he or she can click the expand button on the template and read it. Otherwise, it is easy to skip over. So, for example, if you look at the Mario article, the sections "Growing Up in Brooklyn" and "Super Mario Bros. Plumbing" would be placed in a template. Does that make sense? Stumpers! 11:42, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

I think I understand. So the headers would be something like Alternate Canon: Growing Up in Brooklyn, so people would know whether or not they'd want to read it? We'd still need the seperate Alternate Media section at the bottom for the purists who choose to pass on the templates. They shouldn't be able to complain because they can still avoid the imbedded AC sections (and all the wordy bits about how they fit in with the games); and obviously the people who want it all together will be happy. It'd be impractical to hide AM sections in small articles like M&L's Parents, so I think stating where each bit of information comes from should be good enough for organization (as I've said before, it works for the M&LP sections that already do that); with the templates on the big articles only. And, once we change the Canonicity policy, we can make the proposal give people the choise between the hidden templates and the out-in-the-open AC sections. Either way we get complete History sections, imput from other users, and no one can say we "sprung" this new policy on them. - Walkazo 21:33, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Excellent! I'm going to try to nail down a few specifics and then present the idea to the admins and sysops on the forum, and then if they like it we can bring it to the proposals page. Sound good? Stumpers! 01:12, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Yep. But if it's not too much to ask, can I have a preview of the template before the proposal goes out? Seeing as how involved I've been with this whole shebang... - Walkazo 01:38, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

First I'm gonna need to find someone who actually knows how to make that kind of template, but of course you can see it. Stumpers! 02:00, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Okay, thanks! - Walkazo 16:14, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Okay, I have to figure this out. Stumpers, you're saying that the Super Mario Bros. Super Show is about stuff that Mario did after Super Mario Bros. 1 and 2 but before three? I didn't used to think so, but I guess maybe that's true. But I think the reason people don't consider it canon is that it wasn't published by Nintendo. All Mario games were published, if not developed, by Nintendo. Or am I wrong, and the show is published by Nintendo? If it is, then it should probably be considered canon. I thought it would work to just say that the canonicity of the show is unknown. CrystalYoshi 15:14, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

Actually, we HOPEFULLY have a solution for all of this... (you may have heard that the sysops are trying to figure this out) so we'll show you it soon. I can't say that you'll like it, but it may just be enough to please everyone. The Super Show cartoon segments do fit in between the events of Super Mario Bros. 1 and Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan ver.), although one must admit: the Super Show! never explicitly had an intro where Mario left Bowser's Castle in world 8, transformed into his cartoon appearance, and then continued his adventures, and the last episode of the show did not show him transforming back into 8-bit and continuing on the Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan) adventure. What I want everyone to take away from this is that NONE of the video games do this to relate to one another, either. Take Paper Mario: no explanation is given for why the Mushroom World is suddenly paper and Mario isn't making exclamations anymore as he did in Super Mario 64 (he was truly a silent protagonist in the first PM - he got voice samples in the second game). Now, look at the two biggest complaints against the Super Show: that it has a different art style and Mario isn't a silent protagonist. What I'm asking for is that we judge the canonicity of the cartoon shows by the same rules we judge the video games. I don't think that's too much to ask for, but others will tell you different because of the whole publisher issue. They make the mistake of assuming that Nintendo, a video game company, would have put aside what it did best to oversee and release a television show just to assure that the show would be canon. Not so. For example, SSB Melee and Brawl were created by two different development teams because the Melee development team was making another video game. It's the same logic: it would be illogical for Nintendo to put aside what they were doing when they could hire out a new team to both produced and release the Super Show. Nintendo of America was right in there: giving the rights to Mario away and making sure that DiC didn't mess up their character's image. I don't think we should be judging the Super Show because Nintendo made the smart decision and hired a bunch of seasoned and experienced cartoonists and people who had experience in the television industry while NoA was busy releasing Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA). Stumpers! 20:12, 6 September 2008 (EDT)

Sports, Party and other spin-off: canon?

Sorry for my English, I'm Italian. Really the Mario Sports, Mario Parties and other spin-off (such Game & Watch Gallery) are canon? These games are incongruous with Platform (and RPGs); for example the existence of both Baby Mario and Mario in same time period or the design of Mushroom Kingdoom (and character attitude) in the Mario Strikers. - Feffe

All games are canon; though many feel they are not all created equally, what stays and what goes isn't up to us to decide. Besides, even the central titles create inconsistancies amongst themselves. The best we can do is point out the problems, and steer our readers through the murky bits the best we can. - Walkazo 22:35, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Proposal: Enforce the Canon to Higher Standards

I read through articles like Daisy's and Baby Mario's, and most of the character's history has to do with spinoffs like the sports games or Party series, usually by order of release. I think this has to go, really, and that we should determine which games count in the storyline and which don't (like, say, have the main storyline be the most pertinent to the article, with noteworthy extraneous appearances on the side). Maybe separate them into levels on canonicity?

Well, the high canon would be, unanimously, the Mario platforming and RPG games. They are the true core of the series. They should be the games pertinent to the storyline and thus are integral to the Mario universe.

I think the middle canon would be the solo character games, like Luigi's Mansion, and spinoff franchises like Donkey Kong and Wario games. They're still important to the series, but tend to not interact with the main series or branch off into their own. Of course, sometimes there are subtle references or times when they connect, but as a whole, they're far away enough from Mario to hold their own. They themselves can fall into their own levels of canon, but as far as Mario is concerned, they fall just below his main games.

Low canon, then, would be the games with individual storylines applied to them, but rarely having an influence on other games. The best examples would be Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix or the Mario Party games, which are largely licensed off to Hudson Soft. They often have a story included, but they don't really affect other games or they create inconsistencies that you rarely find in the other levels of canon. They can still potentially count, but are seldom mentioned.

Then there's non-canon. Several people have differing views on what's non-canon, and I personally think this can be tied in with the low canon material as they are mostly self-contained. Two types of games belong here. All the Mario games with no storyline whatsoever go to this group (like Mario Kart and the sports titles). Also, all the licensed stuff that Nintendo's trying to forget (like edutainment games and Hotel Mario) are a given. Nintendo was marketing Luigi's Mansion as Luigi's first solo adventure when Mario's Missing preceeded it, but that is because Nintendo of Japan never authorized it and LM is a first-party title (in fact, the licensed edutainment games and Hotel Mario I believe were licensed only through Nintendo of America, not the Japanese branch, so saying these games are part of the series is like telling Zelda fans they should count the CD-i trilogy). These games can be fun, but if they've got no story or they're not fully approved creations, then they don't truly continue Mario's adventures.

This just leaves alternate canon, which I think we've got down. This is alternate universe Mario - and not just one alternate universe, but many. They're basically Mario taken through to other media with the writers taking some liberties since he's a fictional character. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show, The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3, and Super Mario World cartoons are all connected with each other, but they don't tie into, say, the Super Mario Bros. Movie. They are self-contained or one-shot, based on the games sometimes but not in the same continuity. I think one exception to this is the Super Smash Bros. games. They are not supposed to be the original characters, but rather copies of them, so it can be considered an alternate universe.

Oh yes, and the canon wouldn't be complete without miscellaneous bits of information in the series that gets skewed (or censored) over the translation process. Like, say, Vivian and Birdo's gender, or King K. Rool's "brothers" (as mentioned by Super Smash Bros. Brawl). Since the Japanese made most of the Mario games, whatever the original version of those games said goes (hence, Vivian and Birdo are male since that's what the creators wanted). On the other hand, since King K. Rool is a creation of Rare (as licensed by Nintendo properly), their original say is the correct intention, so the rumored "brothers" (whether it's a mistranslation or a direct word-for-word of the Japanese version) are really disguises.

Then there's Cranky Kong, a Rare character. Early on, Rare wanted to make him Donkey Kong's grandfather, but then they tried to retcon that in Donkey Kong 64 by saying he's his father. Whatever the case, he's the original Donkey Kong, and the current Donkey Kong is either Junior grown up or Junior's son. Nintendo of Japan is choosing to go with Cranky being DK's grandfather and having him carry his namesake over to his grandson shortly after Donkey Kong '94. So, we can take this one of two ways... What the creators wanted, or what the copyright holders (ie. Nintendo of Japan) are saying. Personally, I'd go with the former, but it's too inconsistent and Rare has tried both approaches to Cranky's character.

Let's see, other things this can fall under... How about Star Hill and Shooting Star Summit, or the Chancellor and the Minister of Mushroom Castle? Between Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario, the Japanese names of this place and character is the same (Falling Star Hill and the Minister), so they are the same even though the localized name is different. Or what about Yo'ster Isle in Super Mario RPG? It's a bit confusing, but the Yoshi's Island of Super Mario World and Yo'ster Isle are the same, as they were called Yo'ster Island in the Japanese version. So Yo'ster Isle is not their summer home (as fans have been calling it). Despite this, there was a game called Yoshi's Island. Or the Star Road. The star transporters in the Japanese version of Super Mario World had no name, so it's not affiliated with the Star Road of Super Mario RPG. Then there's Kameks/Magikoopas and Kamek the Magikoopa, or minor name changes in general (Big Boo to Atomic Boo, after Atomic Teresa). I'm not saying that we call them by their Japanese names (although that would be the most accurate), but rather we note it down somewhere on their information and use the originally intended information whenever an inconsistency comes up between languages. We'll just have to grab whatever comes up, because there is a lack of interested translators outside of The Mushroom Kingdom website.

I think that covers my proposal. Of course, feel free to ignore me. Mario does have a very loose definition of canon to begin with, but to see so much applied to the character-specific pages here, I think we need to change things at least a little bit. LinkTheLefty 15:36, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

How ironic. Us sysops recently discussed wiping out this page.

And beside, what's with the Hotel Mario/Education Title hate anyway? As much as these game sucks, the developers had to get permission from Nintendo to use the Mario License, they're as official as any other games.

But, first and foremost, what's the point of doing that anyway. There's no official rules for what is "Canon" or not, and there's no point in saying X NEVER HAPPED!!!!!!!! when we're still going to document it anyway. Currently, this page could be renamed "Son Of Suns doesn't like X so it doesn't exist". --Blitzwing 16:10, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

Where do you discuss those things? In the forum? Not fair to those sysops who aren't in the forum. (like me) - Cobold (talk · contribs) 16:21, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

How is it unfair? We have a sysops board so we can have a more fluid discussion and not clog up the wiki with out banter. You have the option of being part of that. Take it or leave it. -- Chris 17:11, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

I agree and don't agree with this. I agree that Donkey Kong and Wario series have little to do with the Mario universe. However, this doesn't count for Luigi's Mansion, Super Princess Peach, and the Yoshi series. They are quite clearly set in the Mario universe. (E. Gadd reappeared in general Mario games later on; Baby Mario has many appearances in the Yoshi games).

Also, whereever there have been name changes or controversities (e.g. Birdo's gender), we shouldn't decide to go for one version but state that both exist and where they come from.

I would agree on merging the Minister and the Chancellor because it's definitely the same person. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 16:18, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

All you have to do is register and ask Steve for a shinee rank. What's so hard in that?

btw i still think this is useless bull,

--Blitzwing 17:04, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

The levels of canonicity in particular. As Stumpers said a few sections back, this should just be merged with (or rather, replaced by) MarioWiki:Chronology - it already deals with (all) games vs. alternate media; and that's all that's really needed, isn't it? - Walkazo 20:03, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

Uh...Hi there! I'm a new user as of today and not only did I take this opportunity to say hello to all you people, but also to write something new here! (Seriously, it's been nearly two years since the last post!) Anyway, just like Walkazo, I consider all games canon and the TV series (like Stumpers). In fact, I consider ANYTHING canon... Except for a few things, namely Super Mario Bros. the movie, it probably is canon, but let's just say the Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Princess Daisy, Yoshi and other characters alternate versions of the actual ones, and the Koopalings' birth order from The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 and Captain N and the New Super Mario World........I think the order of the Mario, Paper Mario, Super Mario Land, Mario Party, Wario, etc... as shown in the Super Mario Kun mangas publication order to be the actual order for the games, except for Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story... Also, about Yoshi's age, Hip(Lemmy) and Hop(Iggy) are both six in the cartoons, and they go to princess Peach's kindergarten class in A Little Learning where, among others, Yoshi is, so he would be six, therefore he was born in 1985, assuming A Little Learning takes place in 1991. What does anyone think? BTW, I forgot my user ID, so do I need it to do some certain changes around the wiki? - B.T)B.T. 11:48, 7 July 2010 (EDT)

The cartoons have a separate canon.

At the moment, the wiki acts like everything is canon, while at the same time acknowledging that the cartoons don't really exist in the same continuity as the main series. This is causing big issues with a number of pages on the wiki, such as the Mushroom World page, which, if it applied only to the games, would refer simply to the world where the eight kingdoms of Super Mario Bros. 3 are found. In the games, Mushroom World is, as far as I'm aware, never used to refer to the entire world, instead the words "Mario's world" or even "earth" are often used. However, the idea that the Mushroom World is a separate universe that Mario is visiting bleeds over onto other pages and affects the main canon. Numerous pages are affected by this.

This also applies to naming conventions. Names like "Cheatsy Koopa" are used in the main headings of pages, despite never ever being used in any of the video games to refer to Larry. Bowser is referred to as King Bowser Koopa in his infobox as if this is his official full name, despite the fact that he is only ever known as Bowser in the games.

Worst of all, the Super Mario cartoons and comics are placed in articles with HIGHER prominence than spin-off games. This leads to the situation where on the Yoshi page, you have to read through the Super Mario World cartoon section before you even find information about YOSHI'S ISLAND, his title series. This in particular is just crazy. Cartoons and comics should be dealt with ONLY at the bottom of the articles, and their information should not be treated as if it belongs in the same canon as everything else. It's fully accepted that these series are not in the same continuity (such as it is) as the main games, there are numerous inconsistencies and impossibilities, not least Mario and Luigi's Brooklyn accents (yes, the series is full of inconsistencies, I know, but they don't regularly outright contradict each other).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against this information not being covered, but I'd argue that as it is western-produced media that is not freely viewable for anyone anymore, not mentioned anywhere in official media, as far as I'm aware have NEVER been shown in Japan, the home of Mario, and had no actual involvement from Mario's creators, that these (and the movie) should be treated with a "lesser" canon than any officially released game. This would also apply to Japanese manga and cartoons, also.

I know the Mario series has a very loose canon, but it is not without rules entirely, there IS a continuity of sorts, and a number of things are pretty much set in stone, such as Mario's voice, his origins (he was seemingly born and also lives in the Mushroom Kingdom), character names and so on. Right now these are all being affected by information holdovers from western-produced cartoons produced 25 years ago that have zero impact on the series, and I personally think this is quite quite silly.

Final disclaimer, I grew up on the cartoons and genuinely love them still, so don't take this as an attack against them! Fizzle (talk) 13:02, 18 January 2014 (EST)

Sections are in chronological order based on release date, not on importance, and the spin-off media have had impacts on the series as a whole (not to mention the fandom): to use an example once use against me, Bowser's crush on Peach originated in an anime and then appeared in a western comic - years before the games ran with the idea. The wiki makes no judgment calls about the relevancy different types of media because that's subjective and speculative: things contradict, yes, and we document that, but it's not our place to come out and say which one is the "right" story. We started moving away from our fanon-ridden attempts to link everything into a coherent timeline in 2008, and we further revised that to not treat alternate media as second-class sources a couple months later in 2009. Obviously most people are going to look at the conflicting stories and decide that the video games are the version they're going to prescribe to, maybe even taking a step further and cherry-picking which games they care for, but that's their choice to make for their own personal headcanons. It is not our right to choose for them by selecting which sources the wiki as a whole should value more or less: that's skewing the information. Our job is to report the official facts, warts and all, and that's what we've been doing pretty well for years. Using everything we have at our disposal is a much more solid foundation for our articles than dismissing one thing or another and then having to go and defend those choices. The canon debate is a slippery slope, and the smartest thing for the wiki to do is keep its hands clean and not open that kettle of worms back up again; chronology debates on the pages lead to nothing but headaches. - Walkazo 14:37, 18 January 2014 (EST)

Oh, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that the continuity arguments are pointless and not at all helpful, at least when discussing games that are not clear sequels (such as the Mario & Luigi games, which each make reference to the previous adventure but don't go much beyond that). And I can sort of see what you mean about the slippery slope in that respect, but I don't think having a two tier canon (ie: Nintendo published games and then everything else) really would detrimentally affect the wiki. As for Bowser's crush, I think, technically, this was hinted at simply by his constant kidnapping of her, I'm not sure the idea that this was mentioned in a manga before it appeared in a game really means they have a real impact on the series. Even with that said, just to use an example from the wiki I spend most my time at, the Zelda mangas have had Link turning into a wolf before it happened in Twilight Princess, for instance, and other things that seem to have possibly influenced the series, but we treat them with a lesser importance. It's not an entirely fair example as the Zelda series does actually have a timeline, but I kind of see the idea of a timeline as a separate issue from canonicity. As previously mentioned, claiming that Bowser's full name is King Bowser Koopa is not exactly true; this applies ONLY to the cartoons. Acting like it applies to everything else seems foolish. This also applies to the existence of a "real world" separate from the "Mushroom World".

The timeline stuff is indeed pointless and I am happy the wiki has moved away from this, but I kind of think a happy medium can be struck somewhere. A lot of these things are being claimed as fact despite having no place in the modern Mario canon, and often being outright contradictory.

I misread the fact that they were discussed by order of date rather than by type of media, at least to an extent. I'm still not sure they should end up getting second billing in articles, even knowing that. The Yoshi article is one that particularly bugs me. I mean, it was Super Mario World 2, after all. But anyway, I see the reasoning, I just think it is negatively affecting the wiki and something should be done. There has to be a happy place between too many rules and no rules whatsoever, there's inconsistencies all over the shop.

Also, I have noticed that the live action Lou Albano segments and the Mario movie are ALREADY dismissed from most article pages. So I think there's some double standards going on here. If the cartoons are canon, so are they, surely? What's the difference? Surely the slippery slope goes both ways, no? Fizzle (talk) 21:27, 18 January 2014 (EST)

re "and a number of things are pretty much set in stone, such as Mario's voice, his origins (he was seemingly born and also lives in the Mushroom Kingdom"

A guy on TMK posted a scan of a Japanese guidebook published in 1994, which states that Donkey Kang happens in New Yark (and according to said guy, also says it's mario's birthplace, though I may be misremembering things). So yeah, the real word/Brooklyn stuff isn't (probably) entirely an invention of the western licensed material.

"Also, I have noticed that the live action Lou Albano segments and the Mario movie are ALREADY dismissed from most article pages. So I think there's some double standards going on here. If the cartoons are canon, so are they, surely? What's the difference? Surely the slippery slope goes both ways, no?"

It's a strech to assume that's a conscious omission. From what I've seen, most of the LA skits pages were created later than the equivalent animated shorts. Editors interest and all that. --Glowsquid (talk) 21:44, 18 January 2014 (EST)

Koopalings, kids of Bowser or not?

One source (SMB3, and all lore after it) claims they are his children.

One small interview with Miyamoto (who wants Mario to have as little story as possible http://www.wired.com/2009/06/super-mario-galaxy-2/) says they aren't Bowser's children.

Which is canon? We'd assume the more recent one is canon, but is recentness really what makes something more canon over something else? This article even says "However, this does not mean any source of information is more canonical than the other."
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Editorguy117 (talk).

As I already told you on Talk:Koopalings, both stories are canon, and articles about the Koopalings should include both stories in introductions and any discussions of familial ties (although current stories do tend to take precedence as with names). Information pertaining to older games (History sections, game pages, etc.) should portray them as Bowser's offspring, while info about newer games should use the newer story. In cases where their relatedness doesn't matter, users should strive to write neutrally rather than shoehorning in one story or the other, as that will likely lead to edit wars. - Walkazo 17:03, 24 March 2016 (EDT)

The Koopalings are not Bowser's children, they're just his minions. From what i've heard Bowser Jr. is Bowser's only child. Fawful's Minion (talk)

That's the modern story: originally, they were depicted as his children. The conflicting stories are discussed at length on a few pages, but Koopalings#Family_relationship has the most info. - Walkazo 17:22, 24 March 2016 (EDT)

Beta elements

This page still mentions beta elements, can an admin change it to pre-release and unused content please? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 17:33, 11 December 2018 (EST)

"Canon" is a frequently misused term

I've been meaning to bring this up for a while now. Despite what many people online think, "canon" refers not to whether something is valid to any perceived continuity. Rather, it is simply a set of guidelines. All other definitions are religion-based. As such, Mario does, in fact, have a canon, and has gone through a few, the most currently enduring being New Super Mario Bros. Wii's depiction of the setting. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:33, October 19, 2022 (EDT)

For series which show obvious continuity between the games (such as Luigi's Mansion and Mario & Luigi), I do agree, but I still think it's best to play it safe for series which don't show any continuity between the games as it can be speculation. Also, what exactly do you mean about New Super Mario Bros. Wii? Nightwicked Bowser 21:00, October 19, 2022 (EDT)

Your own dictionary link gives " a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works" as a possible meaning for the word, which is very much in line with how it's used in the context of this page and whenever the topic of "canon" is brought up when discussing fictional franchises. --Glowsquid (talk) 21:04, October 19, 2022 (EDT)

That's more akin to a series than a continuity yay/nay, though (eg the "Disney Animated Canon," the items of which obviously tend to have nothing to do with each other setting-wise). So, for instance, the "main" games in the Super Mario (series) article are referring to the official "canon" to the series. Again, having nothing to do with what people have long drawn-out debates online about (looking at you, Star Wars). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:23, October 19, 2022 (EDT)

I know words are misused a lot but I'm not seeing how this usage of "canon" muddies definition and clarity in writing the same way the misuse of "disinterest", "remix", "remaster/remake" and "beta release" do. I think you're greatly overthinking this. First, the dictionary isn't even an authoritative guide for the meaning of words. It can help people get an idea of how to use the word, with semicolons usually helping narrow down; it can even show the misused version words as with "disinterest". It's not a legal document though, and the definition explaining "sanctioned work" is a good example and can cover comfortably the multiple contexts "canon" is used in. However if you look at the general picture, the narrower "fandom" use of canon that is "series of accepted works for a narrative" seems to be an acceptable use of the term "canon", as it's still referring to "accepted series of works" that is the general idea of that word. Sure, there's religious contexts but there are other words like "fan" itself being probably derived from "fanatic" that shed the religious aspect; it still provides relevant etymological background. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 11:07, October 20, 2022 (EDT)

Even using Star Wars as an example since you brought it up, Lucasfilm has explicitly used the term canon over the years to refer to exactly what is described here. Same thing with Star Trek. It's definitely come to be pretty much synonymous with continuity (even if not the original intention, language evolves), and like LGM said I don't see how the use of the term is confusing or even incorrect, really. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:06, October 20, 2022 (EDT)

There IS a canon!

Whoever said the Super Mario Series doesn't have an official canon got it all wrong! There IS absolutely a canon as evidenced by the fact that Yoshi mentions his and Mario's last adventure from Super Mario World in Super Mario 64, and the fact that Mario and the cast meet their infant selves in Yoshi's Island DS. This article needs to be fixed. Jackjolt1 (talk) 13:48, January 14, 2024 (EST)

There are times when certain games do have continuity, but the point is most of the time games don't have that. That's why the wiki operates as if there isn't a canon and I don't think anything needs to be fixed regarding that. Nightwicked Bowser 14:01, January 14, 2024 (EST)

There are indeed past references to games (the example being provided is not even the best one, it's not a direct referral from Super Mario World), but Nintendo tends to not make much extensive comment about continuity. Bringing up an example of a continuity to support a canon is like chopping a head off a Tryclyde: for every semblance of a continuity, there's 5 more examples that contradict it, as well as Nintendo's own statement on the concept. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 14:18, January 14, 2024 (EST)

Yes it is, Super Mario World was the latest platformer game involving Yoshi chronologically before Super Mario 64, and Nintendo didn't directly state it, only the maker of this article. The games and spinoffs are canon, the cartoons and movie are not, and the remakes are retellings of the original games. So I can confirm that there's indeed a canon. The Yoshi's Island series is further proof of this. Jackjolt1 (talk) 10:17, January 15, 2024 (EST)

If only I could wipe out my 2008 eyesore. To be fair, I'm not sure if "Mario has no canon" is correct so much as "Mario has no canon policy" (maybe rephrasing it as such would make things clearer?). If Nintendo ever formally declares a committed policy for such a long-running franchise, that would be a different story, but until then, this is fan-fluff whose discourse has no business being dictated by an encyclopedia source. All something as loose as this does is open the door to silly editing arguments that make wiki maintenance harder. It's not unlike the TFWiki approach. Does that make sense? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:30, January 25, 2024 (EST)

There is no official Nintendo policy regarding Mario canon. You would have to rely on your own headcanon and there's nothing wrong with that

Continuity poses a perennial challenge for writers, demanding coherence and narrative logic while potentially constraining future developments. It can be a source of headaches, requiring meticulous attention to detail and inducing plothole-induced despair. Yet, some series prioritize consistency, adhering closely to their Universe Bible where every detail must align with existing history. In contrast, others are more forgiving, occasionally overlooking continuity errors in favor of advancing the current episode's plot. Then there is Negative Continuity, with no established continuity, the show enjoys the liberty to completely disregard it, confident in a full reboot by the next episode. Did you burn a hole in your favorite outfit? Fear not, it'll be pristine in the next episode. Burned down your house? No sweat, it'll be standing tall again next time. Turned into a frog, perished, or obliterated the universe? No problem! If an episode ever continues from the last, it's likely part of a longer storyline. One significant advantage of this concept is its facilitation of syndication out of sequence. The absence of continuity ensures that even unfamiliar viewers can enjoy each episode without feeling lost or disconnected. Consequently, continuity-heavy shows, regardless of their popularity, typically receive limited airtime outside of episode premieres. However, not everything is always reset. The events that establish the premise of the work typically remain unchanged. Additionally, aspects such as proper introductions for new characters or the permanence of character deaths may occasionally be respected. In some cases, a Clip Show Episode may diverge from this trend by featuring scenes from multiple past episodes as remembered events by the characters, though this continuity may only apply to that specific episode.

This is the case with the Super Mario franchise in general; Miyamoto said that there wasn't a continuity simply because it'd limit the development of future Mario games. Peach's Castle maintains a consistent appearance across various appearances, but its surrounding area and interior often undergo changes, as does the layout of the kingdom nearby. Conversely, Bowser's Castle lacks consistency in design, although games like the Mario & Luigi series and New Super Mario Bros. establish standardized exteriors for it. The latter inconsistency may be attributed to Bowser's Castle frequently being depicted as destroyed in almost every game it features in. There are instances where the Mario games exhibit continuity. The game manual for Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins states that the game takes place after the events of Super Mario Land with Wario taking over Mario Land while Mario was in Sarasaland, and Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 takes place after that game, with Wario deciding to go on an adventure to get money to buy a castle of his own after Mario took his castle back from him, and Wario Land II seems to take place after that, the game starts inside what seems to be the same castle Wario earned in the ending of the previous game. It's important to note that these Mario Land & Wario games were developed by Nintendo Research & Development 1, which was managed by Gunpei Yokoi for most of it's existence, not Miyamoto. Interestingly Yokoi is also well-known for being a mentor to Miyamoto. Additionally Wario was created by R&D1 out of the disdain they felt towards having to work on a game starring a character that they didn't create i.e. Mario.

The game manual for Super Mario World states that the game takes place after the events of Super Mario Bros. 3. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island tells the story about the birth of Mario and Luigi and stays as the series origin. Yoshi's New Island, starts right where that game ended, ignoring the events of Yoshi's Island DS, revealing that the stork delivered Mario and Luigi to the wrong house, and the game ends with them getting delivered to the right house this time. In the post-credit scene for Yoshi's Island DS, six of the star children are revealed to be Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Peach, Baby Donkey Kong, Baby Wario, and Baby Bowser. Immediately thereafter, the seventh and final star child is revealed to be a newly-hatched Baby Yoshi, who is also strongly implied to be the very same Yoshi that the grown up Mario Bros. would go on to rescue and ally with in Super Mario World and subsequent Mario games. However, unlike Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, which was developed by Nintendo Entertainment Analysis and Development. Yoshi's Island DS was developed by Artoon and Yoshi's New Island was developed by Arzest. Consequently, these games did not have Miyamoto's direct input. Super Mario Sunshine is the introduction of Bowser Jr., since Peach doesn't recognize him. The game's prologue also has an easy-to-miss detail during F.L.U.D.D.'s analysis on Mario showing his previous fights against Bowser, confirming that the game takes place after those fights' associated games.

The Mario RPGs exhibit more continuity, often referencing events from past games. These RPGs typically do not have significant input from Miyamoto and are developed by teams such as Square, Intelligent Systems, and AlphaDream. In the Mario & Luigi series for example, Fawful is a minion in the first game, a miserable beggar hiding beneath Peach's castle in the second, and a newly-reformed main antagonist in the third. Paper Mario itself has Luigi's Diary make specific mention to the Mario Party, Mario Tennis, and Mario Golf games. Additionally, the diary provides background setup for Luigi's Mansion and contributes to Luigi's future characterization as being cowardly and afraid of ghosts in later games. Lady Bow, one of Mario's partners in Paper Mario and her butler Bootler reappear in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. Most of the inconsistencies are between the various sub-series (Mario shrinks when hit in the 2D platformers but loses health normally in the 3D ones and the RPGs), but often the subseries aren't even consistent with themselves: The area surrounding Peach's Castle in Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story looks almost nothing like it does in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time. Kylie Koopa from the latter game is a denizen of the past but appears in the present in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team and doesn't appear to have aged a day. Mario in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door and Super Mario Galaxy could breathe in outer space and move in 3D normally, but in Super Paper Mario he needs a space helmet and a special ability, respectively.

The Donkey Kong series shares a universe with the Mario series, and has elements of negative continuity, like the island where the Kong family lives changing its design across the games. However, the games have elements of continuity, like the SNES trilogy games sharing references, especially in the GBA remakes where more plot is featured in the main game. Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze features many continuity nods to Donkey Kong Country Returns and some to the SNES Trilogy. Furthermore, Wrinkly Kong dies beteen the events of Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! and Donkey Kong 64 staying dead never being resurrected. There's even confusion regarding Cranky Kong's identity, on whether he's even Donkey Kong's grandfather or father. Matthew Fogel, the writer of the The Super Mario Bros. Movie went with the father. Of course these games were developed by Rare and Retro Studios, and they lack Miyamoto's input.

In Sonic's case, there is a clear defined continuity because there is an official Sonic canon. Ian Flynn has used his podcast, the Bumblekast, to answer fan questions about anything, including questions regarding canon. Flynn, who has contributed to various Sonic media including comics, TV, and video games, has indeed acknowledged the existence of a canon for the Sonic series. Additionally, Sonic community manager, Katie Chrzanowski, put out a statement on Twitter saying: "In the past few years, we've been looking at the entire universe of Sonic and how things tie together canonically for the future." "Sega put together a small team of us internally... we're working on making the universe and stories more meaningfully connected." You can read her full statement here. No spokesperson for Nintendo has ever made a statement like that.

When discussing the continuity of the Mario series, Miyamoto himself has offered an interesting perspective. He likened the Mario cast to a troupe of actors playing various roles in different games. This view explains why, for instance, Mario can be portrayed as a medical doctor and Peach as a nurse in certain games. However, it's important to note that Miyamoto's perspective might not necessarily reflect the views of all developers involved in the Mario series. Depending on whom you ask, developers from different studios like AlphaDream, Artoon, Intelligent Systems, Rare, etc. might have varying opinions on the matter. Therefore, it's essential to recognize that while Miyamoto's explanation provides insight into the flexible nature of Mario's universe, it doesn't necessarily represent an official stance that every developer would agree upon. The interpretation of continuity in the Mario series can vary depending on individual perspectives and creative decisions within the development teams. Miyamoto doesn't acknowledge a canon for Mario or any other Nintendo developer, for that matter, and Nintendo hasn't forged a team of lore masters to keep track of Mario's continuity. So, is there a Mario canon? Nintendo has yet to issue any official statement regarding the existence of a Mario canon, and MarioWiki's policy remains unchanged due to the limited information available on the subject—specifically, the absence of an official statement from Nintendo. Given these circumstances, it is unlikely that either Nintendo or MarioWiki will modify their stance on canon in the foreseeable future. As a result, individuals interested in discussing a Mario canon with their family and friends may need to rely on their own interpretations or headcanon. Take a moment to envision yourself transported back to your childhood days. It's likely that at some point, you engaged in imaginative play with your friends and family members, whether on the playground, at school, or in the comfort of your home. Perhaps you assumed the roles of beloved Mario characters, embarking on fantastical adventures and made wholesome memories. Now, ask yourself this simple question, what is preventing you from reliving those moments as an adult? Embrace your imagination once more, Using your own headcanon to make sense of the Mario universe. -- KevinM (talk/contribs) 13:22, February 16, 2024 (EST)

It's quite an interesting read but please, break up your paragraphs. This was so hard to get through.— Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 16:04, February 16, 2024 (EST)

Thank you for your input. I hope it looks better for you :) -- KevinM (talk/contribs) 16:14, February 16, 2024 (EST)

No offense but I'm struggling identifying an underlying point to made from all this text. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 16:17, February 16, 2024 (EST)

No offense taken. -- KevinM (talk/contribs) 16:27, February 16, 2024 (EST)

"In Sonic's case, there is a clear defined continuity because there is an official Sonic canon." Uhhhh, that's a bad example. [1] is why. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 17:24, February 20, 2024 (CST)

Yes, in 2021, Sonic Team did make a statement on Twitter saying "Everything is canon". They did not elaborate on what this exactly meant, but the Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia goes on to reiterate what it meant. It apparently means that something that's already canon can have a different meaning, or can further explain the canonicity of another canonical product. -- KevinM (talk/contribs) 01:51, February 22, 2024 (EST)

Yes, but that still doesn't clarify what "EVERYTHING" meant. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 09:45, February 24, 2024 (CST)

Here's a breakdown of the statement: "Something that's already canon can have a different meaning, or can further explain the canonicity of another canonical product."

Canonical Product: This refers to any officially recognized work within the fictional universe, such as novels, films, TV episodes, comics, or other media. Each of these products contributes to the overarching canon and helps shape the audience's understanding of the story and its characters.

P.S. I've provided an answer concerning that tweet from an official source, i.e., Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia and gave my interpretation. However, please note that this is the Super Mario Wiki, not the Super Sonic Wiki. For inquiries related to Sonic, I suggest visiting the Sonic Wiki Zone. They have a dedicated talk page for the Sonic Canon article where you can ask your question regarding that tweet. Additionally, you may consider reaching out to Ian Flynn, Evan Stanley, Katie Chrzanowski, and Tyson Hesse on Twitter, as they work for Sega and might have the answers you seek. Kind regards. -- KevinM (talk/contribs) 14:55, February 24, 2024 (EST)

"Here's a breakdown of the statement: "Something that's already canon can have a different meaning, or can further explain the canonicity of another canonical product.""... No comment. "Canonical Product: This refers to any officially recognized work within the fictional universe, such as novels, films, TV episodes, comics, or other media. Each of these products contributes to the overarching canon and helps shape the audience's understanding of the story and its characters." True, but then what about contradictions within the canon? "P.S. I've provided an answer concerning that tweet from an official source, i.e., Sonic the Hedgehog Encyclo-speed-ia and gave my interpretation." So there could be alternate interpretations of both that source and the tweet itself? That kinda muddles your argument. "However, please note that this is the Super Mario Wiki, not the Super Sonic Wiki. For inquiries related to Sonic, I suggest visiting the Sonic Wiki Zone. They have a dedicated talk page for the Sonic Canon article where you can ask your question regarding that tweet." One, fandom's blocked. Two, technically YOU brought up Sonic canon when talking about MARIO canon, I just did a reply, which started this whole thing. "Additionally, you may consider reaching out to Ian Flynn, Evan Stanley, Katie Chrzanowski, and Tyson Hesse on Twitter, as they work for Sega and might have the answers you seek." Yeah, that website is blocked, do they have an email? I could send one via Gmail. That would, personally, be easier. "Kind regards." Kind regards back to you. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 07:43, February 26, 2024 (CST)

Sorry to hear that both Fandom & Twitter blocked you. Ian Flynn has a podcast called Bumblekast you can probably reach him through the gmail he has set up for his podcast show. Just click on the list of links on YouTube, scroll down to additional channel details, and its there. BTW, as I said above, individuals interested in discussing a Mario canon, or any canon for that matter, with their family and friends may need to rely on their own interpretations or headcanon. Now, this is for everyone reading this, as stated above, take a moment to envision yourself transported back to your childhood days. It's likely that at some point, you engaged in imaginative play with your friends and family members, whether on the playground, at school, or in the comfort of your home. Perhaps you assumed the roles of beloved Mario characters, embarking on fantastical adventures and made wholesome memories. Now, ask yourself this simple question, what is preventing you from reliving those moments as an adult? Embrace your imagination once more, Using your own headcanon to make sense of the Mario universe. I do not plan to discuss this any further. Good luck. I wish you all the Best! -- KevinM (talk/contribs) 15:47, February 26, 2024 (EST)

the Mario universe does have a canon, infact there is even a Mario multiverse!

Note before opening: This was a very long - and controversial - debate that stemmed from a proposal to merge remakes to the main game list. I was a part of this topic, and some things here I regret, so if you don't want to look, you don't have to, but if you do I won't stop you. Anything dumb I said here that you see I apologize in advance. --SONIC123CDMANIA 12:03, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

Closed discussion

I'll explain. There are at least 8 different Mario universes in the Mario multiverse. 1. The Main Mario universe consists of at least the following games: ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. 2 ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. 3 ▪︎ Super Mario Land ▪︎ Super Mario World ▪︎ Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins ▪︎ Super Mario 64 (DS Remake) ▪︎ Luigi's Mansion (Remake) ▪︎ Super Mario Sunshine ▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (+ Bowser's Minions) ▪︎ Mario Kart DS ▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time ▪︎ Super Princess Peach ▪︎ New Super Mario Bros. ▪︎ Super Mario Galaxy ▪︎ Mario Party DS ▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story (+ Bowser Jr.'s Journey) ▪︎ New Super Mario Bros. Wii ▪︎ Super Mario Galaxy 2 ▪︎ Super Mario 3D Land ▪︎ Mario Party 9 ▪︎ New Super Mario Bros. 2 ▪︎ Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (DLC) ▪︎ New Super Mario Bros. U (Deluxe) ▪︎ New Super Luigi U ▪︎ Luigi's Mansion 2 (HD) ▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Dream Team ▪︎ Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Wii U) ▪︎ Super Mario 3D World ▪︎ Mario Party: Island Tour ▪︎ Mario Party 10 ▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam Bros. ▪︎ Super Mario Run ▪︎ Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Nintendo 3DS/Nintendo Switch) ▪︎ Super Mario Odyssey ▪︎ Mario Tennis Aces ▪︎ Super Mario Party ▪︎ Super Mario Maker 2 ▪︎ Luigi's Mansion 3 ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. Wonder 2. The Paper Mario universe consists of at least the following games: ▪︎ Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Remake) ▪︎ Super Paper Mario ▪︎ Paper Mario: Sticker Star ▪︎ Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam ▪︎ Paper Mario: Color Splash ▪︎ Paper Mario: The Origami King 3. The Mario + Rabbids universe consists of the following games: ▪︎ Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle ▪︎ Mario + Rabbids: Sparks of Hope 4. The Super Smash Bros. (Toy/Trophy Mario) universe consists of the following games: ▪︎ Super Smash Bros. ▪︎ Super Smash Bros. Melee ▪︎ Super Smash Bros. Brawl ▪︎ Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U ▪︎ Super Smash Bros. Ultimate 5. The live action - Mario universe consists of at least the following movie: ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. (live-action movie) 6. Animated series Mario universe consists of at least the following animated series: ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. ▪︎ Super Mario Bros. 3 ▪︎ Super Mario World 7. Animated Mario Movie universe consists of the following movies: ▪︎ The Super Mario Bros. Movie ▪︎ Upcoming The Super Mario Bros. Movie Sequel 8. Comics Mario univers consits of most of those Mario comics There could be even are few more Mario universes. I think there should be extra pages for characters from each universes, for all the diffrent Marios, Peaches, Bowsers etc. What do you think? Should we do that? Let me know. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 05:16, May 15, 2024 (EDT) As many of us already have said during your proposals, we don't think this is a good idea. While some iterations of the characters are very different, some of them are practically unchanged from the mainline series. Mario as he appears in the Mario + Rabbids games, looks and acts the exact same as Mario as he appears in Super Mario 3D World or Super Mario Odyssey, so there being a page for this guy would be redundant. The Legend of Zelda series canonically has shown many different looking and different acting incarnations of the same characters, and yet the Zelda Wiki does not split these characters up either. And these incarnations can look and act very different from each other. There's no reason for this wiki to do this differently, especially since most characters look and/or act the same. And I know you've said that we don't have to follow the example of the Zelda Wiki, but that doesn't mean we have to do the exact opposite of what they're doing either. We do what fits best for the wiki, and the way we're currently doing in regards of canonicity is just fine. Now I'll be fair here: Bulbapedia (the Pokémon wiki) does in fact split its human characters in several incarnations of the series (anime, manga, the Masters mobile game, etc), but like you said about the Zelda Wiki, we don't have to follow their example. Given the Once and only once policy, having many pages on the same characters would also be difficult to keep track of. And when there is many interpretations of the same characters, perhaps up to twenty given that you've forgotten a variety of other incarnations (to be fair, some of them are Japan-exclusive and VERY obscure), it being hard to keep track of is basically guaranteed. Speaking of which, you've only listed one Comics universe, but of the top of my head, I can think of several (which may not even be all of them), and I don't know which one you're talking about here: There's the Super Mario Adventures comic that was initially published in Nintendo Power There's the Nintendo Comics System, a series of comics published by Valiant Comics. There's the Game Boy comics, a miniseries also published by Valiant Comics. There's the various comics from the German magazine Club Nintendo (unrelated tothe rewards program of the same name). Some of the details in your proposed timeline doesn't even make any sense. Why would Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker be listed twice when it's the exact same adventure (with the only thing being different is whether 3D World or Odyssey directly follows it)? And why would the DLC for the Switch version take place before either? And I'm not sure adding in spinoff titles (particularly from Mario Kart and Mario Party) is a wise idea either. You can say that all of what you're saying is "heavily implied" or "semi-confirmed" as many times as you want, but to me, this all seems like baseless speculation. And we cannot have that on an objective wiki like this. rend (talk) (edits) 07:19, May 15, 2024 (EDT) 1. IS THIS "Mario + Rabbids Mario" RABBID MARIO OR NOT!? 2. True. 3. Yes, true on that. 4. You missed Super Mario Kun, KC Deluxe, and the other Japanese Comics. 5. I don't see a timeline. 6. Why no Paper Mario OG in the "Paper Mario Universe"? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:54, May 15, 2024 (EDT) @Arend: So, the DLC of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker takes place before NSMB. U Deluxe, because they find the Super Crown here. I don't really know the comics. That's why I wrote just comics. Another thing. I found an article where it's confirmed that Mario + Rabbids is a different universe. https://www.gameshub.com/news/features/mario-rabbids-sparks-of-hope-interview-davide-soliani-combat-worlds-22770/ Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 07:45, May 15, 2024 (EDT) I hate to be blunt here, but after the debate about this in your proposal I think it's clear enough that no one on this wiki agrees with your statements about a canon timeline or universes and no one is going to agree with splitting all characters from all of these "universes". You can believe all this all you like but at this point general consensus is final and this wiki is not doing anything in regards to any of what you say. This debate has got to stop because it's you against everyone else and it's not going to go anywhere anymore. Nightwicked Bowser 07:49, May 15, 2024 (EDT) I do not disagree with the notion of a multiverse on its own but i am against splitting counterparts from "different universes". -- FanOfYoshi 08:03, May 15, 2024 (EDT) Well, we had the 1990 live action movie's counterparts split, but now we don't. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:54, May 15, 2024 (EDT) @NightwickedBowser, @FanofYoshi: Another Option could be to just write one article about the canon timeline / The Mario Multiverse. Then on the other pages you could write something like the Paper Mario universe Version appears in that game. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 08:18, May 15, 2024 (EDT) No one agrees with your given timeline either, "no" means "no". Nightwicked Bowser 08:41, May 15, 2024 (EDT) I DON'T SEE A TIMELINE! SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:54, May 15, 2024 (EDT) @Sonic123, the 1993 movie's counterparts were the only one i was ok with being split, since they were the only ones different enough from the game counterparts. But i digress. -- FanOfYoshi 12:03, May 15, 2024 (EDT) Yeah, it was meant to be 1990's (cause 93 is in the 90's), but I wanted to clarify it also was live-action. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:05, May 15, 2024 (EDT) Okay, look. If you're going to convince me of any of this "timeline" and "multiverse" idea, at the very least I need a citation — not a "strong implication", not a "semi-confirmation", a citation — that these various Mario continuities are not just various Mario continuities but are actually all connected through some sort of multiversal structure. We must remember that not all fiction automatically works that way, which I see people forget often.. I say this because if they're not, if Paper Mario (character) from "the Paper Mario universe" is the only thing we're ever going to get... then what is the point in making the distinction? No character from "the Nintendo Comics System universe" is ever going to interact with a character from "the 2023 film universe" because, if there is no multiverse (and without a citation we have no reason to believe there is), neither of them exists within the context of each others' story. And if these "universes" are never going to be contrasted, then there's no reason to treat them as separate entities. The differences between them are no different than the differences between games. Ahemtoday (talk) 17:26, May 15, 2024 (EDT) @Ahemtoday: ▪︎ You know I have a few links here. This confirms Super Smash Bros. characters are Toys based on the real characters (it's a different universe) http://time.com/3747342/nintendo-ceo-satoru-iwata/ That confirms Mario + Rabbids is a seperate universe. https://www.gameshub.com/news/features/mario-rabbids-sparks-of-hope-interview-davide-soliani-combat-worlds-22770/ For the normal/main Super Mario universe and the Paper Mario universe we have this. https://www.nintendo.com/en-gb/Games/Nintendo-3DS-games/Mario-Luigi-Paper-Jam-Bros-1026143.html Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 18:56, May 15, 2024 (EDT) You misunderstand my question. You have presented citations supporting that these stories are disconnected, but I've seen those already. If you are to convince me that this distinction is to be cared about at all, let alone to the degree you suggest, you first have to prove to me that they are connected as well beyond one poorly-received RPG. If there is no relationship between these universes, then there is no reason for the wiki to care about the differences between them, because they will never matter. Ahemtoday (talk) 20:34, May 15, 2024 (EDT) @Ahemtoday: If I'm being honest. The Super Smash Bros. and Mario + Rabbids universes are both inspired by the main Mario universe, so no they aren't directly connected. The Paper Mario universe on the other hand is directly connected to the main Mario universe. As seen in Mario + Luigi: Paper Jam. The Paper Mario universe exists in a book, which is found in Princess Peach's Castle. The events of Paper Mario: Sticker Star lead directly into Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, which than leads directly to Paper Mario: Color Splash. There The Paper Koopalings are introduced which was foreshadowed by the normal Koopalings in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. That's why I made the Proposal only about splitting the Mario universes and the Paper Mario universes and not the others as well. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 21:56, May 15, 2024 (EDT) Uhh, ok, but that WOULD lead to a weird precedent (which I thought had been set by the 1993 Live-Action Movie counterparts being split, but I thought wrong). SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:43, May 16, 2024 (EDT) @SONIC123CDMANIA: 1. No, it's not Rabbid Mario. It's Mario from the Mario + Rabbids Universe. 2. Yeah I don't know all those Mario comics. 3. This is the timeline. 4. I don't know if the OG Paper Mario is in the Paper Mario universe. There are 3 options: A: It's in the Main Mario Universe B: It's in the Paper Mario Universe C: It's in both Universes Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 23:00, May 15, 2024 (EDT) Ok. 1, weird. 2, MarioWiki covers the comics. 3, Honestly, mine is better. 4, That's tricky, because Paper Mario is referenced in TTYD & SPM, so it seems to be B, but it could be C. A is ruled out because of PM being referenced in TTYD & SPM. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:43, May 16, 2024 (EDT) With the recent edit bringing me back to this page, I just noticed that claim of yours. What possible reason is there to believe TTYD and SPM take place in a separate universe that is not also present for the original Paper Mario. This is nonsense. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:54, May 16, 2024 (EDT) @SONIC123CDMANIA: 1. That's not weird. They are created in a wash mashine. 2. Yeah but I don't care about them. Someone else can edit those pages. 3. I don't even know what your headcanon timeline is? Can you tell me about it? 4. Ok. Than B or C. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 15:49, May 16, 2024 (EDT) @Ahemtoday: It's not. The original Paper Mario was originally planned as SMRPG2, in Japan it's even called Mario's Story. The characters from that game also appear in Mario Party and Super Mario 64 DS. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 15:49, May 16, 2024 (EDT) Then explain Bow's appearance and dialogue in Thousand-Year Door, and Lumpy's entire story. Nightwicked Bowser 15:53, May 16, 2024 (EDT) You guys are racking too many nerves debating with someone who, to put it in extremely mild terms, is not even willing to be persuaded. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:01, May 16, 2024 (EDT) Big Super Mario Fan will also not persuade us, therefore any more debating on both sides is pointless and is best to just end it right here and now. I already said the consensus is clear that the wiki is not doing anything that Big Super Mario Fan says with the sheer opposition there is. Nightwicked Bowser 16:08, May 16, 2024 (EDT) @NightwickedBowser: - Who's Bow? And what's his appearance and dialogue in Thousand-Year Door? And who is Lumpy? And what's his entire story? - You're not the king of england. The MarioWiki consits of many people. So you don't know Who's on my side and who isn't. I'm new here, working my ass off and would like to contribute fresh creative ideas to the MarioWiki. And that's the thanks for that. Then don't let new people in if you're incapable of criticism and don't know how to have proper, objective discussions. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 19:14, May 16, 2024 (EDT) @Koopa con Carne: I'm willing to be persuaded. But your arguments suck. That's the harsh truth. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) 19:17, May 16, 2024 (EDT)

That's enough of this discussion. Disengage and don't bring this up again. Mario^-HOHO! (Talk / Stalk) 19:32, May 16, 2024 (EDT)