MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/1: Difference between revisions
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#[[Image:MiniMario.png|29px]]<small>'''[[User:Minimariolover10|<span style="font-Family:font; color:Red;">Minimariolover10</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Minimariolover10|<span style="font-Family:font; color:Red;">TALK TO ME ABOUT MINIES!!</span>]]'''</small> My reasons given above | #[[Image:MiniMario.png|29px]]<small>'''[[User:Minimariolover10|<span style="font-Family:font; color:Red;">Minimariolover10</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Minimariolover10|<span style="font-Family:font; color:Red;">TALK TO ME ABOUT MINIES!!</span>]]'''</small> My reasons given above | ||
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Revision as of 17:13, October 2, 2007
User FairnessACCEPTED 10-3 We keep a strict line on user behavior here, but should we set it in stone as a policy? Would contain:
Proposer: Wa Set in Stone
Leave it Unsaid
CommentsAll I'm saying is that we aren't stupid, people should have enough common sense to understand that if they are rude, they have to go home.SaudyTalk! Can we define "personal attacks" before implementing the policy? In any case, I wasn't aware that this wasn't written down... I guess it's really an extension of the "final judgment" of moderators... or whatever we refer to it as here. Anyway, on absolutely every online community I've ever been to, moderators are allowed to do whatever they feel necessary to keep the peace, but maybe this will help community newbies understand better. I'm in favor of the edit wars thing, but I have my own ideas for how it should be settled. I think if an edit war arises, however, we need to move right to the talk page of that particular article and vote on the edits, returning the next day. If we say, "No edit wars," I feel it is too open ended and may lead to people backing down on issues that are important to them for fear that it may be considered a war. I'm not saying an edit war is acceptable in some cases, I just feel that we need to define it more. --Stumpers (EDITED by Stumpers) This might sound cruel, but if you don't have enough common sense, you deserve to be banned. I have yet to see how this would affect anything for the better not making it a rule. Phoenix Rider PatrollersKEPT 8-5 I have heard this issue in chat. We have ended up battling vandalism very well after a bad rash, so patrollers have become obsolete. The only patroller who has used his powers actively was Great Gonzo, who I promoted to sysophood two days ago. So is it time to remove the patroller group? Currently Confused (talk) and Aipom (talk) are patrollers. Proposer: Wa Keep
Get Rid Of
CommentsWhat does it mean to "use patrolling powers properly"?
I'm on around 6 AM and 3PM on weekdays. On Saturday, I'm pretty much on all the time.-- You know, I was up and on at 6 AM today, and saw not one patroller for hours and hours. No trolls either. Trolls are sad, sad things, but I doubt even they can afford to get up at 6 AM to terrorize us.SaudyTalk! Peer ReviewsDELETED 7-5 So far, they aren't working out well and people are ignoring them. Proposer: Keep
Get rid of
CommentsIt's a good idea, but no one is using it. Therefore, it is pointless.
Mario Awards: Wiki or ForumFORUM 8-0 The very exciting Mario Awards (Saturday August 11th), an all-day event, will cap off with a 4-hour ceremony (7-11p EDT), presenting the results of the 30 awards to be voted on starting Sunday June 10. However, should this excellent event be
Here I list some facts (not pros/cons) for both. Look carefully. Proposer: Wa
WikiNone Forum
Move ChatTIE 4-4 In order to deter trollers and protect this silly little anniversary thing, it has come to the attention of many that the chat should be moved back to the forums. This move has not previously been opposed, it has merely been put off.
Proposer: Hk Let it lie where it is
Move Chat to Forum
CommentsPeople seem to believe this Willy guy is going away soon. Take a look-- he's been here forever. One of the first big things I did on this wiki a year ago was move pages back to their rightful name after Willy had his first bout of fun. He ISN'T going anywhere.SaudyTalk!
PAIRACCEPTED 8-0 Panel for Article Improvement and Recognition PAIR is the new [proposed] system to replace Peer Reviews, which were scrapped after no edits. Credit to Stumpers for inspiration/beginnings of the idea behind the system. It partially would use the "FlaggedRevs" extension on MediaWiki, which will work when MediaWiki version 1.11 will come out (we are on 1.10 right now). That is, if this is voted in, we can wait for 1.11 to come out (it can come out at any time), or start ahead of time, doing things manually. Let me explain the basis for how this will work:
By manually, reviews would be temporarily done on the talk page until 1.11 comes out. Proposer: Wa Use the System
Not EffectiveCommentsThis is probably too early to tell, but here's what I'm worried about, and it's inspired by Cobold's point. For this to be effective, we're going to have to make this system as fast as possible so people don't get bored. Are there any ways that we could trim down on the system? It might work as is, but I just don't want to have it go for a bad run and then have everyone abandon it like the Peer Reviews. It also might help if we could see this visually, like with a diagram. Who knows, though. Maybe all this needs is just a chance to see the system in motion. In any case, I think this is our best bet to keep the FAs. Stumpers! 12:59, 7 June 2007 (EDT)
Monitor CursingMONITOR 12-2 Cursing is a nasty thing, and there are children on this site. Should it be banned officially? Proposer: SaudyTalk! Ban it hard
What'd be the point?
CommentsThis is really just to get some use out of the system, as we all have enough foresight to determine the results on this one.SaudyTalk! It depends on how extreme some of the words are. Maybe only if the word is actually used in the Marioverse ("Hell" in the DK Rap), but that's the only exception. Actually, "Hell" isn't too bad, since The Underwhere is modelled after it. But again, only when necessary, if ever. Booster
There's no word censor in MediaWiki. I'm not sure if there is an extension for one. Wa
Oh, what the hell? I'm sorry, but this is the stupidest thing I've seen you people argue about. If a curse word is needed as part of a quote/script/site name/game name/whatever, so be it. This is an encyclopedia, not My First Dictionary First Grade Edition. Actually, that would be better. Most of those dictionaries list curses too. Only a few instances of blatant profanity being a problem can be sited. Don't make a problem out of nothing. --
Ummmm...... EVERYONE curses, me, you, and ... well..... a greayt proportion of all humanity. Personal Attacks are already banned, I don't see the need of banning the occasional vulgar phrase. And what, may I ask, describes a "curse word"? Is there a specific requirment? I think this is dumb.... - Ultimatetoad We want this site to appear professional. How about we just not use these (censored for the sake of kids but you know what they are): fu**, co**, sh**, bi***, as*, cu**, fa*, ect. There should already be rules against racist slurs and insults against groups of certain people, re***d, ni**a, ch**k, ect. If it's used in certain context like location or not as an insult, it can be acceptable, queer, hell, gay, ect.
It definately should be allowed in the encyclopedia if it ever comes up. If somone is can read they have most likely heard every swear word, and if they havn't they will not be scared for life. They are part of the english language and if there is a purpose for on of them to be used in the database they should not be censored. It not this websites job to babysit children. p.s. asshole and idiot do not mean the same thing in any context. several of you seem ot be confused about this. Threegee I changed it...
The MissingLink Alright, there are only two times when I could see it, because there are two "swears" in the whole of the "Marioverse" thing. The first is obviously the DK64 rap, and the second is a NPC in Mario Tennis: Power Tour, who says, "We suck!" referring to a school that lost a championship. That's it. Finito. End of story. Why is this being such an issue? :) Stumpers! 01:23, 7 June 2007 (EDT) What about the obvious Underwhgere=Hell thing? As Threegee said, it is not our job babysit kids on this site. It should be used when it is needed, and Suck is NOT a cuss word. - Ultimatetoad
So why shouldnt we use it when talking among ourselves? If it is appropriate, like saying "Damn it!" when something bad happens, and not doing it excessivly..... - Ultimatetoad But, even right there, when you said "not doing it excessivly" that's still a sort of ban... I don't know. Maybe we should just put a message on the front page that notes that talk pages are fair game. Oh, and btw, suck isn't a cuss, I know. It is rude, though, and you wouldn't find it on an encyclopedia page ;) Stumpers! 00:30, 12 June 2007 (EDT) Welcoming CommitteeACCEPTED 7-1 I propose a Welcoming Committee that will be run by yours truly. The welcoming comtiee will make sure Every User gets a welcome, welcoming will not be restricted to just Committee members everyone can help. The Committee will also help users with user stuff and mariowiki stuff, a Committee member will have had to be aroud for a while, be able to handle stress, and great knowledge of WikiSyntax. I see how this Committee will do no harm, besides all it will do is help. Proposer: Support
OpposeCommentsBean, you need a better reason than that, and I already said we could help newbies without a committee, Hk.
So I can add comittee members, cause you don't want a new user showing up and asking someone for help but they don't know what to do. all I'm saying is I want people who know what their doing to be the comitttee. And the leader (Me) make sures that they know what their doing...You don't members who can barely help themselves on it.
Well if this get added, I'd certainly consult the other guys before adding new members... 5 LinksKEPT 6-4 I propose to remove the Only 5 links in sig rule. It doesn't seem to make any sense. Proposer: Support
Oppose
CommentsMost people don't look at all five links so they're useless, and its annoying when i try to respond to someone and I have to llok through all the links. It should be no more than 10, but 5 is too little. 7 is OK, right?
Max2 (talk) That's fair, right? Maybe 8 to play it safe. Actually, just leave the links alone if you don't want to click them. And just click their userpage one, and go to the talk tab, Gonzo. 2 "Other" pages usually = other userpages or articles, which are either banned or useless. Wa again. Just because you think they're useless doesn't mean they are. Max2 (talk) Yeah. Max's plan seems good, but he left out contribs.
well, that's a different story. How about at least 6 links? Max2 (talk) The userpage is almost always the first one. And SLS's one is the first one.
What he said. and article links. and about... 2 users actually have 3 or more subpages. Max2 (talk)
because, it's convinient... and it's helpful... and just because You and washi don't need them doesn't mean we don't. Max2 (talk)
Well, we'll see how many do at the end of the week. I feel very strongly that is a silly rule. Just because one or two people find something useless doesn't mean it is.SaudyTalk!
I think 5 is a perfect number. Userpage, talkpage and subpage, nothing more, nothing less. I hardly see the point in linking wiki articles, I can see why people link them, but geez, why adding even more slot for something tottaly pointless? And that signature check was a godsend for me, when you fear that Plumber send you a message because his sig will lag your computer, you know there's something wrong. Gofer Writer GuidelinesACCEPTED 7-0
Recently, a discussion has arrisen in regards to the future of the Big Eight page. Several users, including myself, see an issue with the amount of fanon in the category. Please view the talk page for individual ideas. Main concerns include the lack of any such category in the Marioverse and the level of favoritism involved in choosing characters. Another idea is that the Big Eight page would do better under the title MarioWiki:Big Eight as it is more of a guide for writers on the Wiki than an actual Mario element. Please post ideas for change or support for the page as is! Thank you! Stumpers! 13:52, 20 June 2007 (EDT) If we make this a guideline, we'll have to make the other pages guidelines (i.e. Marioverse). Proposers: Stumpers! and Knife (talk) Keep as ArticlesMake them Writer Guidelines
CommentsWhat exactly would it mean to make them writer guidelines? Want to know quick. User:Fixitup
I fail to see how making an article like this a guideline will fix anything. What we need to do is decide who should really be a part of the big eight or decide to take down the article! I see no improvement right now and find it unfair. Am I understanding this correctly? User:Fixitup
Ok that makes that better, but I still don't see how this solves who should be a part of the big eight and who shouldn't. This just doesn't provide me the options I was hoping for. User:Fixitup Sorry to step in, but if you oppose, you should vote, not just comment.Knife (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2007 (EDT) Yeah, the problem is I'm not sure how to resolve the selection thing. :( Oh, well. Baby steps I guess. Stumpers! 01:13, 23 June 2007 (EDT) Um..well if you were reading carefully I ended up supporting making it a guideline I'm just upset that the only thing being done is that so whatever, time to vote. User:Fixitup They're basicly fan conceptions, same with Filler Characters. -- Sir Grodus Maintenance CommitteeACCEPTED 5-0 I propose a Maintenance Committee that will be run by democracy. The committee will ensure that Orphaned pages will be linked, unused files will be tagged for deletion or used, unlabeled PIs will be deleted, and other maintenance work will be done. Anyone who is up for it can join the committee. Proposer: Support
MarioBros777 It's Back to Editing!!! I think this is a great idea it gives people a chance, should have joined earlier GO DEMOCRACY!!!! OpposeCommentsI'm putting all new committees on the Wiki Maintenance page (to expand it). I might rename this the Technical Committee. Wa FAs BebackACCEPTED 4-0 I propose that the FAs, old rating system, old FAs, old FA noms, all of that, be undeleted and restored. The PAIR extension may take a year or more to update, and this way is simpler. Start Using Them Already
Wait Until The Extension For PAIR Comes OutCommentsI already started a poll here, so I pushed back the deadline and transferred votes. Hope you don't mind.Knife (talk) 02:25, 1 July 2007 (EDT) Userbox SystemDECLINED 4-1 I propose we split the userboxes up into subpages and have a new page. Before adding a new userbox the user puts the userbox on the "Userbox Voting" page, then e vote if it should be kept or not added in. This will cut off not so great userboxes and crashing my CP when trying to add new ones XP. Also another reason for this is people are flying sloppy userboxes in to prevent the picture from being their PIs, thus filling the page will odd userboxes.
Proposer: SupportOppose
CommentsWell I'll keep it clean and voting wouldn't be odd... Monobook ReskinREJECTED 7-3 This may sound VERY insane to all of you, but I would like the wiki reskinned to black? This is not because it looks slicker (though I think it does :P ), it is because it saves power. Just use www.blackle.com as an example (Currently 112,468.241 Watt hours saved). If this is accepted, anyone who likes the white can just ask me to make the wiki look how it used to again. Proposer: Support
Oppose
CommentsYou can change the text color you know. We'd have light blue text, it looks nice.SaudyTalk! Should we perhaps take it up with Porplemontage? He did create the default monobook and you can't do anything without his permission regardless of whether this proposal is won. Ask him first.Knife (talk) 00:17, 25 July 2007 (EDT)
Don't do it. Hk, it's dark and creepy. I'm not trying to insult, but make your own Emo monobook, don't change bright colors most of us enjoy. Max2 (talk) Either way, Steve will say no. Take back that Emo comment if you know what's good for you.SaudyTalk! All I'm saying is, go be dark and creepy somewhere else. There are a lot of people here who hate black. Max2 (talk) More than you 3 who like it. Max2, this has NOTHING to do with black or how it's cool. It's about the fact that it consume less power. Gofer It'll consume less power because NO BODY WILL JOIN WHEN THEY THINK WERE ALL GOTHS OR SOMETHING. And then we'd have to change the logo, which teve would like never say yes to, I've heard. Max2 (talk) The power play is that black costs less energy to power up.SaudyTalk! and then there would be a huge decrease in new guests. Face it, Mario is for kids. Kids like bright. Not dark. Max2 (talk) If it costs less energy to run, that means it also costs less MONEY....SaudyTalk! but at the cost of less users. Max2 (talk) Don't we want more users? Isn't Steve on a frugal streak as of now? I mean, look at the ads!SaudyTalk! Why is black instantly associated with evil, creepy, Goth, and Emo? That's actually a bad stereotype, you guys. Jeez. Because something is dark, that doesn't mean its diseased or something.SaudyTalk! It doesn't cost me anything more or less. The "causing less energy to run" argument takes place on the user's side because their monitor will use less energy to display the site. --Steve (talk) That's how i thought it would work. Too bad for me!SaudyTalk! why can't you think of like blue or something? Scroll BoxesREMOVED 4-1 The template {{scroll box}} is used in Big Eight articles for galleries, quotes, and navigation templates to make the articles look shorter. If the proposal of removing them is accepted, the template should still be kept, as it is used outside of the Big Eight articles as well. Proposer: Cobold (talk · contribs) 15:11, 27 July 2007 (EDT) Due Date: Friday, August 3, 20:00 EDT Support Removal
OpposeCommentsPorplemontage (talk) also said he doesn't like them. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 15:11, 27 July 2007 (EDT) Banner ChangeACCEPTED 3-0 Proposer: Fixitup 15:32, 30 July 2007 EDT Agreed Upon  Support
OpposeCommentsI think we should he atleasts Mario, Luigi, Bowser,Peach,Yoshi,and Wario in the banners. The MissingLink
Basically. Fixitup The above is something I whipped up. There is a version of the WIKI STUFF banner without Toad and another without Yoshi, I added them because there ended up being room. So everyone please tell me what you think and how I could improve or if they are fine as is. Fixitup
I left this message on Plumber's discussion page and thought I should address it to anyone else who wanted Bowser as well. I know you probably like Bowser but putting him in with Wario and Waluigi without making it look god awful isn't possible. He just doesn't blend well there and to make him proportioned is just out of the question. Trust me, you don't even wanna see how far I got before noticing it wasn't gonna happen. Unless you can actually get me a perfectly transparent bg for all of the Itadaki Street DS art then I can't do it. Fixitup Featured ImagesOPPOSED 4-3 There is already the {{Featured-image}}, we should use it. The system will be exactly like the original FA system. Proposer: Support
Oppose
CommentsActually, there's plenty of style to talk about. If you don't think you can think of something to say about a picture, then maybe we need to practice here. Example: Princess Peach in Brawl Princess Peach (SSBB) Trouble CenterTRY A COMEBACK 7-5 Face it, folks. The Trouble Center has been rarely used in 2007 after an initial burst, I don't think at all this summer. It's meant for newbies or the experienced to get article help where they cannot, such as knowledge of classic or obscure games. But, both of these kinds of members have fallen through: very few newbs become full members here and usually ask a veteran instead or don't have any questions for article content; veterans work at what they are strongest OR are more involved in sub-communities such as Fantendo or Userpedia instead. Our community is just not big enough to sustain the ideal function that was set last year. Oh well, but we would survive. Proposer: Wa Drop It
Try a Comeback
Commentsum... veterans leavig is true. and that the Trouble Center is like never used... and the fact that some of our users spend way more time at other wikis... but we're sure as heck not low on community! Max2 (talk)
New Feature: MarioWiki: ChronologyADD POLICY 8-0 This is a proposal to impliment a new writing policy that would give order to writing about Mario's fictional universe. MarioWiki: Chronology provides a framework for writing about Mario's "history", as well as settle disputes about where to place items in a "History" or "Biography" section. The intent is not to say what we are writing is the official chronology, only Nintendo can say that. The purpose of the chronology policy is to provide a guide for writers when trying to place the order of games in a history section. Proposer: Son of Suns Add
Don't AddCommentsTo Plumber, we would simply be putting them in order of release unless it was obvious that it must be somewhere else. Luigi's Mansion is not speculation, it is in order of release. References are made to the game in titles released afterwards, so it cannot be at the end. We are not speculating on its placement, we are putting it where Nintendo gave it to us. -- Son of Suns The Terrible Big FandomDELETED 9-0 Ok people, I'm just sick and tired of even seeing the words "Big Eight". The article is totally nothing but fanon cruft. I think we should just get rid of the article and any mentioning of it within other articles. When you look at it this way all the article is saying is "Uh ok these eight characters appeared playable in early spin-offs before other people and a lot of them are used a lot in their own games or a mainstream game so they are the most important eight characters and since a lot of people think so it is a fact.". Maybe I'm exaggerating, but I don't think so. Oh and, no adding or removing of any characters could fix this thing. WE MUST DESTROY IT WITH FIRE (no not literally) Proposer: Fixitup Kill It
Nah Leave The FanonCommentsWhile some characters are obliviousy important than other, deciding who is a Big Eight and who is not is more of an opinion than anything. Per example, do Toad really qualify? Sure, he have his own game... but all he do nodaway is appearing in some spinoff. I don't see the point in it, anyway. Gofer
Reformat Featured Articles...again!ADD POLICY 9-0 Featured Articles are an important part of any wiki, and I think it is about time we get users excited about featured articles again. I am propsing we do away with the new PAIR system, and institute a new, simpler system I developed (but heavily based on the successful Wookiepedia FA guidelines). By making the nomination process open to more users, and making it simpler, we will encourage people to get involved in the FA process. This new system will be like the original, but stagnant nominations will be removed after a month of inactivity. That way, we can avoid having huge lists of nominations if no one is working on the articles. All new featured article nominations would have to be recast. If we do not have a featured article by the time the new main page is up, we should invite users to help the Super Mario Wiki find its first featured article. Here is what the featured article nomination page will look like: The featured articles of the wiki are articles that represent the best the Super Mario Wiki has to offer. This is not a way to showcase the articles of your favorite characters, items, or the like. An article must…
First, nominate an article you find is worthy of featured status, putting it at the bottom of the list below; see criteria above. Note that a previously featured article cannot be featured on the Main Page again; however, it can be restored to featured status if there are no other featured articles in queue. Others will object to the nomination if they disagree that the article is good enough; they will then supply reasons for doing so, and ways to improve the article (errors, style, organization, images, notability, sources). Supporters adjust the article until the objectors (with reasonable objections) are satisfied. The article is placed on the featured article list and added to the front page queue. Also, if, at least a week after the article's nomination, that article has five supports and no objections, it will be added to the queue, and will be officially known as a "featured article". How to vote: Before doing anything, be sure to read the article completely, keeping a sharp eye out for mistakes. Afterwards, compare the article to the criteria listed above, and then either support or object the article's nomination. If you object, please supply concrete reasons for doing so, and how it can be improved. Please cite which rule your objection falls under. Failure to do so will result in your objection being considered invalid. As stated above, any objections will be looked upon by the nominator, supporters, and anyone willing to improve the article, and action will be taken to please the objectors. Once all objectors' complaints have been solved (or the article has five supports and no objections after at least a week), the article will be added to the queue and be officially known as a "featured article". Also remember to add nominated at the top of the article you are nominating. Every Sunday the next article in the queue will be highlighted on the Main Page as featured, marked with the featured template and removed from the list of nominations. The beginning of the article then appears on the Main Page via the featured articles template. Nominees that are inactive for a month will be eliminated from the nominations list. Proposer: Son of Suns Use this New System
Use the Old PAIR SystemCommentsTo Cobold: I can keep the templates in existence so people can review freelance. Wa
The system is good, but whatever we decide, we need to get a system and lock it in. As of right now, rules governing FAs have been all over the place. Phoenix Rider
Super Mario Sunshine "Secret" AreasKEEP 2-5 Pages such as The Shell have been created as pages in their own right. I don't think that they are special enough to be credited in their own right simply because they are "Secret" areas. Besides, you actually need them to finish the game. I'm a little put off by the existence of PipeProject: Levels, however, because they are technically levels. Proposer: Phoenix Rider Delete themKeep them
Luigibros2
CommentsWalkazo - The Shell is a place, and while the corresponding mission is calles "The Shell's Secret", it's not actually a "Secret Level", which is what I think all the confusion is about here. And while we're on the subject of Super Mario Sunshine places, I think there should be a category for Super Mario Sunshine Places. That way the sub-areas and the normal areas can be viewed along side each other. Unused Image DeadlineALLOW MORE TIME 9-0 Recently, a user uploaded an image at 23:07, 29 August 2007. Said image was marked for deletion as an unused image at 23:13, 29 August 2007, six minutes later. While I believe the tag was placed there in good faith, it was still a case of jumping the gun. A while back, I made a note that an image should be used as soon as it is uploaded and was backed by Wayoshi. Now, however, I feel that I was a bit to hasty. I'm seeing more and more images that are being marked for deletion as unused images very shortly after said images where uploaded. I know from experience (as do a great many of you) that sometimes dropping images into articles doesn't always work out, for various reasons (a bit of wikicode is malformed, said images looks like crap in chosen placement, etc.). For these reasons, I'm thinking we should extend the limit a bit. Lets say one day for personal images and 12 hours for everything else. What say you all? Proposer: Allow More Time
Delete Right AwayComments
Cool User ListsDELETE 12-6-4 Many users have a section on their userpage listing other community members they like. Often there is unnecessary conflict and even (pardon) stupid flaming when a user removes someone from this list. I say we get rid of all of these sections – there's no need to hurt anyone's feelings over any one of these. True friends – online or offline – can't be simply added or removed from your life on a list. We have a good group dynamic overall in our community, so let's not wreck it. Another option is to rename & rephrase all these lists so they are neutral, such as "User Neighbors I Know", though removing users could still bring questions and trouble. Proposer: Wa Delete Them All
Rephrase for Neutrality
Keep As Is
CommentsCould we do something like, users we've come across? or at least something like that. Master Crash
While I agree that we should nuke the cool user list, I have the impression it would create a flame war as bad as the one over the removal of featured article. Thus, I'm kind of neutral on it. Glowsquid I havn't seen a flame war, yet, but its stupid to fight over something like this!
can i do two? 0_o Re-Add Banjo and Conker ArticlesNOT PASSED 8-9 I've been thinking about this for a long time, and this proposal is to gauge how users would react to the re-inclusion of Banjo and Conker info into the wiki. Banjo and Conker first appeared in Diddy Kong Racing, and their series developed out of that game. As such, Donkey Kong, Banjo, and Conker are believed to exist in a greater DK Universe (and an extension of the Marioverse). As we have been redefining our view of remakes, that they are not replacements but supplements to the originals, I feel Banjo and Conker should have a place here. Just because Diddy Kong Racing DS is a remake that removed these two characters does not mean Banjo and Conker don't have their origins in the Donkey Kong series. Ultimately, there are many reasons for their inclusion in this wiki, and many reasons for their exclusion. All are valid. I don't want to start any flame wars, and I do not want make this a big deal. Please keep all discussions about this respectful. I just want to see if a majority of users would like Banjo and Conker content reintegrated at this time, or if they do not. Somehow I feel this info will eventually become a part of the wiki, as they are part of the greater world Nintendo and Rare created out of the Donkey Kong series, but this may not happen for a long time. Here are the details of the proposal that would go into effect:
Proposer: Son of Suns Recreate Banjo and Conker Articles
Leave Banjo and Conker Articles Out of the Wiki
CommentsI agree on everything you have said except two things you may want to take into consideration
As Plumber said, an encyclopedia is for information. Using the "A kid could see it!" logic, any depiction of genitalia in paper encyclopedia should be censored since a kid can read it. Conker? I am kind of neutral on it. However, I'm all for the re-inclusion of banjo content sincee Titup, a minor character in both Banjo Kazzoie and Tooie (I think he was also in pilot, but not too sure.), reappered in DKRDS. Glowsquid Walkazo: Well, actually, Mario could be considered a spin-off of Donkey Kong. Glowsquid
To Plumber, we can import from Rare Wiki, but only Banjo and Conker content of course. We created that wiki, so we have the right to re-import the information. For crossovers, I think it depends on what the crossover features. For example, Super Smash Bros. features Mario, so it's one degree away from the Mario series. However, Wario vs. Bomberman features Wario, who is one degree away, so this crossover would be another degree away. Maybe? Well, we can sort all that out again later, but for now crossovers will be Secondary if this proposal passes. To others, this is an encyclopedia. We don't need to censor information for children. It's all available on Wikipedia anyways, which I am sure many of you frequent. And why should we censor information to children? Don't they have a right like any other person to choose what they want to learn about? And people have already asked if they could include other Zelda information and we simply explain they can't. Problem solved. I think Walkazo has the best reason for opposing: in her opinion, they are too far removed. Users have to decide how far they want to follow the spin-off series, as Banjo and Conker are spin-offs of spin-offs. I am willing to go that far. Well, that's my two cents. -- Son of Suns
SoS, for once, I disagree. Wikipedia, one out of a hgundred users is a kid. Mariowiki, I think you are like one of 3 adults. Why should us kids be penalized because of that? Max2 (talk)
Let me give my opinion... Leaving out of account whether a game like Conker's Bad Fur Day would be appropriate for children - why in the world would an article about that game be not appropriate for children in any way? The article describes the game. I guess the game is M rated because of containing violence? Well... so what? The article won't contain any violence! I don't understand why you seem to confuse promotion for a game with information about a game. Or do you think history lessons in school should be abolished in order to protect children from information about wars? Would be quite dumb, right? / Time Q 13:09, 15 September 2007 (EDT)
You both make some very good points. We will not be writing articles promoting the game or any behaviours in the game, but merely describe them academically, and respectably (if this proposal passes that is; it's something I believe in, but will not force upon people). It's not like we won't be sensitive to children in regards to certain material, but it doesn't need to be censored. These articles will be purely informative, and avoid raunchiness (we will use academic terms, instead of lower language). That's what Mario Wiki is all about - writing objective, informative articles. =) -- Son of Suns I wonder... Why we couldn't create a template that would warn the reader about offensive/innapropriate content and put it on the Conker Bad fur day-related page? Glowsquid
I think people are blowing this "sensory issue" way out of proportion. As Son of Suns said, we'd be using academic terms to describe the more mature subject matter, and since this is an encyclopedia and should contain all the information pertaining to Mario as we writers can find. It's not our fault if people find one thing or another offensive, as long as we write about it in good taste we're just writing the truth. Also, as SoS pointed out, there's no telling what people are going to get fussy over: I know people (myself included) who disapprove of Mario slaughteing thousands of Goombas on his way to save Peach - that's pretty violent. Then again, so's Bowser forcing his children to fight Mario, or Ash forcing his pet electric mouse to fight firebreathing dragons in Pokémon (and the Super Smash Bros. series)... The point is, there's a lot more than Conker's Bad Fur Day that will get (some) people mad on this site, and we can't help that. If worst comes to worst, we can put up a general warning on the main page. That way we can be sure no parents are gonna come busting our chops, and not have to worry about what subject matter would warrent the use of a "warning template" on an individual article. - Walkazo Max2, if they made a Mario First Person Shooter rated M, would we cover info in that? ~Uniju(T-C-E)
Well, Conker's Bad Fur Day is rated M for a reason. But we would not be promoting the rated M material, we would be describing academically, as Wikipedia does. I do believe Banjo and Conker are related to Mario, as they went on adventures with Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong prior to the events of Diddy Kong Racing, as stated by the instruction manual. They were all buddies before the events of the game. -- Son of Suns
I must also note there is a moral to Conker's Bad Fur Day. It's not just empty jokes - it all leads to a very dramatic and emotional climax, where a real lesson is taught to the players. -- Son of Suns
Just for the record, if a Mario First Person Shooter was made, we would cover it. It being a Mario game and this being a Mario wiki. -- I don't think the maturity thing is a valid oppose, as nothing should get in our way of contributing to the wiki and making more articles. If some really have a problem with a content, we could put {{mature}} on the top of the page. Also, Vruet, none of those series originated from the Smash series, so we wouldn't make any further articles about them. RXCUSE ME MR. DP!!! KIDS ARE OBNOXIOUS THESE DAYS!!! Forgive me, but what the H*** is THAT supposed to mean. We have hundreds of kids on hear already..... a couple weeks ago, I was one. And for the record, do you know how easy it is for a 11-12 yr. old to go onto sights based upon mature content? A MARIO WIKI will be the LAST thing Parents worry about. - Ultimatetoad
1. Sorry, mornings are always a bad time for me. Two. I was'nt actually FLAMIJNG him i don;t think, but his comment did insult half the users here. 3. In my opinion, they WOULDNT CARE. There's worse stuff out there then a game with a bit of gore, and little sexual innuendo in it. - Ultimatetoad
And, i've seen my cousin playing it, thats all there really is. I've seen worse stuff on average on any one episode of family guy, which children without cable can watch every sunday..... As for the too far removed stuff just how too far CAN it be? The DKC series is often considered a seperate series from the Mario one, and it obviously provides a different flavor then most mario games, but it's here. What about the Donkey Konga series? It's a spin-off of a Spin-off, but we cover that. - Ultimatetoad 1. Yes I know, again sorry. 2. the users here arent insulted by being called obnoxious? O.K, maybe half the users here arent kids, but I know at least two below the per-teen level. 3. I've seen sexual innuendo, in my cartoon watching days. on Cartoon Network and Nickolodeon. WORSE STUFF then this wiki wil convey. The Conker games, I'll admit, may not be appropriate for a 7 or 8 year old to play, but the wiki articles will be appropriate for them to read. - Ultimatetoad
I did not say we should take DKC out because it's too unique. I Meant we should leave it in. Again, it all comes down to how far wer're willing to go for a spin-off.... and heres another interesting thought: Was Rare planning the Banjo and Conker games BEFORE or AFTER Diddy Kong Racing? If before, they may have made the games even if DKR was cancelled.... which would have made all the difference, as therw would have been no connection to the marioverse. - Ultimatetoad Another thought: if we allow Banjo and Conker in here, and one day Bottles gets his own series, will we let that series in? - Ultimatetoad
A Banjo caharacter... that would be a spin-spin-spin-off. But, as far as i'm concerned, all things in mario's universe should be covered, and TipTup proves that banjo is indeed in Mario's universe. Conker, has no such proof that I know of, so whatever, but of Banjo we have facts that show his homeland is located in the same world as Mario and Donkey Kong's is... otherwise, how could TipTup have gotten there.? - Ultimatetoad
Maybe we should make a third category... and, for the record, Tiptup's appearence in BK and BT was'nt just a cameo, he was a tangible character that gave you rewards. - Ultimatetoad
Ummm... put the info on here? this is'nt a nintendo only wiki, we have info on games like Hotel MArio, even though there not Nintendo developed. Heck, we could even make an article on Microsoft and the XB360, if this passes through. - Ultimatetoad Conker's a bit harder to place, i'll admit... - Ultimatetoad And, heres a fun fact: There HAS been a MArio FPS. - Ultimatetoad I would agree to add Banjo but leave Conker out, not because of "It's too mature!. stuff (Which for me, is total b****ck.) but rather because there is no tie to the Marioverse past his appearance in Diddy Kong Racing. - Glowsquid, I reallty thinkthis need a 3rd option. There... two new options. - Ultimatetoad
Cobold Max2 & Xzelion: Since an option to add Banjo content but leave Conker out have been added, and your reasons for opposing are against Conker, could you please change your votes, or the reasons behind them? Glowsquid SOS, have you read ANY of these reasons? why did you take the two new things out. - Ultimatetoad
BJ is a stuffed head and Kazooie's an umbrella, THATS a cameo. But You can TALK to Tiptup, and he gives you items. Thats not a cameo. And also, is'nt this supposed to be a democracy? three users agree with this idea, but you don't so you can remove it? Did'nt you leave a few months back because another user was doing the same thing?!. - Ultimatetoad From an edit summaries: "It's either both or neither, as Banjo, Conker, Donkey Kong, and Diddy Kong are friends" + :You can't change the proposal like that. Banjo and Conker are friends. Their series emerged from Diddy Kong Racing, neither had a franchise before. Tiptup is not a Banjo character per-se, he can be considered a cameo character. I moved all votes to oppose, so you may have to change your comments or votes. Just pick yes Banjo and Kazooie appear in the Conker series, so those two series are connected that way. -- Son of Suns to both or no to both. If you accepte one you have to accept the other, as Tiptup is a cameo character. Also, The fact than they are "friends" is irrevalant (plus, it sound retarded.), Conker is completly absent Diddy Kong Racing DS, a remake of the original, some (including me) think that remake are of an higher level of canon than the original game, however, even if Banjo himself is not present, he still somehow have tie to the Marioverse since Titup, a minor Banjo character made an appearance in DKRDS, if they are not in the same world, how he managed to get there? However, the same can't be said for Conker, who has nothing to conect him to the Marioverse appart for his (rectconed) appearance in Diddy Kong Racing. Sincerely - Glowsquid You have to wait for this proposal to expire before creating a completely different one. This is the proposal. Users can't just go around changing every proposal, adding millions of options. I gave these two options, pick one or neither. Also, Slippas appear in Conker's Pocket Tales. -- Son of Suns
When did Donkey Kong go "adventuring with Conker"? and Actually, Glowsquid has a point. A certain type of fish may exist in both North America and Australia, but that deosnt mean it had to start out on either. A man named joe coolex, though can only be in one place at one thime: There can only be one of him. The same is true with the Slippas and tippy. - Ultimatetoad I just did some research - Armies could not be in CPT because it was released BEFORE DK64 ever came out. - Ultimatetoad
Still, the fact than some creatures in Conker Tales are simmilar to other DK creatures is for me, irevalant. Creature that looked, acted and (Not sure) named exactly after the Chain-Chomps appeared in a few Zelda games as enemies. Should we star doing Zelda article because of that? Glowsquid Armies are in Donkey Kong Country. Banjo: Even before the start of his future partnership with Kazooie, Banjo isn't one to turn down the chance of an adventure. So when Squawks brings the message from his pal Diddy Kong, the Honey Bear stuffs a few things into his trusty backpack and takes to his heels. Conker: Another friend made by Diddy Kong on one of his endless adventures with Donkey Kong, Conker is also an exploration nut who'll jump at any chance to break free of a squirrel's less than exciting daily routine. He's eager to join with Banjo as the bear passes through. + This proves a connection between Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Conker, and Banjo. Plus Squawks the Parrot delivers letters to Conker and Banjo, as stated in the story. The parrot does not deliver a letter to Timber or Tiptup or any other character, as the rest besides Krunch live on Timber's Island. Diddy Kong wants extra help, so he sends Squawks to the homes of Banjo and Conker, who do not live on Timber's Island. The Banjo and Conker series emerged from the Donkey Kong series. If DKR was a flop, the Banjo and Conker series may have not been created. It's not all about characters, it's about where franchises come from. The WarioWare series comes from the Wario and Mario series, but no WarioWare characters have ever appeared in a Mario game. Does that mean we don't include those characters? No Conker characters have appeared in a Donkey Kong game. It's the same thing. And the same species cannot emerge in two different places. Law of natural selection prevents that. -- Son of Suns How does that little selection prove anything? Donkey is'nt even MENTIONED in Banjo's profile. and snakes are a very common basis for enemies, CPT and DKC have very different graphical styles, I see no way for you to conclude that these snames in Conker's Pocket Tales are Slippas. - Ultimatetoad
Should the WarioWare series be removed from the wiki as Wario is the only major connection? -- Son of Suns For what we know, Banjo and COnker games may have been in making before Diddy Kong Racing, wheter Diddy Kong Racing may have allowed these two guys to have a game is pure speculation. Unlike Conker, The Wario Ware character didn't get removed in a remake of thhe original game. Glowsquid
I'm not really arguing with you, SOS, but while the link between Banjo and DK is a Character, Conker's link is practically nothing. - Ultimatetoad Think in terms of franchises. Say Mona got a game that took place in a new world, with all new characters, with no references to Wario or anything else from the WarioWare series, we would cover that series, right? Also, I think I am upset that my proposal was changed. I have no hard feelings against anyone, but you can't just subvert the whole proposal. If you just want Banjo, you'll have to oppose this proposal then start a new one later. -- Son of Suns
Right. I'm NOT disagreeing, again (you'll notice my vote is still in the C&B section). The reason those other options were created were to suit some users who felt that way. (Many other proposals, I will point out, have more than one option) I still agree with putting Banjo & Conker in the wiki. - Ultimatetoad I know. Again, this is the proposal I wanted. If you want something different, wait until this proposal expires. Okay. New start. -- Son of Suns Mario was briefly mentioned in Banjo & Kazzoie, just wanted to point that out. Glowsquid
A poster of Berri can be found in Banjo-Tooie. -- Sir Grodus I'd just like to address some earlier statements: WarioWare isn't really a spin-off of the Wario series, since it still stars Wario. I think of it as a sorta sub-series, like Donkey Konga is for Donkey Kong. Wario and Donkey Kong are clearly main characters in the Marioverse, so there should be no question about whether or not these sub-series should be included. - Walkazo I find kind of funny how everyone is complaining about the possibly offensive content on the Conker-related page, and yet, the Bob Hoskins page is not censored. Glowsquid Hey, kids? All this talk about who was in what is irrelevent. OMG, Chain Chomp-like characters in a Zelda game? That's called a cameo, put it in the trivia section for Chain Chomp. This is getting out of hand. The proposal is for Conker and Donkey Kong, focus on the simple part of that for now. If it comes to pass that all is readded, we can debate about the inclusion of mature content and Tiptup then. -- New Subject ArticlesREGULATE 6-0 This proposal would put a bit stricter standards on what articles can be created on new subjects (i.e. those with the Newsubject template). While most are fine, such as the Super Smash Bros. Brawl articles, some are not. I am mostly referring to the mass of fan conjecturally named Super Mario Galaxy articles. Many creatures and planets are given conjectural names, despite the fact they may disappear entirely, or may never be officially named (the planets may just be a part of greater officially named galaxies, and should just be described in the galaxy article in the first place). This proposal would not delete all these articles. They will stay until they can be organized when Super Mario Galaxy and other games are released. However, if this proposal passes, all new subject articles will be regulated from that point on. The criteria would be that the subject must be officially named by some means. Although these names are still considered conjecture until the game is released, they are still officially conjectured names, and will have a name (even if it's changed) when the game is released. All other conjectural information that is not officially named should go in the unreleased game's article (or in the articles of species, characters, places, etc.). The information is fine, but it's not article worthy. Proposer: Son of Suns {{scroll box|content= Regulate the Creation of New Subject Articles
Allow the Creation of Fan Named New Subject ArticlesCommentsAgain, I will note this proposal will not delete all these articles in one fell swoop. You can argue on individual talk pages if you think a certain article should be merged, and take action if there is a consensus. Or you can just wait for the game to come out before making changes. But if this proposal passes, we won't allow something like this Super Mario Galaxy article fiasco happen again. -- Son of Suns Add Banjo-Kazooie ArtcilesDO NOT ADD BANJO CONTENT 2-7 The RecentAdd Banjo - Conker Articles proposer was denied, mainly because of Conker. People thought that he was either too mature, or too hfar removed. Banjo however, has no such problems. His games have all been rated E so far, and the inclusion of Tiptup in Diddy Kong Racing, Diddy Kong Racing DS, Banjo-Kazooie, and Banjo-Tooie, Seems to me worthy to merit Babjo for inclusion on this wiki. As previously stated, Tiptup's appearence in BK - BT was not a cameo- he was alive , and tangible. Nor was it a simple cross-over: Banjo's first appearence was DKR, making the series a SPINOFF of Mario. Other series that included Mario characters/enemies (LoZ,F-Zero, Tetris....) were made with there title characters first appearing in one of there own games. Sooo... vote, and all. Proposer: UltimateToad Add Banjo Articles
Keep Them Out
CommentsWalkthrougth-style level article.ALLOW WALKTHROUGH ARTICLES 7-8 Most article about level's are fine, however a few (BLIZZARD!!! is a big offender.) read like something out of a player guide. Level articles should state:
This is an encyclopedia, an article shouldn't tell where to find that last Flower or how to defeat Koin. If I want that kind of information, I'll go on Gamefaq. Proposer: Glowsquid Prevent the creation of that kind of article and rewrite those already here.
Mewtwo49 Allow the creation of this style of article.
CommentsSoS: There is a distinction betweeen describing what happen in a level and telling the reader what to do. Describing how the level jump from a fortress theme to a lava theme, forest theme... ect and what happen in each portion is interessing and encyclopedic. However, telling the reader how to get the DK Coin hiden by the Zinger in Castle Crush isn't encyclopedic. How is the fact that the fith Red Coin can only be accessed by geting the key and killing the Coin Bandit behind the door encyclopedic and revalent to the Marioverse? I agree we should describe in-depth, but we shouldn't go overboard. Sincerely, Glowsquid
Also, if we just ignore this, the Wiki will be scrap full because of some levels not like this, while a bunch are, making it a mess! We must get rid of all walkthrough to make it seem more perfersonal, like Wikipedia itself. File:MiniMario.pngMinimariolover10 TALK TO ME ABOUT MINIES!! Lario: Not really, a level article can be detailed without having to read like a walkthrought. I think I'll do an example. Detailled Style (Note, all of this is amde up.): "Grab these Coins!" is the sixth level of World 2 in Yoshi's Revenge. The level initially start out in a castle filled with lava, however, the subsequent section take place in a cave full of Bandits." ect. Walthrought-style: "Yoshi should jump on the raillift paltfrom above to gain acces to a bunch of red-coins, try to avoid the jumping sparky and try to defeat all the Fly-Guys holding the red-coins. Then, jump on all the Para-Troopa to get the flower..." ect. (I think you get the idea.) See? You can have plenty of info without making it seem like a walkthrought. - Glowsquid I am striking my vote through, so it won't count in the end, but I want my original reasonings to stay. Also, others agree with my original assessment, that a walkthrough style article is fine, and their votes are still valid. As Glowsquid stated, articles like this won't be deleted on sight, so I don't mind what the wiki decides on how these articles are written. I doesn't matter to me whether they are walkthrough style or not, just as long as they are not deleted. -- Son of Suns Moogle and Stumper: Yes, what happen in the levels is canon. But there is a problem, for what we know, Yoshi might not have got the fourth flower in Make Eggs, Throw Eggs, Donkey Kong might not have found the Bonus Barrel in Reptile Rumble, an article about a level should describe what happen in this level, not tell the player how to do this level. Knowing that X level is the only appearance of the Ghost Barrel is encyclopedic, telling the reader how to get the third flower in Watch Out Below! isn't. as I said earlier, Mushroom Way is a great example on how a level article can be detailled without falling into walkthrought-style writting. Glowsquid
To all who say thaat what happen in the level is canon: Yes, you are right. But the problem is, we don't know what happened exactly in this level! Nintendo never told "Yoshi jumped on X and then collected X thingie." For what we know, Yoshi might never have bothered to collect these coins and might have accesed the Extra level by other means. Plus, how is the fact tht X flower is in X location in X levels revelant to the Marioverse? Should we tell the location of every ? Block? Glowsquid
I am not saying BLIZZARD!!! is the best article, but even if it is re-written, it should state the location of important items, just as the Mushroom Way article does (regardless if the article says "Yoshi had to go under the snow to get a Flower" or "a Flower is located under a pile of snow in the second section of the level"). -- Son of Suns
Improvement Drive IdeaADD THE DRIVE 9-2 I think we should have a project similar to Featured Articles and the Pipe Plaza, where, instead of pointing out the best articles, we point out the ones that need Work, so users can all work on one project, instead of everyone editing the "featured article" status ones, and leaving articles like Doopliss un-edited. The process would be similar to Featured Articles. We make a new page about the project, where we come together and list the articles we think are shortest, but have potential. Then, we might make a box on the main page to show what the article is. Each article will get one week on the main page, again, similar to Featured Articles. I know no-one may say yes cause I'm not someone who edits, but I think this would help users, ecspecially new users, who may be nervous making an article. This does not mean we will have stub articles, and I frankly think this project will prevent them. Proposer: Max2 Give it a Try
Nah
CommentsAre you thinking about something like MarioWiki: PAIR; or an Improvement Drive, where we pick one article a week or month, feature it somewhere and encourage all users to work on it? Or are you thinking something else? It would be nice to get a better sense of what you are thinking, cause I am all for helping users getting active and making improvements. -- Son of Suns Yeah, an Improvement Drive. That's exactly what I mean! Max2 (talk) Okay. I think you need to clarify some points. You should state above what this would entaiil exactly. For starters, you can answer these questions and put them in the proposal itself. Would users vote for an article to be improved (the one with the most votes gets featured)? Would the article be featured for a week, a month, etc.? And would the article be featured on the main page (like, This Week (or month)'s Collaboration is: so and so) with a link to that page? -- Son of Suns Ok. Is this clarified enough? Max2 (talk) I added descriptions of the aspects of the project, how to set it up, and why I think it would work.
Well, as most users say, the goal for every article would be to become an FA. i'm ont saying we only improve articles that can be FA articles, this is mainly just to cut back on stubs and short articles. Max2 (talk)
It seems to be sort of popular with the crowd. Except Plumber. Max2 (talk)
I wish more people knew about MarioWiki at MFGG, then we'd sure get a lot of new users! Though I hope kingmetroid doesn't come. File:MiniMario.pngMinimariolover10 TALK TO ME ABOUT MINIES!! While many simillar idea have all been tried (and failed miserably.), this one seem to actually have a decent following, why not give it a try? Glowsquid I guess I would. or let someone else take over it if they want. And, Xz, this wouldn't fail. We might not get every article up to like FA Status, but people will work on it. I also know me being in charge was likely a "no" factor, and I'm not saying to change your vote, only that the whole thing is actually well thought out and simple enough that anybody could join in on it. Max2 (talk) "Representing"KEEP AS IS 6-1 Many articles say they look similar or represent when just because they are the same representing species. For an example, Sidestepper's trivia says that they resemble Dovo, however they don't. Dovos do not like anything like a Sidestepper, and they probably weren't even remembering Sidesteppers when making the game. Sure, some represent other things, but not most of them. I'm saying to remove the trivia that says that they represent these that aren't truly representing. Proposper: Minimariolover10 Support
Oppose
CommentsYes, I know, but in some cases it isn't connecting. File:MiniMario.pngMinimariolover10 TALK TO ME ABOUT MINIES!!And about it not being worthy, I want other users to know SOME don't look similar so they could clear it if another doing this job is missing it.
Subsized CategorysKEEP AS IS 1-1 Every once in a while, a category that can have too few enteries shows up. Such as Category:X-Naut's Weapons (Though it's deleted), so I think that those should be prevented like stub articles. Proposer: Lario Prevent Them
Keep Them
CommentsI think we should just do a case by case basis, like new articles. We ask: "Is there enough for its inclusion?" There's no way to prevent someone from creating categories - we just have to decide if they are needed when it happens. I don't think this proposal can do much, so I am not voting either way. -- Son of Suns
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-I'll just descibe if I met/talked to them and how I helped them or how they helped me.
I think it's a great idea, and could work.
