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Change the way rule number 9 of the proposal system works
So, another proposal to remove this rule was made that was just now vetoed by an administrator.
The idea in this proposal is not to remove the rule but instead change the way it works to make it more fair and less objectionable.
So as of now, this rule is in effect:
- All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of all votes cast must be for a single option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
I think that the rule could use a few changes that could keep much of its original intent intact while making it more accurate towards what the majority of users want.
So I propose we replace that rule with this new rule:
- All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of all votes cast must be for a single option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options, with the change option with the lowest amount of votes and all votes put into it removed each time that happens, and the people who made those removed votes given the opportunity to make a new vote for one of the other options until there is only one change option and the do nothing option remaining when the rules for the proposal basically revert to what the rules for one change vs do nothing proposals are.
I think the changed rule would be better than both the original rule and just flat out deleting the rule for the following reasons:
- There isn't really that much of a difference in the end than if the original proposal was just between the two options that would have been the last two options in this case.
- This way, there won't be bogus scenarios where nothing is done because two different change options were both preferable than doing nothing to a majority of people but the majority couldn't agree on which one was the better change option.
- Since there is always a do nothing option left in the final two, there won't be any problems where two changes both with a different direction in mind that both have more support than doing nothing when both change sides would rather just do nothing than support the other change.
- Therefore, this only really has the potential to do anything when both changes are ideas for a similar direction that the same users would rather have either of the changes over having nothing done.
Proposer: Kart Player 2011 (talk)
Deadline: June 28, 2015, 23:59 GMT
Support
- Kart Player 2011 (talk) per proposal.
Oppose
- Ghost Jam (talk) Generally, rules function as intended. Proposed change reads like over complicating an already simple system to me. Additionally, per standard proposal rule 7: "No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old." A proposal about a change to the proposal system was closed as "no" less than two hours ago. Further, as precedent was set, I call for administrative veto.
- Bazooka Mario (talk) The problem with this proposal is that it operates on the assumption that once failed, a proposal cannot be redone or there cannot be a later, related discussion that may refine and better compromise to address the needs for disputing sides. Finally, the proposed rule is difficult to read and understand. Further comments are also included. See below section.
- Walkazo (talk) - Aping a ranked ballot system, as is being proposed here, is way to complicated and problematic. Also, it's frankly ridiculous that this proposal even exists in the first place, not only because it's unlawfully trying to overturn the "proposal rule changes can't be forced through by proposals" ruling on the last proposal, as Ghost Jam pointed out, but because it's blatantly ignoring that ruling. It wasn't "an" administrator who vetoed the last proposal: it was a decision made by multiple admins, and it'll happen to this one too, sooner than later. Maybe then the message will sink in. The system is fine: drop it and leave it alone already.
- Super Mario Bros. (talk) – Interestingly enough, the current system we have now is a modification of this proposal. I had actually suggested this exact idea in April 2012 and it failed, but Koopa K (talk) suggested a refined version of it in September 2012 based on Walkazo's suggestions. The current rule works, and requires those that want to make a change to compromise in order to provide a clear path of action.
Wait, in proposals with three choices or more, if their deadlines are extended, do you propose removing the option with the least amount of votes? That sounds so convoluted. Even the wording in that is hard to read. The bolded part is one sentence! Anyhow, if there are two change options clashing and rivaling each other in terms of votes, proceeding with one change or the other will displease a sizeable group and that's not democratic. Having the proposal fail after breaking through several extended deadlines definitely means "no consensus has been reached, so no changes will be made". It's a failsafe measure at this point, and it gives the opportunity for further discussion and refining the proposal further. Not to mention, it wears on people's patience to see a proposal get extended, like, three times, so casting it off is good, elaborated previously.
In super drawn-out proposals, it's safer to kill them eventually than to take questionable and controversial action even if the outcome is dead tied. It's the reason FAs have a time limit, too.  It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 14:17, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
@Ghost Jam: I tried my best to remove the objectionable pieces of the other proposal that caused it to be vetoed and take into consideration things said by Walkazo in my discussion with her in the other proposal to make it not fall into any objections that she made there.
@Bazooka Mario, I specifically said in the proposal that the do nothing option would stay to the final two no matter what and before then, only options suggesting change could be removed so if there is a case of two change options clashing and rivaling each other in terms of votes, and people voting for one of the changes would rather have nothing done, they will always have the chance to just move their votes towards doing nothing.
- Kart Player 2011 (talk)
@Walkazo, just veto it now then in this case to get it over with. I tried my best to fix the problems that got the other proposal vetoed but I guess in this case, I didn't do enough so I guess you should just veto this proposal now. I'll talk about it more with you in user talk page if I feel the need to. I'm sorry for my mistake. - Kart Player 2011 (talk)
- No, I didn't mean that. During a hotly contested proposal, there has to be a time limit for how long a proposal runs, and once that time limit is exceeded, it is canceled, period. The proposal is done, but the discussion can continue since the canceling suggests more discussion needs to be made before putting it "to the floor". People that vote for change don't like to have nothing done, but "do nothing" is the least of the evils when two votes are hotly contested and the time limit is reached. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 14:51, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
- @Kart Player 2011: Feel free to cancel it yourself, if you now understand that it was an ill-advised move. Just be sure to archive it properly, rather than deleting it outright. - Walkazo (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
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