MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/14

Any proposal decided and past is archived here. Use the scroll box to see votes and comments. This page is protected to maintain the discussion as was. Please add archived proposals to the bottom of the page. Re-Split Orange Yoshi SPLIT 7-0 I think it wasn't a good idea to merge Brown Yoshi to Orange Yoshi. It only was merged because of that Brown Yoshi was replaced by Orange Yoshi. Worst is, there first stand, after the merge, that Brown WAS Orange. But even thought it is in the same color group, yellow, it can still be seen that the two colors are different to each other. Orange is a mix of yellow and red, brown is much darker and a bit more yellow (meaning you can't consider brown as orange, only because it looks like each other!). If you think to keep merge, because of too less text, then add more info! That's why I think we must re-split Orange Yoshi to Orange Yoshi and Brown Yoshi. Proposer: Arend (talk) Deadline: 9 May, 2009, 20:00 Re-Split Arend (talk) Per myself Super Mario Bros. (talk) I would have to agree with Arend. Even though they replaced Brown Yoshi with Orange Yoshi, they are still different Yoshi types. Zafum (talk) - Per Arend. Fly Guy 2 (talk) - per Arend Walkazo (talk) - Per all. Randoman123456789 (talk) - They are two slightly different species of Yoshi, and therefore must be split into two articles. Per all. Per all -Canama Keep Merge Comments Revive MarioWiki:Pipe Plaza REVIVE 8-0 I know many of you will say "What for? We have the Talk:Main Page" but i'll tell you what, that talk is that, a simple talk page, all unorganized. On the other hand, the Pipe Plaza provides good info, is neat and organized. If this proposal succeeds, we would post Mario related things in the Pipe Plaza talk and Technical issues in Talk:Main Page. Also, we would need a team of loyal, active and trustworthy users to keep the page nice, current and organized. Proposer: Tucayo (talk) Deadline: Wednesday, May 13th, 17:00 Bring it back from the world of dead Tucayo (talk) - Per me Castle Toad (talk) - Per you (i can be from the loyal-active ones!) yes! Dark boo (talk)- Makes since, and I'll gladdley help with the page Nerdy Guy (talk) - Yeah, we just have to change the edit permission to Patrollers and others and it'll be updated alot! Super Mario Bros. (talk) Per all and Tucayo, his idea does make a lot of sense, I think that it would be great if the PipePlaza was brought back from the dead. JerseyMarioFreak (talk)Per all MC Hammer Bro. (talk)-That is a great idea. It will be great for orginizing information and allow easier access to helping other user with technical issues. I'd love to help in its resurection. Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per Tucayo. I'll help out whenever I can, too. Let it rest in peace for the eternity Comments @NG - You can't change the editing permission for one specific locked page for patrollers, its impossible with MediaWiki software. You can however, install an extension that would lock it to all users who don't have the password. But I think an extra extension for one page would take to much time and work. If we were to do this, I think we should just lock it to registered users. --Yoshario (talk) We need to tell sysops about this,either to unprotect it,or to take care of it by thmselves, or just to allow patrollers to edit itTucayo (talk) We could either a) Allow only Sysops to edit it, or b) block all users who haven't been here for a month. Stooben Rooben (talk) Mario Award Voting on Main Page VOTING ON MAIN PAGE 9-0 I've already cleared this mostly with Steve, but I want to make sure there is a majority agreement on this – Remember when we only had 62 voters for Mario Awards I? 2007, yeah. N00bsday...then that turned to 93 in 2008, nice improvement. But my goodness, 2000 votes a week on the poll...and 140 this year if the 50% increase trend continues....no way I'm settling for that, man! :P Overall provisions of this proposal: Replace the Weekly Poll from June 14 (Monday) to July 14 (Tuesday). This kinda would split a poll in half starting on Friday, but maybe on June 11 we could draw the usual poll-voting crowd in with a promise for a lot of polls (40: 30 traditional + 10 anti, hopefully) on Friday and kinda just starve it off from 7/14-17. Make it explicit in the Poll Selection page that no future question may copy a Mario Award. To distinguish, we aim to be as general as we can, while many of the questions on polls are hypothetical for the future or specific by game. We can keep the Mario Awards special annually. I would be willing to compromise if this is too harsh, by keeping away from Mario Award type poll questions only when it's coming up, and letting it be allowed in the winter months. Please comment on this and I'll definitely respond. Userpedia Awards aren't exactly something that visitors will recognize. But if the iFrame extension is installed, I will gladly come on and help put on those awards on their Main Page as well, which may produce more voters than the 56 last year. I will take care of any and all costs necessary to get polls that will suit the needs for the Mario Awards (hiding results, allowing write-ins, deleting duplicate votes / all by an IP). Google Forms is an excellent free service that is my backup choice right now, but two polls have suffered from duplicate voting (Funky Kong as Favorite Kong comes to mind) and that is an absolute no here...but again, I'll take care of all that, please let it not factor into your votes. While I could put all the new polls on MarioWiki:Anniversary and link it in the announcement line...the polls being right there for everyone on the most hit page of the wiki by far will be very noticeable and should be a significant increase in voters. Proposer: (who else) Wayoshi (talk) Deadline: 17:00, 14 May Let's Get Thousands of Voters Wayoshi (talk) – This will make the awards all the more special with more widespread opinion. Gotta take advantage of our gigantic traffic. Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per Wayoshi. This sounds like an absolutely wonderful way to make the Awards thrive. I'll talk to Neurario about getting the iFrame extension installed. Xpike (talk) – Even though I didn't understood a thing, I prefer this than nagging. Zafum (talk) - Per Wayoshi. This would really help the Mario Awards. Tucayo (talk) - Per Wayo, nice idea. The same as XP said Super Mario Bros. (talk) Per Wayoshi and XP. Neurario (talk) Per all, a great idea to utilize traffic from both our sites. Stoob, I'll get in touch. Yoshario (talk) Per Wayo and XP Ralphfan (talk) - Best...idea...ever! Keep it to MarioWiki:Anniversary Comments Wayo: what will we do with the "other" votes. they cant be forgotten Tucayo (talk) No Sigs on Featured Images Page DO NOT ALLOW SIGS ON FEATURED IMAGES PAGE 4-0 Though this may seem minor now, I have seen one or two sigs that have altered vote counts on that page, and if we allow sigs on this page, eventually as the amount of images on the page grows, more and more sigs will mess up vote counts. Proposer: Zafum (talk) Deadline: May 14, 2009, 17:00 No Sigs Castle Toad (talk) - i find Sigs a bit unformal to be used in there. Tucayo (talk) i wasnt planning to support it, but as SMB made an opposing proposal, i did. Zafum, you forgot to support it Walkazo (talk) - Per all; plus sigs make voting pages impossible to load for old computers. They should be banned from all three Feature-nomination pages: that way the rules for FI (Images), FA (Articles) and FL (Lists) will all be consistant. Zafum (talk) - Oops, forgot to support my own proposal. Keep Sigs Comments You dont have to make a proposal about this Tucayo (talk) See my proposal below. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Change "No Signature" Policies NO CHANGES 1-8 Before you vote against this rule, listen to this for one second. I think that we should reverse, well, partially reverse, the rule that eliminates signatures on voting pages. I think that the rule should be changed to "no signatures that ruin vote counts". For example, if you have seen my signature or Walkazo's signature, you will see that it would probably not ruin vote counts. Here are some ideas for my proposed rule: Signatures that do not ruin vote counts can be used. No images can be used in the signatures. If a signature does ruin vote counts, the signature will be changed to the {{User|Username Here}} format. Users can make a second signature page that they could use specifically for proposals and other voting pages if their signature does not meet these requirements, use their regular signature if it does meet the requirements, or use the {{User|Username Here}} format. Proposer: Super Mario Bros. (talk) Deadline: Sunday, 17 May 2009, 15:00 Support Super Mario Bros. (talk) Per me. Oppose Tucayo (talk) - NO, Users wont respect if their sig ruins vote counts or not, neither they will know if it ruins it, so i say NO. Walkazo (talk) - It's too complicated; it's better to just be straightforward: all or nothing. (Personally, I'd like to see all main community pages sig-less, but I'm a kill-joy on an eleven-year-old computer, so don't mind me...) Luigifreak (talk) It will be hard to tell if a sig ruins it unless they post, and by the time we realize it, it will be hard to clean up. also per walkazo, its too complicated. Zafum (talk)- I have answers to all your ideas:1.Signatures, wether they change vote counts or not are just informal.2.So many different people use pics on their sigs, that removing pics on them would be crazy. Anyway, my sig is completely based on images.3.why should you delete a user's vote because his sig differs from other user's sigs?Per All Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per Walkazo. Leirin (talk) - Per all. Luigifan123 (talk) - Per all. Lu-igi board per all Comments I changed the elimination of votes part, which the replacement being written in bold. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Movie Section NO "MOVIES" SECTION 1-10 As you may already know, over at Userpedia, they have some sections where you can create your own stories and such. But there's one thing they don't have- A movies section. Here at Super Mario Wiki, we could have a "Movies" section, where users can freely get others to sign up with their sprites and partake in a comic-like movie, that would then be put on YouTube, in Parts, if wanted. I've put an example over on my UserPage, and if anybody wants to take part in that movie, it will be put up as an option if we do get a "Movies" section. I believe this to be a great way for Users to communicate and share ideas! Proposer: Hyper Guy (talk) Deadline: May 23, 2009, 20:00 Support Hyper Guy (talk) (creator) Oppose StarYoshi1 (talk) - No. Just no. Super Mario Wiki is a place for factual things about the Mario series, not fan-art/fictions/movies. This is why Userpedia was created. Userpedia is the place to put these things, not at SMW. Super Mario Bros. (talk) I would have to agree with StarYoshi1, this is a wiki for information. Also, see my comment below. Yoshario (talk) Per StarYoshi1. This is going to distract people from editing the wiki. per staryoshi Lu-igi board Walkazo (talk) - Per StarYoshi1. JerseyMarioFreak (talk) - NO WAY. Per StarYoshi. 4DJONG-No, first they already have one, plus this is not the Unmario wiki this is the SMW so, basically per StarYoshi. Alan Warp Zone (talk) No that´s a bad idea and it will give the Wiki a bad or different maning of what it is. Girrrtacos (talk) Per StarYoshi1 and Super Mario Bros. Try the 'Shroom or Userpedia[1]. Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per StarYoshi1. Comments Hyper Guy, here is a suggestion, try asking this guy if you could have this on the 'Shroom. Super Mario Bros. (talk) You can sign up in the Fun Stuff page if you like Tucayo (talk) Add it on The 'Shroom, but not any where else. K?4DJONG Are you allowed to put the [[User:4DJONG|4DJONG]] code in your comment, 4DJONG? Super Mario Bros. (talk) Everyone should sign with {{User|Username}}, but we won't remove [[User:Username|Username]], as that doesn't mess with people's computers, like some personalized sigs do. However, seeing as 4DJONG's signature included a timestamp, that implies he signed with ~~~~, which we ask people to not do. Again, it's mainly to prevent sigs containing images and backgrounds from clogging-up the page, but it would look better if everyone simply signed the same way. - Walkazo (talk) Yes, he is, he just can't use {{user:4DJONG/sig}}, or ~~~ if he has a custom sig. Yoshario (talk) MrV: You dont know what were talking about, right? Tucayo (talk) No Offensive Material DON'T CREATE OFFENSIVE MATERIAL RULE 1-9 As a wiki user, I have rarely seen it, and I do not know if there is an already exising rule for this, but I think we should make a new rule for Offensive Material. If a proposal has material deemed offensive by at least three active users, the part that includes the offensive material must be deleted. If it is added again by the proposer, the proposal itself will be deleted. If you have any suggestions for this proposal, please put them in the comments section. Proposer: Super Mario Bros. (talk) Deadline: 17:00, Monday, 25 May 2009 Create New Rule Super Mario Bros. (talk) Per my reasons above. Leave As Is Ghost Jam (talk) - I don't think we really need a rule for this as it's more of a matter of common sense. In general, Sysops will delete obviously offensive material. Girrrtacos (talk) Per Ghost Jam- leave it to the Sysops. Time Q (talk): Per Ghpost Jam. Why make a rule for everything? The list of rules on the proposal page is way too long already, anyway. Stooben Rooben (talk) Per that ghosty thing up there. Some people could also take offense to certain things, while other don't. (Take the Mario Hentai debate a few months back for example. Many hardcore MarioWikians wanted to add information on it as long as it was official; others didn't want it because it would 'taint' the community.) Per Stooben Rooben. Hehehe. Hentai. Perfect example. Hyper Guy (talk) Walkazo (talk) - Per all. Yoshario (talk) - Per GJ & Stooby Tucayo (talk) - Per everybody, that sounded weird, Per all. Alan Warp Zone (talk) - Yes the patroller r for that, but why not we have a Warn button on some places like forums it works... Comments Split Proposals Page and Rules NO SPLIT 2-5 I was looking at one of the comments on one of my proposals, and I got to thinking. Why do we have rules in the How To section? I think we should make a new article (well, I will make an article) that contains some of the rules for the proposals page. It would take a lot out of the How To section and would be easier to add rules without it making the main proposals page too long. Proposer: Super Mario Bros. (talk) Deadline: Tuesday, 26 May 2009, 17:00 Support Super Mario Bros. (talk) Per reasons above Alan Warp Zone (talk) Also, the rules r different and it may be on a Navigation page. Oppose Walkazo (talk) - No one will read the rules if they're on a separate page. There are too many policy pages scattered about the Wiki as it is, and the last thing we want to do is make more of them. Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per Walkazo. If we really want people to follow the rules, we want them to stick out on the Proposals page. Time Q (talk): Per Walkazo and Stooben. Tucayo (talk) - Per all, its easier to have em in just one page Mr.C (talk) - Per Walkazo, and also, keeping them here would save space. Comments If we should not split the pages, then could we at least separate it from the How To section and make it into its own section? If we could do that, then I will delete this proposal. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Eliminate Mainstream Signatures ALLOW SIGNATURES 3-5 I was listening to what one of the fellow wiki members have said, and I actually think my proposal about allowing certain signatures was dumb. I myself own an eleven year old computer as well. So, I am going to say what this proposal is about now. If this proposal passes, signatures will be banned from MarioWiki and Help talk pages as well as other pages that say that they are, but will be allowed on article talk pages, user pages, and user talk pages. I think that it slows down older computers and it looks more professional with the {{User|Username Here}} format on the mainstream wiki. Proposer: Super Mario Bros. (talk), with ideas from Walkazo (talk) Deadline: Tuesday, 26 May 2009, 17:00 Support Super Mario Bros. (talk) Per reasons above. Alan Warp Zone (talk) I have a good computer, but I think so, cause old computers take time to load. Blitzwing (talk) Signatures look silly on public pages, and they can cause coding problem (Infact, I remember when a signature made it completely impossible to access a page.) Oppose KPH2293 (talk)—I understand banning them from organized voting pages, but this is too extreme. Why don't we just ban signatures that cause technical issues? Not all of them are disruptive. Tucayo (talk) - Oppose, oppose, OPPOSE. Blitz:You can just revert that edit. TimeQ: Theyre banned from voting pages, and that only really leaves us talks pages. Stooby: Not all sigs cause problems, so i dont see why the sigs of users who are fine must be deleted from other pages. SMB: If you have an old computer, just mark on your browser something to not show the images Nerdy Guy (talk) - Per KPH and Tucayo, plus the following: 1) Having all signtures look the same makes it hard to keep track of who's talking. 2) If the things listed in the perposal happen, we would look boring and dull to anyperson looking at talk pages to see what we think. 3) We can just give a reminder and/or a note to anyone whose sig is causing problems. Besides those reasons, there are other reasons why I think this proposal shouldn't pass; the perposal is a little too extreme, no offense. Stooben Rooben (talk) - KPH convinced me. Having no sigs on this page is understandable; but let's not go for overkill. Leirin (talk) - Per all. Comments I don't really care either way, but let's assume this passes. In that case, that template should really be moved to {{sig}} to avoid accidental userpage transclusions. e.g. "{{user:twentytwofiftyseven}}", instead of "{{user|twentytwofiftyseven}}" Twentytwofiftyseven (talk) KPH: That's a good idea. However, certain sigs cause certain problems on different computers. One of my older sigs that had a blue background messed up talk pages for some users, (Pokemon DP, Walkazo, Stumpers, and a few others), while it cause no problems for others. It'd be kind of difficult to narrow down what does and what doesn't cause technical problems, unfortunately. - Stooben Rooben (talk) Tucayo: You misunderstood me. I know that not all sigs cause problems, but some do for certain computers. (Example: Super-Yoshi's signature causes the background of a talk page to turn lightgray on my computer, while on others, I'm sure it's fine. So it's hard to target which sigs are "problem-causers", for lack of a better term. - Stooben Rooben (talk) By "not all of them are disruptive", I was mainly referring to signatures that are no more problematic than {{user}}, like "KPH2293 (T/C)". Most technical issues are caused by colors/images, and a signature like this uses neither of those. —KPH2293 (talk) Then we can just edit sigs taht affect Tucayo (talk) Why edit those sigs? I don't even think it is possible, users are not allowed to edit other people's user space. If they were, i Limiting sigs to User space does seem a tad extreme. Maybe they should just be banned from MarioWiki and Help talk pages, but allowed on article talk pages. - Walkazo (talk) Check the proposal. Is it ok? Super Mario Bros. (talk) Honestly, I wouldn't mind this proposal as much if it didn't ban anything besides {{user}}. Look at the example I posted in my previous comment - how is that anymore disruptive than the template? Furthermore, why ban them from only MarioWiki/help pages? How would they would be any more problematic there than they would be on a mainspace talk page? —KPH2293 (talk) Well, are you suggesting that we delete them from the mainspace? Also, Tucayo, why edit those sigs? I don't even think it is possible, users are not allowed to edit other people's user space. If they were, I don't think that would be right. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Sorry, I should have been more specific. What I mean is, I believe it should be all or nothing. There is little difference between mainspace and MarioWiki talk. Why ban them from one and not the other? Leaving user talk alone makes sense, since what's disruptive on those pages is really up to whoever owns the userspace. Also, you are correct; users do not have the technical power to edit others' pages. Only sysops have that function. —KPH2293 (talk) Mainspace talk pages rarely gather enough comments to be problematic (and the ones that do are generally for the big pages like Bowser, which old computers can't handle anyway), whereas things like MarioWiki talk:FAQ can become monstrous. Users with old computers can always avoid the big pages (I do), but viewing something like the Community Portal is essential if you wanna stay in the loop. Another reason to not ban custom sigs on mainspace talk pages is the fact that it'll be an obscene amount of work to go around to every single talk page and switch the sigs for {{user}}s, which we'd have to do to be consistent and to insure users won't get confused about how they're supposed to sign new comments from now on. There are far less Help/MarioWiki talk pages that would need this treatment, so while it is still not a savory task, it is doable. Also, timestamps are really handy on mainspace talks pages (old queries may have been answered over time on the page, but just not on the talk) and most people won't think to add ~~~~~ after {{User|name}}, whereas automatically signing with ~~~~ is much more straightforward. Losing timestamps from Help/MarioWiki talk pages is disadvantageous too, and when you take into account the fact that most of the Help/MarioWiki talk pages are short (like the mainspace talks) and don't pose problems, this proposal starts to look like overkill again. Perhaps more specific proposals could be made in the future (assuming this one fails) to target specific problem pages, like the aforementioned FAQ and Main Talk pages. However, in the end, something needs to be done. I don't mind waiting five minutes to see the Main talk page (when it hasn't been archived in a while), but it just doesn't seem fair that those of us with old technology get penalized by something as frivolous as signatures. - Walkazo (talk) The length that a talk page reaches depends on the significance of the subject, not the namespace. Not every MarioWiki page will become horrendously large, and not every mainspace page will stay at a couple of sections. Besides, not all signatures cause technical problems; we could always just fix/ban the ones that do. —KPH2293 (talk) That's why I haven't voted: I don't like signatures clogging up my computer, but I also think this proposal is a little excessive, and that sig usage should be banned on a case-by-case basis instead (like for this page and the poll pages). - Walkazo (talk) Add pronunciations I think that it would help the wiki if we added pronunciations. This would allow users to know how to say hard names to say. The pronunciation would not have to be in the title it could be the first time the name is said in the article. If a article started like this, Mario is, we would change it to, Mario (Mar-e-o) is, or we could change it to Mario pronouced Mar-e-o is. I still don't know how to pronouce Cackaletta. This would also help make the wiki look more offical, after all the Mariowiki baseicley is a dictionary for all things Mario. Proposer: Dark boo (talk) Deadline: May 28, 17:00 EDT Support Tucayo (talk) This looks good, being like Mario (Mar-e-o Japanese: マリオ; originally Jumpman) is the main character of the Super Mario series, BTW its pronunciation Booman (talk) Per Tucayo Oppose Walkazo (talk) - See comment below. Twentytwofiftyseven (talk) - Per Walkazo. Also, to do such a thing, we'd need an unambiguous way of representing sounds. "Mar-e-o" is not acceptable because English vowels can be pronounced in a number of ways. Castle Toad (talk) - Per Walkazo and Twentytwofiftyseven. Also, even if we could add the pronunciation, it should be in all available languages, because of things like this... Cackletta is not her only name (Bruja Jiji in Spanish is said...) get it? Alan Warp Zone (talk) - There are somethins that one pronunces in a way and others in diferent ways too dificult... Grandy02 (talk) - There isn't much of voice acting in the games, therefore most pronunciations would be unofficial. Mr.C (talk) - Per all. Leirin (talk) - Per Walkazo. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Per Walkazo and her Walkazo-ness. Comments Thanks Tucayo Dark boo (talk) It sounds good in theory, but I don't think it'd actually work. For one thing, we can't be sure of some pronunciations; see Talk:Dimentio for one example: we're pretty sure it's "Dime-en-tee-o", but there is some doubt. Another example is the X-Nauts: it's supposedly pronounced "cross-not", but then you have statements like "an X-Yux" implying it's been read as "ex-yux", not "cross-yux" on at least one in-game occasion. Other names aren't offered pronunciations at all, like Cackletta - I'd guess it's "Cak-let-ah", but that's an assumption, not a fact; and seeing a speculation's not allowed on mainspace, I couldn't write that down in good faith. The pronunciation of X-Nauts and their affiliates is significant and is already noted on their articles, but otherwise, adding pronunciations to some articles but leaving unverifiable ones would just look inconsistent. - Walkazo (talk) We could put possible pronunciation on unsure ones, and for the actually pronunciation for those we could just put the most common one or the most likley one, or we could always put more then one pronunciation Dark boo (talk) 2257: Yeah, the IPA is a good way of putting pronunciations (and "informal" spellings such as "Mar-e-o" could be put additionally). I could also help with that. But I don't think we need a proposal for it. Where the pronunciation appears to be interesting, we can put it. (Only problem about IPA is, that some of the symbols don't seem to be displayed correctly - see this article and its talk). Time Q (talk) I think that even if this proposal fails, we should be allowed to add pronunciations to articles about subjects whose pronunciations are officially confirmed and not self-explaining. This could be helpful for non-English names as well. I am not voting because I don't think I agree with either option. Time Q (talk) Allow grammar edits of other users on talk pages DON'T ALLOW GRAMMAR EDITS OF OTHER PEOPLE'S COMMENTS 1-13 I recently learned of a rule that says that users are not allowed to edit other users' comments on talk pages. That includes their own talk page. I prefer to use proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation and think that it is a great idea to allow users to edit other users' comments for grammar, spelling, and punctuation purposes. Proposer: Ralphfan (talk) Deadline: Friday, 29 May 2009, 20:00 Allow Ralphfan (talk) - I want my talk page to look professional; per above! Don't Allow Yoshario (talk) - Doing this is sort of "censoring" other user's comments. Other user's comments should not be edited by another user. KPH2293 (talk)—If you want to use proper grammar, then do so. But that does not give you the right to change others' comments just because you think their grammar is unprofessional. Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per all. Time Q (talk): Per all. Editing other people's comments means editing their writing style. What if they have a very own way of spelling certain words or putting punctuation marks? We really shouldn't manipulate it. Tucayo (talk) - Per TimeQ, that was exactly what i was going to say 4DJONG -First I don't want people editing other people's user pages it's not fair, plus I really think it's rude!!!! Walkazo (talk) - Per all. Chantelle on Wii Fat (talk) - This is totally against Wikipedia's policies and therefore it's innapropriate for a Wiki. Supermario6449 (talk) - This rule could get out of hand,and users would be changing what other users say.Everyone has there own way of opions and writing,and we don't need anyone changing it. Mr.C (talk) - Per all. per all. the discussions don't need 2 be formal, after all wikiing is only a bit of fun! Lu-igi board 07:41, 26 May 2009 (EDT) Leirin (talk) - Per all. It's the user's own writing style, which may have flaws or other things to give it characterization/style. The wiki sounds all-around formal and clean, but something like talk pages don't really need formal speech to give it a professional look. Mario & Luigi I do understand your point Ralphan, but that would violate a personal right as a user on this wiki. Comments The content isn't changed; it will look more professional. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ralphfan (talk). I would just like to note that this rule is no longer unwritten. It was recently added after an administrative discussion. —KPH2293 (talk) I really would like to support this, but there's a big, big problem... This is THE INTERNET. The bane of all grammar and spelling >_>. Dom (talk) Make Rule for Deletion of Unlicensed Images NO SUCH RULE 1-6 Since the is no rule set in stone for the deletion of Unlicensed images, I am proposing that we delete all week-old unlicensed images. This policy will enforce the licensing of images, therefore there will be no copyright issues. Proposer: Yoshario (talk) Deadline: June 1, 2009, 17:00 Support Yoshario (talk) Per above Oppose Walkazo (talk) - If an image is unlicensed, then license it (and maybe remind the uploader to license their images in the future). Deleting useful images with fixable licensing problems is more destructive than productive. There are licenses for everything, so finding one that works shouldn't be a problem. per walkazo Lu-igi board 07:43, 26 May 2009 (EDT) Mario & Luigi Per Walkazo and her Walkazo-ness Alan Warp Zone (talk) Don´t forget that we will be eliminating some pictures of areas and it will be to look it´s pages less atractive and having less info... Stooben Rooben (talk) -- Per Walkazo. Superstar Daisy (talk) There's this handy dandy thing called the "edit" button, so, per Wazzy (Walkazo). Comments @Walkazo There isn't a license for everything. Like derivative works of copyrighted Mario images like user comics and sprite recolors. And there can't be a license for those images because its not covered under fair use. Yoshario (talk) As i told Yoshario in chat, maybe (if its possible),to make choosing a license obligatory to upload an image, and maybe adding an "Other" option Tucayo (talk) Yoshario: wouldn't the Attribution ShareAlike license work? - Walkazo (talk) It doesn't matter, it still wouldn't be covered under fair use. Yoshario (talk) If you go to Special:Upload and look on the "choose a license" bar, it's one of the "free licenses" at the bottom. It may not be "fair use", but it must be a valid license or we wouldn't be given the opportunity to select it when uploading images. Reading the description (on the webside the template links to), it sounds like it's perfect for how Users recolour sprites for user comics. - Walkazo (talk) But wouldn't that only work if Nintendo releases their work under the Creative Commons ShareAlike license? Yoshario (talk) Or...you could just make the licensing templates that we're missing. I think I've made one or two. Stooben Rooben (talk) Babies NO SPLIT 5-10 Okay, so I was going through the Wiki, and I noticed that it said Baby Mario and Baby Luigi first appeared in The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3. That’s false! They first appeared in Yoshi’s Island! A similar situation goes for babies Peach, Daisy and Bowser! I say we split the pages into Baby Mario and Baby Mario (SMB3 Cartoon), Baby Luigi and Baby Luigi (SMB3 Cartoon), Baby Peach and Baby Peach (SMBSS), Baby Daisy and Baby Daisy (movie), and Baby Bowser and Baby Bowser (cartoons). I hope that will clear things up. Proposer: Rabidchomp (talk) Deadline: June 7, 2009, 15:00 Support Rabidchomp (talk) Per above. FourPaperHeroes (talk) Per above. Lu-igi board per above Chamchir9482 (talk) because the baby mario in toddler terrors of time travel isn't really a baby mario but one reduced in size and many features reduced. He's still the same plumber. RymanX (talk) The babies in the cartoons/movies are completely different characters than those in the games, and thus deserve their own articles to avoid confusion. Oppose Coincollector (talk) I think is not necessary. According to the Mariowiki guidelines, we make the history (biography) of the character starting in his or her very first appeareance (in this case, SMB3 cartoon was in 1990, where the baby characters appeared first, and Yoshi's Island was in 1995, where they appeared later). Luigifreak (talk) Per coincollecter. We wouldn't split up Mario into two articles, so these characters aren't really different. Yoshario (talk) Per Coincollector. Mario & Luigi Per Coincollector and my reasons below. Walkazo (talk) - Per Coincollector. Mr.C (talk) - Per CoinCollector. Cobold (talk) - I don't see this clearing anything up. It just creates additional pages where I see no need for them. What's the difference between a baby appearing in a cartoon and a baby appearing in a game? It's just overcomplicating things. Time Q (talk): Per Coincollector. Rabidchomp, you don't even state why you think that the babies' first appearance was in YI rather than in the SMB3 cartoon. How can we support your idea then? Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per Coincollector. GreenKoopa (talk) - If we made seperate articles for SMB3 Baby Mario and Luigi, we'd have to do the same for all the other characters that are substantially different in the cartoons. So, this puts us with not only Baby Mario/Luigi (SMB3 cartoon) but many, many other articles, including Mario/Luigi (SMB cartoons) and Live Action Mario/Luigi (SMB cartoons). And that's just focusing on the bros! Theres also Yoshi(who spoke in a broken sort of english in the cartoon, but speaks in syllables from his name in the games) and the Koopalings (all have different names and some have certain traits changed)! Also, I agree with Coincollector besides. Comments Erm... i'm 99% sure that the adventures of super maio bros 3 (which was a cartoon) was released long before Yoshis island, and therefore the babies were seen in the cartoon first. That being said, I don't quite understand this proposal. What is your reasoning behind splitting the pages? If it's just that you think that they were seen in Yoshis island first, than thats not a valid reason. The babies in smb3 are really the same as their yoshis island counterparts. Luigifreak (talk) No, they're not! They are two totally different media (i.e. video games, cartoons, etc.), so I consider them different characters. Rabidchomp (talk) It does not matter whether they are different media, this is the Super Mario Wiki, not the Super Mario Wiki of Video Games and Not Other Media. In example, if regular Mario (not the baby characters that were referred to in the above proposal) appears in the video game and the cartoon, does that justify splitting that article because they are in different media? I personally don't think so. And it is true that Baby Mario first appeared in the Adventures of SMB3 and then Yoshi's Island. It doesn't matter whther their appearances were completely different, they still have the same concept of a character: a baby version of Mario (and this applies to all other baby characters). Mario & Luigi Oops, I didn't see that luigifreak had already used the Mario example... Well, it is still a good example to make, anyway. Mario & Luigi (talk) Regardless of what the wiki is, these are different people, and thus deserve different articles. If Baby Mario (games) and baby Mario (cartoon)get the same article, then I don't see why Poochy and Poochie deserve sepetate articles, the differences are the same. RymanX (talk) If RabidChomp was Steve, I'd see this happening. Mr.C Who's Steve? -Rabidchomp Porplemontage, the site owner. —KPH2293 (talk) Couldn't we possibly edit the template to have both "First game appearance" and "First television appearance"? - Pokemega32 Well, we could, but I don't really see a reason why we should. Time Q (talk) In addition to what Time Q said, I think it would be pretty unorganized to do that for a template. Perhaps we could have 2 separate templates, one for first game appearance and another for first television appearance? I personally think it is more organized than having one template with both those things. Super Mario Bros. (talk) But on second thought, which template are we talking about? If you are talking about the template at the beginning of each page, then exclude my idea. If we are talking about a template that goes on the bottom of the page, then consider my idea. Super Mario Bros. (talk) I Mario Freak say... WHAT ABOUT BABY YOSHI! Remove Welcoming Committee KEEP WELCOMING MESSAGES 1-13 After all, it hasn't gotten that far. I think the committee is redundant because it is basically a replica of the help page. It will help save space on talk pages, it will allow those on the committee to occupy their time with something else on the wiki, and it still provides help for new users! If anybody wants to greet a new user, that would be up to them. If any users want to greet the new users, it doesn't have to be a drawn out thing to take up time. Proposer: Super Mario Bros. (talk) Deadline: Sunday, 14 June 2009, 15:00 Support Timmy Tim (talk) - Sounds like a good idea to me. Oppose Yoshario (talk) - I don't think it would do anything to add it on the sidebar, its not something you visit anyway, its something you put on someone's talkpage. Time Q (talk): Per Yoshario and Xzelion's comment. Firstly, the template does no harm. Secondly, nobody will click on a link on the sidebar to be welcomed. Thirdly, if you suggest to welcome users without that template, that's even more time-consuming and reduces your argument to absurdity. I don't really have an opinion about the committee itself, though. It might be removed, since anyone can welcome a user, and the committee appears to be rather inactive. Luigifreak (talk) Per all, and, even though I did not receive a message, I wish I had, because I looked at that template a lot. It's much simpler to have it on your talk, and it doesn't take a lot of space, what space it does take is made up by it's usefullness. In addition, most messages say that you can delete it if you wan't, so taking up space is no issue. Finally, it really doesn't take much time to welcome someone, as it shows up in recent changes when a new user is created. Mr.C (talk) - Per all. Xzelion (talk) - Per all Luigi 128 (talk) - Per all, and don't you tink that if a user don't want to have the Tempate he/she can easly can erase it MC Hammer Bro. (talk)-Per Luigifreak and Luigi 128. It's quick, easy, makes users feel welcome and can be easily removed once a user gains enough experience. Walkazo (talk) - Per all: the welcome template is handy (I still use the one I was given), and putting something on the sidebar instead would be silly. But as Time Q said, the Committee is a little redundant (and it might even dissuade users who aren't part of the committee from welcoming people), and I'd support removing it. P. Trainer (talk) - Per all. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Well, seeing as the Committee seems to already be gone, I'm opposing the idea of deleting the template. I meant to edit that out, but now it's too late. But I'm requesting that everybody looks at Tucayo's comment down there. I agree with him. Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per all. The committee is entirely pointless since any user can welcome one another. No reason to restrict that ability to just one small group of people. Grapes (talk) Mainly, Per All. Dom (talk) - This proposal could be renamed "Make Wiki Less Friendly and More Confusing for New Users". That sums up what it's about. Per all. Comments In that case, forget the link, perhaps we just remove it? I mean, we already have a help page. The Welcoming Committee template is basically this with a customized comment. I don't completely see the need (besides them giving you a warm greeting, but that can just be done on the talk page without the whole template. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Instead of having to navigate into the helps page, it's laid conveniently onto your talk page for easy access. Besides, does the template really do alot of harm? Xzelion (talk) It's not the template completely. It's that we have a help page with almost the same information, why don't the new users just go around the wiki for a little bit? Unless they are trolls or complete n00bs, they wouldn't screw up the wiki. If they need help, they should use the sidebar that is conveniently placed into the site. It is everywhere they go, and they don't have to waste time going to their talk page. Super Mario Bros. (talk) And I reworded the proposal. To anybody who cares. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Honestly, I was a total noob when I first started out, I made plenty of mistakes, I never got the welcome template (I did get a custom welcome by Plumber though), but thinking back on it, alot of my mistakes could have been avoided if I had gotten the welcome template,. Like I've said before, it's completely harmless, if an user wants it gone, they can go ahead and remove, we even have a note in the message. Besides, I've always seen that user-customized welcome templates gives an unique feeling. You're not just some random guest who gets the typical welcome message, but you get one customized & personalized from an experiences user, who also gives them advice on Wiki-things. And, even if this proposal goes through, you say people can still give them a "warm greeting", without the whole template. Like it or not, people are still gonna make subpages for their greetings, it's easier than typing out the whole message over & over. And on the "waste time going to talk page" comment, it's just as easy to access the sidebar as it is to access their own talk page. Xzelion (talk) Where is the committee currently located? It's no longer on the Wiki Maintenance page, I can't find it. - Cobold (talk) The template is located here. I don't know where the actual committee is located, I hope this helps a little bit. Super Mario Bros. (talk) The whole welcoming committee confusion is my fault, I'm afraid. I removed the section about it on the maintenance page and deleted the Mariowiki page back when I was a sysop, but I forgot to remove the mentions on the welcome template. Sorry guys. --Blitzwing 20:00, 9 June 2009 (EDT) Since the welcoming committee doesn't exist anymore, I'm assuming this proposal should be removed, right? Yoshario (talk) This Proposal is also about other aspects of Welcoming, so even though its title is rather erroneous, it should stay. - Walkazo (talk) What do you think about adding a link to the Pipe Plaza in the template? and to the Shroom  :)Tucayo (talk) Wait a minute, the Welcoming Committee is already gone? Why didn't anybody tell me? Well, anywho, I agree with Tucayo, I think the template should have links to the Shroom and the Pipe Plaza. Super Mario Bros. Per Tucayo! Profiles for Super Smash Bros. Characters NO CHARACTER INFOBOXES FOR SSB CHARACTERS 0-5 If you visit the Link, Pit, and Toon Link articles, you see that they have the kind of profiles that show their full name, first appearance, species, affiliation(s), and latest appearance. Should the other playable characters in the Super Smash Bros. series have these profiles too? Or should we drop the idea (except for Sonic and possibly R.O.B.) Proposer: User:luvluv321 Deadline: June 25, 2009, 17:00 Have every Super Smash Bros. playable character have the profile style Have absolutely no playable Super Smash Bros. character have the profile style Cobold (talk) - having {{SSB Infobox}} is fine, but {{character-infobox}} is useless for all characters who only appear in Smash and not in any other Mario game. Yoshario (talk) - Per Cobold. SMB Oh... never mind. I thought we were talking about the SSB infobox template. Per Cobold. Walkazo (talk) - Per Cobold. Time Q (talk): Per Cobold. Comments If you look here, it looks like the SSB infobox is already on all of the playable characters. Yoshario (talk) Every playable character should already have an infobox. What is this proposal trying to do different? - Cobold (talk) 07:42, 19 June 2009 (EDT) Link, Pit, Toon Link and several other SSB characters have appeared in the WarioWare series. --Grandy02 09:19, 20 June 2009 (EDT) Those are only cameo appearances, I don't think they warrant a big box with "affiliations" and "species", as well as "first appearance" and "last appearance", with first and last appearance being games not from the Mario series at all. - Cobold (talk) I know those are cameos, but it has been said that even characters from the retro microgames would deserve articles or at least lists. Mother Brain is a "Wario Character" just because she was in a microgame. That doesn't reflect my opinion, I just say how it is at the moment. But at least Link's box should be kept because he had notable roles in the German comics (predating Smash Bros.).--Grandy02 09:49, 20 June 2009 (EDT) Having an article is one thing, needing a character-infobox is another thing. If you look at Toon Link, most of the box is filled with non-Mario information. We should only put those infoboxes on pages when there's substantial Marioverse content. I think the poll is a bit too strict with its "all" or "none" options. - Cobold (talk) 10:41, 20 June 2009 (EDT) Restart Pipe Projects RESTART PIPE PROJECTS 4-0 Well, this originally started as an admins discussion, but I brought it here. I don't know if you have noticed, but at least 90% of the Pipe Projects are outdated, with retired users, complete projects are now not among other things. For example, the Big Eight Many of those articles have rewrite or construction templates, their "Exemplar" article is proposed to become unfeatured, etc. My idea of a "good" page for the Big Eight will to make them all FA. Well, thats just an example. I propose that we RESTART the greatest part of the pipe projects to ncorpore ACTIVE members. I also say Directors should have a Sub-Director and the ability to fire the inactive users. What do you think? Proposer: RAP (talk) and Tucayo (talk) Deadline: Thursday, June 25th 17:00 Make them reborn from their ashes Tucayo (talk) You werent expecting me to oppose it, were you? Super Mario Bros. (talk) I don't think we should let them rot in the outdated graveyard. Per Tucayo/RAP (?) RAP (talk) Per my own idea. *sees the timer on the proposal countdown to determination... ;o* MC Hammer Bro. (talk)Per all. Let them remain rotting in the shadows Comments Can I at least get credit for proposing this idea back in the forums? I wasn't actually expecting for my idea to be expanded into the public. RAP (talk) Borrowing my idea without my permission isn't a good idea. ;o Take Walkazo's examples. sorry, i didnt remember it was your idea Tucayo (talk) It's ok, at least I'll gladly support this. ^_^ RAP (talk) "Growth of the Summer" is coming. ^___^ PipeProject Signatures Eliminate Signatures on PipeProjects 7-0 I say that we eliminate signatures on the PipeProjects page. It messes up the counting on the sign-up part, and it looks messy. It is not that hard to use other formats of signing, such as {{User|Username Here}} or [[User:Username Here|Whatever]]. Proposer: Super Mario Bros. (talk) Deadline: Friday, 26 June 2009, 20:00 Eliminate Sigs SMB Per me. Cobold (talk) - probably the same reasons as for not using signature codes on the Proposals page: It messes it all up. Paper Yoshi (talk) - Per SMB. Walkazo (talk) - Per all. Zafum (talk) - Per Paper Yoshi. Super-Yoshi (talk) Per SMB. Yoshi Boo 118 (talk) Per SMB. Keep Sigs Comments Just a notification: When I am changing the signatures that are currently on the PipeProjects page, I am (by default) going to change the format to {{User|User name Here}}. If you do not want that format, change it yourself, or at least notify me before 8:00PM today. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Split PM/TTYD Image Collages Split Images 4-0 At the moment, there are 15 items from Paper Mario that do not have standard images. This creates an issue when standardized formatting is desired for an article containing images of many or all of the Paper Mario items. Below is a list of the items in question. As you can see below, these 15 particular items, have both their Paper Mario and their The Thousand Year Door images set side-by-side in a single image, instead of having each as their own file. This makes it impossible to utilize one image or the other separately. Separating the collage into two separate files would accomplish: uniformity, ability to use each image separately, allow for item tables to be constructed in a manner that is not visually disjointing, et cetera. Electro Pop Fire Pop Fried Egg Honey Shroom Honey Super Honey Ultra Jelly Shroom Jelly Super Jelly Ultra Koopa Tea Life Shroom Maple Shroom Maple Super Maple Ultra Volt Shroom Sleepy Sheep: Sleepy Sheep is a slightly different issue. The Sleepy Sheep image is slightly larger than all of the other PM items, and is uses a different naming convention, This is the only PM item to do so. I would like to recommend that the name be changed to reflect those of all other PM items. Image:SleepySheep_PM2.png >> Image:PaperMario_Items_SleepySheep.png Proposer: Xestrix (talk) Deadline: Monday, June 29, 17:00 Split The Images (Create two images, one for PM, one for TTYD) Xestrix (talk) - I would very much like the ability to use a PM image without having a TTYD image glued to the side of it. SMB Same here. Per Xestrix Walkazo (talk) - Per Xestrix. Uniju :D (talk) - Although I don't think this quite merits a proposal(unless there was say, another proposal or a rule or something dictating that PM(/RPG?) items must be in one image), but Per Xestrix. Leave Them Alone (Leave the images as they currently are) Comments Right now, I am in the process of creating a List of Tayce T. Recipes/By Ingredient as well as a revamp of the original list. To create the former, I have created two new templates: TTR and TTRi. In using these two templates to create a uniform recipe structure, I have ran into problems with the image collages. These files do not fit the 32x32 pixel standard of the other files, and the filename is reflected differently as a result. This makes it impossible for the template to function. (All images have the same naming convention, except for the mentioned 15)Xestrix (talk) Splitting the images into their proper parts would allow for the PM files to be accessed separately; additionally the newly created PM-only files could be made to follow the rest of the PM item's naming convention, giving ease-of-access to the PM-only files as well.Xestrix (talk) Xestrix: as a proposer its your obligation, that if your proposal is supported, you MUST change all the pages where the "collage" is Tucayo (talk) if you wont do this, then please erase this :) I've already done it, I just need to consensus to upload the images.Xestrix (talk) I also mean to change [[Image:collagename.jpg]] to [[Image:newimage.jpg]] in every page Tucayo (talk) To be technical, Xestrix would have to replace with "[[Image:collagename.PNG]]" with both "[[Image:newimagePM.png]]" and "[[Image:newimagePM2.png]]". Fortunately, both images will be able to fit side-by-side in {{Recipe-Infobox}}, and the pages would look the same before and after the split. - Walkazo (talk) I understand the work to be done, I wouldn't volunteer for an overwhelming task ^^; Xestrix (talk) - Oops, added Sig. Birdo's Gender Female 15-1-0 There was a big disagreement over the subject on Chat. I said that I would make a proposal on the subject. So, should Birdo be referred to on the MarioWiki as a male (as "he" is in Japan), a female (as "she" is in U.S.A.) or it (as Nintendo referred to Birdo in Super Smash Bros. Brawl)? Proposer: Super Mario Bros. (talk) Deadline: Monday, 29 June 2009, 17:00 Male Shroobario (talk) He was called male much more than female. Specially because he was male in america already, and he appears more in Japanese games than american ones, like Captain Rainbow, in which the fact that he IS male is part of the plot. Female Grandy02 (talk): I don't vote for this because of the (inconsistent) censoring of Birdo's gender issue in America, but because real transgender people have to be referred to by their assummed gender, and the same should go for fictional ones. Super-Yoshi (talk) - Walkazo did make a valid point over here, so I would say keep it as she. Birdoshi (talk): She is a girl ^__^ since the mario games are classified as E for everyone, so childrens can not use a transvestite character, am I right?, because their fathers don't wanna see their childrens playing with a weird character. Also, Birdo has appeared as a girl in many games. Only japanese games have a Birdo as a male, becasue that's its tradition. Nevertheless, that is not fault of Birdo, the guilty is:... her creator!,to allow that she was named of that form. ;__; T__T Sonic64 (talk): (I've always wanted to point this out!) May I remind you that she is only male in a game that takes place in a dream? Walkazo (talk) - Per Grandy02 and Super-Yoshi (and I guess, per me as well, seeing as S-Y's citing me). Also, see my comment below. Xestrix (talk) - Per Walkazo Yoshario (talk) - Per Grandy and S-Y Paper Yoshi (talk) - Per Grandy and Walkazo Tucayo (talk) - Per Walkazo's comment. Anyone that looks at Birdo will think she is a female Goomb-omb (talk) - I remember a controversy about this the last time I was active on this wiki, about a year ago. Birdo is a transgendered character and in all descriptions that say she is male, they also say she wishes to be treated like a female. The page is fine as is with the small section covering her gender identity. BoygeyDude (talk)-Per all Yoshi Boo 118 (talk)-Per all. Super Mario Bros. (talk) Well, seeing as including Birdo as a girl seems to be in the lead (like I predicted on chat), my vote goes here. Also, per all. Arend (talk) - Per all, Birdo's Yoshi's (girl)friend and partner, since they're both dinosaurs. Randoman123456789 (talk) - Per all. It Comments Well, I'm rewording my comment that I put under "It" by accident. I meant to say that Birdo should not be considered an It, but a female. The Japanese Birdo is a male (but wants to be a girl), but the American (and probably other releases) said that Birdo is a girl. So I think we should keep Birdo as a girl. SMB Well, Birdo is considered many things in America to cover up the issue. Birdo is usually, however, referred to as a female in America. SMB I am not going to vote. I see everybody's point of view and I only made this proposal to clear up a issue that started on Chat, and due to that, I will let everybody else decide. SMB We shouldn't forget that Nintendo is from Japan, therefore sbeing a male may be considered as the most official veredict. Tucayo (talk) That may be true, but if that were the case, we should also change his/her/its name to Catherine. And Toad to Kinopio. And Luigi to Ruigi. Etc. SMB Yeah, but.. Nintendo of America doesn't like that idea on Birdo, so they changed her gender. So, the pronoun: (she) is excellent for the Birdo article!. ^,^ And this is not a japanese wiki!.. so, Birdo, Toad & Luigi are fine. (closed case) n__n Birdoshi (talk) Why not just add a disclosure? "Though Birdo is officially a male character (source:Ninetndo), he is generally referred to as a female in America to avoid confusion amongst younger audiences. For the purpose of this wiki, which is not Japanese, Birdo will be referred to as a female." <-- See, easy? Get the facts out, then set a standard. Xestrix (talk) A disclosure is not necessary because there is an entire section of the Birdo article that deals with her gender (see here). Birdo is a transsexual (transgendered) male in the Japanese canon, and this was even carried over to the North American release (and maybe other regions too) of Super Mario Bros. 2, before being retconned in later games to accommodate the cultures that do not view sexuality as fluidly as the Japanese. As Grandy02 and Super-Yoshi (who was citing a comment I made in the past) pointed out, transsexuals should be identified with the gender they identifies themselves with. While the Japanese may do things differently, as Xestrix reminded us, this is not a Japanese website, and we conduct ourselves according to the English-speaking norms (admittedly, these vary from country to country, but let's just ignore that for the moment, shall we?). Shroobario's example, Captain Rainbow, actually supports calling Birdo a female, despite the fact that she is physically male in the game, stating that "depending on one's view point, she is a young lady." One could also argue that once the most recent English-language depiction of Birdo (the current one being Captain Rainbow) includes her as a plain female, we have to refer to her as a female, like how we call "Princess Toadstool" "Princess Peach", because that's her name these days. Policy is to refer to her as "Toadstool" only in the sections/articles of games that call her that, but "Peach" everywhere else; this could be applied to Birdo as well, but again, because she's transsexual, even in the games that acknowledge that she is physically male, Birdo should still be referred to using feminine pronouns. Same goes for Vivian, who is also transsexual, and must be dealt with the same way as Birdo (see here for that article's exposition in regards to Vivian's gender controversy). Also, even if the verdict is to switch (back) to gender neutrality on Birdo's article, don't use "it" to talk about Birdo, as it's considered offensive and dehumanizing, regardless of a person's sexual identity (Birdo's not technically human, but you know what I mean). - Walkazo (talk) She's not transsexual, she's transgendered--the difference is the former requires sex reassignment surgery, which I doubt exists in the Mushroom World. :P Minor difference, but I'm sure Birdo would think it's important. Goomb-omb (talk) I use the term "transsexual" because "transgender" (which I'm told is the preferred term over "transgendered" in the trans community) includes such a broad scope of mindsets, whereas Birdo specifically wishes to be accepted as a female and live as a female, which is, to my understanding, the definition of a transsexual. Not all transsexuals wish to have sex reassignment surgery, but we can only speculate on Birdo's position in relation to it, and thus, can't make any deductions based on it. I'm not an expert on transgender/transsexualism, mind you, and all the Internet literature I've read in researching the Birdo (and Vivian) controversy isn't very clear, so I could be way off... - Walkazo (talk) I'm not an expert either, but you seem to know more than me. Transsexual it is -Goomb-omb (talk) Per Walkazo. Birdo should be kept on the site as a she. Also most of users are are not Japanese and I doubt there's one. However we should keep that in Japan, Birdo is male. The use of "it" is offensive to the people who are transexuals, so I think we shouldn't use it. Uncle Logan (talk)