Talk:Bull's-Eye Bill

Super Mario Sunshine

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article? Supermariofan14

I have no clue. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Then what shall we do? Supermariofan14

I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill? Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Fanmade?

How do you know if an image is fan made or not? Like the Missile Bill "artwork"? Technickal 19:01, 1 December 2011 (EST)

Well that was fan made for sure. I made it, I changed the Bullet Bills color to red, that is it. If they are from Fantendo they are fan made.YoshiGo99

Truth

Has it ever actually been confirmed that the purple Bullet Bills in Super Mario Sunshine are in fact Missile Bills? The Nintendo Power guide just refers to them as "Bullet Bills". Vent (talk) 10:15, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

In Bowser's battle they follow you.YoshiGo99

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article? Supermariofan14

I have no clue. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Then what shall we do? Supermariofan14

I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill? Hello, I'm Time Turner.

They follow you, but unless we have a source that specifically says that they're Missile Bills, then they're not Missile Bills. Vent (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2013 (EST)

Official or conjectural ?

How is this name conjectural ? It is said that the Prima guide gave them an official name.
Banon (talk · edits) 11:08, 22 December 2012 (EST)

This page has {{part conjecture}}, not {{Conjecture}}.--File:NSMBWIIEJr.png BowserJunior RULES! 19:21, 1 January 2013 (EST)

FTR, that means that it has been given an official name in one appearance, but unnamed in another.

Shokora (talk · edits) 19:27, 1 January 2013 (EST)

Ok, I never understood this template until now.
Banon (talk · edits) 07:09, 2 January 2013 (EST)

Missile Bill is the real name?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM At minute 1:30 is called Bull's Eye-Bill. Is the official name of Missile Bill or a different enemy?--Sonic98 (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Missile Bill is the offical name alright, if it wasn't this would have a conjectural template on it. That Youtuber probably just likes calling it that, like sometimes I call Koopa Troopas "Turtles". ~~ Boo4761 But if it's an official trailer ...--Sonic98 (talk) 13:05, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

It could be an updated name, but I'd say wait until the game is out and there's more info since it could change before release. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:28, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

deleted by proposer
As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker trailer by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s

As far as I know, "Missile Bill" was only used in a Nintendo Power strategy guide ages ago. It's clear that the enemy has been renamed.

Proposer: Aokage (talk)
Deadline: July 4, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Aokage (talk) Per proposal.

Comments

Rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." It's policy to move pages to their most recent name, so there's no need for this proposal. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Yeah, just rename it. - Walkazo 12:28, 20 June 2015 (EDT)

Alright then. Aokage (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2015 (EDT)

About that Citation Needed for Superstar Saga...

Over at TCRF, they do indeed have info on a raised bill blaster, though rather than saying they fire Bull's-Eye Bills, they instead make the connection that it resembles a Bombshell Bill from Paper Mario. I couldn't find any information as to if there was any name for either the raised bill blaster or its projectiles, though, so whether or not it's a Bombshell or a Bull's-Eye Bill remains to be a mystery. At any rate, though, that's where I'm assuming the data came from.

I'm not quite sure what to do with the article, though. Since it could also potentially be a Bombshell Bill, I feel hesitant to use it as our source, especially since the source makes that comparison, not the Bull's-Eye Bill one. I would make a vote, but that feels a bit too arbitrary for something like this. What do you guys think? ~Camwood777 (talk) 22:09, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

It's golden and from a stronger cannon, I'd say Bombshell would make the most sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:14, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

It seems to be graphical data, so I'd be wary of making a call - we don't call the unused yellow Cheep Cheeps from Super Mario Bros. 3 Eep Cheeps, after all. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

But see, official Eep Cheeps came after the ambiguous-Eep Cheep. And we do mention them. So it's a different situation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

We could just say the unused Bullet Bills are unnamed but have a color similarity to Bombshell Bills, kind of like we already do with Eep Cheeps. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

Should we base ourselves on the actual Bull's Eye Bills introduced in New super Mario Bros. Wii for this page?

Right now, we are grouping together either enemies that are just red Bullet Bills (Mario Party 8) or that are stated to be Bullet Bills, but behave like Bull's Eye Bills (Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Advance 3). As far as the latter cases are concerned, both the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. (on page 99), the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Sunshine and even internal data confirm that those of Super Mario Sunshine are just Killers (as far as internal data is concerned, those used in pinnaBeach1 are called killer, those used in coronaBoss are grouped under bathtubkiller). Same for those of Super Mario Bros. 3, with both the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario advance 4 as well as the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. explicitly mentioning the U turn abilities of some Killers in the descriptions. The same case is seen in Super Mario Advance 3, where the Nintendo Official Guidebook again groups them under Killers using the name Red Killers for the ones capable of following Yoshi. While it's highly likely that the Search Killers were based on those red Killers able to follow the player, I wonder if we should be more strict and just leave a mention of their predecessors in the introduction, considering how the properly distinguished Search Killers appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:15, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Then what should we do about Missile Bill (which technically wasn't necessarily "red" in its original appearance, just flashed to the player's palette, which in most cases would make it red)? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:09, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I agree to merge the Super Mario Bros 3 and Yoshi's Island to Bullet Bill. It is POSSIBLY a callback though for the New Super Mario Bros. Wii appearance. What should we do about Purple Bullet Bill? Should we merge it to Bullet Bill as well, or should it be on its own article? -- FanOfYoshi 13:03, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I don't agree at all. While Pia lists only from NSMBW-onwards, it is based entirely around names things had at the time of the respective game, and as you pointed out, Mister Wu, there is a high probability that the writer simply wasn't made aware of name changes when doing whatever they did for research. While they were considered a Troopa-like color/behavior difference back in the day, so was Circling Boo Buddies, which Mario Maker has made objectively distinct name-wise, and it's certainly the same entity as the previously non-distinguished-in-Japanese thing. If anything, this leads more credence to the idea of merging Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp. Using guidebooks (and especially internal data) from before they were officially split to "prove" that they're the same as Bullet Bills is full of fallacy, as the name "Search Killer" and Japanese distinction didn't exist yet, which has no bearing on whether it does now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:06, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Disagree with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp. -- FanOfYoshi 13:10, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Doesn't really matter here on how well that part's agreed with, that's the least important part of that comment. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, 6 March 2019 (EST)

"Early Japanese sources treated them as a simple color and behavioral variation of the generic Bullet Bill, akin to green and red Koopa Troopas, but began treating them as a fully-separate entity in New Super Mario Bros. Wii." Well, that's confusing and unhelpful. Looking at the merge/split templates on the the page and what info we have, I'm really not sure. We have Red and Green Koopa Troopas merged, yes, because they share the same name; though Brawl named them differently, Smash 4 gives them the color identifier. Maybe we should do that, give "Bullet Bill (red)" a page? 13:33, 6 March 2019 (EST)

How is that confusing? They called them Killers back then. Now they don't. They're a flashy chasy Bullet Bill, and as such this seems similar to the previous idea of renaming the monkey Grinder to "Ukiki (Yoshi's Island series)" a page before it was decided to just merge it to Ukiki, as Nintendo seemed to have done the same. Anyways, following this "using old sources to decide how we do articles for subjects that have been repurposed in some manner that conflicts with said old sources" logic, we might as well create individual articles for the "classic" Koopalings since they were Bowser's kids back then, and that's different from Nintendo's current interpretation too. But that idea is picky and rather asinine, isn't it? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:42, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Indeed, it wouldn't solve anything and just cause more confusion than there already is. ^(T|C) 13:56, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I'd like to remind you that hyperbole arguments make a certain impact, but are rather unhelpful for conversation. In this specific case, you chose a poor example, as each Koopaling had retained their Japanese name in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, this actually being one of the very few untouched aspects of them. It's basically the opposite case as the one we are seeing dealing with here, where we are assuming that subjects with different Japanese names are the same.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)

It was not intended as hyperbole, actually, as I was not referring to the specific set of changes, but more the general idea. Anyways, didn't Japanese SMM call Circling Boo Buddies "Teresa Clock" or something after they had previously just been identified as "Teresa?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:50, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Sorry then, it looked to me like an hyperbole, I don't know about the Japanese name in Super Mario Maker, do you know where it could be found?--Mister Wu (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

I could be misremembering something, admittedly. I assume that there is additionally a vocal thing in the JP release, perhaps a Japanese Youtube video of SMM would be a good way to confirm or deny. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:43, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Since I was asked, this is what I further found about the Bullet Bills in Super Mario Bros. 3 and about the Missile Bills:

• The Super Mario Zen Hyakka, a Shogakukan book written in collaboartion with Nintendo, in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, on page 192, mentioned the Ōfuku Killer(「往復キラー」, Round Trip Killer) in the bio of the Killer
• The Perfect Ban: Mario Character Daijiten on page 63 mentioned the ōfuku type in the bio of the Killer
• The Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Collection (in my case the 25th Anniversary of Super Mario Bros. version, but it's a reprint of the original one) on page 194 has a brief description of the Killer that, as usual for Nintendo Official Guidebooks, stresses their ability to cahnge trajectory in a few cases
• The Nintendo Power Strategy Guide of Super Mario bros. 3 introduces the Missile Bills stating Bullet Bills with a red hue will travel back and forth in search of their target
• The Prima guide of New Super Mario Bros. Wii names the Search Killer Missile Bill in the Basics/Pipe Cloggers section
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker gives a new English name to the Search Killer: Bull's Eye Bill', the current name of the page

At this point it's clear that there is conflicting infromation between Japanese names and North American localization, in a situation similar to that had with Big Bertha and Boss Bass, which are split in the Nintendo Power guide but not in the Japanese Nintendo Official Guidebooks, have one of the names repurposed for an enemy that has a different Japanese name, the latter of which eventually ends up having its own English name. I'd like to remind that keeping the enemies that are not named Search Killer in the History section has a precise implication: that those enemies are just Bull's Eye Bills that weren't yet renamed. This is why I want to reexamine the evidence, in particular because even if we ignore the different name given in the early character books, Nintendo in Japan rather considered the behavior of some Killers of Super Mario Bros. 3 that of changing direction or making a U-turn (or a round trip). Furthermore, the purple Bullet Bills of Super Mario Sunshine have homing capabilities, but not only the name, their appearance as well is different, with red not being among the colors of the Bullet Bills that follow Mario. In the case of Mario Party 8, the homing behavior reportedly isn't there, just the red color is that of Bull's Eye Bills. The one case that has similar behavior and appearance is that of Super Mario Advance 3, yet I wonder how much we are allowed to state that they are not-yet-renamed Bull's Eye Bills or rather the precursors on which the actual Bull's Eye Bills were based.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I have no idea what the case for Mario Party 8 is, but I will point out that the homing capabilities of the purple Bullet Bill only differ from than of the SMB3 enemy in that they don't give up. That is to say, they still make U-turns. The whole thing seems less a replacement on the concept and more a refining of the concept to me, combined with greater technical capabilities they wanted to take advantage of, as the NES wouldn't have been capable of the current behavior (particularly on a graphical level, as sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the SNES, and mass sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the Super FX chip), and the old "round-trip" name not being accurate for an that homes more freely. Anyways, if we are going to split Missile and Bull's-Eye Bill, I still feel that the purple Bullet Bill should go with the Missile Bill and not Bullet Bill, as they act far more similar than most Sunshine enemies and have a red flash, just limited to the nose. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:25, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Ahem... -- FanOfYoshi 02:27, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Except that unlike that, the so-called "originals" never showed up again, unless you want to say that "Search Killer" was the SMW2 unused asset but not the SMB3 enemy. Even the SMM ones act like the NSMBW ones, with the SMB3-style SMM ones using colors near-identical to the color they flash to in small or super Mario is being played as in SMB3. Additionally, SMG Bats didn't even look like Swoops, while in this case, the only off-model appearance is from the game where every previously-used enemy was majorly off-model. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:25, 7 March 2019 (EST)

I meant to point out your comment in response to Camwood777's vote. -- FanOfYoshi 04:52, 7 March 2019 (EST)

That was a year and a half ago. Anyways, the blinky red nose seems indicative of the blinky sometimes-red appearance in SMB3, and I had forgotten then just how similar their U-turning thing was. I suppose there's one other difference, in that the SMS ones explode rather spectacularly, but all Bills do in Sunshine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:01, 7 March 2019 (EST)

One can change their mind in the meantime. This is a complex matter, and since we don't work at Nintendo, we can't have a definitive answer on whether a renaming happened or not. I'm presently worried by the status of the page as it seems to put together enemies based on not so clear criteria (that's mainly due to Mario Party 8 that uses an appearance-based criterion, if someone has that game that part should be reviewed as soon as possible). I also think we're making bold claims right now in the History section, although we can't really fault anyone since it was the Prima guide that made that connection first and foremost. This is why I'm asking to see what we can do. Merging with the Bullet Bills page is a solution, I'm wondering if we can alter the page structure so that the inclusion of the previous Mario-seeking Bullet Bills is less of a claim that they are the same thing and more of an observation of how they are the likely predecessors of the Bull's Eye Bill(e.g. by adding a Possible/Likely predecessors section).--Mister Wu (talk) 08:06, 7 March 2019 (EST)

The internal names don't always add up - for example, the Bullet Bill in Super Mario Galaxy is "HomingKiller" internally, which more accurately describes the soon-to-be-named Bull's-Eye Bill. Also, we have another example of a Bullet Bill type previously being grouped together in Japanese sources but clearly separated more recently (Bouncing Bullet Bill). Though the Zen Hyakka information is new, so that could change things. If we do split Missle Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill, I also suggest leaving the red Bullet Bill from Yoshi's Island as Bull's-Eye Bill, as they are functionally the same thing and those book sources don't cover that game. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:32, 7 March 2019 (EST)

I personally disagree with that. I'd rather organize these Bullet Bill variants by using case-by-case analysis for each game and, based on that, decide if the variants will be merged with Bullet Bill article or split into their own. To explain how I'd intend this, Missle Bill would be either covered in Bullet Bill's SMB3 section or given its own article, Purple Bullet Bill would be covered in Sunshine section, and the red Bullet Bill in SMA3 section while the similarity to Bull's-Eye Bill would be noted. SmokedChili (talk) 09:03, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Why splitting the SMB3 information into its own article if it is considered to be the same thing? -- FanOfYoshi 09:13, 7 March 2019 (EST)

We've one reference now, Super Mario Zen Hyakka, that gives the Super Mario Bros. 3 type a unique name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Do they disappear after a couple of seconds in YWW? -- FanOfYoshi 10:00, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Judging from YouTube, no they don't, but this is again behavior refining, given the previous Yoshi appearance was in the super-secret last level of a GBA remake. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Is Ofuku intended to be taken as a proper noun or not? -- FanOfYoshi 06:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Yes, Ōfuku Killer is in quotations, and the quote states that's what it's called. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:33, 8 March 2019 (EST)

I just checked YouTube, and in the MP8 minigame, all the Bills home in to a very limited extent. Moreso than Brawl, less so than most other "homing" depictions. It's more of a very wide curve. EDIT: It's most comparable to the ones in Super Mario 64, in that it's on a single plane like the "u-turn" ones, but without the u-turn itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:38, 8 March 2019 (EST)

It is additionally noteworthy, and related to the "Homing Killer" internal name above, that in Galaxy 2, some Bullet Bills home like in the first Galaxy, while others don't, and the only visual difference is that the homing ones briefly flash red eyes when they catch sight of the player. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Furthermore, it is worth noting that in some games, Bull's-Eye Bills act similar to the SM64 enemy, and that the Cat Bullet Bill (which dos so as well) is identified as a Search Killer internally (itself likely a Goropu-Indy situation). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:19, 10 March 2019 (EST)

A timeline on platform Bill homing:

• SMB3/SMA4-Missile Bill/"Ofuku Killer": Flashes different colors a la Invincible Mario (black, orange, and red in remakes), U-turns along a flat plane, gives up after a few turns
• SMW2/SMA3-"Red Killer": Solid red, biting animation, follows along all planes of movement, shrinks into nothingness after a while, is unused in original
• SM64/SM64DS-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, turns quickly and loosely on a flat plane
• SMS-Purple Bullet Bill/"Killer": Purple with red blinky nose, U-turns along a flat plane, persistent
• SMG-Bullet Bill/"<Homing> Killer": Black with red eye flash upon detection, follows along all planes of movement upon detection
• NSMBW-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Red with slight glow, follows along all planes of movement
• SMG2-Bullet Bill/"<Homing> Killer": Same as SMG
• NSMBU-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBU
• SM3DW-Cat Bullet Bill/"Neko Killer/Search Killer": Is a cat, follows quickly and semi-accurately along flat plane
• CTTT-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along flat plane (apparently, I don't actually have this game)
• SMM-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along all planes of movement, SMB3 style looks like the shade Missile Bill flashes to if Small or Super Mario.
• YWW-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red, follows along all planes of movement
• SMR-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBW
• SMO-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, follows slowly and accurately along flat plane

-Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Thanks, this is very usfeul as a summary, by the way, it is confirmed that in Super Mario 3D World the Cat Bullet Bill is known as Neko Killer in both the Nintendo Official Guidebook and the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., but its internal name is KillerSearch, way to go to confuse us... I won't be doing something in the short term anyway, so we have some time to clarify the main points and see if a proposal would be appropriate.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

A proposal would be appropriate. From what can i tell, this should work: The SMB3 enemy should be split due to that different Japanese name. The Purple Bullet Bill is sufficiently unique. The Yoshi's Island thing should be merged to Bullet Bill as it is a more complicated case than Bouncing Bullet Bill. Since none of us work for Nintendo, we don't have definitive answers right now, so, maybe contacting them? (no that's a dumb idea) -- FanOfYoshi 04:22, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Purple Bullet Bill acts almost exactly like SMB3 Missile Bill, so if Missile Bill were to be split I personally would advocate for it to remain in the same article as it, as it can be inferred to be intended as the same entity du to said behavioral similarities. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:47, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

The Neko/Search Killer thing is likely a similar case to Ugan being identified as Unbaba in files initially, ie likely intended as that on the outset of its programming into the game before evolving into a distinct entity during development. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:53, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Additionally "Purple Bullet Bill" almost matches with its Japanese name "Killer (murasaki)". They're possibly intended to be one of the 4 variants in the game. Again, we don't have definitive answers. -- FanOfYoshi 04:58, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Regardless, behaviorally, it seems to be intended to invoke Missile Bill, and in fact is a lot closer to the source in behavior than most other of the game's enemies. I'll additionally point out that there seems to have only been one guide that used "Ofuku Killer," with the rest just lumping them with normal Killers. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:40, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

It seems to invoke. There is no proof that this is a Missile Bill besides the behavior. Anyways, the similarity between the two can be noted rather than the two getting lumped in one page. -- FanOfYoshi 09:58, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

It's a big "seems." They're more likely thee same than not. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:28, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Again, we don't have definitive answers. What convinced you that they are the same? -- FanOfYoshi 12:32, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

I've explained this again and again. "Ofuku Killer" was in a single guide, with the rest at the time lumping them with Killers. These act almost exactly the same in a game full of misfits, so them being lumped with normal Killers when the initial version was in most cases additionally lumped with normal Killers doesn't mean a thing. Furthermore, they blink. Saying that none of these are significant is just ignoring information. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:05, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

It's a complicated situation. -- FanOfYoshi 06:58, April 30, 2019 (EDT)

While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration is potentially a callback to the previous iteration, the Purple Bullet Bill is more based on its color, rather than on its behavior. For the Purple Bullet Bill, compare it to Ice Snifits rather than Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō. What about the encyclopedia still grouping them together in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, while considering the Bull's-Eye Bill a different species? Yes, i'm aware that these iterations called them "Missile Bill", but that's because of Prima's incompetence. That says, i do want to know how LinkTheLefty wants to reorganize this page... -- FanOfYoshi 10:10, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

What does purple bill even have to do with it... [-]€40 vv@(talk · edits) 10:32, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Ikr. I wouldn't recommand restarting another proposal immediately, as the below proposal has been cancelled to let out the discussion play first. -- FanOfYoshi 10:37, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Excuse me, but how in Hell does "not calling them by a name that didn't exist yet and logically assuming that it's the same thing as before" qualify as "incompetence?" I think you're ovrstepping some boundaries here. I think "blinky homing Bullet Bill" is good enough of a specification, which Purple Bullet Bill qualifies for. It's not that they introduced a new enemy for NSMBW, they divergently evolved what was previously typically considered a color variation in Japan into a definitive separate entity, while it was already considered one in English. They may have some so because it was already considered different in English, I don't know. Bouncing Bullet Bill became its own thing later in Japan too iirc, and it's still definitely the same entity. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:55, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed, Prima is well known for their incompetence but calling them out as being "incompetent" for not using a name that didn't exist at the time, for a subject that's nearly identical and most likely intended to be the same, is ridiculous. There's no reason whatsoever to split the SMB3 Missile Bills from the ones that appeared in NSMBW onwards; we've established countless times that a different Japanese name alone does not instantly mean a split.-- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:58, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

The point was more about how we can't know for sure that they are the same thing instead of just precursors of what would then become a more consistent enemy in both name, appearance and features. I just feel that we should be more cautious on the "they are the same"; this however doesn't really need a split, we might just use some wording that explains how the current Bull's Eye Bills appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, with those coming before being labeled as "likely precursors" or something like that.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:36, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Oh, Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heiho aren't a comparable situation, as they appeared in a follow-up of a Yoshi game, within the Bullet Bill's design being more 1:1 to its main series design in this game. -- FanOfYoshi 03:40, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

Like i said, Purple Bullet Bill is considered to be a purple variant of the Bullet Bill. While Guided Bullet Bill has got ahead, and got split, Purple Bullet Bill is more complicated than Guided Bullet Bill. While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration might be a callback to the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration, the Yoshi's Island iteration is a color variant, which, while Bouncing Bullet Bill returned in Yoshi's New Island, the red ones didn't, so it's too speculative to say for sure. The encyclopedia still have them in one entry in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, while the New Super Mario Bros. Wii onwards sections separates them from normal Bullet Bills -- FanOfYoshi 11:14, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

It's a platforming game in the extended Mario franchise. It counts. Now, as for Purple, it was a blinky, chasy version of Bullet Bill, which made rapid u-turns. A blatant callback to the blinky, chasy version of the Bullet Bill that made u-turns in SMB3. I will not be moved on this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:35, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed. TheDarkStar 14:47, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

Also, nearly every returning enemy in Sunshine had a strange design, with the sole exception of Chain Chomps. Purple Bullet Bills and Bull's-Eye Bills are as similar to each other as regular Bullet Bills and the ones from Sunshine, Japanese name aside, which as I've said is not a good reason by itself to split. Splitting the Sunshine and Yoshi's Island Missile Bills on the basis of being different from the other Missile Bills, which ignores the fact that both of those games had odd Bullet Bill designs to begin with, and that some Japanese guides treated them as a color variant, is silly. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:34, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

I failed to notice that the proposal was canceled, so I’ll just say here that I agree with what has been said. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 16:45, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

I somehow agree with Mister Wu. -- FanOfYoshi 09:57, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

For the record, I am open to only splitting the original about-facing ones from the later fully-homing ones in theory (although it could be explained as technical limitations), but in practice, having two "Missile Bill" subjects might be just as messy as the Boss Bass / Cheep Chomp situation. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:00, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty, what do you think about Purple Bullet Bill, since Guided Bullet Bill got ahead and got split? -- FanOfYoshi 13:24, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

Guided Bullet Bill itself refers to two colors of its own: blue and black (which, for whatever reason, doesn't look accounted for in Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.). Purple Bullet Bill is the closer analogue to Bull's-Eye Bill since it has no special characteristics besides homing. Anyway, after the name for the Guided Bullet Bills was found, it seemed a bit forced to have both them and Purple Bullet Bill in the same article. I know that these are deemed color variations in Encyclopedia, but as Bouncing Bullet Bill demonstrates, there are instances where color variations become named. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:15, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

The only logical thing to do is to contact Nintendo JP to ask to them what of which are based of off, and/or if it's indeed a reappearance, or a new enemy. No, that's a bad idea, isn't it? I call Prima incompetent, because they were incompetent enough not to recognize that it was a new enemy, than a returning enemy. If they recognized it to be a new enemy, they'd give them another name. Red/blinking chasing concept isn't enough to convince me that they are the same. @Doc von Schmeltwick, regarding the above, "I assume that there is additionally a vocal thing in the JP release, perhaps a Japanese Youtube video of SMM would be a good way to confirm or deny." They just use the english name of the subjects, like in the english version. Regarding my "What convinced you that they are the same", i was mainly referring to the Super Mario Bros. 3 Missile Bills and Purple Bullet Bills. That says, i do want to know which sections Mister Wu thinks should be affected. -- FanOfYoshi 08:18, June 1, 2019 (EDT)

In what possible way would Prima be incompetent for looking at an identical enemy when the only thing differentiating them is the Japanese name and not labeling it as something entirely different? I'm sorry, but that logic is ridiculous. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:40, June 1, 2019 (EDT)

Out of curiosity, what are both the Bull's-Eye Bill and Bull's-Eye Banzai's internal filenames in New Super Mario Bros. Wii? Still, i wonder how Mister Wu intends this reorganization to be, and which sections he wants affected. -- FanOfYoshi 07:36, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

They share the same model data as their non-homing counterparts in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:00, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

@FOY Please stop saying that. Mister Wu is not the God of Organization. Repeatedly saying that you wonder what he thinks over and over (particularly when he's already said) isn't going to magically make things different. Additionally, looking for file names in what in most cases is a texture swap in 3D games will not change much either. The fact of the matter is that attempting a split here is pointless and confusing, it's already written that they were initially considered a recolor in Japan (which is since rescinded) while thy were always different from Bullet Bill in the West, and that's pretty much what Mister Wu said. Not exactly, but pretty much. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:07, June 3, 2019 (EDT)

Maybe the Ice Snifit example is too complicated regarding the Purple Bullet Bill. How do you explain that we are reorganizing the blue Lava Bubble then? Same scenario, no? -- FanOfYoshi 05:15, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

Not even remotely. One is a small variation that acts quite differently (SMG/2), another is a Troopa-esque color variation through and through (SPP), and another is literally a retexture with no other differences to speak of (SM3DW). With the example here, the behavior is mostly consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:58, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

Then what about the fact that it's on the same book that each section treats them differently? -- FanOfYoshi 15:00, June 7, 2019 (EDT)

Maybe the blue Lava Bubble example is too complicated? -- FanOfYoshi 07:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

Under those circumstances, i'd prefer to trust the Super Mario Pia over the Prima guide. Like i said above, how i'd intend this, the Super Mario Bros. 3 section should be merged with Bullet Bill due to Zen Hyakka being so far the only book to distinguish Missile Bill from Bullet Bill in a Japanese source, Purple Bullet Bill should be split into its own article, and the Yoshi's Island section should be merged with Bullet Bill as well. While it might be based off of one of the 3 previous iteration, we can't say for sure that they are still the same. Maybe it got replaced, maybe it's always the same, too many assumption are made to my taste. The encyclopedia was made 6 years after Search Killer was separate from Killer, and yet, each game section relies on what they were called in this game. How do you explain that Face block is getting merged with Stretch Block? Same scenario, no? -- FanOfYoshi 08:30, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

Regarding the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. treatment in different sections: for the most part (with few exceptions like Keronpa Ball), each section treats the subject as it did in the source guide. That's why names tend to change depending on the section, and why certain things get their own listing in some sections and are grouped together in others (for example, Big Cheep Cheep only gets its own listing in the New Super Mario Bros. section despite similar-sized Big Deep Cheeps also appearing in the New Super Mario Bros. 2 section, as other sections group it together with Cheep Cheep). So when it comes to name changes, it's not helpful in drawing the line. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:46, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

Why do we have Guided Bullet Bill split if Purple Bullet Bill is not split? -- FanOfYoshi 06:57, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

A: That was done without discussion; B: This is an exact analogue to the prior enemy, complete with blinking. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:07, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

Since I had not done anything for so long about the discussion and the page, I updated the text so that it simply matches what we know about them as well as the introductory paragraph, without ignoring the English name - that we have to report anyway - as well as the Japanese name in the case of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, technically the first game to use the Bull's Eye Bills. I assume that Mario Party 9 uses the Bull's Eye Bills from New Super Mario Bros. Wii - I kept the Missile Bills name since Bull's Eye Bills was yet to be introduced -, please correct that part if they are actually different Mario-seeking Bullet Bills.
This is a bit of the idea I had in mind, I'm not sure if we're still conveying the right message to the reader who just quickly visits the page, but hopefully for the reader who actually reads the paragraphs this might give a clearer idea, with less unneeded assumptions.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:32, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

Regarding the Big Cheep Cheep, it might just be a mistake. -- FanOfYoshi 15:29, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

Fine by me. Regarding that you changed the wordings on the page. Out of curiosity, does the Golden Bullet Bill chases the player? -- FanOfYoshi 09:31, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

In Sunshine? No, it acts like a normal Bill in that game except it releases a ring of coins instead of just one if it's sprayed before hitting the ground. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:29, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

Kaitensuru Hono was split without any discussion. Same scenario, no? -- FanOfYoshi 10:42, June 24, 2019 (EDT)

Not even remotely, as one is a bloody fireball and due to the overlapping development periods by different teams the similarity could easily be coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:50, June 24, 2019 (EDT)

So, if i get this right, we're only 4 people to agree with changing anything, one that prefers a more case-by-case basis (SmokedChili), and 6 to disagree on changing anything? -- FanOfYoshi 13:49, June 25, 2019 (EDT)

A proper vote hasn't been made, so we don't know about what the other people outside of this discussion would vote. The point of this discussion isn't seeing the numbers, but rather understanding if there are problems and what are the possible improvements that can be made.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:38, June 25, 2019 (EDT)

My two cents: Given how SMB3 Missile Bills had an old guide give them a unique name from Bullet Bills vs. Encyclopedia SMB only mentioning them in Bullet Bill's description, I'd say their status as a separate enemy is debatable. And given how regular Bullet Bills have homing abilities in some games, along with flashing/blinking in some cases, attributing them to Bulls-Eye Bills, which appeared later, sounds like jumping into (hasty) conclusions. Sure, they flashed in NSMB, but aside from becoming red later, how is that significantly different from, say, Deep Cheeps adapting the green Cheep Cheep palette for themselves? B-E. Bill is specifically a homing type, B. Bill varies. That's why for now I think it would be for the best to mention only named Bulls-Eye Bill appearances (English and Japanese; NSMBWii - onwards) in the Bulls-Eye Bill article and move anything else to the Bullet Bill article. SmokedChili (talk) 13:13, June 27, 2019 (EDT)

So then how do you feel about Bouncing Bullet Bill? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:19, June 27, 2019 (EDT)

Same as Bulls-Eye; there's yellow bouncing Bullet Bills in Yoshi's Island and green Bullet Bills with unique Japanese name in Yoshi's New Island. Emphasis on Japanese name. SmokedChili (talk) 11:24, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

Barring the physics differences in the game engines, they are practically identical, and the color change is likely a throwback to ordinary Bullet Bills in the first game. Relay Heihō is in the same boat, and moving pre-New Island information to Boo Guy would be needlessly pedantic. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:46, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

I agree with LinkTheLefty. Like i said before, they're not a comparable situation, as, unlike Bull's-Eye Bill, they were similar enough to be based off of each other. Current situation is pretty much complicated, and is more confusing than if reorganized. -- FanOfYoshi 08:42, June 29, 2019 (EDT)

Also, it's more easy to tell, since it's a Yoshi game with previous mechanics and enemies. -- FanOfYoshi 05:58, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Here's my point of view.

• First, Purple Bullet Bill. It's a flashy homing Bullet Bill. I'd consider this different regularly, but looking at the remarkably off-model designs of most enemies, these are probably Missile Bills with a different design.
• SMB3 Missile Bills. Different Japanese name does not mean a split.
• Biting Bullet Bill. It's a red homing Bullet Bill, I think it can safely be considered a Missile Bill.
• Bouncing Bullet Bill. Their cannon aims at Yoshi, but the Bullet Bills themselves don't home in, so it's probably just a variation of Bullet Bill. It's been split already, and I think it should stay split.
• Bathtub Bullet Bill. It's a blinky homing Bullet Bill, it should be merged to Bull's-Eye Bill.

TheDarkStar 15:24, July 4, 2019 (EDT)

Bathtub ones? Do you mean the blue ones? Or the black one? I'd oppose both. -- FanOfYoshi 12:16, July 5, 2019 (EDT)

Both. TheDarkStar 12:20, July 5, 2019 (EDT)

I'm giving my own two cents: While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration might have been based off of one of the previous iterations, we can't say for sure about which one it got based and which one is coincidental. Same for Purple Bullet Bill, which had the normal Bullet Bill chasing in two iterations, namely Super Mario Bros. 3 and Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3. Anyways, it's pretty clear to me that the Yoshi's New Island Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heyho are the same as the previous one, and it cannot be a coincidence, as it's a follow-up of a Yoshi game. If the Bull's-Eye Bill appeared in there, with disappearing after a few seconds, i'd have been convinced for the Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 iteration. -- FanOfYoshi 09:50, July 7, 2019 (EDT)

Also, forgot to say... Under those circumstances, i'd prefer to trust the Super Mario Pia over Prima under a case-by-case basis. They were more competent than Prima to acknowledge that they properly first appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Regarding the "they were always considered to be separate from Bullet Bill in the West", actually no, that doesn't matter. Creator's intent, not Nintendo Power's mistake and/or Prima's incompetence. The distinction in the West doesn't matter an ounce. -- FanOfYoshi 04:27, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Actually, yes it does matter, because this is an American wiki. You were already told that Prima was not incompetent to take an enemy from SMB3 and give it a logical name. Creator's intent changes often, and either way we can't read the creators' minds, so Missile Bill might now be a Nyan Taco. TheDarkStar 11:16, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, i'm aware that it's a logical name, but they didn't distinguish it from the previous iterations, and given the long gap, it's hard to tell wether they're still the same, replaced, or not based off of any iteration at all. -- FanOfYoshi 11:19, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Well, if they didn't distinguish them from other iterations, then they could be based off any iteration of Missile Bill. TheDarkStar 11:41, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

@TheDarkStar, no, like i said, we don't know of which iteration it has been based off of. It could be based on 1, 2, or 3 iteration, but it is possible that it could even not have been based off of any. -- FanOfYoshi 11:43, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Well, since the SMB3 Missile Bills are the only iteration that flashes, the NSMBW Missile Bills are probably based off the SMB3 Missile Bills. TheDarkStar 12:06, July 9, 2019 (EDT)

Possibly, but we don't know wether it's still the same, or wether it's a replacement of the original. And do you mean just the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration? -- FanOfYoshi 13:33, July 9, 2019 (EDT)

I mean it's probably based off the SMB3 Missile Bill in look, and based off Purple Bullet Bill or Biting Bullet Bill in behavior. It could even be based off all iterations. TheDarkStar 12:50, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

Excuse me, but how could it be based off of every iterations? -- FanOfYoshi 12:55, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

It shares its blinkiness with the SMB3 iteration, and it shares its tenacity and homing behavior with the other two. TheDarkStar 13:01, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

Actually, it's due to less technical restrictions that it moves in every angle. The similarity with the other two could easily be a coincidence. -- FanOfYoshi 13:17, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

(indent restart) That's exactly the case. The SMB3 Missile Bills only acted like they did due to technical restrictions, making it even more evident that these enemies are one and the same. TheDarkStar 13:33, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

I was specifically talking about the Yoshi's Island and Super Mario Sunshine ones. And no, we can't say for sure that they are the same, or if it is a replacement. Best to contact Nintendo. -- FanOfYoshi 13:38, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

In fairness, are we sure that the original Missile Bills were supposed to be "homing" like the later ones? "Roundtrip" gives a specific idea that may not be the same as the eventual Bull's-Eye Bills. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:42, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

Given they only turn once they pass the player, I'd say that's pretty self-evident. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:53, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

Either way, a proposal would probably be necessary at this point. TheDarkStar 13:18, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

But then again, we can't say for sure wether it's still the same, or if it is a replacement of the original. Either way, better idea: Don't. Not only will it not pass given the margin of oppose votes right now (with people clearly not wanting to understand the situation), it'll just annoy people. -- FanOfYoshi 13:23, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

That was completely unnecessary. There are no differences between the "blinky chasy Bullet Bill that u-turns", the "blinky purple chasy Bullet Bill", and the "red homing Bullet Bill". There is absolutely no reason to split these, and if a proposal was made, I'd oppose. Requesting admin input. TheDarkStar 13:48, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Ooh, ya almost had a point, then ya overstepped your boundaries by adding what was in the parentheses. I've half a mind to give you a courtesy reminder for that. I understand the situation perfectly, which is why I oppose splitting. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:53, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

If it helps at all, here. What was in the parentheses wasn't the first time this has happened. TheDarkStar 15:00, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

It's a complicated situation. It'd be best to start a proposal at this point. -- FanOfYoshi 15:05, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Okay, there is a... lot here, and I lost the point of the discussion about partway through. A few of the sections have a split/merge template, so I'll point out each one in my opinion.

• Super Mario Bros. 3: This is kind of a "pre-Missile Bill", if you will. Certainly acts different than regular Bullet Bills, but still holds the same basic property of the later Bull's-Eye Bills: they follow the player. The Super Mario Advance 4 Nintendo Power Player's Guide does call these "Missile Bills", which means the section certainly belongs on this page.
• Super Mario Sunshine: The Purple Bullet Bills here, again, have the same basic property; only the visual style is different. The only real difference between these and regular Bull's-Eye Bills are they can be defeated by water, but that's a common weakness of most enemies in Sunshine, even returning ones. Because of the different name, visual style, and the fact that it functions in 3D space rather than 2D, it could have its own page if that's wanted, but it otherwise functions exactly the same as a Bull's-Eye Bill.
• Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3: This one's a little different. While they don't actually bite Yoshi and that is purely visual, they do have something different from the Bull's-Eye Bill: They vanish on screen. If a Bull's-Eye Bill misses Mario, it will simply keep going off-screen in the last direction it was moving in. Unfortunately, the Nintendo Power guide for SMA3 does not list a name, which the guide is terrible with anyway. It should not be merged with Bullet Bill, but I don't know if it should stay where it is, either.
• Mario Party 8: This one can be merged. Red with a speed increase, but it lacks the homing that makes a Bull's-Eye Bill what it is.

17:01, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Do we need to make another proposal? We've been talking in circles. -- FanOfYoshi 17:14, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Also, since another section is suggested to be merged, i think there will be more options, and will over-complicate things. -- FanOfYoshi 17:19, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

I would've hoped that discussion would've helped narrow down the options so it's not as overwhelming as the first proposal attempt. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:14, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

There's really only five potential options here; Split SMB3 Missile Bill, which would be ridiculous since it's called Missile Bill in a guide, split Purple Bullet Bill, split Biting Bullet Bill, split everything, and do nothing. I'd support doing nothing. TheDarkStar 18:26, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

This seems way too complicated to accurately put into a proposal (see below). The only one I can see that really needs the suggested change is the Mario Party 8 info. 18:32, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

A precisation: the Missile Bill name is a North American thing, in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Advance 4 (the first Nintendo Official Guidebook covering them) they are not split from the Bullet Bills and they are stated to be able to make U-turns, both these aspects are retained in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.(with this name I mean the Japanese one, not its translation). Earlier official Japanese sources talked about the roundtrip capabilities of them and again kept them with Bullet Bills, but U-turn was the term that subseded roundtrip in the official guides. The New Super Mario Bros. Wii Bull's Eye Bill is a separate enemy known as Search Killer. This is the first time said term is used, and this enemy is indeed the first case of the Bull's Eye Bill we currently know. The original Missile Bills were a split that has never been officially acknowledged in Japan and the explicit connection through name sharing between said Missile Bills and the Bull's Eye Bills was not made by the developers, but rather by Prima Games.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:07, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

At the time. That does not mean they can't be the same thing from before, it's just divergent evolution of concepts, in a similar vein to how Beanerang Bro was originally an odd Boomerang Bro that this wiki split rather prematurely. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:18, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Do we really need to consider the Japanese names here? I mean, they should definitely be noted, but this is an English wiki. Grouping the enemies based on their Japanese names would just cause more of a headache. 00:23, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick, @TheDarkStar, and @Waluigi Time, then what do you think about the Mario Party ones? I think we should merge these before making another proposal. -- FanOfYoshi 00:48, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Merge the Mario Party ones with Bullet Bill. They don't home in. TheDarkStar 00:49, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

But, should that be done prior to a proposal? -- FanOfYoshi 01:05, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

I don't see why a proposal would be necessary to split an enemy that doesn't even act like a Missile Bill. TheDarkStar 01:07, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

You misunderstand. I said if it should be merged prior to a proposal for everything else, or should be merged along with the proposal. -- FanOfYoshi 01:11, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

As Alex95 said above, it would be near-impossible to make a proposal here that isn't ridiculously overwhelming when it comes to options. TheDarkStar 01:14, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Hmmm... You're right! It should be cut to less options. -- FanOfYoshi 01:19, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Not just at the time, the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. clearly show that their position on the Super Mario Bros. 3 Missile Bills hasn't changed, with them again not giving them a dedicated box and stressing how they are Bullet Bills, just with the capability of making U turns. Conversely, the Bull's Eye Bills have their own box in the pages dedicated to New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Ultimately, if we keep the previous Bullet Bills capable of changing direction in reaction to the player here, it's just for convenience, since the first mainly red Bullet Bills that reacted to Mario were introduced in Super Mario Bros. 3 and we want to show how the Bull's Eye Bills came as an evolution of preexisitng concepts. If the Super Mario Pia might still be considered a case of following the names strictly, after the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. it's clear that Nintendo in Japan doesn't absolutely consider the Bull's Eye Bills the same as the Super Mario Bros. 3 Bullet Bills.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:05, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed. -- FanOfYoshi 12:32, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Also, see Kuromame, which do not keep their name in there, and have a new one, based on its appearance and behavior. -- FanOfYoshi 12:33, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Aside from Kuromame though, most everything in that kept their names and classifications they had at the time, hence the Kyodai/Biggu/Dai/Deka thing when in all but the Cheep Cheeps' case, they're pretty clearly the same thing, or at least the same concept. And these, aside from the MP ones, are definitely all the same concept. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:31, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

So you mean that you support merging the Mario Party ones? -- FanOfYoshi 13:33, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

As has been said, that doesn't need a proposal as it is obviously a different thing, honestly more comparable to Mad Bullet Bill. I've seen gameplay, and Bowser shoots them towards the player, which may have been initially misconstrued by someone as them homing in. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:35, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

No, SMB3 Missile Bills' turn-around gimmick isn't the same concept as Bullet and Bulls-Eye Bills' constant chasing. If they had some vertical position alignment in relation to Mario's position, then I'd be convinced they're homing, but they're not. They just switch directions when they pass Mario, and only once. SmokedChili (talk) 14:22, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Sunshine ones act like the SMB3 ones, except they don't give up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:13, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

You keep saying that, but it ignores the fact that by that logic any homing Bullet Bill in 3D Mario games (horizontally at least) would also act like SMB3 M. Bills, which I said are debatably separate from B. Bills - at best, to add. But it's not just U-turns, you could also get creative and try to make them go in circles and even figure 8s, but that's more of a testament to their tracking abilities. They're actually closer to SM64 B. Bills, where the tracking traits really originate from. Mario acting as a trigger to turn around is nowhere close to chasing down Mario at sight. SmokedChili (talk) 16:22, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Because at the time, in JP, they weren't separate, but they are now. Not being separate before does not bar them from being separate later, as shown by Bouncing Bullet Bill. The vanishing act in SMA3 is also really not relevant, because loads of SMW2 enemies had new behaviors, like Piranha Plant actually eating the player character and whatever was going on with the Pokey situation between Spiked Fun Guy and Needlenose. It's actually quite possible that them being separated in JP later was inspired by them being separate in Western depictions earlier. And obviously, it would be impossible to have them "home in" in SMB3 believably like they do in the later games, as sprite rotation on the NES is utterly impossible. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:12, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Don't forget what I wrote: the U-turning Bullet Bills of Super Mario Bros. 3 still aren't separate from the Bullet Bills according to the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., the first Bullet Bills that change direction in reaction to Mario and are acknowledged to be a separate enemy in that book are the Purple Bullet Bills from Super Mario Sunshine. This is interesting, as the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Sunshine didn't list the various Bullet Bills but rather had them grouped in the same box, showing again that the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. didn't just copy-paste what was said in the Nintendo Official Guidebooks of the time, reinforcing the lack of distinction seen in the Super Mario Bros. 3 case.

Just to clarify a further point: I'm not necessarily against keeping the previous enemies in this page to show how the Bull's Eye Bills came from preexisting concepts, I just want to avoid passing them as the same entity while, even according to more recent sources, the process that brought to the current Bull's Eye Bills was a gradual one, with the previous entities not necessarily being already Bull's Eye Bills.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:28, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Hmmm... If another proposal is made, it should be cut off to these options:

• Merge Missile Bill and Yoshi's Island iteration into Bullet Bill
• Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration and the Yoshi's Island iteration to Bullet Bill
• Just merge Missile Bill into Bullet Bill
• Just merge the Yoshi's Island iteration into Bullet Bill
• Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration into Bullet Bill
• Just Split Purple Bullet Bill
• Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Yoshi's Island iteration to Bullet Bill
• Don't do anything

The Mario Party ones would be a standalone, since they need to be merged before another proposal, as it would be against the previous proposal. -- FanOfYoshi 11:23, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

That's still too many. Really, any proposal about this subject would have far too many options and overwhelm everyone who wants to cut up this page. TheDarkStar 11:28, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Also, Missile Bills may not be different from Bull's-Eye Bills in Japan, but this is an English wiki. It's all nice and okay to acknowledge the SMB3 Missile Bills not being different from Bullet Bills in Japan, but organizing a page based on the Japanese names when they're separate in America, even being named Missile Bills in the SMA3 guide, is, frankly, ridiculous. TheDarkStar 11:34, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

It's subjective about wether it's ridiculous or not. -- FanOfYoshi 11:36, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Nintendo is a Japanese company, so Japanese material takes precedence over English one when there are contradictions like in this case, especially because Missile Bills comes from the Prima guide, from the material we have Nintendo of America exclusively used Bull's Eye Bills to refer to the current Bull's Eye Bills.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:41, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, some of those can be further nixed (for example, I think it's safe to assume the "split Purple Bullet Bill" options would be unpopular and if anything could merge with the Bullet Bill article - if any of them should be split in their own article, it's the original Missile Bill, and even that is admittedly tenuous and would cause confusion), and to be clear, you mean Missile Bill and the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration to be the same thing? Also, to answer Alex95's question: it kind of goes both ways since going with localizations all the time can still be needlessly convoluted (for example, Sky Troopa when it's clearly a Koopa Paratroopa, Flospy Fish when Super Princess Peach calls it a Cheep Cheep, etc.). We're not factoring the Japanese names just because they're Japanese, but because it happens to be the language of origin the majority of the time, which is the case for Bull's-Eye Bill. The same treatment should be expected for Western developers. That said, name changes can still happen over time, but at least it's not due to translation differences, which is the most common reason. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:01, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty, "I think it's safe to assume the "split Purple Bullet Bill" options would be unpopular and if anything could merge with the Bullet Bill article", what about Guided Bullet Bill? -- FanOfYoshi 13:25, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

I honestly think that should be a separate issue since we already have enough "proto-Bull's-Eye Bills", though I'd say that if Purple Bullet Bill merges with Bullet Bill then it makes sense to do the same to Guided Bullet Bill. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:29, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Since that was being asked elsewhere, if a proposal were to be made, I don't think it makes sense to go into combinatorics, it would be just Split the predecessors and Do nothing. We either want this page to deal exclusively with the Bull's Eye Bills that were introduced with New Super Mario Bros. Wii or we want to cover their predecessors as well, at which point it makes little sense to include some but not others (the Mario Party 8 red Bullet Bills don't need the proposal, someone with knowledge of the game can just merge them already in the appropriate page).
In any case, unless someone else comes up supporting the idea to be stricter in the coverage of this page, I think the proposal would be overkill, at best I can just group the enemies that came before in the Predecessors section and that's it.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:38, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

I believe we might be able to reach a middle ground between moving all and moving none (again, I feel that about-facing is somewhat unique behavior that can potentially return as its own Bullet Bill variant separate from modern homing ones), but if the specifics on that are going nowhere then maybe an "all or nothing" situation is needed in order to proceed. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:07, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

I think having a "predecessors" section would be overkill, I think we can just say "New Super Mario Bros. Wii introduced the modern Bull's-Eye Bill." Also worth noting is the situation it appeared at in NSMBW, being unique to a bonus level lacking the "normal" Bullet Bills, and unlike SMA3, being the main feature of said level. In SMB3 and SMS, they appeared alongside normal Bullet Bills, so treating them as a simple color variation was additionally more convenient at the time. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:52, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

How would it be overkill? -- FanOfYoshi 18:36, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Determine how to reorganize this page

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

canceled by proposer
So, given the above discussion, i'd like to open this proposal. This will determine how to reorganize this page. While most sources consider Missile Bill being the same as Bullet Bill, just with a different behavior (A Big Bertha/Boss Bass situation obviously), the Zen Hyakka treats them as a separate entity. 往復キラー "Oufuku Killer", which, for future references, does the same with Porcupuffer, which explicitly states that it is a Cheep Cheep, which no guide has done before, besides the Daizukan. The Purple Bullet Bill is キラー(紫) "Killer (murasaki)", which confirms them to be a separate entity. We have Guided Bullet Bill split, so why not this one? The Yoshi's Island homing ones that disappear after a couple of second are considered as a color variant, which while it did the same for the Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō, the latter two were more obvious to be definitely based off of each other.

Option 1: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same.

Option 2: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same, while the Yoshi's Island will be treated as a color variant.

Option 3: Missile Bill will be considered to be a separate entity entirely, while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same as Bull's-Eye Bill, and the Yoshi's Island one will be treated as a color variant.

Option 4: Missile Bill will be the only to be considered to be a separate entity.

Option 5: Purple Bullet Bill will be the only to be considered to be a separate entity.

Option 6: Missile Bill will be considered to be just a Bullet Bill with a different behavior.

Option 7: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be separate entities, while the Yoshi's Island iteration will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill

Option 8: Missile Bill and those Yoshi's Island red Bullet Bills will be considered to be color variation, while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 9: Missile Bill will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill, while Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be a separate entity, and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 10: Missile Bill and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the same thing while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 11: Missile Bill will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill, Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be a separate entity entirely, and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill as well.

Option 12: Literally that as well.

Proposer: FanOfYoshi (talk)

Deadline: June 7, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Split both Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill into two separate articles

1. HEROMARIO (talk) Well, why are they here????

Don't do anything

1. Alex95 (talk) - First of all: ...Wow. Second: Every instance on the article feels like a Missile Bill to me. Even if they are named differently, the Purple Bullet Bills from Sunshine and the Biting Bullet Bills from Advance 3 still act like Missile Bills.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Alex95. I see no reason to split Missile Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill just because they've gone through a handful of Japanese names when they're obviously the same thing otherwise. Purple Bullet Bills, to me, are just Sunshine's weird variant of these guys, and I don't necessarily agree with the Guided Bullet Bill split. Finally, Missile Bills in Yoshi's Island are obviously a variant, since regular Bullet Bills actually do appear in that game, and it would be silly to merge them.
3. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
4. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per my thoughts in the abov section. They all have the concept of "homing Bullet Bill" and the "U-turn Killer" was solely used once in a guidebook and likely forgotten about.

Comments

I know what you will ask me. Is this proposal really approriate with that amount of options? Well, at least, there are less options than the frog proposal before it got cut down to 3 options. -- FanOfYoshi 03:49, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

...That's still too many. Don't just cram everything in one proposal, take it one step at a time. Mario JC 04:16, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, i guess you're right...
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by FanOfYoshi (talk).

In the scenario where Missile Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill are split, how do we account for the fact that Bull's-Eye Bill was known as Missile Bill prior to Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker? LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:12, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Prima's competence varies by guide. Remember the guide that called every type of big Bullet Bill "King Bill"? We can state that it is a mistranslation. -- FanOfYoshi 11:11, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

@Alex95, regarding your "Wow" part of your vote, yes. I'm aware that i added a little bit too much options, and i'm aware that this discussion hasn't been settled months ago. Also, out of curiosity, what names does it gives to those in Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 in the guide? -- FanOfYoshi 11:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

It doesn't give a name in Nintendo Power. 11:22, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick, what about your "if Missile Bill was spit, Purple Bullet Bill will be merged there" argument? -- FanOfYoshi 15:12, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

That's an if statement. I'd prefer it not be split at all, hence where I'm voting at this juncture. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Then, should i cancel the proposal to let out the above discussion play first, rather than rushing a proposal? -- FanOfYoshi 15:19, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Determine how to reorganize this page, take 2

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

do nothing 2-2-3-9
The discussion above has been going on for a ridiculous amount of time, and no consensus has been reached. In Japanese sources, the NSMBW Missile Bills are the first appearance of Missile Bills, while the ones from SMB3 and SMS are simple color variants there. However, in English sources, they're separate entities.

Proposer: TheDarkStar (talk)
Deadline: August 7, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Split all

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) Second option, pPer my thoughts above. Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heyho aren't a comparable situation, as they are from a Yoshi game, which reused many mechanics from the first game. And it was obvious enough that they were the same enemy I.E. a callback and not a coincidence, unlike Bull's-Eye Bill, which has an overlap with every iteration of chasing Bullet Bill. We don't know of which each iteration has been based off of. Also, agreed with SmokedChili. Additionally, if this proposal fails, the best thing to do would be to contact Nintendo about wether the Super Mario Bros. 3, Yoshi's Island, Super Mario Sunshine and current ones are based off of any, and which ones, if not coincidence. The Yoshi's Island iteration might be based off of the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration, but it is also possible that it is a coincidence The Purple Bullet Bill might be based off of one or the other, both, or is like them, coincidence. The modern one can only be a callback to the Super Mario Bros. 3, if not coincidence, which might have been intended to be a different enemy. IMO, the Biting Bullet Bill should never have been merged here, it should have been merged with Bullet Bill from the start of a proposal. If we knew about that.
2. SmokedChili (talk) Per my comments above and some more. First, the name "Missile Bill" came from the Nintendo Power guide, which also split Kyodai Pukupuku into "Boss Bass" and "Big Bertha", which are currently merged on this wiki, so there's basis for that. Second, technical limitations of NES are no excuse for Missile Bills simply switching directions once passing Mario, and no sprite rotation is needed for believable homing behavior when there's Boos chasing Mario as an example. Finally, there are no '"pre-split" Bulls-Eye Bills'; there are only Bullet Bills with homing abilities before Bulls-Eye Bill became its own thing to differentiate them from normal Bullet Bills when those don't chase Mario.

#LinkTheLefty (talk) Second option. While I personally agree least of all with splitting the Yoshi's Island red Bullet Bill as it is arguably most approximate to the modern Bull's-Eye Bill and just splitting Sunshine's Purple Bullet Bill and the original Missile Bill would be the bare minimum required to satisfy Super Mario Pia, this is the nearest available choice. Super Mario Pia is an admittedly imperfect product, but it only stating modern Bull's-Eye Bill appearances is the closest to an official statement we have on the matter and I don't see significant enough reasons to doubt this case at the moment, at least not to the extent of the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia.

Split only Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills

1. Niiue (talk) Per proposal.
2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per everything I have said above.

#TheDarkStar (talk) Yeah, this is probably the best option.
#Waluigi Time (talk) Per my thoughts in the above discussion. I see no reason to split any of the others.

Merge the SMB3 Bullet Bills to the Bullet Bill page

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) First option, per SmokedChili. While I am reluctant to split all "predecessors" of the modern Bull's-Eye Bill (particularly the ones that actually demonstrate a dynamic homing behavior), the Missile Bill from Super Mario Bros. 3 shows fairly unique behavior in that it performs an abrupt about-face action that is said to travel back and forth rather than what is described as homing. I'm well aware that this can be chalked up to technical limitations that later evolved into the version we see today; however, that is an educated guess and not necessarily the case, and I feel like this type of Bullet Bill can just as easily make a reappearance alongside Bull's-Eye Bill on any developer's whim.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Second option, per LinkTheLefty. The rest may still need revisiting, see Guided Bullet Bill.
3. SmokedChili (talk) Second option, per all for this. At the very least, SMB3 Missile Bills' turn-back behavior upon passing Mario is distinct from chasing Mario that the SM64 Bullet Bills first showed.

Do nothing

1. TheDarkStar (talk) Splitting any "blinky chasy homing bullet bills" from the "blinky chasy homing bullet bill" page simply because they have different Japanese names is beyond ridiculous.
2. Alex95 (talk) - Per my suggestions above. The only one I think that could justify a separate page would be the "Biting" Bullet Bill, but even that would be a stretch.
3. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per both.
4. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
5. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per everything I have said above.
6. Waluigi Time (talk) Per my thoughts in the above discussion. All of the off-model Bull's-Eye Bills come from games where lots of enemies were already off-model, and the SMB3 ones are way too similar to split. I personally still don't buy them being separate to begin with.
7. Niiue (talk) Per all.
8. Obsessive Mario Fan (talk) Per all.
9. LinkTheLefty (talk) Second option. While Super Mario Pia does not mention any appearance of Missile Bill / Bull's-Eye Bill earlier than New Super Mario Bros. Wii, it should be noted that its comprehensiveness in listing appearances is somewhat lacking overall. For example, Togepuku (Spiny Cheep Cheep) is not listed as appearing in "SML2" or "SMG" despite "SMG2" being mentioned, and the "giant" variants of Goomba and Piranha Plant from Super Mario Bros. 3 are also ignored (and the latter is apparently conflated with Big Fire Piranha from Super Mario 64) presumably due to the newer "big" name. Therefore, there is room to doubt this book, at least when it comes to its lists of appearances. Additionally, even if Bull's-Eye Bill's behavior was standardized with its name, there is a parallel to be made with Bull's-Eye Banzai's behavioral evolution, itself having limited homing capabilities before having much more dynamic range.

#FanOfYoshi (talk) Nope, i'd prefer it to be done without a proposal, as Mister Wu pointed out above, and as LinkTheLefty pointed out below.

Comments

I agree with keeping everything here, with the exception of Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills, and I think others who don't want this to be split into pieces would agree with me. Could this be added as an option? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:16, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Added. TheDarkStar 19:24, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

As Mister Wu mentioned, the Mario Party 8 oddity probably could have been easily handled before a proposal since it seemed like a clear-cut case and no one was objecting to it. Just for clarification, to "split only" mean to merge it into the main Bullet Bill article, right? LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:46, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Yes. TheDarkStar 21:06, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Technically, it was sorta a color variation in the English Sunshine guide, but I stand by my thoughts that the chasy ones from before are just a "pre-split" Bull's-Eye Bill (for Japan). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:11, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Like i said above, this one wouldn't need a proposal, and should be a standalone, with the proposal being only for the rest. -- FanOfYoshi 01:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Also, it would still need talk to, since we still have the others to treat. -- FanOfYoshi 04:01, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

@TheDarkStar "I don't see why a proposal would be necessary to split an enemy that doesn't even act like a Missile Bill." -- FanOfYoshi 04:05, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

The difference being that I was specifically asked to add the option. TheDarkStar 10:39, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

@SmokedChili Again I differ you to Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō, which clearly had "pre-split" versions. To only count the YNI versions of not prior in those cases is absurd. Why should this be any different? As for the sprite rotation thing, a bullet has to travel in the direction the pointy end is. Traveling upwards at a 78 degree angle while facing flat to the side would look really weird for pointed ammunition. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

I'm sorry, but the Mario Party 8 red Bullet Bills must be fixed immediately and taken out of proposal. They are not player-seeking Bullet Bills, have no reason to stay here and we can't bind their fate to a proposal over an actual disagreement, since a consensus was already reached. Proposals should never deal with decisions that already have a consensus, as the policy states.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:48, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Another separate point: Missile Bills is not used by Nintendo of America in its directly-produced material (manuals, in-game text et al.) to refer to the Search Killers, with them rather using the unique term Bull's Eye Bills, Missile Bills referred to Search Killers was used exclusively in the Prima guide of New Super Mario Wii. As such, the Missile Bills term used to generally refer to Bull's Eye Bills in all their appearances is misleading (and it would be against naming policy if it ended up in the main page).--Mister Wu (talk) 09:33, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Naming policy specifies how Prima (generally) stands in pre-Super Mario Galaxy guides, as Super Paper Mario is the last game in the Mario series to be covered by Nintendo Power, though I'd suggest replacing the "Split only Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills" option with "Split only Super Mario Bros. 3's Missile Bills" since SmokedChili raised some good points (and once again, Bullet Bills with that same behavior have room to return). LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:08, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

I was referring to the first appearance of Missile Bills, here Missile Bills is mentioned as a term referring to Search Killer in all the games it had appeared, due to that Prima guide, we don't have a single corresponding term for Search Killer, so we should be careful when wording proposals.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:13, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

I can't really remove the option, as that would be altering other users' comments. Four people have voted there already. I added it per request. TheDarkStar 10:34, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Mario Party 8 is overwhelmingly agreed upon, with the one "do nothing" vote being in favor of deciding through discussion rather than proposal, so I think you can use a <s>strikethrough</s>. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:37, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

I don't mean to literally put the Super Mario Bros. 3 option in its place, since they did not vote on it. Add the Super Mario Bros. 3 option as a separate header; Mario Party 8 just had no business here because it is simply not a point of contention with current info. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:49, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Done. TheDarkStar 10:51, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Thanks. That part of policy is not well known, this is why I made that first point, sorry if that sounded harsh.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:13, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Please take a look at current state of the article, as it groups non-Bull's-Eye Bill enemies into there, which might or might not be coincidentally similar to each other. Ukiki is probably a comparable situation. -- FanOfYoshi 12:17, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

No it's not, as those actually had behavioral differences. TheDarkStar 12:19, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

If this proposal fails, it might need revisiting at some point. -- FanOfYoshi 12:20, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Same could be said about any proposal. You don't need to bring this up just because you disagree with the direction it's going. Seriously, that's annoying. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:32, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty As I already said, the Sunshine purple Bullet Bill's behavior is essentially a 3D rendition of the SMB3 Missile Bill's behavior. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:01, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Could you add "Merge YISMA3 Bullet Bill to Bullet Bill", "Merge both SMB3 and YISMA3 Bullet Bills to Bullet Bill", and "Split Puprle Bullet Bill"? -- FanOfYoshi 09:01, July 26, 2019 (EDT)

In my opinion, six options is going a bit overboard. Merging Purple Bullet Bill would be unpopular, and therefore unnecessary. We don't need to go into "merge this thing, merge this other thing" types of options, since that may overwhelm people. The SMA3 Missile Bill is a homing red Bullet Bill, so it's likely to be unpopular as well. TheDarkStar 10:16, July 26, 2019 (EDT)

I meant split Purple Bullet Bill unto its own article. -- FanOfYoshi 10:19, July 26, 2019 (EDT)

Really, I'd more like for Guided Bullet Bill to be merged here. TheDarkStar 10:21, July 26, 2019 (EDT)

They're a subspecies, are slower, and can move in more angles than a Bull's-Eye Bill. That'd be like merging the Climbing Koopa with Koopa Troopa. -- FanOfYoshi 10:24, July 26, 2019 (EDT)

Last I checked, Bull's-Eye Bills could move in any angle, too. Speed decrease does not a split make. And no, Climbing Koopas actually act different from Koopas, in that they climb on fences. Biting Bullet Bill is just a Missile Bill that futilely tries to eat you. TheDarkStar 10:47, July 26, 2019 (EDT)

@TheDarkStar By your vote, it's also beyond ridiculous that SMG Bullet Bills are not on "blinky chasy homing bullet bill" page because they are "blinky chasy homing bullet bills" just with a different Japanese name.
@Doc von Schmeltwick You're making the case for believable homing on the NES more complicated than it is. I can think of three solutions myself. First, make additional sprites for up, down and diagonal positions for the Bills and have them change directions at 45 degrees to chase Mario, which is what I've seen done in Mega Man 5. Second, what I said earlier about changing altitude and using Boos as an example, doesn't have to be your exaggerated numbers like 72 degrees or whatever. Third, combine the two solutions with full Mario-seeking capacities and changing between the eight directional sprites depending on the angle. And no, purple Bullet Bill's turning around while actively chasing Mario isn't a 3D rendition of turning around upon passing Mario and keeping flying in one direction. What a few quotes we have from the Japanese books about SMB3 Missile Bills don't even talk about them chasing Mario. SmokedChili (talk) 05:55, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

While yes, that is possible, and I have sprited that very solution myself, it would be, say, a little OP given SMB3's gameplay. But that's just me. I still think it's a direct enough "ancestor" to the modern concept, sort of like Grinder and Ukiki. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:26, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

Thing is, the SMG Bullet Bill was referred to as such in all sources, unlike the Purple Bullet Bill and Biting Bullet Bill. It didn't continuously flash, and it was clearly a Bullet Bill. TheDarkStar 21:56, July 28, 2019 (EDT)

SMS Purple Bullet Bill is also clearly a Bullet Bill and didn't "flash" all the time, only when it starts seeking Mario, which is what SMG Bullet Bill does too. Besides, "Purple Bullet Bill" comes from a Prima guide where palette swaps have seemingly the color made a part of their name if the sourcing on this wiki is to be believed. So if anything, SMS Bullet Bill has an otherwise unspecified palette swap that targets Mario, while SMG Bullet Bill comes in one color that targets Mario. As for "Biting Bullet Bill", I don't know whether you made that up or if it comes from a guide, but given my stance on the localized YI names, I wouldn't be surprised if the writer(s) just took creative liberties with a color variant if the latter is true. SmokedChili (talk) 06:27, July 29, 2019 (EDT)

Regular Bullet Bills appear in SMS too, so by that logic, every variant of Bullet Bill is clearly a Bullet Bill. The regular Bullet Bills don't home in, Purple Bullet Bills do. Considering it just another Bullet Bill would be downright misleading, since regular Bullet Bills are in there too. I honestly don't know what source "Biting Bullet Bill" came from, but it's a logical name, given Bouncing Bullet Bill. It doesn't matter whether it was named in a Prima guide, since MarioWiki:Naming states that Prima guides are perfectly acceptable sources. TheDarkStar thinks Purple Bullet Bills are Missile Bills. 06:58, July 29, 2019 (EDT)

For clarification, "Biting Bullet Bill" was a conjectural name made up by the wiki in 2007 because they try to "eat Mario" (though not exactly true since other enemies from the game like Piranha Plant and Lunge Fish exhibit that behavior), and to confirm, the purple Bullet Bill, like the pink Boo, only have their colors capitalized in the Prima guide. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:42, July 29, 2019 (EDT)

Is it really misleading to call Purple Bullet Bill a Bullet Bill since that's essentially what available sources call it; Bullet Bill (of different color). No distinguishing names like Missile Bill or Bulls-Eye Bill. It's Bullet Bill that seeks Mario, compared to Bullet Bill that doesn't. SmokedChili (talk) 06:18, August 1, 2019 (EDT)

That's exactly it: the Purple Bullet Bills have behavioral differences from the regular Bullet Bills. Just because "Purple Bullet Bill" was from the Prima guide doesn't eternally disqualify it from being a name. "Purple Bullet Bill", despite its Prima-ness, is still a more name-like name than "Bullet Bill (purple)". Prima guides are valid sources, despite their many mess-ups. TheDarkStar 06:52, August 1, 2019 (EDT)

No, that's not "exactly it". As LinkTheLefty said, only the Prima guide capitalized the colors for the purple Bullet Bill and the pink Boo, and I presume this applies to the Electro-Koopas too. Taking "Purple Bullet Bill" at face value would ignore why this is the case; maybe the capitalized colors are just a stylistic choice on the writers' part. Given how everything else we have from internal names to other publications make the "Purple Bullet Bill" just Bullet Bill, there's thus more reason to move it to the Bullet Bill article than keep it on Bull's-Eye Bill's. After all, its treatment is that of a palette swap. SmokedChili (talk) 09:06, August 3, 2019 (EDT)

Here's what I think: Regular Bullet Bills appear in SMB3, SMA3 and SMS. In SMB3, the Bull's-Eye Bills move back toward Mario while regular Bullet Bills don't. Just because they don't flash before targeting doesn't mean merging with Bullet Bill. In SMA3, Bull's-Eye Bills are red and still function differently from regular Bullet Bills, still chasing the player unlike regular ones. As for SMS, the Purple Bullet Bills still home in on Mario. Pretty much every returning enemy has a different design and we keep their SMS appearance in the same article. I don't see why we should treat this one differently other than the slightly different name. We're also treating Gold Bullet Bills the same. --DeepFriedCabbage 16:42, July 27, 2019 (EDT)

Is the wording change ok on the page to make it look like less speculative about if they are the same or not in certain sections? -- FanOfYoshi 11:53, July 31, 2019 (EDT)

Since a complete agreement on that hasn't been reached, I think that could work for now. --DeepFriedCabbage 12:21, July 31, 2019 (EDT)

I see... -- FanOfYoshi 15:24, August 1, 2019 (EDT)

@TheDarkStar, like i said, Guided Bullet Bill is a subspecies, and not the same enemy. If anything, Guided Bullet Bill is a subspecies of Bullet Bill. Normal Bullet Bills also looked like that. -- FanOfYoshi 10:13, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

They look exactly like Purple Bullet Bill except for color. We’ve established countless times in the past that color variants shouldn’t be split solely because of the color. It makes no sense to refer to GBB as a subspecies of BB when it’s clearly a Purple BB. I’m pretty sure that the Bullet Bills in Sunshine didn’t have blinky noses, but I might be wrong. TheDarkStar 12:25, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

The regular ones didn't have blinky noses. Also, the Guided Bullet Bills are slower than the purple ones and are capable of moving up and down. --DeepFriedCabbage 12:31, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

Thanks. TheDarkStar 12:34, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

Also, Prima does treat Purple Bullet Bill differently, but so does it to the Electro-Koopas, namely red and blue, which have enough differences to be split. -- FanOfYoshi 12:54, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

”They treated another, clearly different species that do not behave in any way like any other enemy as a different species in a guide” is not a valid reason to split an article. TheDarkStar 13:18, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

I was mainly referring to SmokedChili. -- FanOfYoshi 13:23, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

OK, there seems to be a misunderstanding here. GBB don't really move "up and down" per se, it's more that they slowly descend as they actively follow Mario . PBB rises from is cannon, goes down an arc until it's right above the ground, and then acts as a more persistent version of the MB from SMB3, shooting forward in straight patterns and doing a thin u-turn when it's missed. Normal Bullet Bills, to compare, just go along that downward arc and hit the ground. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:06, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

Speaking of behavioral differences, I forgot something: Bull's-Eye Banzai (King Bill / Magnum Search Killer) originally had limited movement only homing up and down, and did not turn around, yet their modern appearance in Super Mario Maker 2 gives them the same range as Bull's-Eye Bill. Obviously, we consider the first appearance of it to be in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, but admittedly, this does give credence to the notion that Missile Bill simply had a design evolution over time despite lacking the current name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:25, August 7, 2019 (EDT)

I personally view it as an evolution that gradaully led to the current Bull's-Eye Bills, still there being an evolution that can be tracked back to those first Missile Bills in Super Mario Bros. 3 is something I agree with, and that evolution is still going on, as you correctly pointed out. Gameplay-related aspects in particular are constantly evolving.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:30, August 7, 2019 (EDT)

Huh, I thought I mentioned that, but I guess not.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:40, August 7, 2019 (EDT)

Thanks to Time Turner (talk), here are the names of the Purple Bullet Bills in the English guides that name them (the Nintendo Power guide doesn't):

Prima: "Purple Bullet Bills home in on your location." / "Special Purple Bullet Bills in Corona Mountain drop 1-Up Mushrooms."
BradyGames: "Bullet Bill: Purple Bills are guided." / "Chorobe fires black and purple Bullet Bills from the barrels of the cannon."
Versus: "There are three kinds of Bullet Bills: [...] "Purple ones intelligently hone in on you" / "If you seek Blue coins, wait behind the six baskets scattered around the level and let the Purple Bullet Blues destroy them for you. If it's Gold Coins you seek, hold your ground and use your Squirt Nozzle to destroy all the approaching Bullet Bills; even the Purple and Black ones yield two coins a pop. Splash a few of the cash-filled Yellow ones, and 100 Gold Coins, here we come."

The first Purple Bullet Blues is an actual typo of the Versus guide.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:16, August 7, 2019 (EDT)

Furthermore, I uploaded the scans of the entries of the Super Mario Sunshine Bullet Bill variants Template:Media link as well as Template:Media link. This is more for future reference, since a discussion over these Bullet Bills variants started here.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:30, August 7, 2019 (EDT)

So two guides distinguish it, with one mistankely calling it Purple Bullet Blue. -- FanOfYoshi 11:21, August 7, 2019 (EDT)

Biting Bullet Bill

Biting Bullet Bill slowly disappears after a while, instead of flying offscreen like the other Missile Bills. Should it be split into its own article? TheDarkStar 10:29, August 19, 2019 (EDT)

I don't think so, it's still a bitey-chasy homing Bullet Bill that targets the player. How it exits the screen isn't a big enough difference to consider them completely different. --DeepFriedCabbage 11:25, August 19, 2019 (EDT)

It's an unofficial name, perhaps merging it to Bullet Bill to counter the previous proposal that decided to merge it here? Since the wording has been changed i am neutral to the current state of the article, but still thinks about what i've wrote above. -- FanOfYoshi 12:53, August 19, 2019 (EDT)

It was it's own article, but I proposed to have it merged, and that went through. I stand by what I said then. Plenty of SMW2 enemy behavior had new behaviors added that didn't really stick around aside from the clones sequels, like the suddenly-growing and actually-carnivorous Piranha Plants. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:31, August 19, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, i don't necessarily disagree with it being here, but, the Japanese source treated as such. Like i said, my thoughts about current state is neutral, but i still stand my thoughts. -- FanOfYoshi 03:19, August 20, 2019 (EDT)

Determine how to reorganize SMB3 Bill

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Leave as-is 5-0-7
This is something that's been on my mind since this proposal. Simply put, with Purple Bullet Bill and Guided Bullet Bill merged back into Bullet Bill, it makes sense to focus on the Super Mario Bros. 3 Missile Bill. To recap, "Missile Bill" refers to both the early Super Mario Bros. 3 and the current New Super Mario Bros. Wii ones, which have different behavior; the former just performs one immediate 180° about-face when passing its target, whereas the latter curves and accurately homes in on its target and takes its time pulling off a full circle rotation. You could say that this is due to the limitation not showing off the its dynamic motion, but when the limitation or lack thereof changes how the player fundamentally interacts with it, at what point do you consider it the same thing? As far as Japanese sources go, it's been referred to as both an unnamed subtype (described as taking a U-turn) and 「往復おうふくキラー」(Ōfuku Kirā, Roundtrip Killer) in an older source; the English Mario Portal recently does not mention it. So for this proposal, I'm including two options: the first option is to split off Missile Bill entirely as its own article, with a note at the top of the page stating that it was also the initial name for Bull's-Eye Bill; the second option is to merge the Super Mario Bros. 3 content into the main Bullet Bill and turn Missile Bill into a disambiguation page ala Boss Bass / Big Bertha.

Note that I'm not including the red Yoshi's Island Bullet Bill for now because I feel that out of all of the pre-NSMBW ones, it's still the most analogous to modern Bull's-Eye Bill, its color counterpart did get fully split later on, and it almost undoubtedly would've been considered a full-fledged Bull's-Eye Bill had it made the cut in Yoshi's New Island.

Proposer: LinkTheLefty (talk)
Deadline: December 31, 2022, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 7, 2023, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 14, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Split Missile Bill (Super Mario Bros. 3)

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) My preference as I feel like this can easily make a reappearance separate from either sometime.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per proposal.
3. SmokedChili (talk) Per proposal.
4. Mister Wu (talk) The original Missile Bills never were homing Bullet Bills in the first place, and the Japanese guides, both modern and of the times, never pretended they were (which is why the names of the original Missile Bills found in them are different from Search Killer). While we might argue that this U turn behavior was the first test of a behavior that eventually became a proper homing behavior, that is mostly a reconstruction that we do and that might have some merit to it, but still isn't enough for the original Missile Bills to be stated that they were homing in the Japanese Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., to name a recent example (and mind you, the original Japanese one was written along with Nintendo, so it is nowhere near as problematic as its translations).
5. Blinker (talk) Per all.

#Hewer (talk) Per proposal, especially the point about it being distinguished in Japanese sources.

Leave Missile Bill (Super Mario Bros. 3) in Bull's-Eye Bill

1. Waluigi Time (talk) I don't see the value in splitting a flashing Bullet Bill that chases you called a Missile Bill from a flashing Bullet Bill that chases you called a Missile Bill. If the Japanese names were the same from the get-go this wouldn't even be brought up at all. Whether it's meant to be the exact same entity in SMB3 and NSMBW or not, it's similar enough to keep it all in one place.
2. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
3. Killer Moth (talk) Per Waluigi Time. I do not see the point in this.
4. LadySophie17 (talk) I believe they are the same enemy.
5. Somethingone (talk) - I honestly fail to see how this case is any different from Ukiki, who had a different English & Japanese name in their debut, was renamed in Japanese before it was renamed in English, & then when the newer English name came out nothing much had changed functionally or design-wise since then. If them being treated as a Bullet Bill variation in Japan only happened in SMB3 & Mario Portal listed them as a color variation of Bullet Bill via making Bullet Bull's image entry a mini-gallery & not just ignoring them entirely, then I would be in support of this. The difference between this and the SMS variation is that in Sunshine there were 2 other variations that also chased the player and none of the Bullet Bills in that game were red.
6. Swallow (talk) Per all
7. Hewer (talk) Since the main reason I was supporting turned out to be me not reading the proposal correctly, per all.

Comments

@Waluigi Time: To be fair, the New Super Mario Bros. Wii Prima guide is also the reason we're stuck with the King Bill confusion, and they evidently didn't get the memo about the Koopalings yet (and I forgot that modern Bull's-Eye Bill flashed since they don't do that outside Mario Party 9 and the New Super Mario Bros. games), though as I said, this proposal exists because the Purple/Guided Bullet Bill merge now makes this one stand out like a sore thumb in my opinion. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:05, December 18, 2022 (EST)

I feel like I might have misinterpreted something here - when you say Missile Bills were once identified as "an unnamed subtype", do you mean a subtype of standard Bullet Bill or of Bull's-Eye Bill? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:04, January 6, 2023 (EST)

A subtype of Bullet Bill, specifically; Bull's-Eye Bill doesn't have any subtypes unless you counted the Super Mario Sunshine colors, but that was another proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:30, January 6, 2023 (EST)

I'm personally puzzled how that changes anything. Mister Wu puts it well. Also, Boos from the same game will actively home in on you; Missile Bills just turn around once. Different behavior entirely. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:32, January 6, 2023 (EST)

It's about as homey as they could get on NES, since sprite rotation just plain isn't a thing on that level of processing power; ESMB/MP not even mentioning them makes this a bit more frustrating, though I want to point out how much the SMMSMB3 sprite resembles the red palette (minus flash) on the original SMB3. SMA3's also does u-turns, just with added rotation. I'm abstaining this round since I can see it go either way. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:36, January 6, 2023 (EST)

Why would Missile Bills need sprite rotation for more elaborate homing if Boos do just fine without? SmokedChili (talk) 03:46, January 7, 2023 (EST)

Same reason Boo's only slightly rotate to this day; they're floating ghosts. With ammunition rounds, you expect it to go the direction of the pointed end. It also is probably the reason Fire Chomp was faceless most of the time in SMB3, as that makes it appear more flexible. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:30, January 7, 2023 (EST)

Sounds like realism for the sake of realism. Boos didn't have sprite rotation or extra sprites back in the day and their movements worked fine with what they were limited to, so logically a homing Bullet Bill could achieve the same on NES. Just sprites for facing left and right and code them to seek Mario's current position. Like how Mask Gate works. SmokedChili (talk) 12:34, January 7, 2023 (EST)

For a bullet/missile, that's just off. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:49, January 7, 2023 (EST)

Couldn't they have used a different sprite if they really wanted to? Like, round off the back to have it resemble a cannonball, for example? LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:07, January 8, 2023 (EST)

To answer why this made me change my vote, the only reason I was supporting at first is because I thought the proposal said that a Japanese source once addressed Missile Bills as an unnamed subtype of Bull's-Eye Bills (i.e. a separate thing from Bull's-Eye Bills), though in hindsight I should've realised that wasn't the case sooner given we probably would already have split them if it was. That was the only point that convinced me as I think the others are just too speculative, so now I've opposed. I'm not really sure where this talk of homing and rotation came from, I don't remember ever mentioning that. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:49, January 7, 2023 (EST)

By "unnamed subtype" in Japanese sources, I mean that it was also just considered a Bullet Bill with alternate behavior, sort of like a color variant. It's cited as such in the article. Technically, the second option might be the least speculative, but it's also the least popular. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:11, January 7, 2023 (EST)

One question: if this passes, will Bull's-Eye Bill be considered a variant of Bullet Bill or of Missile Bill? Blinker (talk) 09:09, January 8, 2023 (EST)

Hmm, it's too late to specify that in the proposal, and same goes for what to do with Bull's-Eye Blaster, so these decisions will just have to be informal. If the first option passes, I'd be fine with considering Bull's-Eye Bill as either a variant or relative of Missile Bill. Bull's-Eye Blaster would probably necessarily have to be split as "Turtle Cannon (Missile Bill)" ala Torpedo Base (Targeting Ted). Open to other suggestions, though. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:26, January 8, 2023 (EST)

Sorry if I'm wrong, but shouldn't this proposal have failed already? There were 12 voters at the second deadline, half of which is 6, and 7 opposers. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:49, January 10, 2023 (EST)

Chinese Names

What's the official Chinese name of this? Ffffff (talk) 19:05, June 1, 2024 (EDT)

The name was added. --PhGuy12 (talk) 15:20, June 2, 2024 (EDT)