Talk:Fiery Dino Piranha (boss)

Merge to Dino Piranha or move to Dino Piranha (Black)

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Current time: Friday, November 22, 2024, 10:23 GMT

So from what I can gather, the "Fiery Dino Piranha" in the mission title wasn't actually intended to be a proper name for this boss; think "fiery Dino Piranha" rather than "Fiery Dino Piranha," so more "Dino Piranha except this time it's fiery" - this is backed up by the stage title's name in other languages, not to mention the creature's own. The PRIMA guide calling it "the Fiery Dino Piranha" is simply yet another example of them taking in-game text to its literal extreme. Addendum: The same goes for the trading cards, which mirror PRIMA's mistake on calling Kingfin "the Bonefin."

So, about this black, fiery Dino Piranha: as can be seen on [noclip.website], it shares its model with its Good Egg counterpart. All visual differences, from its colors to its petals, are a simple texture swap. The same goes for the two versions of King Kaliente in the same game. In fact, the two versions of each boss are differentiated in modern sources such as Mario Portal (which, unlike the PRIMA guide [Addendum: and the cards], was written first-party by Nintendo themselves) in the exact same manner - with the stronger, later one simply having a (Black) identifier.

Another important thing to note is that the purple Dino Piranha was given the black one's fiery abilities in one of the Mario & Sonic games, and that in the near-comprehensive (and completely comprehensive as far as the SMG games are concerned) list of Piranha Plants in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate lists Dino Piranha and Peewee Piranha but not a differentiated black/fiery version indicates that as far as the official word is concerned, these are interchangeable, with one just being harder.

Merging these will not only be consistent with the King Kalientes, but also the Hisstocrats, which were merged a while back as well for similar reasons. Regardless, I have included an option to move it to its Mario Portal name if people still want it split. If it is merged, the level name should be given the priority, so the history would probably be moved to a "boss" identifier redirect. Addendum: I wish to pursue the Gobblegut situation next.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: November 29, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Merge to Dino Piranha

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Packun Flowering Inferno
2. MarioComix (talk) - It seems crazy to make a change like this after 16 years, but it all makes sense. I suppose "Fiery Dino Piranha" would be mentioned as what it's been alternatively called (in the Trading Cards). Though I'm now curious where its French and Italian names come from, as they don't seem to come from the mission name.
3. DesaMatt (talk) - Per proposal. I don't think information from unofficial game guides should ever take priority if there's any kind of official first-party information on the matter.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) - It's the consistency with similar bosses that gives this the edge to me.
5. Blinker (talk) - Per all. Especially the comparison with King Kaliente. I'd like to add that the Fiery Dino Piranha and King Kaliente's Spicy Return missions have very similar Japanese (and French, I guess) titles.
6. Hewer (talk) Per all, especially the point about consistency with other bosses. Mario Portal shows Nintendo treats the Dino Piranhas as being just as separate from each other as the King Kalientes and Hisstocrats.
7. Somethingone (talk) Per proposal.
8. Remembered Old Buddy (talk) Per comments section
9. Arend (talk) This is consistent with how we treated King Kaliente and Motley Bossblob, who also have recolored, stronger versions in boss battles. Me voting for this option would also be consistent with my vote on Doc's proposal regarding Gobblegut. Heck, it would also be consistent with how we treated Hisstocrat, in which the pink female version is clearly a separate character from the original male one.
10. PaperSplash (talk) Per all.
11. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per all.

Move to "Dino Piranha (Black)"

1. Blinker (talk) - Second choice. If not the merge, than at least this.
2. Metalex123 (talk) - The official Nintendo website calls it "Dino Piranha (black)", separate from the regular Dino Piranha, and since Nintendo themselves is a better source than Prima Guides, I think moving this page to "Dino Piranha (black)" is a good idea.
3. Pseudo (talk) Secondary choice, as this is a newer but less descriptive name and I'm in support of keeping the pages split.

Keep it as-is

1. Camwoodstock (talk) So, uh, about "Firey Dino Piranha is not its intended name, and it's just an adjective in every context"... While it's dubious as to how authentic it is since it comes from part of the game's marketing, in the Super Mario Galaxy Trading Cards, they have a card for Fiery Dino Piranha. And on their card, they very plainly list the name as being "Fiery Dino Piranha", capital letters for all 3 words and all. It'd be one thing for a few errant guidebooks to get a name wrong, but officially licensed merchandise making the exact same mistake is... Improbable, to say the least. From there, the most we can think you can argue is that Viridi didn't mention them in her infamous guidance conversation in Smash Ultimate where she lists (almost) every Piranha Plant, but also she does say she hasn't even mentioned minor variations--probably to cover in the case Nintendo forgot any of them in her infodump, like what seems to have happened here.
2. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per.
3. PrincessPeachFan (talk) Yeah, these things are two different things. Dino Piranha gaining the ability to spit fireballs is so that it can do SOMETHING against four characters spinning into it.
4. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.
6. Alternis (talk) Per all.
7. Tails777 (talk) Per all.
8. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
9. Archivist Toadette (talk) Per all.
10. Pseudo (talk) While I do see the arguments here, this version is an eminently different boss in terms of appearance and gameplay (even if the models are shared), and, for what it's worth, are ontologically different entities considering that they're both seen hatching from eggs. Per Camwoodstock.
11. Mario (talk) The examples for King Kaliente, Hisstocrat, and Motely Bossblob are not ideal ones give they're strongly suggested to be rematches, supported by mission names (e.g. King Kaliente's spicy return, Hisstocrat returns, Motley Bossblob's encore) and trading card information ("you fight King Kaliente twice"). Fiery Dino Piranha doesn't have this same indication, and its only evidence for being the same character would be names in other languages... for the missions, but not the Fiery Dino Piranha itself who also has different names in other languages.

#Remembered Old Buddy (talk) I’d support if Gobblegut and Fiery Gobblegut are also separated, but the Gobbleguts are split because the fights are completely different.

Comments

@CamwoodStock Indeed, "minor variations" refers to things like non-speciated color variations, such as the green and red Piranhas in the Lost Levels and SMB3, or the Pale Piranhas, or these. Not to distinct species. Also, those cards also called Kingfin "the Bonefin," which is a known PRIMA mistake, so it's highly probable that the cards were made using the guide as a reference. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:43, November 15, 2023 (EST)

I would like to point out that PRIMA taking in-game text to its literal extreme isn't the only example. For instance, every strategy guide (such as Nintendo's) for Donkey Kong 64 calls Gnawties "Beavers" simply because that's what they're called in the game. Likewise, the online guides for Super Mario 64 call Klepto "Big Bird" and the Whomp King "Giant Whomp", so it's not like PRIMA has been doing this and even Nintendo's own strategy guides and websites have different names. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:58, November 15, 2023 (EST)

So because guides sometimes make mistakes, that means Prima's guide didn't make mistakes? I'm confused what point you're trying to make here. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:15, November 15, 2023 (EST)

As far as I remember, nothing that debuted from the same game was technically skipped, so she'll mention all the Piranha Plants from Galaxy and all the ones from Galaxy 2, but neglect Tane Pakkun because her list doesn't include Mario vs. Donkey Kong and thus that's a minor variation. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:25, November 15, 2023 (EST)

So, what about Gobblegut (Black)? Is that going to get one of these proposals as well? Blinker (talk) 09:39, November 15, 2023 (EST)

It still has a merge template up, so I assume the Doc's eyeing it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:56, November 15, 2023 (EST)

I was debating which to do first, I settled on this one. Note that noclip does display their models differently, unlike these and the Kalientes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:23, November 15, 2023 (EST)

@Remembered Old Buddy I haven't decided which to vote (not sure if I will at all), but I don't agree that the fights are "completely different". The Gobbleguts, along with the Dino Piranhas, both fight the same way and must be defeated the same way whereas the latter variant of each includes fire-based gimmicks. Nightwicked Bowser 12:16, November 15, 2023 (EST)

Don’t you need to use different strategies and approach the fire bosses in the same way? Remembered Old Buddy 15:15, November 15, 2023 (EST)

Strategy remains the same, the fire acts as simply an extra thing to watch out for, like the meteors and floor in Kaliente-2. Indeed, most of the difference in the fights for Dino, Kaliente, and Gobble involve the floor and things being less safe to touch compared to the first battle. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:49, November 15, 2023 (EST)

@Hewer: The point I was trying to make was that it seemed like PRIMA was the only one who made mistakes when it came to names. However, this has been happening with other strategy guides such as referring to enemies by generic names. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 14:26, November 16, 2023 (EST)

All you've done is reword your previous comment. That still doesn't tell me what point you are trying to make, what conclusion you are trying to reach. What are you getting at with this? Are you saying that the guide isn't incorrect because other completely unrelated guides are incorrect? Because I completely fail to understand the logic there. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:01, November 16, 2023 (EST)

But, regardless, these shouldn't be merged simply because 1. The name came off as a descriptor and 2. The model. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 14:26, November 16, 2023 (EST)

I don't understand what you mean? What name and what about the model? Blinker (talk) 15:00, November 16, 2023 (EST)

We're a bit confused by the model thing, but we think they mean that Fiery Dino Piranha has a stated name (albeit a shaky one, it still did appear in official merchandise but in-game it seems ambiguous), whereas Gobblegut (Black), King Kaliente (Black), and Hisstocrat (The Other One) have... well, parenthetical black, parenthetical black, and adjective we've forgotten, all of which are basically just conjectural names. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 17:15, November 16, 2023 (EST)

And so does Dino Piranha on Mario Portal. I don't think a shaky uncertain name that has more recently been ignored is a good reason to give Dino Piranha special treatment that Nintendo does not give it. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:01, November 16, 2023 (EST)

According to our naming guidelines, a name from a guidebook (both before and after Galaxy) and names from licensed media (like, say, the merchandise) take priority as valid names--see spots 2-3 for guidebooks and 4 for licensed media respectively. In fact, if we're interpreting this right and Dino Piranha (Black) is a name that came from the Mario Portal website, Dino Piranha (Black) would be 7th on the priority list--dead last, and below the English encyclopedia. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 19:25, November 16, 2023 (EST)

Incorrect. Level 7 is for image filenames on websites, which can only be seen by inspecting the HTML or saving an image from it. This is more akin to the guidebooks. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:32, November 16, 2023 (EST)

...Hmm. Now that you mention it, there is a very brief line on level 4, stating "This includes cartoons, movies, magazines, comics and web content."--which would technically tie it for the aforementioned card, as that's also licensed content. Of course, that doesn't really cover for the aforementioned guides that also apparently use the name, and are Levels 2 and 3 respectively, right above the mention of websites... Either way, there's no real way we can think of that the Mario Portal would change things unless the levels themselves were changed, which is kind of out of the scope for this proposal. ~Camwoodstock (talk)

Several pages have been moved or merged because Mario Portal gave them new names (e.g. Snufit being merged with Snift, plus Superstars replacing Snufits with Snifits in Space Land and Silver Chomp being called Homing Chomp) PrincessPeachFan (talk) 09:02, November 17, 2023 (EST)

Regarding Mario Portal's officialness, and sorry if this is kinda off-topic... There's a similar "portal" for the Pikmin series called Pikmin Garden, which featured "scientific names" for some creatures before the names were featured in game, which pretty much confirms that Nintendo was involved in making the Garden. And if that's true of Pikmin, it's probably also true of Mario. Not sure about the portal's English translation, but at least for the Japanese one, I think it makes sense to put it on a higher level than, you know, trading cards? Blinker (talk) 10:49, November 17, 2023 (EST)

Actually, you're probably onto something. The main point of contention here seems to be if websites should be a higher or lower priority than guidebooks, which they currently are no matter what way you slice it (content on websites themselves are level 4, whereas content only embedded in the website's data are level 7). We feel like this depends heavily on when the website was made (similarly to how we split guides based on if they released pre- or post-Galaxy), but also, like you alluded to, this is definitely getting way off topic for this proposal specifically. If we're planning on changing the name priority system, we should probably do that at another time. For now, though, with the priorities as they are, guides do take priority over websites overall, so make of that what you will. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:27, November 17, 2023 (EST)

Even if its name is Fiery Dino Piranha, why is that alone a reason not to merge it? It's still very inconsistent with Hisstocrat and King Kaliente (and soon likely Gobblegut as well), and even if the rules mean Mario Portal's name shouldn't be used here (which I'm a bit doubtful of given a bunch of pages were already moved because of it but I digress), it still shows that Nintendo treats Dino Piranha's variant the same as it treats those of the other bosses. Not to mention the point in the proposal that seems to have been ignored about how the regular Dino Piranha also used fireballs in Mario & Sonic. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 05:03, November 18, 2023 (EST)

@Metalex123: King Kaliente, Hisstocrat, and Gobblegut all have their alternate versions separate on Mario Portal as well, as King Kaliente (Black), Hisstocrat (pink), and Gobblegut (Black), respectively, but King Kaliente and Hisstocrat are merged with their variants anyway. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:38, November 17, 2023 (EST)