Talk:CD

Split off the Super Smash Bros. CDs and move them to the Smash items article

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

passed 8-5
There are two ways in which we can determine that these are clearly not officially considered the same thing.

Firstly, the trophies for the Super Smash Bros. CDs make no mention whatsoever of Wario Land 4, while for every other item they mention the game they originally come from - unless the item is original to Smash.

Secondly, the Japanese name of Wario Land 4's CDs, specifically marking them as Time CDs, as opposed to Smash's, which are simply "CDs".

Based on this, I don't think there's any reason for these two items to share an article.

Proposer: Ahemtoday (talk)
Deadline: July 11, 2023; 23:59 GMT Extended to July 18, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Ahemtoday (talk) Per proposal.
2. Hewer (talk) Per proposal.
3. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per proposal.
4. CoolNintendo (talk) The Wario Land 4 CDs are definitely not the same as the Smash Bros. CDs.
5. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
6. Wikiboy10 (talk) Japanese names differ.
7. MegaBowser64 (talk) Never even mattered that much, and trying to oppose this is too hard. White flags all around!
8. Camwoodstock (talk) - Per all. These two being merged feels a little weird considering we sure don't merge stuff like Brawl's Stickers with Sticker Star's Stickers. Begone, ancient piece of Wiki Jank™!

Oppose

1. Waluigi Time (talk) It's a generic real life object that behaves more or less how you'd expect it to in all of its appearances. I don't see a point splitting them.
2. Tails777 (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
3. Killer Moth (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
4. Pseudo (talk) Per all.
5. Arend (talk) While there's a point to be made that we have split things before based on their Japanese name, it's commonly due to their different functions or purposes. For the life of me, though, I don't understand what makes a Time CD different from a regular CD: I checked the Japanese website, and nowhere does it state any special, specific lore or certain requirements for why Time CDs are called Time CDs; all it states on the matter is that if you can find one, you can listen to it in the Sound Room... which isn't all too different from how CDs are portrayed in Smash. Or any other video game involving collectable CDs and sound rooms. In fact, I feel like this article should at the very least mention Wario Land: Shake It! as well, given that the music and movies in the Media Room are represented by CDs too.

#MegaBowser64 (talk) They're both CDs. They're both collected within a stage and can be played later. Per Waluigi Time, I don't see a point splitting them.

Comments

@CoolNintendo, does it matter if they are the exact same CDs? Baseballs are used in different games and contexts, but do we have separate articles for all of them? CDs are CDs. I understand your point of argument, but it just doesn't seem logical. BOWSER... (talk) 16:04, June 28, 2023 (EDT)

The difference is the Japanese name, which clearly indicates that the Wario Land 4 collectible is a specific thing and not a general subject. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:25, June 28, 2023 (EDT)

Maybe Time CDs are a specific kind of CD, but they're still CDs. I see where you're coming from, and maybe we should provide more distinction on the page, but I just don't think there's enough distinction overall to make two separate articles for two different kinds of CDs. This is unless, of course, you believe Time CDs aren't a specific kind of a more general CD at all but are instead a totally different object, not falling under the "CD" umbrella. We could have "Time CD" redirect to the "CD" page, but I don't really see anybody playing the Japanese version of Wario Land 4 and then translating the item name to English only to search for it on an English wiki. BOWSER... (talk) 19:53, June 28, 2023 (EDT)

So are Super Mushrooms, Dash Mushrooms, and/or Mushrooms the same item? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:43, June 29, 2023 (EDT)

Not at all. Notice each of the items you listed are obviously distinct from each other, and quite major. For me, the biggest reason to keep CD and Time CD on the same page is simply because both of them are fairly minor items. It isn't black and white on when groupings of very similar items on the same page become categories (such as Category:Mushrooms), but they do. My opinion is that there simply isn't enough distinction between these two minor items to warrant a separate page each. BOWSER... (talk) 11:40, June 29, 2023 (EDT)

Whether you think the items are minor or not absolutely shouldn't be an argument for merging or splitting pages - even besides the obvious subjectivity of it, it's irrelevant to whether the items are different or not, which is what splits and merges should be based on. Also, the goal of this proposal isn't to give them separate pages, it's to move the Smash Bros. one onto the list of Smash Bros. items. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:10, June 29, 2023 (EDT)

That may be true, but my final (and most unavoidable) point to make is that Time CDs are CDs, and thus should be on the "CD" page. Since you haven't stated that Time CDs are not CDs, you must come up with an explicit reason for two very similar types of the same object to be dispersed onto two unrelated pages, which I have not heard. BOWSER... (talk) 15:21, June 29, 2023 (EDT)

Except that I already did - I refer you once more to Super Mushroom, Dash Mushroom, and Mushroom. Dash Mushroom in particular is a very relevant comparison, as it was referred to as just Mushroom in several games. And for the "two unrelated pages" bit, we'll have an about template on the top linking to the Smash Bros. CD, if that's your concern. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:15, June 30, 2023 (EDT)

My point with bringing up the Japanese names is: we don't cover Beastballs on the Baseball (object) article. Maybe we would if they were called "Baseballs", but they're not. And when it comes to this wiki, it's not the English name that counts in terms of being the same or different. There's mountains of precedent for that, but the one foremost on my mind is the Chestnut King Ahemtoday (talk) 21:26, June 28, 2023 (EDT)

You have a very good point. However, in this particular instance, "Time CD" still contains "CD", implying it is a type of CD, not a separate but similar item. BOWSER... (talk) 11:40, June 29, 2023 (EDT)

Japanese names are better used in addition to other points instead of being the sole deciding factor, and historically, covering things from an English-centric vs. Japanese-centric perspective has always been controversial. You could just as easily cite many proposals based on Japanese coverage that didn't pass - Yoshi's Island, Prince Froggy, and Bull's-Eye Bill had ones just this year. It's not something that can be used on a consistent basis - at least not without a major policy change - since the context surrounding each subject is going to be different.

In this case, the Japanese names being different is the only thing that this proposal has going for it. The Brawl devs most likely didn't have Wario Land 4 in mind when adding CDs, but at the end of the day, they're both collectibles based on a generic real life object that unlocks an in-game song when collected, and they share an English name. Since we already keep identical concepts that likely were thought of independently merged, I don't see any value in splitting these up. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:19, June 29, 2023 (EDT)

It's not the only thing - the Smash trophies don't make any mention of Wario Land 4 and treat the CDs as a Smash-original object. The Time CD name is evidence against them just being shared generic subjects. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 03:15, June 30, 2023 (EDT)

Like I said, I find it unlikely that they're meant to be the exact same CDs as the WL4 ones, but I'm also not too concerned about that because they're pretty much identical and we already keep subjects merged when developers independently come up with the same concept by coincidence. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:24, July 1, 2023 (EDT)

I do want to add that the wiki removed a lot of non-Mario Smash trophies, and sure, the CDs aren't considered a Wario thing, but they're also a fairly generic subject. The Smash barrels also aren't normally considered Mario-related, even though the games' Barrel Cannons are directly based on them and are considered a Donkey Kong element. So, I wouldn't put too much weight on whether Smash considers them the same or not. I don't think it's so much that they're wholly Smash-original as the subject is generic enough. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:52, July 9, 2023 (EDT)

What matters is that they're not the same as the Wario Land 4 CDs, which is suggested by the Japanese name of the latter. Your reasons to not trust how Smash treats it are pretty weak - I don't see what's so notable or unusual about Barrel Cannons being from Donkey Kong while normal barrels aren't, and the removal of the non-Mario trophies from the wiki has no bearing on them being official sources regarding the subjects they cover. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:21, July 11, 2023 (EDT)

@Hewer, what do you mean exactly in stating "they're not the same thing as the Wario Land 4 CDs"? Are you again suggesting that Wario Land 4 CDs are literally not CDs at all, or just that they are too unrelated to Smash CDs to be on the same page? If so, do you believe Smash CDs to be a specific type of CD, while Wario Land 4 CDs are a general object, or vice versa? Are you suggesting that they are just two completely unrelated objects that happen to share the word "CD" in their names? You cite the Japanese name as a reason for them being unrelated, yet does adding "Time" to the front of "CD" instantaneously sever its relation to standard "CDs"? I would very much like some context to this point you keep making. --BOWSER... (talk) 09:45, July 12, 2023 (EDT)

I don't know about Hewer, but personally I don't think the point you've been trying to make here, that WL4 CDs are CDs so we should cover them here, tracks. We haven't merged Bat (Thing) and Home-Run Bat even though they're both baseball bats. We don't cover Timers in the Stop Watch article even though they're both clocks that slow you down. Not to mention the many different Bumpers that all have their own articles because they're from different series. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:05, July 12, 2023 (EDT)

@MegaBowser64: Please stop fixating on the fact that they are both CDs, I never attempted to deny that they are both compact discs and to do so would be silly. What confuses me is why you keep acting like them both being CDs is a valid argument for putting them on the same page. What I mean when I say they're not the same thing is just that: the CDs of Smash and the CDs of Wario Land 4 are distinct items from each other, as proven by Smash blatantly referring to its CDs as original to Brawl and not considering Wario Land 4 as an appearance of them, plus the Japanese name difference too. I refer you a third time to Super Mushroom, Dash Mushroom, and Mushroom all being mushrooms that look identical and are sometimes named identically. If you need more examples of separate items based on the same real-life object, check out the subcategories of Category:Items. I genuinely have no idea what's hard to understand about this. And before someone says it, I am aware that the Smash CDs are essentially generic CDs, but we don't cover food on a page about all food items from the Mario franchise - it ultimately doesn't change my argument that they aren't the same CDs. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:42, July 12, 2023 (EDT)

Okay fine, I'll put an end to this and switch over my vote. I guess I started off on one side of the fence and never considered the other. --BOWSER... (talk) 19:09, July 12, 2023 (EDT)