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| <noinclude> | | <noinclude> |
| | ==Look for official English names== |
| | <See talk page.> |
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| ==Proposals== | | ==Proposals== |
| ===Remove categories and lists relating to allies=== | | ===Remove categories and lists relating to allies=== |
| Before going into the meat of the proposal, the issues of allies has been dicussed in the past [[Talk:List_of_allies|here]], [[forum:32955.0|here]], and [[forum:38932.0|here]]. Less bulldozer-y approaches have been suggested, but to be frank, none of them are particularly satisfactory for me. | | Before going into the meat of the proposal, the issues of allies has been discussed in the past [[Talk:List_of_allies|here]], [[mb:threads/32955|here]], and [[mb:threads/38932|here]]. Less bulldozer-y approaches have been suggested, but to be frank, none of them are particularly satisfactory for me. |
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| Simply put, I don't see the justification in having the [[List of allies]] and the various categories ([[:Category:Donkey Kong Allies|Donkey Kong]], [[:Category:Super Paper Mario Allies|Super Paper Mario]], [[:Category:Wario Allies|Wario]], [[:Category:Yoshi Allies|Yoshi]], and of course the main [[:Category:Allies|Allies]]). First, take into consideration the basic categories of the wiki: characters, enemies, items, levels, abilities, and so on. All of them are distinct from each other, and in turn, there should be no overlap between them. Measures have been taken to ensure this, with [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_47#Do_Something_With_Game-Specific_Species_Categories|one proposal]] ensuring that species occupy a separate space and [[Category_talk:Objects#Mutually_exclude_items_and_objects|a currently running proposal]] that is set to split items and objects. Now, take a look at the list of main categories outlined on [[MarioWiki:Categories#Placement_on_articles|MarioWiki:Categories]], and you'll notice that "allies" are also listed up there. This ends up colliding into the same issue faced by the items and objects: how can a category be considered the broadest category possible when, by definition as a subcategory, there exists something above it? All allies are necessarily either characters or species, so as is, there's an uncomfortable contradiction here. You might say that this is grounds to remove the allies from that list, but not to outright delete it, and I might have agreed if I didn't have other issues with the allies. | | Simply put, I don't see the justification in having the [[List of allies]] and the various categories ([[:Category:Donkey Kong Allies|Donkey Kong]], [[:Category:Super Paper Mario Allies|Super Paper Mario]], [[:Category:Wario Allies|Wario]], [[:Category:Yoshi Allies|Yoshi]], and of course the main [[:Category:Allies|Allies]]). First, take into consideration the basic categories of the wiki: characters, enemies, items, levels, abilities, and so on. All of them are distinct from each other, and in turn, there should be no overlap between them. Measures have been taken to ensure this, with [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/47#Do_Something_With_Game-Specific_Species_Categories|one proposal]] ensuring that species occupy a separate space and [[Category_talk:Objects#Mutually_exclude_items_and_objects|another proposal]] that split items and objects. Now, take a look at the list of main categories outlined on [[MarioWiki:Categories#Placement_on_articles|MarioWiki:Categories]], and you'll notice that "allies" are also listed up there. This ends up colliding into the same issue faced by the items and objects: how can a category be considered the broadest category possible when, by definition as a subcategory, there exists something above it? All allies are necessarily either characters or species, so as is, there's an uncomfortable contradiction here. You might say that this is grounds to remove the allies from that list, but not to outright delete it, and I might have agreed if I didn't have other issues with the allies. |
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| This is something that partially builds on the recent deletion of [[Category_talk:Heroes#Do_something_about_this_category|Category:Heroes]]: we don't have a definition for an ally in the slightest. [[List of allies]] says that it includes everyone that has "at one point or another stood against the various enemies", but that's laughably vague and entirely unapplicable to situations in which there aren't any enemies invovled. You might have a vague idea of which characters are and are not allies, but that idea almost certainly goes counter to everyone else's idea. Even then, our current implementation of the term "ally" is shaky at best and nonsensical at worst. To use the [[:Category:Yoshi Allies|Yoshi Allies]] category as an example, ''all of the playable characters'' are listed as allies. The actual people going on the adventure and doing all of the action are merely allies. If they're considered as allies because they help each other, is Mario an ally in every game he's in just because people help him? I could go on in this fashion: why is [[King Fret]] an ally when he's nothing more than a hostage, why is [[KP Pete]] an ally when he, at best, acts friendly with Mario and nothing more, why is [[Fire Mini Mario]] an ally when it's a ''form'' of the main playable character, why is [[Mad Scienstein]] an ally when most of his encounters feature him as a villain and he is only helpful to the player on a few occasions by happenstance (and not by his own volition, no less)? That last point also touches on another issue, with many of these completely varied characters and species being grouped together because of, at best, ''one'' of their actions, and these actions can vary wildly. Characters who act as nothing but roadblocks to the heroes for the vast majority of their appearances, such as [[Bowser Jr.]], get to be tagged as allies because of a single instance of helpfulness, and that just doesn't make sense to me (also, I can't even tell when Bowser Jr. is supposed to be an ally). There are echoes of [[Category_talk:Hostages#Delete_this_category|Category:Hostages]] in this: offbeat, tenuous connections are of little functional use to the wiki. | | This is something that partially builds on the deletion of [[Category_talk:Heroes#Do_something_about_this_category|Category:Heroes]]: we don't have a definition for an ally in the slightest. [[List of allies]] says that it includes everyone that has "at one point or another stood against the various enemies", but that's unhelpfully vague and entirely inapplicable to situations in which there aren't any enemies involved. You might have a sketchy idea of which characters are and are not allies, but that idea almost certainly goes counter to everyone else's idea. Even then, our current implementation of the term "ally" is shaky at best and nonsensical at worst. To use the [[:Category:Yoshi Allies|Yoshi Allies]] category as an example, ''all of the playable characters'' are listed as allies. The actual people going on the adventure and doing all of the action are merely allies. If they're considered as allies because they help each other, is Mario an ally in every game he's in just because people help him? I could go on in this fashion: why is [[King Fret]] an ally when he's nothing more than a hostage, why is [[KP Pete]] an ally when he, at best, acts friendly with Mario and nothing more, why is [[Fire Mini Mario]] an ally when it's a ''form'' of the main playable character, why is [[Mad Scienstein]] an ally when most of his encounters feature him as a villain and he is only helpful to the player on a few occasions by happenstance (and not by his own volition, no less)? That last point also touches on another issue, with many of these completely varied characters and species being grouped together because of, at best, ''one'' of their actions, and these actions can vary wildly. Characters who act as nothing but roadblocks to the heroes for the vast majority of their appearances, such as [[Bowser Jr.]], get to be tagged as allies because of a single instance of helpfulness, and that just doesn't make sense to me (as an aside, I can't even tell where Bowser Jr. acts as an ally). There are echoes of [[Category_talk:Hostages#Delete_this_category|Category:Hostages]] in this: offbeat, tenuous connections are of little functional use to the wiki. |
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| The idea of allies for the wiki is such a messy, ambiguous, easily muddled grouping that I don't think that any possible solution beyond nuking the entire concept of allies would be satisfactory. Even if ''somehow'', the community came together and unanimously decided on a rigorous definition for allies, what then? What value is there in grouping together characters and species with an arbitrary definition? What do I get from this that I don't get from other categories? What reason do I have to care about the fact that this one NPC gave Mario a couple of coins one time, especially to the point where it elevates them to a unique category? I'll be just as redundant as the category and say that there's no point in having them on the wiki. | | The idea of allies for the wiki is such a messy, ambiguous, easily muddled grouping that I don't think that any possible solution beyond nuking the entire concept of allies would be satisfactory. Even if somehow, the community came together and unanimously decided on a rigorous definition for allies, what then? What value is there in grouping together characters and species with an arbitrary definition? What do I get from this that I don't get from other categories? What reason do I have to care about the fact that this one NPC gave Mario some coins one time, especially to the point where it elevates them to a unique category? I'll be just as redundant as the allies and say that there's no point in having them on the wiki. |
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br> |
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| ====Comments==== | | ====Comments==== |
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| ===Make an exception for the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series in our coverage policy===
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| This proposal stems largely from [https://www.marioboards.com/index.php?topic=39608.0 a discussion thread] started by Blocky, and it's recommended to read that first.
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| If we wanted to change our current coverage of the ''[[Super Smash Bros. (series)|Super Smash Bros.]]'' series, our current [[MarioWiki:Coverage|coverage policy]] offers two logical options: the series is either a guest appearance or a crossover. Calling it a guest appearance is not that good: there are a notable amount of characters, locations, items, and other elements pulled directly from the ''Mario'' franchise, and it figures heavily into the ''Smash'' series' promotion, so it doesn't seem particularly right to say that the ''Mario'' content is on the same level as ''[[Captain Rainbow]]'' or ''[[SSX on Tour]]''. At the same time, however, calling it a crossover (which is the option that the wiki currently uses) isn't satisfying either: as much as the ''Mario'' content factors into the series, it doesn't take up a majority in the slightest, so it's disingenuous to treat it as if its content is equal in stature to ''[[Mario & Sonic (series)|Mario & Sonic]]'' or ''[[Fortune Street]]''. Keep in mind that, as a crossover, ''every'' single subject within the series should get an individual page, and there's a certain point where covering every single special move and assist trophy feels like it oversteps a boundary (which is to say nothing of [[smashwiki:the SmashWiki]] that already covers these subjects better than we ever could). The wiki already ''has'' made judgements about what content shouldn't be given individual pages, mainly with various stage elements, but that completely contradicts our existing policy.
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| If neither option available to us is acceptable, then what should we do? Simple: make a third option.
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| This proposal aims to add an exception to our coverage policy, essentially saying that the ''Smash'' series is neither a crossover nor a guest appearance, but something unique unto itself. If it is excluded from the other sections, then it would be entirely possible to come up with systematic changes that wouldn't involve broadly changing how every series is covered. Note that this proposal doesn't say ''what'' will change; it merely leaves the door open for changes in the first place. Discussions and proposals about the particulars can take place afterwards.
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| A draft of the proposed section can be found [[User:Time Turner/unfinished#MarioWiki:Coverage draft|at this link]].
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}} (with input from {{User|Superchao}})<br>
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| '''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "August 8, 2011, 23:59 GMT"]
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| ====Support====
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| #{{User|Time Turner}} Per proposal.
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| ====Oppose====
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| ====Comments====
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| ==MarioWiki:Coverage draft==
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| ===Crossovers===
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| [...]
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| ===''Super Smash Bros.'' series===
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| The ''[[Super Smash Bros. (series)|Super Smash Bros.]]'' series features representative characters, locations, and other elements from numerous Nintendo franchises, and the ''Mario'' franchise is notably present. Its games feature enough content from the ''Mario'' franchise that calling it a guest appearance is incorrect, but at the same time, it is not so comprehensive that it is a crossover. To avoid any lapses in our coverage, the series is deemed an exception to the standard coverage policy. This means that unlike crossovers, in which every element is given an individual article, and unlike guest appearances, in which only the game itself and uniquely ''Mario'' elements get individual articles, pages for the series are decided on a more particular basis.
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| ===Guest appearances===
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| [...]
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| ==SMR== | | ==SMR== |
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| </gallery> | | </gallery> |
| {{br}} | | {{br}} |
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| ==MTM Table==
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| {| class=sortable align=center width=100% cellspacing=0 border=1 cellpadding=3 style="text-align:center; border-collapse:collapse; font-family:Arial;"
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| |-
| |
| !width="40%"|Location
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| !width="30%"|Characters
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| !width="20%"|Items
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| !width="10%"|Game(s)
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| |-
| |
| |'''[[Mainz]]'''<br>1455 AD<br>[[File:Mainz MTMDX.png]]
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| |[[Johann Gutenberg]]<br>[[File:Johann Gutenberg MTMDX.png|166px]]<br>
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| [[File:Mainz leatherworker MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[File:Mainz librarian MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[File:Mainz scribe MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[File:Mainz metalworker MTMDX.png]]
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| |[[Metal Type]] – [[File:Metal Type MTMDX.png]]<br>
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|
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| [[Drumstick (Mario's Time Machine)|Drumstick]] – [[File:Drumstick MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Key (Mainz)|Key]] – [[File:Key Mainz MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Ladder (item)|Ladder]] – [[File:Ladder MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Tea Bag]] – [[File:Tea Bag MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| |SNES<br>PC
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| |-
| |
| |'''[[Novato]]'''<br>1994 AD<br>[[File:Novato MTMDX.png]]
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| |[[David Grenewetzki]]<br>[[File:David Grenewetzki MTMDX.png|166px]]<br>
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| [[Andrew Iverson]]<br>[[File:Andrew Iverson MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Don Lloyd]]<br>[[File:Don Lloyd MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Jeff Griffeath]]<br>[[File:Jeff Griffeath MTMDX.png]]<br>
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|
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| [[File:Novato QA MTMDX.png]]
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| |[[Floppy Disk]] – [[File:Floppy Disk MTMDX.png]]<br>
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|
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| [[Art File]] – [[File:Art File MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Bug Fix]] – [[File:Bug Fix MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Bug Report]] – [[File:Bug Report MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Script]] – [[File:Script MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| |PC
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| |}
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|
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| ==MTM Table (revised)==
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|
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| {| class=sortable align=center width=100% cellspacing=0 border=1 cellpadding=3 style="text-align:center; border-collapse:collapse; font-family:Arial;"
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| |-
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| !width="40%"|Location
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| !width="30%"|Characters
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| !width="20%"|Items
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| !width="10%"|Game(s)
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| |-
| |
| |'''[[Mainz]]'''<br>1455 AD<br>[[File:Mainz MTMDX.png|160px]]
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| |[[Johann Gutenberg]]
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| |[[Metal Type]] – [[File:Metal Type MTMDX.png]]<br>
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|
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| [[Drumstick (Mario's Time Machine)|Drumstick]] – [[File:Drumstick MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Key (Mainz)|Key]] – [[File:Key Mainz MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Ladder (item)|Ladder]] – [[File:Ladder MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Tea Bag]] – [[File:Tea Bag MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| |SNES<br>PC
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| |-
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| |'''[[Novato]]'''<br>1994 AD<br>[[File:Novato MTMDX.png|240px]]
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| |[[David Grenewetzki]]<br>
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| [[Andrew Iverson]]<br>
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| [[Don Lloyd]]<br>
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| [[Jeff Griffeath]]<br>
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|
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| |[[Floppy Disk]] – [[File:Floppy Disk MTMDX.png]]<br>
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|
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| [[Art File]] – [[File:Art File MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Bug Fix]] – [[File:Bug Fix MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Bug Report]] – [[File:Bug Report MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| [[Script]] – [[File:Script MTMDX.png]]<br>
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| |PC
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| |}
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|
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| ==DKC:TF==
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| '''Hazards'''
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| <gallery>
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| DKCTF Carnivorous Plantlife Prima.jpg|Carnivorous Plantlife
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| DKCTF Collapsible Wooden Platform Prima.jpg|Collapsible Wooden Platform
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| DKCTF Decaying Vine Prima.jpg|Decaying Vine
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| DKCTF Electrified Anemone Prima.jpg|Electrified Anemone
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| DKCTF Fire Floor Prima.jpg|Fire Floor
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| DKCTF Flaming Falling Totem Pole Prima.jpg|Flaming Falling Totem Pole
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| DKCTF Flaming Vine Prima.jpg|Flaming Vine
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| DKCTF Giant Spiked Nut Prima.jpg|Giant Spiked Nut
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| DKCTF Giant Underwater Fan Prima.jpg|Giant Underwater Fan
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| DKCTF Hanging TNT Prima.jpg|Hanging TNT
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| DKCTF Lightning Bolt Prima.jpg|Lightning Bolt
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| DKCTF Proximity Mine Prima.jpg|Proximity Mine
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| DKCTF Spiked Floor Prima.jpg|Spiked Floor
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| DKCTF Tornado Prima.jpg|Tornado
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| </gallery>
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| *Carnivorous Plantlife: "The local plantlife in Donkey Kong Country is aggressive, to put it plainly. These angry fellows are much like the tooth-toting carnivorous plants that sport platforms at their base. The main difference here is that these hungry plants do not help you access routes or gain entry to secret areas. They pretty much just want to devour your entire body whole."
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| *Collapsible Wooden Platforms: "These wood-plank platforms start to shiver and shake the second you step your hairy foot upon them. Be sure to take care of your business and make haste before the planks give way and you fall to your doom."
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| *Decaying Vines: "These vines at first sight can blend in with the regular structurally sound vines. At a closer look, they can be identified by the brown discoloring at the top of the vine. When you grab onto these vines, you will only have a limited time before they break under your intense weight. This is a grab-and-go situation, so grab hold of the vine and jump to the next before the old vine makes fools of the lot of you."
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| *Electrified Anemones: "While they look beautiful in the dark of the ocean, these will shock DK to the core. They hold items beneath them, and at first glance, you may not know how to defeat these anemones. Close by are smaller fish that will glow if you Corkscrew through their school, which will cause the anemone arms to retract finally allow you to access the items below."
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| *Fire Floor: "These fire floors can be identified by the hot coals burning just below the surface. The real danger is standing in one spot for too long, as that agitates the earth, allowing flames to come to the surface that will most certainly burn you. Usually there are Water Sacks around; throw them at the ground to extinguish the flames and create a much more safer walkway. "
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| *Flaming Falling Totem Poles: "These totem poles are intent on crushing the bananas out of you. They have a flaming core with fire that flickers out from the eye and mouth holes. Besides adding to the incredible tension, these are another hazard to keep you on your toes. Quickly jump back or roll forward to avoid a crushing defeat."
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| *Flaming Vines: "These vines look like the decaying vines, but they will immediately ignite and burn up rather quickly. Other vines will already be on fire when you approach. Extinguish them before climbing. These vines can also be connected to platforms, making it much simpler to quickly jump to safety. Remember to act swiftly and be light on your feet!"
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| *Giant Spiked Nuts: "A form of this type of hazard is introduced in the third island and will become a headache-inducing nuisance. These large spiked nuts drop from trees and roll towards you, with the intention of filling you full of holes. They cannot be destroyed by any means, so leap over the obstacles and continue on your way as best you can."
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| *Giant Underwater Fans: "The giant fans certainly make traversing through underwater levels difficult. In some instances, the current they produce is too powerful to Kong to swim through on his own. Grab Dixie Kong if you can and use her Ponytail Propeller move to easily pass through the strong currents."
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| *Hanging TNT: "This is quite simple really. Touch the dangling cluster of concentrated destruction to go BOOM! Avoid the dangling destruction and live to tell the tale."
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| *Lightning Bolts: "When you encounter lightning bolts, they may give you a hard time at first, but they can be avoided quite easily if you follow the pattern. Before the real shock comes from the main bolt, several lesser bolts will strike in quick succession; they are harmless. Use that time to run or roll past the strike zone before the actual bolt rains down on your parade."
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| *Proximity Mines: "The mines underwater pack a punch and will begin to time their detonation the closer you get. Some secret areas must be opened by the mines, so you may need to carefully draw near one to time the charge, then quickly swim away before it explodes. Remember that these mines eject pieces of shrapnel that will take a heart away if they come in contact with you, so be careful!"
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| *Spiked Floor: "Spiked floors can be a real pain in the buttocks—literally. The best way to traverse this hazard is to bring old man Cranky Kong along with you and pogo across the spikes with his cane. This will also help you access the items lying on the spikes and to get to hidden areas to collect Puzzle Pieces."
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| *Tornados: "These wind tunnels can either help or hinder your path to the end of the level. At times these tornados can launch you upward to access certain items, but get too close to an edge and the wonder of nature might just launch you like a rag doll. Tip: The trick to using the tornado to spring you forward is to jump into it at the very top of the funnel. Jumping into the lowest portion or the middle causes it to shoot you backward and possibly straight into harm’s way."
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|
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| ==SSB4 Images==
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| *[[Color TV-Game 15]]
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| *[[Nightmare]]
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| <hr>
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| *[[Barrel]]
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| *[[Crate]]
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| *[[Daybreak]]
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| *[[Dragoon]]
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| *[[Food]]
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| *[[Party Ball]]
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| *[[Rocket Belt]]
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| *[[Rolling Crate]]
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| *[[Springboard|Spring]]
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| *[[Team Healer]]
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| *[[Treasure chest]]
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| *[[Trophy]]
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| <hr>
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| *[[Clubberskull]]
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| *[[Cucco]]
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| *[[Fly Guy]]
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| *[[Glire]]
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| *[[Iridescent Glint Beetle]]
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| *[[Koopa Troopa]]
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| *[[Poppant]]
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| *[[Spiny]]
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|
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| ==Look for official English names==
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| <See talk page.>
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| </noinclude>
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Look for official English names
<See talk page.>
Proposals
Remove categories and lists relating to allies
Before going into the meat of the proposal, the issues of allies has been discussed in the past here, here, and here. Less bulldozer-y approaches have been suggested, but to be frank, none of them are particularly satisfactory for me.
Simply put, I don't see the justification in having the List of allies and the various categories (Donkey Kong, Super Paper Mario, Wario, Yoshi, and of course the main Allies). First, take into consideration the basic categories of the wiki: characters, enemies, items, levels, abilities, and so on. All of them are distinct from each other, and in turn, there should be no overlap between them. Measures have been taken to ensure this, with one proposal ensuring that species occupy a separate space and another proposal that split items and objects. Now, take a look at the list of main categories outlined on MarioWiki:Categories, and you'll notice that "allies" are also listed up there. This ends up colliding into the same issue faced by the items and objects: how can a category be considered the broadest category possible when, by definition as a subcategory, there exists something above it? All allies are necessarily either characters or species, so as is, there's an uncomfortable contradiction here. You might say that this is grounds to remove the allies from that list, but not to outright delete it, and I might have agreed if I didn't have other issues with the allies.
This is something that partially builds on the deletion of Category:Heroes: we don't have a definition for an ally in the slightest. List of allies says that it includes everyone that has "at one point or another stood against the various enemies", but that's unhelpfully vague and entirely inapplicable to situations in which there aren't any enemies involved. You might have a sketchy idea of which characters are and are not allies, but that idea almost certainly goes counter to everyone else's idea. Even then, our current implementation of the term "ally" is shaky at best and nonsensical at worst. To use the Yoshi Allies category as an example, all of the playable characters are listed as allies. The actual people going on the adventure and doing all of the action are merely allies. If they're considered as allies because they help each other, is Mario an ally in every game he's in just because people help him? I could go on in this fashion: why is King Fret an ally when he's nothing more than a hostage, why is KP Pete an ally when he, at best, acts friendly with Mario and nothing more, why is Fire Mini Mario an ally when it's a form of the main playable character, why is Mad Scienstein an ally when most of his encounters feature him as a villain and he is only helpful to the player on a few occasions by happenstance (and not by his own volition, no less)? That last point also touches on another issue, with many of these completely varied characters and species being grouped together because of, at best, one of their actions, and these actions can vary wildly. Characters who act as nothing but roadblocks to the heroes for the vast majority of their appearances, such as Bowser Jr., get to be tagged as allies because of a single instance of helpfulness, and that just doesn't make sense to me (as an aside, I can't even tell where Bowser Jr. acts as an ally). There are echoes of Category:Hostages in this: offbeat, tenuous connections are of little functional use to the wiki.
The idea of allies for the wiki is such a messy, ambiguous, easily muddled grouping that I don't think that any possible solution beyond nuking the entire concept of allies would be satisfactory. Even if somehow, the community came together and unanimously decided on a rigorous definition for allies, what then? What value is there in grouping together characters and species with an arbitrary definition? What do I get from this that I don't get from other categories? What reason do I have to care about the fact that this one NPC gave Mario some coins one time, especially to the point where it elevates them to a unique category? I'll be just as redundant as the allies and say that there's no point in having them on the wiki.
Proposer: Time Turner (talk)
Deadline: [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "August 8, 2011, 23:59 GMT"]
Support
- Time Turner (talk) Per proposal.
Oppose
SMR
World 1
World 2
World 3
World 4
World 5
World 6
