Talk:Bull's-Eye Bill

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article? Supermariofan14

I have no clue. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Then what shall we do? Supermariofan14

I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill? Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Fanmade?

How do you know if an image is fan made or not? Like the Missile Bill "artwork"? Technickal 19:01, 1 December 2011 (EST)

Well that was fan made for sure. I made it, I changed the Bullet Bills color to red, that is it. If they are from Fantendo they are fan made.YoshiGo99

Truth

Has it ever actually been confirmed that the purple Bullet Bills in Super Mario Sunshine are in fact Missile Bills? The Nintendo Power guide just refers to them as "Bullet Bills". Vent (talk) 10:15, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

In Bowser's battle they follow you.YoshiGo99

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article? Supermariofan14

I have no clue. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Then what shall we do? Supermariofan14

I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill? Hello, I'm Time Turner.

They follow you, but unless we have a source that specifically says that they're Missile Bills, then they're not Missile Bills. Vent (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2013 (EST)

Official or conjectural ?

How is this name conjectural ? It is said that the Prima guide gave them an official name.
Banon (talk · edits) 11:08, 22 December 2012 (EST)

This page has {{part conjecture}}, not {{Conjecture}}.--File:NSMBWIIEJr.png BowserJunior RULES! 19:21, 1 January 2013 (EST)

FTR, that means that it has been given an official name in one appearance, but unnamed in another.

Shokora (talk · edits) 19:27, 1 January 2013 (EST)

Ok, I never understood this template until now.
Banon (talk · edits) 07:09, 2 January 2013 (EST)

Missile Bill is the real name?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM At minute 1:30 is called Bull's Eye-Bill. Is the official name of Missile Bill or a different enemy?--Sonic98 (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Missile Bill is the offical name alright, if it wasn't this would have a conjectural template on it. That Youtuber probably just likes calling it that, like sometimes I call Koopa Troopas "Turtles". ~~ Boo4761 But if it's an official trailer ...--Sonic98 (talk) 13:05, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

It could be an updated name, but I'd say wait until the game is out and there's more info since it could change before release. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:28, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker trailer by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s

As far as I know, "Missile Bill" was only used in a Nintendo Power strategy guide ages ago. It's clear that the enemy has been renamed.

Proposer: Aokage (talk)
Deadline: July 4, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Aokage (talk) Per proposal.

Comments

Rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." It's policy to move pages to their most recent name, so there's no need for this proposal. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Yeah, just rename it. - Walkazo 12:28, 20 June 2015 (EDT)

Alright then. Aokage (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2015 (EDT)

About that Citation Needed for Superstar Saga...

Over at TCRF, they do indeed have info on a raised bill blaster, though rather than saying they fire Bull's-Eye Bills, they instead make the connection that it resembles a Bombshell Bill from Paper Mario. I couldn't find any information as to if there was any name for either the raised bill blaster or its projectiles, though, so whether or not it's a Bombshell or a Bull's-Eye Bill remains to be a mystery. At any rate, though, that's where I'm assuming the data came from.

I'm not quite sure what to do with the article, though. Since it could also potentially be a Bombshell Bill, I feel hesitant to use it as our source, especially since the source makes that comparison, not the Bull's-Eye Bill one. I would make a vote, but that feels a bit too arbitrary for something like this. What do you guys think? ~Camwood777 (talk) 22:09, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

It's golden and from a stronger cannon, I'd say Bombshell would make the most sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:14, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

It seems to be graphical data, so I'd be wary of making a call - we don't call the unused yellow Cheep Cheeps from Super Mario Bros. 3 Eep Cheeps, after all. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

But see, official Eep Cheeps came after the ambiguous-Eep Cheep. And we do mention them. So it's a different situation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

We could just say the unused Bullet Bills are unnamed but have a color similarity to Bombshell Bills, kind of like we already do with Eep Cheeps. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

Should we base ourselves on the actual Bull's Eye Bills introduced in New super Mario Bros. Wii for this page?

This talk page or section has a conflict or question that needs to be answered. Please try to help and resolve the issue by leaving a comment.

Right now, we are grouping together either enemies that are just red Bullet Bills (Mario Party 8) or that are stated to be Bullet Bills, but behave like Bull's Eye Bills (Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Advance 3). As far as the latter cases are concerned, both the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. (on page 99), the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Sunshine and even internal data confirm that those of Super Mario Sunshine are just Killers (as far as internal data is concerned, those used in pinnaBeach1 are called killer, those used in coronaBoss are grouped under bathtubkiller). Same for those of Super Mario Bros. 3, with both the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario advance 4 as well as the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. explicitly mentioning the U turn abilities of some Killers in the descriptions. The same case is seen in Super Mario Advance 3, where the Nintendo Official Guidebook again groups them under Killers using the name Red Killers for the ones capable of following Yoshi. While it's highly likely that the Search Killers were based on those red Killers able to follow the player, I wonder if we should be more strict and just leave a mention of their predecessors in the introduction, considering how the properly distinguished Search Killers appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:15, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Then what should we do about Missile Bill (which technically wasn't necessarily "red" in its original appearance, just flashed to the player's palette, which in most cases would make it red)? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:09, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I agree to merge the Super Mario Bros 3 and Yoshi's Island to Bullet Bill. It is POSSIBLY a callback though for the New Super Mario Bros. Wii appearance. What should we do about Purple Bullet Bill? Should we merge it to Bullet Bill as well, or should it be on its own article? -- FanOfYoshi at 13:03, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I don't agree at all. While Pia lists only from NSMBW-onwards, it is based entirely around names things had at the time of the respective game, and as you pointed out, Mister Wu, there is a high probability that the writer simply wasn't made aware of name changes when doing whatever they did for research. While they were considered a Troopa-like color/behavior difference back in the day, so was Circling Boo Buddies, which Mario Maker has made objectively distinct name-wise, and it's certainly the same entity as the previously non-distinguished-in-Japanese thing. If anything, this leads more credence to the idea of merging Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp. Using guidebooks (and especially internal data) from before they were officially split to "prove" that they're the same as Bullet Bills is full of fallacy, as the name "Search Killer" and Japanese distinction didn't exist yet, which has no bearing on whether it does now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:06, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Disagree with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp. -- FanOfYoshi at 13:10, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Doesn't really matter here on how well that part's agreed with, that's the least important part of that comment. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, 6 March 2019 (EST)

"Early Japanese sources treated them as a simple color and behavioral variation of the generic Bullet Bill, akin to green and red Koopa Troopas, but began treating them as a fully-separate entity in New Super Mario Bros. Wii." Well, that's confusing and unhelpful. Looking at the merge/split templates on the the page and what info we have, I'm really not sure. We have Red and Green Koopa Troopas merged, yes, because they share the same name; though Brawl named them differently, Smash 4 gives them the color identifier. Maybe we should do that, give "Bullet Bill (red)" a page? 13:33, 6 March 2019 (EST)

How is that confusing? They called them Killers back then. Now they don't. They're a flashy chasy Bullet Bill, and as such this seems similar to the previous idea of renaming the monkey Grinder to "Ukiki (Yoshi's Island series)" a page before it was decided to just merge it to Ukiki, as Nintendo seemed to have done the same. Anyways, following this "using old sources to decide how we do articles for subjects that have been repurposed in some manner that conflicts with said old sources" logic, we might as well create individual articles for the "classic" Koopalings since they were Bowser's kids back then, and that's different from Nintendo's current interpretation too. But that idea is picky and rather asinine, isn't it? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:42, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Indeed, it wouldn't solve anything and just cause more confusion than there already is. ^(T|C) 13:56, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I'd like to remind you that hyperbole arguments make a certain impact, but are rather unhelpful for conversation. In this specific case, you chose a poor example, as each Koopaling had retained their Japanese name in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, this actually being one of the very few untouched aspects of them. It's basically the opposite case as the one we are seeing dealing with here, where we are assuming that subjects with different Japanese names are the same.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)

It was not intended as hyperbole, actually, as I was not referring to the specific set of changes, but more the general idea. Anyways, didn't Japanese SMM call Circling Boo Buddies "Teresa Clock" or something after they had previously just been identified as "Teresa?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:50, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Sorry then, it looked to me like an hyperbole, I don't know about the Japanese name in Super Mario Maker, do you know where it could be found?--Mister Wu (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

I could be misremembering something, admittedly. I assume that there is additionally a vocal thing in the JP release, perhaps a Japanese Youtube video of SMM would be a good way to confirm or deny. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:43, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Since I was asked, this is what I further found about the Bullet Bills in Super Mario Bros. 3 and about the Missile Bills:

• The Super Mario Zen Hyakka, a Shogakukan book written in collaboartion with Nintendo, in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, on page 192, mentioned the Ōfuku Killer(「往復キラー」, Round Trip Killer) in the bio of the Killer
• The Perfect Ban: Mario Character Daijiten on page 63 mentioned the ōfuku type in the bio of the Killer
• The Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Collection (in my case the 25th Anniversary of Super Mario Bros. version, but it's a reprint of the original one) on page 194 has a brief description of the Killer that, as usual for Nintendo Official Guidebooks, stresses their ability to cahnge trajectory in a few cases
• The Nintendo Power Strategy Guide of Super Mario bros. 3 introduces the Missile Bills stating Bullet Bills with a red hue will travel back and forth in search of their target
• The Prima guide of New Super Mario Bros. Wii names the Search Killer Missile Bill in the Basics/Pipe Cloggers section
• Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker gives a new English name to the Search Killer: Bull's Eye Bill', the current name of the page

At this point it's clear that there is conflicting infromation between Japanese names and North American localization, in a situation similar to that had with Big Bertha and Boss Bass, which are split in the Nintendo Power guide but not in the Japanese Nintendo Official Guidebooks, have one of the names repurposed for an enemy that has a different Japanese name, the latter of which eventually ends up having its own English name. I'd like to remind that keeping the enemies that are not named Search Killer in the History section has a precise implication: that those enemies are just Bull's Eye Bills that weren't yet renamed. This is why I want to reexamine the evidence, in particular because even if we ignore the different name given in the early character books, Nintendo in Japan rather considered the behavior of some Killers of Super Mario Bros. 3 that of changing direction or making a U-turn (or a round trip). Furthermore, the purple Bullet Bills of Super Mario Sunshine have homing capabilities, but not only the name, their appearance as well is different, with red not being among the colors of the Bullet Bills that follow Mario. In the case of Mario Party 8, the homing behavior reportedly isn't there, just the red color is that of Bull's Eye Bills. The one case that has similar behavior and appearance is that of Super Mario Advance 3, yet I wonder how much we are allowed to state that they are not-yet-renamed Bull's Eye Bills or rather the precursors on which the actual Bull's Eye Bills were based.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)

I have no idea what the case for Mario Party 8 is, but I will point out that the homing capabilities of the purple Bullet Bill only differ from than of the SMB3 enemy in that they don't give up. That is to say, they still make U-turns. The whole thing seems less a replacement on the concept and more a refining of the concept to me, combined with greater technical capabilities they wanted to take advantage of, as the NES wouldn't have been capable of the current behavior (particularly on a graphical level, as sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the SNES, and mass sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the Super FX chip), and the old "round-trip" name not being accurate for an that homes more freely. Anyways, if we are going to split Missile and Bull's-Eye Bill, I still feel that the purple Bullet Bill should go with the Missile Bill and not Bullet Bill, as they act far more similar than most Sunshine enemies and have a red flash, just limited to the nose. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:25, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Ahem... -- FanOfYoshi at 02:27, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Except that unlike that, the so-called "originals" never showed up again, unless you want to say that "Search Killer" was the SMW2 unused asset but not the SMB3 enemy. Even the SMM ones act like the NSMBW ones, with the SMB3-style SMM ones using colors near-identical to the color they flash to in small or super Mario is being played as in SMB3. Additionally, SMG Bats didn't even look like Swoops, while in this case, the only off-model appearance is from the game where every previously-used enemy was majorly off-model. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:25, 7 March 2019 (EST)

I meant to point out your comment in response to Camwood777's vote. -- FanOfYoshi at 04:52, 7 March 2019 (EST)

That was a year and a half ago. Anyways, the blinky red nose seems indicative of the blinky sometimes-red appearance in SMB3, and I had forgotten then just how similar their U-turning thing was. I suppose there's one other difference, in that the SMS ones explode rather spectacularly, but all Bills do in Sunshine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:01, 7 March 2019 (EST)

One can change their mind in the meantime. This is a complex matter, and since we don't work at Nintendo, we can't have a definitive answer on whether a renaming happened or not. I'm presently worried by the status of the page as it seems to put together enemies based on not so clear criteria (that's mainly due to Mario Party 8 that uses an appearance-based criterion, if someone has that game that part should be reviewed as soon as possible). I also think we're making bold claims right now in the History section, although we can't really fault anyone since it was the Prima guide that made that connection first and foremost. This is why I'm asking to see what we can do. Merging with the Bullet Bills page is a solution, I'm wondering if we can alter the page structure so that the inclusion of the previous Mario-seeking Bullet Bills is less of a claim that they are the same thing and more of an observation of how they are the likely predecessors of the Bull's Eye Bill(e.g. by adding a Possible/Likely predecessors section).--Mister Wu (talk) 08:06, 7 March 2019 (EST)

The internal names don't always add up - for example, the Bullet Bill in Super Mario Galaxy is "HomingKiller" internally, which more accurately describes the soon-to-be-named Bull's-Eye Bill. Also, we have another example of a Bullet Bill type previously being grouped together in Japanese sources but clearly separated more recently (Bouncing Bullet Bill). Though the Zen Hyakka information is new, so that could change things. If we do split Missle Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill, I also suggest leaving the red Bullet Bill from Yoshi's Island as Bull's-Eye Bill, as they are functionally the same thing and those book sources don't cover that game. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:32, 7 March 2019 (EST)

I personally disagree with that. I'd rather organize these Bullet Bill variants by using case-by-case analysis for each game and, based on that, decide if the variants will be merged with Bullet Bill article or split into their own. To explain how I'd intend this, Missle Bill would be either covered in Bullet Bill's SMB3 section or given its own article, Purple Bullet Bill would be covered in Sunshine section, and the red Bullet Bill in SMA3 section while the similarity to Bull's-Eye Bill would be noted. SmokedChili (talk) 09:03, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Why splitting the SMB3 information into its own article if it is considered to be the same thing? -- FanOfYoshi at 09:13, 7 March 2019 (EST)

We've one reference now, Super Mario Zen Hyakka, that gives the Super Mario Bros. 3 type a unique name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Do they disappear after a couple of seconds in YWW? -- FanOfYoshi at 10:00, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Judging from YouTube, no they don't, but this is again behavior refining, given the previous Yoshi appearance was in the super-secret last level of a GBA remake. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Is Ofuku intended to be taken as a proper noun or not? -- FanOfYoshi at 06:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Yes, Ōfuku Killer is in quotations, and the quote states that's what it's called. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:33, 8 March 2019 (EST)

I just checked YouTube, and in the MP8 minigame, all the Bills home in to a very limited extent. Moreso than Brawl, less so than most other "homing" depictions. It's more of a very wide curve. EDIT: It's most comparable to the ones in Super Mario 64, in that it's on a single plane like the "u-turn" ones, but without the u-turn itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:38, 8 March 2019 (EST)

It is additionally noteworthy, and related to the "Homing Killer" internal name above, that in Galaxy 2, some Bullet Bills home like in the first Galaxy, while others don't, and the only visual difference is that the homing ones briefly flash red eyes when they catch sight of the player. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Furthermore, it is worth noting that in some games, Bull's-Eye Bills act similar to the SM64 enemy, and that the Cat Bullet Bill (which dos so as well) is identified as a Search Killer internally (itself likely a Goropu-Indy situation). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:19, 10 March 2019 (EST)

A timeline on platform Bill homing:

• SMB3/SMA4-Missile Bill/"Ofuku Killer": Flashes different colors a la Invincible Mario (black, orange, and red in remakes), U-turns along a flat plane, gives up after a few turns
• SMW2/SMA3-"Red Killer": Solid red, biting animation, follows along all planes of movement, shrinks into nothingness after a while, is unused in original
• SM64/SM64DS-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, turns quickly and loosely on a flat plane
• SMS-Purple Bullet Bill/"Killer": Purple with red blinky nose, U-turns along a flat plane, persistent
• SMG-Bullet Bill/"<Homing> Killer": Black with red eye flash upon detection, follows along all planes of movement upon detection
• NSMBW-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Red with slight glow, follows along all planes of movement
• SMG2-Bullet Bill/"<Homing> Killer": Same as SMG
• NSMBU-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBU
• SM3DW-Cat Bullet Bill/"Neko Killer/Search Killer": Is a cat, follows quickly and semi-accurately along flat plane
• CTTT-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along flat plane (apparently, I don't actually have this game)
• SMM-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along all planes of movement, SMB3 style looks like the shade Missile Bill flashes to if Small or Super Mario.
• YWW-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red, follows along all planes of movement
• SMR-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBW
• SMO-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, follows slowly and accurately along flat plane

-Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2019 (EST)

Thanks, this is very usfeul as a summary, by the way, it is confirmed that in Super Mario 3D World the Cat Bullet Bill is known as Neko Killer in both the Nintendo Official Guidebook and the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., but its internal name is KillerSearch, way to go to confuse us... I won't be doing something in the short term anyway, so we have some time to clarify the main points and see if a proposal would be appropriate.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2019 (EDT)

A proposal would be appropriate. From what can i tell, this should work: The SMB3 enemy should be split due to that different Japanese name. The Purple Bullet Bill is sufficiently unique. The Yoshi's Island thing should be merged to Bullet Bill as it is a more complicated case than Bouncing Bullet Bill. Since none of us work for Nintendo, we don't have definitive answers right now, so, maybe contacting them? (no that's a dumb idea) -- FanOfYoshi at 04:22, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Purple Bullet Bill acts almost exactly like SMB3 Missile Bill, so if Missile Bill were to be split I personally would advocate for it to remain in the same article as it, as it can be inferred to be intended as the same entity du to said behavioral similarities. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:47, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

The Neko/Search Killer thing is likely a similar case to Ugan being identified as Unbaba in files initially, ie likely intended as that on the outset of its programming into the game before evolving into a distinct entity during development. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:53, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Additionally "Purple Bullet Bill" almost matches with its Japanese name "Killer (murasaki)". They're possibly intended to be one of the 4 variants in the game. Again, we don't have definitive answers. -- FanOfYoshi at 04:58, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Regardless, behaviorally, it seems to be intended to invoke Missile Bill, and in fact is a lot closer to the source in behavior than most other of the game's enemies. I'll additionally point out that there seems to have only been one guide that used "Ofuku Killer," with the rest just lumping them with normal Killers. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:40, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

It seems to invoke. There is no proof that this is a Missile Bill besides the behavior. Anyways, the similarity between the two can be noted rather than the two getting lumped in one page. -- FanOfYoshi at 09:58, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

It's a big "seems." They're more likely thee same than not. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:28, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

Again, we don't have definitive answers. What convinced you that they are the same? -- FanOfYoshi at 12:32, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

I've explained this again and again. "Ofuku Killer" was in a single guide, with the rest at the time lumping them with Killers. These act almost exactly the same in a game full of misfits, so them being lumped with normal Killers when the initial version was in most cases additionally lumped with normal Killers doesn't mean a thing. Furthermore, they blink. Saying that none of these are significant is just ignoring information. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:05, March 15, 2019 (EDT)

It's a complicated situation. -- FanOfYoshi at 06:58, April 30, 2019 (EDT)

While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration is potentially a callback to the previous iteration, the Purple Bullet Bill is more based on its color, rather than on its behavior. For the Purple Bullet Bill, compare it to Ice Snifits rather than Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō. What about the encyclopedia still grouping them together in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, while considering the Bull's-Eye Bill a different species? Yes, i'm aware that these iterations called them "Missile Bill", but that's because of Prima's incompetence. That says, i do want to know how LinkTheLefty wants to reorganize this page... -- FanOfYoshi at 10:10, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

What does purple bill even have to do with it... [-]€40 vv@(talk · edits) 10:32, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Ikr. I wouldn't recommand restarting another proposal immediately, as the below proposal has been cancelled to let out the discussion play first. -- FanOfYoshi at 10:37, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Excuse me, but how in Hell does "not calling them by a name that didn't exist yet and logically assuming that it's the same thing as before" qualify as "incompetence?" I think you're ovrstepping some boundaries here. I think "blinky homing Bullet Bill" is good enough of a specification, which Purple Bullet Bill qualifies for. It's not that they introduced a new enemy for NSMBW, they divergently evolved what was previously typically considered a color variation in Japan into a definitive separate entity, while it was already considered one in English. They may have some so because it was already considered different in English, I don't know. Bouncing Bullet Bill became its own thing later in Japan too iirc, and it's still definitely the same entity. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:55, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed, Prima is well known for their incompetence but calling them out as being "incompetent" for not using a name that didn't exist at the time, for a subject that's nearly identical and most likely intended to be the same, is ridiculous. There's no reason whatsoever to split the SMB3 Missile Bills from the ones that appeared in NSMBW onwards; we've established countless times that a different Japanese name alone does not instantly mean a split.-- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:58, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

The point was more about how we can't know for sure that they are the same thing instead of just precursors of what would then become a more consistent enemy in both name, appearance and features. I just feel that we should be more cautious on the "they are the same"; this however doesn't really need a split, we might just use some wording that explains how the current Bull's Eye Bills appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, with those coming before being labeled as "likely precursors" or something like that.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:36, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Oh, Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heiho aren't a comparable situation, as they appeared in a follow-up of a Yoshi game, within the Bullet Bill's design being more 1:1 to its main series design in this game. -- FanOfYoshi at 03:40, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

Like i said, Purple Bullet Bill is considered to be a purple variant of the Bullet Bill. While Guided Bullet Bill has got ahead, and got split, Purple Bullet Bill is more complicated than Guided Bullet Bill. While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration might be a callback to the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration, the Yoshi's Island iteration is a color variant, which, while Bouncing Bullet Bill returned in Yoshi's New Island, the red ones didn't, so it's too speculative to say for sure. The encyclopedia still have them in one entry in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, while the New Super Mario Bros. Wii onwards sections separates them from normal Bullet Bills -- FanOfYoshi at 11:14, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

It's a platforming game in the extended Mario franchise. It counts. Now, as for Purple, it was a blinky, chasy version of Bullet Bill, which made rapid u-turns. A blatant callback to the blinky, chasy version of the Bullet Bill that made u-turns in SMB3. I will not be moved on this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:35, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed. TheDarkStar 14:47, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

Also, nearly every returning enemy in Sunshine had a strange design, with the sole exception of Chain Chomps. Purple Bullet Bills and Bull's-Eye Bills are as similar to each other as regular Bullet Bills and the ones from Sunshine, Japanese name aside, which as I've said is not a good reason by itself to split. Splitting the Sunshine and Yoshi's Island Missile Bills on the basis of being different from the other Missile Bills, which ignores the fact that both of those games had odd Bullet Bill designs to begin with, and that some Japanese guides treated them as a color variant, is silly. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:34, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

I failed to notice that the proposal was canceled, so I’ll just say here that I agree with what has been said. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 16:45, May 26, 2019 (EDT)

I somehow agree with Mister Wu. -- FanOfYoshi at 09:57, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

For the record, I am open to only splitting the original about-facing ones from the later fully-homing ones in theory (although it could be explained as technical limitations), but in practice, having two "Missile Bill" subjects might be just as messy as the Boss Bass / Cheep Chomp situation. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:00, May 27, 2019 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty, what do you think about Purple Bullet Bill, since Guided Bullet Bill got ahead and got split? -- FanOfYoshi at 13:24, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

Guided Bullet Bill itself refers to two colors of its own: blue and black (which, for whatever reason, doesn't look accounted for in Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.). Purple Bullet Bill is the closer analogue to Bull's-Eye Bill since it has no special characteristics besides homing. Anyway, after the name for the Guided Bullet Bills was found, it seemed a bit forced to have both them and Purple Bullet Bill in the same article. I know that these are deemed color variations in Encyclopedia, but as Bouncing Bullet Bill demonstrates, there are instances where color variations become named. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:15, May 28, 2019 (EDT)

The only logical thing to do is to contact Nintendo JP to ask to them what of which are based of off, and/or if it's indeed a reappearance, or a new enemy. No, that's a bad idea, isn't it? I call Prima incompetent, because they were incompetent enough not to recognize that it was a new enemy, than a returning enemy. If they recognized it to be a new enemy, they'd give them another name. Red/blinking chasing concept isn't enough to convince me that they are the same. @Doc von Schmeltwick, regarding the above, "I assume that there is additionally a vocal thing in the JP release, perhaps a Japanese Youtube video of SMM would be a good way to confirm or deny." They just use the english name of the subjects, like in the english version. Regarding my "What convinced you that they are the same", i was mainly referring to the Super Mario Bros. 3 Missile Bills and Purple Bullet Bills. That says, i do want to know which sections Mister Wu thinks should be affected. -- FanOfYoshi at 08:18, June 1, 2019 (EDT)

In what possible way would Prima be incompetent for looking at an identical enemy when the only thing differentiating them is the Japanese name and not labeling it as something entirely different? I'm sorry, but that logic is ridiculous. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:40, June 1, 2019 (EDT)

Out of curiosity, what are both the Bull's-Eye Bill and Bull's-Eye Banzai's internal filenames in New Super Mario Bros. Wii? Still, i wonder how Mister Wu intends this reorganization to be, and which sections he wants affected. -- FanOfYoshi at 07:36, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

They share the same model data as their non-homing counterparts in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:00, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

@FOY Please stop saying that. Mister Wu is not the God of Organization. Repeatedly saying that you wonder what he thinks over and over (particularly when he's already said) isn't going to magically make things different. Additionally, looking for file names in what in most cases is a texture swap in 3D games will not change much either. The fact of the matter is that attempting a split here is pointless and confusing, it's already written that they were initially considered a recolor in Japan (which is since rescinded) while thy were always different from Bullet Bill in the West, and that's pretty much what Mister Wu said. Not exactly, but pretty much. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:07, June 3, 2019 (EDT)

Maybe the Ice Snifit example is too complicated regarding the Purple Bullet Bill. How do you explain that we are reorganizing the blue Lava Bubble then? Same scenario, no? -- FanOfYoshi at 05:15, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

Not even remotely. One is a small variation that acts quite differently (SMG/2), another is a Troopa-esque color variation through and through (SPP), and another is literally a retexture with no other differences to speak of (SM3DW). With the example here, the behavior is mostly consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:58, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

Then what about the fact that it's on the same book that each section treats them differently? -- FanOfYoshi at 15:00, June 7, 2019 (EDT)

Maybe the blue Lava Bubble example is too complicated? -- FanOfYoshi at 07:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

Under those circumstances, i'd prefer to trust the Super Mario Pia over the Prima guide. Like i said above, how i'd intend this, the Super Mario Bros. 3 section should be merged with Bullet Bill due to Zen Hyakka being so far the only book to distinguish Missile Bill from Bullet Bill in a Japanese source, Purple Bullet Bill should be split into its own article, and the Yoshi's Island section should be merged with Bullet Bill as well. While it might be based off of one of the 3 previous iteration, we can't say for sure that they are still the same. Maybe it got replaced, maybe it's always the same, too many assumption are made to my taste. The encyclopedia was made 6 years after Search Killer was separate from Killer, and yet, each game section relies on what they were called in this game. How do you explain that Face block is getting merged with Stretch Block? Same scenario, no? -- FanOfYoshi at 08:30, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

Regarding the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. treatment in different sections: for the most part (with few exceptions like Keronpa Ball), each section treats the subject as it did in the source guide. That's why names tend to change depending on the section, and why certain things get their own listing in some sections and are grouped together in others (for example, Big Cheep Cheep only gets its own listing in the New Super Mario Bros. section despite similar-sized Big Deep Cheeps also appearing in the New Super Mario Bros. 2 section, as other sections group it together with Cheep Cheep). So when it comes to name changes, it's not helpful in drawing the line. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:46, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

Why do we have Guided Bullet Bill split if Purple Bullet Bill is not split? -- FanOfYoshi at 06:57, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

A: That was done without discussion; B: This is an exact analogue to the prior enemy, complete with blinking. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:07, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

Since I had not done anything for so long about the discussion and the page, I updated the text so that it simply matches what we know about them as well as the introductory paragraph, without ignoring the English name - that we have to report anyway - as well as the Japanese name in the case of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, technically the first game to use the Bull's Eye Bills. I assume that Mario Party 9 uses the Bull's Eye Bills from New Super Mario Bros. Wii - I kept the Missile Bills name since Bull's Eye Bills was yet to be introduced -, please correct that part if they are actually different Mario-seeking Bullet Bills.
This is a bit of the idea I had in mind, I'm not sure if we're still conveying the right message to the reader who just quickly visits the page, but hopefully for the reader who actually reads the paragraphs this might give a clearer idea, with less unneeded assumptions.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:32, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

Regarding the Big Cheep Cheep, it might just be a mistake. -- FanOfYoshi at 15:29, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

Fine by me. Regarding that you changed the wordings on the page. Out of curiosity, does the Golden Bullet Bill chases the player? -- FanOfYoshi at 09:31, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

In Sunshine? No, it acts like a normal Bill in that game except it releases a ring of coins instead of just one if it's sprayed before hitting the ground. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:29, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

Kaitensuru Hono was split without any discussion. Same scenario, no? -- FanOfYoshi at 10:42, June 24, 2019 (EDT)

Not even remotely, as one is a bloody fireball and due to the overlapping development periods by different teams the similarity could easily be coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:50, June 24, 2019 (EDT)

So, if i get this right, we're only 4 people to agree with changing anything, one that prefers a more case-by-case basis (SmokedChili), and 6 to disagree on changing anything? -- FanOfYoshi at 13:49, June 25, 2019 (EDT)

A proper vote hasn't been made, so we don't know about what the other people outside of this discussion would vote. The point of this discussion isn't seeing the numbers, but rather understanding if there are problems and what are the possible improvements that can be made.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:38, June 25, 2019 (EDT)

My two cents: Given how SMB3 Missile Bills had an old guide give them a unique name from Bullet Bills vs. Encyclopedia SMB only mentioning them in Bullet Bill's description, I'd say their status as a separate enemy is debatable. And given how regular Bullet Bills have homing abilities in some games, along with flashing/blinking in some cases, attributing them to Bulls-Eye Bills, which appeared later, sounds like jumping into (hasty) conclusions. Sure, they flashed in NSMB, but aside from becoming red later, how is that significantly different from, say, Deep Cheeps adapting the green Cheep Cheep palette for themselves? B-E. Bill is specifically a homing type, B. Bill varies. That's why for now I think it would be for the best to mention only named Bulls-Eye Bill appearances (English and Japanese; NSMBWii - onwards) in the Bulls-Eye Bill article and move anything else to the Bullet Bill article. SmokedChili (talk) 13:13, June 27, 2019 (EDT)

So then how do you feel about Bouncing Bullet Bill? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:19, June 27, 2019 (EDT)

Same as Bulls-Eye; there's yellow bouncing Bullet Bills in Yoshi's Island and green Bullet Bills with unique Japanese name in Yoshi's New Island. Emphasis on Japanese name. SmokedChili (talk) 11:24, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

Barring the physics differences in the game engines, they are practically identical, and the color change is likely a throwback to ordinary Bullet Bills in the first game. Relay Heihō is in the same boat, and moving pre-New Island information to Boo Guy would be needlessly pedantic. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:46, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

I agree with LinkTheLefty. Like i said before, they're not a comparable situation, as, unlike Bull's-Eye Bill, they were similar enough to be based off of each other. Current situation is pretty much complicated, and is more confusing than if reorganized. -- FanOfYoshi at 08:42, June 29, 2019 (EDT)

Also, it's more easy to tell, since it's a Yoshi game with previous mechanics and enemies. -- FanOfYoshi at 05:58, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Here's my point of view.

• First, Purple Bullet Bill. It's a flashy homing Bullet Bill. I'd consider this different regularly, but looking at the remarkably off-model designs of most enemies, these are probably Missile Bills with a different design.
• SMB3 Missile Bills. Different Japanese name does not mean a split.
• Biting Bullet Bill. It's a red homing Bullet Bill, I think it can safely be considered a Missile Bill.
• Bouncing Bullet Bill. Their cannon aims at Yoshi, but the Bullet Bills themselves don't home in, so it's probably just a variation of Bullet Bill. It's been split already, and I think it should stay split.
• Bathtub Bullet Bill. It's a blinky homing Bullet Bill, it should be merged to Bull's-Eye Bill.

TheDarkStar 15:24, July 4, 2019 (EDT)

Bathtub ones? Do you mean the blue ones? Or the black one? I'd oppose both. -- FanOfYoshi at 12:16, July 5, 2019 (EDT)

Both. TheDarkStar 12:20, July 5, 2019 (EDT)

I'm giving my own two cents: While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration might have been based off of one of the previous iterations, we can't say for sure about which one it got based and which one is coincidental. Same for Purple Bullet Bill, which had the normal Bullet Bill chasing in two iterations, namely Super Mario Bros. 3 and Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3. Anyways, it's pretty clear to me that the Yoshi's New Island Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heyho are the same as the previous one, and it cannot be a coincidence, as it's a follow-up of a Yoshi game. If the Bull's-Eye Bill appeared in there, with disappearing after a few seconds, i'd have been convinced for the Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 iteration. -- FanOfYoshi at 09:50, July 7, 2019 (EDT)

Also, forgot to say... Under those circumstances, i'd prefer to trust the Super Mario Pia over Prima under a case-by-case basis. They were more competent than Prima to acknowledge that they properly first appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Regarding the "they were always considered to be separate from Bullet Bill in the West", actually no, that doesn't matter. Creator's intent, not Nintendo Power's mistake and/or Prima's incompetence. The distinction in the West doesn't matter an ounce. -- FanOfYoshi at 04:27, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Actually, yes it does matter, because this is an American wiki. You were already told that Prima was not incompetent to take an enemy from SMB3 and give it a logical name. Creator's intent changes often, and either way we can't read the creators' minds, so Missile Bill might now be a Nyan Taco. TheDarkStar 11:16, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, i'm aware that it's a logical name, but they didn't distinguish it from the previous iterations, and given the long gap, it's hard to tell wether they're still the same, replaced, or not based off of any iteration at all. -- FanOfYoshi at 11:19, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Well, if they didn't distinguish them from other iterations, then they could be based off any iteration of Missile Bill. TheDarkStar 11:41, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

@TheDarkStar, no, like i said, we don't know of which iteration it has been based off of. It could be based on 1, 2, or 3 iteration, but it is possible that it could even not have been based off of any. -- FanOfYoshi at 11:43, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

Well, since the SMB3 Missile Bills are the only iteration that flashes, the NSMBW Missile Bills are probably based off the SMB3 Missile Bills. TheDarkStar 12:06, July 9, 2019 (EDT)

Possibly, but we don't know wether it's still the same, or wether it's a replacement of the original. And do you mean just the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration? -- FanOfYoshi at 13:33, July 9, 2019 (EDT)

I mean it's probably based off the SMB3 Missile Bill in look, and based off Purple Bullet Bill or Biting Bullet Bill in behavior. It could even be based off all iterations. TheDarkStar 12:50, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

Excuse me, but how could it be based off of every iterations? -- FanOfYoshi at 12:55, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

It shares its blinkiness with the SMB3 iteration, and it shares its tenacity and homing behavior with the other two. TheDarkStar 13:01, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

Actually, it's due to less technical restrictions that it moves in every angle. The similarity with the other two could easily be a coincidence. -- FanOfYoshi at 13:17, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

(indent restart) That's exactly the case. The SMB3 Missile Bills only acted like they did due to technical restrictions, making it even more evident that these enemies are one and the same. TheDarkStar 13:33, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

I was specifically talking about the Yoshi's Island and Super Mario Sunshine ones. And no, we can't say for sure that they are the same, or if it is a replacement. Best to contact Nintendo. -- FanOfYoshi at 13:38, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

In fairness, are we sure that the original Missile Bills were supposed to be "homing" like the later ones? "Roundtrip" gives a specific idea that may not be the same as the eventual Bull's-Eye Bills. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:42, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

Given they only turn once they pass the player, I'd say that's pretty self-evident. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:53, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

Either way, a proposal would probably be necessary at this point. TheDarkStar 13:18, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

But then again, we can't say for sure wether it's still the same, or if it is a replacement of the original. Either way, better idea: Don't. Not only will it not pass given the margin of oppose votes right now (with people clearly not wanting to understand the situation), it'll just annoy people. -- FanOfYoshi at 13:23, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

That was completely unnecessary. There are no differences between the "blinky chasy Bullet Bill that u-turns", the "blinky purple chasy Bullet Bill", and the "red homing Bullet Bill". There is absolutely no reason to split these, and if a proposal was made, I'd oppose. Requesting admin input. TheDarkStar 13:48, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Ooh, ya almost had a point, then ya overstepped your boundaries by adding what was in the parentheses. I've half a mind to give you a courtesy reminder for that. I understand the situation perfectly, which is why I oppose splitting. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:53, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

If it helps at all, here. What was in the parentheses wasn't the first time this has happened. TheDarkStar 15:00, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

It's a complicated situation. It'd be best to start a proposal at this point. -- FanOfYoshi at 15:05, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Okay, there is a... lot here, and I lost the point of the discussion about partway through. A few of the sections have a split/merge template, so I'll point out each one in my opinion.

• Super Mario Bros. 3: This is kind of a "pre-Missile Bill", if you will. Certainly acts different than regular Bullet Bills, but still holds the same basic property of the later Bull's-Eye Bills: they follow the player. The Super Mario Advance 4 Nintendo Power Player's Guide does call these "Missile Bills", which means the section certainly belongs on this page.
• Super Mario Sunshine: The Purple Bullet Bills here, again, have the same basic property; only the visual style is different. The only real difference between these and regular Bull's-Eye Bills are they can be defeated by water, but that's a common weakness of most enemies in Sunshine, even returning ones. Because of the different name, visual style, and the fact that it functions in 3D space rather than 2D, it could have its own page if that's wanted, but it otherwise functions exactly the same as a Bull's-Eye Bill.
• Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3: This one's a little different. While they don't actually bite Yoshi and that is purely visual, they do have something different from the Bull's-Eye Bill: They vanish on screen. If a Bull's-Eye Bill misses Mario, it will simply keep going off-screen in the last direction it was moving in. Unfortunately, the Nintendo Power guide for SMA3 does not list a name, which the guide is terrible with anyway. It should not be merged with Bullet Bill, but I don't know if it should stay where it is, either.
• Mario Party 8: This one can be merged. Red with a speed increase, but it lacks the homing that makes a Bull's-Eye Bill what it is.

17:01, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Do we need to make another proposal? We've been talking in circles. -- FanOfYoshi at 17:14, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Also, since another section is suggested to be merged, i think there will be more options, and will over-complicate things. -- FanOfYoshi at 17:19, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

I would've hoped that discussion would've helped narrow down the options so it's not as overwhelming as the first proposal attempt. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:14, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

There's really only five potential options here; Split SMB3 Missile Bill, which would be ridiculous since it's called Missile Bill in a guide, split Purple Bullet Bill, split Biting Bullet Bill, split everything, and do nothing. I'd support doing nothing. TheDarkStar 18:26, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

This seems way too complicated to accurately put into a proposal (see below). The only one I can see that really needs the suggested change is the Mario Party 8 info. 18:32, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

A precisation: the Missile Bill name is a North American thing, in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Advance 4 (the first Nintendo Official Guidebook covering them) they are not split from the Bullet Bills and they are stated to be able to make U-turns, both these aspects are retained in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.(with this name I mean the Japanese one, not its translation). Earlier official Japanese sources talked about the roundtrip capabilities of them and again kept them with Bullet Bills, but U-turn was the term that subseded roundtrip in the official guides. The New Super Mario Bros. Wii Bull's Eye Bill is a separate enemy known as Search Killer. This is the first time said term is used, and this enemy is indeed the first case of the Bull's Eye Bill we currently know. The original Missile Bills were a split that has never been officially acknowledged in Japan and the explicit connection through name sharing between said Missile Bills and the Bull's Eye Bills was not made by the developers, but rather by Prima Games.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:07, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

At the time. That does not mean they can't be the same thing from before, it's just divergent evolution of concepts, in a similar vein to how Beanerang Bro was originally an odd Boomerang Bro that this wiki split rather prematurely. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:18, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Do we really need to consider the Japanese names here? I mean, they should definitely be noted, but this is an English wiki. Grouping the enemies based on their Japanese names would just cause more of a headache. 00:23, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick, @TheDarkStar, and @Waluigi Time, then what do you think about the Mario Party ones? I think we should merge these before making another proposal. -- FanOfYoshi at 00:48, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Merge the Mario Party ones with Bullet Bill. They don't home in. TheDarkStar 00:49, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

But, should that be done prior to a proposal? -- FanOfYoshi at 01:05, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

I don't see why a proposal would be necessary to split an enemy that doesn't even act like a Missile Bill. TheDarkStar 01:07, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

You misunderstand. I said if it should be merged prior to a proposal for everything else, or should be merged along with the proposal. -- FanOfYoshi at 01:11, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

As Alex95 said above, it would be near-impossible to make a proposal here that isn't ridiculously overwhelming when it comes to options. TheDarkStar 01:14, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Hmmm... You're right! It should be cut to less options. -- FanOfYoshi at 01:19, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Not just at the time, the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. clearly show that their position on the Super Mario Bros. 3 Missile Bills hasn't changed, with them again not giving them a dedicated box and stressing how they are Bullet Bills, just with the capability of making U turns. Conversely, the Bull's Eye Bills have their own box in the pages dedicated to New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Ultimately, if we keep the previous Bullet Bills capable of changing direction in reaction to the player here, it's just for convenience, since the first mainly red Bullet Bills that reacted to Mario were introduced in Super Mario Bros. 3 and we want to show how the Bull's Eye Bills came as an evolution of preexisitng concepts. If the Super Mario Pia might still be considered a case of following the names strictly, after the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. it's clear that Nintendo in Japan doesn't absolutely consider the Bull's Eye Bills the same as the Super Mario Bros. 3 Bullet Bills.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:05, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed. -- FanOfYoshi at 12:32, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Also, see Kuromame, which do not keep their name in there, and have a new one, based on its appearance and behavior. -- FanOfYoshi at 12:33, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Aside from Kuromame though, most everything in that kept their names and classifications they had at the time, hence the Kyodai/Biggu/Dai/Deka thing when in all but the Cheep Cheeps' case, they're pretty clearly the same thing, or at least the same concept. And these, aside from the MP ones, are definitely all the same concept. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:31, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

So you mean that you support merging the Mario Party ones? -- FanOfYoshi at 13:33, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

As has been said, that doesn't need a proposal as it is obviously a different thing, honestly more comparable to Mad Bullet Bill. I've seen gameplay, and Bowser shoots them towards the player, which may have been initially misconstrued by someone as them homing in. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:35, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

No, SMB3 Missile Bills' turn-around gimmick isn't the same concept as Bullet and Bulls-Eye Bills' constant chasing. If they had some vertical position alignment in relation to Mario's position, then I'd be convinced they're homing, but they're not. They just switch directions when they pass Mario, and only once. SmokedChili (talk) 14:22, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Sunshine ones act like the SMB3 ones, except they don't give up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:13, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

You keep saying that, but it ignores the fact that by that logic any homing Bullet Bill in 3D Mario games (horizontally at least) would also act like SMB3 M. Bills, which I said are debatably separate from B. Bills - at best, to add. But it's not just U-turns, you could also get creative and try to make them go in circles and even figure 8s, but that's more of a testament to their tracking abilities. They're actually closer to SM64 B. Bills, where the tracking traits really originate from. Mario acting as a trigger to turn around is nowhere close to chasing down Mario at sight. SmokedChili (talk) 16:22, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Because at the time, in JP, they weren't separate, but they are now. Not being separate before does not bar them from being separate later, as shown by Bouncing Bullet Bill. The vanishing act in SMA3 is also really not relevant, because loads of SMW2 enemies had new behaviors, like Piranha Plant actually eating the player character and whatever was going on with the Pokey situation between Spiked Fun Guy and Needlenose. It's actually quite possible that them being separated in JP later was inspired by them being separate in Western depictions earlier. And obviously, it would be impossible to have them "home in" in SMB3 believably like they do in the later games, as sprite rotation on the NES is utterly impossible. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:12, July 16, 2019 (EDT)

Don't forget what I wrote: the U-turning Bullet Bills of Super Mario Bros. 3 still aren't separate from the Bullet Bills according to the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., the first Bullet Bills that change direction in reaction to Mario and are acknowledged to be a separate enemy in that book are the Purple Bullet Bills from Super Mario Sunshine. This is interesting, as the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Sunshine didn't list the various Bullet Bills but rather had them grouped in the same box, showing again that the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. didn't just copy-paste what was said in the Nintendo Official Guidebooks of the time, reinforcing the lack of distinction seen in the Super Mario Bros. 3 case.

Just to clarify a further point: I'm not necessarily against keeping the previous enemies in this page to show how the Bull's Eye Bills came from preexisting concepts, I just want to avoid passing them as the same entity while, even according to more recent sources, the process that brought to the current Bull's Eye Bills was a gradual one, with the previous entities not necessarily being already Bull's Eye Bills.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:28, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Hmmm... If another proposal is made, it should be cut off to these options:

• Merge Missile Bill and Yoshi's Island iteration into Bullet Bill
• Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration and the Yoshi's Island iteration to Bullet Bill
• Just merge Missile Bill into Bullet Bill
• Just merge the Yoshi's Island iteration into Bullet Bill
• Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration into Bullet Bill
• Just Split Purple Bullet Bill
• Split Purple Bullet Bill while merging the Yoshi's Island iteration to Bullet Bill
• Don't do anything

The Mario Party ones would be a standalone, since they need to be merged before another proposal, as it would be against the previous proposal. -- FanOfYoshi at 11:23, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

That's still too many. Really, any proposal about this subject would have far too many options and overwhelm everyone who wants to cut up this page. TheDarkStar 11:28, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Also, Missile Bills may not be different from Bull's-Eye Bills in Japan, but this is an English wiki. It's all nice and okay to acknowledge the SMB3 Missile Bills not being different from Bullet Bills in Japan, but organizing a page based on the Japanese names when they're separate in America, even being named Missile Bills in the SMA3 guide, is, frankly, ridiculous. TheDarkStar 11:34, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

It's subjective about wether it's ridiculous or not. -- FanOfYoshi at 11:36, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Nintendo is a Japanese company, so Japanese material takes precedence over English one when there are contradictions like in this case, especially because Missile Bills comes from the Prima guide, from the material we have Nintendo of America exclusively used Bull's Eye Bills to refer to the current Bull's Eye Bills.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:41, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, some of those can be further nixed (for example, I think it's safe to assume the "split Purple Bullet Bill" options would be unpopular and if anything could merge with the Bullet Bill article - if any of them should be split in their own article, it's the original Missile Bill, and even that is admittedly tenuous and would cause confusion), and to be clear, you mean Missile Bill and the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration to be the same thing? Also, to answer Alex95's question: it kind of goes both ways since going with localizations all the time can still be needlessly convoluted (for example, Sky Troopa when it's clearly a Koopa Paratroopa, Flospy Fish when Super Princess Peach calls it a Cheep Cheep, etc.). We're not factoring the Japanese names just because they're Japanese, but because it happens to be the language of origin the majority of the time, which is the case for Bull's-Eye Bill. The same treatment should be expected for Western developers. That said, name changes can still happen over time, but at least it's not due to translation differences, which is the most common reason. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:01, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty, "I think it's safe to assume the "split Purple Bullet Bill" options would be unpopular and if anything could merge with the Bullet Bill article", what about Guided Bullet Bill? -- FanOfYoshi at 13:25, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

I honestly think that should be a separate issue since we already have enough "proto-Bull's-Eye Bills", though I'd say that if Purple Bullet Bill merges with Bullet Bill then it makes sense to do the same to Guided Bullet Bill. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:29, July 17, 2019 (EDT)

Since that was being asked elsewhere, if a proposal were to be made, I don't think it makes sense to go into combinatorics, it would be just Split the predecessors and Do nothing. We either want this page to deal exclusively with the Bull's Eye Bills that were introduced with New Super Mario Bros. Wii or we want to cover their predecessors as well, at which point it makes little sense to include some but not others (the Mario Party 8 red Bullet Bills don't need the proposal, someone with knowledge of the game can just merge them already in the appropriate page).
In any case, unless someone else comes up supporting the idea to be stricter in the coverage of this page, I think the proposal would be overkill, at best I can just group the enemies that came before in the Predecessors section and that's it.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:38, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

I believe we might be able to reach a middle ground between moving all and moving none (again, I feel that about-facing is somewhat unique behavior that can potentially return as its own Bullet Bill variant separate from modern homing ones), but if the specifics on that are going nowhere then maybe an "all or nothing" situation is needed in order to proceed. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:07, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

I think having a "predecessors" section would be overkill, I think we can just say "New Super Mario Bros. Wii introduced the modern Bull's-Eye Bill." Also worth noting is the situation it appeared at in NSMBW, being unique to a bonus level lacking the "normal" Bullet Bills, and unlike SMA3, being the main feature of said level. In SMB3 and SMS, they appeared alongside normal Bullet Bills, so treating them as a simple color variation was additionally more convenient at the time. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:52, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

How would it be overkill? -- FanOfYoshi at 18:36, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Determine how to reorganize this page

Template:SettledTPP Template:ProposalOutcome So, given the above discussion, i'd like to open this proposal. This will determine how to reorganize this page. While most sources consider Missile Bill being the same as Bullet Bill, just with a different behavior (A Big Bertha/Boss Bass situation obviously), the Zen Hyakka treats them as a separate entity. 往復キラー "Oufuku Killer", which, for future references, does the same with Porcupuffer, which explicitly states that it is a Cheep Cheep, which no guide has done before, besides the Daizukan. The Purple Bullet Bill is キラー(紫) "Killer (murasaki)", which confirms them to be a separate entity. We have Guided Bullet Bill split, so why not this one? The Yoshi's Island homing ones that disappear after a couple of second are considered as a color variant, which while it did the same for the Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō, the latter two were more obvious to be definitely based off of each other.

Option 1: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same.

Option 2: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same, while the Yoshi's Island will be treated as a color variant.

Option 3: Missile Bill will be considered to be a separate entity entirely, while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same as Bull's-Eye Bill, and the Yoshi's Island one will be treated as a color variant.

Option 4: Missile Bill will be the only to be considered to be a separate entity.

Option 5: Purple Bullet Bill will be the only to be considered to be a separate entity.

Option 6: Missile Bill will be considered to be just a Bullet Bill with a different behavior.

Option 7: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be separate entities, while the Yoshi's Island iteration will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill

Option 8: Missile Bill and those Yoshi's Island red Bullet Bills will be considered to be color variation, while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 9: Missile Bill will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill, while Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be a separate entity, and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 10: Missile Bill and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the same thing while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 11: Missile Bill will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill, Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be a separate entity entirely, and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill as well.

Option 12: Literally that as well.

Proposer: FanOfYoshi (talk)

Deadline: June 7, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Split both Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill into two separate articles

1. HEROMARIO (talk) Well, why are they here????

Don't do anything

1. Alex95 (talk) - First of all: ...Wow. Second: Every instance on the article feels like a Missile Bill to me. Even if they are named differently, the Purple Bullet Bills from Sunshine and the Biting Bullet Bills from Advance 3 still act like Missile Bills.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Alex95. I see no reason to split Missile Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill just because they've gone through a handful of Japanese names when they're obviously the same thing otherwise. Purple Bullet Bills, to me, are just Sunshine's weird variant of these guys, and I don't necessarily agree with the Guided Bullet Bill split. Finally, Missile Bills in Yoshi's Island are obviously a variant, since regular Bullet Bills actually do appear in that game, and it would be silly to merge them.
3. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
4. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per my thoughts in the abov section. They all have the concept of "homing Bullet Bill" and the "U-turn Killer" was solely used once in a guidebook and likely forgotten about.

Comments

I know what you will ask me. Is this proposal really approriate with that amount of options? Well, at least, there are less options than the frog proposal before it got cut down to 3 options. -- FanOfYoshi at 03:49, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

...That's still too many. Don't just cram everything in one proposal, take it one step at a time. Mario JC 04:16, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, i guess you're right...
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by FanOfYoshi (talk).

In the scenario where Missile Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill are split, how do we account for the fact that Bull's-Eye Bill was known as Missile Bill prior to Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker? LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:12, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Prima's competence varies by guide. Remember the guide that called every type of big Bullet Bill "King Bill"? We can state that it is a mistranslation. -- FanOfYoshi at 11:11, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

@Alex95, regarding your "Wow" part of your vote, yes. I'm aware that i added a little bit too much options, and i'm aware that this discussion hasn't been settled months ago. Also, out of curiosity, what names does it gives to those in Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 in the guide? -- FanOfYoshi at 11:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

It doesn't give a name in Nintendo Power. 11:22, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick, what about your "if Missile Bill was spit, Purple Bullet Bill will be merged there" argument? -- FanOfYoshi at 15:12, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

That's an if statement. I'd prefer it not be split at all, hence where I'm voting at this juncture. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Then, should i cancel the proposal to let out the above discussion play first, rather than rushing a proposal? -- FanOfYoshi at 15:19, May 24, 2019 (EDT)

Determine how to reorganize this page, take 2

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Thursday, April 24, 2025, 15:02 GMT

The discussion above has been going on for a ridiculous amount of time, and no consensus has been reached. In Japanese sources, the NSMBW Missile Bills are the first appearance of Missile Bills, while the ones from SMB3 and SMS are simple color variants there. However, in English sources, they're separate entities.

Proposer: TheDarkStar (talk)
Deadline: August 7, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Split all

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) Second option, per my thoughts above. Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heyho aren't a comparable situation, as they are from a Yoshi game, which reused many mechanics from the first game. And it was obvious enough that they were the same enemy I.E. a callback and not a coincidence, unlike Bull's-Eye Bill, which has an overlap with every iteration of chasing Bullet Bill. We don't know of which each iteration has been based off of.
2. SmokedChili (talk) Per my comments above and some more. First, the name "Missile Bill" came from the Nintendo Power guide, which also split Kyodai Pukupuku into "Boss Bass" and "Big Bertha", which are currently merged on this wiki, so there's basis for that. Second, technical limitations of NES are no excuse for Missile Bills simply switching directions once passing Mario, and no sprite rotation is needed for believable homing behavior when there's Boos chasing Mario as an example. Finally, there are no '"pre-split" Bulls-Eye Bills'; there are only Bullet Bills with homing abilities before Bulls-Eye Bill became its own thing to differentiate them from normal Bullet Bills when those don't chase Mario.

Split only Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills

1. Waluigi Time (talk) Per my thoughts in the above discussion. I see no reason to split any of the others.
2. Niiue (talk) Per proposal.
3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per everything I have said above.

#TheDarkStar (talk) Yeah, this is probably the best option.

Do nothing

#TheDarkStar (talk) - I know I'm supposed to support my own proposal, but this is here mainly for people who want to cut up this article who haven't made a proposal yet.

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) Nope, i'd prefer it to be done without a proposal, as Mister Wu pointed out above, and as LinkTheLefty pointed out below.
2. TheDarkStar (talk) Splitting any "blinky chasy homing bullet bills" from the "blinky chasy homing bullet bill" page simply because they have different Japanese names is beyond ridiculous.

Comments

I agree with keeping everything here, with the exception of Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills, and I think others who don't want this to be split into pieces would agree with me. Could this be added as an option? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:16, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Added. TheDarkStar 19:24, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

As Mister Wu mentioned, the Mario Party 8 oddity probably could have been easily handled before a proposal since it seemed like a clear-cut case and no one was objecting to it. Just for clarification, to "split only" mean to merge it into the main Bullet Bill article, right? LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:46, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Yes. TheDarkStar 21:06, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Technically, it was sorta a color variation in the English Sunshine guide, but I stand by my thoughts that the chasy ones from before are just a "pre-split" Bull's-Eye Bill (for Japan). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:11, July 24, 2019 (EDT)

Like i said above, this one wouldn't need a proposal, and should be a standalone, with the proposal being only for the rest. -- FanOfYoshi at 01:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Also, it would still need talk to, since we still have the others to treat. -- FanOfYoshi at 04:01, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

@TheDarkStar "I don't see why a proposal would be necessary to split an enemy that doesn't even act like a Missile Bill." -- FanOfYoshi at 04:05, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

The difference being that I was specifically asked to add the option. TheDarkStar 10:39, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

@SmokedChili Again I differ you to Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō, which clearly had "pre-split" versions. To only count the YNI versions of not prior in those cases is absurd. Why should this be any different? As for the sprite rotation thing, a bullet has to travel in the direction the pointy end is. Traveling upwards at a 78 degree angle while facing flat to the side would look really weird for pointed ammunition. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

I'm sorry, but the Mario Party 8 red Bullet Bills must be fixed immediately and taken out of proposal. They are not player-seeking Bullet Bills, have no reason to stay here and we can't bind their fate to a proposal over an actual disagreement, since a consensus was already reached. Proposals should never deal with decisions that already have a consensus, as the policy states.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:48, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Another separate point: Missile Bills is not used by Nintendo of America in its directly-produced material (manuals, in-game text et al.) to refer to the Search Killers, with them rather using the unique term Bull's Eye Bills, Missile Bills referred to Search Killers was used exclusively in the Prima guide of New Super Mario Wii. As such, the Missile Bills term used to generally refer to Bull's Eye Bills in all their appearances is misleading (and it would be against naming policy if it ended up in the main page).--Mister Wu (talk) 09:33, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Naming policy specifies how Prima (generally) stands in pre-Super Mario Galaxy guides, as Super Paper Mario is the last game in the Mario series to be covered by Nintendo Power, though I'd suggest replacing the "Split only Mario Party 8's red Bullet Bills" option with "Split only Super Mario Bros. 3's Missile Bills" since SmokedChili raised some good points (and once again, Bullet Bills with that same behavior have room to return). LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:08, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

I can't really remove the option, as that would be altering other users' comments. Four people have voted there already. I added it per request. TheDarkStar 10:34, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

Mario Party 8 is overwhelmingly agreed upon, with the one "do nothing" vote being in favor of deciding through discussion rather than proposal, so I think you can use a <s>strikethrough</s>. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:37, July 25, 2019 (EDT)

I don't mean to literally put the Super Mario Bros. 3 option in its place, since they did not vote on it. Add the Super Mario Bros. 3 option as a separate header; Mario Party 8 just had no business here because it is simply not a point of contention with current info. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:49, July 25, 2019 (EDT)